2 more TB potential broodmares - Update, new pic pg 5

[JB]

You guys have been SO very helpful on the others I've posted. So, if you can, here are 2 more, both 3yo, VERY recently raced:

This first one is between 15.2 and 15.3. Her sire is Favorite Trick - don't know damsire, sorry.

**picture removed on the request of Fairweather - can't say as I blame her.**

This 2nd one has some osselets and was racing "starved". In this pic she's gained about 130lb. She is already 16.2 I don't know her breeding but as soon as I find it I'll update here:

**picture removed on the request of Fairweather - can't say as I blame her.**

Critique is for a sporthorse broodmare, preferably as a hunter. Either with TB, WB, TB/WB, or TB-looking QH stallions.

[JB]

You guys have been SO very helpful on the others I've posted. So, if you can, here are 2 more, both 3yo, VERY recently raced:

This first one is between 15.2 and 15.3. Her sire is Favorite Trick - don't know damsire, sorry.

**picture removed on the request of Fairweather - can't say as I blame her.**

This 2nd one has some osselets and was racing "starved". In this pic she's gained about 130lb. She is already 16.2 I don't know her breeding but as soon as I find it I'll update here:

**picture removed on the request of Fairweather - can't say as I blame her.**

Critique is for a sporthorse broodmare, preferably as a hunter. Either with TB, WB, TB/WB, or TB-looking QH stallions.

[caryledee]

Oh, just pick one already JB!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
No, really I'm just kidding... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I like the 2nd mare better here..she's got a nicer topline and shoulder. She's also a better size to be a sporthorse mom (IMO). To me, she looks more like an athlete. I think she'd be booo-tiful with a little weight and cleaned up.

[Oakstable]

I like the second one too. Lots of stallions to choose from to compliment this mare.

But what are her bloodlines?

I bought a TB mare at a TB rescue just based on the fact that she was built like a WB mare. At the time, I didn't know her pedigree. It turns out she is a cousin to the late Prince Thatch through their common grandsire, the very famous Forli, the Argentian version of Cigar.

She has been a wonderful broodmare for me.

[talloaks]

I'm with Carydelee, I like the second one!!! She has a better topline and great size for a broodmare and I think has a nice head. I really like her. #2 all the way!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Tom King]

Overall the second one would be the choice. The main thing that worries me about her is that it looks like she has a short femur and very long gaskin but the light is really dark there and with the leg forward in the photo also doesn't help. A long gaskin is of course bad for longevity.

[helen elizabeth]

Number two please http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I like the balance of her conformation better than number one--who is lacking to some degree.

[amdfarm]

I also pick number 2... much more feminine head and nicer shoulder... along w/ overall balance.

[showjumpers66]

Pass on both mares!!!! I would not recommend breeding either mare.

The first mare has a very low neck set and, while it may be just how she is standing, she looks unsound through her back. She looks roached. The underside of her neck is heavily muscled. Her shoulder is too straight. She looks tied in at the knee and has a plain head.

The second mare has a nice long neck, but still set too low. She has a terrible topline and saddle position. Imagine putting a saddle on this mare. The girth would be at least 4 inches farther back than it should. This mare looks weak in her loin and has no hip.

[amdfarm]

I took her being race "starved" and lack of proper conditioning into consideration. So many TB mares have that same wither short-coming and that's why they make pads, risers and saddles to fit them properly.

[okggo]

I vote for #2 as well. You have to see through the skinny and I'd bet she will fill out nice!
My mare was deathly thin when I got her and she would have been torn apart by conformation critiques. Now she looks like a totally different horse, nice topline, etc. I don't expect a topline on TBs off the track, that comes with groceries and proper muscling (most of the time) IMO.
In fact....give me a sec and I'll post some before/after pics to prove my point http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[okggo]

Ok- here is the first horse. The first pic is him on the track (so you can see how they get ridden inverted), second is him right off the track (a couple months), and the third is a year off the track. Check out the difference in the topline. Off to photoshop on more set...

[FairWeather]

okggo, you should show them the rest of his body http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Second mare is very underweight right now--her pictures make her look ok, but she's such a big mare that she needs another 200 pounds to look 'right'.

[okggo]

Okay, here is another more extreme case. First pic is race shot as a 2 year old- major camel look going. Second shot is just off the track and all bones (I mean ALL BONES) as a 3 year old. Third pic is a year later as a 4 year old.

I have full body pics, too- that would make your jaw drop.
Moral of this story- sometimes if you look through poor body condition there is a really nice horse.

[FairWeather]

duh. i just realized who that is! amazing difference!!

[okggo]

LOL- Fairweather, you would not recognize her now. She has grown in height and girth http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif but same ole sweet personality http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You have to come visit when the baby is born!!!

[serenityfarm]

I agree with showjumper66, I would not breed to either of them. Same reasons she gave above.

[Ashemont]

JB -

What exactly is your breeding goal? If you are still looking to get a nice pinto hunter then my advice remains the same - go buy one that is already on the ground. What if you get one of these mares, breed her, and then get a solid colored foal? What kind of market will there be for the baby? How much of an investment will you have by then? Buying what you want as a foal would certainly be cheaper in the long run.

There are TONS of cheap or free TB mares around. My personal opinion is that the biggest investment in breeding should be a quality MARE. The market is currently depressed and breeding poor quality horses is just throwing money away.

If you seriously want to breed then save up your money and buy the very best mare you can find. While occasionally you can find a bargain, most good broodmares are worth their weight in gold and their owners know that.

I personally wouldn't want either of these mares in my breeding program. If I were breeding for the hunter market I would need more from the mare than her just being a TB. She'd have to have the right temperament, mind, movement, pedigree, etc. I want a mare who definitely brings something to the table - not one that I'll be expecting the stallion to 'fix'.

[FairWeather]

ashemonte, you said you'd pass, but then also said "She'd have to have the right temperament, mind, movement, pedigree, etc."

How do you know these mares arent dead quiet, sensible, 10 movers with pedigree's to die for?

JB, I already told you my opinion on both, so i wont share here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Iluvgoldies]

JB,
I too think that if you are planning on breeding, an investment in a nice mare is going to be worth it. Ottb mares can be nice, and every once in a while you will find an exceptional one - but mostly they are average horses who would make great riding horses but dont have that extra something special to make them a broodmare.

That didn't exactly come out right, but I think you know what Im getting at.

Someone mentioned your goal is a pinto hunter for yourself ? Have you thought of buying a 2 or 3 year old that is ready for you to start working with ? Or do you want the experience of foaling out a mare and raising a baby from day one?

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree. I'd pass on both. The 2nd mare is totally out of body balance with her shoulder to withers being very large, and her back, and hindquarter being short.

[Iluvgoldies]

Oh, another idea ! JB have you considered the option of leasing a broodmare or having a custom foal?

Find someone with a nice broodmare, you choose the stallion and you get a nice foal and don't have the broodmare afterwards. You could either leave the broodmare with the owner, or take her to your barn so you can experience foaling etc.

I have a nice pinto TB/WB mare that is going to be a broodmare and a riding horse. She is only 2, but could be bred in 2005. I would entertain the idea for someone to do a custom foal with her. But I would want to keep the mare with me. I would do the foaling out etc, and it would be nice to know that the foal has a home lined up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is a link to a picture of her:
Anya (http://www.geocities.com/iluvgoldies/anya.html)

Even if she is not what you like in a mare (doesn't matter, I LOVE her to peices http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) what do you think of going this route?

[Ashemont]

FairWeather -

I'd pass on these mares based on what I see. Even if they had everything else going for them... which I doubt after seeing their conformation flaws... they'd still have to be correct.

Iluvgoldies -

Your idea sounds great and I think it's something more folks should consider. Afterall, breeding isn't for everyone and it's sad to find that out AFTER you own the mare. Plus it would be a super way to increase the odds of getting exactly what one wanted in the foal. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JB]

Iluv, no, I haven't really considered leasing for the following reason: 4 weeks ago I lost JB, and now Rio is an only child. We'd always planned on having 3 horses - JB, Rio, and a horse for hubby. We still want 3 so that when I take Rio to shows and such, there will be 2 left. I've also always wanted to do a LITTLE breeding, sell a couple and keep one for myself as a replacement for Rio down the road. So, given that we're looking for a hubby horse AND a "companion" I thought I'd try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone and make the companion horse also a potential broodmare. If she's rideable that's a bonus http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And, your filly is just beautiful http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If I find myself in the leasing position in a few years I'll look you up! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JB]

btw... 2nd mare is by Tommorrow's Cat who's by Storm Cat.

[Ashemont]

So sorry to hear you lost JB. That is always tough.

I can understand why you'd want to breed one as I'm totally addicted. But I hope you don't think you'll make money at it. Sometimes you don't even cover expenses - especially when things go wrong. I do most of the work myself and still my vet costs for breeding this year were over $3000 (hubby has promised that the next horse I sell I can buy my OWN ultrasound http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And then we lost a foal... after it went septic and we tried everything we could to save it at considerable expense.

As long as you understand it's rarely a money-making thing then welcome aboard! But let me warn you... it's really quite addictive and you might soon find yourself with many more horses than you planned on http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Edited for my bad grammar http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Oakstable]

You can always buy a mare who has already been evaluated by a warmblood jury.

I must be more of an impulsive type. I've bought mares sight unseen three times, actually five times. Four were warmbloods and one was a Quarter/Morgan that was third level, but due to some navicular changes on x-rays, I got her for $1,000.

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'd pass on these mares based on what I see. Even if they had everything else going for them... which I doubt after seeing their conformation flaws... they'd still have to be correct. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe i'm reading this wrong, but are you saying that conformation has something to do with temperment? We all know that some really atrociously built horses can move well, so i'm sure thats not what you meant.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

JB, you would be getting a slew of other opinions if you wrote "hey! look at this mare i just bought!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[sidepasser]

Hi,

on looks alone, I like the second mare better than the first, although the first mare has some nice points about her that the second mare is lacking. Both appear (and it may be the pictures themselves) to have a low tied in neck. The second mare would have a nicer hip/loin with weight and work. First mare has a coarser head, the neck is also much thicker and heavier. The first mare has a shorter, heavier gaskin than the second, although the pic is dark and it is hard to tell.
Overall, if you really look at the first mare, she appears to be put together better proportionally than the second mare. What I mean is that even though the first mare has many faults, her proportions look to be more in balance than the second mare. i.e. short thick neck and short heavier hip, neither uphill nor downhill on hip or wither. The second mare appears out of proportion in the front end (withers, shoulder compared to the rear end-hip and loin). This could be lack of weight, but if one strips away flesh from bone and looks at the skeleton remaining, it appears that the withers and shoulder are actually a lot more massive than the point of hip to point of hock area. Ok someone help me out here...I can't explain this except that the power comes from the rear, and there doesn't seem to be enough "rear" here. It looks weak to me (may again be pics.) One thing is certain, you'd never worry about the saddle slipping too far forward on mare 2.

Both appear to have nice eyes, good jaws, mare 2 has a better head, more feminine looking which is nice.

Hard to say if breeding could overcome either of their conformational faults, of course it is a gamble even when breeding two horses of really good conformation.

Sidepasser

[showjumpers66]

Whoa, whoa, whoa ....

We are talking broodmares and not riding prospects. This is NOT a trait that you want to pass on to sporthorse foals. Why produce foals that need special fitting???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by amdfarm:
I took her being race "starved" and lack of proper conditioning into consideration. So many TB mares have that same wither short-coming and that's why they make pads, risers and saddles to fit them properly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[showjumpers66]

Not from me! If an opinion is asked, I try to give it as honestly as possible. While I might not say, "What were you thinking??", I would certainly say enough to give that impression.

There is a difference between riding quality and breeding quality. I am not saying that these mares will not go on to be nice mounts for someone, but neither of these mares are worth breeding for sport (based on these photos). There are MUCH better mares to be found for under $1500. No amount of weight is going to correct these mares faults. Yes, it will make them look more appealing, but the faults will always be there. I have a rescue gelding with a topline like the 2nd mare. Yes, weight improved it, but I still ride him with a breast collar and a lift or my saddle ends up on his loin. You do NOT want to produce foals with this problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
JB, you would be getting a slew of other opinions if you wrote "hey! look at this mare i just bought!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[hansiska]

JB, please check your PTs...

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showjumpers66:
There are MUCH better mares to be found for under $1500. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm all ears! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[amdfarm]

I agree w/ Fairweather. It'd also be different, more than likely, if someone else had posed the same question.

Showjumper... She's looking for a riding horse and broodmare all in one, so yes, we're talking about both.

A poster showed before and after pics, though not of the whole horse, but good food and conditioning can do wonders and has done wonders for so many OTTB's looking for second careers as a riding horse and/or as breeding stock.

Therefore, my mentioning saddle fitting was a generalization and to the point.

No horse is perfect period... they all have short-comings. Not all high withered horses produce high withers. I used to have one and none of her foals had that problem. She had a great disposition, nice conformation, wonderful movement and good bloodlines.

L.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Not from me either. If someone wants comments about a mare they just bought, I don't answer. I will try and help someone that is making a decision. I would not breed either of these 2 mares.

[showjumpers66]

JB, I know of 3 people with sporthorse breeding programs with TB mares for sale ... I'll see if I can get photos and will PT you. Typically, I just hang out at the auctions with my lunge line and have picked up on some very nice bargains. There was a fabulously bred, 16.3 hand, 4 year old, loud sabino mare who was drop dead gorgeous. I had her bought for $750 as we were at the "going, going, ...", but this man started seizuring and they put the auction on hold for an hour while EMSA was treating him. She stood up there the entire time. When the auction resumed, she sold for $2500.

[JB]

Eww showjumper, that sucks!

I know if you ask 10 different "professional" breeders about both of these mares you'd get more than 10 answers to "would you breed her" and they would even likely be wishy-washy based on whether the opinion was based purely on these pictures, whether they saw them in person stood in a conformation pose, whether they saw them moving, etc. "Withers" are a typical TB trait. Not that it makes it good or bad, because it's all relative. I look also at the fact the 2nd mare is 16.2 as a 3yo and isn't done growing the top half of her body. Will that make the withers settle down some? Only time will tell.

I would love to hear stories about Storm Cat granddaughters and how they grew, if anybody has any.

[Silly Mommy]

JB - did you get the picture of Yak's mom???

Please post it - that mare looked identical to mare #2 when I bought her - almost to the point that I gasped. I say go for it - adding weight and topline muscle will make those withers disappear.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silly Mommy:
JB - did you get the picture of Yak's mom???

Please post it - that mare looked identical to mare #2 when I bought her - almost to the point that I gasped. I say go for it - adding weight and topline muscle will make those withers disappear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is SM's Annie (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/OtherCritters/Annie4-8-04b.jpg) - mother of The Yak whom I'm sure most of you have seen by now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[okggo]

MEMEMEMEME!!! I have a Storm Cat granddaughter whom I love to death. She was 16.2 and bones when I got her as a 3 year old. She is AT LEAST 16.3 now and huge- she tanked out all over. And the best personality and mind of any horse I have EVER been around.
Feel free to PT me for more info, I could go on about my girl for 8 pages http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
I also have plenty of pics when I got her- she does not look like the same horse, not even a little. I purchased her b/c she had the BEST movement and mind- I was going to event her (she was to replace my now retired gelding) and had figured maybe waaay down the line breed. That came to head much faster than I planned b/c she broke her hock when she slipped in the mud and fell in the field.
I love this mare to death http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JB]

okggo, PT'ing you!!!

[Fairview Horse Center]

The mares are not alike. (SM's Annie and #2)

[JB]

Fairview, for my education, would you point out the differences between Annie and Mare #2? Back length is one thing that seems obvious to me.

Also, just so it's clear (couldn't tell from your post) SM was trying to say that her Annie looked like Mare #2 when she got her, and doesn't now.

[okggo]

JB you have a reply http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Annie has better balance between her 3 "sections". Point of shoulder thru withers/withers to loin and flank/loin and flank to point of hip. These 3 parts should be even.

#2's withers also extend so far back that you will be sitting on her loin - not good at all for elastic movement, use of back, connection.

[Ashemont]

Well the subject says "TB potential broodmares" so my comments were based on that. And FWIW I know JB and she knows that *I* would say the same thing even if she had already bought the mare(s). I just don't think that comment holds water.

Also, I never said that temperament and conformation went hand in hand. Where did THAT comment come from? I want a good temperament and a good mind first and foremost. I can accept SOME conformation flaws... but not the ones I see in these mares. Don't understand the confusions... but then I'm old and on drugs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif However I cannot be accused of having Altzheimer's as I'm a polio survivor and that's the ONE thing I can't get http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ashemont:
However I cannot be accused of having Altzheimer's as I'm a polio survivor and that's the ONE thing I can't get http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I didn't know that! Learn somethin' new every day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I did say I'd like for the mare to be rideable somewhere in there, but that isn't the primary goal for this mare. Of course, if one isn't rideable from unsoundness due to conformational issues, then certainly I wouldn't want to breed it. But track-related injuries (which I would think would surely come up on a 16.2 3yo raced in an unhealthy condition) are another issue and would likely drop a mare's price down to my budget http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have a feeling the assumption you meant conformation and temperment came from this that you wrote: "Even if they had everything else going for them... which I doubt after seeing their conformation flaws... they'd still have to be correct." *I* know that's not what you meant, but I can totally see how someone who doesn't know you could read it in the way it was not intended. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Silly Mommy]

For those of you who are unwilling to look past a starved OTTB, here is what Annie looked like when I brought her home...

Annie when I bought her (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwD9AksUTbKdCzCcb3uE!Nbi5sAyiriJfy707WhSJlz5ZPBME lmyoYaXFLIHi76JVALvIlXlyQa!VNMBsvuesyMr19NApOF*GIl xglPVzuc/Annie.jpg?dc=4675499424242089642)

then right before I lost her this spring:

Annie after (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/OtherCritters/Annie4-8-04b.jpg)

and then the mare in question:

mare #2 (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/OtherCritters/funnygirlconfo.jpg)

[Fairview Horse Center]

I stand by my opinion - thin does not alter a balanced body

[Silly Mommy]

That's fine Fairview - but I don't judge a horse by pics alone. Camera angle can always do weird things.

I just brought home a beautiful mare today that I had TOTALLY discounted from her picture on the Exceller site. When I went to the track to look at another mare, I happened by her stall, and holy cow!!!! Her back doesn't drop like a lead sled after her withers after all!

I think that a camera and a brief moment in time can do a great injustice.

[showjumpers66]

It is not so much the high withers that are the problem, but where they put the saddle. Annie's saddle position is much better than mare #2 regardless of weight. Annie is longer in the hip.

I agree that pictures can do horses an injustice, but we were asked to critque the mares based on the photos.

[Silly Mommy]

Annie was longer in the hip - you're right, but I superimposed the pics, and until that point, the front ends are identical (including ugly ankles http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

So, when I post pics of my new girls tomorrow, are y'all gonna break them apart???
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Tom King]

I am not saying that I would recommend this horse for breeding but there seems to be differences of opinion on parts of conformation so it looks like a good point of discussion.

On my screen I measure the pelvis size of the second horse 1 9/16 inches and the overall body length at 4 5/8 inches. That's pretty close to 1/3 which is considered the minumum length but okay. The peak of withers is behind the elbow where it should be but not TOO far back. Those are what I call Grand Teton withers but not very unusual for a young TB. The back I measure at 2 3/16 which is 47% of overall body length. That's a wee bit long compared to the ideal but not too long to be able to improve it within the desirable range. I loaned my angle finder (available from Lowes where the combination squares are) to someone yesterday and haven't gotten it back yet but the shoulder angle and pelvis angles look okay to me. The length and angle of the humerus look okay to me although I do have a little trouble seeing exactly where the point of shoulder is.

The thing that really bothers me is that you can't see the back leg confo in the photo. The femur looks short and the gaskin long but it could easily be the photo.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree, photos can be very deceiving, but we are given a photo and asked to judge the mare by it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I am judging basic balance the way the Sporthorse breeding seminars I have attended have described. Gerd Zuther says - The first thing you look at is basic balance between the 3 parts (he described and pointed out where each part begins - as I have in my previous post) This measurement should be even, or very close to it. I consider body balance to be pretty important (that and loin connection) She didn't pass my first test. Her hindquarter is very short compared to her front end.

I do believe good TB mares for breeding can be found, BUT NOT MOST. Many will make fine RIDING horses. This post said potential BROODMARES. I would pass. There are MANY mares that other people would breed that I would not. If you want an opinion on a horse you already have, I will not comment unless I think it is a nice horse. (Say nothing unless I can say the horse is very nice)

[Oakstable]

It would be nice if we could harness the energy that has gone into critiquing a mare who needs a good home into something constructive. The world sure could use it.

I've been around the breeding block a time or two, and that second mare is as nice or nicer than many TBs I have had in my breeding program. I pick good stallions for them and consistently have good results.

Of course, in this forum, if you ask for a critique, stand back.

I've been breeding sporthorses for 15 years and the only time I had to present my mare for preapproval was the first time when I asked to breed an unregistered grade appendix mare to a local Trakehner stallion. The resulting foal was a major success and his success in the dressage world in California suckered me into this addictive habit.

I hope JB ends up with that mare. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Sally

[Oakstable]

So the stallion owners on this thread who would not breed this mare, are you screening your breedings by requiring video and photos of the mares before contracting for a breeding?

Sally

[Astraled]

JB, have you thought of looking for older mares? Since you have space for a companion, you might be able to land a really special older lady with a few breeding years left in return for retiring her. It's usually the best way to start a breeding program out on the right foot.

[Silly Mommy]

I think that we should start a new policy since we all have our (very different) preferences here.

If you don't breed them, don't critique them.

I could go on a rant on my oppinion of most WB mares and a bunch of horse hockey about inspections, but I won't. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[showjumpers66]

Oakstable, a mare needing a good home is 100% the WRONG reason to choose a mare as a broodmare prospect. This is 100% the reason that the US is not on par with Europe with their breeding program. We need to focus on improving our mare base before we will be taken seriously. I have culled all but one TB mare from my breeding program. I would add other TB mares to my program, but they would have to be exceptional in movement, type, conformation, and temperament. I really like my F1 crosses and both are fabulous producers.

I gave my opinion because it was asked for and since you did not like what I had to say, it appears that it was not welcome. JB, I would strongly advise you to look further for a mare.

[Anna M]

I would definitely rule out #1, as she looks to me like a Western Pleasure prospect. I would not personally breed to the second mare, but she is the better choice of the two. She does not look to have much power in the hind end, and she could definitely be more uphill, but she is pretty and would certainly look better with more weight. My personal test for an acceptable broodmare is whether in breeding you would be happy if you got a carbon copy of the mare. If not, I pass on her.

[showjumpers66]

I looked for about 10 minutes and found some better mares ... my point is that they are a dime a dozen.

Better Mare for under $1500 (http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/RexysFirecracker-1.jpg)

Another Better Mare for under $1500 (http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/TuniesSecret-1.jpg)

Aged mare, very cheap (http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/RajasDecision-1.jpg)

Cute mare (http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/PattyCake-1.jpg)

Last one (http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/CCRed-1.jpg)

[Ashemont]

Jb I'm glad YOU understood what I meant as you're the one who really counts on this thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No matter how nice a mare you find and no matter how nice a stallion you breed her to, you just KNOW the resultant foal is gonna have some pretty big shoes to fill (Uncle Rio's!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I wish you good luck in your quest and if I hear of anything that might suit you I'll surely let you know. I often find great mares at bargain prices and I've got my barn full at the moment http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

showjumpers66 - you're good! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

A mare needs a good home, therefor we should breed her? RIDE her, don't BREED her.

Like I said, I would NOT comment on a horse someone OWNED.

Did the OP want opinions or just a rubber stamp?

I am NOT saying anything about the horses you OWN!

Selecting mares that can breed to my stallion is not practical OR fair to mare owners that may need to switch mares, and don't have twenty available for the stallion owner to choose from.

[showjumpers66]

Margie (http://www.equinehits.com/Horses_for_Sale/Thoroughbred_Mare_for_Sale_California__29362)

Sunny's Halo mare (http://www.equinehits.com/Horses_for_Sale/Thoroughbred_Mare_for_Sale_Manitoba__34870)

CHECK THIS ONE OUT (http://www.equinehits.com/Horses_for_Sale/Thoroughbred_Mare_for_Sale_Washington__33229)

hunter (http://www.equinehits.com/Horses_for_Sale/Thoroughbred_Mare_for_Sale_Texas__27900)

[Daydream Believer]

Bummer than most of those nice mares Showjumper posted are way out west. Got to consider what shipping them here will cost as well a a plane ticket to go see them. I really liked all of them better compared to the Canter mares too.

I also have to second someone's recommendation to start going to sales and seeing what you can find there. My neighbor bought an impeccably bred (Mr Prospector) 6 year old mare that had been raced before that was showing hunters, nice big girl for less than $2,000 at the Virginia Hunter and Sport horse sale this spring. I think there were maybe 10 to 15 JC mares in that sale and they all went dirt cheap and many were rideable. Doesn't Timonium in MD have some winter sales? I think the first sport horse sale in VA is in March...still time to get a mare and get her in foal for a next season baby.

[Oakstable]

Showjumper, lots of lovely mares out there for sale. Glad my place is full so I can't be tempted. Land is pretty dear in SoCal. If I lived on acreage in other states, yipes.

The cost of hay here also keeps us in line.

Someone mentioned in this thread about getting an older WB mare. I did that after a number of TB mares. My two Dutch mares are out of an imported Star mare that I bought for $3500 at the age of 17. That was 10 years ago.

And I bought a lovely Hanoverian mare who was imported as a yearling for $15,000 a LONG time ago. The only filly she had for me was sold to Stonecrop Farm on the other side of the country from CA. I thought my mare would have another filly but she quit before I got a filly to keep for myself.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Astraled:
JB, have you thought of looking for older mares? Since you have space for a companion, you might be able to land a really special older lady with a few breeding years left in return for retiring her. It's usually the best way to start a breeding program out on the right foot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would consider something older than 3 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but not older than, say, 12. It may be a couple of years before I get around to breeding and I'd hate to start breeding the mare at 18 or something like that. Even if she was a proven broodmare, if she had several years off and started back "older", I'd prefer not to add age into the already terrifying journey for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Ashemont]

Keep looking. Perhaps you can find a serviceably sound ex-show horse at a reasonable price. I just got a lovely 7 year old Holsteiner mare - good conformation, mind, temperament and wonderful pedigree. She had a solid performance record but injured a tendon. She'll return to riding soundness with proper care for the next 6 months. She'll be a perfect mount for my daughter, who only pleasure rides, and in the meantime I'll be able to get a few nice foals out of her.

A lot of times the owners of such mares are far more interested in getting a good home for their 'baby' than anything else. In my case the owner was paying board on a horse she couldn't use. She wanted the horse to have a good home yet she needed to get out from under the expense of keeping a non-rideable horse and so I got a bargain.

JB the way you care for your horses and the type of home you would provide would weigh heavily in your favor in a case like this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[amdfarm]

And not that anyone asked, but it will give you an idea about how different we all are in our views. On page 3, showjumper posted photos of "better" mares for under $1500. Well out of all of them, I only liked "cute mare" as a breeding prospect. I didn't look at the others on this page.

[Tom King]

amdfarm, I agree. Even with Cute Mare it's a bit deceptive with the way she's standing in the photo. Notice her feet placement.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The point was not that the mares showjumpers66 found were perfect prospects, but that given a few seconds she could find ones that were better than #1 and #2. IMO it would be hard to find mares WORSE than #1 and #2 for a BREEDING prospect

[amdfarm]

Thanks, Tom. That last mare looks like a quarter horse. I gave the "cute mare" the benefit of the doubt based on one photo.

Darlyn... I would have considered most of them worse than #2 and right up there w/ 1. I like #2 and see potential based on that one photo and that was before I knew her age. Granted there are more things to consider like disposition and movement, which I don't discount, I just can't see that.

Again, we view things differently.

[Tom King]

I'm certainly not trying to argue that any mare presented on this thread-and I haven't looked at the personal examples presented so am not commenting on those at all-would be a suitable breeding horse. I'm just trying to provide some of the over a thousand people who have looked at this thread maybe a different slant on judging horses.

My wife teaches Judges Education Clinics to AKC judges which are all on conformation and movement. Some might say that judging dogs doesn't have anything to do with judging horses but there are many similarities. If you can judge conformation and movement(in great detail) of a 10 pound long-haired dog, horse conformation just jumps right out at you. Pam even uses some pictures of horses with lines drawn on them as examples and they are useful. We spend a lot of time discussing how to better teach these clinics. Being analytical has proven to be the quickest route. For instance for our breed of dogs the ideal shoulder angle, as stated in the breed standard, is considered 35 degrees. No judge we have found knew what exactly was a 35 degree layback. I made a little tool that could be set up beside a dog and set to tell exactly(or pretty daggone close)what the layback is. Everyone wanted one but I already have a too long to-do list so I found the angle-finder at Lowes and now you will see lots of toy dog people with those in their kits. Once the judges,or breeders or any other concerned folks, have their hands on a dog with a 35, or 30, or 25, or whatever angle shoulder it's easy to remember after that.

It seems like most folks judge horse conformation on assumption, wishful thinking, or what they overheard someone say. Also so much has been passed down in a language that only those who know can understand. Terms like-well set on neck, good length of rein, too straight this or that, too long this or that. It took me a long time to understand what the hell any of that sort of terminology meant and some breed standards are still full of it.

On breeding TB mares in general. I agree with whoever said that too many people do it because it's cheap and some registries accept TB mares for inspection with no more knowledge than that as a basis. And that is a big part of the problem with how horse breeding in this country is perceived from outside. Every year at inspections some of these folks show up with absolutely no idea what they have, get angry when they find out, and blame it on the registry or the inspectors.

Personally I have been looking for TB mares to breed for a number of years without finding what I'm looking for. There are untold numbers(I'm sure I've looked at thousands) available for little or nothing which I don't need to look long at-as the mares on this thread. The ones I would like to have are not for sale at any price. It's not hard to find a good WB mare for $25,000 but TB's are either 1500 bucks or priceless. I haven't quit looking though.

[Sannois]

Ohhhh I'll take Tessa! Looks like a nice event prospect! and I am not one for mares! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Why does everyone think if you own a mare you have to breed it. UGH its almost like the dog world. I bred 2 mares and had one baby. That was enough for me! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like mare #2 would not give #1 more than a glance.

[showjumpers66]

Thanks, Fairview. That was exactly my point! amdfarm, I understand your viewpoint is different. That is fine.

Tom King, I am sure that there are many of us that are horse/dog people. Showing dogs, did give me a strong foundation in judging conformation.

Although, I strongly feel that conformation is more than just correct angles. Type and presence can not be judged by angles. Both are very important when trying to predict talent. There are some faults that are more forgivable than others. A long and/or weak loin makes collection difficult. A very low neck set and/or downhill build creates a heavy forehand. A too heavily muscled horse lacks elasticity and flexion (muscle and fat are not the same). A poor saddle position is host to sore backs and poor fitting saddles. All are faults that I do not want in any of my mares. A shorter backed horse may not be as scopey, but is a much better amateur ride.

We have all seen the "close-to-perfect" be out performed by the "far-from-perfect", but with broodmares, we need to stick with the closer-to-perfect variety to ensure longevity and soundness.

[sketcher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
The point was not that the mares showjumpers66 found were perfect prospects, but that given a few seconds she could find ones that were better than #1 and #2. IMO it would be hard to find mares WORSE than #1 and #2 for a BREEDING prospect <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree. And althugh photo's can do a great disservice, I don't think any amount of conditioning and photographic imporvement will make either of those two mares breeding quality.
I hope they find nice homes as I'm sure they ar erobably nice, sweet horses but they shouldn't reproduce.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Although, I strongly feel that conformation is more than just correct angles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. Since no horse is perfect, developing an "eye" is critical because faults need to blend to create an overall "balance", and athletic ability. You can have a horse that is 95% perfect "by the numbers" and their difference makes them "not work". A balanced horse, with a body that blends and works together, will be much more likely to produce a horse that does not have an exteme in it's conformation that hinders it's athletic ability.

[amdfarm]

Ultimately, the is JB's decision and hope she finds a good horse to ride and breed in the future.

We're in an agree to disagree world and it's never going to change. I like what I like and others like what they like. We're not all breeding the same thing, but strive to get that same sound and sane type and keep improving on it. Best (no such thing) plus best doesn't always equal best. I feel more people need to be open-minded, because in the end, we're all looking for that same result, even if we take a different path to achieve it.

Lisa

[Tom King]

Yes of course, horse conformation classes, and I feel like inspections too, are typically judged 30% angles and proportions, 60% movement,and 10% overall impression. Although I think that overall impression is definately more of a make or break than 10%. After all k far too many people are willing to just overlook the angles and proportions for some other criteria that they may think will override any shortcomings there. This is quite acceptable for a riding horse but not for a breeding horse. And this is not just my opinion. I've seen it written by those who have studied the history of the subject and heard it said by more than a few whose profession is this subject that: Just because an individual horse is able to overcome some conformational shortcomings it should not be used as a basis to say that this horse has much of a chance to have offspring who will repeat this performance. In short, the percentages are with the properly conformed.

I don't know why this word-processor on the reply sometimes will not insert corrections.

The screwed up part should read, After all movement is what we want. I think far to many people.....

I don't feel like I'm trying to argue with anyone here but do hope that maybe one person reading this thread has gotten something out of it.

[amdfarm]

I certainly don't disclude angles and proportions when looking at a horse, especially when you can't see the whole package.

Many times movement cancels out a horse's shortcomings in the conformation department if not a serious fault and can be improved on w/ the right stallion. If you look at all the threads about finding the right stallion for my mare, you often see a list of things that could be improved on due to the mare's shortcomings.

There are exceptions to every rule.

I've enjoyed this tread.

L.

[Sannois]

I'm sure this has been stated but I havent read everything. To me the reason for correct conformation is ultimatly soundness in performance! Right?? MAny Many years ago a vet who I had a high regard for and specialized in reproductive services told me you better have a mare who has ALL the right traits and qualities because the stallion no matter how nice is not going to correct flaws in the mare! I believe that to be true.

[JB]

This is turning into an interesting, informative thread! I think this is the longest one I've ever started here! Ever! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[JB]

Ok, for comparison sake, what do you think about this one (http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/PassionateTalk-2.jpg)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Much better. Still a low set neck, but much better balance. Her shoulder angle, wither placement would look much better if the photo was taken from the other side.

[JB]

You mean this side? (http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/PassionateTalk-1.jpg)

[Maggie Mae]

I like this one better too... just not sure about how much heel she has... looks better from the left than from the right. It's always so hard to tell from pics!!

[Fairview Horse Center]

haha, yes. When they get the leg back, it really takes away the shoulder angle.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maggie Mae:
just not sure about how much heel she has... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, heel doesn't worry me at all. Sooooo many OTTBs are kept with looooong toe and looooow underrunnnnn heel. I actually think her front feet look better than her hind feet, which is unusual.

[Fairview Horse Center]

She is definitely in need of some farrier work. Have the vet really check out those ankles for riding soundness.

[showjumpers66]

Yes, much better mare. No, she is not perfect, but she is a much better horse than the first two. And, this is a mare that will look much better with more weight. With her shoulder conformation, I would expect her to be lacking a bit in reach. Her neck will look much better with weight and I bet she has a very nice hind end. Cute expression and nice type.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
She is definitely in need of some farrier work. Have the vet really check out those ankles for riding soundness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were to go for her, I wouldn't spend the $$ on a soundness vet check. If she's riding sound that's a bonus http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JB]

Wanted to say something to showjumper that I was going to PT, but thought it would have more impact to say it here.

I know we haven't always seen eye to eye on things - there have been 1 or 2 threads where I have REALLY disagreed with things you have said, BUT... I did want to say that I admire you for saying what you think and sticking to your guns. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not, but you have your reasons for feeling the way you do, and it takes a strong person to not let the majority sway you. I may not still agree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but at least I admire you for taking your stand http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And, please keep me in mind if you do really know of any mares that fit my criteria, as you mentioned in an earlier post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

So, is she on her way? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
So, is she on her way? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*snort*

I am the queen of procrastination! The Queen of indecisiveness! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I actually had someone PT me with an empty stall on the trailer coming from the Mid-Atlantic area through my area and did I want to put something on it? UGH! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
IMO it would be hard to find mares WORSE than #1 and #2 for a BREEDING prospect <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

congrats Fairview, thats one of the rudest things i've ever read on this board.

So, you see an unbalanced horse, fine. You certainly dont have to TRASH IT!. Might i remind the huddled masses, YET A-FRIGGEN-Gen, that it is ONE stupid picture!

I'm curious, now that you've gone and taken some conformation classes and have learned so much, are all of *your* mares up to snuff?

Some folks absolutely AMAZE me.

JB, please take these pictures down. i'm tired of people BASHING animals who only want someone to love them. Critique, fine. But take the bashing elsewhere.
These are MY girls, donated to MY program and probably have better manners than most folks have in all of their horses. They are beautiful and sweet and deserve better than rude comments. Breedworthy? Maybe, maybe not. But they dont deserve this kind of crap.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
JB, please take these pictures down. i'm tired of people BASHING animals who only want someone to love them. Critique, fine. But take the bashing elsewhere.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Done. I was pondering how to react to that statement and didn't think of this action, but you're right, there was no reason to make a statement like that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Lianne]

I will throw in my two cents here, food for thought. And this goes for everyone, not just the OP. I will not comment on the mares, but simply say this :
Say you own a nice, branded, inspected Hanoverian or KWPN mare, and you want to breed her. Would you consider an off-the-track, possibly broken down, underweight TB stallion?

If the honest answer is *no* or *probably not*, then why do the reverse? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

This is not meant to start anything, it's just something that popped into my head after reading through this entire thread... But it might be totally irrelevant if the OP never intended to breed to a WB stallion.. Oh well, just my idle musings.

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
I will throw in my two cents here, food for thought. And this goes for everyone, not just the OP. I will not comment on the mares, but simply say this :
Say you own a nice, branded, inspected Hanoverian or KWPN mare, and you want to breed her. Would you consider an off-the-track, possibly broken down, underweight TB stallion?

If the honest answer is *no* or *probably not*, then why do the reverse? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

This is not meant to start anything, it's just something that popped into my head after reading through this entire thread... But it might be totally irrelevant if the OP never intended to breed to a WB stallion.. Oh well, just my idle musings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well speaking for myself, if I had a Warmblood mare I would be the first in line to breed to Yavari or Coconut Grove for jumpers or A Fine Romance for a hunter. Yavari raced, broke down and then jumped Internationally with plates in his ankles. That horse is tough, a quality that I hold in high regard http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I've been amazed at the people that seem to "forget" that a lot of the "legends" in Warmblood breeding are T'breds - horses like Ladykiller, Furioso, Rantzau, Ramzes and Cottage Son should be enough to remind people that yes, the T'bred does have it's place in Warmblood breeding, very frequently as the sire of legends http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

They are sweet horses to love. Don't ask for an opinion that you don't want. I wish I would learn that anyone asking for an opinion of horses they are looking at really just wants someone to ooohhhh and aaaahhhh, not an actual critique.

Yes, I have been Extremely picky of the horses that are included in my breeding program. I DO want to eliminate as much as possible the chance of bringing a foal into this world that may end up in a meat auction. I take that VERY seriously. I have a filly right now that was the #1 filly in the US for the American Warmblood Society. She was also 1.2% behind the USDF 2 Year Old Horse of the Year in the Hanoverian class at Devon, while beating several of the youngsters that qualified for the Cosequin East Coast Breeders Championships. I am watching her to SEE if maybe she is good enough to be bred.

There are OUTSTANDING Thoroughbred mares in this country, but they are a small percentage. Many Warmblood mares should not be bred either.

If you intend to provide a home for the resulting foal for the rest of it's life, then it is not an issue.

[ailis36]

Fairview Horse Center said "Many Warmblood mares should not be bred either."

Finally a statement I agree with...I just wish more breeders on this board would follow their own advice....

[showjumpers66]

Thanks, JB! This has actually been a good thread ... we have been discussing our opinions without arguing and in this format, it is educational.

FairWeather, please do not take it personally. I am sure the mares will both make nice mounts.

JB, you may be the queen of procrastination, but I am the queen of impulse!

[amdfarm]

Wow, look what I've missed.

JB, yes I like the third mare you just added better than the other two. How old is this one? I agree about her feet, as well, but that is hindsight.

L.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Say you own a nice, branded, inspected Hanoverian or KWPN mare, and you want to breed her. Would you consider an off-the-track, possibly broken down, underweight TB stallion?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif OTTB by itself wouldn't turn me off at all. Broken down wouldn't turn me off depending on the reason - if it was because he was raced heavily as a 2 and 3yo and was 16.2 at that age and it wasn't conformational issues that did it, then that would not turn me off. Underweight wouldn't turn me off. And I'm not sure I follow your thinking of "it might be totally irrelevant if the OP never intended to breed to a WB stallion" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Just because she's a OTTB mare means I shouldn't consider a WB stallion? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
I wish I would learn that anyone asking for an opinion of horses they are looking at really just wants someone to ooohhhh and aaaahhhh, not an actual critique.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was asking for an honest critique, not a stamp of approval, truly. I think we are all just agreeing that the statement "it would be hard to find mares WORSE" than these 2 was not something that should have been said. There are many FAR worse mares that are being bred in the TB and QH world, just because they have a uterus and there happens to be a stallion nearby (who also has no business reproducing), where there are no standards by which to approve them for breeding. FAR worse. These mares obviously would not be part of your program, for the reasons you stated, and that's fine, but they are far from butt-ugly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[amdfarm]

Ditto, JB. I was thinking that exact thing then forgot to comment. A lot of variables there.

[okggo]

Awww JB that chestnut reminds me so much of my girl - sniff. Therefore you must BUY her http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

So are you going to get a CANTER cutie or just dangle the carrot in front of our noses? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lianne]

JB - I meant my reversal scenario of the situation would be irrelevant if you intended to breed these mares to, for example, your friend's QH/Percheron stallion from down the road for a nice, sweet foal for yourself (please don't get offended, lots of people do this).
That's all I meant!

[JB]

Lianne - gotcha http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[FairWeather]

As I said before, Critiques are fine. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, and I make sure to not get offended by critiques. However, I find it pathetic that someone would go above and beyond to bash not only a single horse, but pretty much an entire breed.
I wonder how many people who say there are very few TB's worth breeding to their precious warmbloods actually put their money where their mouths are and turn away unsuitable broodmares from their breeding program? How many did you turn away last year? Must have been plenty if any TB mares 'applied'.
I'm sort of blown away at your comments Fairview, because i've always seen posts from you that were thoughtful and thought-provoking, but never rude. I'm wondering if your class in conformation has turned you into a classic breed snob? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
I've always admired your stallions, and have considered them for my own TB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif *gasp* http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifmare. Thank god I know better than to dare introduce a lowly TB for consideration in your breeding program. By your own statements only a very few TB mares are worthy of reproducing. Nice job on alienating a good percentage of the breeding population. I'm wondering what the point of having a stallion who 'improves' on mares if mares have to be perfect anyhow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[LuvTheDutch]

Man I wish I had a pic of my OTTB when I rescued her from Charlestown ... But, I'm definately interested in seeing what it thought of her ... I will go out later today with my camera and get a confo pic of her ... By the sounds of what is thought to be the "perfect" broodmare, my girl would definately never have been purchased as a broodmare... However, if there were PERFECT broodmares, then we wouldn't have to go look for stallions to improve on certain qualities now would we? If only we could live in a perfect world ... I only wanna see what is thought of my girl to prove that not all mares have to be perfect to throw nice foals ... Her first foal is a beautiful chestnut filly by Consul that went first premium @ her NA/WPN inspection and was pinned 2nd in her class, right behind the colt that went on to be best young horse of the day ... If she had stretched out a little more @ her trot, she may very well have been in the top 10 of that day's inspection ... Either way, I have a beautiful filly with an amazing disposition, out of a TB mare that I know would have been passed off as not breeding worthy by a few people ...

[Yowsa]

A comment can be made re a horse without degrading and destroying it. I've noticed time and time again how these threads go south. Somebody makes a less than tactfully thought-out comment about a horse, somebody takes offense, and then the comment inevitably gets made "if you don't want an honest critique don't post the pic." It's like deja vu over and over.

But where people seem to be missing the boat (from my seat in lurker mode anyway) is that it's not the negative comment about the horse that gets people upset- it's the WAY the comment is made. You can say "I'm sure this would make a nice pleasure horse, but for breeding I would be concerned about x,y, and z" or you can say "don't ever breed that piece of trash." (Granted I'm exaggerating to get the point across). The reaction to those 2 statements, though a similar point, will be totally different.

As with spoken language- think before you type. There are people behind these screens and some of them have feelings.

Now, while I don't have a dog or pony in this show- I hate to see yet another thread hit bottom b/c of a poorly phrased comment.

[showjumpers66]

I am not bashing the use of TB mares as part of a sporthorse breeding program, but there are too many inferior (based on sporthorse standards) TB mares being introduced into sporthorse breeding. There are so many TB mares out there, that you should not have to settle for a below average mare. It is one thing if the mare has sentimental value and is having a foal(s) that will be a permanent resident of the breeder versus someone who is wanting a mare to be a career broodmare.

Sometimes you will get lucky and have a nice foal(s), sometimes not. Personally, some of the nicest foals I have ever seen have been F1 crosses, but to perfectly honest these foals overall as a whole do not hold a candle to the consistancy of quality seen in the Texas Holsteiner breeders' (Hans deGroot, October Hill, Wah Kon Tah) foals. Their breeding programs are so successful because they have an absolutely incredible group of mares.

If you are going to buy for breeding, then you should buy the very best mare that you can afford rather than buying a mare to rescue her or give her a home. This does not mean that you need to find perfection, but rather a mare who has faults which would not be an issue when passed on to her foals.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Like I said, I never comment on a horse someone already owns.

I think there are FEW of EVERY breed that should be bred, but you won't "hear" that because I commented on a TB. I do NOT believe you should breed it because it needs a job. I didn't trash the mare. I said with her faults, most TB mares would make better breeding candidates. (Worded differently) I am sorry you presented this mare to JB as being a super broodmare candidate. In my opinion, she is not a broodmare candidate. She may make a nice riding horse.

The rule of breeding is to choose a horse that you would like a foal exactly like the parent. Then you cross with a horse to improve the less than stellar parts, and hope for the best KNOWING that you could end up with exactly what you have. My stallion ALWAYS improves the mares- A LOT, but you can't expect ANY stallion to recreate the horse. A breeder is a mare owner that is making a HUGE decision in bringing a life into the world that they alone are responsible for. I take that very seriously.

Responsible breeding. Are you the same people that would be unloading on someone that adopted a dog from an animal shelter and wanted to bred it? Should they breed any papered dog, like a puppy mill?

There are MANY TB mares that WILL make good broodmare possibles.

OK, my question. Why do you guys think ALL mares, and especially all Registered JC mares bred with RACING qualities will make good riding/sporthorse broodmares?

[Fairview Horse Center]

And Fairweather. I understand that what upset you the most is not that I made that comment about the mare, but that the comment directly embarrassed you because of your personal recomendation to JB. I apologize. I did not mean to embarrass you.

[FairWeather]

Funny. Add a "Bless your heart" to that post and you have the most perfect ass-backwards apology ever found on this site.
Your comments were rude. End of story. You didnt embarrass me, you pissed me off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am sorry you presented this mare to JB as being a super broodmare candidate <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Psychic now are we? Funny. I dont recall ever saying anything was a "super" broodmare candidate. I call em like I see em.

Ask anybody who has ever asked me about any horse EVER and see what they tell you about my 'recommendations'.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Point out to me where someone stated that ALL mares should be bred?
Its funny, because I have 15 emails from people all over the country who want this mare to...... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif breed!!. This isnt a rescue, this isnt a sad story. This isnt a horse who needs 'saving'. She can live here until she finds the perfect home. Save the rhetoric, will ya http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Breed Bigots. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Galileo1998]

Call me crazy but I really, really liked mare #2 as a HUNTER broodmare, I'm just not sure if that's what you're aiming for JB. Maybe some of the people that don't like her much just aren't thinking about hunter types?

[JB]

Whoa, wait a minute, where did anyone get the idea Fairweather presented this horse to me as a broodmare prospect, much less a "super" one? She knew from a thread a couple of weeks ago that I was looking for a companion horse, would like it to be a broodmare prospect, and started showing me mares she JUST got. Who is she to weed out prospects for me? She shows them to me, I like or don't like. She was even kind enough to spend some focused time watching one of the mares and reported back to me her shortcomings which are MUCH easier to see in person, as are the good qualities. She is not throwing these mares down my throat.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galileo1998:
Call me crazy but I really, really liked mare #2 as a HUNTER broodmare, I'm just not sure if that's what you're aiming for JB. Maybe some of the people that don't like her much just aren't thinking about hunter types? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hunter broodmare, exactly what I'm after http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[caryledee]

I'm with Galileo...I still like #2 as a hunter broodmare. I know the warmblood breeders see things a little differently, but if you are looking to breed a hunter prospect, she would be my pick.

[okggo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
OK, my question. Why do you guys think ALL mares, and especially all Registered JC mares bred with RACING qualities will make good riding/sporthorse broodmares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly don't think ALL TB mares make good riding/sporthorse broodmares, but I do think TBs are bred to be intrinsically athletic. That gives you a great base to start with- THEN if the rest of the package is there (i.e. mind, movement, etc) you could have a good broodmare prospect.

I am fond of the TB b/c I like their endurance, their athleticism, their sensitivity, I could go on and on. That's not to say I think every TB mare should be bred, though. But I firmly believe they have the spirit, heart, and athleticism to make a great sporthorse baby- given they don't have some major flaw that could be passed down. Look at the Irish Draught Sport Horse- it combines the blood of the Thoroughbred with the Irish Draught. Why the TB? B/C of all the traits I mentioned before and generations of producing fabulous jumpers, hunters, eventers, etc. etc. etc.

[Moesha]

JB....you need to get one of the Zebra mares I emailed you a picture of ...and we can take her to Europe to breed her to a REAL..."German Warmblood." Not one fo these dimestore american wannabe not even recognized by Europe one's.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
JB....you need to get one of the Zebra mares I emailed you a picture of ...and we can take her to Europe to breed her to a REAL..."German Warmblood." Not one fo these dimestore american wannabe not even recognized by Europe one's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's IT! What an ingenious plan! Got yer passport? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

I also like the TB breed for all of the qualities okggo named.

I am a breed snob. That is why I have both personally bought, and found others to buy PMU youngsters, TB horses from tracks and auctions that I thought were nice horses and deserved a good home. The ones I have bought personally, I sold at a loss or gave away (I kept one for my own personal horse). My purpose was to get them into a good permanent home. I am also very pleased with Nevada's over 50% TB lines. I am definitely a person that deserves the breed snob label.

[Moesha]

I think the Kenyan Government has a copy of it, I'll call my friend who breeds puissance baboons and see if he can pull some strings to get it released....the Kenyans are very strict in their breeding standards and only allow approved stallions of other breeds to be bred to the foundation Zebra mares.

[FairWeather]

Fairview, you musnt forget rude, condescending, assumptive and prone to making up theories to suit you.

[Delighted]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Like I said, I never comment on a horse someone already owns.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, someone DOES own them - FairWeather/Canter Mid Atlantic owns them. Before that, someone else owned them - a race trainer/owner. And before that, someone owned them again - a breeding farm. So, that logic doesn't quite hang with me.. but, I breed Appaloosas, so of course you're going to have to use small words, speak slowly, and repeat yourself frequently.

Saying, "Well, they're 'rescues,' she doesn't really OWN them," (if I can put on the Psychic Pants for a moment) won't work. First - these horses aren't rescued. They're not "Saved!" from the horrors of racing - they're just switched from one job to the next. And to say that, just because these are Canter horses that no one loves them/cares about them/it's open season on the TBs? HAHAHAH.. FW cares so much about these horses.. it's fantastic. It gives me warm fuzzies to hear about it. She spent hours playing with my new horse the other day, she said, just because he's cute and she loves them. She actually cares about these horses - so, unless it's open season on EVERYone's horses online, why are we picking on these?

But, again, I breed Apps. You know, the breed that everyone starts out with, "Ew, I hate appaloosas.." so I'm not a big fan of anyone hatin' on a horse.

[Fairview Horse Center]

yep, that's me - I'm known for it

[Fairview Horse Center]

The OP was posting photos of horses she did not own. I responded to her.

[Delighted]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
The OP was posting photos of horses she did not own. I responded to her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you don't see the problem there? If I went to your site, and took two photos of horses you're selling, and posted those - and people posted crap like this about them. And then you came online, and saw these horses that you absolutely adore, and have put time and money and everything you have into, and see that people are ripping them to shreds? Don't see that overlay? It just ain't cool, to do that to anyone's horse.

Then, to generalize and make blanket statements about the breed at large.. Do you see how that might be annoying, if we switch the example into your home court?

[LuvTheDutch]

To stand up for myself, I have to say that my mare has movement, tempermant, solid and sane mind, great feet, a nice shoulder, decently put together back/loins, and a nice hind end that if she was in regular work would look amazing muscled ... I never meant to imply that she is not "up to broodmare standards" just because I rescued her and gave her a home ... I simply meant that she is not up to "everyone's" standards as to what a broodmare should be (bloodlines, breed, what have you) ... I actually have taken 2 TB mares that would've been passed over by others and been blessed with a wonderful TB/DW gelding that is fancy and will clean up in Adult Hunters and Sidesaddle, a TB/Welsh gelding that is beyond fancy but grew too stinkin much but more bold and brave than one could ask for with amazing jumping talent that is going to clean up in the eventing field, and now a NA/WPN filly who's future is still to be seen ... As well as an appendix mare that I bred to a world champion QH stallion and got a replica of the stallion ...

I never meant for anyone to feel that I breed mares who should not be bred ... I simply meant that I breed mares that others may overlook because I go for tempermant and mind to produce nice suitable sporthorses and not ones who have bloodlines pouring out of them that are looney and unable to be handled ... Anyhows, I'm gonna leave it at that ...

[Fairview Horse Center]

You mean Apps, like the only horse of mine that doesn't lose his stall? At 29 1/2, he deserves to not get moved around. I have one of my "prize" broodmares and her foal in a tiny stall so he can live in the luxury palace http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Yep, he's an Appy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Delighted. I agree. It is why I will never comment on any horse again. I believed she was posting photos of canter horses that the owners don't care what sport people think of them - my mistake. I broke my rule of not commenting, and it was a mistake. You can NEVER not hurt someone's feelings posting negative things about a horse that has become a "personal" one without hurting their feelings - no matter how tactful these comments are made.

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
IMO it would be hard to find mares WORSE than #1 and #2 for a BREEDING prospect <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rude.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am sorry you presented this mare to JB as being a super broodmare candidate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
assumptive

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why do you guys think ALL mares, and especially all Registered JC mares bred with RACING qualities will make good riding/sporthorse broodmares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
assumptive

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And Fairweather. I understand that what upset you the most is not that I made that comment about the mare, but that the comment directly embarrassed you because of your personal recomendation to JB. I apologize. I did not mean to embarrass you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
condescending

You did a good job in my eyes. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

[JB]

Fairview, it's NOT about making negative comments. I posted the mare (with Fairweather's permission since she took the pics and the mares are in her posession) to get honest critiques. While I didn't agree with your particular critique, it was your opinion based on your experiences and what you would or wouldn't have in your breeding program. Not a problem at all. The critiquing took a turn downhill with the comment "it would be hard to find mares WORSE" than these to breed. They may not be prime specimens but even to my unprofessional eye there are FAR worse mares out there AND they are breeding.

[Karosel]

Ive found an interesting thread (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=324200734) We should all have a read. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Lianne]

*breaks out the Ferrero-Rocher chocolates*

Come on guys, can't we be nice? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Silly Mommy]

When a breeder PRODUCES something that jumps like this:

Sweetie (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAAAADsW0jlcNmMHgGwDtFnOxnlRm9X987Xu3Fww4h5Pveafm e9K2FcUQsx6QzTQPTQNmE8QvbByxvhp9eCzcApRPpr0F9RGNXp FSbtwLlkAAAAAAAAAAA/SweetLCpro.jpg?dc=4675484751565054798)

or this:

Schuyler (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/skyman.jpg)

or this:

Yak (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RQD5AqYUCc6HkukFI7uoYOWerhLzn4m78rim*xxlIRIn7wLLI F6LavwDGzZkSivGLUTuPMV!N52G!leNcqCqE*95JxR7nbQzsGK o5VeQeiQ/DrewLC2.jpg?dc=4675484751493376566)

or this:

April (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aprilbgjmp.jpg)

or rescues a mistreated TB mare out in a field with 20 others with neglected feet $300lbs underweight, and just on a gut feeling discovers that she jumps like this:

Sidney (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/sidney3.jpg.w300h351.jpg)

Then I'll take anything they say seriously. If they breed for dressage or are a strictly foal mill type scenario, then I don't have time. I breed for ones that can be ridden not inspected.

edited to add - there is nothing wrong with breeding for dressage - just no my bag o' chips and we look for different attributes in a potential breeding prospect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Astraled]

Kumbaya?

[Oakstable]

This is an interesting thread for what has been said and has not been said. Notice that there have been 136 posts but 3,147 views? Are we standing around looking at an accident on the freeway or a burning house?

There are probably others like me who want to say something, then think better of it.

I have no interest in saying anything hurtful. However, two of the most critical women in this thread stand stallions and I bet dollars to doughnuts that they have bred to mares just like the ones that have been critiqued. Actually, they were trashed. A critique was invited, not a trashing.

I have never seen Hilltop nor Rainbow Equus nor Iron Spring Farm wade into the frey on what mares are deserving to be mothers or not.

I am baffled at the energy in the criticisms.

We don't have Canter organizations in my area but I am truly impressed with the women who are working hard to find new careers for TBs that someone had dreams for.

One of my very first TB mares was jet black, but in hindsight, she had a hammer head and a goose rump. Her only foal for me is still in his original home and dearly loved. I sold the mare to a teenager for a riding horse.

It'll be interesting to see which mare JB ends up with, but I'd think twice about posting her here.

Sally

[amdfarm]

Might I quickly refer to Erin's sticky... be nice, be respectful, be polite.

All Fairview had to say was what she originally posted on the first page.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I agree. I'd pass on both. The 2nd mare is totally out of body balance with her shoulder to withers being very large, and her back, and hindquarter being short. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When someone asks for an opinion, even if you don't like it, show some tact and think before you type. JB seems very open-minded and very aware that not everyone will like what she's presenting, but that also doesn't mean we all have to agree either.

[Iluvgoldies]

JB, Good idea to take the orginal pictures down.

Nowww, the third mare you posted about, she is quite a looker and can you imagine some more weight on her?

[Astraled]

Finger Lakes Filly (http://exforg.proboards32.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1100048184)

What about this girl? She needs the usual loving on but she's very smooth-bodied and elegant. I think her neck shape will improve.

[Albion]

I have to admit, I have to giggle with the idea that race bred TBs are not appropriate for sport horse breeding. I don't know if you guys are only looking at the most washed up of mares or ???? - but I worked at a crappy training track & sat on some of the nicest horses I've ever been on. And I've been around some $$$$$ sport horses.

While poking around the web, looking for information on the TB stallion In Case for someone, I found a sale photo of one of the horses I used to gallop at the track. Case In Thought (http://www.acornhillfarm.com/sales/) (2nd one down. Disclaimer: PLEASE do not "critique" or "bash" or whatever this horse. I do not own him. I'm not looking to buy him. I don't need or want a critique of him! And he's a gelding, so no one will be breeding him, whatever you happen to think http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). He was bred to race. Having ridden him (while he was in race training), I can tell you that he's a big, lovely horse with a big, gorgeous stride & a nice engine. If he were a mare, I would be happy to have another one like him. And I hate chrome!

At the crappy training barn, I rode TB fillies and mares that I seriously doubt many (if any) stallion owners here would've turned down as not being "nice enough". One mare named Miss Protege threw the most gorgeous babies - sane heads, athletic, beautiful movement. I saw the results of 3 different crosses (all to racing stallions - Allen's Prospect, Not For Love, and In Case) and they were ALL lovely. My favorite filly, by Gone West out of a Private Account mare, was to die for (bad example, because she would be worth six figures in the breeding shed - but still). This idea that the American, race-bred TB must be crap by default is just silly. Spend some serious time on the backside (or a teeny, tiny training track) and you WILL see wonderful specimins of the breed. A lot of them.

[2Dogs]

wheweeeee -

think we need to set ourselves down for some nice fried chicken, sweet corn and mashed potatoes -

Nothing like a COTH fret! Time to eat!

And don't forget Jeapordy tonight......

[Tin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but, I breed Appaloosas, so of course you're going to have to use small words, speak slowly, and repeat yourself frequently. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JB]

Case In Thought http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I know you said no critiques, so I'll only comment http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Oh, MY!
I would also love to see pictures of the TB mares that the several horses after him are out of. Wow.

[showjumpers66]

I like her. She is very balanced and has the type I look for. It is difficult to judge her neck in the photo, but it looks a little short to me ... something that can be improved upon by the right stallion. I agree that it will improve with work.

Word of caution about one eyed horses. Handle her quite a bit before buying to ensure that she is comfortable with her situation. I had one that would swing her head back and forth constantly to try to see all around while being handled. You had to lead her on her blindside and she became stressed if a person stood in her line of vision. She was a sweet mare, but very difficult to handle.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Astraled:
http://exforg.proboards32.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1100048184

What about this girl? She needs the usual loving on but she's very smooth-bodied and elegant. I think her neck shape will improve. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[okggo]

Albion, I have a filly by In Case- if you are still on your quest for info let me know. She was sired by him while he was at Legacy.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I made 6 polite, descriptive replies in this discussion.

But was accused of not being honest:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> JB, you would be getting a slew of other opinions if you wrote "hey! look at this mare i just bought!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not being competent to judge a thin horse, or maybe just being mean:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For those of you who are unwilling to look past a starved OTTB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being mean to a poor horse:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It would be nice if we could harness the energy that has gone into critiquing a mare who needs a good home into something constructive. The world sure could use it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being a hypocrite:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So the stallion owners on this thread who would not breed this mare, are you screening your breedings by requiring video and photos of the mares before contracting for a breeding? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and telling me to shut up, that I didn't have the right to state my opinion (with maybe an implied bash at my breeding program?):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think that we should start a new policy since we all have our (very different) preferences here.
If you don't breed them, don't critique them.
I could go on a rant on my oppinion of most WB mares <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All of this was being nice? not rude? not condecending?

not leaving me much choice except to either back down from my opinion, or reiterate it stronger. I chose the latter.

[Karosel]

Why dont you guys just drop it already!!! Pretty soon you are going to start pulling each others pigtails!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Edited to add: ahhh I see Fairweather has deleted her post above mine that only had rolling eyes.

[Oakstable]

I agree, Karosel. Maybe this thread needs to be locked to save us from ourselves. You would think the conversation was taking place among men, not women.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Spot]

All I can say is thank God this thread has nothing to do with palomino's, buckskin's, sabino's or any other strangely or wildly coloured horses! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And you guys thought that us coloured breeders got rambunctious at times! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

:Spot:

[mbp]

Fairview - I don't know what it is about this thread, but you are wildly over-reacting.

You had some tb folks who love the creatures, and some hunter breeders who probably have a different take on things than you, who were exposed to statements like yours that "you couldn't find two worse prospects". You are responsible for the tone that set. It is one thing to say (as you started with) neither mare would be my choice bc of xyz (too low a neck, too disproportionate in the shoulder,etc). Another thing to say "you can't find worse".

After you say something that "in your face", it is a bit excessive to then post how put upon you feel by the responses. Particularly responses that don't seem to respond to you specifically or you even remotely. No one used words like shut up. Someone saying that it would be good to harness energy for constructive purposes - that is NOT the same as saying Fairview is mean to horses????????

No one is saying you are dishonest when they say that a thread posting "Hey, look what I just bought" would get very different responses. Even here, even before Erin's posty, it was pretty rare for someone to go out of their way to post nasty things on a "look what I bought" thread and yes, the responses would have been different. You might very well not have responded at all - no one is saying YOU would have gone on that kind of thread and gushed, "Oh, what a lovely sporthorse breeding prospect".

You are personalizing things very disproportionately. Now - imagine that instead of all the indirect or imaginary things you are building up, someone had posted pics of two of yours and said the same thing you said about those mares (you couldn't find two worse). THink how strongly you have felt you had to come out and defend yourself and your breeding program here, where no one IS attacking you. Now think about someone who DOES care about those two mares.

IMO, you really should rethink the "couldn't do worse" comment and also IMO, Fairview is owed an apology. You said something publicly that both she and JB have said is not true and they are the only two that know.

I could post something crappy like, "I know the real reason you are upset is bc people were attacking your stallion's lack of registry options on another thread and you still feel upset . . ." but that would just be rude condescending, inappropriate, nasty etc. and pointless and uninformed. IMO, that's the kind of thing you did to Fairweather and I don't know why you are so quick on this thread to take offense at implied insults, while just smacking all kinds of people upside the head with your own comments. It doesn't seem at all like your normal nice, well thought out, witty, and generally very good and interesting posts.

OTOH, it may be me.

Heck, it's always me!

MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME

[Albion]

okggo, I galloped a number of In Case babies & liked almost all of them, which is all I really needed to know. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I found many of them to be faaaaaaaaancy (Case In Thought being the fanciest of them all. As one of our grooms said, 'Man, can't you just see him stepping up to the ring at WEF? Their jaws would drop!')

JB, Case In Thought was not out of the same dam that the three other babies I referenced were. He's out of an Al Nasr mare, the other three were out of a Brilliant Protege mare. Miss Protege (http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&h=MISS%20PROTEGE2&g=5&inbred=Standard&x2=n&pedloggedin=0) - pedigree. Dunno what it is about that mare, but her babies were exquisite. I rode a 4, 3, and 2 year old of hers & really rode (and loved) the two year old most of all (by Not For Love). Her 3 year old was the very first horse I ever really galloped. I wanted to snatch all three of them up for sport horses!

I never actually saw Miss Protege. Wouldn't it be funny if she had looked like some of these prospects fresh off the track? I'm sorry I don't have pictures of her babies, they really were stunning. Good luck, JB - I'm a big believer in the American TB, for all the faults you see in some of them. There are some truly exquisite race bred horses out there. I've sat on some of them, and while one was by a high dollar stallion, out of an incredibly bred, stakes-winning/producing mare, the rest of them weren't.

I still dream about owning a horse like my Gone West filly one day. She was the most wonderfully laid back two year old, nothing phased her - I could just see her galloping down the hunter lines just la-di-da-di-da. And could she move! And she was quite the looker, too, even at the age of two. And guess what? She was the picture of what you'd want in a sporthorse, and was completely & totally bred for the track. Any person with sense would've been proud to have her in their broodmare band.

[Lisamarie8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
I made 6 polite, descriptive replies in this discussion.

*snip*

not leaving me much choice except to either back down from my opinion, or reiterate it stronger. I chose the latter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FHC, you have this uncanny ability to come off being sane and so NOT catty, but in the few other instances (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=2096094911&m=8396097421&p=1) where the ability to think rationally and use a smidgen of common courtesy and social grace have arisen, you seem to have been lacking. (Granted you deleted some of your posts in the referenced post)

I have known FW for a good length of time; she is one of the most level headed, even minded, forgiving and nonjudgmental people i have ever met. IF you upset her enough to get her to actually SAY something, let me tell you, you did SOMETHING.

That's all I'm saying. You have not been unfairly pegged here.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> After you say something that "in your face", <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted this AFTER:
"The point was not that the mares showjumpers66 found were perfect prospects, but that given a few seconds she could find ones that were better than #1 and #2. IMO it would be hard to find mares WORSE than #1 and #2 for a BREEDING prospect "

My post was AFTER the above that I considered attacks on my credibility, NOT before.

[Fairview Horse Center]

As I said previously, I would have never commented at all if JB had already owned the horse. And as I stated before, I "believed" incorrectly that it was a canter horse that the racing trainer/owner wouldn't care at all about a sporthorse breeders opinion of the mare's sporthorse breeding potential. My mistake. I would have never commented at ALL.

I was also wrong that she had told JB it was a super broodmare prospect. Only a broodmare prospect, of which I disagree.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oakstable:
Maybe this thread needs to be locked to save us from ourselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm tryin'!

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
I was also wrong that she had told JB it was a super broodmare prospect. Only a broodmare prospect, of which I disagree. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh for Pete's sake, she didn't even tell me she/they/it/him/them were broodmare prospects! She said "I just got these mares in, wanna see them?" You disagree, fine. So do others. Leave it at that please.

[Karosel]

WOW! How soon people forget Erins warnings!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oakstable:
Maybe this thread needs to be locked to save us from ourselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm tryin'! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You go to edit your intial post and then click on the lock on the right.

[JB]

I see an option to close the topic, but it's ghosted out so I can't click it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I have let Erin know I'd like to lock this though. I'd rather not delete it as there have been SOME good discussions and comments.

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
I see an option to close the topic, but it's ghosted out so I can't click it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I have let Erin know I'd like to lock this though. I'd rather not delete it as there have been SOME good discussions and comments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats strange! I just sent an alert for your last post to Erin saying how you wanted the thread closed etc. So maybe she will see it faster and close the thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Erin]

Sorry, been away from the computer all afternoon...

Closed, at the request of the original poster.