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LookmaNohands
Jan. 4, 2011, 09:52 PM
And where or whom would you to to find it?

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 4, 2011, 10:12 PM
Dressage of the 15th-19th century

MaximumChrome
Jan. 4, 2011, 10:29 PM
Poll always high, no matter what:lol: Or, poll high, back hollow!

EqTrainer
Jan. 4, 2011, 10:33 PM
Poll always high, no matter what:lol: Or, poll high, back hollow!

:lol: but seriously...

Always in the best interest of the horse :)

spirithorse
Jan. 4, 2011, 11:46 PM
Flame suit is on

As for the opinion of posters as to who demonstrates 'classical dressage' in the competitive arena, well that is a huge request because it would depend upon one's definition of 'classical dressage'.
FEI's descriptions contained in the rules are classical, so the rider is mandated to meet all of those stipulations for the movements.

There are many riders who are influenced by the classical format, yet do not fully achieve the end results. In fact some of the best do not even compete.

For me, one of America's best riders and instructors is Jane Savoie

These are what I look for in the ability of a rider to reach 'classical dressage'.

1. A rider that uses just the snaffle, never has to rely upon the curb.
2. Poll the highest point [no matter the test level].
3. Nose in front of the vertical at all times except at piaffe which it may be vertical.
4. The back of the horse is up and the hindquarter engaged which generates impulsion.
5. Shoulders in free swing so that the fore and hind legs have the same equal stride.
6. Footfall of the horse is in rhythm with the required gait.
7. Tail of horse is quiet not twisting and wrenching about.
8. Rider's hands and legs are still when giving the aids, requiring me to really look for the aids being given {invisible aids} Example: Not the twisting of the body and over use of the legs currently being demonstrated with tiempe changes in GP.

alicen
Jan. 5, 2011, 05:58 AM
Xenophone, Pluvinel, Wm. Cavendish, Francois Robichon de la Guerniere.

LookmaNohands
Jan. 5, 2011, 09:37 AM
Flame suit is on

As for the opinion of posters as to who demonstrates 'classical dressage' in the competitive arena, well that is a huge request because it would depend upon one's definition of 'classical dressage'.
FEI's descriptions contained in the rules are classical, so the rider is mandated to meet all of those stipulations for the movements.

There are many riders who are influenced by the classical format, yet do not fully achieve the end results. In fact some of the best do not even compete.

For me, one of America's best riders and instructors is Jane Savoie

These are what I look for in the ability of a rider to reach 'classical dressage'.

1. A rider that uses just the snaffle, never has to rely upon the curb.
2. Poll the highest point [no matter the test level].
3. Nose in front of the vertical at all times except at piaffe which it may be vertical.
4. The back of the horse is up and the hindquarter engaged which generates impulsion.
5. Shoulders in free swing so that the fore and hind legs have the same equal stride.
6. Footfall of the horse is in rhythm with the required gait.
7. Tail of horse is quiet not twisting and wrenching about.
8. Rider's hands and legs are still when giving the aids, requiring me to really look for the aids being given {invisible aids} Example: Not the twisting of the body and over use of the legs currently being demonstrated with tiempe changes in GP.

Jane can't be the only one! Is Bettina Drummond still in the US?

Has anyone read "Twisted Truths in Modern Dressage?" If so, what did you think of it?

Amazone
Jan. 5, 2011, 09:50 AM
I've read "Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage". Interesting read, but for me the video of the debate between PK and Christoph Hess was an eye opener- name of the DVD is "Classical versus Classique". Anyone seen this video? Must say, I have to be on CH side on that one, but PK does make some interesting points.

Deepinmanure
Jan. 5, 2011, 10:02 AM
I wouldn't attempt to define it but here are a few who teach it! Sometimes called the French School and is where name Haute Ecole dressage came from.

Dominique Barbier
Bettina Drummund
Linda LeGrand-NY

Suzier
Jan. 5, 2011, 10:32 AM
The instinctual images that pop into my head when I hear the term "classical dressage" are the SRS, baroque horses, high school movements and lovely old black-and-white photos.

When I think about the term more seriously and what it means to me in evaluating riding or instructors, I think about the training scale, the purity of the gaits, improving the gaits and the horse's balance and strength and fitness, and not letting anything else -- especially short-term goals -- get in the way of that. I haven't seen enough top riders in person to say who qualifies, nor do I think I'm good enough as an evaluator to make that kind of call.

On a personal level, it means not getting so caught up in trying to achieve things quickly and prove to myself that I'm a "good rider" that I get tense, start staring at my horse's neck, ride front-to-back and so forth.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert or particularly knowledgable. This is just the word "classical" means to me.

Reiter
Jan. 5, 2011, 11:00 AM
The instinctual images that pop into my head when I hear the term "classical dressage" are the SRS, baroque horses, high school movements and lovely old black-and-white photos.

When I think about the term more seriously and what it means to me in evaluating riding or instructors, I think about the training scale, the purity of the gaits, improving the gaits and the horse's balance and strength and fitness, and not letting anything else -- especially short-term goals -- get in the way of that. I haven't seen enough top riders in person to say who qualifies, nor do I think I'm good enough as an evaluator to make that kind of call.

On a personal level, it means not getting so caught up in trying to achieve things quickly and prove to myself that I'm a "good rider" that I get tense, start staring at my horse's neck, ride front-to-back and so forth.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert or particularly knowledgable. This is just the word "classical" means to me.

This! Yes, the SRS and "High School" but to me it also means like Eq Trainer said,
training where the horse comes first. Following the training scale etc. Well said Suzier!

katie+tru
Jan. 5, 2011, 11:07 AM
To put it in the words of my instructor "Rollkur is not classical dressage, it's this "modern" dressage".

W. Museler's book, Riding Logic, is the closest thing to a Bible that I own. I highly recommend it. The language is a bit odd in places as it is translated from German, but it's very in-depth and truthful.

-flame suit on-

chisamba
Jan. 5, 2011, 12:36 PM
Dressage stopped being Classical, by my definition, when you no longer had to ride as if your life depended on it, and started to ride only as if your ego depended on it.

Dressage had for its foundations, cavalry riding. Being able to ride on varied terrain, but maintain enough control and training to be able to survive battle. Even in the days of Baucher, it was about not doing "tricks" but teaching the cavalry riders to ride and train their horses.

So, now, its about getting a score, and ego.

If i wanted to find a classical dressage trainer, i would look for one that was not afraid to jump a jump, ride on uneven trails, and allow the horse to have self carriage.

Is there such a person? my ego is afraid to let me find out lol

LookmaNohands
Jan. 5, 2011, 12:36 PM
To put it in the words of my instructor "Rollkur is not classical dressage, it's this "modern" dressage".

W. Museler's book, Riding Logic, is the closest thing to a Bible that I own. I highly recommend it. The language is a bit odd in places as it is translated from German, but it's very in-depth and truthful.

-flame suit on-

Yes, I still have "Riding Logic" somewhere. First read it many years ago. Good but I am liking those books who authors realize that not every horse one wishes to do dressage on is one naturally built for it. I guess that is why Phillip Karl interests me.

Thanks, Amazone. I will check out that video.

What does anyone think of Paul Belasik?

spirithorse
Jan. 5, 2011, 12:42 PM
Dressage stopped being Classical, by my definition, when you no longer had to ride as if your life depended on it, and started to ride only as if your ego depended on it.

Dressage had for its foundations, cavalry riding. Being able to ride on varied terrain, but maintain enough control and training to be able to survive battle. Even in the days of Baucher, it was about not doing "tricks" but teaching the cavalry riders to ride and train their horses.

So, now, its about getting a score, and ego.

If i wanted to find a classical dressage trainer, i would look for one that was not afraid to jump a jump, ride on uneven trails, and allow the horse to have self carriage.

Is there such a person? my ego is afraid to let me find out lol

Absolutely perfectly stated!
The dressage horse presented in the GP competitive arena could not get out of its own way with the rider up.:eek:

Now the Portuguese bull fighting horses are classically schooled and they can out dance even the Great Totilas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk

Carol O
Jan. 5, 2011, 01:38 PM
Classical riding is riding the way I do, and no one else does.

Wink....

Jocko
Jan. 5, 2011, 01:39 PM
I think it was stated on this very bb that:

"Classical dressage is a guy riding a white horse with a fat neck."

I hold to that definition.

Ibex
Jan. 5, 2011, 02:14 PM
And are we talking about "Classical" or "Klassikal"...? :lol:

We have a local "Klassikal" trainer whose students come to shows with their polls up and backs hollow, and generally with minimal control over their horses to the point that people wonder if it's even broke. Meanwhile the "Trainer" provides loud and nasty commentary on some lovely, thoughtful rides and riders that are more "modern".

stryder
Jan. 5, 2011, 02:25 PM
Dressage had for its foundations, cavalry riding. Being able to ride on varied terrain, but maintain enough control and training to be able to survive battle. Even in the days of Baucher, it was about not doing "tricks" but teaching the cavalry riders to ride and train their horses.



I agree with the rest of your quote, but do take exception to this. Before the "modern" cavalry, the study of riding and equitation was considered an art form. It took years. And it absolutely was about looking good - no nobleman wanted to fall off in front of the peasants.

But with the advent of the modern army, in which thousands of men and horses needed to be trained quickly, shortcuts were made. And it wasn't about the horses, it was about winning the war.

I think Spirithorse's 8-point list is a good start.

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 5, 2011, 03:11 PM
There is no universal definition. Period.

Dressage, like everything else, has evolved with time. As a rule, we are much more enlightened and humane toward horses in modern times. (cf. Black Beauty, beginnings of animal humane movement)

Today, I think classical dressage may be a synonym for performance or demonstration riding rather than competitive or sport riding. Although people use the term "classical" as some sort of a moral judgement, it is really used so loosely that it is meaningless.

horsefaerie
Jan. 5, 2011, 03:17 PM
Relaxation first. Self carriage.

A supple, responsive horse.

Education of the horse, not domination by the rider.

Elevating the horses education and manner of going to be the best it can be for that particular horse with the mind they present and the physical ability and conformation they possess.

Teaching the rider to use their body so that they can not only aid the work but allow it as well.

Great video btw. Nice changes!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 5, 2011, 03:25 PM
Since we have German classical, French classical[Guerenere], French classical[Baucher], Portuguese[Nuno], Spanish[Domeque],SRS classical, Russian classical[Fillis], we sure have alot of classical! Is it the result you obtain or the means you attained it that defines the work. Kottas has many videos on youtube that show horses being ridden at his home arena being schooled in drawreins. Is the former SRS cheif rider less than classical for this? I think not. The horses work great when they come off. As usual I diagree that that modern dressage is less classical when practiced by the people who do it well. I again suggest that modern dressage is an holistic combination of the best parts of ALL the aforementioned classical schools plus a 20th and 21rst century knowledge of sports medicine learned through science and vastly improved training of human athletes. Why do so many insist that ours is the one art/science that cant evole? Its kind of like the"folkys" that were hating on Bob Dylan for going electric in 1965. All that being said, now let me have it!!!!

Amazone
Jan. 5, 2011, 03:30 PM
Don, I like your way of thinking.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 5, 2011, 03:37 PM
Thank you!

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 5, 2011, 03:42 PM
Here's what I think of when the term "classical dressage" is used!


http://www.equibooks.com/dressage2.jpeg http://www.equibooks.com/dressage3.jpeg

BetterOffRed
Jan. 5, 2011, 03:53 PM
There is no universal definition. Period.

Dressage, like everything else, has evolved with time. As a rule, we are much more enlightened and humane toward horses in modern times. (cf. Black Beauty, beginnings of animal humane movement)

Today, I think classical dressage may be a synonym for performance or demonstration riding rather than competitive or sport riding. Although people use the term "classical" as some sort of a moral judgement, it is really used so loosely that it is meaningless.

DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!

It is a giant red flag to RUN as far away from anyone that uses this term!

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Jan. 5, 2011, 04:07 PM
Actually, this is very easy:

German Riding = classical = good
Dutch Riding = non-classical = bad

;)

mickeydoodle
Jan. 5, 2011, 04:41 PM
Absolutely perfectly stated!
The dressage horse presented in the GP competitive arena could not get out of its own way with the rider up.:eek:

Now the Portuguese bull fighting horses are classically schooled and they can out dance even the Great Totilas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk


That is a great video of trick riding, but it is not dressage. The horse is very well trained to do what he does. But it is not dressage in that it has no bend in the body in the turns, the horse is often cross cantering, it does not move through the body just in the legs, it is not "on the bit" it is OFF the bit- behind it with the rider not really touching the curb (note no snaffle, only curb, likely a spade bit) just like a Western trained horse- he is neck reining. Western training has the horses mostly off the bit, with the lightest if any connection.

As I said, the horse and rider are great at doing what they do for that sport, but it is not dressage, not even classical.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 5, 2011, 05:05 PM
To ILTOR. Those Germans sure paid alot for that badly trained Dutch horse a few weeks ago! A fool and his money......

mbm
Jan. 5, 2011, 05:07 PM
Classical Dressage is defined generally as any school that follows the french school via Pluvinel, de la Gueriniere, et al.

So the SRS, German traditional training, etc.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Jan. 5, 2011, 05:17 PM
There is 0 similarity between Pluvinel and Guerenere. And about as little between Guerenere and Balkanhol. This is not a knock on any of them. They simply do things that are totally different. Try to find a print of Pluvenel or Guerenere that depicts a horse being ridden in a snaffle or a double bridle. All curbs. If I was riding in a curb would I be classical to you? doubt it.

Wellspotted
Jan. 5, 2011, 05:23 PM
Franz Mairinger, maybe.

mbm
Jan. 5, 2011, 05:27 PM
There is 0 similarity between Pluvinel and Guerenere. And about as little between Guerenere and Balkanhol. This is not a knock on any of them. They simply do things that are totally different. Try to find a print of Pluvenel or Guerenere that depicts a horse being ridden in a snaffle or a double bridle. All curbs. If I was riding in a curb would I be classical to you? doubt it.

hey argue with Podhajsky , who i took that info from.

NOMIOMI1
Jan. 5, 2011, 05:52 PM
I've actually had better results from the "modern" trainers if you could label them any type, and avoid anyone who claims to be anything but a good trainer period.

I don't think labels are needed if you are good at what you do.

So... I guess I'm just a non-denominational rider lol

Amazone
Jan. 5, 2011, 08:17 PM
Yes, I agree with NOMIOMI1, I am a non-denominational rider too. Be open-minded, there's much to learn from more modern ways of training too- and no, I am not talking about the R-word, there is more to it than that.

katie+tru
Jan. 5, 2011, 08:24 PM
That is a great video of trick riding, but it is not dressage. The horse is very well trained to do what he does. But it is not dressage in that it has no bend in the body in the turns, the horse is often cross cantering, it does not move through the body just in the legs, it is not "on the bit" it is OFF the bit- behind it with the rider not really touching the curb (note no snaffle, only curb, likely a spade bit) just like a Western trained horse- he is neck reining. Western training has the horses mostly off the bit, with the lightest if any connection.

As I said, the horse and rider are great at doing what they do for that sport, but it is not dressage, not even classical.



Actually, it is to my understand that those who ride such horses regard one-handed riding with a curb to be the sign of a well trainer rider and horse. Two hands and a snaffle signifies either a green horse or a newbie rider. One-handedness was required because the riders were working with something in their hand at times. Whether or not it can be related to dressage is up for debate I suppose, but I've seen some pretty good horses doing that on the right diagonal, etc.

kpony
Jan. 5, 2011, 08:48 PM
gymnastic development of correct movement according to the horse's conformation and level of training. :)

spirithorse
Jan. 5, 2011, 08:51 PM
. One-handedness was required because the riders were working with something in their hand at times. Whether or not it can be related to dressage is up for debate I suppose, but I've seen some pretty good horses doing that on the right diagonal, etc.

Well said. I would dare say that the modern competitive dressage rider could do singluar movements one handed, but to do a complete GP test in that mode....not hardly.
Riding one handed demands super accurate and correct aids from the seat and legs, wether in a snaffle-curb-or-bitless; and the mistakes made are so obvious.

Spend some time with your horse and see if you can attain it....will open your eyes.:)

LookmaNohands
Jan. 5, 2011, 08:53 PM
There is 0 similarity between Pluvinel and Guerenere. And about as little between Guerenere and Balkanhol. This is not a knock on any of them. They simply do things that are totally different. Try to find a print of Pluvenel or Guerenere that depicts a horse being ridden in a snaffle or a double bridle. All curbs. If I was riding in a curb would I be classical to you? doubt it.

To me it is not the bit or even lack of it that is the thing. It is what you do with it. I have done a ton of bridleless riding and ride many horses in hackamores. Though they train in bits initially, Fredrick Pignon and Magali Delgado (the original "Cavalia") ride bridleless in their performances and use what seems like classical methods. Of course, they are mostly about performance dressage rather than competitive.

One of my reasons for starting this thread came from riding in a clinic with a guy from the Cadre Noir who showed grand prix dressage, grand prix jumpers and advanced level eventing. So he seemed to have had all the best qualifications and I watched a lesson he taught and he seemed quite reasonable and "classical." But he got on my green event prospect (OTTB) mare and proceeded to SET his hands and basically taught her to rear! The "lesson" was a complete disaster as she became more and more unruly until I asked him to get off so I could get on and settle her. She barely settled at all and the rearing stuck with her for a few months. I had warmed her up prior to the clinic and she was going very, very nicely. I had never had a man on her before and that might also have been a problem for her. She is not a really difficult horse but boy was that a disaster! I thought maybe he was used to warmbloods but he said he loved TBs and preferred them. Maybe it was just a fluke. I am still sort of interested in at least watching another clinic but I won't be riding that horse with him again. Admittedly the mare did really need work on giving in her jaw (which is one reason I was riding in the clinic) and has since, improved a lot. But like many OTTB's she learned to pull and that is a weakness that I would still like to improve further. She had never reared like that before!

I have spent many years eventing watching mostly, pretty poor dressage and have no desire to watch dressage dressage though I do go to dressage schooling shows. I would love to find a really good classical dressage person to learn from.

Does anyone have experience with Jean Claude Racinet?

alicen
Jan. 5, 2011, 09:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk[/URL]

Different kind of dances, sh.

Beentheredonethat
Jan. 5, 2011, 10:14 PM
Dominique Barbier-- "Riding into the Light"
Pshaw. I got a horse rescued from him. I have NEVER seen a horse before that refused to touch the bit. Until her. She was terrified. You could try to take contact as much as you could, and she'd just curl up into a terrified ball to avoid it. If you pushed it, she'd flip over backwards. The dentist said he'd never seen a horses with indents in the bars of the mouth before.

Classical.

spirithorse
Jan. 5, 2011, 10:16 PM
:D
Different kind of dances, sh.

True, however, the basic schooling is the same.

Please notice the supple reins, the halt, the reinback, the slide stop to reinback... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxo1LL8xZow

mickeydoodle
Jan. 5, 2011, 10:29 PM
:D

True, however, the basic schooling is the same.

Please notice the supple reins, the halt, the reinback, the slide stop to reinback... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxo1LL8xZow

No, the schooling is totally different. The horse is not supple to the reins, he is off the reins, he does not bend. The sliding stop is just like Western Reining- not dressage. The rein back is not that (see definition of rein back in any dressage test) it is not at all like the old GP movement where the horse halts, reins back, walks forward, reins back, walks or trots off. The horse in the video drops his shoulders in the sliding stop and reinback, not a dressage movement. The horse in the video is OFF the bit, ridden with neck reining, stiffly but very agile. Totally different from dressage where you want the horse to SEEK the bit, bend, work through the body.

spirithorse
Jan. 5, 2011, 10:47 PM
Mickeydoodle:
You would argue about this even if the best of the best agreed with my perspective...........but thats ok.:D

You obviously were not able to vies the supple reins because they are almost constantly moving....as for the bend, that is not the rider but the horse....as for the sliding stop it clearly shows the horse is correctly using a thoroughly engaged hindquarter....reinback is a reinback no matter what the forward motion is and this hors uses the hindquarters not the forehand as seen with the wondrous GP horses....the horse is not off the bit as is demonstrated by his own head carriage not manipulted by the rider.


No, the schooling is totally different. The horse is not supple to the reins, he is off the reins, he does not bend. The sliding stop is just like Western Reining- not dressage. The rein back is not that (see definition of rein back in any dressage test) it is not at all like the old GP movement where the horse halts, reins back, walks forward, reins back, walks or trots off. The horse in the video drops his shoulders in the sliding stop and reinback, not a dressage movement. The horse in the video is OFF the bit, ridden with neck reining, stiffly but very agile. Totally different from dressage where you want the horse to SEEK the bit, bend, work through the body.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 6, 2011, 12:46 AM
I think it was stated on this very bb that:

"Classical dressage is a guy riding a white horse with a fat neck."

I hold to that definition.

Thanks for the laugh, Jocko!

ThreeFigs
Jan. 6, 2011, 12:51 AM
BTDT, I bought Barbier's book in a moment of insanity. What a load.

The term "classical" is too often hijacked by charlatans to hoodwink the unwary.

Bats79
Jan. 6, 2011, 01:20 AM
Standard and authoritative rather than new or experimental:

Classical dressage training holds to the carefully handed down pricipals and doctrines.

Obviously there are different interpretations but developing from the likes of....

Pluvinel - who in his latter letters begged his King to not be brutal, to step aside from forceful training or crude and harsh tools.

De La Guiniere - who desired an incremental program to increase the suppleness and impulsion of the horse in systematic and correct manner

Baucher - who recanted hardness and lack of impulsion to develop the idea of non conflicting aids and the creation of suppleness from flexion and impulsion.

If you hold with "classical" dressage then you don't believe that artificial aids provide correct training (even if it does provide a stop-gap or safety measure for some time).

You don't believe that forcing a horse to work in a manner contrary to its natural way of going is a desireable outcome of training. Although you don't believe that a horse should never be challenged to give you his best or learn the discipline to make "his best" controllable.

You do NOT believe that the ends justify the means because the JOURNEY is more important the the arrival.

But of course those of you who say that people who believe in classical dressage are in some manner weird or insane, or charlatans have the right and the freedom of speech to say so. :( The rest of us have to continually justify ourselves and hold to higher standards than non-classical trainers / riders.

doublesstable
Jan. 6, 2011, 01:30 AM
Good Dressage is Good Dressage - if it's done right it's all Classical. IMHO.

Bats79
Jan. 6, 2011, 01:35 AM
Good Dressage is Good Dressage - if it's done right it's all Classical. IMHO.

Surely is - but define good dressage. Is that high scores in a test, is it producing multiple young horse champions, is it taking a broken down horse and making it a sound and balanced riding horse, is it getting a horse to the highest level in the shortest time? Many questions.

doublesstable
Jan. 6, 2011, 01:44 AM
Surely is - but define good dressage. Is that high scores in a test, is it producing multiple young horse champions, is it taking a broken down horse and making it a sound and balanced riding horse, is it getting a horse to the highest level in the shortest time? Many questions.

You are correct by saying this, there are many questions.. But in my mind I have my own answers. I know when I see good Dressage. What my eye likes; like artwork. I may like it and you may not.

Test scores mean nothing. I know beautifuly balanced horses that will not score well on a test because maybe his extensions aren't as impressive as a big WB.

I like how most Lusitanos are ridden.. balance, softness, suspension, moving from hind into a soft hand - and quiet tails..... ;)

EquineImagined
Jan. 6, 2011, 01:55 AM
I define it as:
A form of schooling in a discipline I have no ambition of ever pursuing, but when pursued correctly by others, can very much appreciate. :)

LookmaNohands
Jan. 6, 2011, 07:03 AM
Dominique Barbier-- "Riding into the Light"
Pshaw. I got a horse rescued from him. I have NEVER seen a horse before that refused to touch the bit. Until her. She was terrified. You could try to take contact as much as you could, and she'd just curl up into a terrified ball to avoid it. If you pushed it, she'd flip over backwards. The dentist said he'd never seen a horses with indents in the bars of the mouth before.

Classical.

I absolutely agree with you here!

The horse I rode that was trained by him wasn't dangerous though and I was able to correct the "curling."

The guy is a charlatan IMHO!

ThreeFigs
Jan. 6, 2011, 11:37 AM
Proves my point.

doublesstable
Jan. 6, 2011, 12:28 PM
If you pushed it, she'd flip over backwards. The dentist said he'd never seen a horses with indents in the bars of the mouth before.

Classical.


That is SOOO sad!!! Leg into hand not hand into the bars of the mouth....

Beentheredonethat
Jan. 6, 2011, 09:46 PM
Well, Barbier was (don't know if he still is) around here. The person I got her from "worked" for him for awhile and had to take two horses when she left to get them out of the situation. He used to clinic, and was apparently very popular with people who liked wine and being told they were wonderful. I don't know what the f**k he did, but he would claim he could ride a horse on a string. I guess if you start with the horse on barbed wire in the mouth, they will give to a string.

I eventually got her better, but it was a long road, and I have a torn muscle in my thigh from being flipped over on. It's too bad. If she were trained correctly, she could have been a fabulous dressage horse.

LookmaNohands
Jan. 7, 2011, 08:04 PM
Well, Barbier was (don't know if he still is) around here. The person I got her from "worked" for him for awhile and had to take two horses when she left to get them out of the situation. He used to clinic, and was apparently very popular with people who liked wine and being told they were wonderful. I don't know what the f**k he did, but he would claim he could ride a horse on a string. I guess if you start with the horse on barbed wire in the mouth, they will give to a string.

I eventually got her better, but it was a long road, and I have a torn muscle in my thigh from being flipped over on. It's too bad. If she were trained correctly, she could have been a fabulous dressage horse.

Apparently if you are a bored housewife he is just "DREAMY" especially with the opera music playing in the background.

The horses did NOT think as much of him in the clinic I watched years ago.

Anyone can call themselves a trainer!

ThreeFigs
Jan. 7, 2011, 08:50 PM
It's the cape, I think. Or the moustache.

I sold his drippy book on amazon once I'd read through it, hoping to find something useful. There was no "there" there.

katie+tru
Jan. 7, 2011, 08:52 PM
You do NOT believe that the ends justify the means because the JOURNEY is more important the the arrival.




This is pretty much what my trainer tells me every time I get upset about not getting something or when I continuously do something wrong while trying to achieve something good. For example, trying to push a horse to the rail with my inside leg but using my outside rein the whole time.

"I don't care when or if you get it. I just care about HOW you get it. If you keep trying for it the correct way it will eventually come."

Donella
Jan. 8, 2011, 12:13 AM
We have a local "Klassikal" trainer whose students come to shows with their polls up and backs hollow, and generally with minimal control over their horses to the point that people wonder if it's even broke. Meanwhile the "Trainer" provides loud and nasty commentary on some lovely, thoughtful rides and riders that are more "modern".

Don't forget the flopping reins. And yes, it's always "modern dressage" that is at fault and the reason they do so poorly. The judges are stupid ect ect


Clearly there is nothing even resembling one definition of classical dressage. That's why I find it particularly odd that modern competative dressage is supposed to reflect "classical" ideals/principles ect. I mean, how many times do we see posts here with someone ripping apart a top rider because they aren't "classical", horse's head isn't in front of vertical, horse isn't over tracking ect ect ect.

It's ridiculous. Dressage training has been evolving from day one and it still is and probably always will be.

spirithorse
Jan. 8, 2011, 02:17 PM
It's ridiculous. Dressage training has been evolving from day one and it still is and probably always will be.

Evolving into what? Western classes have their peanut rollers which violate the rules and dressage has its overbent behind the vertical which violate the rules.
That is not evolving, that is degradation of the sport.

tempichange
Jan. 8, 2011, 03:28 PM
Evolving into what? Western classes have their peanut rollers which violate the rules and dressage has its overbent behind the vertical which violate the rules.
That is not evolving, that is degradation of the sport.

I wouldn't classify all dressage riders who are competitive under that single banner.

Bats79
Jan. 8, 2011, 06:33 PM
We have a local "Klassikal" trainer whose students come to shows with their polls up and backs hollow, and generally with minimal control over their horses to the point that people wonder if it's even broke. Meanwhile the "Trainer" provides loud and nasty commentary on some lovely, thoughtful rides and riders that are more "modern".

Don't forget the flopping reins. And yes, it's always "modern dressage" that is at fault and the reason they do so poorly. The judges are stupid ect ect


Yes and we have a modern "competition" dressage trainer who keeps every pupil in running reins between lessons and tells people to push their horses so hard into the blocking hand that many of them eventually loose the plot entirely. Cost one of my friends (riding for her boss at the time) pins and plates in her hip.

Therefore (according to your belief that a bad trainer is actually a bad method) all sport dressage riders/trainers are cruel and brutal.