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Erin
Mar. 12, 2004, 11:19 AM
Copied from the other thread:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prider80:
Question for you, Erin (the following is just an honest question...I'm not trying to be rude or start anything, I promise!) Say that we do start up a new thread about eating disorders. Why would it then be inappropriate for us to discuss [someone] as an individual? People discuss individuals all the time...but once it's on a BB, it's inappropriate? I don't really understand why we're making that leap. [She] is a well-known and admired Grand Prix rider. So what's the crime in us discussing her?

If you'd like me to move my question to its own thread, I'm happy to do so, but I'd really appreciate it (and I'll bet others would as well) if you would explain this on the board.

Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of our BB mantras is "issues, not individuals." It just seems to make threads less contentious if you talk about a problem in the general sense, rather than talking about ONE person as an example of the problem.

I'm not saying that discussing any one individual is off-limits... but I don't think it's always a requirement, and that sometimes, the discussion can be just as valuable without making it about one specific person.

As the weight issue was a tangent to the original thread, I really didn't feel it appropriate to discuss there.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:10 PM.]

Erin
Mar. 12, 2004, 11:19 AM
Copied from the other thread:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prider80:
Question for you, Erin (the following is just an honest question...I'm not trying to be rude or start anything, I promise!) Say that we do start up a new thread about eating disorders. Why would it then be inappropriate for us to discuss [someone] as an individual? People discuss individuals all the time...but once it's on a BB, it's inappropriate? I don't really understand why we're making that leap. [She] is a well-known and admired Grand Prix rider. So what's the crime in us discussing her?

If you'd like me to move my question to its own thread, I'm happy to do so, but I'd really appreciate it (and I'll bet others would as well) if you would explain this on the board.

Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of our BB mantras is "issues, not individuals." It just seems to make threads less contentious if you talk about a problem in the general sense, rather than talking about ONE person as an example of the problem.

I'm not saying that discussing any one individual is off-limits... but I don't think it's always a requirement, and that sometimes, the discussion can be just as valuable without making it about one specific person.

As the weight issue was a tangent to the original thread, I really didn't feel it appropriate to discuss there.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:10 PM.]

prider80
Mar. 12, 2004, 11:27 AM
Gotcha, thanks...I agree that the thread about [her] eq was not the right place to discuss the weight issue. Thanks for starting the new thread--I think it's a valuable issue for discussion!

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:12 PM.]

Palisades
Mar. 12, 2004, 11:41 AM
I think that comments about how horribly thin [someone] looks only serve to damage the cause those posters claim to support. Some people just have thin body types, and none of us have any reason to believe that [she] doesn't naturally fall into that group. I think criticizing her for her natural body shape is not only extremely classless, but also undermines the "positive body message" that people claim to support. Positive body image is not trying to fit your body into a weight that it does not naturally support, it's living healthy and being happy with how you look.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:13 PM.]

SweatySaddlepad
Mar. 12, 2004, 11:57 AM
How can anyone tell anything from that photo except that she looks fantastic atop that wonderful horse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Making speculation about someone you have never even met or only seen is only showing your true colors, boy must there be someone always who has a negative comment to make here about everything http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif. If what is said is known truth fine but speculation is pure and simple vicious gossip, petty gossip seems to run rampant in our sport http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Erin
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:01 PM
I posted some of this on the other thread as well, and will repeat it here...

Positive body image is great. I can remember as a kid -- up until about my sophomore year of high school -- being so embarrassed to wear shorts because I had toothpick legs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I was (and still am) naturally pretty thin... I was just REALLY thin up until I was 16. Not unheathily so... I was just a stick. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

There's no reason I should have been embarrassed of that, just as there's no reason someone who is naturally of a stockier type should be embarrassed of that.

Now, obviously, if you are actually overweight, rather than just being of a body type that is not stick-thin, then there are some legitmate health concerns. Likewise, if you are BELOW your natural body weight, there are health concerns.

It is just as unhealthy to overeat and be slightly overweight as it is to UNDEReat and be underweight. If you eat normal sized meals and you get a healthy amount of exercise, I'd say that whatever weight you are is probably where your body thinks it should be. You should have to starve yourself or stuff yourself to be something different.

I will say this, though... I had a close friend in college who was anorexic and bulemic. She dropped out of school because of it.

When I saw her at her wedding a couple of years ago, she looked terrible. She wore a strapless dress that hung on her. She almost passed out during her reception.

I don't think it's doing her any favors to pretend this isn't an issue. When your shoulder blades jut out over the back of your strapless wedding dress, this is a problem.

Of course, one of the lovely things about the psychology of an eating disorder is that if you tell someone who has one "Omigod, you are WAY too thin!", that just reinforces the behavior. In their minds, they can never be thin enough.

I'm a little touchy about this subject because I've dealt with it personally (with regard to trying to help my friend), and I know just how damaging offhand comments can be. But I also know that it's just as damaging to put on a smiling fence and pretend everything is fine, as my friend's family did while picking her up off the floor in the reception hall. "Oh! Hee hee! Too much champagne!" Yeah, right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I will say that I think she is a beautiful rider, but she looks as though she is below what her natural and healthy body weight should be. However, if there's a problem, it's her family's to solve, not ours.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:14 PM.]

Erin
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:04 PM
MB Stark, I might have misread the comments on the other thread as far as role-model-type stuff... but I don't think anyone was saying it's an individual's responsibility to "their fans" to maintain a certain body type. It's their responsibility to themselves!

I think the comment was more directed toward OTHER people holding someone up as an example without acknowledging that there might be unhealthy aspects there. Like, allowing your kid to idolize an NFL player with a drug problem. Sure, admire his football talent, but I would think a parent would also want to make sure the kid knew that using illegal drugs wasn't OK. You definitely wouldn't want your child to idolize THAT aspect of that player's life.

Likewise, you wouldn't want a child to think that he/she should try to be extremely thin if he/she didn't have that body type naturally.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:14 PM.]

arcadia
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:06 PM
I have to agree with whomever said that it shouldn't be acceptable to tell a skinny person how skinny they are when you certainly wouldn't tell a big person that they need to shed a few.
I got huge when I was having my son and it took me a long time to get rid of it after, I found out it was because of my thyroid and lack of activity. We moved to the farm, I went on meds and I dropped weight like crazy. I now have people asking me if "I am okay" or "Are you eating" or the best one "Are you losing weight safely" Jeez Louise, I eat like a pig, I just needed the thyroid medication to get me back to my fighting weight.

People can be painfully skinny for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with eating disorders, blessed with genes, illnesses such as graves, etc.
Facial hair when one is skinny is usually an indicator of an eating disorder or at the very least a deficiency in their diet, and a lack of "the monthly bill"

A good friend will come bail you out of jail....a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn..we screwed up"

Black Market Radio
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:07 PM
How would you feel if you came on here and saw people complaining about YOUR weight, and making assumptions about why you weigh what you do? I, too, am a thin person who has been accused of having an eating disorder. It's not fun. And it's not fair that people get berated for making fun of heavier people (which is not right) but it's OK to make fun of skinny people.

I know someone who is VERY thin, even gaunt in the face. Some people would think she has an eating disorder. Well, she doesn't have a disorder, she has a dietary health problem in which she can only eat certain foods and not a lot of fat. She can't have anything with any kind of spice or flavoring except salt. When you talk to her about it, she says she wishes she could pig out but she can't. We had a nice dinner one night at which she came, and the hostess made a special dinner for her. We had a broccoli chicken casserole, with cream and cheese, a yummy fruit salad with a dijon/rice vinager dressing and a Danish dessert. The special dinner for my friend was plain boiled chicken and plain steamed broccoli, both with a little salt. Seems cruel, but it truly is how she ALWAYS has to eat.

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
You have got to be the WORST Pirate I have ever heard of.
Ah, but you HAVE heard of me!

Courtknee202
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:19 PM
I am one of those painfully thin people so this topic touches home for me. I hate my weight. It's like from the neck down to my hips, it's all bones. I have a really high metabolism and no matter how hard I try I can't put meat on my bones. I have actually had complete strangers come up to me and ask me if I am anorexic. All my friends know the true me, I scarf down enough food for 3 people at a meal. I don't like any kind of weight prejudice, whether it be against overweight or in this case, underweight people.

Erin
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:29 PM
Courtney01, can I ask you something? I'd like to hear your perspective on this.

We girls know that there's a fine line between telling a friend she looks wonderful, even if she's perhaps a few pounds overweight, and telling a friend she looks wonderful when she's trying on a pair of pants that make her butt look HUGE!! Friends don't let friends buy clothes that don't look good. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree that of course it's inappropriate for someone to approach you on the street and ask if you have an eating disorder. But I guess I'm also of the mind that it's not OK to pretend that being horribly underweight is OK, just as it's not OK to pretend that it's OK to be horribly overweight.

I'm not really sure I'm expressing this well... I guess I wouldn't go up to someone on the street and say, "Geez, you need to lose 50 pounds," but I think there's a distinction between not criticizing someone and yet not tacitly approving an unhealthy lifestyle.

Am I making sense to anyone? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

SunshineGA
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:30 PM
<gasp> Look at this photo of Chris Kappler

http://www.chriskappler.com/

I wonder how he can possibly have the energy to get around a Grand Prix course?

I don't see anyone running around talking about Mr. Kappler is portraying a poor image to young men and causing them to have poor body images.

I know women in their 40's (my aunt for one) who has that body type and can eat like nobody's business. She's also had 3 children.

I am one of those "naturally" thin types. When I was a teenager people would always scoff and ask me if I was anorexic, and when I denied being anorexic, they just assumed I was in "denial" and talked about how I *had* to have been anorexic. And people who don't know me are floored when they see how much I can eat. I'm talking I can eat 2 patty melts, 2 servings of french fries, mashed potatoes, a piece of pizza, a salad loaded with cheese and ranch dressing and still have room for ice cream and cookies. People just always assume that I am thin because I am a finicky eater and vice versa.

Its not fair to place the blame on people who honestly cannot help their body weight. How can you point your finger at someone and say that they are partially responsible for how young girls feel about their body? Its like telling a big person that its their fault for giving children the image that obesity is OK (ie- Ruben Studdard, he's a big dude and people think its "cool" that hes a big dude, Chris Farley, etc.). I know I would feel like crap if I were semi-high profile or a role model of some sort that I was unethical for being thin... wheres the fruitbat people?

Member of the IHSA clique

http://community.webshots.com/user/sunshinengcsu

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:15 PM.]

prider80
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
How would you feel if you came on here and saw people complaining about YOUR weight, and making assumptions about why you weigh what you do? I, too, am a thin person who has been accused of having an eating disorder. It's not fun. And it's not fair that people get berated for making fun of heavier people (which is not right) but it's OK to make fun of skinny people.

I know someone who is VERY thin, even gaunt in the face. Some people would think she has an eating disorder. Well, she doesn't have a disorder, she has a dietary health problem in which she can only eat certain foods and not a lot of fat. She can't have anything with any kind of spice or flavoring except salt. When you talk to her about it, she says she wishes she could pig out but she can't. We had a nice dinner one night at which she came, and the hostess made a special dinner for her. We had a broccoli chicken casserole, with cream and cheese, a yummy fruit salad with a dijon/rice vinager dressing and a Danish dessert. The special dinner for my friend was plain boiled chicken and plain steamed broccoli, both with a little salt. Seems cruel, but it truly is how she ALWAYS has to eat.

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87
You have got to be the WORST Pirate I have ever heard of.
Ah, but you HAVE heard of me!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How would I feel? Well, I probably wouldn't be overjoyed, but if I were a well-known grand prix rider, then I would accept it. Why have we all become so ultra-sensitive that it's not O.K. to talk about stuff like this?

When you're in the public eye, people will talk about you. Period. The end. The rhetorical 'How would you feel?' questions don't really have a place here, in my opinion. [A well-known grand prix rider] may not be in the public eye in terms of the GENERAL public, but in the public that is the horse world, especially those of us who show on or follow the A and the Grand Prix circuits, she's as 'public figure' as they get.

I'm sorry that you've been hurt by people assuming that you have an eating disorder. But things are just different for people who are well-known. I can remember being at horse shows with my trainer as a junior and being taken aback by [the] appearance ... of other very thin riders on the circuit. It's a legitimate issue in our sport, as in any sport. Public figures with an apparent health problem become topics of discussion just by virtue of the fact that they're well-known. It's not a crime, and it doesn't make us bad people for discussing. it. I'm not saying that anyone should spread rumors or frame hearsay as though it was fact. I'm just saying it's legitimate for discussioin.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:17 PM.]

MBS
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
MB Stark, I might have misread the comments on the other thread as far as role-model-type stuff... but I don't think anyone was saying it's an individual's responsibility to "their fans" to maintain a certain body type. It's their responsibility to themselves!

I think the comment was more directed toward OTHER people holding someone up as an example without acknowledging that there might be unhealthy aspects there. Like, allowing your kid to idolize an NFL player with a drug problem. Sure, admire his football talent, but I would think a parent would also want to make sure the kid knew that using illegal drugs wasn't OK. You definitely wouldn't want your child to idolize THAT aspect of that player's life.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was what was said. I am not sure how to read it .

Coreene, generally speaking, I agree with you. She does not have a responsibility per se, but IMO one has to consider her fans...young, teenage girls in particular, who may already be concerned with weight/body image issues, and then think about what [her] appearance translates to them: If SHE is super-skinny and winning grands prix, that's a further affirmation to them that super-skinny=cool, good, whatever

I don't think [a rider] has to consider her fans when dealing witht this issue.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:18 PM.]

prider80
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Courtney01, can I ask you something? I'd like to hear your perspective on this.

We girls know that there's a fine line between telling a friend she looks wonderful, even if she's perhaps a few pounds overweight, and telling a friend she looks wonderful when she's trying on a pair of pants that make her butt look HUGE!! Friends don't let friends buy clothes that don't look good. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree that of course it's inappropriate for someone to approach you on the street and ask if you have an eating disorder. But I guess I'm also of the mind that it's not OK to pretend that being horribly underweight is OK, just as it's not OK to pretend that it's OK to be horribly overweight.

I'm not really sure I'm expressing this well... I guess I wouldn't go up to someone on the street and say, "Geez, you need to lose 50 pounds," but I think there's a distinction between not criticizing someone and yet not tacitly approving an unhealthy lifestyle.

Am I making sense to anyone? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Makes sense to me! It's an interesting double standard in our society...obesity is the last acceptable prejudice.

Vandy
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:36 PM
I too was extrememly skinny when I was younger. Erin, I can relate to your embarrasment about wearing shorts - I HATED my long, skinny toothpick legs when I was a teenager, and covered them up at all costs. I was one of those who ate like a pig - anything I wanted and lots of it! - but just couldn't gain weight. It drove me crazy when people asked if I had an eating disorder. About the only place I felt comfortable about my weight was in the equitation ring, where my build was considered perfect...I'm sure there are plenty of skinny riders out there who don't binge and purge to get that way, just as there are many overweight riders that eat like birds and have slower metabolisms.

Now that I am older, my metabolism has become more "normal". In fact, at 5'11" and 170 I could stand to lose about 20 pounds!

Sissy
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:37 PM
I am overweight and I sure know it... I don't need anyone pointing it out to me. However, as a friend, being supportive of a healthy lifestyle is very different. I've been on weight watchers and have lost about 1/2 the total weight I need to get off so far, so I'm doing something. But rather than have someone tell me I look fat(or sticklike for others) in some clothes.. I wish folks would express it differently... Like you would look better in circle skirts, or another style might be better suited to your body type. Then if they see me on the sidelines eating the big C (chocolate) they might, for instance, offer me some of their fruit for a snack or something like that. Supportive, not put down. Kind of hard I know, but usually on either side folks are way touchy about weight, I have never heard of anyone who thinks they are at a good weight. So lets all support healthy eating http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nothing could be finer than to be in Carolina!

Anyplace Farm
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:45 PM
I think people who are overweight who complain or comment on someone being thin just hate the fact that the thin person is just that..thinner than them.

It has always amazed me how people think it is OK so say, "Wow, you are so skinny." I want to say back to them, "Wow, you are so fat." If being thin isn't a 'positive body image' by our fat society's standards then why is it considered OK or a compliment to say "Wow, you're skinny."

Since more people are fat in the US than thin, seems to me it should be quite normal for me to respond, "You're fat."

People who are overweight should really worry more about what they are eating and clogging their arteries with rather than what those of us who are thin are eating.

Put the fries, the sugar, the sodas and the pizza down and then come talk to me.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

SunshineGA
Mar. 12, 2004, 12:47 PM
Don't forget that thin people still have to worry about clogging their arteries... being thin isn't the cure all end all for not clogging arteries if you are naturally thin.

My b/f's lil bro is pushing 6' and weighs 135 on a heavy day and has high cholesterol.

Member of the IHSA clique

http://community.webshots.com/user/sunshinengcsu

prider80
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anyplace Farm:
I think people who are overweight who complain or comment on someone being thin just hate the fact that the thin person is just that..thinner than them.

It has always amazed me how people think it is OK so say, "Wow, you are so skinny." I want to say back to them, "Wow, you are so fat." If being thin isn't a 'positive body image' by our fat society's standards then why is it considered OK or a compliment to say "Wow, you're skinny."

Since more people are fat in the US than thin, seems to me it should be quite normal for me to respond, "You're fat."

People who are overweight should really worry more about what they are eating and clogging their arteries with rather than what those of us who are thin are eating.

Put the fries, the sugar, the sodas and the pizza down and then come talk to me.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a good point--and a real double standard...

RugBug
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anyplace Farm:
I think people who are overweight who complain or comment on someone being thin just hate the fact that the thin person is just that..thinner than them.

It has always amazed me how people think it is OK so say, "Wow, you are so skinny." I want to say back to them, "Wow, you are so fat." If being thin isn't a 'positive body image' by our fat society's standards then why is it considered OK or a compliment to say "Wow, you're skinny."

Since more people are fat in the US than thin, seems to me it should be quite normal for me to respond, "You're fat."

People who are overweight should really worry more about what they are eating and clogging their arteries with rather than what those of us who are thin are eating.

Put the fries, the sugar, the sodas and the pizza down and then come talk to me.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really hoping your post was sarcastic, but somehow I don't think it was.

I'm not jealous that thin people are thin. In fact, the toothpicks that stay that way by not eating are just sad to me. I am jealous of the toothpicks who eat anything and everything and stay thin. And then a whole bunch of 'em sit around judging the overweight folks, not giving their incredible metabolisms the credit they deserve...or realizing that an overweight person may be eating very healthy, but has a slow metabolism and thus has to eat far less.

And yes, it is societally acceptable to be skinny. There is not a negative stigma attached to it. You don't have to deal with someone automatically thinking you are lazy, a slob, less intelligent, lack self-control. You don't have as much to worry about in being paid less for the same job, being passed over for a deserved promotion, etc just because you are overweight. Skinny folks don't have to deal with not being looked in the eye or ignored as often. If you know any overweight people who have lost significant portions of weight, ask them how their experiences have changed once they lost the weight. It's surprising and shocking.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

MistyBlue
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:15 PM
What about if someone is winning GP's, is wildly popular in the sport and is naturally tooth-picky? If younger riders start idolizing her thin physique is this GP rider REQUIRED to then eat a ridiculous amount of unhealthy fatty foods to boost her weight to make her more acceptable to people who watch her ride, see her in magazines and cut her up on chat boards? Or should she be termed by the masses as "someone to look up to for her talent, but not her body style?" As someone who grew up naturally bone-thin and couldn't have gained weight unless someone put rocks in my pockets...I'm sort of offended by this attitude. Years ago I knew MANY people (male and female) who were naturally pretty skinny. Who today would be considered "suspicious" of having a disorder. Most likely because back then kids played outside all day long running around like lunatics and not eating fast food instead of these days when kids are only outside during "organized" sports and eating McD's on the way to their sport, then vegging in front of a computer screen, video game or TV for the rest of their time. Now that the majority of people are considered "overweight" in this country, everyone jumps on the thin people with words like "disorder" and "unhealthy" and "mental issues."
An eating disorder is NOT from public figures being thin. It's from within, not without.
It's not healthy to have an eating dosorder, it's not healthy to be obese. Anywhere in between is fine and dandy. There is NO ideal weight for the masses. Each individual is different. And each individual has a wide range of body size they can comfortably have and be healthy with. Nobody should have to worry what a few of the public might do to themselves if they see what you look like and you're healthy. Sheesh, talk about the loss of personal responsibility. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I just don't get why it's okay to tell someone in public or on a BB that they're "too skinny, must have a disorder" and not "too fat and need to stop eating junk." Unless we live with each person and watch their habits 24/7 (not going by rumors and gossip) then how anybody looks is none of our business.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

Courtknee202
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anyplace Farm:
I think people who are overweight who complain or comment on someone being thin just hate the fact that the thin person is just that..thinner than them.

It has always amazed me how people think it is OK so say, "Wow, you are so skinny." I want to say back to them, "Wow, you are so fat." If being thin isn't a 'positive body image' by our fat society's standards then why is it considered OK or a compliment to say "Wow, you're skinny."

Since more people are fat in the US than thin, seems to me it should be quite normal for me to respond, "You're fat."

People who are overweight should really worry more about what they are eating and clogging their arteries with rather than what those of us who are thin are eating.

Put the fries, the sugar, the sodas and the pizza down and then come talk to me.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really hoping your post was sarcastic, but somehow I don't think it was.

I'm not jealous that thin people are thin. In fact, the toothpicks that stay that way by not eating are just sad to me. I am jealous of the toothpicks who eat anything and everything and stay thin. And then a whole bunch of 'em sit around judging the overweight folks, not giving their incredible metabolisms the credit they deserve...or realizing that an overweight person may be eating very healthy, but has a slow metabolism and thus has to eat far less.

And yes, it is societally acceptable to be skinny. There is not a negative stigma attached to it. You don't have to deal with someone automatically thinking you are lazy, a slob, less intelligent, lack self-control. You don't have as much to worry about in being paid less for the same job, being passed over for a deserved promotion, etc just because you are overweight. Skinny folks don't have to deal with not being looked in the eye or ignored as often. If you know any overweight people who have lost significant portions of weight, ask them how their experiences have changed once they lost the weight. It's surprising and shocking.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I deal with people staring at my shoulders because my clavicle bones stick out and I have pencil thin arms no matter how much I lift weights to get them to look more normal.

I have a friend who is overweight and you know what? I am jealous of her!! I wish I could be that weight. Instead people shoot me wierd looks because I "always look sickly" or some other unwanted comment such as that. I know I have a high metabolism, and I don't like it. I'd trade it in a second.

Skinny people have problems finding clothes too believe it or not. I go to the mall, and buy something in extra small, and it's still too loose. Very frustrating.

I don't think girls should look at [a rider] and say "Wow I want to be like her so I need to be skinny". They should want to RIDE like her, yet still be themselves, whatever weight they may be. And to whomever said (I believe it was on the other topic) that average people don't know they can't be like Britney Spears, when she first came out, I think every girl in my school went out, got their navel pierced, started wearing their hair in pigtails, and putting on belly shirts.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:24 PM.]

Mosby
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:18 PM
Geez louise... don't a good portion of these posts belong on some feminist BB or Oprah's BB or something? Maybe Dr. Phil? If y'all are going to talk about weight, can you please make it interesting and keep it related to horses?

FYI - I was one heck of a skinny kid and I have to say, I feel my thinness did get me more rides and ribbons in the eq ring than some of the larger, but probably equally as talented kids I rode against. I also got a lot of positive feedback because I was skinny - I used to roll my eyes, but I sure do miss the comments now!

[This message was edited by Whoa There on Mar. 12, 2004 at 04:43 PM.]

prider80
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
What about if someone is winning GP's, is wildly popular in the sport and is naturally tooth-picky? If younger riders start idolizing her thin physique is this GP rider REQUIRED to then eat a ridiculous amount of unhealthy fatty foods to boost her weight to make her more acceptable to people who watch her ride, see her in magazines and cut her up on chat boards? Or should she be termed by the masses as "someone to look up to for her talent, but not her body style?" As someone who grew up naturally bone-thin and couldn't have gained weight unless someone put rocks in my pockets...I'm sort of offended by this attitude. Years ago I knew MANY people (male and female) who were naturally pretty skinny. Who today would be considered "suspicious" of having a disorder. Most likely because back then kids played outside all day long running around like lunatics and not eating fast food instead of these days when kids are only outside during "organized" sports and eating McD's on the way to their sport, then vegging in front of a computer screen, video game or TV for the rest of their time. Now that the majority of people are considered "overweight" in this country, everyone jumps on the thin people with words like "disorder" and "unhealthy" and "mental issues."
An eating disorder is NOT from public figures being thin. It's from within, not without.
It's not healthy to have an eating dosorder, it's not healthy to be obese. Anywhere in between is fine and dandy. There is NO ideal weight for the masses. Each individual is different. And each individual has a wide range of body size they can comfortably have and be healthy with. Nobody should have to worry what a few of the public might do to themselves if they see what you look like and you're healthy. Sheesh, talk about the loss of personal responsibility. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I just don't get why it's okay to tell someone in public or on a BB that they're "too skinny, must have a disorder" and not "too fat and need to stop eating junk." Unless we live with each person and watch their habits 24/7 (not going by rumors and gossip) then how anybody looks is none of our business.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We can 'what if' about this all day long. But I have to disagree with you about how an athlete looks is none of our business. Like I said in my looooooong post, she's a well-known, public figure in the horse world. She looks, if you've ever seen her in person, unhealthy. As a fellow athlete in her sport (even if I'm not nearly of her caliber) there is nothing wrong with me, or anyone else, commenting. I'm not hurting anyone and I'm not spreading rumors. I'm just commenting. Lighten up!

prider80
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whoa There:
Geez louise... don't a good portion of these posts belong on some feminist BB or something? If y'all are going to talk about weight, can you please make it interesting and relate it to horses?

FYI - I was one heck of a skinny kid and I have to say, it feel did get me more rides and ribbons in the eq ring than some of the larger, but probably equally as talented kids I rode against. I also got a lot of positive feedback because I was skinny - I sure do miss the comments now!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed! Riding is a sport...our horses have to be healthy, fit and athletic to perform...we should too!! But since we have animals much larger than us as our partners, there are a number of overweight riders in our sport. I'm not bashing overweight people, and I do recognize that many bigger people are actually very healthy...so that's what we need to strive for here. To be at a healthy weight, whatever that may be, and to maintain a fitness level where you can be a forgiving, accurate, fit partner for your horse.

Erin
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:37 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming it's not possible to naturally be teeny-tiny skinny. Courntey01 is someone for whom that's the case.

I will say, though, that I don't think my anorexic friend looked ANYTHING like a "naturally" skinny person. And she was not hospitalized or anything like that. She was walking around and working and functioning.

Maybe it was because I knew her at her "healthy" weight... but I know lots of skinny people, and I've never seen anyone who looked like she did.

I just don't think we should put on blinders and pretend that looking that way is fine. If it's natural for you and you're actually healthy, hey, no prob. Appearances can be deceiving.

But if I were to slap a picture of my friend in her wedding dress up here, I wouldn't think it would be doing any favors for everyone to ooh and ahh and say, "Oh, she looks great!" She doesn't. That's a fact. It would still be a fact if she didn't have an eating disorder. She looks too thin.

I'm all for "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." But I'm not for "if you can't say anything nice, lie."

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 11:52 PM.]

tyedyecommando
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:40 PM
Like I said in the other one, there are good and bads of carrying a few more/less pounds in riding. Both body types are suited for riding and both body types can be effective used to the riders advantage.

A larger rider is going to be better suited for a larger, stronger horse because they can use the extra weight and size to their advantage. This rider however would not be as successful on a hotter more senstive horse because those extra pounds would magnify every move they made and the horse would respond accordingly.

The smaller rider would most likely be more successful on the smaller more sensitive horse because they would have a better ability to move with the horse and go with the flow than the larger rider. The larger stronger horse would be a difficult ride though because it is going to take much more body effort to get the same response the larger rider got with less effort. Typically, the smaller rider is also harder for the horse to toss off too.

This is not to say a small rider will not be able to successfully ride a larger horse or vice versa, but it will be much more difficult.


I am also going to say to someone who is obese or has an eating disorder (not those naturally thin ones) to think about what these conditions will do to your body not now, but 10, 20 years from now. There are many medical conditions that can be cause by not properly caring for you body that these types of people need to be aware of, its not for the sake of vanity.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:26 PM.]

SunshineGA
Mar. 12, 2004, 01:42 PM
Well this is ridiculous, I had a nice post that I thought through and when I clicked to the thread to make sure I included everything, my reply window disappeared.... just lovely.

The skinny stigma:

For "overweight" people: laziness... for "thin" people: lack of energy. (I do agree people think overweight/heavier people are lazy, but I am not one of them)

For "overweight" people: less intelligent?? for thin: ummm less intelligent (we worry more about what we look like apparently)

For "overweight" people: lack of self-control... well skinny people have the same stigma... if you automatically think someone is anorexic or bulemic, would you believe that they had self-control? willpower? confidence?

Jobs: Have been turned down a job over a friend who was heavier and looked "healthier" (although I think this was a borderline sexist choice... I have been working since 12, this is friends 1st job...shes a ditz... they started dating after she got hired... etc)

I've had a lot of "overweight" or heavier (because most of them are not overweight just stockier!) people not look at me in the eye or avoid conversation with me. I have also had stockier people snap at me and say "Why do you care, you're skinny!" or "Why do you need to work out? You're skinny!" (um I want to get in shape...) or "You wouldn't understand, you're skinny" and the list goes on. And most of the time I am not even referring to my weight or anyone elses.

People talk about how skinny people and negatively, I've heard it, experienced it.

On either end of the spectrum theres stereotypes, its not a one way street.

Member of the IHSA clique

http://community.webshots.com/user/sunshinengcsu

ClemsonGraduateRider
Mar. 12, 2004, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prider80:
Public figures with an apparent health problem become topics of discussion just by virtue of the fact that they're well-known. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what really gets my goat. How exactly do you define that [someone] has an apparent health problem because she looks skinny? Skinny people are not always unhealthy!! And by apparent health problem I realize you here are insinuating an eating disorder, but it could very well be a thyroid problem or something completely unrelated. Or *GASP* it could be NOTHING AT ALL.

This is what gets me, as many people have said before, it's not okay to be overweight and it's not okay to be skinny but how many people do you know who are what everyone seems to want to consider "healthy" weight. And who decides that anyway?? I have two other girls living in my house, two are what I would consider overweight, my guess is that they wear an 8 or a 10. Now I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for that but you know what, I could care less how much they weigh because I am interested in their personalities. I don't judge people on how much they weigh nor would I expect someone to judge me on how much I weigh. However, I am the one that people assume has an eating disorder if I don't scarf down a huge meal everytime someone mentions food because I am a size 0. I hate it just as much as they would hate someone reprimanding them FOR eating.

Why can't everyone just get over how everyone else looks. Who cares. I don't care what weight LC is, nor do I care what weight anyone else on this BB or in the horse world is. And quite frankly I think it's ridiculous to talk about it. We should be happy with the way we look and should stop sticking our noses in everyone else's business (i.e. weight).

ETA - I totally agree with Anyplace.

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 05:26 PM.]

Pocket Pony
Mar. 12, 2004, 02:04 PM
In high school, I was borderline anorexic, and when one guy in class commented to me that I looked like I was losing weight, I was so happy - it fueled my desire to keep losing more. But when I went off to college, the issues that I was having in high school were gone, and I ate and I gained 30 lbs! My dad commented when I came home from summer that I was chubby, and I was. I started exercising, lost 15 of the lbs, and have pretty much been the same weight ever since.

I have a "magic number" in my head of a weight that I don't want to go over. That is about 5 lbs more than what I weigh right now. When I was going through my divorce last year, I gained 8 lbs over my magic-number weight. I didn't even realize it until I went to put a pair of breeches on and they were too snug in the waist. I hadn't been weighing myself, I'd been eating a lot of junk food, and not exercising as much because I was so stressed trying to get my sh!t together.

When I saw that number on the scale, I immediately started cutting out the junk food. No more chips and soda every day at lunch. No more Taco Bell multiple times per week. No more 2 beers every night. And I started walking the dogs more, and I joined a gym.

I am now at my ideal weight, I think. Sometimes I wish I could be skinnier, or that I weighed less. But when I think about that, I also think that I need to be healthy for riding, and if I was to starve myself to reach a stupid number, then I wouldn't be strong enough to ride and ride well.

So I just make sure that I eat right (although I do love chocolate and sweets!), and exercise every day. And I'm healthy and happy.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 11:52 PM.]

Albion
Mar. 12, 2004, 02:06 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I certainly think anorexics have 'self-control' - a little TOO MUCH self-control. It takes an incredible amount of SOMETHING to override your body when it gets to the point where it's cannibalizing your muscles & organs to compensate for starvation. A lot of people with eating disorders (and self-mutilators, too) tend to be total 'type A' perfectionists.

There's a difference between skinny & healthy (even VERY skinny & healthy - there was a girl in my HS who had a thyroid problem, and she was REALLY thin. But she looked healthy. A bit ... odd, but healthy) & unnaturally skinny & UNhealthy. I went through a bout of very severe, very acute depression. I basically stopped eating, not because I wanted to, but because I was too depressed to get out of bed & food didn't seem that important. When I DID eat, it was miniscule amounts - I'd have one cheesestick and be full, or a quarter of a half of a sandwich. I have no idea how many calories in a day I was consuming, but it was probably in the 300 - 400 range, if that.

I dropped 25 lbs. in two months, going from 125 to 100. I've ALWAYS been an hourglass, not chunky, but I have a chest, I have hips. I went from a D cup to a C cup. I was really angular & bony where I'd never been angular and bony before. I went from having to wear size 8 pants (on my hips) to wearing a size 4 - on my (rather wide) hipbones. But you know, there are people that look like that naturally. You know WHY all my friends were horribly concerned about me & WHY I looked unhealthy? It wasn't my weight. It wasn't the size of my pants. It wasn't really the way my body looked.

It was my skin.

I was literally turning grey. I have one picture of myself from that period, at my 19th birthday dinner - I was 'coming out of it', and putting weight on, but I can still see how sallow and NOT normally colored I was. But my mum & my best friend swear up and down that my skin had a greyish cast. My hair was getting dull. My fingernails (never really well taken care of, anyways) were like eggshells.

Yes, there are LOTS of people that are naturally QUITE thin. Some people have fast metabolisms, some people are religious about diet & exercise, some people have medical conditions. But people that are UNHEALTHILY thin look it. I have no idea about the people mentioned on this thread, but people who are NATURALLY (or through a good diet/exercise program) very skinny are NOT going to be turning grey, their skin is NOT going to look like paper, their hair is NOT going to be dull all the time, and their body will NOT be growing a heavy coat of fuzz to keep warm, since there are no fat reserves.

I would never, ever say to ANYONE that 'they must be an anorexic', unless (and this is a big unless) they were a friend of mine, and I noticed symptoms like the above. I'm not jealous of 'skinny minny' people (sure, I wish I could fit into a size 4), because I know I just don't have the body type for it. I'm a very healthy weight for my height, and I have a chest that many a skinny girl has told me they would kill to have. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's a trade-off. But there ARE symptoms of being unhealthily thin, and it's NOT how much you weigh.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

nycjumper
Mar. 12, 2004, 02:21 PM
Albion-
You are absolutely right. When I was in college, I struggled with an eating disorder my freshman year. It wreaked havoc on my body. My hair fell out, my skin was pasty, my nails were breaking & I constantly was fighting a respiratory infection. I also did serious damage to my teeth (when you're throwing up a lot, the stomach doesn't do great things to tooth enamel http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif) It was very apparent that I wasn't healthy. Not b/c of my weight but b/c of everything else that was happening to me.

I have lost a fair amount of weight recently (I'm almost as skinny as back in the college days). This time around however I'm healthy & my skin & hair have never looked better. I'm not doing it this time to be skinny, I'm doing it to get in shape & be a better & more effective rider.

I guess my point is that you CAN'T judge someone solely based on weight. You need to look at all the other warning signs. And trust me, they are there if someone has a disorder..

Albion
Mar. 12, 2004, 02:33 PM
Precisely, nycjumper. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I am a healthy weight. I *could* wear a size 2 or 4 again, if I wanted to live the life of an ascetic. Some people have it naturally, but I am just NOT naturally that small.

I eat healthy. But you know, life is too short (in my opinion) to deny myself pleasures like GOOD food. Which, in all seriousness, is what I would have to do to get down to a size 4 (which, weight wise, would be BELOW my target/healthiest weight. By about 10 lbs.) If I'm going to eat something that's got oodles of fat in it, I am NOT going to waste it on a crappy cheeseburger from McDonald's. No siree. I am going to have myself a sensibly-sized portion of au gratin potatoes made with Gruyere cheese and HEAVY cream. I've noticed Americans have a tendency (in general) to eat until they're stuffed. I don't eat until I'm stuffed, ever. But I'll be damned if I'm going to deny myself delicious food in the quest to be something I'm not.

I eat balanced, sensible, nutritious meals, in smaller portions. I feel satisfied after eating. I may not be a size 4 when I die, but I will die knowing I have chowed down on the best damn goat cheese Europe has to offer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't understand why there has to be so much venom surrounding weight/body types. There are unhealthy extremes on both ends. But I am NEVER going to be a size 0 'stick', and chances are that size 0 girl will NEVER have an hourglass figure. Who cares? We're all different, and as long as YOU are really healthy, that's all that matters. Body types go in & out of cultural vogue, something's always going to be held up as 'perfection', and it's usually different. I have the coveted body type for the '90s. The 1890s. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

sdfarm
Mar. 12, 2004, 03:35 PM
Albion, couldn't agree more. HEALTHY is all that matters. You can't judge that by the numbers on a scale... only a doctor can give you those numbers.

I have struggled with eating healthy and keeping my weight down my whole life, and it's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I also know very thin people who work equally hard to try to keep weight on and gain strength. I'm a Clydesdale and my best friend is a Thoroughbred http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. I guess we're just from different bloodlines http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

subk
Mar. 12, 2004, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prider80:
Public figures with an _ apparent health problem _become topics of discussion just by virtue of the fact that they're well-known. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what really gets my goat. How exactly do you define that someone has an apparent health problem because she looks skinny? Skinny people are not always unhealthy!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just one comment. There is not one of us here who if we had a skinny horse in our care would not consider that body wieght to be a health management issue. Regardless of whether that horse was "naturally" skinny, or just skinny "fit." Those two examples might be "healthy" examples but that would not keep me from having that horse's weight in the forefront of my thinking when trying to make good decisions for his care. And healthy or not my decisions are going to be affected by that horse's wieght.

I am not suggesting that people are horses here, and I realize that the "care" of other people are not our responsibilty but sometimes we get so d#$% politically correct we loose sight of reality.

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 11:55 PM.]

ClemsonGraduateRider
Mar. 12, 2004, 03:59 PM
subk - while I certainly understand your point, I do not agree that it applies here. Horses are not able to make decisions on their own about when, where and what they eat. It is more analagous to a child and if we were talking about children I would certainly agree with you.

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

RodeoHunter
Mar. 12, 2004, 04:03 PM
But the difference is horses don't have mental weight issues like people do.....it's almost impossible to help people with serious eating disorders because their self-image is so warped that it doesn't matter what you tell them; their behavior will only change if they come to terms with it on their own.

**Member of the Ocularly Challenged Equine Support Group**

subk
Mar. 12, 2004, 04:31 PM
My point is not that we can or should do anything about some elses weight. BUT it is fair to assume that someone who is obviously underweight DOES have a weight issue regardless of whether they are healthy or not.

My 10 year old daughter has a weight issue. She is thriving and healthy but she does have problems and/or issues because she is under weight. (Like being cold all the time for one.) Whether the details of those issues are yours or anybody elses business is not my point.

Just My Style
Mar. 12, 2004, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is what really gets my goat. How exactly do you define that someone has an apparent health problem because she looks skinny? Skinny people are not always unhealthy!! And by apparent health problem I realize you here are insinuating an eating disorder, but it could very well be a thyroid problem or something completely unrelated. Or *GASP* it could be NOTHING AT ALL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I am so annoyed with some of the comments pertaining to specific people because, frankly, it is none of anyone's business.

I think it is fair to discuss weight in relation to riding, but please people- leave names out of it. Hasn't Erin already spelled that out for you? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 11:55 PM.]

Albion
Mar. 12, 2004, 05:02 PM
I had a decent self image when I was in high school (surprisingly!), but when I got to college & got a little older, something just 'clicked' in my brain & I've never been able to see myself objectively. There's a reason my personal nickname for myself is 'the little piglet porkchop'. I got severly chastised by my boyfriend one night when I told him that if he tacked a little pink curly tail to my rump, I could do a fair imitation of a pig. oink oink. But that's something I have to change for myself. I know deep down that I'm NOT fat, that I'm NOT a heifer, that I'm a pretty normal person - that I'm at a good weight for myself & as long as I maintain that, I'll be fine. I know that the little extra pudge on my tummy or on my thighs doesn't mean I'm hideous. I know it's normal. But all rational thought goes out the window when I look in the mirror.

I've never had a god honest eating disorder, although I was definitely starving myself when I was depressed. That wasn't a function of wanting to be thin, it was a function of not wanting to get out of bed ever again & just NEVER being hungry. But ... I do remember what it felt like to have people say, 'Gosh! You're really thin!' Was it surprise because I'd dropped a large amount of weight (for me) in a short period of time? Was it because I looked like death was going to come knocking at any minute? Was it because I looked good? I have no idea, but I do know that it was positively THRILLING. I was thin, really, truly, honestly THIN! I felt beautiful, I felt skinny, I looked like I had when I was a freshman in high school. I didn't notice the grey skin, the dull hair, any of that. I just noticed that all my pants were falling off my hips, and that I was THIN! I'm very lucky that I DIDN'T develop some sort of eating disorder after I started gaining weight again. I can honestly say that as awful as I felt in the rest of my life, I was absolutely euphoric about my weight & the size of my pants. That's the closest I've ever come to feeling how some anorexics must - when someone comments on how much weight you've lost, and you're just gleeful, because you KNOW you can lose more & 'look even better'. The only comment that shocked me was when a close friend of mine asked, in all seriousness, if I'd gotten into crack, cocaine, or meth with one of my coworkers at a racing barn. My eyes about bugged out of my head. She later said it was because I had very dark circles under my eyes, was a skeleton, and was grey. It's the one comment that didn't illicit some sort of personal joy for me. I sat back and went, 'I look like a BASE HEAD? My god.'

I don't think comments from strangers help when there is a medical issue. If it is a diagnosed medical issue (like thyroid problems), the person probably already knows ... and if they don't, you certainly can't drag them off to a doctor. If they have an eating disorder, comments from strangers will just reinforce the behavior - even comments that aren't uttered in a flattering way like, 'Oh, you look great!'. That's up to the persons FRIENDS and FAMILY. There are a lot of mental disorders that are very tricky beasts to deal with, and I really do think it's best left up to those who are close to the person. Well-intentioned strangers can do a lot more harm than good.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

diKecnadnuS
Mar. 12, 2004, 09:25 PM
I have been very hesitant to post on this topic...but, I finally decided I would...

I've been on both sides of this issue...I've had REALLY BAD eating disorders and I've also been OVER WEIGHT...

I must say that I kind of wish that people had noticed or cared about my weight problems when I was fighting my anorexia and bulemia. My friends all knew that I ate 1/4 of an apple for breakfast and a salad with no dressing and a few teeny tiny pieces of chicken for dinner (I usually threw it up)...I could count on one hand the number of friends that had seen me eat a meal for 3 years. I didn't get my period...you could see my ribs through my clothes...I weighed under 90 lbs...my dance teacher required I drink a can of slim fast 45 minutes before class or competitions because otherwise I'd pass out...etc etc etc. But you know the strange thing...I WAS WINNING. While my riding seemed to have more flaws in many areas and I didn't have much strength I was consistently champion with 2 of my horses.

At the same time I've been over weight as well and I know how hard it was for me when people talked about my weight behind my back. Ironically, much of the time that I was overweight I was completely secure with my body and felt I looked great.

Now that I'm in college I'm at a healthy weight...but mind you I have to watch my weight like crazy to make sure I don't lose any or gain any (my busy schedule makes this especially difficult bc I miss meals a lot of the time)...my weight probably fluctuates about 5-7 lbs on a regular basis (I know that is VERY UNHEALTHY bc I'm under 5ft)...but I have noticed the less I weight the weaker I am...and the better I ride--maybe because I don't have the strength to do unnecessary things or I don't have the strength to interfere with the horse (this isn't such a factor now that I have been maintaining a healthy weight).

But, I really feel for people when I notice that they have eating disorders--and while I like to just pretend I don't know that a girl on my hall throws up 3 times a day at the same times...I know that pretending she is naturally skinny isn't fair to her either.

Anyways...to make a long story short, while I see the concern many have with talking about people who could potentially have eating disorders--it isn't something to simply brush under the carpet. I just thought that I should share since I am a rider who has been on both ends of the spectrum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"While girls schools are notoriously wild, the true party-hearty girl attends Hollins" ~The Preppy Handbook

-Adult Pony Rider Clique-
-Disgruntled college student clique-
-Short stubby leg clique-

~*Smoke Rise Charlie*~(R.I.P.) ~*Asgard Rhinestone Cowboy*~ ~*Caught Napping*~ ~*Sundance Kid*~

diKecnadnuS
Mar. 12, 2004, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by subk:


Just one comment. There is not one of us here who if we had a skinny horse in our care would not consider that body wieght to be a health management issue. Regardless of whether that horse was "naturally" skinny, or just skinny "fit." Those two examples might be "healthy" examples but that would not keep me from having that horse's weight in the forefront of my thinking when trying to make good decisions for his care. And healthy or not my decisions are going to be affected by that horse's wieght.

I am not suggesting that people are horses here, and I realize that the "care" of other people are not our responsibilty but sometimes we get so d#$% politically correct we loose sight of reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I kept myself like I keep my pony then I would be obese...he's border line on really way too fat--but I think he's much cuter that way...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"While girls schools are notoriously wild, the true party-hearty girl attends Hollins" ~The Preppy Handbook

-Adult Pony Rider Clique-
-Disgruntled college student clique-
-Short stubby leg clique-

~*Smoke Rise Charlie*~(R.I.P.) ~*Asgard Rhinestone Cowboy*~ ~*Caught Napping*~ ~*Sundance Kid*~

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 11:56 PM.]

HARROLDhasmyheart
Mar. 12, 2004, 10:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diKecnadnuS:
I have been very hesitant to post on this topic...but, I finally decided I would...

I've been on both sides of this issue...I've had REALLY BAD eating disorders and I've also been OVER WEIGHT...

I must say that I kind of wish that people had noticed or cared about my weight problems when I was fighting my anorexia and bulemia. My friends all knew that I ate 1/4 of an apple for breakfast and a salad with no dressing and a few teeny tiny pieces of chicken for dinner (I usually threw it up)...I could count on one hand the number of friends that had seen me eat a meal for 3 years. I didn't get my period...you could see my ribs through my clothes...I weighed under 90 lbs...my dance teacher required I drink a can of slim fast 45 minutes before class or competitions because otherwise I'd pass out...etc etc etc. But you know the strange thing...I WAS WINNING. While my riding seemed to have more flaws in many areas and I didn't have much strength I was consistently champion with 2 of my horses.

At the same time I've been over weight as well and I know how hard it was for me when people talked about my weight behind my back. Ironically, much of the time that I was overweight I was completely secure with my body and felt I looked great.

Now that I'm in college I'm at a healthy weight...but mind you I have to watch my weight like crazy to make sure I don't lose any or gain any (my busy schedule makes this especially difficult bc I miss meals a lot of the time)...my weight probably fluctuates about 5-7 lbs on a regular basis (I know that is VERY UNHEALTHY bc I'm under 5ft)...but I have noticed the less I weight the weaker I am...and the better I ride--maybe because I don't have the strength to do unnecessary things or I don't have the strength to interfere with the horse (this isn't such a factor now that I have been maintaining a healthy weight).

But, I really feel for people when I notice that they have eating disorders--and while I like to just pretend I don't know that a girl on my hall throws up 3 times a day at the same times...I know that pretending she is naturally skinny isn't fair to her either.

Anyways...to make a long story short, while I see the concern many have with talking about people who could potentially have eating disorders--it isn't something to simply brush under the carpet. I just thought that I should share since I am a rider who has been on both ends of the spectrum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"While girls schools are notoriously wild, the true party-hearty girl attends Hollins" ~The Preppy Handbook

-Adult Pony Rider Clique-
-Disgruntled college student clique-
-Short stubby leg clique-

~*Smoke Rise Charlie*~(R.I.P.) ~*Asgard Rhinestone Cowboy*~ ~*Caught Napping*~ ~*Sundance Kid*~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i completley agree with you, and i also know exactly what you mean. i'm kind of hesitant to post this...but whatever. i struggle with (borderline) anorexia, and it's no picnic. and i, like you, wish that more people either noticed or cared. sure, some friends have noticed, but once they "find out" they stop caring. just like that. i guess in highschool it's hard to care about a thing like this, especially because it's a fact of life.

my trainer makes me eat before i ride, and if she finds out that i haven't, i have to get off. in the middle of the lesson. it's quite embarrassing, but i guess she has a point. after so long, it's hard to do well on a horse without eating. i'm not trying to contradict you, i'm just saying, in my case at least.

i guess that a lot of people like to discuss, and gossip, about eating disorders. for people that haven't been through this hell and back, it's something to talk seriously about, shake their heads, and get on with life. it makes me extremley frustrated when, like you said, people just "brush it under the carpet."

i'm starting to ramble on, and seeing as this is something that i could easily talk about for days on end without running out of stories, personal experiences, and just "stuff," i'm going to stop and let other people have their shot at this.

* * * * * * * *

"if riding were only blue ribbons and bright lights, i would have quit long ago."

bounce once if you believe in diaganols!

i &lt;3 my ponies!

ponies are small horses. small horses are big ponies. big ponies are monsterous minatures. so a minature horse is the same as a pony is the same as a horse, right?
http://community.webshots.com/user/crazypony14

Weatherford
Mar. 13, 2004, 04:33 AM
What makes having had an eating disorder (I starved myself in college - and it wasn't until a BF told me he was afraid I was anexoric that I realized that I was) is that years and years of yo-yo dieting/starvation and, not even binging (I have never been a binger) plus having been extremely active in those days - running three miles a day - means that I can't lose weight normally. It is virtually impossible to speed up my metabolism to the point where I can truly "lose" the weight. I can get fit - I may be able to turn some of my fat back into muscle - but, frankly, I am too old and too busy to go back to the college routine of not eating and running every where I go.

If you yo-yo, it WILL be harder to lose as you get older - that has been proven. And some people NATURALLY weigh more than others - heavier/denser bones, long torso - short legs, more muscular - all point to heavier people.

When I was a tthe peak of my aneorexia, I weight 145 pounds. I am 5'8" - at the time, I wore what is now called a size 3 - I know because I gave my 5'2" neice a gorgeous cashmire - herringbone formal coat that I wore during those days. She is lean and tiny, a marathoner, and said it was a little too small for her... too long, too... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I LOVED the feeling of my hip bones and shoulder bones sticking out. I KNOW it wasn't healthy, but I still remember that feeling so NICE. And I was NOT thin enough, ever.

Having lived both sides of the fence, I can guarentee people don't take fat people as seriously as thin/skinny.

Enough of my ramblings....

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MissCapitalSplash
Mar. 13, 2004, 04:34 AM
I haven't been around much but feel that I should post on this issue.
I'll come out and say it: I am bulimic. I'll admit that now, which is a huge step. But I didn't do it to be thin. Its not about the food, its not about being thin, thats the issue I am seeing crop up in this thread. Its about looking for control and self confidence and all the right things but in all the wrong places. In my case, it is/was the bottom of the toilet bowl. No matter how long or hard I look down there: IT ISNT there. I'm just starting to face this\. Oh, and having this hasnt made me thin. It's messed my body up so much that it has no IDEA what it is/is supposed to be doing. I have a constant sore throat. My skin is icky. My hair is dull. Period? VERY irregular. And the thing is, I am BETTER than I was. I am in therapy, on meds for major depression. Do I still have my days? hell yes.
I didn't CHOOSE this, I didnt consciously think this. I wanted CONTROL in a hectic life, I wanted relief. Ironic, because that isnt what I got. Instead it got out of control. Thats the same reason the self-mutilation (cutting) started. RELIEF and control. Did I get it? Well, thats a little different because yes. And today I am in the mind frame of "cutting is good, Im not going to stop, you cant make me stop." Thats just my mindset for today. Other days I wake up and say "what the HELL am I doing to myself?"
As far as how it affected my riding. Well, it sure as hell didn't make me a BETTER rider. Some days my mind was so spaced out I could barely ride. Other days I just didn't feel like riding. I could honestly say that the depression/ed/si kept me from riding.
But now I am on the upswing. The meds are starting to help. I no longer get intensly angry. I eat and keep down one-two NORMAL meals a day now. I AM getting better. I can eat a small serving of ice cream and not feel like the world is coming to an end. I dont have to eat the whole half gallon, I dont have to puke it up.
And how has getting better HELPED my riding??
IMMENSLY. I have more strength. More drive, more willpower. I have a better attention span. I dont feel so dizzy anymore.
Do I have a long way to go? Yes! But I am at least 50% better than I was 4 months ago. And maybe someday I will beat this. But the scars will always be with me.

Now as far as image and riding. People STILL tell me I am too fat to show the eqs. Which is why I dont. I am 5'7" and 135 lbs. I can say that now without wincing.
Trainers tell me I am too chunky. And it gets me, everytime. But ya know what, people will continue to make judgements about others because they dont understand. People look at me and doubt that I have/had an ED.
I guess my point is that you NEVER KNOW. You also dont know how detrimental your comments might be.
And the reason Im talking so openly about this? If I can stop ONE girl from shoving her fingers down her throat after a meal, then GOOD. It didnt help my riding, didnt help my confidence. It hurt it. And I regret it fully. But now I have to live with the consequences. I have hurt my body. And not to mention that I Doubt that I will ever eat a meal without thinking "Get rid of it, now."

What people need to understand is that eating disorders are seldom chosen. I doubt girls look at [someone] and think "I MUST become anorexic so that I can ride like her." They might think "If only I could be thin like her" and then they find themselves spiraling down.
I think young women need to learn to accept and love their bodies, and outsiders need to mind their own business. Unless you are that person, you cant really make judgements.

Ok, this is long and pointless, but I just had to say SOMETHING on this topic.

If riding were all blue ribbons and bright lights, I would have quit long ago.
~George Morris

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 15, 2004 at 11:57 PM.]

Dancing Lawn
Mar. 13, 2004, 04:35 AM
Subk, your daughter may be cold all the time, because she's thin, but I could easily stand to lose 25 pounds, and I'm always freezing. Even in summer, I wear sweatshirts, and I sleep under 2 duvets. I keep my house at 82f, in winter, because if I don't, I can't feel my fingers, or toes, and my nose is always frozen. I have been dieting for most of my life, get tons of excercise,(I defy anyone to come out here, and suggest that I'm lazy) and eat well-balanced meals. And yes, I've been tested for thyroid. You can't always go by what you see. I'm fit, I'm strong, I'm healthy, the rest I just have to live with.

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com) updated Feb 14/04
If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

Weatherford
Mar. 13, 2004, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now as far as image and riding. People STILL tell me I am too fat to show the eqs. Which is why I dont. I am 5'7" and 135 lbs. I can say that now without wincing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

135 is NOT HEAVY for someone who is 5'7" - especially if you are riding and are muscular! I would bet you are long in the torso and have chunky thighs? Right?? I would bet you are beautiful!! ANd EFF all of them that say you are too heavy for the Eqs - NOT SO!!!!

You don't KNOW how MAD that gets me!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider
Mar. 13, 2004, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diKecnadnuS:
If I kept myself like I keep my pony then I would be obese...he's border line on really way too fat--but I think he's much cuter that way...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My pony is much cuter that way too, but anyway http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

Parade
Mar. 13, 2004, 07:37 AM
I am so hesitant to post on this thread. But after reading Wetherford's post I thought I would use myself as an example of a heavier person who could never be small and thin.

At age 13 I had a growth spurt and went from a size 3 to a 9 in like 3 months. But 15 I was 5'7 and 155 lbs. At 18 I was 5'8 and 160, a size 14. They did a fitness day at school and hooked us up to a machine that ran electrical currents through the body to find out the fat ratio. I was @ 17% body fat. For an 17 yr old female that was the low side. I was a size 14 and only had 17% body fat. I thought then I was a fat cow, my best friend was a size 7. Basically I was 2 times her size, but I looked heathier, fitter than she did.

Fast foward, I am 30 this year and I am a size 16, in 12 yrs I have only gone up 1 dress size. My goal is to be a 14 again. To alot of people that might seem big, but on me, on my frame, it is perfect. But I could never be 160 lbs again without loosing muscle. I would be happy at 175 or 180 lbs. Why??? Because my frame and muscle structure doesn't allow me to get smaller than that unless I DO starve myself, and I wont do that (Love food to much)

A perfect example -
I work out at the gym 3 days a week and ride my horse 3 days a week. I have a 4 yr old son who I have to keep up with and work a full time job.

At the gym my personal trainer is constantly amazed at my strength. Yeh, I have a little layer of fat around my middle, but not much. But when I work out with her she constantly comments on how much stronger I am than the other women who she trains. My max. bench press is over 260 lbs and I can do the free weight leg press at almost 500 lbs. How many women can do that? It is a double edged sword, Along with the strengh to DO that I have muscle mass. I am built like a Mac Truck and I can be proud of my strength and health, and still be embarrassed because I will never be a small woman. It is heriditary, I build muscle like a guy.

My horse is a 17h TB who is also built like a Mac Truck. The first time I got on her my old coach said "I am glad to finially see someone on her back who fits her" I didn't know how to take that, Parade is MASSIVE! I didn't worry about it. But when we are together we work because I DO fit her.

I don't know what I am trying to say here. I guess that just like some super thin people can be healthy and fit so can some of us heavier people.

SORRY I WAS RAMBLING!

But here are some pics of us - You will have to forgive the quality we pulled them off a camcorder.

Parade and I goofing off. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/93072797/93073644XhKSGI)

Us again (http://community.webshots.com/photo/93072797/125067579ROvhqn)

MistyBlue
Mar. 13, 2004, 09:05 AM
Dancing Lawn...you too huh? I'm another "always cold" person too, LOL! Has nothing to do with weight or lack of it...it's an iron deficiency that causes it in my case. Slow blood, no iron in it. No blood to the extremities makes them cold. I take iron sulfate and have been able to nip the cold problem with it. I'm not toasty like the rest of my family is all the time, but now in winter I can walk around the house without 3 layers on, LOL! Funny part is, I don't get cold outside. Even in single digit temps I'm comfy outside all day long. Probably due to lots of polartec fleece layers and the fact that I'm moving around and working a lot. I only get cold indoors. Try the iron sulfate, you could have the same problem I did.
Parade...awesome bench press weight! I'm not even close to that and I weight train religiously. I can leg press the same as you, but the upper body strength isn't there. My max in the bench is 150 lbs for short reps and boy do I feel those! I can't wash my hair afterwards, can't lift my arms that high, LOL!

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

Parade
Mar. 13, 2004, 09:16 AM
Misty Blue... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Well, you know, they say a woman's strength is in her legs. I know alot of ladies that can do the leg presses close to that weight, but jaws do hit the floor when I bench press. I get a kick out of it, kinda like the satisfaction of watching men's faces when I do that, makes up for the fact that I am a big girl. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There is some sense of self worth when I can go "Yeh, I am a big girl, but I am strong and not just extra weight." It makes up for having to watch the men drool over the model types.

Now, if only I could get rid of my middle! I will blame that one on having a child. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Really, the thing is we all have to find out what is right for us and our body styles. I personally have to learn to love myself the way I am, and that is the problem I think alot of women of every size have.

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be" - Andy Adams

GatoGordo
Mar. 13, 2004, 09:28 AM
Subk, I would have to disagree very slightly with you. You're right, a lot of people on here seem to look at horses who are fit, fit, fit or just have high metabolisms and comment that they need more groceries. Phoenix is an example of a horse who is a very hard keeper. FW has had him for several years. Mark and Phinny get the same amount of food, which is a significant amount of good-quality stuff, including lots of sunnies and flax. To put it bluntly, Mark looks like he sits on the couch in front of the TV drinking beer and eating potato chips all day, which he doesn't. Phinny looks like he goes behind the barn and puts a hoof down his throat. Last summer, FW showed me that you can see space between his 'thighs', something I've never seen on any other horse. Yet the groceries are poured into him, he sees the dentist on a regular basis, lives outside 24/7 with large quantities of hay usually available in the winter. Even in the fall, when he was being ridden several times a week and hunted, he looked runway-model-thin to my eyes. Therefore, I have taken the cue from Allie to stop worrying about the fact that his ribs can be seen. That horse simply is NOT going to be more than a size 4 or whatever analogy you want to use. He is happy and healthy, but if he were a human we might think he was anorexic. Just some thoughts.

"The lyingest, thievingest slave in all of Rome . . ." "Oh, you mean Pseudolus."
Eventing Yahoo In Training http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin
Mar. 13, 2004, 09:42 AM
GatoGordo, I don't mean to pick on you... I'm just using your comment as an example, but several people have stated the same idea.

I really DON'T think that's a good analogy to draw -- that a "hard keeper" horse is like someone with an eating disorder. Anorexia/bulemia is NOT just being "naturally" thin.

I think it IS good to look at horses and realize that they come in all shapes and sizes -- from the hard keeper to the "air fern." And while we can do our best to plump up the hard keeper or slim down the air fern, at some point you have to realize that Nature has just built certain horses certain ways, and you're not really going to be able to change that.

I think we'd all have conniptions if we knew someone who was feeding a horse a handful of hay a day trying to get that "tucked up" racetrack look! That, in essence, is what someone with anorexia is doing to themselves.

There IS such a thing as being naturally thin or naturally heavy. But we have to realize there's a distinction between people who are naturally and HEALTHILY that way, and those who go to unnatural extremes to get that way by either drastically over- or under-eating.

I would bet Phinny has a great coat with dapples, a gleam in his eye, and great muscle tone. You could probably pick up a horse at New Holland who's the same size and weighs the same, but is a couple hundred pounds below its ideal/natural weight and has a crappy coat, is lethargic, worm-ridden, etc.

Size and weight aren't always the true indicators of health. You have to look at the big picture. And there are GLARING differences between people who are naturally slim and those who have eating disorders.

GatoGordo
Mar. 13, 2004, 09:58 AM
That's fine, Erin. I'm not sure what I was trying to say either, actually, other than that, no, not everyone considers a skinny horse to be unhealthy. You're right, it was a very bad attempt to make sense. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think what I was trying to say is that if P. were a human, people might think him to be anorexic, but he's not. Here's one of the skinniest Phinny pics I could find:
Shiniest horse contest pic (http://www.fairweather-farm.com/randompics/barn072803/contestantshinyhorse.jpg)
He has more muscle now, but I think I will always have a bigger butt than him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MistyBlue
Mar. 13, 2004, 10:08 AM
Parade, boy do you have it right. Women's strength is in their legs! That's one of the first things I teach in self defense classes. (why I weight train, to keep from getting beat up too much, LOL) Hitting is fine, but for best results do it with your legs. Hit the ground, roll on your side and kick like a mule!
I really wish I had the upper body strength too, but I'm what's considered wiry and can't get the bulk for the major weights. (lost my chest just fine though, go figure)
The stomach...*sigh*...don't sweat it. I'm a tad "anal" about my stats and my last check up had me at 9% body fat. My ab routine is 6 days weekly, with 500 on my light days and 1000 on my heavy days. Almost all Roman's with weights and hanging with weights. If it weren't for the "baby pouch extra skin" you could bounce a quarter off my abs. 6 pack and everything. My doc told me except for surgery, that flap ain't going anywhere. So it stays. I may consider having a zipper installed in it for a built-in fanny puch though. Might as well use the darned thing, right?

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

Sparky22
Mar. 13, 2004, 10:12 AM
Weight in either direction is not a problem in riding until it affects your ability to ride.

If you need huge, harsh bits to slow down because you are not strong enough, and big spurs to make the horse go because again, you don't have the strength then it's a problem! Every horse is different, some need spurs and a stronger bit BUT every single horse a person sits on? Also.. if you are so down that you pass out relatively regularly from riding, I'd say that it's an issue.

If you are heavy so that it is making you unbalanced so you flop on the horses back, hit their mouth, etc, then that too is affecting your riding.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

SBT
Mar. 13, 2004, 10:35 AM
Dare I show myself on this thread after inadvertantly spinning the other one in the wrong direction? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

I certainly was not trying to be mean or nasty, or to personally bash the person who was the subject of the thread. What I wanted to do was share some honest (albeit brutally honest) opinions. Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes honesty isn't nice. But I know I would much rather hear the ugly truth than have someone "polite" me to death. I grew up in an area of the country where "polite" and "nice" applied to everything. Two people having an arguement would do it in a "polite" manner. The result? You were always left guessing about how people REALLY felt.

I live in NY now, and things are much different here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif People here will usually tell you like it is, whether you want to hear it or not. For me, personally, I have found it to be a much healthier social atmosphere. Harsh? Yes. But honest. Sometimes honesty and "niceness" ARE mutually exclusive. Not always, but sometimes. I, for one, would much rather know the truth about how someone feels.

Now, back to the topic at hand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I am 5'7' and vacillate between 135 and 140. I have a ridiculous amount of muscle, particularly in my VERY long thighs. But I have always had the ability to look at muscle and see fat instead. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I do have a distorted view of my body...probably a touch of what is called "Body Dysmorphic Disorder." People tell me I look fine, and yet I can give them a whole laundry list of what I think is "wrong" with my body. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif In fact, I grew up thinking I was ugly. My family and close friends said otherwise, but I wouldn't believe them. It was only a few years ago, while looking through some old pictures of myself as a little kid, that I was SHOCKED by how cute/pretty/beautiful I was. And for all that time, I thought I was dreadful. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Now, as an adult, I still have a problem looking in the mirror and being objective. But at least I no longer think I am hideous.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this (what else is new), except to show everyone that I am NOT unsympathetic to this issue, or to how sensitive the weight subject is. I, too, have body issues, and one of my very best friends has been bulimic for 13 years. I have visited her in the hospital, and, like Erin, I KNOW what an eating disorder looks like. It is a very serious thing, and very emotionally draining to these girls' friends and supporters.

So I don't consider myself off base when I see a picture and say to those around me, "That girl is TOO skinny. I don't think she's healthy." Those who get their hackles raised by such a comment have, IMO, fallen victim to our "be nice" society that thinks it's polite to turn a blind eye to someone who might not be okay...who, in reality, might be slowly killing themselves. To ignore a problem is to deny its existence. To me, "PC"="BS" most of the time. Let's get real and not be afraid to tell others when we notice things like this.

My friend with bulemia lived with my family for awhile, and still comes to visit. I will hide food so she can't binge, and try to distract her or even occupy the bathroom after meals so she can't puke. She may do it later, but I try anyway. NOW, maybe her weight issue, as some here have suggested, is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. Maybe I should ignore it entirely.

All I can say is, what a HORRIBLE friend/person I would be if I did that. What an INSENSITIVE thing it would be for me to stick my head in the sand and "not notice" when her skin is gray and her eyes are bloodshot. I CARE. I care about my friend. I also care about famous riders promoting that body image, however unintentionally. Yes, their weight is no one's business but their own. But when their weight contributes to an image that is public and widespread (think Towerheads), even famous, it becomes other people's business. What I see is my business, and the pros I look up to are my business, or their public appearance is anyway.

What ISN'T my business is to make baseless comments about what I see, which I tried not to do...but apparently failed.

At any rate, that's my opinion. Y'all are certainly entitled to feel differently. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I'm going to duck under my desk now, so fire away. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

PS: To Erin, Prider80, and the others who were able to see where I was coming from, THANK YOU.

"Good horses train themselves. It's the common ones you can't figure out what to do with."
~Jim Dennis 1923-2004

Erin
Mar. 13, 2004, 10:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:

I also care about famous riders promoting that body image, however unintentionally. Yes, their weight is no one's business but their own. But when their weight contributes to an image that is public and widespread (think Towerheads), even famous, it becomes other people's business. What I see is my business, and the pros I look up to are my business, or their public appearance is anyway.

What ISN'T my business is to make baseless comments about what I see, which I tried not to do...but apparently failed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooh, I was right with you until this last part. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't think it becomes "our" business just because someone is famous, any more than it would be "our" business if we saw someone on the street who was morbidly obese. Would we really go up to that person and say, "You have a problem, you need to lose weight"?

I think there's a middle ground. No, we shouldn't pretend that it's OK -- it's not. It's fine to think to YOURSELF that the person is unhealthily overweight. But really, your opinion doesn't mean diddly to that stranger on the street. So really all you can do is shake your head, say a mental prayer for the person and go on.

Now.... if this person is your friend? Then by all means, have at it! THEN it is your business.

This argument comes up so often with NFL/NBA/MLB players who kids idolize because they can throw a football 50 yards or slam dunk or hit a home run... but they do things like murder people, take drugs, and whatever else off the field. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No, of course those people aren't good role models for kids. So it's up to the PARENT to say, "Yeah, practice hard and try to learn to tackle like Ray Lewis." But you want the kid to realize that as a PERSON, he's not the guy to emulate.

subk
Mar. 13, 2004, 12:00 PM
Erin sorry about the horse analogy. My only point is that being significantly under weight has health repercussions regardless of whether it is the result of a psychological disorder and regardless if that person is otherwise "healthy."

Albion
Mar. 13, 2004, 12:27 PM
I agree, Erin - it's not 'our' business just because a person happens to be famous. If a famous person has an eating disorder, it's up to friends and family to help them through it. I don't agree with strangers nosing their opinions - no matter how right they may be - into other people's business, UNLESS what they are doing is somehow bothering you personally (and I don't just mean in the sense of 'It bothers me to see people who think that they need to starve themselves to do whatever/be pretty').

This came up on the 'Smoking at horseshows' thread on Off Course. I smoke. I KNOW it's very, very bad for me. I try to be a very concientious smoker - try not to smoke in crowded places, etc. If someone asked me POLITELY to put my cigarette out, I would. I do not, however, need a tirade, no matter how politely said/worded on how bad smoking is and don't I know it will kill me?

There are nasty opinions on both sides of the weight issue. I don't agree with heavier people taking pot shots at 'skinny minnies', and I don't agree with people who are a size 0 thinking that anyone who is a 6, 8, 10, etc. is a fat slob & should 'put down the McDonald's'. And yes, I've heard comments to that effect, about someone who was a size SIX. A normal-sized human being! It boggles my mind. But broaching the subject of weight with strangers is just classless. I would never make comments about weight (either under- or over-) to a perfect stranger, the same I way I would never waltz up & start talking about how much money I make vs. how much money they make. With friends, it's a totally different matter. If you have a friend with an eating disorder, you NEED to say something.

Some people commented that their friends didn't say anything or didn't care. Maybe they were just willfully not noticing ... or really DIDN'T notice, or things just weren't adding up for them. I just got over a VERY rough patch with my SO & dependence on pain killers (him, not me). This was going on, literally under my nose, for 2 months before he came clean to me. Yeah, I noticed 'weird' behavior, but it just never really connected in my head that he had a serious problem, and a chemical dependency. And we're not talking about secretive binging and purging, or even something as seemingly obvious as just having an apple for lunch and dinner, we're talking about someone who couldn't string 5 words together in a coherent sentence & whose eyes would roll into the back of his head & who would essentially fall asleep standing up. And I can really say that while I wasn't SURPRISED when he told me, I certainly hadn't thought of that as the reason for all the problems. I had put it down to other stuff.

The same thing can happen with eating disorders, depression, self-mutilation, etc. All of it is a big sign saying 'SOMETHING IS REALLY WRONG, HELP!', but if the person suffering from those problems isn't ready to come out and say 'I have a problem, help!', it can be VERY difficult for friends (even close ones) to discern what's really going on. It's usually easier for someone who's NOT close to the situation to see what's really going on.

I've been on both sides of the coin - the one not recognizing the clear signs of a big, BIG problem & the one who was having big, BIG problems and no one seemed to notice. In retrospect, I realized how good I was at hiding everything - I didn't want to burden my friends with it, and I hid it pretty well, until everything REALLY fell apart.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

Erin
Mar. 13, 2004, 12:58 PM
Roxy, this thread was started to talk about the issue of eating disorders, not any one person in particular. Please, let's not turn it into a discussion of one person. "Issues, not individuals." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

MAD
Mar. 13, 2004, 03:37 PM
I swore I would not post on this thread, but here I go. There is absolutely no excuse for marching up to someone - stranger or loved one -out of concern or jealousy or whatever, when you think they are too thin, have an eating disorder or whatever and saying to them: "You look awful" or even commenting publicly at all. There are nice, diplomatic ways to word things to them, if you must. And sbt78lw, I'm from NY, and not all of us have the attitude you described.

Often someone with an eating disorder or self-starvation problem (and this is describing no one in particular - it is generic) knows it but is powerless to change it. Just as a person that has become addicted to drugs or alchohol is sometimes not able to ask for help or change on their own, whatever has set them off is usually not why they are not eating, are drinking, are taking drugs, or are cutting themselves. Often the pain they are inflicting upon themselves is an escape from the real pain that is the root of their true issue. Being insensitive only causes more pain and may make that person to do more harm.

Only a person close to the person in need (not always a family member!) should approach the subject and it should be broached carefully.

In addition, who knows why someone is *suddenly* thin? Not all weight-loss can be attributed to eating disorders. Metabolism, certain medications, illness, stress...

[This message was edited by MAD on Mar. 13, 2004 at 06:47 PM.]

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Mar. 13, 2004, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now as far as image and riding. People STILL tell me I am too fat to show the eqs. Which is why I dont. I am 5'7" and 135 lbs. I can say that now without wincing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

135 is NOT HEAVY for someone who is 5'7" - especially if you are riding and are muscular! I would bet you are long in the torso and have chunky thighs? Right?? I would bet you are beautiful!! ANd EFF all of them that say you are too heavy for the Eqs - NOT SO!!!!

You don't KNOW how MAD that gets me!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

_ It's OUT! _ Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping _ co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, Weatherford.

I'm gonna be honest (maybe to the point of vulgar who knows) but when I was younger I was fricken fat. FAT. 5'4" and 165 lbs. And I was riding at least 2-5 horses a day, showing, and excercising (I swam), so my mother took me to an endocrinologist who put me on an EXTREMELY tight diet, and I lost a whole lot of weight (grew two inches since then) and I got down to 5'6" and 135 lbs. I thought I was amazing. Thin, gorgeous, wonderful, HOT! (lol just had to add that last one) Why? Because I had never been that thin before in my entire life. So, at an inch shorter, and the same weight as you, I did the equitation- Medal, Maclay, WIHS- AND went to finals AND won my local medal final.

So this "can't do the Eq" crap is a bunch of a baloney and you should laugh in the faces of whoever tells you that you can't (and yes I too was told I "couldnt" do it, and I finally DID learn just to go out there and prove them wrong!)

Policy of Truth
Mar. 13, 2004, 06:58 PM
"So this "can't do the Eq" crap is a bunch of a baloney and you should laugh in the faces of whoever tells you that you can't (and yes I too was told I "couldnt" do it, and I finally DID learn just to go out there and prove them wrong!)"

Agree 100000%!!!! How dare someone tell you you're too fat! That's the stupidest thing I've heard thus far in this thread! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

*In Your Dreams*
Mar. 13, 2004, 07:24 PM
I am not skinny, but I am thin and lanky, I am now 5'5'' and 118. People come up to me at partys and say "you need to eat more". I take it as a compliment, but then once Im at home again, I think, did they really have the right to say that? Or were they really complimenting me? What would they say if I said, "you need to eat less? So I think it is a matter of treat others as you want to be treated.

Andrea
Music the great communicator ~ use two sticks to make it in the nature-RHCP

Anyplace Farm
Mar. 13, 2004, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *In Your Dreams*:
I am not skinny, but I am thin and lanky, I am now 5'5'' and 118. People come up to me at partys and say "you need to eat more". I take it as a compliment, but then once Im at home again, I think, did they really have the right to say that? Or were they really complimenting me? What would they say if I said, "you need to eat less? So I think it is a matter of treat others as you want to be treated.

Andrea
_Music the great communicator ~ use two sticks to make it in the nature-RHCP_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right with ya, sister. Welcome to my world. But you know what? I've been skinny my whole life. When I graduated from high school, I was maybe 103 lbs. People have called me anorexic through the years and made some crappy comment or another.

When I went to the Dr to ask him what I need to do to get fatter he said, "You are not thin, America is fat." I'll never forget those words.

I do have to thank the rude people who called me 'skinny' and 'anorexic', though. Because they gave me such a bad feeling about my image, still to this day (I am coming 40), I will not wear a bathing suit anywhere. Ever. I quit at 18 when all of my other girlfriends were getting curves.

Now, since I haven't had all those years in the sun, I have better skin than women ten years my junior. I still get carded and shock the hell out of people when I tell them how old I am.

I look fabulous for my age and at a whopping 119 lbs on a 5'6" frame, I'm damn proud of my body now. Most of it was metabolism, but I also have never abused my body with crappy food, alcohol, drugs or smoking.

I also don't care about other people's bodies, like another poster said. I say live and let live and I would never want someone else to be made to feel as I did as a kid (which carries to adulthood). But, there's always someone out there to rain on someone's parade.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

SBT
Mar. 13, 2004, 08:10 PM
For the record, I'm not advocating walking up to a stranger...famous rider notwithstanding...and saying, "You're too thin/fat. I think you are unhealthy and you should do something about it." Even I'm not that crass. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif My arguement has more to do with people choosing to ignore weight issues as a rule because it's politically correct to do so.

I'll say this one more time: I think famous riders that are VERY thin or VERY fat (note capitalization here!) are a disgrace to the sport in that they promote the wrong image. I don't think they are bad people or bad riders, and I certainly wouldn't approach one of them to voice my opinion. Nor would I expect them to do anything about it. But I wouldn't make a point to support that rider. I would not lesson or clinic with them. If I had a website or other equestrian publication, I would refrain from circulating that rider's unhealthy image, on the off chance that in context, the image would be percieved as "normal" or "okay." I would avoid unnecessarily promoting such a rider, no matter how famous he or she was.

Albion
Mar. 13, 2004, 11:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When I went to the Dr to ask him what I need to do to get fatter he said, "You are not thin, America is fat." I'll never forget those words.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Anyplace, that's cool - I do agree that America is 'fat'. But I think we can ALL agree that an American woman - with hips and boobs - at a size 6 or 8 is NOT fat. 120 is far from an unhealthy weight for me, but at 130 on 5'2 - with a god-honest chest, hips, and a tiny waist - I am NOT fat. And I will not let anyone tell me I'm fat, just because I'm not incredibly slim, tall, and streamlined. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, but dear god. There is so much emphasis today on 'thin'. What exactly is 'thin'? Am I never going to be 'thin' because I have wide hips? Am I never going to be 'thin' because I have a big chest?

Different body types are going to have different looks, different weights, etc - doesn't mean X weight is neccessarily unhealthy. Why can't people come to the conclusion that not everyone who isn't SKINNY is unhealthy, just like everyone who is SKINNY is not unhealthy? Different strokes ... for different body types. Everyone's different, and that's what it boils down to. Some people do veer to extremes in either direction. But most people are NEVER going to be what they are not genetically programmed to be. That is, most people who are hourglasses (like me) are NOT going to be super skinny & have no chest, no hips, etc. Even when I lost a tremendous amount of weight & wasunhealthily skinny, I still had a C cup and 36 inch hips. I just did. And that was down to pretty much skin & bones for me. And most people who are naturally built to have no hips, no chest, etc. are NOT going to be an hourglass. Why can't people just accept that - everyone's different - there are people who are FAR too fat, and people who are FAR too thin - UNNATURALLY - and that's a bad thing, but there is so much HEALTHY variation in between.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

Egioja
Mar. 14, 2004, 12:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have two other girls living in my house, two are what I would consider overweight, my guess is that they wear an 8 or a 10.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't going to post on this thread, but when I read this, I just had to.
Let me start off by saying I am 19, 5'8", and just about 160lbs, and a size 8/10, depending on the brand. Yes, loosing 15 pounds would be great (at 142 1.5 years ago I was a size 5/6, and healthy-haing just lost about 15 pounds). I do not consider myself "overweight" because I am a size 10! Actually, I am happy with my body-yeah, loosing 15 pounds would be awesome, but if I do, I would have to eat more or less just salads, and I am not willing to do that, it's simply not healthy, and I'm not that desprate-right now I eat healthy, and I'm certainly not gaining weigt-actually, for me 150-155 is probably my perfect body weight, and one of these days I'll get the motivation to loose 5-10 pounds (something tells me working with a yearling colt this summer may help, LOL-although I do plan on starting pilates, but thats not to lose weight-thats to get mroe in shape). I may have a small layer of "flab", but I still have plenty of muscle, and I can still ride very effectivly.
Your size is not what makes you overweight, period, so what if you are a size 0,4,6 or whatever. This mentality is a huge problem, IMO-striving to be a certain size can cause so many body image issues, if I were ever to be a size 4 I would not look healthy, at all, I am just not built that way, and most people aren't.
My point is that looking to be the perfect size is not an answer, neither is looking to be a certain weight (unless you know exactly the weight your body is ideal at)-its to be in shape, and likewise a decent body fat percentage (and for those who don't know how to measure it-you can buy scales that do it for you). Personaly, my ideal would be 145 pounds, with a BFP of 19, but I am happy with how I look now, and I have yet to have someone tell me I look fat (although I do have people tell me i look good)-and one more thing-a good trick is to wear clothes that FIT-I cannot stand seeing girls walk around with the low-cut jeans that they just barely squeezed into with large rolls over the waist-get one size bigger, and you will look much thinner!

http://groups.msn.com/BAENAddicts/lizsherd.msnw?albumlist=2
"Don't view it as a problem, see it as an oppurtunity for a solution."

Dancing Lawn
Mar. 14, 2004, 04:16 AM
I'm going to try taking iron, as someone suggested, and see if that helps. i am so tired of always being cold.

As for being "too fat" for the eq, I am 5'3, and I have always weighed anywhere from 140 to 165. I have won every single eq. class I've ever entered, on the flat, and over fences. Won one, last spring, after not showing for years! So, let them say what they want, they'll change their tune, when you win the class.

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com) updated Feb 14/04
If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

MAD
Mar. 14, 2004, 05:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Anyplace Farm:
Right with ya, sister. Welcome to my world. But you know what? I've been skinny my whole life. When I graduated from high school, I was maybe 103 lbs. People have called me anorexic through the years and made some crappy comment or another.

When I went to the Dr to ask him what I need to do to get fatter he said, "You are not thin, America is fat." I'll never forget those words.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is about perception.

We could compare hunter/jumpers to racehorses. I remember when my sister and I went to the Arc de Triomphe with my brother-in-law. His whole education in horses up until then had been watching big warmbloods in the jumper ring or [fat] hunters.

He couldn't believe how skinny and little the horses seemed as we watched them parade before the race. We explained that he was seeing very fit horses with no fat, then compared them to marathon runners. He understood immediately.

Great post, Anyplace Farm, it helps to put things into perspective.

o2binca
Mar. 14, 2004, 05:58 AM
I think it's important to remember that being unhealthfully underweight or overweight can both be the result of eating disorders. I think there is a tendancy to view those who are underweight as having an eating disorder and to view those who are overweight to have a lack of willpower. They can both be complex problems whose basis may have little to do with food.

In either case I think a very close acquaintance/confidante should try to help, but it would need to be in the right way or it could be damaging. It is not appropriate for someone to just comment on an obvious problem, especially one as complex as food issues.

[This message was edited by o2binca on Mar. 14, 2004 at 12:58 PM.]

RodeoHunter
Mar. 14, 2004, 08:00 AM
Well, not always.....some people have an extremely low metabolism and it is hard to keep weight on. Right now I am 5'4 and 108lbs, relatives and friends tell me I need to eat more, one even calls me anorexic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. It makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong especially since that person is overweight and his children aren't "thin" so to speak....

I don't think we can say that is the responsiblilty of athletes to project a proper weight image. Okay, you can look at all of the riders who have a healthy weight and say, "hey look how well they're doing and they're not stick beanpoles" but it's not fair to look at someone who is successful but has an eating disorder and then judge them for not setting a good example.

If they can't even help themselves get healthy, then how are they to help others? I have struggled with weight issues in the past (in 4th year I got up to 117 and it freaked me out so much that I went on a cracker diet for 3 days; I knew that I was thinner than alot of my friends but the number on the scale bothered me - even writing this post my original weight was 109 and then I decided that if I weighed myself this morning I would probably be lighter so changed it to 108 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) and I still looked/look at my larger friends and envy their figures. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif It makes no sense.

That was long and rambling but the point was that your self image comes from within and it doesn't matter who weighs what around you and what you should weigh, it's not going to change the way you see yourself.

**Member of the Ocularly Challenged Equine Support Group**

Courtknee202
Mar. 14, 2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
Dare I show myself on this thread after inadvertantly spinning the other one in the wrong direction? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

I certainly was not trying to be mean or nasty, or to personally bash the person who was the subject of the thread. What I wanted to do was share some honest (albeit brutally honest) opinions. Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes honesty isn't nice. But I know I would much rather hear the ugly truth than have someone "polite" me to death. I grew up in an area of the country where "polite" and "nice" applied to everything. Two people having an arguement would do it in a "polite" manner. The result? You were always left guessing about how people REALLY felt.

I live in NY now, and things are much different here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif People here will usually tell you like it is, whether you want to hear it or not. For me, personally, I have found it to be a much healthier social atmosphere. Harsh? Yes. But honest. Sometimes honesty and "niceness" ARE mutually exclusive. Not always, but sometimes. I, for one, would much rather know the truth about how someone feels.

Now, back to the topic at hand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I am 5'7' and vacillate between 135 and 140. I have a ridiculous amount of muscle, particularly in my VERY long thighs. But I have always had the ability to look at muscle and see fat instead. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I do have a distorted view of my body...probably a touch of what is called "Body Dysmorphic Disorder." People tell me I look fine, and yet I can give them a whole laundry list of what I think is "wrong" with my body. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif In fact, I grew up thinking I was ugly. My family and close friends said otherwise, but I wouldn't believe them. It was only a few years ago, while looking through some old pictures of myself as a little kid, that I was SHOCKED by how cute/pretty/beautiful I was. And for all that time, I thought I was dreadful. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Now, as an adult, I still have a problem looking in the mirror and being objective. But at least I no longer think I am hideous.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this (what else is new), except to show everyone that I am NOT unsympathetic to this issue, or to how sensitive the weight subject is. I, too, have body issues, and one of my very best friends has been bulimic for 13 years. I have visited her in the hospital, and, like Erin, I KNOW what an eating disorder looks like. It is a very serious thing, and very emotionally draining to these girls' friends and supporters.

So I don't consider myself off base when I see a picture and say to those around me, "That girl is TOO skinny. I don't think she's healthy." Those who get their hackles raised by such a comment have, IMO, fallen victim to our "be nice" society that thinks it's polite to turn a blind eye to someone who might not be okay...who, in reality, might be slowly killing themselves. To ignore a problem is to deny its existence. To me, "PC"="BS" most of the time. Let's get real and not be afraid to tell others when we notice things like this.

My friend with bulemia lived with my family for awhile, and still comes to visit. I will hide food so she can't binge, and try to distract her or even occupy the bathroom after meals so she can't puke. She may do it later, but I try anyway. NOW, maybe her weight issue, as some here have suggested, is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. Maybe I should ignore it entirely.

All I can say is, what a HORRIBLE friend/person I would be if I did that. What an INSENSITIVE thing it would be for me to stick my head in the sand and "not notice" when her skin is gray and her eyes are bloodshot. I CARE. I care about my friend. I also care about famous riders promoting that body image, however unintentionally. Yes, their weight is no one's business but their own. But when their weight contributes to an image that is public and widespread (think Towerheads), even famous, it becomes other people's business. What I see is my business, and the pros I look up to are my business, or their public appearance is anyway.

What ISN'T my business is to make baseless comments about what I see, which I tried not to do...but apparently failed.

At any rate, that's my opinion. Y'all are certainly entitled to feel differently. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I'm going to duck under my desk now, so fire away. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

PS: To Erin, Prider80, and the others who were able to see where I was coming from, THANK YOU.

_"Good horses train themselves. It's the common ones you can't figure out what to do with."
~Jim Dennis 1923-2004_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I consider it out of line, when people come up to me and tell me how it is, which leads me to go running into my room crying, because I KNOW I am thin and I TRY to gain weight, and NOTHING WORKS. It's people like that, who make me hate my own body for being what it is. And I am ok. I have nice nails, great hair, clear skin and no dark body hair and yet I still get these comments because of my natural build. I eat healthy, and I eat a lot. My mom looked the same way I did when she was my age and people called her all sorts of cruel names.

If you know someone with an eating disorder by all means, do something about it. But seeing someone who is thin, going up to them and telling them your opinion on it, is incredibly wrong. Have you ever stopped to think maybe they hate their weight, and the way they look, and know they look too skinny? YES, even skinny people have this problem. I can tell you right now I'd be much happier if I was overweight as compared to what I currently am.

Courtknee202
Mar. 14, 2004, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anyplace Farm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *In Your Dreams*:
I am not skinny, but I am thin and lanky, I am now 5'5'' and 118. People come up to me at partys and say "you need to eat more". I take it as a compliment, but then once Im at home again, I think, did they really have the right to say that? Or were they really complimenting me? What would they say if I said, "you need to eat less? So I think it is a matter of treat others as you want to be treated.

Andrea
_Music the great communicator ~ use two sticks to make it in the nature-RHCP_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right with ya, sister. Welcome to my world. But you know what? I've been skinny my whole life. When I graduated from high school, I was maybe 103 lbs. People have called me anorexic through the years and made some crappy comment or another.

When I went to the Dr to ask him what I need to do to get fatter he said, "You are not thin, America is fat." I'll never forget those words.

I do have to thank the rude people who called me 'skinny' and 'anorexic', though. Because they gave me such a bad feeling about my image, still to this day (I am coming 40), I will not wear a bathing suit anywhere. Ever. I quit at 18 when all of my other girlfriends were getting curves.

Now, since I haven't had all those years in the sun, I have better skin than women ten years my junior. I still get carded and shock the hell out of people when I tell them how old I am.

I look fabulous for my age and at a whopping 119 lbs on a 5'6" frame, I'm damn proud of my body now. Most of it was metabolism, but I also have never abused my body with crappy food, alcohol, drugs or smoking.

I also don't care about other people's bodies, like another poster said. I say live and let live and I would never want someone else to be made to feel as I did as a kid (which carries to adulthood). But, there's always someone out there to rain on someone's parade.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I weighed 105 when I graduated from high school. Now, 3 years later, I weigh 110 on a good day. A very inspirational post and it's good to see their are others out there who know what it's like!

Kels
Mar. 14, 2004, 09:54 AM
When my boyfriend was like, 16, he was at a football game for his school. There was a HORRIBLY skinny cheerleader and he remembers making fun of her with his friends.

A few minutes later, a woman in front of them turned around- she was crying, and she said that that girl was her daughter's best friend, and she had leukemia.

That was a slap in the face for my boyfriend, who is usually a respectful guy.

I have a good friend who is 5'9" and she weighs like 110 lbs. She is NOT anorexic, she has a thyroid problem. She is so skinny that her belly button is nearly non-exsistent because the skin on her stomach is so tight.

I HATE when people make comments about people being too skinny, unless you know the ENTIRE situation, butt out.

In highschool I suffered from bulemia. I'm still not proud of my body, but I am a lot happier with it now than I was then, and I weigh more too.

I let people tell me how fat I was- 5'4" and 125 lbs. little did I know that that is NOT fat. Now I am 5'4" and 135 lbs., which is the ideal weight for my body according to my doctors. And I believe them.

Unless you are family or a good friend whom the person with said "problem" is confiding in, and you know the ENTIRE story, just MYOB unless it's very, VERY obvious that said person is either morbidly obese or morbidly skinny.

-Kelsey-
WTF? Here they are! (http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/Fruitbat2.jpg)

o2binca
Mar. 14, 2004, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kels:
just MYOB unless it's very, VERY obvious that said person is either morbidly obese or morbidly skinny.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kels - I agree with said, but with a slight clarification. If someone is morbidly skinny or morbidly obese I'm sure that they are painfully aware of their situation and don't need to be reminded of it. It is probably a complex problem that shouldn't be touched without fully considering all the ramifications, and possibly the help of a specialist.

Also, in rereading my last post (which was before coffee this morning) it sounded like I meant that anyone who was overweight or underweight had an eating disorder. What I meant is that when someone is either unhealthfully overweight or underweight they may have a complex eating disorder that is a result of other things in their life. I think that underweight people are often seen as having an eating disorder and overweight people are seen as having a lack of willpower.

Erin
Mar. 14, 2004, 10:33 AM
Someone who is morbidly obese or morbidly skinny might also be in deep, deep denial that they have a problem, as might the people around them.

I know my anorexic friend's parents made all sorts of excuses for her. Concerned friends of the family approached them and were told that my friend was stressed out from exams, was just getting over being sick, stuff like that.

I think the parents knew darn well there was a problem -- and to their credit, they were trying their darnedest to keep my friend eating -- but they wouldn't admit there was a problem to people outside the family.

o2binca
Mar. 14, 2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

I'll say this one more time: I think famous riders that are VERY thin or VERY fat (note capitalization here!) are a disgrace to the sport in that they promote the wrong image...I would not lesson or clinic with them. If I had a website or other equestrian publication, I would refrain from circulating that rider's unhealthy image, on the off chance that in context, the image would be percieved as "normal" or "okay." I would avoid unnecessarily promoting such a rider, no matter how famous he or she was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is kind of an interesting idea. On one hand, I can understand feeling this way. Riding is a sport where it is better to be lean and fit.

I can also see that promoting an unhealthfully underweight rider could be potentially damaging to young girls already struggling with body image issues.

But I do have trouble with the idea that the "proper image" of a rider could not include someone famous (and therefore sucessful) who is very thin or very fat. Eating issues are not just a matter of eating a little more or a little less. They are complex problems that often have little to do with food. Weight can also be a function of a physical problem or other medical condition. Is riding such an elite sport that we can't make room for people who have real life problems (especially if they express themselves as too much or too little weight)? They aren't "normal" or "okay", even if they are famous/successful horsemen? That seems very sad to me.

In some ways, I think it could be beneficial to promote an overweight rider. What if there is a little girl out there who is overweight because of some medical treatment or because eating is her way of surviving an abusive situation. Riding could be very beneficial for her, and maybe she would feel more encouraged to participate if she sees a professional rider to whom she can more relate.

I also think there is some implication here that if aspiring riders see a famous overweight rider they will somehow think it's good to be fat and not strive to be more thin or fit, and somehow our standards will slip. I don't think there is any danger of that.

Overweight people, especially riders, are painfully aware of their situation and how it affects their riding. They are not heavy because they want to be or because they haven't tried to be thin. They are heavy because they are human and that's the card they were dealt. (And I'm not implying they necessarily can't change; it just may be a long or complex process.)

I am against promoting riders with a proven reputation for things like animal abuse and drug use. But I guess to me, unhealthful body size calls more for empathy than discrimination.

[This message was edited by o2binca on Mar. 14, 2004 at 03:08 PM.]

~LF
Mar. 14, 2004, 01:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

I'll say this one more time: I think famous riders that are VERY thin or VERY fat (note capitalization here!) are a disgrace to the sport in that they promote the wrong image...I would not lesson or clinic with them. If I had a website or other equestrian publication, I would refrain from circulating that rider's unhealthy image, on the off chance that in context, the image would be percieved as "normal" or "okay." I would avoid unnecessarily promoting such a rider, no matter how famous he or she was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Would you not watch a movie if the leading roles were held by actors of extremes in weight, whether it be too fat or too thin?

Would you not allow you child to be taught in school by a teacher who was over or under weight? My, they should be teaching by example too, right?

Would you refuse to clinic with George Morris, Missy Clarke, etc, if they were to have a dishevelled appearance - bad teeth, hair, skin? Appearences like that could be promoting bad hygiene, right?

Sorry to play devil's advocate but I think many people are weighing in (bad pun) on this issue and making it a larger factor than it need be. In our society, weight is an obsession. In riding, we should be 'obsessed' with talent and ability. Let's not get the two confused.

[This message was edited by ~LF on Mar. 14, 2004 at 06:28 PM.]

SunshineGA
Mar. 14, 2004, 02:04 PM
I think the real issue lies with people not being able to distinguish an unhealthy weight with a healthy weight.

I understand if I knew someone in person and they had obvious signs of anorexia, but for people to jump on the bandwagon and say anyone who is extremely skinny looks unhealthy is another thing.

So yes, if the person is **obviously** anorexic then I could see a problem with leading by example and setting an image as a responsible role model.

There are some people who are borderline and are very skinny and not naturally that way... but if you don't know, don't assume, it's none of your business.

So if none of that made sense, sorry, I've been cooped up all day (my choice! today is my NOTHING day!) and I also haven't read all the recent posts, just some of em.

Member of the IHSA clique

http://community.webshots.com/user/sunshinengcsu

fleur
Mar. 14, 2004, 02:07 PM
when i hit the GP level, i hope to be known as a BFR - big fat rider http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif j/k but honestly if someone is a great rider who wins honestly and because of talent, they are healthy, and they are a decent size match for their horse, who the hell are any of you to tell them that they are not promoting the 'right' body image?

TGFPT clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin
Mar. 14, 2004, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SunshineGA:
I think the real issue lies with people not being able to distinguish an unhealthy weight with a healthy weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

We're all capable of casting a critical eye over a horse and deciding whether or not he's in good weight for his breed, level of activity, size, etc. And we know the difference between a hard keeper and a horse that isn't being fed well enough to maintain a healthy weight.

I have to wonder if our society's warped ideas on body image haven't made us incapable of making these same kind of assessments of people. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Like I said earlier, I agree that it's not really anyone else's business. But that doesn't change the fact that we can observe people who are of an unhealthy weight and say to ourselves "That's not an acceptable weight."

By all means, there might be a legitimate reason other than an eating disorder. That doesn't change the fact that it's an unhealthy weight. And I just think it does everyone a disservice to pretend otherwise.

o2binca
Mar. 14, 2004, 02:18 PM
LF - That quote that you pulled from my post was NOT written by me and is not what I believe. It was pulled from someone else's post on page 4. I guess I should have given them credit for it, but I intentionally left their name off because I didn't want my response to be taken personally.

The way you posted it makes it look like I said it. If you don't mind would you please edit your post and take my name off of it or put the original poster's name on it. Thanks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~LF
Mar. 14, 2004, 03:38 PM
Done & done, I didn't realize it showed up like that, sorry! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider
Mar. 14, 2004, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Egioja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have two other girls living in my house, two are what I would consider overweight, my guess is that they wear an 8 or a 10.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't going to post on this thread, but when I read this, I just had to.
Let me start off by saying I am 19, 5'8", and just about 160lbs, and a size 8/10, depending on the brand. Yes, loosing 15 pounds would be great (at 142 1.5 years ago I was a size 5/6, and healthy-haing just lost about 15 pounds). I do not consider myself "overweight" because I am a size 10! Actually, I am happy with my body-yeah, loosing 15 pounds would be awesome, but if I do, I would have to eat more or less just salads, and I am not willing to do that, it's simply not healthy, and I'm not that desprate-right now I eat healthy, and I'm certainly not gaining weigt-actually, for me 150-155 is probably my perfect body weight, and one of these days I'll get the motivation to loose 5-10 pounds (something tells me working with a yearling colt this summer may help, LOL-although I do plan on starting pilates, but thats not to lose weight-thats to get mroe in shape). I may have a _small_ layer of "flab", but I still have plenty of muscle, and I can still ride very effectivly.
Your size is not what makes you overweight, period, so what if you are a size 0,4,6 or whatever. This mentality is a huge problem, IMO-striving to be a certain size can cause so many body image issues, if I were ever to be a size 4 I would not look healthy, at all, I am just not built that way, and most people aren't.
My point is that looking to be the perfect size is not an answer, neither is looking to be a certain weight (unless you know exactly the weight your body is ideal at)-its to be in shape, and likewise a decent body fat percentage (and for those who don't know how to measure it-you can buy scales that do it for you). Personaly, my ideal would be 145 pounds, with a BFP of 19, but I am happy with how I look now, and I have yet to have someone tell me I look fat (although I do have people tell me i look good)-and one more thing-a good trick is to wear clothes that FIT-I cannot stand seeing girls walk around with the low-cut jeans that they just barely squeezed into with large rolls over the waist-get one size bigger, and you will look much thinner!

http://groups.msn.com/BAENAddicts/lizsherd.msnw?albumlist=2
"Don't view it as a problem, see it as an oppurtunity for a solution."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I very much agree that overweight and fat are two totally different things. And of these two girls in my house, one is extremely athletic and eats healthy and is what "I" would consider overweight for her body frame HOWEVER she is NOT fat. My other roommate does not carry her weight as well and eats junk. I still think she is just overweight, NOT fat.

And I totally agree with whoever said that the real problem is distinguising between healthy skinny and unhealthy skinny etc. I still don't think it's anyone's business how I maintain my weight as I would never comment to someone else about theirs. It's not about being PC it's about minding my own damn business http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Mar. 14, 2004, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prider80:
Public figures with an _ apparent health problem _become topics of discussion just by virtue of the fact that they're well-known. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what really gets my goat. How exactly do you define that LC has an apparent health problem because she looks skinny? Skinny people are not always unhealthy!! And by apparent health problem I realize you here are insinuating an eating disorder, but it could very well be a thyroid problem or something completely unrelated. Or *GASP* it could be NOTHING AT ALL.

This is what gets me, as many people have said before, it's not okay to be overweight and it's not okay to be skinny but how many people do you know who are what everyone seems to want to consider "healthy" weight. And who decides that anyway?? I have two other girls living in my house, two are what I would consider overweight, my guess is that they wear an 8 or a 10. Now I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for that but you know what, I could care less how much they weigh because I am interested in their personalities. I don't judge people on how much they weigh nor would I expect someone to judge me on how much I weigh. However, I am the one that people assume has an eating disorder if I don't scarf down a huge meal everytime someone mentions food because I am a size 0. I hate it just as much as they would hate someone reprimanding them FOR eating.

Why can't everyone just get over how everyone else looks. Who cares. I don't care what weight LC is, nor do I care what weight anyone else on this BB or in the horse world is. And quite frankly I think it's ridiculous to talk about it. We should be happy with the way we look and should stop sticking our noses in everyone else's business (i.e. weight).

ETA - I totally agree with Anyplace.

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CGR- I'm not attacking you, it just totally made me angry that you called two women...sizes 8 or 10, overweight. Maybe they ARE for their frames, but I can tell you this- the average size of an American woman IS a size FOURTEEN- and hearing you say that makes me- a size 8-10 shudder- but it might have an even greater effect on someone with less confidence...weight is how you carry it- I'm Italian with huge hips...my waist is small (think Baby Got Back) and I have a normal sized chest- yeah I've gained some weight in the past two years, and YEAH I need to lose it- but for pete's sake I'm not FAT...

Vandy
Mar. 14, 2004, 04:43 PM
CGR - I too read your earlier post re: the 2 women size 8-10 and it jumped out at me as well...I am 5'11" and if I could get down to a size 8, that would probably be too thin for my frame. Surprising to hear that someone's idea of "overweight" is 8-10. Not from my perspective.

When I think of someone anywhere near my height wearing anything LESS than size 8, I would think they are either underweight or haven't hit puberty yet. JMHO.

ishmael
Mar. 14, 2004, 05:14 PM
That's what I was thinking too! I'm 5'10, border on lowest healthy weight according to BMI, and I still wear a size 10! Sizes don't mean much, it's the way you wear the weight that matters. My hips wouldn't fit in a size 6 if I was a skeleton. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am happy to see such a lot of people with their heads on straight about the weight issue. I have seen overweight riders who look wonderful and soft, and very thin riders who just look awful. If I was a horse, I'd take the heavier, softer rider any day!

It strikes me as callous and presumptuous to draw individual names through the mud, though--and it shows a lack of respect for this board, so nicely provided for us by COTH. Thanks to those who have attempted to talk about this in a mature fashion...it's reaffirming to know that even if there are a few miscreants, the vast majority of the posters here are concerned, yet empathetic, people.

HARROLDhasmyheart
Mar. 14, 2004, 05:31 PM
[/QUOTE]CGR- I'm not attacking you, it just totally made me angry that you called two women...sizes 8 or 10, overweight. Maybe they ARE for their frames, but I can tell you this- the average size of an American woman IS a size FOURTEEN- and hearing you say that makes me- a size 8-10 shudder- but it might have an even greater effect on someone with less confidence[/QUOTE]

That's completley true. Regardless of what everyone thinks of as the "acceptable" size, or and "acceptable weight," is completley different from what is truley the standard. Like woudn'tYOUliketoknow said, a size 14 IS aobut the average size for a woman, not an 8 or a 10. I'm not trying to reprimand you, or come off as rude, so sorry if I am. It's just a bit *alarming* that you would consider a size 8 or a size 10 overweight.

* * * * * * * *

"if riding were only blue ribbons and bright lights, i would have quit long ago."

bounce once if you believe in diaganols!

i &lt;3 my ponies!

ponies are small horses. small horses are big ponies. big ponies are monsterous minatures. so a minature horse is the same as a pony is the same as a horse, right?
http://community.webshots.com/user/crazypony14

ClemsonGraduateRider
Mar. 14, 2004, 06:11 PM
I don't consider any of you as attacking me. No worries. I realized that comment was going to get me some flames.

I supposed that my frame of reference would make me consider an 8 or a 10 overweight, well because for me, it would be. So taking into account someone else's body type is fine, but with the two girls I was specifically talking about they have a little extra weight. And for all I know they may be more like a 12/14. I am horrible at guessing sizes. Regardless as I have stated before and will state again, I consider neither of these girls fat. I think that overweight and fat can be two completely different things. Fat to me is when someone is not fit, doesn't eat even a little bit healthy, and is considered obese medically. Overweight to me is someone who may be carry some extra pounds around the belly, arse,or have a bigger frame but are also fit, eat healthy etc. I consider myself to be a bit overweight if I have stuffed myself completely for a week but I DO NOT think that I am fat. Maybe in my little weird world this makes sense http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, I most certainly don't think that these girls weight is a) my business b) anything I should comment on to them c) or bad vs good, it just is what it is! Just as my weight is what it is, and it really isnt anyone's business to tell me to eat, tell me they think I am anorexic etc.

I do have a comment about the average size of women, now obviously there are going to be outliers like the size 0's and the size 28's but to me, and I apologize ahead of time, a 14 is overweight. I"m sorry, to me it just is. I certainly don't think that everyone needs to be a size four, but with my friends and most of the people I know I would say the average is certainly more like an 8. I know clothing sizes have fluctuated over the years, but can anyone seriously not argue that American in general has gotten larger? Please don't misunderstand me, I think that loving yourself for you who you are is the most important thing, but is the avg size of an American woman at 14 a healthy avg to have? I know there will always be people who work out and are healthy and are just built bigger but I really do not think that the majority of "larger" Americans are that way. I don't think there is any easy solution to the weight problem in America but I think that if the population as a whole started to want to be healthy instead of "skinny" you would see the avg size go down. I don't think skinny should be what is strived for, but I most
CERTAINLY think healthy should be.
Sorry for the rambling!

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

Erin
Mar. 14, 2004, 06:22 PM
I don't know where the average size is a 14 thing comes from, but it's kind of a useless statistic. One woman can be a size 14 and be just the right size, while for another woman it can be very overweight.

Also, I'm pretty sure my grandmother was a size 14... she was in her 70s, and was getting kind of round. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I definitely wouldn't say she was fat. I doubt you would find very many women over the age of 50 who are a size 2 or 4. So that skews the whole "average size" thing too.

I'm pretty sure it IS well established that a large portion of Americans are heavier than they should be for their body frame size and age. But this whole size 14 statistic bugs me... no offense to whoever mentioned it first, it's more a criticism of whoever did the study and publicized it, because that's just completely useless information unless you run a clothing store or manufacture clothes! It doesn't say anything about health or obesity.

HARROLDhasmyheart
Mar. 14, 2004, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
I don't consider any of you as attacking me. No worries. I realized that comment was going to get me some flames.

I supposed that my frame of reference would make me consider an 8 or a 10 overweight, well because for me, it would be. So taking into account someone else's body type is fine, but with the two girls I was specifically talking about they have a little extra weight. And for all I know they may be more like a 12/14. I am horrible at guessing sizes. Regardless as I have stated before and will state again, I consider neither of these girls fat. I think that overweight and fat can be two completely different things. Fat to me is when someone is not fit, doesn't eat even a little bit healthy, and is considered obese medically. Overweight to me is someone who may be carry some extra pounds around the belly, arse,or have a bigger frame but are also fit, eat healthy etc. I consider myself to be a bit overweight if I have stuffed myself completely for a week but I DO NOT think that I am fat. Maybe in my little weird world this makes sense http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, I most certainly don't think that these girls weight is a) my business b) anything I should comment on to them c) or bad vs good, it just is what it is! Just as my weight is what it is, and it really isnt anyone's business to tell me to eat, tell me they think I am anorexic etc.

I do have a comment about the average size of women, now obviously there are going to be outliers like the size 0's and the size 28's but to me, and I apologize ahead of time, a 14 is overweight. I"m sorry, to me it just is. I certainly don't think that everyone needs to be a size four, but with my friends and most of the people I know I would say the average is certainly more like an 8. I know clothing sizes have fluctuated over the years, but can anyone seriously not argue that American in general has gotten larger? Please don't misunderstand me, I think that loving yourself for you who you are is the most important thing, but is the avg size of an American woman at 14 a healthy avg to have? I know there will always be people who work out and are healthy and are just built bigger but I really do not think that the majority of "larger" Americans are that way. I don't think there is any easy solution to the weight problem in America but I think that if the population as a whole started to want to be healthy instead of "skinny" you would see the avg size go down. I don't think skinny should be what is strived for, but I most
CERTAINLY think healthy should be.
Sorry for the rambling!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's also true. i mean even though i know what the statistics are, statistics DO lie. there's a quote/poem that's a perfect example of that:
A woman is often measured by the things she can not control. She is measured by the way her body curves or doesn't curve, by where she is flat or straight or round. By all the outside things that don't ever add up to who she is on the inside. And so, if a woman is to be measured, let her be measured by the things she can control, by who she is and who she is trying to become. By her passions, her dreams, her goals. Because as every woman knows, measurements are only statistics, and statistics lie.


i've got one more thing to say. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I can see both sides of, "oh, a size ___ is overweight." or, "oh, a size ___ is the average," and I can support both arguments. But I guess that's not completley true, because it's completley determined by the situation.

I'm going to step down off my soapbox now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

* * * * * * * *

"if riding were only blue ribbons and bright lights, i would have quit long ago."

bounce once if you believe in diaganols!

i &lt;3 my ponies!

ponies are small horses. small horses are big ponies. big ponies are monsterous minatures. so a minature horse is the same as a pony is the same as a horse, right?
http://community.webshots.com/user/crazypony14

o2binca
Mar. 14, 2004, 07:44 PM
Thanks LF, and sorry if I overreacted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MistyBlue
Mar. 14, 2004, 07:46 PM
Not sure if this has anything to do with anything...but Marilyn Monroe wore a size 14.

I wear a smaller size...but don't come CLOSE to looking like she did! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

SBT
Mar. 14, 2004, 07:57 PM
Courtney01, did you miss my other post?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
For the record, I'm not advocating walking up to a stranger...famous rider notwithstanding...and saying, "You're too thin/fat. I think you are unhealthy and you should do something about it." Even _I'm_ not that crass. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif My arguement has more to do with people choosing to ignore weight issues as a rule because it's politically correct to do so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I'm going to get off this thread now, because I'm obviously not expressing myself productively. I appear to be coming across as an insensitive jerk, which I'm not. Really. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I can't quite seem to explain my views accurately, except to say this: Basically, my feeling is that self-destructive people can do whatever they want with their own lives, but I don't want to be forced to see it. I don't want to see super-skinny riders on websites, just like I don't want to see drugged-out rock stars on prime time TV. I don't want those images shoved down my throat and justified by fame. We seem to find a way to make everything acceptable these days, and I don't like it at all. There is no accountability.

"Good horses train themselves. It's the common ones you can't figure out what to do with."
~Jim Dennis 1923-2004

ClemsonGraduateRider
Mar. 14, 2004, 08:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:

I think I'm going to get off this thread now, because I'm obviously not expressing myself productively. I appear to be coming across as an insensitive jerk, which I'm not. Really. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I can't quite seem to explain my views accurately, except to say this: Basically, my feeling is that self-destructive people can do whatever they want with their own lives, but I don't want to be forced to see it. I don't want to see super-skinny riders on websites, just like I don't want to see drugged-out rock stars on prime time TV. I don't want those images shoved down my throat and justified by fame. We seem to find a way to make everything acceptable these days, and I don't like it at all. There is no accountability.

_"Good horses train themselves. It's the common ones you can't figure out what to do with."
~Jim Dennis 1923-2004_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But to be devil's advocate, you can choose your media sources. If you don't like what you are watching, reading etc, then change it and stay away from those media outlets that show images you are not a fan of. And for the record, I don't think anyone was trying to justify LC's weight with fame. It was more a don't accuse her of being this way if you do not know for sure kind of thing.

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

Rifter
Mar. 14, 2004, 08:39 PM
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I just need to bring it up. In just about every sport with some asthetic aspect (dance, skating, gymnastics, etc) the IDEAL athlete is ALWAYS thin. When was the last time you saw an obese woman in the NYC Ballet's rendition of Swan Lake? Or when was the last time you saw a figure skater with seriously flabby thighs? I'm not commenting on whether or not these standards are right or moral or acceptable or what have you, but I'm just saying that's the way the cookie crumbles. The same goes for riding. How many famous riders are obese? I'm not to up on my top riders trivia, but I can only think of one GP rider who MIGHT be considered overweight, and I'm not about to bring their name up here because I think it's innappropriate. To put it plainly: our society doesn't want to see fat people performing in capacities that are supposed to be asthetically pleasing. It's a sad but true fact. Eating disorders, whether they result in excessive skinniness or morbid obesity, are extremely complex both to diagnose and to treat. But, unfortunately, until our society is able to appreciate people of varying body types, EDs will continue to plague us.
We could've engaged in a serious and frank discussion of riders & weight issues without dragging a particular rider's name through the mud. We're all aware of people in our sport (be they local competitors or GP riders) who, to us, appear either excessively thin or excessively overweight. Individually, we could've used these people as our reference points without putting names on here. But of course we didn't because isn't it more interesting to point fingers at particular individuals than to have a serious discussion about the issues? (Note: sarcasm). And as some have insinuated, it's not ignoring the problem if we don't bring up names. Those who have eating problems and weight issues are painfully aware of these issues and don't need their problems discussed on a public internet bulletin board. That's not ignoring an issue, that's allowing the suffering individual and those close to him/her to deal with it without the scrutiny of the public.
So as Erin said, why don't we discuss issues and NOT individuals?

*-Rifter-*
Proud Member of the Dirty Grey Horse and the Disgruntled College Student Cliques

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 16, 2004 at 12:13 AM.]

Kels
Mar. 14, 2004, 08:48 PM
And averages lie.

Some women will be a size 2 and perfect for their frame, while another might be a size 2 and morbidly skinny, while yet ANOTHER might be a size 24 and very obsese.

I think there's a fine line between "overweight," "fat," and "skinny." I also think there's a fine line between those terms and "the perfect weight." Everyone has their own views, and it's hard not to want to be on the thin side with all of these images being shoved down our throat, like sbt78lw said. But I try not to judge because I know I've been on a couple sides of that line.

It's about accepting who you are and teaching others to do the same, rather than try to change who you are. Something I wish I had known a few years ago while I was struggling with the disease.

-Kelsey-
WTF? Here they are! (http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/Fruitbat2.jpg)

Courtknee202
Mar. 15, 2004, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
Courtney01, did you miss my other post?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
For the record, I'm not advocating walking up to a stranger...famous rider notwithstanding...and saying, "You're too thin/fat. I think you are unhealthy and you should do something about it." Even _I'm_ not that crass. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif My arguement has more to do with people choosing to ignore weight issues as a rule because it's politically correct to do so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I'm going to get off this thread now, because I'm obviously not expressing myself productively. I appear to be coming across as an insensitive jerk, which I'm not. Really. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I can't quite seem to explain my views accurately, except to say this: Basically, my feeling is that self-destructive people can do whatever they want with their own lives, but I don't want to be forced to see it. I don't want to see super-skinny riders on websites, just like I don't want to see drugged-out rock stars on prime time TV. I don't want those images shoved down my throat and justified by fame. We seem to find a way to make everything acceptable these days, and I don't like it at all. There is no accountability.

_"Good horses train themselves. It's the common ones you can't figure out what to do with."
~Jim Dennis 1923-2004_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am super skinny, so I guess this means I shouldn't aim for my goals because you "don't want to see super-skinny riders". The only thing bugging me on this thread is there seems to be an underlying tone that super skinny girls posting here, are in denial of having anorexia (or something similar) when it's simply not the case.

MAD
Mar. 15, 2004, 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:

I think I'm going to get off this thread now, because I'm obviously not expressing myself productively. I appear to be coming across as an insensitive jerk, which I'm not. Really. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I can't quite seem to explain my views accurately, except to say this: Basically, my feeling is that self-destructive people can do whatever they want with their own lives, but I don't want to be forced to see it. I don't want to see super-skinny riders on websites, just like I don't want to see drugged-out rock stars on prime time TV. I don't want those images shoved down my throat and justified by fame. We seem to find a way to make everything acceptable these days, and I don't like it at all. There is no accountability.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
I am 5'7' and vacillate between 135 and 140. I have a ridiculous amount of muscle, particularly in my VERY long thighs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OK, so your body is perfect [though you are just beginning to believe it] and you don't want to be "forced" to watch less than perfection. I'd say that you should take up a new sport, such as Synchronized Swimming.

http://www.usasynchro.org/events/Long%20Beach/Long_beach_04.htm

Magnolia
Mar. 15, 2004, 05:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My max. bench press is over 260 lbs and I can do the free weight leg press at almost 500 lbs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be ONE muscular gal! Is that 260 in addition to the bar???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Most women can only do the bar....

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Magnolia
Mar. 15, 2004, 06:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> a 14 is overweight <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But how many people here have clothing in 4 different sizes in their closets? There are some SMALL size 14 items out there, as well as some huge size 14's. Heck, look at hun coats - how many people wear a 14 Grand Prix hunt coat and size 8 levis?

To define health/athleticism by weight/size is just not correct and never will be. Yes, we have a huge problem in this country with obesity. But, there is the 175 lb woman who eats McDonalds and never exercises and there is the 175 lb woman who works out daily and eats broiled fish and veggies. Inversely, there is the 100 lb woman who starves herself and the 100 lb woman who eats all day and never gains a pound.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

robnrun
Mar. 15, 2004, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rifter:
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I just need to bring it up. In just about every sport with some asthetic aspect (dance, skating, gymnastics, etc) the IDEAL athlete is ALWAYS thin. When was the last time you saw an obese woman in the NYC Ballet's rendition of Swan Lake? Or when was the last time you saw a figure skater with seriously flabby thighs? I'm not commenting on whether or not these standards are right or moral or acceptable or what have you, but I'm just saying that's the way the cookie crumbles. The same goes for riding. How many famous riders are obese?
*-Rifter-*
Proud Member of the Dirty Grey Horse and the Disgruntled College Student Cliques<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think it is simply a matter of asthetics that virtually all successful athletes are thin. In those sports the people are physically working out for hours everyday; they aren't going to be fat (the typical dancer's day is around 8 hours of dance, 6 days a week). Furthermore to be a bit blunt you won't see an obese dancer or athlete performing at an international level because they can't maintain the same standard of perfection or athletic ability; anymore than a fat horse is going to win the Kentucky Derby. Nothing to do with what looks good, everything to do with what performs the best.

Nickelodian
Mar. 15, 2004, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> a 14 is overweight <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But how many people here have clothing in 4 different sizes in their closets? There are some SMALL size 14 items out there, as well as some huge size 14's. Heck, look at hun coats - how many people wear a 14 Grand Prix hunt coat and size 8 levis?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An unfair comparison as Grand Prix hunt coats have their own sizing that do not follow industry standards. I believe when referring to a size 14 a person is referring to size 14 pants. To me a size 14 is probably overweight for 80% of women out there. However, I am 5'1, 113 lbs. Size 2-4 pants but wear a size 14 GP coat (then taken in in the waist), the 12s are too narrow in the shoulders. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

Magnolia
Mar. 15, 2004, 07:05 AM
Actually, there is still a lot of sizing differences beyond hunt coats. Take for example, Old Navy vs LL Bean. I can wear a 14 LL Bean pant, can't wear a 14 Old Navy (now, I'm overweight.... not denying that!).

Measurements for clothing manufacturers vary greatly, Victoria's Secret uses a smaller cut than LL Bean or Old Navy.

Dress sizes are really misleading to judge weight problems - big, muscular thighs or a J-Lo butt can put you 2 sizes larger in many brands than your waist/hip measurement.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Jleegriffith
Mar. 15, 2004, 07:12 AM
I find this thread interesting b/c according to health standards I am obese. I am 5'5 and weigh 167 lbs. I ride 2 horses a day and go the gym 4 days a week doing cardio and weight training. I also do all the barn work(2hrs worth and 10stalls) on the weekend. I feel fat all the time. I want to be that skinny girl I was in high school when I weighed 130. However, in college I ballooned up to 190lbs so I have lost 22lbs. I would love to be a size 8. I think I would be able to look beter riding. It would help my self image. I always feel fat compared to everyone else who rides and I would love to just feel normal again. I try to diet and work out as much as possible but the truth is losing weight is hard.
When I look at skinny people i am jealous. I think they are lucky to be thin. They either are genetically like that or they work really hard to be that thin. I would never tell anyone they are too thin or too fat. It is very harmful to do that.
It is funny b/c I said to my dressage trainer I need to lose weight. She laughed and said that sometimes it was better to have a little weight behind you so that you can be a more effective rider. I guess it depends who you are and how you see it.

Kels
Mar. 15, 2004, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
Actually, there is still a lot of sizing differences beyond hunt coats. Take for example, Old Navy vs LL Bean. I can wear a 14 LL Bean pant, can't wear a 14 Old Navy (now, I'm overweight.... not denying that!).

Measurements for clothing manufacturers vary greatly, Victoria's Secret uses a smaller cut than LL Bean or Old Navy.

Dress sizes are really misleading to judge weight problems - big, muscular thighs or a J-Lo butt can put you 2 sizes larger in many brands than your waist/hip measurement.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but what Nickelodian was saying is that it's impossible to correctly compare hunt coats (which are not designed to an industry standard, they are just cut/sized however their company wants them to be) to pants.

I have a very small chest, waist, and narrow shoulders, so I wear a small top. I have large hips, thighs, and butt, so I wear a size 8-10 pants.

So, if you want to correctly say that people may have 4 different sizes in their closets, use something that can be compared, like jeans. I have different sizes in different brands, yes.

I don't think you can compare hunt coats (or any top, for that matter) to pants.

-Kelsey-
WTF? Here they are! (http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/Fruitbat2.jpg)

imapepper
Mar. 15, 2004, 07:55 AM
While I was reading this thread, I started thinking about how sizing of clothing has changed also. I have a pair of jeans that are 10 years old and they are tight for my liking and happen to be a size 8. I also have several pairs of jeans in my wardrobe right now that are a comfy fit and are a size 6. I even have a couple pairs of jeans that are a size 4 (a little tight but wearable right now because I am having a hard time getting to the gym http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I also wear a size 16 Elite hunt coat (same sizing as Grand Prix coats). It all depends on the brand of clothing and how sizes have changed through the years. Yeah Marilyn Monroe wore a size 14 but that same size 14 then probably fits into an 8 or a 10 now. Right now I fall into the healthy catagory as far as weight goes (5'7" and 145) but ideally for me, I like to be around 130-135. I don't NEED to lose weight but since I am a recreational runner, it helps my performance if I am just a little lighter. I also know that much under my ideal weight also hurts my performance because I do not have the stamina to do the distances I like to compete at. It is what you are comfortable at and what makes you feel your best that counts in the long run. As an athlete (rider, runner, dancer, whatever), the ideal weight is the weight you perform best not what people perceive that you should weigh. I would be willing to bet that the person whose weight was the topic of this thread is simply one of those naturally lean people who leads the very active life of a professional rider.

"In riding a horse, we borrow freedom." Helen Thompson

Erin
Mar. 15, 2004, 09:15 PM
Bumping this back up now that it's been edited.

The discussion can continue on, but please confine your comments ONLY to the issue. No comments on individuals.

MistyBlue
Mar. 16, 2004, 05:47 AM
Nope, you're right on that Imapepper. Clothes sizes up until the 70's were running different. A size 14 from back then is actually a size 10 today. Average size difference in clothes is two sizes from then until now. As America became larger by average, so did the clothes. More people buy clohes if they can buy a certain size. The only thing left these days running true to size are European clothes and wedding/formal clothes. If you've ever had to go for a bridesmaid dress, you'll see that if your normal size is a 6, then you have to get a 10 in bridesmaid or wedding gowns to fit you correctly. (personally, I think it's so they can charge you an arm and leg in tailoring that pink taffeta nightmare the bride picked as a bridesmaid dress, LOL)
IMO, very few people who ride NEED to lose weight. Do they look like super-models? No, but then how nice would we look riding in classes with all of us at 6' tall and weighing 110? A darned gaggle of Olive Oyls if you ask me. We're fit and we're fabulous. Doesn't matter what the size on the britches say. A person doesn't ride 5-6 days weekly and end up out of shape. A fit person doesn't need to be a size 2. I honestly think today's perception of asthetic beauty is all mucked up. Marilyn was gorgeous as as (today's) size 10. Sophia (one of my idols) wore a (today's size 12) in her hey-day. Bette wore a (today's) size 12 also. These women were (some still are) gorgeous! They had curves, they had hourglass figures and they weren't sporting sunken cheeckbones and bony butts. And I think any one of them would fantastic on horseback. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

S4zeus
Mar. 16, 2004, 05:56 AM
I am currently at a stage in my life where weight is an issue. I am 6' tall and weigh 190. I carry my weight well and most of it is in my thighs and belly. I wear loose clothing and can hide it but it doesn't hide it from me. There really isn't a point to my post. Except I just needed to get it out. I remember when I was on a swim team and I was so skinny I was ribby. Ok. Thank you for letting me post my own worries.

Common sense is the least common thing in the world.


Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/62832282gErEqu

New Member of the Draftie/Draftie X Clique!

Loco
Mar. 16, 2004, 06:51 AM
Who cares about their weight?? We look up to them/admire them based on their riding ability, not what they look like/weigh/their sexual orientation/other irrelevant facts. Even if they did happen to have an eating disorder then ??? Does that make them any less of a rider/person?? Are they supposed to be perfect because they are in the public eye or something?? Underweight, overweight, drug addicted, eating disordered or not, there is still greatness. That is all that should matter.

Perfect is boring.

foursocks
Mar. 16, 2004, 08:51 AM
Well, that is all that should matter, but it isn't- I think that's the point many here are making. When I was still doing the 3's, there were a couple of juniors about to age out in my barn, so I would often go and watch their rounds at shows, to try to learn from them. One was *very* skinny, like her mom, one was chubby, and one was very wide and short, like *her* mom. They were all really good riders- the skinny one and the wide one rode the large juniors and eq, and the chubby one did the smalls and eq. The best rider of the three was the short/wide girl- she was amazing- she was one of those people who could be gone for two months (off in Europe or somewhere, lucky her), come back and jump around a big course flawlessly. She had really nice horses, but it didn't matter if she hopped on a greenie or a jumpery jumper- she just had talent in her bones. She always saw her spots and whether she was riding her old style big Hanoverian, or her more dainty TB gelding, her rounds were beautiful. But I know it took her a long time to earn her rep- people had to get past the way she looked and simply see how talented she was. I remember more than one person in the stands making nasty comments and then just staring as this girl turned in a perfect round. It was similar for the chubby girl- I had known her from the time we were both on ponies, and I know that sometimes she got passed over for skinnier riders in the eq- she was told once by a judge to lose weight if she wanted to win more. The third rider, the naturally skinny one, was also a very good rider- who sometimes placed over the other two, depsite the fact that sometimes her rounds weren't as good. But her whole picture apparently satisfied the image of the elegant girl rider that the other two did not.

It is a problem in our whole society, and whether people should judge others, especially women, by weight or not, they do. I know I do it now and then, and I am ashamed at myself when I look at someone and realize that I am using her weight (big or small) to judge her as a person- that stinks, and I'd never say anything out loud, because it is unforgivably cruel, rude and unhelpful, but there are lots of people who don't have those scruples.

If I have a friend who is struggling with her weight, one way or the other, I'll do what I can to help or be supportive- that's friendship. But it really is a reflection of our weirdo mixed-up culture that we are so obssessed with being thin, and spend millions of dollars on products to make us so, yet so many of us are morbidly obese, or on the cusp, while others in this land of plenty are starving themselves. This is a discussion that we need to have- not about individuals and their looks, but about our society as a whole and what this shows about our values.

You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that wont change its shape. Jets to Brazil

Tory Relic
Mar. 16, 2004, 08:55 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kels:
And averages lie.

Some women will be a size 2 and perfect for their frame, while another might be a size 2 and morbidly skinny, while yet ANOTHER might be a size 24 and very obsese.

I think there's a fine line between "overweight," "fat," and "skinny." I also think there's a fine line between those terms and "the perfect weight." Everyone has their own views, and it's hard not to want to be on the thin side with all of these images being shoved down our throat, like sbt78lw said. But I try not to judge because I know I've been on a couple sides of that line.

It's about accepting who you are and teaching others to do the same, rather than try to change who you are. Something I wish I had known a few years ago while I was struggling with the disease.

&lt;quote&gt;

Good post, Kels. I am a size 18. I weigh over 200 pounds. I am fat by any measurement. I am reading this thread because I am working on this and have lost about 30 lbs in the last year. It took awhile to put it on, and it will take a while to take it off again. I'm 5'8" and like another poster, a big girl, even when I'm the right weight for my height/frame. My goal weight is 160 and a size 14. I grew up on a farm, could ride before I could walk and have very strong arms and legs, with well developed muscles. So to the poster who said size 14 is overweight, no, it's not always. Clothing sizes vary alot and are not a good basis for correct weight measurement. That's why fitness experts use the BMI.

[This message was edited by Tory Relic on Mar. 16, 2004 at 12:07 PM.]

[This message was edited by Tory Relic on Mar. 16, 2004 at 12:17 PM.]

MistyBlue
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:18 AM
S4Zeus...you must be hiding it exceptionally well then because I just checked out your photo album and I didn't see what your commenting on. You and Zeus are a VERY well matched team, you look wonderful on him. (and he's just handsome as a movie star, very cute guy you have there) I wish my mare and I matched as well.
And Tory Relic, congrats on losing the 30 lbs! Taking it off slowly is the better way to do it. It stays off that way.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

Kels
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:24 AM
MistyBlue- I was thinking the same thing. S4Zeus- you look great for your frame! Like MistyBlue said earlier, if we were all 6' and 110 lbs, we'd look like a bunch of Olive Oyls. Even weight 130 lbs we'd all look funny!

Be who you are, and be proud. That's one of the hardest lessons I've had to learn in the past few years.

-Kelsey-
WTF? Here they are! (http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/Fruitbat2.jpg)

Magnolia
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is a problem in our whole society, and whether people should judge others, especially women, by weight or not, they do. I know I do it now and then, and I am ashamed at myself when I look at someone and realize that I am using her weight (big or small) to judge her as a person- that stinks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I judge people by weight too.... whether I say it or not. And I notice bodies - at the gym, the white women would see a fit woman and comment on "I'd love to look like that".... you NEVER heard that from the black women - they were far more focused on acheiving an actual fitness goal as opposed to a body weight.....

Honestly, I think the "weight issue" is a white, middle/upper class problem.I worked in an office with hispanic women - all curvy GORGEOUS ladies. They were likely "chunky" by our standards, but they always dressed sexy - heels, done-up hair, low cut tops. Then I see heavy black women - they dress sexy, obviously take care and pride in their appearance - (How often do you see a 300 lb white woman in heels with done up hair, a low cut top and a short skirt.... you don't - they are in the corner hiding in a tent dress). Then I had a friend from Turkey - she unabashedly LOVED food - cookies, sweets, bread, you name it. While the 2 of us in the office who were white (my white co-worker - quite thin!) would hide/act ashamed to even consider eating a sweet in front of everyone. Aslihan (overweight) just didn't care. She really enjoyed things.

So it's no wonder that the mostly white, mostly female, mostly upper-middle class sport of riding is ripe with body image issues.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Tory Relic
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
And Tory Relic, congrats on losing the 30 lbs! Taking it off slowly is the better way to do it. It stays off that way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, MistyBlue. That's exactly the plan, go slow, keep it off if I can. Erin, thank you for starting this thread. I read it with great trepidation, and I never thought I'd end up posting my weight and size, but because of so many positive posts, I felt I could. It has been inspirational to me and related to horses in the most definite way because my horse is one thing that encourages me most. I cannot ride the way I rode before I gained all this weight. Long story, but stems from a back injury that stopped me from riding for many years. I had therapy and it healed to an extent but now arthritis is causing trouble and is another reason I must lose weight and strengthen muscles, but being afraid I won't be able to ride at all is what spurs me on. And you guys have helped with the attitude part of it. Thanks so much.

Kels
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is a problem in our whole society, and whether people should judge others, especially women, by weight or not, they do. I know I do it now and then, and I am ashamed at myself when I look at someone and realize that I am using her weight (big or small) to judge her as a person- that stinks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I judge people by weight too.... whether I say it or not. And I notice bodies - at the gym, the white women would see a fit woman and comment on "I'd love to look like that".... you NEVER heard that from the black women - they were far more focused on acheiving an actual fitness goal as opposed to a body weight.....

Honestly, I think the "weight issue" is a white, middle/upper class problem.I worked in an office with hispanic women - all curvy GORGEOUS ladies. They were likely "chunky" by our standards, but they always dressed sexy - heels, done-up hair, low cut tops. Then I see heavy black women - they dress sexy, obviously take care and pride in their appearance - (How often do you see a 300 lb white woman in heels with done up hair, a low cut top and a short skirt.... you don't - they are in the corner hiding in a tent dress). Then I had a friend from Turkey - she unabashedly LOVED food - cookies, sweets, bread, you name it. While the 2 of us in the office who were white (my white co-worker - quite thin!) would hide/act ashamed to even consider eating a sweet in front of everyone. Aslihan (overweight) just didn't care. She really enjoyed things.

So it's no wonder that the mostly white, mostly female, mostly upper-middle class sport of riding is ripe with body image issues.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, SO TRUE. I guess I never thought about it!!

-Kelsey-
WTF? Here they are! (http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/Fruitbat2.jpg)

MAD
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
It is a problem in our whole society, and whether people should judge others, especially women, by weight or not, they do. I know I do it now and then, and I am ashamed at myself when I look at someone and realize that I am using her weight (big or small) to judge her as a person- that stinks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Glad you posted this a week or two AFTER I met you. I'm so damn insecure I NEVER would have ventured out and met you BEFORE this post! I'm sure we are all guilty of this at times, but BRAVO to you for having the guts for posting it.

RugBug
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:24 AM
There are huge problems with judging someone's weight and health by a clothing size. Not just that sizes vary according to manufacturers, as had been pointed out already, but that people's height/shape has a significant effect on what size they wear. Clothing size has no bearing on whether someone is healthy/unhealthy.

I was recently on a shopping trip with a friend and I was sort of sad to see her trying on size 2-4's. Admittedly, I was jealous. I wanted to trade my 10's for her 2's. But then again, she's only 5' tall. Gosh, you think that had something to do with the difference in sizes? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But I was still hung up on a number.

I had a friend live with me for a month while her apartment was being worked on. She was ran track for our college and was very fit/healthy. I can't count the number of times in one month that she told me how surprised she was at how healthy I ate, how much I exercised and how active I was. Why? She had judged me solely on my size. She thought I sat around doing nothing every night. That's what I must be doing to be my size, right? At least in her world, that's what I must be doing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Our perceptions of others are based on our experience. CGR says that a size 8-10 is overweight to her...because she's judging the world from her size 0 perspective. My size 2 friend wants my waist, because she's judging from her "no-waist" perspective, I want her legs, b/c I view the world from the "large thigh" perspective. If we could admit that our views are skewed for many different reasons, it would be easier to realize that larger/smaller sizes don't really equate with healthy/unhealthy. It depends on the people.

And Courtney01, I'm sorry that people have made you feel bad because you're naturally thin. Don't listen to them. You know if you are healthy or not. Mean people are just that...mean. But trading being skinny for being overweight would just be trading for a different set of problems.

I had a hollywood movie producer look me straight in the eye and tell me it was too bad I was so fat because I would've been a very pretty girl. I hadn't asked for his opinion but he felt the need to tell me. (I was babysitting his kid...for the first and last time...Grrrrr). That left me devasted for a really long time. But his perspective was crap, and while I still deal with feeling ugly because of being a larger person, I can't let the insensitive, rude people of the world dictate my worth. Besides, he was short and bald, wasn't like he was some perfect specimen of manhood. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

hb
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Tory Relic:
My goal weight is 160 and a size 14.

Okay, here is something interesting. I am also 5'8". I am in my late 30s. Since high school my weight has fluctuated quite a bit. When I weigh 160lbs I am a size 10. When I am a size 14 I weigh 190lbs. Here is someone the same height as me who is 2 sizes different than me when she weighs the same weight.

To me this PROOVES that a clothing size or a weight number are not a really good indication of how fit or how large a particular person is.

Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
Overweight to me is someone who may be carry some extra pounds around the belly, arse,or have a bigger frame but are also fit, eat healthy etc.

I really have a problem with the statement that someone who has a bigger frame can be overweight even if they are fit and not carrying "extra pounds". There is a range of acceptable weights for each height, due to body type. I would not expect a 16h Thoroughbred to weigh the same as a 16h draft cross, but I would not consider the draft cross "overweight" if it was fit and not carrying fat, just because it weighs more than the Thoroughbred.


Personal note - this year I hit my highest weight ever. I didn't even realize it. When I weighed myself in January it was a wakeup call. My BMI is in the "obese" range.

I am taking this seriously not because of appearance but because of health issues (read about the risks of heart disease, cancer etc. for people who are obese) and because I want to do a higher activity level this year. I have not competed with my horse in about 10 years, been just a pleasure/trail rider for that time and I really would like to go to some shows this summer. I know I need to be more fit to maintain the activity level needed to ride my horse enough to get HER fit enough to do a cross country course.

I started a moderate exercise program and started watching what I eat. No fad diet, just eating less of what I normally eat and being sure to have a healthy mix of food. No extreme exercise, just walking 2 miles a day 5 days a week and riding 4 days a week instead of just on the weekends. I have lost 8lbs in 6 weeks. This is slow progress but I figure in 6 months or so I will be at a my interim goal weight and if I have changed my habits then I can keep that weight off for a long time. And maybe even lose more if it feels right. I don't want to set unrealistic goals, as in weigh as little as I did when I was 20, but I do want to be healthy and able to do a higher activity level.

Although I have only lost 8lbs I most importantly FEEL much better, healthier than I did when I weighed this weight on the way UP the scale. That gives me the encouragement to keep going.

Another note. Hate to say this, but WEIGHT AND FITNESS DO AFFECT YOUR RIDING ABILITY. If you are not fit you cannot hold two-point, do not have the strength to effectively half-halt with your seat. If you can hold two point while galloping a training level cross country course or can use your seat (which means your "core
muscles") to half-halt effectively, then you are pretty fit.

If you are carrying extra weight it is harder to balance. If you carry extra weight on your thighs it is harder to use your leg and harder to use your seat. The weight gets in the way.

I know this from experience. My weight has fluctuated from 140lbs to 230lbs in the 20+ years since I reached my current height, and I have ridden horses the whole time. I have ridden when I was in between a size 6 & 8, I have ridden when I was a size 18. Although I am a more knowledgable rider now it was easier to put my limited knowledge into practice when I did not have extra fat padding getting in the way of my using my legs, and weak stomach/back muscles getting in the way of using my seat.

If you are a skinny rider, try wrapping a gel saddle pad around each thigh and then go for a ride. You will understand. If you are a heavier rider, try losing even 10lbs. and see if the riding gets easier.

This is NOT intended as a knock on heavy riders. I am a heavy rider (at least for now). It is ONLY what I have EXPERIENCED.

I weigh more now than I did a year ago (I gained a lot of weight in the last 6 months of last year) but I feel pretty good because know I am headed in the right direction.

BTW, most of the organizations promoting health (American Cancer Society, American Heart Association) state that for overweight and obese people a weight loss of even 10% of total body weight can have a SIGNIFICANT impacton your chances of getting heart disease and cancer. And if you read a newspaper last week you probably saw something about the recent studies showing that obesity is now barely trailing smoking as the most serious, yet preventable, cause of deaths in this country.

Magnolia
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:27 AM
Actually, I should further explain my remarks- I'm not actively looking at people and saying "OMG, she's so thin she must be a witch/bad person/nice person etc." - it's more like "Jeez, she should know better than to wear that with those hips....". (I know, the pot calling the kettle black!)

And I think I only notice extremes - really thin or really fat. But yeah, when I see someone extreme, I do notice the problem... it crosses my mind. And I'm sure people have done the same to me.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Kels
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:34 AM
It is so hard to judge by weight only because muscle weighs more than fat.

I have friends who weigh 105-110 lbs. but they have NO muscle. I weigh 130, and granted, I'm bigger than them, but I have a lot more muscle.

-Kelsey-
WTF? Here they are! (http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/Fruitbat2.jpg)

RugBug
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:41 AM
Magnolia:

I didn't take your post wrong. I will readily admit that I judge people by their weight...I don't judge their character but I do a "she looks good, she's too skinny, she's too fat" kind of thing. Pretty hypocritical of me, eh?

But I know that my opinions are skewed. I've recently been watching one of my favorite TV shows, BUffy the Vampire Slayer, with my roommate who has never seen the show. She gave me horrified looks when I called Season one Buffy "Chunky Buffy." The actress was very normal sized...not chunky. Just recently, after watching a Season 4 episode, we were remarking on how skinny/tiny Buffy is and how another actress who is probably a size 10 looks like a whale in comparison. And yet, even with the fact that we know the other girl is a healthy, acceptable weight, we both would rather be skinny like Buffy.

Same with riders. I want to look like the toothpicks and a whole lot of people tell me I should look like the toothpicks (including my toothpick trainer...although she only does son indirectly) but I never will unless I starve myself. Talk about unhealthy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

Tory Relic
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hb:

Another note. Hate to say this, but WEIGHT AND FITNESS DO AFFECT YOUR RIDING ABILITY. If you are not fit you cannot hold two-point, do not have the strength to effectively half-halt with your seat. If you can hold two point while galloping a training level cross country course or can use your seat (which means your "core
muscles") to half-halt effectively, then you are pretty fit.

If you are carrying extra weight it is harder to balance. If you carry extra weight on your thighs it is harder to use your leg and harder to use your seat. The weight gets in the way.

I know this from experience. My weight has fluctuated from 140lbs to 230lbs in the 20+ years since I reached my current height, and I have ridden horses the whole time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HB, we have some common experience, except I wasn't riding when I gained the weight, and when I started trying to ride beyond just hacking on the buckle, I noticed the weight got in my way and is very detrimental to my ability, which at one time, was pretty good. I am much more motivated by the fact that I can't ride as well with the weight than by health issues, though some of those do impact the riding -- stamina, back disk problems, etc -- if I wasn't motivated to ride, I'd probably not be as motivated to lose the weight. I wish you luck with your program and your competition. I'd love for you to post your progress with your horse and competition as you go along.

hb
Mar. 16, 2004, 11:23 AM
Tory Relic, check your PTs.

SBT
Mar. 16, 2004, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Courtney01:

I am super skinny, so I guess this means I shouldn't aim for my goals because you "don't want to see super-skinny riders". The only thing bugging me on this thread is there seems to be an underlying tone that super skinny girls posting here, are in denial of having anorexia (or something similar) when it's simply not the case.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say that. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I have nothing against fat or skinny riders. My problem is when the "skinny" is exemplified by the media (such as putting a picture of an uber-skinny rider on the front page of a website visited often by young girls). I do know that not ALL skinny people are anorexic. But when you see someone who is quite literally skin and bones, with calves as thin as jump poles, you KNOW something is very wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:

OK, so your body is perfect [though you are just beginning to believe it] and you don't want to be "forced" to watch less than perfection. I'd say that you should take up a new sport, such as Synchronized Swimming.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif That's just funny. My body is FAR from perfect. I have no problem watching less than perfection. My problem (as I explained above) is that this "less than perfection," ie. uber-skinniness, more often than not IS perfection in our society. My weight may be pretty much spot-on for my height, but then I see uber-skinny girls being promoted as ideal, and suddenly I become fat in comparison. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but I find it demeaning. Public images of uber-skinny girls are demeaning to me, the average chick, because they silently insinuate that I am not thin enough, pretty enough, successful enough, sexy enough, or otherwise good enough as a woman. My beef is not so much with the skinny girls themselves, but with society's insistence that skinny is ideal.

Again, I'm probably not making any sense whatsoever, and I still get the feeling I'm not adequately expressing my view on the subject. I guess I'm not entirely sure WHY uber-skinny images bother me, but for some reason they do.

"Good horses train themselves. It's the common ones you can't figure out what to do with."
~Jim Dennis 1923-2004

foursocks
Mar. 16, 2004, 01:53 PM
Um, actually, I wrote that (I guess magnolia was quoting my post). And I don't think it is brave to admit it- I feel like a total jerk for doing what I wholeheartedly condemn in this society- judging people by weirdo, unrealistic standards is stupid and regressive! And although it's not like I can't go out in public without doing it, the few times I catch myself at it I feel terrible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
It is a problem in our whole society, and whether people should judge others, especially women, by weight or not, they do. I know I do it now and then, and I am ashamed at myself when I look at someone and realize that I am using her weight (big or small) to judge her as a person- that stinks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Glad you posted this a week or two AFTER I met you. I'm so damn insecure I NEVER would have ventured out and met you BEFORE this post! I'm sure we are all guilty of this at times, but BRAVO to you for having the guts for posting it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that wont change its shape. Jets to Brazil

S4zeus
Mar. 16, 2004, 02:18 PM
This is within the same topic but kinda different. Is anyone that is worried about their weight participate in any support groups about their weight? I was in TOPS for a couple of years and I know that helped alot. Within the last two months I have become increasingly depressed about my weight and I know that doesn't help me lose any of it. Is anyone interested in forming a support group within COTH to help people just get feelings out or to ask for suggestions or favorite recipes? With all the work that I do when I am not homeschooling I don't have time to join TOPS again but I would love to do something via email. Is anyone else interested in this. We could start up a yahoo group or something or just take down emails and support each other. Any takers?

Common sense is the least common thing in the world.


Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/62832282gErEqu

New Member of the Draftie/Draftie X Clique!

budman
Mar. 16, 2004, 02:40 PM
You know, I think part of what we need to do is divorce ourselves from the numbers. I'm 5'6", and at my best (right after basic training) I was a size 12 at 165 lbs. With 20% body fat at 24. Realistically, I could have healthily taken off 5 more lbs, although I would have had to nearly starve AND continue that manic amount of exercise. The kicker is, I was still 20 pounds over my so-called ideal body weight: technically obese.

So every month in the Army I had to get weighed and have my body fat calculated, along with girls who wore the same size, weighed less, and had nearly twice my body fat. We've got to get off the scale and really focus on what we eat and how we exercise.

That being said, I am currently fat at a size 18 and 220 pounds. I am not morbidly obese, although I think I fit the pounds-from-ideal criteria (146, impossible, while 175 would be very healthy). And a large part of my weight problem stems from back problems which curtail my exercise. However, I am now trying to strictly regulate a healthy diet and get more fit.

This post may not quite fit the discussion, but the numbers have nothing to do with who you are and how fit or healthy you are.

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

Albion
Mar. 16, 2004, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And I don't think it is brave to admit it- I feel like a total jerk for doing what I wholeheartedly condemn in this society- judging people by weirdo, unrealistic standards is stupid and regressive! And although it's not like I can't go out in public without doing it, the few times I catch myself at it I feel terrible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think a lot of people do this - I don't 'judge' people in the sense of saying, 'Gosh, that person is overweight and they must be lazy slobs' or 'Gosh, that girl is skinny, I wonder what it's like to live on one lettuce leaf a day?' - but yes, I have been known to give a gasp at people that are wearing just plain ugly outfits, no matter what they look like. Two of my good friends are definitely 'overweight' - and you know what, I pretty much never notice, because they always wear flattering, well-pulled together outfits, and always look cute and hip. Are they heavier? Yup, most definitely. But they realize that miniskirts and tube tops are NOT the way to go - neither are mumus. I wish everyone - size 0 or size 20 - had a friend to go, 'Oh honey, I don't think that's the most flattering outfit for you, why don't you try this one?' I don't care if you ARE a size 0, I still don't want to see your ass hanging out of a pair of low rise jeans. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif 'Size' is such a funny thing - I wear a 6 or an 8 or even (gasp) a 10 on my hips, but I have a lovely floofy ball skirt that is a size 4, and that fits on my waist. My hips are (average) a size 8 or 6 - but my waist is a size 4. I have a sizable chest, but I still prefer polo shirts from the Old Navy's boy department - which fit loosely. So where do I fit? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif That's my issue with looking at size alone. What does the whole PICTURE say? I've met people who are much heavier than me who are in better shape physically. I'm lazy, I work out 5 or 6 days a week, but I'm no marathon runner, I'm not terribly fit, and I have a serious addiction to coffee & cigarettes. I can eat like a horse, although I do eat a lot of healthy food. So who's really healthier - that super-fit size 10 or 12, or me? Sure, I don't have to battle with issues of weight-related health problems in either direction, but I'd die if you told me to go run 2 miles.

sbt, I get what you're saying - and it makes sense - but the pendulum WILL swing back the other way, or focus on something else - eventually. I think one of the best ways to look at what a culture finds sexy or attractive is to look at the art (this is, of course, easier for stuff that's a couple of hundred years old) - you'll see rounded bellies emphasized here, Rubenesque roundness (definitely what 'we' would consider overweight) emphasised there, bound breasts & corseted waists over there ... and so on.

The development of image is so interesting in a society - whether it be the image of a person, or the image of what's 'perfect'. It's constantly changing, in the grand scheme of things. I stick by my statement that it's all about being HEALTHY for YOU.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

showmethemoney
Mar. 16, 2004, 03:06 PM
Well this is interesting, I have had anorexia nervosia for years. I was at my lowest weight of 55 lbs, a year ago, I am now 100lbs.. I hate when people come up to me and tell me Im skinny,I almost died, I actually went into cardiac arrest in school.. I was unable to open presents over christmas, cause I could not pull the bow.. I am a great rider, but along time ago, a trainer told me I was over weight, I weighed at that time120lbs, I am 5'8.. Needless to say I started the laxitives, eating an apple a day, maybe a carrot, and water. Let me tell you I will battle this everyday for the rest of my life.. My trainer whom I'm w/ now was a anorexic too, and she helps me out so much, there are days when Im just too tired and she puuls me through.. This whole topic on the weight issue was interesting, don't let weight ever bring you to where I am now, cause some people will never get out of it..

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 16, 2004 at 09:18 PM.]

SBT
Mar. 16, 2004, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showmethemoney:
Well this is interesting, I have had anorexia nervosia for years. I was at my lowest weight of 55 lbs, a year ago, I am now 100lbs.. I hate when people come up to me and tell me Im skinny,I almost died, I actually went into cardiac arrest in school.. I was unable to open presents over christmas, cause I could not pull the bow.. I am a great rider, but along time ago, a trainer told me I was over weight, I weighed at that time120lbs, I am 5'8.. Needless to say I started the laxitives, eating an apple a day, maybe a carrot, and water. Let me tell you I will battle this everyday for the rest of my life.. My trainer whom I'm w/ now was a anorexic too, and she helps me out so much, there are days when Im just too tired and she puuls me through.. This whole topic on the weight issue was interesting, don't let weight ever bring you to where I am now, cause some people will never get out of it...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, so where's the trainer that told you to diet??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I would so love to pummel the living daylights out of him/her for doing that to you. And I'm sure it was the image of super-skinny top riders that lead this trainer to the conclusion that to win, his/her students would have to look the same way. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

"Good horses train themselves. It's the common ones you can't figure out what to do with."
~Jim Dennis 1923-2004

Tory Relic
Mar. 16, 2004, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hb:
Tory Relic, check your PTs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I have and you should have a reply. Thanks for the PT.

PorkchopsMommy
Mar. 16, 2004, 04:11 PM
I'm sure somebody mentioned this already, but His Georgeness doesn't help when he so helpfully points out riders who need to lose weight in Jumping Clinic. Yes, it is true that a fit person rides better; however, be that as it may, there is no arbitrary or set "look" to a fit person, nor do our already weight-obsessed teenage riders need what amounts to carte blanche from God to have an eating disorder! I myself am one of those "skinnies" too-- 5'8" and a size 2/4. However--again-- be that as it may, I still look at myself and see room for improvement, which goes to show me that body confidence is all relative. I think it's often incredibly hard for us to see in the mirror what other people see when they look at us; we are simply too biased (whether for good or for bad!) to be able to really "see" ourselves clearly!

Not a shred of evidence exists in support of the idea that life is, in fact, serious.
--Douglas Adams

showmethemoney
Mar. 16, 2004, 07:09 PM
To sbt78lw
BB Princess

It was a pretty well known trainer up and down the coast, I will never say a name,I hate running people into the ground. But all of the students were on diets, because if we weighed over a certain amount and started to look fat on a horse/pony then we had to diet.. That is why I left it almost killed me. My new trainer had the same thing happen to her when she lived in Fla, but she will also fight this for the rest of her life.. One of her friends died a few years ago because of an eating disorder. I will struggle and so will anyone who lets someone interrupt their lives w/ this disease..

LimoWrek
Mar. 16, 2004, 07:53 PM
Erin. What are your personal views.

----
Crack is Whack!
Whitney doesn't do crack... Crack is cheap!

HARROLDhasmyheart
Mar. 16, 2004, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showmethemoney:
Well this is interesting, I have had anorexia nervosia for years. I was at my lowest weight of 55 lbs, a year ago, I am now 100lbs.. I hate when people come up to me and tell me Im skinny,I almost died, I actually went into cardiac arrest in school.. I was unable to open presents over christmas, cause I could not pull the bow.. I am a great rider, but along time ago, a trainer told me I was over weight, I weighed at that time120lbs, I am 5'8.. Needless to say I started the laxitives, eating an apple a day, maybe a carrot, and water. Let me tell you I will battle this everyday for the rest of my life.. My trainer whom I'm w/ now was a anorexic too, and she helps me out so much, there are days when Im just too tired and she puuls me through.. This whole topic on the weight issue was interesting, don't let weight ever bring you to where I am now, cause some people will never get out of it..

[This message was edited by Erin on Mar. 16, 2004 at 09:18 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's really interesting that you say that your trainer helps you out so much, in a positive way, because it's the EXACT same thing for me. Even though I only see my trainer a couple of times a week, I can trust her and tell her everything...The only thing that sucks is I have gotten pulled out of a lesson before because it was obvious that I hadn't eaten. :-/

And just know that that trainer that told you to diet was probably on something very, very, strong, because that is a load of CRAP. I'm with Sbt78lw, I'll help y'all pummell the living daylights out of this person! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

* * * * * * * *

"if riding were only blue ribbons and bright lights, i would have quit long ago."

bounce once if you believe in diaganols!

i &lt;3 my ponies!

ponies are small horses. small horses are big ponies. big ponies are monsterous minatures. so a minature horse is the same as a pony is the same as a horse, right?
http://community.webshots.com/user/crazypony14

plottwist
Mar. 16, 2004, 08:38 PM
sbt, I'm not sure when you say:

"Again, I'm probably not making any sense whatsoever, and I still get the feeling I'm not adequately expressing my view on the subject."

...whether you are sincere, or you are using this as a cover because you really come off to me as a course, self centered, unsympathetic (I'll stop name calling now) snob. That picture you're complaining about wasn't put there to bother you. It pointed out who happened to win the WEF class that week. If you didn't like it, you didn't have to look at it, let alone critique it. Well, actually you spent more time bashing.

Same applies to other forms of media. "Uber-sinny" has been around long enough for most people to "get it". As most experts will tell you, eating disorders which lead to being too skinny or too fat have litle to do with public print ads in fashion magazines and everything to do about what goes on in the person! Ie, depression, lack of self worth....

I don't care for alot of your posts, so I usually don't read them. But I don't complain that you post here, except this time. If this bothers you, sorry, but you seem to be bothered by things totally out of your control.

And some parting words of wisdom, you shouldn't care if you're not as skinny as someone else, nor feel demeaned by that. It's who you are on the inside, NOT the outside that matters most.

Rifter
Mar. 16, 2004, 08:57 PM
I am ashamed to post any of this, but I feel like there'll be something cathartic about it. For as long as I can remember (I'm talking since I was probably 5 or 6), I have dealt with binge eating disorder. I remember, when I was younger, sneaking food into my room to eat whenever I was sad or extremely angry. It was never about being hungry - there was plenty of food to go around in my house. It was about not having a healthy way of dealing with intense emotions and finding some sort of empty solace in eating food. This problem was compounded by riding. I was always a somewhat chubby kid... and when I started maturing... it all got worse. At first it didn't really bother me. Around the time I turned 12, though, I begin to notice the other girls in the show ring... so many of them were tall, thin, beautiful. I envied them and wanted to be just like them. Though I was a fairly talented western rider, I became self-conscious and began to doubt my abilities. This only worsened the binging, as it became just another trigger. When I started riding hunt seat at 16, the problem continued to worsen. In this discipline, I found body image to be even more of an issue. I'd go to a show, not pin well in eq classes against beautiful girls, and be convinced that it had to do with my appearance... which would trigger even more binging. Disgusted with my lack of control and with my appearance, I became more and more depressed... even suicidal. It's still a struggle. Everyday is a struggle. Medications help to take the edge off and therapy is somewhat beneficial, but everyday continues to be a struggle. Some days I binge, somedays I don't. On the days that I do, I feel worthless, repulsive, disgusting, unworthy. Some days I substitute other compulsive behaviors, like self-mutilation, drinking, etc, and this just adds to the cycle of self-hatred. I'm 5'6" and currently weigh 175 pounds. Not the most I've weighed (at my highest, I weighed 192lbds), but still high enough to cause me even greater pain and self-loathing.
I'm not saying riding's emphasis on thinness has caused this problem in me, but it has certainly "added fuel to the fire."
This is deeply personal and I can't believe I'm sharing this on a public bulletin board... but I feel like I need to for others who suffer with this problem. I wish I had some great advice or some superior insight into the condition and how to put it behind me, but I don't.

*-Rifter-*
Proud Member of the Dirty Grey Horse and the Disgruntled College Student Cliques

Linus
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlotTwist:
Same applies to other forms of media. "Uber-sinny" has been around long enough for most people to "get it".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain what "getting it" means. Ignoring it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As most experts will tell you, eating disorders which lead to being too skinny or too fat have litle to do with public print ads in fashion magazines and everything to do about what goes on in the person! Ie, depression, lack of self worth....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Most experts will tell you that the eating disorders with which we are most familiar here (anorexia and bulimia) are a largely Western phenomena, and that when Western media invades a previously healthy society, these particular disorders are soon to follow.

Anorexia is almost unheard of in societies without a skinny fetish.

There was a story a few years back, about what happened when one of Aaron Spelling's anorexia vehicles (I'm thinking Beverly Hills 90210) started airing in __________ (I forget what country, for some reason I'm thinking Malaysia?). There was an almost immediate surge in the number of anorectics there.

You're quite correct, of course, in noting that individual psychological traits come into play here. But you only have to look at the incidence of eating disorders in various societies to realize that indeed there IS something "cultural" going on. Depression, lack of self-worth, and so on, rarely lead to anorexia in Samoa, for instance. How do you explain that?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And some parting words of wisdom, you shouldn't care if you're not as skinny as someone else, nor feel demeaned by that. It's who you are on the inside, NOT the outside that matters most.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A wonderful philosophy, but very difficult for adolescent girls to adopt when everyone and everything around them says it's not true. Including, for starters, GM, the equitation ring, ...

Beezer
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:25 PM
I admit upfront that I have not read most of this thread or others like it. I think the reason will become obvious.

The best way to describe my relationship with food (and my body) is "adversarial." I am 43 years old and have NEVER been able to maintain a "normal" weight. I am the definition of yo-yo. I could give you all the reasons my therapist and I figured out in years of sessions, but honestly -- why should you care? I don't expect you to. But, despite all those sessions, I still have issues with my weight; I still, yes, feel suicidal at times about it; and, yes, I do still get very hurt and very distressed about weight discussions, even when I'm not involved. So, how's that for a neurosis?

I so tortured my body with appetite suppressants and laxatives that, to this day, I cannot take any kind of pill without getting the dry heaves. I so abused my body by denying it food that I stopped having my period for months at a time; I wound up going through premature menopause in my mid-30s. My metabolism is so screwed up that I can now gain weight eating much, much less than what I should be able to because my body goes into "starvation shut down mode" -- which explains why, when I was recently laid up for 15 months with multiple knee surgeries, I managed to gain more than 50 pounds on soup, broth and salads. (It's also why I agonized over posting pictures of Topper and me -- I could just imagine what people were saying: "Look at that FAT COW!!" Lord knows, I was already saying it myself. As I said, how's that for a neurosis?)

Where most people can look back at defining moments in their lives like high school graduation, I see moments that sent me into a tailspin -- a comment about my "chubby cheeks" in a picture made me not eat for weeks; when I ballooned the other way because of some uncontrollable upset and someone commented on it, I would balloon even more because, dammit, it's my f-ing body.

Much of this was and is tied to my riding. I am and always have been a broad-shoulder, big boobed kinda gal; at 5-9 and a bit, I am just never gonna be some petite little thing. Even when at my near-hospitalized worst, when I weighed about 95 pounds, I was pi$$ed as he$$ that I was still a bleeping size 6. But, by damn, I won all my medals that year. And when I hit another low (high?) several years on as an adult, I started finally winning again in eq and medals. I think I made it down to a size 8. When I see pictures of myself from then, I logically can see that that person was terribly, terribly thin and horribly unwell; but in my heart, I think: Damn, I looked hot.

I'm on the downswing again; I've lost about half of the weight I gained with the knees. My husband, who has remained steadfast through more than 20 years of this, tells me that he honestly doesn't care what size I am, as long as I am comfortable and happy with myself. I don't think I will ever be that, but I think I may finally be old enough and wise enough to figure out what WILL work for me, to enable me to enjoy being comfortable in my skin -- whatever size it is at the moment.

So, here's my round-about advice to all of us: As my doctor said not long ago, "Cut yourself some slack and give yourself permission to be kind to yourself." Sorry, folks, ain't none of us perfect, and being fat, thin or in-between does not bring you closer to that unattainable ideal and it does not inherently make you a better person than someone of a different body size. Lord knows I've been all of them and my faults just stuck right there with me. The issues at the heart of any under- or overeating disorder are remarkably similar, and bashing someone with either one about it may make you feel better but it sure as hell ain't helping them.

As I said, I know. I've been there, all ways, many, many times.

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

Linus
Mar. 16, 2004, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
I have nothing against fat or skinny riders. My problem is when the "skinny" is exemplified by the media (such as putting a picture of an uber-skinny rider on the front page of a website visited often by young girls). I do know that not ALL skinny people are anorexic. But when you see someone who is quite literally skin and bones, with calves as thin as jump poles, you KNOW something is very wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not quite so willing to make that leap, but I'm glad you brought this topic up. And I'm glad you continue defending a point that I do, in general, agree with.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but I find it demeaning. Public images of uber-skinny girls are demeaning to me, the average chick, because they silently insinuate that I am not thin enough, pretty enough, successful enough, sexy enough, or otherwise good enough as a woman. My beef is not so much with the skinny girls themselves, but with society's insistence that skinny is ideal.

Again, I'm probably not making any sense whatsoever, and I still get the feeling I'm not adequately expressing my view on the subject. I guess I'm not entirely sure WHY uber-skinny images bother me, but for some reason they do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too.

I have no problem with seeing the uber-skinnies in real life, in the media, wherever.

I dislike that these are the images held up as the ideal. But I could probably live with that, too. Lots of "ideals" are unattainable to everyday people, without causing us particular harm.

The REAL problem is when that is held up not only as the ideal, but the NORM--and everything else is a deviation. *This* is the current situation, and it's crap. Look at this thread, and the many others like it.

How many have signed on, revealed their height/weight/clothing size (all perfectly healthy, or "normal" from any reasonable standard), and then posted that they feel fat? Abnormal? When they ARE the norm?

THAT is the problem. We have a "weight norm" that isn't even close to the reality! (Or, for that matter, what could conceivably BE the reality, even with Jenny-Craig for all.) What we see represented--in the media, in the equitation ring, wherever--doesn't even have one-fifth of a percentage point of the variation in weight that we see in real, everyday life.

And so every time I see a rail-thin model or equitation star or whatever, I cringe inside. I'm glad, actually, that I still do that, because it means I'm consciously aware of what these images mean, what they used to mean (and do!) to me, and that I'm aware that they are NOT "the" reality, not even close to it, but an infinitesimal segment of the wiiiiiide variety of what the female body looks like.

And that what I see in these images is never, ever going to be me.

(Gah, THAT took a long time to say.)

So I don't think there's anything wrong with your reaction to "the" picture, sbt, nothing at all! PLEASE, for your own sanity, keep questioning these images.

And that goes for all of us.

HARROLDhasmyheart
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:21 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And some parting words of wisdom, you shouldn't care if you're not as skinny as someone else, nor feel demeaned by that. It's who you are on the inside, NOT the outside that matters most.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's the problem. (I) shouldn't care. It shoudln't matter what others think, what other's say. But it does. It's so easy for someone to say that you should not feel affected, and that it is what's on the inside that matters.

I'm not trying to be rude, and I apologize if that's how I'm coming off, but this is the kind of thing that you will never understand "why" unless you've been there. And believe me, if it were still my choice, it would be what's on the INSIDE that counts. However, seeing as eating disorders are a downward spiral, it's hard to pull yourself out of the storm. Or so to speak.

* * * * * * * *

"if riding were only blue ribbons and bright lights, i would have quit long ago."

bounce once if you believe in diaganols!

i &lt;3 my ponies!

ponies are small horses. small horses are big ponies. big ponies are monsterous minatures. so a minature horse is the same as a pony is the same as a horse, right?
http://community.webshots.com/user/crazypony14

Rifter
Mar. 16, 2004, 10:37 PM
Woah, let's cut PlotTwist a break. The sentiments expressed at the end of the post are admirable. And I'm sure he/she understands that it's easier said than done. If we could all think like that, this world would be a nicer place. However, we don't... which is why we're having this discussion in the first place...

*-Rifter-*
Proud Member of the Dirty Grey Horse and the Disgruntled College Student Cliques

MAD
Mar. 17, 2004, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
I'll say this one more time: I think famous riders that are VERY thin or VERY fat (note capitalization here!) are a disgrace to the sport in that they promote the wrong image. I don't think they are bad people or bad riders, and I certainly wouldn't approach one of them to voice my opinion. Nor would I expect them to do anything about it. But I wouldn't make a point to support that rider. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
I think I'm going to get off this thread now, because I'm obviously not expressing myself productively. I appear to be coming across as an insensitive jerk, which I'm not. Really. I can't quite seem to explain my views accurately, except to say this: Basically, my feeling is that self-destructive people can do whatever they want with their own lives, but I don't want to be forced to see it. I don't want to see super-skinny riders on websites, just like I don't want to see drugged-out rock stars on prime time TV. I don't want those images shoved down my throat and justified by fame. We seem to find a way to make everything acceptable these days, and I don't like it at all. There is no accountability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
I have nothing against fat or skinny riders. My problem is when the "skinny" is exemplified by the media (such as putting a picture of an uber-skinny rider on the front page of a website visited often by young girls). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
Again, I'm probably not making any sense whatsoever, and I still get the feeling I'm not adequately expressing my view on the subject <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems you are not coherently expressing your view. On this thread you have been outspoken, contradictory and cruel. Now it is the media's fault? Partially, I agree. And if you must complain about something or someone, better for you to pick on them than individuals that are too thin or heavy, that you do or do not (?) have problems with...
as Magnolia said way back in this thread, that what is interesting about our sport, is that all body types can excel. Honestly, no one is "perfect". Or for that matter, thinks they are, truly.
Plot Twist, I agree.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by PlotTwist:
That picture...
If you didn't like it, you didn't have to look at it, let alone critique it. Well, actually you spent more time bashing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by MAD on Mar. 17, 2004 at 07:29 AM.]

budman
Mar. 17, 2004, 05:15 AM
Beezer, thank you for sharing your story with us. We loff you. I don't know if it helps any, but we especially, who only know your personality, loff you very much.

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

plottwist
Mar. 17, 2004, 05:34 AM
Linus, the six foot models who weigh 100 lbs are specifically of whom I speak. I'm not 6 foot and will never weigh 100 lbs.

My ED has nothing to do with these "uber-skinny" people. It comes from within and shows it's ugliness by the fact that I am overweight. And like Beezer have always fought for control of my weight. BTW, thanks for your post Beezer!!

budman
Mar. 17, 2004, 06:49 AM
Tory Relic, check your PTs

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

AKM
Mar. 17, 2004, 07:16 AM
I'll throw in another 'skinny point of view'. I'm 5'9 and weigh 120, and that is the most I've ever weighed. I was under 100lbs and the same height through most of my teens and received a continual barrage of disparaging comments.
What I find upsetting in these posts is the generalization that by looking, you can tell if someone is an "unhealthy" or "healthy" type of skinny. There are those of us that appear unhealthy, but are in reality just fine. Of course there are extremes, but most people seem eager to place people into the unhealthy skinny/fat category. Please remember appearances can be deceiving.
I am also disturbed by the following comment by SBT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think famous riders that are VERY thin or VERY fat (note capitalization here!) are a disgrace to the sport in that they promote the wrong image. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No one should be considered a disgrace because of their weight. Period. Why should a rider who is over or underweight, who takes excellent care of their horses and rides with skill, somehow be worth less than a rider who fits into your definition of an optimal weight range?
For Courtney01 and Anyplace Farm: it's good to know about other skinny people on Coth. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Eventhough I've gained weight I still find it hard to get over my old habits of never wearing shorts or sleeveless shirts, avoiding bathingsuits at all costs, praying for winter with all those 'cover-up' clothes... I'm sending lots of warm thoughts your way!
Lastly, I wanted to say that I've greatly enjoyed all the comments on this topic, even those that differed from my own view, and all the personal stories!

Tory Relic
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:
Beezer, thank you for sharing your story with us. We loff you. I don't know if it helps any, but we especially, who only know your personality, loff you very much.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I echo this. I've read alot of Beezer's posts and respect her as a person and horse woman. Even more as a person now. Thanks for sharing, Beezer.

Tory Relic
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:04 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by budman:
Tory Relic, check your PTs
[QUOTE]

checked and replied. My apologies to those whom have PT'd me and have not gotten answers, I'm not in the habit of using them and don't check them regularly. I will do better if you all will keep talking to me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I appreciate the feedback and conversation.

Tory Relic
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AKM:
I'll throw in another 'skinny point of view'. I'm 5'9 and weigh 120, and that is the most I've ever weighed. I was under 100lbs and the same height through most of my teens and received a continual barrage of disparaging comments.
What I find upsetting in these posts is the generalization that by looking, you can tell if someone is an "unhealthy" or "healthy" type of skinny. There are those of us that appear unhealthy, but are in reality just fine. Of course there are extremes, but most people seem eager to place people into the unhealthy skinny/fat category. Please remember appearances can be deceiving.
I am also disturbed by the following comment by SBT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think famous riders that are VERY thin or VERY fat (note capitalization here!) are a disgrace to the sport in that they promote the wrong image. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No one should be considered a disgrace because of their weight. Period. Why should a rider who is over or underweight, who takes excellent care of their horses and rides with skill, somehow be worth less than a rider who fits into your definition of an optimal weight range?
For Courtney01 and Anyplace Farm: it's good to know about other skinny people on Coth. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Eventhough I've gained weight I still find it hard to get over my old habits of never wearing shorts or sleeveless shirts, avoiding bathingsuits at all costs, praying for winter with all those 'cover-up' clothes... I'm sending lots of warm thoughts your way!
Lastly, I wanted to say that I've greatly enjoyed all the comments on this topic, even those that differed from my own view, and all the personal stories!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As one of those on the opposite end of the spectrum, I'd like to thank you and the others who are thin for posting your comments. We are all naturally familiar with eating disorders, but it's good to hear that not everyone who is thin is one of these people, and also for us heavier gals to hear you very thin ones have the same body image/clothing fitting/etc. problems. Not that I'm happy you do have the problems but that we aren't the only ones and you all aren't as lucky as I might think you are. People often want to be what they aren't without stopping to think that what they aren't has its own set of problems and discomfiture.

Albion
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What I find upsetting in these posts is the generalization that by looking, you can tell if someone is an "unhealthy" or "healthy" type of skinny. There are those of us that appear unhealthy, but are in reality just fine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AKM, I think it's safe to say that if you have (as *I* was citing as examples of 'unhealthy'):

- grey, papery looking skin
- dull hair ... ALL the time
- eggshell-like fingernails, etc., and so on
- your hair is falling out in copious amounts, your body is growing more-than-average body hair to stay warm, due to no fat reserves, etc. etc. etc ...

you are probably NOT healthy. It may not be your weight, it may be something else, but those are NOT signs of a healthy human being. I've met plenty of incredibly skinny, incredibly healthy people & NONE OF THEM looked like someone who is suffering from anorexia. It's not ONE thing, it's the WHOLE picture. People who suffer from weight problems on the other end of the extreme have some of the same symptoms of an unhealthy body. It is next to impossible to starve yourself & look 'healthy'. There are always signs, eventually. It's NOT how much someone weighs, it's NOT the size of their clothes. It's all the OTHER outward manifestations of the body that send up warning signals. One of my mum's old friends has ALWAYS been tall & thin enough (naturally) to be a runway model ... nearly 6' and probably 120? Even today, and she's over 50. But she looks (and is) healthy. Anorexics whose bodies are cannabilizing themselves don't look healthy. Bulimics whose tooth enamel is being eaten away by stomach acid don't look healthy.

I would never look at a stranger - famous or not - and attempt to discern whether or not they were a 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' skinny. But you bet your ass that if one of my friends starts exhibiting symptoms like the above, I WILL say something. A tactful something, but something nonetheless. I've been on the other side of a SERIOUS mental disorder & I know it helped ME just to know that people were there for me when I was ready to come to them. Even if it's some unrelated medical disorder (ie, NOT an eating disorder), perhaps it will prod them into going to the doctor and figuring out what's wrong.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

MissingInAction
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:
You know, I think part of what we need to do is divorce ourselves from the numbers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I've never had an eating disorder, but I'm very self-conscious and wake up every morning thinking about my weight. I know I'm not overweight but when I look at myself in the mirror I see a person who needs to lose 10 or 15 lbs. It's not about fitting into a size 2, but it's more of just looking thinner. I guess it's more of a self-image sort of thing.


"Luck is when preparation meets oportunity."

Pocket Pony
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:47 AM
I want to applaud everyone on this topic. I think that, while differing views have been expressed, it has remained on track and very educational. Kudos to everyone who has come out to speak about their own issues and struggles with weight and body image. I think that it is clear that no matter what we weigh, each of us has feelings of inadequacy - we're not thin enough, or we're not curvy enough, or we don't have big enough boobs, or our butts are too big, or something like that.

I think it is human nature to judge others based on appearances, and I don't think less of anyone who does that. I freely admit that I do it myself. But I have friends who are all over the spectrum - seriously overweight, and very thin - and I don't think differently of any of them. People judge me on how I appear, and I've gotten comments about my weight, when I think I'm just "normal".

Anyways, I think it is dialog like this that helps each of us explore our issues and hopefully realize that the most important thing is a strong, healthy body. I struggle with it every day, and I'm sure I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

I DO think that media plays a big part in it. When I don't pay attention to magazine ads, I don't have anything to compare myself to. When I get a chance to glance through them, I suddenly feel not thin enough or not tall enough or not tan enough or not fit enough or not fashionable enough. Yes, I have my own issues that I will always have to deal with, but the media certainly plays a part.

Disclaimer: Pocket Pony is no relation to Pocket Trainer, although can give advice on how to be the Perfect Pocket Pony.
~formerly batgirl~

SBT
Mar. 17, 2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlotTwist:
sbt, I'm not sure when you say:

"Again, I'm probably not making any sense whatsoever, and I still get the feeling I'm not adequately expressing my view on the subject."

...whether you are sincere, or you are using this as a cover because you really come off to me as a course, self centered, unsympathetic (I'll stop name calling now) snob. That picture you're complaining about wasn't put there to bother you. It pointed out who happened to win the WEF class that week. If you didn't like it, you didn't have to look at it, let alone critique it. Well, actually you spent more time bashing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, it was meant sincerely. And I did have to look at that picture when I went to the TH website. To say I was "bashing" anyone is hardly warranted. "Complaining" is a better term, not that it makes any difference whatsoever to those of you who think I should be crucified for having an unpopular opinion. In reality it is the coarse, unsympathetic, self-centered snobs of the media and the equine industry that are responsible for promoting images like these.

Just because I have no control over something dosen't mean I have no right to form an opinion about it. And that's all it is...an opinion and nothing more. I'm entitled to it, just as you are entitled to your opinion.

If you don't like me, you don't have to read my posts. They aren't plastered on the opening page of the COTH BB for all to see (which I'll admit is probably a good thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ).

Kels
Mar. 17, 2004, 09:43 AM
Rifter- I'm going to IM you on AOL. Don't be surprised! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Kelsey-
WTF? Here they are! (http://www.secretworld.org/image/high_resolution/Fruitbat2.jpg)

dmj
Mar. 17, 2004, 10:02 AM
Thank you so much, Beezer, for sharing that with us. Hugs to you.

Magnolia
Mar. 17, 2004, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In reality it is the coarse, unsympathetic, self-centered snobs of the media and the equine industry that are responsible for promoting images like these.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't have to buy media. Nobody forces anyone to purchase "In-Style" or look at Towerheads on a regular basis. That picture wasn't chosen because the rider was skinny - it was chosen because she won that day. Models are chosen because they look good in a certain designers clothes or fit a photographers artistic vision. Who the heck is going to sell more skirts - a sickly waif, chubby girl or Tyra Banks? That's their job - to sell and image. Tyra Bank's job is to look good. I'm sure she works hard at it. I'm sure if she was a school teacher, she wouldn't be able to keep in shape like that for long.

It's really popular to blame the media for all sorts of issues, but when it comes down to it, it's other things, far more difficult to control. Far easier to blame a junior riders ED on a few photos of a stick thin rider than on the complex issues she may be dealing with (control, extreme pressure, esteem etc.).

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

aliali
Mar. 17, 2004, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
It's really popular to blame the media for all sorts of issues, but when it comes down to it, it's other things, far more difficult to control. Far easier to blame a junior riders ED on a few photos of a stick thin rider than on the complex issues she may be dealing with (control, extreme pressure, esteem etc.).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see anyone writing off the existence of personal pressures- people have even shared their own experiences with them. But personal pressures from parents, school, friends, etc. have always existed. Why are teenagers only in the past few decades acting out in the form of eating disorders? There is something causing them to turn in this direction to deal with their problems. Is it because they also see the unrealistically-skinny model in the magazines? Probably. Are we to say that years ago everyone had incredible self-esteem, self-control and pressure-dealing abilities? No. People are the same today as they were centuries ago. There was always peer pressure and expectations. Only now, though, are we turning to eating disorders and the like to deal with these issues. What part of the cycle is it that is causing us to change in this way?

plottwist
Mar. 17, 2004, 11:33 AM
Thank you magnolia! Very well said!!

OldLadyOnATB
Mar. 17, 2004, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prider80:

Agreed! Riding is a sport...our horses have to be healthy, fit and athletic to perform...we should too!! But since we have animals much larger than us as our partners, there are a number of overweight riders in our sport. I'm not bashing overweight people, and I do recognize that many bigger people are actually very healthy...so that's what we need to strive for here. To be at a healthy weight, whatever that may be, and to maintain a fitness level where you can be a forgiving, accurate, fit partner for your horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Amen! That is the important thing. BTW....I jumped over here from the eventing BB at the recommendation of a fellow BB member. I am having weight issues as well. I am 40 years old and the mother of 2 young girls. I am trying to get a neglected OTTB back in shape so he and I can have a little eventing fun. Needless to say, I have discovered that I am in just as poor physical condition as he is....you know...grass belly, saggy boobs and flabby legs! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The worst part is I feel guilty asking him to carry me around (even though he is 17HH http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

So I go to the Winter Classic in Gulfport to watch the Grand Prix jumping a few weekends ago, and I see NO ONE as big as me there. Understand, I am not obese, but am 6'1" tall and about 45 lbs over my ideal weight. I want so desperately to "join the fun" and sail over some fences.....


I am in reduction mode now.....I need to be healthier...

Thanks for listening.

Elizabeth

"Life is not tried, it is merely survived
If you're standing outside the fire."

Written by: - Jenny Yates - Garth Brooks

budman
Mar. 17, 2004, 02:17 PM
Tory Relic and I have decided to form a support group for those of us trying to take off the pounds that could use some help/encouragement/reinforcement. Anyone who would like to join us is invited to email me at lrahll@msn.com I am about to sign off for the evening, however, so I won't get any messages until tomorrow http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

budman
Mar. 17, 2004, 02:19 PM
I'll be tempted to call us the "COTH losers", although that may not be helpful for the self-esteem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

Linus
Mar. 17, 2004, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aliali:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
It's really popular to blame the media for all sorts of issues, but when it comes down to it, it's other things, far more difficult to control. Far easier to blame a junior riders ED on a few photos of a stick thin rider than on the complex issues she may be dealing with (control, extreme pressure, esteem etc.).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see anyone writing off the existence of personal pressures- people have even shared their own experiences with them. But personal pressures from parents, school, friends, etc. have always existed. Why are teenagers only in the past few decades acting out in the form of eating disorders? There is something causing them to turn in this direction to deal with their problems. Is it because they also see the unrealistically-skinny model in the magazines? Probably. Are we to say that years ago everyone had incredible self-esteem, self-control and pressure-dealing abilities? No. People are the same today as they were centuries ago. There was always peer pressure and expectations. Only now, though, are we turning to eating disorders and the like to deal with these issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said.

I don't "blame" the media, really; I don't think the intent ever was to turn girls against themselves. I certainly don't think it's the responsibility of every public figure to display a certain image, and that reason I'm uncomfortable with drawing any conclusions about LC based on her weight. She's just one person, and her only responsibility should be to her own health, her horse and her riding (the same with the rest of us)--things we can't reasonably judge from this particular vantage point.

It's just that when image after image after image all show a physique unattainable for most of us--well, yes, then something IS going on.

I do see a relationship between how I view myself, and the views I'm constantly inundated with. The link between the media and eating disorders is IMHO well established at this point. On a logical level, I couldn't imagine there not being an effect on girls being barraged daily by a stream of such pictures. Advertising is in fact built on the principle that you can change a person's beliefs, opinions, worldviews via the media. If an image can persuade us to buy-buy-buy (and it can)--could it not also suggest something about our bodies?

My own eating disorder started when I was 14. I was going through a bit of turmoil at the time--family problems coupled with the stress of changing schools and starting high school. Had I not bought into the weight ideal, I probably would have had some psychiatric problems, regardless--depression, at the very least--but I fully believe that the exact form my problems took has a lot to do with the skinny message.

My error was in buying into that message, hook-line-sinker. When I realized finally I didn't have to be a passive recipient of these messages, I gained quite a bit of power, I think. As part of my recovery, I take full responsibility for what I take in--both literally (food) and figuratively (image/message). Anytime I see a waif in the media, I deconstruct it--why it's being shown, what it means, etc. In the process I may well make a bit too much of what is, to others, "just a picture," and it may come across that I'm judging the person depicted (I'm not). Instead it has more to do with me and my own struggles against an ideal I'm never going to be able to reconcile with reality.

Parade
Mar. 17, 2004, 05:23 PM
Wow.....I take a few days off and the thread starts up again.

Sorry if I missed anything...

To whom ever asked if I bench pressed 260 included the bar it does - That is total weight. I can't do it for alot of reps but I can do it. I average about 30 reps at 100 lbs. My personal trainer loves me, she is always saying things like - I have never met a woman who's hipflexers are so strong, or she can't believe how quickly I build muscle.
It is heriditary, my dad is massive and I have his frame.

Here is a point of reference - If you look in my photo's there is one of me from before I had my son (pic taken 6 yrs ago) and the rest of me are within the past year. I am a size 14 in all of them, even in the pics of me jumping. Although I am in better shape NOW than I was in any of the pics, I am bigger now also, I am a 16, I am hoping to lose that and get back to a 14 which is my good size. Stress these days is making loosing the extra weight hard.

I would love to be part of a group that are working together to lose those extra few pounds. It is always easier with people who are working for the same goal as you are.

My album (http://community.webshots.com/user/love_parade)

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be" - Andy Adams

HARROLDhasmyheart
Mar. 17, 2004, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aliali:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
It's really popular to blame the media for all sorts of issues, but when it comes down to it, it's other things, far more difficult to control. Far easier to blame a junior riders ED on a few photos of a stick thin rider than on the complex issues she may be dealing with (control, extreme pressure, esteem etc.).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see anyone writing off the existence of personal pressures- people have even shared their own experiences with them. But personal pressures from parents, school, friends, etc. have always existed. Why are teenagers only in the past few decades acting out in the form of eating disorders? There is something causing them to turn in this direction to deal with their problems. Is it because they also see the unrealistically-skinny model in the magazines? Probably. Are we to say that years ago everyone had incredible self-esteem, self-control and pressure-dealing abilities? No. People are the same today as they were centuries ago. There was always peer pressure and expectations. Only now, though, are we turning to eating disorders and the like to deal with these issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said.

I don't "blame" the media, really; I don't think the intent ever was to turn girls against themselves. I certainly don't think it's the responsibility of every public figure to display a certain image, and that reason I'm uncomfortable with drawing any conclusions about LC based on her weight. She's just one person, and her only responsibility should be to her own health, her horse and her riding (the same with the rest of us)--things we can't reasonably judge from this particular vantage point.

It's just that when image after image after image all show a physique unattainable for most of us--well, yes, then something IS going on.

I do see a relationship between how I view myself, and the views I'm constantly inundated with. The link between the media and eating disorders is IMHO well established at this point. On a logical level, I couldn't imagine there not being an effect on girls being barraged daily by a stream of such pictures. Advertising is in fact built on the principle that you can change a person's beliefs, opinions, worldviews via the media. If an image can persuade us to buy-buy-buy (and it can)--could it not also suggest something about our bodies?

My own eating disorder started when I was 14. I was going through a bit of turmoil at the time--family problems coupled with the stress of changing schools and starting high school. Had I not bought into the weight ideal, I probably would have had some psychiatric problems, regardless--depression, at the very least--but I fully believe that the exact form my problems took has a lot to do with the skinny message.

My error was in buying into that message, hook-line-sinker. When I realized finally I didn't have to be a passive recipient of these messages, I gained quite a bit of power, I think. As part of my recovery, I take full responsibility for what I take in--both literally (food) and figuratively (image/message). Anytime I see a waif in the media, I deconstruct it--why it's being shown, what it means, etc. In the process I may well make a bit too much of what is, to others, "just a picture," and it may come across that I'm judging the person depicted (I'm not). Instead it has more to do with me and my own struggles against an ideal I'm never going to be able to reconcile with reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you said, very well said! It's not so much that the media is to blame for causing eating disorders and body image problems, but they do promote the ideal image of what one "should" look like. It's kind of like what "fuels the fire," not what starts it. If that makes any sense at all... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

My biggest mistake was believing that I had to look like what I was shown, and then using those images to drive me down even deeper. That was probably the biggest mistake of my life, and I'm still paying for it. IMHO, it was NOT good idea.

* * * * * * * *

"if riding were only blue ribbons and bright lights, i would have quit long ago."

bounce once if you believe in diaganols!

i &lt;3 my ponies!

ponies are small horses. small horses are big ponies. big ponies are monsterous minatures. so a minature horse is the same as a pony is the same as a horse, right?
http://community.webshots.com/user/crazypony14

*stellar*
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:07 PM
I'm not sure this has been visited since I haven't read the whole thread but since sizing has really become and issue, I would like to point that "popular" brands with teens and kids (sterotype I know, but bear with me) tend to size clothes bigger. Forexample, I wear a size 2 in American Eagel Jeans...I am a size 6. But I go and buy jeans at American Eagel everytime because I feel so "small" when I wear them. People are more likely to buy a smaller size, makes them feel better, then they buy more of you clothes. I'm a perfect example...yet anohter way I've fallen to those dang marketing ideas....

MissingInAction
Mar. 17, 2004, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *stellar*:
I'm not sure this has been visited since I haven't read the whole thread but since sizing has really become and issue, I would like to point that "popular" brands with teens and kids (sterotype I know, but bear with me) tend to size clothes bigger. Forexample, I wear a size 2 in American Eagel Jeans...I am a size 6. But I go and buy jeans at American Eagel everytime because I feel so "small" when I wear them. People are more likely to buy a smaller size, makes them feel better, then they buy more of you clothes. I'm a perfect example...yet anohter way I've fallen to those dang marketing ideas....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG I know EXACTLY what you mean! At A&F I am a size 0 or 2 in their jeans, but other brands I'll be a size 5 or 7 and in others I'll be a size 3. And of course the A&F jeans are more expensive then, let's say, Levi's. I have absolutely nothing against other jeans but I just love saying to myself "hey wow look at me, I can fit into a size 2!" argh!


"Luck is when preparation meets oportunity."

AKM
Mar. 18, 2004, 02:26 AM
Wow, such thoughtful comments, everyone!

Albion-- Please note that in my post on judging people as "unhealthy" due to their weight, I did not directly refer to your descriptions of girls with grey skin, dull hair etc. I was not addressing such issues, infact, that's why I mentioned that there are extremes. My intention was to respond to those that felt someone who appeared skinny was automatically unhealthy. I did not say that someone who was skinny, had hair falling out and papery skin might be healthy. I think it's obvious that such a person is not. I was focusing on judgements made solely on the weight of the person. I apologize if this caused confusion.

I brought it up because everyone thought I looked unhealthy for most of my childhood and adolescence, when in fact I was quite healthy. You could count all of my ribs, my shoulderblades were extremely prominent, and my legs were sticks. I'm also naturally pale (ok, extrememly pale), which added to my "unhealthy" appearance. Even doctors thought I was unhealthy just by looking at me. They ran extensive tests, and it turned out that while I looked like a gangly walking skeleton, I was perfectly healthy. That was the point I strove to make. Weight alone should not be the basis for judgements.

And from the other side of the spectrum... several months ago there was a man on the Today show who was by appearances overweight. He commented that he was always percieved by the overweight stereotype; people assumed his weight indicated an unwillingness to exercise and general laziness. It was fitting then to find out that he was a marathon runner. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by AKM on Mar. 18, 2004 at 10:16 AM.]

Tory Relic
Mar. 18, 2004, 09:51 AM
Bump for SamIam

greyhndz
Mar. 18, 2004, 01:46 PM
Many of you have been generous about sharing their very personal (and in many cases, painful) stories about their experiences with eating disorders, self-image, and/or feelings of not being accepted or succeeding because of issues with weight. Well, as an anorexia survivor (still battling dysfunctional food issues) I have a story to share as well.

I grew up very very skinny. This was in the '60's, when Twiggy was the hot model of the day, and having grown up in the South Bronx, I was tormented by my junior-high and high schoolmates. I hated being skinny and being called "Twiggy". These were some of the worst years of my life, and I lived for the day when I would have normal, non-chicken legs, and feel accepted (not shunned) by my peers for my appearance. When I went to college at age 16, I finally put on a little weight (eat enough Kraft Macaroni & Cheese and it happens http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) so I began to look more "normal" (well, except for the chicken legs). This was also when I got heavily into riding and showing. For the first time, I felt like I had a group of friends I was comfortable with, and with whom I shared a passion. I was having more success in the IHSA show ring than I could ever imagine, and quickly moved up the ranks in training and in the show ring. While I have always been very quiet, shy, not a huge social butterfly, this was the first time in my life really felt like I was an asset - to the farm where I trained, rode and taught; to the team, which was frequently high-point at IHSA shows; to my students; and to my horsey friends. I was dating someone (he was a turd but let's not even go there), and felt pretty comfortable at school.

Why, when I was at a relative high point in my life, I became anorexic, I still cannot explain. At the end of my junior year, I thought I needed to lose a bit of weight as I was noticing a belly for the first time, so I started counting calories. I recall coming back to college in the fall, seeing the guy I had dated the semester before, and bragging to him about how much weight I'd lost. Now, here is where there is a divergence between how a typical person approaches weight loss, and what goes through the mind of a person with anorexia. As many of you have alluded to, an eating disorder is a psychiatric phenomenon. While many people with eating disorders may begin their downward spiral as a result of what their peers, trainers, and/or the media lead them to believe is a desirably thin body image, I can say that this was not a factor for me, nor for many patients with eating disorders that I have treated over the past 17 years. Calorie-counting, self-deprivation, exercise obsession/addiction, and a distorted self-image become the primary focus of your life. And this does not shut off when people around you begin to compliment you on how much weight you've lost, or what an attractive rider you've become, or how good you look now on a horse. I cannot describe it any better than to say that a switch seems to go off in your mind, and all of your former priorities suddenly fall in line behind your obsession with losing weight.

The scale becomes your best friend, and every point lost is further reinforcement. The more your skeleton becomes obvious when you look in the mirror, the more satisfied you feel. When your friends and family tell you that you look terrible, ill, wasted, you secretly feel a sense of accomplishment; when you're told that you look "good" or "healthy", you become depressed and worried because this, to you, means that you must have gained weight. Unless you have experienced an eating disorder, you cannot possibly comprehend the phenomenon of looking in a mirror and seeing yourself looking "fat", feeling literally every ounce of weight that you believe you have gained, and berating yourself because your eyes see overweight where the rest of the rational world sees emaciation and cachexia.

Your life revolves around exercising fanatically despite the fact that you can't stand up with feeling faint. Although you almost always are weak and short of breath, your compulsion to exercise equates to your addiction to self-deprivation and starvation. On a generous day, I allowed myself 300 calories, but there were many days I was thrilled at the fact that I only ate 150-200. You see, deprivation = self-control; I was the master of my body and of my ability to succeed so succintly at one task: weight loss and starvation. Feeling hungry was good and desirable. I learned every trick in the book about hiding my behavior from others (and in my mind, no one around me was aware of my problem. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Uh-huh... right). Unfortunately, I also became severely depressed, withdrawn, non-social, irritable. Because every other aspect of my life had to take second place to my strict non-eating and exercise routine, I avoided eating with friends or family, or participating in activities which would disrupt my religious daily routine. I had no periods for &gt; 5 years, and revelled in the loss of breast tissue and the fact that I took on a child-like, sexless appearance. The only thing I allowed myself (and I don't remember how I managed to do it physically) was riding, but that was probably because riding = exercise = burning calories. I'm 5'10". I weight &lt;95 lbs by the time I graduated from college. I have photos of myself from around that time, and it's not a pretty picture. (Actually, I would be willing to post them if it would help someone else facing an eating disorder take a more objective view of how we appear to people; unfortunately I couldn't get photo island (?) to work for me last night when I tried to post them to an album.) In 1974, when I graduated, eating disorders had not yet been publicized and most people (and physicians) were not aware of anorexia or bullemia at that point.

It's now 30 years since college graduation. While to look at me I may not look like I have active anorexia (though I'm still told I'm thin), I assure you that, in terms of my thought processes, I am the same person. My negative feelings toward food, and self-punishment for eating, have never abated. What I see in the mirror (which I do not allow myself to do for fear of what I will see) is not what people tell me *they* see. I still derive tremendous satisfaction from friends telling me I've lost weight, or I'm too thin. I continue to silently reward myself for non-eating. I'm certainly not at the life-threatening state that I was in through much of the 1970's, looks can be deceiving, as the same issues of obsession with self-control, lack of self-esteem, poor self-image, etc. are still at the forefront. These issues are what truly lead one down the road of eating disorders. Social approval of thinness may be a contributant (or an initial trigger), but other behavioral and physiologic factors need to converge to result in an eating disorder (per DMS-IV, which defines psychiatric disorders: "A. Refusal to maintain body weight at or above a minimally normal weight for age and height....; B. Intense fear of gaining weight or becoming fat, even though underweight; C. Disturbance in the way in which one's body weight or shape is experienced .... or denial of the seriousness of the current low body weight; D. .... amenorrhea.")

Much as alcohol- or substance-abuse, eating disorders are a lifelong battle. One is always in recovery, some more successfully than others. To those who have been through this battle and come out the other side intact, I salute and admire you. Be proud of yourselves, learn to love yourselves *for* yourselves and *because* of who you are. Thank you for letting me share my perspective as one who has been there, done that, actually still doin' that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And just to keep a sense of humor about all this, if one more person tells me I look like my dogs (greyhounds, of course) I may have to lift my leg!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Jordan

Velvet
Mar. 18, 2004, 02:48 PM
I don't have the time to read all of the replies out here, and I wish I did. But I did catch Anyplace's post and I have to say that I've done that! I was always a twig. I hated it because in my youth we were past the "Twiggy" phase and on to the "Buxom" craze. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Drove me nuts. I also caught the first wave of eating disorder frenzy and actually had a doctor ask me if I was trying to lose weight when I started up the conversation asking him how I could GAIN weight. I was so pissed off and insulted.

I also had heavy people say in a demeaning tone, "You're SOOOO skinny." Yeah, well, I actually DID reply a couple times, "Well, you're very fat!" They were shocked by my reply. I then told them it was just as insulting to me to have someone use that comment in that tone of voice as it was for them to have me calling them fat.

I was sick of it. I had to deal with being a twig until my mid-thirties. Now I finally can put a bit of weight on--but it's in all the wrong places. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I think people need to get a clue. Some people are naturally skinny and pig out. Get over it. If you're actually admiring the person for being thin, state it in a flattering way and say "thin" and NOT skinny.

Don't judge thin people because they are thin.

Oh, and as for missing periods because your thin and working out is not a crime. It's what happens. Sometimes you have no control over it, and I loved skipping a month here and there as a teenager and missing out on the raging PMS. It's a "good thing." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Wish I could still do it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Ah, well, we all get older and all things droop unless you use a plastic surgeon. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.
-Ivanova, B5

budman
Mar. 18, 2004, 03:51 PM
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'd like to mention that I've had a several people email me about the support group. Anyone is still welcome to join, just remember to put COTH or something on the signature line or I just delete the message. If you've emailed me and haven't received a reply, let me know here.

And I really like the fact that this thread addresses both the high and low end of weight problems. It's been very helpful and eye opening for me to hear both sides of the issue. And thank you everyone for your candor especially in posting painful responses.

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

greyhndz
Mar. 18, 2004, 04:53 PM
Sayeth Velvet: &gt;Now I finally can put a bit of weight on--but it's in all the wrong places. &lt;

You noticed that too, huh? I wanted to take any extra poundage and apply it to my chicken legs. But I could never get that theory to work. My calves were so thin, and my feet so long, that even with zippers, I couldn't get my feet into my Vogel dress boots. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

&gt;Oh, and as for missing periods because your thin and working out is not a crime.I loved skipping a month here and there as a teenager and missing out on the raging PMS. It's a "good thing." Velvet: &gt;

But from a medical standpoint, unfortunately it's really not good. An occasional missed period shouldn't be a problem, but a woman who routinely doesn't get periods (amenorrhea) as a result of excessive weight loss, a stringent training program and/or abnormally low body fat percentage, usually isn't producing adequate estrogen. It's essentially premature menopause. This puts amenorrheic women at high risk for osteoporosis, fractures, heart disease and other long-term problems. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Heidi
Mar. 18, 2004, 07:02 PM
Wouldn't it be lovely if we were able to nurture and reinforce the message to our daughters, sisters, mothers, girlfriends that you are good enough?

Wouldn't it be beautiful if we collectively raised a generation that posessed, regardless of weight, outrageous-ideals, comfort within their own skin?

I've been everything from 85 lbs. to 140 -- and know that it's a very hard-fought battle to finally reside comfortably, embracingly, within one's own skin.

cbv
Mar. 19, 2004, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aliali:

I don't see anyone writing off the existence of personal pressures- people have even shared their own experiences with them. But personal pressures from parents, school, friends, etc. have always existed. Why are teenagers only in the past few decades acting out in the form of eating disorders? There is something causing them to turn in this direction to deal with their problems. Is it because they also see the unrealistically-skinny model in the magazines? Probably. Are we to say that years ago everyone had incredible self-esteem, self-control and pressure-dealing abilities? No. People are the same today as they were centuries ago. There was always peer pressure and expectations. Only now, though, are we turning to eating disorders and the like to deal with these issues. What part of the cycle is it that is causing us to change in this way?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A family member of mine died from anorexia nervosa 35 years ago. I don't know how long she suffered from it prior to her death but it was a while. Though it may have become more widely recognized and understood in the past 10 years, and treatments more available, it is not a 'brand new' disease.

[This message was edited by cbv on Mar. 19, 2004 at 11:15 AM.]

MAD
Mar. 19, 2004, 08:14 AM
Here is the link to the American BMI Calculator. All you need is your weight and height.

http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmicalc.htm

Albion
Mar. 19, 2004, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why are teenagers only in the past few decades acting out in the form of eating disorders? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The eating disorders only became really recognized as a totally seperate category of mental disorders, disorders that needed specialized treatment pretty recently - before then, there were a lot of psychiatrists/psychologists that just wouldn't deal with them, or if they did, treated people with eating disorders like they treated other patients. During the '70s & after, they became more widely known of in the public sphere & people began specializing in the treatment of eating disorders. It's not new. It's just more widely recognized. There are a LOT of questions today surrounded a myriad of disorders - like bipolar, where more & more young children are being diagnosed, something that was relatively uncommon even 10 or 20 years ago - of WHY there are increased cases. One argument is that awareness is simply higher, and since there is not AS much shame attached to having a disorder these days, people are more likely to see & get treatment, or notice problems with their loved ones.

Self-mutilation is going through much of the same transformation today - it's not 'new' in ANY sense of the word, but the psychiatric community is more willing to deal with the issue (although there are STILL professionals who WILL NOT treat patients suffering from self-mutilation) & there is increased awareness among the public of the problem.

People wanting to change their bodies into something they are not has been going on forever (literally). There is a hilarious poem by Ovid, the Roman lyric poet, about his girlfriend. She is so insistant on changing her hair (not the same as taking drastic measures to change your body, I know), that she bleaches, irons, curls, and styles it until it all falls out. Ovid is basically going, 'Why? You had beautiful hair! There was nothing wrong with it before! And now you don't have any at all!' Makes you realize that some things never change.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

budman
Mar. 19, 2004, 10:49 AM
I'm not saying that BMI can't be a useful tool, but a correct body fat measurement is much more accurate, because it takes the size of your frame into account. For a large boned and/or heavily muscled person, BMI can be very misleading.

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