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Stormgsd
Nov. 12, 2010, 07:03 PM
My sister and I are working at MA Equine Affaire on Sunday and we were told that one of the most common questions is the difference between a three and five gaited ASB. Clearly my sister and I know the difference, but, please please add some things that would help explain it to a newbie:) Also any other talking points for the ASB breed would be most appreciated:D See you there!

Donkaloosa
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:08 PM
I'm no expert, but I do know that Saddlebreds tend to be people horses --- if they aren't the super hyped up show 5-gaited. You have to figure that they naturally have good temperments to put up with some of that nonsense, and the ones I've known who were just plain horses were intelligent, good natured horses. Technically, any horse can be taught to rack and slow gait, but the 5-gaited ASBs are much more natural at it, the tendency has been bred into them. They are versatile, are shown in a variety of classes from driving to hunters, western, and they are even adding speed in some shows (barrels and poles).

sdlbredfan
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:33 PM
The extra gaits of ' slow gait ' and 'rack' are taught to the horse. Very few Saddlebreds naturally amble nowadays, but some family lines tend to have more aptitude for learning the extra gaits. Contrary to the misconception in the post immediately before mine, the 'hyped up' horses also are very friendly and people-oriented horses. The 'hyped up' behavior is exactly that, a learned behavior and most of the ones you see in the show riing know when they are 'on stage' and ham it up.

Tamara in TN
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:37 PM
the difference is the ability to look up thru a bridle and hit a spectacular set of lateral gaits that break a foot over level and cause a horse to float across the ground...

for me it is what separates nice from NIIIIIIIIIIIIICEEEEEEEE!


Tamara in TN

ReSomething
Nov. 13, 2010, 02:56 AM
The old guy was a super hyped up show five gaited. Adult Amateur Show Pleasure division, which is a little bit less than the "top" horses. He can do the standard three gaits, WTC, and in addition will slow gait on his own, if he is in a hurry but on slippery ground. I have photos of him in his heyday racking. Nowadays he is a big pet, very people oriented. Racking is a four beat gait, rapid, animated, well I don't honestly know how to describe it, I'll dig up the ASHA link and description.

Breed-wise, an interesting factoid is that Denmark,circa 1839, one of the foundation sires, was a TB, and although Denmark was not a producer of note at all in the racing world his line still can be traced to 1945 on pedigreequery.

Three gaited horses often have the mane roached, and the top of the tail, but that may be done for top show horses only and not the "average" horse. They do tend to have their forelocks shaved off, which really accentuates the close set ears and long fine faces. I remember being struck by the "look" all the horses had, that and they were all chestnuts, LOL. One of the traits that breeders advertise is a "good mind", that in addition to the old TB traits of "heart", and what they call "game" - which means a horse that tries to please, is smart, willing, and sometimes to it's own detriment. I guess that is the same as the TB's that just keep on running - ASB's will keep on showing off. I've always felt that the horses in the barn were happy, friendly and curious. Also sometimes silly, and quite the diva, but not outright mean.
Now the pony we have is half ASB, but he has a case of the little man syndrome that I am afraid he will never lose entirely. I blame that on late gelding and the QH half, LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIN-6oyJZ4M this is a video of the rack in slo mo. I was unable to find a good written description though.

Amwrider
Nov. 13, 2010, 11:08 PM
The ability to do lateral gaits is bred into the breed but not all horses show an aptitude for picking up the lateral gaits.

The gaits are man-made, they are taught to the horse, usually by pulling front shoes, leaving the horse shod behind and pushing the horse into a fast walk while "rocking" the horse's nose left and right. If the horse has an aptitude, it will start to mix his gait and take some lateral steps. Working on inclines helps also.

As the horse develops the ability to separate his gaits, the shoeing is changed to reflect what the horse will eventually show with.

Saddlebreds trace back to the Darley Arabian through the TB Blaze. They also trace back to Imported Messenger who was instrumental in the development of the Standardbred. There is also a lot of Morgan influence in the breed. In the early days of the Saddlebred stud book, many stallions were double or even triple registered as Saddlebreds, Standardbreds and Morgans.

The Peavine family has a large number of horses in multiple stud books.

Sometimes a "natural" gaited ASB is born and these horses will rack around the pasture as babies. These horses usually do not have a good trot and seldom make great show horses as all ASBs shown at USEF sanctioned shows MUST show at a trot.

Saddlebreds are bred for extreme athleticism and range of motion through the shoulder and hocks and have long, springy pasterns. They make nice jumpers as they are able to fold up over jumps.

They have a very balanced and slightly uphill build and they can do very well in dressage with excellent gait extensions.

Couture TB
Nov. 14, 2010, 03:34 PM
We have two different colts at the stable right now. One is from 5 gaiter stock and the other is not. The one naturally slow gaits in the pasture which depending on who you listen to is actually bad as they can be a bit pacy. The other prefers the trot out of all gaits, which is to be expected as Sultan Santana is his sire, and the other's sire is Good Spirits.

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 14, 2010, 06:29 PM
This link has a fairly good description:

http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/Rack/RackingGait.shtml

A Rack is the SAME footfall pattern as the walk any horse does, even and four-beat. However the rack inserts a moment of supension between each step -the horse springs from foot to foot.

Because of the speed of the gait it is quite easy to take pictures of a horse with straight foreleg on the ground inclined to the rear and two hind legs off the ground one extended far behind the horse, having just lifted off, and the other far under the horse just about to ground. To many this parallel cannons aspect LOOKS lateral, but the legs are in completely different phases of the stride. Closing the eyes and listening gives a perfect 4-beat even 'cogwheel' sound.

Pacey gaiting is a fault in any four-beat gait, where the footfalls become irregular and the horse starts 1-2, 1-2 instead of the even beat.

The foundation TB sire Denmark circa 1839 was bred to a Cockspur gaited daughter, then that son, Gaines Denmark, was backcrossed to another Cockspur gaited daughter to produce Washington Denmark: through which the vast majority of the original registry horses (which had to be certified in one of the 'saddle' gaits to be admitted) traced in tail male through his 3 sons out of the gaited mare Queen, by Bald Stockings.

Others trace through Gaines Denmark via his son Diamond Denmark, also out of Queen.

The second major sire line that has currently numerically overshadowed the Denmarks is from Clark Chief circa 1861, strictly race trotting bred with the sire line through Messenger also to the Thoroughbred Blaze.
His grandson Bourbon Chief circa 1883 out of a primarily Denmark bred mare with an additional line to a Hackney-Thoroughbred cross founded a tremendously vital sire line and locked in the trot.

The lines are so heavily intermixed now that it would be impossible to separate them.

The Stepping Pace is much more difficult to describe, kind of like trying to explain to people the difference between Piaffe and trampling up and down on the spot: try to find some footage of Imperator, that's how it should be done.

Saddlebreds will seek out people to DO things with them. Many are very good about accomodating riders that need accomodating and challenging riders that need to be challenged. Many have a sense of humor.

They really are something to be experienced.

kookicat
Nov. 14, 2010, 07:19 PM
Do you think they could event?

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 14, 2010, 08:02 PM
Do you think they could event?

If their rider does... :)

http://bloomsburystud.blogspot.com/

http://pets.webshots.com/album/558238597niyNeM?vhost=pets

http://www.saddlebredsarefun.com/

Link to the UK American Saddlebred club:
http://www.american-saddlebred.co.uk/

vineyridge
Nov. 14, 2010, 09:00 PM
The way the rack was described above, it seems to be the horse equivalent of race walking. :) A very exaggerated, fast and swinging version of the walk.

How exactly does the rack differ from the running walk, which I believe TWHs do naturally?

What do y'all mean by "lateral gait"? Okay, I just looked it up. Two legs on the same side moving forward at the same time. Opposed to diagonal gait where two legs on opposite sides move forward together.

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 14, 2010, 09:57 PM
The way the rack was described above, it seems to be the horse equivalent of race walking. :) A very exaggerated, fast and swinging version of the walk.

How exactly does the rack differ from the running walk, which I believe TWHs do naturally?

What do y'all mean by "lateral gait"? Okay, I just looked it up. Two legs on the same side moving forward at the same time. Opposed to diagonal gait where two legs on opposite sides move forward together.

'same side legs at the same time' is considered completely incorrect for the gaited breeds, the step must not pace or sidewheel, there must be distinctly different phasing of the fore and aft strides.
In race walking the foot must stay on the ground, not coming off until the second foot is planted. In a rack there are phases where just one foot is grounded at a time -hence the old term singlefoot. In fact a true rack will never have 3 feet on the ground and two only for a very brief moment.

Imagine a horse walking normally; now take the front feet and hop from one to the other instead of stepping. this frees up the Hq to take a much longer stride -if the horse is built to do so. The stacks on a twh allow that extra length of leg and permit the forefoot to stay on the ground and not hop a tad bit longer during the tremendous natural overstride encouraged by training.

The TWH has exceptional angulation of shoulder and generally a long gaskin and steep croup to enable the big pushing stride.

You can go to Equinenow or Dreamhorse and see TWH foals doing a running walk beside their dams. There is thought to be a genetic trigger based on concussion that tells a horse to 'shift gears' upward to the trot that is set much higher in the naturally gaited breeds.

In a rack, a Saddlebred does not step from foot to foot behind, they are in the air before the other lands. Ditto the front pair. This plus the rebound effect from the tendons allows the long stride and great speed possible at the rack.

notice the hoof position here, you can see the shadows under the airborn hind hoofs and that the front is clearly bearing the load:
http://www.meritage-farms.com/images/five_gaited_saddlebred_300.jpg

No one publishes the photos where there is one hind foot grounded, the other is tightly folded and the forelegs are airborn extended front and back, it looks unappealing :)


***
Type: 100 years ago –not much has changed, still instantly recognizable Saddlebreds

Chief line: Astral King 1906
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=astral+king2&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0


Denmark line: Princess Eugenia 1909
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=princess+eugenia&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

-Chester Peavine is doing a Stepping Pace in his painting: LH is about to ground, followed by RH lifting, LF heading for the ground just as RF lifts off, then RH grounds…


Modern: Glenview’s Excelalante 2004
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=GLENVIEWS+EXCELALANTE&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

Interestingly, way back in the Pedigree: Mrs. Culvers 1895 bred to the Morgan General Gates produced the great Morgan progenitor Bennington, sire of Mansfield, Canfield, Topsham, Ulysses, Querido, etc.

In the Morgan registry Astral King’s grandson Upwey King Peavine was bred to a Bennington daughter to get Upwey King Benn 1939, sire of Upwey Benn Don 1943, widely found in modern Morgan ancestry.

Tamara in TN
Nov. 14, 2010, 10:09 PM
The way the rack was described above, it seems to be the horse equivalent of race walking. :) A very exaggerated, fast and swinging version of the walk.

How exactly does the rack differ from the running walk, which I believe TWHs do naturally?

the Rack and Runningwalk can both be quite natural to all gaiteds...the quickest down and dirty way to tell them apart is to watch the elbow and stifle on the same side...in the rack they move together and the feet land a split second apart ,in the pace they move together and the feet land together, in the runningwalk the elbow and stifle move separately and the feet land in the same time the the beat is always 4 time as a regular old walk in any horse

Tamara in TN

Stormgsd
Nov. 14, 2010, 10:18 PM
Do you think they could event?


Saw pictures of a beatiful beatiful eventing Saddlebred today:)

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 14, 2010, 10:19 PM
the next phase, hind foot grounds, front is about to lift off
http://www.bornemark.com/bornemarkensgard/web_bild/ash_rack.jpg

'legs on same side' but not pacey.

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 14, 2010, 10:27 PM
Front foot almost grounded, hind about to lift, note the extension fore and aft: the more forward hind foot will eventually land just a few inches behind that extended front foot.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/3002796290_d0b902c30b.jpg?v=0

Stride phasing is very clear.

RedMare01
Nov. 14, 2010, 10:34 PM
I grew up riding ASB's (still have my ASB mare) and my aunt used to have a TWH, so I've ridden both. It's hard to describe the feeling... They are similar, but definitely different. There is nothing like the feeling of racking around a ring on an ASB. Especially when they know they're supposed to be showing off! ;)

As far as differences between 3 gaited and 5 gaited ASB's, I think that is hard to describe to someone not familiar with ASB's. To me, growing up around them, there are definite conformation differences, but it's kind of one of those things you know when you see. While any ASB may be able to be taught to slow gait and rack, not all have the same aptitude.

Caitlin

red mares
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:24 PM
A little late, but a simple answer to difference between 3 & 5 gaited Saddlebreds:

3 gaited = elegant and controlled
5 gaited = fast and bold

The hyped up, wild ones can be just as pleasant on the ground as the dull ones, just more fun to ride.

ReSomething
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:59 PM
D_Baldstockings is posting many lovely photos - but one question I have always had is why is there a difference in equipment - in H/J land it's always the bell boot for over reach protection, while all the five gaiteds wear the form fitted white quarter boot for the same thing. Why? Or am I making an assumption about uses?

(sorry to hijack!)

red mares
Nov. 15, 2010, 02:14 PM
Gaited horses wear hinged quarter boots or trotting boots in case they over reach with a back foot while racking or slow gaiting. Some horses don't like (and won't rack) the quarter boots because they can be kind of floppy sometimes. Gaited horses can be fussy about what's on their front feet when they rack

Fine harness horses wear bell boots, usually $$$$ leather ones, in case they catch themselves.

Walk trot (3 Gaited) don't wear any boots at all.

Pleasure horses, with the exception of gaited pleasure horses, don't wear boots either.

I'll leave it to Baldstockings to put up some pictures, I don't have the priveleges to.

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 15, 2010, 04:06 PM
Heck the pics aren't mine, I just went to google and linked.

You can find good and bad pics of everything if you are patient -or maybe obsessive LOL!

Wellspotted
Nov. 15, 2010, 05:07 PM
My sister and I are working at MA Equine Affaire on Sunday and we were told that one of the most common questions is the difference between a three and five gaited ASB. Clearly my sister and I know the difference, but, please please add some things that would help explain it to a newbie:) Also any other talking points for the ASB breed would be most appreciated:D See you there!

Five-gaited ASBs do a slow gait and rack in addition to WTC.
Once upon a time the five-gaited ones wore their manes and tails long and natural, while the 3-gaited ones had hogged manes and pulled (?) tails. Don't know if that fashion is still followed today.

They are a very versatile breed -- 3-gaited or 5-gaited, can be driven as well, make good hunters, trail horses, pleasure horses, go western or English, saddle seat or hunt seat or dressage. A good all-round horse rather than a "specialist."

jeano
Nov. 15, 2010, 09:33 PM
I think that the rack isnt lateral when done correctly, its "square" as is the walk. Timing is even. And hooo boy, is it fun to ride. Very exilhirating at speed. My racking mare (who has many gears, but not a lot of high knee action, typically) pulled a slow gait on me once. It was floaty and soft, and nothing like her amble, which involves more side to side motion.

I used to ride Saddlebreds at a lesson barn a million years ago. They are hot and sweet and real characters. Practical jokers, most of 'em.

RedMare01
Nov. 15, 2010, 11:18 PM
No, the rack and slow gait should not be lateral. It's a distinct four beat gait. "Pace-y" shouldn't pin well.

Caitlin

Wellspotted
Nov. 16, 2010, 01:10 PM
The way the rack was described above, it seems to be the horse equivalent of race walking. :) A very exaggerated, fast and swinging version of the walk.

How exactly does the rack differ from the running walk, which I believe TWHs do naturally?



They are the same gait; they're just performed differently by the different breeds. The Tennessee Walking Horse was developed out of the American Saddle Horse (Saddlebred), with some crosses to other breeds. It is a newer breed than the Saddlebred. "A picture is worth a thousand words" (I was just thinking of that this morning!)--look at youtube videos of the two breeds--and there is a great video somewhere online of how the running walk in the TWH has changed through the decades. Watch a naturally gaited TWH and then a Saddlebred; then for something really different look at a Big Lick TWH video--the Big Lick running walk is like a completely different gait. Roan Allen, the TWH foundation sire, reputedly was shown at the running walk, rack, amble, singlefoot, and maybe even pace.

Hope this helps. :)

katarine
Nov. 16, 2010, 04:32 PM
I would not say the rack and the running walk are the same gait...done differently. That's not telling them much, now is it ;)

A rack is an even 4 beat walk with no head nod. A tensed back. A shaky tail.

A running walk is an even 4 beat walk with anything from a little to a lot of head nod. A neutral back. And a non shaking tail.

here are some running walk and flat walk videos.

http://www.howetheywalk.com/video-of-gaits.htm

A nice detailed explanation of rack vs running walk...

http://www.howetheywalk.com/Adobe%20pdf%20files/Walk%20or%20a%20Rack.pdf

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 16, 2010, 07:51 PM
I wouldn't quite say the TWH developed from the Saddlebred; there were 'saddle horses' that were gaited or trained to gait before either registry was formed.

While it is true that there is a lot of overlap in the foundation stock, because the Saddlebred was required to trot and the TWH was not, and the Saddlebred always had more TB crossed into it, the types had diverged quite a bit before the TWH registry officially started.

The Walkers West site has a huge fund of information on the early history:

http://www.walkerswest.com/History/Contents.htm

Running walk and Rack are quite different in the footplant/foot liftoff timing, just as they are differnt from a regular walk. All have the same footfall sequence, all should be equally spaced four-beat.

InWhyCee Redux
Nov. 16, 2010, 09:14 PM
Just for fun — Fancy the Racking Mule!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ax9sNJYZA

Speed-racking! Can Santa bring me this horse? And can anyone tell me the difference between an ASB and a registered Racking Horse?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls8AfLmbYu0&feature=fvst

Bearhunter
Nov. 17, 2010, 08:08 AM
Here is a WC 5 gaited horse @ slow gait and rack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxXwlXGXqwU

Here is a class of 3 Gaited Horses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lfVLvxIdlA

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 17, 2010, 03:41 PM
[QUOTE=InWhyCee Redux;5227722]And can anyone tell me the difference between an ASB and a registered Racking Horse?
[QUOTE]

Racking horses are most often TWH that prefer to rack or Saddlebreds that wouldn't trot (it happens) combined with native and other horses that rack that were never in either of those registries and their crosses.
Almost a registry for the racking TWH, but not quite. They claim to have horses that rack naturally without training.

http://www.rackinghorse.com/history.html

InWhyCee Redux
Nov. 17, 2010, 04:22 PM
[QUOTE=InWhyCee Redux;5227722]And can anyone tell me the difference between an ASB and a registered Racking Horse?
[QUOTE]

Racking horses are most often TWH that prefer to rack or Saddlebreds that wouldn't trot (it happens) combined with native and other horses that rack that were never in either of those registries and their crosses.
Almost a registry for the racking TWH, but not quite. They claim to have horses that rack naturally without training.

http://www.rackinghorse.com/history.html

Thanks for the info! This thread makes me want to ask Santa for a racking horse, or at least a spotted racking mule...;)

Wellspotted
Nov. 17, 2010, 05:47 PM
I wouldn't quite say the TWH developed from the Saddlebred; there were 'saddle horses' that were gaited or trained to gait before either registry was formed.

While it is true that there is a lot of overlap in the foundation stock, because the Saddlebred was required to trot and the TWH was not, and the Saddlebred always had more TB crossed into it, the types had diverged quite a bit before the TWH registry officially started.

.

Which is what I was saying. In early TWH pedigrees there are ASBs listed. The ASB contributed to the TWH, as did Morgans and Standardbreds, et al. I didn't say anything about 'saddle horses' that existed before either registry was formed. ;) (And I know who Bald Stockings was! :winkgrin: )

Wellspotted
Nov. 17, 2010, 05:48 PM
I would not say the rack and the running walk are the same gait...done differently. That's not telling them much, now is it ;)



It's telling them as much as you did, in fewer words. ;) I just pointed the way for OP to look it up if interested.

katarine
Nov. 17, 2010, 05:50 PM
I just didn't see any substance in the same but different. Chicken and Turkey are the same but different. No biggie ;)

Tamara in TN
Nov. 17, 2010, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;5227564]I wouldn't quite say the TWH developed from the Saddlebred; there were 'saddle horses' that were gaited or trained to gait before either registry was formed.

that would be incorrect...the Red Squirrel family of saddlebreds were a very important base for the walking horses...

Tamara in TN

Tamara in TN
Nov. 17, 2010, 06:05 PM
They are the same gait


no they are different to a trained eye as a trot and a passage


Tamara in TN

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 17, 2010, 09:47 PM
They are the same gait; they're just performed differently by the different breeds. The Tennessee Walking Horse was developed out of the American Saddle Horse (Saddlebred), with some crosses to other breeds. It is a newer breed than the Saddlebred. "A picture is worth a thousand words" (I was just thinking of that this morning!)--look at youtube videos of the two breeds--and there is a great video somewhere online of how the running walk in the TWH has changed through the decades. Watch a naturally gaited TWH and then a Saddlebred; then for something really different look at a Big Lick TWH video--the Big Lick running walk is like a completely different gait. Roan Allen, the TWH foundation sire, reputedly was shown at the running walk, rack, amble, singlefoot, and maybe even pace.

Hope this helps. :)

That bolded sentence was what I was responding to. I realize posts don't always come out the way our thoughts are, but we can only see what is written :)


I can't find the link just now but there is a 'German Coach Horse' greatgrandfather behind one of the pre 1940's TWH great sires (that would be 1890's ish) and his power and tremendous bone has carried on in that line.

And please don't overlook the Standardbred influence: Black Allan (Allan F-1) and sire of Roan Allen (for some reason all Allens after are -en, not -an) was not remotely Saddlebred.

http://www.walking-horse.com/past/thebreed.html

The Dements (people) MADE the TWH, without their persistence and stubbornness this great gaiting variant would not have become a purebred American breed, just one of many ways a gaited horse could move.

Wonderful horses all. :)

scrtwh
Nov. 18, 2010, 06:25 AM
no they are different to a trained eye as a trot and a passage


Tamara in TN

Yep, they are very different. Different footfall, different tempo, different muscle groups used, much different feel undersaddle, much different look from the ground. And the rack is a lateral gait. footfalls are from one side to another and a few hairsbreadths away from a pace.

Tamara in TN
Nov. 18, 2010, 12:32 PM
The Dements (people) MADE the TWH, without their persistence and stubbornness this great gaiting variant would not have become a purebred American breed, just one of many ways a gaited horse could move.

Wonderful horses all. :)

the Dements had a few nice animals,they, however contrary to modern revisionisms, did not found anything really. Theirs were hardly pony sized animals that had fallen out of favor well into the 1930's

which is why when we were offered the purchase of the remaining entire Dement herd in the early 1990's we kindly declined ;)

I have the old sale catalogues with the extended pedigrees of the times...most of which are lost to the modern "slant" on things...

Tamara in TN

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 18, 2010, 02:20 PM
Thanks, Tamara, I do like learning new points of view that have not appeared to me before.

I suppose I am drawing lines of before and after with the families as to whether they were Saddlebred before the registry collected the many families in at it's formation in the late 1890's. At which time the name was the Saddle Horse registry and running walk was one of the accepted saddle gaits.

There is a lot of overlap with Tom Hals, Stonewall Jacksons, Squirrels, Mountain Slashers, Donalds, Blackhawks, Grey Eagles, Mambrinos, Pacing Pilots, Highlanders and others with descendents in both Saddlebred and TWH registries from outgrowths of the families.

So this link is incorrect as to the Foundation stock pedigrees?
http://www.walkerswest.com/FOUNDATIONSTOCK.htm
That would be good to know, if so.

I did notice that several of the ASR horses in the pedigrees shown on that site are non-Saddlebreds that were added in to complete the pedigree list where there was known ancestry -with obvious TB or Morgan or Standardbred antecedents.


I appreciate your help and input.

Thank you

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 18, 2010, 03:45 PM
Oh, the TWH with the German Coach Horse ancestor was Midnight Sun
http://www.walkerswest.com/Champs/MidnightSun.htm

And, yes, I realize the type has certainly changed in the years since the 1940's, but he is a well known ancestor of horses of today, just as Wing Commander is well known in the Saddlebred registry for his descendants today.

jeano
Nov. 19, 2010, 01:05 PM
My farrier says (just to rile me) that a racking horse is just a walker that wont walk.


re " They claim to have horses that rack naturally without training."


There are plenty of racking horses that rack as foals and never stop and never have to be trained to. When I lived in ohio there were neighbors two doors down who raised a backyard racking colt. He was racking around their little pasture from day one. There are also non-gaited horses that can gait as foals and then grow out of it and lose the ability. My racking horse trots at liberty but rarely under saddle. She also racks at liberty. She can runwalk, too. She paces sometimes. She can dog walk and flat walk. My walking horse trots as well as run-walks, and does NOT rack. He pulled a dog walk on me for the first time since I've had him last Sunday.

My riding buddy had a fox-trotter that racked as well as fox trotted. Her current fox trotter cant rack, can fox-trot as fast as either of my horses can gallop, purt near, but his canter is uuuuuhhhgly. My racking horse has a lovely flat canter, but likes to do the "wicky wack" a mixed gait where one end is racking and the other cantering. My walking horse has a nice rocking chair canter, and the closest he comes to a wicky wack is something that isnt a trot and isnt a running walk, but is darned comfortable to ride. Its diagonal but isnt a fox trot. I cant figure out just what the hell it is.

And the foxtrotters, the walker and the racker all were/are barefoot, so its probably not weighted shoes making the gaits happen.

Tamara in TN
Nov. 19, 2010, 01:22 PM
Oh, the TWH with the German Coach Horse ancestor was Midnight Sun
http://www.walkerswest.com/Champs/MidnightSun.htm

And, yes, I realize the type has certainly changed in the years since the 1940's, but he is a well known ancestor of horses of today, just as Wing Commander is well known in the Saddlebred registry for his descendants today.

again...this is a bit of revisionism....it was known back in the day that MS's dam was part draft horse,part black Percheron to be specific...as he became more popular as a sire/grand sire of big lick horses in the late 1960's, 1970's that was amended to some thing a little more "posh" hence the German Coach Horse majikally appearing :)

Tamara in TN

Tamara in TN
Nov. 19, 2010, 01:27 PM
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;5231071]
So this link is incorrect as to the Foundation stock pedigrees?
http://www.walkerswest.com/FOUNDATIONSTOCK.htm

incorrect ? no...
incomplete ? yes

one would believe from reading all the hype in this age, that the F horses were all bred to one another in some super secret closed breeding program...:lol:

what is almost NEVER expanded on or even discussed were the 00 (double ought) mares, which were all let in on the basis of inspection and performance of the gaits in question and it was they who (in my opinion)developed and firmented the breed into what she was from 1900-1954 which is really the classical age of the Tennessee Walking Horse

Tamara in TN

D_BaldStockings
Nov. 19, 2010, 02:47 PM
Thank you!

I'm not surprised about the Percheron, many drafts were crossed on light horses in the late 1800's to get dual purpose farm animals and those occasionally were crossed to riding stock for a lighter ride. Not to mention breeding the powerful draft mules needed before tractors became widespread. One of the early stockman journals praises a Morgan Suffolk cross as ideally frugal, long-lived and packing much power in a small active package. (no, I'm not suggesting any entered the Morgan registry.)

Percherons were a bit more rarely seen than Belgians, as they were considered more sensitive, often not so massive and later maturing than the 'big blondes'. -My next door neighbor has a team of old style Percheron mares and they are such a contrast with the Clydesdales and Belgians.

Many Saddlebred and Morgan breeders would like to 'forget' the input of unknown ancestry into their stock as well; one hears the "Oh, tracing to Thoroughbred out of a grandson of so-and so..." so often, when that is a guess at best and a marketing ploy to link to 'hot bloodlines too commonly. Horse dealers were the worst -you would get what you wanted, real or contrived!

And there were many holdout breeders who took a long time to get their stock into the registry because they saw no use in fancy papers when you could show your unregistered horse and win... or not show at all and still the local community knew who had the best horse.

Dang independent Americans!

And thank goodness all those gaited horses were exiled to the Americas (north, central and south) from the 1400's onward or they'd have been lost completely.

Tamara in TN
Nov. 19, 2010, 02:55 PM
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;5232959]Thank you!

I'm not surprised about the Percheron, many drafts were crossed on light horses in the late 1800's to get dual purpose farm animals and those occasionally were crossed to riding stock for a lighter ride.

most importantly Middle Tennesssee was and is known as the mule breeding center of the Universe and these nice draft mares (of mostly all Percheron breeding) were used to create these mules which were purchased in large numbers by the Army Remount Service...

these were nice upheaded good broodmares put to the 16 hands mammoth jacks (which are terribly rare today) not any kinda dink animals...so the "addition" of the German coach horse stallion party line later was partly laughable and partly insulting to the mare base of the time.

Tamara in TN

SmartAlex
Nov. 19, 2010, 02:57 PM
I'm not surprised about the Percheron, many drafts were crossed on light horses in the late 1800's to get dual purpose farm animals and those occasionally were crossed to riding stock for a lighter ride.

Where the American breeds diverge, a lot of the Standardbred and Walking strains were influenced by more lateral Canadian stock which was bred from an early importation of Percheron blood, can't tell you what time period, but I'm thinking it was pre-1800s. I don't know if I saved the info at home, or if dedicated Googling could bring it up, but there was a pretty interesting article out there. I'll look later.

Oh, here's some of it... http://www.eidnet.org/local/cdnhorse/history.htm