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View Full Version : My use of Cavalletti schooling



spirithorse
Jan. 13, 2011, 02:42 PM
deleted

ginger708
Jan. 13, 2011, 02:59 PM
In my humble opinion this is complete poppy-cock. That horses is no more using it's self properly than a man in the moon. You would be better off letting the horse go over the cavalettis in a halter with a rope and you bareback. That horse knows more than you do on where it is supposed to be and how to use it's body over obstacles it's called instinct.

At some point you will get over your ego and your inventions and truly listen to your horses. I still contend that pressure on the nose can be just as damaging and pressure in the mouth and the uneducated rider can be hell on both.

spirithorse
Jan. 13, 2011, 03:04 PM
deleted

OrangeCat
Jan. 13, 2011, 03:10 PM
But if your method is correct, then why do you and the horse look like that?

http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg

I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't understand... :confused:

ginger708
Jan. 13, 2011, 03:17 PM
Exactly what response are you looking for people that blindly fallow you in your misguidedness. It's not just the women here that think that for lack of a better word think you are a nut. It is pretty much every text ever written about horsemanship that disagrees with you.
You have yet to put up a picture or video of you riding correctly much less riding correctly in any of your inventions. News flash you did not invent the bitless bridle it's called a hackamore. And people that jump and use cavalettis ride correctly in it all the time. And they look better than anything that you have posted.

I find it to be foolish that you keep posting rules that you, yourself cannot fallow or apply to your own riding to inform other about correctness. I think I will go out now and teach people to jump out of planes. I have read the rules for competitive skydiving so now I will invent a new parachute and start teaching people.

ginger708
Jan. 13, 2011, 03:24 PM
You do know that you can brake a horses nose by putting pressure where your bridle puts pressure on the horses face. That area of the horses face is way more fragile than the bars.

My retired horse has been used to train first responders for trailer accidents and the first part of training is not to put chains or ropes through the halter and over the nose because untrained hands can and do break horses noses. That area is sensitive fragile and the only way that a horse can take in air. It is an area to be protected not pulled on by inexperienced hands.

Reddfox
Jan. 13, 2011, 03:37 PM
Interesting that you folks insist that the back is hollow. I really believe there are those who do not understand the affects caused by a hollow back.

If the back is hollow on a horse the angles of the fore and hind legs will not be the same nor will the length of stride be the same, so the impact of the footfall will be irregular. This grey horse's angles are the same and the length of stride was the same, and his footfall was in time. The spread and height do not negatively impact the horse's ability nor hollow its back.


Again, it is YOU who do not understand the EFFECT that sitting against the motion and on the loins of the horse in such a chairseat has on the back of a horse.

I don't believe that anyone was saying that the cavalletti's alone were the cause of the hollowing - it is the horse protecting itself from the rider's incorrect position. It is amazing how closely the quintessential rendering of a horse with a hollow back mirrors this horse's back.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb249/Reddfox626/STuff/Cavallettis.jpg

Also, the idea that horses cannot achieve parallel legs with a hollow back is false...google search hollow back and you will be presented with a myriad of photos showing a hollow back, yet parallel cannon bones.

Horses can also tighten neck muscles for a variety of reasons - some to relieve bit pressure - but usually you see an over-developed under neck...You can clearly see on this particular horse that the back is hollow and the horse is raising its head and neck and even the tail is held out and tense...all showing a very tight and hollow back...the OPPOSITE of what is supposed to be occurring in cavalletti work.

OrangeCat
Jan. 13, 2011, 03:51 PM
Also, if you're responding to comments made in another thread, wouldn't it make more sense to respond there instead of creating a whole new thread? :confused:

So is the cavalletti photo a photo of you doing the "martingale experiment" you described, or is that an example of what you are identifying to us as correct riding and movement?

spirithorse
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:00 PM
deleted

ThreeFigs
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:06 PM
SH is "waterskiing" on the horse's nose over the cavallettis. The reins have plenty of tension in them between the noseband, the martingale and his hands. SH's back is rounded, his feet in front of his point of balance, "feet on the dashboard" style. No way he is taking responsibility for his own balance over the rails. He's making the horse's job harder, not easier.

The horse is tense over the neck, not relaxed as he insists. A telescoping neck allows an elastic connection over the back. This neck is not telescoping forward and downward, it is contracting upwards. It might telescope forward and downward if he wasn't holding himself up with the reins. But this "moment in time" does not show that.

SH, your "touch, hold, release" is nothing more than a half-halt, something every dressage rider becomes familiar with, though most uf us advance to implementing a half-halt with our core muscles. The release is the most important part of the half-halt. You should try it some time.

Your explanation of the use of the martingale is gibberish. It you would learn to RIDE in balance, use your limbs in harmony with the horse, not in opposition, you'd achieve the outcome you seek. Unfortunately, you are unable to see your faults, unable to see the flaws in your theories, unable to see that YOU don't ride like the pretty engravings you decorate your website with.

You, sir, are the person unwilling to learn. Learning is harder than clinging to your erroneous theories. You will never change, and will keep insisting that you have the Holy Grail of Riding and the rest of us are fools.

Whatever, Dude.

alicen
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
spirithorse wrote: If the back is hollow on a horse the angles of the fore and hind legs will not be the same nor will the length of stride be the same ... .

It is quite possible for a horse to have front and hind leg parallel movement while being hollow and moving with stiff, shortened strides.

4xhoof
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:09 PM
On another thread, there are negative posts regarding the image of my grey 'schooling' cavalletti, and with a martingale.

So in response to ideayoda (So, the grey horse caveletti clearly shows a horse which is hollow in the back and pushing out behind just as the horses he criticizes are as well. Interesting too as an aside because the FN books also shows how to use caveletti correctly...and too high and too wide causes a horse to struggle in the back, especially when the rider is behind the balance.)

Interesting that you folks insist that the back is hollow. I really believe there are those who do not understand the affects caused by a hollow back.

If the back is hollow on a horse the angles of the fore and hind legs will not be the same nor will the length of stride be the same, so the impact of the footfall will be irregular. This grey horse's angles are the same and the length of stride was the same, and his footfall was in time. The spread and height do not negatively impact the horse's ability nor hollow its back.

The height of the cavalletti being the highest point is to effect a larger range of motion in the shoulders and hips. The "pushing out behind" is not a push but rather a picking up of the lower hind leg using the entire muscle structure of the hip region. This facilitates increasing the suppleness of those muscles and the muscles in the lumbar region.

The spread is determined by the horse's natural stride. The combination used for the grey was established by the ability of the grey. This height of cavalletti is not used on a regular basis but rather incorporated into the mid-height cavalletti work so that the horse will make a pass at this height two or three times in a mixed use with the mid-height and only will this height be done once a week [if necessary].

Now, as for the martingale. Here is the answer I provided an individual who 'politely' inquired as to why I used it.

Let me start with saying that I really never liked the use of martingales because they were misused. If set lower, to much pressure on the bit and if set high, [under the throat latch as in racing] they are of no value.

Well, after I invented the bitless bridle in 1988, I discovered that the neck muscles of the horse are use to avoid the pressures of the bit. In other words, on the bitted horses that I put SB on, they would tighten the neck muscles and overbend at the poll and go behind the vertical without me pulling on them. Since the pressure in SB originates at the poll and is in ounces, I found that I needed to teach the horses to relax the neck.

At the track I discovered the racing yoke and decided to test my theory that I had created regarding how the horse uses the neck. My theory was that the horses tighten the neck muscles during the process of trying to relieve the bit pressures; and that this tightening actually blocked correct useage of the muscles over the withers and thus the shoulders were restricted and that combination actually created a hollowing of the horses' backs.

I put the yoke/martingale on and tested for placement height that would effect muscle relaxation in the neck. Well, I found that if the top of the rings are 6 to 7 inches below the throatlatch, when the horse raises its poll higher than that same measurement above the wither, it would relax the neck muscles, but from the withers forward. When this relaxation occurs you can feel the shoulders rise up and the forehand lighten. I also discovered that this relaxation of the neck 'allowed' the horse to rise its back and thus thoroughly engage its hindquarter.

So for the past twenty-two years I have been demonstrating this to riders. It works every time on every horse, if the rider is willing to 'allow' the horse the opportunity to relax and supple up.

I have found that if one 'correctly' schools bitless that the results for horse and rider are easily transfered to the bit. However, the mere placement of the bit does create some resistance in the horses' necks.

Teaching riders to 'correctly use the martingale with the bit has shown that the same affects are created, though not to the maximum results of bitless. The secret to 'correct' riding with the bit and martingale is to not have constant bit pressure but rather a touch/hold/release process, which helps the horse to maintain the relaxed neck muscles. And by the way, I was schooled this way...it is nothing new.

I have read ideayoda posts in another forum and they are incredibly informative and helpful. IF I am correct, I believe she is also a dessage dressage thus I tend to believe her thoughts about the horse being hollow.

Bitted, bitless, hackamore, rope halter: all can be painful and produce a defensive, hollow horse if use in a bad manner, with bad hands, with poor riding, poor training. Same goes for standing martingales, running, German and this version of a racing martingale.

I agree with all others in regards to rider position during the cavelleti photo photo in question. Very much a chair seat and with weight on the horses lower back. During cavelleti training, I feel that that the riders seat should be light, not seated down on the horse. You want the horses back to be able to move and raise. You do not want the horse protecting itself from a riders weight over cavelleti.
.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:11 PM
So I have to ask, WHY do you ride in an exercise saddle, knowing that it puts you wrong on the horse, making the work harder for both of you?

If this is the BEST photograph you have available to demonstrate your theories, I'd hate to see the rest of them!

Funny that so many horsemen, using "conventional" schooling, have come up with better results than yours. Yet you feel the need to reinvent the wheel. I don't get it -- but then I'm "unwilling to learn" (from you).

katarine
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:17 PM
http://www.dreamhorse.com/photos/nov/1627796.jpg

this horse is hollow all day long, with even footfalls. That took 2 seconds browsing dreamhorse to find.

If the back is hollow on a horse the angles of the fore and hind legs will not be the same nor will the length of stride be the same, so the impact of the footfall will be irregular.


That is just nonsense. Utter hogwash. the world is round, SH, your horse- is not.

ginger708
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:30 PM
So who is going to take me up on my sky-diving lessons. I promise that I will have photo stills of me up in a week if I get any takers. Oh and by the way if you all tell me i'm nuts I promise I will delete all of my sky-diving posts. And I will even buy a bitless bridle to unlock all of the secrets of the equine. Then I will teach my horse to talk like Mr.Ed and then Rocco (my horse) can take flying lessons. Ok I see that I have taken this joke to far. Now back to Spirithorse and wak-a-do theories.

naturalequus
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:34 PM
My opinion on the martingale in this situation is this:

In the photo provided (http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg), it is evident by the changes in rein angle that the martingale is in effect. Thusly, the martingale is effecting pressure on the bit/nose, which causes tension in the horse's neck and poll (leverage point). It has to, it is simply a matter of biomechanics (read: Tug of War by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann). The mouth/jaw must brace against the pressure the martingale is exerting, thus the neck must also tense and brace. Hence the outlined and tense muscle at the top of the grey's neck. It is also evident there is a lack of topline muscling directly in front of the withers of the grey. The reason being is the horse is not lifting from the BASE of the neck, which would create topline muscling in that area (or at the very least, the visual appearance of lift) via the use of said muscle. If the neck is tight and the horse is not lifting from the base of the neck, it is not possible for the back to be loose (as both areas - dorsi and neck - are intimately connected and tension in one transmits to tension in another) and thus allow for the horse to engage its hindquarters properly. The horse's tail is held up and tense as well, rather than flowing out relaxedly from the back, indicating a tense back, which is a contraindication of engagement. Furthermore, I do not see abdominal muscles really being engaged and the horse appears to be moving level as opposed to uphill. If his neck and back is not loose, supple, relaxed, his hind cannot be engaged, plain and simple.

ETA: SH there are times I do agree with your opinion (to an extent) but this is definitely not one of them. On that note, I did not realise initially the grey in the photo was yours, until this spinoff thread.

Granted, I am still a student (aren't we always?) and maintain an open mind to learning, but your martingale theory does not make sense with the basic biomechanics of the horse.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:37 PM
Thanks, 4xhoof, for preserving the original wisdom of SH for posterity.

Where did he go? He couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen, cuz the kitchen's on FIRE!

ginger, I'll sign up -- but first I want to see YOU skydive with your new parachute design, OK?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:39 PM
EXCELLENT explanation, Naturalequus! I do hope Spirithorse didn't stomp off before taking note. Very scholarly!

Reddfox
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:43 PM
:no:

waiting for the inevitable post on other forums where SH bemoans our collective stupidity and unwillingness to subscribe to his rhetoric.

OrangeCat
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:48 PM
Well, THAT was weird. :lol:

ginger708
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:51 PM
You can fallow this link to my professional drawing of my parachute design the beauty of this design if that it allows the freedom of movement so I can truly engage my body as never be for in the sport of sky diving.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=262270&id=634966563&l=9bc177dc66

OrangeCat
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:58 PM
You can fallow this link to my professional drawing of my parachute design the beauty of this design if that it allows the freedom of movement so I can truly engage my body as never be for in the sport of sky diving.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=262270&id=634966563&l=9bc177dc66

:lol:

alicen
Jan. 13, 2011, 04:58 PM
spirithorse, can't you simply have someone take a better picture? A picture that would better illustrate, rather that contradict, your rhetoric?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 13, 2011, 05:04 PM
Alicen, I think that WAS the best possible photo.

Reddfox
Jan. 13, 2011, 05:05 PM
You can fallow this link to my professional drawing of my parachute design the beauty of this design if that it allows the freedom of movement so I can truly engage my body as never be for in the sport of sky diving.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=262270&id=634966563&l=9bc177dc66

:lol::lol::lol:

ASB Stars
Jan. 13, 2011, 05:05 PM
What, exactly, is he trying to accomplish?

OrangeCat
Jan. 13, 2011, 05:12 PM
What, exactly, is he trying to accomplish?

I believe research is ongoing. ;)

From his site:

"We are seeking investor/investors to help the financial success of our scientific research clinics and the company as a whole project.

Required funding is $1.5 million dollars :eek: and a business plan is available to responsible investor/investors.{Investment will be paid back to the original investor/investors}

If the health and welfare of the horse is the most important aspect of the industry to you, the individual, then please consider this investment. The data gathered will be at the forefront of improving the health and welfare of the horse, as well as, the performance of the horse no matter the venue."

A noble endeavor. :)

ginger708
Jan. 13, 2011, 05:14 PM
In all seriousness I believe that Spirithorse desperately wants to be a good rider and to be accepted as a good rider. However this will not happen until he gets over himself. He believes that he is riding exactly as the rules that he posts states. You have to look at him as a person with a point of view is deeply schemed by his own beliefs that he is somewhat delusional. He does not see what you see. I believe that he thinks he rides just as well as the etchings and pictures of classical riders that he posts.

mickeydoodle
Jan. 13, 2011, 05:38 PM
You can fallow this link to my professional drawing of my parachute design the beauty of this design if that it allows the freedom of movement so I can truly engage my body as never be for in the sport of sky diving.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=262270&id=634966563&l=9bc177dc66


that is as funny as the pool noodle horse offering

katarine
Jan. 13, 2011, 06:03 PM
Careful Ginger, last time I advised someone they were 'deeply schemed' I earned an infraction ;). Maybe it was HOW I said it, and the places I said things were deep. Nevermind ;)

naturalequus
Jan. 13, 2011, 06:03 PM
SH I am actually genuinely confused, not to mention disappointed. Why not address the rational, honest-intentioned posts that were provided in response to your thread? Surely you should have expected some of the snark that was presented, as it is nothing new, so that is not an accurate explanation for your deletion.

EqTrainer
Jan. 13, 2011, 06:15 PM
In all seriousness I believe that Spirithorse desperately wants to be a good rider and to be accepted as a good rider. However this will not happen until he gets over himself. He believes that he is riding exactly as the rules that he posts states. You have to look at him as a person with a point of view is deeply schemed by his own beliefs that he is somewhat delusional. He does not see what you see. I believe that he thinks he rides just as well as the etchings and pictures of classical riders that he posts.

But where, where is the little whip pointing straight up? I miss seeing that little whip!

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 13, 2011, 06:55 PM
Maybe Hea.ther and SH ran away together....

ginger708
Jan. 13, 2011, 08:02 PM
That should have been deeply skewed. I have not decided yet whether or not auto spell check is an asset or a hindrance to my snark stylings.

Eklecktika
Jan. 13, 2011, 08:28 PM
www.damnyouautocorrect.com

Enjoy.

betonbill
Jan. 13, 2011, 10:01 PM
Anyone want to superimpose a photo of Dr. Klimke trotting over cavaletti with one of his horses? :yes::yes::yes:

ThreeFigs
Jan. 13, 2011, 10:48 PM
That would be a good comparison! (For everyone but SH!)

kcmel
Jan. 14, 2011, 10:07 AM
www.damnyouautocorrect.com (http://www.damnyouautocorrect.com)

Enjoy.

:lol::lol:. Great. Just what I needed. Another totally addicting time-waster.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 15, 2011, 12:05 PM
I see he expressed interest in an Oldenburg gelding with a back problem in giveaways. I bet he believes his methods will miraculously restore the horse to rideability.

Equibrit
Jan. 15, 2011, 04:47 PM
SH's hobby seems to be suing people;
https://ecf.utd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2005cv0876-163

https://ecf.utd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2008cv0581-11

http://ca10.washburnlaw.edu/cases/2007/07/06-4236.htm

alibi_18
Jan. 15, 2011, 05:22 PM
As per the court: "frivolous"!

ThreeFigs
Jan. 15, 2011, 05:26 PM
Evidently he also aspired to be President. Yikes. Fortunately for all of us, his campaign didn't get too far.

Frankly, I'm afraid to link to the website, but it's about campaign funding.

ASB Stars
Jan. 15, 2011, 06:20 PM
Not just people- the court, itself, and the people.

I suppose, being a Reverend and all, he plans on smiting them.

I call whack job on this one. :lol:

ThreeFigs
Jan. 15, 2011, 06:24 PM
Amen!

4xhoof
Jan. 15, 2011, 06:43 PM
Evidently he also aspired to be President. Yikes. Fortunately for all of us, his campaign didn't get too far.

Frankly, I'm afraid to link to the website, but it's about campaign funding.

The internet always amazes me. How did we function without it?
This from page 2 of a google search. Names are in alphabetical order ( after McCain and Paul-the major players)

http://www.politics1.com/p2008-gop.htm

Reddfox
Jan. 15, 2011, 06:58 PM
I, for one, am waiting anxiously for his self-published book.

SH has been a busy little bee...In between suing people to gain funds for his "research" and running for office, he has started the International Federation of the Horse http://www.federationofthehorse.org/IFH/ and according to some posts on barnmice, he'll be getting his judging card as well as actively competing next year. And, he's carried on quite a one-sided conversation with himself on his FB page...http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bitless-Bridle-Spirit/124806014204767?v=wall&viewas=0

Also, the back and forth here on this page are amusing. http://tackguru.com/2009/10/22/dr-cooks-bitless-bridle/

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 15, 2011, 07:59 PM
Is it happy hour yet?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 15, 2011, 08:54 PM
4xHoof, that's a better link than the one I found! Wow!

Ya think his losses in court have anything to do with his ideas about judges??!!??

DRR, it's happy hour SOMEWHERE!

Thanks, Reddfox, for the Happy Hour reading material!

alibi_18
Jan. 15, 2011, 09:47 PM
Bitless Bridle Spirit I wonder why no one comments on this page.
Please post your opinions....I believe in free speech.
9 novembre 2010, 20:02 · J’aime · Commenter


Too bad I'm not one of his 10 friends, I would have press "J'aime"!

Happy hour here! Sambuca flambée!

ThreeFigs
Jan. 15, 2011, 09:54 PM
That's funny, considering his reaction to the "free speech" that his thread inspired!

ASB Stars
Jan. 15, 2011, 10:00 PM
OK...personally, I only had to get this far...

" The exaggerated paddling legs of the new saddlebred warmbloods is distracting the judges from the reality of the failures of such action................"

in order to determine, for a certainty, that he is full of the original article.

He needs to see the real deals working, and get a clue.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 15, 2011, 10:09 PM
Is he slamming Saddlebreds or Warmbloods or both?

Gee, I can't wait to see him hit the shows! He'll be as popular as poop in a punchbowl.

kinnip
Jan. 15, 2011, 10:12 PM
rat turd in the pepper

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 15, 2011, 10:50 PM
Just ordered a tuaca lemon drop

alibi_18
Jan. 15, 2011, 10:55 PM
Just ordered a tuaca lemon drop

WoW, I've learn something on this thread! Nice drink PSJ!!!

Something usefull I mean!

Donella
Jan. 15, 2011, 10:55 PM
SH's best picture of his own riding is one in which he looks like my uncle the first time he sat on a horse at my place...clinging for dear life, grabbing at the reins, bouncing all over an inverted horse. How delusional are you SH? You come here and spew your hatred of that beautiful Portugese rider for his "horrible use of the curb rein" and yet you cannot even maintain your own balance on your little inverted horse!!?. And you are talking about rules?? About where the poll is supossed to be?? About self carriage and dressage?? Offering TRAINING advice ????!!! No offence but I honestly don't think those are things you really need to be concerning yourself with.

Mind boggling is what it is.

KrazyTBMare
Jan. 16, 2011, 01:36 AM
rat turd in the pepper

:lol: :lol:

Random!


This has been quite the entertainment!

Bit O Groby
Jan. 16, 2011, 01:45 AM
:lol::lol::lol: Doesn't seem like SH has many fans.

spirithorse
Jan. 16, 2011, 05:24 PM
I am so glad you folks have had so much fun, what a great way to start the new year.

Frivolous is what the majority of your comments have been.....:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Now just how many of you are actually willing to physcially prove me wrong by YOUR participation?

You see, the research with the eqiupment will start with me! I dare say that not one of you would be willing to go through the testing procedure. All data gathered will be peer reviewed, so how about it.

So how about it? You willing to put your name on the sign up sheet.....:eek:

Oh, and FYI, I do have two well known equine researchers who will be providing their assistance in the program.

Tah, tah.:D

dressurpferd01
Jan. 16, 2011, 05:25 PM
What's the subject of your research again?

Donella
Jan. 16, 2011, 05:39 PM
Research for what? What are your qualifications?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 16, 2011, 05:53 PM
No qualifications that I can see on his various websites.

He's hopeless. If his "research" were worthy, someone like Dr. Clayton might be interested.

I wouldn't subject my good horse (or even my worst enemy's horse) to any experimentation of SH's.

All the info on Google indicates it's best to stay far, far away from the Reverend Spirithorse.

ASB Stars
Jan. 16, 2011, 06:27 PM
I am so glad you folks have had so much fun, what a great way to start the new year.

Frivolous is what the majority of your comments have been.....:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Now just how many of you are actually willing to physcially prove me wrong by YOUR participation?

You see, the research with the eqiupment will start with me! I dare say that not one of you would be willing to go through the testing procedure. All data gathered will be peer reviewed, so how about it.

So how about it? You willing to put your name on the sign up sheet.....:eek:

Oh, and FYI, I do have two well known equine researchers who will be providing their assistance in the program.

Tah, tah.:D

How about you share the names of these equine researchers? If you are looking for public approval, that is.

I'm not sure what kind of "testing procedure" you are throwing down the gaultlet on, but if you think that there isn't anyone here to compare with you, well, that ought to make it really challenging to get a group anywhere to make your *testing* have any real validity. Not that I am actually buying into your system, or your ideas and theories.

Which then begs the question of what particular brand of religiosity you are ordained into, and by whom?

Because, generally speaking, you are one creepy dude.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 16, 2011, 06:36 PM
Just my advice. Stop interacting with this guy. He sounds like a bigger problem than a debate about rollkur.

Zugabe
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:02 PM
I'm still not sure why so many are taking the time to make fun and belittle this man. Sometimes saying nohting is more credible than shooting someone down.

You never know one's story completely....can we stop already?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:06 PM
Y'all are right. Fun's over.

spirithorse
Jan. 16, 2011, 07:59 PM
Some of you folks have continued to demonstrate you ignorance.

Especially Beasmom.....

The research are specific tests using actual equipment that will gain the data that riders, equipment and schooling methods have upon the horse.

So Beasom...why don't you be first in line after me....let the COTH gang find out how you impact your horses....?
As I stated, the data will be reviewed and FYI each test will be filmed so the riders clearly will be known.

As for my religous affiliation, that has nothing to do with the cowardly positions taken here....when we start the testing come prove yourself.....

ASB Stars
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:17 PM
As for my religous affiliation, that has nothing to do with the cowardly positions taken here....when we start the testing come prove yourself.....

I'm not sure why you would not want to share your *religious affiliation*? If you were, in point of fact a *man of God*, why would you be so cowardly as to be unwilling to declare your faith- most especially as an ordained minister?

Of course, this latest method of gaining donations- with what appears to be no hope of recouping a damn thing- could be seen as your particular version of snake oil...

spirithorse
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:23 PM
Where do I ask for donations for any form of religious endeavor?

I ask for donations for a scientific research project aimed at protecting the health and welfare of the horse. Of course the donators get nothing back in their poctets, but their horses will be the sole beneficiaries.

Religion has nothing to do with horses. I am not being cowardly, my faith is mine and has nothing to do with you or anyone else, especially since I am not preaching it to anyone.

netg
Jan. 16, 2011, 08:58 PM
The research are specific tests using actual equipment that will gain the data that riders, equipment and schooling methods have upon the horse.


What kind of equipment? What kind of data are you recording? What type of effects are you measuring.



For the record, my dad's AKC registered standard poodle is an ordained minister. They had it done online as evidence in a custody case in which my stepmother's client's ex was trying to use his being an ordained minister as evidence he was reformed. (From the same church as the poodle.)

spirithorse
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:05 PM
electronic stress and pressure sensors, gait analysis software, highspeed camera, thermography, endoscope.......etc.

ASB Stars
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:10 PM
Where do I ask for donations for any form of religious endeavor?

I ask for donations for a scientific research project aimed at protecting the health and welfare of the horse. Of course the donators get nothing back in their poctets, but their horses will be the sole beneficiaries.

Religion has nothing to do with horses. I am not being cowardly, my faith is mine and has nothing to do with you or anyone else, especially since I am not preaching it to anyone.

If religion has nothing to do with horses, in your opinion, why is your screen name "spirithorse"? Even the belief systems of the Indians, as an example, are routinely grouped into a category called...religions.

I find no proof, anywhere, that you are actually capable of correctly running a scientific study of any kind. The fact that you are soliciting funds for such an endeavor is, frankly, scary. And, I'd sure love to see the contract you are using to explain to your investors how the words "profit" and "proceeds" and "costs" are being defined.

The video of you riding a horse through caveletti only demonstrated a facility for making as difficult as possible for a horse to correctly do the exercise, let alone benefit from it. So, I am still wondering what the hell is is that you think you can bring to the table? If you understood how the mechanics of a horse work, you simply would never have done the things you were doing to that poor animal. Yet you feel compelled to point out, in vivid detail, what you think others are doing to their horses that is bad, wrong, and evil.

ASB Stars
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:12 PM
electronic stress and pressure sensors, gait analysis software, highspeed camera, thermography, endoscope.......etc.

Which you are qualified to design testing parameters, operate, and analyze data from, how?

Reddfox
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:32 PM
The research are specific tests using actual equipment that will gain the data that riders, equipment and schooling methods have upon the horse.

This sounds like a lot of variables here. What hypotheses are you testing and are you testing each separately? Where are you testing - McPhail? Galbreath? Or your backyard?

If you have tests developed, certainly you have your abstract written that you can share with us, right? I'd like to know what specific tests. Also, who will be conducting the schooling? You would need to recruit the top rider/trainers from each school of thought to properly test if correctly carried out schooling is detrimental to the health and well being of the horse. And you need numbers too - or will you be testing a single group of horses over a long period of time to see how each individual horse responds to different schooling methods and different equipment?

My feeling is that you are creating "experiments" in order to justify your own beliefs. I can't imagine that anything coming out of a study of your creation would not be skewed to show whatever outcome you are looking for.


The video of you riding a horse through caveletti only demonstrated a facility for making as difficult as possible for a horse to correctly do the exercise
Wait, there's a video??

4xhoof
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:45 PM
electronic stress and pressure sensors, gait analysis software, highspeed camera, thermography, endoscope.......etc.

Endoscope? What are you using the endoscope for? Endoscopy should be used by medical personal/Veterinarians and I think you have mentioned that you do not think highly of vets ( per other posts and threads) and have been quite negative of the general practice.

Endoscopy is also used with sedation. Animals needs to be sedated when having an endoscopic procedure. Most humans are sedated as well. Are you sedating these equines?

spirithorse
Jan. 16, 2011, 09:55 PM
The tests are design not to be done on a treadmill or force plate, as these create confined perameters.
And to date, that is where the research is being done.

I have not hamered all vets, I communicate with several and especially regarding the protocal for this research. There will be in place the personel to accomplish the task.

As for the endoscope, once again jump before you know. It is a specific unit designed for the type testing we will be using, and will be done by a qualified individual.

Reddfox
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:01 PM
The tests are design not to be done on a treadmill or force plate, as these create confined perameters.


"Confined" parameters are important in reducing variables so that you can test for one specific action or reaction.

And I didn't see any of my questions answered...care to go through line by line and give some clarity?

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:13 PM
It sounds like you watched If Horses Could Speak by Dr Gerd Heuschmann then saw Jane Savoie's tack pressure sensors and have decided you want to conduct these same experiments but in a skewed format?

spirithorse
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:20 PM
A treadmill [confined] test has its benefits, however, it does not allow for real time real world results. When you have absolute control on the testing physical environment you have a impact upon the results.

I have spent two years researching the data available on the Internet from Clayton, etc., and I believe that there needs to be a more complete protocal established for gathering data regarding the impact of rider, equipment and schooling methods used upon the horse.

I intend to be the first rider tested, that is how much I believe in the research program I have designed. It is not about who is right or wrong, it is about gathering definitive working data that will benefit the health and welfare of the horse.
The team members will be published before the research begins and there will be qualified staff.

I have designed these tests so that within the confines of controlled protocal, the horse and rider combinations will be tested over a surface that maintains the same characteristics without changing its structure, and the distance will be the same exact distance.

Computers will record the information coming from the stress and pressure sensors, the gait analysis software, the thermographic camera, which are synchronized.

A rough explanation for the tests:
1. First pass to be with the horse riderless.
2. Second pass, with the rider using normal aids, etc.
3. Third pass, with rider making small adjustments in the aids.
4. Fourth pass, if requested, will be designed for the horse and rider combination dependent upon the data gathered.

spirithorse
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:28 PM
It sounds like you watched If Horses Could Speak by Dr Gerd Heuschmann then saw Jane Savoie's tack pressure sensors and have decided you want to conduct these same experiments but in a skewed format?

Why do you make such an assinine assumption?

The tests and protocol I have designed go beyond the limitations they used.

rugbygirl
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:44 PM
This reminds me of the "research" my brother and I did in High School to "learn Chemistry"...really, we just wanted to see what would happen when we mixed various chemicals together, and were somewhat shocked by the HIGH concentrations of various acids and caustic solutions you could buy at Canadian Tire.

We had "controls" and everything, like we rinsed out the glasses we were using (in lieu of beakers) between each experiment. We had a sweet "lab" on my parents' deck, and used the barbecue as a fume hood.

We definitely lit some cool fires and got some fascinating results. We even had it "peer reviewed" because our friends often came over to help and they agreed that the results were mad cool.

It was totally Science man. Totally. We should definitely have shilled for more donations.

spirithorse, you might want to check your use of the word "investment." Investment implies eventual profit. Your proposal appears to be completely data-gathering in nature, which is definitely worthy, but data-gathering in and of itself is not profitable. You would need to create a product or idea that was patented and saleable to ethically seek "investment." What you're actually looking for is a grant, donation or some other kind of FUNDING, not investment.

4xhoof
Jan. 16, 2011, 10:56 PM
As for the endoscope, once again jump before you know.

this and the use of the word "asinine" to the other poster. I think this is why people find SH difficult and hard to support. Rather than simply providing information, negativity must be used.

Zugabe
Jan. 16, 2011, 11:25 PM
this and the use of the word "asinine" to the other poster. I think this is why people find SH difficult and hard to support. Rather than simply providing information, negativity must be used.

And there's not been any negativity towards SH???? Are you kidding?



I'm not sure why you would not want to share your *religious affiliation*? If you were, in point of fact a *man of God*, why would you be so cowardly as to be unwilling to declare your faith- most especially as an ordained minister?

Wow, taking it to the next level...You should be ashamed of yourself for ridiculing someone's religion. Looks like some of you could use a little religion....sheesh.

EqTrainer
Jan. 16, 2011, 11:32 PM
But WHERE is the little whip pointing straight up? Where?!!!

Moderator 3
Jan. 16, 2011, 11:32 PM
We're closing this thread because it's gone way off the rails...

Mod 3