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intothewest
Nov. 17, 2010, 04:44 PM
Anyone else catch the cross entering in classes at VHSA finals last weekend? Why have even have the rules?

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 17, 2010, 06:44 PM
Specifics?

intothewest
Nov. 17, 2010, 08:00 PM
same kid in eq and ss. Pony crossed entered....

adult/amature
Nov. 17, 2010, 08:17 PM
Is This [edit] Under Another "Alias"..........?:

intothewest
Nov. 17, 2010, 08:31 PM
who?

adult/amature
Nov. 17, 2010, 08:38 PM
Also known as "QH Mom"

allabouteq
Nov. 17, 2010, 08:49 PM
If you had your facts straight you would know that the trainers and rider were told said rider could ride said pony in the Large pony hunters and the Pony Eqs by the VHSA office. Fault of the rider and trainers? I think not. Sorry, most of us don't spend night after night reading the VHSA rule book, especially after confirming with the VHSA show office that indeed the pony would be allowed to do said classes only to be proven wrong by a protest. If you would like to see the apology letter sent by the VHSA office to said trainer, I'm sure they would be more than happy to send you a copy.

Va2Ga
Nov. 17, 2010, 09:41 PM
Im confussed? can some try and explain this to me cant the kid do larges and pony eq? but i thought the question was about ss and then doing pony eq?

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 17, 2010, 09:56 PM
Oh here we go again!!

Renn/aissance
Nov. 17, 2010, 09:57 PM
I love a good trainwreck in the evening. Popcorn, anyone?

danceronice
Nov. 17, 2010, 10:01 PM
Is it time for popcorn or margaritas?

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 17, 2010, 10:03 PM
Section 28
Sec 1
(k) Hunter Short Stirrup. Open to horses and ponies ridden by children 12 years and under, however, shows may specify a lower age limit, i.e., 10 years and under. The division will consist of three (3) classes, two over fence classes and a walk, trot, canter under saddle class. Short Stirrup riders, ponies and horses may not cross enter into any other VHSA Associate Division with the exception of Pleasure Pony or Pleasure Horse at any show in which they exhibit in the Short Stirrup Division. Short Stirrup riders will be limited to no more than two (2) entries in the Short Stirrup Division at any one horse show. The jump height for this division shall be decided by individual horse shows, but should be no lower than 18" and no higher than 2" with a minimum of four (4) jumps. The Short Stirrup division cannot be combined with any other VHSA Associate High Score Award Division. At the year-end Championship show Short Stirrup riders may only cross enter into the Pleasure Horse or Pleasure Pony Division. At the year-end Championship show Short Stirrup ponies and horses may only cross enter into the Pleasure Horse, Pleasure Pony and any non-point division, i.e., Special Hunters. At the VHSA Associate Championship Horse Show the Short Stirrup Division will be split nine (9) years and under and ten to twelve (10-12) years old (show age). At the VHSA Associate Championship show the jump height will be approximately 18" and may include changes of direction

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 17, 2010, 10:04 PM
Is it time for popcorn or margaritas?

I've got a big ole margarita, but I don't think that "adult/amature" has spell check!! :lol:

alittlegray
Nov. 18, 2010, 12:31 AM
So I think I see which pony/rider the OP is referring to - I could conceivably see this happening on a small or medium pony as the height is only a few inches difference, but what rider that is competent to jump around the 2'9" large pony eq is still hanging out in the 18" short stirrup division? That's ridiculous, and I don't have a dog in this fight.

ETA, I could see how the OP would be upset. I had this happen in culpeper with a well-known junior rider who was reserve champ in junior hunters and then took a 5th o/f and won the flat in the large children's pony hunters the same day. Not allowed, but happened anyway. I didn't file a protest because there was no way to know if it would have changed the outcome for my rider, but it was still frustrating to watch. Had I been the rider/pony who placed second behind that junior, you bet I would have protested.

Mayaty02
Nov. 18, 2010, 07:30 AM
I can tell you I see ALOT of people keeping their kids back...heck there's been a pre-short stirrup rider all year who is 10 if she's a day, and should easily be not just showing in short stirrup, but winning. So needless to say, she wins every single Walk/Trot class she enters.

I don't get it. Conceivably I could keep my daughter in pre-short for another year, she's only just turning 8, but I want her to progress so she'll be showing beginner eq in a month. I don't understand the mentality of keeping the kids showing at a level clearly under their skills. Yes I know it means they will win alot, but hello, that is not the point.

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 18, 2010, 08:47 AM
Did someone contact VHSA to see about points being removed for one of the divisions?

One gripe I have is when they changed SS to a hunter instead of an eq division. Then it became a violation to show the same pony in both SS and PH, which I get. But if SS was an eq division, which it SHOULD be, then one of my kids could show in pony hunter and let a SS rider use it for SS which is the way it used to work. That isn't the point of this discussion though, because it IS the rule as it stands now.

So, if it had just been the pony, maybe it wouldn't be so awful. But for the RIDER to show in both divisions? That is more than just a little rule bending...that is outright cheating and completely disgusting for a trainer and parent to allow this. Any kid that can jump a 2'9" eq course at Lexington has no business jumping around the baby fences with the little kids.

If I'd had a kid in either division you'd better bet I'd have protested.

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 18, 2010, 08:51 AM
I can tell you I see ALOT of people keeping their kids back...heck there's been a pre-short stirrup rider all year who is 10 if she's a day, and should easily be not just showing in short stirrup, but winning. So needless to say, she wins every single Walk/Trot class she enters.

I don't get it. Conceivably I could keep my daughter in pre-short for another year, she's only just turning 8, but I want her to progress so she'll be showing beginner eq in a month. I don't understand the mentality of keeping the kids showing at a level clearly under their skills. Yes I know it means they will win alot, but hello, that is not the point.

Our daughter just finished pony hunter on a small and we had considered letting her jump straight to one of our larges but go back to short stirrup because there is no way she'd get him around 2'6". But, we've decided to put her on a medium and trainer said no way let her drop back to ss, even though she is still eligible and pony is green. She'd be bored silly. I was relieved that someone else said it so I'd quit considering it.

We don't see it happen that often at the shows we go to...but occassionally you do see the 13yo's out there jumping around ss that could easily be doing PH/CH and just are looking to beat out the little kids for points. Just the way it goes.

QHmom
Nov. 18, 2010, 08:57 AM
What can I say, but gee thanks for putting my name here! Sadly, I am not the poster here...others with Alias have been here too! But thanks all the same!
My question is did you have the same entry form as everyone else, the one that stated the rules? If so why did you call VHSA to get permission, something not given to others, to cross enter? The rules have been the same for years... There were other people who would have loved the same permission... As for an apolog letter? I would love to see that! Funny thing is that I DID NOT even have apony showing there! So it didnt even affect me!

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 09:51 AM
vhsa is a joke and they never enforce any of their rules. They totally wasted their time, their ink and their money on paper even drafting the rule book. I'm so ready for a total VHSA overhaul. Get rid of the directors that have been on the board for millions of years and start over.

Anyplace Farm
Nov. 18, 2010, 10:49 AM
Why does it even matter who the kid was or who the protesting poster is? Rules are rules and if they are broken, it is worth discussion.

allabouteq
Nov. 18, 2010, 12:37 PM
Just so everyone knows, there were two riders and one pony.

justdandy
Nov. 18, 2010, 12:45 PM
Section 28
Sec 1
(k) Hunter Short Stirrup. . . . Short Stirrup riders, ponies and horses may not cross enter into any other VHSA Associate Division with the exception of Pleasure Pony or Pleasure Horse at any show in which they exhibit in the Short Stirrup Division. . . .


Just so everyone knows, there were two riders and one pony.

And....your point?:rolleyes: The rule clearly states that the ponies can't cross enter.

allabouteq
Nov. 18, 2010, 12:46 PM
What can I say, but gee thanks for putting my name here! Sadly, I am not the poster here...others with Alias have been here too! But thanks all the same!
My question is did you have the same entry form as everyone else, the one that stated the rules? If so why did you call VHSA to get permission, something not given to others, to cross enter? The rules have been the same for years... There were other people who would have loved the same permission... As for an apolog letter? I would love to see that! Funny thing is that I DID NOT even have apony showing there! So it didnt even affect me!

You'll see it when you get your mail because it's apparently in your mailbox as we speak ;)

justdandy
Nov. 18, 2010, 12:57 PM
If you had your facts straight you would know that the trainers and rider were told said rider could ride said pony in the Large pony hunters and the Pony Eqs by the VHSA office. Fault of the rider and trainers? I think not. Sorry, most of us don't spend night after night reading the VHSA rule book, especially after confirming with the VHSA show office that indeed the pony would be allowed to do said classes only to be proven wrong by a protest. If you would like to see the apology letter sent by the VHSA office to said trainer, I'm sure they would be more than happy to send you a copy.

You might not spend night after night reading the rule book, but you could at least read the rules for the divisions you/your students participate in.

And you shouldn't rely on the horse show office. You should know the rules BEFORE going to the show.

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 01:03 PM
Well thats not the results I saw online. I saw pony listed with same owner and same rider in both the large pony eq and short stirrup 10-12. The kid placed in the pony eq and not the short stirrup. Intersting there. ;)

Mayaty02
Nov. 18, 2010, 01:13 PM
Well thats not the results I saw online. I saw pony listed with same owner and same rider in both the large pony eq and short stirrup 10-12. The kid placed in the pony eq and not the short stirrup. Intersting there. ;)

Just FYI you can't trust that. I know of a pony from our barn who was ridden by a little 7 yr old girl in pony pleasure and then another older girl in the SS 10-12 and the 7 yr old is showing up as the rider in the short stirrup, not the one who actually rode the pony.

skrgirl
Nov. 18, 2010, 02:12 PM
Just FYI you can't trust that. I know of a pony from our barn who was ridden by a little 7 yr old girl in pony pleasure and then another older girl in the SS 10-12 and the 7 yr old is showing up as the rider in the short stirrup, not the one who actually rode the pony.

There was a lot of rider confusion throughout the show, Im assuming because they had one number per horse, but thats my assumption only. I had to make the correction every time my moms adult student rode the horse I rode in working; they kept saying it was me, and I didnt want anyone thinking I was riding in an ammy division.

I do know that there was a young lady listed to be riding in special hunter on one critter and pony hunters on another critter, but Im not sure if she scratched one division or not, or if it was the wrong rider listed.

The cross enter rule was listed specifically on the prize list following the special hunter class name. It was blatantly obvious.

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:05 PM
The judge's cards and entry blanks are needed to sort this out.

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:15 PM
It doesn't matter if it was a different rider or not. Its still was the same pony who did the pony eq and then did the ss. If you look at the points on VHSA, the same pony has done childrens pony at a few regular shows this year, and the short stirrup and pony pleasure on the associate level. It also has done the large pony hunters at some associate shows. Either way, the trainer is in the wrong as the pony did clearly enter both the ss and the large pony eq.

justdandy
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:27 PM
The cross enter rule was listed specifically on the prize list following the special hunter class name. It was blatantly obvious.

Didn't you know that some people can't spend night after night reading the prize list, either?:rolleyes: I mean....really. Some people are just too darned busy to follow the rules.

QHmom
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:30 PM
Once again I so flattered! To take time to put letter in my mail box, when you could have scanned it on here for everyone else to enjoy. I feel so special. Question... if you knew it was against rules on sat, why did you still do eq and SS on sunday?
Appears VHSA has dug themselves a bigger hole....

allabouteq
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:36 PM
It doesn't matter if it was a different rider or not. Its still was the same pony who did the pony eq and then did the ss. If you look at the points on VHSA, the same pony has done children's pony at a few regular shows this year, and the short stirrup and pony pleasure on the associate level. It also has done the large pony hunters at some associate shows. Either way, the trainer is in the wrong as the pony did clearly enter both the ss and the large pony eq.

What you're not understanding obviously is that the SS rider didn't pilot said pony in anything over 2ft. The rider who did show over 2'6 etc, NEVER rode the pony in the same day that the child did SS. PLEASE find me results and evidence that these trainers would do so and then maybe you will shut me up. The SS kid mostly did the 2ft (not VHSA recognized) and the Pleasure this year, only doing the SS at the beginning. She was nervous at finals so it was decided she would do the short stirrup. VHSA made a mistake in reading their own rules apparently and said trainers quietly backed up when they realized they indeed could not show the pony in the larges.

allabouteq
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:37 PM
Once again I so flattered! To take time to put letter in my mail box, when you could have scanned it on here for everyone else to enjoy. I feel so special. Question... if you knew it was against rules on sat, why did you still do eq and SS on sunday?
Appears VHSA has dug themselves a bigger hole....

Oh trust me I wouldn't waste my time to prove anything to somebody like you. Wasn't me.

justdandy
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:44 PM
What you're not understanding obviously is that the SS rider didn't pilot said pony in anything over 2ft.

And what you're obviously not understanding is that the pony should NOT have been entered in both divisions no matter what, per the written rule.

You mean to tell me that you showed the entire year and knew nothing about this rule? You filled out your entry blank for this show and never read the specifics for the divisions the pony was entered? It appears that you are trying to put all of the blame on VHSA for giving you the wrong information. You need to step up and take a lot of the blame yourself for not reading the class specs.

Janet
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:55 PM
NEVER rode the pony in the same day that the child did SS.
Same Day?
Or Same Show?

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:09 PM
Oh but you are so not getting it, the pony placed in the Large Pony Eq's on Sunday at Finals, and also on Sunday entered and participated, just did not ribbon in the Short Stirrup 10-12. Please show me where it clearly says the pony in Short Stirrup is ALLOWED to Cross enter??? It doesn't, so therefore you are not getting it. The pony clearly participated in BOTH divisions/ classes. Therefore that makes it cheating in my book whether or not you supposedly got the okay from VHSA, Which I also find completly bogos. I personally know the secretary, shes been in this business for years, and she does know the rules for VHSA Finals and the divsion/ class specs. So uhm ya....cheater cheater.... :no:

skrgirl
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:17 PM
It doesn't matter if it was a different rider or not. Its still was the same pony who did the pony eq and then did the ss. If you look at the points on VHSA, the same pony has done childrens pony at a few regular shows this year, and the short stirrup and pony pleasure on the associate level. It also has done the large pony hunters at some associate shows. Either way, the trainer is in the wrong as the pony did clearly enter both the ss and the large pony eq.

I was actually just speaking about the listings on horseshowsonline. I honestly am not sure which pony it is your discussing, and you are correct, it cant do the ponies and the ss at the same show regardless of rider.

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:24 PM
oh SKR, I wasn't directing that to you. :) I understand that horseshowsonline.com might not accuratly reflect the riders.

HannaLeBlond
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:32 PM
I just wanted to say there are many of us who read the rules and, based on those rules, decided whether to participate. In my particular case, our rider could not, per the rules, cross enter between the East Complex and the Colliseum, so we did not show at finals. For what its worth, the prize list was clear as to the rules...if an oversight occurred the onus should have been on the exhibitor to know the rules AND follow them. Just my 50 cents worth...

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:38 PM
I think I found the pony in question (or there's another one) and the pony placed in BOTH eq (very well, actually ;) ) and pinned in SS U/S and one of the O/F classes, according to horseshowsonline.

Has anyone contacted VHSA to find out what they plan on doing about this? I would assume ribbons/points for one division would need to be forfeited?

And really, any trainer that has a pony competing that much should know that the rules on this are pretty darn clear. If my trainer didn't know this, I'd find a new trainer ;) Really common knowledge around the associate shows and doesn't require hours of study. I'd really like to know who the VHSA rep was that gave "permission" for this particular trainer to allow her kid(s) to break the rules at a championship show.

I mean, I have several ponies at home that I'd love to let cross-enter...maybe I should ask for special "permission?"

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:39 PM
Oh but you are so not getting it, the pony placed in the Large Pony Eq's on Sunday at Finals, and also on Sunday entered and participated, just did not ribbon in the Short Stirrup 10-12. Please show me where it clearly says the pony in Short Stirrup is ALLOWED to Cross enter??? It doesn't, so therefore you are not getting it. The pony clearly participated in BOTH divisions/ classes. Therefore that makes it cheating in my book whether or not you supposedly got the okay from VHSA, Which I also find completly bogos. I personally know the secretary, shes been in this business for years, and she does know the rules for VHSA Finals and the divsion/ class specs. So uhm ya....cheater cheater.... :no:

It did pin in both divisions, not that it matters. Quite well in eq, actually.

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:46 PM
yes it did pin well in the pony eq. I must have missed the pinnings in the SS. I just saw that it did in deed do both the large ponies and the short stirrup. I have no patience for cheaters or rule breakers. Thats the problem with VHSA and a bigger problem for Finals. Every year it seems you have trainers and riders competing where they should not be and year after year nothing ever is done about it. You know its all in who you know not what you know..... :no:

QHmom
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:47 PM
Hey- pony did ss and pony eq on sunday! I dont know who all about eq is and don't really care. THe results speak for themselves.

QHmom
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:52 PM
I understand the show manager gave permission.

2bayboys
Nov. 18, 2010, 04:53 PM
I certainly haven't read the entire VHSA Rule Book, but listed on the VHSA Associate Championship Horse Show Prize List , in the section describing the Short Stirrup Division is this little informative tidbit:
SHORT STIRRUP HUNTER(10-12) - (Sponsored by) Hazelwild Farm - Fredericksburg, VA
Open to junior members who have not reached their 13th birthday as of December 1, 2009. To be judged as a Hunter Division. The Champion and Reserve must have completed at least one jumping class (fences approx. 18”). The riders may cross-enter into the pleasure divisions only. The ponies and horses may cross-enter into the Pleasure divisions, and the Special Hunter Division with a different rider.

Which seems fairly easy to understand (I don't think I would have had to call anyone to clarify this statement for me). If someone is a trainer, and acting as the responsible party for entering clients or at the very least advising clients on entry regulations, I would perhaps read the class/division specifications.

allabouteq
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:00 PM
Hey- pony did ss and pony eq on sunday! I dont know who all about eq is and don't really care. THe results speak for themselves.

Really? I had no idea!

HannaLeBlond
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:00 PM
I was just wondering, is there a waiver provision in the VHSA rule book that would allow for this type of thing? I haven't read the entire rule book and, honestly, am just curious. :D

Janet
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:05 PM
I understand clyde gave permission.
So, I guess the question sis-

Does he have the authority to "give permission"?

QHmom
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:09 PM
What you're not understanding obviously is that the SS rider didn't pilot said pony in anything over 2ft. The rider who did show over 2'6 etc, NEVER rode the pony in the same day that the child did SS. PLEASE find me results and evidence that these trainers would do so and then maybe you will shut me up. The SS kid mostly did the 2ft (not VHSA recognized) and the Pleasure this year, only doing the SS at the beginning. She was nervous at finals so it was decided she would do the short stirrup. VHSA made a mistake in reading their own rules apparently and said trainers quietly backed up when they realized they indeed could not show the pony in the larges.

Um.... Pony did show in both ss and eq on SUNDAY. So that the above statement inaccurate.

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:10 PM
I just emailed VHSA asking about the "permission." Sure would be nice to be able to allow kids to use a short stirrup pony next year for pony eq...I can't imagine how he'll deal with all of the requests for "permission." ;)

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:11 PM
clyde???? ROFL...... ya ok. [edit] Its his show he puts on and he is the associate rep. I find it all hard to believe he would allow such blatant rule bending esp for one trainer and one pony. If it is indeed Clyde, I sure hope trainers bring this to someone higher up and pitch a fit....... WOW OH WOW!

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:13 PM
Good for you Belladonna!!!!!! I'm all for going to a board meeting and hopefully getting somethings said out loud for the board. VHSA has gotten so ridiculously political it makes me wish there was some other association in VA created just to take VHSA's business away. I know way way more trainers disgusted with many aspects of VHSA then not.....

justdandy
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:16 PM
Good for you Belladonna!!!!!! I'm all for going to a board meeting and hopefully getting somethings said out loud for the board. VHSA has gotten so ridiculously political it makes me wish there was some other association in VA created just to take VHSA's business away. I know way way more trainers disgusted with many aspects of VHSA then not.....

I've been in VA 9 years and this year was the first year I ever registered with VHSA (and I really didn't want to do it....but I did). Now I know why I stuck to my guns for so long. I do not want to give my money to an association that doesn't even respect their own rules. I'm going to think long and hard about renewing this year.

skrgirl
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:30 PM
Good for you Belladonna!!!!!! I'm all for going to a board meeting and hopefully getting somethings said out loud for the board. VHSA has gotten so ridiculously political it makes me wish there was some other association in VA created just to take VHSA's business away. I know way way more trainers disgusted with many aspects of VHSA then not.....

Im still in shock that they chose to use a local judge to judge at the Championship show instead of getting someone that didnt know the people in the ring, so everyone had a fair shot. One of ours went into that show leading her division and came out third for the year. Not saying it was indeed the judge, but he does not like my mom, and he knows its my moms pony. Our pony didnt pin and the pony has not placed lower that 3rd all year with the exception of one show. We didnt expect to win, but it just seems we should have gotten something. Just makes you go hmmmmm :confused:

Anticipation
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:38 PM
What reputable trainer says, "I don't have time to read the rulebook". Why be a trainer if you don't know the rules, nor choose to learn them?

Trixie
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:43 PM
I've been in VA 9 years and this year was the first year I ever registered with VHSA (and I really didn't want to do it....but I did). Now I know why I stuck to my guns for so long. I do not want to give my money to an association that doesn't even respect their own rules. I'm going to think long and hard about renewing this year.

I have to say, this has been an issue in other divisions as well - points being "misread" by the VHSA's software, points being added where they shouldn't have been (doubled?) and no response from the VHSA when asked for clarification and help fixing the issue. It was pretty disappointing how they handled it, as the whole point of an association - and a rulebook - IS to have a standard.

intothewest
Nov. 18, 2010, 06:48 PM
Wow. Maybe the VHSA should take note on how associations on the west coast run. I have to say it is pretty clear regarding rules and regulations.

horseladi78
Nov. 18, 2010, 07:03 PM
They will never run efficiant, honest, or by their rules and regulations as long it is still ran like a form of an aristocratic govt. There are never it seems new people voted onto the board, or any change in the structure of management. As long as it stays the same with the same influencial people running it, change will never occur. This association strictly and soley only cares about the money of the association. Money talks with this association. On a side note, are the presidents and vp's paid positions or is everything strictly on volunteer basis?

HorseLuvr
Nov. 18, 2010, 08:25 PM
We have a kid in our association that enjoys doing the high childrens jumpers and the childrens small/medium (usually combined) pony hunters. :confused:

BybeeGirl
Nov. 18, 2010, 09:27 PM
I have to say, this has been an issue in other divisions as well - points being "misread" by the VHSA's software, points being added where they shouldn't have been (doubled?) and no response from the VHSA when asked for clarification and help fixing the issue. It was pretty disappointing how they handled it, as the whole point of an association - and a rulebook - IS to have a standard.

So maybe a software issue, who knows?

Anyone have a clue as to what's happened here? On the show report for the finals show, there are quite a few holes in the results. Some classes are missing 1st, some are missing 2,3,4:
http://vhsa.orgpro-rsmh.net/show.php?season=2&number=526

I will again note that everytime I've made an inquiry, I've either had a prompt reply or a prompt correction from the office.

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 18, 2010, 11:18 PM
I find it all hard to believe he would allow such blatant rule bending esp for one trainer and one pony. If it is indeed Clyde, I sure hope trainers bring this to someone higher up and pitch a fit....... WOW OH WOW!

A few years back I filed a formal protest against a horse that was in the green hunter division. The horse had a 3 year USEF record over 3' so there was no question as to if the horse had broken it's green status per the VHSA Ass. My buddy, Clyde, swept the protest under the carpet and decided to allow the cheating.

I tried to take the protest higher, but the board ruled to have Clyde handle it. Maybe if several people file formal protests and make a bunch of noise something will be done. I'm not holding my breath!

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 18, 2010, 11:25 PM
Here is a link to the thread I spoke of in my previous post:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31086

QHmom
Nov. 18, 2010, 11:33 PM
WOW! I had forgotten that one! Seems to have some of the same lines as this! Thanks for the link...very informative!

horseladi78
Nov. 19, 2010, 09:39 AM
LaBonnie, well that sounds discourging. :no: Its really a shame that VHSA obviously does not care about their rules or specs. And its even more of a shame that trainers and riders give VHSA their money and support an association who clearly does not have a backbone for enforcement. Here's hoping people will stand up and let their voices be heard. :mad:

QHmom
Nov. 19, 2010, 10:04 AM
I am pretty sure this will not go down quietly..... Enough people are mad, tired of cheating and want to see a change for the better...now if VHSA will listen will be the question. Sadly for Labonniebon,it was not the case. However if everyone takes time to read what she has posted, they will see some of the same issues as here. People need to see that at this point it is the kids who will suffer the most when and if points are stripped, riders disqualified, and possibly more. BUT maybe the people who decided to cheat should have thought of the OTHER kids they were cheating out of fair points, opportunities, and a positive experience....want a ribbon so bad? I can get you one at hodges for under a buck!

horseladi78
Nov. 19, 2010, 11:26 AM
And I hope it does not go down quietly. And I hope it does not go down like it did with Pame Herman, which was nothing. Clyde should be embarressed to show his face to even try and support such ridiculous claims

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 19, 2010, 11:40 AM
Preface: I was not a witness to any alleged violation as I did not attend the show, don't have a dog in the fight and certailnly do not take to heart everything I read on the Internet, however at any competition....

It is clearly the individual responsibility of the exhibitor to know and abide by the rules of the governing Association.

On the other hand, the Steward at USEF rated shows - or in this case the VHSA representative's duty is to enforce the rules. From what I gather reading here, it is not clear if the OP brought their objection to the attention of the official(s) at the time of the alleged infraction.

Most organizations like the VHSA consist of a core group of reasonably minded volunteers who collectively write and rewrite rules with the intention of improving the sport - among other duties. They might miss the mark sometimes in which case like USEF and USHJA they accept rule change proposals, grievance letters and general complaints from the membership filed in the form of a letter, I guess in today's world, an email and at annual meetings. (Have you seen the video of Berkshire Hathaway's annual meeting? Hundreds of attendees.)

Mudslinging, name calling and finger pointing serve no purpose when more proactive means will likely lead to the path of reason.

Peace out!

Janet
Nov. 19, 2010, 11:49 AM
IIRC, in the case LaBonnieBon refers to, they were able to claim some ambiguity in the rules.

But this one seems much more black and white. And there are a lot more people affected. SO I don't think they will be able to sweep this one away so easily. At least, I hope not.

horseladi78
Nov. 19, 2010, 03:40 PM
LaBonnieBon:

Did you ever receive a reply from VHSA for the obvious blatant disregard by one Ms. Pam Herman for Hemmingway and Cactus Jack being forever green????????? It seems in the thread you posted, that after 16 wks you never had heard anything. I didn't see a follow up post in regards to it being resolved. So let me guess....VHSA just swept that under a rug and pocketed your $100 protest fee. So VHSA classic!!!

2bayboys
Nov. 19, 2010, 04:11 PM
I understand clyde gave permission.

To everyone throwing Clyde under the bus, this is the only reference I can find to him being the person responsible for supplying the trainer with bad information. So why don't we all slow down and take a deep breath, this one remark is hardly proof that he has behaved inappropriately in this matter.

It does seem clear that the trainer entered (or allowed to be entered) the pony in two divisions, which is clearly against the rules according to the VHSA rulebook and according to the show prizelist. Whether it was a deliberate act or ignorance will probably never be conclusively determined, without an admission of one or the other.

supersly
Nov. 19, 2010, 10:19 PM
Has anyone been able to look at the results for eithe Short Stirrup or Pony Eq on HorseShowsOnline? I wonder if someone found this thread and is trying to fix it?

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 20, 2010, 09:38 AM
IIRC, in the case LaBonnieBon refers to, they were able to claim some ambiguity in the rules.

But this one seems much more black and white. And there are a lot more people affected. SO I don't think they will be able to sweep this one away so easily. At least, I hope not.

They danced around the rules... interpreting them differently than everyone else seemed to interpret them....

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 20, 2010, 09:47 AM
LaBonnieBon:

Did you ever receive a reply from VHSA for the obvious blatant disregard by one Ms. Pam Herman for Hemmingway and Cactus Jack being forever green????????? It seems in the thread you posted, that after 16 wks you never had heard anything. I didn't see a follow up post in regards to it being resolved. So let me guess....VHSA just swept that under a rug and pocketed your $100 protest fee. So VHSA classic!!!

Honestly, I can't remember for sure exactly how that ended. I will try to find the info and let you know.

From what I recall, the protest was basically swept under the carpet saying I was not an "exhibitor" at the show and therefore could not file a protest. At the time their definition of an "exhibitor" in the rulebook was something like a person entered at the show. I was suppose to show, but the horse I was going to ride got sick the day before he was going to be shipped. I was entered, I had a number so based on the rule at the time... I was an exhibitor.

Interestingly enough, they did return my check....

QHmom
Nov. 20, 2010, 10:28 AM
Even if they did change the show results, enough people have seen it.

horseladi78
Nov. 21, 2010, 12:32 PM
:mad:The results are the same. Nothing has changed and its looking like classic VHSA...nothing done and ignore it and it will go away....

HannaLeBlond
Nov. 22, 2010, 06:29 PM
Has anyone who contacted VHSA regarding the perceived rule violations heard anything back? Just curious...:eek:

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 22, 2010, 06:45 PM
I sent an email last week and haven't gotten a response yet.

Everythingbutwings
Nov. 23, 2010, 08:35 AM
I sent an email last week and haven't gotten a response yet.

It took a little while but we did get a response to our inquiry (not regarding the year end show). I imagine there is a massive amount of correspondence for one person to deal with at this time of year. It sounded like the poor clerk is a bit overwhelmed.

RNB
Nov. 25, 2010, 11:55 AM
But this one seems much more black and white. And there are a lot more people affected. SO I don't think they will be able to sweep this one away so easily. At least, I hope not.

Agreed.

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 25, 2010, 04:54 PM
I know there are a lot of VHSA members who would truly like to see the formal protest on this situation addressed. I hope they will come through on this one...

In the mean time, if I were a trainer and found out I had violated the written rules of the association in one way or another, I would certainly be trying to do something about it!! I would have already sent a letter to the VHSA asking for all points won by the pony at the final show to be stripped. With the letter, I would have enclosed all ribbons/awards the pony won at that show.

Of course, not everyone has the courage to do the right thing....

QHmom
Nov. 25, 2010, 11:03 PM
Well put! Sadly some people not only dont have values, the internal moral compass is not existant.

Everythingbutwings
Nov. 26, 2010, 08:48 AM
Sadly some people not only dont have values, the internal moral compass is not existant.

It's up to those who do to insist that rules are applied equally across the board. We all pay the membership fees, we pay entries at VHSA accredited shows and expect to be held to the same standard.

mlcoursin
Nov. 26, 2010, 09:39 AM
LaBonnieBon:

Did you ever receive a reply from VHSA for the obvious blatant disregard by one Ms. Pam Herman for Hemmingway and Cactus Jack being forever green????????? It seems in the thread you posted, that after 16 wks you never had heard anything. I didn't see a follow up post in regards to it being resolved. So let me guess....VHSA just swept that under a rug and pocketed your $100 protest fee. So VHSA classic!!!

What...Pam Herman cheat?? NO:lol:

WonderGirl
Nov. 30, 2010, 03:25 PM
Really? A state association not enforcing their own rules at FINALS? Why would anyone join this association? Wonder if the trainers are on this thread? Obviously someone from their barn seems to be :) Wonder if they can tell all who they got the ok from to cross enter in the pony eq, or did they just do it on their own?

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 30, 2010, 06:54 PM
Still haven't gotten a response to my email, FWIW.

QHmom
Nov. 30, 2010, 08:49 PM
Wondergirl- the trainer is AdultAmature. For those who think I am point fingers, who cares...they put my name on here in the second post. At least I dont have to post actual names, everyone seems to know who they are without! Funny.....

chunky munky
Dec. 1, 2010, 03:29 PM
I have not read this entire post, but get the idea. As I have repeated often, don't take the wimpy way out and whine on a bulletin board, go tell it to someone that can do something about it. Another suggestion: Attend the Associate Forum at the convention next weekend. You can stand up and say it all in front of everybody. You may also want to create a document of your discontent and get all you dissatisfied members to sign the document. Perhaps then you will all be hard to ignore.
To my knowledge there is no official VHSA rep at any show. This is one of the reasons that some people choose to show at recognized shows because there is a steward as well as other goodies like drug testing. There are certainly benefits on both circuits, but policing tends to be better at the recognized shows.

chunky munky
Dec. 1, 2010, 07:08 PM
Oh but you are so not getting it, the pony placed in the Large Pony Eq's on Sunday at Finals, and also on Sunday entered and participated, just did not ribbon in the Short Stirrup 10-12. Please show me where it clearly says the pony in Short Stirrup is ALLOWED to Cross enter??? It doesn't, so therefore you are not getting it. The pony clearly participated in BOTH divisions/ classes. Therefore that makes it cheating in my book whether or not you supposedly got the okay from VHSA, Which I also find completly bogos. I personally know the secretary, shes been in this business for years, and she does know the rules for VHSA Finals and the divsion/ class specs. So uhm ya....cheater cheater.... :no:

The secretary is an employee of the horse show. They do what they are told by management.

BestLegUp
Dec. 2, 2010, 12:12 PM
I have not read this entire post, but get the idea. As I have repeated often, don't take the wimpy way out and whine on a bulletin board, go tell it to someone that can do something about it. Another suggestion: Attend the Associate Forum at the convention next weekend. You can stand up and say it all in front of everybody. You may also want to create a document of your discontent and get all you dissatisfied members to sign the document. Perhaps then you will all be hard to ignore.
To my knowledge there is no official VHSA rep at any show. This is one of the reasons that some people choose to show at recognized shows because there is a steward as well as other goodies like drug testing. There are certainly benefits on both circuits, but policing tends to be better at the recognized shows.

Actually, the best thing for cheaters is that everyone shuts up and just lets it go. Filing a protest is a good step, but no one knows what is going on with the protest - its behind closed doors. Talking at the convention is good, but if the establishment is part of the problem, your words may not be heard. "whining" on a bulletin board is a great way to make people aware of the issue; to show cheaters that it won't go away and that a lot of people do care. By the way, a written protest is on file. We will all see what VHSA does. In the meantime, I think the more talking, the more pressure, the less likely for repeat offenders and the better chance for a positive change. One other caveat, this incident is not about judging or a judgment call - it is about the apparent toleration of a clear rule violation. If the VHSA doesn't care that one rule is broken, then we might as well break them all. I think everyone should be upset.

chunky munky
Dec. 2, 2010, 01:21 PM
Section 28
Sec 1
(k) Hunter Short Stirrup. Open to horses and ponies ridden by children 12 years and under, however, shows may specify a lower age limit, i.e., 10 years and under. The division will consist of three (3) classes, two over fence classes and a walk, trot, canter under saddle class. Short Stirrup riders, ponies and horses may not cross enter into any other VHSA Associate Division with the exception of Pleasure Pony or Pleasure Horse at any show in which they exhibit in the Short Stirrup Division. Short Stirrup riders will be limited to no more than two (2) entries in the Short Stirrup Division at any one horse show. The jump height for this division shall be decided by individual horse shows, but should be no lower than 18" and no higher than 2" with a minimum of four (4) jumps. The Short Stirrup division cannot be combined with any other VHSA Associate High Score Award Division. At the year-end Championship show Short Stirrup riders may only cross enter into the Pleasure Horse or Pleasure Pony Division. At the year-end Championship show Short Stirrup ponies and horses may only cross enter into the Pleasure Horse, Pleasure Pony and any non-point division, i.e., Special Hunters. At the VHSA Associate Championship Horse Show the Short Stirrup Division will be split nine (9) years and under and ten to twelve (10-12) years old (show age). At the VHSA Associate Championship show the jump height will be approximately 18" and may include changes of direction

I understand that people are unhappy that a rule has been broken. Frankly, I think perhaps you should think more about changing the rule. A child should have restrictions, but it is perhaps not in the best interest of the shows ,trainers, exhibitors and the economic impact for all to restrict the use of the pony for another child exhibiting in another division. Just a thought.

BelladonnaLily
Dec. 2, 2010, 01:42 PM
I understand that people are unhappy that a rule has been broken. Frankly, I think perhaps you should think more about changing the rule. A child should have restrictions, but it is perhaps not in the best interest of the shows ,trainers, exhibitors and the economic impact for all to restrict the use of the pony for another child exhibiting in another division. Just a thought.

I agree that the rule should be changed. But it doesn't change the fact that I cannot allow my ponies to cross-enter, but a chosen few are allowed. I don't "sneak" or "ask permission" to break the rules. Until the rule is changed, they should enforce it fairly.

And this is one reason I wish that Short Stirrup was Short Stirrup Equitation and not Hunter. Then it wouldn't matter so much if the pony cross-entered...

QHmom
Dec. 2, 2010, 02:48 PM
Several good points here...ChunkyMonkey- please read the whole thread and understand what really is going on. As for the rule? I agree the SS needs to be changed! I have one pony and two kids who want show and cant. With this economy, VHSA needs to understand that not all parents can afford multiple ponies and the younger siblings riding the olders mount should be allowed.
The show secretary is employed to do just that- secretarial duties. I feel bad for the secretary as they sometimes receive alot of the complaints.
The Chronicle BB is a fantastic vessell for information. People come on here to learn, vent, ask for advice, and seek information. I would hope that VHSa would read this thread and understand that there are other members who are frustrated with what went on at Finals. Facts remain the same- rules were broken, Management gave the permission ( i have received a copy of the apology letter from VHSA to the trainers at fault, in our mail box for some reason) and even after trainers and parents complained, the pony still cross entered. WHo is to blame? That will be for VHSA to sort out.

WonderGirl
Dec. 2, 2010, 03:10 PM
I understand that people are unhappy that a rule has been broken. Frankly, I think perhaps you should think more about changing the rule. A child should have restrictions, but it is perhaps not in the best interest of the shows ,trainers, exhibitors and the economic impact for all to restrict the use of the pony for another child exhibiting in another division. Just a thought.

Again, really?! So it's ok to break the rules you don't agree with and then get them changed afterwards? So everytime one person does not agree with a rule it should be changed? You are not going to please all the people all the time.

QHmom
Dec. 2, 2010, 03:32 PM
From the reading on here...NO ONE is pleased with what went on!!! Wait though... I wasent whinning...I was just accused.... LOL

chunky munky
Dec. 3, 2010, 01:01 PM
Again, really?! So it's ok to break the rules you don't agree with and then get them changed afterwards? So everytime one person does not agree with a rule it should be changed? You are not going to please all the people all the time.

Uh, WG. That is SO not what I said. Go ride the drama llama into someone else's yard.
And yes I do think that is a poor rule on so many levels, and it appears that others feel that way too. I am unaware of any other organization that has a rule like this. ( Though there are probably some with wackier rules than this one.) Personally I couldn't care less if they change it or not, but it is not promoting maximum entries at the 1000 VHSA shows held during the season, and not allowing an economic break for young riders and their parents that may wish to share expenses on a lease horse and shipping costs.
I just think all you unhappy people need to organize and present your opinions to the individuals and committees at the VHSA so that it will be impossible to "sweep it under the rug" as you all say they seem to do. You all keep referring to those you need to complain to as "the VHSA". The organization is made up of individuals. Some rigid and some very reasonable people that may be willing and able to address the issues with concern and intelligence. Perhaps give that a try before you just throw your collective hands up in the air.

chunky munky
Dec. 3, 2010, 01:03 PM
Several good points here...ChunkyMonkey- please read the whole thread and understand what really is going on. As for the rule? I agree the SS needs to be changed! I have one pony and two kids who want show and cant. With this economy, VHSA needs to understand that not all parents can afford multiple ponies and the younger siblings riding the olders mount should be allowed.
The show secretary is employed to do just that- secretarial duties. I feel bad for the secretary as they sometimes receive alot of the complaints.
The Chronicle BB is a fantastic vessell for information. People come on here to learn, vent, ask for advice, and seek information. I would hope that VHSa would read this thread and understand that there are other members who are frustrated with what went on at Finals. Facts remain the same- rules were broken, Management gave the permission ( i have received a copy of the apology letter from VHSA to the trainers at fault, in our mail box for some reason) and even after trainers and parents complained, the pony still cross entered. WHo is to blame? That will be for VHSA to sort out.

The odds are slim to none that many if any associate or other committee members will be reading your thread unless you copy it and send it to them.

intothewest
Dec. 4, 2010, 12:09 AM
What pray tell is a drama llama?

MHM
Dec. 4, 2010, 02:08 AM
What pray tell is a drama llama?

It's a COTH term from a very melodramatic thread some years ago, which prompted the poster Paragon (to give credit where it is due) to pose the question:

What is it about the holidays, I wonder, that makes everyone saddle up their drama-llamas and go for a spin?

:lol:

akrogirl
Dec. 4, 2010, 02:28 AM
Wow. Maybe the VHSA should take note on how associations on the west coast run. I have to say it is pretty clear regarding rules and regulations.

As a west coast rider, I have personally run into rules violations here. The situation is hardly unique to VHSA.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 5, 2010, 12:53 PM
I just think all you unhappy people need to organize and present your opinions to the individuals and committees at the VHSA so that it will be impossible to "sweep it under the rug" as you all say they seem to do. You all keep referring to those you need to complain to as "the VHSA". The organization is made up of individuals. Some rigid and some very reasonable people that may be willing and able to address the issues with concern and intelligence. Perhaps give that a try before you just throw your collective hands up in the air.

I totally agree with this, but when I filed my protest years back I spoke to Mr. Poarch on the phone (as well as some others) and he could not have cared less about what the Ass. population had to say. I also have been told on several occasions (by the very reasonable people involved with VHSA) what he said at meetings... hoping I would go away and he was going to sweep the protest under the carpet. What are we suppose to do when people like this are in charge of the Ass. part of the organization?

QHmom
Dec. 5, 2010, 01:55 PM
What makes me ill is the way the protestors are treated....from what I have heard...like they are the ones who did the cheating. I also cant figure out for the life of me how VHSA gets around protests with thier so called loop holes. The protestor would have liked to attend the VHSA banquet, but there was another banquet today for a smaller series of shows, and the little kids were recieving thier awards. Infact this series already had a letter of protest given to them regarding the same trainers who chose to disregard the Rules at finals. The protest was "swept " under the rug with that circuit.

Trixie
Dec. 5, 2010, 03:49 PM
I hate that if you want to be heard, that's what you have to do - be a pest and then throw a fit. The organization is the one that wrote the rules, they should a) be clear on what they are and b) enforce them. It shouldn't take someone threatening to have a fit in a public venue in order for them to take the concerns of their membership seriously.

I had to ask for clarification on a points issue a while ago, and it was basically an enormous pain.

Brydelle Farm
Dec. 5, 2010, 04:54 PM
WG, most people don't 1) know that a rule exists or 2) realize how it will be enforced or 3) realize how that enforcement (or not) will affect them, until a rule is ENFORCED or BROKEN. Witness the fiasco with McLain at the World Cup. So to suggest a rule change AFTER the fact is only natural, as the impact wasn't felt until it was broken. And a rule change makes SENSE!

I have to respectfully disagree. VHSA rules are easily available, accessible and not that intricate and this particular rule is printed VERY clearly and repeatedly under the SS Hunter class specs on every VHSA prizelists I have seen. And honestly, if you are participating in said sport, you need to make yourself aware of the rules, and if you break then truly out of ignorance, then admit it, learn from it, and accept the consequences.

Whether this rule should be changed or not is irrelevant to it being broken at said show. A proposal to change this rule could have been made anytime since it was started with the advent of SS hunter.

The fiasco with Mclain was over a much more subjective rule, they were aware of the rule but it definitely had unclear specification on how it would be applied and how it was applied had its own issues/bias. But let's not open this can of worms. ;)

JMHO FWIW

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 6, 2010, 12:55 AM
I would never trust that my protest was being acted on if I hadn't sent it certified mail with return receipt, to a specific person that I could later follow up with. Ad infinitum if necessary, until I got a response.

I did.... and it still took over 4 months for them to respond.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 6, 2010, 01:13 AM
Look, you can keep saying that all you want, but if you don't MAKE A LOT OF NOISE, and keep careful track of when/how your protest was lodged and stay on top of it until a resolution is found, then don't complain about things being "swept under the rug." Especially if you aren't the one experiencing it. If you send a protest/petition/letter of complaint to a specific person, certified, return receipt requested, then you have proof it was received. Then, you start to call that person and document each call. Make a complete PITA of yourself. If they pass you off to someone else, rinse and repeat. Threaten to go public in a public venue (at a horse show) if you have to, but don't shut up until you get satisfaction. And the more people onboard with you, the better.

Trust me, I did make a LOT of noise. I still have the file, with every single letter that was typed, every single notation when I spoke to someone, the list of every single time I contacted VHSA, a copy of the letters I sent to everyone on the board because I was not getting any response from "the powers that be", the calls and emails I sent USEF, the VHSA committee members who anonymously contacted me with information, etc.... I just had to go through that file for the person who sent in a formal protest on this recent case. This folder is a good 4" thick. :eek:

A lot of people made a LOT of noise. So much so that Mr. Poarch himself made an appearance on this board... just to talk in more circles.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 6, 2010, 01:23 AM
And honestly, if you are participating in said sport, you need to make yourself aware of the rules, and if you break then truly out of ignorance, then admit it, learn from it, and accept the consequences.

Very good point!

I do not feel the VHSA is the only one at fault with this recent rule violation. The trainer and owner of Sneak a Peak should be stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing. Admit you were in violation of the rule, have the points/awards taken away and next time try to be a better example for all the kids who are watching....

QHmom
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:57 AM
Laurie P- HAve you read the whole thread? At the FINALS parents and trainers alike protested this issue, then a formal protest was sent in. Come people...not rocket science....my 6 yr old got the rules! LaBonnieBOn got the shaft...Funny...so do alot of people who call them out!!

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 6, 2010, 09:25 AM
And...?????

Out came the broom to sweep it under the carpet!

justdandy
Dec. 6, 2010, 09:41 AM
I hate that if you want to be heard, that's what you have to do - be a pest and then throw a fit. The organization is the one that wrote the rules, they should a) be clear on what they are and b) enforce them. It shouldn't take someone threatening to have a fit in a public venue in order for them to take the concerns of their membership seriously.

I had to ask for clarification on a points issue a while ago, and it was basically an enormous pain.


Totally agree with this.

Again, this is the type of crap that kept me from joining VHSA when I moved to VA 9 years ago. I had a small lapse in judgment this past year and joined. That won't happen this year. I will not be renewing. I refuse to support an organization that can't even follow it's own rules.

QHmom
Dec. 6, 2010, 09:48 AM
You are not alone...many, many people will not be rejoining! Our family is only one of the many!

horseladi78
Dec. 6, 2010, 11:21 AM
While I have not had a chance to read all the new replies to this thread, as I was out of town on business, I am so glad to see this thread is still around. After I read all replies, I am sure I will have another comment. :winkgrin: I'm still disgusted with VHSA and as of today will not be supporting this orginization with my memebership dues. This is the first time in decades I have felt this strongly against supporting VHSA and I am that disgusted. My trainer, too, is disgusted and really did not want to send in any dues either. But she was torn between potentially hosting some VHSA shows this year and attending several A's so the money had to be sent in. However, no one from our barn will ever attend Finals again. Good one VHSA, lose a little business why dont you.

horseladi78
Dec. 6, 2010, 11:54 AM
Did anyone attend the convention this past weekend and have anything to report? I'm pretty sure not but here's hoping. Clyde needs to be gone, as in like last year gone.... Its time to revamp VHSA, and get some new directors that actually care about the orginization that elected them into office. If you don't care or refuse to do the job your elected to do then out you go.... Its time for a change people! :mad:

WonderGirl
Dec. 6, 2010, 03:23 PM
Uh, WG. That is SO not what I said. Go ride the drama llama into someone else's yard.
And yes I do think that is a poor rule on so many levels, and it appears that others feel that way too. I am unaware of any other organization that has a rule like this. ( Though there are probably some with wackier rules than this one.) Personally I couldn't care less if they change it or not, but it is not promoting maximum entries at the 1000 VHSA shows held during the season, and not allowing an economic break for young riders and their parents that may wish to share expenses on a lease horse and shipping costs.
I just think all you unhappy people need to organize and present your opinions to the individuals and committees at the VHSA so that it will be impossible to "sweep it under the rug" as you all say they seem to do. You all keep referring to those you need to complain to as "the VHSA". The organization is made up of individuals. Some rigid and some very reasonable people that may be willing and able to address the issues with concern and intelligence. Perhaps give that a try before you just throw your collective hands up in the air.

touche CM! :lol:to use drama llama correctly in a sentence AND have it defined by a fellow user!!!! Thanks for the giggle. But seriously, this is not about whether we agree or disagree with the rule as written but the fact that the rule was blatantly broken even with VHSA members protesting the action while it was occurring. The attempt to cross enter was infact protested and not allowed on Saturday!
To all those who are giving suggestions on how to organize and be heard, have any of you besides LaBonnieBon ever filed a formal complaint with the VHSA and had any success with the Exective Committee?

Rockfish
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:18 PM
not surprised this happened, considering the parties and association involved.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:41 PM
WonderGirl - I know of one other person who filed a formal protest a few years back. Anyone want to guess what happened with that one????

:rolleyes:

QHmom
Dec. 8, 2010, 09:50 AM
Swept again?

horseladi78
Dec. 8, 2010, 11:10 AM
appears to have..... :no: But really not surprised. VHSA won't be getting a dime from me anytime soon. Now if only others would follow

justdandy
Dec. 8, 2010, 11:21 AM
Sounds like VHSA needs a new rug. The old one has gotten very bumpy.

QHmom
Dec. 8, 2010, 11:52 AM
And the thead is coming loose...At least a new rug is in order!

BelladonnaLily
Dec. 8, 2010, 12:40 PM
Still no response to my email either...

horseladi78
Dec. 8, 2010, 12:44 PM
Come on people..this thread has now been viewed over 10,000 + times and nothing is getting done? I soooo wish I had been in town for the convention, because by golly I would have gone to speak. Can't we get a petition going? Something or anything??? I mean seriously? How about some of you speaking up instead of just lurking?

justdandy
Dec. 8, 2010, 01:03 PM
Still no response to my email either...

I'm shocked.


Too bad you can't hear the sarcasm in a typed message.:winkgrin:

skrgirl
Dec. 8, 2010, 01:10 PM
Still no response to my email either...

Mine hasnt been answered either.

WonderGirl
Dec. 8, 2010, 02:25 PM
Mine has. It appears that the VHSA has found a bigger broom and a larger carpet and they are desperately trying to sweep away their members. It is not over yet. Please email the office again and more specifically all the members of the Associate Executive Committee and let them know you are watching and are not pleased with their behavior!! As lauriep states get all your friends to question this also. Let them know that a large membership population is watching. Do not renew membership and let them know you are not renewing until they answer "why the cross entering was permitted for one farm alone at Finals?" Even non members should question this. If the VHSA comes up with the correct answer maybe they will regain your respect and get membership back.

QHmom
Dec. 8, 2010, 04:14 PM
How in the world can they sweep something as blantant as this cheating under the rug? I mean come on! There can be no excuse for this .... I wonder how the other protests on this matter are being responded to. Seriously, VHSA will look the bigger fool for letting this go....

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 8, 2010, 07:26 PM
Exactly my point, WG. DON'T stop making noise until you get satisfaction! Don't tell me "they swept it under the rug." You gave up! They are counting on that happening! If you, and all of your friends, continue emailing, writing, calling, everyday if need be, you WILL get a response if only to stop the annoyance. And if the answer isn't to your satisfaction, start again! No one is saying it will be easy, or that you will get a response on the first, tenth, or fiftieth try. But keep at it.

And yes, QHMom, I have read the entire thread, which is why I posted. I got tired of reading "they swept it under the rug" or "we got no response."

After about 6 months of BS from the protest I had filed, I got really tired. A few year rest... I'm ready to go with you guys again!!

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 8, 2010, 07:31 PM
It is sad enough when trainers set bad examples for the kids they teach by being cheating and being dishonest, but when the association that the same kid's parents give money allows this and then they violate their own rules.... that's just PATHETIC!!!

But... as the story goes some of the "good ole boys" have quite a few skeleton's in their closet! :no:

QHmom
Dec. 8, 2010, 07:49 PM
LaurieP- You appear to have disgust with the VHSA as well....Why may I ask? We have all been on here, openly telling of our disappointment, but what is yours? I really dont think WG will let this pass. I personally have a problem with the fact an association would back the cheaters over the people who would up hold the rules up. Have you called or emailed the association yet, regarding this? Are you planning to be a member next year even after you know they will let cheaters win? I really dont think this will end anytime soon.

BestLegUp
Dec. 9, 2010, 01:56 PM
To those that don't know, a written Protest was timely filed. The primary villain is the Final's Show Manager who knowingly authorized, over several objections, the cross entering of a pony in both SS and pony eq. Rule 2, part 1, Sec.1 (b)(2) says "Any Show Manager, who violates or knowingly permits violation of the rules of the Association at his show, shall be subject to disciplinary action ..." The cross entering prohibition is a rule of the VHSA (and was recited in the prize list). Seemed like a clear case. Of course the Show Manager is also on the committee that decides protests and is a board member. The first response from the committee was to attack the protestor, improperly declare her ineligible to file a protest, and threaten to investigate her for a supposed infraction. In view of the supposed error, the committee would take no action against the Show Manager, despite the apparent mandatory language in Rule 2 ("shall be subject to disciplinary action"). Such thuggery is consistent with a corrupt organization; not with one concerned about fair play and rule of law. (‘you complain, we come after you.’ – really?!). FYI- the protestor did not commit the supposed infraction. A reply is being sent to the committee pointing out their errors. Perhaps they will do the right thing. But I fear they will either sweep this one under the rug too, or change the truth around and put all the blame on the trainers that cross entered (they behaved poorly in my view, but the real blame belongs on the governing body that permitted it). I have met good people in the VHSA organization. I hope they stand up and demand the appropriate action be taken.

2bayboys
Dec. 9, 2010, 02:32 PM
Why was the protestor supposedly ineligible to file a protest?

BestLegUp
Dec. 9, 2010, 04:57 PM
2BBs, I would love to fully explain the situation, but I think it only prudent that I let VHSA receive the reply and digest its meaning before airing it less well here. There is a lot wrong with what they say and multiple defenses to their approach. I can tell you that it involves the qualification standard, even though the Horse Show determined the entry to be properly qualified and the protestor did actually participate in the relevant class. Of course, the protestor thought the entry was proper as well.

meupatdoes
Dec. 9, 2010, 05:24 PM
2BBs, I would love to fully explain the situation, but I think it only prudent that I let VHSA receive the reply and digest its meaning before airing it less well here. There is a lot wrong with what they say and multiple defenses to their approach. I can tell you that it involves the qualification standard, even though the Horse Show determined the entry to be properly qualified and the protestor did actually participate in the relevant class. Of course, the protestor thought the entry was proper as well.

OK, but why does it matter whether the protestor was qualified?

This does not change that Show Management ignored their own rules. NOW all of a sudden they are sticklers?

fordtraktor
Dec. 9, 2010, 10:19 PM
Sounds like it LaBonnieBon's experience, Redux. Someone files a legitimate grievance, so they try to come up with a reason why that person lacks standing to file the claim rather than deal with the complaint.

Shameful, VHSA. But not surprising at all. Some things never change.

justdandy
Dec. 10, 2010, 09:30 AM
OK, but why does it matter whether the protestor was qualified?

This does not change that Show Management ignored their own rules. NOW all of a sudden they are sticklers?

EXACTLY!!! It seems the powers that be can decide which of their OWN rules they want to follow. Absolutely pathetic!

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 10, 2010, 11:51 AM
Sounds like it LaBonnieBon's experience, Redux. Someone files a legitimate grievance, so they try to come up with a reason why that person lacks standing to file the claim rather than deal with the complaint.

Shameful, VHSA. But not surprising at all. Some things never change.

Yep, with my protest they tried to say I was not an exhibitor because I did not go in the class I was signed up for (horse got sick and had to scratch). Per their rules at that time, I was an exhibitor. Since then they have changed their rules to give "exhibitor" a different definition.

QHmom
Dec. 10, 2010, 12:53 PM
What happened to LaurieP???

WonderGirl
Dec. 10, 2010, 03:34 PM
If you had your facts straight you would know that the trainers and rider were told said rider could ride said pony in the Large pony hunters and the Pony Eqs by the VHSA office. Fault of the rider and trainers? I think not. Sorry, most of us don't spend night after night reading the VHSA rule book, especially after confirming with the VHSA show office that indeed the pony would be allowed to do said classes only to be proven wrong by a protest. If you would like to see the apology letter sent by the VHSA office to said trainer, I'm sure they would be more than happy to send you a copy.


You'll see it when you get your mail because it's apparently in your mailbox as we speak ;)


Wow. I just read the “apology letter” from the VHSA. The letter says the cross entering between pony hunter and short stirrup was a “mistake” based on “misinterpretation of the rules” by the executive secretary and that the trainers had no “malicious intent” in cross entering into the pony hunter. The letter calls the trainers’ actions “gracious” in this whole matter. But they only scratched from the pony hunter after a protest was raised. I guess following the rules when the police are watching is “gracious.” :confused: More troubling, however, is that they didn’t back down. The very next day, like naughty children, they were right back in the cookie jar and this time they successfully stole a cookie…er, competed in the pony eq division. The apology letter neither gives them permission nor forgiveness for cross entering into the pony eq. After being stopped from breaking the rule on Saturday, they nonetheless proceeded to break the rule the next day! Yes, of course, fault of trainers. I disagree BestLegUp. I think the trainers’ conduct is far worse than merely “improper.” I would say “malicious” intent here. It’s too late to call them ignorant of the rules at that point. Interestingly this “apology letter” is from the executive secretary of the VHSA and not from the horse show secretary. Strange that she would give advice on the horse show and not turn it over to the horse show secretary and stranger that she would issue a written apology two days after the horse show. Is that halibut or haddock? I’m not sure but something smells fishy. And thanks to allabouteq and trainers for making this letter publicly available. ;)

horseladi78
Dec. 10, 2010, 04:02 PM
I too have been tipped off in regards to the apology letter. I also have had several PM's sent to my inbox. What was told to me is that Clyde felt bad for the trainer and child getting the wrong information on Sat and allowed the cross entering to occur Sunday. It was not until a protest was filed that VHSA is now saying they corrected the problem and that Clyde quickly fixed his quick decision of allowing it. So here's what I interupt that as meaning, Clyde allowed it Sunday hoping no one would notice that the pony was cross entering. It is also been told to me that the said pony, and rider have been disqualified? and that their points were taken away. Can someone please show me where it does not any longer show this kid or pony as having points from Finals? On both the VHSA website and online you clearly can still see the points for this rider. If they did indeed remove the points, wouldn't the rider no longer show up as placing?? And why oh why can members not vote as to who is on what board and doing what job with VHSA, as I have never ever in all my years of membership ever received a ballot to vote on the board. It makes it interesting when members of an association really have absolutely no say in who is on their own board. Id also love to see the financial report for the VHSA. Wonder where all our member money goes?

QHmom
Dec. 10, 2010, 04:31 PM
Show manager felt bad for people, who clearly knew the rules from past years, because they were told the wrong answer to a question that never should have been asked? Yup.... Mmmmm
Horseladi has it nailed!

Ruby G. Weber
Dec. 10, 2010, 08:18 PM
For those asking about the election of Board members, the election procedure is clearly stated in the By-Laws.

Nominations and the election of the Board takes place at the annual meeting.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 10, 2010, 08:37 PM
For those asking about the election of Board members, the election procedure is clearly stated in the By-Laws.

Nominations and the election of the Board takes place at the annual meeting.

Is that the one at the Homestead? I know it is beautiful there, but I'm not a fan of driving to remote locations. Can't they have it some place where you could fly or take the train?

Ruby G. Weber
Dec. 10, 2010, 09:19 PM
Yes. However I believe the Convention/annual meeting have been held at other locations as well.
FYI it is not impossible to get to Hot Springs via public transportation.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 10, 2010, 09:25 PM
Yes. However I believe the Convention/annual meeting have been held at other locations as well.
FYI it is not impossible to get to Hot Springs via public transportation.

I know it's not impossible, but it is certainly not easy! My family use to own the land the Homestead sits on... or the land next to it. I would have to check on that again, but they owned mountain to mountain. They started a store and it is still in operation, too! Maybe that is enough info for the VHSA to move the location... after all, Clyde has called me a troublemaker more than once! :lol:

Brydelle Farm
Dec. 10, 2010, 10:21 PM
....that the trainers and rider were told said rider could ride said pony in the Large pony hunters and the Pony Eqs by the VHSA office. ...., most of us don't spend night after night reading the VHSA rule book, especially after confirming with the VHSA show office that indeed the pony would be allowed .....

You don't have to stay up all night, it is clearly stated in the VHSA Assoc Championship Show prize list.

http://www.vhsa.com/ACHSPrizeList.pdf
SHORT STIRRUP HUNTER (9 and under) - (Sponsored by) Briarwood Farm - Lisa Doczi
Open to junior members who have not reached their 10th birthday as of December 1, 2009. To be judged as a Hunter Division. The Champion and Reserve must have completed at least one jumping class (fences approx. 18”). The riders may cross-enter into the pleasure divisions only. The ponies and horses may cross-enter into the Pleasure divisions, and the special Hunter Division with a different rider. Champion to receive The Laura Lee Shreve Newman Memorial Perpetual Trophy, donated by Merelyn Kaye, Karin & Taylor Morrison. Entry fee: $75/division
40. Short Stirrup OF
41. Short Stirrup OF
42. Short Stirrup Under Saddle

and online with VHSA website, http://www.vhsa.com/assocprogrampg.htm.


If you would like to see the apology letter sent by the VHSA office to said trainer, I'm sure they would be more than happy to send you a copy.

So VHSA is admitting they were wrong to allow this pony to cross enter, as it clearly states that the pony should not have been allowed?

BestLegUp
Dec. 10, 2010, 11:42 PM
It was not until a protest was filed that VHSA is now saying they corrected the problem and that Clyde quickly fixed his quick decision of allowing it. So here's what I interupt that as meaning, Clyde allowed it Sunday hoping no one would notice that the pony was cross entering. It is also been told to me that the said pony, and rider have been disqualified? and that their points were taken away. Can someone please show me where it does not any longer show this kid or pony as having points from Finals?
Horseladi78 - I don't believe the information you are being fed is correct. An informal protest at the Championship Horse Show prevented the pony from cross entering into the pony hunter. But the only pending written protest, as far as I know, deals with the follow-on cross entering into the pony equitation. No fix to this error has been taken by VHSA. In fact, the only written response from VHSA so far has been to state "no action" will be taken. I don't know who is telling you that points will be stripped, because so far VHSA isn't saying that officially. So, for clarity, the VHSA hasn't even stripped the points from the rule-breaking competitor and has stated that they won't do anything against the show manager or trainers. Anyone mad yet?:mad:.

WonderGirl
Dec. 11, 2010, 10:20 AM
What was told to me is that Clyde felt bad for the trainer and child getting the wrong information on Sat and allowed the cross entering to occur Sunday.

I don't understand the sympathy for the trainers or the child. Results show this child rode another large pony for them in greens and pleasure, doing very well. If they had to do one more division, why not use that large pony? The point is, they weren't stuck. They had a way out without cheating. The child had plenty of show time without having to break the rules. These are not sympathetic actors. We and the VHSA should not be fooled.

horseladi78
Dec. 11, 2010, 10:22 AM
oh trust me BESTLEGUP, I didnt believe what was told to me about VHSA having stripped the points. Its clearly obvious thats not the case. But what gets me is this was a reply from a VHSA rep. and clearly it was a lie. Anyone think theres a problem with VHSA yet?????

QHmom
Dec. 11, 2010, 11:11 AM
The reply letter sent to the trainer, from vhsa, was put in my mail box. Which is hilarious! Like it makes a difference if I saw it or not. But the letter looked fishy to me....and the others I gladly showed it too....I did forward a copy of the letter back to VHSA and they responded with a "Who put this in your mailbox?". We all know that the trainer and owner did as they gladly posted that here! LOL!
I would be happy to forward it to anyone who wants to see it.... seems that if they dropped it in my box, they must have done it to others!
VHSA has alot to digest here...But the fact remains...Association gave permission to cheat, show manager let it happen even after verbal protests, and the trainer and owner knew the rules and did it anyways. Bet alot of horse shows will be watching the entries of the said barn now!

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 11, 2010, 12:24 PM
The reply letter sent to the trainer, from vhsa, was put in my mail box. Which is hilarious! Like it makes a difference if I saw it or not. But the letter looked fishy to me....and the others I gladly showed it too....I did forward a copy of the letter back to VHSA and they responded with a "Who put this in your mailbox?". We all know that the trainer and owner did as they gladly posted that here! LOL!
I would be happy to forward it to anyone who wants to see it.... seems that if they dropped it in my box, they must have done it to others!


What I find interesting is that the letter that was put in your mailbox was not on VHSA letterhead like the response to the protester was.... Things that make you go hummm.

QHmom
Dec. 11, 2010, 01:01 PM
Goodness "Gracious!" I think it is interesting that there was no letterhead!

fordtraktor
Dec. 11, 2010, 02:08 PM
As a cautionary tale, before anyone goes faking VHSA letters and putting them in other people's mailboxes, they should consider the mail fraud statutes. You know, the ones that make that sort of thing a felony. Don't know if that is what is happening here, but just sayin'. Ask yourself if it's really worth it, folks.

arnika
Dec. 11, 2010, 07:25 PM
The first response from the committee was to attack the protestor, improperly declare her ineligible to file a protest, and threaten to investigate her for a supposed infraction. In view of the supposed error, the committee would take no action against the Show Manager, despite the apparent mandatory language in Rule 2 ("shall be subject to disciplinary action"). Such thuggery is consistent with a corrupt organization; not with one concerned about fair play and rule of law. (‘you complain, we come after you.’ – really?!).

The emphasis in bold is mine. Couldn't help but say, this sounds exactly like the way the US government is treating Julian Assange, lol.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 12, 2010, 12:02 AM
As a cautionary tale, before anyone goes faking VHSA letters and putting them in other people's mailboxes, they should consider the mail fraud statutes. You know, the ones that make that sort of thing a felony. Don't know if that is what is happening here, but just sayin'. Ask yourself if it's really worth it, folks.

Just an FYI to the person who put the document in QHMom's mailbox--you broke the law and could be fined!
See below:

18 U.S.C. 1725 states: "Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits any mailable matter such as statements of accounts, circulars, sale bills, or other like matter, on which no postage has been paid, in any letter box established, approved, or accepted by the Postal Service for the receipt or delivery of mail matter on any mail route with intent to avoid payment of lawful postage thereon, shall for each such offense be fined under this title"

It appears that violation of this provision is an infraction, carrying a fine of not more than $5,000 for an individual, or not more than $10,000 for an organization.

DNB
Dec. 12, 2010, 01:27 AM
This situation does not surprise me one bit considering the party involved. I will also not be renewing my VHSA membership after reading about all of these problems.

QHmom
Dec. 12, 2010, 11:40 AM
Heard there were other copies of the letter sent out.....

2bayboys
Dec. 12, 2010, 12:03 PM
I have to say that the possibility of a fake apology letter is a fascinating twist to this story. It makes you wonder why it would be so important for someone to want other people to think that they were not at fault and deserved an apology.

Post the letter so we can all see it. It can't be private if it was placed in mailboxes for others to read.

DNB
Dec. 12, 2010, 04:08 PM
I have to say that the possibility of a fake apology letter is a fascinating twist to this story. It makes you wonder why it would be so important for someone to want other people to think that they were not at fault and deserved an apology.

Post the letter so we can all see it. It can't be private if it was placed in mailboxes for others to read.

It is so important to them because they have been known to break the rules before, so they probably believe that by doing they will "clear their name" from any drama. I would love to see the letter.

Brydelle Farm
Dec. 12, 2010, 04:57 PM
Heard there were other copies of the letter sent out.....

As in different versions of the "same letter"?

QHmom
Dec. 12, 2010, 06:39 PM
I have had emails that there are other copies, same as mine, going around. Letter head missing, ect...

WonderGirl
Dec. 13, 2010, 09:21 AM
So VHSA is admitting they were wrong to allow this pony to cross enter, as it clearly states that the pony should not have been allowed?

Not quite. There were two cross entering issues. The lesser one was the entering of the pony into ss and large pony hunter. The pony did not compete in large pony hunter. The letter seeks to provide cover for the trainers mistake in making the cross entering error on the entry blank. The Executive Secretary claims that she told the trainers that such cross entering was ok. When it was later determined (by people that can actually read the rule) that such cross entering is prohibited, the pony hunter division was scratched. The apology is for putting the trainers in the awkward position of having improperly entered at the show. We are to believe that the trainers, though empty headed, were pure of heart. The other cross entering, however, involves the trainers subsequently entering the pony equitation. This post entry into the pony eq, though improper for the very same cross entering prohibition, was verbally authorized by the show manager. The apology letter has nothing to do with this actual violation of the rules. It does not admit that the second and actual cross entering was wrong nor apologize/justify the Show Manager’s error.

2bayboys
Dec. 13, 2010, 09:57 AM
Let me see if I've got this straight.

Trainer asked for clarification of the rule and was told that Pony could cross enter into both Short Stirrup and Pony Hunter. Trainer was told by VHSA Representative "Yes you can".

Trainer entered both SS and Pony Hunter and was protested at the show, withdrew Pony from Pony Hunter on Saturday.

After the protest and withdrawal on Saturday, Show Manager authorized Pony to enter Pony Equitation on Sunday (still in violation of rule since Pony had already competed in Short Stirrup).

Pony showed Sunday in Pony Eq and placed second.

Subsequent protest filed regarding cross entering that occurred Sunday.

Mysterious letter lacking VHSA letterhead is placed in mailboxes; letter is allegedly from a VHSA executive apologizing for providing incorrect information regarding the allowability of cross entering in Short Stirrup and Pony Hunter (Saturday's infraction which was caught and stopped before Pony actually competed in PH), but letter made no mention of Sunday's infraction, where Pony competed in Pony Eq.

VHSA staff member expresses surprise about letter, although it is not clear if the surprise is about the letter's existence, or about the sharing of said letter.

Conclusion:
Pony clearly competed on Sunday in violation of the rule; points earned should be removed; it shouldn't take an act of Congress to make that happen.

If it is determined that Show Manager expressly allowed the violation to occur, then Show Manager should be sanctioned by VHSA.

If it is determined that a VHSA member wrote a falsified letter from VHSA and distributed it in an attempt to absolve him/herself from blame, that VHSA member should be sanctioned.

Personally I find the writing of the [possibly] fake letter to be much more disturbing than the breaking of the rules or the good ole boy system of Show Manager allowing Certain People to have leeway where other people don't rate that allowance.

If any of my description of the above is incorrect, please enlighten me. :D

QHmom
Dec. 13, 2010, 10:27 AM
Right on target...

BybeeGirl
Dec. 13, 2010, 06:34 PM
Let me see if I've got this straight.

Trainer asked for clarification of the rule and was told that Pony could cross enter into both Short Stirrup and Pony Hunter. Trainer was told by VHSA Representative "Yes you can".

Trainer entered both SS and Pony Hunter and was protested at the show, withdrew Pony from Pony Hunter on Saturday.

After the protest and withdrawal on Saturday, Show Manager authorized Pony to enter Pony Equitation on Sunday (still in violation of rule since Pony had already competed in Short Stirrup).

Pony showed Sunday in Pony Eq and placed second.

Subsequent protest filed regarding cross entering that occurred Sunday.

Mysterious letter lacking VHSA letterhead is placed in mailboxes; letter is allegedly from a VHSA executive apologizing for providing incorrect information regarding the allowability of cross entering in Short Stirrup and Pony Hunter (Saturday's infraction which was caught and stopped before Pony actually competed in PH), but letter made no mention of Sunday's infraction, where Pony competed in Pony Eq.

VHSA staff member expresses surprise about letter, although it is not clear if the surprise is about the letter's existence, or about the sharing of said letter.



I would have to add to the beginning of the very first sentence:

Even though the short stirrup cross entry rules were clearly stated in the finals show program...

Then I think you have it. At least as it has been presented here ;)

2bayboys
Dec. 13, 2010, 07:01 PM
MMMMMMM, yes, well I believe it has already been stated in this thread that some people don't have time to read all those pesky rules! :rolleyes:

BybeeGirl
Dec. 13, 2010, 08:10 PM
2BayBoys, let me try again.
What I'm trying to say is "Great summation of a 9 pg thread into a 2 paragraph post!" :)

Brydelle Farm
Dec. 13, 2010, 08:41 PM
"Great summation of a 9 pg thread into a 2 paragraph post!" :)

Ditto! ;)

QHmom
Dec. 13, 2010, 09:22 PM
AGREED!

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 14, 2010, 12:51 PM
While it really does feels like hell is freezing over..... I'm uncertain if that equates to VHSA addressing this issue or not. One can hope!!!

QHmom
Dec. 14, 2010, 04:55 PM
Hell is freezing over! THats what this is! VHSA is going to have to address this!!!

BestLegUp
Dec. 16, 2010, 06:27 PM
While I have no first hand knowledge regarding Hell, I do know that Senior officials at the VHSA are looking into the written protest. Several officials have indicated they are concerned about the situation and how it is being handled. Hopefully we will soon learn what their next steps are (such as a hearing, asking for witnesses, etc) or, preferably, what disciplinary actions they will hand down to the show manager and trainers.

FYI, I was reading what kind of sanctions the USEF hands down in the recent Equestrian magazine. An exhibitor was suspended for one month because she signed a non-member amateur card at a show, even though she was still a professional and was told by USEF staff she was ineligible. During the suspension she cannot even spectate at a USEF horse show. Any horse she owns, even partially, is inelgible to compete. Plus she was fined $750 and directed to pay the horse show management $300. Hmm, doing something against the rules, after being told you were inelgible - sound familiar? Maybe the USEF sets a good guideline for appropriate sanctions.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
While I have no first hand knowledge regarding Hell, I do know that Senior officials at the VHSA are looking into the written protest. Several officials have indicated they are concerned about the situation and how it is being handled. Hopefully we will soon learn what their next steps are (such as a hearing, asking for witnesses, etc) or, preferably, what disciplinary actions they will hand down to the show manager and trainers.

FYI, I was reading what kind of sanctions the USEF hands down in the recent Equestrian magazine. An exhibitor was suspended for one month because she signed a non-member amateur card at a show, even though she was still a professional and was told by USEF staff she was ineligible. During the suspension she cannot even spectate at a USEF horse show. Any horse she owns, even partially, is inelgible to compete. Plus she was fined $750 and directed to pay the horse show management $300. Hmm, doing something against the rules, after being told you were inelgible - sound familiar? Maybe the USEF sets a good guideline for appropriate sanctions.

This is GREAT news!!!

I have been to a USEF hearing and they take things VERY seriously. I was shocked and appalled when I saw how lackadaisically the VHSA runs their association.

justdandy
Dec. 17, 2010, 12:56 PM
BestLegUp - that IS good news. If they do follow-up and something is done, I might reconsider renewing my membership. Until then, I'll keep my moolah.:)

chunky munky
Dec. 17, 2010, 02:31 PM
Keep in mind that the VHSA is in no way affiliated with the USEF or the USHJA.

QHmom
Dec. 17, 2010, 03:46 PM
Maybe if they were, this would not have had to go to this!

Ruby G. Weber
Dec. 17, 2010, 03:50 PM
The Virginia Horse Shows Association is an affiliate of the United States Equestrian Federation. At present VHSA is not an affiliate of USHJA.

Janet
Dec. 17, 2010, 04:23 PM
The Virginia Horse Shows Association is an affiliate of the United States Equestrian Federation. At present VHSA is not an affiliate of USHJA.
I thought they were too, but I went to the USEF web site for the list of Affiliates
https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Links/associate/Default.aspx
and they are NOT listed.

Brydelle Farm
Dec. 17, 2010, 04:35 PM
I thought they were too, but I went to the USEF web site for the list of Affiliates
https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Links/associate/Default.aspx
and they are NOT listed.

From VHSA website,

"The VHSA is a member of the U.S. Equestrian Federation, the American Horse Council and the Virginia Horse Council."

perhaps they didn't renew it! ;)

2bayboys
Dec. 17, 2010, 05:28 PM
From the VHSA Rule Book:

Virginia Horse Shows Association, Incorporated
BY-LAWS

ARTICLE I
The Virginia Horse Shows Association in its status as an affiliate of the US Equestrian Federation (USEF) is bound by the nature of that affiliation to abide by the rules of the USEF. In case of a conflict, the USEF rules take precedence. Likewise, in the case of Associations affiliated with the VHSA and not the USEF, the VHSA rules take precedence in shows held in Virginia. As hereinafter employed in these by-laws the term "Horse Show" shall include any recognized horse show, whether functioning as a corporation, an unincorporated association, or under individual sponsorship.

chunky munky
Dec. 17, 2010, 06:27 PM
I would say that the USEF official list of affiliates is the valid information in this instance.

MoonLadyIsis
Dec. 17, 2010, 06:37 PM
well here's an interesting thought...Since VHSA is affiliated with USEF, is there a way to file an official complaint with USEF about the way VHSA is being run/rule infractions? I would think USEF wouldn't want to affiliated with such a poorly run program.

chunky munky
Dec. 17, 2010, 07:57 PM
Please address the previous post. As of today, VHSA is not an affilite of the USEF.

MoonLadyIsis
Dec. 17, 2010, 08:17 PM
that list is for 2011. At the TIME OF THE COMPETITION was VHSA affiliated with USEF? Rephrase for those who don't understand. Was VHSA affiliated with USEF for LAST YEAR'S competition year? (when the show in question was held)

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 18, 2010, 12:47 AM
I am going on memory here, but when I filed my protest USEF was one of the people I contacted. They were VERY interested in my protest until they found out it was an Ass. show. If it were a rated show they most definitely would have done something about it. The VHSA is an affiliate of the USEF for rated shows, but the Ass. shows are just VHSA.

That was what I got out of my memory bank...

QHmom
Dec. 18, 2010, 09:57 AM
I am in same realm with Labonniebon here. SInce this cheating occured at an associate show an recognize show, I doubt that the USEF would care. But the fact that VHSA is being run this way in general, may be of interest on some level the USEF. I, for one, hope that the VHSA does the right thing....show manager and offending trainer and owners are dealt with...

MoonLadyIsis
Dec. 18, 2010, 10:05 AM
if such bull goes on at the associate level, it probably does happen at the recognized level...it is just a matter of catching it before all traces magically disappear....

BybeeGirl
Dec. 19, 2010, 09:08 PM
Has anyone else reviewed the Associate Program rules for 2011?

http://vhsa.com/11AssociateRules.pdf


I first noticed that the recording fee for horses went from $35 to $50.

The champion/reserve part for the hunter division was a bit unclear with regards to the under saddle points. I get the top four in points over fences are eligible for champ/reserve, but I don't get the part that says, "In
addition to these points, only these four horses/ponies receive full points for ribbons won in the Under Saddle class."

Points have changed as well, now giving credit through sixth place.

WonderGirl
Dec. 20, 2010, 08:37 AM
For determining champion and reserve, the under saddle points don't count, unless the horse/pony was one of the top four in accumulating points over fences. The effect of this rule is that the hack winner who doesn't pin well over fences if at all will not be champion or reserve in a hunter division. The u/s points count for year end, just not for Ch. and Res.

LaBonnieBon
Dec. 28, 2010, 08:29 PM
Any updates???

QHmom
Dec. 29, 2010, 11:04 AM
me too!!!

Izthatrt
Dec. 29, 2010, 05:01 PM
I doubt anything will change. I protested one time(at Devon no less) 2 yr. old pony class-colt and geldings. Well, 2 yr. old colt got loose from a BNT not once, not twice, but three times. Tearing around the ring, trying to Mount other ponies, running into the fence...Was he asked to leave?? Did the pony present a danger to other ponies and handlers??ABSOLUTELY! But the BNT had one in every in hand class....If it had been me(a small time person) I'll bet I would have been shown the gate after the first mishap. The rules CLEARLY state, any horse/rider presenting a danger MUST be asked to leave the ring. I didn't go this year, but heard it happened again...very sad.

BelladonnaLily
Jan. 7, 2011, 12:50 PM
Any updates? I still haven't received a response to my email. I may try again since it's been about 6 weeks and plenty of time to type a reply.

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 7, 2011, 12:57 PM
I was just wondering the same thing today as I was sweeping the barn aisle.

How long has it been since the protest was filed?

CadieEstes
Jan. 7, 2011, 02:02 PM
Has anyone spoken directly to the trainer of this pony? Are they at the A shows enough to know it was wrong? I have to agree that the VHSA is not the blame here, possibly whomever allowed the cross entering, but I still firmly believe the trainer who knows the rules should receive some kind of suspension or warning at the least.

The VHSA as a whole does not owe an apology. The individual who allowed the pony to cross enter is the one who owes EVERYONE in that division an apology. Especially if they choose to revoke the points.

It's very disappointing to know that our association hasn't taken much action on this matter, instead of emailing, why not call the VHSA office? I plan to.

I agree if enough people continue to point out this problem, the VHSA will hopefully come up with a better system of preventing this from happening again.

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 7, 2011, 02:16 PM
Are they at the A shows enough to know it was wrong?

You can check out their website and judge for yourself. I believe their website is www.millpointfarms.com (http://www.millpointfarms.com)

Rockfish
Jan. 7, 2011, 03:53 PM
Are they at the A shows enough to know it was wrong?


Nope, they are go to Associate shows mostly, but you don't need to play at the A level to know and follow the rules.

QHmom
Jan. 7, 2011, 05:31 PM
Actually they go to A's too...did all last year

QHmom
Jan. 7, 2011, 05:35 PM
AND VHSA needs to explain that letter that was so dropped in my mail box. VHSA , Show management, trainers and owner need to apologize. I am so over the "I didnt know" line. You show recognized, local, and are trainers, then you have to have a clue. People are already keeping tabs on this barn this show season...

Mayaty02
Jan. 7, 2011, 06:29 PM
If its that barn, they show all year in the Associate (and A) shows, and at no VHSA show are you allowed to cross enter a short stirrup pony into any other division except pleasure...so it doesn't take a genius to understand that you can't do that at the finals show either. Or am I missing something here?

QHmom
Jan. 7, 2011, 07:14 PM
Yup...you got it! Not missing a thing....

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 22, 2011, 02:18 PM
For some reason, I was hopeful that VHSA would actually do something about the protest that was submitted.

I am SO disgusted at myself for renewing as soon as they sent the reminders out.

There are some really great people in the VHSA (or at least there use to be), but I am wondering if they are being corrupted by the Ass. program. It's very sad that lifelong horsemen and horsewomen would not take a stand to this blatent cheating. Cheating that was allowed by the Ass. program.

This just makes me SICK, SICK, SICK!!!!

intothewest
Jan. 22, 2011, 09:01 PM
Interesting how this thread really took off. Simple observations from a visitor to the show.

BelladonnaLily
Jan. 23, 2011, 09:54 AM
I finally received a response from Clyde.

He said that last year's rules did not specifically prohibit cross-entering between pony eq and short stirrup.

He said this year's rules would address that.

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 23, 2011, 10:40 AM
I certainly haven't read the entire VHSA Rule Book, but listed on the VHSA Associate Championship Horse Show Prize List , in the section describing the Short Stirrup Division is this little informative tidbit:
SHORT STIRRUP HUNTER(10-12) - (Sponsored by) Hazelwild Farm - Fredericksburg, VA
Open to junior members who have not reached their 13th birthday as of December 1, 2009. To be judged as a Hunter Division. The Champion and Reserve must have completed at least one jumping class (fences approx. 18”). The riders may cross-enter into the pleasure divisions only. The ponies and horses may cross-enter into the Pleasure divisions, and the Special Hunter Division with a different rider.

Which seems fairly easy to understand (I don't think I would have had to call anyone to clarify this statement for me). If someone is a trainer, and acting as the responsible party for entering clients or at the very least advising clients on entry regulations, I would perhaps read the class/division specifications.

Above is what was printed in the VHSA prizelist. Either I never learned how to read, or Clyde is drinking that purple Kool-Aid.

If his response is truly the case, he should have used that excuse when I filed my protest. Instead, he said the rules were not clear and therefore were not going to honor my protest.

This is ridiculous!!!

P.S. There is a FB group "Cheating in the VHSA"... look it up. :yes:

RNB
Jan. 23, 2011, 11:44 AM
I finally received a response from Clyde.

He said that last year's rules did not specifically prohibit cross-entering between pony eq and short stirrup.

He said this year's rules would address that.

:rolleyes: Almost as good as the excuse, er, response I recieved when I called concerning two people who should have been banned since the USEF had already banned them.

Brydelle Farm
Jan. 23, 2011, 11:53 AM
I finally received a response from Clyde.

He said that last year's rules did not specifically prohibit cross-entering between pony eq and short stirrup.

He said this year's rules would address that.

Wow, really?! What a crock!

Isn't there an obvious conflict of interest having CP review the protest in which he was one of the major players?

barnie
Jan. 23, 2011, 12:07 PM
This is just silly. Why can't someone just say they were wrong? They made a mistake. They will fix it. The Associate program is a cash cow for the VHSA but they do not want to have to take on running it. Well, it seems like if they want to reap the benefits, they should have to do the work involved in running it and keeping it fair, ie/policing it. Come on guys, it is time to step up. All this continued condoned cheating is past embarrassing.

RNB
Jan. 23, 2011, 12:37 PM
This is just silly. Why can't someone just say they were wrong? They made a mistake. They will fix it. The Associate program is a cash cow for the VHSA but they do not want to have to take on running it. Well, it seems like if they want to reap the benefits, they should have to do the work involved in running it and keeping it fair, ie/policing it. Come on guys, it is time to step up. All this continued condoned cheating is past embarrassing.

Where is that "Like" button? :winkgrin:

MoonLadyIsis
Jan. 23, 2011, 12:59 PM
Where is that "Like" button? :winkgrin:

agreed...these forums need a like button..... I have yet to register myself or my green bean for vhsa yet..and the more I read about this stuff..the less likely I will

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 23, 2011, 02:30 PM
Since I already renewed for this year and have not done my coggins yet..... I will change some names and have green beans again! :yes:

Others should consider doing it as well!!

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 23, 2011, 04:23 PM
Jusf to clarify, the FB page is for people who are against cheating. It is not for those who cheat or have been protested.

WonderGirl
Jan. 23, 2011, 05:11 PM
I finally received a response from Clyde.

He said that last year's rules did not specifically prohibit cross-entering between pony eq and short stirrup.

He said this year's rules would address that.


Is the pony eq. a VHSA pointed division?

2bayboys
Jan. 23, 2011, 05:19 PM
I finally received a response from Clyde.

He said that last year's rules did not specifically prohibit cross-entering between pony eq and short stirrup.

He said this year's rules would address that.

What utter BS. The prize list stated that short stirrup ponies and horses could cross enter into pleasure, and into Special hunter with a different rider. It did not specifically state that SS mounts could not cross enter into working hunter either, but we all know that to be the case, because we can READ.

How very disappointing. We expect better from our governing body. :no:

BelladonnaLily
Jan. 23, 2011, 05:38 PM
Is the pony eq. a VHSA pointed division?

Yes.

His email is on my work email...I will copy the entire email here tomorrow if anyone would like to read his exact words.

Mayaty02
Jan. 23, 2011, 06:39 PM
that's ridiculous! I'm speechless.

WonderGirl
Jan. 23, 2011, 09:50 PM
Yes.

His email is on my work email...I will copy the entire email here tomorrow if anyone would like to read his exact words.

Well then the rule is most certainly VERY specific prohibiting cross-entering, nice try :winkgrin: Looking forward to reading the e-mail

WonderGirl
Jan. 23, 2011, 09:57 PM
Jusf to clarify, the FB page is for people who are against cheating. It is not for those who cheat or have been protested.

:yes:

BelladonnaLily
Jan. 24, 2011, 10:32 AM
Here is part of the email from Clyde pertaining to the cross-entering quoted:

" the second email concerns cross entering. to answer your question for the 2011 associate show year short stirrup riders, ponies and horses may not cross enter into any other vhsa associate division or a vhsa associate rated equitation class with the exception of pony pleasure or pleasure horse at any show in which they exhibit in the short stirrup division. this differs slightly from the 2010 rule which did not specifically include the equitation classes. as always cross entering rules do not apply to any divisions or classes that are not part of the vhsa associate program. "

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 24, 2011, 10:36 AM
Thanks for posting BellaDonnaLily.

It is time for Broom Aerobics!! One and two and three and four...

He makes no sense.... NONE!

MoonLadyIsis
Jan. 24, 2011, 11:07 AM
wow....it sure is starting to smell like poop in VA (and its not just because of the chicken litter they spread on the fields this week). I would love to actually have a conversation with these people...as in, on the phone...I would love to hear them/see them attempt to talk their way out of this...perhaps a phone call is in order....

QHmom
Jan. 24, 2011, 11:55 AM
WEll WEll WEll....not over by a long shot.....

LaBonnieBon
Jan. 31, 2011, 10:22 AM
I got it!! Salahi-ism!

WonderGirl
Feb. 8, 2011, 01:50 PM
This is very disappointing VHSA. Justice delayed is justice denied. :mad: Does the VHSA think that it's members will just forget this issue? Lying and cheating are very important matters that are not to be taken lightly. I implore the VHSA to step up to the plate and set a good example soon. The next generation is watching closely.

skrgirl
Feb. 9, 2011, 07:51 AM
I finally received a response from Clyde.

He said that last year's rules did not specifically prohibit cross-entering between pony eq and short stirrup.

He said this year's rules would address that.

What a load of BS. We specifically asked two years ago when the rule had just changed about crossing entering from pony hunter to SS and were told no, eq was counted as well.

Peace out VHSA, I will spend my money elsewhere.

2bayboys
Feb. 9, 2011, 09:38 AM
What a load of BS. We specifically asked two years ago when the rule had just changed about crossing entering from pony hunter to SS and were told no, eq was counted as well.

Peace out VHSA, I will spend my money elsewhere.

Ah, but skrgirl, apparently that rule applied only to YOU, and not to certain speshul other people. :uhoh:

LaBonnieBon
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:20 AM
The more I think about it, the more realize Clyde is like Tareq Salahi. The rules never apply to him and the way they apply to others depends on who you are as well as his mood. When caught redhanded he talkes in circle after circle. Complete BS if I ever saw it!!

I wonder if Clyde will hold his Donkey and Mule Show at Oasis Winery???

LaBonnieBon
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:23 AM
And this makes me wonder if the shows that hire him to judge really know how he runs the VHSA?? If he could not be trusted in the VHSA, why would anyone want to pay him to judge a show??

MoonLadyIsis
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:32 AM
Perhaps that is the way to deal with this, hurt Clyde where it hurts the most...in the personal wallet.....

Jumperprincess
Feb. 9, 2011, 11:32 AM
Gee-I thought for a minute this thread was about USEF

horseladi78
Feb. 9, 2011, 12:57 PM
The VBHSA, as in virginia beach horse show association, loves loves Clyde and Michelle as judges. Heck he's always judging for them. So add to certain trainers showing up at finals and having certain rules not apply to them and you start to see the clear picture..... I wish VHSA would get hit in their pockets but I'm not so sure many trainers or riders are following or not supporting VHSA. I for one am not giving them a dime of my money. Not a dime. Now if others would do and follow the same, maybe then the money would be enough of a hit to their pockets. But as I see it, most trainers still pay VHSA to host Associate shows. Most riders will not go to a show that is not associate rated. So how do you host a show and get people to come if you don't wish to support VHSA and pay their fees for putting their name on the prize list? I plan on showing, just could careless about the points so therefore did not renew my membership. But really how can we derail the VHSA????? It seems they are the one and only association any trainers in Virginia are stuck with....

LaBonnieBon
Feb. 19, 2011, 01:20 AM
Does anyone want to place a bet as to when the VHSA will actually respond to this protest?? It has been 3 months.....

intothewest
Feb. 21, 2011, 12:20 PM
We are coming to VA this summer for a vacation and plan to let the kids do some shows. I can tell you that we will not go to a vhsa sanctioned show. Ideally, if the show managers in Va banned together, and decided to not be sanctioned, I still feel the turn out would not be hindered. Maybe that is one way to hit them as you say, in the pocket?
3 monthes to respond? Is vhsa so busy with work? Interesting!

LTLFLDF
Feb. 21, 2011, 08:21 PM
Intothewest - please do not let this ridiculous thread sway you from showing in Virginia while you are hear. I doubt you will find many shows worth going to that are not part of the VHSA/USEF or VHSA Associate program.

I am fairly certain the VHSA has responded.

I put the management in the same situation in 2009. We weren't trying to get over on anyone. I was coaching a short stirrup child who had been waiting for 2 years to go the "Finals". The first year no horse, the second year on Nov 1st, 2008 her horse got kicked and had to have surgery followed by 3 months of stall rest. In 2009, 2 weeks before finals her horse got a BAD suspensory tear. When they did the surgery to harvest stem cells, he coded. (AKA died on the table) They were able to get him back but no horse show once again. So I asked Clyde if he would make a special consideration and let her show a horse that I was showing in the specials. That year the prize list said not cross entering between specials and anything else except pleasure. We were not trying to be sneaky or lie or cheat. I was just trying to make a kids day. (We ended up not showing - her nerves were to bad)

I truly believe that everyone who were involved had good intents, to let the kids show. We are talking about short stirrup and pony hunters. Yes we need to follow the rules but there are always exceptions. When those who felt they were "wronged" brought it to managements attention the points were corrected so they would not be "hurt" by allowing the child to show.

I agree with someone earlier who said if you don't like it vote with your pocket book. To that I say PLEASE do because I show because I love it, I prefer "trolls" and those who want to keep drama going, to stay away.

Brydelle Farm
Feb. 21, 2011, 11:03 PM
I put the management in the same situation in 2009. We weren't trying to get over on anyone. I was coaching a short stirrup child who had been waiting for 2 years to go the "Finals". The first year no horse, the second year on Nov 1st, 2008 her horse got kicked and had to have surgery followed by 3 months of stall rest. In 2009, 2 weeks before finals her horse got a BAD suspensory tear. When they did the surgery to harvest stem cells, he coded. (AKA died on the table) They were able to get him back but no horse show once again. So I asked Clyde if he would make a special consideration and let her show a horse that I was showing in the specials. That year the prize list said not cross entering between specials and anything else except pleasure. We were not trying to be sneaky or lie or cheat. I was just trying to make a kids day. (We ended up not showing - her nerves were to bad)

.... Yes we need to follow the rules but there are always exceptions. When those who felt they were "wronged" brought it to managements attention the points were corrected so they would not be "hurt" by allowing the child to show.

While my heart goes out to your student, I respectfully disagree. There are NOT exceptions to these rules, unless I'm missing something in the rule book.

As per your example, it would have been reasonable & very understanding for you to NOT show the horse in Special Htr to allow the kid to show legally in SS Htr. Special Htr isn't even a VHSA Assoc division. So he/she can not only gain experience in the show ring but also in good sportsmanship.

"What seems like the right thing to do could also be the hardest thing you have ever done in your life. It’s always worth it." ~Unknown Source~

BelladonnaLily
Feb. 22, 2011, 09:01 AM
Agree with Brydelle.

If that child had shown, the message would have been "If bad stuff happens, we'll just get someone to break the rules for you."

Sucks that the child had some tough breaks, but MY child has to follow the rules and trust me, I am a relative nobody so if my daughter's short stirrup pony goes lame, Clyde isn't going to "bend" the rules so she can show my other daughter's pony hunter. Not gonna happen, nor should it.

This is a sport with rules. "Making a kid's day" isn't part of the plan. Have your children participated in other sports? Little League? LAX? They don't break rules to "make a kid's day."

Sorry, but we just recently experienced blatant cheating at an AIRC meet so I have a bad taste in my mouth about people that think breaking the rules is no big deal...

justdandy
Feb. 22, 2011, 09:21 AM
Intothewest - please do not let this ridiculous thread sway you from showing in Virginia while you are hear. I doubt you will find many shows worth going to that are not part of the VHSA/USEF or VHSA Associate program.

I am fairly certain the VHSA has responded.

I put the management in the same situation in 2009. We weren't trying to get over on anyone. I was coaching a short stirrup child who had been waiting for 2 years to go the "Finals". The first year no horse, the second year on Nov 1st, 2008 her horse got kicked and had to have surgery followed by 3 months of stall rest. In 2009, 2 weeks before finals her horse got a BAD suspensory tear. When they did the surgery to harvest stem cells, he coded. (AKA died on the table) They were able to get him back but no horse show once again. So I asked Clyde if he would make a special consideration and let her show a horse that I was showing in the specials. That year the prize list said not cross entering between specials and anything else except pleasure. We were not trying to be sneaky or lie or cheat. I was just trying to make a kids day. (We ended up not showing - her nerves were to bad)

I truly believe that everyone who were involved had good intents, to let the kids show. We are talking about short stirrup and pony hunters. Yes we need to follow the rules but there are always exceptions. When those who felt they were "wronged" brought it to managements attention the points were corrected so they would not be "hurt" by allowing the child to show.

I agree with someone earlier who said if you don't like it vote with your pocket book. To that I say PLEASE do because I show because I love it, I prefer "trolls" and those who want to keep drama going, to stay away.

Are you kidding? This thread is "ridiculous"? Are you the one who filed the protest? If not, how are you "fairly certain" VHSA responded?

Rules are NOT meant to be bent. If so, then why have rules at all? I'm sorry, but your "reasoning" for cheating is ridiculous.

Trixie
Feb. 22, 2011, 10:48 AM
So I asked Clyde if he would make a special consideration and let her show a horse that I was showing in the specials. That year the prize list said not cross entering between specials and anything else except pleasure. We were not trying to be sneaky or lie or cheat. I was just trying to make a kids day. (We ended up not showing - her nerves were to bad)


I truly believe that everyone who were involved had good intents, to let the kids show. We are talking about short stirrup and pony hunters. Yes we need to follow the rules but there are always exceptions. When those who felt they were "wronged" brought it to managements attention the points were corrected so they would not be "hurt" by allowing the child to show.

Exactly what the hell do you think you’re teaching these children? That they’re special snowflakes and deserve to be an exception to the rules, because… they’re special snowflakes?

Good lord. Heaven help them when they get out in the real world.

Mayaty02
Feb. 22, 2011, 11:03 AM
agreed, the reason for the "exception" doesn't matter to me in the slightest. The rules are the rules because we needed...rules! If you, LTL.... really wanted the kid to show, you would have taken your horse out of special hunters or found her another horse to ride, like the rest of the rule abiding participants. Or maybe, she could have shown your horse in the pleasure, still gets her the experience of showing there doesn't it? But also doesn't break the rules. The idea behind rules becomes grossly unfair once "exceptions" are allowed.

Jack16
Feb. 22, 2011, 11:15 AM
Exactly what the hell do you think you’re teaching these children? That they’re special snowflakes and deserve to be an exception to the rules, because… they’re special snowflakes?

Good lord. Heaven help them when they get out in the real world.

I have to agree with Trixie. It sucks that the kid's horse was lame a whole bunch of times before finals but welcome to the sport. The rules are the rules and you don't get to break them because you feel like a kid got a rough deal.

LaBonnieBon
Feb. 22, 2011, 11:54 AM
Wait a minute.... one year my horse could not show at the final show because she had bastard strangles. The substitute horse I was going to ride came down with strangles, too. How come no one made an exception for poor little me???? Hell, I could not even get Clyde to consider the protest I filed at that show. Seems the rules were unclear that year, too, and were bent in his favor.

Yep, a lesson barn in the area thought it was fine to keep showing as long as they only took the horses that were not sick, even though they lived with the horses that had strangles. Cost me $16,000 to save my horse's life. I think I should have been given some sportsmanship award that year, but I got nothing but vet bills.

Greg
Feb. 22, 2011, 09:47 PM
Compassion and empathy are part of sportsmanship! My kids play soccer - if the other team has only 9 or 10 players show up, we also choose to only play with 9 or 10 players. I have seen high school teams deliberately kick a ball out of bounds to stop play if a ref made an obviously bad call. If a childs pony DIES right before finals, I think it is perfectly appropriate to bend the rules to allow her to ride.
It would actually teach some SENSITIVITY, KINDNESS, and COMPASSION, to other kids! The lesson would be about raising eachother up and doing what is kind and decent. This "Life is hard, suck it up." attitude is being taught through actions such as this protest. "Don't be kind - they're cheaters!!!!", is actually a really crappy lesson, and is the grassroots to what is wrong with society as a whole today. This is short stirrup - allowing this child to ride could have helped her out of a really dark place. Doesn't anyone care about that?
If my child was competing in the SS division - I would have been pleased to have the LITTLE GIRL who suffered such a loss be allowed to ride. Furthermore, I would have whooped like crazy when she finished her trips. If she beat my kid on a borrowed pony that was amazing, good for her!!!! She did not PLAN on having her pony get injured, and die. It was not an elaborate scheme to be the ruler of the Short Stirrupers. It was tragic.

It is very sad that in our quest to weed out rule breakers, we have forgotten how to bend a little in order to help out a fellow horseman, or in this case, small child. Is winning a ribbon worth denying this girl some comfort? Would it have hurt people that badly to allow this child a chance to compete?

meupatdoes
Feb. 22, 2011, 09:57 PM
It is very sad that in our quest to weed out rule breakers, we have forgotten how to bend a little in order to help out a fellow horseman, or in this case, small child. Is winning a ribbon worth denying this girl some comfort? Would it have hurt people that badly to allow this child a chance to compete?

In the case of this conflict, the rules did not have to be bent.
The pony did not HAVE to cross enter.

If we want the little kid to get to ride so bad, awesome. Do the sportsmanly thing and withdraw the pony from the conflicting class so kiddo gets the go ahead.

Another non-rule breaking sportsmanly thing to do is for another person to lend out an unconflicted pony.

In LTDFTL or whoever it was's comment, they put management in the conflict position because they wanted horse to go in BOTH the special hunters AND the conficting kiddo class. The argument in this case is not, "We are bending the rules so the KID can ride", it is why exactly are we bending the rules so that LTDLSF's horse can still go in the Specials? Would it have hurt LSD so much to sit out the specials so this kid could rule-abidingly compete?

If she wants to help out the kiddo so bad do it at her own sacrifice of entering her horse in the special division, not sacrificing the rules of the show for everyone else.

Same deal for whoever OP was talking about here.
Don't make everyone else look the other way so that you can "do someone a good turn" without actually sacrificing one horse show division yourself. If the kid needs to do this class so bad, withdraw from the conflicting one and there is no problemo.

Mayaty02
Feb. 22, 2011, 10:21 PM
In the case of this conflict, the rules did not have to be bent.
The pony did not HAVE to cross enter.

If we want the little kid to get to ride so bad, awesome. Do the sportsmanly thing and withdraw the pony from the conflicting class so kiddo gets the go ahead.

Another non-rule breaking sportsmanly thing to do is for another person to lend out an unconflicted pony.

In LTDFTL or whoever it was's comment, they put management in the conflict position because they wanted horse to go in BOTH the special hunters AND the conficting kiddo class. The argument in this case is not, "We are bending the rules so the KID can ride", it is why exactly are we bending the rules so that LTDLSF's horse can still go in the Specials? Would it have hurt LSD so much to sit out the specials so this kid could rule-abidingly compete?

If she wants to help out the kiddo so bad do it at her own sacrifice of entering her horse in the special division, not sacrificing the rules of the show for everyone else.

Same deal for whoever OP was talking about here.
Don't make everyone else look the other way so that you can "do someone a good turn" without actually sacrificing one horse show division yourself. If the kid needs to do this class so bad, withdraw from the conflicting one and there is no problemo.
DING DING DING...hammer meet nail (on the head)... :D
exactly. The trainer should have pulled the horse out of the conflicting classes if she really wanted the kid to ride in the show. So I guess the expectation is that everyone else in the SS division has to sacrifice by letting a conflicted horse show, whereas the trainer didn't feel it was important enough to scratch from her own classes? HMMMM...

Brydelle Farm
Feb. 22, 2011, 10:23 PM
Compassion and empathy are part of sportsmanship! ....
It would actually teach some SENSITIVITY, KINDNESS, and COMPASSION, to other kids! The lesson would be about raising eachother up and doing what is kind and decent. ......
It is very sad that in our quest to weed out rule breakers, we have forgotten how to bend a little in order to help out a fellow horseman, or in this case, small child. Is winning a ribbon worth denying this girl some comfort? Would it have hurt people that badly to allow this child a chance to compete?

I have ALOT of compassion and empathy for her, BUT breaking the rules doesn't express that.

As I pointed out previous as well as several subsequent posts, breaking the rules wasn't necessary to allow this SS kid to show.

Sportsmanship is keeping your chin up when you have bad luck and rooting for your fellow competitors even if you can't compete, as well as following the rules just as they have even in the face of adversity.

LaBonnieBon
Feb. 22, 2011, 10:33 PM
Uh... people are not being as evil as you think.... the pony is still alive!

justdandy
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:18 AM
Compassion and empathy are part of sportsmanship! My kids play soccer - if the other team has only 9 or 10 players show up, we also choose to only play with 9 or 10 players. I have seen high school teams deliberately kick a ball out of bounds to stop play if a ref made an obviously bad call. If a childs pony DIES right before finals, I think it is perfectly appropriate to bend the rules to allow her to ride.
It would actually teach some SENSITIVITY, KINDNESS, and COMPASSION, to other kids! The lesson would be about raising eachother up and doing what is kind and decent. This "Life is hard, suck it up." attitude is being taught through actions such as this protest. "Don't be kind - they're cheaters!!!!", is actually a really crappy lesson, and is the grassroots to what is wrong with society as a whole today. This is short stirrup - allowing this child to ride could have helped her out of a really dark place. Doesn't anyone care about that?
If my child was competing in the SS division - I would have been pleased to have the LITTLE GIRL who suffered such a loss be allowed to ride. Furthermore, I would have whooped like crazy when she finished her trips. If she beat my kid on a borrowed pony that was amazing, good for her!!!! She did not PLAN on having her pony get injured, and die. It was not an elaborate scheme to be the ruler of the Short Stirrupers. It was tragic.

It is very sad that in our quest to weed out rule breakers, we have forgotten how to bend a little in order to help out a fellow horseman, or in this case, small child. Is winning a ribbon worth denying this girl some comfort? Would it have hurt people that badly to allow this child a chance to compete?


Uhhhh....Greg - read the part I put in bold below from LTLFLDF's post. The horse died on the table and they were able to bring him back. The child didn't lose the horse.


. . . In 2009, 2 weeks before finals her horse got a BAD suspensory tear. When they did the surgery to harvest stem cells, he coded. (AKA died on the table) They were able to get him back but no horse show once again. So I asked Clyde if he would make a special consideration and let her show a horse that I was showing in the specials. That year the prize list said not cross entering between specials and anything else except pleasure. We were not trying to be sneaky or lie or cheat. I was just trying to make a kids day. (We ended up not showing - her nerves were to bad).

BelladonnaLily
Feb. 23, 2011, 09:37 AM
Um Greg, the competitor that this thread is actually about did not have a dying pony. Trainer just wanted things to go a certain way for their kid and since they knew someone, they tried to make it happen.

And LTF's pony didn't die either, but it sounds like the kid did have some rough breaks. Stinks, but it's part of life.

IMHO, kids are so spoiled rotten because someone smooths every damn thing over for them and "makes it okay". It has nothing to do with compassion or empathy. It has to do with letting children learn how to handle disappointment and that the world doesn't revolve around them and sometimes shit happens and there's nothing you can do about it. How do we expect them to handle this in adulthood (which this generation is expected to hit at about age 33 :no:) if parents don't let them experience it as a child?

As someone else said, trainer could have given up her special hunter trips for the child. Or found another pony...sounds like the pony's health issues didn't just pop up the night before the show. But no, it's easier to break the rules that everyone else is following so that you don't have to inconvenience yourself :rolleyes: Great lessons...

Trixie
Feb. 23, 2011, 10:52 AM
It would actually teach some SENSITIVITY, KINDNESS, and COMPASSION, to other kids! The lesson would be about raising eachother up and doing what is kind and decent. This "Life is hard, suck it up." attitude is being taught through actions such as this protest. "Don't be kind - they're cheaters!!!!", is actually a really crappy lesson, and is the grassroots to what is wrong with society as a whole today. This is short stirrup - allowing this child to ride could have helped her out of a really dark place. Doesn't anyone care about that?
If my child was competing in the SS division - I would have been pleased to have the LITTLE GIRL who suffered such a loss be allowed to ride. Furthermore, I would have whooped like crazy when she finished her trips. If she beat my kid on a borrowed pony that was amazing, good for her!!!! She did not PLAN on having her pony get injured, and die. It was not an elaborate scheme to be the ruler of the Short Stirrupers. It was tragic.



It is very sad that in our quest to weed out rule breakers, we have forgotten how to bend a little in order to help out a fellow horseman, or in this case, small child. Is winning a ribbon worth denying this girl some comfort? Would it have hurt people that badly to allow this child a chance to compete?

Oh, such sanctimonious melodrama!

And truly? What a load of crap.

The child in question’s pony didn’t die, it was unable to show. And if the parent in LTLFLDF’s story wanted to “help that child out of a dark place” the correct answer is not to enter in the specials, or to find another pony. That would be the sportsmanlike thing to do.

No one is saying “don’t be kind” – I would happily offer the child the ride on my horse were I in a position to do so, and I know many others on this board would - as long as it didn’t come at the expense of the other children entered. It’s not about being kind to one child, it’s about being fair to all the children. And bending the rules for one child means that things are unfair to all the other children, since the rules are supposed to be an equalizer. Because they’re supposed to apply to everyone. That’s the point of rules.

The child in question had a trainer or parent with an available horse. And in the OP, nobody’s pony died. So we’re not exactly preventing some poor children with dead ponies from showing here – we’re just making excuses for people who think it’s acceptable to bend the rules to suit their needs.

But it’s okay, because the VHSA tells us that the rules don’t apply to everyone. And a lot of people have a problem with this, because it enables people to cheat. And you’re saying that’s totally okay with you, because if we don’t let people cheat, we’re insensitive, unkind, and uncompassionate. Screw the rules, and the other children that followed them.

I really have to disagree with your mindset and your ethics.

Everythingbutwings
Feb. 23, 2011, 10:57 AM
Oh, such sanctimonious melodrama!

And truly? What a load of crap.

...It’s not about being kind to one child, it’s about being fair to all the children. And bending the rules for one child means that things are unfair to all the other children, since the rules are supposed to be an equalizer. Because they’re supposed to apply to everyone. That’s the point of rules...

...But it’s okay, because the VHSA tells us that the rules don’t apply to everyone. And a lot of people have a problem with this, because it enables people to cheat. And you’re saying that’s totally okay with you, because if we don’t let people cheat, we’re insensitive, unkind, and uncompassionate. Screw the rules, and the other children that followed them.

I really have to disagree with your mindset and your ethics.

Very well said! :yes:

meupatdoes
Feb. 23, 2011, 11:15 AM
Oh, such sanctimonious melodrama!

And truly? What a load of crap.

OMG YES.

A+

LaBonnieBon
Feb. 23, 2011, 11:17 AM
Oh, such sanctimonious melodrama!

And truly? What a load of crap.

Babs would be so proud!!! :winkgrin: