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LoveJubal
Dec. 5, 2010, 12:50 AM
Okay all of you truck experts....
I was talking about trucks with an acquaintance the other day. He said that if I was going to buy a diesel F-250 (or a GMC/Chevy 2500) that I might as well go with the F-350 (or a GMC/Chevy 3500) because it would get better gas mileage and it would haul better.

So, what do you all think? Is this even true? I have done no research, so I am open to any and all suggestions.

Thanks :)

blaster
Dec. 5, 2010, 08:19 AM
Since they tend to have the same drive train in 3/4 and one-tons, I am not sure that you'll see much difference in power/gas mileage.

However assuming you buy a dually one-ton, the rig would be more stable and feel more secure. But then you have the added joy of buying 50% more tires too. Not sure what your trailer is, so you may not warrant a dually.

jr
Dec. 5, 2010, 08:29 AM
250 and 350 are just about the same truck. Same engine, chassis, etc. etc. Difference is in the suspension in the bed -- on the 350 there is a heavier bed suspension that allows you to put more weight in the bed. If you have a big, heavy gooseneck than a 350 is a better option. If you have a mid size trailer you may like the 250 better. Often (not always) the 350s set up for hauling have the dually wheels which are a pain in general driving if you don't need them.

I had a 350 and switched to a 250 and love it. I have a 3 horse xtra long gooseneck trailer. Packed with horses and equipment, I get 13-15 mpg and truck alone on the highway I get 20-22. It's a diesel.

Trakehner
Dec. 5, 2010, 08:46 AM
I prefer a 350 for towing goosenecks...lots more stability.

As far as tire cost...well, there are two more tires. The additional tires has one great benefit...one of your rear tires goes flat you can still keep going up the road until you get home or reach a place where you're not dealing with a flat on the side of the highway. This safety is a great bonus.

I don't find a big difference chugging up the road with a dually. can be a bit tighter parking sometimes. Remember, you can get a 350 with single tires behind, dually is an option.

IFG
Dec. 5, 2010, 10:38 AM
In some states, e.g., MA, you have to register and insure a dually as a commercial vehicle. It ups the cost considerably.

CatOnLap
Dec. 5, 2010, 10:53 AM
I have actually owned all three models over the last 20 years and kept each one for a good long time, having owned all 3 at the same time for about a year. Now the F250 and the F150 have gone onto to new owners.

I much much much prefer the F350 Dually to the other two, for my purposes which are:

hauling a 3 horse gooseneck
hauling a flat deck BP for taking the tractor or hay around
slogging through snow or ice or mud conditions
fuel economy

The F350 that I got is more economical to run and gets better MPG than either the F250 or the F150 doing the same job. Firstly, the F150 was vastly underpowered, and hauling the goosneck would be impossible, but hauling a lighter weight 2 horse BP, it used to get about 13-15 mpg with a gas engine ( 5 liter) and about 15-18 in town with no trailer. The F250 used to get about 10 mpg pulling the same trailer and also had a larger gas engine ( 5.4 l). It was definitely a big pig on fuel, even in town it never got better than about 12-15 mpg. Also, it drove about the same as the F150 although it was a 4WD and sat taller, so it felt the wind more in crosswind situations and was less stable in snow and ice until you put weight in the bed.

The F350 has the smaller turbo deisel and it gets about 16 mpg pulling the bigger trailer, plus about 18 mpg in town. it has a fancy little gage that tells me exactly what its consuming too, which I like. While it sits tall, the dually gives it extra stability and it feels the same driving whether hauling or not. The other two trucks tended to get pushed around by the trailer a bit.

Tires are not a huge concern- I pulled the stock tires off the F350 and replaced them with Michelin truck tires at a cost under $1200, even here in canuckistan, and they handle way better than the stock tires, plus they are rated to last longer. In snow or ice, the bigger truck just feels safer and will crawl straight up the side of a building like spiderman.

If you can afford it, get the F350 turbo deisel 4WD dually. Except if you have to use it as a daily driver, because the thing is darn near impossible to park in a town.

If you are pulling on pavement only and don't need 4WD or dually, you might want to consider the F350 dual wheel drive and single axle ( not the dually) because they sit lower and look sportier. My friend has one and its one hot looking sport truck especially hooked up to her LQ GN 3H.

cssutton
Dec. 5, 2010, 12:16 PM
I have actually owned all three models over the last 20 years and kept each one for a good long time, having owned all 3 at the same time for about a year. Now the F250 and the F150 have gone onto to new owners.

I much much much prefer the F350 Dually to the other two, for my purposes which are:

hauling a 3 horse gooseneck
hauling a flat deck BP for taking the tractor or hay around
slogging through snow or ice or mud conditions
fuel economy

The F350 that I got is more economical to run and gets better MPG than either the F250 or the F150 doing the same job. Firstly, the F150 was vastly underpowered, and hauling the goosneck would be impossible, but hauling a lighter weight 2 horse BP, it used to get about 13-15 mpg with a gas engine ( 5 liter) and about 15-18 in town with no trailer. The F250 used to get about 10 mpg pulling the same trailer and also had a larger gas engine ( 5.4 l). It was definitely a big pig on fuel, even in town it never got better than about 12-15 mpg. Also, it drove about the same as the F150 although it was a 4WD and sat taller, so it felt the wind more in crosswind situations and was less stable in snow and ice until you put weight in the bed.

The F350 has the smaller turbo deisel and it gets about 16 mpg pulling the bigger trailer, plus about 18 mpg in town. it has a fancy little gage that tells me exactly what its consuming too, which I like. While it sits tall, the dually gives it extra stability and it feels the same driving whether hauling or not. The other two trucks tended to get pushed around by the trailer a bit.

Tires are not a huge concern- I pulled the stock tires off the F350 and replaced them with Michelin truck tires at a cost under $1200, even here in canuckistan, and they handle way better than the stock tires, plus they are rated to last longer. In snow or ice, the bigger truck just feels safer and will crawl straight up the side of a building like spiderman.

If you can afford it, get the F350 turbo deisel 4WD dually. Except if you have to use it as a daily driver, because the thing is darn near impossible to park in a town.

If you are pulling on pavement only and don't need 4WD or dually, you might want to consider the F350 dual wheel drive and single axle ( not the dually) because they sit lower and look sportier. My friend has one and its one hot looking sport truck especially hooked up to her LQ GN 3H.


Never buy a F250 or F350 without 4 wheel drive unless you are never going to get it off the pavement.

The diesel engine makes it heavy on the front and even the slightest wet grass will make it spin on any slope regardless of how slight.

I have something like 800,000 miles experience driving three Ford diesels much of it pulling various sized horse trailers.

Stick with the standard rear wheels and get the camper package combined with the towing package.

Campers are top heavy and that package includes a rear sway bar.

Throw the tires away that come on it and get Michelins.

If you are purchasing a new truck, get the 20" wheels with the 3.57 rear end. That will give you the best mileage in the Ford line.

I have never owned a Ford that gave me 18 MPH pulling a trailer.

In Piedmont NC and VA, 12 MPG pulling a 4 horse has been it for me. 10 MPG in the mountains. 14.5 to 15 in town without a trailer.
18 on the 4 lane, no trailer at 65 to 70.

My present truck is a 2008 F350 with 89,000 about to roll up tonight.

The 2011 may give better mileage.

As for snow and ice, I have no experience with a dually on either but there was a thread on here a year or two ago on the same subject and several from MN and MA chimed in and said that a dually was much more difficult to drive on ice and snow and that one who lived in that climate should not buy one.

CSSJR

CatOnLap
Dec. 5, 2010, 02:31 PM
Since you quote my post, I have to think you're directing your answers to me, CSSJR.


Never buy a F250 or F350 without 4 wheel drive unless you are never going to get it off the pavement. Yeah, I believe I said that. But read on, because it might not be as necessary as you think.


The diesel engine makes it heavy on the front and even the slightest wet grass will make it spin on any slope regardless of how slight. Uh, well, that's certainly not my experience, as we do have to park on grass at all our shows, usually on a slight hill, and we have a lot of rain here- so, no I don't find the F350 dually gets stuck or slips at all in these conditions. In fact, my experience is that it hauls better than either of the other two trucks I owned in these conditions. The only time I've needed to use the low range 4WD is on icey hills (my driveway) or in heavy mud, where either of the other two trucks would need to be hauled out by a tractor.


I have something like 800,000 miles experience driving three Ford diesels much of it pulling various sized horse trailers. Yes, you are not the only one who has done a lot of hauling and driving.

I have never owned a Ford that gave me 18 MPH pulling a trailer. Well, to be picky, its MPG, not MPH, and I feel sorry for you if none of your trucks never made 18 MPH- you must drive pretty slow! But what I actually said is my F350 gets 16 MPG hauling the trailer, or 18 mpg in town(without the trailer... and on the highway, empty, it gets about 22.) YMMV, depends on your driving style and the weight of your trailer. There are guys on the Ford Deisel forums that are doing even better. There's a chip available for the F350 deisel that does improve this performance. Then again, my truck is slightly older than yours, so maybe the retooling they did after 2006 did not improve performance.


As for snow and ice, I have no experience with a dually on either As one who has lots of experience hauling in a winter climate (western Canada) in hilly terrain, the larger "footprint" of the dually makes for better handling and better braking than the single axle, especially on ice.

My friend with the dual wheel drive has a husband who is a deisel mechanic (but not for FORD, haha), and had used her previous 4WD so rarely that they special ordered the non-4WD. She hauls in the exact same conditions, even more than I do, and they have not experienced the problems that you imagine without 4WD.

cssutton
Dec. 5, 2010, 05:32 PM
Since you quote my post, I have to think you're directing your answers to me, CSSJR.

Yeah, I believe I said that. But read on, because it might not be as necessary as you think.

Uh, well, that's certainly not my experience, as we do have to park on grass at all our shows, usually on a slight hill, and we have a lot of rain here- so, no I don't find the F350 dually gets stuck or slips at all in these conditions. In fact, my experience is that it hauls better than either of the other two trucks I owned in these conditions. The only time I've needed to use the low range 4WD is on icey hills (my driveway) or in heavy mud, where either of the other two trucks would need to be hauled out by a tractor.

Yes, you are not the only one who has done a lot of hauling and driving.
. Well, to be picky, its MPG, not MPH, and I feel sorry for you if none of your trucks never made 18 MPH- you must drive pretty slow! But what I actually said is my F350 gets 16 MPG hauling the trailer, or 18 mpg in town(without the trailer... and on the highway, empty, it gets about 22.) YMMV, depends on your driving style and the weight of your trailer. There are guys on the Ford Deisel forums that are doing even better. There's a chip available for the F350 deisel that does improve this performance. Then again, my truck is slightly older than yours, so maybe the retooling they did after 2006 did not improve performance.

As one who has lots of experience hauling in a winter climate (western Canada) in hilly terrain, the larger "footprint" of the dually makes for better handling and better braking than the single axle, especially on ice.

My friend with the dual wheel drive has a husband who is a deisel mechanic (but not for FORD, haha), and had used her previous 4WD so rarely that they special ordered the non-4WD. She hauls in the exact same conditions, even more than I do, and they have not experienced the problems that you imagine without 4WD.

I believe a post earlier than yours claimed 18 pulling a trailer.

As for the 16 pulling a trailer.....

I doubt it.

As for those on the internet who claim more, yes anyone can write anything they please. You will not get it with a stock off the floor truck.

As for tuners, they are for real truck nuts. Suggesting one for a person who knows not whether they need a F250, 350 dually or not is not helpful. You can blow an engine if you don't know what you are doing. Just read the many comments on EGT and the need to monitor them carefully.

And another small thing. Using a tuner voids your warranty. If you have a breakdown on the highway and don't have your tuner or if the breakdown is of some nature that does not allow you to revert to factory tune, the dealer will immediately void your warranty...not only for the specific problem that brought your truck to his shop but for any and every thing that happens from that day on.

Tuners also change transmission shift points. OK if you really know what your are doing.....not OK for the ordinary truck owner.

So tuners are not for the ordinary person pulling a horse trailer.

Tonight, I will pull my 4 horse Sundowner 350 miles round trip as I do almost every Sunday night. It will get 12MPG both ways as it always has.

As for the rest, I bow to your obviously superior knowledge.

CSSJR

wildlifer
Dec. 5, 2010, 05:54 PM
Well, maybe css will claim I am smoking crack or something, but oh well. The following are my experiences in diesel-land.

My 250 (7.3L, all stock) gets 16 mpg towing the trailer and around 20 mpg without. I am sorry if this is impossible for some to believe, but I can do the math. I drive it gently. Obviously, it will be lower with more weight, I'm towing about 5-6000 lbs usually.

It's also *gasp* 2WD. I do not need 4x4 where I live, even when I drive on grass, etc. I slip a bit every now and again, as I have crappy tires the dealer put on and once those wear out, I'll throw Michelins on there. But I've parked in plenty of pastures and never got stuck. Just park smart and drive well. :-) If in the future, I do get stuck *shrug* farms have tractors, I'm not worried, I'm not trying to cross Death Valley off-road in the thing.

The 350 and 250 are generally the same truck, only the 350 has a beefier rear, some extra relays, and 350 badges. You can get a single rear wheel on the 350, they're very very common around here so you don't have to have the "breakaway fenders" of the dually (we have small parking lots!).

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 5, 2010, 06:03 PM
350. Not only can you tow just about everything, but I did not realize till I bought one that all men are envious and all women think it is cool. Worth the cost.

(Men are as obsessed about the size of an engine as they are about the caliber of their guns.:lol:)

Mr. Sutton is right, guys are always saying that their 250s are exactly like my 350 except for the struts, etc., that make it able to hold heavier items. I've carried over a ton of cat litter in the bed w/o a problem.

cssutton
Dec. 5, 2010, 07:31 PM
Since you quote my post, I have to think you're directing your answers to me, CSSJR.

Yeah, I believe I said that. But read on, because it might not be as necessary as you think.

Uh, well, that's certainly not my experience, as we do have to park on grass at all our shows, usually on a slight hill, and we have a lot of rain here- so, no I don't find the F350 dually gets stuck or slips at all in these conditions. In fact, my experience is that it hauls better than either of the other two trucks I owned in these conditions. The only time I've needed to use the low range 4WD is on icey hills (my driveway) or in heavy mud, where either of the other two trucks would need to be hauled out by a tractor.

Yes, you are not the only one who has done a lot of hauling and driving.
. Well, to be picky, its MPG, not MPH, and I feel sorry for you if none of your trucks never made 18 MPH- you must drive pretty slow! But what I actually said is my F350 gets 16 MPG hauling the trailer, or 18 mpg in town(without the trailer... and on the highway, empty, it gets about 22.) YMMV, depends on your driving style and the weight of your trailer. There are guys on the Ford Deisel forums that are doing even better. There's a chip available for the F350 deisel that does improve this performance. Then again, my truck is slightly older than yours, so maybe the retooling they did after 2006 did not improve performance.

As one who has lots of experience hauling in a winter climate (western Canada) in hilly terrain, the larger "footprint" of the dually makes for better handling and better braking than the single axle, especially on ice.

My friend with the dual wheel drive has a husband who is a deisel mechanic (but not for FORD, haha), and had used her previous 4WD so rarely that they special ordered the non-4WD. She hauls in the exact same conditions, even more than I do, and they have not experienced the problems that you imagine without 4WD.

You might want to check this link:

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=107163&page=2

This is a board for professional snow plow operators.

Several posts down is one by a truck dealer who very plainly explains the difference between duallys and SRW.

If one purchases the camper package, the stability problem is revolved if the truck is equipped with a top of the line tire kept inflated to 80 PSI.

Anyone who purchases a diesel without 4x4 is not knowledgeable.

CSSJR

cssutton
Dec. 5, 2010, 07:45 PM
Well, maybe css will claim I am smoking crack or something, but oh well. The following are my experiences in diesel-land.

My 250 (7.3L, all stock) gets 16 mpg towing the trailer and around 20 mpg without. I am sorry if this is impossible for some to believe, but I can do the math. I drive it gently. Obviously, it will be lower with more weight, I'm towing about 5-6000 lbs usually.

It's also *gasp* 2WD. I do not need 4x4 where I live, even when I drive on grass, etc. I slip a bit every now and again, as I have crappy tires the dealer put on and once those wear out, I'll throw Michelins on there. But I've parked in plenty of pastures and never got stuck. Just park smart and drive well. :-) If in the future, I do get stuck *shrug* farms have tractors, I'm not worried, I'm not trying to cross Death Valley off-road in the thing.

The 350 and 250 are generally the same truck, only the 350 has a beefier rear, some extra relays, and 350 badges. You can get a single rear wheel on the 350, they're very very common around here so you don't have to have the "breakaway fenders" of the dually (we have small parking lots!).

I drove a 1999 7.3, my second 7.3, 357,000 miles and never saw 16 MPG pulling a trailer. I got 17 to 18 on the interstates at 65 - 70 MPH.

Straight drive, 6 gears, 3.57 rear end.

AS for 4 x 4, it is a very bad mistake to purchase a diesel without 4x4.

I don't really care to spend a lot of time looking for some farmer to bring his tractor to move me to a better place.

The first thing a buyer of a used truck looks for is whether it is a 4x4. You will get your money back at that point.

CSSJR

jr
Dec. 5, 2010, 07:58 PM
I've had 2 and 4 wheel drives. Depending on where you live, 4x4 is not required, but really is nice to have. I agree that the re-sale is better. That said, if you don't need it, you might be able to get a great deal on the 2-wheel variety.

And I routinely get better mileage than some of the folks here claim is possible -- guess I'm crazy too.

Nice thing about these boards is diversity of opinion. Too bad not everyone values the spectrum of opinion as much as they value their own.

mroades
Dec. 5, 2010, 08:30 PM
I drove a 1999 7.3, my second 7.3, 357,000 miles and never saw 16 MPG pulling a trailer. I got 17 to 18 on the interstates at 65 - 70 MPH.

Straight drive, 6 gears, 3.57 rear end.

AS for 4 x 4, it is a very bad mistake to purchase a diesel without 4x4.

I don't really care to spend a lot of time looking for some farmer to bring his tractor to move me to a better place.

The first thing a buyer of a used truck looks for is whether it is a 4x4. You will get your money back at that point.

CSSJR


I take exception to this, my ten year old single rear wheel F-350 diesel 2WD has 386k on it, and I have never gotten stuck. Many, many of those miles were with a 4 horse head to head.

stillknotreel
Dec. 5, 2010, 09:12 PM
Few quick things to point out:

As of 2008 ALL F-350's, both SRW and DRW are required to be registered with commercial plates. A vehicle with a GVW of over 10,000 lbs needs to have commercial plates and needs a DOT inspection. For some people, this is zero issue, but for others it is a hassle. If you're buying a dually to tow a two horse bumper pull, I'd think otherwise. DOT inspections are more costly and are also more in-depth. Not all places that inspect do DOT inspections. I know a friend of mine recently swapped his DRW Dodge 2500 to a SRW (costly and a PITA, honestly).

On the topic of tuners/programmers/modules/chips:

I'm not saying that these are "idiot proof" and everyone who is anyone should go and install them. Let me point this out though.

I own a '01 Dodge 2500. It's a 24v Cummins TD with 165k on the engine. I built this truck as a drag truck with over 850+ horses and close to 1,200 lbs of torque. I had modified this truck up the wazoo to run a quarter mile with rev limiters, computer deletes, aftermarket turbos etc. This truck pulls a two horse bumper pull trailer with extremely low EGT's (under 200) at 20 MPG. I am not scared to let my mother, father, friends, boss, fiance etc. drive this truck. I have no fear that it is a truck just for "people who know diesels".

Any engine that is electronic based, not mechanical (i.e. all newer trucks/cars etc.) you have the ability to install these tuners and shut them off at any time. All trucks that I've owned have had programmers and I've never felt that these trucks were for experienced truck owners and drivers. As long as someone who is knowledgeable about the tuner and the truck installs the chip, and the driver is well versed in what the chip does and how to make it work, they are fine.

I have found that the majority of trucks run better with these tuners. I would not go installing crazy performance parts and doing monster upgrades to create some ridiculously fast, loud, scary truck. I'm saying that if you can install a tuner or programmer that will assist the truck in its job, it is worth while. There are tuners and programmers with monitors/screens that allow the driver to read temps, MPH, MPG, RPM's, EGT's etc. These are all handy with towing.

Some chips you can adjust shift points, axel ratios, turbo sizes etc for that specific vehicle. If you choose not to change these settings that's fine! If you do, it's fairly straight forward and it is all information you can find in the owner's manual or online.

If you're looking for a solid tow vehicle that stays cool, gets good fuel mileage and you're not looking for the super duper thrills of horsepower, torque etc. I would honestly say to look at a Dodge. I had an '03 3500 crew cab and it always got super fuel mileage and never had a problem. Honestly, Cummins is one of the most reliable diesel engines around. How many other companies can say they had a diesel engine on the market for (correct me if I'm wrong) 11 years? That being the 5.9L. Now they have the 6.7L and it's superb.

I'm saying this while I have an Ford as my daily driver. It's an '06 F-250 crew cab SRW. It has the 6.0L TD engine and I hate it. This is the second 6.0L I've owned. 6.0's are not known for their reliability (or their head gaskets! But I digress). I'm actually in the works of doing a Cummins swap into the truck (putting a 5.9L 24v in). The truck has an updated dual coil-over suspension with reservoirs, air bags, Dana 60 4.10 axles etc. It is a dream to tow with but rides like a bronco (amen to a stiff suspension!)

I have nothing against 2X4 trucks. I haven't owned one as for what I do and where I live it isn't in my best interest to own one. A fellow trainer friend of mine has only had 2X4 DRW Fords for years and has loved everyone one of them.

Guilherme
Dec. 5, 2010, 09:55 PM
I live in TN. I've got a 3500HD Duramax, DRW. It's not registered as a commercial vehicle, nor is there any requirement that I do so. We don't have a vehicle inspection program.

And my plates are $24.50/year.* ;)

So legal issues will change from state to state.

Some companies will insure duallies, and some won't. USAA (with whom I've been insured for 40 years) has a 10,000 pound weight limit. Over that you go to the USAA General Agency and they'll shop the risk. My 2008 3500 makes the cut; I don't know if a 2011 (with a much higher weight limit).

Tuners are problematical as GM (and I've heard the other companies) will consider them aftermarket devices that void the warranty. I don't know if they are correct (I'm not aware of any specific litigation on the issue) but I don't have the money either to spend on a tuner or hire a lawyer to sue GM.

I'm also told that the ECM chips on modern trucks "remember" some types of alterations or attempted alterations. Not being a "gear head" I don't know that this is true. I don't really want to find out, either.

I follow the rule of "horses for courses." I also follow the rule of "trucks for courses." I buy sufficient truck to safely the move (start and stop) the trailer I have when it's fully loaded. I also buy the capability to go "in harm's way" because that's what we do a few times a year. If we go out with our local hunt there's at least a 50% chance that we will be parking on wet grass. Many local trail heads have only poorly prepared parking areas. IME a 4WD truck is much better at getting back on the pavement off wet grass than a 2WD truck. So I spend the money (and accept the penalties in weight and milage) to get that capability.

Around here there is also clear prejudice is in favor of 4WD and that will influence resale value.

There are few "school answers" to the original question.

G.

*No personal property tax, either.

stillknotreel
Dec. 5, 2010, 10:12 PM
Just to clarify I am in New England (Massachusetts to be exact) so you'd have to read up on each states inspection rules. Thanks Guilherme!

Tuners, programmers, chips etc. will void a warranty. At this point with my trucks, one is out of warranty and the other has six months left of the warranty. My Ford (in warranty) has a tuner in it. My 2007 F-350 had multiple tuners in it throughout its 27,000 mile life (Thank you deer). I never had an issue with either getting warranty work. As long as you remove the tuners before you go to the dealership you should be fine. Tuners will not leave any kind of "trace" that a tech or mechanic could find. If a vehicle is chipped, where the alteration connects to the vehicles computer directly there are times that it can leave a "trace", but with the right knowledge (you can find it online, it's fairly straightforward), you can remove these traces or footprints as we call them in the programming world. Dont let somebody freak you out with the "footprint" thing, a "footprint" is only a record that the ECM was programmed, this "footprint" does not include a date, time, or detailed record of what the tune was, in fact the same exact "footprint" is left on your ECM wether you tune it with a hypertech, or the dealer re-flashes your factory program. In other words; DON'T STRESS! And don't let people scare you that tuners are the be all end all of your warranty.

Most tuners are simple boxes that you plug into your truck, most do not connect to the computer. There are a few and very high tech programmers that deal directly with the "brain" of your truck, but their expensive and aren't exactly ideal for what you need. The one I use is strictly to shut the computer off in the truck, so it runs off of the throttle computer. A bunch of yada yada if you're not a gear head.

I will say in the 10+ trucks I've owned, with each and every one modified and tuned I have never had an issue with warranty work, ever. Any questions; feel free to ask!

LoveJubal
Dec. 6, 2010, 12:56 AM
Thank you for all your responses!

Just to clarify, I am not interested in a dually. I am only interested in the single rear wheel F-350 (or Chevy 3500). Also, there will be no purchase of a Dodge of any type in my future :)

Anyway, I currently have a 2003 Sundowner BP 2 horse trailer, but I want to get enough truck that I could upgrade my trailer to a larger gooseneck down the road if I wanted to without having to buy another truck.
Maybe that is why he suggested the F-350 - Because of the heavier rear end?!?!

Let me know what you think :)

Palominomustangny
Dec. 6, 2010, 03:04 AM
03 F-350 single wheel works great for my S&H 3 H BP, and has plenty left to upgrade to the gooseneck as i plan in the future too, i prefer it over my silverado mostly because of the whole solid suspension verses chevy independent the only thing about ford is for the 6.0L is a few very common problem IE; egr issues and head bolt issues but i think they got that pretty much taken care of with warranty/recall work, as for the 7.3L great, enginge/power and life. if your thinking new dont know too much about the 6.4 or what ever it is but dont hear too much about it

mvp
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:14 AM
350. Not only can you tow just about everything, but I did not realize till I bought one that all men are envious and all women think it is cool. Worth the cost.

(Men are as obsessed about the size of an engine as they are about the caliber of their guns.:lol:)

Mr. Sutton is right, guys are always saying that their 250s are exactly like my 350 except for the struts, etc., that make it able to hold heavier items. I've carried over a ton of cat litter in the bed w/o a problem.

Well.... the suspension on the F-350 is stiffer. If you are on the wrong road, a lady's Girls will know it before anyone else does. You can add shocks that make a 1 ton feel like a Caddy.

I wouldn't choose a dually unless I absolutely needed it either.

I'd be curious to know what size/weight gooseneck you all thought mandated the step up from a 3/4 ton to a 1 ton. A 2+1? A 4-horse with dressing room?

FWIW, my 2001 F-350 7.3L weighs 9,900#, or so it's birth cerificate says. It squeaks in under the commercial 10,000# limit but is technically illegal to drive on NY/CT's parkways where you need to be under 8,500#. I'm not sure if a modern 3/4 ton does that. I am the occasional scoff law but paranoid about it. People tell me they have never seen a pick-up pulled over on these parkways. This may not be relevant to the MA-based OP.

As to tuners and such. There are different kinds-- some with fixed program settings and some that let you work with a guru programmer to create your own.

By and large, they will enhance performance whether you want spritelier performance or better fuel economy. But the official and wise rule of thumb is:

Install gauges-- usually EGT (exhaust gas temp), tranny temp and turbo pressure-- BEFORE you install a tuner that will change how your engine works. You can get others, making the cab of your truck look like a cockpit of a plane.

These are a good idea even for unmodified turbodiesel trucks as they let you see how various parts of your engine are performing. If you are towing lots of weight in mountains and high altitude, these can help, too. I think they can help with trouble shooting and helping you change how you drive so as not to turn a building problem in to a blown up engine. Do you more expert Diesel Dorks agree?

I too would get a 4WD. To me, if you are going to do so far as to get a big truck that can let you haul your horses to the non-manicured places horses go sometimes, you will impress the men and the ladies by not getting it stuck.

Guilherme
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:21 AM
Thank you for all your responses!

Just to clarify, I am not interested in a dually. I am only interested in the single rear wheel F-350 (or Chevy 3500). Also, there will be no purchase of a Dodge of any type in my future :)

Anyway, I currently have a 2003 Sundowner BP 2 horse trailer, but I want to get enough truck that I could upgrade my trailer to a larger gooseneck down the road if I wanted to without having to buy another truck.
Maybe that is why he suggested the F-350 - Because of the heavier rear end?!?!

Let me know what you think :)

Maybe the thing to do is to delay any truck upgrade until you decide on a trailer upgrade. The truck is generally the Big Ticket Item (at least until you get into LQ trailers). Selecting the trailer first and then something to tow it will allow you to more "cusomize" your purchase to your needs.

I know this smacks of "putting the cart before the horse" but in this case it makes sense!!!!! :lol:

G.

wildlifer
Dec. 6, 2010, 09:26 AM
Anyone who purchases a diesel without 4x4 is not knowledgeable.

CSSJR

ROFLMAO!!! Ohhh, css, making assumptions over the internet is so not a wise thing to do. It just makes you look bad and makes the rest of us :lol::lol:.

Oh, and by the way, many of us who bought a used 7.3L 250 don't give a flying flip about "getting our money back on resale" because we intend to drive it until the engine falls out and would not sell it for any price. So, please remember that not everyone has the identical criteria for vehicle purchase as you do.

Tiki
Dec. 6, 2010, 10:42 AM
Mr. Sutton is right, guys are always saying that their 250s are exactly like my 350 except for the struts, etc., that make it able to hold heavier items. I've carried over a ton of cat litter in the bed w/o a problem. My 250 has had 3600 - 3800 lbs of feed in the back many times, and I can't even tell it's there. That's 1.8 - 1.85 ton to save you doing the math.

stillknotreel
Dec. 6, 2010, 10:53 AM
Just a quick run-down on engines for you. Not sure if you're looking new or used, but you seem to be looking at Fords (Good girl!).

7.3L- Great workhorse engine. They'll last forever, even in the not so great care of not so knowledgeable diesel owners. If you can find one that's been well maintained you're in luck. They are pricey though. I have a 1994 F-250 SRW with 285k on it. Let's just say I went to go pick the thing up in Maine in July, blew the transmission in my 2010 F-350 towing the thing home and the '94 towed my new truck (with less than 10,000 miles on it mind you) all the way home with no issues. She's been a daily driver for my boss for the past 7 months or so and he loves her. It's a fight to get the keys! The transmission issue I have is not uncommon in the late 2009 to early 2010 trucks, FWIW. I don't beat on her.

But to most of us mechanics we consider 7.3's to be "dogs". They're great for low end power (i.e. great for towing), but not as super duper for your average grocery getter. The mileage from 1994-2001 7.3's is a bit on the low side, but from 2002-2003 they're not too shabby. The only reason the 7.3 was replaced was because it could not meet the stricter emissions.

If you can find a nice 7.3 then snag it! I don't know how old or how new you're looking (most likely newer), but some of the OBS (old but sexy, or old body style for those traditionalists out there) Fords from 1994-1998ish are beautiful trucks and extremely desirable. I know I was looking for one and they wanted upwards of $18,000 for a 14 year old truck! Yikes!

6.0L- If you mention Ford and 6.0 I'm sure you'll get looks of disgust. This wasn't Ford's best engine to say the least, but probably one of the prettier body styles (from '05-'07 at least). I've owned two so I can attest to their issues. If you buy one the first thing I'd think about is an EGR delete kit. They're usually around $150 online and it'll be one of the best investments to save your head gaskets. They get clogged with soot causing high coolant temps and simply put will blow up your engine. It can also over-boost your turbo. 2003 6.0's have less of an issue because there EGR's are round. 2004+ 6.0's have square EGR's which are more prone to clogging and failing. That being said, 2003 was the first year of the 6.0L, I do not recommend anyone buying a 2003-04 6.0L due to the "bugs" they had to work out. '05-'07's have proven to be good engines despite some issues.

The 6.0L also introduced VGT (Variable Geometry Turbocharger) which allowed for a faster spooling turbo. Simply put, the faster your turbo can spool, the quicker your truck can get up to speed. They're great turbos! One thing I do recommend is having a "turbo switch" put it. My daughter called it the loud switch. Basically its a switch that can turn the turbo on and off. A fast spooling turbo is great on the highway and when towing, but if you're driving around town and spooling your turbo coming off of every red light you're decreasing your fuel mileage. Around town I put the switch in the ON mode, and cruise around just find. It's slightly slower to get up and go, but nothing major. When I need to get up to speed, or I'm cruising at a higher speed I flip the switch to OFF. TADA! Instant turbo spool. The switch is easily plugged and unplugged for warranty work and it causes no damage to the engine.

Lastly, the TTY head bolts are notorious for going in 6.0's. TTY stands for torque to yield, and are fine in a stock, non-modified, low stress engine. But for many of us who want a little more get up and go, or do a lot of heavy work with our trucks these just won't do. Head bolts are prone to stretching, which will cause them to fail over time. The EGR cooler (which if left stock will run the engine too hot!) can also cause the head bolts to fail, which eventually leads to head gasket failure. Not under warranty, this is a $3-$4K job. Not fun. My recommendation? ARP Head studs or an engine swap if your head gasket goes. It's cheaper to swap a cummins in for $2k than it is to do head gaskets for almost double that.

6.4L- Biggest change would be that Ford utilized twin turbos in this engine. It is quieter and quicker to boot. Twin turbos in any truck will allow the truck to have great low RPM spool as well as great high RPM spool. It was a great concept despite the low fuel mileage these trucks are notorious for having. With some simple tuning though you can be back up into the mid to high teens for MPG's. One of the other reasons for poor fuel mileage is the active regeneration mode (when the engine RPM is increased & fuel is injected into the exhaust system to burn off excess soot in the particulate filter), but again it's something that with a bit of tuning can be adjusted.

You probably have noticed that the 2008-2010 Ford's have those cool vents on the sides by the emblems? Those are there because the engine is so tightly compacted into the engine compartment that that they needed those vents to allow heat to escape and to attempt to allow some cool air in. So it's a tight squeeze in a 6.4 engine compartment.

One thing I do know about them is the late 2009 to early 2010 F-350 models are known for having transmission issues. I've had three different transmissions in my truck since July of 2010. I purchased the truck in September of 2009. It is covered under warranty, but it's been a PITA to say the least.

I honestly haven't worked on many 6.4's as of late, but I own one so I have a bit of knowledge. They're great trucks, super quiet for a diesel. Having the twin turbos is a godsend for towing since it allowed the truck to spool up to speed faster and keeps the RPM's lower, allowing the engine to stay cooler. This is another truck that I'd recommend an EGR delete on as well.

6.7L- I have not worked on one yet, but I've driven one (in hopes of convincing the hubby that I really do need another truck! It's a F-450! It's black! There's air conditioned seats! No go....) Some easy specs I do know though:

This is Ford's first "in-house engine". Since 1982 International has built Ford's engines, but now Ford is stepping it up and attempting their own at creating a winning Power Stroke. The 6.7 brings us back to the single sequential turbo that we saw in the 6.0L. This also might be a reason behind the extremely flat torque curve (i.e. peak torque numbers are seen at 1,600-2,800 RPMs).

They also used reversed intake and exhaust flow. Intake valves located on the outside of the cylinder head, while exhaust exits into the engine valley where the turbocharger is mounted. Increases thermal efficiency of the turbocharger. Yahoo! That simply means helps the engine work better which equals better fuel mileage.

It has it's own piston cooling jets which allow the pistons to stay cooler. This truck is capable of running on bio-diesel as well. They reduced the weight of the engine block by making it out of compacted graphite iron, and also increased the fuel mileage by about 18%

The truck hasn't been around long enough for a real long haul heavy duty test, but I'm sure it'll be up to snuff! I'll be happy to update any of you on anything I hear or work on.

On the fact of installing gauges in your truck. They are very handy I suggest ISSO Pro gauges, which have a variety of mounting options. If you do tune your truck then gauges are a must have. They are quite expensive though, and if your truck is bone stock I don't think it's one of those "I have to have" kind of things. I do recommend tuning trucks both for work and for play. Tuned trucks better utilize fuel mileage and usage and you can better monitor and adjust what is going on in your engine. A lot of hand held tuners have digital screens which allow you to pick and choose different things to monitor, and they can be mounted in the cab of your truck. That is usually cheaper than buying gauges, half of which you don't always need.

One thing I will say, the gauges Ford installs in your instrument panel are not what I consider reliable. With the exception of your speedometer, RPM's, fuel, and boost gauges most things you probably never see move. Most of the oil temp and coolant temp gauges I bet have never budged. This was because people complained to Ford about always watching their gauges wiggle around. The slightest change in temperature and they'd be jumping up and down. People were thinking their engines were running to hot when they were in fact right on the money for where they should be. So Ford decided that if the engine temperatures were within the low and high limits for that engine that the gauges would always set dead center. If the temperatures spiked above that (i.e. 230 degrees for your EGT's) then the gauge would spike upwards. If for some reason it dropped to low it would spike downwards. The downfall to this? You can't tell if your truck is climbing up too hot. The gauge will read when the truck is only beyond the desirable high or low for temperature. If you do buy a handheld programmer or tuner you can have the EGT, oil temperatures etc. read right on the screen, and you'll watch them jump around all day. Annoying to some, but for others like us who want to be on top of any changes, it's a godsend.

I would be happy to recommend any handheld tuners or programmers that I've found useful and reliable. There are a lot to stay away from.

Any questions? Ask away.

Trixie
Dec. 6, 2010, 01:24 PM
We have an F-350 diesel dually... and regrettably, no 4WD. Next truck gets 4WD.

mvp
Dec. 6, 2010, 05:26 PM
Stilknotreel.

That was.... just... beautiful. Never have I read a Ford Diesel Engine History that was as complete and yet comprehensible to the Non-Diesel Dork. I'm misty eyed.

You *deserve* a $65K 6.7L with alotta chrome and cooled seats that make you wonder if you pissed yourself. Why isn't DH getting on that right. now.?

I will bug you with all manner of gauge questions sooner or later.

And do you have equal knowledge/opinions about acid-washing aluminum trailers? If so, you'd be my hero.

There are threads about that here, and I imagine elsewhere on the 'net. Opinion seems to be divided on the "You'll pit it" and "Nah, not if you rinse well and get the pH neutral again."....

Yeah, so.... Do Blue Beacon Truck Washeries get it right?

jr
Dec. 6, 2010, 05:36 PM
I have a 2+1, extra long dressing room plus extra 3 ft in horse area. I use a250 which is more than enough truck for the trailer fully loaded. I'm in one of those states that require different registration for the 350. Using the 250 saves me about $700 a year in fees and tax.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 6, 2010, 05:44 PM
We have an F-350 diesel dually... and regrettably, no 4WD. Next truck gets 4WD.

Always buy a 4WD. You can use it on a farm, in the woods, on dirt roads, and when the interstate is backed up, you can go thru the median and turn back to the next exit.

mvp
Dec. 6, 2010, 06:03 PM
Always buy a 4WD. You can use it on a farm, in the woods, on dirt roads, and when the interstate is backed up, you can go thru the median and turn back to the next exit.

Oh yeah, and for the other poster above talking about 4WD Low. That's a "I WILL move this truck-n-house, so help me God" gear. Regular 4WD is what gets used most of the time. But it will beat the pants off of 2WD.

stillknotreel
Dec. 6, 2010, 06:57 PM
Stilknotreel.

That was.... just... beautiful. Never have I read a Ford Diesel Engine History that was as complete and yet comprehensible to the Non-Diesel Dork. I'm misty eyed.

You *deserve* a $65K 6.7L with alotta chrome and cooled seats that make you wonder if you pissed yourself. Why isn't DH getting on that right. now.?

I will bug you with all manner of gauge questions sooner or later.

And do you have equal knowledge/opinions about acid-washing aluminum trailers? If so, you'd be my hero.

There are threads about that here, and I imagine elsewhere on the 'net. Opinion seems to be divided on the "You'll pit it" and "Nah, not if you rinse well and get the pH neutral again."....

Yeah, so.... Do Blue Beacon Truck Washeries get it right?

I'm honored that someone of your status, mvp, enjoyed what I wrote. :eek: Anytime you want to bug me about gauges feel free.

I am not as knowledgeable in acid washing aluminum trailers, but that being said, I have done it before. Both horse trailers and work trailers. I personally think that if done RIGHT there is no real downside to it. You use the right acids, and have the right knowledge and you'll be a o.k. Most of the people who say "nah, you'll pit the damned thing" have either zero idea of what acid washing is or they royally mucked up their own trailer because they didn't have the right knowledge or bother to read up on "how to".

I personally have never used Blue Beacon, but that being said it does not make them a poor company. I personally have done my own acid washings and I have yet to mess it up. Feed me a cupcake and I'll acid wash anything from a trailer to your cheating spouse!

I can PM you, or start another topic on acid washings if you'd like me to go into some more detail. A friend of mine is a professional fabricator and I'll swing into his work bug him about the topic tomorrow.

Any other questions, ask away!

stillknotreel
Dec. 6, 2010, 07:00 PM
And for what it's worth. I just forwarded this page to the DH who's in the Coast Guard in Jersey. Maybe he'll get the hint, haha. Who wants to pitch in to the SKR wants a 6.7L fund?!

Guilherme
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:28 PM
I am not as knowledgeable in acid washing aluminum trailers, but that being said, I have done it before. Both horse trailers and work trailers. I personally think that if done RIGHT there is no real downside to it. You use the right acids, and have the right knowledge and you'll be a o.k. Most of the people who say "nah, you'll pit the damned thing" have either zero idea of what acid washing is or they royally mucked up their own trailer because they didn't have the right knowledge or bother to read up on "how to".



Many years ago I was the Aircraft Division Officer in a Navy carrier squadron. I'm a graduate of the Corrosion Control Course at NARF Quonset Point (now just a memory :)).

Aluminum, like steel, will oxidize in air. Unlike steel the aluminum oxydation is only a few atoms thick. It forms a barrier, preventing further damage to the metal. The oxydation presents a dull, metalic finish. Removing this oxydized layer permits new oxydation, unless the metal is protected by a coating (paint, for example). In essence, everytime you acid wash a trailer and remove the oxydized coating you are making the metal thinner. This might not be a problem in some applications, but can be a very expensive thing to repair in others.

I have never acid washed any aluminum trailer I've owned because I'm really not interested in slowly disolving it, sort of like a giant sugar cube! :lol:

The hard truth is that acid washing, by its very nature, removes metal. It doesn't matter how careful you are. It's just what acid washing does. ;)

G.

RAyers
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:53 PM
I drove a 1999 7.3, my second 7.3, 357,000 miles and never saw 16 MPG pulling a trailer. I got 17 to 18 on the interstates at 65 - 70 MPH.

Straight drive, 6 gears, 3.57 rear end.

AS for 4 x 4, it is a very bad mistake to purchase a diesel without 4x4.

I don't really care to spend a lot of time looking for some farmer to bring his tractor to move me to a better place.

The first thing a buyer of a used truck looks for is whether it is a 4x4. You will get your money back at that point.

CSSJR



Whatever.

I have a F250 2002 7.3L PSD 2WD, 6 speed, 3.73 single rear wheel. In that model year, my hauling capacity was HIGHER than the F350 4X4 dually with the same specs per Ford.

I have averaged 20 mpg sans trailer for the last 5 years with the only mods being a Stage II air intake and a 4" exhaust (turbo back). With a 3 horse gooseneck and 1 horse I average 16 mpg based on 80,000 miles of hauling across the US. Yes, it drops to 12mpg with fully loaded 6 horse.

As for 4x4, yes, there are times it is nice but I haul in REAL mountains and even at 12,000 feet in a heavy blizzard, I don't need 4 wheel drive. Good snow tires, smart driving is what it is all about, just like the semis.

Reed

monalisa
Dec. 6, 2010, 09:01 PM
I have two trucks, both Dodge Cummings diesels, one is a 250 and the other is a dually 350. Must say that I prefer the 350 for many reasons. But I would not want a dually if that is the only car I had to drive. Way to big to drive around town.

I have gotten much better wear on my tires and brakes on my dually believe it or not, I did not put tires or brakes on my 350 until I hit 50K miles. The 250 does get better gas mileage but if you are worried about gas, don't buy a big truck, buy a small Toyota.

I don't even notice when I have a trailer hooked up to the dually but again, I don't have a big rig, a 4-Star gooseneck trailer. I love my 250 though and have 170K miles on it and keep it on the farm for farm use. It is driven almost every day. Make sure you get 4 wheel drive. Whichever you chose really depends on personal preference at this point.

cssutton
Dec. 6, 2010, 10:12 PM
I take exception to this, my ten year old single rear wheel F-350 diesel 2WD has 386k on it, and I have never gotten stuck. Many, many of those miles were with a 4 horse head to head.

Lots of snow in that part of SC.

And all of that red mud.

And those steep hills.

Makes a lot of difference.

CSSJR

mvp
Dec. 7, 2010, 12:10 AM
A total hi-jack, but you people who like powerful, shiny things of the four-legged or four-wheeled variety may find something interesting in passing.


I'm honored that someone of your status, mvp, enjoyed what I wrote. :eek: Anytime you want to bug me about gauges feel free.

Thanks for the nice compliment, but don't get all hepped up on my status. I'm a novice when it comes to Proper Dieseling.

For instance-- I don't know why my (new to me) 2001 7.3L PSD sounds like she's hissing sometimes in the cold. This is after driving to the freeway and then on it.

I assume her complicated electric brain is making some decision about "metabolism" and here engine temp. To date, I'm an IDI woman, and too proud/not worried about it enough to ask the question on a dedicate Diesel Forum. I haven't seen my trusty diesel mechanic in a while so I haven't asked him yet.

Note that, my friends: Neither truck has asked for anything but fuel lately. I have bragged on my old IDI in the past so I'll spare you another round of praise for her here.

Perhaps we *should* talk about gauges here-- as kind of a PSA. But most will roll their eyes, so I'll keep that techy discussion private unless anyone says they want to get in on that.


Many years ago I was the Aircraft Division Officer in a Navy carrier squadron. I'm a graduate of the Corrosion Control Course at NARF Quonset Point (now just a memory :)).

Aluminum, like steel, will oxidize in air. Unlike steel the aluminum oxydation is only a few atoms thick. It forms a barrier, preventing further damage to the metal. The oxydation presents a dull, metalic finish. Removing this oxydized layer permits new oxydation, unless the metal is protected by a coating (paint, for example). In essence, everytime you acid wash a trailer and remove the oxydized coating you are making the metal thinner. This might not be a problem in some applications, but can be a very expensive thing to repair in others.

I have never acid washed any aluminum trailer I've owned because I'm really not interested in slowly disolving it, sort of like a giant sugar cube! :lol:

The hard truth is that acid washing, by its very nature, removes metal. It doesn't matter how careful you are. It's just what acid washing does. ;)

G.


Yeah, I learned about your atomic theory-type thinking when I first asked about this topic here about a year or 18 months ago. I respected it for a long time..... hence a heinous-looking gray trailer, nicely wrapped in protective but fugly oxidation.

If this were verdigris and copper, I wouldn't be complaining.

But I'm vain. And this trailer is macroscopically thick....a massive sugar cube in comparison with the one lick of acid all around the outside.

So..... even if I'm dissolving a layer of aluminum, does that matter in the grand scheme of things and orders of magnitude?

The pitting and the possibility that the rinse won't get into the horizontal little cracks on the side (extruded aluminum?) does have me worried on both aesthetic and functional grounds.

I do know that I don't know better- from worse acid washing. It's yet one more horse-related research problem to do...

chai
Dec. 7, 2010, 05:45 AM
I have an F350 crew cab with long bed and it is great for anything to do with the farm. It fits everyone in the cab easily and it hauls a gn like a dream. I love the long bed because I often buy hay out of the field and it can fit a ton. I've also hauled round bales in it with no problem.

Where it's not great is in the turning radius and I always have to park about a mile from the grocery store because it just doesn't fit well in a crowded parking lot.

Good luck with your purchase.

Guilherme
Dec. 7, 2010, 08:04 AM
Yeah, I learned about your atomic theory-type thinking when I first asked about this topic here about a year or 18 months ago. I respected it for a long time..... hence a heinous-looking gray trailer, nicely wrapped in protective but fugly oxidation.

If this were verdigris and copper, I wouldn't be complaining.

But I'm vain. And this trailer is macroscopically thick....a massive sugar cube in comparison with the one lick of acid all around the outside.

So..... even if I'm dissolving a layer of aluminum, does that matter in the grand scheme of things and orders of magnitude?

The pitting and the possibility that the rinse won't get into the horizontal little cracks on the side (extruded aluminum?) does have me worried on both aesthetic and functional grounds.

I do know that I don't know better- from worse acid washing. It's yet one more horse-related research problem to do...

Not a theory, but fact! :)

And didn't The Bard warn us of vanity?!?!?!?! :eek:

An occational washing might not do any significant harm in the Great Scheme of Things. There are, however, some significant questions. How often is the wash done? What is the grade of the AL involved? What protection, if any, is used (paint, wax, etc.)?

G.

stillknotreel
Dec. 7, 2010, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the nice compliment, but don't get all hepped up on my status. I'm a novice when it comes to Proper Dieseling.

For instance-- I don't know why my (new to me) 2001 7.3L PSD sounds like she's hissing sometimes in the cold. This is after driving to the freeway and then on it.

I assume her complicated electric brain is making some decision about "metabolism" and here engine temp. To date, I'm an IDI woman, and too proud/not worried about it enough to ask the question on a dedicate Diesel Forum. I haven't seen my trusty diesel mechanic in a while so I haven't asked him yet.

Note that, my friends: Neither truck has asked for anything but fuel lately. I have bragged on my old IDI in the past so I'll spare you another round of praise for her here.

Perhaps we *should* talk about gauges here-- as kind of a PSA. But most will roll their eyes, so I'll keep that techy discussion private unless anyone says they want to get in on that.






Most likely that whistling is your EBPV. The EBPV (Exhaust Back Pressure Valve) is used to aid in warm-up time. It works very well for warming the engine and cab when your engine high idles (You'll hear a truck high idle a few minutes after start, jumps from around 800 RPM to about 1,100 RPM). If you do not have a high idle setting then it does not work very well if your truck is just sitting there idling. It will cycle on and off while you are driving until the engine comes up to temp. It closes when you let off the fuel and it opens up when you give it fuel while driving.

Happens mostly when it's cold, '99-'01 7.3L's are notorious for this. To make it stop, you can unplug the EBPV, but your neighbors (dogs, small children, elderly neighbors etc.) might not appreciate how loud the truck becomes. Though it'll probably draw a lot of attention at a biker dive bar.

Best I can do on a vague description. If you want to know about gauges I can start another thread. Might as well make a thread about diesels for easy reference, haha.

Jaegermonster
Dec. 7, 2010, 08:54 AM
Whatever.

I have a F250 2002 7.3L PSD 2WD, 6 speed, 3.73 single rear wheel. In that model year, my hauling capacity was HIGHER than the F350 4X4 dually with the same specs per Ford.

.

Reed

Duh. You don't have an extra drive train and 2 extra tires and fenders so the 250 weighs less. I've looked at the Ford spec book too.
As far as the OP's question, the 250 and 350 are basically the same truck, but the 350 just has a beefed up rear end, until you really get fancy and start adding more options and stuff. I have had a a 97, 99 and 02 7.3.
Right now, I have an 02 250 PSD 4x4. No way am I letting it go.
I got a bigger trailer (3h LQ) and I had two springs added to the rear end to beef it up for the bigger trailer. It made a big difference.
I also have a 2h GN, and that one I don't even feel back there. Both trailers are all aluminum. Our next big purchase will be a dually.
And I"m in the I would never buy a horse pulling truck w/o 4wd. Better to have ti and not need it than need it and not have it.

My mileage is 17 mpg around town or w/o the smaller trailer and 15-16 with it, and about 14 mpg with the bigger trailer fully loaded with 3 horses. I foxhunt so I haul about 3-4 days a week up to 3 hours each way and several times a year go as far north as Virginia and sometimes vermont.

Jaegermonster
Dec. 7, 2010, 08:59 AM
For whomever asked, I've used Blue Beacon at several different locations and they have always done a good job, the trailer looks great. My 2h is 12 years old and the last time I had it done in NC when I came through the Ag at the FL line station the officer asked me if I was delivering a new trailer. The sun off the aluminum was hitting me in my mirror and blinding me.
I get my trailers acid washed about every 2-3 years. I don't know about other places but here in FL they get this green funk on them even if they move a lot, and then I worry about the salty air near the coast, plus I like my trailer to look nice :)

Behind the 8 Ball
Dec. 7, 2010, 09:36 AM
I have an 06 350 6.0L Diesel 4x4 single rear axle. I LOVE this truck. I have driven GMCs, Chevys, Diesel Suburbans, F150s and borrowed F250s. I have been hauling horses for 20 years from flat land in MI, icey twisty roads in MA and NH to the Endless Mountains of PA. We bought used and it has 114,000 miles on it. we had to replace the turbo at 90,000 ( $1800 including rental car while they fixed it) and replaced the front ball joints ( $900 ). One set of new tires in 45,000 miles ( $800 ). I get 18 - 20 mph with no trailer, 15-17 with my 2 horse BP filled with about 3000lbs of horse. It hauled an excavator on a trailer without hiccuping and we got about 15 mpg on that trip too ( 180 miles).

We took it instead of the mini van on vacation to NC because with the cap on the back, the hubs un locked and cruise control set, we get better than 24 mpg. Substantiated over multiple trips to Boston, Maryland, NC and upstate NY.

I rarely use my 4wd but I am happy I have it as we live in the snow belt and we use this beast for firewood ( holds 1 1/4 cords with out budging), hay (50 bales of 50+lb timothy stacked right ) sawdust, gravel etc.

The only thing I don't like is that parking is a bitch. I take up 2 spaces lengthwise and this is an old lumber town with small streets.

I am looking to upgrade to a 4H GN and I don't even think twice about weight or length of trailer because I got it covered.

Say what you like, I grew up as a motor head in Detroit and until about 1994 fixed with help from my boyfrieds and brothers my own cars. This truck is solid, dependable and should be on every horse owners christmas list!

Tiki
Dec. 7, 2010, 10:14 AM
SKR, duh
If you do buy a handheld programmer or tuner you can have the EGT, oil temperatures etc. read right on the screen, and you'll watch them jump around all day. do you have to actually install something somewhere to use these?? I'd be interested, but would have to buy the whatever needed and take it to my mechanic to set up. Do tell more.

Also, just got my F250 PSD fixed. It wouldn't start when cold, unless plugged in. When it finally did it would blow out great clouds of white smokeand then quit. When it did finally start - and keep running, it would run rough for a while as if the cold idle hadn't cut in, and then be OK. They thought it was the ficm for about $900, but lucky for me was the glow plug relay solenoid for only $300. Yaayyyy.

Mine hisses too when it is cold. I always wondered what that was. Now I can knowledgeably inform my friends when they ask. Thanks!!

Now a question, if I may. Mine is a 5 on the floor, granny gear, 1,2,3, plus overdrive. 187500 miles on it. It 'slips' sometimes. i.e., I step on the accelerator pedal, usually going uphill, but not always, and the tach goes up a lot but the ground speed doesn't increase. Clutch? Tranny? something else?????? It also doen't always seem to have full power, like going up a hill with the horse trailer I used to not even know the trailer was there, now it's working and I have to downshift. ????? Hints? Suggestions??? TIA!

I did once change a starting motor on my old Nash Ramber with my brother's directions over the phone. I have changed out a muffler and exhaust system at the auto club when I was in Germany - with the overseer's guidance, I can and have changed HUGE tires on trucks and horse trailers, but I don't like working on engines. That stuff goes to my mechanic.

RAyers
Dec. 7, 2010, 10:59 AM
SKR, duh do you have to actually install something somewhere to use these?? I'd be interested, but would have to buy the whatever needed and take it to my mechanic to set up. Do tell more.

Also, just got my F250 PSD fixed. It wouldn't start when cold, unless plugged in. When it finally did it would blow out great clouds of white smokeand then quit. When it did finally start - and keep running, it would run rough for a while as if the cold idle hadn't cut in, and then be OK. They thought it was the ficm for about $900, but lucky for me was the glow plug relay solenoid for only $300. Yaayyyy.

Mine hisses too when it is cold. I always wondered what that was. Now I can knowledgeably inform my friends when they ask. Thanks!!

Now a question, if I may. Mine is a 5 on the floor, granny gear, 1,2,3, plus overdrive. 187500 miles on it. It 'slips' sometimes. i.e., I step on the accelerator pedal, usually going uphill, but not always, and the tach goes up a lot but the ground speed doesn't increase. Clutch? Tranny? something else?????? It also doen't always seem to have full power, like going up a hill with the horse trailer I used to not even know the trailer was there, now it's working and I have to downshift. ????? Hints? Suggestions??? TIA!....

I hate to say but the glow plug relay usually goes around 100,000 miles. It seems I need to replace mine every 2 years. It makes it almost impossible to start on cold days. Here is the sad part, it is $100 or less for the part ($75 from the dealer for the part), and about 20 minutes to install. $300 is WAY WAY over priced.

It sounds like your clutch is bad. More likely pressure plate.

wildlifer
Dec. 7, 2010, 11:11 AM
I don't know if the newer ones are the same (my '01 hasn't had any glow plug issues yet), but on my old 85 diesel, when your glow plug controller quit (as it began to do a lot when the truck got over 12 years old or so), you could just bridge the circuit manually with a screwdriver.

Yes, that was me in high school, in the parking lot in the snow in my uniform skirt crawling up under the hood of my rusty suburban with a screwdriver, completing the circuit and then slipping and running back to the driver's seat to start it with a belch of smoke. Hey, no one can ever say my parents didn't teach their daughter useful skills, LOL.

mvp
Dec. 7, 2010, 11:37 AM
Not a theory, but fact! :)

And didn't The Bard warn us of vanity?!?!?!?! :eek:

An occational washing might not do any significant harm in the Great Scheme of Things. There are, however, some significant questions. How often is the wash done? What is the grade of the AL involved? What protection, if any, is used (paint, wax, etc.)?

G.

Yes the "How often with the acid tongue lick the aluminum sugar cube?.... What kind of aluminum is it?... What's on the top, if anything?" suite of questions is so confusing and ought to be taken into consideration.

I know Blue Beacon (and other acid washers) can tell me.... but then they are interested parties, you know? I'd like facts and the relevant set of them all in one convenient drive-thru situation. I'll settle for unbiased opinions and some leg work.


Most likely that whistling is your EBPV. The EBPV (Exhaust Back Pressure Valve) is used to aid in warm-up time. It works very well for warming the engine and cab when your engine high idles (You'll hear a truck high idle a few minutes after start, jumps from around 800 RPM to about 1,100 RPM). If you do not have a high idle setting then it does not work very well if your truck is just sitting there idling. It will cycle on and off while you are driving until the engine comes up to temp. It closes when you let off the fuel and it opens up when you give it fuel while driving.

Happens mostly when it's cold, '99-'01 7.3L's are notorious for this. To make it stop, you can unplug the EBPV, but your neighbors (dogs, small children, elderly neighbors etc.) might not appreciate how loud the truck becomes. Though it'll probably draw a lot of attention at a biker dive bar.

Best I can do on a vague description. If you want to know about gauges I can start another thread. Might as well make a thread about diesels for easy reference, haha.

I think you have located the source and "intention" of her cold weather hissing. This truck behaves just as you describe.

Now far be it from me to ask a smart diesel engine to not take care of itself. I'll let her hiss to her heart's content. This truck does have a chip (it's pretty lame-- we can talk about that later). But it has a high idle setting. Would this truck appreciate being given a few minutes on that after starting?


For whomever asked, I've used Blue Beacon at several different locations and they have always done a good job, the trailer looks great. My 2h is 12 years old and the last time I had it done in NC when I came through the Ag at the FL line station the officer asked me if I was delivering a new trailer. The sun off the aluminum was hitting me in my mirror and blinding me.
I get my trailers acid washed about every 2-3 years. I don't know about other places but here in FL they get this green funk on them even if they move a lot, and then I worry about the salty air near the coast, plus I like my trailer to look nice :)

Oh yes, a version of "the facts" that I like. Thanks. If I may ask one more question: Is your tailer smooth sided or does it have the horizontal "ridges" of mine on the lower part of the side? Does your have sticker stripes and whatnot? If "yes" to these questions, did the acid washing handle them both well?


SKR, duh do you have to actually install something somewhere to use these?? I'd be interested, but would have to buy the whatever needed and take it to my mechanic to set up. Do tell more.
I did once change a starting motor on my old Nash Ramber with my brother's directions over the phone. I have changed out a muffler and exhaust system at the auto club when I was in Germany - with the overseer's guidance, I can and have changed HUGE tires on trucks and horse trailers, but I don't like working on engines. That stuff goes to my mechanic.

The gauge/tuner question is big. There are many options in both categories. A primer (as a novice can deliver it):

Tuners and programmers are different, Both are devices with software that modify engine performance. Tuners come with fixed programs in them-- usually 5 or six set programs you can use to get more horse power, better fuel economy, "high idle" as I describe above for warming up your engine quickly, even "no start" settings that keep you truck from getting ripped off.

Programmers can have custom designed software (also multiple programs) built into them for you, in consultation with the ultimate Diesel Dork-Cum-Computer Geek. There are a few of these guys around, often referred to by first name on Diesel Forums.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each. Programmers will give you lots of control and you can have them modified by the original programmer. With tuners and their pre-fab settings you can changed them on the fly as your truck is running.

Last, some tuners/programmers come with digital gauges built into a little screen/box you have mounted somewhere convenient in the cab of your truck.

Other products are tuners/programmers only and you guy gauges (like the ISSPRO set Stillknotreel mentions) separately.

Again, there are advantages and disadvantages to each. I personally don't dig the little screens and various ways those display info from the three separate gauges I'd want. But they are unobstrusive and cheaper that the traditional option.

The traditional option gives you a wider range of both types of products. The true Ur-way of doing gauges is to get a set mounted somewhere in view. Many will have a look that seems close to "factory" but your truck will start to look more like the cockpit of a plane.

I'm sure I have gotten parts wrong and that is it is more complicated than this if you dig deeper, but it's a start.
Maybe we do need a catch-all Diesel Dork thread for discussions like this.

Tiki
Dec. 7, 2010, 01:09 PM
So, so, RAyers
I hate to say but the glow plug relay usually goes around 100,000 miles. It seems I need to replace mine every 2 years. It makes it almost impossible to start on cold days. Here is the sad part, it is $100 or less for the part ($75 from the dealer for the part), and about 20 minutes to install. $300 is WAY WAY over priced. is it fair to consider that for a 9 year old truck, it only cost me $50 per year to get the solenoid replaced? AND, it got me to 187455 miles before I had to replace it? So can I tell myself that it really wasn't WAY WAY overpriced - especially if you had to replace yours every 2 years??? It was still better than the ficm at $900.

Perfect Pony
Dec. 7, 2010, 01:50 PM
I drove a 1999 7.3, my second 7.3, 357,000 miles and never saw 16 MPG pulling a trailer. I got 17 to 18 on the interstates at 65 - 70 MPH.

Straight drive, 6 gears, 3.57 rear end.

AS for 4 x 4, it is a very bad mistake to purchase a diesel without 4x4.

I don't really care to spend a lot of time looking for some farmer to bring his tractor to move me to a better place.

The first thing a buyer of a used truck looks for is whether it is a 4x4. You will get your money back at that point.

CSSJR

Wow you are a real piece of work. Anyone who doesn't do as you think and say "is not knowledgable"? Are you kidding me? Anyone who does not have the same experiences as you isn't telling the truth?

Well my husband is a mechanic and worked on trucks and SUVs for years. We also haul not only the horse trailer, but a camper and a boat as well. All over Northern California. Yes, on the grass and in the dirt even, up mountains, on the boat launch.

We have a 2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax Diesel with a <gasp>! 2WD. We also get 16-17MPG hauling, probably because we are not driving a vehicle that is heavier than we need. The truck now has 80k trouble free miles on it, and does double duty as my husbands daily driver as well as our hauling vehicle. because of this we bought a 2wd ON PURPOSE. OMG! Imagine that, buying the right vehicle for what you will be using it for, no matter what a random person on the internet says.

RAyers
Dec. 7, 2010, 01:50 PM
So, so, RAyers is it fair to consider that for a 9 year old truck, it only cost me $50 per year to get the solenoid replaced? AND, it got me to 187455 miles before I had to replace it? So can I tell myself that it really wasn't WAY WAY overpriced - especially if you had to replace yours every 2 years??? It was still better than the ficm at $900.

What was replaced? The solenoid or the relay? They are different things. I have yet to replace the solenoid at 220K. Glow plug relays on the 7.3L are notorious for failing (almost as bad as the old CPS). As for me, I still only spent $150 for 2 glow plug relays over 9 years.

cssutton
Dec. 7, 2010, 08:33 PM
Wow you are a real piece of work. Anyone who doesn't do as you think and say "is not knowledgable"? Are you kidding me? Anyone who does not have the same experiences as you isn't telling the truth?

Well my husband is a mechanic and worked on trucks and SUVs for years. We also haul not only the horse trailer, but a camper and a boat as well. All over Northern California. Yes, on the grass and in the dirt even, up mountains, on the boat launch.

We have a 2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax Diesel with a <gasp>! 2WD. We also get 16-17MPG hauling, probably because we are not driving a vehicle that is heavier than we need. The truck now has 80k trouble free miles on it, and does double duty as my husbands daily driver as well as our hauling vehicle. because of this we bought a 2wd ON PURPOSE. OMG! Imagine that, buying the right vehicle for what you will be using it for, no matter what a random person on the internet says.


My point was simply:

OP wanted advice. It is misleading to make her think she is going to get over 20MPH empty and 16 or so pulling any weight.

she may or she may not, depending on trailer weight but also on trailer design. She should start out with the understanding that the truck is made to pull lots of weight at any legal speed up any hill she comes to and that takes power and lots of fuel.

It is also not helpful to tell anyone who needs to ask for advice that they do not need a 4x4.

If one needs to ask for advice, one needs everything they can get going for them.

especially a woman because a woman needing help in a remote area is a target.

Now as for all of the comments on mileage and how ill tempered I am, I would suggest that you go to this link.

There is a survey there for 6.7 owners as to their MPG results.

At the top of the posts, right hand corner, there is a link that will take you to the graphics of the results.

However, reading the comments is more revealing. You can see that towing weights makes a huge difference.

I might also add that most do not take the drag chute effect into account. An example, my trailer is 7'6" inside. I can go down I-77 from Fancy Gap to the VA/NC line without touching the brakes. That is a pretty steep grade. I have not looked it up, but I would estimate that it is a 9% grade. Without tow/haul engaged, the truck will accelerate to 70 MPH and stabilize on that speed for the full trip to the NC line.

So someone with a stock trailer 6' inside will have less drag and will get better MPG than I will just because they have less parasitic drag.

Note also that one poster who owns both a Duramx and a F350 states that their is no difference in MPG.

Note also that trucks with regen, and all new ones have some form of regen, get worse MPG than those without it.

Watching the panel readout, which is about 1 MPG off the real world, I can see a 2 MPG drop after regen. It takes 40 or 50 miles (I think never having actually measured that) for the MPG to come back up to what it was before regen.

Anyone purchasing a new truck is going to purchase a lot of fuel.

Some time ago, Ford did a update on my computer that reduced drastically the frequency of regens and mileage did improve significantly when traveling on the interstate not pulling.

Read the link. It is interesting. There are other threads on the same site. elating to MPG .

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f149/6-7-fuel-mileage-poll-empty-vs-loaded-towing-264073/

It is also a good place to ask questions.

CSSJR

cssutton
Dec. 7, 2010, 08:47 PM
Another:


http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f150/mpgs-had-new-6-7-a-258275/index2.html

Jaegermonster
Dec. 7, 2010, 08:55 PM
Oh yes, a version of "the facts" that I like. Thanks. If I may ask one more question: Is your tailer smooth sided or does it have the horizontal "ridges" of mine on the lower part of the side? Does your have sticker stripes and whatnot? If "yes" to these questions, did the acid washing handle them both well?
.

The short answer is yes, yes and yes.
The long answer is my 2h has the ridges and is not painted anywhere but has the decal graphics. The aicd washing did not affect them in the least.
The 3hLQ has flat aluminum on the top part and the bottom part is flat painted white and it did fine as well.

LoveJubal
Dec. 7, 2010, 10:49 PM
I never knew how much I didn't know about trucks!!

Thank you everyone for the volume of information. I will have to re-read this thread a couple of times before it all sinks in, but I have a great place to start.

One more thing --- If anyone has has any bad experiences with the new Fords or GMC/Chevys, please let me know. Hubby would like to buy a new truck, but we are open to looking at used ones as well.

Thanks again for all the insight. This truck is going to be a BIG purchase and we want to do it right the first time... :yes:

ACP
Dec. 7, 2010, 11:02 PM
The F-350, of course. I've driven pretty much every version of light truck Ford makes. I learned to drive 50 years ago in a hay-field in a 59 Ford. There is a reason Ford trucks are best sellers. Their F-350 is super. I don't own one now. We use a Ford E-450 Motor Home with the big 10 cylinder block to pull a small two horse. If I was going back to a goose neck trailer with LQs or a 4 horse with a dressing room, the F-350 would be my choice for sure.

Guilherme
Dec. 8, 2010, 07:43 AM
I never knew how much I didn't know about trucks!!

Thank you everyone for the volume of information. I will have to re-read this thread a couple of times before it all sinks in, but I have a great place to start.

One more thing --- If anyone has has any bad experiences with the new Fords or GMC/Chevys, please let me know. Hubby would like to buy a new truck, but we are open to looking at used ones as well.

Thanks again for all the insight. This truck is going to be a BIG purchase and we want to do it right the first time... :yes:

Here's a forum that discusses the Chevy/GMC trucks.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/?

It's not all "happiness and sunshine." There are some very frank discussions of pros and cons of different versions of the Duramax trucks.

Make your pick based upon your needs and your evaluation of the models offered.

Good luck in your choice.

G.

stillknotreel
Dec. 8, 2010, 03:19 PM
mvp: Any diesel will appreciate a good few minutes to warm up. I usually go out in the morning, start my truck, grab the paper and let the dog out, load up the truck and then go. A good 5 or 10 minutes is usually best. Diesels hate the cold, and especially a vehicle that has glow plugs.

One of the best things you can do for a vehicle with glow plugs is install a heater grid. Dodges run off heater grids and they can be installed in any truck regardless of whether it has glow plugs or not. It's something that even a monkey can make; costs about $50. That's somewhat of another thread though, but if any is interested let me know. Heater grids heat up almost instantly, which helps assist any truck with glow plugs, as they take a bit to warm themselves up.

I'm all in for the diesel thread. I'm sure it'd be helpful for all the non-diesel monkeys out there, and it distracts me when I don't want to be working.

mvp
Dec. 8, 2010, 05:24 PM
mvp: Any diesel will appreciate a good few minutes to warm up. I usually go out in the morning, start my truck, grab the paper and let the dog out, load up the truck and then go. A good 5 or 10 minutes is usually best. Diesels hate the cold, and especially a vehicle that has glow plugs.

One of the best things you can do for a vehicle with glow plugs is install a heater grid. Dodges run off heater grids and they can be installed in any truck regardless of whether it has glow plugs or not. It's something that even a monkey can make; costs about $50. That's somewhat of another thread though, but if any is interested let me know. Heater grids heat up almost instantly, which helps assist any truck with glow plugs, as they take a bit to warm themselves up.

I'm all in for the diesel thread. I'm sure it'd be helpful for all the non-diesel monkeys out there, and it distracts me when I don't want to be working.

Yeah, then we can talk about engine block heaters and glow plugs and good batteries for the money and favorite fuel additives... all in time for cold weather.

I will say that the starter on my trusty old IDI seems stronger than on the 2001 PSD. Not sure why Ford thought that was a good idea. The Old Girl can be trusted to start in the most bitter of conditions. There are some other things she does right, too.

I'm also pretty sure my IDI will come closer to the 400,000 mile mark than will my PSD before "extraordinary life-saving measures" is required. When I learned about diesels in the IDI era, I was taught that life expectancy.

For the rest of you: Here is the collection of diesel sites, all in one place:

Ford-centric:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/

http://www.powerstrokenation.com/

http://www.powerstroke.org/

Chevy/GMC:

http://www.duramaxforum.com/

Dodge:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/

cssutton
Dec. 8, 2010, 09:08 PM
The older engines cranked immediately because they had mechanical injector pumps.

The PSD series must crank long enough for the oil pressure to start building before the fuel injection system can do its thing.

So you have a bad combination on cold days: Cold stiff oil, cold weak battery and a slow to operate injection system.

On both my '94 and '99, you got two attempts to crank on a cold morning. Then the battery died.

Using the block heater was mandatory on cold days.

And the batteries got a lot of attention and care.

Ford cured that in the 6.4.

SSJR

wildlifer
Dec. 9, 2010, 09:26 AM
Don't forget http://www.ford-trucks.com. Those guy are great and have always been really helpful when I had questions.

I don't need a block heater here in NC really, the PSD gets a little cranky on cold days, but she still starts up in her cloud of white smoke. I just make sure the batteries are in top condition!

RAyers
Dec. 9, 2010, 09:58 AM
The older engines cranked immediately because they had mechanical injector pumps.

The PSD series must crank long enough for the oil pressure to start building before the fuel injection system can do its thing.

So you have a bad combination on cold days: Cold stiff oil, cold weak battery and a slow to operate injection system.

On both my '94 and '99, you got two attempts to crank on a cold morning. Then the battery died.

Using the block heater was mandatory on cold days.

And the batteries got a lot of attention and care.

Ford cured that in the 6.4.

SSJR

I agree that batteries and alternator need a lot of care and that older diesel engines needed block heaters. But I disagree that the newer 7.3L engines are not good in the cold or that they even need block heaters anymore. They have mechanical high pressure oil pumps as well.

My truck sits in the airport parking lot for weeks at a time in the winter and I have only had one issue starting it. It was because it averaged -13 degrees F for the week and I did not realize my glow plug relay was shot. Even then it started on the 10th OR 11th try (yes, the block was "cold soaked" and the PV=nRT was needed to heat it up) with no help.

Reed

wildlifer
Dec. 9, 2010, 02:05 PM
OMG, I am such a science nerd....I just started chanting the little physics song we made up...."PV=nRT, doo dah, doo dah...." Sorry, carry on........

Jaegermonster
Dec. 9, 2010, 05:21 PM
I agree that batteries and alternator need a lot of care and that older diesel engines needed block heaters. But I disagree that the newer 7.3L engines are not good in the cold or that they even need block heaters anymore. They have mechanical high pressure oil pumps as well.

My truck sits in the airport parking lot for weeks at a time in the winter and I have only had one issue starting it. It was because it averaged -13 degrees F for the week and I did not realize my glow plug relay was shot. Even then it started on the 10th OR 11th try (yes, the block was "cold soaked" and the PV=nRT was needed to heat it up) with no help.

Reed

The "newer 7.3L engines" were last made in 2002, so even the new ones aren't that "new".