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Carol O
Jan. 11, 2011, 02:41 PM
Spinning off from another thread, where is poll position on the training scale?

On another thread, I see horses that are rhythmic, relaxed, straight and collected, but the discussion has centered on poll position.

Where does it fall?

joiedevie99
Jan. 11, 2011, 02:47 PM
IMHO, poll position is the result of degree of collection. For any individual horse, the more collected the horse is, the higher the poll will be. It's harder to compare between horses though since conformation contributes to some degree.

netg
Jan. 11, 2011, 03:50 PM
While I'm not in agreement with forced overflexion of a horse (rollkur or any other term you choose to use for it), I also am in huge disagreement of any argument trying to use the head position as the reason for anything, and therefore tend to disagree with the board extremist on almost all his posts.

I'm guessing this is what your point was, too.


I've used pictures of my horse as an example - I think if the horse's body is doing what it's supposed to and contact is as it's supposed to be, the head goes in the "correct" position for that horse. I also think that "correct" changes throughout a riding session as you ask for different work.

The standards and definitions and rules are based upon properly training the horse's body, and I'm pretty sure this horse is exhibiting the least correct use of its body I have ever seen over cavaletti, even if the poll is the highest point.
http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg

AlterBy
Jan. 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
While I'm not in agreement with forced overflexion of a horse (rollkur or any other term you choose to use for it), I also am in huge disagreement of any argument trying to use the head position as the reason for anything, and therefore tend to disagree with the board extremist on almost all his posts.

I'm guessing this is what your point was, too.


I've used pictures of my horse as an example - I think if the horse's body is doing what it's supposed to and contact is as it's supposed to be, the head goes in the "correct" position for that horse. I also think that "correct" changes throughout a riding session as you ask for different work.

The standards and definitions and rules are based upon properly training the horse's body, and I'm pretty sure this horse is exhibiting the least correct use of its body I have ever seen over cavaletti, even if the poll is the highest point.
http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg


Tsss Tsss
Put up or shut up!
Put some photos of you ridding seven cavalletti.
I dare say you cannot.
:no:

netg
Jan. 11, 2011, 04:07 PM
:lol:


I liked your "big cavaletti" photo!


Unfortunately, my cavaletti photo only shows legs and incorrectly wrapped polos.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5073268890_372a4966eb.jpg

AlterBy
Jan. 11, 2011, 04:26 PM
Thanks!

Nice legs! and love the green color of your polos!!!

As for the incorrect wrapping, polos are unsafe for your horse so you better get rid of them!:winkgrin:

Better have hollow back than heat build up in your horse's legs!

Denali Does
Jan. 11, 2011, 05:06 PM
Isn't the poll relative to the "sitting" at all levels?

spirithorse
Jan. 11, 2011, 05:26 PM
Article 401-5
In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the athlete

Article 417-c:
The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection

There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it. I have seen thick jowled horses achieve this position without effort. It is the rider who places the head/neck carriage in an incorrect frame. If the rider would 'allow' the horse to attain the correct position, the rider would find that the horse achieves collection easier, has the back up and gains more impulsion from the hindquarter and can achieve greater extension when asked.

In training, the rider should always seek to have the horse poll high and nose in front of the vertical. That does not mean that the heighth of the poll has to be in any particular placement. In other words, a younger horse is not expected to carry the poll as high of the ground as the GP horse.

Now as for my cavalletti image.
Visually, it is not what you are used to seeing and that may be cause for your opinions. For those who are chosing to bash the horse's position, this image has been analyized and found that the horse is absolutely correct, with its back up and hindquarters thoroughly engaged.

AlterBy
Jan. 11, 2011, 05:43 PM
Really, who is he trying to convince? Himself?

No wonder most people have put him on 'ignore'.

Why not treat myself and do the same? Immediate relief! Pfiou. Beu-bye!

spirithorse
Jan. 11, 2011, 05:50 PM
Really, who is he trying to convince? Himself?

No wonder most people have put him on 'ignore'.

Why not treat myself and do the same? Immediate relief! Pfiou. Beu-bye!


Yeppee..........GOOD BYE

Denali Does
Jan. 11, 2011, 05:52 PM
Article 417-c:
The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation.

There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it.


I'm not sure how to quote here but WHAT????:confused::confused:

dressurpferd01
Jan. 11, 2011, 06:06 PM
While I'm not in agreement with forced overflexion of a horse (rollkur or any other term you choose to use for it), I also am in huge disagreement of any argument trying to use the head position as the reason for anything, and therefore tend to disagree with the board extremist on almost all his posts.

I'm guessing this is what your point was, too.


I've used pictures of my horse as an example - I think if the horse's body is doing what it's supposed to and contact is as it's supposed to be, the head goes in the "correct" position for that horse. I also think that "correct" changes throughout a riding session as you ask for different work.

The standards and definitions and rules are based upon properly training the horse's body, and I'm pretty sure this horse is exhibiting the least correct use of its body I have ever seen over cavaletti, even if the poll is the highest point.
http://www.hartetoharte.org/Cavallettis__3_.jpg

Holy chair seat, Batman!!!

mickeydoodle
Jan. 11, 2011, 06:08 PM
Article 401-5
In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the athlete

Article 417-c:
The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection

There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it. I have seen thick jowled horses achieve this position without effort. It is the rider who places the head/neck carriage in an incorrect frame. If the rider would 'allow' the horse to attain the correct position, the rider would find that the horse achieves collection easier, has the back up and gains more impulsion from the hindquarter and can achieve greater extension when asked.

In training, the rider should always seek to have the horse poll high and nose in front of the vertical. That does not mean that the heighth of the poll has to be in any particular placement. In other words, a younger horse is not expected to carry the poll as high of the ground as the GP horse.

Now as for my cavalletti image.
Visually, it is not what you are used to seeing and that may be cause for your opinions. For those who are chosing to bash the horse's position, this image has been analyized and found that the horse is absolutely correct, with its back up and hindquarters thoroughly engaged.


Who analyzed it?

As you pointed out on the other thread, analysis here is all wrong.

What I see in the picture is a rider in a chair seat (so far back he looks almost off the back of the cantle), with feet thrust all the way through the irons, (very dangerous by the way) hunched, hands in his lap, horse hollow, off the bit and a running martingale adjusted very low to the chest to keep the horses head down.

Carol O
Jan. 11, 2011, 08:17 PM
Article 401-5
In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the athlete

Article 417-c:
The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection

There is the very specific descriptions of the head and neck. Conformation does not have anything to do with it. I have seen thick jowled horses achieve this position without effort. It is the rider who places the head/neck carriage in an incorrect frame. If the rider would 'allow' the horse to attain the correct position, the rider would find that the horse achieves collection easier, has the back up and gains more impulsion from the hindquarter and can achieve greater extension when asked.

In training, the rider should always seek to have the horse poll high and nose in front of the vertical. That does not mean that the heighth of the poll has to be in any particular placement. In other words, a younger horse is not expected to carry the poll as high of the ground as the GP horse.

Now as for my cavalletti image.
Visually, it is not what you are used to seeing and that may be cause for your opinions. For those who are chosing to bash the horse's position, this image has been analyized and found that the horse is absolutely correct, with its back up and hindquarters thoroughly engaged.

Again, where is this on the TS?

naturalequus
Jan. 11, 2011, 09:12 PM
IMHO, poll position is the result of degree of collection. For any individual horse, the more collected the horse is, the higher the poll will be. It's harder to compare between horses though since conformation contributes to some degree.

Poll position will naturally fall into place as a result of the horse's level of collection. When the horse attains the highest level of collection, its poll will naturally be the highest point - until then, the poll will be various degrees below. If you are riding the horse back to front, you don't worry about the poll; it comes with the natural progression of collection.

That is not to say whatsoever that a horse who has its poll as the highest point is collected, but that when they ARE collected, their poll position will reflect their degree of reflection.

ETA: As for the cavelleti photo, it is pretty blurry for analysis. That said, I dislike the topline muscling (ie, over the C-vertebrae, lack of muscling in front of the withers), the horse's head appears to be held in place via the martingale and thus (as is apparent) he is NOT lifting from the base of his neck, the hock is NOT flexed/bent with loading, and he appears croup-high.

Spirithorse, I actually agree with you for the most part, except with your analysis as it pertains to the cavelleti photo. At first glance the horse's neck and body position does appear to be perhaps optimal however upon closer inspection it is obvious the horse is NOT working efficiently or with any degree of collection.

I think difficulty and thus degree of collection through a horse's training is conformation-dependent, which relates to the highest degree of collection a horse might be able to achieve and, as mentioned, the progression of a horse's collection throughout its training (ie, whether fast or slow, etc).

OP I do not think one can pinpoint poll position according to the Training Scale because it is dependent upon the individual horse. Obviously poll-highest will be what occurs in the horse who is at the height of collection no matter its gait or movement (to an extent), however that is a VERY high level of collection. As the horse progresses from non-collected (bottom of the TS) to the highest degree of collection possible however, the poll will vary and depend upon the individual horse's ability, conformation, and training level within the TS and each level of the TS.

Carol O
Jan. 11, 2011, 09:27 PM
The thread that inspired this one had loads of photos/videos of horses who were rhythmic, relaxed, forward and collected.

Can we give credit where it is due, please? Must we continue to major in minors?

Okay, so the score is 8 instead of a 10. 8 is still damn good riding!

spirithorse
Jan. 11, 2011, 09:35 PM
Okay, so the score is 8 instead of a 10. 8 is still damn good riding!

May I inquire how it could be an 8 if the prequistes required for the head and neck are not correct? This incorrectness manisfests negatively into the gaits and movements, that is why it is required.

ShannonLee
Jan. 11, 2011, 09:37 PM
Continue to ignore. :(

Denali Does
Jan. 11, 2011, 10:23 PM
What am I missing here? Is someone saying the photo of the person going over the cavaletti is "correct"? Looks horrible to me.

mbm
Jan. 11, 2011, 10:28 PM
Again, where is this on the TS?

the training scale was german to start with and isn't used in many other schools. it is not the same as the rules.

Reddfox
Jan. 11, 2011, 10:28 PM
...Now as for my cavalletti image.
Visually, it is not what you are used to seeing and that may be cause for your opinions. For those who are chosing to bash the horse's position, this image has been analyized and found that the horse is absolutely correct, with its back up and hindquarters thoroughly engaged.

By whom was it analyzed? One of the beauties of cavalletti work is that it is used to loosen back muscles and they are ridden with the neck articulated out and the drawbridge of the back arched up...not inverted as we see in the photo.

This back is absolutely not up...this is a prime example of an inverted horse and I can't blame it - the rider is slamming down on the loins of the horse on the down phase of the trot, rather than carrying himself lightly and in balance to allow the back to come up.

This site shows a horse correctly over cavalletti. (scroll down to see the sequences)
http://www.nancylaterdressagehorses.com/Strengthen.php

There's even a photo (2 cavalletti/photo2) that is close to the same down phase that your photo shows....note the differences in the horse and the rider

mbm
Jan. 11, 2011, 10:33 PM
also, if the horse is working correctly from back to front it will place the head/neck where it needs to - the higher the collection, the higher the head/neck.

the idea of poll at the highest point and nose in front of the vertical is about correctness. if the horse is working correctly is *will* be IFV and poll high.

it used to be those were very important barometers. not so much anymore.

i am not sure why but my suspicion is that it isnt easy to ride the horse in a manner that it can work poll high and nose ifv - errors creep in, horse come above the bit etc.

mickeydoodle
Jan. 11, 2011, 11:00 PM
May I inquire how it could be an 8 if the prequistes required for the head and neck are not correct? This incorrectness manisfests negatively into the gaits and movements, that is why it is required.

your picture is a 3 at best

AlterBy
Jan. 12, 2011, 12:16 AM
your picture is a 3 at best

Since the horse is wearing a martingale, he wouldn't even be allowed in the ring...

EqTrainer
Jan. 12, 2011, 12:20 AM
May I inquire how it could be an 8 if the prequistes required for the head and neck are not correct? This incorrectness manisfests negatively into the gaits and movements, that is why it is required.

Because we don't ride their heads ;)

LarkspurCO
Jan. 12, 2011, 01:28 AM
Because we don't ride their heads ;)

:Applause:

Beentheredonethat
Jan. 12, 2011, 01:37 AM
Well, now, be nice. One of the "correct" pictures he liked was a fake--it's a plastic model horse. It's all about the image, not reality, you know. That way they don't actually move. It's always a still picture.

Bats79
Jan. 12, 2011, 06:41 AM
Spinning off from another thread, where is poll position on the training scale?



Where in your consideration is it? I have felt that the training scale deliberately avoids mentioning the poll position.

Or was the question retorical and really only an excuse to bait someone you obviously don't agree with?

I can't actually see any point in replying to the question with a thoughtful answer that will be either ignored in the discussion or met with ridicule. :(

Liz Steacie
Jan. 12, 2011, 07:37 AM
Poll position is a *result* of the correct application of the concepts in the training scale. Remember that the training scale is a set of guidelines that will help achieve balance and self-carriage through exercises, not a linear progression of "to do" items.

Carol O
Jan. 12, 2011, 09:08 PM
Where in your consideration is it? I have felt that the training scale deliberately avoids mentioning the poll position.

Or was the question retorical and really only an excuse to bait someone you obviously don't agree with?

I can't actually see any point in replying to the question with a thoughtful answer that will be either ignored in the discussion or met with ridicule. :(

I don't think the TS "deliberately avoids... poll position". After another thread got several comments about poll position I wondered about it; it's place on the scale, that's all.

I think there is room here for a reasonable discussion without getting personal.

I agree with a recent post about the poll postion being the highest point comes from correct work using the entire scale. In collection any "holes" in the training come out, BUT, any ride will have moments that will not photograph well. One needs to take more into consideration than just poll position.

ideayoda
Jan. 13, 2011, 01:03 PM
Since no one has really answered the question, the answer to your question is in the FN book. http://www.amazon.com/Principles-National-Equestrian-Federations-Complete/dp/1872119719/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294935166&sr=8-1 and http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Techniques-Riding-Instruction-Equestrian/dp/0939481030/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294935205&sr=1-3

When reading those two books you will see where it is first addressed in book one. First the basics of rider are addressed, the definitions of the movements. Then the points of the t.s. are addressed. Rhythm (pure gaits/steady tempo/allowing for a swinging back aka relaxation); then suppleness (lateral flexibility leading to longitudinal balance); contact (flexion and increased flexion per each level of training); impulsion (elastic lifting and placing of the hindlegs); straightness (ability to control the shoulders in short); and collection (amplitude of strides).

By previous definitions in the book as to what constitutes balance, it is clear what training (scale) is to engender because they USE the fei book definitions of exercises/figures. ALL of the definitions of exercise/etc state that the horse is to be up/open/ifv...but also they define how the hindquarters are to be used as well. (So, the grey horse caveletti clearly shows a horse which is hollow in the back and pushing out behind just as the horses he criticizes are as well. Interesting too as an aside because the FN books also shows how to use caveletti correctly...and too high and too wide causes a horse to struggle in the back, especially when the rider is behind the balance.)

In any case bearing/balance importance (from backing to upper levels) are specifically addressed in many places in this treatise: First in defining what 'on the bit' is, secondly as to each figure, and finally as to the training scale it is specifically addressed in the third part of the training scale: contact (flexion and increasing flexion per the level of training). However, the point is made that no art of the T.S. exists in a vacumn. And the T.S. are only a few pages (143-176) in a entire treatise on the entire rider education/handling/backing/training.

The TS also specifically addresses which exercises/movements 'feed' into which rung of it. And since those movements/exercises have also been previously defined as to what the use of the neck/throatlatch/poll is to be, then we see the importance of what the horse's body use tells us, and why.

No we do not just ride their heads, but we do ride the connection with the mouth from back to front. The heads/necks/chest/throatlatches/mobile jaws reveal the our own tact/timing which is revealed in the balance of the entire horse. If the horse is not steadily up/open/out to the hand with a mobile jaw (as the rules require), then either the rider is specifically overwhelming the horse to be closed or the balance/connection is incorrect. The 'balancing rod' (aka the neck/cervical spine) is reflective of balance/aids/quality of bit acceptance. And precipitous flexion is the leading cause of a horse which is out of balance, and not trusting the hand enough to stay out to the bridle effectively. Does that means there are not moments of errors? Of course, the horse has to learn to understand us. By the same token, they are moments of errors, not a steady diet from imposition of too much hand (torqued curbs) or wrong use of exercises in wrong balance as well.

For what it is worth it is not the higher collection the higher the neck per se. There should not be that much difference in the height, since the mouth should be roughly the levelness of the hip+/-. It is rather the higher the level the greater the degrees of flexion because of the energy and willing connection to the hand. A lower level horse will be slightly lower but WELL ifv (like 45 degrees) as it merely accepting a connection with the hand. As the hindlegs flex more/compress the joints more, the 'arcing' of the head neck as a counter weight to that is also ached more, but STILL out to the bridle. The occipital lobe (the bumps on the skull aka poll) remains the highest point, the horse chewing, and still seeking the hand (aka ifv). If asked to chew fdo, the horse does do willingly showing all three elements f and d and out.

For what it is worth the fei booklet which defines every movement with every score 0-10, poll the highest point and face ifv is included as necessary for every score 5-10.

Carol O
Jan. 13, 2011, 07:32 PM
Thanks, Yoda. I have those books and will take a peek!