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NJRider
Dec. 14, 2010, 12:45 PM
I live in a remote area and have a nice young WB for sale for a reasonable price. Several trainers know about him and at some point it is possible I may get an inquiry because of the connection to the trainer. His listed price does not include any cushion for commissions. How does that work? Do buyers who buyer with the help of their own trainer expect to pay their trainer a commission? Should the price be raised to include an 10% cushion, or should the ad say something about price does not include any buyer's trainer commissions?

Petstorejunkie
Dec. 14, 2010, 12:50 PM
i'm not an expert on the subject, but it's my understanding the buyer pays _% of what the horse sold for to the finder, or includes it in the check to the seller, and seller pays.
think of them as closing costs on a house. ... whatever the contract states is how they get paid.

Melyni
Dec. 14, 2010, 01:01 PM
but which ever way you choose to do it, make sure you tell/discuss it with the professional first so that all parties are clearly aware of it and who pays what to whom.

It generally is a % of the sale price, but it does not have to be, it can be a flat finders fee, just make sure that all parties know up front.
I like to put it into the contract as well, that x commission was paid to Y person on the sale so that there is no misunderstanding or confusion.
I've seen a lot of big fights etc over commissions so now I like to spell it out clearly.
MW

netg
Dec. 14, 2010, 01:26 PM
It depends on the individuals involved.

My breed show trainer I used to ride with didn't take commissions for helping students find horses, but if a horse was sold through him (which usually meant he'd also work the horse as much as it needed to show well, and not charge the client for that time) he would take a commission. He always rode the horse to show it to buyers, groomed it beforehand, etc. Of course, that's way more service than typical, which is why despite having national champions every year he isn't rich, but is adored by his clients.


My trainer is the only reason we found my mom's horse, and she refused to let my mom pay her commission. She detoured to pick up the horse on her way from an out of state horse show, taking an extra 4-ish hours for the drive back, and charged less than we thought she should for that... so my mom "accidentally" wrote the check for more than she said. I don't know that she expected commission when I bought my horse, but since I bought him from another client, the woman I bought him from had me write a separate check for my trainer, 10% of the purchase price. I would have done the same thing.

I think if your horse isn't going to be seen by people unless these trainers bring clients in, you should be paying them commission. In essence, you have more than one agent helping you sell the horse in that case, and if they do the job for you should get commission on it.

H/J world seems to have some pretty defined roles for commissions, but I haven't seen that same strict definition in other areas of the horse world.

2tempe
Dec. 14, 2010, 02:42 PM
I bought a new horse last year w/ help/support from my Trainer. She got 10% of the purchase price. It was over and above what I paid to the seller. We looked at a bunch, in multiple locations. Seller did not pay a commission to anyone as she had the horse advertised on Dressage Daily; said horse was only actually for sale maybe a month till we got the deal done.

ACP
Dec. 14, 2010, 02:42 PM
If a prospective buyer brings their trainer with them, the buyer pays their trainer a fee.

If a trainer you know - not ride with, just know - remembers your horse and says to a person, "I know a horse...." that is a gray area. This is where you hope the buyer doesn't bring their trainer, so that they can do the commission. Or you could, as suggested by someone else, say that the price DOES NOT COVER any trainer's fee.

If a trainer you ASK "Help me sell my horse, please," brings a person, then the trainer is your agent, and you pay a fee to them.

caddym
Dec. 14, 2010, 03:10 PM
I agree with Melyni that it is important to be upfront about the commission. When you get inquiries, if they ask about the price tell them that it does NOT include a commission. Be prepared that a professional may then ask you to raise the price to include a 10% commission for their client.

It also is probable that a trainer may get 10% from you and another 10% from their client - so don't be shocked. I have also heard of trainers waiving their commissions to help clients out.

Melyni
Dec. 14, 2010, 03:21 PM
I agree with Melyni that it is important to be upfront about the commission. When you get inquiries, if they ask about the price tell them that it does NOT include a commission. Be prepared that a professional may then ask you to raise the price to include a 10% commission for their client.

It also is probable that a trainer may get 10% from you and another 10% from their client - so don't be shocked. I have also heard of trainers waiving their commissions to help clients out.

getting commissions from both buyer and seller is, in fact, illegal.
It is called "taking from both ends" and if the resulting sale should end up in a court of law for some reason, it could get the person who took both commissions into trouble.

In real estate it can void the sale.

But it is, as Caddym says, quite common in the horse industry.

Just sayin

MW

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 14, 2010, 04:13 PM
Melyni is 100% correct. Legally, it's called "dual agency." Here's a good explanation of it:
http://www.chamberlainlaw.com/assets/attachments/Website_dual_agency_equine_law_presentation.pdf

Velvet
Dec. 14, 2010, 04:24 PM
I bought a new horse last year w/ help/support from my Trainer. She got 10% of the purchase price. It was over and above what I paid to the seller. We looked at a bunch, in multiple locations. Seller did not pay a commission to anyone as she had the horse advertised on Dressage Daily; said horse was only actually for sale maybe a month till we got the deal done.

In the DRESSAGE world (and yes, it is very different from say the hunter and jumper world), this is correct. The buyer's agent is paid by the buyer. If the agent is representing the seller, then they are paid by the seller.

Sometimes they play both ends against the middle. Nothing wrong with that.

Also, the agent will sometimes complete the transaction and will mark up the price of the horse a bit (or handle the bargaining and work a commission in that way) and will take some of the money from the table/sale. A lot of times the buyer and seller get bent. Hey, if the buyer thought the horse was worth the price they paid, and the seller agreed to a certain price for the horse, then the other money does belong to the agent. It's ony slimy if the people who agreed upon an amount are not paid what they agreed to--or the buyer has the price jerked up at the last minute to pad the bill. This usually only happens with high end horses and people who are active agents shopping around here and especially in Europe.

Here in the states, it works with an upfront agreement (often in writing) as to who gets what and it's usually a 10% finders fee from whomever the agent reps.

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 14, 2010, 07:19 PM
In the DRESSAGE world (and yes, it is very different from say the hunter and jumper world), this is correct. The buyer's agent is paid by the buyer. If the agent is representing the seller, then they are paid by the seller.

Sometimes they play both ends against the middle. Nothing wrong with that.

Also, the agent will sometimes complete the transaction and will mark up the price of the horse a bit (or handle the bargaining and work a commission in that way) and will take some of the money from the table/sale. A lot of times the buyer and seller get bent. Hey, if the buyer thought the horse was worth the price they paid, and the seller agreed to a certain price for the horse, then the other money does belong to the agent. It's ony slimy if the people who agreed upon an amount are not paid what they agreed to--or the buyer has the price jerked up at the last minute to pad the bill. This usually only happens with high end horses and people who are active agents shopping around here and especially in Europe.

Here in the states, it works with an upfront agreement (often in writing) as to who gets what and it's usually a 10% finders fee from whomever the agent reps.

There is plenty wrong with it legally speaking unless it is all spelled out in advance in writing. Otherwise, there is an inherent conflict of interest on the part of the agent and a breach of his fiduciary duty to whomever he is supposed to be representing. :no:

Someone pays for the services of an agent to get the benefit of their knowledge and experience. If they are using that expertise to benefit someone else--or to help themselves--they have breached their duty as an agent and will be liable.

Sorry, but that's the law, whether it is in the dressage, h/j or racing world.