Loudoun County (VA) Planning Commission wants input, 1/21

[SaddleFitterVA]

From http://www.loudoun.gov/news/rural06.htm


Planning Commission Seeks Input on Proposed Rural Zoning
The Loudoun County Planning Commission will host a public input session to receive comments on proposed zoning, subdivision and Comprehensive Plan changes regarding rural Loudoun, specifically the Rural Policy Area of the county. The input session will be held Saturday, January 21, 2006, beginning at 9:00 a.m. and ending no later than noon. Registration to speak will begin at 8:45 a.m. The input session will be held in the Board of Supervisors meeting room on the first floor of the Loudoun County Government Center, 1 Harrison Street S.E. in Leesburg.

The proposed amendments would restore the Agricultural Rural zoning designation to the areas predominately zoned A-3 Agricultural Residential. The proposed amendments would allow a property owner to create a subdivision one lot at a time or as a cluster subdivision or as a conventional subdivision. Many uses that are currently allowed by a special exception process in the A-3 district are proposed to be permitted by-right pursuant to a number of performance standards within the Agricultural Rural zoning districts. Generally speaking, north of Goose Creek would be permitted to subdivide at a rate of one lot per ten acres and south of Goose Creek would be permitted to subdivide at a rate of one lot per twenty acres.

Copies of the proposed amendments are available on the Loudoun County Government Website at http://www.loudoun.gov/rural or at the government center at the public counters in the Department of Building and Development and the Department of Planning.

# # #

Contact: Melinda Artman, Zoning Administrator, 703-737-8915




We need new voices to attend and speak. All you need to do is sign up, get up when your turn comes and support the lower density zoning.

I will try to attend, I've already attended several of these and speak, but we need as many people as we can to support the lower density zoning.

The short version is that we'd like to support "option 1, or the Clem-Burton proprosal".

The meeting is as follows:
Date: Jan. 21, 2006 (this coming Saturday)

Time: The input session will be begin at 9:00 a.m. and end no later than noon. Registration to speak will begin at 8:45 a.m.

Location: The input session will be held in the Board of Supervisors meeting room on the first floor of the Loudoun County Government Center, 1 Harrison Street S.E. in Leesburg.

Mel

[pook]

What does the current zoning allow ?

[SaddleFitterVA]

Since the VA Supreme court threw out the old AR1/AR2 zoning maps, it is back to A3, and developers are submitting their plans for subdivisions as fast as they can, before the new zoning restrictions take place.

Egypt Farm, now owned by a developer, rumor has it that they want one house per 3 acres.

A3 means one house per 3 acres for the entire county and 3 acre lots is not smart development, IMO. Uses up land too fast, everyone stays on well and septic, which the water supply may not be up to that many new homes.

The proposed changes are listed on the website, and while I understand how complex zoning is to read, if anyone wants to retain any rural economy and feel in western Loudoun, they need to support lower density zoning.

Mel

[Beverley]

Having a cynical moment, this seems like too little too late...

Despite all the old bumper stickers, Loudoun County has been "Fairfaxed." Meets I hunted the last season at Loudoun West before moving to Utah long since subdivided...

I notice the same syndrome here in Utah, though foxhunting is not affected as there are no packs. Areas designated as parks/conservation/ greenbelt, 'redesignated' and developed just as fast as possible...local governments just cannot resist the almighty dollar, quality of living be darned.

[pook]

Thanks for the info.
I agree in that it does appear to be too little , too late, but better than the current path we are on.
Foxhunting is doomed, one way or the other. There will be no hunting on 10 and 20 acre parcels. All you can hope for is a slowdown in the paving over of the land . You won't find much farming on 10 and 20 acres also.

[SaddleFitterVA]

From another thread, I posted this possible email or message you could call in.

The first contact is:
Melinda Artman, Zoning Administrator, 703-737-8915 martman@loudoun.gov or 703-777-0397.

I have not found the individual emails for the members of the Planning Commission, but the email for the Department of Planning is dop@loudoun.gov

What I would write or say is something along these lines.




Dear Ms. Artman and members of the Planning Commission,

As a concerned citizen (or visitor) to Loudoun County, I would like to emphasize the reasons that I choose to live in (or visit) this county include the rural character. I would like to see Loudoun County keep a viable rural economy, including farms, vineyards, wineries, bed & breakfasts, stables and equestrian facilities, and other community agricultural projects.

In this interest, I would request that the Planning Commission recommend the Clem-Burton proposal for lower density development in the Rural Planning Area.

In addition, I feel that the Planning Commission needs to follow the ZORC committee's recommendations with regards to Performance Standards in Section 5-600 of the county ordinances and with regards to Specific Uses and Temproary Uses.

Sincerely,

<Your Name>
Your Address
Your contact information


Now, before everyone gets all up in arms over my mentioning some of the other industries, we need to work together with the people who care as strongly as we do that Loudoun County retain a rural economy.

Please, please, please send an email, or even better, ATTEND a meeting. I don't like giving up my ride times either, but if we don't have people willing to give up some time and participate on these citizen run boards and committees, the developers will pave it all.

Mel

[Cold Spring Farm]

Thank you for posting this. (I actually came out of lurkdom for this one!)

I am right on the fringe of this....Loudoun West and Middleburg hunt through our place. On the back side of our farm is all big farms, and from the front we see the subdivisions coming.

Rather scary when you get letters of inquiry from those RBDs (REEEALLY BIG DEVELOPERS) saying that they are trying to purchase a few big, contiguous tracts, and telling you about the wonderful subdivisions and townhomes they build!)

This morning -- as I drove my son to school, there was a young fox trotting down the fenceline. I stopped and talked to him, and he stood for a few seconds just listening, before trotting off. A little farther down, an owl was sitting on a fence post. So sad to think that this will all be gone.

Purcellville will soon be Ashburn if there is no pushback.

Will try my best to get to the meeting, but will definitely send an email!

Thanks again for the heads up.

[Cold Spring Farm]

Following on to gothedistance's point -- I was just curious about what the hunts themselves are doing -- as far as sending out e-mails and rallying the troops. I don't hunt, so have no idea as to what they are doing at an organizational level, but in sheer numbers they could have a tremendous presences and voice.

[Whistlejacket]

An excellent, intelligent, organized and level-headed land conservation group in this area, including Loudoun County, is the Piedmont Environmental Council.

They spearhead a variety activities in the area and always welcome and appreciate the participation of interested and concerned individuals.

Here is the web address:
www.pecva.org (http://www.pecva.org)

While the "suburbanization" of the area is depressing, even a small victory for land conservation is reason for cheer and continued energy.

[SaddleFitterVA]

When I first moved to Loudoun, I got onto an email list about hunt trail rides. Since I was still building that summer, I did not have time to ride and could not attend, even though most of the rides were within hacking distance of my farm.

When I first ran into the discovery about the new zoning performance standards that had been put into place regarding horse farms, I sent ONE email out to that list about the impacts of the performance standards on farms....I was removed from the list and never received another email to invite me to hunt trail rides again.

Didn't leave me with a warm fuzzy about the hunt, I was not spamming, I was not soliciting help, I was sending out information that had potential impact on most horse farms. I was not told that I had violated the hunt etiquette or that I would be removed from their list. I just ceased getting the emails.

I sometimes wonder if some of the heavy hitter foxhunters aren't just developers in waiting (like a few I met in Fairfax Hunt in the early 90's) or landowners waiting to "get rich" and move on to another locale when the prices get high enough for them.

I wonder this because I've met a few individuals and been to their "new" farms, at the edge of development....with the beautiful house and a thousand acres, a few cattle to keep low taxes, NOT in conservation easement, just waiting for the prices to go up. Then, they run and cry "property rights" if the county attempts to restrict them producing that last cash crop....the house lot.

I will say this is endemic in many horse owners. A poster here on COTH was wondering about running her own farm, and using the farm as part of her retirement fund, sell it off the most profitable way possible. As long as the farm and open space is only seen as a commodity to enrich your retirement portfolio, there will be massive losses of farmland.

There are a few foxhunters out there though, one of which, is an inspiration to me, she works tirelessly with the REDC, goes to every BOS meeting I've attended (and probably all of them), speaks eloquently about rural life and maintaining it, and if there were more of her, we wouldn't have a problem. We also have one horse breeder on the REDC.

While PEC is an excellent group, unfortunately, they are not enough and the eastern side of the BOS seems to almost discount anything from PEC as soon as they learn the source. This is why we need individuals to speak out.

I also recognize that most of the suburban dwellers do not look at a horse farm as a farm. I even have friends who argue that my farm isn't really a farm since they are just horses. I'd need to grow crops, or raise feed animals for them to recognize it as a farm. They also don't seem to value open space, unless it is a parkland behind THEIR house.

But, I was forwarded an email from a friend on FOL that was essentially my post from COTH. So someone has at least sent it out to FOL. Yay!!!!

You can just move away, but IMO, housing needs, and how they will be met, keeping people in close proximity to their livelihood is an issue that is not going to go away, and this is where some rules and controls are both necessary, and will make people who own in the "preservation" areas mad.

It is complex, and highly emotional for most people, at least at the point they are ready to sell.

Mel

[Elghund2]

Donna Rogers with Loudoun West has been working this issue for years. Donna was responsible for the trail system that is down on evergreen mills. She's has been out there years on this issue.

She also puts her money where her mouth is. The entire farm of theirs is in conservation.

[tannaman]

Does VA have a similar ag preservation program as in PA? Once you put it into ag preservation there is no pulling it out.

[J Swan]

Mel - I'm the one who posted it on FOL and it got not only a great response - there was a thoughtful discussion on conservation that resulted in one poster contacting PEC about a conservation easement.

For that hunt - I don't know the details but I suspect that had you been a member of the hunt, and they knew you - you would not have been "deleted".

Individual members of hunts speak out on their own - which is why I suggested you post this info here. Some Masters might feel that becoming involved in political matters is inappropriate for their hunt (the reasons are legion but I won't go into them here).

gride - Virginia has the "Dillon Rule" which basically permits local gov't to have little to no control over growth in their county.

So while there are many ag preservation programs, including adding your farm to the Agricultural and Forestal Districts, Purchase of Development Rights, and others - the danger is that even if the county has a well thought out Comprehensive Plan developed by its citizens - all a developer has to do is sue if they don't get what they want. And many Boards - afraid of being sued - just roll over. Proffers are given to pay for the road improvements and sewer - which is a bribe - just called a "proffer".

If folks have farms that they anticipate will have to be parceled out to fund retirement - there is always the Purchase of Development Rights program. It's a tremendous program of great benefit to landowners and the public.

[La Gringa]

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[La Gringa]

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[SaddleFitterVA]

gothedistance,

There was at least one other foxhunter there. Ms. Rogers is a frequent and eloquent speaker at these meetings. I saw her leaving at the end, and she hunts.

Kindra, if you go read my last post on that Delaplane Equestrian Complex thread in off course, you'll see that you and I are probably on the same page with regards to what is sustainable development.

There are two more meetings and the Planning Commission has until March 6 to finalize and give the results back to the Board of Supervisors, so there is still plenty of time to write letters.

Mel

[xeroxchick]

My best wishes for preserving your beautiful open space.
I must give my 2cents here about New Urbanism. That has been a big topic in preserving the area I am in, along with selling development rights and green belts. The biggest overlooked problem with NU is that when you develop very densly in these green-belted "villages," you still have a lot of commuters who are spilling out onto rural roads and creating multi-lanes, traffic lights and the inevitable influx of convenience stores, strip malls, etc. The concept sounds good, but in practice it can't be a village because people can't work there - they have to drive somewhere else to work. Also, others sell non dedicated land to make a quick buck (like people who inherit the land who live in other areas) building sprawl to service the new developments. I thought at first the concept of NU was wondereful untill I saw that there is that great flaw. Just look at Seaside FL, which was great untill it was such a success that they built another "village" right on top of it, one after the other so that it is as dense and traffic-laden as any other resort. Not trying to be neegative, just giving you something to consider about this concept.
I do think that there is a beginning movement to preserve the character of where we live, rural or urban. The moratorium that Atlanta's mayor just put on McMansions being built in urban neighborhoods is a wonderful step in letting residents have some rights to determine how thier community is used.

[La Gringa]

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[jetjocky]

Actually there may be a small ray of hope. The Virginia General Assembly is currently considering measures to allow localities to better control development. Tim Kaine discussed this pretty regularly during his run for governor. Here are a handful of bills that will require increased impact fees (HB141; HB820; HB1197), increased proffers (HB1506) and allow localities to deny rezoning if adeqaute water resources are not available (HB1318). Many of you may recall that similar legislation failed last year, but that doesn't mean that we can't keep trying. I think Kaine did a decent job of connecting the dots between transportation and land use planning, so now's the time to ride that wave (I know--I'm mixing my metaphors).

Most of the current bills are before the House of Delegates in the Counties, Cities and Towns Committee. Please take a moment to see if your legislator sits on this committee, because this is where land use legislation is made in the state. Here's the link for the Committee membership (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?061+com+H7) :

You can also find it through the General Assembly website (http://legis.state.va.us/).

Contact your legislator and tell them that you support these measures. This is especially important if your legislator is a member of this committee. Bills have to be voted out of committee before they reach the floor, so that's where much of the critical work is done.

Pardon my didactic tendencies; many of you probably already know this. As others have said, local governments can only do what the state allows them to do. The folks on this committee are the ones who truly hold the power.

Updated to add that the transportation impact fee bill (HB141) was reported out of committee on Friday. I sent Del. Joe May an email asking if he would let me know when his public facilities impact fee bill (HB 820) will be up for a hearing. Again, for folks whose legislators serve on the Cities, Towns and Counties Committee (Ingram (Chairman), Marshall, R.G., Orrock, Dudley, McQuigg, Suit, Oder, Marshall, D.W., Hurt, Cole, Iaquinto, Crockett-Stark, Lohr, Waddell, Hall, Hull, Jones, D.C., Spruill, Amundson, Armstrong, Ware, O., McEachin), please contact your legislator in support of this measure. Not sure who your delegate is? Find out on the General Assembly website (link above).

Stepping off soapbox for now...

[jetjocky]

Another update: I received an email from Joe May this afternoon and unfortunately his public facilities impact fee bill has died in committee. Well, here's to next year, I guess. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I also checked the status of the other bills and they have had no further action reported on the General Assembly website.

[J Swan]

I don't like to mix hunting with politics - but in case anyone is interested in land use and transportation issues in the Commonwealth, this site is a good read.

http://www.baconsrebellion.com/Roadtoruin/Main.php

[La Gringa]

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[La Gringa]

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[xeroxchick]

One more word about NU and I'll bow out. NU in theory sounds great - I really fell behind it in a strong way. Planning, villages, live where you work, community.
Untill I saw it put into practice. Think about it - who can actually work where they live? If I owned a dry cleaners and the community was big enough to support me, yes. But most people come in with exsisting jobs and in order to afford to live there have to keep them. I have seen the concept adopted by developers who want to keep things upscale (no shoebox starter homes) and get *more* density out of an acre. Here is a dense development with greenspace around it (that isn't guarenteed to stay despite what they promise) and lots of traffic feeding out into a rural country road. Pretty soon convenience stores pop up on the boundry of the greenspace and traffic lights have to be installed...you get the picture. Yes, right to think about alternatives to sprawl, but don't be suckered in by something dressed up to appeal to sophisticates. Just beware, that's all.

[wateryglen]

Xeroxchick you rock! Couldn't have said it better about not being suckered into something that appeals to sophisticates. THAT'S whats happening in NoVa I think...some kind of snob appeal thing.
Ironically, Mr. Wateryglen works in a building related business and yet we're anti-development. He works inside many of the McMansions and says more often than not; both spouses are working fulltime and that most do not have furniture, window dressings etc. They can't afford them. He perceives their values as kinda warped also....snobs. It's oh so ostentatious(sp?).

[SaddleFitterVA]

Opportune day to bump this topic up.

I'll go to an REDC meeting and no doubt we'll be discussing the zoning issues tonight.

As for the huge houses and the amount of furniture or window coverings...who knows.

I like rooms that are not cluttered and I don't like window coverings on most windows. Just my preference. I like windows for light and airy atmosphere, not to close them up with frilly curtains.

I also prefer the underfurnished look to the overfurnished look.

I don't have a McMansion though.

Mel

[jetjocky]

Thanks for bumping this up, Mel.

I'm afraid that I have to take issue with JSwan, whom I respect and admire based on what I know of her from this board. Hunting and politics must mix, if for no other reason than to save hunting. Land use decisions get made at the local and state levels, although the state is largely in play here, thanks to the Dillon Rule. If we want to preserve open space, we have to be active on this issue in the General Assembly and at the ballot box by supporting candidates who are as dismayed as we at the continual paving of the countryside and will propose and support legislation to give localities the teeth they need to stand up to defend local zoning and planning against suburban sprawl.

OK, I'll shut up now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Elghund2]

We use to refer to that condition as "house poor". When I use to go to business meetings and chat with people the conversation typically started with

"I have a 9999 sq ft house in xxxxx gated community."

BFD.

[wateryglen]

Elghund - THATS what I was trying to say, thank you! I'm just pointing out that a lot of the yuppies buying McMansions are into the prestige associated with a humongous house (for the 2 of them)in a neighborhood that has a name with the words...Hunt, Glen, the Reserve, Chase, Landing, Shade, some kind of tree(the Oaks,etc),...and that are 20 feet from the McMansion next door. So they really NEED window dressings!! But Mr Waterglen says there are entire empty rooms with no furniture!
I get all bothered by the names of these neighborhoods when they are the name of the farm they were built on OR are the name of a hunt. There IS an Old Dominion Hunt Estates for example. I feel like its just people chasing status.....
Not meaning to flame those of you into "minimalism" in decorating BTW!

[Hunter's Rest]

Wglen
There is indeed an Old Dominion Hunt Estates, but, amusingly, its in Warrenton Hunt territory (no-man's land, actually, but in WH if you stretch the territory to its limits.) Used to be WH leased to ODH but not for years. Jim Atkins made sure he get that land back for WH when he went to WH after leaving ODH many moons ago. He knew good covert when he saw it ... (not that ODH estates is esp. good covert - just a half-dozen big houses all on a single lane off of Leeds Manor Road. The only saving grace there is that they're pretty old, like 20 years or so, so there's lots of mature trees and good roughlands grown over the culverts and run-off swales. Sort of like olde-towne McLean - which I believe was Fairfax territory way back when ...)

[J Swan]

Sorry - jetjocky - I didn't want the thread to be closed down because it was no longer "purely" hunting related - and the link I posted was a political blog.

But yes - hunting and politics must mix. I can only speak for myself, but I annoy my reps constantly - not just before the legislative session. Actually, I suspect that my rep on the Board of Supervisors is starting to avoid me in the grocery store! Hmmm... he still hasn't responded to my most recent email...

la gringa local - the apts. above stores which you refer to is now being called "workforce housing" by developers. It's another way to shove a butt ugly development through by saying, Look, we're offering low cost housing for teachers and firemen - aren't we wonderful! And yes, the most recent "workforce housing" caca doo doo did mention those professions by name.

I guess teachers and firefighters don't need to live in a nice home. They can just live above a liquor store or tattoo parlor. After all - they are just "workforce" and don't need a backyard for their dog, or a playset for their kids.

Don't get me started on this - I am in a lousy mood after reading the most recent report from the General Assembly. Yuck.

[La Gringa]

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[pook]

So, let me get the logic straight...We should just keep building houses until we run out of room because that is the only industry we have ???We should all become construction workers then and use up all our wood resources, land and water.
Flame suit on and armed !

[La Gringa]

No, of course not. That is a stupid statement. You are using resources everyday just like everyone else. You consume things that are bought from money that comes from this economy. If the building stops completely, be sure that everyone will suffer...

There are other materials to build out of rather than wood. Wood is a renewable resource as well... so you don't have a point there.

Everything we do and use has an impact in some way. Where do you think the metal comes from in your car, the wood for the furniture in your house..

I guess we could all give up everything and live in a cave. Sure that will work just fine...

Forget your nice barn, horse trailer and truck then... burning too much gas, using too much metal and wood. Hmmm.

[Elghund2]

Responsible development is the key.

If it were that easy. What is responsible development?

The reality is that developers want max development with no responsibility for the follow on cost it incurs.

Years ago it was suggested that developers pay a per house fee that would cover infrastucture costs that the house would incur. They all balked saying that that would put the house price out of range. Then they started building mcmansions and making record profits.

[pook]

Actually, your statements to me are a bit presumptious, as I am a very low impact consumer. Drive a 1992 Volvo (30 mpg), house was built in 1837(no new constuction ),have no kids that stress the public tax base,barn is very old also. I believe in making due with what we have and am not part of the "disposable mentality". As I have 2 degrees in both Agriculture and Environmental Policy I have a pretty good notion of what is renewable, sustainable, and what we should just leave alone.

[J Swan]

Sounds like you are new to the area and not fully aware of what Fauquier has been trying to prevent for the past 30 years. We just don't want to be "Fairfaxed". There's nothing wrong with that.

I remember Reston was supposed to be this wonderful, walkable community with high quality of life, lots of greenspace, really family oriented.......Manassas Park is another one, let's see - Clifton, parts of Fairfax County were supposed to be developed that way....

The "workforce housing" I mentioned was in a recent issue of the Fauquier Times-Democrat and was a quote by a developer on a controversial project in Bealeton. If it's BS then fine - but I didn't make it up. Try reading up on issues that face rural residents before posting.

I'm thrilled for you that you are a landscape architect. I was a conservation and legal professional working to protect the environment. So what. Big deal.

I don't care if the housing industry shuts down. It'll start back up again. It's cyclical. Did you care when the tech industry crashed? Do you care that your lovely landscape architecture is replacing old forests that could have been built around, introduces non native species that gov't spends millions to eradicate, or creates a totally artificial environment that will never be a functioning ecosystem? How about those stormwater retention ponds that everyone's so fond of-----ooops - there are so many of them that it's helped facilitate a change in the migration patterns of Canada Geese on the Atlantic flyway- now we have to shoot them because they're crapping all over someones lawn - which Chemlawn is happy to overfertilize and pollute groundwater...

There is always a different perspective, isn't there. And before you go postal - I am good friends with the employees of a local planning firm.

As far as village centers go - have you ever seen a village? A real one? That has evolved over time and has its own unique character? I doubt it. What you call village centers I call strip malls filled with tanning salons, quick eat pizzas, and small time franchises.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. If rural areas resist becoming urbanized, it's with good reason. We've seen what's happened to other counties.

If you truly love foxhunting and farms, then why do you support their extermination? You can't have it both ways, dear.

[pook]

J Swan -- YOU GO GIRL(or guy?) ! ROCK ON !

[x-rab]

JS is right. The Fairfax County Supervisors are in a blue funk because the developers around Tyson's want to build fewer, but more expensive houses. This means that there definitely won't be any housing that police, teachers and firemen can afford. The village center concept doesn't work because most people can't afford to live where they work or they change jobs or the job location changes on them. The developers are selling the idea because it means greater profits for them and lets face it folks, the developers own Virginia, they just let us live here.

Wateryglen, it would be nice if the McMansions were 20 feet apart. Look closely, most are 8 to 12 feet apart which means that if one catches on fire, they will all burn because that lovely plastic siding is highly flamable and there are no fire code standards for "single famiy" homes because it is assumed they are far enough apart to not spontaneously set each other on fire. LOL.

With the Dillons Rule, every time a locality does something to make or encourage developers to contribute to the infrastructure, the Big D's go to the GA and have it overturned. They got the lunie (sp) tunes board in Loundoun just long enought to vest all their projects. You can bet money they will pave Loudoun and soon.

[La Gringa]

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[wateryglen]

I agree with JS. ALL developments in NoVa are ugly, ugly and ugly. First thing they do is remove all the trees(big money profits here). And all of the developers abandon the nieghborhoods quickly and NONE of the "equestrian estates" have worked in this area. Villages haven't worked in NoVa either. It just becomes an excuse for higher density building areas. Look at Culpeper county! or Reston.
And although the building industry is a major source of employment (mostly working poor IMHO and NOT those buying McMansions! ) ; It's NOT a big player by the demographics. The largest employers are the Gov't, tech firms, gov't contractors and health care. How ironic that in the construction industry NONE of the workers have/get health insurance. Mostly no benefits with jobs in construction in NoVa.

[La Gringa]

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[xeroxchick]

There is a very sinple answer to sprawl - regentrification of blighted urban areas. Atlantic Station in Atlanta is a great example. An old steel plant was turned into a mixed use, upscale development. No trees had to be bulldozed, and no pastures ruined. Developers can develop and keep their "livelyhood." The tax base increases. Eyesores are made useful. People have desirable housing. Simple.
Fast growing pine is a renewable resource that doesn't support much wildlife. Old growth forrest is a very long term resource and cannot be replaced fast enough for wildlife and fragile plant systems.
Zoning isn't exactly the answer because many developers have a lot more money than county commissions and they hire big time lawyers to sue to overturn current zoning. Believe me, counties loose money on "rooftops" after they get through providing roads, schools, fire trucks, police, water and sewer, etc. They would much rather have industry, which is indeed vanishing.
Name calling just weakens your argument, Loca. You are assuming that we are a bunch of fanatacist tree-huggers, when in fact you don't know who we are at all. It seems that many of us have a very good idea of this turn in development trends and decline to accept it.

[SaddleFitterVA]

This topic is getting hot with you guys, and has strayed a bit.

First thing to realize for ALL, is that low-density housing wipes out farmland the fastest.

Now, get over the notion that everyone has to live in a SF home with a large yard, to be landscaped with invasive, non-native ornamentals http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

The region IS growing fast. There are housing needs.

Oh, and please, please remember that suburbs and housing do not pay in taxes what they use in services. So, you need to make sure to include business uses, since those provide a much higher return in taxes for the local government who is expected to provide the services, schools, snow removal, trash, etc.

For an example of cutting off your nose to spite your face, go to Leesburg, where Centex homes was trying to put in 1300 homes on 212 acres, including some commercial space, multifamily housing, townhouses and SF homes. That had people screaming about "traffic, congestion, too dense" and oh, NOBODY wants multifamily housing in THEIR neighborhood, especially not in their neighborhood of 6000+ sq ft homes on 3-10 acre lots. So, Centex tried again, taking out the MF housing, and dropping it to something like 1100 homes, scaled back the business uses and tried again. Still, a huge outcry. Oh, did I forget to mention this took over 2 years of wrangling with paperwork, zoning, planning commission, etc.

So, now...Centex is bulding 192 homes on that 212 or so acres, "by right" development, no zoning applications to go through, no screwing around with the county gov't, the planning commission, etc. Now, do the math. There would have been housing 1100 families in the scaled back version, now less than 200 families. What about the 900 families that would have bought these places? Where do you think they will be looking? Oh, wait, Winchester is allowing development like mad, Jefferson County, WV, Warrenton...and guess what, the traffic is still there.

Oh, and the 212 acres, developed. Done, finished. Not open space, not foxhuntable, not even suitable for trail riding anymore.

Why are so many of you adamantly opposed to high density development? Just because YOU live on a farm does not mean that YOUR lifestyle is right for everyone. What is wrong with townhouses or closely spaced housing? I'm sure there are many people who would rather live without massive amounts of yard to take care of.

While the logic of "we have to keep building to support the economy" is quite flawed, we DO have to provide housing for workers in a growing economy. All workers, all professions are the same, they all need a place to live.

You cannot simply say NO development, not in a growing economy, it is irrational and unlikely to happen. You cannot sit there and shoot down every alternative development plan that people come up with.

And you might want to rethink your scoffing at various forms of high-density housing. If I ever got out of horses, I'd be ALL over living in the city.

Mel

[SaddleFitterVA]

Back to a topic closer to the original....Loudoun County and the Equine Industry....can they co-exist?

In the REDC meeting, we discussed what it would take to change some of the things. They are zoning changes in Loudoun and realistically, it will take 4-5 YEARS to get the sort of changes we are discussing put through.

In Loudoun County, you can see the results of an extremely reactionary population. The zoning pendulum has no middle ground, it swings from one extreme to another because too many people refuse to see the BIG picture. They see THEIR way of life and think everyone should have that way of life. Suburban moms don't understand why some rich landowner should get paid to sell the development rights, and all those rich landowners are just trying to keep the riffraf (Oh yes, that would be the suburban moms) OUT.

I love open space, farms and riding. I also recognize that I am in a minority. Not many people ride. It is going to take a lot more constructive discussion and willingness to open your eyes and compromise at times to find a plan that can work.

While it may be too little too late, the REDC is going to focus on the needs of the Equine Industry in Loudoun County. We are planning on producing a white paper that explains the benefits to the economy, proposes ways to integrate housing growth with horse farms and riding trails, and hopefully come up with a plan that will allow the horse portion of the rural economy to peacefully co-exist with the suburban encroachment.

I need to find a representative from various businesses and organizations that would be willing to speak to us, and let us know what they feel is important, problems, what they need for their club or business to survive.

Foxhunts are definitely one of the groups that I'd love to find a representative to speak with.

[La Gringa]

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[La Gringa]

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[J Swan]

Would you please stop changing your bb name every 5 minutes? It gets confusing.

One thing I have NEVER been called is a tree hugger. Unless lugging a rifle up a decrepit ladder to get into my deer stand dressed in camo counts. I've been called lots of other things though.

A person can be sensitive to the needs of rural residents and desire to keep a rural lifestyle and not be anti-growth. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say we're shooting down all sorts of proposals. No one said anything about that. You need to remove the chip off your shoulder, dear. No one is going to take your job away from you. No one called you a Latino worker (shame on you) no one is out to get you.

I do hope Loudoun County does save some open space that is not filled with soccer fields. And if Mel gets out of horses, I hope she finds a fantastic condo close to the Metro. Nothing wrong with high density, or multi-family housing, brownfield development, or regentrification of blighted areas. I've lived in the city and absolutely loved it.

However, those needs must be balanced against the views of people who do not wish to live in such an environment. There are entire communities of people who get along just fine without a high speed connection and a Starbucks on every corner. That lifestyle is just as valuable and precious as an urban one.

If you enjoy foxhunting and the countryside, you must realize that the people who make that possible for you are the very people you are badmouthing on this BB. We're the landowners. We're the ones that allow hunts to build coops across our pastures. We're the ones who maintain those lovely farm structures you see as you drive down the road. We're the ones who take care of the land and preserve it so that hunts have quarry they can chase.

So my dear, you may want to stop pissing us off.

[La Gringa]

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[J Swan]

Yes - change your name all you want - just remember that it gets confusing for the rest of us.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to discuss land use (and hunting) without touching on politics at some point. At least in Virginia. When you think a thread is inappropriate, I think what folks do is contact the moderators and ask that the thread be closed or something. I've never done it so I'm not sure.

Folks who love foxhunting generally appreciate country life even if they live in an urban area. Cooky McClung once wrote a satirical story about what foxhunting would be like in the not so distant future. When I look around me, I realize that story isn't funny anymore.

[J Swan]

Oh - you edited your post as I was replying to it. Let's see:
Uh - did I say I was better than anyone else because I own land? Who cares. I also own a piece of the Berlin Wall. So what.
Uh - did I denigrate your profession in any way? That will come as a shock to my good friend who is a landscape architect - as well as the individual I hired to create a site plan.

You'll recall you called me a tree hugger with some personal agenda. Which actually was rather bizarre. So puleeze - just knock it off with the persecution complex.

Mel started this thread to try and get some support from foxhunters in the Piedmont- I'm the one who suggested she post here. I think what she's doing is fantastic - she's participating in local government. By suggesting that we all have to bend over and take whatever developers give us does not help her cause.

The equine industry is also a viable industry in this Commonwealth. From racing, to hunting, to show venues, to all riding disciplines, to Olympic athletes, it's all here in Virginia. The hay, tack, boarding - all of that is part of a multi-million dollar industry as well. Loudoun and Fauquier are among the TOP producers in the Commonwealth.

That industry requires land. Land to board, land to compete, land to grow hay and feed, land to mill feed, - land.

The interests of the equine industry and other agriculture are JUST as legitimate as the building industry.

Hope you like your new boarding facility. Until recently it was going to be demolished to make way for a new high school.

[J Swan]

Here's some info that Mel and others might find of interest - this information is from the Virginia Horse Industry 2001 survey (the most recent) If Ag numbers are included the figures will be much higher - the survey was a sampling of horse owners.

Top 5 Counties with highest number of horses
Loudoun
Fauquier
Albemarle
Augusta
Bedford

Equine Expenditures
60,878,000 Equipment purchases
57,404,000 Paid labor
55,185,000 Feed and Bedding
50,391,000 Equine purchases
35,679,000 Capital Improvements
Total - $505,786,000

95% of respondents travel to equine events. 42% stayed overnight in the area. 78% of those out of state residents stayed one or more nights in Virginia at paid accomodations.

The industry also generatetd direct wages and salaries of 55.8 millions which created an impact of 87.2 million.

Of 800$million, 303.5 million was generated by purchases for the support and maintenance of equines.

274$ million by attendees at equine events, and 31 million by pari-mutel operations.

Equine Inventory and Value by District - we're at the top
Northern - 60,500 horses for a total value of $795,090,000.

Equine Operations by District - again we're at the top.
Northern - 8,800.

The value of all equines in Virginia in 2001 was 1.46 billion or $8,599 per equine.

Sales place equine as Virginia 7th largest agricultural commodity based on cash receipts.
MORE THAN 60% OF THE TOTAL SALES VALUE OCCURRED IN THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF THE STATE.

please note that these figures do not include other agricultural operations, including those that indirectly contribute to the equine industry. So the dollar figures for all ag operations are actually much much higher.

[SaddleFitterVA]

J Swan,

Thanks for those statistics. If you have the link handy, would you mind sending it to me? I need to cite sources.

I have to run off and do Lacrosse Mom duty tonight, so I'll have to write up more later.

Mel

[J Swan]

You're welcome, Mel.

You know that free directory that you can pick up free every year? That's where I got it. Perhaps you can read it at www.virginiahorse.com (http://www.virginiahorse.com). But if you can get ahold of that directory - the highlights of the study are in there.

It does say that you can get the entire study by sending 35.58 to

Virginia Equine Educational Foundation
208 Stonehouse Road
Williamsburg, VA 23188

pattistc@cox.net is also listed as a contact person.

I think you can get what you need by just reading the highlights in the free directory.

But don't forget to contact your extension agent as well. They keep great numbers on all types of ag operations and $ brought in too. The main site is vt.edu - you can find your local office there, or also get great info from the site.

Hope this helps. Best of luck. I don't know what kind of help I can offer except to spout off numbers from studies or point you to places to look.

Keep us posted on developments (pun intended!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[pook]

Thank you again, JSwan for pointing out the economic contributions the equine industry affords our communities.

[Elghund2]

The problem with high density development is that it drives up taxes even faster than large lot development. Increasing taxes are the biggest threat to farm land. Our taxes increased over 20% for eight straight years.

[La Gringa]

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[La Gringa]

I removed all my previous messages related to this out of respect to Jessica. I no longer wish to engage this.

[J Swan]

You shouldn't have. It's a free country and you are entitled to say anything you want. Never censor yourself.

[J Swan]

go the distance - thanks so much for the update. Do you know if the OPRC has been contacted? Or Trailblazers? I have some friends that belong to those groups and I'd be happy to pass this along.

Let's see - other groups I can think of is PEC, the Equestrian Land Conservation Resource, Southern Environmental Law Center, the Virginia chapter of The Nature Conservancy in Charlottesvillle (although TNC has become one of those mega charities that really is just into perpetuating itself)- um that's all that comes to mind at the moment. These groups may not be exactly the audience you're trying to reach - but they do have free resources and literature that may be of benefit.

oh - don't forget the American Farmland Trust and the Virginia Farm Bureau. They also advocate for rural issues. Let me know if you need numbers for any of these folks.

[La Gringa]

Originally posted by J Swan:
You shouldn't have. It's a free country and you are entitled to say anything you want. Never censor yourself.

I just want you to know that I apologize for anything you took personally. I am just sensitive to this, because it's how I make my living. Like you, I don't want to see all the land eaten up. I want to do what is responsible. I can't be responible myself for the land greedy developers... really I am just like the construction worker, that works to provide services, planning, and design to the industry.

In the end the people that have the most power to stop this is the landowner. If they sell to the developers, they are contributing to it. Of course the zoning helps to slow it, but if the land developers don't have the land to develop then they can't build. That's why putting the land into conservation easements, protected by law is a great way to preserve the open space. I have noticed a lot of land around the Plains, Middleburg, and similar beautiful areas are really starting to do this.

I know about the school that was proposed on Mt Sterling. It actually wouldn't have destroyed the whole farm, just part of it would have been used. The site is now on the old Lundsford Property off of Rouges Rd, even if it even gets approved. That site has wetland issues that are causing a big stir.

The building is going up too fast, I feel it to. I hate what has happened in Gainesville and Haymarket. I don't want that in my neighborhood either. There has to be a middle ground someplace where people can work and make a living without destroying everything.

I certainly don't have all the answers.

[CC]

I just want to wish good luck and success everyone working to preverve the rural lifestyle of your area. We are fighting the same battle in MD. It's just build, build, build with no thought as to the ramifications of that building. I belonged to a small foxhunting club that disbanded because the land we hunted was sold for development. We knew for years it was going to be developed but it didn't make that last hunt any cheerier.

My family's farm was downzoned in the last zoning change in my area. We welcomed it and in fact, there were 12,000 acres downzoned and not much opposition to it. So it is nice to see that there are still some who want to keep the rural areas rural.

[J Swan]

For those landowners who are not able to place their land in easement, there are other options that not only preserve the land, but in some cases can offer tax savings during your lifetime as well as pass assets to beneficiaries tax free.

Please consider a Purchase of Development Rights option. (Fauquier County has one - check your jurisdiction)

Also consider tax savings vehicles such as Charitable Remainder Trusts. Such estate planning options can include real estate. Large charities such as AFT can provide the documents for you - you consult your own attorney.

Another option is a life estate - which can be combined with other estate planning tools which allow the present owner to remain in the home until death - then the property can pass to an entity that will protect it in some fashion (it has to be consistent with their mission - so check into conservation charities such as PEC, AFT, or other conservation entities).

For many farmers, the only asset they have is their land. They work their butts off all their lives, and when they are no longer able to work - the only way to survive is to sell the land. However - it does not have to be that way. It is possible for a landowner to protect their land, pass it along to a young farmer through American Farmland Trust, and still be able to enjoy financial stability in their old age.

So please - if you own land - check into the many options available.

[Elghund2]

Leesburg2day article (http://www.leesburg2day.com/current.cfm?catid=21&newsid=11652)

According to this article the support at the meeting was for the A3 zoning.

[Elghund2]

Good luck. You'll need to watch this board. Back in the late 80's when everything in the county was A-3 the board would routinely grant rezonings to higher densities. effectively rezoning the county. You'll have to be ready to fight this. Those developers didn't pay millions for nothing.

[xeroxchick]

Why can't we introduce some sort of tax incentive to get developers to build in big box abandonment? If your community is like mine, the local WalMart wants a bigger venue so it builds an even bigger box further outside of town and leaves the old one. The old KMart is abandoned, the old Belks, etc. Is there really that much difference in the cost of bulldozing trees and pasture and bulldozing an eyesore? Maybe no income from selling the timber, but that's where the tax incentive would come in. The rural ammenities (horses, land) would be left alone and the ugly eyesores would be removed and improved. I bet the land would be cheap, closer to town and look great after landscaping.

[La Gringa]

Personally I would like to see Walmart vanish for good everywhere, they don't care about anything but making billions of dollars, no matter what the cost to the people around them.

Maybe we should rethink our consuming of products etc, as well to help reduce Walmartism.

I hate that place. JMO