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rebecca
Apr. 27, 2004, 09:34 AM
Windfall and Darren
They totally proved themselves this weekend, don`t you think?
Darren can deal with pressure about as well as anybody out there.

rebecca
Apr. 27, 2004, 09:34 AM
Windfall and Darren
They totally proved themselves this weekend, don`t you think?
Darren can deal with pressure about as well as anybody out there.

TrakEventer
Apr. 27, 2004, 09:52 AM
I'm with you rebecca... How can anyone question the merit of a horse who took the USET Spring Championship last year by placing 2nd at Foxhall, then the Pan Am gold last fall, and now the first **** modified division... his dressage was nearly flawless, XC the fastest he's ever run, and the show jumping almost without fault... To see him at the breeding seminar up close and personal really makes one appreciate his studliness http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif... Anyone else have any input??

I know there was some disagreement earlier on the board about his ability to run fast enough across country to satisfy the Athens selectors, but to be only 4 seconds over time in heavy going and having taken one long route? What more can you ask for?? I'd love some input as I think he's absolutely stunning http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that I have a Windfoal in the oven due any day now... *grins*...

goobs
Apr. 27, 2004, 10:01 AM
Windfall is absolutely gorgeous! What a pair they make. Sends shivers down my spine! Congratulations to them both! Trakeventer - you MUST post pictures of your windfall baby once it gets here! I am thinking (when the time comes in a few years) of breeding my mare to him as well.

maplebrook
Apr. 27, 2004, 10:28 AM
Rolex was the first time I got to see Windfall in person, and he is every bit as beautiful as I expected. Darren also seemed to do an excellent job with him through all 3 phases. I'm impressed and hope the team selectors are too.
Oh how I wish I had a mare to breed. I'd love one of Windfall's babies!

secretariat
Apr. 27, 2004, 11:40 AM
His weaknesses seem to be his gallop and the water on XC (the ground was NOT that heavy -- a little in places, but in most areas was good to excellent. Look at the number of horses who made the time, and at the time that Winsome Adante posted). Chiacia whipped him through the head of the lake. If that's the only holes he has, pretty damned awesome. Clear in my mind that he and Winsome Adante are the top two candidates for the Olympic team. Will be very interesting to who else survives.

Lisa Cook
Apr. 27, 2004, 12:10 PM
Agreed that Windfall looked impressive this week. I was at the Head of the Lake when he came blazing through in terrific form. Certainly no water issues with this horse right now! Windfall's form over the massive oxer just before the Head of the Lake was so specatuclar that the people all around me collectively "ooohed" in appreciation at the sight.

However - one minor note regarding Secreatriat's comment of Windfall's time vs. Windsome Adante - you can't compare the times of Windfall vs. Windsome Adante as they ran in separate divisions and Windfall had the shorter course to run.

Holly Jeanne
Apr. 27, 2004, 12:29 PM
They really have formed a great partnership now, haven't they!? By the way, they had Windfall t-shirts on sale at the Trak booth. I bought one for my neice. They say Windfall on the front and have a picture of them jumping on the back. It says something like "for now and for the future." Go Traks!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

“Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.” Goethe

ideayoda
Apr. 27, 2004, 12:35 PM
And just like the rider of Graf Georg should thank M. Poulin, he should thank Ingrid for the perfect training upon which the horse is based.

I.D.E.A. yoda

slp2
Apr. 27, 2004, 01:03 PM
Well, I WAS impressed by how poised Windfall was during the awards ceremony. My theory is that he (Windfall) was probably busy dreaming about how many breeding contracts are coming his way now (yeah babyyyy! He, he!) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But I also did see him get a "spanking" at the Head of the Lake. I don't think Darren wanted to take a chance on just "using his leg" to get him in the drink!

Robby Johnson
Apr. 27, 2004, 01:56 PM
And how neat that Ballymar was the highest placing mare and won the booking to Windfall! As she is 3/4 TB, and he is at least 1/2 TB, I actually think that could be a great combination! I wonder if her owner will jump on the chance, now that she is retiring? I sure hope so! That would definitely perpetuate an impressive eventing sporthorse pedigree.

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

Pol
Apr. 27, 2004, 02:03 PM
BallyMar is the coolest. I wish Jim was around to see her ... or, no, to have ridden her.

gillenwaterfarm
Apr. 27, 2004, 04:21 PM
"Look at the number of horses who made the time..."

Umm, according to my scoreboard, printed out from the Rolex site, only 5 horses went through that modified course with NO time penalties. Of the ones that HAD penalties, the smallest was .4 and the highest was 49.6.

So compared to the others that ran the exact same course, Windfall's 1.2 time penalties are nothing.

I'll second whoever said Windfall and Windsome Adante are at the top of the selectors lists...

And what is this about Ballymar winning a booking to Windfall? How was that worked?

Megan

Megan

"Tell her you loff her und that you don't nott to want to live with no other modder ever. If she don't nott to get the hint, start to cry und stamp your feets. If this it don't nott to work, buck." Willem

subk
Apr. 27, 2004, 04:51 PM
I was sitting beside Ballymar's owners, the Penniman's during dressage. We were in the Patron's tent and didn't realize at first who they were. By the middle of the test all of us were in tears. What a great and bittersweet weekend for them and a memorable Rolex moment for me.

Ballymar won a the booking with Windfall as the top placed mare. The Holcamps obviously donated it weeks/months ago. Coinciedent Windfall won.

I was impressed by Windfall this weekend. I think he's the perfect example of the ability of a warmblood to shine in the Modified format. I think if he stays sound he can be quite successful in Athens. However, it is a bit gushing to suggest his dressage was "nearly flawless." Lovely yes, flawless no. Given the choice of horses though, I'd pick Windsome Adante hands down.

Perfect Pony
Apr. 27, 2004, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by subk:
I was impressed by Windfall this weekend. I think he's the perfect example of the ability of a warmblood to shine in the Modified format. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I throw my ignorance out there for everyone to see, but I would think of Windfall (and a lot of Traks) as having a lot of TB/Arab breeding, and coming very close to the 3/4-7/8th TB that many eventers say is a nice horse for eventing, regular or modified. I confess I had a lot of time on my hands this week and read a great deal about this horse (who I think is spectacular). He is a great deal TB, and the Trak is a great deal TB/Arab (one of the reasons I like them so much). I personally have a hard time thinking of a Trakehner as a 'typical' WB.

But, I am just returning to this game of horses, please feel free to tear me a new one if I am incorrect. It was just my understanding that the Trakehner was a great eventing horse because of this?

"Dan the Man" (http://community.webshots.com/user/kalitude)

Mary in Area 1
Apr. 27, 2004, 07:46 PM
Um, I thought the Pingree's still owned Ballymar. They bred her. Can't imagine they would sell her to the Penniman's.

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo

subk
Apr. 27, 2004, 08:02 PM
Sorry, I got my "Pens" messed up. Thanks for the clarification.

LCR
Apr. 27, 2004, 08:47 PM
A reminder to those not familiar with Windfall's pedigree. He is a Habicht son and Habicht had his own impressive Eventing career.

The "Arabian" in the background is NOT Arabian it is the purebred SHAGYA stallion, LAPIS. The SHAGYA is NOT an Arabian--it is its own 200 year old breed, a designer breed, created to add Arabian blood without the typical flaws often found in this breed.

Instead they set out to add larger bone, steady minds, greater height, everything positive found in the modern day sport horse. Purebred Arabian is added every 4th generation or so and is the only allowed outcross.

The breed is similar to the Trakehner, that only allows TB, OX or Shagya as outcross.

Windfall is typical of the Shagya temperament, the Hungarians demanded and it seems to pass on through several generations.

The true, purebred Shagya is very rare in the U.S. but in the past few years new bloodlines have been imported from Europe. Shagya stallions crossed on TB mares is an exceptional cross and gives you the Anglo-Shagya, the exact same cross that produced another well known stallion, Ramzes.

I was told that Windfall was called an Anglo-Trakehner. Just remember that the Arabian part is SHAGYA, very different then Arabian!!

www.shagyasport.com (http://www.shagyasport.com)

Painted Wings
Apr. 27, 2004, 09:46 PM
I watched them through the squirrel jump. They looked great compared to the many sticky rides I saw through there. I have followed this horse since Tim Holkamp sent me the email about his exciting trip to Germany and detailing the purchase of Windfall before the horse even came to the US.

Darren has done a marvelous job with him. Darren works very hard at everything and it is not suprising the success he has had. I don't know where he finds the energy. He is a true professional in every sense of the word.

On that note, does anyone know of any packages to Athens to see the three day???? Now I'm thinking I need to go watch in person in spite of the fact that I hate crowds.

-Painted Wings

Set youself apart from the crowd, ride a paint horse, you're sure to be spotted

Maren
Apr. 28, 2004, 04:06 AM
I'm with Porcelain Pony on this one, Windfall is the perfect example of what a Trakehner should look like. And while his Shagya background is certainly important, he does not resemble his Shagya ancestors as much as he does his black herd genes from Trakehnen. And that runs true for most Habicht offspring, and Habicht himself too. If you carefully evaluate all his sons, and daughters alike, you will come to notice that the genetic background of Goldregen and Polarstern carries the most significant dominance in this line, no matter how much TB/Shagya was crossed back on.

That is what really makes this line so very interesting in terms of breeding event horses with a high % of TB/Arab influence. I just had a Windfilly out of an English TB mare, and the filly is everything we had hoped for. Very athletic, bold, nicely put together and certainly a very obvious "Habicht" girl.

@ ideayoda,

I think you will notice that Ingrid's name is in every singel one of Tim Holekamp's paragraphs on this stallion. Fact is, he came with issues and his true CCI format was developed by Darren, and nobody else. Cudos to Ingrid for developing a great horse, and cudos to Darren for taking him up the ladder and onto the next level. It was not like he got on and everything was smooth and easy!

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

Heather
Apr. 28, 2004, 05:39 AM
I think Darren and Windfall answered a lot of questions this weekend, and I expect to see them on the team, barring soundeness or last minute weirdness (happenes every year to somebody).

That being said, I can't say they top my list, because I feel that spot belongs soley to Kim and Dan. I've been watching and involved in the top levels of this sport for just about 15 years, and I can say with no guile, that her perfromance this weekend was one of the most amazing I have ever seen. I had goosebumps every time they were in the ring or on course. The partnership between those two is almost eerie, and that horse is just truly amazing.

I also wish John Williams was getting little more hoopla for his performance--lovely dressage (6th), double clear XC (one of the few), and a greatly improved show jumping round that showed just what he's been up to this winter (just tipped the last fence). I'd put him near the top for a slot also.

But I digress.

For whatever reason, that I can't quite put my finger on I don't love Windfall. I mean, I admire him, and I give him full kudos for a series of super performances. I think he's proven he deserves a shot on the team. But I just haven't fallen all moony-in-love-with him. Not sure why, he just doesn't get me all worked up. (And no, it's not the warmblood thing, I actually have really enjoyed riding Traks--great personalities.) So odd.

Anyhoo, Darren did a good job this weekend, andI'm sure he'll get his shot. We all just need to start praying for the soundness gods to smile on everyone in the selection process this year.

TrakEventer
Apr. 28, 2004, 06:12 AM
Yes, Ballymar did win the breeding to Windfall, however, due to pedigree issues, it won't be happening... Tim researched her pedigree and apparently her grandsire is a Trakehner improvement sire, and his grandsire, that would be her great great grandsire, is Goldregen, who is also Windfall's sire's dam. Unfortunately, the other mare entered, Psalm XXIII, did not complete, and there were not any other mares entered this year...

Robby Johnson
Apr. 28, 2004, 06:33 AM
So is the third generation back "too close?" If so, don't tell Rhodey!

TrakEventer, I think you might want to edit your post. It's about as confusing as a family reunion in West Virginia.

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

Lisamarie8
Apr. 28, 2004, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
It's about as confusing as a family reunion in West Virginia.

Robby

_ Dance and sing get up and do your thing ..._

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robby Dear, I don't think they think those are all that confusing. But what do I know... it's all relative.

--- Ordinary life is pretty complex stuff.

Perfect Pony
Apr. 28, 2004, 07:15 AM
Maren,
It's nice to see you on here. Not sure if you remember me but I looked at the Trak/Arab filly Mimi, who I still wish I owned http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I confess I am not well versed in the Arab/Shagya differences, although I do know there are differences. Most of the reading I have done about the breed just refers to the Arab influence without specifying. nevertheless, what I like about the Trakehners are how different they are to a typical warmblood. Windfall is no exception.

"Dan the Man" (http://community.webshots.com/user/kalitude)

Maren
Apr. 28, 2004, 08:07 AM
@ Porcelain Pony,

yes, I do remember you!
And whatever "Bay Area" specifies, I'm almost half way through ending up in your "neighborhood" this year....would be nice to meet, if it really works out.

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

Maren
Apr. 28, 2004, 08:09 AM
Ops, forgot, regarding Trakeventer's concern with the linebreeding, that is NOTHING compared to other Trak pedigrees. Linebreeding to Goldregen is really way back and not even uncommon. I think it is more a reason to do the cross, instead of not doing it.
And there is more Trak blood in Belly Mar, the dam line of her sire traces back to the Trakehner Lateran, who was a known improvement sire in Hanover at his time. It was the time of Ablganz and Semper ideam standing in Celle as well. All three of them had been born in East Prussia at the main stud and survived the trek to the West. Exellent show jumper blood!!

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

Perfect Pony
Apr. 28, 2004, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maren:
@ Porcelain Pony,

yes, I do remember you!
And whatever "Bay Area" specifies, I'm almost half way through ending up in your "neighborhood" this year....would be nice to meet, if it really works out.

http://www.trakehners-international.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am just north east of San Francisco. Hope you make it over!

"Dan the Man" (http://community.webshots.com/user/kalitude)

Pol
Apr. 28, 2004, 09:27 AM
Mary in Area 1: THANK YOU! I was verrry confused there for a minute http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Robby Johnson
Apr. 28, 2004, 09:42 AM
Maren, like you I agree that the common ancestor would be MORE of a reason to breed than not!

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

ideayoda
Apr. 28, 2004, 10:53 AM
Line breeding is commonally done, and brings out the best of the elements of that horse. It would be a reason to breed, not one not to do so.

I.D.E.A. yoda

Mary in Area 1
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:08 AM
Well, maybe the Pingrees don't LIKE Windfall. I mean, it's THEIR choice. Perhaps they wish to breed her to a full TB. Or maybe they just don't like Darren. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo

wanderlust
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
Well, maybe the Pingrees don't LIKE Windfall. I mean, it's THEIR choice. Perhaps they wish to breed her to a full TB. Or maybe they just don't like Darren. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummm... is Mr. Pingree's first name Tim? Because if not, it would appear that based on Trakeventer's post that Dr. Holekamp (aka Tim) was the one who didn't like Bally Mar's pedigree.

On Second Thought
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
Or maybe they just don't like Darren. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That didn't take long

--The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.

Pixie Dust
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:22 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

Janet
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:28 AM
Like Robby, I am confused.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TrakEventer:
Yes, Ballymar did win the breeding to Windfall, however, due to pedigree issues, it won't be happening... Tim researched her pedigree and apparently her grandsire is a Trakehner improvement sire, and his grandsire, that would be her great great grandsire, is Goldregen,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This implies to me that Goldregen is a stallion <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> who is also Windfall's sire's dam.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But this imples that Goldregen is a mare.

Huh?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

SwizzleStick
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:46 AM
"...Or maybe they just don't like Darren."

Oh Mary, you couldn't resist it could you? Fasten your seatbelts, folks!

SwizzleStick

creynolds
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:49 AM
Windfall is a purebred Trakehner not registered as an anglo. His dam Wundermadel was a German TB approved in the Trakehner stud book. She was also an eventing star as well as his sire Habicht a purebred Trak. I have a 2003 Windfall filly who is the image of her dad along with his fearless disposition

Janet
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:50 AM
It seems to me you could like Windfall without liking Darren. He isn't contributing anything to the breeding, or even profiting from it AFAIK.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Perfect Pony
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SwizzleStick:
"...Or maybe they just don't like Darren."

Oh Mary, you couldn't resist it could you? Fasten your seatbelts, folks!

SwizzleStick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is Darren an Ass? If so, that would explain why I find him so much more attractive than that Will guy, LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Dan the Man" (http://community.webshots.com/user/kalitude)

TwinGates
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:59 AM
I'm with Maren & Robby and certainly hope this breeding is re-considered. Line breeding in 3rd generations is NOT uncommon, and Goldregen would certainly not be a stallion I'd be fearful of reinforcing.

free
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:59 AM
Windfall has always reminded me of a Shagya...but I believe that he should be called a TB. Unless I am mistaken, he has more TB blood than any other.

Also I have heard that the selectors will not send a stallion to Athens no matter how good.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

TrakEventer
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:08 PM
OK, how about I just post the email I received from Tim Holekamp, Windfall's owner, about the breeding... as I, myself, am quite confused...

it reads:
"We donated a free breeding to Windfall for the top-placing mare in either division of four star. Of about ninety, only two were mares (and one stallion)! One mare retired on course, leaving only the other one, an aged mare of great repute, Karen O'Connor's Bally Mar, whom everyone told me is a thoroughbred. But NOOOOOOOO. The pedigree finally found its ways into my hands. Sire was a Hannoverian......but not any old Hannoverian, one with a Trakehner father, who happened to have a grandfather named GOLDREGEN!!!!!!!! (for those who are not quite plugged in fully, that is Windfall's daddy's mother's sire too....... "

TrakEventer
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:10 PM
The selectors won't send a stallion to Athens?? Why is that, they'll send a mare, won't they... what's the difference?? OK, I know the obvious, but he's competed all over without "stallion issues", if I'm not mistaken...

free
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:20 PM
TrakEventer...I asked the very same question and all everyone would say is that it would be too much trouble...and other countries sending mares might complain? Maybe if the owners were willing to defray some of the extra costs of keeping him separate??? (I am grasping at straws here.)

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Robby Johnson
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:34 PM
Uhmm, who said anything about selectors not sending a stallion to Athens? If this is the case, someone had better inform both Darren and Dr. Holekamp. They've sure been working hard for that opportunity. I think maybe someone on the bb is misinformed. I'd be willing to bet if, barring soundness and of course assuming a good selection trials performance, "our" Windfall will be eating olive and feta cheese salad and drinking lots of red wine come August!

Ballymar has always been listed as a "TB/Hann" cross. She is, in fact, 3/4 Thoroughbred (by a stallion called Omar who was out of a TB mare). I know this, of course, because Ken Ball at USEF/PHR told me last week. Ken leaves no stone unturned. For a while there they had a different sire (same name "Omar") listed, but as it turns out she is, indeed, 3/4 TB.

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

TrakEventer
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:49 PM
I pulled out old programs, and Bally Mar indeed has always been listed as a Hann/TB, but I was just posting Dr Holekamp's exact words since I got myself in such a befuddlement trying to regurgitate the details http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Anyway, I can't imagine the selectors not sending a stallion since Darren and Tim both set out in 2001 with the primary goal of finding a TK stallion to represent the states in Athens 2004 and to improve the TK breed on this side of the pond...

Robby Johnson
Apr. 28, 2004, 01:01 PM
In addition to the fact that the horse just won the Rolex Short Format "for horses qualified to represent their countries in this summer's Athens Olympics."

I "feel you" TrakEventer! (As they say now!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

Janet
Apr. 28, 2004, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "for horses qualified to represent their countries in this summer's Athens Olympics." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is a BIG jump between "qualified for" and "has a snowball's chance in hell of bein selected for".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Robby Johnson
Apr. 28, 2004, 02:16 PM
Perhaps, but I'd still think that if the "selectors" didn't want to send a stallion, they'd have broken that news to Camp Windfall months/years ago.

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

Janet
Apr. 28, 2004, 02:35 PM
I would certainly HOPE SO.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Janeway
Apr. 28, 2004, 02:56 PM
Plus it seems odd when so many of the showjumpers and dressage horses in the Olympics are stallions. Don't see how one more would make a difference.

The US has sent stallions before (Abdullah coming to mind)

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

free
Apr. 28, 2004, 03:15 PM
Just repeating what I heard...unbelieveable as it sounds...and I won't name names, but they have been in the upper echelons of Eventing for many years...so, far be it for a newbie such as me to argue with them.

It was interesting that Jimmy Wofford didn't choose Windfall in his predictions for the five member team. Of course, that was before Rolex. We shall see!

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

denny
Apr. 28, 2004, 03:35 PM
The fact that he`s a stallion shouldn`t have any bearing on his chances of selection, unless there`s some new importation rule I`ve never heard of. In my mind, neither horse nor rider have much left to prove. What more should they have to do to show how good they are, jump-rope while riding upside down on a unicycle???

flutie
Apr. 28, 2004, 04:00 PM
Did Darren use a mikmar on Windfall? I forgot to notice his bit. He looked awfully good on cross country and was one of the few who looked as good coming home as he did going out.

Heather
Apr. 28, 2004, 05:45 PM
That's the only thing i can come up with--importation rules for the country of Greece, OR the state of the games seems so slipshod right now perhaps there would be concerns about the quality of the stables and the ability of the organizing committee (Greek) to safely house a stallion?

Unless (and I'm not starting a rumor here, just asking or speculating) Windfall has one of those diseases that prevents them into a country (remember when the jumper stallion, Oh Star couldn't go to, what was it, the World Cup? Something in Europe.)

I agree, though. Like I said, he's not my favortie horse, but I feel like he has absolutely proven he can do the job and deserves a fair shot at selection.

Carol Ames
Apr. 28, 2004, 06:02 PM
free, for what it'sworth Jimmy hasNEVER been in favorof any warmblood as an event horse,since, he claims they cannot make the time, this,despite the wonderful mare who, was second in Barcelona, and Volturno; the Trakehners tend to have some TB in them, enough to make them more refined, but not so much that they have bad feet , or, won't do dressage., Mywonderful Merry Meeting, had part /trak papers, though her sires' sire, Valentin was /TB, and, an awesome crosscountry horse, and, of course, the late lamented Caeser was bold, and VERY fast, but,then, we all know, know that,Bruce, would settle for nothing less!

breeder of Mercury!

remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives.

Sammy's Mom
Apr. 28, 2004, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flutie:
Did Darren use a mikmar on Windfall? I forgot to notice his bit. He looked awfully good on cross country and was one of the few who looked as good coming home as he did going out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He did not use a Mikmar on XC. I shuttled his crew back at the end and the bridle was in a tub. The bit was a snaffle type with rollers on it. I am not sure what it is called. Don't know what he used in stadium. Maybe someone else saw.

There is no spoon--Neo

Painted Wings
Apr. 28, 2004, 07:09 PM
It looks like a plain eggbutt snaffle to me. Here he is warming up for stadium.

-Painted Wings

Set youself apart from the crowd, ride a paint horse, you're sure to be spotted

Blugal
Apr. 28, 2004, 08:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carol Ames:
the Trakehners tend to have some TB in them, enough to make them more refined, but not so much that they have bad feet , or, won't do dressage., <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, just stepping in here to counter-defend the TBs. They do not all have bad feet and a good number of them can do dressage. (In fact, looking at Pippa Funnel's string for Badminton today, all but one are pure TB.)

Not aimed specifically at carol Ames here, but let's try to avoid stereotypes about any breeds here! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Blugal

"Actually, I could never count strides, so I took up eventing." -monstrpony

TrakEventer
Apr. 29, 2004, 09:51 AM
Hi all... I need to clarify some incorrect information that I posted earlier... and to apologize to a fabulous stallion owner, who is phenomenally knowledgeable and wholeheartedly supports the betterment, advancement, and awareness of American bred sporthorses, that I misrepresented and betrayed on this board.

Firstly, Dr Holekamp did not suggest that Ballymar would not be bred to Windfall; he was merely clarifying that, though she has been praised an an ambassador for the American TB, Ballymar is really an American-bred sporthorse... called part Hanoverian, but very much part Trakehner in that she carries TK blood on both halves of her "Hanoverian" side in Hessenstein and Lateran.

Furthermore, I did not mean to suggest that Dr Holekamp was not advocating the breeding of these two fabulous event horses because of the similarities in their pedigrees as he too cites the Goldregen distant relationship as a positive feature in the cross.

It was my youthful exuberance and pedigree ignorance that founded my tremendously erroneous posts, and I apologize sincerely to all members of the Windfall camp and those of you on this board that I misled.

DQ Eventer
Apr. 29, 2004, 11:19 AM
Being a wee bit hard on yourself Trak Eventer! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The only way Holekamp could personally better the American bred sporthorses would be to breed every American mare to Windfall - That just won't happen with his limited bookings and "high dollar" fee. I especially believe that he offered the free breeding to eliminate some of his competition for 11 months!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

RacetrackReject
Apr. 29, 2004, 11:50 AM
I think Windfall went in a gag on XC, didn't he? I can't really tell from the pics, but here are a few of him, including one from after XC.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/138428590/138429259ZUMCOk

http://community.webshots.com/photo/138428590/138429773cPbLiO

http://community.webshots.com/photo/138428590/138431255KrzSub

http://community.webshots.com/photo/138428590/138431449jPqXXX

"Faith is the our hardest thing to find-- true faith rather than false faith. The horse between your legs is closer to your body than your own head is, so he feels your loss of faith before you realize it yourself"- Jane Smiley

tom
Apr. 29, 2004, 12:26 PM
I am not interested in getting into an argument with anyone, but I do believe that some on this and other threads are giving Windfall and Tim Holekamp a very hard time, which they do not deserve. Idle speculation about the horse may be fun for some, but this is how false rumors start. And the sniping at the owner is uncalled for and very unfortunate.

All I can say is that I wish Windfall were eventing for Ireland and that Morningside Stud owned him!

Tom Reed
Morningside Stud
http://www.morningside-stud.com

DQ Eventer
Apr. 29, 2004, 12:41 PM
Easy now Tom http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I love Windfall... If I didn't, I wouldn't have posters of him on my wall!! And I wouldn't be here checking out the Windfall and Darren Topic during work when I have a proposal to go out today http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Who cares what kind of bit he rides in, or how much his stud fee is, or how Darren rides him, blah, blah, blah. Plain and simple, he is a fantastic horse with a dedicated rider and owner, with numerous fans... end of story. We are just getting fired up because we WANT him to go to Athens!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Pol
Apr. 29, 2004, 12:41 PM
TRAKEVENTER! WELL SAID. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

tom
Apr. 29, 2004, 12:49 PM
DQ Eventer -- I understand where you are coming from. Thanks.

If anyone out there doubts Windfall's potential as a sire, I'd like to let you know that based on my application the Irish Horse Board has approved Windfall as a sire. This means that we can import his semen and register his foals in the main studbook. As many of you know, the Irish Horse Register has been ranked by the WBFSH as the #1 eventing studbook for a good few years now. And we want Windfall progeny here!

Tom Reed
Morningside Stud
http://www.morningside-stud.com

oskaar
Apr. 29, 2004, 01:12 PM
Blugal--Pippa's TBs are most likely English TBs, which are a little different, and usually avoid the typical stereotypes applied to American TBs.

I too find it interesting that the Darren/Windfall partnership continues to be consistant, yet never quite achieves recognition for it. Gotta love politics.

There are fools, damn fools, and those who remount in a steeplechase.
- Bill Whitbread

Robby Johnson
Apr. 29, 2004, 01:34 PM
Well, just to be correct, Sally O'Connor and the organizers/riders still refer to many Irish/English crossbred horses as "Irish/English Thoroughbreds." Until we can educate the high levels of what they're actually sitting on, then why do we even bother?

Also, oskaar, you'll find it interesting to know that two of Pippa's horses - Jurassic Rising and Supreme Rock - were produced by North American sires who were either bred in the US or direct-get of US-bred stallions. (Primitive Rising and Edmund Burke, respectively.)

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

free
Apr. 29, 2004, 01:57 PM
Supposedly a daughter of one of my TB mares was sold and shipped to NZ to be used for breeding (perhaps to one of the U.S. bred colts that they have also bought). And that progeny may someday return here as a NZ sporthorse and will be held in higher regard than anything her mother produces here just because they are imported from NZ.

And athough I do admire the way that they train and condition SOME of their horses...we could begin to duplicate it over here.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

DQ Eventer
Apr. 29, 2004, 01:58 PM
Hey Robby! Did it feel like a New York Parade with lots of bells and whistles, ticker tape, etc. when you made your 8000 post?!?! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

GotSpots
Apr. 29, 2004, 03:32 PM
Tom and TrakEventer -- I don't read this topic as having had folks say improper things about Windfall or his owner. I do see some people saying that perhaps they would not choose to breed to Windfall because of the high stud fee (which, may in fact be a fair price, given the horse's unquestionable successes, but may not be possible for everyone) or say that they prefer to breed for a pure TB for their eventers. Personal choice, and certainly not a negative reflection on the horse or the owner. To the extent that folks advocating for the modified CCI try to use Windfall to propone the short-format, I suspect that many of us who prefer the nature of the sport to stay in the long format might object, but I've not seen much of that here. And, although in the past Darren has certainly been the subject of some controversy, be it from comments made to the press or from other incidents, I don't see anyone saying that he should be begrudged his obvious successes with this horse or with others.

Sorry, I just don't see it.

tom
Apr. 29, 2004, 03:57 PM
GotSpots, I'm not going to rehash quotes from this and other recent threads that I found troublesome -- and still find troublesome after re-reading some of them now. I said my peace; let's leave it at that.

Tom Reed
Morningside Stud
http://www.morningside-stud.com

Odie222
Apr. 29, 2004, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by texasgirl29:
I think Windfall went in a gag on XC, didn't he?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct. Darren commonly rides Windfall xc in a eggbutt cherry roller gag.

And since I'm here, I'll weight in on the topic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Darren has worked very hard to get where he is and he and Windfall deserve much credit. I think both have proved that dispite a lot of un-well wishing (is that a real term, lol) they have what it takes, and I think they will be strong representitives for out country at the summer games.

That said, however, I have to agree with whoever posted that Windfall doesn't do it for them. I really don't know why he doesn't do it for me either, he is a gorgous horse, an exceptional competitor, and in general impressive, but I don't know why I can't get myself to really like him? Its not the fact that he's a warmblood, or even a trak. for that matter, since I am absolutely in love with my friend's trak. Maybe it relates to my whole theory on picking race horses. I always pick the underdogs, the not the best bred horses, maybe the ones the have some "defect" that people don't like. Based on that, I guess I'll never like Windfall, since he is so not any of those things http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Boss Hoss
Apr. 29, 2004, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Robby Dear, I don't think they think those are all that confusing. But what do I know... it's all relative.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that the pun is "they are all relatives" ?

AWS Elite Stallion - www.Manahawk.com (http://www.manahawk.com) : Cool Breeze Farm

subk
Apr. 29, 2004, 05:54 PM
I only saw one Mikmar all weekend; it was in stadium and I think it was on a Brit.

Perfect Pony
Apr. 29, 2004, 05:59 PM
Wow, what a soap opera. My only hope in life is that someday I will have that anglo-arab or trak-arab mare I have been dreaming about so I can have a Windfall baby of my own someday. Or maybe just buy a weanling? Anyone know how much his offspring are fetching? Does it more than make up for the 3k stud fee?

"Dan the Man" (http://community.webshots.com/user/kalitude)

Sammy's Mom
Apr. 29, 2004, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are correct. Darren commonly rides Windfall xc in a eggbutt cherry roller gag.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I looked up a picture of this and that is the bit I saw on his bridle. I thought it was pretty cool looking.

There is no spoon--Neo

Painted Wings
Apr. 29, 2004, 06:14 PM
I have known Holekamps for probably 20 years and I have known Darren for over six years. I don't see him on a daily basis but I have taken several clinics with him. I've seen him work with older adults, pony clubbers, and everything else from pre beginner Novice riders to Intermediate level. He has yet to lose his temper, he is very inciteful in what he says and he treats everyone the same. I have a home raised paint that is obviously not going to be the next olympic star but he respects and understands my goals as an adult amateur with a full time professional job. He doesn't tell me I need a better horse or that I need to ride more. He works with what I have and what my goals and constraints are. I wish all clinicians were like that.

That being said, I have seen no rider that works harder. He is always extremely careful about what he eats, works out, jogs, rides many horses a day. On top of that he is one of the best riders at managing horse owners and sponsors.

I personally find it interesting to compare him to other riders who are also very talented, popular, and work hard, but perhaps don't have the business sense to do what it takes to reach the highest level by pursuing sponsors and cultivating horse owners.

I can't imagine when he sleeps.

Watching Rolex, I'm glad I'm not on the selection committee. There are so many really good horse/rider combinations out there I think it will be very difficult to decide. Given the short format and winning the modified division, I don't see how the selectors could leave Windfall home unless a leg falls off.

-Painted Wings

Set youself apart from the crowd, ride a paint horse, you're sure to be spotted

oskaar
Apr. 29, 2004, 06:16 PM
Really Robby? That's pretty cool. I've always found found most people outside the US to be anti-American TBs (yes, this may be a stereotype, but it's also a bias based on people I've met). Good to know. And, as you can tell, I am totally ignorant about breeding. What do I know?

Did you ever find your jeans?

There are fools, damn fools, and those who remount in a steeplechase.
- Bill Whitbread

Robby Johnson
Apr. 30, 2004, 03:41 AM
I cannot find my jeans and it's driving me buggery! Where are they, dammit? I have scoured the horse trailer, the house, we did the 10-point check before exiting the hotel room. It's madness.

Ooh, wait. Are they hanging up in my trailer? That would be far to sensible but I must check there today.

xoxo

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

oskaar
Apr. 30, 2004, 05:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Painted Wings:
That being said, I have seen no rider that works harder. He is always extremely careful about what he eats, works out, jogs, rides many horses a day. On top of that he is one of the best riders at managing horse owners and sponsors.

I personally find it interesting to compare him to other riders who are also very talented, popular, and work hard, but perhaps don't have the business sense to do what it takes to reach the highest level by pursuing sponsors and cultivating horse owners.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You brought up a very good point. I feel like roiders are almost frowned upon for having that good business sense and marketing themselves and their horses. When the O'Connors first developed their "team" status and tried to market that, I feel like their popularity status took a dive, maybe not among their fans, but among other upper level riders. I don't know if it's resent at not being able to do the same, or some of innate feeling that in the old days, riders were just riders, and they didn't need publicity. Couldn't say.

There are fools, damn fools, and those who remount in a steeplechase.
- Bill Whitbread

Heather
Apr. 30, 2004, 06:12 AM
I find the last post by oskaar an interesting one, and one that I basically agree with.

She asks why, and here is my answer, which is, IMHO, of course.

I have a friend. A best friend. She is as good or better of rider, in talent or expereince, than half of the riders at Rolex over the weekend. And she rode at Rolex many years ago at the age of 22 and 23. She was on short lists and long lists and had articles written about her. But then, as things happen, the horses got old, and got lame, and now I guarantee that depsite her winning some awards that have not been duplicatd since by an American, most of you have never heard of her.

Why? Because she's not a schmoozer. She's shy, and quiet, and isn't chatty. She couldn't sell a glass of water to a man in the Sahara.

So when i look at her, and see others achieving what she should be, based on her amazing talent. I feel a bit bitter. It shouldn't be that personality is worth more than ability (not saying ANYONE mentioned on the thread lacks ability).

Do I realize that this is an incredibly naive perspective? Of course I do--the entire world is run by the cult of personality--why should horseports be any different? But it doesn't make me feel that too often, talent goes overlooked.

And so I get a little bit of eye rolling going on with the prolilferation of Team Hooopty-Hah, and the Mr. Slick speechifying, and the ads and everything else. I understand it's wehre the sport is going. I'll deal. But I can't promise I won't keep rolling my eyes.

As a final note, I would ad that for me, some of the discomfort comes from the notion of marketing the horses. Because to me, at the end of the day, i want everybody in this sport, and in this business to be doing it becasue first and foremost they love horses--not because they have a great makreting plan for squeezing every last dime out of sparky and dobbin. I don't think those two things have to be mutually exclusive, but when the markting gets turned up a bit too high, it can sure feel that way. And, whe that much starts riding on a horse--a faliible and fragile creature, I start fearing shades of the horse killing of the hunter jumper world. After all, it's a better story for marketing to lose Dobbin in a tragic accident, than to losehim because hemade a nice intermediate horse, but isn't going to the Olympics.

paranoid, probably, but I think we need a lot of vigilance on this area.

slp2
Apr. 30, 2004, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Did you ever find your jeans?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He,he. We always say that the sign of a good party is when people ask you weeks later, "Did you ever find your shoes?" This must have been a GREAT party! Sigh, our Rolex "party room" at the Microtel was so tame comparatively! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Perfect Pony
Apr. 30, 2004, 07:10 AM
While I agree with Heather to a certain extent, IMOP it all really boils down to $$ and contacts, and sometimes just being in the right place at the right time.

This has and always will be primarily I rich persons sport. Everyone I have haven known at the top of the game had rich parents or rich friends or married someone that footed the bills, talent being secondary.

Flame me all you want, I've seen it time and time again. I certainly don't begrudge any of them, but it's just the name of the game.

"Dan the Man" (http://community.webshots.com/user/kalitude)

Robby Johnson
Apr. 30, 2004, 07:21 AM
Veuve Cliquot and fresh strawberries do that to a boy, slp2!

Where marketing is concerned, I will just say that finding a balance between a professional and personal identity can be a real challenge. The more one side grows, the smaller the other side gets. It's a universal law/truth.

I would rather have true friends, genuine relationships and personal satisfaction than a lot of public glory. But that's just me.

When an athlete/actor/musician/politician/porn star, etc., seeks recognition for their efforts, there are things that must be relinquished in order to achieve the goal. After all, we don't get something for nothing.

But, to follow-up with another cliche, all that glitters is not gold. I would rather live to be 75 and surrounded by horses and people who love them, and by people that I love and who love me, than the shadows of Glory Days.

At that point, would it have been worth denying intimate friendships with, say, 5-10 people in order to sign autographs for thousands? For me? No. For others? Apparently. I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to pursue their dream.

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

free
Apr. 30, 2004, 07:44 AM
While I bemoan the fact that it certainly appears to be a 'rich man's' sport for the most part...then even more credit must go to the riders who have made it without having 'deep pockets' or the ability to 'schmolz'. I am speaking of Amy Tryon and Holly Hepp to name just two. They both have tremendous talent but have had to work hard to get where they are and I believe that this should be recognized, so that young riders without wealthy parents won't be completely discouraged.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Painted Wings
Apr. 30, 2004, 07:51 AM
The problem (if it can be considered a problem) is that the sport has become so competitive and popular that it now takes more than just being a great rider to get to the very top.

There are many very good, popular riders but that maybe don't spend the time cultivating sponsors and owners. Basically, they just want to ride. I can't blame them for that. Problem is that now it takes more than that. They are very successful but probably won't make the team.

That doesn't mean that riders like the O'Conners and Darren don't love their horses and don't love to ride. But they also recognize that they have to manage the business end of it and promote themselves in this day and age to really be successful.

Just being a great rider on a great horse is not going to be enough in the long run to stay at the top of this sport anymore. Whether we like or not, that's the way it is. The sport has grown.

I remember the first time I went to Rolex 20 years ago there was no problem getting a seat in the stands for stadium. There was no problem getting a close up view at the water complex. Now you need to set someone up at 7AM to save your seats, even for the trot up on Sunday morning. Our sport has grown and continues to grow and we have to take the good with the bad.

-Painted Wings

Set youself apart from the crowd, ride a paint horse, you're sure to be spotted

kt
Apr. 30, 2004, 08:47 AM
I just want to say that this has been an incredibly enlightening topic. There are so many intelligent and interesting people here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***
The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

Fred
Apr. 30, 2004, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oskaar:
Blugal--Pippa's TBs are most likely English TBs, which are a little different, and usually avoid the typical stereotypes applied to American TBs.

There are fools, damn fools, and those who remount in a steeplechase.
- Bill Whitbread <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bang, thump, what's that sound? Just my head banging on my desk.
I'm sorry, but that misconception about Thoroughbreds just drives me crazy.. and yet you hear people say it with utmost certainty...
Thoroughbreds are the most international of creatures.. where they are 'bred' is the country where they are foaled... their ancestry can be English, Irish, French, Italian, or God help us, Canadian or American.. among others...
and Northern Dancer is just one example - colt born in Canada (therefore Cdn bred) by Nearctic, by Nearco (IT) out of Natalma (English) - in the big yearling boom of the '80's many top-priced ND yearlings were bought by English, Irish, and Arabs, and taken to race and then stand in Europe... the epitome of this horse is Nijinsky (also a Cdn bred - a big strapping horse, which most people would describe as "European")...many of them came back to North America.. and so on and so on..
In most of our North American TBs the pedigree is just as international.
My own TBs out there right now : two by an Irish horse,(different Irish horses) (one of whom is by an American horse) one by a French horse, one by a Cdn (out of an English mare), her dam was Argentine, two by an English-bred horse who stood in Ireland before coming to Canada......(he was by an American horse who was by an English horse, whose sire was Italian) and ALL of their babies will be Canadian breds..http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

takes a big gulp of her Earl Grey, and settles back down again...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

www.afineromance.ca (http://www.afineromance.ca)

Carol Ames
Apr. 30, 2004, 05:36 PM
My apologies tothose who were offended by my remarks which, I believe were miunderstood http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif;when my first three day horse, a Tb, the mighty "Lesson plan", aka ,"Merf" ws retired at age 16, having done his first three day at age 14, and, his last at age 16, I purchased three mares for resale,onedutch wb, and the part Trakehner, plus a Grade 2 TB mare, with which to move through Intermediate to,I hoped,advanced. At some point that first year I realized that I had lost NO shoes, and, was no longer receiving lectures from my farrier about keeping horses out of the dew, which, made their feet too soft, and, also, with litle warm up, the two Wbsw were ready for the dressage phase which, they usually won; iloved Merfdearly, it was he who, "put wings on my dreams",however I quickly ecognized that ,with the Wbs certain things were er no longer issues" certainly ,stereotypes are inherently unfair,
however cetain breeds do have physical, and mental,attributes which make it easier for them to meet the demands of certain sports,asin the ability to "round" under a rider, whether in the dressage ring or show jumping ring.As for Traks holding up to the Advancedrequirements; did anyone see the stallion"summersong?", who completed Badminton, and Burghley,and was on theFremnch team for Atlanta?, he was,I believe bred in GB, and caused quite a sensation in the UK the way he "skipped" around the big courses http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif.

breeder of Mercury!

remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives.

[This message was edited by carol Ames on Apr. 30, 2004 at 08:45 PM.]

[This message was edited by carol Ames on Apr. 30, 2004 at 08:51 PM.]

[This message was edited by carol Ames on Apr. 30, 2004 at 08:56 PM.]

Carol Ames
Apr. 30, 2004, 05:36 PM
My apologies tothose who were offended by my remarks which, I believe were miunderstood;when my first three day horse the mighty "Lesson plan", aka ,"Merf" was retired at age 16, having done his first three day at age 14, and, is last at age 16, I purchased three mares for resale,one dutch wb, and the part Trakehner, plus aGrade 2 TB mare, with which to move through Intermediate to,I hoped,advanced. At some point that first year I realized that I had lost NO shoes, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and, was no longer receiving lectures from my farrier about keeping horses out of the dew, which, made their feet too soft, and, also, with little warm up, the two Wbs were ready for the dressage phase which, they usually won; iloved Merf vIdearly, it was he who, "put wings on my dream",however I quickly recognized that ,with the Wbs certain things were no longer" issues" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gifcertainly ,stereotypes are inherently unfair,
however cetain breeds do have physical, and mental,attributes which make it easier for them tomeet the demands tcertain sports,as sin the abiility ro "round" under er a rider, whether in the dressage ring or show jumping ring.As for Traks holding up to the Advanced requirements; did anyone see thestallon"summersong?", who completed Badminton, and Burghley,and was on theFrench team for Atlanta?, he ws,I believe bred in GB, and caused quite a sensation in the UK for the way he "skipped" around the big courses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

breeder of Mercury!

remember to enjoy the moment, and take a momento enjoy!, and give thanks for thesewonderful horses in our lives.

free
May. 4, 2004, 03:37 PM
Carol Ames...as a matter of fact I just today received a video with Summersong in it. The video was of his sire Fleetwater Opposition...but it contained footage of Summersong Eventing. He was probably the best moving/jumping horse that i have ever seen going around an Event course. He did get a little strong for the rider...but WOW...what athleticism!

His dam may have been a Welton horse. Do you know his breeding or how tall that he was? It looked to me that he moved just like his sire. Do you know anything about Fleetwater Opposition?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

alleged
May. 4, 2004, 06:12 PM
Free,

jhodkins just posted a link to her new Fleetwater Opposition colt...contact her.

alleged.
http://community.webshots.com/user/linkr322

free
May. 4, 2004, 06:45 PM
alleged...thank you.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Maren
May. 5, 2004, 03:16 AM
Regarding the genetic background of Fleetwater Opposition, I might be of help.

Both his sire and dam trace back to original Trakehnen lines, and he is as pure a Trakehner as they get. The descending sire line goes through Danube-Isenstein-Hessenstein. This is the exact Hessenstein we discussed in the Belly Mar thread here regarding her suitability to be bred to Windfall as the best placed mare at Rolex.
Hessenstein was by a substantial black stallion called Komet, whose direct sire line has almost died out today, but whose daughters proved to be of exceptional quality and shaped the breed after WWII. Hessenstein was a Celle State Stud stallion for Hanover in the 60s, but despite high breeding numbers, apparently didn't satisfy his owners and left the State Stud. His most prominent son in the 80s was the bay Karwendelstein, whose last remaining get in Germany are competition horses you mostly find in.......yes, eventing.

Opposition's sire's dam was the highly regarded mare Donaulied by the German TB Maigraf xx, a popular refiner of his time. Donaulied's dam Donau came out of an original Trakehnen mare with high % of TB and Arab blood (Donna by Cancara (Master Magpie xx-Nana Sahib x) out of Dongola ox by Jasir ox). Interesting note is that Cancara, Master Magpie xx and Nana Sahib x were true major sires of their time and produced a high number of outstanding steeplechasers and fox hunters in Trakehnen. To top is all, Master Magpie xx was THE most important stallion in the chestnut herd at Trakehnen, the very same herd that later produced the century sire Abglanz.
The Donau line is known in America since it's the same family of Donauwind, who, apart from producing excellent breeding stock and performance horses, is the sire of the world class show jumper Abdullah.

The dam side of Opposition traces back on both sides to these famous "black" herd genes of Trakehnen, the same that you will find in Windfall. The black herd was the most substantial one, mares here had deep bodies, great volume and broad chests, but were very typey on their own. No comparison to the heavy warmbloods in the rest of Germany at that time! These stallions would include Pilger (who was captured by the Russians during WWII and was THE reformator of Russian Sport Horse breeding), Pilgrim and Ararad. The mare line of Opposition finally tops it all off, as it is the Trakehnen line of Corinna by Ararad. This mare was the foundation mare for one of the breed's biggest and best families, the "C" line of the elite stallion Consul, the FEI dressage horse Chardonnay, the show jumper Cornus, the young Celle stallion Connery, the excellent Cadeau and many more, including the two times Olympic show jumper and international Grand Prix winner Almox Prints.

Opposition's very own athleticism and that of his get do not come as a surprise to me. His pedigree is packed with top performance blood and being a Trakehner, it's not a surprise eiher that he found a great match in TB mares. Summersong is just the climax of that, and I too, was one of his biggest fans. He was an amazing horse to watch go xc.

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

Robby Johnson
May. 5, 2004, 04:08 AM
Maren, what a great post! I got goosebumps just reading it!

Robby

Dance and sing get up and do your thing ...

free
May. 5, 2004, 07:40 AM
Maren...Thank you. Do you know if Opposition throws size?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Maren
May. 5, 2004, 08:04 AM
@ Robby and free,

thanks.

I have no idea how size is running in his traits. I think he stands in the 16.1h region, none of the genes here lead to the thought he might NOT reproduce size. YOu better ask somebody with his offspring in the barn, as I usually saw them from a distance, running along http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

free
May. 6, 2004, 08:57 AM
Maren...what percent TB was Summersong's dam and then, in turn, what percent TB was Summersong?

How does Lester Piggot's and Windall's breeding differ from Summersong's. Say, would one have more Dressage ability opposed to x-country abilities?

Thank you.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

Sandy M
May. 6, 2004, 11:26 AM
ah...? "inciteful" would infer that Darren is either (a) something of a rabble-rouser, or (b) perhaps likes to quote people a lot. I think, perhaps, "insightful" was what was meant? ROFLOL. Hate to be the spelling/word use police, but... (Who am I kidding? I love this sort of stuff!)

P.S. I dream of having a Trakhaloosa. Now if I had a nice App mare, preferably a snowcap or few spot, I'd be making a booking to Windfall right this minute... but I have a gelding.

jhodkin
May. 7, 2004, 06:04 AM
Maren - check your PTs

MMC
May. 21, 2004, 04:38 PM
I have just finished reading all this forum - I am Bally-Mar's groom and have been for years... The Pingrees and Darren adore each other... Windfall is a great stallion, Bally-Mar is a great mare... The Pingrees want to breed her to a Throughbreed. She is a 1/2 Hanoverian, which has givin her excellent movement - but the sport now also requires stamina with speed, which breeding to another warmblood will have trouble offering. The Pingrees still have the breeding and will probably use it, but not this year. Darren has done a fantastic job proving this stallion and we will probably see him represent our country this summer!!!

barbaraG
May. 22, 2004, 02:10 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Welcome, MMC. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I love the Mare.. Please give her a Big Hug for me. I know nothing about breeding, but I trust her family will find a good stallion for her. She deserves the Best!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Cheers,
BarbaraG
GWV/ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hhfarm
May. 22, 2004, 04:48 PM
A sidenote, but my mare gave birth to a gorgeous Windfall colt last week... Woohoo!!

Robby Johnson
May. 22, 2004, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MMC:
I have just finished reading all this forum - I am Bally-Mar's groom and have been for years... The Pingrees and Darren adore each other... Windfall is a great stallion, Bally-Mar is a great mare... The Pingrees want to breed her to a Throughbreed. She is a 1/2 Hanoverian, which has givin her excellent movement - but the sport now also requires stamina with speed, which breeding to another warmblood will have trouble offering. The Pingrees still have the breeding and will probably use it, but not this year. Darren has done a fantastic job proving this stallion and we will probably see him represent our country this summer!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're happy to have you posting here. Welcome!

In actuality, the mare is 3/4 TB, 1/4 Hann/Trak/WB. This makes her more TB than WB. Lots of TBs are good movers too.

Robby

JER
May. 22, 2004, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> what percent TB was Summersong's dam and then, in turn, what percent TB was Summersong? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

free, Summersong's dam is Welton Gazelle, an at-least-3/4TB daughter of Welton Gameful and an RIDx mare.

Welton Gazelle is also the dam of Catherston Dazzler, making Dazzler and Summersong actual half-brothers.

Sannois
May. 23, 2004, 10:41 AM
I know I'm WAY late to the Party, But isn't Bally MAr daughter or grand Daughter to Tad Coffins Bally Cor?? I thought Bally Cor was full TB??? Just curious! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

pwynnnorman
May. 24, 2004, 10:50 AM
Me, too, Sannois. Several folks have said she's more TB than WB, but I've missed exactly HOW that is. Who are the TBs in her lines, please?

deltawave
May. 24, 2004, 10:54 AM
The definition of "full thoroughbred" in the eventing world is VERY flexible, LOL! You still see Giltedge and Custom Made and Winsome Adante being referred to as "toroughbred" when although they are MOSTLY TB they're not 100%.

Back in the day there was a difference between Thoroughbred (capital T) and thoroughbred (small T) to indicate the difference between a registered, racehorse type and a "blood horse" that's mostly TB with a bit of something else.

Janet
May. 24, 2004, 11:03 AM
I am pretty sure she is Bally Cor's daughter. And that she was full TB.

Robby Johnson
May. 24, 2004, 11:46 AM
She is actually Bally Cor's grand-daughter, out of a mare out of Bally Cor.

Her sire, Omar, is 1/2 TB. This makes her 3/4 TB.

Robby

pwynnnorman
May. 25, 2004, 02:22 PM
Can anyone put up her full pedigree? I'd love to know what they bred Bally Cor to over the years. I wish someone would write an article about her again. She (Bally Cor) is such a great story!

Robby Johnson
May. 25, 2004, 02:59 PM
pwynn - you could obtain that information from the www.usef.org (http://www.usef.org) Sports Data department and post it here for all to see. CMFrank or KBEquestrian, could you do that for us?

Robby

subk
May. 25, 2004, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
She is actually Bally Cor's grand-daughter, out of a mare out of Bally Cor.

Her sire, Omar, is 1/2 TB. This makes her 3/4 TB.

Robby <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes BUT, aren't many WB TB crosses themselves? I don't know Omar but isn't it quite possible to have something that is a WB but is also a TB cross?

If so she would be a MINIMUM of 3/4 TB possibly more?

A friend of mine bred her anglo/arab (1/2 TB 1/2 arab) mare to a Dutch WB. The resulting filly is a registered DWB even though she is 1/4 TB 1/4 arab and the other half whatever made up the sire.

Robby Johnson
May. 25, 2004, 07:42 PM
Seldom is a WB stallion 1/2 TB. Not that it doesn't happen, but it's not the norm. Mostly the TB influence is going to be a bit farther back in their pedigree and not as prominent an influencer.

I don't know Omar either, and while I may be totally talking out of turn here, I suspect he probably wasn't a licensed Hann. stallion. Maybe I should verify that before I post it!

Yes, she is at least 75% TB. So she's really a Thoroughbred Sporthorse and not a warmblood. We're back to the semantic thing that comes up so often around breeding threads! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Robby

Carol Ames
May. 15, 2009, 12:41 PM
Bally mar is 3/4 TB; Who is she by?:confused: I know she is at least 1/2 , the Bally Cor half:yes:; is she, Bally Cor still alive?

Carol Ames
May. 15, 2009, 01:04 PM
and how are their feet:confused:?American TBs the pedigree is just as international.
My own TBs out there right now : two by an Irish horse,(different Irish horses) (one of whom is by an American horse) one by a French horse, one by a Cdn (out of an English mare), her dam was Argentine, two by an English-bred horse who stood in Ireland before coming to Canada......(he was by an American horse who was by an English horse, whose sire was Italian) and ALL of their babies will be Canadian breds..http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

SaddleFitterVA
May. 15, 2009, 01:25 PM
This thread started 5 years ago in 2004.

It took me a few posts before I checked the date.