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View Full Version : Pedigree connections--Relic, Blue Larkspur, Gem Twist, RAN, Primitive Rising



vineyridge
Nov. 16, 2010, 09:07 AM
Relic and Blue Larkspur are very closely related in the damline. Blue Larkspur's sire was Black Servant out of a daughter of Padua. Padua had a tail female granddaughter Vaila. Vaila was the dam of Blossom Time by North Star, Blue Larkspur's dam. Vaila was also the dam of Bridal Colors by Black Toney, and Bridal Colors was the dam of Relic. Vaila was also the dam of Blind Date by Black Toney, to whom Coldly Noble traces tail female. Coldly Noble was the dam of Gem Twist, and she was by Double Jay, grandson of Black Toney.

Do we see a mare line that nicked well with Black Toney and reliably passed on the jump? I think we do. Just one of Blue Larkspur's descendants was the horse, Bold Minstrel who was an Pan Am event horse and then became an Olympic show jumper. Blue Larkspur was his tail male grandsire. Relic is still very much alive in sport horse breeding in Europe and for steeplechasers through his female descendants.

So if you ever find a TB with this combination reasonably close, it's probably going to be a good sport horse candidate.

ZIL
Nov. 16, 2010, 10:49 AM
My mare has the Blue Larkspur far back...through Buckpasser, so I imagine that there are several people on COTH that might find this combination you are talking about. What are some well known horses in the Relic line? So far I am not seeing any in my mare's pedigree.

vineyridge
Nov. 16, 2010, 10:57 AM
Olden Times
Relance, the dam of both Relko and Reliance.
Buisson Ardent
The latter two are found in Europe in particular. There are many more. In Europe, he's especially famous as a broodmare sire.

carolprudm
Nov. 16, 2010, 11:31 AM
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/smart+lil

unfortunately she has decided she is done foaling

TKR
Nov. 16, 2010, 12:08 PM
Yep, that's why I've held on to my daughter and granddaughter of my foundation mare. They don't have Relic, but have most of his "pedigree" and lots of crosses to Black Toney/Blue Larkspur lines and others that are crossed alot which are the "old", proven lines so important and hard to find.
PennyG

vineyridge
Nov. 16, 2010, 02:57 PM
I guess in a way this is what the Holsteiner people would call breeding back on stamm, but they are also tightly connected in the sire lines.

Anyway, it's an interesting breeding stategy that has much to recommend it.

FLIPPED HER HALO
Nov. 16, 2010, 03:29 PM
My boy has Relic 6 generations back. I’d done some research after reading William Micklems blog that time. My pedigree notes are after the names he listed below.

He had said: there are ten names in particular that should seriously brighten your day if you find a liberal sprinkling of them on BOTH sides of the back pedigree of your horse:

1 - GALOPIN (1872 - UK, the sire of St Simon) (4x both sides combined)
2 - ST SIMON (1881 - UK, sire of Chaucer) (8x both sides combined)
3 - BAY RONALD (1893 - UK, sire of Rondeau, Dark Ronald & Bayardo; G sire of Teddy) (3x both sides combined)
4 - RONDEAU (1900 - UK) (5x both sides combined)
5 - CHAUCER (1900 – UK, grandsire of Hyperion, Pharos & Fairway) (5x damline)
6 - DARK RONALD (1905 - UK, sire of Son In Law) (7x both sides combined)
7 - BAYARDO (1906, grandsire of Hyperion) (9x both sides combined)
8 - FAIR PLAY (1905 - USA, sire of Display the damsire of both Native Dancer and Bold Ruler) (2x both sides)
9 - THE TETRARCH (1911 – Ireland) (8x both sides combined)
10 - SON IN LAW (1911 - Grandsire of Cottage Son & Furioso ) NONE

...and 10 more slightly more modern thoroughbreds which connect to these sires...

1 - TEDDY (1913 – France & USA) (6x sire line)
2 - ORANGE PEEL (1919 – France), NONE
3 - HURRY ON (1913 – UK - the sire of Precipitation), (1x dam line)
4 - PHALARIS (1913 – UK - the sire of full brothers Pharos and Fairway) (9x dam line)
5 - BLANDFORD (1919 – Ireland - the sire of Blenheim - 1927) (4x both sides combined)
6 - TOURBILLON (1928 – France - the sire of Djebel - 1937) (5x dam line only)
7 - PHAROS (1920 - son of Phalaris, full brother of Fairway) (12x both sides combined)
8 - FAIRWAY (1925 - son of Phalaris, full brother of Pharos) NONE
9 – HYPERION (1930 – UK - sire of jumping sires Owen Tudor, Hornbeam, Alibhai, High Hat, Khaled, Aristophanes, & Heliopolis, among many others.) (1x sire line)
10 - PRECIPITATION (1933 - UK, son of Hurry On, sire of Furioso) (1x dam line)

I plan on eventing my boy when he grows up. William had reviewed his pedigree and said it was a great combination and really liked that he has Sacremento Song in it as well.
The pedigree stuff is really fascinating. I’ve been researching back on my boy.

M. O'Connor
Nov. 16, 2010, 05:34 PM
My mare has the Blue Larkspur far back...through Buckpasser, so I imagine that there are several people on COTH that might find this combination you are talking about. What are some well known horses in the Relic line? So far I am not seeing any in my mare's pedigree.

Through Buckpasser?

Hmmm....yup, there it is...Blue Larkspur. Viney?

vineyridge
Nov. 16, 2010, 06:35 PM
William Micklem is British, so he wasn't aware of the Fair Play line, which is an American specialty. That's the line for Man O'War, Discovery (sire for the dams of Native Dancer, Bold Ruler, Intent and one other major sire whose name escapes me at the moment.), Chance Play and a few more really top horses who have proved themselves in sport. Even Seabiscuit was a Fair Play.

That's just about the last active line to Matchem left anywhere in the world.

Ogden Phipps who bred Busanda bought many of the mares that were sold in the Col. E. R. Bradley/Idle Hour dispersal in 1946 or 1947, and that's probably how he got Busanda's dam. Colonel Bradley owned Black Toney, and all his horse's names began with B. I know he owned La Troienne, and he owned Vaila, and he pretty only used his own stallions Like Black Toney, Black Servant, Balladier, and Blue Larkspur on his mares. However, La Troienne was sold eventually to Greentree Stud, but I don't know if she had any produce after the sale.

Just looked. She was in foal to Blue Larkspur for another very good daughter when she was sold at the age of 21. She was bred again to a different sire line for a foal that was very forgettable, then retired.

The La Troienne/Black Toney foals were amazing, and her female descendants were, as a rule, superb broodmares, and some of them were also very good race mares. Businesslike, Busanda's dam, was not one of those and neither was La Troienne. Busanda ran her heart out and got better as she got older. There were more than 800 stakes winners from La Troienne's descendants when the TB Heritage portrait was done, and she's still chugging along in tail female in stakes winners. Just an amazing mare.

selah
Nov. 17, 2010, 12:10 AM
I recently discussed on of my TB mare's pedigree in toying with the idea of breeding her to a TB stallion with the same tail female line. Her dam's damsire is Olden Times, a Relic son.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/camass

I recently had an "ah-ha!" moment when I discovered that the 4* TB event horse, Sloopy, has Olden Times & In Reality on his sire side with a tail female line going straight to Blue Larkspur daughter, Heavenly Blue.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sloopy

Info on Sloopy:
http://www.johnwilliamseventing.com/sloopy.html

There is a TB broodie being offered for sale who is a uterine sibling to Sloopy, with sireline to Teddy (that I would dearly love to have!)
http://www.warmbloods-for-sale.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=26059&UserID=693

selah
Nov. 17, 2010, 01:17 PM
Just ran across this pedigree where someone bred their Buckpasser/Olden Times (etc.) mare to the Trakehner Silver Twist...whose damsire is Good Twist.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=RYTHEM+TWIST&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
I think this is the same mare's 2009 colt (Rhinestone) by Rosenthal (though the spelling is a little off)...video looks like a nice (not very flappable!) youngster:
http://www.knollmandressage.com/Sale-Horses.html

Heliodoro
Nov. 17, 2010, 04:49 PM
These "history" pedigree threads are SO interesting. I just looked up my guys pedigree, holy cow he's got some of these names (granted 5+ gens back) many times over, but NOT linebred. Hyperion, Fair Play, Phalaris, St Simon, Chaucer... Goober's got some old time royalty back there! SO cool! For a while, I thought his only claim to fame from lineage was his grandsire, Halo. Guess I was really in the dark!

Check him out! I'm very proud of my modern TB who has NO Mr.P, Native Dancer OR Northern Dancer. Granted this most likely from being bred in Argentina :D !

http://www.pedigreequery.com/for+gain

TKR
Nov. 17, 2010, 06:33 PM
So, what stallions would be useful with mares rich in these bloodlines? What about the Gem Twist clone or Triple Twist? Has anyone scanned the Bloodhorse and TB Times Stallion Registers for possibilities? Of course, the SF's have some stallions that would correlate also. I know and agree there is more to matching than the pedigree, but a compiling a list of stallions would be a nice start!
PennyG

ZIL
Nov. 18, 2010, 05:22 AM
These "history" pedigree threads are SO interesting. I just looked up my guys pedigree, holy cow he's got some of these names (granted 5+ gens back) many times over, but NOT linebred. Hyperion, Fair Play, Phalaris, St Simon, Chaucer... Goober's got some old time royalty back there! SO cool! For a while, I thought his only claim to fame from lineage was his grandsire, Halo. Guess I was really in the dark!

Check him out! I'm very proud of my modern TB who has NO Mr.P, Native Dancer OR Northern Dancer. Granted this most likely from being bred in Argentina :D !

http://www.pedigreequery.com/for+gain

Like my mare, your horse also has Nothirdchance in the pedigree, whose grandsire is Blue Larkspur, which was bred to Flaming Swords, sired by Man o' War. So, that might also seem to be a desirable combination, though it is not Man O'War through War Relic.

As for sires, what do you think of something like Voyager's Quest (http://www.pedigreequery.com/voyagers+quest)? Stud fee is $1000.

vineyridge
Nov. 18, 2010, 01:28 PM
Voyager's Quest might be a very good choice, especially for people with mares with Mr. Prospector. Roberto and Dynaformer are the current leading lines for chasers in North America, frequently with a Mr. P cross. They usually bring stamina and good dense bone to the table, although Barbaro and his family have been exceptions, since they seem to be fighting leg ills constantly. The Voyager's Quest pedigree has many, many good names that are proved in sport, including a lovely double to Olympia.

Deepinmanure
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:16 PM
Cool lines to have in a TB mare.
Clavier
My Babu
Tamerlane
OldenTimes
Sir Ivor
Bonne Nuit
Castle Magic
Comet Shine

ZIL
Nov. 18, 2010, 08:20 PM
I've never seen a Dynaformer offspring in person...do they have good temperaments? I tried to find a pic of Voyager's Quest online but had no success.

selah
Nov. 20, 2010, 09:26 AM
Here's another one....the stallion Babamist ('chaser/eventer)
who was direct sireline to Relic:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/babamist
Here is a page from Lanefield Farms in NY, which stands his son, Mystic Replica:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/babamist

Love these threads, Viney!

vineyridge
Nov. 20, 2010, 09:46 AM
We can also add Raise A Native to the family. He was out of a line that traces tail female to Black Servant's dam, a daughter of Padua. Which gives more choice to those multitudes who have him in their mares (or stallions.) I now need to check and see what, if anything, the combinations with him and the other lines have done--Particularly where soundness is implicated. I know RAN has had many talented sport horses from his descendants both here and in Europe.

vineyridge
Nov. 20, 2010, 10:50 AM
This is INTERESTING!

The very great UK event horse sire, Primitive Rising, is by a RAN son out of an Olden Times/Relic mare.

Toadie's mom
Nov. 20, 2010, 10:55 AM
So what's your definition of "reasonably close" in a pedigree these days? I think the majority of us could find some of these aforementioned horses in our TB's pedigree. I found 7 from Micklem's list in my boy's. Unfortunately they aren't reasonably close by my definition. Or Viney's either probably.

vineyridge
Nov. 20, 2010, 11:05 AM
What I think I'm suggesting is a breeding strategy that packs in Padua family members. As you know, in the TB world inbreeding is considered to be in the first five generations, while linebreeding is farther back, say to the ninth generation.

Roberto's dam line to Bleebok goes back to Blue Larkspur.

I do agree that most TBs have sources back to her. I'd say that deliberately breeding for her might well increase the odds of producing sport horses. Of these horses, Relic would probably the hardest to find in the United States.

ZIL
Nov. 21, 2010, 10:59 AM
What about the stallion Rock Hard Ten (posted on the tb sires thread)?

selah
Nov. 21, 2010, 04:35 PM
Here's an intersting JC TB/ APHA Overo stallion...
Timely Roberto:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/timely+roberto

selah
Dec. 4, 2010, 03:51 PM
In reading the recent thread regarding Totilas' breeding fees, I looked at his pedigree, and there is Relic off of his tail female family, through a daughter of the Relic son, Pericles.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/totilas4

Pericles is also the damsire of the famous KWPN sire, Ulft, and the sire of black tobiano KWPN stallion, Samber.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=SAMBER3&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Pericles is also the sire of KWPN stallion, Nepal, who has several accomplished daughters.

not again
Dec. 4, 2010, 05:36 PM
This was my stallion:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=qRI3gL&d=south+american+way&x=23&y=12
We have sons and daughters, and really enjoy the rideability he offered and his kids do too.
We have frozen from his son Showtime WF, who has gone on to a career on the show circuit. Great minds and movement from that bloodline, that's for sure.

Lord Helpus
Dec. 4, 2010, 06:46 PM
My first junior hunter, way back in the 1960's (yes, I am older than dirt) was by War Admiral out of Fuchsia by Blue Larkspur.

He had a great name: Ships Colors.

Actually, since all imported horses had an * by their name back then, and were considered II or III even if the horse with the prior name was not in their own studbook,

His offical name was *Ships Colors II.

He carted my sorry butt to Madison Sqaure Garden and to B pony Club rallies and excelled in both disciplines. And he had a dream temperament.

Willie was a great horse. He was bred to race, but, after 4 seasons at the track in England, his owners gave up on him and I was the lucky recipient.

EDITED to add his 5 cross pedigree:
https://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=PROCESS_SUBMIT&horse_name=Ships+Colors+&foaling_year=&dam_name=Fuchsia&nicking_stats_indicator=Y&x=21&y=14

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2010, 07:07 PM
How did Ships Colors get exported in the first place? Do he go in utero? I've always wondered about "foreign registered" tbs, with sire and dam who are definitely both North American breeding and the sire never left these shores.

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2010, 07:16 PM
Rock Hard Ten is a son of Kris S out of a daughter of Mr. P.

Blame is by a son of Kris S out of a granddaughter of Mr. P. Zenyatta is by a grandson of Mr. P out of a daughter of Kris S.

Seems to be a cross that works well in racing. :)

Lynnwood
Dec. 4, 2010, 07:16 PM
So how far back is to far?

For instance what about this mare
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/seneca+falls

If you look far enough the forementioned names show up in abundance ... but how far back are you willing to look?

selah
Dec. 4, 2010, 07:17 PM
This was my stallion:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=qRI3gL&d=south+american+way&x=23&y=12
We have sons and daughters, and really enjoy the rideability he offered and his kids do too.
We have frozen from his son Showtime WF, who has gone on to a career on the show circuit. Great minds and movement from that bloodline, that's for sure.

I think there's a glitch in the Pedigree Online database for your boy...it's here in case you would like to edit it:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/south+american+way

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2010, 07:53 PM
I must be missing something because the only horses in Seneca Falls who have Padua are Damascus who has one line on top and one on the bottom Through Blue Larkspur daughters, and Cohoes who also has one line to a Blue Larkspur daughter, albeit one of the best who is out of La Troienne. There is no Relic and no RAN and no Padua tail female line through any of the mares.

I did say that I think Black Toney on top of Padua was a very powerful cross in the context of Gem Twist's dam, and Black Toney is certainly an excellent jumping line even without Padua.

How far back would I go to look? If I'm looking for Padua, no farther back than Blue Larkspur and the Padula or Vaila offspring, which does include Black Servant.

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2010, 08:09 PM
I think there's a glitch in the Pedigree Online database for your boy...it's here in case you would like to edit it:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/south+american+way

Allbreed is definitely wrong. Argos IS by Relic. I just fixed it.

not again
Dec. 4, 2010, 08:23 PM
Allbreed pedigree drives me crazy since anyone can go and change things. One of our Hanoverians keeps being changed into a Dartmoor pony...lol!

Lynnwood
Dec. 4, 2010, 09:11 PM
I must be missing something because the only horses in Seneca Falls who have Padua are Damacus who has one line on top and one on the bottom Through Blue Larkspur daughters, and Cohoes who also has one line to a Blue Larkspur daughter, albeit one of the best who is out of La Troienne. There is no Relic and no RAN and no Padua tail female line through any of the mares.

I did say that I think Black Toney on top of Padua was a very powerful cross in the context of Gem Twist's dam, and Black Toney is certainly an excellent jumping line even without Padua.

How far back would I go to look? If I'm looking for Padua, no farther back than Blue Larkspur and the Padula or Vaila offspring, which does include Black Servant.


Sorry Viney I was including the other names brought up in the thread. I appoligize didnt mean to offend you really my mistake.

I was honestly just curious how far back anyone interested in pedigree should be willing to look before whats off the page begins to lose its influance. Again I'm sorry.

TKR
Dec. 4, 2010, 10:12 PM
LH -- post a photo of your Ships Colors! Would love to see him.
PennyG

Treasmare2
Dec. 4, 2010, 10:13 PM
So now I understand why every foal out of my now deceased mare jumps at least 3'6. I always gave credit to the stallions (Popeye is the sire of two of them)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/winter+orchid
Interesting read tonight....thanks for that.:yes:

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2010, 11:29 PM
To give my opinion about how far off the page lines cease to have influence, I'd say "never", at least as far as TBs are concerned in sport. Since the studbook is closed and so much of breeding is faddish, there will be a huge loss of potential ancestors. If within the first nine or so generations, linebreeding to horses that carry jumping talent will have influence. That's why talented sport horses can pop up unexpectedly from unpromising pedigrees.

But without doubles and crosses to brothers and sisters, I'd say the first four are the most telling. And the closer you get to horses who have produced or gotten jumping horses, the better it is. There is a good bit of thought that doubling (or tripling or quadrupling) in the 4th to 6th generations is a very good reinforcement strategy.

vineyridge
Dec. 4, 2010, 11:40 PM
I double dog dare you to count up the number of lines to Domino and his sire Himyar in Winter Orchid's pedigree.

The number will surprise you.

selah
Dec. 5, 2010, 11:07 AM
So now I understand why every foal out of my now deceased mare jumps at least 3'6. I always gave credit to the stallions (Popeye is the sire of two of them)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/winter+orchid
Interesting read tonight....thanks for that.:yes:

Holy mackerel! Her dam is bred back on tail female La Troienne through two Blue Larkspur daughters:eek: Breeding elixir there!

Treasmare2
Dec. 6, 2010, 08:53 AM
Your kind and interesting comments on Winter Orchid are pleasing to read. She was such a special mare that consistently produced well and died just after birthing her last foal. She is vey much missed and sadly never gave me a filly.

selah
Dec. 14, 2010, 09:51 PM
Look at the filly by Federalist out of TB mare Metsonized...has tail female Blue Larkspur daughter on her tail female line, with Black Toney X LaTroienne over it.
Pedigree here:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/metsonized

Post with pic #684...thread here:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5283015&posted=1#post5283015

vineyridge
Dec. 14, 2010, 10:15 PM
Soaring was the dam of the superior broodmare Ballade. Ballade was the dam of Saint Ballado, Glorious Song, and Devil's Bag among others.

Bimlette is pure E.R. Bradley breeding.

Fred
Dec. 15, 2010, 09:17 AM
My young mare Navy is out of a Saint Ballado mare named Sea Saint.
Small correction (I just looked) Ballade is by Herbager, out of Miss Swapsco, Soaring was her granddam (dam of Miss Swapsco).