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BelladonnaLily
Nov. 9, 2010, 06:54 AM
For some reason, my computer won't open up the prize list or schedule for VHSA and I'm trying to guesstimate what time Short Stirrup 9 and unders will go on Saturday. I threw my hard copies away once we decided not to go. Can anyone clue me on on the morning schedule for the East Arena on Saturday?

Thanks!

Mayaty02
Nov. 9, 2010, 07:51 AM
This is Saturday's schedule.
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 13 - 8:00 a.m.
East Complex
65. Unjudged 2’ Small/Medium and Green Pony Warm-up
13. Small/Medium Pony Hunter O/F
14. Small/Medium Pony Hunter O/F
21A. Small/Medium Green Pony Hunter O/F
22A. Small/Medium Green Pony Hunter O/F
21B. Large Green Pony Hunter O/F
22B. Large Green Pony Hunter O/F
39. Short Stirrup (9 and under) WTC Equitation
40. Short Stirrup (9 and under) Hunter O/F
41. Short Stirrup (9 and under) Hunter O/F
42. Short Stirrup (9 and under) Hunter Under Saddle
PRESENTATION OF SHORT STIRRUP (9 and under)CHAMPIONSHIP AND RESERVE.
PRESENTATION OF THE LAURA LEE SHREVE NEWMAN TROPHY

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 9, 2010, 09:09 AM
Thank you!

Mayaty02
Nov. 9, 2010, 08:59 PM
ok so follow up question...we're going to go watch a couple of barnmates showing in the medium greens and the SS (9/under)...so if we wanted to be sure to catch the medium green, any ideas of what time we'd need to be there?

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 10, 2010, 07:35 AM
I wouldn't count on sm/med's taking too long...there is no way of knowing now how many will be there but there are never as many as the larges, so I'd probably be there by 10 at the very latest. I'm going to try to get there by 12 to watch our short stirrup kid go.

Mayaty02
Nov. 10, 2010, 07:47 AM
thanks, looks like we'll be getting up at the crack of dawn :)

horseladi78
Nov. 10, 2010, 09:14 AM
There are 56 in the warm up, then 36 small med, 14 small med greens, and 17 large greens. I say short stirrup won't begin any earlier then 3 pm.

TooManyChickens
Nov. 10, 2010, 09:15 AM
Just a FYI, the entry #'s are up on horseshowsonline.com

So far the winner is the 2' specials, currently with 83 entries. A close second is pleasure pony at 82. But here's a rough breakdown:


Pleasure Horse Senior: 56
Pleasure Horse Children's: 77
Pleasure Pony: 82
Small/Medium Ponies: 35
Larges: 36
2' Specials: 83
2 6" Specials 62
Children's Hunters: 68
Adult Am: 42
Greens (horse): 50
Open hunters: 60
Short Stirrup (9/under): 26
Short Stirrup (10-12): 36
Short Stirrup hunter: 36
Equitation on ponies (s/m): 30
Equitation on ponies (L): 35
Jr Eq: 61
Adult Eq: 27
Large green pony: 14
S/M green pony: 17
$1000 green/open hunter classics: 37

At least the weather looks like it's going to be fairly pleasant!

Mayaty02
Nov. 10, 2010, 10:15 AM
wow thanks for posting :) good to see my pony (well the one we part lease) has a nice small s/m green pony group...and that the ss under 9 isn't too bad because DD will be there next year :cool:

But holy cow on the pleasure ponies, Yikes

HunterRider992
Nov. 10, 2010, 10:11 PM
Once again, infinitely glad I no longer attend this show.

Mayaty02
Nov. 11, 2010, 07:19 AM
Once again, infinitely glad I no longer attend this show.

I've never been, is this because of the long days, lots of competitors?

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 11, 2010, 09:05 AM
There are 56 in the warm up, then 36 small med, 14 small med greens, and 17 large greens. I say short stirrup won't begin any earlier then 3 pm.

Oooh, good to know! I can get more done at home now! :)

Rockfish
Nov. 11, 2010, 10:06 AM
I've never been, is this because of the long days, lots of competitors?

it's too big for its own good. That said, I'm headed down for adult eq. only. It's the only division I was top 20 in, not that it matters, because any Tom, Dick, and Harry can show because they have such loose qualification proceedures.

supersly
Nov. 11, 2010, 10:38 AM
I've never been, is this because of the long days, lots of competitors?

LOTS OF COMPETITORS! last year pony pleasure had i believe almost what? 95 ponies? Finals is over rated. Go to an A show and spend that kind of money.

horseladi78
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:21 PM
And thats exactly why I did not take my horse this year. Instead, I'm planning on going to an A show and spend my $800 there. Finals has way way to many entries and long days.

HunterRider992
Nov. 11, 2010, 04:25 PM
it's too big for its own good. That said, I'm headed down for adult eq. only. It's the only division I was top 20 in, not that it matters, because any Tom, Dick, and Harry can show because they have such loose qualification proceedures.

That's exactly the problem. The qualifications are very loose. It is not only a problem of numbers, it's a problem of quality of competitors, to be honest. There are some very nice horses and some very nice riders, and then there are riders and horses who have no business showing at the level they are. Lots of scary moments. I'd rather take my money to Raleigh where the quality of competition is much more consistent and the show ends at reasonable times.

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 11, 2010, 06:16 PM
That is what we saw the one year that we went. We had planned on going this year but just couldn't get too excited about spending that much money on it. 80+ ponies in pleasure at a championship show is ridiculous, IMHO. The top ponies most likely do not compete against each other at all.

So, we will most likely only go when we have a top pony. We had a couple get close, but one had some training issues so we decided to stay home and work on it instead of spending the money.

And honestly, I wonder what makes 80+ pony owners decide that showing at 7:30am in November is fun, when 60+ know they won't place. I really thought the numbers would go down..

Mayaty02
Nov. 11, 2010, 06:19 PM
That is what we saw the one year that we went. We had planned on going this year but just couldn't get too excited about spending that much money on it. 80+ ponies in pleasure at a championship show is ridiculous, IMHO. The top ponies most likely do not compete against each other at all.

So, we will most likely only go when we have a top pony. We had a couple get close, but one had some training issues so we decided to stay home and work on it instead of spending the money.

And honestly, I wonder what makes 80+ pony owners decide that showing at 7:30am in November is fun, when 60+ know they won't place. I really thought the numbers would go down..

LOL I know of a pony who is the absolute worst mover on the planet (think cart driving horse) and he is showing in the pony pleasure with absolutely no chance of a ribbon and a very young rider who has never shown with 30 other horses in the ring. My first thought was that they must have alot of money to throw away. My daughter might go next year in the short stirrup, mostly for the experience, but I will not show in the pony pleasure unless I had a reallly nice pony or a pony we need to get in the ring alot.

chunky munky
Nov. 11, 2010, 06:27 PM
I am astounded by the pleasure numbers. What is the incentive that makes you/them want to go? I am not being mean or negative, just honestly curious.

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 12, 2010, 07:28 AM
I am astounded by the pleasure numbers. What is the incentive that makes you/them want to go? I am not being mean or negative, just honestly curious.

I have no idea. When we were going for pony hunter, we tossed around the idea of throwing in pleasure as our large pinned well last time he went but decided we didn't want to be at the barn at 4am Friday morning :lol:

Now, we know the top 2 pleasure ponies personally, so we totally get why they are doing it (good luck Blue and Roxy!)...both are really nice ponies...but if you're in the bottom of the list I can't imagine what would make you spend the time and money. Lots of other cheaper ways to get miles.

Mayaty02
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:36 AM
the whole pleasure thing in the VHSA is soooo foreign to me. I am new to the state and when i used to show it was in Connecticut. We only had one pleasure division (horses, ponies, adults, juniors whoever) and it was where the horses who were generally too green to jump, or too old to jump, showed just to get mileage. Pleasure divisions here in the VHSA are big business! We were at a little local show and I put my daughter in the pony pleasure just to give her some additional classes (she's a walktrot kid right now) and i was astounded when all these fancy ponies came out of the woodwork to show in it. 14 ponies (!) at a small local show. Ponies that could easily win a rated division hack. I'm sure it was the biggest division they had that day. It turned out to be a great experience for my daughter because it was her first time in a class that big and she did end up getting a 5th out of 14 with her pony, who is NOT fancy by any means, so she was very proud of that 5th and how well she did managing to stay out of trouble in that big class.

So anyway, this whole pleasure thing is just soooo odd. I wonder if its this big anywhere else outside of VA?

I know at least 5 ponies showing in the finals pony pleasure and I'm excited to see how they do but nope, not for me ;)

Rockfish
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:06 AM
^ some people just view it as easy ribbons/points

supersly
Nov. 12, 2010, 08:53 PM
I dont understand what the big deal is about the finals, you have your good riders and then others you pray can make it over 8 jumps without getting hurt. I think i counted in Large ponies one girl refused 5 times and finally left the ring, and in pony pleasur oh goodness, it was a ripple effect, one kids pony freaked out then one got ran away with and more kept coming off. why do it if your not ready...

TheOneandOnly
Nov. 13, 2010, 05:35 PM
^ some people just view it as easy ribbons/points

the people who are actually showing in pleasure for points probably aren't doing so because its "easy". I am well aware that some people put horses in pleasure because that's their only option, WTC, reverse, repeat, but competitive pleasure takes quite the finesse especially in larger classes. Not all horses can tolerate 30+ horses in one ring, go on a loose reign, stand out in a crowd, AND stay happy and relaxed. I am right? I sat through 6 sections of pleasures yesterday; ponies, adults, and juniors. There were TONS of really nice, qualified horses, and there were those who clearly were not. which brings me to my next point.

I do agree that finals has become ridiculous in size. But it is at the "associate" level. There are the people who have successfully shown in local shows all year and truly see finals as the big year end hoorah. I also think there are plenty of people there who aren't going to be competitive but just want to go because they want to play like the big kids and go to a "big" show. Hopefully the qualifying rules will get stricter here soon but for right now all we can do is tolerate the few extra back yard horses or stay home.

CBoylen
Nov. 13, 2010, 05:56 PM
the whole pleasure thing in the VHSA is soooo foreign to me.
Me too. I went to a few local shows this summer to help my friend with her green horse. Those pleasure classes took forever, there were like four different sections, and nothing in there looked like any kind of pleasure at all. Bizarre.

Secretariat2
Nov. 14, 2010, 01:07 PM
Can someone point me to the photographers page? One of my babies was Reserve Champ and I want to see his pics.

horseladi78
Nov. 15, 2010, 08:57 AM
I wish they would hurry up and make the qualifications stricter. I went and watched and on Sat night at 10pm there were still only half way through the childrens eq. :eek: I think its ridiculous! The horses were stopping, kids falling off. Its just to late to be ridinh or showing for that matter. Then on Sat, they made an announcement that all riders and trainers could come and get free pizza. Well they only ordered FOUR large pizzas! UHM no one got pizza. :no: And this is after they already raised their fees this year. Uhm special. Also they never ever ran the heat lamps in the collisuem. Anyone know how cold it is at 5 am in the indoor with out heat? Yup you guessed it...26 degrees. And thats with freshly clipped horses. Makes for alot of fun. And to think they added an extra day this year to alleviate the late nights. Ya that really worked. They only ran 2 divisions Sat in the indoor and still at 10 pm they werent finished. What a joke this year was. :(

Mayaty02
Nov. 15, 2010, 09:02 AM
well it certainly sounds like a nightmare :) we didn't get to go watch but know several people that did very well, I can't imagine what it must be like at the lower rungs!

N2Equus
Nov. 15, 2010, 10:31 AM
All VHSA cares about from the VHSA Associate Show is the money. They don't limit the number of horses OR check to see who really qualified to show at the Championship show. I have seen people enter classes on the fly at the Championship show. The horse is there so lets put a different rider on it and add it to this class. The show committee never questions it. And how can they prove it anyway?

Yes, there are backyard horses there but isn't that what the Associate program is for? People who are not really on the regular VHSA level. If you move up to the regular program and show so many shows or earn so many points that horse should point out of showing of the Associate Finals show. I get tired of seeing people do a couple of Associate shows in the beginning of the year, spend the rest of the year showing in the "A's" then coming back just to show at the Championship show. I guess getting invited by points would weed them out as well as the "backyard" person that just wants to go to a big show as the previous posted suggested.

Where does all the money from the Associate program go? Dues and fees for shows continue to go up. The Associate program needs an overhaul. :confused:

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 15, 2010, 11:25 AM
I only went to watch for a few hours Saturday afternoon but I was completely shocked when the judge asked 27 short stirrup 9 and under riders to canter together in the East Arena. Now, I'll say that I was really impressed with the quality of riding with these little kids and how well mounted most of them were, because it all worked out fine but really, can't we have a judge use a little common sense and split them to canter? We're not even talking older short stirrup riders. They took out the lines but there were still 9 sets of standards in the ring to negotiate as well...

We wanted to stay and watch Children's Eq but we just couldn't hang out that long. Crazy class sizes...

horseladi78
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:06 PM
Bella I, too, watched the short stirrup 9 and under and could not believe they did not split the canter up. All of the people next to me on the rail all were holding their breathe. How stupid! And so true, they only movedthe outside lines and left all the diangonals and singles up and at 2'6 at that. Lord all they needed was one out of contral wipper snapper and pony and disaster would have ensued. I just feel like VHSA is becoming quite a joke. They added the extra day, Thurs, to help alleviate the huge numbers in classes. But what I don't understand is they still had over 30 in every class and some had over 70. Thats just greed! I really hope trainer, and parents complained to the office. i do know one trainer fussed in the office about the pizzas and wanting to order more and charge them to the horse center. HAHA. Many many people were pissed off. And I think they have a right. Many kids got there at 6 am and did not show until after 8 at night. And VHSA couldn't even supply food for the juniors? Ridiculous. The hospitality office didn't even have hot water or even coffee and I overheard a trainer tell the office that she went in there looking for coffee and was told by an official for the show to leave that room as it was not open to anyone. She was one hot mess about that. VHSA is in deed cheap. Also this year is the first year I ahve seen the lack in flowers and brush. They always put up alot of brush at the end of the collisuem, but nothing this year. The jumps weren't even decorated as abudentlay as years past. So really where did your money go????? And dreamhuntr, I agree 20000 % about if you attend and show in regular shows in the same year, you should be opted out of finals. Its gets just plain ol sick watching the same damn horses come every year to win and they attend the A's as well. Really I guess thats something to be proud of, that you can ribbon in the A's and come to Finals and win? I sure hope riders stand up and be a voice. Enough is enough.

Mayaty02
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:09 PM
I only went to watch for a few hours Saturday afternoon but I was completely shocked when the judge asked 27 short stirrup 9 and under riders to canter together in the East Arena. Now, I'll say that I was really impressed with the quality of riding with these little kids and how well mounted most of them were, because it all worked out fine but really, can't we have a judge use a little common sense and split them to canter? We're not even talking older short stirrup riders. They took out the lines but there were still 9 sets of standards in the ring to negotiate as well...

We wanted to stay and watch Children's Eq but we just couldn't hang out that long. Crazy class sizes...

oooh that is scary!! My daughter will be doing that next year so GOOD to know :)

Trixie
Nov. 15, 2010, 12:35 PM
Yes, there are backyard horses there but isn't that what the Associate program is for? People who are not really on the regular VHSA level. If you move up to the regular program and show so many shows or earn so many points you should point out of showing in the Associate program.

I really have to disagree with you.

I think that would really discourage riders of quality from coming to our horse shows, and one of the things I like the most is that at our little, backyard shows I’ve gotten to compete against Katie Prudent, Nina Fout, and any number of VERY well known riders – not, mind you, in a low division. This gives those of us who can’t pay to play at the big shows a chance to compete against some quality horses and riders.

I feel that closing the doors to these riders would lower the quality of our horse shows and discourage farms that regularly compete at “A” shows from bothering to show up.

Also - I cannot, for the life of me, imagine complaining that someone who qualified for a horse show had the audacity to show up at that horse show and legitimately beat other people. Really?

Rockfish
Nov. 15, 2010, 03:02 PM
Got back late last night from the show, having gone since 1999. To sum it up, it was lazily run.

N2Equus
Nov. 15, 2010, 03:46 PM
Also - I cannot, for the life of me, imagine complaining that someone who qualified for a horse show had the audacity to show up at that horse show and legitimately beat other people. Really?

My previous post mentioned that if they have the points in the Associate program they would qualify for the Championship show. Just like the backyard or smaller barns would. A lot of these people are showing in one or two Associate shows and showing in "A" shows the rest of the year then coming back to the Championship show. They are not in the top 20 point earners and VHSA lets them show. Same as smaller barns/backyard are not in the top 20 but still show at the Championship show. It would limit the entries on both ends and maybe they could extend it to the top 30 point earners.

I think at some point of showing at a higher level one should point out of the associate level. If they do not earn the points on the regular program they would still be eligible to compete on the Associate level if they are in the top 20-30.

I don't think these top riders are showing for points or care about points at the Associate level but more for schooling and I don't think it will discourage them. They can still show at VHSA-A schooling shows just not the Championship show unless they qualify and don't "point out."

I mean is it fair for Kim Severson to compete in BN on a *** horse for example? Maybe you think so but then why do we need an Associate program? Just my opinion.

Trixie
Nov. 15, 2010, 05:00 PM
I mean is it fair for Kim Severson to compete in BN on a *** horse for example? Maybe you think so but then why do we need an Associate program? Just my opinion.

That's hardly a logical argument, given that that isn't what is taking place here. And if so, many folks have stepped down in the past for perfectly legitimate reasons.

I don't mind the idea of point qualifying for the Associate finals, but I WHOLLY disagree with the idea of keeping people out of the Associate sandbox entirely if they're competing at upper levels. How the heck is anyone supposed to bring along a young horse? By spending thousands to compete it in the 2'6" at an "A" show? For many of us, that's just not a worthwhile use of funds, particularly if, say, someone had one AA horse and one greenie and a limited budget.

Secondly, you will limit the quality of competition. For those of us who can't afford to regularly do the "regular" competitions, being able to compete against quality horses and riders in a local setting is wonderful. It's rare, for local shows in many parts of the country, to regularly have the opportunity to compete against very good horses and riders (as in my post above) at this price point. I feel fortunate to be able to have that opportunity.

MoonLadyIsis
Nov. 15, 2010, 06:05 PM
I think everyone should be open to enter, but the classes need to be split better and the schedule more organized. Putting pleasure and the specials on the same day was not smart. I feel like the specials should have been split between AA's, children and professionals so that 7 year olds were not competing against professionals. The flat classes needed to be split better (as did most of the flat classes) 40 horses in the Waldron was like a scary version of bumper cars on horse back. My horse was so nervous in his under saddle I was getting run away with and doing my best not to kick anyone. He DID have a red ribbon in his tail, but with so many people there was no way to totally avoid a kicker.

My trainer has a current saying about pleasure. "it's for green horses, green riders and old ladies." (she puts herself in the latter category) I agree with this statement, pleasure is supposed to be for fun, for people who want a division but don't want to jump, for green horses, nervous riders etc. 40+ horses in there does not help that situation. When people are getting kicked, run away with and falling off in pleasure something is wrong. Yes some of the people in those classes did not belong riding at a show, but unfortunately, that is the nature of the game. They were there, it was up to show management to make a SAFE environment for all. It was supposed to fun, a place for those who can't afford the circuit to do a "big" show. Does it need to be tweaked, yes. But that is the responsibility of US as competitors to make suggestions to VHSA on how the show could be run better. While the late nights were tiring, it was nothing compared to WIHS or the other indoor shows. If you don't like it, make suggestions on improvement and if its not to your liking don't go. I had my complaints, but at the end of the day, I had fun (and I was awake from 5am to 12am every day) I liked spending that much time with my horse, because at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

BybeeGirl
Nov. 15, 2010, 07:20 PM
All VHSA cares about from the VHSA Associate Show is the money.

If you move up to the regular program and show so many shows or earn so many points you should point out of showing in the Associate program.

Where does all the money from the Associate program go? Dues and fees for shows continue to go up. The Associate program needs an overhaul. :confused:

Agree, disagree, and very good question...

I can't imagine that the finals show is cheap to put on. And I can only imagine that the very big special and pleasure divisions probably pay a good chunk of the bill. In other words, even though the program says the top 20 are allowed to show and the rest will be limited, I don't see it happening any time soon.

I disagree about the associate vs. reg. program show participants. We are blessed to live in an area where we can show against the rated regulars if we choose. It's a great guage to determine when moving up is appropriate.

Very good question. With at least 491 reported associate shows for the year at $40 a pop= almost $20K. Add in the memberships fee increase to $40/person, and the program has to be paying for itself.

BybeeGirl
Nov. 15, 2010, 07:22 PM
The flat classes needed to be split better (as did most of the flat classes) 40 horses in the Waldron was like a scary version of bumper cars on horse back.

So the split rule is 40. Even though the ring was very, very full at 37. Especially when some decided that going the same direction as everyone else in the class was optional. ;)

HunterRider992
Nov. 15, 2010, 10:57 PM
The problem with limiting entries by points is point chasers. You people trailering to several shows a weekend so they can qualify, and that just isn't fair to the horses.

The other major problem at Associate Finals is that some of the divisions run at a lower height at some local series than at Finals. For example, I've seen the Children's Hunters run at 2'6, 2'9, and 3ft. At Finals it is 3ft, so you get kids who have shown all year at 2'6 showing at 3ft in the Coliseum. Ridiculous.

Everythingbutwings
Nov. 16, 2010, 06:54 AM
From the VHSA site re: the Championship Show:


Participants in the Associates’ Program must be a Regular Member of the VHSA, and their horses must be recorded in the VHSADreamHtr:
A lot of these people are showing in one or two Associate shows and showing in "A" shows the rest of the year then coming back to the Championship show. They are not in the top 20 point earners and VHSA lets them show. Same as smaller barns/backyard are not in the top 20 but still show at the Championship show. It would limit the entries on both ends and maybe they could extend it to the top 30 point earners.

It sounds like you would prefer to have the upper level people kept from swooping in and beating those who only show Associate, along with having those who rarely show at all removed and kept from cluttering up the ring. :(

I don't know what area you are in but Trixie and I have found that here in NoVa, it is quite common to go to a show such as Summerplace and find ourselves competing with excellent horsemen on their greenies or old campaigners because they prefer that venue over Culpeper, it's a nice show and a heck of a lot cheaper. They pay their entries and their VHSA dues, who is to say they shouldn't get to compete at the championship show?

Now lately, concentrating on jumpers, your argument doesn't wash as, at the VHSA associate jumper shows, we've noticed very few of those entered are VHSA members/registered and thus can't compete at the championship show. They are bringing along their youngsters at a suitable competition, probably one that is convenient for them rather than hauling them to A shows along with their upper level horses.

As it stands, the rule says you have to be a VHSA Regular member and your horse has to be VHSA registered. That's all.

MoonLadyIsis:

It was supposed to fun, a place for those who can't afford the circuit to do a "big" show. Does it need to be tweaked, yes. But that is the responsibility of US as competitors to make suggestions to VHSA on how the show could be run better. While the late nights were tiring, it was nothing compared to WIHS or the other indoor shows. If you don't like it, make suggestions on improvement and if its not to your liking don't go.Yes.

N2Equus
Nov. 16, 2010, 10:00 AM
From the VHSA site re: the Championship Show:

DreamHtr:

It sounds like you would prefer to have the upper level people kept from swooping in and beating those who only show Associate, along with having those who rarely show at all removed and kept from cluttering up the ring. :(

I don't know what area you are in but Trixie and I have found that here in NoVa, it is quite common to go to a show such as Summerplace and find ourselves competing with excellent horsemen on their greenies or old campaigners because they prefer that venue over Culpeper, it's a nice show and a heck of a lot cheaper. They pay their entries and their VHSA dues, who is to say they shouldn't get to compete at the championship show?

Now lately, concentrating on jumpers, your argument doesn't wash as, at the VHSA associate jumper shows, we've noticed very few of those entered are VHSA members/registered and thus can't compete at the championship show. They are bringing along their youngsters at a suitable competition, probably one that is convenient for them rather than hauling them to A shows along with their upper level horses.

As it stands, the rule says you have to be a VHSA Regular member and your horse has to be VHSA registered. That's all.

MoonLadyIsis:
Yes.


NOT saying that at all. Let me try to clarify. I love having professionals show at our schooling shows. It is a great example for everyone showing in that level.

I think anyone and everyone should be able to show at any VHSA Associate show but not the Championship show. When it comes to the Championship show they should put limits on who is qualified (by points) to show. (They do now but they don't enforce them) If a horse (only THAT HORSE not the rider) points out in the regular program and doesn't have the points (top 20-30) in the Associate program he does not qualify to show at FINALS. If that trainer has a horse and has the points to qualify for the Championship show then they get to show at finals. People are complaining about over crowding at the Championship show. There has to be some regulations somewhere. If they have the points in the Associate program then they are qualified to show at the Championship show. I'm not trying to keep professionals out by any means nor trying to keep backyard barns out either as that could also be an argument. I'm not talking about keeping anyone out of the program just enforcing the rules for the Championship show due to overcrowding.

I would love to hear from others how they think the program could be redesigned to help the problem. Adding divisions, etc adds to cost which in turn raises dues and fees.

We are extremely fortunate to have this program in VA. It is an "Associate" program and should be used for that purpose. If you have a horse that is not ready or talented enough to show in the regular program but venture out there several times a year for fun this will not be a problem for those.

I agree about point chasers but that happens at the top as well. With the Associate program they count the top 10 shows. They do the best they can to regulate point chasing.

Everythingbutwings
Nov. 16, 2010, 11:11 AM
NOT saying that at all. Let me try to clarify.

That makes more sense, thanks.

MoonLadyIsis
Nov. 16, 2010, 11:13 AM
To deal with point chasers- only 1 show per weekend counts towards points

And as for the overwhelming class sizes.... They could have added another day for the amount of money they made on the 2ft and 2'6 sections.

how to fix...

Professionals have their 2ft and 2'6 classes on thursday

AA/kids have their 2ft and 2'6 classes on friday

move the eq, adults, childrens and large ponies, to friday after the pleasure. in order to make decent suggestions, I'd really have to know the reasoning for having the schedule the way it is now.

BybeeGirl
Nov. 16, 2010, 12:05 PM
I think anyone and everyone should be able to show at any VHSA Associate show but not the Championship show.

I think the real root of the problem is that as it runs right now, finals does not function as a real championship show. Sure, doubled points are awarded, but the top horses in each division often do not get to show against each other.

With 3 pony pleasure splits, and at least 2 in every other division it's kind of hard to say who's the best of the best.

So this is my only real gripe about the show. You work all year, move to the top of the division, and never get a chance to actually (directly) compete against the horses ranked right up there with you in the same division. How is that a championship?

horseladi78
Nov. 16, 2010, 12:22 PM
Maybe they should make it an invite only show just like Zone 3 finals. Change the name, call it Finals instead of a championship show. Leave it at 4 days as it was this year and invite only the top 30 horses for each division. If people decline the invite, then have a stand by list and go from there. As for the point chasers, they should make a rule that points will only count for one show, or that you can not accrue more than 25 pts ( clean sweep) per division in any show. So when the point chasers go to 3 shows in one day, they are capped out at 25 pts and that VHSA will not honor anymore than 25 pts per rider/ horse. Really though, every year the same issues get addressed and every year its still the same. At what point will trainers and riders stand up and make their voice heard?

TheOrangeOne
Nov. 16, 2010, 12:46 PM
I think that the big numbers aren't as much a problem as the attention to detail. Saturday they had roughly 400 trips in the coliseum, which took about 15 hours to get done. Neither part of that statement is a good idea. It's not like no one guessed this many people would show up, I don't think there has been a year where this many haven't showed.

Rockfish
Nov. 16, 2010, 03:08 PM
The problem with limiting entries by points is point chasers. You people trailering to several shows a weekend so they can qualify, and that just isn't fair to the horses.

The other major problem at Associate Finals is that some of the divisions run at a lower height at some local series than at Finals. For example, I've seen the Children's Hunters run at 2'6, 2'9, and 3ft. At Finals it is 3ft, so you get kids who have shown all year at 2'6 showing at 3ft in the Coliseum. Ridiculous.

there used to be rules on the books for VHSA (maybe they still are? haven't looked in a while) that only one show per weekend would count for association points.

Rockfish
Nov. 16, 2010, 03:10 PM
From the VHSA site re: the Championship Show:

DreamHtr:

It sounds like you would prefer to have the upper level people kept from swooping in and beating those who only show Associate, along with having those who rarely show at all removed and kept from cluttering up the ring. :(

I don't know what area you are in but Trixie and I have found that here in NoVa, it is quite common to go to a show such as Summerplace and find ourselves competing with excellent horsemen on their greenies or old campaigners because they prefer that venue over Culpeper, it's a nice show and a heck of a lot cheaper. They pay their entries and their VHSA dues, who is to say they shouldn't get to compete at the championship show?

Now lately, concentrating on jumpers, your argument doesn't wash as, at the VHSA associate jumper shows, we've noticed very few of those entered are VHSA members/registered and thus can't compete at the championship show. They are bringing along their youngsters at a suitable competition, probably one that is convenient for them rather than hauling them to A shows along with their upper level horses.

As it stands, the rule says you have to be a VHSA Regular member and your horse has to be VHSA registered. That's all.

MoonLadyIsis:
Yes.

actually the owner has to be a member but the rider doesn't. it's a new change I had to ask Angie about this year, because my horse (registered) was doing jr. pleasure with non-member kids, yet we were accruing points.

2bayboys
Nov. 16, 2010, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=Mayaty02;5218895]the whole pleasure thing in the VHSA is soooo foreign to me. I am new to the state and when i used to show it was in Connecticut. We only had one pleasure division (horses, ponies, adults, juniors whoever) and it was where the horses who were generally too green to jump, or too old to jump, showed just to get mileage. Pleasure divisions here in the VHSA are big business! QUOTE]

From a personal perspective, if you have a real greenie-beanie that you don't want to subject to the schooling break [:eek:], the pleasure division is an excellent way to tour around the ring under regulated conditions, discreetly allow green baby to look at the jumps, and hopefully get a relaxed loose-rein experience in company with other horses. Then you can do a California warm-up and jump around a course, and if you've made the most of that opportunity then you're ready to walk right back in and jump the greenie around a few courses. While I don't really "get" those who consider the pleasure division as a be-all, end-all and worthy of point chasing, it is a good solid money-maker for local shows and a good place for greenies (horses and riders) to learn some ring etiquette.

Brydelle Farm
Nov. 19, 2010, 01:41 PM
i agree with horseladi that it should be limited to top 30 of each division, i doubt this will happen.


but the top horses in each division often do not get to show against each other.

....

You work all year, move to the top of the division, and never get a chance to actually (directly) compete against the horses ranked right up there with you in the same division. How is that a championship?

so if stays as it is, which is as long as you show at 5 assoc. shows, you can come to "finals" then, at least split the sections, 1-30, 31-60, etc, so the top show against one another. And points are weighted based on the section, like 2x, 1x, 0.5x, 0.25x, etc.

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 19, 2010, 02:29 PM
For those of you who would like the show to limit entries - be careful what you wish for.

While limiting entries would most certainly shorten the days, the lost revenue would create an inevitable increase in stall fees and entry for those who qualify. (The stalls, entry and related fees are through the roof at Cap Challange, Harrisburg, etc. with their limited entry policies - when compared to a "normal" rated outdoor show.)

The Horse Center has fixed rates for the use of the facility, regardless of how many or how few horses a show attracts. (The stalls are rented on an "as needed" basic.) It also envokes strict vendor policies - for example I'm fairly certain the food service has a no compete clause in their contract.

If there are so many entries at this show - although it did run well into the night - it must reflect a healthy horse industry in Virginia. Not something I'm going to complain about.

Offset
Nov. 19, 2010, 02:33 PM
Ruby G. is, of course, correct. I've never gotten a straight answer, though, why the stalls, etc. are priced considerably less at other shows held there (ie. non hunter/jumper) .

BybeeGirl
Nov. 19, 2010, 11:27 PM
i agree with horseladi that it should be limited to top 30 of each division, i doubt this will happen.



so if stays as it is, which is as long as you show at 5 assoc. shows, you can come to "finals" then, at least split the sections, 1-30, 31-60, etc, so the top show against one another. And points are weighted based on the section, like 2x, 1x, 0.5x, 0.25x, etc.



I put that in writing as a recommendation 2 years ago. I just can't fathom why it's called a championship show if you can't compete against the horses that are in the top. This year, for example, my horse came into finals in 7th and ended up 2nd. Of the 6 above me, I only competed against 1 of them. The rest were in another section. I don't get that part of it.

BybeeGirl
Nov. 19, 2010, 11:37 PM
Maybe not a schedule question, but if we're discussing the show...

I was quite irritated to learn that the show photographer would not be posting proofs online unless he was paid a $25 fee to do so, as a result of internet theft. The $25 would be credited toward a purchase. But, those that purchased pictures at the show don't have theirs uploaded either.

After hanging out all night, I wanted to go home. I certainly didn't want to trek to view photos because I thought they'd be posted online, as in the past. Wrong.

Seriously, am I wrong to be irritated by this?

Rockfish
Nov. 20, 2010, 08:23 AM
^ agreed, very crappy. There is no guarantee that you'd even buy a pic from them, so poof goes the credit. I gave up looking at proofs since people took their sweet time at the computers. A simple water mark on the proof (like most photogs do) could be added to online proofs.

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 20, 2010, 08:36 AM
Ruby G. is, of course, correct. I've never gotten a straight answer, though, why the stalls, etc. are priced considerably less at other shows held there (ie. non hunter/jumper) .

Excellent point!!

QHmom
Nov. 20, 2010, 09:39 AM
Stalls? what about the Hotels too! We go to lexington ALOT! We saw that one weekend Hotels charged $59 a night for the Arabian show that weekend, next weekend for an A show they jacked the rooms $99!

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 20, 2010, 09:57 AM
I know nothing of hotel room pricing but I'll take a stab at the stall pricing.

Most of the permanent venues - VHC, KHP, HITS, Raleigh, etc. - charge shows they do not own by the stall/day. IOW...an independent four day show like the VHSA Finals would likely tell VHC they need, for example, 300 stalls beginning on Wed. and running through Sun. Let's say the VHC's fee per stall per day is $20. (I don't know the exact figure but that's likely in the ball park.) After doing the math one can conclude the show doesn't make "a killin'" on stalls.

BybeeGirl
Nov. 20, 2010, 03:06 PM
Stalls? what about the Hotels too! We go to lexington ALOT! We saw that one weekend Hotels charged $59 a night for the Arabian show that weekend, next weekend for an A show they jacked the rooms $99!

Hotel has a lot to do with holiday and local college schedule too. Our 4-H show ends up being on the same weekend as homecoming for either W&L or VMI, and the 4-H families end up paying quite a bit more.

Brydelle Farm
Nov. 20, 2010, 06:28 PM
I put that in writing as a recommendation 2 years ago.

Great minds think alike! ;)

Congrats on a super year!

LaBonnieBon
Nov. 20, 2010, 11:24 PM
I know nothing of hotel room pricing but I'll take a stab at the stall pricing.

Most of the permanent venues - VHC, KHP, HITS, Raleigh, etc. - charge shows they do not own by the stall/day. IOW...an independent four day show like the VHSA Finals would likely tell VHC they need, for example, 300 stalls beginning on Wed. and running through Sun. Let's say the VHC's fee per stall per day is $20. (I don't know the exact figure but that's likely in the ball park.) After doing the math one can conclude the show doesn't make "a killin'" on stalls.

Why are we charged more for the hunter shows than the QH shows? I am sure each group that uses the VHC is charged the same abount per stall.... that leaves me to guess that the hunter people are charged more per stall by the show organizers. That does not seem right to me...

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 21, 2010, 08:42 AM
I can't begin to hypothesize re: Quarter Horse shows/stall prices without being familiar with the length of shows, the entry fee structure and other fees one encounters at a QH show.

I do know H/J shows are more expensive to operate than say, a saddle horse show and probably a QH show.

I know I pay less for a permanent stall at the VHC's rated shows than I do at the KHP, andl less than a tent stall at Upperville, By the Bay, to name a few.

MoonLadyIsis
Nov. 21, 2010, 09:14 AM
It probably has to do with the late nights the ring crew and maintenance crews were stuck doing. 4:30am - 12:00pm is not exactly an easy day. I don't know what the other shows run like, but it would seem that the stall fees also cover grounds fees as I didn't see that as a section on the entry form.

Offset
Nov. 22, 2010, 02:38 PM
I know nothing of hotel room pricing but I'll take a stab at the stall pricing.

Most of the permanent venues - VHC, KHP, HITS, Raleigh, etc. - charge shows they do not own by the stall/day. IOW...an independent four day show like the VHSA Finals would likely tell VHC they need, for example, 300 stalls beginning on Wed. and running through Sun. Let's say the VHC's fee per stall per day is $20. (I don't know the exact figure but that's likely in the ball park.) After doing the math one can conclude the show doesn't make "a killin'" on stalls.



Ruby, not entirely sure I'm following you. I wasn't suggesting that the show was pocketing the difference. It has always been my understanding that stall fees there went to the facility and not to the show. My question was why the fees were so dramatically different for different shows (ie. quarter horse vs. arab vs. hunter/jumper). Just curious.

Brydelle Farm
Nov. 23, 2010, 08:58 AM
For those of you who would like the show to limit entries - be careful what you wish for.

While limiting entries would most certainly shorten the days, the lost revenue would create an inevitable increase in stall fees and entry for those who qualify.

I understand the consequences but still feel to promote and reward good riding and training, having the top 1-30 compete for the overall year end.

One thing they could to help with revenue, is to host a pre-show, one final associate show that has double points, this would be during the week or weekend proceeding, or something of the like, folks could use this show to prepare, and/or get in a final show to move up and/or for those who rarely get to show at the VHC and want a chance to reward themselves and don't qualify for the "finals" in their respective division. ONLY VHSA divisions would be on fri, sat, sun, top 30 to show.

Exploring/expanding their sponsorships, vendors and silent auctions as well. Just some ideas. ;)