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luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 12:44 PM
Do you use them? Why or why not?

RLF
Dec. 26, 2010, 01:13 PM
Yes! LOVE THEM!

I prefer them to side reins on younger or less experienced horses because it offers them the chance to move a little more and use their heads and necks to balance on the lunge. Whereas draw reins are harder for the youngers to avoid bit contact and in my experience results in either them falling behind the bit, or more commonly leaning on the bit. The vienna reins can be used to introduce some self carriage before the side reins demand more from them.
They can also be used on a more advanced horse in a downward (between the girth) position to encourage a long and low frame, though caution needs to be used in this frame as it can cause a horse to fall on the forehand if they aren't ready. This can also be useful for a horse who has learned to break behind the poll, or to encourage a horse with a stiff back to lift their back.

I love the adjustability of them and the many different applications they can be used for.

I can't wait to hear what other people think. =)

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 02:23 PM
Wow Hannomerci...sounds like he had them adjusted waaayyy wrong. Sorry to hear about that :(. Good luck with your new girl! Would love to see pics!!

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 02:25 PM
oh and they are a lunging tool only, never heard of anyone riding in them. I can't imagine making a young horse work in vienna reins every day and RIDING in draw reins...poor horse! I think 3 days a week for 15 mins TOPS for a young horse to lunge them in properly adjusted vienna reins...less when first starting out. They can do more harm than good if used improperly and the horse will be very sore when they start in them.

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 02:58 PM
Wow she's beautiful! Having them tethered to the back of the saddle forces her into a more advanced frame than she is fit for. When I use them I attach them to the girth which encourage the horse to be low and seeking. I think with some proper work she'll be A-OK. She's very nicely built with a strong topline...and if she's anything like my WB, that is not going to go anywhere

Ibex
Dec. 26, 2010, 03:14 PM
Have them, love them! My mare gets heavy in regular side reins (uses them to hold herself up). Properly adjusted these show her where she needs to be without doing the job for her...

back in the saddle
Dec. 26, 2010, 03:45 PM
Saw them used once and decided they're a gadget. Yuck....

Brooke
Dec. 26, 2010, 03:49 PM
I've not seen these before - just looked them up. Could someone explain to me how these are different from draw reins?

back in the saddle
Dec. 26, 2010, 03:57 PM
IMO they're not much different that draw reins at all.

Ibex
Dec. 26, 2010, 03:58 PM
Saw them used once and decided they're a gadget. Yuck....

How exactly are they any more of a gadget that regular side reins...?

Or a bit, or a bridle, or spurs, or....

Aelfleah Farm
Dec. 26, 2010, 04:01 PM
I reach or the vienna reins (or re-balancer rein or whatever you want to call it) much more often than I use ordinary side reins. The amount of flex/play in them, while still maintaing contact, I find very beneficial for young horses and for rehabbing older horses that have learned to hang on the bit. I got a set initially to work on a horse that had being schooling extensively in draw reins (as in rarely ever ridden without draw reins on a uxeter kimberwick). I'm convinced they were very useful for "fixing" him and teaching him to move without the draw rein cage he had been trained in.

Ibex
Dec. 26, 2010, 04:01 PM
I've not seen these before - just looked them up. Could someone explain to me how these are different from draw reins?

They're a lunging tool, not a riding one. You *can* set up draw reins to act like vienna reins, depending on the set up of your draws.

You can use them in a couple of ways, including running them to the billets on the sides instead of between the legs.

Like anything, it's all in the adjustment. Sure, you could crank them in and use them like badly used draws, or you can adjust them properly.

I like them because when used properly they don't "hold" a horse in a certain place the way regular side reins do.

back in the saddle
Dec. 26, 2010, 04:09 PM
How exactly are they any more of a gadget that regular side reins...?

Or a bit, or a bridle, or spurs, or....

Spurs are another gadget. A properly trained horse won't need them. ;)

And you also shouldn't need any more than a snaffle bit for GP movements. ;)

Yes, I do believe anything else than the basic equipment (bridle, saddle, sidereins, whip, snaffle bit) ARE gadgets.

Regular side reins teach bit acceptance and contact provided they're properly adjusted. They do not teach 'head placement' as this post indicates vienna reins do. If a horse is leaning on regular side reins they're probably too short, IMO.


Properly adjusted these show her where she needs to be without doing the job for her


When I saw Vienna reins in use on a young horse they did nothing but flex the hores's head backwards and would not allow her it to go in front of the vertical at all. That to me was "showing her where her head needed to be".

Properly adjusted sidereins allow a young horse to stretch into the contact while keeping the head up and open. These vienna reins don't do that, they drag the head down. It's nothing but a different form of draw rein.

Ibex
Dec. 26, 2010, 04:44 PM
Spurs are another gadget. A properly trained horse won't need them. ;)

And you also shouldn't need any more than a snaffle bit for GP movements. ;)

Yes, I do believe anything else than the basic equipment (bridle, saddle, sidereins, whip, snaffle bit) ARE gadgets.

Regular side reins teach bit acceptance and contact provided they're properly adjusted. They do not teach 'head placement' as this post indicates vienna reins do. If a horse is leaning on regular side reins they're probably too short, IMO.




When I saw Vienna reins in use on a young horse they did nothing but flex the hores's head backwards and would not allow her it to go in front of the vertical at all. That to me was "showing her where her head needed to be".

Properly adjusted sidereins allow a young horse to stretch into the contact while keeping the head up and open. These vienna reins don't do that, they drag the head down. It's nothing but a different form of draw rein.

Then you saw them used incorrectly.

Oh, and a whip is a gadget. Better drop it real quick. :cool:

Bravestrom
Dec. 26, 2010, 05:03 PM
It is like any tool in your tool box - it is all about the experiences you have had with the tool - the proper and improper use of the tool and acquiring the knowledge to use the tool properly. If a tool never worked, no one would use it at all and you would not hear about it.

But because used correctly it can be advantageous, the tool is still around.

Never discount anything - learn how it is used properly as part of your education, then use it if you need it and don't use it if you don't need it. You just never know when you might need it - so take the opportunity to learn.

back in the saddle
Dec. 26, 2010, 05:23 PM
Then you saw them used incorrectly.

Oh, and a whip is a gadget. Better drop it real quick. :cool:

Apparantly you don't understand classical training. Anything the SRS uses isn't a gadget. They spend a LOT of time searching for their willow whips every year. Definitely not a gadget but a highly regarded training aid. ;)

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 05:24 PM
I believe they're called Vienna reins because the Spanish Riding School in Vienna uses them aren't they? (i'll find out for sure when i go to the spanish riding school in feb :-P)

Ibex
Dec. 26, 2010, 05:29 PM
Apparantly you don't understand classical training. Anything the SRS uses isn't a gadget. They spend a LOT of time searching for their willow whips every year. Definitely not a gadget but a highly regarded training aid. ;)\

WTF??? You clearly have your own idealized vision of the SRS. They use doubles, spurs etc etc as required. They also invented (I think) the drop noseband, which could be considered a gadget. ;)

Although apparently here, stirrups were NOT required... you may wish to ditch those immediately.
http://stylemetothemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/SMTTM-Spanish-Riding-School-7.jpg

I am a fan of classical. Klassical-BlackBeauty-trainedwithloooove...

notsomuch

back in the saddle
Dec. 26, 2010, 05:48 PM
Yep they use them but they don't need them.

I never said doubles were a gadget. Same as above. A properly trained horse doens't "need" a double.

Yes, I've been to the SRS and seem them ride. Beautiful. And no, I don't believe they use Vienna reins. I've only seen long lines and side reins. I think the name "Vienna" is used as a marketing tool.

Nothing else is needed to train a horse other than the basics.

Well, my trainer "invented" (fact) the bit they use. (Fulmer bit) ;) And it's used with a regular snaffle bridle. Don't know about the drop noseband. Never saw one with one on when I was there. ????

Ibex
Dec. 26, 2010, 05:50 PM
Looks like a vienna set-up to me...

http://www.writingofriding.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lipizzaner_lunge_cavesson_SRS.jpg

As for "not needing" the double if the horse is sufficiently trained... are you suggesting that the SRS uses a double just for looks, or that their horses aren't properly trained...? ;)

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 05:54 PM
http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/lauffer___vienna_reins.html

RLF
Dec. 26, 2010, 06:18 PM
Looks like a vienna set-up to me...

http://www.writingofriding.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lipizzaner_lunge_cavesson_SRS.jpg



I just want to point out that the reins are set up properly in the pic above. The reins should attach at one of the mid range side rings and then to the top center ring, or the topmost side ring. Using them between the legs on the girth is for advanced horses only who already know the meaning of contact and at least some self carriage. It can also be used at this setting to correct certain bad habits.

Vienna reins are not at all draw reins, even when used at the girth as draw reins are used under saddle and vienna reins are used only for lunging. They CAN be used in a similiar manner to encourage the horse to stretch long and low- however in my experience most people misuse both tools which results in stories such as HannaMerci's.

I think it's important to point out that a lot of people, owners and trainer alike, view them as a 'shortcut' tool. Vienna reins, like any other tool, need a knowledgeable user to obtain maximum results. Patience and a plan for use are both key. Unfortunately a lot of people lack both!

back in the saddle
Dec. 26, 2010, 06:35 PM
The bottom method in that link was how I saw them in use and it was horrible.

I don't see much difference in the 'triangle method' vs a regular side rein. IMO, a rein shouldn't be used to teach flexion in any amount. The side rein is there to teach contact and acceptance of the bit to start. It should never make the horse go behind. In my experience with regular side reins the horse won't purposely go behind anyway unless the rein is too short for his experience level. If they go behind they rein is too short. The more trained the horse, the more properly he goes with a shorter rein. As he gains experience with them, they're shortened and not before. Just my experience.

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 06:52 PM
Those of you who seem to think that conventional side reins do a better job of teaching a horse to "accept contact"...I am confused by your concept of contact. When you're riding, and your horse accepts your contact and rounds his back, do you then drop your contact and give him loose loopy reins? Because that is what conventional side reins do...i can't see how that correctly teaches a horse to "accept contact". It has always been my understanding that contact is constant, and that loopy reins (as Jane Savoie calls them) are not desirable in dressage.

RLF
Dec. 26, 2010, 07:13 PM
Those of you who seem to think that conventional side reins do a better job of teaching a horse to "accept contact"...I am confused by your concept of contact. When you're riding, and your horse accepts your contact and rounds his back, do you then drop your contact and give him loose loopy reins?

I agree.... for the most part. The other options are that they maintain correct contact on their own in the correct lightness, or they lean on them. :no: I don't like those odds. Again, skill of the user to keep the horse pushing into the contact by driving from behind. Most average people don't have those lunge line skills! lol
I once had an OLD SCHOOL trainer who hated the rubber donuts on side reins. His theory was that when a horse does go into the reins the rubber donut will stretch but will actually cause MORE pull as the rubber seeks it's original state, teaching the horse to avoid the pull by coming behind the verticle. I agreed with him then, because lets face it, there was no disagreeing with him! lol But it put a stigma in my head about those rubber donut side reins.

spirithorse
Dec. 26, 2010, 07:47 PM
gadget:
1. a small mechanical device or appliance
2. any object that is interesting for its ingenuity or novelty rather than for its practical use

If one applies number two to equipment used in the schooling of the horse, then one might well be able to seperate 'tools' from the 'gadgets'.
Key words to consider are "practical use" versus the ingenuity and/or novelty.

You decide which is which.

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 07:57 PM
spirithorse, i'd love to see you riding your horse gadget-free! Do you ride without a saddle and bridle?

spirithorse
Dec. 26, 2010, 08:30 PM
spirithorse, i'd love to see you riding your horse gadget-free! Do you ride without a saddle and bridle?

Take the burr out from your backside, please. The post I wrote clearly stipulates and we decide which is which.
From my perspective spurs and whips are gadgets and after 22yrs of bitless, I do believe bits are gadgets. A bridle does not have to contain a bit, ala hackamores, bosals, etc......

A forced smile is a soft tissue gadget, it is simply the false presentation of fraudulent emotional and physical conditions.

Carol Ames
Dec. 26, 2010, 09:00 PM
I have used them briefly, for a horse who would not use her neck, flat or over fences:eek:; they made a big difference within minutes; her back came up ; though she still tended to drop back behind the bit, rather than stretch into contact; She would stretch down and seek the;) ground when warming up but, pick up the reins and she wasn't :no:"there:eek:; not good over fences:no: I finally used a TTOUCH training bit; they look horribly severe; but horses tend to chew and stretch their toplines just from the mouthpiece; they allow the rider to take contact; enough to jump;) with without their locking up:cool: With a horse locked up as you describe; I would definitely use one; you could longe I suppose; I'm not big on longing; but. with his bit and a balance rope, would take up contact and ride; It worked beautifully on this horse; she went on to win MANY 2nd level classes:cool: against BIG warm bloods:yes: ridden by pros:yes: ( FEI )level riders:cool: It works!

katarine
Dec. 26, 2010, 09:00 PM
What about a chain around a horse's pastern, Spirithorse? Is that a gadget?

Carol Ames
Dec. 26, 2010, 09:59 PM
Makes sense to a point; but, when Dr. did Dr. . Cook last judge a dressage show? and when has someone ridden a test in this bridle?

Carol Ames
Dec. 26, 2010, 10:01 PM
Definitely!






What about a chain around a horse's pastern, Spirithorse? Is that a gadget?

luvmydutch
Dec. 26, 2010, 10:42 PM
chain
n.
1.
a. A connected, flexible series of links, typically of metal, used especially for holding objects together or restraining or for transmitting mechanical power.
b. Such a set of links, often of precious metal and with pendants attached, worn as an ornament or symbol of office.
2. A restraining or confining agent or force.
3. chains
a. Bonds, fetters, or shackles.
b. Captivity or oppression; bondage: threw off the chains of slavery.

mickeydoodle
Dec. 26, 2010, 11:00 PM
Vienna reins are great tools on the lunge line, really encourage roundness, respect for contact and balance. I love using them.

mickeydoodle
Dec. 26, 2010, 11:02 PM
luvmydutch- I know :[ poor girl. We have a very hilly turnout so I'm hoping she'll keep some muscle while working out the kinks and sore muscles in turnout. I only have a few sale photos, I seriously cannot wait until she gets here!! But here she is:
http://img573.imageshack.us/i/mercijump.jpg/

http://img715.imageshack.us/i/mercilunge.jpg/
the idiot "free lunges" in tack...

http://img96.imageshack.us/i/merciz.jpg/

Cute horse, I do not see anything wrong with these pictures- not big booboos in training.

Carol Ames
Dec. 26, 2010, 11:13 PM
http://www.ttouch.com/PDFs/TTtrainingbit.pdf

Foxhound
Dec. 27, 2010, 02:56 PM
I don't think she's as bad off as you think. ;) I know the photos are just a snapshot of what is happening in that instant, but I was honestly expecting something much worse from your description than what I saw in the picture. She does look tight in the neck, but I've seen horses cranked in way more than that who weren't ruined. She should be fine.

I've used Vienna/Triangle/Draw reins on a horse who was very inverted and afraid of the bit. He hated any kind of inconsistent contact (as he would get from anything with rubber or elastic), and he had a tendency to either hit the bit or hide from it. Lunging with the reins in a triangle setup allowed him to figure out that he could safely seek the contact, but not lean on it or hide from it.

The only difference between Vienna reins and draw reins is that people who say they are "too classical" for draw reins can use Vienna reins and think they are not being contradictory. ;)

katarine
Dec. 27, 2010, 03:00 PM
she's a lovely mare and happily doesn't look to be muscled in a way that screams I was cranked in and sent forward. Not everyone's weirded out by free lounging in tack/side reins, and if nothing else it shows she's sensible ;)

kaluha2
Dec. 27, 2010, 10:03 PM
"When you're riding, and your horse accepts your contact and rounds his back, do you then drop your contact and give him loose loopy reins? Because that is what conventional side reins do...i can't see how that correctly teaches a horse to "accept contact"."

If this is what happens when someone uses side reins then they are not being used correctly.

The horse finds the bit by being ridden to it or longed to it. If the side reins are looped than the horse is not being asked forward to the bit.

If the reins while being ridden are looped than the horse is not being ridden to the bit either.

There should not be a loop in the reins while being ridden or while being longed in side reins otherwise the connection is lost and then there is not reason for the horse to seek the bit.

luvmydutch
Dec. 27, 2010, 10:12 PM
kaluha2, i'm sort of following you...horse should be reaching for contact...but it seems like a horse would more naturally want to avoid the pressure of the bit by coming behind. I'd love to see a video of a horse being correctly lunged in conventional side reins!

RLF
Dec. 27, 2010, 11:23 PM
Here's A video- I didn't watch it to see, but maybe some people could comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8chsopmq48

kaluha2
Dec. 27, 2010, 11:57 PM
"but it seems like a horse would more naturally want to avoid the pressure of the bit by coming behind."

Why do you feel this way?

If a horse is ridden into a sympathetic hand that asks the horse to reach and to step forward to the bit there is no reason for avoidance or for creeping behind. The sympathetic hand always asks the horse to seek and the bit is used as bait.