U.S. Show Jumping Olympic Team Confirmed - Engle Claims The Selection Committee Wasn’ [Archive]

Coreene

May. 25, 2004, 03:25 PM

From COTH, June 25, 1999:

IN THE COUNTRY
PLASTIC CHIPS GET WARD KICKED OUT OF AACHEN

McLain Ward had been aiming his horses for the prestigious and lucrative CHIO Aachen (Germany) all spring long, but officials there banished him from the grounds just after the show got underway on Tuesday, June 15. The U.S. team, on which Ward was supposed to ride, finished a well-beaten fifth in the Nations Cup.

Immediately following his ride in a Tuesday class, FEI officials examined Ward’s horse Beneton and saw plastic chips fall from the galloping boots when they were removed. Officials believed the chips were present to cause pain if the horse hit a rail and encourage him to jump higher. Veterinary delegates confirmed that Beneton had not been injured.

The board of the Aachen-Laurensberger Rennverein, the organizers of the Aachen show, decided on Wednesday, June 16, to withdraw Ward’s accreditation and immediately banished him from the grounds.

Ward denied any knowledge of the plastic chips to both the Ground Jury and the FEI Appeal Committee. But FEI rules explicitly make riders responsible for their horses and all equipment.

A press release stated, "The ALRV decided to undertake everything possible to prevent the rider McLain Ward from competing in Aachen and from setting foot on the Aachen show grounds again. The ALRV will do everything within its authority to make sure that this will be guaranteed." Ward received only a minor penalty for a similar infraction at the CSI Gothenburg (Sweden), held during the FEI World Cup Finals on April 22-25.

Linda Allen, the technical delegate there, said that official reports state that "Ward went behind one of the large, padded posts in the warm-up area and had the hind boots removed from his horse by someone who disappeared at the far end of the building. (FEI Steward Hans Wiklund signed the report as witness to this.) But then McLain claimed to Elisabeth Heber, the chief steward, that the horse had not had hind boots on. In the subsequent hearing, McLain was found by the Jury of Appeal to be guilty of obstructing the control of the hind boots, was disqualified from the class, and assessed a $312 fine."

Ward’s teammates expressed their disappointment but refused to comment specifically on the Aachen situation. An Aachen press release quoted Anne Kursinski, acting as a spokesman for the American team, as saying, "We categorically disassociate ourselves from McLain Ward and his way of dealing with horses." But she denied having made this statement in a subsequent interview.

USET Chef d’Equipe Frank Chapot adamantly refused to comment on the situation. When asked if he thought Ward’s punishment appropriate, he said, "I don’t know yet if it’s the right decision. We must wait for the final decision of the jury. It’s not up to the media to decide this case."

Kate Jackson, the American Horse Shows Association secretary general, has begun an investigation to determine if the AHSA should take action.

AHSA President Alan Balch said AHSA officials would not specifically comment on the case at this time. But an official AHSA statement said, "A serious infraction of the rules of the international federation can result in disciplinary action also being undertaken pursuant to AHSA rules. The AHSA’s reciprocity rules provide another basis for possible charges of rule violation before the AHSA’s Hearing Committee."

Jackson will contact witnesses, Chapot and Ward, who has returned to the United States, before making her report.

Melzy

May. 25, 2004, 03:25 PM

CONGRATULATIONS to our newest Olympic Team Members. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Gold wishes are being sent from Maryland. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

hideyourheart03

May. 25, 2004, 04:16 PM

CONGRATS Olympic team members!

mnolen9698

May. 25, 2004, 04:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
So how's McLain gonna compete at Aachen? Last time Aachen spoke about him, they said he was banned from there for life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder the same thing. In fact, I thought he wouldn't make the team for that specific reason. Maybe he's learned from his mistakes and won't embarass his country again. (I know I've grown up a lot and learned from my mistakes over the past 5 years.) He rides too well to behave otherwise and he is an asset to the team and the USA. Good luck to all!

Tackpud

May. 26, 2004, 06:00 AM

What an awesome team!!! Congratulations to all those who work with these horses and riders. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Can we start another thread about McLain so this can stay on topic and offer congratulations to our Olympic team - please!

VivaDusty

May. 26, 2004, 08:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tollriffic:
Thats going to be a fabolous team http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DITTO! Congrats! and Good Luck, and wouldnt Greece just be the best place to go for the Olympics?

nycjumper

May. 26, 2004, 08:50 AM

Congrats to the team http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

SBT

May. 26, 2004, 12:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Melinda:
The U.S. Equestrian Federation Selection Committee—Ray Texel, Lisa Jacquin and Michael Endicott—decided in a meeting this afternoon (May 25) to deny Margie Engle’s bye application for the 2004 Olympic team in Athens, Greece.

***Engle Claims The Selection Committee Wasn’t Honest With Her*** see Breaking News at http://www.chronofhorse.com/breaking_news/04/bn_may26.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Personally, I would have thought Margie would be a lot more gracious about this. *I* saw it coming a mile away; why couldn't she? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif As for Perin's owner threatening to sell all his horses and get out of the business? Way to act like a two-year-old. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I mean, they have every right to be disappointed, but they act as though this decision came out of left field. I don't think it did. Margie is injured. YES, she had a clear round in Trial 1; so did a lot of other riders who went on to bomb out in 4 and 5. YES, Perin is a superhorse; but so are Sapphire, Royal Kaliber, Fein Cera, Authentic, Casanova, and Clasiko. And their riders completed the trials and are in fine physical shape.

I don't see how any other decision could have been made. To name Margie to the team on a conditional basis and "wait it out" to see how she'd do in Germany would be completely unfair to the rider(s) waiting in the wings, not knowing if they're going to the Olympics or staying home, and not getting the chance to prepare their horse(s) by showing in Europe.

It was my understanding that the only way Margie would have gotten the bye was if an extremely green horse/rider combo made the short list. That did not happen. So it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a bye was not given.

Now, on to McLain. I do feel for him, as it seems controversy follows him wherever he goes. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif We're wondering if he'll be allowed to compete at Aachen. I'm also wondering if his father will be allowed to watch him at the Olympics. I'm assuming so, as the Olympics do not fall under the jurisdiction of the USEF. Criminal record or not, I can't imagine any governing body would refuse to allow a father to watch his son compete in the Olympics. But perhaps someone else has more information on this than I do? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Finally, my sincerest congratulations to everyone on the Team: Chris, Beezie, Peter, McLain, Alison, and Lauren, you and your horses are the greatest gold-medal hope US showjumping has had in a very long time. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I know you will do us proud. Best of luck to you in Germany, and then Athens!

lauriep

May. 26, 2004, 12:30 PM

I don't see where it says he was banned for life from Aachen. It says he was asked to leave, but after he served his suspension, and was in good standing with our federation, doesn't the FEI honor the national federation standing?

As far as Barney, I don't know how they could/would identify him in a foreign country with thousands of spectators at the events. Even if the FEI were to take issue with his attendance.

The crazy thing about the byes, IMO, is that they can only replace the 3rd and 4th place riders, not the alternate, with a bye! Chris already has the 4th spot with his bye, so only McLain could be affected. The alternate position is secure. I don't understand why, once the trials are over, that there are any designated "spots" numerically. Any/all of the riders should be subject to replacement with a stronger team, if performance merits it. And certainly, the alternate should be vulnerable. But to tell the 3rd place rider that, after subjecting his horse to that grueling a test, which broke at least two horses, that they were being replaced, would be wrong. If they were going to do it, they should have done it after the first trial, so that everyone knew up front that they were riding for x number of places.

SoEasy

May. 26, 2004, 12:52 PM

I think the ban from Aachen is from the owners/organizers, not the FEI or other governing body.
I'm hazy on this, but it seems to me that Spruce Meadows owners have also banned a BNR from their facility. Or am I out in left field on that one?

Jaysee

May. 26, 2004, 12:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
From COTH, June 25, 1999:
"The ALRV decided to undertake everything possible to prevent the rider McLain Ward from competing in Aachen and from setting foot on the Aachen show grounds again. The ALRV will do everything within its authority to make sure that this will be guaranteed." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds as if the ALRV means banishment forever (a mighty long time).

Coreene

May. 26, 2004, 01:02 PM

In Milan, after the announcer made a potshot at him re "See you in Aachen," and all the Germans there minus one were in stitches about it, it was splained to some people that the ban was still it place. Unless Aachen-Laurensberger Rennverein has changed their mind.

frenchie

May. 26, 2004, 01:26 PM

SBT

THANK YOU !!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

YOU HAVE SAID EXACTLY WHAT SHOULD BE SAID AND YOU SAID IT PERFECTLY http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MERCI

AND BEST OF LUCK TO A GRAT TEAM

Portia

May. 26, 2004, 01:33 PM

What might be more of an issue with Barney Ward travelling to Athens is his status as a convicted felon. I don't know how strict Greece is about its visa/entry requirements, but countries can and frequently do bar entry to convicted felons who are nationals of other countries.

As for MGE, well, it was terribly bad luck for her. But really, what if the shoe was on the other foot? If she had gone all the way through the trials and been that 3rd or 4th member of the team, and then the selectors had removed her to give a bye to some other great rider who also had a great horse but who happened to be injured, in hopes that the other great rider might recover in time, does anyone doubt that she would have screamed bloody murder and filed a grievance quicker than you could say "USOC"?

Coreene

May. 26, 2004, 01:37 PM

Fingers crossed that we repeat the 1984 success!

SBT

May. 26, 2004, 01:42 PM

frenchie, c'etait mon plaisir. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Palisades

May. 26, 2004, 02:18 PM

It sounds like she's less upset about not being given the bye and more upset that the selection committee reneged on what she thought was a promise. It's possible that she wouldn't have pushed herself to compete in the trials, knowing she wasn't ready, if they hadn't told her she could have the bye if she completed even one round. I don't think she should be given a spot on the team, all things considered, but I can understand why she would be upset if things happened as she said they did.

SGray

May. 26, 2004, 02:55 PM

what Palisades said

DMK

May. 26, 2004, 03:10 PM

I agree with Palisades. The whole tone of her comments is that she was led to believe something else. I don't think for a moment she insinuated she should be on the team if she and Perin weren't 100% ready. But if the selectors sent mixed messages to her, or didn't effectively communicate their true intentions or just flat out wouldn't say to her face that they really weren't going to consider her, then they should be called on it.

All the rest of us professional people damn sure know WE would be called on the carpet to explain ourselves if we had been accused of miscommunicating along those lines. And let's face it, if what she said is true and she didn't let people know what happened, exactly what degree of accountability do you think there might have been on this matter?

SBT - you might have seen it coming a mile away, but by Frank Chapot's own comments in print right up to and into the trials, he was less possessed of such vision.

LEP Enterprises, LLC

May. 26, 2004, 03:25 PM

I feel bad for her. I bet she would have tried to compete through the trials if she knew the bye wasn't hers.

Edited to add: But I still think we have a fantastic crew going to the Olympics and I'm very excited. I just wonder whether MGE would have kept going, despite the pain, if she wasn't being led to believe she had the spot.

mnolen9698

May. 26, 2004, 04:08 PM

So I just though of something with all this...

If you had to choose b/w (a) MGE taking Perin to Aachen and seeing how they do (can replace w/alternate) or (b) M Ward skipping Aachen (due to ban) and going straight to the games, what would you choose?

My gut goes with (a) MGE.

Another thought/clarification: Doesn't the IOC or some other committee have to approve our team (i.e., the team isn't a done deal)?

I'm genuinely seeking clarity on these questions. I'd melt to let either MGE or Ward ride my baby.

horsense

May. 26, 2004, 04:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
I don't see where it says he was banned for life from Aachen. It says he was asked to leave, but after he served his suspension, and was in good standing with our federation, doesn't the FEI honor the national federation standing?

As far as Barney, I don't know how they could/would identify him in a foreign country with thousands of spectators at the events. Even if the FEI were to take issue with his attendance.

The crazy thing about the byes, IMO, is that they can only replace the 3rd and 4th place riders, not the alternate, with a bye! Chris already has the 4th spot with his bye, so only McLain could be affected. The alternate position is secure. I don't understand why, once the trials are over, that there are any designated "spots" numerically. Any/all of the riders should be subject to replacement with a stronger team, if performance merits it. And certainly, the alternate should be vulnerable. But to tell the 3rd place rider that, after subjecting his horse to that grueling a test, which broke at least two horses, that they were being replaced, would be wrong. If they were going to do it, they should have done it after the first trial, so that everyone knew up front that they were riding for x number of places. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldnt agree with you more, Lauriep! Your thoughts are very well written and it is my understanding that Margie, in fact, expressed the same concerns to the committee prior to the first round of the trials. As far as giving the bye, the precedent was set last year at the Pan Am trials after Lauren Hough broke her collar bone prior to those trials. All riders were kept informed of the status of the bye after the 2nd round. Therfore, there were no surprises or disappointments at the end of the trials.

And in response to SBT, How gracious would you be if you had been told to your face to trust them that they (the selectors)would take care of you because of the fact that she and Perin have by far the strongest and most consistent record, i.e. Previous Olympic trials, 2003 Pan Am trials, AGA Champ. I need not go on but I will with just one more to remind you of the medal in the Pan Am games which is the only reason that we are even going to the 2004 Olympics!

As far as the people "waiting in the wings" even if Margie had gotten the bye the additional two combinations would have been taken to show in Europe. This would have allowed them to stay on top of their game in preparation for the Olympics should Margie have not been up to par. And with her apparent progress I do expect her to be up to par. So, do we want the strongest team now or the strongest team 3 months from now?

May. 26, 2004, 05:44 PM

The selectors had a tough job. The team looks great, and the selectors should be commended.

canyonoak

May. 26, 2004, 06:13 PM

welllll (Jack Benny ipersonation for those old enough..)

why can't they just take one more horse/rider to Europe?

why can't they take SIX to Europe and see how the SIX do in competition and pick the Athens team from the SIX...?

MGE is not just any other professional...she has proven international experience and ditto the horse, Perin.

Why can't the selection procedures grow up and become adult, ,useful, flexible, etc etc..

Surely, USET and the rest of them can grow up a bit now...?

You know: actually want the best team we can select to actually compete...?

not trying to stir the pot..just wondering...

Mardi

May. 26, 2004, 06:32 PM

My favorite part is what Margie is quoted as saying : "I can't believe that with all the ways they manipulate the rules, that they couldn't find a way [to get her on the team]."

I'm surprised to know that she would've liked being chosen by a committee that "manipulate the rules" in order to get her on the team.

She doesn't really mean that (does she ?) I'd think she'd be relieved that she wasn't chosen if that's how she thinks they operate.

nutmeg

May. 26, 2004, 06:35 PM

Canyonoak, you prankster! The scenario you describe (send six to Europe) would be an exact replay of what happened in 1990 that opened the whole objective/subjective can of selection worms.

DMK

May. 26, 2004, 06:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mardi:
My favorite part is what Margie is quoted as saying : "I can't believe that with all the ways they manipulate the rules, that they couldn't find a way [to get her on the team]."

I'm surprised to know that she would've liked being chosen by a committee that "manipulate the rules" in order to get her on the team.

She doesn't really mean that (does she ?) I'd think she'd be _relieved_ that she wasn't chosen if that's how she thinks they operate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh hell, Mardi, I can't believe that 5 Supreme Court justices voted the way they did, but I just accept that this is the way of the world, and to quote a friend, just "buck up little beaver" and get on with living life in the world we are stuck in. Pretty much the way the rest of us do. MGE too, I suspect.

Carol Ames

May. 26, 2004, 06:52 PM

Didn' this , McClain being caught wih "illegal equipment," happen once before?

canyonoak

May. 26, 2004, 07:07 PM

<<Canyonoak, you prankster! The scenario you describe (send six to Europe) would be an exact replay of what happened in 1990 that opened the whole objective/subjective can of selection worms. >>

But this is the NEW, IMPROVED, all for one and one for all USE....T, F, alphabet soup.

We're bigger, better, stronger, maturer, more enlightened, more seriously interested in fielding the best gosh-darn team we can!

So there will be no piddling lawsuits..instead, all the riders and selectors can sit down to a nice, home-cooked potluck dinner, and rationally discuss what's the best way to ensure we have the strongest team for Athens.

Seriously...there has never been a better time for the selectors and the powers-that-be to truly start creating a solid selection process.

Gosh--they look at Europe for the horses, for the experience,for everything else--why cant they look at the far far better selection procedures?

Of course, I'd like to start by not having the trials, which I feel are a waste of horseflesh...
OTOH, must add public thanks to RJ Brandes and Robert Ridland for the INCREDIBLE job they did and continue to do...what a facility! what organization! what commitment!

khobstetter

May. 26, 2004, 07:40 PM

Hey horsence...

Saw your posts on TH's also...you just got on the BB's so you must have signed on for this specific subject alone. You speak as someone who was AT the meetings WITH the Selection Committee and you state conversations as FACT as though you were there...maybe you were...

But for heaven's sake there..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> As far as giving the bye, the precedent was set last year at the Pan Am trials after Lauren Hough broke her collar bone prior to those trials. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Comparing a broken collar bone to the disasterous horrible hip injury and surgery Margie had is just plain silly and nonsenseical for heaven's sake....GEEZ!!!!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So, do we want the strongest team now or the strongest team 3 months from now? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Count the time, it is just over 9 weeks to the Olympics...NOT 3 months !!!! We are at the end of May, we only have June and July left as the Trials are the second week in August. Hopefully she would ride before the Games. 3 months would put us into September...NOPE it's all over by then!!!!!!

We want the strongest Team at Athens....there is just NO WAY Margie can be at the TOP TOP TOP TOP of her game then...I watched her walk the course for Round 1 and I watched her ride it...

I am a fan of Margie's so when I say this PLEASE give me some credit....Margie was obviously in pain, terrific pain just walking the course...Perin packed her tail over all the jumps, one bad distance after another, and was a super horse for the Round...

If Margie had been pain free just before Round 1 I might feel different BUT she was not...she hobbled and limped around the course walk...she was FAR from healed at all.....she needs another 6 months at least to get over a terrible injury.

But with the injury, Margie still can not be at the TOP TOP of her game for Athens....

IF she rode the show in Europe the middle of June, that is only 2 1/2 weeks away...NOT 3 MONTHS as you keep pointing out...so say she missed that one..then she would have to be ready in 5 weeks for the middle of July for that one....TOUGH CHANCE FOR THAT EITHER.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to follow your reasoning...she could miss those 2 BIG shows so she could heal better...then she would be rusty and NOT at the TOP TOP of her game for the Olympics...a TOP competition. OR SHE WOULD RIDE THOSE SHOWS... and not give her body a chance to heal...a lose lose for all of us, mostly Margie's future...

I for one do not want to spend the Federations funding on a rider who is either "patched together" or rusty....I think our other riders and our other owners deserve more..

AND ONE LAST NOTE.....Margie is a scrappy little begger for sure....if she were on the other side she would also be a bit "testy" to have a "lame duck" on a Team she wanted to go for the Gold with...she would fuss harder than she is now.

IMHO if you do know Margie as well as your posts proclaim...give her a little advice...BE GRACIUOS FOR GOSH SAKE, THE WORLD IS WATCHING YOU FIGHT A SILLY SILLY .BATTLE...SHE IS A "LAME DUCK" RIGHT NOW...sorry but she is.

She has more class than to blast everyone like she is doing, over a ride she should not have...IMHO!!!

M. O'Connor

May. 26, 2004, 08:02 PM

Just put a change of perspective on this topic...if the situation were reversed (in the vertical sense of the word) and the injury was to a horse, and not a rider...would we be thinking of pushing the envelope here for the sake of competition, rationalizing such a decision by saying that the rider can make up in accuracy what the horse lacks in sharpness? The answer is no, it simply would not be justifiable or prudent for the sake of the well being of the injured athlete to walk a tightrope in this situation. That doesn't make it any easier to sit things out, but it's really the only sensible thing to do.

millie

May. 26, 2004, 08:04 PM

I think the selection team got it right. It's a shame that each selection trial there's always one or two that have to speak out on how they've been cheated out of a spot.

aahunterjumper

May. 26, 2004, 08:27 PM

This year, we could field two good, competitive show jumping teams. In a leaner year, MGE would probably have had the bye. But this isn't one of those years. I think the selection criteria regarding a bye is convoluted.

From the press release, it appears MGE's concern is with statements/inferences the selectors made or didn't make to her. That disturbs me most of all. I remember the debacle of the 1990 selections when a rider was named to the team, then off the team, then back on. That was cruel. These are people, not chess pieces.

I am glad the selectors are standing behind the the selection criteria. I'm sorry MGE won't be on the team this year. I do think the selection criteria needs another re-write.

Madame Butterfly

May. 26, 2004, 08:50 PM

"Scrappy little begger.." did someone say? I have seen people sue for less. Be careful of judging words when you have not heard them first hand. We have all been in situations where we have been promised things (of course, not written down..) and, oh my god, they never panned out. In this respect, aahunterjumper is correct, as to MGE's concern. Did it happen? Did it not happen? The most important thing is that it not happen again. Right now, I am very concerned as to the safety of the riders. On the telie tonight I viewed a program which discussed how far behind the builders are in building the competition areas in Athens. One very important statement was made,,,,"that there could be a brownout..." That, my friends, also concerns me, when our riders and the riders of other nations are going over huge jumps....I think it is very important that MGE said what she did. In judging comments that one has not heard first-hand, one must say...has she ever been dishonest in her comments before...Think hard on this first issue...when we become members of the horsey clique, we become afraid to speak against what the "bigs" say...to often we become like Stepford wives. Having said this, it is now time to move forward and make sure that our riders are safe.

khobstetter

May. 26, 2004, 09:23 PM

My term is meant as a compliment...sorry if it came across otherwise.

Margie has come up through the ranks with lots of obstacles in her way....she is determined, strong, decisive and EXTREMELY focused in where she wants to go.

I applaud her and stand in awe...she is soooooooooo inspirational to all of our young riders who don't have bizillions of dollars for this show industry. SHE is one of the examples I use for my dozens of Juniors coming up through the ranks.....but right now I am having to "explain" to those same kids why she is gripping.

Her tenacity and ability to bounce back is sooooooooooooo amazing...that is "scrappy" to me....someone who can just keep bounding along in spite of stuff in your way...

That said......I still think we have a super Team and all the rethoric just takes away from a wonderful opportunity to go Gold.

Margie would not want that if SHE was on the Team........fate dealt a tough hand, not the Selectors!!!!

DMK

May. 27, 2004, 04:15 AM

Speaking of those who act as if they are eternally in the know...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
...there is just NO WAY Margie can be at the _TOP TOP TOP TOP_ of her game then...I watched her walk the course for Round 1 and I watched her ride it...

.....she needs another 6 months at least to get over a terrible injury.

But with the injury, Margie still can not be at the _TOP TOP_ of her game for Athens... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, how is it that you know these things? Were Medical Record confidentiality rules waived just for you? Did either the person in question or the supervising physician tell you these things? Because quite frankly, even if you were an MD I doubt you would have the knowledge (based on the public record) to state such things unequivocally. Of course if you were an MD, you'd probably know that...

You might think that she won't be ready, horsense might think otherwise. It's all just an opinion unless either of you have some inside medical knowledge.

On the other hand, as far as I know, horsense hasn't announced to all and sundry that a horse needed to be be put down at Indio as a result of an injury sustained in a GP (much to the surprise of the alive and healthy horse and rider, Im sure).

Pony Fan

May. 27, 2004, 06:39 AM

My solution...

Why not do what they did in the "ancient times" when I got first got involved in this sport and let the owner of Perrin "donate" him to the team for this Olympic period and the have Leslie Howard or Peter Leone ride him!

After all, both are incredibly talented, gifted riders with strong International backgrounds who happen to find themselves without a mount in an Olympic year. If the goal is to create a strong er US team, then send Perrin and one of these exceptionally experienced riders to Europe before hand and see if they can get it together. If not, oh well, if so, we have just improved our odds of a medal. I don't know guys but this method worked for us through US Showjumping's "Golden Years". Has anyone thought to give it another try?

lauriep

May. 27, 2004, 07:18 AM

PF, you can't just do things willy-nilly just because it sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, this isn't the old days, the old rules are gone, along with Bert, and this is what we have. Owners don't donate horses to the team anymore, nor do they let each other ride their horses. Just not the way it is. And unfortunately, the riders you named don't have top level horses of their own at the moment, nor did they compete in the Trials. So, lovely as it may sound, not an option.

I'd like to discuss the imbecilic way the byes CAN work, affecting only riders 3 or 4, and why the riders are ranked at all once the trials are complete. Why is the rider who places "last" of the total number, not subject to replacement, but ones who finish above him/her, are? Why isn't anyone on the team vulnerable should they not be at the top of their game when competition rolls around? Call me linear, but neither makes any sense at all, and I think that that is a big change that needs to be made to the rules before the WEG in 2006.

DMK

May. 27, 2004, 07:27 AM

I agree Laurie - it seems to me we would be best served by having a flexible list right up until the last possible minute.

But is the structure of the bye system this way because we, and the sport submitted it to the USOC this way and are a victim of our own bad idea? (oops) Or is this just an USOC/Olympic federation type rule? (That just doesn't sound likely).

Heather

May. 27, 2004, 07:34 AM

It seems to be a good way to mix objective and subjective criteria for show jumping is to have a short list or team list (whatever semantics you wish to use) that is created mostly objectively (say, the top six at the trials, with maybe one or two bye slots for unforseen circumstances or to save a good horse). But once that list is made, no one is "ranked". Then they go and go to Europe or what have you, and their ranking is then determined by totally subjective decisions based on how the horses and riders are going at that moment.

So you send six or eight horses to Europe that have proven they are fit and ready, or have a strong history of pulling through, but then by two weeks before the Games (or whenever the deadline is), you have the committee say, well, Sparky isn't quite on form, but Snookums is, so the team awill be Fuzzy, Snookums, Dobbin, and Fluffy, with Sparky as the first alternate.

In this way, other than possibly a bye early on, the committee doesn't evenhave to get involved until much closer to the acutal competition, when being "on form" is a far more key determination.

This is sort of a combination of what the eventers do and what the dressage folks do, although as far as I'm aware, neither of those groups have a bye policy.

Madame Butterfly

May. 27, 2004, 07:37 AM

Thanks you DMk. It is nice that all of us equestrians have gone to med school and know so much that we can speak so emphatically as to what can or can't heal....You should open an office. Truly, if Perin's owner is thinking of leaving the business, it behooves all of us, at least the committee, to talk to him and to beg that he will stay in the business. Is our business so wealthy that we can afford to lose even one supporter. I don't think so. As for changing the rules so Margie would have been an alternate...well, let's see. There were 100 days to Athens...so maybe enough time to rush an amendment to the rules...they rush things through in Congress when they have to....Someday, I hope that Margie is on the committee. I feel that she will be very fair. Now, I ask all of you, especially you folks who have far more influence in this business than I. Is there a committee going over to Athens to ensure the riders safety? The lighting, the terrain...these people are far behind in their schedule in building. Should our committee not ensure that there is backup lighting, that our riders, at least, have their own security system? Please someone listen.

lauriep

May. 27, 2004, 07:53 AM

Hmmm, bad idea on left hand, USOC mandate on right (in balancing scale mode). Oooops, left hand just went WAAAY down! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SGray

May. 27, 2004, 07:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:.....We want the strongest Team at Athens....there is just NO WAY Margie can be at the _TOP TOP TOP TOP_ of her game then...I watched her walk the course for Round 1 and I watched her ride it...

I am a fan of Margie's so when I say this PLEASE give me some credit....Margie was obviously in pain, terrific pain just walking the course...Perin packed her tail over all the jumps, one bad distance after another, and was a super horse for the Round...

If Margie had been pain free just before Round 1 I might feel different BUT she was not...she hobbled and limped around the course walk...she was FAR from healed at all.....she needs another 6 months at least to get over a terrible injury.

But with the injury, Margie still can not be at the _TOP TOP_ of her game for Athens....

IF she rode the show in Europe the middle of June, that is only 2 1/2 weeks away..._NOT 3 MONTHS_ as you keep pointing out...so say she missed that one..then she would have to be ready in 5 weeks for the middle of July for that one....TOUGH CHANCE FOR THAT EITHER.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to follow your reasoning...she could miss those 2 BIG shows so she could heal better...then she would be rusty and NOT at the _TOP TOP_ of her game for the Olympics...a TOP competition. _OR SHE WOULD RIDE THOSE SHOWS..._ and not give her body a chance to heal...a lose lose for all of us, mostly Margie's future... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF the selectors had no intention of giving the bye to Margie then I think they should have stated that bluntly. Then there would have been no reason for her to push the envelope and risk her health competing in the trials.

khobstetter

May. 27, 2004, 08:18 AM

DMK..thanks..always LOVE your "opinion".. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ANDI LOVE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOVE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOVE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif your personal potshot at a post where I got BAD information AND came back and said so and apologized...3 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW girl, nothing else to do???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif sticks and stones to the tune of happy bithday here!!!

Sgray..I said to horsense that we cannot know what was actually said unless we are either Margie, the Selectors that were there or someone else who was actually in the meeting. Maybe horsense was...if so I for one wold LOVE to hear what was actually said...quotes please.

I can only respond to what I actually saw and actually heard and I was in the rider tents and the media booths where they gathered.

I adore Margie and her tenacity and energy....but the Team is selected..if there are so many negatives about the process....LET'S CHANGE THE PROCESS..

But I personally ..and I almost always put IMHO...I wish we could get on with being excited about a SUPER Team this time around and stop the carrying on. (in my post to horsense I did put it was in IMHO).

So let's change the process, let's all carry picket signs and storm the Federation headquarters, let's tie ourselves to trees ..but for now, let's get soooooooooooo excited about this Team...THEY ARE A SUPER GROUP AND A GREAT CHANCE AT GOLD. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

nycjumper

May. 27, 2004, 08:19 AM

Is it possible that the Selection Committee was planning on give MGE the bye until they saw a)how much her injury affected her and b)how strong the other team members were?

By the way, I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on tv but I think its safe to say that if someone is so badly injured that they can't ride more than 1 round & on top of that reinjures herself riding that round, its a pretty safe bet that she won't be in perfect health in two months. Bones take a long time to heal.

And has anyone answered the MW & Aachen question? The article does state "The ALRV decided to undertake everything possible to prevent the rider McLain Ward from competing in Aachen and from setting foot on the Aachen show grounds again. .."

Just My Style

May. 27, 2004, 08:26 AM

I don't understand what the problem is. Margie is an incredibly talented rider. Unfortunately for her, she is injured. The selection trials are now- not in 6 months and the committee must go off the information that is available today, not speculative information months down the road. I think they were more than fair to even consider a bye for her. They did exactly as they said they would, wait and see the results and make a final decision at that time. It's too bad for Margie that it didn't go her way. If the shoe was on the other foot, Margie would have been devastated if she was bumped to allow another rider on the team under similar circumstances.

As for Perin's owner- I have no doubt that he is very disappointed, but this is the nature of equestrian sports. There are no guarantees and hundreds of variables that go in to a successful horse & rider combination. Riders get injured. Horses go lame. If he wanted guarantees in life, then he picked the wrong sport.

I am not discounting Margie's ability, because I truly think she is one of the best, however, the stars just weren't aligned for her this time. At the same time, we have had many successful Olympic teams that she was not a part of. The success of the team does not hinge on her alone. Maybe things will go better for her at the next trials.

khobstetter

May. 27, 2004, 08:31 AM

just my style...really well said....

Our hearts go to Margie BUT our support goes to a GREAT Team with a super chance at GOLD...IMHO (dmk i said it again)

DMK

May. 27, 2004, 08:52 AM

knobby, of course you can have an opinion, lord knows we all do. But you seem to have a history of presenting things as fact, with an air of "I am in the know", and then oops, maybe not so much... I could go on, but Kachoo has already covered this topic in depth. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Do I wish the team the best? Hell yes. Do I think they are a very good team? Absolutely. Do I think MGE would be ready to go at Aachen? I have no idea, but there has not been anything on the record out of her mouth or the selectors to dispute that claim, so I am working on that assumption.

If the selection committee made promises they couldn't or wouldn't deliver on, then I see nothing wrong in calling them on it. They will have the chance to respond if they like, and if nothing else, if another rider ever gets in this position, they should consider themselves duly educated. Even better, in the future, maybe all parties involved will make sure they clearly communicate with each other over time. Best yet, if this prompts us to make an even better selction process, I'm not sure who the big loser is here. And I don't see any of that happening unless someone questions what happened.

ufte

May. 27, 2004, 01:23 PM

Does anyone have the answer to the MW Aachen question? With all of the talk of illiegal drug use and LTD at the shows what type of message are we sending our young riders by having MW represent our country at the Olympics anyways? He isn't banned from Aachen by playing by the rules!

poltroon

May. 27, 2004, 01:25 PM

I love Margie. I wish she could go.

I'm not particularly a fan of McLain's.

But, the fact is that the selectors possibly have a tougher job than the competitors do here. They must try to be fair, to appear fair, AND if we do not have a strong performance they will second-guess themselves forever - should they have picked someone else?

Since the only rider they could replace with a bye was McLain, and given his unique, er, history, there is no way they could've taken his spot without it being a huge referendum on McLain personally. It would've been seen as a hugely political decision.

I am sad for Margie. I do not know what she was told or not told. But I expect that the committee's feelings when they had a mythical 3rd slot would've changed when anyone claimed it - that you would explicitly have to tell a rider who had jumped well for 5 events So Sorry, you can't go, - it means something different when there's a real person in that place. And, in this case, a strong rider, one who has been a favorite in at least two previous trials and not made it. Margie is a great rider but she is not 100% and she has been to the Olympics before.

I'm with Heather: the eventers are doing a great job of working with a longer list and then picking the riders who are peaking just right. To take only 5 to Europe seems silly. Take the top 6,7,8! If a horse or rider is hurt, they can use the alternates. Rearrange the Byes so that the top 4 automatically go to europe, and then the committee can choose 3 others to join them, with the committee to choose the final team at the end.

Again, I feel bad for Margie, but I'm not sure that she's even the best choice for that bye. Dello Joio and Glasgow are a strong pair that only jumped one round (clean).

In any case: it's a strong team, and I wish them the best of luck in Europe and Athens!

bjorn

May. 27, 2004, 01:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
I love Margie. I wish she could go.

I'm not particularly a fan of McLain's.

But, the fact is that the selectors possibly have a tougher job than the competitors do here. They must try to be fair, to appear fair, AND if we do not have a strong performance they will second-guess themselves forever - should they have picked someone else?

Since the only rider they could replace with a bye was McLain, and given his unique, er, history, there is no way they could've taken his spot without it being a huge referendum on McLain personally. It would've been seen as a hugely political decision.

I am sad for Margie. I do not know what she was told or not told. But I expect that the committee's feelings when they had a mythical 3rd slot would've changed when anyone claimed it - that you would explicitly have to tell a rider who had jumped well for 5 events So Sorry, you can't go, - it means something different when there's a real person in that place. And, in this case, a strong rider, one who has been a favorite in at least two previous trials and not made it. Margie is a great rider but she is not 100% and she has been to the Olympics before.

I'm with Heather: the eventers are doing a great job of working with a longer list and then picking the riders who are peaking just right. To take only 5 to Europe seems silly. Take the top 6,7,8! If a horse or rider is hurt, they can use the alternates. Rearrange the Byes so that the top 4 automatically go to europe, and then the committee can choose 3 others to join them, with the committee to choose the final team at the end.

Again, I feel bad for Margie, but I'm not sure that she's even the best choice for that bye. Dello Joio and Glasgow are a strong pair that only jumped one round (clean).

In any case: it's a strong team, and I wish them the best of luck in Europe and Athens! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello,
I'm from Belgium and if we had a super combination that is not 100% to go to the Olympics, than we have a problem, because we have only a few top riders. But when you have the same case in USA, you can choose so many other riders, be happy.
And you've chosen for a trial-system, so when the three best combinations have much less faults in these trials than the others, why replace them? You don't have to change a combination in topform with a combination that hasn't jumped this year. Once it should come out, and maybe to late ( in Athens..)
Be happy with your super team.
And remember Sapphire is unbelievable, we had her untill two years ago and we own all her brothers, sister, .. the whole family.
Sapphire was carefull, had scope and power and is so intelligent. Like her family...

mnolen9698

May. 27, 2004, 02:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ufte:
Does anyone have the answer to the MW Aachen question? With all of the talk of illiegal drug use and LTD at the shows what type of message are we sending our young riders by having MW represent our country at the Olympics anyways? He isn't banned from Aachen by playing by the rules! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's perfectly reasonable for us to expect the selection committee to publicly adress the MC Aachen issue. Surely it hasn't slipped their collective mind!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
But, the fact is that the selectors possibly have a tougher job than the competitors do here. They must try to be fair, to appear fair, AND if we do not have a strong performance they will second-guess themselves forever - should they have picked someone else?

Since the only rider they could replace with a bye was McLain, and given his unique, er, history, there is no way they could've taken his spot without it being a huge referendum on McLain personally. It would've been seen as a hugely political decision. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is far more difficult to ride in the Olympics than choose who should go. As for being and appearing "fair," the definition of fair is not solid. (Think about how you'd define "fair" if you didn't know where you would be in whatever situation.) You're 100% right about how the committee will feel if the team doesn't perform as well as we expect/hope.

We, as an equine community, should make a decision about McLain. Ethics and politics are (and always will be) intertwined, whether you agree with it or not. But it's good to make a stand and state what you hold most important. Do the ends justify the means? Or, do the means justify the ends? Does the USA want to win so badly we're willing to consider, let alone send, a person whose been busted big time both here and abroad for illegal and unethical (and cruel) behavior? I think we and the selection committee should consider how our riders fare as ambassadors as well as how they fare a athletes. And, it sends a real message to everyone else (here - in pony clubs, young riders, etc. - and abroad) who we send and what they've done (good and bad).

nycjumper

May. 27, 2004, 02:31 PM

I really don't think we have a right to question MW's selection. Whether or not you like him or not, the fact is he served his punishment & was completely reinstated.

As a member in good standing at the moment, he has every right to try and represent the US at the Olympics. And his performance justifed his selection.

Fight people being reinstated if you don't think they should be there. Change the rules, lobby, whatever and as of next time, maybe it will be different.

I did bring up the Aachen ? because that is a current issue.

poltroon

May. 27, 2004, 04:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mnolen9698:
We, as an equine community, should make a decision about McLain. Ethics and politics are (and always will be) intertwined, whether you agree with it or not. But it's good to make a stand and state what you hold most important. Do the ends justify the means? Or, do the means justify the ends? Does the USA want to win so badly we're willing to consider, let alone send, a person whose been busted big time both here and abroad for illegal and unethical (and cruel) behavior? I think we and the selection committee should consider how our riders fare as ambassadors as well as how they fare a athletes. And, it sends a real message to everyone else (here - in pony clubs, young riders, etc. - and abroad) who we send and what they've done (good and bad). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no problem with doing just that - but the time for such a judgement is before that person's entry is accepted for the selection trials, not after he finishes in the top 3.

khobstetter

May. 27, 2004, 04:32 PM

djm.....sticks and stones sticks and stones sticks and stones... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif lalalalalalala

why is it that..........????????????????

Palisades

May. 27, 2004, 04:41 PM

That's mature. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

khobstetter

May. 27, 2004, 05:06 PM

I know http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

lauriep

May. 27, 2004, 05:23 PM

Our federation/national organization is set up with rules, punishments and reinstatements once punishments are served. MW's infraction is no worse than the many other trainers caught for various things, and probably less serious than a lot of the things that go on everyday, but are not caught. He has served his punishment, been completely reinstated, so move on! Do you really think that all the Europeans are pure as the driven snow? People make mistakes and errors in judgement and should not be expected to pay for them the rest of their lives when the infractions are not particularly heinous.

AHC7007

May. 27, 2004, 05:51 PM

I agree with SBT. I do think Margie is a great rider, but I also believe that the USA is sending a great team. It seems to me that Lauren could plead the same case if Clasiko wasn't feeling 100%. He did the Olympics as a fairly young horse and he is only getting better. Did she deserve a spot? I hope that the USEF doesn't sued over this and the option of a bye gets taken away again. I believe that this is a good system, you have 2 spots that have to be earned so that bias doesn't play too much into the selection, but giving at least one pair a bye so they can peak for the olympics.
I wish the best of luck to all of our team members!

mucky

May. 27, 2004, 07:16 PM

I hope the selection commitee is cringing when we go to Europe and break a horse or rider or fail a jog or dont do well because of their inexperienced horses and the backup fails I will chuckle because it has happened before and will again w/out our strongest and my pick.

Madame Butterfly

May. 27, 2004, 07:38 PM

Don't say that mucky. Whatever your feelings are, never wish bad karma. We must send good prayers and thoughts.

Just My Style

May. 27, 2004, 07:43 PM

How can you say that? How can anyone say that the team will fail without Margie? It is a good team. Instead of whining over Margie not making it, maybe we should focus our attention on what a solid team we do have and support them. As far as MW goes- he has served his punishment, is now in good standing and is eligible to be on the team. That is how the system is set up and that is what we have to live with.

SBT

May. 27, 2004, 09:06 PM

And that, mucky, is why YOU aren't in charge. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I see nothing wrong with the way the trials played out, except perhaps the alleged miscommunication between Margie and the selectors. But only those close to the situation (think INNER circles here) will ever really know for sure.

I think we should put the Margie debacle behind us and concentrate on what REALLY matters: we have an absolutely fabulous team for Athens, a team with a real medal hope. THAT was the whole point of the trials, and in this case, the end absolutely justified the means. To start arguing now over who said what to whom, whose feelings were hurt, who's more "worthy" of an Olympic berth despite the trials' outcome, etc., just sets us right back to where we were in '92.

trailblazer

May. 27, 2004, 09:40 PM

This ain't the Special Olympics, people! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Get well soon, Margie. This just wasn't your time. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I just hope you show more class than some on this BB...

PonyJumperGRL

May. 28, 2004, 12:19 AM

Margie has frustrated me to no end. Why can't she just except the hand that's been dealt with her and focus on her recovery.

She should be mature enough to understand that nothing's certain until it's over...no matter what the selectors promised they couldn't have possibly gotten a better result from the trials- Beezie is just amazing, as her world ranking currently shows (you don't get that from blind luck), Mclain is one of the winningest out there, and Peter has definitely shown his consistency on European circuits and at the WEG.

scotfree

May. 28, 2004, 04:30 AM

Ok, I guess I missed this but I know MW's father is a convicted felon AND I know MW was suspended and there remains an unresolved question as to his eligibility to compete in Aachen...but MW is a convicted felon? Someone point me to the thread that goes into that one!

lauriep

May. 28, 2004, 05:02 AM

I don't think that has been said anywhere, scotfree, unless I missed it.

scotfree

May. 28, 2004, 06:52 AM

oops, lauriep, I think you are right. I read too fast. It did say Barney! Sorry.

Katie

May. 28, 2004, 10:16 AM

I wish those questioning the team selection would realistically look at the facts.

Yes, Margie is a fantastic rider. Then again, all those selected are fantastic riders. Yes, she's probably going to be healed by Athens. But then again, who's to know? She thought she could do the trials, but found out after the first round she wasn't physically ready. Would she be honest with herself about her limitations? She's gutsy, but also has been known to risk her body for the ride.

Ridin' Fool

May. 28, 2004, 11:32 AM

I don't even want to get into the politics of the selection process, but I am incredibly disappointed in Margie's response to the situation as seen on the COTH. Perhaps she should have taken time to cool down before making public statements. We, as the public, will NEVER be privy to the conversation had between the selection committee and Margie during the trials, therefore, this is entirely a "he said, she said" situation. We're all going to believe the words coming from the camp we're backing, right?

I feel terribly for Margie and her injury. It took me 3 months to recover this year from a broken arm - even after it healed, jumping shot needles through my entire arm... I cannot imagine the pain from a leg. It doesn't seem meant to be for her and Perin this time around - I just wish she had expressed her thoughts with more professionalism. Ray Texel's response to her comments was very well spoken and clear.

We have a fabulous team for Athens - please, people, stop the arguing and support Beezie, Chris, Peter and McClain!

JulieMontgomery

May. 28, 2004, 12:25 PM

FWIW, which is n-o-t-h-i-n-g.... she needs to get over it.

We have a team. Period.

jackie

May. 28, 2004, 01:11 PM

Congradulations Bjorn on breeding and raising a wonderful mare. It is a breeder's dream. What an exciting Olympics you will have!

Good luck!

khobstetter

May. 28, 2004, 02:03 PM

WOW ridin' fool...sooooooooooooooo well said...

horsense

May. 28, 2004, 06:04 PM

(Khobstetter: you probably have seen this on Towerheads but I am repeating it here for the sake of discussion)

While I think all of your constructive comments are great. I think some people are missing the point of what MGE was trying to say in her interview. The gist of the article was to have better communication between everyone involved and to make something positive (out of a negative situation) by trying to improve the selection procedures. She never said anything negative about any members of the team, only about how she was mislead by the committee. The Selectors said they wanted to see Perin compete in 2004 so he competed in the warm-up the day before the trials and then again the next day where he not only went clean but he ended up being the leading qualifier after that round. Let's remember that he's no stranger to our Trials system. He won the Olympic Trials in 2000 and repeated that feat in 2003 at the Pan American Games Trials. Last year the Selectors had granted Lauren Hough a bye after two rounds setting a precedent for this very scenario. No one is disputing that the selection committee was in a tough spot but by not dealing with the problem in advance they made their situation more difficult.

As far as everyone playing TV doctor, as a friend of MGE's, I know for a fact the USOC doctor (who does have a medical degree) was kept informed about the injury from the moment it happened and was being sent radiographs, had continuous communication with her surgeon and examined her himself. He told the committee she would be healed by the end of June to early July should she continue with the recovery plan that was set out for her by her doctors. Since none of us have a crystal ball ( or, at least, are not sharing) if she and Perin did not seem up to the task the criteria had a perfect out, giving the Chef d'Equipe the power to take her off the team up to July 14th. Again, do we want the best team now or in August closer to the Olympics?

As a friend I know for a fact MGE did not disclose all that was said to her as it would only arouse more negativity and harm any possible future communications. IMHO MGE is trying to react in a positive way by trying to do the right thing and help improve the selection procedure for the future. I think it takes great courage to tell her story, which is only part of what goes on behind closed doors, and then to try to make a change that may benefit all of our athletes. It is very hard to fix something without looking at all the parts and trying to decide which are damaged and which just don't belong. Let's try and fix the problem so it never happens again. I think Katie Prudent said it right in Horse International: "Shame on America if they keep the number one Horse /Rider combination off our Olympic Team because they are not ready to do the Trials" three months before the Olympics.

DMK

May. 28, 2004, 06:25 PM

horsense, you wouldn't perhaps know how to get to the back of the old surgery barn, would you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Great post, by the way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

khobstetter

May. 28, 2004, 06:48 PM

horsesense....

THANK YOU for responding in such a nice, positive manner.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My point is sort of simple....there is a time and a place for everything.

It would have been much better for the entire sport if Margie AT THIS POINT IN TIME, would have said "GOOD LUCK, HAVE A SUPER OLYMPIC TRIP" to our Athletes selected and left it at that......

And then in a week, or 4 weeks, or 3 months, have started a huge ground swell to make some changes in the selection process. I don't think anyone is disputing that the process can be improved and made better....

The problem is that instead she came out blasting the Selection Committee like crazy....THEY have a criteria they HAVE to go by, like it or not, it is a thankless job and that will piss off someone BUT they do the best they can with the hand they are delt.

This Selection Committee has taken it all very seriously and REALLY REALLY wants a winning Team...they had to make decisions and they did...none of us were in the meetings "private" decision time, so we cannot know all the issues they had to balance.

I do know these people pretty well and am good friends with a couple of them...they are all GREAT professionals that would like nothing better than to help pick a WINNING GOLD Team for Athens...but the rethoric has insinuated they really don't care...it, at times here on the board, has indicated that they almost purposely tried to pick a BAD Team.

Margie should be a very important part of changing the process but now it "looks like" it will be sour grapes on her part...that is not good for anyone.

I just wish she could have been more professional about it and held her tongue a bit.....the time to be hurt and vent was not when the Team was just picked and we should all at least be supportive..

THAT (DuMpK) is MHO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

DMK

May. 28, 2004, 07:04 PM

khobby, you know you can have an opinion. It's just the professing that you are more in the know about someone's medical condition than, let's say, their doc and the actual person in question that is less than tasteful.

lauriep

May. 28, 2004, 07:06 PM

khobstetter, you are disappointing me with your lack of professionalism...

Using DMK's screen name in that manner is childish and unprofessional. You two have disagreed, as we all will, but name calling? C'mon, you're better than that.

No one here knows what was said to Margie and what wasn't. The process certainly needs further tweaking, and hopefully it will get it before the WEG in 2006. But til then, it is what it is. We've got a good, solid team, with one green, but very talented, horse. Let's see how it shakes out in Hachenburg and Aachen...

Don't forget, we also have a different Super League team in Rome this weekend we need to be supporting!

khobstetter

May. 28, 2004, 07:07 PM

Give it a rest DuMpK...I will not go and copy and paste all the crap you have spewed here as an expert that was WRONG WRONG...it would take too many pages... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Just one positive, nice response from you would be nice...

Chestnut Manure

May. 28, 2004, 07:10 PM

Engle's claim is completely bogus, as are DMK's tiresome rantings. If anyone was in need of a bye, the selectors could have evaluated their need before the trials. the end

DMK

May. 28, 2004, 07:14 PM

Khobby, you can say as you will. I'm just not going there. That goes for "Dawn Mills" as well - that delivery is way too special for me to bother with.

khobstetter

May. 28, 2004, 07:14 PM

You know lauriep...gets a little old when that little group thinks it is soooooooooo fun to poke at my name and spell it in hideous ways.....fair play..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK

May. 28, 2004, 07:18 PM

khobstetter, if is soothes your obvious hurt feelings, I will be more than happy to edit the "khobby" to "khobstetter." I mean honestly, that was just an abbreviation. I'd have been way more clever if I was looking for insulting, I promise you.

Chestnut Manure

May. 28, 2004, 07:20 PM

actually clever is not your game.

bye

lauriep

May. 28, 2004, 07:22 PM

I hardly think that shortening khobstetter to khobby equates to DuMpK.

I don't happen to agree with DMK on this particular subject (who'd a thunk it, hmmm DMK?)
I think Margie being completely healed and ready to compete at the Olympic level in the time allowed is a BIG risk, probably too big.

BUT, that said, if the stupid selection process allowed her to be one of the two alternates with a bye, then I would say go for it! It is the process that is the problem, not the people involved.

If healing time were predictable, then Glasgow and Norman should certainly have had a shot at the bye as well. But it isn't, doctors and gutsy riders' wishes aside.

My point, however long winded, is that even though I don't agree with DMK, ESG, and Dawn Mills, name calling is a bit beneath us all...

Chestnut Manure

May. 28, 2004, 07:25 PM

Oh no - its not beneath me!

Actually its my finest hour. The rest of the time I try to converse here.

DMK

May. 28, 2004, 07:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
I don't happen to agree with DMK on this particular subject (who'd a thunk it, hmmm DMK?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was bound to happen sooner or later, but still shocking all the same!

(Oh, and just so you know, I WAS heading to Deep Run this year, but of course that got cancelled. I swear, one day I will get to VA!)

lauriep

May. 28, 2004, 07:28 PM

They say that knowing your problem is half the battle of beating it, so I guess you are on your way, Dawn.

DMK, I refuse to believe you are EVER going to make it this far north. You have disappointed me far too many times, and my poor nerves just can't take another! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chestnut Manure

May. 28, 2004, 07:31 PM

I just hope I'm not on your way. And my way is the only way. So when you are making your way north, please remember me.

DMK

May. 28, 2004, 07:35 PM

It's true, Laurie - it's a plot to unnerve you. I confess, my fiendish plans have been discovered. Damn that moose and squirrel!

lauriep

May. 28, 2004, 07:44 PM

I know what your deal is!! You and DAwn Mills are the same person!!!!!! Same first letter of your screen name - I would think you'd be a little more creative!

Moose and squirrel, my ass! You are an alter!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

satin

May. 28, 2004, 08:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Using DMK's screen name in that manner is childish and unprofessional. You two have disagreed, as we all will, but name calling? C'mon, you're better than that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, she's not. You know how the emperor wears no clothes? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

special delivery

May. 28, 2004, 08:24 PM

lauriep - you are confused. Dawn Mills is mine. I may have turned over a new leaf, but I still own the alters.

Linus

May. 28, 2004, 08:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Margie should be a very important part of changing the process but now it "looks like" it will be sour grapes on her part...that is not good for anyone.

I just wish she could have been more professional about it and held her tongue a bit.....the time to be hurt and vent was not when the Team was just picked and we should all at least be supportive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my gut reaction, too--regardless of what really happened, it just doesn't look good. But then I got to wondering -- when would it be a good time for MGE to come out with her side of the story? Later in the summer? Right after the Games? Years down the road? See, regardless of the timing & the ultimate outcome, I think, she's going to look like a bad sport to some. If our team does well in Athens, her complaints will seem groundless (because the selection process, however flawed, achieved its objective), and in poor taste besides--that would be the time to celebrate the victory, not complain! If she discussed this after a poor team performance at the Games, MGE would surely come across as a neenering Monday-morning quarterback saying "I told you so."

I don't know enough to say whether she should or should not have gotten the bye, but I do support her (surprisingly restrained) comments about the process. IMO it's a step in the right direction toward increasing transparency in the sport and its leaders. It's forcing the selectors to justify their decisions.

And it's just the kind of drama the media loves! These controversies happen all the time in other sports, with no seeming problems. Instead the debates over trades and selections are a good sign of a sport's popularity.

I don't see it hurting us at all in the long run. We all want the best possible USA performance in Athens, with or without MGE.

khobstetter

May. 28, 2004, 08:53 PM

I think Margie is super.....I think we are so fortunate to have her in this sport, she could probably be successful at ANYTHING she wants.

I would think the proper time would be after the Trials....let the Team bask in it's selection and do EVERYTHING possible to support it.

I guess after the Trails is best because there is still 3 1/2 years till the next go around....then she can start a move to change the process..

IF WE HAVE A WINNING TEAM...she would then know and could tailor her approach to that...NO ONE I know says the process is perfect, I think everyone wants to see some changes and adjustments.

IF WE HAVE A LOSING TEAM (as she has also been on) then she could speak from first hand knowledge and be an even BIGGER voice for change.

BUT to carry on so right after the Selections, state that her owner is questioning involvement with the sport at all is just not right IMHO. It smacks of sour grapes and that will lose support for her ultimate goal..change the process...

I know it must be SO terribly difficult for her right now but we still have a Team to think about and a long road yet to Athens...

Chestnut Manure

May. 28, 2004, 08:57 PM

I think sd is Margie's alter.

JustJump

May. 29, 2004, 04:18 AM

I think that the only thing this whole debate has proved is that the job of serving as a selector is completely, totally, utterly, and unimagineably THANKLESS.

Everyone knew the setup going in. The time to speak up (how many elite/high performance rider meetings were there?) was in ADVANCE of setting up a system where someone given a bye can't fill an alternate position.

The fact is that NO ONE who earned their way on to this team deserves to be replaced with a gravely injured rider who, who would need a lot of LUCK in addition to the help of medical experts to heal in time to ride into the ring at Athens.

For all those clammoring for the return of the subjective system: How would YOU go about choosing unbiased selectors, who don't have a vested interest in the outcome of the selection process? How would you make the process FAIR? Or does FAIR not concern you?

Bentley

May. 29, 2004, 06:02 AM

You know, KHobstetter, I wasn't going to post at all, until you called her DuMpK - that was rude, un-necessary, and as already stated, really REALLY childish http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
BUT to carry on so right after the Selections, state that her owner is questioning involvement with the sport at all is just not right IMHO. It smacks of sour grapes and that will lose support for her ultimate goal..change the process...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know I'm not a journalist, but I am literate...... and my reading of that article was very different from yours http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. And yes, I completely respect that it's YOUR opinion, so now you're stuck reading mine http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

MGE is entitled to say whatever she wants, whenever she wants, and in my opinion the article did not take away from the support of the team one iota. MGE was simply making what had happened to her (and vicariously to Perin's owner) known to the public, and her disappointment in being promised one thing and then to have it turned around. If I were in her shoes and it happened the way she said it did (which again, in my personal opinion may have happened) there is no doubt that I would be raising a stink too. If people aren't allowed to express their displeasure at a decision personal to them then what can they express it at? She was not discussing the qualities of the individual members of the team, or how well they will do in Athens. All she was concerned about was being (in her opinion) lied to by the selection committee.

Everyone does not have to stand around and support the team by blindly agreeing with the selection and keeping their mouths shut in the face of what they see as an injustice done by the selection committee. It goes against the whole idea of free speach and standing up for what you believe in - two qualities that people on this board seem to hold in high regard http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. You can support the team and still have a beef with how the selection committee handled it. Two totally separate things......

Margie was quoted as saying "I hope that in a few days he’ll calm down. I don’t want him to be sour about the whole thing." That doesn't 'smack of sour grapes'. It's stating a fact and then her opinion - he probably was mad as he&& when he heard and she's hoping he doesn't become completely disillusioned and bitter (because of course that never happens in the horse world http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

And then, about your post on page 5

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
The problem is that instead she came out blasting the Selection Committee like crazy....THEY have a criteria they HAVE to go by, like it or not, it is a thankless job and that will piss off someone BUT they do the best they can with the hand they are delt.

This Selection Committee has taken it all very seriously and REALLY REALLY wants a winning Team...they had to make decisions and they did...none of us were in the meetings "private" decision time, so we cannot know all the issues they had to balance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That includes you too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You have no idea what they promised MGE in private, and IF they did promise her a bye and then kept her in the dark until the team was announced, then IMHO I think she has every right to have a beef with them and express it right away.

I don't understand your comment about them having to stick so tightly to a criteria they HAVE to go by - doesn't that criteria include the possibility of a bye, which, as the whole discussion has raised, the Selection Committee could have promised behind closed doors to MGE. If there was no possibility for that bye then yes I would agree with you, but since they had some leeway with who they picked as the third rider it is not correct for you to suggest that they had to follow a specific criteria.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
And then in a week, or 4 weeks, or 3 months, have started a huge ground swell to make some changes in the selection process. I don't think anyone is disputing that the process can be improved and made better....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should MGE just have to sit on the sidelines and smile sweetly until it is too late for her to do anything about it? As already stated a million times, none of us have crystal balls, no-one can see how MGE or any of the others will be doing in 2+months. This is the olympics we're talking about, not just some average horse show. And this may be her one and only chance to compete in it on Perin.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I do know these people pretty well and am good friends with a couple of them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whooppeeee for you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And on a different note, about the little tiff you and DMK had back on page 2 I think.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> by KHobstetter
ANDI LOVE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOVE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOVE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif your personal potshot at a post where I got BAD information AND came back and said so and apologized..._3 years ago_!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was personally affected all those years ago by your misinformed post about poor Lewis (Leonardo) being put down. As someone who worked/ rode with John for some time, and used to ride with Lewis' owners (hell I used to carpool and babysit their daughter that's now doing the high ammys) it was highly disturbing to read about that on the internet, and then find out that it was not even true. I would have thought, as a journalist you would know to check your sources over something that you knew would be taken very seriously. And, for the record, as someone pointed out earlier this year - you never apologised http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif, just *hoped* you were wrong. I think that was half the issue. You gave me grief for making sure I had all the facts right when I was asking a question in the same thread and then came on and then made such a blatantly incorrect post. Hello pot, this is kettle...... you're black http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Done rant, feel better now..... Thank you all very much http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, leave any spare change by the door, I'll be here all week http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

khobstetter

May. 29, 2004, 08:01 AM

Thank you Bentley for a well written OPINION of my OPINION. I thought you wrote it really well and throught out each post. And I mean that in a complimentary way.

I'm not going to got tat for tat with you, or the other guys (DMK) with all the cut and paste....only to say that I did apologize...and it was a REALLY relible source from John's own barn who said they watched it.....sorry if they lied, people have been known to do that.

And for the name pot shot...you guys (including DMK) have changed my name to knobsitter, ksnotsitter, knobobit, knobsatonit, knobnot and so on ad nauseum...just got a little tired of it this time....this morning however I am a little more rested and find it all again VERY funny myself. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

As far as "childish"...yep, can still be a kid and want to smack back at a bully sometimes..

Have never met DMK (or her "friends"), don't even know who that is (conflicting information about being a guy from Florida, to a girl from Texas, to a nobody from Virginia)...

Personally don't even care !! Don't care about the "past" posts she/he has made, only respond to the current and recent ones.....

Maybe that is a bit of difference, I guess I could go back and dig dig dig in all the archives and find the stuff DMK (and friends) have posted that was offensive, mean spirited or hateful (IMHO) and I could cut and paste all day long...but thats not how I personally choose to post here.

I chose to respond to the current recent threads and go on with life......but when old/or recent things get cut and pasted out of context and then the name calling of my PERSONAL name (DMK hides behind whatever the letters stand for) it gets a bit old....

Yep, was tired...I have been picking up 6 horses from Europe THIS WEEK that flew in and/or needed to go to Davis....YEP, YIPPEE FOR ME ..AND spending days at the Trails(many) and nights (many) writing the artilcles for Towerheads that I have gotten almost 100 thank you/congrats emails from all over the world from people, most actually owning, riding or officiating the Trials horses.....YEP AGAIN YIPPEE FOR ME ...so was a bit on edge.

I apologize to DMK and would like to AGAIN invite him/her to a private topic where he/she can blast away tell me what the hell I ever did to her/he that makes he/she follow just many many posts I make and have a nasty ass comment to follow up.

If DMK has a legite issue, I would invite her/him to take it off the Board so the bickering doesn't come here...I sent a PT but got no response....maybe it got lost but I really don't think so.

I have my own name on the BB, both web sites, my email so DMK could take it off the Board IF he/she wanted....DMK has no contact information AT ALL and for some reason chose not to use the PT option we have...instead used the flame thrower here...AND I DID RESPOND IN DEFENSE...sorry!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I suppose I could get the information as to who he/she is...then I could dig for dirt and skeletons (we all have them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)...find all the people who don't like him/her...find old disgruntled clients (everyone has them)...and use that ad nauseum here on the BB like it has been used against me....BUT NOT GOING TO.....

Just going to sit quietly and wait for a PT... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sorry guys.....BOY I FEEL BETTER !!!

DMK

May. 29, 2004, 11:53 AM

khobstetter:

1. I have not now, or at any time in the past, received a PT from you.

2. I see no reason to send you a PT. I have no issues with you and have exactly zero desire to engage in any form of conversation with you, however I will continue to exert my right to voice my opinion within the rules of this board.

3. My e-mail address is, and has always been listed in my profile. If you can't find it, I can't help you any more than that.

4. If I choose to not use my name, that is my right. There are a lot of whackos out there who do not necessarily post here (and some who do), but lurk - I am not making my identity, location, etc. available to the entire world. To me this is just common sense. If you choose otherwise, more power to you.

5. I am a cross dressing Lebanese man from Toledo, Ohio. Everyone knows that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

satin

May. 29, 2004, 12:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
only to say that I did apologize...and it was a REALLY relible source from John's own barn who said they watched it.....sorry if they lied, people have been known to do that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, like Bentley, have looked all over the BB and have not found an apology from you regarding that incident. It is interesting that you continue to blame others, when you could instead accept responsibility like a mature adult and apologize for your actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Have never met DMK (or her "friends"), don't even know who that is (conflicting information about being a guy from Florida, to a girl from Texas, to a nobody from Virginia)... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DMK is certainly not a nobody. However, most "somebodies" don't feel the need to constantly tell others how important they are.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Just going to sit quietly and wait for a PT... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If only you would sit quietly.

khobstetter

May. 29, 2004, 03:10 PM

Hi flour..thanks for the opinion... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

JustJump

May. 29, 2004, 03:24 PM

You know what would be so cool? If you (DMK, Kh'r) could take this @#$% to a PT or at least to another thread dedicated to "stupidity"...you know: anyone, from anywhere in the world can log into the COTH BB, otherwise known as the most active US equestrian website chat forum to see what the peeps here think about our team's chances in Athens, (including the breeders of the horses, for instance) and all anyone has gotten for the past 3 pages is a personal snit between an alleged journalist/supposed professional and a stubborn A/O who apparently has way too much time on her hands. ARE YOU PROUD TO BE COMING ACROSS they way you seem to be in this thread? GROW UP ALREADY people!!! The two of you, and others who have leapt to your respective defenses are demonstrating beyond a doubt that you are simply not suited to carrying on an adult conversation about this subject. Let go of this thread and allow it to go back on topic! (HINT: THE TOPIC WAS>>>THE OLYMPIC TEAM SELECTION!!<<<<

khobstetter

May. 29, 2004, 03:32 PM

I agree..waiting, and asked for a pt...

JulieMontgomery

May. 29, 2004, 04:08 PM

Thank you, JustJump........ about a thousand of us couldn't agree with you more! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ponybreath2

May. 29, 2004, 04:30 PM

I am sorry that I can't spend two hours reading this thread. But some of us have very busy times, although we enjoy reading the threads. My feeling is that I am really sad for Margie, but the Olympics has not much to do with how the horse show world in the USA will ever judge her ability, or her involvement in the sport from the grass roots level to the high end level. She has been a major role model for children and other profesionals for many years. She has been a person that inspired so many children to ride, given so much encouragement, etc. I am sad that she will not participate in the games, but her life long legacy is kindness, and hard work, and coming from no where, which every one says you cant't do any more. I am a "R" judge, I am older than Margie, and she has been hired to show hunters for me. She was one of my favorite pro riders, and it wasn't that long ago...and I am a pro. Again I am sorry that she lost her spot, but a medal is only something that rests in a box, Margie's legacy has been one of great ability, kindness, and encouragement to both young riders and other professionals. This should be on record. There are few like her. And the games are just that... games with a medal in a box somewhere. Margie's legacy of greatness and kindness and non ego driven crap will long exceed any medal. Bless her. I wish her all the best in life with her darling husband and to know that a medal is just again something that goes in a box. She will have a great riding and training life without ever attending the Olympics. My best to her, but stay off your leg... Or it will haunt you for way longer than your riding life...not worth it... there is a life after being a rider.

khobstetter

May. 29, 2004, 05:03 PM

Ponybreath2..wow that was well said!

In all the fall-tha-ra of the Trials and the Olympics and the Pan Am Games it is easy to over look that. She, and so many others do have an incredible legecy that deserves appreciation...it would be really nice if a whole bunch of our up and coming young riders could have personal contact with some of these guys....certainly and especially Margie....

Duffy

May. 30, 2004, 07:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ponybreath2:
Again I am sorry that she lost her spot... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with everything else in your post. But, just to clarify, Margie didn't "lose her spot". McLain would have been the one to "lose" his spot had Margie been put on the team with a "bye".

JustJump

May. 30, 2004, 07:34 AM

So...for the sake of argument...can we compare the international records of the riders who are on the team to...that of those who didn't make the team?

I'm not talking about AGA results, I'm talking about World Cup finals, Nation's Cup (against the German first string, for instance...), and big classes in Europe...

num1train

May. 30, 2004, 08:08 AM

You know, Beezie, Peter, Allison (I know she is the reserve), Mclain and Chris all have strong international records. Correct me if I am wrong but although Margie has the international experience, her placings have not been as strong as the others. I think Margie is an outstanding rider but I do believe we have the correct team in place for a chance at a winning a medal. JMHO

rucirius

May. 30, 2004, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by num1train:
Correct me if I am wrong but although Margie has the international experience, her placings have not been as strong as the others. I think Margie is an outstanding rider but I do believe we have the correct team in place for a chance at a winning a medal. JMHO <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you follow COTH and Practical Horseman I have read and you will find that MGE has been leading open rider at Aachen (Germany), St. Gallen (Switzerland), winner of such prestigious Grand Prix as Rome and Arneim, many times in the top ten in World Cup Finals, 3 medals (Silver from Winnipeg, Team Gold and individual Bronze from Santa Domingo) just to name a few of her accomplishments. Not strong enough for you?

num1train

May. 30, 2004, 07:14 PM

Like I said correct me if I am wrong.

I stand corrected.

Madame Butterfly

May. 30, 2004, 10:11 PM

I had the wonderful opportunity to interview Margie Goldstein Engle when I was in Wellington in March. This was after her accident on March 13 and before her birthday on March 31st. I sent her many of these forum emails (at least up to or through the 28th)...She has asked me to respond as follows:

She wishes the Team well. Her "beef" was and is with the Committee and being led on...she has NO beef with any of the riders! Again, she wishes the team well and hopes someday to change the selection process for the better.

alexandra

May. 31, 2004, 12:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pony Fan:
My solution...

Why not do what they did in the "ancient times" when I got first got involved in this sport and let the owner of Perrin "donate" him to the team for this Olympic period and the have Leslie Howard or Peter Leone ride him!

After all, both are incredibly talented, gifted riders with strong International backgrounds who happen to find themselves without a mount in an Olympic year. If the goal is to create a strong er US team, then send Perrin and one of these exceptionally experienced riders to Europe before hand and see if they can get it together. If not, oh well, if so, we have just improved our odds of a medal. I don't know guys but this method worked for us through US Showjumping's "Golden Years". Has anyone thought to give it another try? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This topic is very interesting to read. I was curious to see who will be competing for the US at Athens. Margie Goldstein Eagle is a name I know from over here, as well as Allison Firestone, Peter Wylde and Leslie Howard or Dello Joio. So it will be interesting to see how these riders compete. And I cannot understand why a rider/horse combination with consistant international success is left behind. (but well good for us ;-) )
So many things can happen on a flight or during the preparation competitions in Europe. Why isn't there a longlist (maybe 8) selected by trials. All those 8 are send over, competing at some additional events in Europe and than the final team is selected based on the actual form ?
I hope we never come into a situation where one rider tries to go to court to get himself on the team and that we have to change to a trial method aswell.
It happend that riders left the country because they were not selected for the team: Hugo Simon, now competing for Austria - living in Germany. And Sven Rothenberger now competing Dressage in the Netherlands (that decision might not have been wise, since the Dutch have also a lot of strong international dressage riders...)

I have to agree to pony fans suggestion. That idea would not have been totally out of the blue.
I do not remember which rider and at which international championships (Olympics or WEG), but somebody from the team gave his horse to another rider. I think, that that combination was so successful to win a medal ! This change of riders was even done at that event itself and not before. I really would need to look up when it was and who.

M. O'Connor

May. 31, 2004, 02:53 AM

It is interesting to note the positions of the US riders onthe FEI rankings list...it seems that the list could have been used in lieu of trials to make the team selection.

It can be viewed from a link on this page. (http://www.horsesport.org/fei/consult/consult_02/con_02_01.html)

JustJump

May. 31, 2004, 04:41 AM

Wow. Forgot about the FEI list...With the exception of Laura Kraut (who is on the Super League tour, right?) The top four in the trials are the top four in the rankings(except that Norman is in the rankings, too, as is Leslie)--and Alison Firestone, Lauren Hough, and Margie are similarly ranked, within one or two slots of each other...albeit much further down the list.

canyonoak

May. 31, 2004, 01:19 PM

Wow..just think..if the FEI list had been used, our team would be:

Beezie Madden-=-with horse of her choice, possibly De Silvio, who got hurt in the trisl;

Peter Wylde, with the incomparable, supple and fit Fein Cera;

Chris Kappler, with the wonderful Royal Kaliber;

and Norman Dello Joio, with Glasgow, who got hurt in the trials...

OK! 2 out of 4 ain't bad!

JustJump

May. 31, 2004, 02:44 PM

Isn't that 3 out of 4?

J. Turner

May. 31, 2004, 05:42 PM

Wow. Margie was fourth in the afternoon class today with Perin and a clear. Four faults with Jones. I'd hate to be the selection committee now. (I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but it's pretty "action speaks louder than words." I was a doubter of MGE's physical condition (not her spirit, honesty, integrity, or horse).

trailblazer

May. 31, 2004, 06:38 PM

But who should be kicked off the team to give Margie a spot? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

My Hunter Vandal

May. 31, 2004, 07:21 PM

I do believe that this team is going to be spectacular! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

JFJ

Jun. 1, 2004, 06:15 AM

I don't think a small class in Devon compares to the trials or even a Grand Prix, and there were only 9 in the class!! I am a fan of Margie but I think we have a great team with out her as well. If she wins the Grand Prix on Thursday night maybe the selectors can still take her to Europe along with the other 5.

SBT

Jun. 1, 2004, 10:39 AM

Here's a question: can't she (Margie) still go to Aachen and other international shows as an individual?

I actually had a dream last night in which I logged on to COTH and read an article stating that Perin's owner did sell all his horses, leaving Margie with nothing to ride. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I felt sooooo bad! Of course I doubt that will really happen, but man...I think I've been spending too much time on these Margie threads. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 1, 2004, 10:50 AM

Num1train posted what I was too chicken to post - the glaring fact that Margie's international record isn't all that spectacular, or consistent enough to be rewarded with a bye. She's outstanding at home, but put her on a plane and her results have not been anything special. Even with the results that Rucirius astutely posted, her record is really not THAT terrific when taken in context of how many times she's been abroad. That's not to say that shes not a fantastic rider - of course she is, and she does have some good wins abroad, but her international results are inconsistent; combine that with a serious injury and what is the mystery? Why she was even privately told she had a shot at the bye is beyond me. I also agree with JustJump - which was along the same lines. On a good note, it does seem like there have been some big and hopefully effective changes made. Leaving now to put my flame suit on.

Molly99

Jun. 1, 2004, 11:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SBT:
Here's a question: can't she (Margie) still go to Aachen and other international shows as an individual?

I actually had a dream last night in which I logged on to COTH and read an article stating that Perin's owner did sell all his horses, leaving Margie with nothing to ride. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I felt sooooo bad! Of course I doubt that will really happen, but man...I think I've been spending too much time on these Margie threads. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is the for foreign competions the show allows the US to send X number of riders. I would guess that what is being sent, is the number we are allowed to field, which might also account for why they simply didn't just take Margie as well.

FEI shows are not like we know here. You must be invited, there are ways to get the invitation issued to a specific person, but all entries must go through the USEF. My understanding is that the USEF could deny a person authorization to show at a certain event if they felt others were better suited, or if they person would be overfaced. It has been a long time since I read up on the exact procedures, but I recall speaking to people at WEF this year that there were "issues" in getting the US inviation to one of the events this summer. ie, the competition wanted lots of $$ from us to "invite" us.

And we think the politics here are bad.

Some know more details than, me... LaurieP???

fleur

Jun. 1, 2004, 03:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by special delivery:

lauriep - you are confused. Dawn Mills is mine. I may have turned over a new leaf, but I still own the alters.

Just a warm fuzzy old left leaning liberal! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey DMK, i thought members were only allowed one alter? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

SoEasy

Jun. 1, 2004, 05:09 PM

fleur - I strongly suggest you leave the Moderating on this BB to people who have the title. Thanks.

fleur

Jun. 2, 2004, 01:36 AM

I told you to drop it. That means drop it. SoEasy

lauriep

Jun. 2, 2004, 07:43 AM

You are correct, Molly. You must be invited to competitions like Aachen. And invitations are not easy to come by. Our standing as a Super League team gives us an automatic at the shows where these competitions are being offered (Aachen being one of them), but that only covers a team, not individuals, as I understand it. And that is one reason we fought so hard to obtain SL status last year, foreseeing the difficulty of obtaining these invitations.

And there is the matter of funding these riders. Money is VERY tight, as the last 4-5 years have turned many off from donating. So, funding an additional rider would have to be considered, too.

But our rules, as they are today, provide for 4 team members and an alternate to go abroad, with the second alternate on call here in the states. So, if Margie, under the rules of the bye, couldn't get an alternate position (stupid rule), and would have to replace the #3 position (McLain), which they elected not to do, then there really isn't a way she can go.

Coreene

Jun. 2, 2004, 09:23 AM

lauriep, seems there will be a few BBers in Aachen next summer - methinks you should arrange your sked (and that of the bosses) to be one of them. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The shopping, darling. Think of the shopping. After all, at the end of the day, that's really what it's all about, innit? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

mbp

Jun. 2, 2004, 06:31 PM

Reading the article, I thought Margie was very gracious about the team and the other riders - she couldn't have been more positive.

She has a situation where her owner made some big sacrifices so that she could take Perrin to the Pan Ams (and help insure that we could even GO to the Olympics). If her comments are true and correct, both she and that same owner, a big supporter of the sport, were then told that unless something completely unforseen happened, she had a lock on the bye. Well, nothing completely unforseen did happen. If they made those statements, then, after she and her owner made the time and $ and physical and emotional commitments that they did make, only to have the selectors reneg on what they told her - why should she keep it under the rug? I don't get that. If what she says is true, not only did they mislead her, but her owner.

It seems like it would be very wishy washy to just "make nice" when her owner has been shafted, at least IMHO. She was very lovely about the team. Personally - I'm not a MW fan either, but she didn't say anything about that and SHE did not bring up Aachen, although she might have. Personally, if the selectors had been playing fast and loose with their representations I don't think it should be swept under the carpet and it won't effect the support for the team. If the things she says are true, I think she owes it to the community and to her owner to air them, and she has done so in a way that is totally supportive of the team and the riders who are going.

Still a Margie fan.