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Amazone
Dec. 20, 2010, 08:28 AM
I get really annoyed when I pay $150+ for a lesson and the trainer sits on his/her butt in the corner of the arena and yells at me across the arena. I think the trainer needs to be closer to the combination to really see what is happening and to offer assistance. I also think it is just bad manners, I know being on your feet all day is tiring, but, hey, you chose this proffession. I had a trainer, who is now retired, but he would be on his feet close to the rider for the entire lesson and he was 73 years old! He was also a top rider in his day, competing at the highest levels in all three Olympic disciplines. He used to say that when he was doing his bereiter training in Germany, they were taught that they always had to be standing while teaching. It's an etiquette thing. I feel this is especially important with lower level riders and it also just shows that you respect your students. Is this just me, or does anyone else feel like this too?

NJRider
Dec. 20, 2010, 08:35 AM
This would only happen to me ONCE and then I would go elsewhere. They have a gravy train thing going on, so it is the fault of those who pay this lazy person, not the other way around. There are a LOT of trainers who have students who are not serious and for them it is a social thing, so the trainer only has to pander ans BS for their 45 minutes and collect the money. When a serious rider comes in, these trainers think they can get away with the BS.

2tempe
Dec. 20, 2010, 08:54 AM
I've had one trainer that didn't know how to sit (energizer bunny......) and one who sits sometimes- usually on a fence.
I've been to clinics w/ clinicians who stand and those who sit. Never really thought much about it, so I guess I dont really care so long as I'm getting good input.

UniqueSaddlePads
Dec. 20, 2010, 09:04 AM
I agree, this is not acceptable! When someone is sitting at the other end of the arena, you tend to have to strain to even hear them which is taking focus off what you are trying to work on. Especially when you are paying that kind of $$. I've never had a trainer do that, especially the more expensive ones. If it is a one time thing, ok I'll give you a break but more than once and buh-bye!

exvet
Dec. 20, 2010, 09:05 AM
I too am less concerned with whether an instructor is sitting or standing or moving throughout my lesson as long as they are an active participant. That means they are keeping their eyes on me, commenting on what I am or am not doing and offering advice on how to improve/handle a situation. What I can't stand is when a clinician spends more time talking to the peanut gallery than actively teaching the rider/horse combination. I realize that there are symposia which are designed for the auditors (I've ridden in those too) which I am assuming is not what is being discussed here.

If I am paying for a lesson I expect the clinician/riding instructor to maintain their dialogue with me, not the 3 railbirds sitting behind him/her especially if they asked me to canter a 10 meter circle and due to their chattiness 5 circles later remember I'm still there waiting for their next instruction/critique. Actually I have stopped my riding while I've waited out a chatty cathy clinician instead of pounding my horse into the dirt because they saw the occasion as a more social one than I did. To be clear, I do not mind that they answer questions of spectators' regarding the lesson and applicable to what is going on but I do mind when they go off on tangents clearly discussing things that should wait until after the lesson is over especially when the clock is ticking.

ThreeFigs
Dec. 20, 2010, 10:44 AM
I don't care if the instructor sits or stands. Content is more important.

The last clinician I rode with who sat throughout most of the session had one of those walkie-talkie devices to connect trainer & rider. It was great! No problems hearing his comments. I think the auditors at the clinic didn't like it because he could speak to riders in a conversational tone. That made it hard for the auditors to listen in on the teaching.

I can't teach if I'm sitting! I've tried it, but prefer to stand & walk.

eponacelt
Dec. 20, 2010, 11:57 AM
I have to say - my trainer sits at one end of the arena most of the time. But her attention is on me, her arena is well lit, and she has a nice sounds system that ensures I can hear what she's saying. Doesn't bother me at all.

ACP
Dec. 20, 2010, 12:05 PM
I am 65 and a cancer survivor who got very unfit while having a stem cell transplant. I tend to sit or walk, as standing still makes my back hurt.

As a rider, I don't care if the instructor sits, stands, walks, whatever, as long as the lesson is good and she/he is paying attention to me and my horse.

My sister takes from an FEI rider who, now that it is so cold, wraps himself up in an electric blanket and sits in one corner out of the wind. He's working her butt off and they are making great progress.

sunhawk
Dec. 20, 2010, 12:44 PM
When I took my coaching certification we we taught to place ourselves at a vantage point where we could see both sides of the horse and rider.
I'm quite happy if the coach is on the side of the arena, but I struggle with hearing, and really like them to have a sound system.

caevent
Dec. 20, 2010, 12:55 PM
From an instructor's point of view, I often go to the corner of the ring, as I can see A LOT more from the outside than the inside. It's not a laziness issue - I will go wherever I can see and communicate best, and more often than not that is on the outside of the rider. There's also the factor of having multiple horses/trainers in one arena and often times I almost get myself run over, focusing on my student only and not the horse doing a trot lengthening on the diagonal. :lol:

mjhco
Dec. 20, 2010, 01:42 PM
I have no problem with a trainer seated in one place in the arena. Content and ability count with me. If I cannot hear I say so. It is then fixed.

Having several horses going in the ring does not make for a good place for trainers to be standing. I really hate dodging pedestrians in the ring. Some times I don't ;-)

Megaladon
Dec. 20, 2010, 02:48 PM
I have no problem with a trainer seated in one place in the arena. Content and ability count with me. If I cannot hear I say so. It is then fixed.

Having several horses going in the ring does not make for a good place for trainers to be standing. I really hate dodging pedestrians in the ring.

:yes:

I actually prefer them to sit/be in a safe spot. That way, when I'm in the "lesson zone" I don't have to worry about running someone over. CHA is all about the instructor running around, yelling, touching/pushing/chasing the horse--which is fine if it's needed at a crucial point, but downright distracting to me during a whole lesson. It's totally a personality/how you learn thing.

Velvet
Dec. 20, 2010, 02:54 PM
I think it depends on the level of the student. I think that for the lower level riders, having the instructor in the middle of the ring (middle of the circle, etc.) helps the student. They often feel that you are actively in the trenches with them and you can force them to look at you (the instructor) when they need to stop obsessing and change their focus for a second. It also helps because you can quickly demonstrate what you want them to do--and be more specific than if you're sitting on your butt in the corner.

With students who are further along, sitting in the corner and watching is fine But, again, if they're working on a problem you need to get down in the ring and sometimes stop them and really show them with your body or point out on their body, what needs to be done.

katarine
Dec. 20, 2010, 02:58 PM
I'm new to dressage but not new to riding. My instructor sits in the gate near A so she can see me better, or she sits between M and B, closer to M, to see me. She sits more than stands, no worries. Or she'll sit at B or E in order to say nope, that was an EGG, Kat, I need a circle. lol

She uses her voice effectively to drive a point home, to support me, or question me.

If you don't like this approach, hire someone else. What's the big deal?

goeslikestink
Dec. 20, 2010, 03:06 PM
I get really annoyed when I pay $150+ for a lesson and the trainer sits on his/her butt in the corner of the arena and yells at me across the arena. I think the trainer needs to be closer to the combination to really see what is happening and to offer assistance. I also think it is just bad manners, I know being on your feet all day is tiring, but, hey, you chose this proffession. I had a trainer, who is now retired, but he would be on his feet close to the rider for the entire lesson and he was 73 years old! He was also a top rider in his day, competing at the highest levels in all three Olympic disciplines. He used to say that when he was doing his bereiter training in Germany, they were taught that they always had to be standing while teaching. It's an etiquette thing. I feel this is especially important with lower level riders and it also just shows that you respect your students. Is this just me, or does anyone else feel like this too?

i would ditch the trianer in that case if sitting on a fence or in a corner

i like to be in the middle where the action is, and if nessacary go around with my lessons as i like to watch ther contact and how shall i say the bum as in seat
making sure they are in harmony with the horse at all times as you can see or tweak aperson the nearer you are be hand legs seat schoulders etc

goeslikestink
Dec. 20, 2010, 03:11 PM
I'm new to dressage but not new to riding. My instructor sits in the gate near A so she can see me better, or she sits between M and B, closer to M, to see me. She sits more than stands, no worries. Or she'll sit at B or E in order to say nope, that was an EGG, Kat, I need a circle. lol

She uses her voice effectively to drive a point home, to support me, or question me.

If you don't like this approach, hire someone else. What's the big deal?

in answer they miss alot out when further away
if your closer you can pick it up quickly and correct it early before it becomes a habit for the rider or the horse

ThreeFigs
Dec. 20, 2010, 03:28 PM
I can see the point of sitting in a corner or along the short side if there are several instructors and/or several riders in the same arena at the same time.

The barns where I teach are semi-private or private, so that's never been a problem!

I agree that changing perspective (inside the circle to outside the circle, standing along the long side, in the corner, whatever, as the student runs through exercises gives the instructor more info to work with.

katarine
Dec. 20, 2010, 03:39 PM
in answer they miss alot out when further away
if your closer you can pick it up quickly and correct it early before it becomes a habit for the rider or the horse

How much closer do you want a person to be, than sitting at B? LOL

mjhco
Dec. 20, 2010, 05:06 PM
I can see the point of sitting in a corner or along the short side if there are several instructors and/or several riders in the same arena at the same time.

The barns where I teach are semi-private or private, so that's never been a problem!

I agree that changing perspective (inside the circle to outside the circle, standing along the long side, in the corner, whatever, as the student runs through exercises gives the instructor more info to work with.

It is not unusual where I am to have 3 lessons going on at the same time. And other horses being worked. Particularly on Saturdays. It really complicates things when you get pedestrians out there as well.

If the situation calls for it certainly the trainer will come into the ring. We practice canter pirouettes by using the pirouette around the trainer/try to step on the trainer method.

shawneeAcres
Dec. 20, 2010, 05:25 PM
Normally I am on my feet moving the entire lesson when I teach. On days when I teach 4 or 5 lessons I can barely move at night! The sand in the arena is VERY ROUGH on my bad hip. But I cannot sit and teach. Occasionally I will sit on the brick wall jump for a few minutes while student os working at that end of my arena. My arena is 250 x 140 so I cover a LOT of ground. I cannot really remember ever taking a lesson when the instructor sat

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Dec. 20, 2010, 05:40 PM
Well, I definitely think it depends on the engagement level of the instructor. I have attended a clinic where I said "ok, if he doesn't get up for *my* lesson, I'm not coming back". Luckily he did and became one of my favorite clinicians.

goeslikestink
Dec. 20, 2010, 05:43 PM
How much closer do you want a person to be, than sitting at B? LOL

lol love you to i will meet you at x

goeslikestink
Dec. 20, 2010, 05:45 PM
I can see the point of sitting in a corner or along the short side if there are several instructors and/or several riders in the same arena at the same time.

The barns where I teach are semi-private or private, so that's never been a problem!

I agree that changing perspective (inside the circle to outside the circle, standing along the long side, in the corner, whatever, as the student runs through exercises gives the instructor more info to work with.

thing is that just wouldnt happen here we never have laods of instructors/ riders in the same ring
its would be classed as safety issue so there fore a hazzard

group rding is max of 4 per lesson and one instructor
as no one can keep there eye or work more than for at any one time
private lessons are 1-1 and no interruptions of any other in the areana

Alter1234
Dec. 20, 2010, 05:48 PM
My instructor will stay within a few feet of you on foot during most lessons. This is most helpful as she sees exactly what you're doing, when you're doing it.

When schooling outside during the summer months, she will sometimes sit on a fence, etc. and that's OK too.

Every once in awhile though, she will be mounted for a lesson - I find that those lessons are the most ineffective for me.

katarine
Dec. 20, 2010, 05:53 PM
lol love you to i will meet you at x

I didn't mean it in a grumpy way- I was serious. If multiple horses are in the arena and anyone knows how to ride, x is going to be a popular spot.

what is with the sand in everyone's shorts today?

Amazone
Dec. 20, 2010, 07:49 PM
I completely understand if the trainer takes a break now and then and sits on the fence or wherever or if he/she has to stay out of the way because there are multiple riders in the arena. I was referring to trainers that just sit there because they are too lazy to walk around and engage more with the rider.

twotrudoc
Dec. 20, 2010, 07:57 PM
I haven't seen many lessons (in any discipline) that didn't use Comtek or something similar.

http://www.comtek.com/personal.html

Amazone
Dec. 20, 2010, 08:06 PM
My issue is not that I can't hear what the trainer is saying, I simply feel that a trainer should be closer to the rider to observe better exactly what the rider is doing and what the horse is doing and to show the rider with their own body what needs to be done when needed. I just feel you can engage better when you stand a bit closer, sure take breaks when needed, but if I pay good money for a lesson, I expect a bit of an effort. Again, this is my personal opinion and I feel that I learn more this way and that I can also help my students better in this way. Perhaps trainers should see what works best for every particular student.

twotrudoc
Dec. 20, 2010, 08:26 PM
Oh, I see. When I read your OP about the instructor yelling across the arena I thought that meant that was part of your issue.

Carol O
Dec. 20, 2010, 08:56 PM
I do not care if the trainer is standing or sitting, as long as the focus is on me. I get back pain when I stand too long, or sit too long, so I need to change it up often; I would not be against someone working for me doing the same as long as they were continuing to work for me.

katarine
Dec. 20, 2010, 09:00 PM
Meh, again, it's about perception and what you want or need. My trainer has some physical issues that prohibit her from hotfooting it across the arena post-haste. That does not prohibit her from seeing the slightest error on my part and me hearing about it, post-haste ;) If you consider your trainer to be a veritable bump on a log, lounging about spitting out witticisms about more outside leg, darling...then maybe you need a new trainer. I don't. So go get ya one :)

goeslikestink
Dec. 21, 2010, 02:34 AM
I didn't mean it in a grumpy way- I was serious. If multiple horses are in the arena and anyone knows how to ride, x is going to be a popular spot.

what is with the sand in everyone's shorts today?

dudnt take it as being grumpy mate i forgot that over there one has multiples lessons in rhe same place going on at the same time
just wouldnt be done here

SharonA
Dec. 21, 2010, 08:59 PM
Damn. My trainer can see through my horse's body to see what my opposite foot is doing, can tell me how muscle A on my body is affecting muscle Z on my horse, can tell whether my core position is correct through 3 layers of winter clothing, can tell whether I'm breathing properly, and can tell whether my fingers are closed on the reins from 180 feet away -- while sitting in a corner of the 80 by 180 ring, under a blanket, with a dog more or less in her lap. I get away with nothing! Nothing! :-)

But, she also has no problem getting up and coming out with the longe whip if Madame is feeling excessively rudely sluglike.

When I read about the issues so many others have had to deal with, I am grateful, for the millionth time, for my barn. I am so grateful to COTH for helping me articulate the "must haves" for my horse and me!

Xfactor
Dec. 22, 2010, 06:37 AM
I think much simply depends on learning style and level of rider

I've had lessons and attended clinics with trainers that sit and call out. Very good instruction, yes.

But for me, as I find my auditory finesse is less than optimal, I like having my trainer in the trenches. I'm farrrrrr from an upper level rider, have a farrr from schoolmasterish horse, and frequently need "Ok, like THIS" type of instruction.

Esp in summer when birds can fill the arena, I simply cannot hear across an echo and chirp filled expanse.

When I have treated myself to a particular trainer who does in fact have a schoolmaster, and her arena is quiet, I have no objection to sideline intruction. Tho even she has gotten up and walked beside me, demonstrating what she is saying.

Difficulty for me is that I am such a visual learner, that anything auditory is hard enough as it is..add a smidge of interference and I may as well be teaching myself.

But...that is MY issue, not the trainer's. So bottom line, quality of instruction is not the issue. It's more a matter of, will a trainer teach ME the way I need to be taught. If not, I just find a trainer that is not rigid in his/her own "style" and will teach to the student, not at the student.

Lucky for me I found one.

ooh had to add....I need to rephrase something; what I meant to say about quality of instruction..well of COURSE that IS the issue...what I meant was sitting/standing/walking is not a gauge of quality

Liz Steacie
Dec. 22, 2010, 07:42 AM
I think if people focused more on the content and less on the method of delivery, more might get accomplished. Too much in our sport is style over substance. Sitting, standing, walking around ... bah, it's not important. What IS important is calm, logical, exercise based, progressive training and instruction, where the riders and horses improve and develop.

BetterOffRed
Dec. 22, 2010, 09:29 AM
My instructor is usually on her feet in the middle of the arena, or using herself as a human traffic cone (eek!). But I am usually in the arena about 15 to 20 minutes before my lesson and she also has a (good) habit of teaching even when you are warming up (okay for some- extra lesson time, right?). But since I am usually coming from work, I usually need that warm up time about 10 minutes to redirect my focus and get in the zone as well as get us warmed up...so now she knows she can use that first 10 minutes before my lesson to check her voice mail or email. But since she has instilled really good warm up habits in me she doesn't have to teach me in the warm up... and then she's up and off to the middle of the arena. But I swear she has eyes in the back of her head!

One of the best lesson I've ever had was when she was teaching me and cleaning the horse hair out of her DSBs(she never does this!)....I never knew when she was looking up but she knew exactly when I made a mistake, even when I was riding away from her! LOL!

merrygoround
Dec. 22, 2010, 11:53 AM
In my experience it depends on the student, and the object of the lesson. However the instructor's location in the arena should never interfere with their focus on the rider.

Some student-horse combinations require a constant close presence. In general though, I feel I can see what needs to corrected, better from a distance.

If you have a combo working on lateral work, a location at the foot of the arena is preferred. From there you can easily see the rider's position, and how it is affecting the accuracy of the movement.

I have seen too many high priced clinicians park themselves in the center of a circle, and totally miss the obvious to an outside the circle auditor, the fact that the rider is sitting off balance. Or even worse, as it should have been observed in a pre-ride inspection, that one stirrup is longer than another.

Velvet
Dec. 22, 2010, 12:02 PM
I haven't seen many lessons (in any discipline) that didn't use Comtek or something similar.

http://www.comtek.com/personal.html

Sounds like an ad. Got shares in the company? :lol:

Velvet
Dec. 22, 2010, 12:04 PM
My instructor is usually on her feet in the middle of the arena, or using herself as a human traffic cone (eek!).

I once had a horrible instructor do this, back when I was first learning. She was horrible because she didn't tell me HOW to steer the horse around her, she just yelled at me that I'd better or she'd kill me if I ran her over. Can you say "ineffective and terrifying teaching method?" :eek: Even though I was young I was smart enough to know that she sucked. :lol: Never went back again.

AnotherRound
Dec. 22, 2010, 12:34 PM
Hm. My trainer is all around me. Close, and able to see and comment constantly. At times, she can walk up and point or touch or press my leg in a certain way.

Sometimes she is mounted, and rides along with me so she can see from a higher vantage point what I am doing. She can demonstrate a certain detail. Also, sometimes mounted, we can ride in unison, and my horse mirrors her horse and I can also mirror her, with a new movement. For example, its how we first experienced the half pass at a trot, last week. Very interesting.

Always though, if no where else, she is in the center of the arena. Last week, she stood OUTSIDE my circle to discuss my outside aids.

Arizona DQ
Dec. 22, 2010, 12:50 PM
Damn. My trainer can see through my horse's body to see what my opposite foot is doing, can tell me how muscle A on my body is affecting muscle Z on my horse, can tell whether my core position is correct through 3 layers of winter clothing, can tell whether I'm breathing properly, and can tell whether my fingers are closed on the reins from 180 feet away -- while sitting in a corner of the 80 by 180 ring, under a blanket, with a dog more or less in her lap. I get away with nothing! Nothing! :-)



We must have similar trainers :winkgrin:. Actually, my trainer rides my horse once a week, so she knows exactly what I may be doing wrong, what my mare is trying to get away with and how to correct me or her..... I could care less if she sits, as long as she is focused on me and I can hear her. Even when I think she is not watching or paying attention, she catches me doing something wrong.....:no:

She will come into the arena to show me something new or help me with a specific issue when necessary.

I did ride with one clincian who liked to stand right next to my horse. My horse was very reluctanct to move forward with a person standing so close and this is a horse who is very forward! :eek:

MXL
Dec. 22, 2010, 12:56 PM
What is most important to me is whether the instructor is focused on my "learning" vis her "teaching." Whether sitting or standing or yelling or whispering, I appreciate a teacher who aims to help me learn. And my "learning" style is to focus on one or maybe two things per lesson, in an attempt to "feel" what we're working on. Usually, in my experience, the yelling (from either a standing or a sitting position) is just pointing out my _faults_--in quick succession (e.g., "sit up straight; more outside rein; more inside leg; supple his neck!!"). Such directives don't help me learn. I've found a wonderful instructor who stands (usually in the center, but sometimes outside--as per another post), and who provides me with directions, and limits her directions while I'm executing an exercise, and/but we discuss what happened, did not happen after the exercise. This helps me focus on what I'm doing/trying to do/the goal of the exercise and then "debrief" in conclusion, and then try the exercise again. I'm sure others have different learning styles, but _I_, for one, never responded positively to instructors who yelled at me, nonstop--from a sitting or standing position!

Nojacketrequired
Dec. 22, 2010, 03:58 PM
I get really annoyed when I pay $150+ for a lesson and the trainer sits on his/her butt in the corner of the arena and yells at me across the arena.

If you feel you're learning $150.00 worth,then what does it matter if she's sitting or standing. If you feel she would be able togive you more out of the lesson if she WERE standing closer to you, discuss it with her.

Heck, if someone was paying ME $150.00/hour, I'd run alongside if that's what you wanted.

If you DON'T feel you are getting your $150.00 worth, then either discuss it with the trainer and fix the issue or find another trainer.

$150.00 an hour????? I'm not sure the President makes $150.00 an hour...:lol:

NJR

Amazone
Dec. 22, 2010, 05:10 PM
NJR, you will be surprised to hear what trainers charge in my area, some are even close to $200, and we are not talking world champions! I need to find a good trainer. Problem is, my old trainer was so brilliant, nobody else I have ridden with can even compare, but sadly he is in a different country!

Megaladon
Dec. 22, 2010, 05:54 PM
This is where I draw the line:

When the instructor has to leave during the lesson to go make themselves a Jack & Coke, and then go back several times for a refill...:lol:

Oberon13
Dec. 22, 2010, 08:16 PM
So, it sounds like you're struggling with a couple of separate (but related) issues: comparing this trainer to the old one (inevitable and understandable), not being able to hear (again, understandable), and not sure you want to spend the amount of money you're spending for the product you're receiving.

One of those issues is fairly simple to resolve on your own...comparing folks in our lives is rather easy. Taking each person as he/she truly is is a more difficult task. But, that's entirely up to you.

The other two issues involve talking to the trainer. I agree that at $150/hr. I'd better be receiving lessons that challenge and inspire me every single time. Of course, I have a responsibility in that as well...to look for ways to understand better, to feel better, to ride better, to truly "hear" my horse better, etc. However, seriously, $150/hr. makes for a HUGE incentive to do a little talking with my trainer if I didn't feel like I was getting my money's worth.

Nojacketrequired
Dec. 22, 2010, 08:38 PM
NJR, you will be surprised to hear what trainers charge in my area, some are even close to $200, and we are not talking world champions!

Surprised doesn't quite cover it. :eek:

NJR

BetterOffRed
Dec. 22, 2010, 08:51 PM
This is where I draw the line:

When the instructor has to leave during the lesson to go make themselves a Jack & Coke, and then go back several times for a refill...:lol:

ROFL!

How about if horse and rider need gas masks to breathe through the cigarette smoke?

Wayside
Dec. 22, 2010, 09:22 PM
This is where I draw the line:

When the instructor has to leave during the lesson to go make themselves a Jack & Coke, and then go back several times for a refill...:lol:

I don't know, the way some people ride, that might not be a bad idea :eek: :lol:

In all seriousness, my instructors over the years have done a combination of sit, walk, and stand, in the middle of the ring, and on the sidelines, and I can't say that I noticed any correlation between that and the quality of instruction. As a previous poster mentioned, the really good instructors will be able to tell you what the leg on the opposite side of the horse is doing from the far end of the arena, so there's really no need for some of them to follow you around.

Behind the 8 Ball
Dec. 23, 2010, 08:18 AM
This is where I draw the line:

When the instructor has to leave during the lesson to go make themselves a Jack & Coke, and then go back several times for a refill...:lol:

I would only draw the line there if they forgot my glass!!!:D

Megaladon
Dec. 23, 2010, 10:17 AM
ROFL!

How about if horse and rider need gas masks to breathe through the cigarette smoke?

Is that what that is? Here I thought it was a combonation of arena dust and their blue-gray auras! :lol:

Behind the 8 Ball: Ha!! :lol: Although I'd prefer a Margarita, with salt please! :cool: