URGENT ACTION NEEDED TODAY! Update: Anti slaughter amendment vote today!!! 9/14

[onthebit12000]

US Senate Moves to Stop Horse Slaughter
URGENT ACTION NEEDED TODAY!

Sept. 9, 2005


Dear Humanitarian:

The US Senate is poised to vote on legislation to stop the brutal slaughter of American horses for human consumption in foreign countries. An identical measure by Congressmen John Sweeney (R-NY) and John Spratt (D-SC) passed overwhelmingly in the US House of Representatives on June 8.

Senator John Ensign (R-NV), one of only two veterinarians in Congress, and Senator Robert C. Byrd (D-WV) are expected to introduce an amendment to the Senate Agriculture Appropriations bill that prohibits the use of any federal taxpayer funds to slaughter horses.

Please take a moment to contact your Senators TODAY, urging his or her immediate support of the Ensign/Byrd amendment to the Senate Agriculture Appropriations Bill. The Senate will consider the amendment during the week of Sept. 12 (most likely on Tuesday, Sept. 13), so your immediate assistance is critical. If you would like additional facts or need to find the name of your Senators, visit our Web site at http://www.saplonline.org/horses.htm or call us at (703) 836-4300.

WHAT YOU CAN DO:

Please call or fax your Senators today. Refer to the fact sheet below for specific points to discuss.

Ask your Senators to support the Ensign/Byrd Agriculture Appropriations Amendment (prohibiting your tax dollars from being spent on horse slaughter) and respectfully request his or her specific position the issue.

Capitol Hill Operator: (202) 224-3121 (they will help you reach your Senators)

Your immediate assistance is essential to ensure the Senate hears from an outpouring of concerned constituents; the House of Representatives did, and the horses won. Please share our "Dear Humanitarian" eAlert with family, friends and coworkers, and encourage them to make phone calls and send faxes, too. As always, please share any responses you receive from Congress with us.

Thank you so much for your help!

Sincerely,

Cathy Liss
Legislative Director
Society for Animal Protective Legislation
(A Division of the Animal Welfare Institute)
http://www.saplonline.org/

________________________________

FACTS ABOUT HORSE SLAUGHTER

Last year three foreign-owned slaughter plants cruelly slaughtered more than 65,000 horses for human consumption in Europe and Asia.
Tens of thousands more of America's horses were exported and slaughtered in other countries. Slaughter is NOT humane euthanasia. Horses suffer horribly on the way to and during slaughter.
Passage of the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act (AHSPA) will reduce animal suffering - hence its wide support throughout the equestrian and veterinary world, as well as the humane community.
Americans support an end to horse slaughter for human consumption overwhelmingly (polls from Kentucky, Texas and Utah respectively show that 82, 72 and 69 percent of those questioned oppose the practice). In California, a 1998 ballot initiative (Prop. 6) banning horse slaughter for human consumption passed with 60 percent of the vote.

1. Sick and old horses to slaughter

Question: Is it true that slaughter is only a last resort for infirm, dangerous or horses who are no longer serviceable?

Answer: 92.3 percent of horses arriving at slaughter plants in this country are in "good" condition, according to the US Department of Agriculture's Guidelines for Handling and Transporting Equines to Slaughter.

2. Neglect and abuse

Question: Will horse abuse and neglect cases rise significantly following a ban on slaughter?

Answer: There has been no documented rise in abuse and neglect cases in California since the state banned horse slaughter for human consumption in 1998. There is no documented rise in Illinois following closure of the state's only horse slaughter plant in 2002.

3. Cost of caring for "unwanted horses."

Question: If there is a ban on horse slaughter, will horse rescue and retirement groups have the resources to take care of unwanted horses? Should the government have to pay for the care of horses given up voluntarily by their owners?

Answer: Not every horse going to slaughter will need to be absorbed into the rescue community. Many will be sold to a new owner, others will be kept longer and a licensed veterinarian will humanely euthanize some. Opponents of this legislation admit passage of the bill will not necessarily lead to an increase in the number of horses sent to rescue facilities, precisely because humane euthanasia is so widely used. It is not the government's responsibility to provide for the care of horses given up voluntarily by their owners, as these animals are private property. Hundreds of horse rescue organizations operate around the country, and additional facilities are being established (a list is available).

4. A safe and humane solution for sick, old and unwanted horses

Question: If slaughter is not an option, what will we do with sick, old and "unwanted horses?"

Answer: Approximately 690,000 horses die annually in this country (10 percent of an estimated population of 6.9 million) and the vast majority are not slaughtered, but euthanized and rendered or buried without any negative environmental impact. Humane euthanasia and carcass disposal is highly affordable and widely available. The average cost of having a horse humanely euthanized and safely disposing of the animal's carcass is approximately $225, while the average monthly cost of keeping a horse is approximately $200.

5. Export of horses for slaughter abroad

Question: If there is a ban on horse slaughter in the United States, will there be an increase in the export of horses for foreign slaughter? Will horses suffer from longer transport for slaughter in countries where there may be weaker welfare laws?

Answer: Horse slaughter has declined dramatically in the United States over the past decade, but there has been no correlating increase in the number of American horses exported for slaughter abroad. Further, the AHSPA prohibits the export of horses for slaughter abroad and contains clear enforcement and penalty provisions to prevent this from happening. Risk of federal prosecution and the high costs associated with illegally transporting horses long distances for slaughter abroad are strong deterrents.

6. Standards of care at sanctuaries and rescue organizations

Question: Is it true no standards exist for horse rescue facilities that take unwanted horses?

Answer: The Doris Day Animal League and the Animal Welfare Institute published "Basic Guidelines for Operating an Equine Rescue or Retirement Facility" in 2004. Additionally, the Association of Sanctuaries and the American Sanctuaries Association provide accreditation programs, a code of ethics and guidelines for the operation of sanctuaries and rescue organizations. Horse rescue groups must also provide for the welfare of horses in their custody in compliance with state and local animal welfare laws.

7. Use of horsemeat in pet food

Question: If there is a ban on horse slaughter, will horsemeat no longer be available for pet food?

Answer: There is no horsemeat in pet food. This practice stopped decades ago and has some connection to the enactment of protections for America's wild horses in 1971. The US public and Congress were outraged to learn federal agencies were rounding up and allowing the exploitation and slaughter of these national treasures for items such as pet food. Some by-products of the horse slaughter industry are used in various consumer items, but they are derived from the rendering of dead horses (a different process than slaughter and not affected by the AHSPA) and other animals.

[onthebit12000]

US Senate Moves to Stop Horse Slaughter
URGENT ACTION NEEDED TODAY!

Sept. 9, 2005


Dear Humanitarian:

The US Senate is poised to vote on legislation to stop the brutal slaughter of American horses for human consumption in foreign countries. An identical measure by Congressmen John Sweeney (R-NY) and John Spratt (D-SC) passed overwhelmingly in the US House of Representatives on June 8.

Senator John Ensign (R-NV), one of only two veterinarians in Congress, and Senator Robert C. Byrd (D-WV) are expected to introduce an amendment to the Senate Agriculture Appropriations bill that prohibits the use of any federal taxpayer funds to slaughter horses.

Please take a moment to contact your Senators TODAY, urging his or her immediate support of the Ensign/Byrd amendment to the Senate Agriculture Appropriations Bill. The Senate will consider the amendment during the week of Sept. 12 (most likely on Tuesday, Sept. 13), so your immediate assistance is critical. If you would like additional facts or need to find the name of your Senators, visit our Web site at http://www.saplonline.org/horses.htm or call us at (703) 836-4300.

WHAT YOU CAN DO:

Please call or fax your Senators today. Refer to the fact sheet below for specific points to discuss.

Ask your Senators to support the Ensign/Byrd Agriculture Appropriations Amendment (prohibiting your tax dollars from being spent on horse slaughter) and respectfully request his or her specific position the issue.

Capitol Hill Operator: (202) 224-3121 (they will help you reach your Senators)

Your immediate assistance is essential to ensure the Senate hears from an outpouring of concerned constituents; the House of Representatives did, and the horses won. Please share our "Dear Humanitarian" eAlert with family, friends and coworkers, and encourage them to make phone calls and send faxes, too. As always, please share any responses you receive from Congress with us.

Thank you so much for your help!

Sincerely,

Cathy Liss
Legislative Director
Society for Animal Protective Legislation
(A Division of the Animal Welfare Institute)
http://www.saplonline.org/

________________________________

FACTS ABOUT HORSE SLAUGHTER

Last year three foreign-owned slaughter plants cruelly slaughtered more than 65,000 horses for human consumption in Europe and Asia.
Tens of thousands more of America's horses were exported and slaughtered in other countries. Slaughter is NOT humane euthanasia. Horses suffer horribly on the way to and during slaughter.
Passage of the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act (AHSPA) will reduce animal suffering - hence its wide support throughout the equestrian and veterinary world, as well as the humane community.
Americans support an end to horse slaughter for human consumption overwhelmingly (polls from Kentucky, Texas and Utah respectively show that 82, 72 and 69 percent of those questioned oppose the practice). In California, a 1998 ballot initiative (Prop. 6) banning horse slaughter for human consumption passed with 60 percent of the vote.

1. Sick and old horses to slaughter

Question: Is it true that slaughter is only a last resort for infirm, dangerous or horses who are no longer serviceable?

Answer: 92.3 percent of horses arriving at slaughter plants in this country are in "good" condition, according to the US Department of Agriculture's Guidelines for Handling and Transporting Equines to Slaughter.

2. Neglect and abuse

Question: Will horse abuse and neglect cases rise significantly following a ban on slaughter?

Answer: There has been no documented rise in abuse and neglect cases in California since the state banned horse slaughter for human consumption in 1998. There is no documented rise in Illinois following closure of the state's only horse slaughter plant in 2002.

3. Cost of caring for "unwanted horses."

Question: If there is a ban on horse slaughter, will horse rescue and retirement groups have the resources to take care of unwanted horses? Should the government have to pay for the care of horses given up voluntarily by their owners?

Answer: Not every horse going to slaughter will need to be absorbed into the rescue community. Many will be sold to a new owner, others will be kept longer and a licensed veterinarian will humanely euthanize some. Opponents of this legislation admit passage of the bill will not necessarily lead to an increase in the number of horses sent to rescue facilities, precisely because humane euthanasia is so widely used. It is not the government's responsibility to provide for the care of horses given up voluntarily by their owners, as these animals are private property. Hundreds of horse rescue organizations operate around the country, and additional facilities are being established (a list is available).

4. A safe and humane solution for sick, old and unwanted horses

Question: If slaughter is not an option, what will we do with sick, old and "unwanted horses?"

Answer: Approximately 690,000 horses die annually in this country (10 percent of an estimated population of 6.9 million) and the vast majority are not slaughtered, but euthanized and rendered or buried without any negative environmental impact. Humane euthanasia and carcass disposal is highly affordable and widely available. The average cost of having a horse humanely euthanized and safely disposing of the animal's carcass is approximately $225, while the average monthly cost of keeping a horse is approximately $200.

5. Export of horses for slaughter abroad

Question: If there is a ban on horse slaughter in the United States, will there be an increase in the export of horses for foreign slaughter? Will horses suffer from longer transport for slaughter in countries where there may be weaker welfare laws?

Answer: Horse slaughter has declined dramatically in the United States over the past decade, but there has been no correlating increase in the number of American horses exported for slaughter abroad. Further, the AHSPA prohibits the export of horses for slaughter abroad and contains clear enforcement and penalty provisions to prevent this from happening. Risk of federal prosecution and the high costs associated with illegally transporting horses long distances for slaughter abroad are strong deterrents.

6. Standards of care at sanctuaries and rescue organizations

Question: Is it true no standards exist for horse rescue facilities that take unwanted horses?

Answer: The Doris Day Animal League and the Animal Welfare Institute published "Basic Guidelines for Operating an Equine Rescue or Retirement Facility" in 2004. Additionally, the Association of Sanctuaries and the American Sanctuaries Association provide accreditation programs, a code of ethics and guidelines for the operation of sanctuaries and rescue organizations. Horse rescue groups must also provide for the welfare of horses in their custody in compliance with state and local animal welfare laws.

7. Use of horsemeat in pet food

Question: If there is a ban on horse slaughter, will horsemeat no longer be available for pet food?

Answer: There is no horsemeat in pet food. This practice stopped decades ago and has some connection to the enactment of protections for America's wild horses in 1971. The US public and Congress were outraged to learn federal agencies were rounding up and allowing the exploitation and slaughter of these national treasures for items such as pet food. Some by-products of the horse slaughter industry are used in various consumer items, but they are derived from the rendering of dead horses (a different process than slaughter and not affected by the AHSPA) and other animals.

[county]

Totally agree old horses, lame, etc. are not the main ones slaughered. Horse slaugher is no differant then any other livestock the most desired ones are younger and in good shape thats the ones with the most meat.

Your numbers are way off though, according to the AHC in 2004 there were over 9 million horses in the U.S.

And horse meat is used in pet foods, I've delevered some to a dog food company here in Mn. myself from the rendering plant.

[blondy]

when do they vote?

[onthebit12000]

Blondy,

The vote is expected to come as early as next Tuesday.

[onthebit12000]

The senate is expected to vote on the Ensign/Byrd amendment tomorrow!

Please continue making faxes and calls both today and tomorrow!

Please crosspost this message far and wide!

ALABAMA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Sen. Richard C. Shelby (R-AL) 202-224-5744
202-224-3416
Senator Jeff Sessions (R-AL) 202-224-4124 202-224-3149

ALASKA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) 202-224-3004 202-224-2354
Senator Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) 202-224-6665
202-224-5301

ARIZONA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator John McCain (R-AZ) 202-224-2235 202-228-2862
Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ) 202-224-4521 202-224-2207

ARKANSAS

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Blanche Lambert Lincoln (D-AR) 202-224-4843
202-228-1371
Senator Mark Pryor (D-AR) 202-224-2353 202-228-0908

CALIFORNIA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 202-224-3841
202-228-3954
Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) 202-224-3553 415-956-6701


COLORADO

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Ken Salazar (D-CO) 202-224-5852 202-228-5036
Senator Wayne Allard (R-CO) 202-224-5941 202-224-6471

CONNECTICUT

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Christopher J. Dodd (D-CT) 202-224-2823
202-224-1083
Senator Joseph I. Lieberman (D-CT) 202-224-4041
202-224-9750

DELAWARE:

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Joseph R. Biden, Jr. (D-DE) 202-224-5042
202-224-0139
Senator Thomas R. Carper (D-DE) 202-224-2441
202-228-2190

FLORIDA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Mel Martinez (R-FL) 202-224-3041 202-228-5171
Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL) 202-224-5274 202-228-2183

GEORGIA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Saxby Chambliss (D-GA) 202-224-3521
202-228-2090
Senator Johnny Isakson (R-GA) 202-224-3643
202-228-0724

HAWAII

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Daniel K. Inouye (D-HI) 202-224-3934
202-224-6747
Senator Daniel K. Akaka (D-HI) 202-224-6361
202-224-2126

IDAHO

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Larry E. Craig (R-ID) 202-224-2752
202-228-1067
Senator Mike Crapo (R-ID) 202-224-6142 202-228-1375

ILLINOIS

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Richard J. Durbin (D-IL) 202-224-2152
202-228-0400
Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) 202-224-2854 202-228-4260

INDIANA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX
Senator Richard G. Lugar (R-IN) 202-224-4814
202-228-0360
Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN) 202-224-5623 202-228-1377

IOWA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Charles E. Grassley (R-IA) 202-224-3744
202-224-6020
Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) 202-224-3254 202-224-9369

KANSAS

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS) 202-224-6521 202-228-1265
Senator Pat Roberts (R-KS) 202-224-4774 202-224-3514

KENTUCKY

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) 202-224-2541
202-224-2499
Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY) 202-224-4343 202-228-1373

LOUISIANA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator David Vitter (R-LA) 202-224-4623 202-228-5061
Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA) 202-224-5824 202-224-9735

MAINE

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Olympia Snowe (R-ME) 202-224-5344 202-224-1946
Senator Susan Collins (R-ME) 202-224-2523 202-224-2693

MARYLAND

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Paul Sarbanes (D-MD) 202-224-4524 202-224-1651
Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) 202-224-4654
202-224-8858

MASSACHUSETTS

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA) 202-224-4543
202-224-2417
Senator John Kerry (D-MA) 202-224-2742 202-224-8525

MICHIGAN

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) 202-224-6221 202-224-1388
Senator Debbie A. Stabenow (D-MI) 202-224-4822
202-228-0325

MINNESOTA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Mark Dayton (D-MN) 202-224-3244 202-228-2186
Senator Norm Coleman (R-MN) 202-224-5641 202-224-1152

MISSISSIPPI

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Thad Cochran (R-MS) 202-224-5054 202-224-9450
Senator Trent Lott (R-MS) 202-224-6253 202-224-2262

MISSOURI

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Christopher S. Bond (R-MO) 202-224-5721
202-224-8149
Senator Jim Talent (R-MO) 202-224-6154 202-228-1518

MONTANA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Max Baucus (D-MT) 202-224-2651 202-224-0515
Senator Conrad R. Burns (R-MT) 202-224-2644
202-224-8594

NEBRASKA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) 202-224-4224 202-224-5213
Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) 202-224-6551 202-228-0012

NEVADA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) 202-224-3542 202-224-7327
Senator John Ensign (R-NV) 202-224-6244 202-228-2193

NEW HAMPSHIRE

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Judd Gregg (R-NH) 202-224-3324 202-224-4952
Senator John Sununu (R-NH) 202-224-2841 202-228-4131

NEW JERSEY

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Jon S. Corzine (D-NJ) 202-224-4744
202-228-2197
Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) 202-224-3224
202-228-4054

NEW MEXICO

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Pete V. Domenici (R- NM) 202-224-6621
202-228-0900
Senator Jeff Bingaman (D- NM) 202-224-5521
202-224-2852

NEW YORK

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) 202-224-6542
202-228-3027
Senator Hillary R. Clinton (D-NY) 202-224-4451
202-228-0282

NORTH CAROLINA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Richard Burr (R-NC) 202-224-3154 202-228-2981
Senator Elizabeth Dole (R-NC) 202-224-6342
202-224-1100

NORTH DAKOTA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Kent Conrad (D-ND) 202-224-2043 202-224-7776
Senator Byron L. Dorgan (D-ND) 202-224-2551
202-224-1193

OHIO

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Mike DeWine (R-OH) 202-224-2315 202-224-6519
Senator George Voinovich (R-OH) 202-224-3353
202-228-1382

OKLAHOMA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) 202-224-5754 202-224-6008
Senator James M. Inhofe (R-OK) 202-224-4721
202-228-0380

OREGON

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) 202-224-5244 202-228-2717
Senator Gordon Smith (R-OR) 202-224-3753 202-228-3997

PENNSYLVANIA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA) 202-224-4254 202-228-1229
Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA) 202-224-6324 202-228-0604

RHODE ISLAND

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) 202-224-4642 202-224-4680
Senator Lincoln D. Chafee (R-RI) 202-224-2921
202-228-2853

SOUTH CAROLINA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator James DeMint (R-SC) 202-224-6121 202-228-5143
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) 202-224-5972
202-224-3808

SOUTH DAKOTA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator John Thune (R-SD) 202-224-2321 202-228-5429
Senator Tim Johnson (D-SD) 202-224-5842 202-228-5765

TENNESSEE

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator William H. Frist (R-TN) 202-224-3344
202-228-1264
Senator Lamar Alexander (R-TN) 202-224-4944
202-228-3398

TEXAS

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX) 202-224-5922
202-224-0776
Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) 202-224-2934 202-228-2856

UTAH

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT) 202-224-5251
202-224-6331
Senator Robert F. Bennett (R-UT) 202-224-5444
202-228-1168

VERMONT

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Patrick J. Leahy (D-VT) 202-224-4242
202-224-3479
Senator James M. Jeffords (I-VT) 202-224-5141
202-228-0776

VIRGINIA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator John W. Warner (R-VA) 202-224-2023
202-224-6295
Senator George Allen (R-VA) 202-224-4024 202-224-5432

WASHINGTON

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Patty Murray (D-WA) 202-224-2621 202-224-0238
Senator Maria Cantwell (D-WA) 202-224-3441
202-228-0514

WEST VIRGINIA


Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Robert C. Byrd (D-WV) 202-224-3954
202-228-0002
Sen John D. Rockefeller, IV (D-WV) 202-224-6472
202-224-7665

WISCONSIN

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Herb Kohl (D-WI) 202-224-5653 202-224-9787
Senator Russell D. Feingold (D-WI) 202-224-5323
202-224-2725

WYOMING

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Craig Thomas (R-WY) 202-224-6441 202-224-1724
Senator Michael Enzi (R-WY) 202-224-3424 202-228-0359

[luvmytbs]

Sent faxes to my two senators last Friday.

[county]

Thanks for the numbers I've already contacted mine here in Mn. to vote against it but freinds in the Dakotas just asked me this past weekend if I knew how to get ahold of theirs to do so.

[onthebit12000]

Thanks, luvmytb's! Please try to follow up with a phone call as well.

Gail

[certifiedgirl]

I called both my senators and they support the Ensign amendment! yay! Thanks for posting the contacts, I havent been on coth much since the cber thread was banned but knew I could get the scoop here! Thanks

[onthebit12000]

That's great news, certifiedgirl!!

Thanks so very much for all of your hard work!

Gail

[gazenna]

Country, Why can't you just start your own thread for those of you that are for slaughter?

[SafeHorses]

I phoned and faxed my two senators (Boxer and Feinstein) and am going to fax as many other senators as I can without my boss catching me!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I heard elsewhere that the calls and faxes are getting some notice...keep it up everyone!

[gazenna]

I already contacted my senators, and talked to someone in Senator Lugars office and he told me that they are getting a loooot of calls today. He asked me questions also and I was very willing to talk to him as to why I am against slaughter. With the other senator all I was able to do was voice that I am against slaughter and that was it. I also called the IL. senators....

[Nikki^]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazenna:
Country, Why can't you just start your own thread for those of you that are for slaughter? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? She just proved that horsemeat is used in pet food.

Putting Flame suit on...
And what is so wrong with horse slaughter? It's better then them standing in a field starving to death. I think they need to find a way to put them down without suffering and more humane shipping to the plants. That's what needs to be changed.

Tell me, what will happen to the horses if the bill is passed? Are you and the rest of you Anti-slaughter people going to take them under your wing? Are you going to pay for their care until they die of old age?

What about Cows, Pigs, Goats, Lambs, Chickens? Is it ok for them to be slaughtered?

I'm not trying to be snarky but I want to know. If I could have it my way, there wouldn't be any suffering of animals including humans.

[SafeHorses]

Got about half the list faxed at this point...

[gazenna]

Nikki....Country is a he not a she not that it matters.aAs far as horses standing out in a field straving. Most people that have let horses strave do let them strave with no intentions of getting rid of them first. I have seen it happen over and over. And also as far as what will happen to all those horses, well that remains to be seen does it not. Maybe some people with be less likely to just dump their horses off at a sale and decide to put just a little more effort into fixing a problem that they may be having with their horse. Maybe some people will be less likely to breed every mare they have to find that perfect horse that they think will come out of their mare.Maybe the people who use lies to buy someones advertized horse that they think is gonna go to a good home will stop doing that. Maybe the cruelity and abuse at the auctions will cease since breaking laws at those places seems to be exceptable, and nothing gets done about it. Maybe horse thieves will think twice about stealing other peoples horses. Maybe other cruel sports where horses are used and tortured for the spectators pleasure will stop. There are many more maybes I am sure. So why are you for slaughter? Do you or someone in your family deal with slaughter bound horses? As far as all of us that are anti slaughter and your remark about taken all those horses that would have gone to slaughter under our wings, that is a ridiculous question cause those horses just will never fall in our laps it is up to the owners of those horses to be responsiable for them. Now that is not saying if one would happen to come my way that I would not do whats right and take him/her under my wing so to speak. I am certain that most if not all anti slaughter people feel like I do.....

[county]

For all your maybes theres a maybe not. Until some thought has gone into the end result of this bill I'm against it. Its basically axbill just to have one no long term thought has gone into it. Pretty much done on emotion nothing else. I'm for horse welfare not peoples agendas.

[county]

BTW gazenna I've asked this before but never got an answer but could you explain your therory that breeding makes more horse go to slaugher. We slaugher about 6 times fewer horses now then 10 years ago but theres about 30% more horses in the U.S. now then 10 years ago. The numbewrs don't come close to supporting your claim.

And horse theif will decline? Why? The anti slaugher groups say it will not be profatable to haul truck loads of horses to plants in Can. and Mex. So how is it profatable for someone to steal a horse and sell it at a plant in the U.S.?

[SweatySaddlepad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
BTW gazenna I've asked this before but never got an answer but could you explain your therory that breeding makes more horse go to slaugher. We slaugher about 6 times fewer horses now then 10 years ago but theres about 30% more horses in the U.S. now then 10 years ago. The numbewrs don't come close to supporting your claim.


County have you read the white paper or not, it answers this question quite well? http://www.trfinc.org/news/TRF_WhitePaper.pdf

And horse theif will decline? Why? The anti slaugher groups say it will not be profatable to haul truck loads of horses to plants in Can. and Mex. So how is it profatable for someone to steal a horse and sell it at a plant in the U.S.? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy I don't get this statement? "How is it profitable to steal a horse and sell it to slaughter?" Doesn't that answer itself?

As far has trucking horses into Canada and Mexico for slaughter, the way fuel prices are going this will not be a profitable undertaking, once HR 503 passes it would be illegal and hardly worth the money for a black market.

Your above statement says it all, we are slaughtering far fewer horses and have a larger population of horses in the US. Obviously people are being more responsible, certainly the stats don't indicate an abuse and neglect rise. Those who are left are irresponsible owners and breeders, those who are duped at auctions and yes, stolen horses. Once again boils down to money, money, money............. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[county]

I can't get your link to open for some reason. But I agree totally about the abuse and neglect statement neither has anything to do with slaugher. Slaugher exists for two reasons only, theres a profit and demand for horse meat. Take away either one and it no longer exists.

And like I asked if they can't make a profit selling stolen horses in Can. and Mex. how will they selling thwm here? I live a whole lot closer to Can. plants then those in the U.S. When O lived in Az. I lived much closer to Mex. plants then those in the U.S. Make it illegal to cross the border with them? Thats the funniest thing there is its not exactly legal to cross the borders with drugs and illegal aliens now but that hardly matters.

[riverpup]

I just faxed my senators. It really helped to have that list posted here. Thank you.

[grayarabs]

I just called my listed senators. Neither office will give their positions but one office seemed to think their senator was anti-slaughter. When will they vote? Today I will definitely be wearing my "until they are safe" bracelet.

.alsua

[Nikki^]

gazenna: Thank you for your reply. I don't have anybody in my family nor do I know anyone who's into the horse slaughter business.

I want to know what's going to happen if the bill is passed. Will there be a "Black Market" for horse meat? What's going to happen to all the horses that nobody wants? Where are they going to go? Is this going to stop people from stealing horses for slaughter?

[Daydream Believer]

Nikki,

No one else seems to be answering you, so I will. Your concerns about "where will all the horses go" have been visited many times on the discussions here which is probably why no one is answering. There is no such thing as an excess horse problem.

Slaughter is driven by demand for horse meat and not how many unwanted horses there are in America. Pro slaughter folks would like you to believe they are doing a great service by ridding us of our unwanted horses but that just ain't true. The folks that abuse horses do it regardless of having slaughter as a way to dispose of their horses currently. Like County said (and he's pro slaughter) they want the young, healthy horses..not the old, skinny ones from someone's back field anyway.

Here's the facts: In 1990, over 350,000 horses were slaughtered a year. Last year, that number was down to 60,000 and it has been in sharp delcline for many years...60,000 is but a small fraction of the total horse population in the US. Since the sharp declines in slaughter over a decade ago, there has been no discernable increase in abuse and neglect as a result of that decrease in slaughter. As a matter of fact there seems to be the opposite effect...in states where there are slaughterhouses operatiing like Texas, there is a very high incidence of neglect and abuse as well as stolen horses. Same with Illnois where Cavel is.

Please read this paper and it will help you understand why the "unwanted horse" crisis that is being used as pro slaughter propaganda is faulted.

http://www.trfinc.org/news/TRF_WhitePaper.pdf

[county]

I don't think abuse has anything to do with slaugher and I'm pro slaugher. Saying its a reason pro slaugher people say its a reason is no differant then saying anti slaugher people say over breeding is the reason there is slaugher.

Neither statement makes sense. Is the reason we slaugher cattle, hods, sheep, and poultry because theres to many of them?

[ComingAttraction]

I am not opposed to slaughter. What I am opposed to is how they treat these animals before and during slaughter. I do not know how we will support horses if some don't go to slaughter. I would think that the horses would just go over to Canada or Mexico to the plants there. So we really will have stopped nothing but run business out of our country. We will have changed nothing. They will still be handled inhumanely. We need to change the laws as to how they are handled. That is how I feel. I don't know that I believe that this will not impact our already full rescues. I just need more info. for a better solution. I need to see a better plan.

[nettiemaria]

Welp - Guess what, slaughter is illegal here in MO, and guess what I seen at the auction a couple of weeks ago, an Illinois plated, non-traditional, single loader (compliant with new 2006 laws) semi! Let's see, I don't know any horse people with a rig like that, never seen anything like it before. Pretty weird. Pretty (101%) sure killer buyer. So, who is going to enforce the "enforcers", whose gonna arrest the people who don't comply, the POLICE!!!??? (NOT), who is going to make the USDA do their job (that we are currently funding, that they don't do).
For the people who are pro-slaughter but see serious issues, why do those people sit back and do nothing? Oh, we'll take the evil, because we need horse slaughter in this country because (just post all of County's posts . . . )

So, it's okay to make them go through that if it serves it's ultimate purpose?

The one thing that did make me feel okay at the auction is that the old starved mare on her last leg, WON'T be going to slaughter, too skinny, too near death. A lady picked her up for $50.00 and is going to let her live her last days.

[county]

I don't know of any meat buyers that buy skinny horses for slaugher. Theres no meat on them so why would they want them? And if there was a profit with them do you really think they wouldn't bid $50?

BTW when did they make it illegal to slaugher horses in MO.? I know its been illegal to sell horse meat there for years but never knew it was illegal to sell horses to someone that wants to take them to slaughter.

[county]

I think thats one of the bigger myths anti slaghter people spread. That meat buyers go around buying up old, lame, skinny, and foals for meat. Fact is the plants won't even pay for horses under 900 lbs. Its no differant then any other species of livestock the younger fatter animal has the most meat. The ones no one wants more then the meat buyers is what there after the most.

[nettiemaria]

I did not say that the meat buyers bought her. Heck, there wasn't any meat on her to buy, NOTHING but bones. Poor thing.

That's what a pro-slaughter person told me who was wanting to buy my colt. He is pretty active in the horse breeding and showing business. I haven't confirmed it yet because I am reviewing this whole issue (again) (before going much further), but he said they outlawed it 2 years ago. He is the one who even brought up the discussion, I think in an attempt to bring me down on my price (before I even stated it to him), stating that the horse market was bad, and that it set the bottom dollar.

I will need to confirm it when I get time. According to him, and he I think does what you do, it is illegal to transport, sell or buy a horse for slaughter for human consumption in MO.

[county]

It could be but I know up until a couple years ago the only state it was that way is Ca. and there ag department admits its a meaningless law. Theres no money allocated for enforcement and they admit a number of them go to Mex. through AZ.

I would think the same would hold true in any state that makes such a law unless there willing to put up the money to enforce it. And even thats going to be hard to prove.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I think thats one of the bigger myths anti slaghter people spread. That meat buyers go around buying up old, lame, skinny, and foals for meat. Fact is the plants won't even pay for horses under 900 lbs. Its no differant then any other species of livestock the younger fatter animal has the most meat. The ones no one wants more then the meat buyers is what there after the most. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense, county, but I think you have that backwards. It's the pro slaughter advocates that claim that all they are doing is taking old, skinny, broken down horses that have no where else to go. It's the anti slaughter advocates who are pointing out that the industry wants young, fat, healthy horses (who could have a future elsewhere for the most part) since they make for a better product.

[riverpup]

Are there breeders who produce horses with the intent of fattening them in order to sell them as meat horses?

If there is profit in it, would people do this?

[gazenna]

Country, Why is it you support slaughter you say and know that they dont want the old skinny, sick horses? I don't understand your way of thinking at all. How can you justify and be fore the torture of young, healthy, horses, and pregnant mares? Since you seem to talk as if you are on top of everything how can you condone this? All what you say tells me that you are all for animal abuse. I just can't see how anyone can be both ways on this issue because if you really gave a darn you would also fight for the young, healthy and pregnant equines. You have openingly said that you have sent horses to slaughter so my guess is in order for you to continue to do this you have to have a cold heart and support this barbaric practice. I am sure you have other selfish reasons as well in supporting horse slaughter. There is a guy that lives a few miles down the road from me and I got a call from a friend of mine and she told me that this guy took 6 of his bred brood mares to the auction last Fri. and put these mares on the kill pen. I drove by these mares just about everyday and they were big and beautiful. there are many people in the area that are very upset that he did this. I know when I see him I am gonna ask him why he did not take the time to advertize these mares. As far as I'm concerned this guy did not want anyone having these mares because he is very selfish mined. He got in over his head and then the poor mares which he chose to breed have to pay with their lives. I know that if he would have let people in our area know he was gonna take these mares to the sale he would have been able to sell them all to local people. If I had known he was gonna do this I would have bought one of them. This is why horse slaughter is wrong it makes for any easy out for many people that think that breeding horses is like sitting on a gold mind or oil. Again another perfect example of the unlucky horse verses the unwanted horse. These mares and unborn babies were unwanted by him and I am sure wanted by others if given the chance which makes them unlucky in my book.

[SafeHorses]

Read on a another forum that the vote may not happen until next week. This gives everyone more time to contact their senators.

[onthebit12000]

Amenment vote update:

Safehorses, you are right. It looks as though the vote will not come until likely early next week. Once the Judge Roberts confirmation hearings are over, we will know more.

This gives us more time to make those calls and faxes!! Please keep the momentum going!

I am told by folks in DC that they have been getting tons of calls and letters! Way to go guys! Keep up the great work! We are going to do this for the horses! Failure is NOT an option!

Gail

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by riverpup:
Are there breeders who produce horses with the intent of fattening them in order to sell them as meat horses?

If there is profit in it, would people do this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is, as a matter of fact, a company here in Washington State that does that. Big, beautiful drafts. They are well cared for, trained to handle well on the ground and are flown over to Japan by Fed Ex. The Japanese prefer the fresh meat, so they have them flown over live.
I checked right away to see if this company, which is quite large, made any campaign contributions to our one hold-out Senator, but I didn't find anything.

[MysticalDreamer]

I feel that it is sad that any horse should go to slaughter, however I know that there are some horses that are better off there, so I support Country and all of the other pro-slaughter people on here. I am so glad to see that not everyone is alike on this board. A different board that I chat on is full of anti-slaughter people who I get into great heated arguments with. I ask you, can I use some of your arguments here on that board? Because I feel the same way.

I have seen a horse that was better off dog food. Heck, she almost killed me. Then she sent her owner to the hospital. That Mare had a screw loose.

Besides, can someone tell me. This bill will stop horses being slaughtered for exportation of horse meat, it will not stop slaughter entirely. If I'm not mistaken.

[county]

Safehorses, I can't tell you how many times I've been to auctions and seen older thin horses that " rescue ' people bid against each other for. Then tell everyone they saved the horse from kill buyers. Truth is the kill buyers never bid on the horse once.

gazenna, like I've said before if you ever get bright enough to have a discussion without your personal attacks let me know. Until then your not worth talking to.

[SweatySaddlepad]

Gail I was wondering how the Senate was going to get anything done with the hearings going on (amazing how someone can talk non-stop and say nothing) (Brown) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

County skinny horses certainly are bought by middleman, taken to feedlots and fattened up, then sold to slaughter, happens all the time.

Mysticaldreamer, that mare your talking about sounds like a good candidate to be euthanized not sent to slaughter. The sad fact is many of these so called mean and unmanagable horses are the fault of people. Be it abuse, neglect or poor breeding, very few horses are born rogue and then it can usually be traced back to poor breeding. I have been around horses almost my whole life, I can count 2 horses that would fit that description, one was woefully neglected, the other I don't know. Also most horses that end up in the slaughterhouses are NOT mean and unmanagable, quite the opposite. It seems we become very good at creating problems and then finding the easiest out, better yet one that can make us money too.

[luvmytbs]

Sweaty,

thanks for putting my thoughts into words and posting here!

Today's local paper featured a "rescue from slaughter success story", Rescue Story (http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050914/NEWS0102/509140325/1027),
I hope some of our local government officials read their papers with their morning coffees.

I appreciate the media for finally doing stories like this to make more folks aware of what goes on in our backyards (namely Shepherdsville). This is horse country after all, and we pride ourselves in our horse industry!

[county]

Skinny young horses are, meat buyers have no use for skinny old horses, takes way to long to fatten them.

[gazenna]

Country, Have you ever been told you are rude? Whats important to me is trying to make a difference for horses, not you. I will not comment on anything else you say, instead I will use you to give me that much more incentive to do what I try to do.

[Andrew]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Welp - Guess what, slaughter is illegal here in MO </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG!!! But Puppy Mills aren't?????... what ***^% laws in MO http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[county]

gazenna whats at the top of my priority list is making a diiferance for livestock also. And your at least on this board the biggest example of why I do what I do.

And look back at all your posts from you to me on this thread and others on this board and tell me there not rude. And be honest

[nettiemaria]

Hmmmm? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Not sure where that came from, but

Wished they were illegal. Not that anyone follows the horse slaughter laws here in MO anyway. The killer sellers just take them over to Illinois and sell them for meat there, right over the line about 30 miles from where I live.

Ever been in puppy mill country in MO? Quite interesting. (banjo - please) (ammonia please). The puppy mill people are not really people, yet I think they are aliens, or felons, meth heads.

[onthebit12000]

Yet another change on the schedule!

Please, make more calls now! The full bill is up next and the amendment at any time. We need everyone to flood the Hill!!!!!!!!!!!

You can watch live on C-Span 2

Gail

[nettiemaria]

Let us know -

[gazenna]

Geez Country, I have no trouble admitting if I have souned rude, and maybe at times I have, but the words I use come from deep inside of me. How can you say that you really care about the wefare of horses that end up at the slaughter house when there is so much deception used in this business?
Maybe there is a little piece of you that really wants to help the slaughter bound horses, but how can you sincerely help them and be as pro slaughter as you are, it makes zero sense to me. I have read before that you have horses at home that you do consider your pets, and you have said those horses will live out their lives with you. Could you please tell me why those horses are special to you? Are those horses special to you personally or to you family?

[county]

Same reason/s some of the cattle, hogs, and sheep I've had are or have been pets and most the rest have been livestock. Same reason/s that some of the people I've met in my life have become very good freinds while others are just people I meet. None of any species are exactly the same.

[onthebit12000]

It looks as though the Commerce Appropriations bill is going to take up the rest of the day.

The Ag Appropriations bill (and our amendment) are next on the docket following Commerce.

My guess is our bill wont be up til early tomorrow.

Please keep those faxes and calls going out!
Im told that they are really getting a lot of calls, nevertheless, we need to keep this groundswell going a little bit longer!

Thanks to everyone for working so hard on behalf of the horses!

Gail

[MysticalDreamer]

True, that mare could have been euthanized, but I had no control over that. The owner did. I would rather see her go to slaughter than be left in a pasture and starved or negleted. That particular instance was bad breeding.

Again, I must support Country.

[blondy]

any vote yet?

[blondy]

I just called both of my senators again. Sen. Spectors office brushed me off, but Sen. Santorum's office took my name and address, and said that I would receive an answer on his position via the mail. Hope I wasn't too late for the vote.

[blondy]

Is there a website with the information on who voted for and against the slaughter act in the house. I would like to know who I am voting for next term.
Thanks!!

[SweatySaddlepad]

No vote yet, there is some talk right now that it will be postponed til next week. Anyone have verification?

[nettiemaria]

I received notification that they would not vote until next week.

[SafeHorses]

They are voting on the Commerce bill right now...Agriculture bill is next up, but I believe Frist just said on the floor that votes will not happen until Monday. I am watching to see if the amendment is at least introduced today.

[Brigit]

I hope the bill doesn't pass.

Here are some tidbits of info that everyone might find interesting, some of which are actual facts and others are JMO:
- The average age of horses slaughtered are 1-2 years old, about the same age as cows.
- Horses go from an auction to a feedlot where they spend weeks/months wallowing in piles of grain, they get free range on the eating, I'm sure it's a terrible experience for them. LOL
- If slaughter is banned then horses bound for slaughter will be forced to travel for longer periods of time to get to their destination.
- No we don't have a problem with an excess amount of horses currently, but if there's no horse slaughter industry then we probably will be.
- I'm sure cows, pigs, chickens etc are just as "terrified" as horses are when they "meat" their maker (sorry about the pun LOL) So what's the difference between horses and these other animals? Many view them as pets, and many of them are pets to us.
- No I wouldn't ever send one of my horses for slaughter but what right do I have to tell other people what to do with their animals.
- If people can't send their unwanted horses to slaughter, what will they do with them instead? Find another way to dispose of them that might not be as "humane".
- Horses are classified as livestock.
- How will these "laws" be enforced?
- Horses and all animals should be treated humanely throughout the process of transport and slaughter. They should ride in trailers tall enough for them, and they should get breaks for rest, food and water.

Anyhow that's just how I see the whole issue of horse slaughter, no need to flame me, I was just stating my view from the other side of the fence.

[fernie fox]

Brigit,I would rather you kept your JMOs to yourself,many horselovers have worked long and very hard to stop the disgusting horseslaughter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[county]

Whats the matter fernie fox not secure enough to allow more then your own opinion to be expressed on a public forum?

[blondy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fernie fox:
Brigit,I would rather you kept your JMOs to yourself,many horselovers have worked long and very hard to stop the disgusting horseslaughter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DITTO!!!

[SafeHorses]

Brigit: you are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with just about every point you've made. Some of them just aren't true either.

1. What's your point about the age of the horse?
2. Check out the Columbia Basin Equine Rescue website to find out how false your claim that "feedlots are fun" is.
3. If the AHPSA is passed, it will also be agains the law to transport horses across the border for slaughter...shooting down your "they have to travel for long distances" theory. Actually, they already ARE traveling long distances inside our borders.
4. Numbers of horses slaughtered per year has been going down for over a decade now, and the number of horses bred have been going up. There isn't a population problem that slaughter is a "solution" for...slaughter exists because of greed, not over population.
5. A horse is considered a pet by thousands of Americans. They are as horrified by horse slaughter as dog and cat lovers would be if they started slaughtering them. Tasteless pun BTW...plus, I have re-thought my meat eating habits since getting involved in this campaign as I think the inhumane slaughter of any animal is unacceptable.
6. We take the right to tell people how to treat their animals whenever we prosecute owners of animal cruelty and neglect. Why should the fact that sending the animals to a cruel death by slaughter make them exempt from that same philosophy?
7. You obviously think slaughter is humane. I disagree vehemetly.
8. Yes, horses are livestock...but not foodstock in this country.
9. These laws will be enforced the same way most laws are enforced. No law stops a crime 100%, but if it slows the crime down to a small fraction of what is once was, that law is considered a success.
10. The slaughter industry has had every opportunity to clean up their act, but they put profit ahead of decency. They aren't doing what you want them to do...and no one within the industry is doing anything about it. I won't miss them a bit.

I'm not flaming you, just countering what you've written above. I am not even concerned with changing your mind.

[onthebit12000]

man o' man...the horse slaughter issue sure does bring out the trolls, lol!

Clearly Brigit is yet another troll who has not a clue about the trade of horses for their meat! Please dont waste your time replying to this nonsense.

As for the vote...yes, it will not be until early next week. They are not in session tomorrow as many of the senators will be touring the damage in the gulf coast.

Please keep the calls and faxes going! We are making a huge impact on the Hill! Way to go folks!

Blondy,

Here is the link to how they voted on the Sweeney/Spratt amendment
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll233.xml


Gail

[county]

Safehorses you state slaughter exists for greed. Do you feel the same way about all the other foods produced in our country?

And what makes you think horses won't be transported into Can. and Mex. they are now. How much money is going to be allocated to prevent them from continuing? They made it so were supposed to not cross state lines without a coggins teast. Yet I personally know 100's of people that do it all the time and I've never known anyone whos been checked. Why? Because theres virtually no funds for enforcement its just a law to have a law no meaning behind it. If there going to make a law to stop slaughter whats the point if its the same type thing?

[county]

onthe bit so anyone who states their opinion on a public forum is a troll? That makes you one also

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Whats the matter fernie fox not secure enough to allow more then your own opinion to be expressed on a public forum? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty sure fernie fox was just a little put off by the delivery, as was I.
This is no time for puns and one liners. We've waited too long and worked too hard.

[county]

Puns and one liners? I do agree though that we've worked hard and waited too long. Although I'm thinking not for the same thing.

[SafeHorses]

County, I don't want to re-hash this with you over and over. I'll keep it brief:

No, I don't believe that ALL food producing industries exist for greed. I also think it's laughable to think that the slaughter option exists to control the horse population in this country.

And we've gone over the whole border thing countless times...once slaughter is illegal, horses crossing the border will be scrutinzed much more closely. There's not much scrutiny now because...guess what...it's not illegal yet. No one thinks any law is going to stop any illegal activity 100%...yet all the pro slaughter people are hanging onto this point like it's such a revelation that it'll change everyone's mind. It doesn't, not one bit.

[county]

I agree slaughter doesn't exist to control population. Slaughter exists for the same reasons any business does. Profit and demand take away either one and the business dies.

But I'm just curious why you feel that equine slaughter exists because of greed and not other business that supply food products. I think your dealing emotionaly not realisticly.

Anmd as I asked before how much money is being alocated to patrol the 1000's of miles of border with Mex. and Can.? They allocate millions now to stop drugs and illegal aliens I'm just thinking theres not going to be any to stop horse transports. Hence this bill forces horses into ebven worse conditions then there is now.

[SafeHorses]

County...greed was shorthand for profit, commerce, money making. I don't see the difference...it there is one for you, great. You thought wrong.

Your border argument is not holding water for me...sorry, not buying it. As you wrote, they allocate millions of dollars to patrol the borders. And neither is your "it's bad for the horses to stop slaughtering them" argument...not buying that one either.

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Anmd as I asked before how much money is being alocated to patrol the 1000's of miles of border with Mex. and Can.? They allocate millions now to stop drugs and illegal aliens I'm just thinking theres not going to be any to stop horse transports. Hence this bill forces horses into ebven worse conditions then there is now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why aren't there going to be any? Why can't the money being used to fund Displaced Worker programs go towards training border guards? Why can't we encourage our young people to train for the Border Patrol like we do the National Guard or the Coast Guard? Why can't we contribute towards scholarships for Law Enforcement programs?
I have two college age boys, big boys at that, that are looking at careers with the Border Patrol. There's no shortage of people looking for work and there's no shortage of funds to help with training.

[gazenna]

Country, Now Now Go back just a few days, and if I remember correctly you called me a troll. I always thought a troll was someone who was out to just cause trouble with no real purpose in mind other then to cause arguments. Anwyay with that being said I know someone just like you and this person has no involvment with horses at all. This person I speak of is my brother, he is the kind of guy that no matter how wrong he is one is better off just sticking the pacifier in his mouth and let him think he is right. I say this cause I tend to read more hostility in the posts from the pro slaughter people then the anti slaughter people.
Another thing is You and other pro slaughter people seem to think the horse slaughter process is humane and if you dont feel it is how can you defend it? Why is that no one who works in a horse slaughter house tries to defend their jobs there? I wonder if anyone who works in a horse slaughter has ever had a horse if any age tug on their heart strings to the point that the horse was pulled off the line? I wonder if anyone has cared enough for a mare that they knew was very close to foaling to pull off the line and sell her to a good home. Since no one comes forward to defend their job my guess is that there is not one person working in any of the 3 horse slaughter houses that have even one ounce of compassion for the horses. And as far if the slaughter are closed eventually these people will just have to find new jobs like so many other people that have their jobs taken away. I hope the horses have another victory and if it dont go that way it will just take more work to succeed next time..

[riverpup]

Lildunhorse,

Thank you for answering my question yesterday.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[county]

Safehorses I had no idea I was using a " bad for the horses to stop slaughering them ' argument maybe you can point it out for me. And yes they allocate millions of dollars for border patrol. But its for drug and ilegal alien enforcement not horses. They can't just decide on their own to stop using it for those things and use it to enforce not letting slaughter horses across 9 would you actualy want them to? I mean which of those things do you think the american public feels is more important? ) The propsed bill has no funds allocated to it. Without that theses no enforcement.

gazenna if sticking a pacifier in your mouth makes you feel your right be my guest.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Hence this bill forces horses into ebven worse conditions then there is now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you go.

The money alloted for border control is for a myriad of things they don't want getting into or out of the country.

[county]

So your saying that the U.S. Border Patrol has said there going to use funds to make sure horses don't go across to slaughter. Even though there underfunded now to fight the drug and alien problem? Can you show me where they have said that? Do you beleive that the public in general will be happy to hear that? Of the problem of drugs, illegal aliens, or horses being transported across the borders which two would you say should have the money spent on the most?

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So your saying that the U.S. Border Patrol has said there going to use funds to make sure horses don't go across to slaughter. Even though there underfunded now to fight the drug and alien problem? Can you show me where they have said that? Do you beleive that the public in general will be happy to hear that? Of the problem of drugs, illegal aliens, or horses being transported across the borders which two would you say should have the money spent on the most? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

County, the Border Patrol is a law enforcement agency. They do not pick and chose which laws to enforce any more than our State Patrolmen or City Police. They are there to do their job and their job is to patrol the borders for anything that shouldn't be going in or out. This includes livestock, undeclared goods, drugs, aliens, whatever.
Ask the public in general whether or not they want their Border Patrol to enforce the law..all of it. They will tell you "Yes, I do."

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by riverpup:
Lildunhorse,

Thank you for answering my question yesterday.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're welcome, riverpup, but I'm sorry I had to answer in the affirmative.
It's a sad thing, for sure.

[county]

So your saying that theres x number of officers to patrol 1000's of miles of border and adding the task of catching horse transports will not affect the time they have for drugs and illegals? Explain how please, theres only x number of hours in a day. Every hour spent looking for horse transports and the time spent dealing with those caught is time not spent on drugs and aliens. They can't be in two places at once.

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So your saying that theres x number of officers to patrol 1000's of miles of border and adding the task of catching horse transports will not affect the time they have for drugs and illegals? Explain how please, theres only x number of hours in a day. Every hour spent looking for horse transports and the time spent dealing with those caught is time not spent on drugs and aliens. They can't be in two places at once. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do your X number of City Police ignore the shoplifters because drunk driving is a more serious offense?

[county]

No not at all but I consdider both those offenses serious to public safety and drug prevention. Don't see stopping horses from slaughter even close to the same level as drug and alien prevention. I'll be honest I don't think its even in the same world. I do beleive most people dislike equine slaughter for if nothing else the emotional part. But ask those same people what they want there tax dollar spent on by the Border Patrol and how much there willing to have their taxes raised to fund slaughter prevention and I'll bet most the same ones change their tune. s

[gazenna]

Country.... Nah, I am long past that stage, Thanks for the offer though, see I can be nice. Anyways I am done with you. My energy is better spent trying to help the horses instead of dealing with people like you.

[county]

Sounds fair to me although I've heard that before. If ya ever mature to the point you can have a discussion with someone whos opinions are differant then your own let me know. I think if people would work together the horses would sure like it, agendas are not doing them any favors.

[gazenna]

That goes both ways.

[county]

Oh theres no doubt.

[Lildunhorse]

I can guarantee that all of them would be willing to have their taxes raised if it would help the Border Patrol do their jobs. All of it, and not just the parts we agree with.

Personally, I think if drugs were legalized, there would be a lot less crime, people wouldn't be afraid to seek treatment, drug addiction would be out in the open where we could deal with it as a community, and we might live to see drug use eradicated in our time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
No not at all but I consdider both those offenses serious to public safety and drug prevention. Don't see stopping horses from slaughter even close to the same level as drug and alien prevention. I'll be honest I don't think its even in the same world. I do beleive most people dislike equine slaughter for if nothing else the emotional part. But ask those same people what they want there tax dollar spent on by the Border Patrol and how much there willing to have their taxes raised to fund slaughter prevention and I'll bet most the same ones change their tune. s </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So your saying that theres x number of officers to patrol 1000's of miles of border and adding the task of catching horse transports will not affect the time they have for drugs and illegals? Explain how please, theres only x number of hours in a day. Every hour spent looking for horse transports and the time spent dealing with those caught is time not spent on drugs and aliens. They can't be in two places at once. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looking for horse transports? I would say horse transports accross the borders are going to be a little bit easier to spot then drugs that someone has hidden in the spare tire of their vehicle. Or an illegal alien crawling through fields.
Unless of course the "horsetraders" start riding their "products" through the brush one by one in the middle of the night. Very profitable indeed!

[county]

I don't hardly think there going to be crossing the borders on any main roads just as the drug and alien dealers don't. Do you have any idea how many miles of border and number of places to cross there are?

[Brigit]

Well I do know what a troll is, and I don't think I am one considering I just discovered this board yesterday. And I believe the argument started far before I got here. But if name calling makes you feel better have at it.

Of course slaughter doesn't exist for population control, it's called supply and demand, extinguish one of those factors and horse slaughter will be no more.

I do think I know something about the slaughter industry. Lets see I regularly go to auctions, where meat buyers are present. I personally know someone who has a feedlot for horses and another person that breeds draft crosses for rodeo and slaughter.

I don't see how horse slaughter is any more inhumane than than slaughtering anything else.

I'm sure law enforcers will take shipments of horses far more seriously than drug problems, murderers and gang issues. Although you do have a point about the borders, I'll definatly agree with you there, one law is enforced just as others are. Wouldn't it still be possible to ship horses across the border to an auction? And from that auction couldn't meat buyers buy them?

Again I'll state that I don't like horse slaughter but I see a purpose for it. And my posts are not meant to anger anyone or fuel the fire, I just thought the other side of the fence needed some representation. I'm simply being honest (something our world greatly lacks these days, everything is so sugar coated as to not offend anyone), and I'm sorry that some of you find honesty offensive.

To say something about the workers of this industry, they probably don't respond or defend their jobs to the "anti-slaughter" clan because they feel that it is pointless, probably don't have the time or the need to.

[nettiemaria]

Brigett, I am so glad you are a member of the

Proud member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals!

You must be so proud of that affiliation, because you put it out there like a medal. By the way, we're animals, mammals to be exact.

sick, sick, sick world we live in. Makes me glad and feel alot safer I don't have any real close neighbors!

[Brigit]

nettiemaria: and your point is?

[nettiemaria]

Well, if you don't see the point, then I wouldn't know how to fully explain it to you.

[Brigit]

nettiemarie: I wasn't being scarcastic, I was just wondering what you meant by that, your response didn't make much sense to me.
My PETA "medal" (which is not meant to be taken serisously) as you put it is part of my signature and has nothing to do with this topic, so I wonder why you bring it up?

[nettiemaria]

It has EVERYTHING to do with this topic!

Horses aren't slaughtered for their hide.
Although I have seen a picture of a pony hide draped on a person's couch!

They are slaughtered because people in other countries want to EAT them. I find your signature shocking, especially on this topic.

But, they are not raised for food here, they are raised for work, hobby, show - for our USE. Not to eat, here in America. To me, it is sick to take a pet or something that is like a pet, which most are (they have to be to handle them). We have worked so tirelessly to learn ways to handle the horse, and have found that the way is trust - otherwise, they would not be able to be caught, or ridden, that's for sure. There are books upon books, etc.

Do you honestly think that a horse would let a human get on its back and ride the horse if the horse didn't have some element of trust in it towards humans? That is a prey movement. When a tiger jumps on a horse, or a deer's back, it is to bite them in the neck to kill them. A horse would be scared out of its mind if it did not have some element of trust and believe me, the person would NOT be staying on that horse.

Then we betray their trust in humans, with a captive bolt to the head and a guy standing over it as the last thing it sees, SICK. sick, sick, sick.

It just seems to me that been as how WE USE the horse for work, pleasure and show, that we could at LEAST show it some dignity in its final hours after we have used the horse "up" and are done with it.

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
nettiemarie: I wasn't being scarcastic, I was just wondering what you meant by that, your response didn't make much sense to me.
My PETA "medal" (which is not meant to be taken serisously) as you put it is part of my signature and has nothing to do with this topic, so I wonder why you bring it up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brigit, please...this is a discussion about animal rights, a very serious topic. You can't expect to make light of it with a signature like that and not expect someone to be offended. You don't have to "sugar coat" things, as you say, but a little bit of common sense goes a long way.

[Brigit]

If my signature offends I'll take it off...on this topic. I think some people take things a bit too seriously however.

Anyhow back on topic. I've seen people train and ride cows, moose and buffalo, they are prey animals as well. Yet can be trained to ride.

What about 4-H animals, they are bred for showing, handled from birth, trained, loved, shown and then sold at a year end auction for meat. They trust their people too and the last thing they see in this world is a person. I don't see how it's any different that horses.

Does it bother you more that these horses are dying and made into a useful commodity or is it the way in which they are slaughtered that bothers you more?

[nettiemaria]

I am personally not going to answer that question here on the board. I don't think that the people who are riding around the buffalo should be killing it after they make it a pet. I don't think if something is made to be a pet, with handling all the time, that it should be slaughtered. That's just my own personal opinion and set of morals.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I am personally not going to answer that question here on the board. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why not? Isn't this what the issue is about?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
with handling all the time, that it should be slaughtered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now it's ok to slaughter wild ones or unbroke ones? Just not ones that were loved at one point in their life right?

[nettiemaria]

No, it's not okay. It is not okay to SLAUGHTER horses, as far as I am concerned. It's also not okay the way they slaughter cows, pigs, sheep, etc., etc. We are supposed to be an "advanced" nation. It is not okay to feed cows WOOD. It is not okay to put calves in crates and force feed them, etc. It is not okay to let chickens live in tiny little cages where they can't move. But, if I fought for all of these issues, I wouldn't get any sleep.

I pin-point this on HORSE slaughter because it's what I (think I) was called to do. They are not a "food product", and I don't think I need to spell that out. Because we do not eat horses here in America, I don't think that American horses should be subject to slaughter, rather subject to what they are SUPPOSED to be doing, what they were bred, raised, and trained for in the first place, which has NOTHING to do with food. If they get hurt in the process of doing what they are SUPPOSED to be doing, then I believe it is the owner's responsibility to take care of the animal, or put it down humanely, or try to find it a home, rather than sell it out, because that is the responsibility they took on when they got the horse. It's an easy-out, which is fired by GREED, greed for money, an attempt to "get back some money" a sell-out!

If somone can't afford the horse in the first place, then don't get one. Golly, how many times have I said this.

[Lildunhorse]

That argument has been used a lot. Frankly, I think it was designed to insult our intelligence.
Unless of course anyone is willing to point out an important battle that was won on the back of an ox, or a bovine Olympic event that I seem to have missed; or maybe someone else saved their babysitting money as a youngster for their first saddlebuffalo.
You know, eagles belong to the same general category as chickens and turkeys, and yet we are no longer allowed, nor do we have the overwhelming desire to hunt and eat them. Why is that?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:

Anyhow back on topic. I've seen people train and ride cows, moose and buffalo, they are prey animals as well. Yet can be trained to ride.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
It is not okay to put calves in crates and force feed them, etc. It is not okay to let chickens live in tiny little cages where they can't move. But, if I fought for all of these issues, I wouldn't get any sleep.

Then I believe it is the owner's responsibility to take care of the animalhumanely... because that is the responsibility they took on when they got the horse.

If somone can't afford the horse in the first place, then don't get one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
On this I completely agree with you. There is no need for cruelty to animals in todays world. And when someone gets any animal for a pet they should realize that they are responsible for it for the rest of it's life. So many lack responsibility however. The people that irritate me are the ones that can't make do with the horse/animal they have so they breed or buy another one and send their old one off to the small auction place down the road, instead of taking the time to find it a home. People need to stop being so wasteful.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
That argument has been used a lot. Frankly, I think it was designed to insult our intelligence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope sorry, I'm not trying to take pot shots at anyone. I was just merely making a point that anything can be trained to ride, or be someone's "pet" etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You know, eagles belong to the same general category as chickens and turkeys, and yet we are no longer allowed, nor do we have the overwhelming desire to hunt and eat them. Why is that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps because they are endangered? Maybe because there is very few of them left and they face complete extinction? And probably because there is not an unwanted/excess population of them. If horse slaughter continues I'm positive that horses won't become endangered.

[gazenna]

Brigit..You and Country should be together, you think alike. And yes I also find your sig, offensive. It is one thing to have your own belief, but it is just mean of you to make a joke out of this issue.
If it was you that said you know someone that breeds horses for rodeo and slaughter. If they have a horse that wont make it in the rodeo are they sent to slaughter, is this how they work? If it is, just say for instance if a horse wont buck is that horse then sold for slaughter? If that is the case that hardly seem fare to the horse. Those horses deserve a good home with owners that will love and appreciate them. Slaughter does nothing but torture horses and fill the pockets of people who dont give a damn about anything but money. You do seem like you are not looking at the full picture here, How can you or anyone else that is for horse slaughter be so narrow minded that you cannot see the deception in it. I just dont get it.........

[Lildunhorse]

Eagles are our National Emblem. They are not allowed to be hunted or eaten because they are a symbol of our national pride.
Horses by their very nature, are also a symbol of pride and freedom to the American People. (Most of them anyway. Some people just don't give a rip.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
Perhaps because they are endangered? Maybe because there is very few of them left and they face complete extinction? And probably because there is not an unwanted/excess population of them. If horse slaughter continues I'm positive that horses won't become endangered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[nettiemaria]

One of these days, we need to figure out why people send horses to slaughter. Really, why.

The only reason I can think of is money. But then, why does that measly amount of money make it okay to send that horse off to be slaughtered (then it also includes sending it to the auction and selling it for killer price). Does anyone here have any theory - is it a cultural thing, something that has been passed on to them, perhaps it is because they are uneducated on the slaughter process????? Why? It just seems to me to "recoup" $400, just wouldn't be worth it, if they took into account the suffering??? Are these people poor? What is it?

[onthebit12000]

People in this country for the most part do not sendtheir horses to slaughter.They send them to be sold at auction.

The number of people who actually deliver their horses to slaughter plants is less than 1% of those slaughtered.

Horses go to slaughter because there are horse dealers who make money by buying inexpensive horses and selling them at a profit, to the slaughter plants.

[county]

Why do people send horses to slaughter? Thats easy for money, the same reason all livestock is sent to slaughter. The same reason all other types of business exist. Money, if theres no money rtheres no business how hard can it be to figure out?

Why do any of you have a job? Biggest reason I'm guessing is money why is it so shocking to think livestock producers have their job for the same reason?

[nettiemaria]

A thought just came to mind (maybe I'm on to something), that in my area alot of the horses that go through the auction are by people who are there all the time. Horse Dealers and people wanting to make money off of cheap auction horses (they bring them home, and if they "dont' work out" they bring them back, otherwise they would try to resell them for more money).

Does anyone think that mainly the "dealers" are responsible rather than the "individual owners"? I know I'm being vague here, I'm just trying to identify one of the problems and brain storm, the mindset of the person bringing the horse to auction in the first place.

[Lildunhorse]

nettiemaria, my own personal opinion, (which needs to be taken with a grain of salt, I guess) is that horses are taken to auction for the most part by people who have no connection to their horses other than being a property owner. Perhaps to them, horses are more a monetary investment than a living, breathing creature. That's why we get the argument that we're being too emotional.
Is loyalty an emotion, or an attribute?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
I know I'm being vague here, I'm just trying to identify one of the problems and brain storm, the mindset of the person bringing the horse to auction in the first place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

So you don't think people should sell their livestock? Exactly how do you propse to stop them from doing that? I'm curious but of all the ones on here who dobn't think livestock should be slaughtered, kept in confined areas, etc. how many of you eat meat, eggs, drink milk, use leather, or any other by product from livestock?

[nettiemaria]

I guess that's a stupid question. Sorry. How could I possibly understand that mindset? I think I would need a Ph.D. first before I could even BEGIN to understand.

[county]

Or just plain common sense.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazenna:
Brigit..You and Country should be together, you think alike. And yes I also find your sig, offensive. It is one thing to have your own belief, but it is just mean of you to make a joke out of this issue </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes we do think alike. And no I wasn't making a joke out of this topic, I said my sig was a joke. If I wanted to make a joke out of this I sure could have.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If it was you that said you know someone that breeds horses for rodeo and slaughter. If they have a horse that wont make it in the rodeo are they sent to slaughter, is this how they work? If it is, just say for instance if a horse wont buck is that horse then sold for slaughter? If that is the case that hardly seem fare to the horse. Those horses deserve a good home with owners that will love and appreciate them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes it was me. I had a really good laugh when you said these horses should have a loving home, a lot of these guys are meant to be mean, and buck like crazy, and most are completely wild. I think the only love you'd get in return from them is a good swift kick in the head http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Besides they don't know any different, that's what they're bred for, the same as cows. That's their end purpose.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How can you or anyone else that is for horse slaughter be so narrow minded that you cannot see the deception in it. I just dont get it......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well that makes two of us! We're a lovely narrow minded pair! LOL

[county]

The description of narrow minded that was used fits a great deal of people on here. As was said they just don't get it.

[Lildunhorse]

I was talking about selling horses at the auction. Horses, which are not food animals in our country and yet are sold to buyers specifically to be used as food in other countries..
You can continue to clutter the issue with every other breed of animal, vegetable or mineral, but I will not be distracted by it. That is a topic for another day, since I've been totally meatless for over two months. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif
If anybody wants to try the argument about saddlecows again, do your worst. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So you don't think people should sell their livestock? Exactly how do you propse to stop them from doing that? I'm curious but of all the ones on here who dobn't think livestock should be slaughtered, kept in confined areas, etc. how many of you eat meat, eggs, drink milk, use leather, or any other by product from livestock? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lildunhorse]

Albert Schweitzer would be so proud. This is human compassion at it's best.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brigit:
Yes it was me. I had a really good laugh when you said these horses should have a loving home, a lot of these guys are meant to be mean, and buck like crazy, and most are completely wild. I think the only love you'd get in return from them is a good swift kick in the head http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Besides they don't know any different, that's what they're bred for, the same as cows. That's their end purpose.

[county]

I'm not the one who brought up other species of animals a anti slaughter person did which is why I asked. As far as selling horses at auctions I don't see the problem nor do I see a problem with selling products to other countries. Its a very big part of our economy with out it we'd be in a real hurt.

[Lildunhorse]

Well, I think I should see about getting that hemp crop going, then. Big market for it in Mexico and Canada. I hear the poppies grow pretty well here, too.
(For the benefit of any DEA agents who may be lurking, that was &lt;sarcasm&gthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I'm not the one who brought up other species of animals a anti slaughter person did which is why I asked. As far as selling horses at auctions I don't see the problem nor do I see a problem with selling products to other countries. Its a very big part of our economy with out it we'd be in a real hurt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[nettiemaria]

Ahhh, I see the gloves are off - well

Brigett - I had bought a colt once from an unscrupulous dealer - I went to try to train him, and oops! Then sent him to a trainer - she suggested that I sell him to a bronc outfit that she knew. That horse wasn't mean, he didn't try to kick me in the head or anything like that, he just BUCKED REALLY HIGH. Other than that, he was fine. A trainer finally got the horse trained, but he was not for the meek rider, but he was nice other than that.

County, I seem to be lacking the "common sense" it takes to realize how people can be without any kind of moral (Thank God!) and send old Rusty to be abused so badly before finally meeting his demise for a measly $350 to $400.

They WILL NOT follow the rules, and NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO MAKE THEM TO THAT. (The Slaughter Houses and the USDA).

So, because of that, I have no choice but to fight to END slaughter, because that's the only way, because of foregoing reasons. Not that I condone any horse being slaughtered even if it WERE more humane, but as it stands, it certainly is extremely barbaric and that is the reason that I have to do this.

[Brigit]

Lildunhorse: It has nothing to do with whether I have compassion or not, those are the first hand facts, whether you believe them or not. Maybe I don't think they are horrible and uncompassionet because I've lived a very unsheltered life and been around this type of real world thing from different side of the fence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:

I had bought a colt once from an unscrupulous dealer - I went to try to train him, and oops! Then sent him to a trainer - she suggested that I sell him to a bronc outfit that she knew. That horse wasn't mean, he didn't try to kick me in the head or anything like that, he just BUCKED REALLY HIGH. Other than that, he was fine. A trainer finally got the horse trained, but he was not for the meek rider, but he was nice other than that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's still a difference, your horse wasn't bred to be a bucker/meat horse. Although I don't deny that your horse very well might have ended up there if not for your goodness.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> and send old Rusty to be abused so badly before finally meeting his demise for a measly $350 to $400.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm I didn't know slaughter houses and feedlots provided abuse services too? How exactly are they abused. They are fed, watered and given shelter from the wind until it is their time. I'm sure those who are actually in the kill box do have compassion, they don't want to see anything suffer for any longer than it has to. The process is no different from any other type of slaughter.
I think today old rusty would probably bring closer somewhere from $600 to $800, depending on how fat he is.

To me the whole issue of slaughtering horses isn't as horrible as some truly cruel things I've seen or heard of being done to animals. Why not try to do something for those that are forced to suffer, unlike the horses being slaughtered are put out of their "misery" quickly? Why not work to get stronger laws against animal cruelty. If you'd like to hear some of the animal abuse horror stories I know, just ask and I'll share.

[nettiemaria]

What?!!!!!!! Don't abuse them?!!!!!!!

[Brigit]

Que'est que ce? Je ne sais pas?

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
Hmm I didn't know slaughter houses and feedlots provided abuse services too? How exactly are they abused. They are fed, watered and given shelter from the wind until it is their time. I'm sure those who are actually in the kill box do have compassion, they don't want to see anything suffer for any longer than it has to. The process is no different from any other type of slaughter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lildunhorse and I are involved in a rescue that deals with getting horses off a feedlot in WA. The change in those horses once they are off the lot is amazing both in their physical appearance and their mental state. Most of those horses are scared to be in a strange lot surrounded by strange horses...some who are violent and shouldn't be turned loose in a general horse population.

What is your experience that proves that they are happy to be there?

Also, there are many reports one can find on the internet where animal rights people find examples of terrible cruelty done to animals by factory workers. Lildunhorse just posted an article on another site about terrible abuses at a cattle plant...it's pretty grisly stuff.

County, didn't you also write in another thread that you and some others at the slaughterhouse you used to work at had to sit down with managment and work out more humane practices at your plant?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> To me the whole issue of slaughtering horses isn't as horrible as some truly cruel things I've seen or heard of being done to animals. Why not try to do something for those that are forced to suffer, unlike the horses being slaughtered are put out of their "misery" quickly? Why not work to get stronger laws against animal cruelty. If you'd like to hear some of the animal abuse horror stories I know, just ask and I'll share. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes you think those of us who are anti slaugther aren't also working for tougher cruelty laws? Or writing the USDA to demand that they force all slaughter industries to follow the Humane Slaughter Act? Or write the Secretary of Agriculture to ask that chickens and turkeys be added to the list of animals that the Humane Slaughter Act protects?

I am not a one issue person, but your statement makes me think that you believe anti slaughter advocates are. Why?

[nettiemaria]

Sorry, no understand espanol.

[nettiemaria]

I know why he thinks that.

[Lildunhorse]

You might be surprised to learn that I am not that different from you. The two sides of a fence are sometimes only seperated by a little more than an inch. I am anything but sheltered, but I don't think I need to bore anyone with the gruesome details. Let's just suffice it to say that the things that I have been exposed to, such as factory farming, ranching, beef, rabbit and chicken processing and the "sport" of rodeo, have helped form the opinions that I am so willing to share as part of this discussion. And although what you are citing as fact, might indeed be fact, that doesn't mean that we have to be cold about it.
Anytime we alter an animal's behaviour to the point that they are unsafe, we should at least do the right thing and take responsibility for it. Not milk the last penny out of it and say, "That's all it was good for".
Please don't think that I am attacking you personally, because that's not my intention. I know nothing about you. I simply disagree with the casual, disrespectful nature in which human beings use up and destroy other living things.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
Lildunhorse: It has nothing to do with whether I have compassion or not, those are the first hand facts, whether you believe them or not. Maybe I don't think they are horrible and uncompassionet because I've lived a very unsheltered life and been around this type of real world thing from different side of the fence.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Lildunhorse I think your confusing legal exports with illegal ones there two totally differant things.

As far as what people choose to do or what they beleive I have no problem with it. I've never told anyone they should sell a horse to slaughter and never will. However a number of people do not seem to think they should respect anyone else opinion on the matter. Personally I don't see how a lawyer can go to court and defend child molesters but the fact is thats their job and how they make a living.

I have no desire to see any thing abused be it animal or person. I've bought horses over the years that were either starved or abused in differant ways. To rescue them? Some thing so myself I don't consider it rescue to me thats if one of my cows or horses were say stuck in a bog and I roped and pulled it out. I've bought these horses to give them some proper care and resell them at a profit. Like I said I'm a livestock producer if someone doesn't like that job they certainly shouldn't do it. But why the uproar about those that do just because your opinion is differant?

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SafeHorses:
What is your experience that proves that they are happy to be there?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm I didn't ever say they were happy to be there, I just stated that it's really not that horrible. Most horses are nervous whenever you bring them to a new place, whether they are pets or not.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What makes you think those of us who are anti slaugther aren't also working for tougher cruelty laws? Or writing the USDA to demand that they force all slaughter industries to follow the Humane Slaughter Act? Or write the Secretary of Agriculture to ask that chickens and turkeys be added to the list of animals that the Humane Slaughter Act protects?

I am not a one issue person, but your statement makes me think that you believe anti slaughter advocates are. Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said that either. I just stating my point of view that there are probably better things to be working on. And I am glad there are people like you out there saving horses worth saving and working to get stronger laws toward animal cruelty.
I guess my view is that horse slaughter is no different from slaughtering cows, or pigs, or sheep. That's all. I don't see it as cruel. I see horses standing around in a pasture starving cruel. I see soring as cruel. Why do I think they are cruel and slaughter is not? Because starving and hurting horses are forced to live with that discomfort for extended periods of time. The captive bolt seems like a quick and humane end compared to that.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
Sorry, no understand espanol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Sorry dear, but that's french!

[nettiemaria]

Who cares?

[county]

My guess would be the one who said they didn't understand it.

[nettiemaria]

bese mi asno

Maybe you all could translate that, almighty world travelers!

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bese mi asno </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very mature, but no I won't "Kiss your burro". LOL!

[Lildunhorse]

Come on down to the feedlot. Come and meet the horses that have been sent there because they're all used up and will cost too much to fix. I don't care whether they were bought at auction or dropped off at the front gate. It is ghastly unfair what these horses have had to endure. I don't need to hear any of your abuse stories. I've heard them and seen them already.
Never in my lifetime have I seen beef cattle living with such suffering as these feedlot horses. I have three of them. I know exactly what it took to undo the damage.

And furthermore, County, you will not find horsemeat in any grocery store in America. Just as you will not find hemp leaves. But you can get them both legally in other countries. So by your logic, if horse slaughter is good business, why isn't hemp farming?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SafeHorses:
What is your experience that proves that they are happy to be there?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm I didn't ever say they were happy to be there, I just stated that it's really not that horrible. Most horses are nervous whenever you bring them to a new place, whether they are pets or not.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What makes you think those of us who are anti slaugther aren't also working for tougher cruelty laws? Or writing the USDA to demand that they force all slaughter industries to follow the Humane Slaughter Act? Or write the Secretary of Agriculture to ask that chickens and turkeys be added to the list of animals that the Humane Slaughter Act protects?

I am not a one issue person, but your statement makes me think that you believe anti slaughter advocates are. Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said that either. I just stating my point of view that there are probably better things to be working on. And I am glad there are people like you out there saving horses worth saving and working to get stronger laws toward animal cruelty.
I guess my view is that horse slaughter is no different from slaughtering cows, or pigs, or sheep. That's all. I don't see it as cruel. I see horses standing around in a pasture starving cruel. I see soring as cruel. Why do I think they are cruel and slaughter is not? Because starving and hurting horses are forced to live with that discomfort for extended periods of time. The captive bolt seems like a quick and humane end compared to that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[nettiemaria]

Yeah, your PETA thing is very mature too, so classic - I might add.

[county]

If hemp fasrming was legal in this country it probably would be good business. But its not legal so whats your point? Horse farming and slaughter is legal in this country hence thats why some do it. I don't think your seperating real world from fantasy land here.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
- Horses go from an auction to a feedlot where they spend weeks/months wallowing in piles of grain, they get free range on the eating, I'm sure it's a terrible experience for them. LOL
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems to me you were insinuating that horses are happy to be on feedlots. If I have that wrong and you were joking, then I didn't pick that up from what you wrote here yesterday. I believe that being on a feedlot is not a situation that horses enjoy at all. But that's not really the whole point here...feedlots are just one part of the process.

And if you feel that it's better to work on other issues, more power to you! I think that's great! I was pointing out that when you suggest that we work on things you think more worthwhile, you are assuming that we aren't.

You and I just aren't going to agree on the cruelty of slaughter. As I wrote yesterday, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I am not interested in changing your mind. I just wanted to point out where I disagree with you and why.

[county]

BTW theres many abuse cases with cattle and other livestock beleive me. I've been called to help get livestock out of places like that way to many times. Abuse has nothing to do with a species of livestock.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
Come on down to the feedlot. Come and meet the horses that have been sent there because they're all used up and will cost too much to fix. I don't care whether they were bought at auction or dropped off at the front gate. It is ghastly unfair what these horses have had to endure. I don't need to hear any of your abuse stories. I've heard them and seen them already.
Never in my lifetime have I seen beef cattle living with such suffering as these feedlot horses. I have three of them. I know exactly what it took to undo the damage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been to the feedlots many a time. Sure there are lots of horses. But the ones I saw were relaxed, standing around eating from piles of oats getting fat. Poor ponys! I've also had two horses from the feedlot and both were really great horses, no problems what so ever, no "damage" to repair.
Maybe the horses you got were "damaged" before they got to the auction or the meat buyer?

[nettiemaria]

You know County, you really are become rude! I never thought you rude before, but now you're getting personal with everyone - that I can see.

BTW, that comment wasn't directed to Brigett previously.

[Lildunhorse]

My point is, just because it is good business, doesn't mean it should be legal. If it can't be sold in the United States, why is a foreign company allowed to profit off of it, when so many of us are opposed to it?
Hemp farming is an extremely profitable business in other countries, but is not legal in the U.S. because of the stigma attached to it. Think of how many poor farmers could benefit from it as a real industry! So how do we distinguish which industry we can allow and which one we can't? How is slaughtering an animal that we can't eat any different from growing a plant that we can't smoke?
I have no problem recoginizing the real world and all its hypocrisies thank you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
If hemp fasrming was legal in this country it probably would be good business. But its not legal so whats your point? Horse farming and slaughter is legal in this country hence thats why some do it. I don't think your seperating real world from fantasy land here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lildunhorse]

Yes, actually, that was exactly my point. They cost too much to fix, they cost too much to keep, so they were given up to the easy out. Sent to stand in the feedlot, illnesses, injuries and all.
Therein lies the cruelty. How does an injured, ancient or ill horse defend itself? Where does it find comfort or relief? Not at home, where the kindest thing would be a bullet between the eyes. Where's the profit in that?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
Maybe the horses you got were "damaged" before they got to the auction or the meat buyer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Actually we can eat horse meat all we want here, whats against the law is to sell it commercially. How do we decide which business is allowed and which isn't? Good question personally I don't understand why the U.S. Gov. promotes smoking tobbacco yet doesn't allow hemp really seems rather stupid to me. A large number of everyday citizens in the middle east countries don't want their gov. to sell us oil but they do. Pretty much the same thing here with horse meat

[county]

So whos at fault Lildunhorse? The feedlot owner whos feeding the horse or the person who had it and decided to sell an injured or sick animal? At least one of them is seeing to it there fed and watered. And I don't know of any feedlot operators of any species of livestock who allow life thretening injuries go unattended. Theres no profit in it and like it or not beleive it or not feedlot operators do not stay in business without profit.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Actually we can eat horse meat all we want here, whats against the law is to sell it commercially. How do we decide which business is allowed and which isn't? Good question personally I don't understand why the U.S. Gov. promotes smoking tobbacco yet doesn't allow hemp really seems rather stupid to me. A large number of everyday citizens in the middle east countries don't want their gov. to sell us oil but they do. Pretty much the same thing here with horse meat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know that I agree that selling oil and slaughtering horses are on the same level, but what I find interesting in your comparison is that you're probably right that the "Arab street" would rather not sell the US oil (I bet the Arab oil industry thinks that's a really bad idea), but they don't get a say in who buys their oil. Over here, we have a say in regards to slaughtering horses. If a majority wants it stopped, then it will eventually stop, no?

[Lildunhorse]

I guess you missed my point too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So whos at fault Lildunhorse? The feedlot owner whos feeding the horse or the person who had it and decided to sell an injured or sick animal? At least one of them is seeing to it there fed and watered. And I don't know of any feedlot operators of any species of livestock who allow life thretening injuries go unattended. Theres no profit in it and like it or not beleive it or not feedlot operators do not stay in business without profit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lildunhorse]

Which is why I said you won't find it in the grocery store, County.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Actually we can eat horse meat all we want here, whats against the law is to sell it commercially. How do we decide which business is allowed and which isn't? Good question personally I don't understand why the U.S. Gov. promotes smoking tobbacco yet doesn't allow hemp really seems rather stupid to me. A large number of everyday citizens in the middle east countries don't want their gov. to sell us oil but they do. Pretty much the same thing here with horse meat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

If the majority of us want something it will happen? I hardly think so the majority of us don't want to pay income tax but I'll bet the farm we still will.

[Lildunhorse]

Shoot! You mean all this time I've been voting for no reason at all? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
If the majority of us want something it will happen? I hardly think so the majority of us don't want to pay income tax but I'll bet the farm we still will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SafeHorses]

Silly comparison...just like if a majority of us would like to start shooting people at will, it would never become law either.

The fact that the question of horse slaughter is different than non payment of income tax is why there's a very good chance in the the next year or so that horse slaughter will become illegal.

[county]

Voting for no reason at all? Not sure what you mean I can't think of a good reason not to vote.

Silly comparison, to you but not to me.

[county]

BTW I also beleive before to much more time horse slaughter will be outlawed here. And as I've said before if it is so be it thats not going to affect my world any to a extend thats noticeable. But I really hope when it is that some thought beyond that one single thing is done and the prsent propsed bill doesn't come close to doing that. In the past people have fought to shut down slaughter houses and patted themselfs on the back for the great thing they did. But then horses were crammed into larger trucks, haulded 1000's of more miles, and stand in holding pens for days rather then hours. No thought was given to the end result of shutting down the slaughter plants only what was needed to make people feel good.

I'll be honest I'm not concerned about how the people feel I'm much more into the livestock. And this bill doesn't concern itself with the horses. It concerns itself with what do we do to make people feel good.

[Lildunhorse]

I thought that's why we voted. For change.
Why vote if the majority doesn't win?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Voting for no reason at all? Not sure what you mean I can't think of a good reason not to vote.

Silly comparison, to you but not to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[grayarabs]

Interesting that Brigit had to work in some French. France being a country that eats horses. Folks - there are a few pro slaughter folks here that just want to stir up trouble. Wasted time. Don't lower yourself to their levels.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
BTW I also beleive before to much more time horse slaughter will be outlawed here. And as I've said before if it is so be it thats not going to affect my world any to a extend thats noticeable. But I really hope when it is that some thought beyond that one single thing is done and the prsent propsed bill doesn't come close to doing that. In the past people have fought to shut down slaughter houses and patted themselfs on the back for the great thing they did. But then horses were crammed into larger trucks, haulded 1000's of more miles, and stand in holding pens for days rather then hours. No thought was given to the end result of shutting down the slaughter plants only what was needed to make people feel good.

I'll be honest I'm not concerned about how the people feel I'm much more into the livestock. And this bill doesn't concern itself with the horses. It concerns itself with what do we do to make people feel good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you County...I think that the battle doesn't end with the passage of the AHSPA. I know that the people I have worked with to help get this far don't plan on walking away either.

I plan on staying involved in equine rescue, etc after the bill passes (whenever that is, I hope it's soon). I also plan to continue to work for stricter enforcement of the Humane Slaughter Act and will continue to lobby for more animals to be covered by that law.

The anti slaughter campaign has made me much more knowledgeable about a lot of issues. In a way, I am just getting started.

[Lildunhorse]

You got that right, sister. This is only the beginning!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SafeHorses:
The anti slaughter campaign has made me much more knowledgeable about a lot of issues. In a way, I am just getting started. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Why vote if the majority doesn't win? Good question, ask Al Gore.

[county]

Were stirring up trouble? I take it your not real secure in your opinions if another threatens yours.

BTW I was asked here by a anti slaughter person.

[county]

With out a doubt the statement by many that their moving on to other species to halt there slaughter is the biggest reason livestock producers fight to stop them. I personally do not know of any producers that abuse, neglect, or wish any harm onto their product. But when anti slaughter groups fight to put people out of business you can bet theres going to be resistanace.

I have no problem with people not eating meat, eggs, milk, etc. but when they try to stop me from doing so then I'll fight back with all I can. IMO no one has the right to decide what I choose to eat or drink.

[Lildunhorse]

Who said they were moving on to other species to halt their slaughter?

[county]

Many groups PETA being one there pretty much terrorists from what I've seen. They have been caught burning plants, slashing tires, making threats on workers, calling their homes and harrasing there families. Real nice type people if your a whacko. And producers will fight to get any species from being on the list to stop slaughter of. They have no intentions of allowing these groups to start putting them out of business one by one.

[SafeHorses]

County, you just made a huge assumption in what LDH and I were agreeing on and are now off and running with an "issue" that isn't there. Where on earth did you get from us that we wanted to all livestock companies out of business? And who is trying to tell you what to eat?

I was AGREEING with you fer cryin' out loud!! We shouldn't walk away from the horses once AHSPA is passed. Plus, like you, I want humane treatment of animals at slaughter houses.

Why are you making things up? You're out of line!

[county]

I didn't assume anything, didn't even know I was talking about you?

Out of line? I had no idea you were the one to decide any one was. I really don't think your as important as you would like to be.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
With out a doubt the statement by many that their moving on to other species to halt there slaughter is the biggest reason livestock producers fight to stop them. I personally do not know of any producers that abuse, neglect, or wish any harm onto their product. But when anti slaughter groups fight to put people out of business you can bet theres going to be resistanace.

I have no problem with people not eating meat, eggs, milk, etc. but when they try to stop me from doing so then I'll fight back with all I can. IMO no one has the right to decide what I choose to eat or drink. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right here...this is what I mean...you are bringing up something that hasn't been a part of this discussion AT ALL.

I repeat: I think it's out of line to write what you did where you did it. We weren't promoting that at all and it wasn't being discussed until you threw it in there right next to what we were discussing.

[county]

I had no idea there were rules on what can be brought up? Why did some of the anti slaugher people bring up personal remarks about others, why did they bring up things about other species of slaughter, and housing? Where exactly is the rules about what can be brought up? As far as what you feel is out of line I'll be real sure to make a note of that next time I care.

[SafeHorses]

This thread is about getting the Ensign Amendment passed and morphed into the issue of horse slaughter in general. If you want to discuss the slaughter of other farm animals, start another thread. To discuss how stopping horse slaughter is really just step one in stopping all slaughter is an agribusiness scare tactic and not what those of us working on AHSPA and other anti slaughter issues are guilty of at all. Start another thread if that's what you want to discuss, but don't do it here because that's not what we're about.

[county]

Ah I don't think your a moderator so what you feel should be discussed here doesn't concern me. However maybe you should express your wants to someone who cares.

[Lildunhorse]

I guess we've established that County doesn't care. Nite, all!

[SafeHorses]

Let's be clear here...the anti horse slaughter advocates want to stop the slaughter of horses. Agribusiness wants to misled the public by telling them that this is just step one in the "PETA liberal" handbook of stopping all slaughter and telling everyone what they can and cannot eat. This is a scare tactic! Anyone who is swallowing the logic that county just promoted above thread is being misled by agribusiness. The anti horse slaughter advocates have never promoted what county is writing about above.

"statement by many" is what county wrote...and that's not what's been written by the anti slaughter advocates. It's a false premise.

[county]

Thats your idea of clear. So tell me honestly does the anti slaughter fraction beleive everything that there backers have stated on here? Such as the reason theres slaughter is because theres to many horses? That the only reason people sell horses at auctions where theres a chance a meat buyer could buy them is for greed? Just want to be clear on the anti slaughter position.

[county]

Lildunhorse you seem to be leaving it wide open. I don't care about what? If you mean I don't care what Safehorses thinks I should post about your right. Beyond that your pretty much wrong.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Thats your idea of clear. So tell me honestly does the anti slaughter fraction beleive everything that there backers have stated on here? Such as the reason theres slaughter is because theres to many horses? That the only reason people sell horses at auctions where theres a chance a meat buyer could buy them is for greed? Just want to be clear on the anti slaughter position. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's very clear what I am objecting to. You haven't addressed that beyond the fact that you don't care that I find it underhanded to try and float the lie about what it is we want to outlaw and what our goal is. It's an old scare tactic and it's a lie...says a lot to me about you that you don't care that you are peddling a lie

[county]

To you its a lie but that doesn't mean any more or any less then any other persons opinion about it. I notice you side stepped my questions though. Of course I figured you would your in this for an agenda nothing more nothing less. And only one side of the issue works for your agenda.

[SafeHorses]

I never believed that slaughter exists because there are too many horses and have stated that more than once. I am not the spokesperson for others who say it.

I do believe that greed drives the industry. That is my opinion and, as I wrote upthread, you could readily insert money-making, commerce, etc in the place of the word greed. Go back and read it.

And you are peddling a lie about the motives of the anti slaughter advocates.

[county]

And you peddle lies about the pro slaughter advocates

[SafeHorses]

Such as? You don't like the greed tag I take it. Hmmm...should I care?

[county]

Only if you want to.

[county]

BTW you take it wrong, with the greed tag I just consider the source.

[SafeHorses]

Whatever dude. This is way off topic at this point.

[county]

But then I'm not the one who started calling people liars

[ASB Stars]

You guys are just wasting your precious time on County. I deal with this type all of the time unfortunately, only out here it is the Amish, who figure that everything has a value, as a possession, right up until they sell it off for meat. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

I am totally, irrevocably anti-slaughter, and I wrote my truly good for nothing Senator (who also thought that the silver bullet theory was OTAY as a Jr. Senator http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) and passed this along.

[county]

This type? Oh you mean someone who expresses their opinion on a subject. Gee seems like theres an awful lot of precious time being wasted on alot of differant people.

[county]

BTW if I only use things till there used up then try to get the last dollar how come theres about 20 head of horses, cattle, hogs, and sheep buried in the pet cemetary here?

I'm thinking you have no clue what your talking about.

[SafeHorses]

You're peddling a lie, that's a little different to me than being a liar. You sure do get sensitive!

[county]

I'm not sensative at all. You feel I peddled a lie which I don't see at all. I said that many livestock producers feel that if one species of livestock is banned from slaughter others will also be. Wheres the lie? Are you saying that there liars when they state their concerns? Just how do you prove that? Many producers here have made the statement to me over the years and I beleive its a concern they have,. When they told you their concerns how did you determine they lied?

[SafeHorses]

Because they are assuming something that has no basis in fact. The people leading the fight in DC to outlaw slaughter have NEVER had that agenda. It's a scare tactic to upset ranchers, it's not based in fact at all.

[county]

That may or may not be but wheres the lie? If there concernned about it and state so I don'rt see the lie part. And I have had members of differant anti slaugher groups tell me they will fight to shut down all slaughter. Is that also a lie? Theres been people on this forum state they think all slaughter should be banned. More lies? I think you need to learn the actuial definition of a lie.

[ASB Stars]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
BTW if I only use things till there used up then try to get the last dollar how come theres about 20 head of horses, cattle, hogs, and sheep buried in the pet cemetary here?

I'm thinking you have no clue what your talking about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't the vaguest notion- do they predate your ownership ? Or now, are you going to share your deep love of all things warm and fuzzy ? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have followed your posts for awhile now, and it seems your major argument is that we don't care to see "one species" slaughtered. Probably true. And YOUR point would be ? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
That may or may not be but wheres the lie? If there concernned about it and state so I don'rt see the lie part. And I have had members of differant anti slaugher groups tell me they will fight to shut down all slaughter. Is that also a lie? Theres been people on this forum state they think all slaughter should be banned. More lies? I think you need to learn the actuial definition of a lie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To make an assumption about something and pass it around as a fact is a lie. It's that simple. I don't know who on this board is advocating that all slaughter be eliminated, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the anti horse slaughter advocates in DC and their legislative efforts to stop horse slaughter. Not one of them has ever stated that they see this as step one in ending slaughter in the US.

[county]

Do they predate my ownership? They were all born with me and lived their life with me one horse was 33. What would my point be that you don't want to slaugher one species? Like i've said I don't think anyone should slaughter any of their livestock or pets if they don't want to. Just don't tell the rest of the world they can't.

As far as sharing my love of all things warm and fuzzy I don't love all things warm and fuzzy. Many many things aren't close to worth it.

[county]

An assumption? So when people have expressed their concerns its an assumption? I don't hardly think so.

[SafeHorses]

Okay, but I do...the meat industry has spent a ton of money to confuse the issue, make false allegations about the consequences of slaughter being outlawed, claimed that it is just one more example of humane euthanasia in the face of evidence that it isn't, claimed that they are only taking the unwanted ones (when I have witnessed the exact opposite time and time again), etc. Sorry if I take all of that and decide that their "concerns" are really just a pack of lies based on false assumptions designed to scare people. I think they will say anything to save their industry. Pardon me if I find that dishonest.

[gazenna]

Brigit, I need to ask you how old you are, and do you have any children? I sense a coldness about you, maybe I am wrong but you seem to lack feeling. Your comment about (horses standing around eating oats at the feedlot getting fat, poor ponies) just seems very cold. I think that most women even if they were pro slaughter would atleast have just a bit of empathy which i think would come from having even a little bit of the ability and need to nuture another living thing. I think it also could be that maybe you are just trying to be funny, or your trying to get a rise out of people, or you just really do not give a damn about anything or anyone but yourself.

[county]

Gee Safehorses and can you tell me honestly that no one on the anti slaughter side doesn't cloud the issue and tell lies? I mean come on be honest about it. Read all the responses from the anti slaughter people on this thread alone and tell me theres no lies. LOL I mean do you actually beleive I'm on here only because the AQHA is paying me!!! ROTFLMAO

[ASB Stars]

I've always felt that if the slaughter houses would open their doors, and allow a real film crew in, for say a month, to film as they chose, and then the footage was aired, there would be a rush to vegetarianism that would rival any religious conversion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Or, follow the trail from sale, or feed lot, to slaughter- trucking and all... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

I don't think that there is a need for lies on the side of the anti-slaughter groups, at all, if any are being made, which is another question, altogether. The truth will suffice nicely, thank you ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[county]

I don't think theres need for lies period but there sure are alot of them going around. Most in the form of personal attacks.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
That may or may not be but wheres the lie? If there concernned about it and state so I don'rt see the lie part. And I have had members of differant anti slaugher groups tell me they will fight to shut down all slaughter. Is that also a lie? &lt;SNIP&gt;. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
HSUS and PETA are against all animal exploitation and this DOES include slaughter. Among other things they want us all to become vegans.
BTW, I am against horse slaughter but I do eat meat, some of which I raise myself.

[bjrudq]

really? i belonged to hsus for years and read the magazine faithfully and i found the main emphasis to be anti-cruelty. i never saw any attempts to get me to become a vegan.

of course they did point out the horrors of factory farming, but that's not the same as telling people to become vagan.

there are humane ways to get meat, milk and eggs.

the anti slaughter faction is not just one big monolithic movement whereing everyone shares the same beliefs and goals. some believe tht all salughter of all animals should be stopped. some just care about slaughter of horses. some would be ok with slaughter of horses if it was humane, but believe so strongly that it never will be and so therefore it should be banned.

some think that working simultaneously to improve slaughter conditions for horses, while still working toward elimination of slaughter is a good strategy. others think it is a bad strategy.

it is the same on the other side, you know. there are pro slaughter people who think animals were put on this earth exclusively for human use and humans can do whatever they want. there are slaughter people who think animals don't have feelings and therefore cruelty is ok. there are those who see animals as possessions, and of course you can treat your own stuff however you wish. there are those who care only about making a buck,and if it is cruel or painful, too bad, it's just a side effect of the goal of making as much money as possible.

and there are pro slaughter people who are kind to animals, but see nothing wrong with killing them for food, and wish it to be done humanely.

i think that all the pro slaughter people are wrong-or at least, i disagree with them. but it is possible to be respectful of the people who care about humane treatment of animals, even if they advocate eating them. and it is unfair to assume that anyone who raises cattle, or eats beef, automatically advocates cruelty to animals.

both pro slaughter and anti slaughter people can be working toward better conditions for horses who go to slaughter. i disagree with that, i think efforts are better directed toward ending horse slaughter-but i can respect it and not attack someone who holds that belief. and i will not assume that he lying when he claims to treat his animals well.

i have not visited county's farm but i know people who have and i believe it to be the case that he is a good horseman and treats his animals well.

if you don't want to believe it becasue you disagree with his position on horse slaughter, that's fine, but to make assumptions about the way he keeps his animals and to accuse him of misusing them is out of line, a personal attack, and, frankly, not very intelligent.

some of you had an opportunity to have a useful dialogue with a pro slaughter person who is not an extremist and who has a valuable pov...and you BLEW it, by your overemotional reactionary attitudes.

particularly asb, with your stupid comments. you don't know what you are talking about. GET OFF MY SIDE!

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bjrudq:
really? i belonged to hsus for years and read the magazine faithfully and i found the main emphasis to be anti-cruelty. i never saw any attempts to get me to become a vegan.&lt;SNIP&gt;
! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I obviously don't get their magazine but if you look at their website...
http://www.hsus.org/humane_living/living_in_harmony_wit...osing_a_humane_diet/ (http://www.hsus.org/humane_living/living_in_harmony_with_animals/choosing_a_humane_diet/)

[bjrudq]

ok, they are advocating a vegetarian or vegan diet-but note:

"Whatever you choose—to eat a few more meatless meals a week, to eat only humanely raised meat, or to eliminate all animal products—you have many options that will help you reach your goals. We commend you for your efforts!"

doesn't sound extremist to me.

i don't think that the more extreme advocates for animals tolerate the idea of humanely raised meat, but i could be wrong.

anyway, thanks for the link!

[Lildunhorse]

Not to hijack the thread, or anything, but while we're on the subject...
Avoiding animal products is very, very difficult!! The last two months have been a huge test of my commitment to avoid animal products all together! They sneak stuff in everywhere, even shampoo!
You can go to the health food stores where you can find animal free products clearly labeled, but if you're shopping in a regular grocery or drug store, it's nearly impossible to not grab something that contains some sort of by-product. Have you ever noticed how hard it is to find non-casienated cheese? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
This has been a hugely expensive committment, I must say!

[LNG]

I compliment you bjrudq for giving your opinions of both sides without jumping on county as the others have. Both him and brijet have been attacked for only expressing their views and quite honestly they have been very civilin their responses. I have never sent a horse to slaughter and probably would never send one. I still have not made up my mind completely on the horse slaughter issue but I have always detested people that try to tell me how to raise my livestock and what to do with them. I raise cattle, not a lot 20-25 head a year. I am very proud of the fact that I even with my small herd provide beef for approximately 150 people per year. Not to mention the by products that we find in almost everything we use. I don't do it for the money. I do it because I enjoy working with livestock any kind. Do I think that the animal rights people have an agenda. You bet. It was mentioned earlier on this thread about one of the problems is that there are to many horses bred in this country and that we should eliminate some cruel horse sports. Is this an agenda?I think so. What defines cruel horse sports ? Rodeo(easy to pick on since its just a bunch of dumb cowboys anyway right?) racing multiple breakdowns etc, eventing(just look at the videos from the Olympic's) Saddleseat(broken tails,heavy shoes long toes, tail set harnesses etc), H/J(jumping dangerous jumps) Dressage (absolutely no freedom of movement as it appears to a none horse person) etc. What does that leave us? There have been several mentions of factory farming and keeping farm animals confined. What is keeping a horse at a commercial stable? Is this not factory farming and confinement? Here is a herd animal that is used to the plains much more so then a cow, pig, or chicken and we keep most of them in a 10x12 or a 12x12 stall for 23 hours a day. Take a look at a commercial stable set on 5 maybe 10 acres or less with 50,60 or 100 horses on or a race track that may have upwards of 3000 horses during a meet,all confined in stalls. Can you tell me the difference between that and a commercial confinement farm. Oh yeah they are not going to slaughter!!! But is it cruel to these horses? Maybe not to you but how about that camera crew that somebody mentioned. They go through take the pics of horses wearing cribbing collars,kick chains, tail harnesses,manure piles, maybe the vets out and they have to twitch a horse(that would make a great pic). In other words the non horse, non animal public can be made to believe anything by some pictures and a good ad campaign. I know that I drifted of the subject but I believe that it is all related. Remember that old saying "What goes around comes around" and be carefull who you sleep with.

[bjrudq]

yes, but this is where i disagree with you: the "slippery slope" argument is used all the time to justify doing nothing about a particular issue. it holds no water for me.

the pro slaughter advocates always point to the extremists as a reason to not be anti slaughter.(boy i sure am butchering the english language this morning.) being against slughter means that the next thing you know , riding will be banned.(i don't think so. but people who ride and show in public should be aware that they are being watched. and i think you will agree that there are plenty of instances of poor sportsmanship and damaging riding out there that do not help the public perception.)

but in any movement, there are going to be extremists. the existence of extremists does not invalidate the movement.

hubert humphrey became mayor of minneapolis with the support of the communist party, as well as the democratic farmer labor party and the labor unions. horse slaughter will end with the support of PETA, as well as those caring horsepeople who are opposed to it.

the radical element often exposes injustices that the rest of us can work to correct without becoming radicals ourselves. that's the way things change. imo

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
Not to hijack the thread, or anything, but while we're on the subject...
Avoiding animal products is very, very difficult!! The last two months have been a huge test of my commitment to avoid animal products all together! They sneak stuff in everywhere, even shampoo!
You can go to the health food stores where you can find animal free products clearly labeled, but if you're shopping in a regular grocery or drug store, it's nearly impossible to not grab something that contains some sort of by-product. Have you ever noticed how hard it is to find non-casienated cheese? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
This has been a hugely expensive committment, I must say! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I might be missing something here, but isn't cheese an animal product?

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LNG:&lt;SNIP&gt;
In other words the non horse, non animal public can be made to believe anything by some pictures and a good ad campaign. I know that I drifted of the subject but I believe that it is all related. Remember that old saying "What goes around comes around" and be carefull who you sleep with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a point that I have tried (and obviously failed) to make.
It's been a while and I forget the details but a while back there was legislation pending in MD that would have banned coersive devices on horses. Sounds harmless, doesn't it?

Well, a whip is coersion, isn't it?

How about a bit?

Maybe even a halter?

Your paddock fence?

[LNG]

Just one more thing to ad. I don't believe that with the end of slaughter that we will see a lot of starving horses. However that same person who would send a horse to slaughter (and I am not stereotypeing anybody) may not have the means or the willingness to pay a vet to euthanize a horse nor a pick up fee for the renderer. Here in Kentucky the county pays the PU fee but when I lived in Illinois it was $125 to pu a horse and that was 5 years ago. You combine that with a vet fee of about the same amount and its a lot of money for many people. Yeah the arguement can be made that they shouldn't have horses but they will anyway. Many people will take that horse out back and put a bullet in its head and haul the carcass into a ditch, or grind it up and feed it to the dogs. And there is nothing that anybody can do about it. So what have gained.

[bjrudq]

well, it is probably illegal to leave a horse in a ditch, especially if there are neighbors. so enforcing that law shouldn't be a problem. of course there will be people who violate it; there are people who violate it now.

as far as shooting an old suffering horse and feeding it to dogs; i don't have a problem with that if it's done humanely.

not every anti slaughter person thinks a horse should be put ain a casket and entombed or cremated and put in an urn. heck, i don't even think people should be disposed of that way.

so waht we gain is discouraging and/or stopping raising horses specifically for slaughter; inhumane treatment of horses who go to slaughter; and perhaps fewer sound useable horses being disposed of by killing.

being against slaughter has nothing to do with legislation to protect horses from coercive devices. most of us who are in active horse sports can see the difference.

instead of legislative banning of the use of coercive devices we would do better to enforce our own rules of horsemanship among ourselves, instead of looking the other way when someone uses excessive force on their animal. if we did, maybe the whacko types wouldn't feel a need to propose legislation.

the argument can be turned around, you know. the whackos could say, how much can these people really care about horses when they advocate their slaughter after lifetime of service? they are just willing to run their animal through an auction or even sell their "friend" to the meat man-for a few hundred dollars they let their "friend" be transported in horrible conditions to a frightening and painful end.

that doesn't sound very good either.

people who care about their horses will give them a fitting end and people who don't, won't-regardless of whether there is slaughter or not. but why make it easy for them, and even pay them?

[LNG]

Farm ditchs across this country are littered with the carcasss of farm animals that have died on farms. You can find bones almost anywhere.

[bjrudq]

i don't see that where i live. if there are carcasses-they are back from the road.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bjrudq:&lt;SNIP&gt;
as far as shooting an old suffering horse and feeding it to dogs; i don't have a problem with that if it's done humanely.

&lt;SNIP&gt;
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some foxhunts will take old horses to feed the hounds. My old pony will go that way this winter. I had the vet put my old (38 YO) horse to "sleep" and I believe that was far more traumatic to him than a clean shot to the brain.

[county]

I live in about as farm country as it gets and can say I've yet to see any dead animals laying in ditches other then wildlife that hit by a car. Why would anyone want a dead animal laying in a ditch by their property regardless of where they live? This township has over 1,000,000 turkeys, 45,000 head of cattle, and 5,000 head of horses. I've yet to see even one dead one of any species laying in a ditch here.

[LNG]

I am not talking about ditchs on the side of the road iam talking about the back woods, ravines etc. Every farm I have owned (3 now) and every farm that I have hiked, or looked at I have come across bones etc. That is not that uncommon.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bjrudq:
i don't see that where i live. if there are carcasses-they are back from the road. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know some of the farmers drag their dead cows into the woods. I've done it myself with the occasional sheep.

[county]

I don't feel if slaughter ends there will be more horses starved either. People that starve or abuse livestock do so regardless. I do think you'll see more horses hauled somewhere and turned loose like state land and parks we've already had cases like that here. One thing slaughter does is set the bottom indicator for horse prices. If you know for sure you can get say $300 for the horse you have from a meat buyer then thats the bottom price you start at when selling. Take that away and there is no bottom indicator some horses that no one wants become worth nothing. And where do they go? Alot of them end up killed just to have them dead to me a much more disgusting thing then slaughter. They become like H.S. that kill just to kill.

[county]

Some drag dead abnimals into woods etc. here most dig a hole and bury them I know I do. Why would anyone want a dead stinking carcass around is beyond me.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Some drag dead abnimals into woods etc. here most dig a hole and bury them I know I do. Why would anyone want a dead stinking carcass around is beyond me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
With the buzzards and scavengers they are gone in two days or so. They are usually found at a distance from the house, barn, etc. or at least that is how Murphy has worked for me.
When you find a ewe that has been killed by a coyote and is not all there and what is there is crawling with maggots and the only way you found her is by smell and the buzzards and you can't get the loader to her you don't have much choice.

[bjrudq]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They become like H.S. that kill just to kill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


i don't know what this means?

[county]

Like a Humane Society that kills dogs and cats just to get rid of them. They kill just to kill at least slaughtered livestock are killed for a purpose.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Like a Humane Society that kills dogs and cats just to get rid of them. They kill just to kill at least slaughtered livestock are killed for a purpose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Two PETA employees were recently charged with numerous counts of animal cruelty and improper disposal of dead animals when they were caught dumping dead dogs and cats in a resteraunt dumpster. They had picked up the animals from various sources in NC and killed them.

[SweatySaddlepad]

O-M----G this is such insanity http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif! Where do you find the time to post non-stop and say the say the same things over and over and over. If you people would put half the amount of time you spend on this board in productive lobbying perhaps you could do some good. No you would rather banter back and forth because YOU enjoy it, it gets your hair up and you like it. You believe slaughter should happen but want it more humane, go for it, do something about it! I know people who LOVE horses but truly believe outlawing slaughter would be terrible for the horses and they want more humane treatment and transport, I respect they have their opinion, I don't respect not making an effort for your beliefs.

The Humane Society must EUTHANIZE animals because people are IRRESPONSIBLE IDIOTS and until we can pass some laws outlawing idiots, who suffers, THE ANIMALS. We could call it the Idiot Amendment These organizations that you are all bashing have done some good, they do your dirty work. People want to hide their heads when anything remotely awful is brought to life. These organizations are directly responsible for getting cock fighting, dog fighting stopped, getting better humane laws passed, better treatment for all animals including labs animals, they have put in place many, many free and low cost spay and neuter programs, they have enlightened us about the treatment of circus animals which has caused better treatment did you do any of these things?. I could go on and on but unlike you people I don't have time to sit in front of a computer for hours on end, google it, your on the computer enough. Obviously you haven't supported any of these HORRIBLE humane groups, who do you think is down in the gulf helping the animals now. I am certainly not belittling any of the wonderful small groups who have moved mountains too.

Carolprudm where is a link to that article?

Go forth and be proactive and productive in what ever you believe http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[carolprudm]

Here is a link to the article
http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/misc_05/PETA_Abuse705.html
The source is the Associated Press.
And from my local paper
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2005/062005/06172005/108118
and more SICKENING detail
http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/05/7/tsg.petastaffersface7.05.htm

BTW, I am against horse slaughter, unlike County.

[onthebit12000]

Dear friends,

The Senate reconvenes at 2 pm eastern today!
They will be taking up the Agricultural Appropriations bill and its amendment, including the Ensign/Byrd amendment. Voting will commence either this evening or early Tuesday.

Please continue to contact (calls and faxes are best) your Senators and ask that they vote YES on the Ensign/Byrd amendment!

Once again, for your convenience, here is the list of contact info for the Senate:

ALABAMA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Sen. Richard C. Shelby (R-AL) 202-224-5744
202-224-3416
Senator Jeff Sessions (R-AL) 202-224-4124 202-224-3149

ALASKA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) 202-224-3004 202-224-2354
Senator Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) 202-224-6665
202-224-5301

ARIZONA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator John McCain (R-AZ) 202-224-2235 202-228-2862
Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ) 202-224-4521 202-224-2207

ARKANSAS

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Blanche Lambert Lincoln (D-AR) 202-224-4843
202-228-1371
Senator Mark Pryor (D-AR) 202-224-2353 202-228-0908

CALIFORNIA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 202-224-3841
202-228-3954
Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) 202-224-3553 415-956-6701


COLORADO

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Ken Salazar (D-CO) 202-224-5852 202-228-5036
Senator Wayne Allard (R-CO) 202-224-5941 202-224-6471

CONNECTICUT

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Christopher J. Dodd (D-CT) 202-224-2823
202-224-1083
Senator Joseph I. Lieberman (D-CT) 202-224-4041
202-224-9750

DELAWARE:

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Joseph R. Biden, Jr. (D-DE) 202-224-5042
202-224-0139
Senator Thomas R. Carper (D-DE) 202-224-2441
202-228-2190

FLORIDA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Mel Martinez (R-FL) 202-224-3041 202-228-5171
Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL) 202-224-5274 202-228-2183

GEORGIA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Saxby Chambliss (D-GA) 202-224-3521
202-228-2090
Senator Johnny Isakson (R-GA) 202-224-3643
202-228-0724

HAWAII

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Daniel K. Inouye (D-HI) 202-224-3934
202-224-6747
Senator Daniel K. Akaka (D-HI) 202-224-6361
202-224-2126

IDAHO

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Larry E. Craig (R-ID) 202-224-2752
202-228-1067
Senator Mike Crapo (R-ID) 202-224-6142 202-228-1375

ILLINOIS

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Richard J. Durbin (D-IL) 202-224-2152
202-228-0400
Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) 202-224-2854 202-228-4260

INDIANA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX
Senator Richard G. Lugar (R-IN) 202-224-4814
202-228-0360
Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN) 202-224-5623 202-228-1377

IOWA

Member Name DC Phone DC FAX

Senator Charles E. Grassley (R-IA) 202-224-3744
202-224-6020
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[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
I might be missing something here, but isn't cheese an animal product? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes it is, but I've been trying to avoid the "by-products". Products from slaughtered animals.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Like a Humane Society that kills dogs and cats just to get rid of them. They kill just to kill at least slaughtered livestock are killed for a purpose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!!! Why not have a USE for them rather than being wasteful.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Like a Humane Society that kills dogs and cats just to get rid of them. They kill just to kill at least slaughtered livestock are killed for a purpose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!!! Why not have a USE for them rather than being wasteful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.kanyak.com/ckettle.html

[nettiemaria]

So, County and Brigett, just out of curiousity, would you prefer that these unwanted dogs and cats, caused by OVERBREEDING (!!!!!!) and irresponsible ownership, be sold to Asia for THEM to eat?

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazenna:
Brigit, I need to ask you how old you are, and do you have any children? I sense a coldness about you, maybe I am wrong but you seem to lack feeling. Your comment about (horses standing around eating oats at the feedlot getting fat, poor ponies) just seems very cold. I think that most women even if they were pro slaughter would atleast have just a bit of empathy which i think would come from having even a little bit of the ability and need to nuture another living thing. I think it also could be that maybe you are just trying to be funny, or your trying to get a rise out of people, or you just really do not give a damn about anything or anyone but yourself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you say this because what I say bothers you? And perhaps you can't think of a better response than a personal attack? Hmm...

No I don't lack feeling, I think and react with my common sense (which yes may differ from yours), not my emotions and I speak bluntly. Gazenna apparently you didn't get the gist of my scarcastic comment, no I wasn't being funny. I really don't feel bad for these horses standing in a feedlot eating their fill because in my mind thats far better off than standing in a bare pasture starving to death.

County, this goes back a bit on this forum but I get what you are trying to say. If we ban horse slaughter for really no good reason (other than our emotional well being) then what will be next? What's to say that something else won't get banned? From what I've seen of PETA that's what they do, conquer one "issue" and then brainstorm for something else to do. Why should we believe that the banning of other types of slaughter will stop after horses? And why should the anti people believe it won't?

Why is horse slaughter any different than putting a bullet between Ol' Rusty's eyes, and sending him to be made into foxmeat, glue and glelatin? Or any different than any other type of slaughter, but wait that's off topic, I apologize, or is it?

I don't see the actual killing process as cruel. Sure if they cut their throat or chopped of their legs first then I'd have a problem. But I will agree with the anti side of things and say that some aspects of the slaughter process (travel etc) could definitely improve.

And what will stop large transports of horses going 1000's of miles away to an auction where they will still be sold for slaughter? How can that be stopped?

And as for the whole idea of a film crew going into a slaughter plant. A documentary could support either side, it's all in the spin that's put on it.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
So, County and Brigett, just out of curiousity, would you prefer that these unwanted dogs and cats, caused by OVERBREEDING (!!!!!!) and irresponsible ownership, be sold to Asia for THEM to eat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought we weren't supposed to be talking about other animals? I thought that was completely off topic?

[nettiemaria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by county:
Like a Humane Society that kills dogs and cats just to get rid of them. They kill just to kill at least slaughtered livestock are killed for a purpose.


EXACTLY!!! Why not have a USE for them rather than being wasteful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just asking based on what both of you previously commented???

[county]

Would I prefer cats and dogs be eaten rather then kill them just to have them dead? I have no problem with that at all, if someone wants to eat them fine with me better then just killing and tossing to the side. Hey my father eats Lutefish and to me thats about as disgusting a food there is.

[nettiemaria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't see the actual killing process as cruel. Sure if they cut their throat or chopped of their legs first then I'd have a problem. But I will agree with the anti side of things and say that some aspects of the slaughter process (travel etc) could definitely improve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


They do cut their throats. That's how the horses die. Otherwise, they could not be eaten, they have to be bled out. The captive bolt is used as a stunner, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

So, you DO have a problem with it afterall, you just didn't know it.

[county]

Other species of animals is only off topic if one side brings it up. The other side can do what it wants and its fine.

[county]

All livestock has its throat cut to be bled out. How else do you get the blood out of the meat properly. If you eat any meat thats how it was done.

[nettiemaria]

Did someone say something to someone about being off topic???? Maybe I missed something.

[Brigit]

Oh I see County. Thanks for clarifying that, I figured that's the way it was.

Slaughtering horses is no different than slaughtering anything else. They are all put in trucks for transport, they are all put in feedlots, I'm sure they are all frightened, they are all stunned, they all have their throats cut, they are all hung upside down to bleed out etc etc etc.

If someone else chooses to eat something that I don't doesn't mean I'll condemn them for it.

[county]

nettiemaria if you look back you'll see where a number of times anti slaughter people get upset if any other species of animal is brought up. My guess is they know there slaughtered the same way as horses but since they eat the other species they don't want to think about it.

[Laurierace]

I know that horses are slaughtered the same way as other animals, and I just don't care. I have the right to decide what issues do and do not matter to me. Your argument pro slaughter may be the more logical one, but to those of us who care about stopping horse slaughter, logic doesn't factor in. I believe you have made your point, now please let us talk about something that matters deeply to us without criticism.

[bjrudq]

i would like to see no slaughter for horses, and humane slaughter for other livestock.

if horse slaughter could be made humane i might be ok with it-but i don't think it ever will be.and as long is there is horse slaughter there will be people who raise horses for slaughter, and i don't like that. and when meat prices go up, my pets become more vulnerable to theft.

if we send our unwanted dogs and cats to asia to be eaten and that turns out to be profitable, then there will be people who start raising dogs and cats for the meat market. i don’t like that either.

call me inconsistent-i don't care. my feelings, my opinion only.

as far as dead horses having no use other than being eaten-all mine go to the renderer. they die here, at home, with minimal stress and then the truck takes them away. they are not wasted.

[county]

I think were talking aboiut two differant things. A persons pet dying at home and killing animals just to have them dead are not close to the same thing.

[county]

Laurierace, your joking right? I see some talking about a subject thats important top them that are taking alot of criticism but don't think its the same ones your talking about

[Laurierace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Laurierace, your joking right? I see some talking about a subject thats important top them that are taking alot of criticism but don't think its the same ones your talking about </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The someone I was talking about was YOU! We get it already horses are the same as any other livestock and are better off with a bolt in their head. Now leave those of us who don't feel that way ALONE. All you are doing is wasting your time because you certainly aren't going to change anyone's mind just like we aren't going to change yours.

[nettiemaria]

I am wondering why we haven't heard anything yet about the Amendment.

[county]

I've never tryed to change anyones mind and have no intention. Could you show me where I was giving anyone criticism? As far as not posting its a public forum, if I were breaking any rules I assume the moderator would say so.

[Laurierace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I've never tryed to change anyones mind and have no intention. Could you show me where I was giving anyone criticism? As far as not posting its a public forum, if I were breaking any rules I assume the moderator would say so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not breaking any rules, just beating a dead horse so to speak.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Laurierace:

The someone I was talking about was YOU! We get it already horses are the same as any other livestock and are better off with a bolt in their head. Now leave those of us who don't feel that way ALONE. All you are doing is wasting your time because you certainly aren't going to change anyone's mind just like we aren't going to change yours. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We aren't trying to change your opinion either, we are just voicing ours and you are with yours. And it is a public forum, if you don't like it start a private chat.

ps I don't think we ever said that the horses were "better off with a bolt in their head". If you're gonna repeat something make sure you've got it right.

[Lildunhorse]

They started looking at the Agriculture Appropriations bill at around 2:00 Eastern time. There probably won't be a vote until tomorrow a.m.

[county]

Laurierace, go back through this thread and count the times something has been repeated then tell me who all has been repeating things. I think your looking at one side only, which doesn't surprise me at all actually.

[nettiemaria]

Brigett, YOU say to Laurie that SHE needs to be sure of something before she says it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You said you'd be more against it if they cut their throats to kill them, and now that you've learned that they do, you're still here defending and condoning it. Also, there have been instances of cows vocalizing on the "line" and getting parts of their bodies cut off while they were still feeling what was going on and were aware.

Again, just makes me glad I don't have closer neighbors. Sick, sick, sick.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
Brigett, YOU say to Laurie that SHE needs to be sure of something before she says it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You said you'd be more against it if they cut their throats to kill them, and now that you've learned that they do, you're still here defending and condoning it. Also, there have been instances of cows vocalizing on the "line" and getting parts of their bodies cut off while they were still feeling what was going on and were aware.

Again, just makes me glad I don't have closer neighbors. Sick, sick, sick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm our reading comprehension skills are lacking a bit here. What I actually said was "if they cut their throats or chopped off their legs FIRST". Please read more carefully.
Yes and chickens run and flop around after they've had their heads cut off, doesn't mean their feeling it.

With all of these horror stories of things going wrong, I'd like to know the statistics. How many "incidents" per # of animals occurs? I'm sure it's not as many as is projected in the media. Those that do happen are focused on and a spin beneficial to the producer is put on the story. Really depending on how you look at anything it can be made to sound horrible.