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Janet
Jan. 13, 2011, 05:39 PM
MAYBE as a result of the events desribed in our recent trainwreck(s), USEA now requires a signed bill of sale before it will accept a change of ownership.

http://www.useventing.com/start.php?section=membership&id=2643


Change Made To USEA Horse Life Registration
Updated: 2011-01-13

The USEA has instituted a new policy that when transferring ownership of a horse, the new owner must submit a bill of sale within 10 days of the registration change. Transfer of ownership become effective the date that the proper forms (with required signature and fees) are received in the USEA office.

The bill of sale can be faxed to the office at (703) 779-0550, mailed to 525 Old Waterford Rd, NW. Leesburg, VA 20176, or emailed to info@useventing.com.

Changes of ownership using the online services will be marked pending until the proper paperwork is received in the office.

The new USEA Horse Life Registration Form has been updated to reflect this new policy.

The USEA is committed to providing the most accurate records possible, so please keep the USEA office informed of any changes in your horse’s registration status including change of name, ownership, and if the horse is retired or deceased.

bambam
Jan. 13, 2011, 06:18 PM
I hope they permit it with redactions because I do not think USEA needs to know the price I paid for a horse.

Kementari
Jan. 13, 2011, 06:49 PM
I couldn't possibly care less whether or not USEA knows what I paid for my horse.

My question is why they are requiring a bill of sale only for a TRANSFER of ownership. If you want to curtail fraudulent registrations, shouldn't you require a bill of sale (or some proof of ownership) for the initial registration, too?

Outyougo
Jan. 13, 2011, 06:56 PM
Please note:

The bill of sale can be faxed to the office at (703) 779-0550, mailed to 525 Old Waterford Rd, NW. Leesburg, VA 20176, or emailed to info@useventing.com. Please blackout price or any other private information you don't wish to share.

This was just changed today. Hopeully this will keep Financial transactions private.

LLDM
Jan. 13, 2011, 07:03 PM
I couldn't possibly care less whether or not USEA knows what I paid for my horse.

My question is why they are requiring a bill of sale only for a TRANSFER of ownership. If you want to curtail fraudulent registrations, shouldn't you require a bill of sale (or some proof of ownership) for the initial registration, too?

In a perfect world, yes. But there are many people who simply don't have one - esp. for horses they have had for quite some time. Nor is there any way to prove any horse is any particular horse these days - with the exception of some breed registries who tattoo or microchip.

This is NOT a panacea. BUT! It is the best we can do at this particular time and it will offer what protection that can be offered in the equine industry currently.

Nothing will stop anyone from simply doing a new registry number. But at least it will be much more difficult for a horse with a record and qualifications.

I absolutely applaud the USEA for this effort. They are doing what CAN be done and being pretty proactive! BRAVO! And Thank You!

SCFarm

VicariousRider
Jan. 13, 2011, 07:07 PM
Well said, LLDM. I am in full agreement. It's nice to see such expeditious action on the USEA's part given the recent troubles in this area.

bambam
Jan. 13, 2011, 08:13 PM
Please note:

The bill of sale can be faxed to the office at (703) 779-0550, mailed to 525 Old Waterford Rd, NW. Leesburg, VA 20176, or emailed to info@useventing.com. Please blackout price or any other private information you don't wish to share.

This was just changed today. Hopeully this will keep Financial transactions private.
Thanks for the update
Glad to hear they added that
Others may not care, but I don't really share that information

retreadeventer
Jan. 13, 2011, 08:29 PM
Hahahaha.
If you black out price, or change the document in any way without signed consent of all parties, it's not a legal document! A bill of sale is simply useless without terms of the sale wholly included. The USEA has no right to view a private bill of sale. They should develop their own transfer form and require its use. ??????

lecoeurtriste
Jan. 13, 2011, 08:46 PM
They should develop their own transfer form and require its use. ??????

Agreed...I bought a 2yo last year, and her breed registry required a signed/notarized "transfer of ownership form". Very easy to do--the seller simply included it with her papers/vet paperwork/etc.

archieflies
Jan. 13, 2011, 08:50 PM
Yeah, I think having a transfer form that both parties sign would probably be more effective. But hey, it's a start. I get what they're doing.

bambam
Jan. 13, 2011, 08:59 PM
Hahahaha.
If you black out price, or change the document in any way without signed consent of all parties, it's not a legal document! A bill of sale is simply useless without terms of the sale wholly included. The USEA has no right to view a private bill of sale. They should develop their own transfer form and require its use. ??????
The fact that the copy you send to USEA has redacted portions does not render the sales contract itself invalid

SevenDogs
Jan. 13, 2011, 09:36 PM
The fact that the copy you send to USEA has redacted portions does not render the sales contract itself invalid

Completely agree. Redacted agreements are used all the time for similar scenarios. It is still proof of transfer of ownership.

Why on earth would we want to create a separate form that no one is going to remember to get signed at time of sale and then have to track down the previous owner when they remember they need to change USEA records, when a redacted bill of sale works just as well for this purpose?

sofiethewonderhorse
Jan. 13, 2011, 10:34 PM
This is awesome! will they make it retroactive;)

(brat factored in!)


MAYBE as a result of the events desribed in our recent trainwreck(s), USEA now requires a signed bill of sale before it will accept a change of ownership.

http://www.useventing.com/start.php?section=membership&id=2643

retreadeventer
Jan. 13, 2011, 10:36 PM
Completely agree. Redacted agreements are used all the time for similar scenarios. It is still proof of transfer of ownership.

Why on earth would we want to create a separate form that no one is going to remember to get signed at time of sale and then have to track down the previous owner when they remember they need to change USEA records, when a redacted bill of sale works just as well for this purpose?

Usta has used same for YEARS. All racetracks had them as well as racing secretaries, easy to use and also available online. Much better than using a private copy of a bill of sale. It was very simple, half sheet of paper, names, horse name, numbers, signatures. Very simple and quite organized. It's not that big of a deal but it is a contract between buyer and seller and it's not really the association's business to know the agreement or require a copy of it no matter what state it arrives in. They only need to know the transaction has occurred. The terms of the transaction are none of their business. You know, privacy matters, and although there is a very good reason for proper ownership changes, which I personally agree with, I also think that good business means you respect your member's privacy. At the risk of perhaps another piece of paper. I do not see that as a huge impediment. It's just business.

BadEventer
Jan. 13, 2011, 11:26 PM
Uh Oh. I leased a horse last year. With the owner's permission I transferred him into my name with USEA so I could sign his show entries as "owner". We do not live near each other, and it would have been a hastle to send entries back and forth.

The lease has ended and I returned the horse to the owner. I had planned to transfer him back into the owner's name with USEA (not that he will ever show again - 22 years old, highly unlikely).

Of course there is no Bill of Sale and I don't own him. I wonder what it's going to take to get this taken care of.....................

eponacowgirl
Jan. 14, 2011, 12:22 AM
Uh Oh. I leased a horse last year. With the owner's permission I transferred him into my name with USEA so I could sign his show entries as "owner". We do not live near each other, and it would have been a hastle to send entries back and forth.

The lease has ended and I returned the horse to the owner. I had planned to transfer him back into the owner's name with USEA (not that he will ever show again - 22 years old, highly unlikely).

Of course there is no Bill of Sale and I don't own him. I wonder what it's going to take to get this taken care of.....................

Bill of sale for $1.

RoeVee
Jan. 14, 2011, 12:41 AM
Retread Eventer you are not correct on the redaction. Look at any public filing with the SEC, extreme redaction is done on the terms of the deals but still are legal documents. This is allowed so investors know the deal is out there without being anti-competitive in nature. Standard practice in the business environment.

I think this is a fabulous first step and applaud them for trying.

Janet
Jan. 14, 2011, 01:36 AM
Uh Oh. I leased a horse last year. With the owner's permission I transferred him into my name with USEA so I could sign his show entries as "owner". We do not live near each other, and it would have been a hastle to send entries back and forth.

The lease has ended and I returned the horse to the owner. I had planned to transfer him back into the owner's name with USEA (not that he will ever show again - 22 years old, highly unlikely).

Of course there is no Bill of Sale and I don't own him. I wonder what it's going to take to get this taken care of.....................

Technically, you didn't need to transfer him in the first place.

As long as you have the owner's permission, you can sign the "Owner" block as the owner's agent. It is in the rulebook.

RAyers
Jan. 14, 2011, 01:47 AM
Uh, this is going to be hard in most Brand Inspection states since they require the bill of sale to go to THEM for their records in order to get your brand card. And since we only get 1 brand card per animal and it MUST remain with the animal (e.g. carried whenever the animal leaves its residence outside a 75 mile radius), I hope the USEA takes a COPY of my brand travel card. My bill of sale currently resides at the state brand inspector office.

Reed

Highflyer
Jan. 14, 2011, 07:18 AM
Since it says you can fax it, they obviously don't need the original.

scubed
Jan. 14, 2011, 09:52 AM
Updated: 2011-01-13

So if they cashed my change of ownership check on January 11th, hopefully, I'm good. Though I do have a bill of sale.

LLDM
Jan. 14, 2011, 05:28 PM
Most of the WB registries will take a bill of sale OR a signed transfer of ownership form (that they provide and easily downloaded from their websites). Of course they have the registration papers too, to do the transfer.

I don't see why a copy would be a problem, there are plenty of places where the original or copy are fine - even in a court of law.

Again, kudos to the USEA for doing what can be done in a timely manner!

SCFarm

RAyers
Jan. 14, 2011, 07:32 PM
I guess my question is what constitutes a legal bill of sale? In CO the sale is supposed to take place with the brand inspector there and the bill of sale is the documented brand papers. There is no real BoS in the terms of what may be considered here. A signed transport bill also is a legal bill of sale, however to look at it, it does not look like a bill of sale as there is no agreed conditions etc. It simply identifies the animal, the owner at time of transport, and transporter. Would the USEA accept this? There is no indication of a sale but it is accepted as a legal document during brand inspection.

I know trainers who simply made up bills of sale to get documentation.

In other words, sure it is good for the USEA to have this requirement, but the reality is that the loophole is big enough to drive an aircraft carrier through. It just keeps honest people honest.

BlueRidgeEventer
Jan. 15, 2011, 02:06 PM
I guess I wonder what exactly the USEA is hoping to achieve by instituting this policy. Sure, it's a quick reaction and an attempt to prevent disputes like the recent Coal Creek ownership fiasco. But, there are several problems that I can see this new policy creating while not really preventing the USEA's potential involvement in the Coal Creek dispute.

First and foremost, the Horse Life Registration Form clearly and unambiguosly states (and has always stated) that being listed as a horse's owner in the USEA database is not intended to establish who the legal owner of a registered horse is. This absolves the USEA of ownership dispute liability.

Second, this policy does not prevent someone from registering a horse that has previously been registered with the USEA under a new name and with a new owner as if that horse has never been registered with the USEA, thus creating a sitaution where a one horse could be regsitered twice with the USEA and with different owners.

Third, lets say that a horse was originally registered as being owned and ridden by person X. Person X then sells the horse to person Y, who never fills out and files the change of ownership form or competes the horse in USEA events. Person Y then sells the horse to person Z and person Z wants to register the horse. A bill of sale between person Y and person Z does nothing to show that person X, the last listed owner of the horse in the USEA database, sold the horse to person Z. If the concern leading to this new policy is establishing that a previous owner transferred ownership of a horse to a new owner, this third scenario creates a problem for the new owner at no fault of the new owner. I suppose if the goal for the USEA to have a document on file showing that the current owner did indeed buy the horse from someone (but not necessarily the last registered owner of the horse), then this third scenario really isn't a problem.

Maybe I'm just overthinking this, but I don't see this new policy as really solving any of the potential ownership issues (i.e. who is the horse's owner). Again, yes, it's great that the USEA has decided to attempt to address the problem. But, this new policy seems a bit like a quickly conceived gut-reaction solution that maybe wasn't thought all the way through.

Kementari
Jan. 15, 2011, 03:38 PM
Even though horse registration is not proof of ownership, I think it still behooves the USEA to not be made the patsy in these ownership disputes. Just from a publicity standpoint, it doesn't look good for the governing body to allow just anyone to change a horse's record at any time.

Will it solve every problem? Of course not. I doubt we all want to pay the fees to have every eventer DNA-tested upon registration to make sure they aren't already registered under a different name (though that - registering horses multiple times - is ALREADY going on, so it isn't as if this new rule is CREATING an issue that didn't exist previously).

I do agree that, because people (or states, apparently) can be weird about their bills of sale, it would make sense to have a simple change-of-ownership form signed and dated by both parties; they could even accept the form OR the bill of sale, just to keep folks happy.

As for worries that the paperwork might not follow the horse through multiple owners? Welcome to the world of horse registration. Anyone who owns a horse who's papered with a breed registry knows that you have to fill out the proper forms (usually the back of the registration certificate, but I'm sure some breeds do it differently) when you buy or sell a horse. If at some point along the way that step is missed, the current owner can either find the last recorded owner and get things straightened out, or can't show/breed/etc the horse in question in a breed setting. (Many registries also have a "hardship" path for rescues whose papers haven't followed them.) It's not THAT hard, nor is it some sort of new concept out there in the horse world; it just requires that we adjust our thinking.

flashwhitelock
Jan. 18, 2011, 04:19 PM
what about all the OTTB's that are rescued without papers so they won't go into the breeding world. I have TB's off the track without any paperwork which is done purposefully by the breeder/owner/trainer to insure his horses are going to be used for riding, not go back on the track or into the breeding market. Do I know go back and insist he give me papers????? yeahh, right.

It still doesn't change who owns the horse in terms of legality. Yet another rule to right a wrong that does nothing.

GotSpots
Jan. 18, 2011, 04:40 PM
Oh good grief. You don't need the horse's papers to have a valid bill of sale or sales contract. (A valid bill of sale/sales contract can be as simple as "I sold Trigger to Jane Jones on 1/1/2011 for a price of 10$, signed Amy Smith"). If you don't have bills of sale in your state, use a copy of whatever it is that the state requires to transfer a horse. If you rescued a horse, every rescue I've ever seen had some sort of paperwork documenting that rescue or transfer. You don't need a separate piece of paper - whatever you have that documents you own the beast in question will be fine. If you really, honest and truly, don't have anything showing you have ownership of the horse, call and explain and I bet smoothie lady smoothies for an entire event season that USEA would be happy to work with you.

Whatever you submit, you can redact out the purchase price and other personal details. You can fax or email or scan or send a photocopy (I promise, USEA does not want or need the originals).

Of course there will always be ways for unscrupulous or fraudulent folks to try to get around this type of requirement, but it seems to me this is a reasonable, not burdensome response to help take USEA out of the middle of some of these types of ownership disputes, and to provide at least one check on someone just sending in 25$ and claiming ownership of Old Trigger.

kcmel
Jan. 18, 2011, 04:52 PM
I hope they aren't going to be too picky on the bill of sale--mine is hand-written on a page torn from a notebook:lol:.

pwynnnorman
Jan. 19, 2011, 07:55 AM
I don't understand why they didn't just create their own form. Does this rule indicate what is required content in an acceptable bill of sale, for example? Shouldn't it include, for example, not just a signature, but the names printed out legibly? Not everyone may remember that if they've just slapped the BOS together on their own. And what about dates and contact information? What if a it's a purchase with a payment plan? Does the bill of sale indicate when ownership becomes official under those conditions--or did the person drawing it up forget to be clear about that?

A standard form enables the organization to collect all necessary information to avoid issues in the future. It leaves nothing to chance (or to the professionalism or lack thereof of someone else).

While I applaud the effort behind this move, I am sorry to state that the way it has been slapped together and tossed into the realm with little or no research or planning is typical of the pervasive and embarrassing lack of professionalism behind the scenes at the national (operational) level of the sport.