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View Full Version : Anyone up for a little Conformation critique?



Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 09:18 AM
I went to try out this little OTTB mare this weekend and really quite liked her under saddle. I realize these photos are not terribly helpful but any impressions?

She's about 15.2 and actually quite a wide little thing. However, if she is who I think she is, she's been off the track since July 09 and just resurfaced at an auction about 2 months ago so she's not really in any kind of shape and no one has any idea what she's been doing over the past year.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v303/RouxKazoo/Baby%20Pics/?action=view&current=mare-1.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v303/RouxKazoo/Baby%20Pics/?action=view&current=mare.jpg

Thanks :)

purplnurpl
Nov. 15, 2010, 09:59 AM
nothing fancy. she's quite common.

but her head is nice and big and genuine looking.

She looks like she would either ride like a QH and have a short choppy stride, maybe even a lateral type gait--or be too long and strung out and hard to keep together. Her back is kinda long for her lil legs.
she has a nice long neck though...but she's croup high and looks a bit down hill, how old is she?

What did she feel like?
I think she's cute.

You can never go wrong with grey IMO. ;)

findeight
Nov. 15, 2010, 10:16 AM
I am assuming you are looking at her to go over fences at shows as a Hunter or Jumper??? Or as a field Hunter?

Uhhh...not much to recommend for that purpose on anything but the lower levels.

Back dips low behind the withers and she has a very steep croup indicating the wrong structure to produce a nice canter and power off the backend over a fence of any height. That is not going to go away, it is skeletal.

Also appears very "bellied up". That may or may not improve. Can't tell if she lacks any condition at all, is built wasp waisted or just wormy.

She may be suited as a kid horse (if she has the temperment) or something other then jumping on a regular basis. BUT...I would be cautious about where she has been for the last year and why she was there-it obviously was not working under saddle. There are usually reasons anybody pays upkeep on a horse that is no longer racing and does not use it or breed it.

Even if it's cheap, if it is not going to be able to do the job you are buying it to do? Other considerations aside (vet work, soundness issues, farrier work), it can get real expensive to keep.

Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 10:18 AM
She rode like a doll, which is really why I am even considering her, because I certainly agree she isn't a lot to look at ;)
She does have a choppy little QH trot but a much nicer canter and for a mare with no real training to speak of (presumably), after a lap each direction dropped her little nose and softened into such a pleasant little thing, I was just so surprised.

I rode her around in some western bit which she didn't seem real fond of but with soft hands and a little leg she dropped down into a great little frame. Quiet, obedient, and thought it through really well--as soon as she figured out what I wanted she was all over it.

I don't know; I'm really torn. I realize she wouldn't have much of a resale as a little TB mare but gosh, she really was a sweet willing thing. And it's not like I'm exactly in the resale business anyway; she would give me something to play around with.

And I, too, really liked her big eye.

For you pedigree gurus, I'm pretty sure this is who she is:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/down+the+crown

findeight
Nov. 15, 2010, 10:29 AM
Long as you know what the limitations may be. I don't hate her, she's cute, there is just nothing that says she will have much of a jump or even a real good canter to jump out of.

One yellow light, she's coming 8 and 16 months off the track. Assuming she started late in her 2 year old year, she would have been at the tracks for 4 years or so. Can you get her race record? Go over to the Racing Forum, they can research that for you.

Look for long gaps between starts. If she stayed, more or less, in continuous training with...oh...8 or 10 starts, minimum, a year at regular intervals, that would probably mean she is tough and stayed sound enough.

If she had few starts with long gaps? Usually means they were not sound and/or had reoccuring problems.

Pull her record, it can tell you what you need to know.

Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 10:43 AM
Oh, I'm on it :)

She had 34 starts, see if this works:
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorseInfo.cfm?refno=6770232&registry=T

But to summarize it, she started late '06, ran twice, ran 15x in 07, twice in early 08, then had 8 months off and ran 4 more times in 08, then 11x through July of 09.

A big layoff there, so not sure what happened. Seems sound and clean-legged.

Also I'd be willing to bet she's a bit wormy but apparently she is on no grain at all right now so I'd imagine she'd be a bit of an easy keeper.

findeight
Nov. 15, 2010, 10:54 AM
That's decent...but get a PPE because of that 8 month gap and then the last 16 months of whereabouts unknown. Maybe there was an ownership or trainer change or maybe it was an injury that got enough time to heal...and maybe they tried to breed her and failed to get her to take this last stretch. It's not always sinister but it is often enough you just cannot trust anybody.

You can stay basic with visual and flexions. None are 100% sound, matter of what you can live with-but you need to know what you will be living with. So get some basic x rays, particularly below the knee in front and hock/stifle...if you get that far before something disqualifies. A GOOD PPE vet can tell a ton by just watching them lunge for 10 minutes. Get one that starts by doing just that. Save time and additional money if they spot a disqualifying condition early in the exam.

Don't think that will break the bank and it could save you a considerable amount however it turns out.

Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:07 PM
I should probably pass. Realistically I could probably do better with a Canter horse. The problem is I've gotten to sit on my previous OTTB, as well as this mare, as they were on a farm rather than the track and I'm just a bit leery of *not* sitting on one beforehand.

I'm just a sucker for mares and she really is sweet.

Tamara in TN
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:32 PM
I think a lot of her problems could be cleaned up a bit with a better foot job below.... :>

Tamara in TN

findeight
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:55 PM
I think a lot of her problems could be cleaned up a bit with a better foot job below.... :>

Tamara in TN

Yeah...but not the things that say she will not be a good jumper or that belly....umm....it is a mare and...you never know. Maybe a twofer. wouldn't be that uncommon with no background information.

Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 01:07 PM
Yeah...but not the things that say she will not be a good jumper or that belly....umm....it is a mare and...you never know. Maybe a twofer. wouldn't be that uncommon with no background information.

WOW I didn't even think of that. Yikes.

She has very good feet structurally--she's barefoot and totally fine with that as well it seems, but yeah she needs a good visit with the farrier.

Tamara in TN
Nov. 15, 2010, 01:17 PM
Yeah...but not the things that say she will not be a good jumper or that belly....umm....it is a mare and...you never know. Maybe a twofer. wouldn't be that uncommon with no background information.


an itty bitty ? never ;)
her feet are awful all round, putting her back behind her toes just everywhere....and that could help her loin a lot to fill in and strengthen to get them cleaned up...that and more feed;)...

I also hate how all that mane makes her look even more mangy and unkept....'course I am a known mane hater anyway....

Tamara in TN

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 15, 2010, 01:25 PM
She may be sweet now, but after you worm her and get her fed properly that may all go out the window, wouldn't be the first horse to start to feel better after good care.;)

Otherwise I think she is an attractive mare, but her size,her sex, her color(I don't do grays anymore) and her bred would send me out the door. Perfer WBs for resale, better/easier market.

for resale I'd move on.

AnotherRound
Nov. 15, 2010, 01:30 PM
Almost everything looks conformationally out of proportion to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if its a two fer. Not a jumper candidate with that croup and loin. Really big head and something really wrong with the angles on her feet, which I can't describe. Nothing to recommend her to me, anyway. sorry.

Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 01:35 PM
Forgot to mention she oversteps herself walking a bit, too (the click-click walk ;)). Feet definitely need addressed.

Yeah...that's a lot of mane. They ride her western and said they were disappointed all her mane would get chopped if she ended up going English.

Not that I honestly mind--I can see past dirt/hair etc, but she wasn't "done up" for selling at all. I guess that's okay from the standpoint of whatyou see if what you get, though..pretty confident she wasn't drugged.

Re: the preggo possibility..is that something that can be worked into a standard vetting? I do not want a baby.

Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 01:38 PM
Almost everything looks conformationally out of proportion to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if its a two fer. Not a jumper candidate with that croup and loin. Really big head and something really wrong with the angles on her feet, which I can't describe. Nothing to recommend her to me, anyway. sorry.

While I agree she isn't much to look at..she really does look better in person. She isn't big-headed at all--gotta be the angle--and she actually carries herself very nicely.

Though I do find myself questioning how she managed to race marginally competitvely given her size/confo..but she actually appears to have done so. Certainly not a world-beater but averaged a touch over 1k a start.

findeight
Nov. 15, 2010, 01:43 PM
Sure, a reproductive exam is pretty cheap and uncomplicated. I always include it on a mare if I PPE just in case there are any cysts, infection or abnormalities that could effect overall health.

Early on, palpating to confirm or rule out pregnancy is like finding a BB in a bowl of spaghetti. At this time of the year and with that size belly, this one should be easy to confirm or rule out.

Mind you, not saying she is but....she could be 8 months or so along in November.

If she is not, I have real concern over worm load and future consequences or just real awkward conformation.-and that won't go away

Fillabeana
Nov. 15, 2010, 02:47 PM
If her belly is big ('wormy' looking) because she's actually showing a pregnancy, then the baby would be big enough to easily (and with great confidence on the vet/palpate-person's part) determine bred or open.
I preg-check our cows, and findeight is right- if it is 45 days along or so, good luck...but our cows are either open or 6 or more months along when I stick my arm in them, and it's reeeaaaallllllyyyy obvious by then- you're either shaking the baby's hoof, or you're feeling their entire uterus in the palm of your hand. (My favorite thing palpating for pregnancy is when the baby is due in 6 or 8 weeks, and sucks on your finger! Had this happen twice now).
Mares can be a little crankier to palpate, but even a vet that doesn't do much repro work will be able to tell without much trouble if she's far along-and if we think she looks pregnant (and is pregnant) then she's far enough along.

There is something very weird about her front feet in the facing-left photo, but I don't see it in the facing-right one. On a positive note, her hoof size looks more than adequate for her optimum body weight- looks like she might wear a size 1 shoe.
Her conformation looks pretty unpromising to me in terms of her loin/croup.
She looks like two or three different horses, put together. But if her legs are straight, her hooves are good, and her temperament is golden- AND you could find a good chiro type to help with her undermuscled topline, maybe you'd have a good low level packer in the future.
She's undermuscled in her neck, too, and I wonder if proper nutrition/deworming would help her out a lot. But I still don't like the coupling of loin to croup, skeletally.

Big_Tag
Nov. 15, 2010, 03:58 PM
Ugh. I don't know what to do. The seller appears to be desperate to sell and I already got her knocked down to 2/3 of the price before vetting. I don't want something useless--and to be honest, something I don't need--but look at this face:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v303/RouxKazoo/?action=view&current=mare2.jpg
I'm such a sucker for a nice eye ;)

Given I don't have to have a game plan for her..ugh.
And does she really look preggo to you guys?

Not to sound corny..I don't need her but she might need me given I got the "I have to sell her before winter" shpiel..

Spud&Saf
Nov. 15, 2010, 04:22 PM
If you like her, can afford her, don't need to re-sell her and have no expectations of her performance-wise, then I don't see why you should pass on her.

I'm sure we all started on sweet and good-natured schoolies that were not put together very well. I know I sure did and I loved some of them as much as I love my current horse.

Horses of all shapes and sizes can bring you happiness, as long as you're being realistic about what you are buying.

2tempe
Nov. 15, 2010, 04:24 PM
There is something very weird about her front feet in the facing-left photo, but I don't see it in the facing-right one. On a positive note, her hoof size looks more than adequate for her optimum body weight- looks like she might wear a size 1 shoe.

I noticed the feet also; looks in the one like her pasterns are out of wack but the other picture looks better. If the left facing one is accurate, that would scare me away...

doublesstable
Nov. 15, 2010, 05:02 PM
She is cute but for more of a trail type horse. I do see the sacro area - may have been injured. Also the right front looks back at the knee. I would ask what her layups were for and see if it's something you can live with since you seem to like her.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Nov. 15, 2010, 05:18 PM
I see nothing in her hind end to make me think she is going to have any wow jumping ability. That said, my little project horse has worse conformation, a bigger Roman head, and I'm still having a REALLY good time with him. He is such a smart boy!

It is all what you want out of the deal. But I don't think she's secretly a grand prix jumper waiting to be discovered or anything like that.

I think she has a hay belly (but could also be pregnant).

findeight
Nov. 15, 2010, 07:08 PM
Hey, if you are buying for yourself and need no particular use out of her? Go ahead and "rescue' her.

But you cannot ride just the sweet face and horses do not reciprocate any affection by trying any harder for you then any other competent and kind rider-especially when they physically cannot do the job you dreamed for them and you.

Several of us have had issues with that belly and that seller, really, just got her at the auction and knows just about nothing about her.

Think with head not heart and this one is not sharing your hearth and bed like a companion animal bred for just that-dog or cat-would.

And...may be a twofer or is really wormy or has unfortunate and unnatrractive, limiting conformation.

You cannot buy everything you feel sorry for and keep them forever.

Sorry, long time at this. That's the truth.

Big_Tag
Nov. 16, 2010, 08:37 AM
You're absolutely right. To be honest I am not really the sentimental type at all.

I'm going to think about it. Like I said, I don't need to resell her and if for some reason I did, I think with some miles on her she will make a child's horse or at the very least a reliable trail/pleasure mount. I ride hunter/jumpers (primarily jumpers) and have plenty to ride/show if I want (right now I'm riding my trainer's second horse) and this one would be for my own project just to tinker around with. She wouldn't even be boarded there as it's a show barn with very limited turnout which isn't my style anyway.

I actually posted here instead of off-course bc I like the more direct, critical answers here, but not to mislead--I don't have any visions of grandeur here ;) I myself, though I've been riding for a lot of years, have no goals above the low adults which I show in when the opportunity presents itself. If she could do that, great; if not, I don't care. I don't show enough to need her to anyway.

That being said, there really no reason for me TO limit myself when I could get an OTTB with more potential for the same price soo..I will think about it.

I appreciate the opinions/comments and welcome more.

PS--Seller claims she *thinks* she came into heat but yeah, I will be checking on that if I go so far as to vet her out ;)

rmh_rider
Nov. 16, 2010, 06:26 PM
I see a hunters bump.

Run the other way.

Great color though.

x
Nov. 16, 2010, 10:37 PM
I find the pictures difficult to judge from. In fact, I never judge from a picture--too easy for angles to make things appear worse than they are. Therefore I will not give any opinion on the pictures. I am of the opinion that if you think she'd be fun for you, and you'd enjoy her, then go for it. If you are looking for resale, realize that while her color is a plus for resale, her size is not, and she would probably be a harder sell as a small TB mare than some others.

barka.lounger
Nov. 16, 2010, 10:44 PM
bar.ka here

that horse best suited for a kaiser rol.l. not suited 4 sho.w ring.

Big_Tag
Nov. 17, 2010, 08:15 AM
I think I am going to pass. I will keep an eye on her though, and try to make sure she doesn't end up going back through an auction. I actually located another OTTB and started a new thread for his confo critique so feel free to weigh in on him:)

And thank you for all your opinions/comments, very helpful!