Margie Goldstein-Engle -- Bye A Reasonable Accommodation?

[CellosPride]

By now everyone has probably read the March 11th Breaking News posted on COTH about Margie's dilemma, not truly recovering from her serious injuries in time for the Selection Trials, and the denial of a Bye to take consideration of her situation.

I know everyone has taken me to task numerous times here for raising sport dispensation issues when someone has a disability or injury, and I know my husband is always taken to task when he brings these types of cases, but I, for one, just can't see the difference between PGA Tours being required by the United States Supreme Court under Title III of the Americans With Disabilities Act to modify an elite golfing rule to enable a disabled person to compete equally in National golfing tournaments, and the Selecters perhaps being required to similarly provide Margie a reasonable accommodation in the form of a Bye or otherwise reasonably modify the Team Selection rules to enable her to have equality of opportunity to make the Team. Am I alone?

It is not like we are talking about a person lacking the horse, experience, talent, or genuine ability to contribute to the Team effort and help bring home an Olympic Medal. And no one can honestly say she will be on equal footing to others who are not at her recovering stage of her recent injury. It just does not seem fair to Margie or the success of our Team efforts.

What do other people think?

[CellosPride]

By now everyone has probably read the March 11th Breaking News posted on COTH about Margie's dilemma, not truly recovering from her serious injuries in time for the Selection Trials, and the denial of a Bye to take consideration of her situation.

I know everyone has taken me to task numerous times here for raising sport dispensation issues when someone has a disability or injury, and I know my husband is always taken to task when he brings these types of cases, but I, for one, just can't see the difference between PGA Tours being required by the United States Supreme Court under Title III of the Americans With Disabilities Act to modify an elite golfing rule to enable a disabled person to compete equally in National golfing tournaments, and the Selecters perhaps being required to similarly provide Margie a reasonable accommodation in the form of a Bye or otherwise reasonably modify the Team Selection rules to enable her to have equality of opportunity to make the Team. Am I alone?

It is not like we are talking about a person lacking the horse, experience, talent, or genuine ability to contribute to the Team effort and help bring home an Olympic Medal. And no one can honestly say she will be on equal footing to others who are not at her recovering stage of her recent injury. It just does not seem fair to Margie or the success of our Team efforts.

What do other people think?

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I think there is a difference between an INJURY and a DISABILITY (from which one will not fully recover).

[Horsepower]

While I am a big fan of MGE, and think it's awful that her horse may be too old for the next Olympics, the problem with changing the rule for her is that it opens up a Pandora's Box every time a rider or a horse has an injury that affects their ability to compete. At what point would you then say the next rider does or does not get a Bye? So, sadly, I think they should not bend the rules and Margie and all of us devoted fans are out of luck.

Hast you given the horse strength? Hast thou clothed his neck with thunder? The Book of Job, 29:19

[Nickelodian]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:

And no one can honestly say she will be on equal footing to others who are not at her recovering stage of her recent injury
What do other people think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right..she won't. She can't compete up to her ability so therefor she shouldn't be able to compete at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

[Go-Go]

I think SHF nailed it on the head. I also think that Margie knows full well what is best for the team, even it it means she doesn't make it this time round, sad as that may be.

[CellosPride]

First of all, "disability" is a term of art under the ADA, and it is a very complicated statute, with complicated regulations and cases, and some temporary injuries are covered. For example, maybe a pregancy that goes wrong with complications. She had a bad type of break, that required pins and rods, not bone healing onto bone, so I am not conveinced Margie would not be covered or entitled to a Bye as a reasonable accommodation. I was just windering what others thought.

Another problem, is they already bent the rules with a Bye for Chris Kappler, whom is not injured and not disabled, so now it appears there could be disparate treatment or a selective application of the rule. So, I don't buy it that she shouldn;t get an accommodation in the form of a Bye. I know the Selection process has been reformulated several times and is not perfect, but, given her likely contribution to a Medal, I would not think it fair to tell her to wait another 4 years, and who knows if Perin will still be as good by then. Besides, Athens is pretty special in Olympic history, and didn't Lauren Hough get a dispensation to make a Team before? Pan-am, or something? I mean, this is not unheard of.

[This message was edited by CellosPride on May. 12, 2004 at 04:52 PM.]

[CellosPride]

Sorry, it posted in duplicate.

[horselesswonder]

I also admire Margie. She's simply amazing! But I agree with SHF and Horsepower. She is injured, not disabled, and a cry of "not fair!" is how we ended up with messy selection problems in the first place. As Horsepower said, who knows what would happen if one bye was granted due to an injury.

I find the comparison of objective golfing rules with a subjective decision on whether to except an injured rider from objective selection trials to be a strained one, as well. This would be an individual accommodation based on an unlucky injury, not on a permanent condition. And it would not apply to all similarly situated in the future, I would assume. It's a judgment call, not a hard-and-fast rule, right?

Edited to add that as far as I can recall, disability is not a term of art. I believe it is statutorily defined, and I'm thinking "broken leg" doesn't qualify. Application of the statute can be difficult, but I think you'd have a damn hard time convincing any court that a broken leg is a disability within the meaning of the ADA. Pregnancy is in there, true, but didn't that spring from certain social factors, such as pregnant women being denied jobs and fired? Again, not the same as a broken bone.

It's unfortunate for Margie, and she is excellent, but I think many would consider it in poor taste to litigate over the issue.

[xegeba]

Cellos........... you know how much I admire you but........ I just don't see why private entities should be told how or forced to, run their organizations in a certain way. Like the Clarett/NFL deal. Or Augusta/ women deal(it was Augusta?) I really struggle with that.

[rileyt]

For GOD'S SAKE! THIS IS NOT THE ADA BOARD! IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ADA, GO FIND AN ADA CHAT ROOM AND KNOCK YOURSELF OUT!

AAARRRRRRRGGHGGGHHGHGHGHHGH!!!!! Why am I posting this! Somebody please shoot me... I can't resist reading these insane posts, and they just make me want to stick forks in my eyeballs! It's a vicious cycle! I must read, I must drive myself crazy...

... surely that has to qualify as a "disability" in someone's book.

[rileyt]

And to answer your original post Cellos,... YES, you ARE alone. If you think the Selectors Committee OWE M.E. a "bye" and thereby a spot on the Olympic team because she was injured, you're nuts!

It is becoming more and more clear to me why you are not a licensed lawyer...

[xegeba]

riley....this is the first step.... you're doing good.

[CellosPride]

Xegeba, do a google search on 42 U.S.C. Section 12181, and see all the private entities that have to comply with the ADA. Why do they have to comply? Because we voted for a Congress that passed this law, and the Supreme Court said PGA Tours, the golfing National body had to comply. That is why I asked the question, if golfing has to accommodate golfers, why not USEF riders for selection to a Team? I was just curious.

[BB]

I could be wrong here, but I don't believe they bent the rules for Chris Kappler. They changed the selection process a few years ago to allow for one subjective selection. I think they changed it after the 2000 Olympics??

[MHM]

The obvious difference between Chris Kappler's situation and Margie's is that his horse Royal Kaliber showed very successfully this winter, and Perin has not shown at all since last year, according to the COTH article. It's not just Margie's performance that is in question- the horse counts, too. Horses change plenty from week to week, never mind from year to year.

Best wishes to Margie, but I don't see this situation as unfair in any way, just unfortunate.

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BB:
I could be wrong here, but I don't believe they bent the rules for Chris Kappler. They changed the selection process a few years ago to allow for one subjective selection. I think they changed it after the 2000 Olympics??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ding ding ding! You are correct, BB!

[bigbay]

I'm totally out of the loop here, so can someone fill me in? First, I thought the selection committee got two byes; second, I thought it was the opinion of Margie and her surgeon that if she continued to progress, she would be able to compete in the trials. So is this even an issue?

"It is good to be fine."

[tyedyecommando]

With a little manipulation every possible scenerio Cellos comes up with can be cover under the ADA. Doesn't that defeat the purpose? Does it leave no one with a challenge to overcome? It sure doesn't seem to have a level playing field like it was intended, but rather distorts any true disability. Cellos, you are really not a good advocate for people who truly have disabilities but want to live a "normal" life as YOU and making an issue out of something/anything that you can manipulate to cover under the act. Its gross really.

Margie broke her leg and I am sure that she accepts the decision that was made in denying her a bye. Question: does the olympics (and other top level competitions) allow acceptiong to the rules that would otherwise be rejected. Should a handicapped rider get an extended time allowed? Ride a shortened course than the others? I don't think so. Why should a competitior who may or may not be able to compete at a competition be allowed an exception simply because they are injured. Depending on her injury, there may be 3 other riders more able physically and competitively than her at the time, should they be denied a chance to possibly medal at the Olympics because of having to be PC.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

[xegeba]

well, Cellos, the golf thing and Showjumping is apples and oranges to me. Would you want the NFL have to make exceptions for someone who was handicapped? Change the game. Injured players sit on the bench, they don't play and get more timeout's because they are coming back from an injury. Change the game. i know this... if I was a potential to make the team, and lost my space to someone who was clearly not ready for the challenge, I would be madder than a wet hen.

[rileyt]

xegeba, I am not doing good. I am certifiable. Where is my good friend with the pretty white jacket and the fun purple pills? Where is he when I need him?

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHM:
The obvious difference between Chris Kappler's situation and Margie's is that his horse Royal Kaliber showed very successfully this winter, and Perin has not shown at all since last year, according to the COTH article. It's not just Margie's performance that is in question- the horse counts, too. Horses change plenty from week to week, never mind from year to year.

Best wishes to Margie, but I don't see this situation as unfair in any way, just unfortunate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

[xegeba]

riley... just succumb to the feelings.... let it go... it's so much easier that way. What time is it where you live? Do you drink? If so, go get a good, stiff one and enjoy the ride. It will be fun! I promise!!!!!!

[tyedyecommando]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Xegeba, do a google search on 42 U.S.C. Section 12181, and see all the private entities that have to comply with the ADA. Why do they have to comply? Because we voted for a Congress that passed this law, and the Supreme Court said PGA Tours, the golfing National body had to comply. That is why I asked the question, if golfing has to accommodate golfers, why not USEF riders for selection to a Team? I was just curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my memory, the rules of golf were not bent for handicapped golfers, they don't get extra strokes or mulligans (sp?), but rather are allowed to ride in golf carts. They are playing the exact same game as the other guy.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

[xegeba]

TIRAMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At long last!

[tyedyecommando]

xegeba- do you have a crowbar for my leg and Cellos can argue that I deserve a bye and ride in the Olympics? I know how to grab mane and my leg already have a horse inflicted dent http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

[rileyt]

xegeba, if I weren't currently pregnant, I would be downing an entire bottle of scotch right now... anything to make the pain go away!

[BLBGP]

I think the difference is that the current show jumping Olympic Selctions are geared to find who the best horse and rider combinations are at this very moment in time. There is no way to prove that Perin is in competitive shape to handle an Olympic-calibre test right now (especially after so much time off) or that MG will be in competitive shape by the Olympics. Why should they be selected over a horse and rider combination who are currently at the pinnacle of their career together?

MHM said it well. Unlike other sports, this one is truly about the animal and the person working together and both being at the top of their game. We may be able to prove through historical perspective that MG is a fabulous rider worthy of an Olympic berth, but no one knows Perin's status and without her riding, it's impossible to know.

[xegeba]

I don't think Cellos would necessarily want YOU to have that BYE, Tyedye!

[xegeba]

Good time to practice that LAMAZE breathing then................

[tyedyecommando]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
I don't think Cellos would necessarily want YOU to have that BYE, Tyedye!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pooh! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

[rileyt]

That's exactly it tyedyecommando... let me see if I understand the logic here:

I have a rare disability (called "brains") that makes it impossible for me to understand why the ADA doesn't apply to me.

In addition, my balance stinks, and my ability to find a "spot" are severely comprimised by my life long scotch addiction... another "disability"

On top of all this, my horse is disabled too, and probably couldn't jump the required 5'3" at the Olympics, due to crappy feet and a general lack of coordination.

Even if he could, I doubt I could stay on, due my other previously undiagnosed disability ("total lack of riding talent")

Therefore, I think I deserve a "bye", so that not only can I be on the Olympic team, but I also think the USEF should be required to provide me with a suitable horse (e.g. Perin) so that I have something close to a level playing field.

Is that how it works?

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rileyt:
That's exactly it tyedyecommando... let me see if I understand the logic here:

I have a rare disability (called "brains") that makes it impossible for me to understand why the ADA doesn't apply to me.

In addition, my balance stinks, and my ability to find a "spot" are severely comprimised by my life long scotch addiction... another "disability"

On top of all this, my horse is disabled too, and probably couldn't jump the required 5'3" at the Olympics, due to crappy feet and a natural lack of talent.

Even if he could, I doubt I could stay on, due my other previously undiagnosed disability ("total lack of riding talent")

Therefore, I think I deserve a "bye", so that not only can I be on the Olympic team, but I also think the USEF should be required to provide me with a suitable horse (e.g. Perin) so that I have something close to a level playing field.

Is that how it works?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool. I'm gettin' a red coat!

[rileyt]

You and me both Go-Go.

anyone else want a red coat?

[OneonOne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyedyecommando:
From my memory, the rules of golf were not bent for handicapped golfers, they don't get extra strokes or mulligans (sp?), but rather are allowed to ride in golf carts. They are playing the exact same game as the other guy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is an excellent point. Allowing Margie a bye is NOT analagous to allowing a disabled golfer to use a cart on course.

A hypothetical analagous scenario would be allowing a disabled rider to use a golf cart to get from the barn to the ring on a large show grounds where golf carts are prohibited.

(HA, golf carts prohibited at a horse show!http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

_____________________________________
Any coupon works! Beware of paper cuts!

[nycjumper]

At long last my Olympic dream will be realized!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
(and by the way, I'm about 30 minutes away & counting from my first very cold, very stiff drink!)

[CellosPride]

Does tyedye need a Bye? I would not oppose anyone legitimately needing a Bye, but I know others disagree. Well, getting back to the NFL and Augusta womens, I would think they would have to accommodate. I have seen college sports cases that do. I just wonder why USEF and the Selection would be sacrosanct. I think there is a difference between accommodating a few weeks someone might need to heal more properly (the March 11th article questioned whether Margie would heal in time), than say lowering the jumps or shortening the course. The ADA is very exacting that way, doesn't require essential functions to be changed, only other accommodations and modifications. Gymnastics does this all the time. And as for not changing the way things are, well as I recall that's what people said about "separate but equal." Sometimes new ideas are for the common good. Would we have kept Kerry Strug or Shannon Miller off an Olympic Team in a similar circumstance? I agree that Chris Kappler has won a lot recently, but Margie has quite a numerical record count of winning grand prix, a measure of consistency many otehr riders cannot claim.

[xegeba]

Oneonone... that about sums the whole thing up for me.Cellos is gonna have a tough time with that one!!! But maybe not......

[Chappy]

Good grief, give it a rest. Margie and Perin are in California and plan to do the trials. If, and I mean If, they do well in the first few trials, maybe they can then consider a conditional bye - as they did for Lauren at the Pan-Am trials. As stated many times before on this board, they can't give a bye unless the horse has performed this year. Period. Margie accepts that. While I think they would be a big asset to the team (without them, the US wouldn't even be going to the Olympics)they simply can't bend the rules. Here's hoping they kick ass this weekend!

[RodeoHunter]

Gymnastics does it all the time, because, at any given time I would say that the vast majority of elite gymnasts are competing with huge injuries....and in gymnastics you are also only looking at one individual versus 2 (horse + rider) which means one less variable to confuse things.

**Member of the Ocularly Challenged Equine Support Group**

[bigbay]

Thank you Chappy, that was the first "sensical" post on this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I was not aware that they couldn't give a bye to a horse unless he had competed this year. Does that go for just the horse, the rider too, or the horse/rider combination?

"It is good to be fine."

[BLBGP]

Hey! I thought my post was pretty darn "sensical". And MHM's and OneonOne's too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And a few others.

[Tackpud]

Circle breathing everyone - breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth. In through the nose, out through the mouth.

What will she come up with next... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[MHM]

Thanks, BLBGP! I thought so, too!

Once again, it's the horse and rider COMBINATION that needs to be evaluated at THIS time for THIS team. Margie has won plenty on other horses in the past, but does that mean Daydream and Saluut should be on the plane to Athens?

I don't think so. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Glimmerglass]

Why oh why wasn’t the second bye given to Bezzie? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Hello? She is the best rider in the US – in fact I’d notch her above Chris IMHO.

Bezzie Madden is the current ranked #1 USET rider and at #4 internationally she is the highest ranked female rider in the world and highest ranked American in the FEI Gandini World Riders Rankings. She has the most solid at present win momentum, inherent skill, and international experience of anyone to win a medal by herself or be a critical team contributor.

I am as dazzled as much as anyone by Margie, but if she didn't make Athens squad she certainly already did represent the USET in 2000 in Australia ...

[lyrical lu]

I say if Margie can trot a 7' fence she should get the bye!

But really, I think it is only sensical that she needs to perform this year to be considered for a bye.

As for Beezie, she has been kicking @ss! Did she apply for a bye?

[Chappy]

Thanks, bigbay.

[Lucassb]

As they say, "Past performance is no guarantee of future success," and I think it applies here.

There is no doubt about Margie's level of experience and when healthy, her potential contribution to a team. However, the selectors need to focus on current performance at the event approaches and giving a bye to a rider who, sadly, potentially might not recover well enough to perform at the very highest levels... simply doesn't make sense.

There is certainly plenty of room for improvement in our current selection process, but my understanding of the byes which are given is that they are a tool that can be utilized to protect a horse (and rider) from the pounding of a trials process once they have so clearly excelled in competition as to warrant a place on the team.

The horse and rider in question are obviously not at nor even near competitive form at present, and as sad as that is, it is not a reason for a bye.

**********
"It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that
matters, in the end."
-Ursula K. Le Guin

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Good time to practice that LAMAZE breathing then................<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think Lamaze breathing is a good idea for anyone hoping to go to the Olympics.

[xegeba]

Dawn! the Lamaze was for Riley who can't drink cause she is with child... I thought the Lamaze would help calm her nerves.

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Good time to practice that LAMAZE breathing then................<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think Lamaze breathing is a good idea for anyone hoping to go to the Olympics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, geez, I about lost my sheeat on that one - Dawn Mills is funny! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Maybe a Meghan would be ok, but not an Eric.

Hey, X, I sent you a PT.

[Madeline]

IMO the only person in this country RIGHT NOW who should draw an injury bye would be Kappler/Royal Kaliber. Below this pair the rest of our best riders are close enough that any one is capable of beating any other on any day. We could probably field 2 or 3 whole teams who would take turns beating each other on a regular basis. But the team with KAppler would have the advantage.

I'm not bashing Margie as I'm a definite fan, but if she gets a bye, where do you stop?

madeline

[-ponybreath-]

Dear CellosPride,
In the interest of those who are truly disabled, would you please quit attempting, rather unsuccessfully, to bend the definition of disability. Those who are truly disabled need the accomodations which have been made and are within reason. However, it is people like yourself who cause roadblocks. For those of us who are disabled, we simply wish to have fun with our horses. We don't want special treatment. I hope people don't think that you represent the disabled community, because it is not true... Most disabled people simply want to function in a fast paced world, not have it changed to suit them. Can't you just get over the fact that there might be a few bumps in your path, wherever it may lead, that you may have to conquer on your own?

From a Meghan, just not a Lamaze! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Meghan
(formerly Meg!)
visit http://www.starsandstripeswelsh.com -- home of ASP First Premium Stallion -- Tylwyth Mystic Prince

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stan the man:
I say if Margie can trot a 7' fence she should get the bye! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that with or without a horse?

[Jane]

Excellent post, Meghan!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[murdoch]

Shades of
Harrison Bergeron (http://penguinppc.org/~hollis/personal/bergeron.shtml)... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[xegeba]

Dawn.................. in the future, I would appreciate it if you could use smiley faces, so those that aren't quite bright enough(like me) know when sacarsm is in play. Never mind that I rarely use them.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[J. Turner]

murdoch -

Nice call. Love that story. The kids don't always get it in school. Does that mean I can do Grand Prix, but they have to put 100 pounds of dead weight on their legs and I get spring shoes (or 3 foot jumps)? Maybe GP riders get no stirrups, no reins? A blindfold? A pony?

My Photo Albums (http://community.webshots.com/user/jessicaseamus)

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

Toujour souviens-toi: Tout le monde qui fait le grand concours pete plus haut que son cul.

[lyrical lu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stan the man:
I say if Margie can trot a 7' fence she should get the bye! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that with or without a horse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well.....(someone stop me)....she gets one crutch and pole vaulting like maneuvers are allowed!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Duffy]

I used to win "jump the brook" when I broke my leg in second grade and was on crutches forever. (For those younger than me - what would be the VAST majority of you, it was a game we played during recess where a teacher would keep adding a chalk line, thus making the brook wider and wider to "broad jump" over. I would place my crutches half-way across and leap across. Hmmmmm....Would that mean I was being over-compensated for being temporarily disabled?

Would you believe they let me even play dodge ball? (Darn well wouldn't these days with the liability issues!)

"One of these days, my life will be simplified..."

[xegeba]

What that means Duffy is this.... YOU were the teachers pet!!!! Admit it! And all your classmates hated you!!

[Duffy]

Well, there was this third grade teacher... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"One of these days, my life will be simplified..."

[2Dogs]

Forget the true gist of this thread - I am having a drug flashback reading some of these posts - wheeeeeeeeeeee - what have y'all been dropping, puffing or snorting? I love those flights of fancy -
ok, reality check - thanks Chappy.

"Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog".
Judith Collas

[xegeba]

If you think this is bad, you should go to the Garden state thread... Moesha showed up!!!!!!!!!!

[DMK]

Forgive me if this was already posted, as I haven't read more than the first few posts, as the Ongoing Saga of ADA and How it Touches Every Damn Thing in Existence (more so than oxygen, apparently) just sucks all the joy out of my life. That's just too much for me today, but it's worth noting that the reason MGE wasn't given a bye had less to do ONLY with the fact that she is currently sidelined with an injury, and more to do with the fact that Perin hasn't had a lot of competition experience immediately prior to (and during) the injury.

It was her plan to give him off the latter part of the last year then slowly bring him back during WEF to peak him for the trials/olympics. But the horse business is famous for Best Laid Plans and all that. It sucks, but I have to be honest and allow that the Committee just might be making the fair decision here. And anyone who knows me, knows there is NOBODY more in Steve and Margie's corner.

Besides, the fact that they haven't given out the second bye indicates to me that they could still consider it based on watching Perin perform in the trials. That may be wishful thinking on my part, but I hope if it looks like the horse is 100% there and Margie is 90% there and expected to be 100% by the games, then they will give her the bye.

Somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot. www.seeyageorge.com (http://www.seeyageorge.com)

[LuvTheDutch]

As much as I love Margie, I do not feel that we should give her a bye because she was involved in a freak accident ... I actually would rather she did not compete in the trials unless she was fully healed, let alone be allowed to represent us in the Olympics unless 1) she is 100% and 2) she earns the spot fair and square in the trials, therefore proving she and her wonderful horse are ready ...

I only made it through page 2 thus far, but I must also say that they did not bend the rules in any way for Chris ... I think it was the last selection trials that they changed the rule to allow for 2 subjective byes IF the committee chooses to do so ... Roy was AMAZING last year and has come back very strong this year and after anchoring the US team to a gold medal which gave us the ability to show in this years Olympics, I think a bye is of no question for such an amazing pair ...

[Hunterblue]

so http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif what happened to Margie?? i didnt hear about it!! ya ya i kno i didnt hear

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Good time to practice that LAMAZE breathing then................<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think Lamaze breathing is a good idea for anyone hoping to go to the Olympics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMGiH!! ROTFLMAO!! Absolutely DYING here!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

[Everythingbutwings]

Maddie gets so worked up that she ought to practise Lamaze breathing but, since she is SO MADDIE! that she forgets, is that covered by ADA?

I am burdened by a top measurement of 36 double D. It is definately a hindrance. Have I been missing out on major byes all these years?

CP has lost any credence with me long ago. I don't think anyone with a handicap truly wishes preferential treatment, just a fair chance to get along in life.

The Olympics aren't designed around making everything even, they are to bring out the absolute BEST in the world. The Olympic Selection Trials are just that. Many times, a competitor with a great horse has had their horse picked and not themselves or vice versa.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[WhatzUp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Good time to practice that LAMAZE breathing then................<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are TOO funny ... I may rebreak my
ribs laughing so hard !!!

Took me a second to figure it out ...

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[OneonOne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -ponybreath-:
Dear CellosPride,
In the interest of those who are truly disabled, would you please quit attempting, rather unsuccessfully, to bend the definition of disability. Those who are truly disabled need the accomodations which have been made and are within reason. However, it is people like yourself who cause roadblocks. For those of us who are disabled, we simply wish to have fun with our horses. We don't want special treatment. I hope people don't think that you represent the disabled community, because it is not true... Most disabled people simply want to function in a fast paced world, not have it changed to suit them. Can't you just get over the fact that there might be a few bumps in your path, wherever it may lead, that you may have to conquer on your own?

From a Meghan, just not a Lamaze! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Meghan, I think I can safely say that those of us here on COTH know that CP doesn't represent the entire disabled community. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So don't worry that she might be tainting our opinions of the truly disabled (who really do need accomodations) and those who choose accept the challenges of their lives with grace.

_____________________________________
Any coupon works! Beware of paper cuts!

[OneonOne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bits and Pieces:
[You are TOO funny ... I may rebreak my
ribs laughing so hard !!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you do, we can probably get you a bye so you can compete in the Olympics. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_____________________________________
Any coupon works! Beware of paper cuts!

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
the Ongoing Saga of ADA and How it Touches Every Damn Thing in Existence (more so than oxygen, apparently) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

[xegeba]

Tiramit... where have you been? you are not still dating that lawyer are you?

[Gayle]

I think I have a perfect example of a "reasonable accomodation" that directly relates to this! (I know you are shocked but hey I cleared a bunch of cob webs out of the old brain box remembering this!)

I remember reading an article in Practicle Horseman about Peter Leone after he won a silver medal at the 96 Olympics. He had fallen off a greenie and fractured his shoulder before the trials. The only accomodation he asked for (and received) was to be able to show at the trials without a coat as it was too painful post surgery to get one on and ride in it. His brothers spent inordinate amounts of time pouring through the FEI regs to determine exactly which meds Peter could take and still qualify etc. to help him be successful and make the team.

So, if it was good enough for Peter Leone to go to the trials and qualify then why should it be considered any different now? Margie is doing the same thing he did: go to the trials with the injury and qualify based on performance. He did it that way and came home with an Olympic medal and if anyone else can do it, it would definetly be Margie Engle.

"The credit belongs to those people who are actually in the arena...who know the great enthusiasms, the great devotions to a worthy cause; who at best, know the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, fail while daring greatly, so that their place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

[CellosPride]

Hmmm ... to confirm the unpopularity of the ADA and the definition of "those who are truly disabled" as somewhere in the definition of people who are covered, I went on LEXIS. I never did find that restrictive a phrase as the definition, what I did find were two groups of individuals whom are "qualified" under the ADA -- those "with" reasonable accommodations and those "without." (42 U.S.C. Section 12131(2)). I guess most folks around these parts figure those whom can compete "without" reasonable accommodations are "truly disabled," while those who must compete "with" reasonable accommodations are not disabled at all. Interesting logic, but it would probably fail the Socratic method and the first day of law school. As for the unpopularity of the ADA, it seems it was popular enough, in light of the voters electing the Congress and President whom passed it, and the United States Supreme Court, no less, said preferences are the rule. US Airlines v. Barnett, 1999. I have read about 5000 ADA cases over 14 years, and my question about Margie and a Bye being a reasonable accommodation was classic, vintage ADA. I am just curious, if it were Chris Kapppler in Margie's position, would people feel differently? And why is everyone so hostile to the opportunities the ADA opens up for those whom need it, when Congress passed it by a landslide?

[Tiramit]

Hi xegeba! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I've been around, but not as much as you lately, darling. Irreverent conversation on the BB? Chances are xegeba's right in the thick of things! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

No, I've given up lawyers. Lawyers (or would be lawyers) tend to make a case out of any commonplace human occurence. I need to find a more sane group of men to bamboozle.

CellosPride, please just give it up. Margie didn't do anything more exciting than fall and break her leg. Sad fact, but true. Most of us look at it as bad luck, not an opportunity to take our internationally competitive team all the way to the Supreme Court.

Sheesh, if you have your way, the USEF will need to install guard rails on courses and allow extra time for the disabled in jump offs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

[Coca-Cola]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for the unpopularity of the ADA, it seems it was popular enough, in light of the voters electing the Congress and President whom passed it, and the United States Supreme Court, no less, said preferences are the rule. US Airlines v. Barnett, 1999. I have read about 5000 ADA cases over 14 years, and my question about Margie and a Bye being a reasonable accommodation was classic, vintage ADA. I am just curious, if it were Chris Kapppler in Margie's position, would people feel differently? And why is everyone so hostile to the opportunities the ADA opens up for those whom need it, when Congress passed it by a landslide? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, Congress is staffed by a bunch of greedy good ol' boys who are too busy voting themselves absurd double-digit raises while the rest of The People are getting no raises at all or are unemployed. Just because they pass something doesn't mean it's a good thing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

But, honestly, I don't think this debate has anything to do with the "popularity" of the ADA, or anyone feeling "hostile" towards the ADA. I think it has to do with certain lawyer-wanna-be's who find any excuse, no matter how bizarre or far-fetched, to shove this act in our collective faces. We are sick to freakin' death of your endless preaching and threats of litigiousness based on your interpretation of the ADA, even where the act was never intended to apply in society. Ya think???? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

The analogy you are giving as to why MGE deserves a bye is akin to saying that just because William DeBakey is an amazing heart surgeon, he deserves to operate on the next high-profile person in need of a heart transplant, whether or not he is fit (mentally or physically) to do so. The man may be brilliant, but if he's got the shakes or a broken hand, I'll take the #2 guy, thanks all the same. Because at that moment, the guy who is normally #2 in talent and ability, is really #1 while DeBakey is not performing at his best. But if you want someone who is not at their best...not even close... attempting to perform at the highest level, where one MUST be at their best, by all means carry on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Heather]

I rarely respond to these threads, but I think a major point that CP is missing is that the bye's were not designed to deal with disability or injury issues. They CAN be used for that, but that is not why they exist--they were created to allow for some subjective methods of team selection after many years of strictly objective criteria giving us poor teams. But they were not created to deal with injured riders--thats why Chris got one--they were really created to ensure that a horse and rider who had proven to be exceptionally on form would still be sound, rested, and healthy for the Games.

People aren't pleased about the bye for Chris because "we like him better than margie" but because he and the horse have proven to be exceptionally on form. If he was in the same state as margie--hadn't competed since last year, and a broken leg and coudn't get the horse back in the ring, well, I honestly think people would feel the same. Sucks, but too bad for him.

By the token of your logic, BTW, how would you feel about this if it were, say, Perin who was hurt, instead of Margie? Maybe a small tendon lesion, that would be well healed by the games, but meant no jumping for six weeks. Would the ADA sugggest we not jog him? Have the course layed out at trot rails sohe could trot the course without straining his tendon further? Would the FEI ground jury at Athens be required to pass him if he were head bobbing lame as a "reasonable" accomodation?

I do not know anyone who thinks the ADA is a bad idea. So I have no idea where that comes from. But just like with anything, there is a point at which things can devolve in to the absurd. I mean, we don't let blind people drive. Even though I'm sure there are plenty who would prefer to be able to travelindependantly. We haven't invented magic padded lanes so people that can't see can scrape along by feel from place to place. Because we all understand that blind people shouldn't drive. Even the blind people can see that.

[OneonOne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Hmmm ... to confirm the unpopularity of the ADA [snip]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The ADA is not unpopular here. The unpopularity lies with those people that bring the ADA into every damn conversation. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

_____________________________________
Any coupon works! Beware of paper cuts!

[Silk]

Damn One on One! You beat me to it!!

Seriously, Cp, you are a real pain in the ass. I am truly disabled, and you embarass me. I am still not convinced you are disabled. I am pretty convinced you couldnt do what I do, if you had to deal with what I deal with in terms of physical disability.

Now please, shut up and leave us truly disabled individuals alone. The laws work for me, probably because I am nice about requesting "special" things. I have never been turned down, but I dont march in with a giant chip on my disabl;ed shoulders. threatening a law suit if I cant get my salmon grilled without the sauce becasue I am disabled and cant eat it any other way! I also always get to let my disabled eyes adjust when showing indoors, a few minutes before starting my coutesy circle. I ask nicely, explain one of my disabilities, and am always allowed the accomodation.

Now, again, shut up and go away. I am sick of you!

By the way, are you going to sue me for picking on you? Can one disabled person sue another for discrimination? Go for it. I dont dislike you because you are disabled; I dislike you because you are a pain-in-the-ass troublemaker who gives the ones who request accomodations nicely a bad name!

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

[eclipse]

OHMYGOD, I had a severe radial head break a few years ago, a plate, & now my arm won't straighten up properly.......do you mean to tell me that I could of been competing in the Olympics on a bye this year!!!!!!! Get over it, injuries are injuries. Yes, they can SOMETIMES turn into disabilities but generally not. Injuries take time to heal, sometimes lots of time. Push an injured person early & guess what it may never heal properly. Why would MGE even want to take that chance??

God, leave the disability sprouting to someone who actually needs it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And, from the disabled people that I know (& yes I do know a few), they would rather try & accomplish things on their own....NOT be whining & advertising their problems at every possible moment!!

Blah blah blah, I'm a lawyer, blah blah blah, not fair, blah blah blah, my husband (lawyer), blah blah blah. Good greif I feel like I'm in the middle of a peanuts cartoon!!!

"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"

[rileyt]

tee hee. I love you guys. You can always count on horsepeople to clean out the manure.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[lauriep]

For the record, Lauren did get a bye for the PanAms, AFTER she completed a portion of the trials riding with a broken collarbone, on a horse that had been showing consistently well. Not the case with Margie at all, but I would bet dollars to donuts that if she can jump a clean round this weekend, the bye may be hers.

Also, they aren't going to rush to give the second bye to ANYONE just yet, before the first horse has jumped, before we have gone to Europe, because then they would have NO options left to them for any other potential combinations. Margie knows this; she is a hard core competitor and understands the way the game is played.

rileyt, those forks in your eyes ar SURE to qualify you for some ADA compensation!

CP, you are clearly not current on your show jumping rules and news. Perhaps you should stay off Lexis and read some USEF news instead.

Laurie

[horseygurl182]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I was just talking with my mom the other day about how CellosPride hasn't shown up in awhile, but looky here, she's baaaaack! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

*Worthwhile*
*Believe In Me*
*Bolero*
*Look No Further*

[PeanutButterCup]

I think that's cause her computer broke during the 'no LUNGEING at Devon' thread.

[Nick of Thyme]

Well, I am from Canada and still depressed that we couldn't even manage to qualify a team for Athens. But I haven't kept up to date with the US stuff either. Chris Kappler got a bye? So that means he is going to the olympics, based on his past performance, because lately him and his horse have been so good? So he doesn't have to worry about going through the gruelling trials? Am I right? Just curious! Since we only have one individual to qualify, I might as well entertain myself with your team qualifiers!

Member of the Paint Hunter clique

http://community.webshots.com/user/nickofthyme

[flshgordon]

Ponybreath & Silk---thanks for saying what I, as a non-disabled person, have not been able to articulate correctly!!!

In my field I deal with ADA laws & regs most every day and NOTHING gets me more angry than dealing with people who completely abuse the purpose of it the way CP does. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif All that does is foster more bad feelings towards people that truly NEED the protections outlined by the law.

Almost everyone so far seems to be a big Margie fan and if you notice CP, almost everyone feels she does not deserve the Bye in this case. I bet Margie feels she doesn't deserve it either.

I've been silent on your past posts CP, but I too now wish you would quit whining about the hand you've been dealt in life and trying to turn everything into a court case against the ADA or COTH. All you are doing is creating more prejudice where none may have existed before.

[ride2hounds]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coca-Cola:
But, honestly, I don't think this debate has anything to do with the "popularity" of the ADA, or anyone feeling "hostile" towards the ADA. I think it has to do with certain lawyer-wanna-be's who find any excuse, no matter how bizarre or far-fetched, to shove this act in our collective faces. We are sick to freakin' death of your endless preaching and threats of litigiousness based on your interpretation of the ADA, even where the act was never intended to apply in society.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bravo! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Dancing Lawn]

Just curious, but does Margie feel she is disabled, or just recovering from an injury? Being disabled would suggest that she is permantently injured, and that isn't the impression I'm getting. Maybe we should ask her?

Just one damn thing after another.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com) updated April 4/04 http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglawn
httpIf guys can do it, how hard can it be?

[tidy rabbit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Does tyedye need a Bye? I would not oppose anyone legitimately needing a Bye, but I know others disagree. Well, getting back to the NFL and Augusta womens, I would think they would have to accommodate. I have seen college sports cases that do. ... The ADA is very exacting that way, doesn't require essential functions to be changed, only other accommodations and modifications. Gymnastics does this all the time. And as for not changing the way things are, well as I recall that's what people said about "separate but equal." Sometimes new ideas are for the common good. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe this what the SPECIAL OLYMPICS is for?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
~~Every year the senseless slaughtering of millions just for their hides. Poor little Naugas.~~

What if we're all only existing in Rugbug's imagination?

[Sam Iam]

Not a lawyer, and didn't read this entire thread, but I don't believe ADA even applies here. I believe to get protection under ADA one must have a permanent disability that alters a major life-function. Clearly, Margie's injury is not permanent and I doubt that competing in the Olympic trials is considered a major life-function. Also, I know pregnancy has been tossed around here as being covered under ADA, but again I'm not so sure. Pregnancy is covered under the Pregnancy Discrimination Act. Pregnancy is considered to be a temporary disability I believe and therefore not covered. Just my 2 cents, and again I'm no lawyer.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rileyt:
For GOD'S SAKE! THIS IS NOT THE ADA BOARD! IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ADA, GO FIND AN ADA CHAT ROOM AND KNOCK YOURSELF OUT! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Does CP EVER post on anything not ADA related?

[katherine w]

Why can they not show that Perin is in form by letting someone else ride him? They say they are only naming a short list at this time, see that he's in form and add him to your short list. Then, when they officially choose the team after Aachen they will know if they want him or not and Margie will have had a better chance to recover.

I love Margie and I want her to be better and on the team but, if Perin is so awesome and she's seriously unsure about riding then why not put this great horse with an equally great rider? That way our country gets the best horse? _ I know it will never happen but still...

[Indie]

Take a look at this article on the six riders with disabilities competing in the upcoming Paralympic Games.

http://www.dressagedaily.com/2004/dd_200405/dd_20040509.html

Lynn Seidemann is from my area, and to watch her ride is truly inspirational. I've also seen Robin Brueckmann ride. Both seem to be very proud women, both getting on with life and riding.

[CuteHunter]

I have read NONE of this thread yet (have to do some work at my job!) but frankly, as soon as I saw the original post I was appalled.

This, like many sports, is a dangerous one. Injuries of all sorts are a reality in all sports - particularly riding. Margie (who by the way, I love as rider and would love to see her in at least the selection process) is INJURED. That's a fact, an unfortunate fact but true none the less.

CP - where do you propose we draw the line? Should every injured althelete recieve a bye?? One cant possibly believe that. When a hockey player gets injured, we dont post-pone the playoffs so that player can heal - we accept that with sport comes injury and we move on. Altheletes get injured ALL THE TIME - its fact they have to accept and its ridiculous to think that injuries warrant special priviledge for altheletes competing at the top of their game.

* * * * * * * * * *

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

Cute Hunter: very well said.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuteHunter:
Athletes get injured ALL THE TIME - its fact they have to accept and its ridiculous to think that injuries warrant special priviledge for athletes competing at the top of their game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A couple weeks ago when the big brouhaha about the HS kid wanting to go into the NFL draft, one ex player/now commentator said the truest thing I ever heard about athletes:

"The day you start competing at the highest level of any sport is the last healthy day you will ever know."

Yup. Comes with the turf.

[Gunnar]

I agree with Cutehunter that injuries are a fact of life.If all Olympic althetes could get a bye if they were injured what would happen. Timing is everything. Sorry Margie.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I'll bet Margie understands - she doesn't seem like the whiner type to me. Am I correct that CP is the one who wants a bye for Margie, not margie herself?

[DMK]

Seahorse, you are correct!

[Ruby G. Weber]

The bottom line is WINNING! The current selection process undermines that goal including the fear of lawsuits/litigation.

The Selectors and the Chef should pick a team.

In Margie's case she should be the first or even the second alternate.

As the time approaches for the Chef to name the official team for Athens, the four horse/rider combinations going the best should represent our country in Athens.

As long as we continue to force the horses to jump an Olympics before the actual Olympic Games, as long as we expect the Chef to produce a wimming team whilst one arm is tied behind the Chef's back, we will continue to be missing from the medal stand.

[Black Market Radio]

I need a bye because my double-dilute reverse appaloosa jumping spider is at a SEVERE disadvantage. He can trot 10' jumps and everything! Oh, and I am a blond so that puts me at a severe disadvantage too...

[Texas]

Personally I think it is irritating that so many posters on this topic are rude to CP. If someone has an impassioned point, just make it and don't be insulting.

Our Team selection system is BROKEN, people. It was not always like this, but then a lawsuit-happy rider sued and this was the easiest way to solve things. Easiest, not the best. Getting "byes" is a compromise to a compromise anyway, so don't get too righteous about it.

In MY opinion we are recklessly endangering one of our brightest, most talented and experienced stars by making Margie compete while injured. And she will, because she is a competitor, and if she gets hurt it will be the USA's loss.

Also, since the tone of this topic is so contentious, I will point out: Experience in this sport matters more than in most sports. Saying that a rider's excellent performance for many years is not indication of doing well again is uninformed. Don't defend a bad system just because it is in place.

[Duffy]

Texas, unfortunately it is not just this thread where CP rants...

[rileyt]

Texas- If you've read all of CP's "other" threads... and still think we're all being rude, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Maybe we're being rude anyway. But I think if you read all those other threads, you will at least get a better sense of the general level of exacerbation held by many posters, and while its still no excuse, it may help explain why some of us are "less than polite" with her.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I repeat:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Does CP EVER post on anything not ADA related? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Madison]

Texas, if CP had posted a topic that said "should Margie have received a bye" no one would have had a problem with it and the discussion likely would have been polite and interesting. But instead the references to the ADA just made it seem like another thinly veiled attempt to address CP's personal agenda. And CP should know by now that people on this board, even those who are sympathetic to the challenges she faces (and there certainly are some), aren't interested in having her agenda repeatedly pushed to the forefront in every topic she brings up.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:
And CP should know by now that people on this board, even those who are sympathetic to the challenges she faces (and there certainly are some), aren't interested in having her agenda repeatedly pushed to the forefront in every topic she brings up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adding on, many doubt or wonder exactly what her "challenges" exactly are, since she first claimed to have Downs Syndrome, but now claims to have a combination of autistic spectrum with specific learning disabilities, impacted by a cervical injury.

[Texas]

This is a very difficult issue. I think the change to computer-based selection was a liability-reducing move to avoid true change. But the ramifications have been huge. It caused a decay in spectator interest for one, because having a coach, especially a winning one, appeals to fans. Also, we started losing.

Riding goes much deeper than a purely athletic sport, because it involves the mercurial and coaxable horse. Some riders have the ability to get the best from their animal in high-pressure situations, and this ability does not go away with an injury or layoff. Riding is like riding a bike: you don't forget. It's NOT gymnastics, where your physical peak is the issue.

A single set of competitions can only measure this vital factor in a most random way. Are any other nations bound to this kind of computer system? I believe we are alone in tying our own hands. IMO, we should give Margie time to heal and keep her in the wings. If she and her horse are ready and needed, there should be no artifical complications to putting her on the team. Victory is the only measure that matters. As an earlier poster said--it's about WINNING! We haven't been doing much of it.

Also, a sanely-run sport should not compel one of our known best to take a needless risk against our maybe-best-that-day.

[Chef Jade]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruby G. Weber:


The Selectors and the Chef should pick a team.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh goodie! You mean I get to select the team??? Why didn't anyone tell me sooner. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Black Market Radio]

Please pick me and my jumping spider! He's really cute!!!!

[MAD]

All this talk of Greece and Spiders! Here is some Greek for you:

Arachne was a famous, haughty weaver who challenged the goddess Athena to a competition of skill. Athena, the goddess of wisdom, war, and crafts (among other things) became duly ticked off, and accepted.

In what can only be described as a catfight of epic proportions, Athena wove a picture of prideful humans being punished by mighty gods, while Arachne wove the mythological equivalent of a Jackie Collins novel, showing the gods engaging in all manner of lascivious affairs and wanton activities.

Here's the problem -- Arachne's tapestry was obviously better, so Athena destroyed it.

Arachne, completely anguished, tried to hang herself, but Athena turned her into a spider instead.

And we thought we have problems on the BB from time to time?

[Coreene]

It's all Greek to me! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
It's all Greek to me! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my question is: if you were once a "famous, haughty weaver" but find yourself suddenly a spider, are you eligible for disability and would you get a bye?

[BLBGP]

When I was in Greece there were so many spiders!!! And they were brave little suckers, too. You'd be walking down the trail and they'd run out in the middle of your path and raise their front legs up at you like a crab. Then there were other ones that built huge webs and you'd walk along and if you got too close they'd sit in the middle of their web and start shaking them violently. There were times I'd look around and realize I was surrounded by them with no idea how I got into the middle of it all. SCARY!

[Texas]

I am beginning to realize many of the posters on this topic are actually mean, spoiled children. Like Debbie Dolan, the kind that have so injured the sport. A good way to wrap this up, thanks.

[MAD]

If you are directing your comment at me, I believe I answered how I feel in a previous post. For those that know me personally, most will say that I do not have a mean bone in my body.

You are trying to open a debate that no one wants to debate on this thread, it appears.

[CellosPride]

Thank you Texas. A lot of people ARE mean to me here, and what diametrically opposed positions -- on the one hand, Madison, if I had the ability or gift to use language the way you and most people do, that is, how you think I should have phrased my question, don't you suppose I would have done so instead of incurring the wrath of those whom, on the other hand, hate my impaired use of language so much they say I don't have a disability and attack me for it? The problem is one of ignorance, for example, Horselaw thinking only about Title I of the ADA (employers), whereas I was talking about Titles II and III, and measuring mental disabilities by physical ones, all of which goes to show why CP and her compassion for people with disabilities and injuries isn't going away anytime soon. Texas made exactly the point I was trying to make, that is why foster such a system that a great rider pushes herself to compete at the risk of exacerbation of injuries or having them become permanent -- our loss --when a reasonable accommodation or modification to the rules would elimiate that problem and how does this harm anyone? Unless, of course, people whom aren't injured are thinking, ha ha, look, one person down, so I have a better chance at her expense. Isn't this what is really causing the hostility to my question?

[bigbay]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
that is why foster such a system that a great rider pushes herself to compete at the risk of exacerbation of injuries or having them become permanent -- our loss --when a reasonable accommodation or modification to the rules would elimiate that problem and how does this harm anyone? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sets a dangerous precedent. I'm assuming you know about precedents. Where do you draw the line?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> if I had the ability or gift to use language the way you and most people do, that is, how you think I should have phrased my question, don't you suppose I would have done so instead of incurring the wrath of those whom, on the other hand, hate my impaired use of language so much they say I don't have a disability and attack me for it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, CP, you seem to have a rather amazing gift of language, far more so than the average person or poster. Yet you continually claim to be at a disadvantage. Please keep in mind that none of us know you, our only reference and our only context is what we can see posted on this BB. There may be flaws in your logic and reasoning, but I for one see no evidence of a language disability. If I have missed something, I apologize.

[Jaysee]

CP, who in their right mind would even correlate the two? An injury now equals a disability? I understand if you are permanently disabled, but Margie's injury is just one of the inherent risks one may encounter when one is involved with horses (duh). Just ask my friend that got her leg broken in Kentucky the other day when she was hacking a horse. Maybe she needs a bye since she is temporarily disabled. Maybe she and MGE can file a class action suit against whoever/whatever caused these particular unfortunate events. This whole thing is ludicrous! Apparently CP, you have far too much time on your hands to think about inane subject matter. Perhaps if you posted interesting things without constantly bringing the ADA into it, you wouldn't receive such negative feedback.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Hmmm ... to confirm the unpopularity of the ADA ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It ain't the ADA that's unpopular. It's your bizarre use of it as some sort of clicker trained non sequitur.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Cellos Pride:
The problem is one of ignorance <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You have no idea what you are talking about or with whom you are dealing with when you make such general statements on a public BB.

My suggestion is that you educate yourself on what is an injury and what is a disability before you start bringing up case law or Title II.

Social Security defines "disability" as the "inability to engage in any substantial gainful activity by reason of any medically determinable physical or mental impairment which can be expected to result in death or has lasted or is expected to last for a continuous period of not less than 12 months."

I'm not sure why this argument is going on since the injury that only you are claiming is a disability but everyone else is claiming to be an injury is less than 12 months old and therefore would not/could not/should not be considered a disability. You should know this law, expert that you are.

I believe what you are referring to (Titles II), I've copied below. Qualified is an important word in Title II. The Selection Trials are designed to select Qualifed Team members. No one has been disallowed from competing in the trials that I know of.
Take it or Leave it.
You've argued and lost against this jury of one.

Title II (ADA)
"No qualified individual with a disability shall, by reason of such disability, be excluded from participation in or be denied the benefits of the services, programs, or activities of a public entity" .

[-ponybreath-]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:
And CP should know by now that people on this board, even those who are sympathetic to the challenges she faces (and there certainly are some), aren't interested in having her agenda repeatedly pushed to the forefront in every topic she brings up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adding on, many doubt or wonder exactly what her "challenges" exactly are, since she first claimed to have Downs Syndrome, but now claims to have a combination of autistic spectrum with specific learning disabilities, impacted by a cervical injury. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting to note that CP's disabilities wouldn't make her eligible to compete for the disabled teams, at least not the driving ones. (I am usually just a lurker here on H/J!).... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[HRobs]

Cellos- I am pretty new to these boards, so I'm only starting to get an idea what the people on these boards are like, and I think it's pretty safe to say that, for the most part, these people are decent, respectable people (you included) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But, to you and a few other people, they are starting to come across as "mean" or like they're "attacking" you. I, personally just think that they, as stated previously, are getting a little tired and frustrated with the ADA constantly being thrust into the discussions, which may or may not have some relation to the topic or discussion. I admire you for any kind of struggles or battles that you have had to endure in the past and or present, but I think that it would be better for everyone (including you) if the ADA were left out of discussions as mush as possible. It would be fine if the ADA were ALREADY involved in a case that is horse related to discuss the ADA, but seeming how the ADA wasn't aren't and will not be involved in the "no lungeing at Devon" matter or this "issue" involving Margie G.-Engle, I don't see how the ADA has anything to do with these topics, and would be best if it were left out.

Again, I have NOTHING against you, or any disability you may have, as I have Rheumatoid Arthritis in my knees and have decided to quit riding because it's just too hard and hurts too much. Now, RA isn't, in my books, a disability, so I really admire someone who can overcome their real disabilities and disadvantages and keep riding and pursue their dreams or ambitions in life, which you clearly have.

I think it would be a really good idea if you found another BB to discuss the ADA related topics, and stayed on this BB as well to discuss horse related topics, as I think that your experiences and intellect would of great value to these boards once you have another more appropriate place to discuss the ADA http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Thank you, and I hope that you read this post and hopefully will take the way it was intended to be taken (in good nature) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kellsboro Jack]

From the "mainstream" media with today's Miami Herald 5/14: "Still-injured rider to saddle up for chance at Olympics" (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/8662380.htm?1c)

What is exceptionally odd is how the article not once uses the name Engle. Margie did marry Steve Engle and took his name years ago, albeit the Goldstein-Engle.

[DMK]

We try to keep Steve (aka "the Miracle Man") hidden. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But the Heral reported on Margie way back when as the hometown favorite, so they probably pulled info from her file and her pre-Steve years. Or that's my best guess...

[Box-of-Rox]

ok, why do i even bother?

on the disability front: if margie (whom I love (oh, oh note the non-painful usage--was anyone else bothered? do i just have an ubermodern ear?)) would listen to her doctors, even just a little, she would be back in fighting shape. Just not in time for the trials or for the olympics. For what I know won't be the last time, she is injured. not disabled.

On why she shouldn't get a bye: Margie is a great rider, and Perin's a great horse. If one were to pick a handfull of horse-rider combos that represented the essence of top american showjumping for the last 4 years, they would certainly be in that group. But inclusion in that handful shouldn't be synonymous with a ticket to athens.

being on the olympic team shouldn't be a reward for four years of good work. the full team should be combinations of horses and riders who are most likely to bring home a medal. an injured (or even disabled) rider is not going to get that caption in the high school year book. Perin's training has been inturrupted. Margie will be riding injured, even at Athens. We should not have injured riders and off-schedule horses on our team, no matter how well-respected they are.

I would rather have a lesser rider in better form riding than margie in comprimised form, and a lesser horse in better form jumping than Perin in comprimised form. Furthermore, if margie's leg goes in the middle of a round, those will be US rails, even if an alternate can be called in to finish the job. Enough rails come down due to the breeze under a horse's belly that we don't need to have an almost-guaranteed drop score on the team. There are enough fit, capable, winning horse-rider combinations to fill a team without Margie.

If she proves that she and Perin are as fit, capable, and winning as they were nine months ago, then she'll be a tremendous asset to the team. If they are not, then they have no place on the team just for being them.

lastly: CellosPride: put away the f*&lt;king thesaurus. it does not impress people, it does not make people think you are more lawyer-ly, and it does nothing to encourage people to understand your "disability." and it's just annoying.

[dab]

Is anybody else wondering if Margie's considered giving another rider the opportunity to ride Perin in the trials? -- Isn't having an injured rider a handicap that could keep Perin from making the team? -- Shouldn't the selection committee allow a reasonable accommodation (sound rider) for Perin?

[CellosPride]

I don't need a thesaurus; one of the defining characteristics of my disability is a nearly perfect 100% photographic long-term memory. Another defining characteristic is being extremely talented in one or two narrow areas, which for me (with dictation) is legal writing and riding horses. In other areas, I am very impaired. This is called developmental imbalances, but then I believe we have discussed my disabilities ad naseaum here, and I wrote about Margie, not myself.

As for juries of one, I believe they were banned by the Framers when our Constitution was written, and, as exemplified, for good cause. I don't know where self-appointed gossip police study law, but I have actual legitimate degrees, including a J.D./M.B.A., passed the Nation’s hardest bar exam, and studied the ADA, Social Security Act, and a number of other State and Federal disability laws for more than 14 years. I guess my ‘lack of knowledge’ in the subject of the ADA is why everytime I have had to litigate in that area, the other side has hired 6 or more attorneys to take me on.

In any event, the "disability" definitions of the ADA and Social Security Act are entirely different. A few years ago, 1999 I believe, there was a US Supreme Court case where an employer raised judicial estoppel against an employee who claimed a right to reasonable accommodation under the ADA because the employee received SSI Social Security Act benefits as "totally and permanently disabled." The Supreme Court said they Acts did not contain the same definition of disability, and a person could be covered under both at the same time, or one or the other, and that to know which one(s), an "individualized assessment" was required.

The ADA defines “disability” not as “totally and permanently disabled” but as to whether a person is "substantially limited in one or more major life activities," which means significantly restricted in nature, manner, or duration in how that major life activity is performed as compared to the average person. There are several "major life activities," such as seeing, breathing, sleeping, learning, caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, driving, thinking, speaking, writing, etc., and any one will cover a person. Even if no one impairment or disability or injury rises to that level, in combination together they may, causing the person to be covered under the ADA. The ADA definition can include less than “total and permanent disabilities” and can include injuries, impairments, cosmetic disfigurements, having a “record of” disability, or even being “regarded as” having a disability. I have no difficulty proving I have one or more disabilities under the ADA, and I have already been determined as covered by more than one State public entity. So, anyone still quibbling with that is really quibbling with a final decision closing the subject. And I believe that means it is res judicata.

So it is not as simple as everyone's stereotyping about disabilities and misconstruing one disability law as being the same as another makes it sound. Anyone who really cares about the subject can find a wealth of public information, Titles I, II, III, and other Titles, federal regulations under each Title, Technical Assistance Manuals for each Title, etc. (a LOT more than just one quote from one part of one statutory provision), on the ADA Homepage of the US DOJ website. In addition, there are more than 5000 ADA cases, and other similar disability laws that can import case law and define terms into the ADA, such as an airlines federal statute, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, and the Federal Fair Housing Act. I assist my husband in this area, in which I have worked, researched, and studied for more than 14 years for several attorneys in California and Florida.

But that is neither here nor there, as the call of the question I asked was about what people thought about the idea of providing Margie a Bye as a reasonable accommodation to allow her to be selected for the Team in a manner that does not put her health at such high risk.

So, with all the people who don't WANT to know the ADA or why it concerns the subject hunter jumper activities on this Board, CP isn't going anywhere anytime soon. There are disabled people whom love hunters and jumpers and want inclusion on this Board and in this Sport (CP is one of them), which, by the rudeness and stereotyping going on here is still lacking.

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
So, with all the people who don't WANT to know the ADA or why it applies to the subject hunter jumper activities on this Board, CP isn't going anywhere anytime soon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But the ADA DOES NOT apply to Margie's situation. Do you honestly not see that? And even if the ADA could be used to give Margie a bye, then EVERY person who applies for one will need to be given one.

With your logic, the mere fact that physical prowess is used as a criterion for selection is in violation of the ADA. There is not a single court in the country which would agree with you on this issue. Maybe to some this would be an interesting question to raise, but now that it has been answered, why don't you be a lady (like Margie http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) and let it go! I respect that you have an interest in disability law, but when the ADA does not apply to an issue, you really have to learn to accept that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There are disabled people whom love hunters and jumpers and want inclusion on this Board and in this Sport, which, by the rudeness and stereotyping going on here is still lacking. CP is one of them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course disabled people should be included. But you are the only disabled person who brings your disability up in every post. I am sure that you are capable of contributing here WITHOUT bring up your disability and attempting to use it against the undisabled. Try it! You may like it.

[Chestnut Manure]

CP what major life activities are you disadvantaged in? Youve still never articulated that most elementary of points.

also - you never responded to an earlier question: when you post here, is it by dictation? If so, what does it mean when you refer to your spelling ability?

BS is BS.

[xegeba]

I personally want to know why Cellos is not on Off Topic. Cellos, why are you not on Off Topic? I want to know if you are a closet cusser. I think Dawn should go there too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[CellosPride]

Trailblazer, I am not so sure it 'does not apply to Margie's situation.' I would not be able to know that for sure, as I am not privy to her medical reports or observing her 24 hours a day, which in judging her or the actual applicability of the ADA to her situation is the faux pas of us all. Hypothetically, a person could have such an injury like that as to be substantially limited in the major life activities of sleeping or reproduction, but we would all have to be bedroom police to know whether that person is qualified under the ADA based on those major life activities. My question was a hypothetical which assumed the facts that, arguendo, she was covered under the ADA. Even if Margie is not covered, someday someone will be and will want that Olympic Team berth, and will inevitably request a Bye or some other reasonable accommodation or modification to the selection process.

I think what is bothering you, is where do the limits or boundaries to an ADA accommodation or modification get drawn, which is a very legitimate concern. I know you say physical prowess is a criterion for selection, but that is exactly the argument the US Supreme Court rejected in PGA Tours, where the golfing association argued the same and that the walking rule measured it. The problem is 'eligibility criteria' may not impermissibly screen out or tend to screen out individuals with disabilities, unless the USEF can prove the criterion is necessary, which means measures an "essential function" of what it actually takes to compete at the top level on an Olympic Team (an 'elite' level). I think that line can be drawn in a way that levels the playing field without lowering the standards, and in my question about Margie, from what I have read, it appears she will be able to compete at that level by the actual Olympics, though not by next week's selection trials. I was just as curious about this issue as what will happen with the mileage rule.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for juries of one, I believe they were banned by the Framers when our Constitution was written, and, as exemplified, for good cause. I don't know where self-appointed gossip police study law, but I have actual legitimate degrees, including a J.D./M.B.A., passed the Nation’s hardest bar exam, and studied the ADA, Social Security Act, and a number of other State and Federal disability laws for more than 14 years. I guess my ‘lack of knowledge’ in the subject of the ADA is why everytime I have had to litigate in that area, the other side has hired 6 or more attorneys to take me on.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never studied law except on my own out of necessity. I have poured over the ADA site and I am quite familiar with it. I guess I'm as much as a lawyer as you are though since you are not. My self-appointed gossip police title is something I paid for when I donated to the Aiden Fund (do a search if you don't know what I'm talking about).

I never said you "had a lack of knowledge". I said "You have no idea what you are talking about or with whom you are dealing with when you make such general statements on a public BB" (you said our problem was one of ignorance).

Go ahead and have your husband try to sue me because I jokingly said I was a jury of one. You seem to make up your rules, I'll make up mine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by
So, with all the people who don't WANT to know the ADA or why it concerns the subject hunter jumper activities on this Board, CP isn't going anywhere anytime soon. There are disabled people whom love hunters and jumpers and want inclusion on this Board and in this Sport, which, by the rudeness and stereotyping going on here is still lacking. CP is one of them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is #$%##^#^. I honestly can't think of one friendly debate you have opened regarding the ADA. I haven't seen anyone "include" you and your ADA talk, except to fight you because you make it contentious every single time you post.

The ADA is not something that people want to discuss on this BB in every single post which is why people are rude to you. You are the equivalant to a close-talker with bad breath at a party.

[lmlacross]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horsepower:
...problem with changing the rule for her is that it opens up a Pandora's Box every time a rider or a horse has an injury that affects their ability to compete. At what point would you then say the next rider does or does not get a Bye? So, sadly, I think they should not bend the rules...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

[Chestnut Manure]

is being full of shit actionable in court undr the ADA ammendemnet title 4.3.5/VII.456

?

[Medievalist]

LMAO!!!!!

[HRobs]

Cellos- I don't know if you read my previous post or not, but I think you should read it again, as I think it would be better if you read about why everyone is getting frustrated or "rude" whenever you bring up the ADA from someone who is, to a degree, on your side.

Here it is again:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Cellos- I am pretty new to these boards, so I'm only starting to get an idea what the people on these boards are like, and I think it's pretty safe to say that, for the most part, these people are decent, respectable people (you included) . But, to you and a few other people, they are starting to come across as "mean" or like they're "attacking" you. I personally think that they, as stated previously, are getting a little tired and frustrated with the ADA constantly being thrust into the discussions, which may or may not have some relation to the topic or discussion. I admire you for any kind of struggles or battles that you have had to endure in the past and or present, but I think that it would be better for everyone (including you) if the ADA were left out of discussions as mush as possible. It would be fine if the ADA were ALREADY involved in a case that is horse related to discuss the ADA, but seeming how the ADA wasn't aren't and will not be involved in the "no lungeing at Devon" matter or this "issue" involving Margie G.-Engle, I don't see how the ADA has anything to do with these topics, and would be best if it were left out.

Again, I have NOTHING against you, or any disability you may have, as I have Rheumatoid Arthritis in my knees and have decided to quit riding because it's just too hard and hurts too much. Now, RA isn't, in my books, a disability, so I really admire someone who can overcome their real disabilities and disadvantages and keep riding and pursue their dreams or ambitions in life, which you clearly have.

I think it would be a really good idea if you found another BB to discuss the ADA related topics, and stayed on this BB as well to discuss horse related topics, as I think that your experiences and intellect would of great value to these boards once you have another more appropriate place to discuss the ADA .

Thank you, and I hope that you read this post and hopefully will take the way it was intended to be taken (in good nature)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to add a little bit to what I wrote in Italics, I think it would also be better for everyone (including you, of course) if the ADA was left out of discussions until someone ELSE brings it up, or brings up a new case that most people on the boards have either heard about or already know of. I'm not saying that what you have to say about the ADA or anything else is irrelevant or anything, but again, I think it would best if you left it alone for a little while, until someone else happens to bring up the ADA and whatnot and THEN you can go buck wild with it, as THEY were the ones that brought it up, not YOU http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Anyways, hopefully this will be my last post on this thread, and I'll just go back to reading it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
oh, and um.. sorry for the long post guys!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[trailblazer]

CP, who is NOT covered by the ADA? Should I be given a bye? My disability is that I'm not a good enough rider to ride in the Olympics. You do realize that you would have to support my efforts to get on the team, riiiight? Is that something you really want to do?

I think this is actually really sad. I have no doubt that you have the entire ADA memorized. But do you understand a single word of it? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[cornbread]

Somewhat off-topic, but: I think "Reasonable Accommodation" would be a great TB name.

[June]

CP...
I'm not sure where to begin...being a collegue of Temple Grandin...let me try...

with no direct answers provided for some simple questions asked...over this thread and the "Saints preserve us" Longing at Devon....perhaps to find ease here at the COTH, simply consider this...

When asked a question by a poster, simply answer it. Not argue it, only answer it.

When beginning a topic, read and reflect on what is posted and try not to process it in how it bounces off you and applies to you. This one began discussing ME and instead of staying on ME it became about YOU and ADA. Ditto the Longing at Devon thread.

I would like to know you better through your thoughts and reflections on other topics aside from ADA and YOU.

And if you respond to this, please don't bring ADA into your conversation. You have provided all I ever need to know about it. I've already read it.

I would enjoy a post from you about horses as long as it doesn't trail back to you and ADA. No offense meant. It might be: a theory about anything; an anecdote about horses that could be shared by anyone; preferred way of grooming or bathing etc... I hope you understand this.

Prayer Continues,
June

And please don't take this as some sort of mandate on how you respond to this board. You will do what you will do and I have no purchase attached, regarding that. Really. This post is not telling you how to do anything. It is just wondering...

[canyonoak]

From another website:

Margie and Perin just went CLEAN in Round # 1.

So I guess all the jingles and energy may have helped.

&lt;G&gt;

[thecowboyway]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by canyonoak:
From another website:

Margie and Perin just went CLEAN in Round # 1.

So I guess all the jingles and energy may have helped.

&lt;G&gt; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
for the love of god give that girl a bye before she cripples herself, what more do they need to prove

[nature]

How about if we say, Margie still has to do the selection trials but because she is disabled, can ride in a golf cart to get to the ring!!!

[Silk]

Is psychosis a disability? If so, then CP definitely wins this onehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Being "extremely talented" in writing and riding is a DISABILITY?? Give me a break. By whose standards are you talented? I am not impresses by your writing. I have seen many who ride as you do (by the pictures anyway).

You are still a pain in my disabled ass.

[CuriousGeorge]

June, what on EARTH does Temple Grandin have to do with this? Are we going to slaughter someone on this thread?

(Temple Grandin is a food animal behaviorist who designs safer, more humane slaughterhouses.)

[lauriep]

If you haven't already, read Molly Sorge's coverage of the trials accessed from the main page of COTH. It is excellent, and Margie DID feel she may have done some damage.

CP, repeat after me: Margie is injured, not disabled, Margie is injuredn not disabled.

You really do the ADA a disservice with your ranting, and the people who are legitimately disabled (like my father) and spend every minute of every day trying to get by with as little help as possible, don't need someone like you pleading their case uninvited. If ever anyone here needs an ADA litigator, we all know where to find you. So give it a rest!

[CellosPride]

Lauriep, give it a rest. Repeat after me, injuries can be within the ADA definition of disability. You can't judge disabled people by one blanket stereotype, and I have already proven my "truly disabled" status, which I feel no need to prove again. I think you are just extremely jealous and harbor a years long grudge because I got hired in your position many years ago because I was the better rider. No one ever told me at that time I was taking someone else's job, or, I would have declined the position, and I am sorry this has caused your resentment to percolate for so many years. It was never intended.

[CellosPride]

June and Silk, is one's ability to communicate and use language a disability? Go watch Dustin Hoffman in Rainman, and ask yourself a rhetorical question -- is Rainman's talent in numbers and mathematics a disability? (Not if you selectively choose to see only what you WANT to see). Perhaps the concept of developmental imbalances will finally hit home. One thing is for sure, I will NEVER stop talking about the ADA and hunter jumper issues that implicate these issues until the world is a better, friendlier place -- and we have a LONG way to go toward that end on this BB.

[trailblazer]

LOLOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif This is hilarious.

CP, why don't you talk about H/J issues here and ADA issues on an ADA board? Makes perfect sense to me. If EVERY single one of my posts were about boats, wouldn't you get just a little frustrated? If you insist on posting about the ADA, at least take it here (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=frm&s=6656094911&f=941601302). It's one-day only, though. So you'd better hurry! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Even if Margie were disabled, she would still not be entitled to a bye under the ADA. The ADA does NOT state that the disabled can get whatever they want. To get on the team, you need to participate in the selection process. If you can't jump a GP course, then you shouldn't be on the team. This is far different from your golfing example. Out of curiosity, do you think the fact that the actual showjumping competition discriminates against the disabled violates the ADA? People without arms or legs are at a serious disadvantage. Should they be given a bye in the actual competition? Wouldn't that level the playing field? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Finally, I am also "truly" disabled. But I don't talk about it. You know why? BECAUSE NO ONE CARES! I do not define myself in terms of my disability. You are perfectly capable of having an identity outside of your ADA world. Wouldn't you rather be known as "CP" instead of "disabled CP"? I know you're really jealous of all of us who don't talk about the ADA in eveyr single post, but it doesn't have to be that way! Try talking about horses and you may find this BB to be much friendlier. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CuriousGeorge]

CP, since when did you work at Sandron?

And since when does being a show groom/head groom/barn manager require riding skills?

(Laurie, if I have mis-stated your duties I most sincerely apologize; I am just SUPER confused on this one!!!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PeanutButterCup]

Well if CP is never going to stop talking, which I have no doubt is true, how about we stop responding to her ADA topics? They'll just slip right down the page like this one should have.

[Silk]

Anyone notice that cello's use of semantics changed from her earlier posts when compared to these last two posts? I think what I was saying is while Rainman's ability with numbers was phenomenal, your ability to write and ride are NOT particularly out of the ordinary. I think you are the only one who thinks you are so ultr-talented.

I repeat what many have already said: I dont need you pushing your disability crap in everyone's face. If *I* feel I am discriminated against (which has never happened) I will deal with it myself. I think most disabled people feel the same way. w3e apprecaite the ADA but really want as little in accomodations as possible.

PS I passed on a handicap plate from the DMV

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
Anyone notice that cello's use of semantics changed from her earlier posts when compared to these last two posts? I think what I was saying is while Rainman's ability with numbers was phenomenal, your ability to write and ride are NOT particularly out of the ordinary. I think you are the only one who thinks you are so ultr-talented. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL! Tell me about it. If she hadn't told us a couple hundred times, I never would have "realized" that her writing skills were above average. But that's due to MY disability, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[wishful thinking]

Since the gloves are off and I'm in a foul mood (severe PMS...is that a disability?)...and since this topic isn't really about anything specific...CP, perhaps you have transference issues with Margie which led you to start this? Maybe because in your "guess who" post a couple flattering but wrong individuals guessed your photo was that of Margie? Maybe you've lost enough grip on reality that you are getting confused? Margie is doing fine...great. I'm sure she would find it pathetic to have you lobbying on her behalf after she accepted the RULES and moved on (quite well I might add).

Finally...you said you have already defined your disabilities. Does that mean you do or do not have down's syndrome? BTW...in this day and age, just about ANYONE can be diagnosed with various degrees of autism.

Yeah, yeah...I shouldn't add to this silly mayhem and just let it go away. Couldn't help myself...sorry.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
June, what on EARTH does Temple Grandin have to do with this? Are we going to slaughter someone on this thread?

(Temple Grandin is a food animal behaviorist who designs safer, more humane slaughterhouses.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is also autistic, which might have been more to June's point, or at least that's how I read it.

[CuriousGeorge]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Temple's a she. Thanks for the clarification, DMK. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[lauriep]

CP, you took nothing from me! I was the barn manager at the Cleary's for several years before you came on the scene, the years that they won every MN year end award they were eligible for under the training of Karen Jensen Mitchell. I was free-lancing by the time you came on the scene, and only occasionally helped the Clearys out. I certainly have no grudge against you!

But I am as sick as everyone else here of the way you abuse what the ADA stands for. You have not posted on a single thread without dragging it into the ground. I repeat, YOU disrespect all of the physically and mentally challenged people who legitimately need the protection of the ADA, yet try to live as normal a life as possible.

Margie has a temporary (at this time) injury. Maybe it will end up being more in the future, but I certainly hope not. But she doesn't need, or qualify for, its protection now.

Curious George, our paths crossed years before I moved out here, in MN, my home state. Although I can, and do, ride, it wasn't a major part of my job at Sandron.

[CellosPride]

Wow, Lauriep, you are really defensive. Are you a lawyer?

[Chestnut Manure]

The truth is revealed!! Once and for all!

CP CAN post intelligibley, she just chooses not to. Amen

CP - get lost. Everyone is sick of your routine.

[CellosPride]

It is no surprise the ADA incenses the bullies, more than waiving a red cape in front of a bull. Horselaw, why would you venture to open and read a thread about horses and the ADA if you simply preferred to avert your eye? It makes no sense, unless you went looking for trouble. Myself, I pick and choose the topics on the BB that interest me, and skip the rest. People who don't like the ADA and disabled hunter jumper riders are free to do the same. Trailblazer, your ignorance of the ADA would be a lawyer's dream. Your reference to 'not caring' demonstrates you just don't get it, deliberate indifference, a "form of discrimination" to coin the words of Justice Ginsberg. ADA and jumping horses are not mutually exclusive categories, much as some would like to segregate away disabled people who ride. Silk, "changing 'use of semantics?'" Impaired semantics are a hallmark of my disability, and the usual problem is others can misinterpret such semantics two different ways. 'Ultr talented' (sic)? I am not very talented as compared to the average person at most things, and with my impairment in the use of language I am very lucky to be average, it is my ability to outwit people in legal battles and things like winning at 3-D tic-tac-toe against IBM's big blue computers I excel at -- a type of performance skill. I don't deal with the discrimination by myself if it rises to an egregious level, and as far as doing without accommodations, that is great if you are able to do so. In my case I am not, which is why I have been determined in the past to be "totally and permanently disabled" by the Social Security Administration, but also the reason SSA paid for the dictation technological assistive equipment I needed to work in the legal field and also the reason the California Bar granted dictation to a typist so I could pass the California Bar Examination. Wishful thinking, since the 'gloves are off,' and they ARE off, I don't mind providing lauriep a recollection of her own statement on this Board that while her Ms. Mitchell was training MN champions, I was winning a National HOTY. I mean, since we are measuring the worth of people around here by what they have won and unpopular ideas, not who they really are. As I said, bullies HATE the ADA.

[Chestnut Manure]

dude! what is your disability?

[Ishi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Wow, Lauriep, you are really defensive <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, how did you read that from lauriep's reply? Surely that is the pot calling the kettle something! All your posts have a very defensive tone and ramble on and on. I have stayed away from this thread, but I just had to jump in here. This is getting very silly. Maybe you haven't realized but you are hurting the cause you so love and you are not winning any friends on COTH.

This whole thing is very wierd!

[Albion]

So you won a HOTY award.

Meander over to the breeding board & see what half of the breeders think of the HOTY awards for HB - not much, is the answer. Doesn't really prove much, there are LOTS of people who have won HOTY or reserve HOTY awards.

If you're so terribly disabled, how in the world were you able to travel around & show enough (and win enough) to get a HOTY?

I understand there are many shades of being disabled, but for the love of god, comparing yourself to Rainman? My cousin is severely autistic & has some weird abilities - for instance, he has a massive record collection & knows when one of thousands is out of place. You can also name him a song & he can name you the date it was produced, who sang it, where it was produced, who the producer was, and what record label published it. However, he is in his late 40s and has never been (nor will he ever be) capable of living on his own. He's either been under the complete care of family or in residential care for his whole life. Has it ever occured to you to consider yourself lucky in some respects?

Photographic memory doesn't mean a damn thing, either - my great-grandmother had photographic memory & certainly wasn't disabled in ANY sense of the word. It's a 'talent' that some people have & some people don't - and it has nothing to do with having a disability. As for 'not being talented', I've met plenty of average people who aren't very talented at anything. Does that mean they're disabled? Or just not particularly brilliant at anything?

Your complete inability to see that the way you present yourself has a lot to do with the way people on this board treat you - independent of ANY disability that you may or may not have - is WHY you're having so many problems. Labelling people 'bullies', tossing out nasty statements left and right, and turning EVERYTHING into something about the ADA will win you no friends, either here or in the real world.

[GatoGordo]

CellosPride, may I point out that people on here do not have the option of ignoring ADA threads as long as you continue to insert this issue into every thread you participate in, whether or not you started the thread? Sure, they can abandon the threads after you butt in, but it is fundamentally rude to insist on changing the subject and interfering with everything you participate in. You have made into trainwrecks threads that were reasonable (or at least not fiercely antagonistic) before you started spouting about the ADA. Maybe if you would let ADA issues be discussed separately from other issues you might not get such a negative response. May I suggest that you sit back from your posts a little before posting them and make it a goal to participate on some threads without dragging the ADA into it every time?

[lauriep]

And you had to go to every damn show in the country to do it! Your mare was a nice mare, but you showed the shoes off of her to get those points. Or has your disability caused you to forget that part of the story? If you contest this information, kindly provide us with how many shows you DID attend that year...

Sorry gang, this isn't my usual style, but she has pushed my buttons with her holier-than-thou, oh you peons attitude.

[Spot]

Now I want to REALLY know something ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

If I threw in Hank and the gnomes and Betty into this thread, would CP find a way to link THEIR problems to the ADA, a specific disability, a general disability or any disability at all???

Does anyone remember what simple straightforward topics we used to talk about BEFORE CP came on the scene?

Will the madness end anytime soon?

"Spot"

[CellosPride]

From the PTs and e-mails I have receieved, I know it is mostly the bullies who think I am 'hurting the cause' for disability rights -- THEIR misperception that when a person speaks out about what others prefer not to see, hear, or think about, or when they step 'out of their place.' It is the same mindset that resulted in the lobotomy of a Kennedy, individuals with mental disabilities being kept in 3x3x7 cages, quadraplegics having law enforcement play russian roulette for the emotional effect. And why does everyone make an assumption I am 'capable of living on my own' witout a supportive environment - because I can do similar things as another "severe autistic" such as "name him a song & he can name you the date it was produced, who sang it, where it was produced, who the producer was, and what record label published it" or win a HOTY when that supportive environment exists? As I said, bullies see only what they want to see and not necessarily the way things actually are.

[Party Rose]

This has turned crazy. Does anyone even remember the topic title?

Are the moderators taking the night off?

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As I said, bullies see only what they want to see and not necessarily the way things actually are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As do people who are incredibly self involved.

p.s. I actually do qualify under the ADA too can I get a bye?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[June]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
June, what on EARTH does Temple Grandin have to do with this? Are we going to slaughter someone on this thread?

(Temple Grandin is a food animal behaviorist who designs safer, more humane slaughterhouses.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Curious George!

Temple is indeed very much involved in food animal welfare and issues of humane slaughter: I have enjoyed working with her on USAHA Animal Welfare Committees. She possesses a PhD and is on staff at the University of Colorado, Fort Collins.

Temple is Autistic. She wrote an autobiography called, "Thinking in Pictures".

Hope this helps!
Prayer Continues,
June

[gillenwaterfarm]

Ok to get this thread back on track...here is a quote from the COTH article, for those who haven't noticed.

"Margie Engle, who jumped such an impressive clean round yesterday with Hidden Creek’s Perin, withdrew today before the class, hoping that her performance yesterday would be enough to convince the selection committee to grant her a spot on the team. No official decision has been made about that yet, though."

Looks like Margie decided to withdraw rather then further injure herself, saying something about feeling torn after her round yesterday. Perin looks in top form though, and proved by his clear round that he is up to the task.

If I were a selector, I'd like to see them do a round next weekend, hop on and take Perin over a course to see how he felt (smiling like a goon the entire way around), then decide about the spot. Haha...I can dream, right!

[WatersEdge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
dude! what is your disability? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly my thoughts, Dawn Mills!

CP: It's people like you that really PISS me off. If you are capable of winning all of the prizes you say, traveling around showing your horse, going to law school etc...In MY OPINION you DO NOT deserve to be labeled as a disabled person & collect money from the government monthly. It's people like you who ruin it for the REAL disabled out there. If I were the case worker who was to decide if you were to get a monthly disability check, my answer would be HELL NO!!! It just gives me a real bad taste thinking I work as hard as I do to pay SS taxes out of my check so people like you can sit on your *** & complain about everything. GET A LIFE!

[Carol Ames]

There are temporary disabilities, and permanent ones,Let's hope that Margies' is a temporary one.,which, makes it difficult, if not impossible to practice her profession; How did this turn into an ADA and disabled bashing thread?i suffered many temporary disabilities in the years from 1982 to 1999, and, probably smiled at some of the e cases , in which, the ADA was invoked;however,now, that, I am permanently severely disabled, I amvery grateful for theADA every every time I find a curbcut, or wheelchair ramp.and, hope that,with thehelp of the ADA I will be rehabbed in away which allows me to use my knowledge of horses, in a vocational setting, so that, I can return to being employed

[Carol Ames]

There are temporary disabilties, and permanent ones,Let's hope that Margies' is a temporary one.,which makes idifficult, if not impossible to practice her profession; How did this turn into an ADA , and, disabled bashing thread?i suff eredf many temporary disabilities in the years from 1982 to 1999, and, probably smiled at someof theecases , in which, the ADA was invoked;however,now, that, I am permanently severely disabled, I amvdry grateful for theADA evey every time I find a curbcut, or wheelchair ramp.and, hope hat,with the help of the ADA I will be rehabbed in away which allows me to use my knowledge of horses, in a vocational setting, so that, I can return to being employed

[Roisin]

The only way that this will end is for people to simply stop responding to CP. Don't engage her...that's her purpose for being here...it's clearly not to talk about horses in any real way.

[Ben and Me]

Do you take your Social Security checks and spend them on horse shows? If so, that seems to be defeating the entire purpose of Social Security...

[MistyBlue]

Just for clarification purposes...a photographic memory does not consist of one who can remember written words, theorums, audio learning, etc. A photographic memory is one that consists of the brain seemingly being able to take a photograph of someone or something, and then to later recall that image in near-perfect clarity. And to also be able to expand on the photograph to the point where even if they were concentrating only on, say, a vehicle, they would later be able in their mind's eye to reproduce almost exactly that vehicle (down to paint scratches) and ALSO most likely be able to recount certain background images they previously hadn't really noticed. Such as someone behind that vehicle and what they were wearing or looked like.
A complete recall memory is termed an eidetic memory...when someone can read, learn or hear something for a short period of time (not memorizing) and recall years later everything in that instant. As in someone reading the page of a book once, not seeing the book again in years and hear someone read the opening line of that page and be able to quote the entire page verbatim from the memory jog of hearing the opening line. It's NOT a learning nor a genius tool, as the person can read the page of a text book on medicines and repeat it long after, but not necessarily have understood or expounded on the written word.
Eideticism runs in my family...it's a weird thing to have. I do have it "semi" as in I can read, hear or otherwise "see" something I find interesting and recall it for years afterwards after only one short exposure to it. But only things I find interesting, nothing else. Which helped me zilch in math in high school, LOL! Not only wasn't it interesting...I was unable to reason through what I did retain. I still stink at math. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif However...I could probably tell you the mating rituals and gestation periods for most of the wild kingdom as I find animals exceedingly interesting. Fat lotta good that ever got me, LMAO!
(oh, and never once did it ever help me memorize a course...since I was almost always off course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

[canyonoak]

The SUBJECT of this thread is Margie Goldstein-Engle--should the selectors give her a bye...?

I admire this rider no end...she is professional, she has true relationship with her horses--when she rides the two-way communication is very visible..and heaven knows, she is one of the gutsiest athletic competitors on the face of the earth.

that said..Im kind of in the camp that she should ride next week and show that Perin can hold form..

What if they had a secret faceless vote and asked all the other riders if they wanted to grant her a bye?

I seriously believe that the other riders know whether they feel that Margie/Perin are a necessary ingredient for the team, or at least a short list..

I know, in the fac e of the legal wrangles over spots on other teams, that the above is sort of Pollyanna-like, but may be worth a try...

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
It is no surprise the ADA incenses the bullies, more than waiving a red cape in front of a bull. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROFLMAO! Truer words were never spoken! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
As I said, bullies see only what they want to see and not necessarily the way things actually are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You know what, I agree completely! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I don't think you realize how well you are describing YOURSELF!

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Party Rose:
This has turned crazy. Does anyone even remember the topic title?

Are the moderators taking the night off? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She prob threatened to sue them if they intervened...

[Ishi]

Hey June, she is at Colorado State University, I was lucky enough to get to have her lecture two of my classes while I was there. They were very good lectures, and people showed up to stand at the door just to hear her speak.

CP, what the hell are you talking about?! Quadraplegics having law enforcement play russian roulette for the emotional effect?! Whatever planet you are on, the weather must be nice!

Sorry, I too am not normally like this, but WTF? I am so lost as to what a quadraplegic, law enforcement, and Margie not getting a bye have to do with on another. Can someone fill me in? Anyone? Please?

[CellosPride]

Mistyblue, I have a nearly 100% photographic memory, not eidetic "recall" of long passages by the beginning few words. I visually see figures, images, shapes, and words as they appear on a page, and then can reproduce them down to the "scratch" or a footnote I visually saw before. That is why I cannot pass standardized tests, without seeing on a large print computer screen visually answers I have seen as words on a page to reproduce them. I am not confusing the two.

Wateredge & Ben and Me, you are distorting and misconstruing facts and events as if they correlate, such as my parents paying to support my HOTY and showing 1973-1977, to receiving Social Security benefits and technological assistive technology post 1992 cervical injury impacting on the other disabilities, so I could work and pay taxes just like you, as if they are the same thing. This is typical of stereotyping and ADA bashing, misunderstanding what a disability really means, and depicting disabilities for which you lack an actual understanding firsthand in a false light.

[Gayle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mtnprlfan: The only way that this will end is for people to simply stop responding to CP. Don't engage her...that's her purpose for being here...it's clearly not to talk about horses in any real way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Trying to engage CP in an intelligent conversation and get your point across to her is like playing chew tug with a puppy. The puppy doesn't care what the point is, whether they are "right", or whether the game is necessary it only cares if someone tugs back and as long as someone does he will continue to play. Unless the human tugging gives up the game continues.

The same thing goes for CP. The point to her posts is to tug at everyone to get a response (think troll) NOT to engage in any sort of constructive debate or discussion.

Other posters have been banned from the boards for infractions by the moderators. Perhaps if we express our frustration and in some cases outright anger to the mods with the needless hijacking of threads to further a personal agenda, they would consider banning CP if she continues to bring the NON horse related ADA issue into EVERY thread she responds to?

Oh and CP: for the record I could be considered "disabled" and not have to work. I have seizures. Instead I am in the neurology field helping those like myself. You are an embarassment to every disabled person who works hard to get through every day without holding up the disabled banner. Most disabled people just want reasonable assistance to function in everyday life. Not a free check so that they can campaign their horse at the public's expense like you do.

Take your personal agenda elsewhere. Those of us with true disabilities don't need someone like you holding us back.

[CellosPride]

Ishi -- Medical Board of California v. Hason, US Sup. Ct., cert. dismsd Apr. 7, 2003, Briefs of US Soliciter General and Sens. Kennedy, Harkin & Dole. That Title II ADA case is where this type of abuse of the disabled has been documented. Autistics do actually know how to read, and it is in extremely poor taste to stereotype them as 'coming from another Planet.'

[CellosPride]

Now Gayle, don't you think comparing a person who is being bullied, bashed, and about whom people are making false comments and distorting facts, whom engages in a right to reply to set the facts straight to a "puppy tug of war" is a bit demeaning, degrading, and stereotypical?

I came to this post, which I started, to engage in an intelligent discussion about the concept of a Bye as a reasonable accommodation to Margie's injury -- or anyone else's in the future. In response, people engaged in ADA and disability bashing. I have tried to return the conversation back to Margie, as well as defend myself against false and misleading depictions of myself and my disabilities. I have not shown my horse for more than 2 1/2 years, and have never 'spent Social Security checks or public expense money on campaigning' as you falsely assume. When I have shown, I spent money I earned "with" the accommodations that enabled me to work. My horse is "disabled," due to a club foot, for which he had surgery to cut his check ligament, but he requires no reasonable accommodations.

I think COTH is being very wise in allowing this discussion go foward, as disabled people do jump horses, and you can't just ban them from the Board because you want to exclude and segregate them elsewhere -- out of sight, out of mind. COTH does not post a non-disability discrimination statement, or monitor this Board to stop it. If COTH banned all discussion of the ADA, then might there not be a ratification of such exclusion and segregation? How do view the ADA as 'holding you back?' The ADA is a broad federal-mandate for inclusion, not exclusion.

Getting back to MArgie, so what do people propose she do now? What if she does not get a Bye and she has withdrawn? How is it all that unreasonable that she get a Bye as a reasonable accommodation?

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Autistics do actually know how to read, and it is in extremely poor taste to stereotype them as 'coming from another Planet.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No one said that autistics come from another planet. It's YOU they were talking about... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[HRobs]

Oh for god's sake Cellos!!!! They aren't BASHING!!! They're telling you to STOP DRAGGING THE ADA AND DISABLED PEOPLE THROUGH THE MUD!!!!
What did you expect after your display in the longing thread?? "Oh! I think I'll "innocently" post a topic, then drag in the ADA and disabilities once again, CAUSE I JUST DIDN'T PIS$ ENOUGH PEOPLE OFF OR FIND A BIG ENOUGH PUDDLE OF MUD THE FIRST TIME AROUND"
GOD!! GET OVER YOURSELF!!!


Anyways...
So how 'bout them Flames? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[SnotBunny]

Thank you Gayle for a great post that says what some of us haven't (BUT LOOKOUT - CP will now threaten to sue you!). You're a saint btw.

I work in the area of employment law & so am fairly well versed when it comes to ADA.

CP didn't start this post as anything positive to invite a good discussion (like she suggested). It was obviously started because of her personal vendetta re: the ADA.

CP? You're laughable at best to any real lawyer. My hubby who DID pass the CA bar is laughing his butt off at your threads http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Feel free to sue us now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


SB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
How is it all that unreasonable that she get a Bye as a reasonable accommodation? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because is it UNREASONABLE for someone who cannot jump an Grand Prix course to be given a bye. The selection committee may give byes at THEIR discretion, not YOUR discretion. Get over yourself. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You are essentially saying that every person who wants to be on the short list should be on it. And then you are surprised that your opinion is unpopular. If Margie is "owed" a bye, then every single person competing at the trials is owed a bye. A bye is not a right. No one is entitled to one.

The only bullying, bashing, and stereotyping is coming from your side of the camp. Disabled people like me do not want or need your "help". Quite frankly, you make us look bad. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
I think COTH is being very wise in allowing this discussion go foward, as disabled people do jump horses, and you can't just ban them from the Board because you want to exclude and segregate them elsewhere -- out of sight, out of mind. COTH does not post a non-disability discrimination statement, or monitor this Board to stop it. If COTH banned all discussion of the ADA, then might there not be a ratification of such exclusion and segregation? How do view the ADA as 'holding you back?' The ADA is a broad federal-mandate for inclusion, not exclusion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think COTH is only letting this discussion continue because you threatened to sue them if they stopped it. COTH, if you are reading this, please realize that CP does not have a legal leg to stand on! Oops, bad disabled pun... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (See, we can have a sense of humor!)

Banning discussion of the ADA does not discriminate against the disabled any more than banning discussion of affirmative action discriminates against blacks. Earth to CP: THIS IS A HORSE-RELATED BB! Or did you miss that on your way down from Mars?

[SnotBunny]

Erin - is there ANY way to ban her? I'm tired of this! (I'm an alter in case you didn't know! LOL)

[Party Rose]

It was refreshing to see a post or two from the past few hours that related to the topic subject matter.

I am now convinced that ALL of the moderators have come to San Diego for the night for the third round of the trials.

What else could it be?

[horse_poor]

ok

2 things

1------riley can i borrow your fork please? i tried to poke my eyes out with the popsicicle stick from the sorbet bar i just ate but it aint working

2-whether margie gets a bye or not should be determined by the lunging gnome at devon


'nuff said

[HRobs]

horse_poor- good idea bout the gnomes!
riley- could I borrow that fork once horse_poor's sufficiently gouged her eyes out???

[Weatherford]

ANd WHAT has this to do with Margie??

Closing!