Allrighty people, if you want your forum back, we need to get some things straight.

[Erin]

Hands down, this forum causes more trouble per capita than all the rest combined. That is going to have to stop.

I know the world of breeding is small, and that the vast majority of you know each other off the BB. And many of you are "competitors" in that you are breeding and selling horses in similar markets, whether geographic markets, sport markets, breed markets, whatever.

But you all need to STOP dragging your personal issues with each other onto the BB. We have warned about this many times before, and we are now officially fed up.

Spot, Norsire, Palomino Leopard WB -- I want to call you three out specifically because you all earn your livings in the horse world, I assume, and I am willing to bet garner clients from these BBs. And I want the other people who post here to know exactly what is going on.

Spot and Norsire have some feud going on that I don't understand (and don't care to) and have both been REPEATEDLY warned to keep it off the BB. In fact, I told them both at one time that they were not allowed to directly address each other... not that that lasted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Now, instead, Spot starts threads that name no names, but are surely known by some to be poking fun at Norsire. Spot has also had an alter specifically to go after Norsire. Norsire, on the other hand, accuses anyone who says anything negative about her of either being Spot or one of Spot's cohorts, and usually responds to such criticism by flinging mud back onto whoever participates.

Palomino Leopard WB, I don't know how you fit into this little quarrel, but it's obvious since you have now managed to work in jabs about a horse of Norsire's on TWO different threads that you're on a little mission.

I want everyone to read back over what I have described. Does this sound like a description of adults who run their own businesses and to whom the people on this BB might consider giving their business? Or does it sound like a bunch of catty teenage girls in a high school cafeteria?

I have no idea what issues you all have with each other in real life, and I DO NOT CARE. But again and again, despite my warnings, despite thread closings, despite threats of banning, you all keep sniping at each other. I don't care who starts it, I don't care who said what. It is going to stop.

And I'm not reopening this forum until we figure out a way to make that happen.

Suggestions?

[Erin]

Hands down, this forum causes more trouble per capita than all the rest combined. That is going to have to stop.

I know the world of breeding is small, and that the vast majority of you know each other off the BB. And many of you are "competitors" in that you are breeding and selling horses in similar markets, whether geographic markets, sport markets, breed markets, whatever.

But you all need to STOP dragging your personal issues with each other onto the BB. We have warned about this many times before, and we are now officially fed up.

Spot, Norsire, Palomino Leopard WB -- I want to call you three out specifically because you all earn your livings in the horse world, I assume, and I am willing to bet garner clients from these BBs. And I want the other people who post here to know exactly what is going on.

Spot and Norsire have some feud going on that I don't understand (and don't care to) and have both been REPEATEDLY warned to keep it off the BB. In fact, I told them both at one time that they were not allowed to directly address each other... not that that lasted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Now, instead, Spot starts threads that name no names, but are surely known by some to be poking fun at Norsire. Spot has also had an alter specifically to go after Norsire. Norsire, on the other hand, accuses anyone who says anything negative about her of either being Spot or one of Spot's cohorts, and usually responds to such criticism by flinging mud back onto whoever participates.

Palomino Leopard WB, I don't know how you fit into this little quarrel, but it's obvious since you have now managed to work in jabs about a horse of Norsire's on TWO different threads that you're on a little mission.

I want everyone to read back over what I have described. Does this sound like a description of adults who run their own businesses and to whom the people on this BB might consider giving their business? Or does it sound like a bunch of catty teenage girls in a high school cafeteria?

I have no idea what issues you all have with each other in real life, and I DO NOT CARE. But again and again, despite my warnings, despite thread closings, despite threats of banning, you all keep sniping at each other. I don't care who starts it, I don't care who said what. It is going to stop.

And I'm not reopening this forum until we figure out a way to make that happen.

Suggestions?

[Silly Mommy]

Yes,

Can we get the cat poop out of the sandbox, I wanna play!

Seriously - we can all gain important information from each other - you never know when something vital to your situation may pop up even from someone you don't happen to like. Since they live in freaking different countries, I just don't get it.

So you guys don't happen to like each other - get over it and ignore the other person. Although Erin, some of it has been pretty entertaing at times http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

[YankeeLawyer]

I cannot say that I have not observed some posters being quite mean to other posters. However, I do not think that closing the entire forum because a very small number of posters can't peacefully coexist is any more rational. Can't you just ban the ones who are causing problems? There are many wonderful posters on this board who are great sources of information and who also do a lot of good for others (eg, Aidan foal drive; contributions to Everlasting Hope's vet bills; saving Silverwood Farm; rescuing horses). So please don't let the board be run by those whom you identify as the lowest common denominator by shutting it down.

VHC

ps I express no opinion on who posted what because I disregard in-fighting and have no desire to keep track of who said what to whom first.

[Galileo1998]

Set up a PT where Norsire, Spot and everyone interested can yell at each other all they like and it won't have an effect on the rest of the board http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ???

Ok, maybe that's not a very productive solution...

Seriously I would say it's time to give a final warning. Any more and the offender gets the boot. Plain, simple, no need for further discussion http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[LLDM]

Erin - I want to plead for the SHB Forum to remain open, no matter what that takes. It has become a very important place for me in a number of ways. I believe this is true for many of us breeders (we don't get off the farm much). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I really missed the whole Oldenburg problem. In fact I came here becasue that shut down the breeders board I used to be on. I started posting here regularly about the time that died down. I remember the sticky thread warning about it and worried this forum would go away too.

I am not sure what you did to resolve the Oldenburg issue, but might it not work again for this? I am an Oldenburg breeder and care very much about those issues. But I have never had a problem avoiding that issue here. I am absolutely sure that won't be solved on a BB!

I know the large majority of us that post in this forum manage to avoid the "problem" threads. I am sure most of us don't care about these folks personal issues. I really bothers me that they might get us shut down. And I hate the fact that this forum has such a bad reputation. It hurts all breeders. That's the last thing any of us need in this market.

Considering how contencious threads get on the other COTH forums, it must be pretty bad for us to be "the worst". Do whatever you need to do Erin. Just please, keep us open.

Thank you and appologies from all of us who try to follow the rules and play nice.

SCFarm

[Equine Reproduction]

Wellll....being a moderator on a list that at times became quite the cat fight, we basically made certain subjects "off topic" and they were not allowed, under no uncertain terms, to be discussed. Period. If posters chose to disregard the rule, they were at that point, banned. I am unclear as to why that can't be done on this board? Is there perhaps a technical reason why not? Obviously, the offending poster could return under a different moniker, but it would become obvious fairly quickly.

I "do" agree with YankeeLawyer that shutting down the entire board because of a few bad apples is decidedly undemocratic <grin>...(sorry...couldn't resist especially considering the upcoming election). By shutting down the entire board, you have essentially stopped the flow of what is for the most part, an educational forum. As YankeeLawyer observes, you're allowing the entire forum to be run and behavior dictated by the perpetrators, and not the moderators.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
Now in the UK and US!
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

I will post a plead as well. I don't know what I would have done without this fourm during some of the last 18 1/2 months (Well, 16 months since I became a member.) These forums have given me SOOO much information I may have not had otherwise. I also hate the fact that this forum has the worst reputation. I have so much respect for these people and the information and experience they have. It is a shame that the mud slinging could shut this down for good.

I, for one, promise to play nicely, and hope that others will do the same, in order to keep the forum open. This is an EXTREMELY valuable tool of information for everyone, from first timers to folks who have been in the business for years. It would be tragic to lose this resource.

[Summershyne7]

Could we have a three strikes and your out rule?
If a person posted on a banned topic, or was especially nasty, that would give them a strike. Two more strikes would constitute a monthlong ban on the board. I'm not so sure that a permanant ban should be instituted, because 90% of people really do learn, at least after a bit. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Personally, I want to get into breeding, and I learn a lot from just reading random posts. I also agree that there is enough injustice in the world without the majority of rule-abiding posters paying for a few posters' erm..lack of judgment.

[Riggs]

I have never met any of the players, so I cannot comment except that I am sure in their private lives they are very nice people and probably dont act like that in their day to day businesses.

Based on what you have written, the activity on the board does seem kind of inappropriate and no doubt gives you more headaches than you need or want. However, you have said before that this is a private board and you can boot anyone off you need to. So I am not sure why you are asking us for our opinions?

Why not state this is the final warning and permanently boot any and all who continue this feud WHENEVER, even if it is a year from now.

[Erin]

The problem, YankeeLawyer, is that I'm generally a nice person and don't like to ban people who don't REAAAALLY deserve it. And some people are very good at making their swipes just vague enough, and just plausibly-deniable enough, that they know it's not quite far enough over the line for me to ban them.

That's part of the reason why I'm starting this discussion. I want EVERYONE to be aware of exactly what the situation is, in case I do have to ban some of these people... I think it's only a very small group of people who participate in these little tiffs or who even know what they're about, and I can imagine that most of the board would be pretty darn surprised if one of this group got banned.

But this issue has taken up a LOT of my time behind the scenes, and quite frankly, I'm sick of it. I'm not here to referee personal feuds, and I am really tired of being called on to intervene again and again and again.

Edited to add that it's not a matter of a certain topic being the cause of the problem, as was the issue with the Oldenburg stuff. Take a look at the auction thread Spot started that's #4 on the page right now for an example.

This isn't a matter of people not being able to talk about a certain subject. It's a matter of people not being able to resist trying to make others look bad.

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
And I hate the fact that this forum has such a bad reputation. It hurts all breeders. That's the last thing any of us need in this market.

Considering how contencious threads get on the other COTH forums, it must be pretty bad for us to be "the worst". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo to the first, and oh, you betcha this is the worst one for sure to the second! (Although, as Silly Mommy so correctly pointed out, it can be wickedly amusing for those of us who are not moderators. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif )

Erin, short of posting a sticky thread at the top of the forum (so we all can watch http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) where all the naughty kids can slug it out, I think your only real option is: This is your final warning; once more and you're outta here.

Oh, and you should be able to expand that to anyone who threatens to sue COTH or the mods because they get their knickers in a twist over a post they can't defend themselves from. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[cyriz's mom]

I, too, really want this forum to remain open. It has and is an incredibly valuable resource for me. Additionally, I have met...both online and now in person, some awesome that I never would have encountered otherwise.

It would be nice if everyone had the mentaility that we can all achieve more if we work together and lift everyone up instead of trying to climb the proverbial ladder by stomping on someonelse's fingers.

I don't know the anwer or really even have a good suggestion, Erin. However, if the same people continually cause the same problems...not just in this case, but on any of the forums, why not ban them?

I hope that someone comes up with a great idea so that we can all post again. The final testing for the 100-day is TWO weeks away...and to be really selfish, I NEED my support group http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Erin, thanks for all that you do. I'm sure that it's a pretty thankless job and enough to make you want to pull your hair out at times!

[darkmoonlady]

have you thought about a mediation forum, where if people have disputes they can go and get thier beef off on a constructive way...and shake hands a la softball...I would hate to lose this forum, I just found it! But having lost another message board to catty fights which in all honesty...are just that. I think during times of boredom folks use message boards to drum up drama as a form of entertainment. Its easy to sling mud when its on the computer but if you put those in fights, toe to toe in real life you would see a whole other side. As for a mediation forum, people would get ONE shot at airing the problem, with no slander or libel..just the facts ma'am, and it would be up to anyone who cared to read the posts to decide who was in the right, or just full o hot air, and whatever got said got said there and was deleted IN A DAY..no more..and if they kept up get a time out ban. Or some sort of digital scarlett letter...and also if they had a true issue could look to others more knowledgable for advice on how to resolve the problem. Just an idea...I come up with many only a few make sense...lol

[pintofoal]

Erin, please not us not forget some other real trouble makers who have reared their heads in this forum in the past and very recently--maybe it is the lunar eclipse that is bring this all out, whatever it is there has been a surge in activity that is for sure. I enjoy this forum though recently I haven't had much time for it, but miss it all the same. I think a resolution for the recent and past problems would be to post a "sticky" reminding all of US just not a named few (I think there are a lot of behind the scenes shenanigans going on, pointing out just three is just scratching the surface and really not hitting the nail on the head) of the golden rules: be nice, be polite, if it isn't something you'd not want to read about yourself (snippy comments) then don't post it about others. I've seen here and at other forums (not the COTH necessarily) stuff that no one WOULD EVER SAY to another's face, yet on the Internet they feel they are privileged too. I have seen here and on other forums ugliness that saddens me. I have asked myself and others what the he** is wrong with people--why is there so much pettiness, meanness and jealousy amongst such a small group that should be supporting each other as if to save their life's. I say give it the three strikes and your out rule: everyone starts at 0 strikes from here on out. Three warnings and that's it you are no longer a member or to participance on COTH for a full year, unless of course the offense is really offensive then that is it your out of here! Hope we can get back on track and that the aforementioned is helpful.

[dray]

Erin,

I was a person who fell prey to a substantial amount of crap, for lack of a better term, earlier this year. I've seen a lot of the posters turn passive agressive at the best opportunity.

I used to love this board and the intelligent discussions. The group was supportive and a great knowlede source, but over time,it has just semed to become a catfight in waiting. Life is just too short.

It was great to be able to login while I was doing phone work for my job. Now it's just not worth it. I can put in a horse tape to pass the quiet hours when they come.

When I have questions now,I just email or call someone. And I can credit this BB for a lot of those relationships. I am thankful for that.

I hope that you can fix it.
Donna
Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

[Karosel]

Yes I have noticed previous posters that were banned back again. If I was ever kicked off a bb I would be way too embarassed to come back again!

I agree with the three strikes your out, but it really needs to be enforced.

[STF]

You mean there was a fight here that I was not a part of?? You must be kidding!!! *sigh* Please make note that STF was not a part of the fight for once!! Thank you!!!


Now seriously, I agree with what Liz said in this last post!

LaNet

[horse_poor]

I know nothing about the feud and am somewhat scared to know....

I do not post in this forum a lot but I lurk as I am considering breeding my mare next year and this will be my first foal ever so I am hungry for knowledge...and I have learned a lot and have gotten some great sources--

I like the PT idea with those feuding...with a mediator-perhaps there are some misunderstandings that have been blown out of proportion?

[YankeeLawyer]

Erin, I do see your point and you shouldn't have to put up with that type of conduct. But I still don't agree that "punishing" all of us is less harsh than banning the few that cause problems.

For what it's worth, in my opinion this situation is self-correcting because it could not be good for business to behave like a loon. I don't know anything about the posters you named or what they said, but I have seen things posted by others that have convinced me never to do business with them. I just bought a lovely filly from another COTHer (in part thanks to this BB). That COTHer is great. I also found a place to board her through this BB, with yet another COTHer.

There are however some COTHers I would not ever consider calling because of the atttiudes they have consistently conveyed in posts.
So perhaps people should consider that before they attack other posters. As you have mentioned before, the horse world is small and this board is not that anonymous. It would be pretty awkward to find yourself showing in front of a judge whom you slagged off on this forum, for example.

VHC

[CathyKb]

Erin,
My hat is off to you for your incredible work on this forum and your patience!

A few bad apples or discussions have really tainted this forum. I for one have been very careful in posting and very careful which topic to post on, so I will not rock the boat.

I have met wonderful people on this forum and have learned information that no vet would ever know. We all have learned which people we would love to meet, do business with, or just be friends with. Also we have learned which people we would rather not associate with (which is few).

This forum is so needed. The support we receive here is not to be found anywhere else.

I think the three strikes is needed.

I am already having withdrawal symptoms!

[Karosel]

I disagree with letting "them" sort it out over a PT. COTH is not a medium for which they can use for bickering. In fact I think they would lose interest in a PT, afterall isnt the whole point of their bickering to make the other look bad? Without an audience what would be the point?

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YankeeLawyer:
For what it's worth, in my opinion this situation is self-correcting because it could not be good for business to behave like a loon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, YL, that doesn't seem to be true. You'd think it would be, but many, many breeders have been so outlandish in their behavior here, and it never seems to dawn on them that it could hurt their business.

Why, I don't know, but there you go. My guess is that some people don't have as long as memory as others do.

[Karosel]

From this forum I have come across several SO's that I would never do business with. On the other hand, I have met more that I would do business with ie Pintofoal, Fred and um um... others, Im just drawing a blank right now and cant remember all of their names!

[Nikita]

I understand Erin that you're fed up and I understand most people wanting the 3 strikes and you're out (or something similar) but how do you do it? I used to moderate a board - a different type of BB but very busy site - and not only is it tough to keep someone banned but also to prove that they meant what you *think* they meant. This isn't just one specific topic, this is one person supposedly "needling" another or wait - is it someone being overly paranoid thinking they're being needled. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif See what I mean? How do you prove that it's not just a set of badly phrased words or a topic that (honestly) accidentally strayed into a -danger zone-?

Also, I have no idea of the software here but I know I was banned off of a site because I dialed into the same isp as someone who was really banned. Do you ban the ip or just the user name? If it's the ip, then you may be banning innocent parties as well. If it's just the user name, there is nothing to keep anyone from signing up for a new one.... over and over and over.

In case you haven't figured it out, no, I don't have an easy answer for you. You're dealing with people and people have emotions, things happen and bad feelings result. Maybe we can just send any offending parties to The Manure Pile to have it out without moderation? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif And I'm not totally kidding either. They get their audience, we get our entertainment and it's removed from the corporate entity of COTH. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Either that or just keeping deleting the offending posts until they get tired of posting and not having it stay.

Whatever you decide, we all have to like it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Ashemont]

I'd hate to see this forum shut down permanently - I've met too many great people through it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So what are the options? Is it not possible to moderate posters? Is it either 'ban' or 'allow them to post whatever they want'? I moderate a Yahoo group and found that after placing certain troublemakers on moderated status and banning one extremely nasty poster it quickly became a nice civil place again.

If you can't moderate posts then I guess you're left with nothing more than a final warning and then ban. While I don't know the offenders personally I will say that had it not been for Norsire several years ago I would've never found two horses who had been stolen from us. Within 4 hours of my posting she had rallied the troups and located our filly and colt enabling us to reclaim the colt and get full payment on the filly. The usefulness of this forum is undeniable so please find a way to keep it going.

[Erin]

There is no one currently posting on this forum who was banned and then reinstated. Some posters have disappeared for a while voluntarily and then come back. And, I'm happy to say, there haven't been any major problems. (Knock on wood.)

And yes, I know that there are other major troublemakers wandering around out here that cause problems. Yes, some of that has resurfaced recently, but it is not the reason why the forum was closed today. And the reason why I'm making such a big deal out of this is because many of the posters involved are very frequent constructive contributors to this forum. They're not people who just show up once in a while to wreak havoc.

The volume of posts on this forum is HUGE. None of the moderators are breeders, and most of us only have a cursory knowledge of the issues and players. Frankly, we don't spend all that much time on this forum unless there is a problem, so I know we miss a lot, and things generally have to get pretty snarky before someone hits the alert button and lets us know. When we do catch someone acting inappropriately, they often turn around and say "But So-and-so said something even WORSE last week!" It is very hard for us to police this forum thoroughly enough to catch all the cattiness. That, in itself, is pretty sad.

Maybe the moderators are just going to have to make a point of reading every post on every thread on this forum for a while and really be strict about things for a while. Usually we try to stay out of things unless they get bad, and unless someone repeatedly and blatantly violates the rules, I like to give people a chance to stick around and contribute productively. But maybe that just isn't going to work here. For such a big board, we really do not ban people very frequently, and I really hate to take such a heavy-handed approach... but maybe that is what we will have to do.

On the other hand, while I think it behooves everyone to remember that COTH pays the bill for this playground, YOU people really make the forum what it is. You set the tone for the community. And for some reason, the atmosphere on this forum is distinctly different from the others.

I don't know. It seems like a community almost entirely comprised of adults should be able to police itself a little better.

And yes, I do know there are plenty of others who are guilty of not playing nice sometimes. Hell, we ALL are. But this particular strain of not-nice-ness has been going on for SO long, that I really felt attention needed to be called to it in particular. I have had to intervene twice in just the last two weeks for this same group of people. That's just way, way over the line.

[myhorse]

Please,please do not close this forum. It is by far one of my favorites. There are so many diverse horse owners on here and I have learned so much. I go to some breed based forums and lets just say anything going on here is minor compared to their dailey posts. I like this place because it IS so laid back. I don't know the best way to stop the bad seeds but I don't want to suffer because of them. The only thing I can think is ban them or just ignore them.If no body responds they will soon go away.

[Erin]

Nikita hit the nail on the head. Calling the "strikes" is very, very difficult, and is why I have not actually banned any of the offending parties yet. Like I said, I'm generally a nice person and I don't want to ban someone who truly doesn't deserve it.

The way banning works with this software is that we can suspend any individual's account. I can simply turn off Nikita's (for example) posting privileges, and she will no longer be able to log in or post as Nikita. She could always sign up for a new username, though.

We also usually ban the person's IP, which means they cannot post under ANY name from that IP, and cannot sign up for any new names. But we only ban an IP if it is unique to that person and won't affect other posters. That's not always the case... if it's not, there's no way we can really ban the person from signing up for another username and just starting to post again. However, it still generally works because if the person has to be sneaky and hide their identity because they're banned, generally they can't stir up whatever trouble they were causing before anyway, because we'll figure out it's them and just ban their new username. Eventually people usually get tired of signing up for new email addresses and they go away. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

I really don't know any of the offending people personally, or their gripes, but I do know that during my years on this forum, that ALL of them seem to be VERY nice people - to everyone BUT each other. Why is it that if your best friends make the same mistakes as your enemies, we understand, accept the mistake, overlook it to a degree, or just pretend it never happened and go on. I will always remember that some of the people I have had the biggest problems with, have ended up my very best friends and vice versa. Mabye the answer is to just be very liberal about deleting threads that begin to toe that line.

[jilltx]

Tolerance : Graciously accepting differences.


I have always thought that the COTH mods did a great job at allowing "personal expression" while keeping cattiness in check. I think it's sad (although sometimes thoroughly entertaining http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) that we can not just get along and play nice.

Please don't make Erin take our toys away!!

[RoseWood Stables]

Erin,
I agree that things tend to get out of hand on this forum. I chalk it up hormones and strong minds that don't always see things the same way http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif.People can write things that aren't taken the way the writer means them, this is an unfortunate thing that happens when you can't speak to someone face-to-face and see there body language and facial expressions when they say it, you also lose the emotion that the person is trying to get across. I believe that some controversy is a good thing as it keeps us breeders from getting into a rut in breeding and on-line lives/relationships http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. This BB is a fountain of knowledge, I can jump on a say, 'hey what do you guys think of this?' and people jump in and say this, or try that! I have learned so much from the breeder's on this BB. I am young, 20, and have just crossed over into the world of breeding from competition.

I also see that things do get snarky quite frequently and we do need to watch our language and act like the adults we are. I feel that if we read what we write BEFORE we post it and think to ourselves,'huh, would I be able to say to this person's face?', or,'How would I feel if that was said to me?' (I know back to the first grade we go http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) we could avoid some of our blow outs. Please do not take the bb away from us.

I think we should have the rules enforced more firmly and that if it came down to banning some one, so be it. It may take one or two people being banned for people to understand that you are serious. I totally get this as I remember being grounded quite frequently by my mother when I was younger for over stepping the boundries she set up. I hope this can be resolved quickly as I am bursting to post a question http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif.

Jessie

[Karosel]

I think it would help if we all made a conscious effort to self-moderate this forum. What I mean is that when we see a post that is obviously heading the wrong way we should report it. I think it would help Erin out a lot. Maybe we could do this for a while to really cut down on the cattiness, and hopefully things will return back to a more steady state on the bb.

[Bliss]

Just another plea to keep this forum. I'm a future breeder! My family bred horses, my friends breed or bred horses, I love mares and foals - as soon as I get my baby out of the house it is on to horse babies!

I've gotten so much information out of this forum, you'd be amazed, Erin, if you aren't here that often. I've "met" good breeders and bad breeders, had offers of help out of the blue, and more importantly - I'm learning how the systems and structures that govern our sport in America are run.

I'm beginning to understand who is who in our governing bodies, and how things can be changed.

I like to think that I'm the future of sporthorses in America http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and I've learned more lurking here than I have in reading numerous publications and attending tons of meetings. Really.

The COTH board, and the BREEDING FORUM in particular, is where people exchange information and get things done. I know the new awards at Devon had some input from this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif And what about Omom's letter she's working on? This is important stuff!!

If we have a few posters who can't keep their fingernails to themselves, get rid of them. As a not too frequent poster, I don't notice the fights. For me, and I think for many, the good far outweighs the bad. Please think about what you'd be doing to many of us if you shut down this forum.

The moderators and the COTH have done a GOOD THING for the community by making this space available - y'all should pat yourselves on the back every day!

In my job, we have this rule - if someone takes up too much time, they aren't worth it. Only the manager can determine how much "too much" is. But if they cross the line, and they've been warned, they are not welcome back. Its as easy (and as hard!) as that. We have it down to a percentage, actually, that we predict in any given year will not be permitted to stay. We lose time and $ on them, but after a certain point it is destructive to the organisation, so they have to go.

Like I said, I'm not really sure what this particular fight is about - but I'd hate to see this opportunity lost because a few people can't work things out. B

[Tawna24]

&lt;pops head out of hole, waiving white flag...&gt;

I like reading and learning from this site. There ARE a few nice people here. I don't like the bashing- hence my choice to enter into "lurk" status only.

If you all need a place to post until this is resolved, even if for a day, feel free..
There is a sporthorse breeding forum here (http://www.americanasporthorse.com/forum/)
Would be a shame if someone had a real issue they needed advice on while the lock down is in effect. If anyone wants to vent, or needs advice, feel free- just a temporary fix for those who may need "sporthorse breeding forum" advice. Then, when the COTH SHB forum is back up, everything will be back to normal and we can continue to learn from each other. Like things should be. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sometimes others ruin it for us all. (Even ones who just "lurk" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif) I just thought I could try to help/ease the withdrawl for a few of the nice posters!!

&lt;Crawls back in hole. Happy breeding!!&gt;

[Cartier]

I don’t have a clue about the subtext (if any) of the Auction vs. Private sales thread. Possibly there were some hidden agendas … I don’t really know what someone ele's motive are(or were). And I don’t know the people mentioned, other than what I have read of them (and from them) over the years on this and other forums. I have had private emails from some of these people, two of the posters on the Auction thread PTed me, and one emailed me privately. She asked that I keep what she wrote private, and I will, but I can say that she questions the motives of certain individuals and feels the comments made were unfair, untrue and damaging to her breeding program. She may be right. I do not know. If she is right I can see her concerns. No one likes to be attacked and not have a chance to respond.

…

We have colored sporthorses and have noticed over the years that Colored breeders are a pretty feisty group. There is a long tangled history with these registries and these people, no one party is all good and no one party is all bad. Generally we avoid them all. But I was drawn to some of the horses mentioned in the thread. And, with respect to the topic itself, I think Warmblood breeders in this country would benefit from using auctions as a way to our sell top-quality Warmbloods. Specifically, we would benefit from a major shift in thinking that Warmblood Auctions are dumping grounds for sub-standard horses. We would benefit from having more high quality Warmblood Auctions like those in Europe (although Ilona makes a good point that the seller at an auction does not have the ability to screen the kinds of homes provided by potential buyers). I was attracted to the thread because (on the surface) I thought it was interesting. Who knew about any subtext?

From the perspective of a moderately interested spectator, who is not involved in any dispute with any of the posters on the thread, I did not find it objectionable, disruptive or over-the-top. In fact, I would never have picked up on the “hot” issue at all if it hadn’t been pointed out. I think that the private nature of the dispute was in fact -so private - that it slipped by the rest of us completely. But maybe everyone else got it and I (alone) missed the point.

Frankly, I am rather surprised that the thread was cited as the disrupting thread.. there was another thread (which I think is now deleted) that I thought was much more provocative. Some of the comments made about a certain individual/ business (irrespective of their merit) were rather strong.

I have seen other posts on threads where people disagree about an issue and then take their disagreement to a very personal level. I think doing so is wrong. It is one thing to have a strong opposing opinions and dispute facts; it is quite another to make the argument personal and personally attack someone with whom you disagree, e.g. calling people whores, trolls, etc.

I can see where some might find inconsistency in what is allowed to be said about certain specific individuals. For example, I think there is a difference between saying, “I had this specific experience with this specific individual (or business)” and saying something so general as, “This person (or business) is evil, I hate them, they are whores, they are bad, etc.” The former is acceptable; the latter is too personal.

I think it is extremely problematic for anyone to presume to know the motives of another. I think it is equally problematic (and usually very manipulative and self-serving) to advance speculation as fact. It is offensive. And, some people read the printed word as fact when it is merely speculation. I read people tossing wild, fanciful, subjective accusations around, e.g. “I know you really meant XYZ, I know you’re true motives are XYZ, etc. ” and I think those speculations are as harmful to informative public discourse as the posts (and posters) they reference.


I just read Erin’s post on the H/J forum and did NOT in any way mean to be referencing her in anything I have said here. I know nothing what-so-ever about the H/J forum

[Spot]

Erin - I agree there is a problem. You do not have to be a genius to figure that one out.

But to insinuate that I am "recruiting" people from across North America to poke fun at, or make fun of anyone, is a little ridiculous. I think that everyone has their own likes and dislikes in people, stallions, personalities, etc and this is really no exception.

The auction thread? Again - I think it was iluvgoldies that made the first mention of size in that thread. For the record I dont know who iluvgoldies is, wouldnt know him or her if I tripped over them in the street, nor have we ever spoken in person via email or any other medium, so to again *hint* that I have somehow "recruited" them to speak on my behalf or fight battles on my behalf is bizarre.

And I think again it was AuntieSha and sophab that kept coming back to the height issue that was raised- not me, not Norsire and there were others going back and forth on that issue - not the 2 "guilty" parties involved.

PLW and I do converse at times via email - do I "tell" her to come on the board and "coach" her what to say? I hardly think so ...

Since the advent of "EVE" - no - I post as Spot and no one else. Eve is very very clever - she can see through any nefarious "alter" schemes out there ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I, too, think that the SHOC topic was FAR more contentious and explosive than this one was - at least no one here was threatening to blow people up as was going on in that H/J thread ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In closing, I guess whatever "product" you put out into the marketplace you should feel darned proud of and PLEASED if someone calls attention to it. I know that I would be, if someone found a picture or a mention of something that I had bred many years ago. Even though this topic at hand WAS about auctions versus private sales and probably 80%+ of the posts dealt with that exact topic, why was it such a brouhaha when someone DID mention one of the other fillies on the For Sale section of that link? Believe it or not, what this filly was going to fetch at auction IS a big topic of discussion on other racing boards and now that she has sold privately, the speculation is on ...

It is no secret that I *AM* interested in coloured Thoroughbreds, I *DO* know Nancy and I *AM* interested in what her filly went for as I *HAD* been mulling around the possibility of selling my Faux Finish filly at auction next year. Why is it such a stretch that I posted this link to her coloured filly that was being sold at auction??? Nothing more sinister than that and if you go through that entire thread, I think that anyone/everyone can agree that in 100% of my posts, I kept EXACTLY to that topic at hand. Except when others diverted it to other subject matters

Erin - I can understand your problem and no - I dont want you to play "thread police" on the SHB or anywhere else. Its ridiculous to do so.

Perhaps one day when I am in VA and in the Purcellville area, I will give Bridget a call and we can chat over a cup of coffee and air out any/all grievances that have gone on in the past, and try and understand each others concerns and issues that have led to where we are today. And hopefully, neither one of us will toss coffee at each other ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

:Spot:

[Oldenburg Mom]

Erin,

Your initial post starting this topic said <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... It is going to stop. And I'm not reopening this forum until we figure out a way to make that happen. Suggestions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about this:

1. Ban the current offending members for a week, two week, month, whatever you think is an appropriate time limit. As you have said, it's a time out.

2. Warn offending members this is the last time this will be tolerated.

3. "Appoint" a few frequent, well-respected posters on this forum (equine-reproduction comes to mind) as poster-police over the next few weeks. This might alleviate you and your colleagues having to monitor every post.

4. Define (?) what is inappropriate behaviour/posting—for the millionth time. And give notice that there will be zero tolerance.

5. Revive the chocolate method of dealing with problems. It has worked in the past, maybe we just need to be reminded of it.

6. Remind people that "troll management" is the best way to deal with nasty, divisive, snarky people: ignore them, don't respond to their gibes, don't give them any ammunition. Realize they are pathetic, small-minded people and pity their behaviour.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Huge disclaimer: these suggestions are not pointed at any individual person or poster. I didn't even read the threads involved and I don't know about what the problem is. Erin asked for suggestions. I made a few. That's all.</span>

[Daydream Believer]

I also request that this forum remain open. I find it an incredible resouce as a start up breeder. I am a moderator on another board and it can be really tough sometimes to draw the line and even the mods will be divided on what, if anything, should be done about someone. If someone comes to our attention as a consistent troublemaker, the mods, admins and board owner will vote on what to do...warn, ban or not ban...and then the majority wins. Perhaps you mods can have a similar plan and just put it up to a private vote amongst yourselves on who stays or goes as you are the ones who have to keep the peace.

I have always felt that this forum was very volatile and have tried to avoid hot topics here.

[Lianne]

I second Tawna's invitation! We'd love for you guys to mosey on over and start some thought provoking discussions about SHB! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To those who have already posted or are lurking: welcome! welcome!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[sophab]

Spot-
I don't know why you felt the need to drag me into this, I think I am generally one of the lower profile posters around here, AuntieSha (yes that is my sister) is even lower profile than I am.
I did not bring up the topic of height, however knowing the heated nature of this board, and that Bridget probably wouldn't get to say her piece regarding that subject-which I don't know how it ended up on your thread to begin with-I felt compelled to say "hey, what's really going on here". I put 2 posts on a 4 page thread. How pray tell was I continually coming back to the issue?
I also made a concerted effort both times I posted to bring the thread back to where it began, and where it belonged. A perfectly civil conversation about sporthorse auctions which I was rather enjoying. So please, don't insinuate that I had some major wrong doing here.
I have watched many of the posts around here, heated and otherwise. I have always tried to keep an open mind about everyone. I don't let the fact that Bridget is a friend-and one that I am honored to have-interfere with that objectivity. If you'd like to get to know me too, I really am a nice person, and welcome the opportunity. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Now, as always, back to the topic at hand. I think we should have a time out paddock. If anybody acts up or acts out, their actions will be posted, kinda like a local police log. i.e. "Sophab was put on a 2 wk suspension at 3:34 pm on 1-1-05 for continually bringing up topic of height, sticking out her tongue and saying 'nanny nanny boo boo' while waving her hands fingers splayed from her ears, and taunting AuntieSha by saying 'your horse is a fathead and mine is perfect and let's not forget that your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries" (or something like that) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Perhaps if we are held accountable for our words and actions in a public forum, we will think twice about what we do or do not say.
Ok, if you all think it's moronic, it's ok. But I like that idea myself.

[Halfhalting]

Please don't shut down this forum! I haven't posted much since selling my horses (new baby, relocation, etc etc), but I am an avid lurker - usually 3-4 times a day! I look at this forum exclusively for the latest breeding information and contacts. I WILL be buying another horse in another year or so, as well as a pony, so being aware of the happenings in the breeding world is very important to me. I want to know what is selling, who is breeding, how the stallions are competing, and what my breeders are planning for the future. Plus, many of the stories are funny! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But seriously, I like honest information about horses and the breeding industry-this forum is the only way many of us are able to keep up to date.

We don't all have the same version of the "ideal" horse in our minds, so recognizing differences and different attributes about our mares, stallions, and offspring (not to leave out any geldings!) is VERY informative. Lets continue to be able to discuss these differences WITHOUT taking them personally or as a jab. Maybe that will reduce defensive posting.

OMoms recommendations seem well thought-out, I second them. Sophabs "accountability" time-out-paddock plan seems like a great addition also.

[Home Again Farm]

Erin,

I wouldn't want your job. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif But I do hope that you can help us find a way to keep this forum open.

I have made contacts with people from around the world here. I have shared their joys and their sorrows -- and they have shared mine. These folks kept me and little Ballerina going through a couple months of agony and fright last summer. I have learned things here that I might never have learned elsewhere about so many things -- from equine repro's latest research to what new stallions are heading to the US, to the newest thoughts on equine nutrition, DOD, so many things. Too many to list.

I would hate to see this all go up in a poof of smoke because some folks can't restrain themselves. I agree with the idea of suspending individuals rather than making the entire population suffer. In general, we don't know one another personally, so can't easily call an offender and say in a friendly way, "Maybe you need to think through what you type before hitting that post button." Though, maybe we could PT them and hope it didn't backfire. I don't know.

We should all bahave like adults. We should be responsible for what we post (hence my user name that tells you all precisely who I am). If we would not say something to someone else in a public setting where the world knew exactly who we are, we should not post it here. Simple as that.

Erin, I hope we can find a solution.

Beacause, I need to tell Reg C how Reggie got his name and can't because the blasted thread is closed down!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Home Again Farm]

I just read Auntie Sha's idea of a time out paddock and I like it!! Can we make a dunce cap smiley to go with it. The number of dunce caps signifies how many weeks out they get? Don't know if it is technologically feasible to do, but I like the concept! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[AuntieSha]

Spot-

Back off... please. I have never attacked you, your friends, or your horses. I did not bring up any topics, especially not the height issue you have accused me of.

I am generally a lurker on this site, gaining valuable information, gawking at beautiful babies, and taking opportunities to show off my fathead err... filly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (who I am as intensely proud of as anyone else on this board). I am not trying to start or get in the middle of anyone's feud. I hoped to get some undeserved bad press started about a respected breeder diverted away... but I have no intentions of being part of anyone's grudge match.

Please do not throw mud at me. I did not earn it, nor would I ever do it to you.

I third Sophab's timeout paddock. I guess my kid sister has good ideas... every once in awhile... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-Shannon

*** Why can't we all just get along???? ***

[Lord Helpus]

I also really enjoy this BB. I would hate to see it shut down, just when I am getting into breeding sport horses and I am learning so much.

One suggestion (and I am jumping in here after only reading P. 1, so apologies if this has been discussed to death): Why rely on Erin and the other mods so much? Why do we sit back and watch these trainwrecks, catfights, whatever you want to call them, develop?

Let's ALL help Erin do her job. Call offenders on their behavoir. Make it acceptable to be a tattletale. Gang up on offenders. Shout them down. Tell them that we will not allow them to risk our BB being closed down.

We are adults. We should not need Erin to tell us what is acceptable behavior. We can tell if jabs are being made. We know past histories and know how these threads get out of hand. So, fellow posters, let's moderate ourselves. Let's clean up our own back yard.

[Fairview Horse Center]

eeehhhh hmmmmm Let's not turn THIS thread into a "he said, she said" fight http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[elizabeth]

Well, to Lord Helpus's point,

COME ON, SPOT. Grow up. Look what you started right here, on this "fixing things" thread. How ironic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And AuntieShea and your sister, why wouldn't you just IGNORE Spot?

Just because someone dishes it up, doesn't mean you have to bite on it. Did y'all skip fourth grade?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is like some odd sociology experiment.

I think Lord Helpus's idea is a good one, though my sense is that the offenders lack the personal restraint to TAKE the pubic scorn and translate it into a compulsion to knock it off.

Just my opinion. (Oh, and not that it is relevant here, but I actually never thought Old School was out of line on the other thread. If he wants to call McLain out on likely being abusive, God bless him. It seems to me that those sorts of statements about a public figure are more relevant to the broader "discourse" than are Spot et al's personal minutia quibbles. But, again, just my opinion.)

[LLDM]

Erin - I see the problem with finding "the line", esp. since you mods are not here all that often. And only called in when people are crossing it.

However, I have heard you tell people to "leave the moderating to the moderators" too. Often I have been tempted to tell folks to "knock it off" or to "chill, because that's not what someone meant".

So, do you need a dedicated SHB moderator? I am sure someone here could qualify as reasonable enough. If they already post a lot it might not be a stretch for them. You could ask some of the people who are always reasonable. One of them would probably work.

Or, could you deputize a few people here to tell folks to "put a lid on it" and only call you if folks don't? They could then fill you in on the background issues, so you know if they deserve banning.

Or, should we all be more proactive in the "self policing" department?

I know all of these options have their own problems, but from your perspective would one of them work?

Hope that helps.

SCFarm

[STF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We have colored sporthorses and have noticed over the years that Colored breeders are a pretty feisty group <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree as I have noticed that too?!? Dont understand why either.


In the long run and the long term we need to look at the arguement and ask ourselves, is this really going to matter a week from now? Is a internet brawl really worth the effort?

Come on people, get over it - move on!

[Jasmine]

Perhaps a SHB moderator would work. I kind of like that idea. Some person or people that is/are here frequently, and not likely to let personal feelings get in the way of moderation.

Of course, with breeders, that might be a tough combination to find!

[Reg Corkum]

I am not sure my voice carries much weight given my status but I hope if any decisions are made it is with consideration to the big picture.

Many very nice people come here to use this as an invaluable source of communication and to have that removed by the actions of a small group of possibly bored individuals is a difficult choice I am sure.

[talloaks]

LordHelpUs posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Let's ALL help Erin do her job. Call offenders on their behavoir. Make it acceptable to be a tattletale. Gang up on offenders. Shout them down. Tell them that we will not allow them to risk our BB being closed down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy!!!That would make a mess!!! The last thing this board needs is everyone ganging up on offenders, whether perceived or not. That would make things worse.

Each poster has to be responsible for his/her own actions, and try their best to be considerate and not offend others. Remember Thumper's mothers remark to him in the movie Bambi? "If you can't say anything NICE, don't say anything at all!!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Draygonfyne]

It would be a shame if such an informative forum was shut down due to the behaviour of a select few.......

I understand that banning is difficult due to the variety of reasons already posted. What if the "guilty parties" received 1 or 2 week suspensions for questionnable conduct. Perhaps that would give the posters reason to pause and reflect on what they've written (veiled comments included) before hitting the submit button.

And...if the suspension was broken (that in and of itself is easy to prove)....they can then face being banned.....

[shoos]

I am really obtuse, I never even noticed it going on, I guess I don't read that carefully.

If you have a problem with the above mentioned people then ban them. What are they going to do? They don't own the site, you do.

Do whatever YOU want. I don't care one way or the other.

This is a sporthorse breeders forum, color doesn't get scored in a dressage test or a jump off. Let's stick to the sport we are breeding for?

If you are tired of the crap then get rid of them. I tend not to read posts about colored horse this or that so I am not aware of the current tension.

Happily oblivious.

[nsm]

Erin--I too will put in a big plea not to shut down this forum, and would like to say thank you for all your hard work doing a thankless job. This forum is extremely valuable to so many people in terms of knowledge shared, community service, ideas exchanged, ect.
While I am more of a part time poster, and stay wide of threads that even get testy so I have no real clue what exactly is going on, so couldn't begin to comment on it, I would say I fail to understand why any poster should become nasty or start trouble as forums are as I said an exchange of ideas and /or information, even if one disagrees, a different view point can be given, yet retain respect for the other party. That is a key word--respect . As to problems, so often I read people screeching about a problem, to me, unless you have a solution, or a way to better it, you don't have the right to complain. In a debate, the idea is to sway the other party to your side, this is never done through vitriol, it is done through positive, convincing logical answers. Everyone deserves respect for their ideas or thoughts, even if they differ, that is just common decency and that too is democracy.
I have never run a forum, and can only imagine what a time consuming and difficult job it is, and again I thank you for that, so it is difficult for me to pose solutions as I have no clue how these work or what is in actuality viable, but the posts regarding a time out/warning and a three strike rule do seem make sense. There is NO NEED whatsoever for attacks on individuals for their view point, or their horses or themselves, that is a disgrace, one can RESPECTFULLY disagree and intelligently point out differences laying out facts. Particularly professionals in the industry, we need to retain professionalism and behave accordingly. People that don't show respect, are prone to attacks on others ect., aren't needed here. There are times all of us slip and become emotional and don't think what we are really saying or how it is coming out, hence a time out or warning would be a good thing, but those that repeatedly are offensive should be banned. Most of us don't want to hear it, and it is just that-OFFENSIVE. In closing the forum, the few are punishing the many, and that is wrong, if they are chronic problems, those few need to go, not the vast majority of us.
Thank You---Nancy Maloney

[Sportpony]

I'm another that would hate to see this shut down. I enjoy reading the posts, I've learned things I didn't know and I've made lots of useful and interesting contacts with people I would never have "met" otherwise.

Maybe my attitude is a bit extreme, but if it is a question as to keeping the board up for the benefit of the people that can use it in a responsible manner and shutting it down because of the few who cannot manage reasonable restraint ... I vote for banning the problem posters and letting the mature, reasonable posters continue to enjoy the benefits of the board.

I'm not interested in the infighting so personally I simply ignore the threads where it happens.

I've dropped a couple of lists I've been on because the lists did not monitor the posts closely enough and allowed these things to develop unhindered. I don't have the time or energy to sift through messages and find the information I find interesting and useful.

I'm on two other lists that are models of successful moderating ... if you're warned and don't stop, you're off.

There are some 'alter' boards that allow unrestrained posts by posters who have anonymous names and are allowed to post anything about anyone as long as the names are at least thinly disguised. People who want/ enjoy this type of unrestrained and blatent mud-slinging and slandering can go to those boards and post to their heart's content without bothering the rest of us.

Erin ... I agree with all those who have said you have a near-impossible and definitely thankless task of monitoring this board. But I would hope that you can manage to establish something that will make your job easier and solve the problem without shutting it down.

[Lianne]

"This is a sporthorse breeders forum, color doesn't get scored in a dressage test or a jump off. Let's stick to the sport we are breeding for?"

shoos - it's precisely that kind of attitude that is the MAIN problem with this forum. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[HFSH]

I see as usual I am late to the party. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin, please don't shut us down.

I saw the suggestion of a 3 strikes rule. As someone who moderates other boards, I've thought about this, and I won't do it. I give one warning and make it clear that the next time is it, they're done, banned, gone. The problem with 3 strikes is people will argue with you endlessly over each and every strike you give. Tell them once that they are within a hair of being banned permanently, 99% behave themselves.

As far as the aforementioned group of troublemakers, personally, I find that 95% of the threads that they start are blatent advertising for their stallions. I know we all brag about our horses which can be construed as advertising, but those people continually cross the line. I'm also sick to death of reading about sabino horses, but that's just my opinion and I don't read them anymore. Heck, I posted a *joke* {poke poke} thread pointing to some canter horses who had their legs painted with poltice. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Anyway I do hope CoTH keeps this forum open. Erin, quit being so nice and tell them to *knock-it-off* or else. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[horselesswonder]

Erin, I don't post on this forum, but I do occassionally pop in to see if anything interesting is going on. This thread certainly qualifies.

It seems that no one wants this forum shut down, which is understandable. What I do not understand is your reluctance to ban those who have been hashing out personal disputes for years to the detriment of the forum. Being nice and banning certain individuals are unrelated, IMO. Why not hold adult posters who have ignored repeated warnings responsible for their actions? Certain individuals on another BB make jabs at me fairly frequently. I ignore them. Because I am an adult and capable of doing that. I would assume that anyone capable of running a breeding business should also have the wherewithall to keep his or her fingers away from the keyboard. You may be a cat-herder, but you are not a kindergarten teacher. If banning these individuals would make the forum a nicer place for the "law abiding" majority, there's your solution. Just my .02.

[hansiska]

I too was oblivious about the problem, mostly because I was reading other threads that were really important to me.

Horse breeding is something that one tends to do in isolation. My horse breeder friends tend to be miles away or further, and I've met many on this BB. Because of the isolation, and because of the instant access to experienced breeders here, I'd hate to see it closed.

As a high school English teacher, I can tell you that bad behavior tends to continue if there are no consequences. So, we need to come up with some consequences, as we did in the ISR/OLD debate, and stick to them. It would be horrible for so many of us to lose the benefits of this forum over the misbehavior of a few.

In terms of consequences, there should be a printed "rule" page, maybe, stipulating that you will have x-number of warnings before losing your privledges for x-amount of time. This would make it easier on the monerators, too, who always seem stuck with guiding a consensual solution, when really they should be able to say "Three strikes, you're out. So sorry, but you were aware of the rules, you got the warnings, and you brought this on yourself."

[Riggs]

There have been some excellent points here.
One of the things I do to pay for my equine addiction is mediation.
In reading Erin's reasoning, I think two things need to be addressed when reasoning why one person might get banned over another.

1. It is a private site and you can ban because you dont like the way someone spells their name if you want: end of story

2. It doesnt matter what finger pointing occurs when you decide to call someone on a problem. You are not talking about them at this time, you are talking to and about the person you are talking to and about. The other person can be investigated and dealt with on a separate issue. No point in letting people sidetrack things.

Again, I bet all the people who get carried away from time to time are very nice people with friends, family etc who think they are great and love them. They are not evil people and probably run profitable businesses on a day to day basis. It is just a matter of emotions getting in the way, which is human (think road rage as an example!!!) but unfortunately the rules dictate that they cannot let this happen. Like any law, rules cannot be broken FOR ANY REASON ('But officer'!!) without repercussion but people will try explaining their way out of a ticket, or other charge. Doesn't matter. As soon as we start talking to one other person in this world, there will be consequences to our behaviour and we have to live within that framework. Doesnt matter what the other person does, they have to live with the consequences of THEIR behaviour too, but that is not the issue when Erin is dealing one on one.

[Gold Dust]

Are we all forgetting one thing here. This site is owned by COTH. Erin, per say, works for them. They can choose to do whatever they want and don't you think we should respect it? Hell, I may be the minority here but good for her. Also I feel H/J needed more of a time out but hey, that was the call made by the powers that be. If It was me this same thread would be over there and they would all be crying the blues also. If forums were shut down more often, maybe people would think twice. Putting one of your own in charge is probably one of the hardest decisions to make on who will be partial to what gets closed, deleted, and so on.
Good lord people, some of these breeders have gotten together because of this forum and are working very hard to put together something that has taken life because of what has been learned here through many years of conversation right here. Perfect timing for them, and they are trying to do it for the good of all in the industry. More people read this than you would think. [hence MWard laying the smackdown on HJ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif]
I am so tired of going to horse shows and people making fun of this board because everyone loves to have cat fights here. And by board I mean every forum, not just the breeding forum.
Sometimes, a little time out does the classroom a world of good. I'm also sure when this forum re-opens [and I hope it does] that the ones that have been giving the moderators a hard time will wonder if and when posting on this bb could be gone at any time for them. That's my vote. Give the offenders a slap on the wrist when needed without hesitation. IE temorary loss of posting that could lead to permanent.
Look, there is already the beginning of claws coming out right here and now on this brand new topic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[TKR]

Wouldn't it help if the posters that Erin chastised and closed the board because of, would apologize instead of professing innocence and throwing stones (still!) at the others who were chastised? Just say, "I'm sorry, I get the point, I was wrong, I'll play nice" and get the board opened again!
PSG

[Simkie]

Ya know, this could be simple, maybe.

Erin, how about you keep track of how much time you (and the other mods) spend straightening out problem posters? 15 minutes: warning. 30 minutes: a week suspension. 60 minutes: ban them.

I like the idea of a time out paddock, too. How about a sticky that only the mods can post on? List those who have been suspended, and a brief explaination of why. If we know that they're shirring sh*t, I think most people will ignore it if they try again.

Erin, you do an awesome job here, and I really appreciate the great lengths you go to in order to make this playground orderly and fair, but still fun. It's unfortunate that a few people have made your job so difficult http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[All points]

Erin,

I don't want to see this forum shut down. But I totally agree with what you are saying. You should not need to babysit. Everyone needs to stop dragging you into these squables. I used to post here a lot, but not anymore. I barely post on this forum at all. However, I do read it every day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It can get rather entertaining at times. There are many useful threads, and valuable information to be gained from the Forum. Lets not forget how this Forum stepped to help Baby Aiden with the stallion auction. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Everyone, even the ones you called out, worked together for a common cause to help a little boy and his family. With great success I might add. Silly Mommy sharing her horrible experience with losing her colt. During her time of grief, she made sure we were all aware of what happened to her horse, and how we(the people on this Forum) could prevent a similar fate. Overall, there are more good things to come from this forum. Don't let small cat fights ruin it for everyone. That being said, it is public knowledge that Spot and I have had differences of opinions in the past. However, we were adults, contacted each other via e-mail and worked it all out. We have decided we agree to disagree. It works for us, and we have had no problems since. I don't know what the answer is, but there is too much valuable information to be gained to shut it down. People will always form their own opinions. Not much any of us can do about that.

[Nikita]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Nikita hit the nail on the head. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was right about something? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
<span class="ev_code_RED">~THUMP~</span>
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

sophab and AuntieSha Geez, can't you read? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif You're not being picked on. Get over it!

Lord Helpus How the heck do you know ALL of the past histories enough to police? Huh? Huh? You think pretty highly of yourself, don't you?

You want to tell me to stick it, right? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Rightfully so! Who the heck am I to tell anyone to get over it or what they can/can't do on the board! (just using you 3 as an example... don't beat me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif ) Self policing would be a disaster. You'd have a bunch of wannabe mods thinking what they think actually counts and instead of a disagreement between 2 or 3 people, I can see an all out brawl with 100+ people involved. Yeah many of us know *some* of the backgrounds of these disagreements but no matter how nice we are, we're going to be biased towards one side or another. It is VERY difficult to stay/be unbiased because even if it's not your fight, you get to know people on the boards and human nature dictates that you'll like some more than others.

I remember watching the ISR/GOV fights in amazement. I had NO idea what anyone was fighting about but I couldn't believe the nastiness. Were any of these bad people? Probably not, just passionate about their beliefs. To ban that topic was much easier than what is going on here. When people are being sly (enough so that many didn't notice anything) are they really being bad or is the other side just perceiving something that isn't there? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif See what I mean? How many people on this thread said that they didn't even notice a hidden agenda on the Auction/Sale thread? And how many people are disagreeing about who is to blame for the subject going off topic? So, was there a hidden agenda or is someone taking too many paranoid pills? Not an easy call is it? And would you ban someone because you *think* you know what they were thinking? (I think I'm getting a headache! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif )

VERY well said Cartier and exactly what I was trying to say.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think it is extremely problematic for anyone to presume to know the motives of another. I think it is equally problematic (and usually very manipulative and self-serving) to advance speculation as fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

It's so easy to sit back and say ban them, put them in a corner, don't let them do this or that, but the only suggestion that makes any sense is to assign one or two extra moderators for the SHB board. If the posts are ALL being read, ALL the time, problems can be stopped fairly soon. Then perhaps, people will stop trying to SH disturb.

And I think we all need to throw in a buck or two to buy Erin a VERY expensive bottle of cognac. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

On that note, I have s**t to shovel. Uh.... outside this time. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[AuntieSha]

I know AOL Instant Messenger used to (still does?) offer a percentage ranking for abusive people... Maybe COTH could have a moderator run version of that. Once you hit 0% you are banned. And your percentage is posted below your name for everyone to see.

It would take some working out-- like, do the points come back, and how does that happen, after how long????

Just a thought...

******************

And for the record, I truly apologize to everyone on COTH for any contribution I had to this mess... and for allowing myself to be pulled into it on this thread. I am deeply sorry... you are right, we do need more apologies and fewer claws. I truly hope that we can all set all differences aside and come to a resolution very soon.

-Shannon

[ljshorses]

Erin,
I am farely new to the board, but have to say that a few bad apples can spoil the bunch. I in fact am at times very leary to post because I don't want to get a backlash for my opinion. You should be allowed to disagree or agree with someone without it being taken as a personal assault. If you say you feel differently than someone on this board you can expect several people that are "friends" with the one you disagreed with to attack you. It all seems fairly childish to me and I am thinking there is better way to get information than the COTH board. I was planning to upgrade so I could post photos, but frankly don't know if I want to worry about being abused over pics or thoughts so good luck and I hope all can be resolved.
Marie Emrey
www.lazyjsporthorses.com (http://www.lazyjsporthorses.com)

[Hephaistion]

I have always liked this forum, particularly since I've always been interested in bloodlines.

But I do agree that it has been quite heated at times http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I like the poster-moderating idea - we can call to task those who are getting too snarky and personal. Although it will take a certain amount of tact and self-control from all of us to make this work.

I think everyone needs to practice counting to 10.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Otherwise I do volunteer to help moderate the forum, as long as I get to wield a frying pan!! (just picture Sam Gamgee hitting Orcs with his in Lord of the Rings http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Equibrit]

Where does the First Amendment enter into this discussion? Just let 'em have at it and it'll sort itself out! Personally, all this "political correctness" prompts me to puke! Before you know it you'll be policing people's thoughts.

[Robby Johnson]

Hi Jair!

Robby

[Tiki]

I think it's time for some chocolate - and a little joke. This is getting to be BB Rage to go along with Road Rage.


What do you call a Budgie that got run over by a lawnmower?

Scroll down for the answer..........
....

.........

.............

...........

Answer:

Shredded tweet!

[Hephaistion]

Hi Robby!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was looking for you! Saw some pretty fancy photos of you and Rhodey over on Eventing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Well, I'm all for sharing Chocolate recipes! It was a super way to hijack a thread, and sharing yummies too. As a matter of fact, with the cold weather approaching, I think I will get ready to have my favorite hot chocolate.

Steamed milk, add hersheys chocolate syrup, top with readi-whip, swirl some more hersheys syrup up the readi-whip, add candy sprinkles to the top!

[Summershyne7]

Ooh. I remember that Chocolate recipies from the Old Na/Gov arguments http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif...
Fabulous idea, but it seemed to get those who did it into trouble. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

And funnel cakes. Don't forget the funnel cakes. Carosello's favourite.

Still never had one ... *sigh*

[PiedPiper]

I am in agreement with Shoos(?). This is ridiculous. We don't pay to be here, this is a free service provided by COTH, if there are people with a long, definite history of bad behaviour and high school antics well kick them out. I am not understanding the problem. If they are contributing to the BENEFIT of the forum then they need to be gotten rid of.

Erin-Think about it like a company. If all of us were employees and you have ones taht are constantly in HR well then something needs to be done to end this pattern of behaviour.

And I also agree, with Shoos on the color part of breeding.

This is a sporthorse breeders forum, color doesn't get scored in a dressage test or a jump off. Let's stick to the sport we are breeding for?

My sentiment exactly.

If you don't want to ban, what if you assign a kind of Court or COTH Jester title that will run on their post so everyone knows not to take them seriously. Really I think thinning the herd is an important and real part of life.

Survival of the fittest

[Lianne]

Um.. in case you guys hadn't noticed, these people aren't just breeding for colored horses, they're breeding for coloured SPORThorses. And this is SPORThorse breeding forum, so they're as welcome here as anyone. Jeez.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


And if anyone want to chat about something non-chocolate related (no poo-stirring allowed), I have posted a question for you here:
http://www.americanasporthorse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77

[STF]

Like Lianne said....its a breeding BB....we talk about all kind of things.

Not everyone is going to agree and get along but it always does not have to turn into a turd throwing match.

This is getting unreal....its a freakin' discussion BB where adults can discuss things. If you dont like what people say or think you can express that, but dont have to turn into raving bithces around it.

Really, as I said before...in the long run, it really dosent matter who thinks what of what....

Now can we get over this and move on, I have a stallion to talk about.....come on people! Some of us actually pay to be Premium members here, so our "donation" is being locked up due to spastic house/horse wives.

Hey, a hear a new TV series coming on, dont you?? "Spastic Housewives with Horses"

[M.K.Smith]

I hope that soon this forum will be opened back up. I have found it a wealth of information and met so many great people-- the good far outweighs the bad. Plus, I love posting pics of Remi, Winston, & Amber.

I think some traits of typical horsepeople is that we tend to be passionate about our animals & oppinionated. When you put the two together it can be a bad combination at times!

I don't understand why there is such bickering back and forth between a few people. I can personally say that I have been offended by the way that some people treat others on this forum and made a decision a long time ago that if on a public board certain individuals act in the childish manner that they do...I will NEVER be doing business with them, no matter how nice their stallions are sale horses are. If you can't trust people to be civil towards each other I (personally) can't trust that they would follow through with a breeding or sales contract or even mis-represent horses correctly. They may have the best horses in the world, but if I don't feel that professionalism is involved then I'll find other places to do my business.

With all of the networking and how close knit some aspects of the horse business are- I can't understand why anyone would act in such a childish manner and potentially lose business.

I'm sure that people like Silly Mommy and Fred (to just pick two people) have gained business from the professional manner in which they conduct themselves and how they consistantly demonstrate what true horsewomen they are. All of that, without breaking the advertising rules!

And everybody (that I know of) loves Everythingbutwings...I don't think I've ever seen anything in the least bit unkind posted by her. I've loved watching Maddie grow up! I've also loved seing Frodo, Ti Amo (I hope I spelled that right) & Chevy grow up and who couldn't love to see Ballerina get stronger & stronger.

I hope that a resolution will soon be reached...I would really like to wish TRK jingles for the injured yearling and hear an update http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Is there an easy solution? No. My suggestion is to give everybody another chance and if people can't play nicely then they'll be banned. Of course, I don't understand exactly how that works... I don't know if they can just pick a different username & continue or if that is specific to the computer or how exactly everything works... I'm not a computer guru.

Erin, I'd also like to say that I appreciate all of your hard work and dedication that you put on into this board. I think I am correct that you volunteer to do this...you aren't paid! At times this board can be a big pain to deal with and I'm sure you don't need the headache! But thanks for putting up with us! Thanks to all of the moderators for putting up with us!

Again...can't everybody just
<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">P L A Y N I C E!!!!!!
TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WISH TO BE TREATED &
THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE</span>

Also, just keep any personal tiffs & spats off of the board. If you don't have anything constructive to say don't type it. And as my mom would say to my sister & me, "If you two can't get along, don't be in the same room together." (just change room to post)

MKB...

[shoos]

Lianne you are correct.

I just feel it is up to Erin and Coth and not us. I appreciate Erin allowing us to express our opinion. We don't own the site and whatever is decided I am alright with the decision.

I still like Coth and the forum no matter what.

[littleum]

I am also one of those posters who would NOT want to see this forum closed. I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't think I've ever even POSTED on this forum.....but I find the insight and knowledge invaluable.

I've lurked here for over 18 months and one topic has routinly made me say, "Oh THIS should get interesting"

ANYTHING to do with ANY kind of colored sport horse. Especially when Spot and Norsire get involved. The auction thread is a prime example: Spot is proud of her Faux Finish and is thinking of sending her to auction, and along the way the filly's COLOR gets tangled up into the conversation. Bam. Watch that snowball roll downhill, just like it always does.

I don't think it has anything to do with "fiesty"- I think it very much has to do with the fact they are in DIRECT competition with each other. Both breed for color, both are competing for a passionate but limited customer base and any advantage they can gain over each other translates into a potential return.

Add into the mix when other people start griping about "color bias" or "stock breed bias" and...

My recommendation? A 6 month ban of any and all public topics releating to colored sport horses. Those topics must be discussed privatly. Name the offenders, name the terms of punishment and put it all in a sticky at the top of the board. Let everyone go about their business. Same princible as kids playing with a toy: you can't play nicely with it, Mummy takes it away.

Maybe after 6 months with their "names on the board" and their toy being taken away, the offenders will be more polite. And any other people who has an axe to grinde with someone/with a topic may think twice.

Won't solve the problem 100%, but it might help.

Anyway. Back to lurking. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[pintofoal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A 6 month ban of any and all public topics releating to colored sport horses <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh I don't think that is really fair now is it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ok now I think some good solutions/ideas have been suggested, how about some feed back from the moderators to know if any are in the right direction. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[sophab]

I think there are a lot of good recommendations around here...a lot of good people, good opinions, and a wealth of knowledge. Absolutely it gets heated, and it probably shouldn't. Emotional and reactionary is never a good way to be. If I have offended anyone, I am truly sorry, and if I need to be the first member in the Time Out Paddock, that I am willing to accept. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
I'm not a big time breeder. I just love my mare and my filly (and my trainers horses, and my friends horses, and, well, everyone's horses). After spending nearly 20 of my 27 years around horses, I still find something new to learn every day. A lot of that I have learned here...on sporthorse breeders, on off course, and on horse care (I don't venture far from these venues).
I think it is sad that we have allowed ourselves to get here. I think it is even more sad that I may be part of how we got here. It truly is not, and has not ever been my intention to ruffle feathers or offend anyone. I think that the sadest reality of all of this is that a big part of the fall out is probably coming down on a farm that didn't ask to be posted about (and for clarification, I am speaking of the farm who was linked to, not Norsire, though she did not ask for it either). For that I am forever apologetic.
I hope we can resolve this, and that our forum will be brought back to the public, because there is so much left to learn, so many more friends to make, and so many stories to tell.
I stand by my time out paddock...both the idea and the offer to be there if needs be. I just hope we can resolve this as civilized people.
I hope everyone has a good day...
Trisha (aka Sophab)

[carosello]

Ok I just spent my lunch catching up on As the CoTH Turns...

Yes there are definitely personalities here, some good some bad. I agree something, anything, needs to be done. Im all for a 3 strikes your out rule. Or a group vote majority wins. either way if you dont open the Breeding forum I have a feeling this will just spill over into another and just cause the same problems.
In the meantime I think a breeding forum guide wouldnt be a bad idea. Someone to just hang around and get to know "the players".
You and CoTH have been very understanding in the meantime, thanks for hearing us out.

[mairzeadoats]

I recently came to COTH after leaving a forum where for over 2 years I'd offered free support, help, advice and funny stories.

But for the last year-plus, a small and growing clique started pig-piling onto anyone they didn't like or didn't understand. The webmaster was fooled by their 'leader' and tolerated them. Initially, the mature and nice population policed the board, but over time they've pretty much all left.

I hung in until a slew of them -- including a couple people I had *thought* were friends -- viciously attacked and even libeled me. I had the moderator remove the libelous threads and I left for good.

Bottom line: I don't think self-policing works.

If I were the moderator, I'd give 1 warning and then ban. Force the repeat offenders to go through the hassle of creating new identities and slink around in shame until they've successfully 're-branded,' if they want to participate. I'd also remove offending threads on the spot.


Equibrit: freedom of speech exists in the public domain (as long as you don't criticize Bush, in which case you may be arrested http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif).

However:

1. freedom of speech *does* have limitations -- libel being one of them

2. this board is a business that exists at the discretion of those businesses that choose to fund it. They do so as a form of marketing, by bringing together large quantities of horse people to sell to. However, they aren't interested in being associated with libel suits, and they aren't interested in being associated with grownups who act like children. What they giveth they can very easily taketh away.

[littleum]

I know, Liz....it shafts the people who CAN play nicely with what is a hot topic.

Which is part of the reason I suggested it...if polite people like you can't post, I imagine you'll be more inclined to tell the offenders to shut up when the ban is listed. Public pressure.

Either that, or just tell the "problem members" that "problem topics" are off limits to them for 6 months. If they reply the topic gets immediatly locked and their reply deleted.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I hope everyone plays nice on this thread. We may just have been given enough rope here to hang ourselves http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Lianne]

*throws a TimBit at Fairview*

Don't give anybody ideas, party pooper!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I agree, there should be no hanging goin' on!
(although tarring and feathering is an option..)

[Erin]

First of all, Equibrit, there are plenty of other online venues if you want to slug it out without any moderation. This ain't one of them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Secondly, I have and WILL ban people if they simply won't play nice. But how many of you even KNEW that there was sniping going on on that auction thread yesterday? Who would YOU have given a "strike" to? Please read Nikita's post again. It is not always black and white, and while it would quite honestly make my life easier to just ban both Spot and Norsire and be done with it, I would like to do the right thing, and not the easy thing.

Going back to what LHU said... there's a difference between "moderating" and everyone simply encouraging everyone to be civil. Let me refer everyone to BB rule #1: be nice, be polite, be respectful. THAT is what is so often missing here. You don't need to know whose motivation is what, who said what, or who's right in order to know that someone is not being nice, polite and respectful.

What I was trying to get at in my earlier posts is exactly what LHU hit on. There's no reason that everyone here can't take part in creating a culture of civility. Come on, we all know when people are saying things just to be snarky and try to put others down.

We are not going to just ban the discussion of breeding for color. Surely you all are adult enough that we don't have to resort to something so silly?

More shortly... I just wanted to answer quickly so you all know I am reading the replies.

[maple_brook]

How sad is this...please bring back our forum!!! *PLEASE*

I just got back from the stallion licensing in Verden and I was looking forward to some discussion on peoples opinions (I thought it was a very nice crop this year) and to share some good news and now I find that I can't because some people can't play nice...

I hope the mods can come up with a solution to allow real discussions/education to continue! 3 strikes and 6 months ban seems more than fair!

[Equibrit]

Mairzeadoats
Whilst I understand the point you are making, you must be aware that this forum IS in the public domain and the views posted are not those of COTH. I don't understand why there is SO much excitement generated by venomous posts. The authors are clearly expressing their views and must stand behind those views. That would INCLUDE any consequence that may be warranted. They are clearly behaving in a way that they find acceptable although others may not. It is clearly not an unusual thing for them to do. Consequently others may take any remedy they see fit including that offered by the courts. We do not rush out to these peoples homes to stop them speaking their minds and must not stop them doing it here. HOWEVER they should be aware of the consequences to them! COTH cannot be responsible for controling these people's human nature.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't agree that people should be allowed to sling mud. There is too much of a chance at innocent people being hurt in the crossfire. PLUS we MUST remember that this is sponsored by a BUSINESS that needs to protect it's reputation. We all associate the COTH with this forum.

[CathyKb]

Reality Check for All the Posters. Life is too short for all this bickering, sniping and so on. My middle son just rolled his vehicle three times and by the grace of god is not seriously injured. These feuds just really are not important in the scheme of life, so treat everyone as you would want to be treated. Enough said from a panic-stricken mother.

[Lianne]

FHC - you misunderstood my post, I was agreeing with you, just asking you not to give people ideas about hanging themselves! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Oh, my CathyKb. Thank God he is ok. You are very right - life is just too short.

[Oakstable]

Sporthorse breeders are intensely interested in the approvals for all the registeriesat this time of year. If a few individuals have been so out of line that the moderator felt comfortable calling them out, then reduce them to Read Only status and let the rest of continue to learn from each other.

Thanks for your patience, Erin. I cannot imagine trying to babysit a forum.

~Sally

[AuntieSha]

I am so glad that your son is alright, CathyKb... his angel was definitely with him that day...

-Shannon

[sketcher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YankeeLawyer:
For what it's worth, in my opinion this situation is self-correcting because it could not be good for business to behave like a loon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is a great point! Some of these people are annoying but I am glad to have had the opportunity to see how they behave before I have spent any money with them.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Come on, we all know when people are saying things just to be snarky and try to put others down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, my ever-wise Mom calls this "feeding your ego off of other people's hides."

[STF]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Come on people....

There is no way to solve this....people are going to be nasty no matter what, its they way people are.

Ignore, humor and move on.....

[Lord Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:


Going back to what LHU said... there's a difference between "moderating" and everyone simply encouraging everyone to be civil. Let me refer everyone to BB rule #1: be nice, be polite, be respectful. THAT is what is so often missing here. You don't need to know whose motivation is what, who said what, or who's right in order to know that someone is not being nice, polite and respectful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Erin. That is what I meant.

If we see jabs or snarkiness beginning, rather than pull up a chair and get out the popcorn or, even worse, get involved and join in the fracas, can't we try to nip it in the bud by posting something along the lines of "Uh oh. This thread looks like it's heading to the time out paddock."

People need to say SOMETHING to stop the buildup of emotion until it overflows into real vitriol. Each of us needs to feel it's OK to step in and be that person. Derail, diffuse and molify. Do what it takes to keep our own house in order.

PS: I think that Jair is a great person to be a "special moderator" for this BB for a while if that is an idea that makes sense. He has been around since the beginning of COTH, he knows most of the players and yet doesn't post much, so he is not associated with one group or another, and he has always seemed to be a fair person. I know that the concept of "special moderator" has been used before because DMK was given that title for a limited purpose a while back.

[varider30]

Another vote for keeping this wonderful forum available to everyone "adult" enough to use it. The bottom line is breeders who are breeding quality stock and who know they have quality horses, conduct themselves professionally and don't waste time on meaningless and childish jabs back and forth on a bulletin board. Erin, you are right....this is high school stuff....

[Astraled]

I vote to ban the people who cannot keep personal issues off the board. It is not mean. Mean would be banning everybody from posting on this forum by closing it. This forum is my favorite http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif and I want it back.

[LuvTheDutch]

I must agree, I like the time-out idea ... I didn't read through all the suggestions, I must admit that. I do lurk more than I post on this board. If I need help I post occasionally but tend to hesitate on hitting the send button. Just like in any other business, new ones have to learn and get prepared to take over for those who will one day retire. And sometimes I feel as though the jabs on the board are more at the newbies than anyone else.

I've been jabbed at a few times and took a hiatus from the SHB forum. You'll find me more on eventing,sometimes h/j, and off course. I hope a resoluation can be found.

[DLM]

"Why rely on Erin and the other mods so much? Why do we sit back and watch these trainwrecks, catfights, whatever you want to call them, develop?"

Lord Helpus .. I just got to reading page 2 so I don't know if this was addressed or not. If you go look at the thread that was what I tried to do by pointing out certain things that I knew to be and if you read past my post you get to see what the replies were. Misrepresentation of what I posted and trying to engage me into a word volley. I totally got sick of the picking at one person's stock and felt who was I to sit back and watch this. Might be my age but it reminded me of issues like "take back the night". I don't spend much time on this BB or any other but I can tell you that I have seen it enough to know it is a regular occurrence. If I was the brunt of this constant picking I am willing to bet I would be pretty hypersensitive to any reference to my stock and quite frankly who wouldn't get to that point.

I really have no idea how this can be dealt with. I don't think posting that people should read their posts over carefully before hitting the "post now" button is going to get us anywhere because I am sure the offensive people have done just that in hope to sneak by the tiniest offence possible to just get one more dig in. I don't understand the mentality
of it!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif If we allow the behavior to continue we are no better than the offender(s). If banning offenders is the only way to deal with it well go ahead and stand them in the corner for "time out" as the bad acting children they display themselves to be. Maybe having someone able to delete their posts out of the threads would work.

As to the forum .. when I get a chance to read it a LOVE the wealth of knowledge that is here and so many many people to get suggestions and advice from. It is truly an assest to have it available.

[ljshorses]

There are so many nice, caring people in the horse business yet we are constantly reminded of the not so nice ones. The hardest thing to do in this type of business is to get your name out there with people knowing that you are a honest, reputabe sort that stands by your 'product' as well as future ones. I want to have a 'good' reputation so why, please tell me, would these people want to 'hurt' their's. I just don't understand it, I would think they would be very ashamed right now of their actions and how it has effected so many others.

I was really enjoying the sharing of knowledge and reaping the benefits from communicating with others in the same field. I have been involved with horses since I was 4 and I am now in my 40's, I am sure there is something I may have seen before that someone else might not have and could benefit from my experience...I know I still have "plenty" to learn and would love to learn from other's experiences. I posted a request on info for Sport Pony Inspections and received many, many great responses that helped me with some decisions. I am 'new' to sport ponies and needed the help of others that have years of experience to share.

What a shame just a few can ruin it for so many. Hats off to you MKBrown....you are one of those 'good' guys and I love your pics!

www.lazyjsporthorses.com (http://www.lazyjsporthorses.com)

[DLM]

"We have colored sporthorses and have noticed over the years that Colored breeders are a pretty feisty group"

I haven't found this to be so. I bred two TB mares out to colored TB stallions this year and honestly they were the absolute best stallion owners I have EVER dealt with!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I sent one of these mares out to a race AQHA stallion years ago and was lucky to save her life .. it was horrible and I vowed I would never let her off my farm again but she went to Canada twice this breeding season and that was no fault of the stallion owners that she went the second time. The other mare went a a colored breeder here in PA and again she had wonderful wonderful care. Neither of these breeders that I use are envious of the others and actually make comments like the more colored TB breeders the better. I have chatted with other colored TB breeders over the years and they have been sincere and nice to the very best of my knowledge.

With the market in the state that it has been in for the past couple years it makes way more sense to get along. I have learned a good deed done usually comes back to you. If we don;t have what a prospective buyer is looking for and I know who might I pass the business on.

What I do know is that I too would hate to see this forum shut down and think it would be a shame if that is how it ends up.

[Rocky XVI]

Lock the offending thread, email the offending posters (offending as perceived by the moderators); 3 emails and you're out. Permanently.

[Kyzteke]

Some people just don't know how to behave. Like the woman who gets sloppy drunk at the office Christmas party and ends up dancing naked with Santa Claus, this sort of behavior is wickedly fascinating to the rest of us. Why do you think "Reality" tv is so popular right now? Is that usually people behaving in a civilized manner? Heck, no!! And most of America is tuning in in droves.
But there must be a LEGAL reason every BB is so anxious to stop it. otherwise it seems to me that those of us who are hard up for entertainment and actually get a perverse enjoyment from these cat fights could just pull up a chair. And those of us who find such behavior personally repugnant can...gasp...go to another topic! Even I know how to work that button.

So, if banning people is problematic, why can't COTH & other similar forums just post a disclaimer: "The opinions of those posting here are not endorsed or supported by COTH..." or whatever.

That won't work?

Can we shoot them? Hey -- how about PUBLISHING THEIR REAL NAMES?! Kind of like walking around with a big scarlet "A"...

For whatever reason, please keep the site...it IS a source of knowledge & interaction with other breeders and is especially valuable for those of us who are very rural and don't have too many other resources.

[Riggs]

Erin, I love you to death and so does everyone I speak to about COTH. I think you do an admirable job of a very tough role.

I do want to beg to differ on one point though. You said several times you want to make the right decision and not ban people willy nilly because you are a nice person and dont want to be cruel. I agree there. BUT I have to say I disagree with your comment that making the decision is not black and white.

IMHO, it is exactly like micro and macro economics. You can make it as complex and complicated as you want by drilling down, or you can look at it overall and the answer is seen quite cleanly. (at least in my humble mind it seems to be).

You give people an opportunity to play in this private playground. They break the rules, they get a warning, or if the rules are broken extremely badly, they are banned. If they appear to constantly disrespect the moderators' (by direspecting their rules), then that is called insubordination and is grounds for immediate dismissal in a work place. Why should this be any different? They have come here to play, they are not playing fair, you tell them to go home for a while, then invite them back and they still dont play fair, then you dont invite them back again (e.g. ban) because they upset the applecart too much.
You dont need to take on the responsiblity to teach them how to play. The rules are already there. OR, is it that the rules dont cover the subleties you mention? If that is the case, then why not review and rewrite your rules?

I dont understand why I see this as simple and you dont. Maybe I am missing something here. Or maybe it is because I am not in the middle of the forest like you are and so I can see the forest and the trees too. Or maybe I just dont have all the information. It just seems logical.

[nycjumper]

Keep the forum. I lurk here a lot & have learned tons. It's very useful for not only the breeders but also the buyers. I use this as a resource for bloodlines, for information and for ideas!

And my other thought - even if breeders aren't aware that what they're typing affects their public reputation - it does. There are a lot of people like me who lurk on this forum. And after reading these posts, there are breeders/stallion owners/etc. that I would NEVER work with & those that I would recommend highly. And I bet everyone who posts/reads here feels the same way. And I know I've forwarded on photos/websites to people at the barn who are looking. I also know that I've shared my negative opinions of certain people based on what I've read here. And again, I bet lots of people do the same.

Just something to think about.....

[DLM]

"Some people just don't know how to behave. Like the woman who gets sloppy drunk at the office Christmas party and ends up dancing naked with Santa Claus, this sort of behavior is wickedly fascinating to the rest of us."

OMG this was way too funny!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Okay I too apolodize to anyone I may of offended or to anyone I may offendin the
future. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I have to get back out to the barn.

Erin .. I gree with you what ever you decide to do but can you please please pretty pretty please turn the firum back on.

[TKR]

Since it appears all the folks who post regularly are reading this board, I'll ask Erin's benevolence and let all of you know that my Remy (injured yearling) is doing well. I took him to the clinic yesterday and the wonderful vets there collaborated on him and decided he could be done standing. So, alot of hoof wall was cut away and resected (OUCH!) because it was not viable. The coronary band is fine and the hoof will grow back in time, could show some "defect" of where the injury occurred, but it won't compromise his soundness. He will be at the clinic until early next week, heavily wrapped, on systemic antibiotics and steroids, pain meds and treated daily. He was a sweetheart to load and haul, walked around there calmly and was completely serene in his stall. This morning the vet I spoke with told me he was behaving beautifully and tolerating everything well. So, sorry for rambling, it's been very tense for me. Many, many thanks for your kind words, thoughts, prayers and emails. I'll update when there is news.

Penny G

[Spot]

okay - gone all day and 5 pages later I am back again

sophab and AuntieSha - I am NOT pointing fingers or anything else at you or anyone else.
There was a point made way back there somewhere about hidden agendas and issues being brought up that had nothing to do with the topic at hand to incite a riot.

I was merely pointing out that at NO time did I bring up anything other than the topic at hand and short of reading through that whole auction thread again I cant remember who brought up the height issue first, but it WASNT ME, nor did I EVER comment on it at all in that thread.
And yes - sophad you DID also try and steer the topic back on track several times - I should have also pointed that out.

Someone else also mentioned how they were enjoying that thread - me too! - until it got to a Norsire/Spot supposed "battle" once again.

I dont mind the concept of time outs or suspensions or whatever Erin deems necessary, but if someone cares to go back to that thread in particular and please point out at what point and with what comment I would have been given a slap on the wrist and at what point Norsire would have been given one as well, because to be honest, I think you would all be hard pressed to find ANYTHING that was said that warranted a time out or ban from either one of us. In my opinion, anyhow.

Yes I want this forum to continue. Yes I am sorry it has come to this. Yes I am passionate about what I do and what I believe in. Yes I believe that we can agree to disagree and still get along well enough that no one takes offence to what is being posted. And yes - I am sure there will still be a lot of differences of opinions - there is bound to be with 10,000+ people stating their opinions and views - and hopefully it can all be kept civilized, respectful and above board

:Spot:

[jumpgirl]

Ok,

so what is the verdict. Is the forum going to open back up or do we go play elsewhere. I'm tired of logging in and checking.

BTW, the colored sporthorse people, I've noticed as well, have done all this bickering elsewhere and for years and it is ALL the same ones that are doing it here. I'd support a ban of all topics relating to colored sporthorse breeding. Like the colored sporthorse breeders say, it isn't the color, it is the performance so why do they have to talk color anyway? I'm sick to death of the topic and the breeders. No one could GIVE me a colored sporthorse if I had to deal with anyone of them.

I know I'm blunt but what a waste of time.

[Tiki]

Is there a foot tapping icon?

[A. P.]

OK, since the forum isn't re-opened...
Tell me what you think of the stallion Concerto Grosso...
http://www.westwiththewind.com/pages/666930/index.htm

[Bea]

Somehow I would imagine closing down this forum for good would not make Erin's and the other moderators life any easier. Off Course would just become full of anxious breeders and threads on colored sport horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I do think they're right to close it down for the moment in order to make us all appreciate its existence.

If we've poured through the auction thread and haven't been able to find the most egregious post ever made on COTH, I would imagine it's simply because that thread was the straw that broke the camel's back. And as we know, those straws don't have to be the heaviest ones.

Erin and the other moderators are really the only ones with the omnipresent view of the forum. And therefore the only ones to know what small portion of the population creates the most work. And in my opinion, they do their job, moderating, superbly. I have no suggestions to offer to resolve the situation. Can only say I have confidence whatever Erin decides to do will be in the best interests of the community as a whole.

[Erin]

Boy, we're off to a good start... people are already getting snarky that I'm not opening up the forum fast enough for them, and going ahead and ignoring the obvious intent here and posting unrelated content. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Thank everyone for their comments. The moderators and I are going to talk it over, and I will open up the forum later this evening when we've come to a decision.