Attention all Breeders re USDF Convention Report in Chronicle

[Tiki]

Good News/Bad News! I was very surprised, and not very happy, to read on page 43 and 45 in a section entitled 'Edification And Enlightenment' in the Dec. 19th issue of the Chronicle a report on The Advanced Young Riders Graduate Program.

The good news is that they are setting up an education program for young rider graduates from age 21-25 and have had an inaugural program which included lectures on business planning, judging and the L program, equestrian ethics and sportsmanship, the role of the veterinarian, legal issues for the equestrian, and how to find and keep sponsors.

The BAD news is they also offered a lecture on how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif This report is from the USDF Convention. That is the U.S. (for United States) Dressage Federation. I think that the fact that they are trying to build a bridge between young riders and the adult riding world is admirable, but already this country's equestrian organizations don't really support young horses in that if you qualify for the national finals and MAY have a chance to go to Europe for the FEI Young Horse Championship, you have to sign a waiver that YOU will pay ALL expenses incurred in sending your young horse to Europe. Now the United States Dressage Federation is teaching young rider graduates how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Why not just teach them the ins and outs of how to look at young horses and young horses in training and teach them what to look for and how to buy horses in general. Why, when our breeding programs in this country have come to the point of rivaling foals produced in Europe, are they teaching and basically encouraging young rider graduates to bypass young horses here and buy in Europe? And this by one of our National Organizations?

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[This message was edited by Tiki on Dec. 22, 2003 at 01:24 PM.]

[Tiki]

Good News/Bad News! I was very surprised, and not very happy, to read on page 43 and 45 in a section entitled 'Edification And Enlightenment' in the Dec. 19th issue of the Chronicle a report on The Advanced Young Riders Graduate Program.

The good news is that they are setting up an education program for young rider graduates from age 21-25 and have had an inaugural program which included lectures on business planning, judging and the L program, equestrian ethics and sportsmanship, the role of the veterinarian, legal issues for the equestrian, and how to find and keep sponsors.

The BAD news is they also offered a lecture on how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif This report is from the USDF Convention. That is the U.S. (for United States) Dressage Federation. I think that the fact that they are trying to build a bridge between young riders and the adult riding world is admirable, but already this country's equestrian organizations don't really support young horses in that if you qualify for the national finals and MAY have a chance to go to Europe for the FEI Young Horse Championship, you have to sign a waiver that YOU will pay ALL expenses incurred in sending your young horse to Europe. Now the United States Dressage Federation is teaching young rider graduates how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Why not just teach them the ins and outs of how to look at young horses and young horses in training and teach them what to look for and how to buy horses in general. Why, when our breeding programs in this country have come to the point of rivaling foals produced in Europe, are they teaching and basically encouraging young rider graduates to bypass young horses here and buy in Europe? And this by one of our National Organizations?

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[This message was edited by Tiki on Dec. 22, 2003 at 01:24 PM.]

[dray]

What a bunch of piss ants. Screw them. I can't wait to read what jack off in specific said that. The point of paying dues to USDF is what????

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.sportequine.com (http://www.sportequine.com)

[Oakleigh]

Thank you Tiki for bringing this to our attention. I'm looking further into this report.

If it is all correct, I'm very disappointed that the USDF is supporting and encouraging purchasing a young horse in Europe, when we are all working so hard to produce high quality offspring here. My farm and those of many of my friends have been participating in the sporthorse breeding program sponsored by the USDF and Cosequin, since its inception. It is certainly not an inexpensive program for us to be participating in!

Hopefully we can draw attention to the faux pas committed by the USDF when they scheduled this. It is a slap in the face to all US breeders, and to the sponsors of the USDFSHB program. The USDF needs to correct their intended action in offering this course.

Best regards,
Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

[Tiki]

I wasn't there. All I know is what I read. I am very curious about what their intention was. I think it is a slap in the face to a lot of people, especially breeders and trainers. Does our national organization really think we don't have good horses here? Well, actually, maybe we do already have the answer. Denny Emerson and Cheryl Frank have already said so. Now, someone in the USDF seems to be saying the same thing. I agree with you - we pay good money joining these organizations and supporting them through the Dressage SportHorse Breeding Shows, membership in the USDF and the (now) USEF and we get NO support in return. I still can't believe that our national organizations are telling people to go overseas to buy horses.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[alexandra]

One question came to my mind reading this:

What do you think of Klaus Balkenhol a GERMAN as the trainer of the US dressage team ???
Maybe he should stop training if you resent european background so much.
Well and send back Brentina, Flim Flam, Nikolaus and maybe German stud Vorwerk should not support the American team to lend them their stallions.

Just another point of view. (I for myself do not care about this at all, but one could really ask that question and stand up for it !)

Alexandra


I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.privat.t-online.de

[aurum]

I think this a nice compliment to the European breeders from the USDF. I do not see why this is bad for the US breeders. Quality will always find its way, wether bred in Europe or the USA.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[jr]

Instead of getting mad, I'd start looking at WHY people are buying overseas.

Breeding in this country IS wonderful. Unfortunately, the system for gettting those fantastic youngsters through the early stages of training in an economical fashion is not.

Those of us with limited budgets and limited time to devote to training a youngster from the ground up are likely to continue shopping overseas until we address our systemic problem.

Don't shoot the messenger. I agree that if the USDF is going to have a forum for buying horses overseas, they should ALSO have had a forum discussing American bred horses and how to improve the system.

[Tiki]

My beef isn't in any way against buying horses in Europe. There's no way we could have come as far as we did in the breeding world without European sires and some of the outstanding mares we've been able to bring over.

I also think our 'systems' of riding and training have a looooonnnnnggggg way to go, and that has been discussed on these boards.

The problem I have is that instead of teaching young rider graduates how to buy a horse, what to look for, what to ask for in a pre-purchase vet exam, how to look at pedigrees and performance IN GENERAL, how to evaluate young stock, what to look for in a horse under saddle - the program appeared to focus specifically on how to buy a horse in Europe. We DO have good horses here. We need to be evaluating our horses, along with European horses, for future success. IMHO this should have been a general lecture on how to evaluate a horse for purchase and then let them buy where they find the best horse for them.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[Oakleigh]

I am not against purchasing European horses, or having German trainers, or German horses on the team.

What I am concerned about is a national organization, supported by American dollars, is making a national statement that appears to endorse only European purchases.

I agree with Tiki, a generic course on how to buy a horse, no matter the location, would be more correct, coming from an organization supported by American dollars.

Where someone chooses to use the information they learn is up to them.

I own imported horses, as well as domestic bred.

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

[dray]

I don't think we leverage the resources we have here in America. I spent many years starting young Arabians, TBs, Morgans and a few Warmbloods that trickled in under saddle...retraining ex-race horses, gettign into the mind of horses that rear or bolt (although I crossed rearing horses off my list two years ago). Now I'm in Texas and waiting for my "year and a haflings" to grow up so that I can start long lining and backing them, etc. I take my time with the young horses. Long line for a long time. Get on and off them, on and off, walk in lost of straight lines in fields and rush nothing. Make eveyrthing so that nothing is a surprise. It takes time, but horses trained and started in this manner carry this with them forever. At least my opinion.

Sadly, in America, we have this "Quien es mas macho?" thread of "wonder training" where you create miracle horses in a day or three. Even Warmblood breeders in my area are sending their horses to cowboys to be sacked out and psyched out and the snake oil salesmen and their disciples profit, while those of us who were trained in what I understood to tbe the European way, are said to take too long and the process is too expensive. Some cute cowboy with a stache siddles up to a gal and starts the ..."Well sucks lil darlin, there ain't no need to pay for months of trainin to begin with...whai ah ken do that in thurty days..." and meanwhile check out the bits and paraphanlia and make sure hte horse isn't grounded and sat on ...etc.

Meanwhile, when the show career starts, the owners find value in the European system.

Now this isn't the entire problem, but I do think that many people don't want to invest a mere three months in getting a yuoungster off to a very good, fair start in the system framework the horse will be working in in the future. I think until this dicotomy is resolved, we will continue to have a disconnect here in America.

Meanwhile, I'll take my time with my young horses and I'll know they'll be started right. I'm breeding for horses that I can personally ride and sell.

I guess Pandora's box is still open.

[Oldenburg Mom]

I'm at home today, so I guess I can post. *sigh* Boy, do I miss my daily fix. :-(

ANYWAY, Tiki, I don't blame you for being peeved. If I were in your shoes I would be yelling bloody murder. If I were ANY breeder I would be yelling bloody murder. I would be furious!

Unfortunately, the issue, as we all know is training, as well as educating/developing the market for young horses, correctly started.

I am here. LLDM is here and a variety of people (Sporthorse South, Leena, STF, ThirdCharm, Lady Farrier, Silly Mommy,... and more!) have commented on the two other threads.

Can we put our collective heads together and come up with something to actually DO? If nothing else, a strong letter writing campaign to CoTH, USDF, USEF, etc., making proposals. I would also LOVE to get Janine Malone's POV on this. She singlehandedly started the USDF Breed shows ... and she knows a thing or three about getting things done.

C'mon guys. NONE of you out there are doormats, and I quit being one when I left Bozo.

Oh, and Tiki, I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I agree with you!!!

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Tiki]

Hijack away OM. We need all the help we can get. And Alexandra, PLEASE understand this is nothing against European horses, European markets, European trainers or anything else European. In fact, we are trying to emulate the European system - albeit perhaps with a bit of an American flavor - after all, we have problems no European country would have just due to the sheer size of this country.

What we have a problem with - as breeders of really good sporthorses - my colt last year was high score champion for all of ISR/OLNA, and placed 4th by a whisker (just 0.7 points) out of 1st place for Colts of 2003 at Devon - is our National Organization holding a class for Young Rider Graduates teaching them NOT how to buy a horse, but how to buy a horse in Europe.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, Tiki, can we start by getting a little more movement on this thread? Can you add some text to your title to indicate that we need input from everybody ... or maybe start a thread?

Maybe we should try moving this to a private topic ... and try and get everyone in who would/could come up with an agreement/plan of action to move the whole issue more into the limelight. Can we start a committee of breeders who post here on CoTH ... that might represent everyone?

I'm throwing ideas out there just to try and get something moving. How about getting everyone 'together' and writing an open letter from .... well, any breeder that wants to put their name to it .... that would be sent as a press release, to all the major horse publications, as well as posted on all the wide variety of horse sites?

Posting on CoTH, complaining and getting angry/frustrated does not SOLVE anything.

Does any of this make any sense?

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Tiki]

OK, I changed the title. I've also sent an email to the chairman of the USDF Breeder's Committee and my girlfriend was supposed to call USDF this morning to double check on what this lecture included. We've started with the steps.

Again, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here and tell people they HAVE to buy American. Everyone should be able to buy the best match for their needs. I'm just torqued that this was written up as specifically teaching people how to buy horses in Europe, not an in general lecture on how to buy horses. We've just been through this long bashing from Denny Emerson telling us we don't know how to breed horses here and people should go to Europe to buy, and now here's The USDF telling people how to do it. We've all proposed venues like inspections and breed shows until we're blue in the face and it's like spitting in the wind.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[poltroon]

I think your point is a good one, but I suggest you step back for a moment and take a deep breath.

I am quite certain that the USDF did not intend to slight American breeders; their intent was to help support this group of 21-25 year olds who currently get thrown to the wolves to try to figure out how to set themselves up as trainers. It's a noble goal and much needed.

I expect what happened is that they were trying to draw up a curriculum based on the experts they had in their pocket and things they wish they had known 10-20 years ago when they were starting out. They weren't thinking about breeders, or breeding, AT ALL.

So do write your letter. But don't assume they're dissing American horses - just assume they were thoughtless about it. Suggest alternatives AND if possible, suggest people who would be good teachers. I don't think that deleting that seminar would be right - instead, suggest they ADD to it by adding topics about finding horses in America, selecting young horses, appropriate vetting for young horses, understanding pedigrees, etc, so that they will feel more comfortable shopping for domestic bred youngsters.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, personally, I like the idea of an open letter to the USDF and USEF sent also to the horse press.

Here, let me start it off ... we can add and subtract like one of the stories on Off Course:


------------------

An Open Letter to the USDF, USEF and Horse Community:

This letter was started as a response to the recent USDF Convention Report in Chronicle of the Horse, announcing that there was a lecture on "How to buy horses in Europe."

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Tiki]

Thanks for your support Poltroon, but all of your comments are things that I already said above that they should have done. I think it probably was thoughtless. I'm hoping to draw enough attention to it to have them consider making it generic. I'm all for continuing education - I think it's critical. I just wish that both of our national organizations would keep it generic. After all the long harangues on the other posts about Denny telling people here they didn't know what they were doing in breeding and how people should go to Europe to buy horses - all supported by Cheryl Frank, I'm simply amazed that USDF approved the lecture in that format.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[sm]

well, here's my thoughts, some of which may go over like a lead balloon:

When reading the replies and speaking of the EUROPEAN way, clearly we are referring to the German school. Not Cadre Noir instructors, or the French Russian school, for example. (These are quite different schools.) It's very nice for the German school to expand their school to all of Europe, it is just not very accurate.

Young Riders should learn the history of different schools and learn what makes a good dresage horse. All the masters of dressage, not just the ones of the past 40 years. A tiny blink of an eye in the total history of dressage. In 1968 Olympics, it was the Fr-Russian school (Kizimov-Russian) gold, then Klimke (silver-German) then Neckerman (bronze-German).

So yes, it becomes important for the young rider to watch and pick out the horse who can get the job done. My sawed off runt from the track routinely puts in better tests than the $40,000 -- $60,000 imported WBs, and he is doing I-1. Unfortunately, amoung teachers of the german school, he is no one's idea of a dressage horse. The other european schools were more apt to see his natural talent.

I would really like to see the teachings on, "How to buy a dressage horse in Europe." I would like to evaluate it. Having said that, I agree with others who would like to take some action with USDF, etc. It is not very responsible to call yourself an educator of youth and come up with a course title like that.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, we can all comment here until we're blue in the face, but it's not going to make a fig's bit of difference unless we actually DO something.

I hate to keep harping on it, but writing a letter is the most innocuous beginning we can make.

What it DOES require is everyone putting their thoughts together and down on paper. And there are some amazingly erudite and articulate writers here on CoTH.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[ShotenStar]

As an alternative:

We could all get over it and recognize that this is now a World Economy, where borders are approaching a state of meaninglessness. Just as many U.S. horses are purchased by folk in other countries and shipped elsewhere -- we just don't have a good mechanism for reporting on these sales.

*star* - who does enough export paperwork to justify the comment

-----------------------------------
Those who think they know it all...
...Upset those of us who do...

[dray]

Very good points on several fronts.

jr...how much is too expensive? I am interested in knowing how expensive expensive is because we're heard that in several posts without a dollar amount specified.

Many of us have dedicated our adult lives to studying various schools. I have studied with a French School, a Portuguese School, a Russian (kind of French in philosophy) and several German trainers. Oh...forgot about Denmark. There are things to take from all of them...work in hand, long lining, backing philosophies....and I think riders need exposure to GOOD teachers of several schools because every horse has its own path and sometimes different things work for different horses. Not a lot different form teaching kids...sometimes you have to rephrase your statement or question.

I was on the phone with a fellow BB member and we were discussing this thread. As I type, she is arranging transport for one of her three year olds to come to me for young horse trianing and to be sold. I am so very excited about this. So that is one thing that we can do...talk to each other...do the private topics and work together.

I'm sure there are others on this board who start their own young horses...and have room for a young outside horse or two...

just a thought.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Dray!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I was on the phone with a fellow BB member and we were discussing this thread. As I type, she is arranging transport for one of her three year olds to come to me for young horse trianing and to be sold. I am so very excited about this. So that is one thing that we can do...talk to each other...do the private topics and work together.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What wonderful news! Congratulations to both of you!

That's the way to beat the system ... working together and using each other's talents! Whoopwhooopwhoopwhooop.

What great news!

Maybe we should have a thread like the one on off course ... matching babies that need training with trainers that need babies!

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[dray]

Alexandra,

I don't think any of us are questioning the value of our European roots. It is the root of our culture as well as our horsemanship.All of my family roots come from there.

Please try to walk in our shoes. If your governing organization made a public declaration that your young German riders should learn to buy in Poland or Belarus, how would you feel as a breeder? We Americans pay fees to this organization and they are not supporting us.

I freely admit that ALL of my breeding horses are imported. I have bookcases full of books on riding and books from all over Europe about pedigrees, stallion directories, mare books, etc. And then the foreign magazines...as well as domstic ones.

I am not pretending that these horses in America all but popped from Zeus's head like Athena Nike...they had to come from somewhere...Europe. As a group, we feel that we are breeding some superior horses and are being told so by our European counterparts. In fact, a colt that I bred this year has beensold and the owners will probably send him to Europe for stallion testing...another issue to be adddressed imo...another road to cross.

As such, we are discussing here...what's with the USDF? What are they thinking?

It has nothing to do with being anti-European at all. We love and respect what we have gained from Europe, but it has not been without a cost. First, we have spent a lot of money buying breeding stock form Europe. Many of us have sacrificed a great deal financially to develop our dream of breeding and riding and still do so this very day. Most of the breeders are not heirs and heiresses, but regular Joes and Jodies with day jobs and families in addition to our farms.

Our economy has been on the fritz as a result of inheriting the economic rubble created by Bill Clinton's administration and all but abolition of our military forces. Then 9-11 and our world became even more complex. Our country has to rebuild our military prowess while trying to come out of an already precarious economic tail spin.

We are doing all we can to continue to breed our horses. Many mares have been left open in the past year or two. Breeders are faced with high stud fees to get the best stallions. That's another big difference that we face here. In Europe, you can just about ride your mare bareback and get to a fabulous stallion! I know not literally...but almost. We don't have that here.

This has become long, but I want to personally say that any comments I have made are not ANTI-European...it's just that I feel like USDF just slapped me in the face...along with some other people as well.

Nothing personal. If you have suggestions that we can implement in America, please tell us.

[dray]

Oldenburg Mom,

Thanks! That's kind of what I view this BB as being for. I feel like Christmas. this mare is just a beauty.

[poltroon]

Adding to Oldenburg Mom's letter:

An Open Letter to the USDF, USEF and Horse Community:
This letter was started as a response to the recent USDF Convention Report in Chronicle of the Horse, announcing that there was a lecture on "How to buy horses in Europe" intended for the new Advanced Young Riders Graduate Program.

We are very excited about this program, and we hope it will be very successful in helping our promising American-trained Young Riders to transition to successful professional careers. However, as American sport horse breeders, we are concerned about the subtle bias involved in including such a seminar for these young professionals. Certainly, buying abroad is a valuable skill that has mostly been learned by trial and error through the school of hard knocks. But, its inclusion in the curriculum subtly suggests that people should be buying their dressage horses in Europe.

The community of American sport horse breeders is currently producing horses as good as the best horses in Europe. However, we find that young professionals don't seek our horses out. Many of them don't know how to select or evaluate young horses from any country. We would ask if this lecture could be broadened and supplemented to discuss buying horses in general, and evaluating young horses regardless of origin. For example, what qualities can you expect a youngster to grow in or out of, and what qualities can you expect to be in the adult horse? How do you vet a young horse?

[Now add a conclusion about what you want them to do and who they can contact etc.] http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Poltroon -

I believe the bias was anything but subtle.

But I am definately NOT a diplomat, as you apparently are! LOL

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Oldenburg Mom]

We need a leader.

Since Tiki started this, I nominate her.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Spring]

Ours is a small breeding farm which also has a trainer specializing in starting young horses. We definitely see this as a big need in our area but it will be years before this young woman becomes known and some of our youngsters who have been properly started, are recognized for their American birth and training. Alas, we still sell imorted horses to those wanting FEI rides now! The market takes quite a while to change.
Barbara
www.hiddenspringfarm.net (http://www.hiddenspringfarm.net)

[jr]

Dray -- I am ( and many of my contemporaries) are looking for horses that we can take into the ring at the 3'6" to 4' level to start. One that has solid flatwork and some show experience, enough so that the horse is comfortable around a course of sizeable fences with an amateur ride.

I have gotten horses from Ireland and Germany that fit that bill between $20 and $30K.

I looked at American breds as well... but by the time they get to that point in our system, you have an owner with at least that much in them, and multiple trainers standing in line for commissions.

My Irish horse is twice as nice, and cost me half as much as the horses I was being shown that were bred in this country, and brought up through the ranks in our show system.

It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the horse, but the cost of putting the training and mileage on them in this country. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oakleigh]

I've already written to a friend of mine who works in the upper levels of USDF and gave her a link to this thread, after I gave her my opinion on this endorsement by the USDF.

Hopefully she will read this thread. I'll follow up with her.

I do believe a letter, or letters on paper to the USDF would be beneficial. I agree, that it may just have been over-enthusiasm or thoughlessness.

Oakleigh

~~~~&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;****~~*~~****&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;~~~~
Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

[Oakleigh]

jr, nothing wrong with your search and purchase. You missed the main point of this thread.

The USDF, which is supported by US dollars, should not be teaching a course on "How to buy a horse in Europe". The course should be "How to buy a horse".

Check the start of the thread out again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oakleigh

~~~~&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;****~~*~~****&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;~~~~
Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

[Laurie@CBF]

You guys are way too polite!! I have been on a letter writing campaign for a few other things - like getting the breeder info listed on the eventing Horse ID form. I agree with OM that we need to put pen to paper. I do not think email is sufficient. I am going to write a letter - which in its "rough" form I will share here. I will do "spell check" on the "real letter" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. If others come up with an "open letter" I would love to sign it as well.


Dear UDSF

I was quite disappointed recently when I read in the recent COTH article that the USDF is offering Young Rider lectures on how to buy a horse in Europe. There was no mention of any lectures about buying horses in North America.

I am a North American sporthorse breeder. I pay my USDF membership as well my horses' USDF HID#'s. This is on top of the USEF and USEA numbers/memberships that I pay for myself and my horses. While I do show my young horses in the USDF sport horse shows that is not the ultimate goal for my breeding program. My goal is to breed performance horses.

Sporthorse breeding has come a long way in the last 15-20 years. The dedication and resources that many breeders have invested is immeasurable. The quality of the young horses being produced in North America is becoming on par with that of our European counterparts. Unfortunately we do not receive any recognition for this as we have no good system in North America for getting these horses "started" properly. The current process requires breeders to send young horses out into training programs that average over $1,000. per month! This becomes cost prohibitive when it is time to sell this young individual. All over North America sporthorse breeders are struggling with the "training" issue. This does not occur in Europe as they have an excellent "Bereiter" program where almost all developing riders go through the "young horse" training process. There are farms that specialize in just training young horses. It is a source of pride for them to train a young horse. All you have to do is look at the prominence the young horse competitions play in the European system to see that this is true.

Dressage in a one word definition is "training". In our zeal to "win" it appears that our major governing body the "USDF" has lost appreciation for that definition. Sending our Young Riders to Europe to buy horses is a short cut - probably very suitable for our very "want it now - everything is disposable" American attitude. This will only teach them that they need a big enough bank account to buy the horses they need to win on. Forgotten will be the premise of the training scale and actually learning how to bring a horse along.

Sporthorse breeders have struggled "quietly" on their own way too long. The size of our country in itself is a huge barrier to our success. Due to our litigious society our young horses have to "pass" a much higher standard of Pre-purchase exams than those performed in Europe. We have suffered through the National Governing Body dispute as it wasted immense resources. We have paid and continue to pay a ridicilous number of fees for memberships and redundant numbers for our horses to compete. We will not continue to sit quietly any longer. We deserve some consideration in this process if for no other reason than for the fees that we pay to this organization.

There is a great resource of young horses in this country. There are a large number of sporthorse breeders (across many registries) that are anxious to forge relationships with young professionals. Please take this into consideration in your future Young Rider educational programs. I look forward to a response from the USDF on this issue.

Yours Truly,



Laurie C. Cameron, DVM
Clear Blue Farm

[jr]

Oakleigh -- I was responding to Dray's question. She asked my price range. I was simply explaining my price range, expectations, and reason therefore.

In my original post I stated that I believed that the forum they held was fine, and perhaps they should have had ADDITIONAL forum. On Amercian breds among other potential topics.

I didn't miss the point of the thread, although I do think you're all in denial over the basic problem. You can title the teaching forum anything you want and make it about buying a horse period. Several posts, however, were clearly asking " why are we encouraging people to buy European?"

[dray]

jr,

Thanks for the input. Although dressage is my personal specialty, I still jump...just in my dressage daddle and 3'9" is tops for me...eyes closed... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

I think your price/expectation ratio is fair, but I ahve to ask, how much of that price is allocated to shipping?

And I guess I was asking your opinion on what monthly training fee do you find reasonable in your area?

[dray]

Oldenburg Monm...I don't think it was subtle either...let me rephrase my original question..."Who at USDF supported this session?" I have a day job and wokr iwht CEO's and executuves every day. They pu ttheir pants on the same way we do...one leg at a time.

This really is a pisser.

[dray]

In case anyone ever wonders, my right index finger was smashed to smitherenes in the early 90s and is way slower than my left hand, with which I write anyway. That's why so many of my words have the first two letters switched. I should have a signature line for that or something.

[dray]

jr...that would be a dressage saddle, not a daddle. I need spell check. Every minute I type, I should be doing something else. AUGGGHHH!

[siegi b.]

To Laurie&CBF - great letter, and one I would co-sign as a breeder of sport horses. One thing you may want to add is the fact that American breeders still aren't listed in awards/show/other programs, something that would go a long way in proving to the young riders that there are breeders whose horses place and win.
Thanks for a good letter!
Siegi

[TKR]

I completely agree that the USDF dropped the ball on this subject. It is an insult to the many sport breeders in the US for the USDF to sponsor a program devoted to promoting breeders overseas -- perhaps they should also furnish a list of "approved" breeders, agents, etc. to further the outrage. They need to simply apologize and change the program to "How to buy a young horse" and encourage the many breeders in the US to help develop such a educational format and it would also help to facilitate the sporthorse breeding programs here, perhaps bridging the gap between breeders and riders. I think the above letter is good and I think all the breeders should write, call, email or sign a petition expressing their concern.
PSG

[retreadeventer]

There are some very good opinions on this subject and a lot of moving and shaking. I bet there could be a new Young American Sport Horse Society developed without too much trouble that would give us all, breeders and trainers, a voice with some clout, and establish as a goal a young horse training center, young rider trainer program, annual performance tests and sales, etc. What do you think?

Don't underestimate the power of a single committed person. They say one person can't change the world, but indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

[Tiki]

Wow guys and gals. This is incredible support. I think we would have much more clout if we 'snowflaked' them. Anyone who's ever been in the Army knows what that means. Basically, it means to bombard them with individual letters (snowflakes), rather than send them one letter signed by all, or a petition. If you and all your friends could copy the sample letters here by Poltroon and Laurie and add some of the suggestions offered by some of the others, PLUS personalize it any way you want with your own individual comments as well. I think that would HAVE to draw some attention to our needs. I bet any of us anywhere near where they give their next seminar would be happy to spruce up and braid our youngstock and/or breeding stock and parade them out for viewing and comment. Hilltop Farm has done this for judges seminars and it is sooooo much more effective than a straight lecture. They can look at the horses and see them move in hand and maybe free. This is great guys. Keep it up. AND A HUGE THANKS!!!!!

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[Tiki]

BTW, Lendon Gray's name was associated with this program, and she has been wonderful at working with young riders. I don't have any idea who actually came up with the buying horses in Europe idea though. Lendon, are you out there? Can you give some feedback on where this came from???

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[LLDM]

Wow, sorry I am late to this party! Here, here and all that. Whatever I can do to help. Someone asked about dollars, I will find those threads and link them. Just give me a minute.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[LLDM]

Here's the first one about US breeders, money, ideas to fix the system "New & Different" (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=180607911) .

I'll find the other one.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[LLDM]

Okay, here the other thread "Oakleigh's Comment by OMom" (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=589601511&p=1) which is along a similar vein. I just don't want all this info to get lost since we are all talking around the same sorts of things.

If the USDF is in a position to assist young riders/future trainers and breeders, then they should be aware of the issues facing us.

Should we post to trainers on other pages (Dressage, eventing, etc.) and linkd them here? I am a little worried that the trainers aren't finding these. They are part of the equation. I'm happy to do so if you all think it's okay, and it's okay with Erin.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[ise@ssl]

Yes it is a world economy and if some independent or private company wanted to hold seminars on "buying a horse in Europe"....so be it. But I'd like to see how many Germans pay dues to the USDF. The UNITED STATES Dressage Federation has specific responsibilities to it's members - MANY OF WHOM ARE BREEDERS!!

And PLEASE don't tell me the German Equestrian Federation holds seminars on buying horses in Holland! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BTW - it will be interesting to see who actually put this concept together - a person who is involved with importing horses or someone connected to people who do?? There would have to be some economic connection to have the experience to speak on this. That would be a conflict.

[sm]

OM, count me in. I am not the one to draft a letter because (1) I haven't seen the contents of the instruction to YRs, (2) I yield to the more experienced of this forum.

But I do know it's irresponsible at best to have a course geared to young riders with that title. Still, I am really really curious to see the contents of the lesson. I'd like to see how much is actual horsemen's knowledge and how much is marketing "spin".

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, if you can believe this, I am getting ready to go to work ... and I just HAD to log on and see where this thread went before I left.

Tell me this isn't really sad and pathetic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Back to the issue ---

Everyone has great ideas. Really great ideas. And Laurie, your letter was articulate and polite.

Tiki - yes, let's snowflake 'em. (Were you in the Army? My brother did 25 years. I'm so proud of him.) Perhaps as other people write letters they can post them ... in order to share ideas with everyone else writing/reading this thread.

But look what's happening ... we've got lots of ideas percolating, lots of movement here, but we've got nowhere to go.

Hollihorse said ....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Young American Sport Horse Society developed without too much trouble that would give us all, breeders and trainers, a voice with some clout, and establish as a goal a young horse training center, young rider trainer program, annual performance tests and sales, etc. What do you think?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would suggest that this is a great idea, and the function of this organization would be as a LOBBY - to petition USEF, USDF etc. And it's going to take a miracle to make it happen.

The bottom line is we can all write letters, yak until we're blue in the face on this BB (and others) but we will be ineffective unless we pull together as one group, one voice.

The biggest question I have to ask you all: can we put aside all the pettiness and bickering and work together? Regardless of registry? Including all breeders, even those you may not agree with?

I have GOT to go to work before I get fired ... I'll try and post this evening.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Curious how many of you have read the Chronicle article which set off this tizzy/batch of brainstorming??

It does seem like it would be a wonderful thing for North American breeders to take steps wowrking together to make it easier to produce and successfully market fabulous sporthorses. I'm right there cheering if that's what comes of this.

BUT, in reading the article, I see a mom, apparently an active volunteer, who saw a need for a program "designed to build a bridge between young rider status and the adult world of teaching, training, and international competition."

She enlisted volunteers, and put together a program "which included lectures on business planning, judging and the L program, equestrian ethics and sportsmanship, the role of the veterinaarian, legal issues for the equestrian, buying horses in Europe, and how to find and keep sponsors."

So far, that's not reading like a) an easy task b) evil incarnate or c) a plot by anybody to destroy NA breeding. Definitely a program which NA breeders might have set up with a different emphasis, but instead of leaping all over people who make an effort and do something, and an organization which supports people in making that effort, how about taking a deep breath anad doing something proactive, rather than reactive??

Admittedly, many of you have already taken that deep breath and are doing fabulous brainstorming. The inclination to rip every person and organization a new asshole when there is a perceived slight, however real, saddens me. People and organizations generally do the best they can. Don't kill them for being human, or being staffed by humans.

[ise@ssl]

Well I sent an Email to the Director of the USDF to ask if this was really a part of the Young Riders program and who felt buying horses in Europe was important enough to be in the program.

Jeannette - you can demean the breeders on this thread as going off in a snit. But for those of us who do this 24/365 and take it on the chin about what we breed and how it stacks up - it might be nice to see the USDF - which WE support having a focus on buying a horse in the USA. Let people who make a living importing horses put together programs privately on buying horses in Europe.

What I find the most disturbing is that this is aimed at our YOUNG RIDERS!!! Nothing like implanting in our next generation of top competitors to BUY IN EUROPE. It's nice this "MOM" saw the need, put in the time and put together a program. BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE - NOE ONE at the USDF saw any problem with focusing on BUYING HORSES IN EUROPE???????????????????????????????????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Ilona - demeaning? No, not I. Observing and shaking my head, yup.

Maybe I just read too much Dale Carnegie as a child, but I know how differently I respond to two scenarios. If you say, "Jeannette, awesome job putting together that educational program! Next time could I volunteer to run a session on buying horses? I'd hate for the next generation of pros to think they have to go abroad to buy good horses" you'll get a much bigger role in educating me than if you say, "You expletive expletive expletive, etc! I can't believe your stupidity! Are you always this stupid???"

Whether I'm speaking to a stupid person or not, my experience leads me to prefer the former approach, for selfish reasons as well as humanitarian ones. It works better!

[LLDM]

Okay guys, we can't let this discussion disintegrate!

Jeannette - Please understand there is some venting going on here. This is the best place to blow off a little steam before B%$@*ing directly at the USDF.

Please understand that this does, in fact, hurt the US breeders. It was probably not an intentional thing, but if we don't speak up and say ouch it will keep happening.

That said, you are correct when you say to do something useful and helpful. We will, we are! If you will read some of the other threads I linked, you will see that.

That fact that no one putting together this program (good intended as it is) even thought about us (US breeders) just goes to show us we have even more work to do than we thought. It's been very hard in this economy already for us. So please forgive us if we go off a little here. That doesn't mean we are all going to sign a mean nasty letter. If they do get some mean nasty letters, well, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I know if I do something really stupid and hurt someone, even unintentionally, I would not be suprised or upset if I was called on it, even harshly. It would make me more carefull. This does not mean I think we should all write mean letters! It does mean one or two wouldn't be the end of the world.

Mix those with some well worded thoughtful concerns, suggestions and offers to help remedy the situation and we may get our points accross and some real change!

My 2 cents.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[ise@ssl]

Well Jeannette - you must not have followed umpteen threads on various BB's including this one one Sporthorse Breeding in the USA. And please don't say anyone used explitives. No one did as I look at the thread.

We have a right to be passionately upset about this. Walk in our shoes for a year and you'll see that whatever is right is to someone else's credit - what is wrong is always the US Breeders.

I've seen more horses than I can count brought in from Europe. Big price tag and many are never ridden by the owners. The trainers love them. They got a big commission and they get paid to keep them going.

We've all worked on seminars, sponsored classes and championships, sponsored inspections, etc. etc. etc. Most people who breed horses don't have time to go to conventions or serve on more committees and review proposed lectures.

But you'd have to be lost in space to think that lecturing our next generation of riders ...how to buy horses in Europe wouldn't create a flap. The USDF knows better and should consider many dues paying members and people paying for horse numbers are Breeders.

It's a two way street Jeannette. We feel the USAE; USEA; USDF think of Breeders as an afterthought - rather than the accomplished group of professionals that exists and keeps growing.

I just don't understand the approach by the USDF to response from the Breeders. It's like saying ..."why did you have to jump like that when I poked you in the eye?!".

[Tiki]

Oh Lord, Ilona. I just about spit Coke all over my keyboard at that comment, "Why did you have to jump like that when I poked you in the eye?"

Jeannette, we now have inspectors - from Europe - saying that our best foals presented at the inspections are the equivalent (or even better) of the best that Europe can produce. We still have a problem with trainers for young horses and we are in the process of addressing that - on this very board!!! Denny Emerson held a 'breeding seminar' at Rolex where he just about said we didn't know what we were doing in this country with breeding and people should go to Europe to buy horses. We thought we had worked most of that out and now this. These are our National Organizations for Pete's sake. Telling people to go to Europe to buy horses for Pete's sake. Remember that old movie with the guy in the window of an upper floor yelling out "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"? Well, that's the way we're beginning to feel. And yet we're still trying to be nice and just ask them to keep it generic and just teach how to buy a horse, NOT how to buy a horse in Europe. We're NOT asking them to keep it to how to buy a horse in the U.S.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[mbp]

Jeannette - I do understand your point. I think all the breeders need to understand the point that the program was not put together for US Breeders - but rather for riders. The USDF is not about US Breeders, it is about the riders. If the USDF believes that the "winning strategy" for riders is to go buy in Europe - then that is what they will go with. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But, Jeannette, that acknowledged, can you see how FRUSTRATING it is to US Breeders. USEF is not "about" US Breeders, but we are expected to belong, to pay dues, to support shows, to contribute to fundraising, to record horses, etc. USDF is not "about" US Breeders. But we are expected to belong, to pay dues, to ... I will say that USDF brought about the Cosequin series, so it is doing more for the US Breeder, but still, how demoralizing that we pay to two national organizations, neither of which is really about promoting our interests. Not only that, neither feels badly about specifically promoting adverse interests. &lt;S&gt;

Breeders have their registries. The registries in many cases are not really "about" doing much more than inspections and papers and they often have some focus on sending people, breeders and buyers, to Europe. They often are appointed boards, not elected. The piecemeal the breeders and seem to have done far more to dividing them, than to uniting them. The breeders pay for this as well.

It all really underscores how desparately the breeders need a national organization that is "about" promoting and providing for US Breeders. If that were to come into existence, really, why would a breeder even bother with USEF or USDF? Or might it be that with the possiblity of exodus from the ranks, the organizations might become more interested in offering items like - seminars on how to buy successfully at home http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Having a national organization focused on the breeders, all the breeders, is really the best way to go. It also would give some VOTING representation with the new USEF, in its new structure. Minimal - but better than none.

[arnika]

OMGiH! I haven't checked the boards for a few days and I was stunned to see this thread. Since I don't expect to see my copy of the COTH until sometime after Xmas I'm going by the written reports here.

hollihorse, I'm with you. That is exactly how the USDF started. People got fed up with the non-attention of the AHSA to dressage matters and started their own association. I think a new one titled American Sporthorse Association(or American Sporthorse Breeders Association preferrably) is just what the doctor ordered. It would give all American breeders a group that would speak to their specific interests. It could promote the best of the youngstock raised here and allow riders easy access to them.

How nice would it be to look for a weanling to 4 yo by logging on to the website for the ASBA and have all WB/Sporthorse breeders listed across the country? Either broken down by breed/registry or area and with contact info, directions and any other criteria anyone would choose. The USEF HID# could be used for identification or the registration #/HID combined if different. As it grew shows could be held, points and awards given, the database we've all been waiting for would be done. If the assoc. decided to work with USEF/USDF in the future, fine. But at least there would be some support for US breeders.

And Ilona, I too have Coke on my keyboard now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Terry

[mbp]

Hollihorse - that is just the type of thing that I envision as a more successful approach.

If anyone has read the history that was recently printed of the USDF and how it evolved, you could see tremendous parallels to the situation with US Breeders now. Many disparate and free standing groups, all organized under different guidelines and with different purposes, some judges, some local riding clubs, some big show committees, all banding together to create USDF from whole cloth. Because USEF (then AHSA) was not doing anything for the dressage riding community and because all the disparate small groups did not have a way to weild clout.

Edited: Arnika I cross posted with you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I did sketch out some ideas on the thread linked above.

[Lendon Gray]

Donna,

Someone emailed me to lead me to this thread and I will answer you specifically because you signed your name. (I have this thing about talking to people who feel the need to hide their names.)

Anyway, don't get mad at USDF. I am the "piss ant/ jackoff" that you want to "screw". The officers of USDF had nothing to do with the subjects of the Graduate Young Rider Weekend subjects.

Over a period of many months I canvassed young professionals about subjects they would like to have covered. The subject in question was often requested. As chairman of the committee, I chose the final list of subjects and found speakers.

To be honest I only skimmed this thread. Seems there is a lot of anger out there -- any of it that is about the Graduate Program must be directed to me. Seems to me USDF has done a lot to encourage breeders in the US.

Merry Christmas and I hope the New Year will bring you all some happiness and joy.

[This message was edited by Lendon Gray on Dec. 24, 2003 at 08:25 AM.]

[LLDM]

Dear Lendon Gray,

Ouch. I am surprised at this response from you. Your name was involked here in this thread, not as a target, but as a request for an informed opinion. Yes, there is anger here. But there is also a genuine desire on the part of US breeders to fix a number of problems that exist in the industry as a whole. By fixing these problems the whole US program will be healthier and more competitive. Including your Young Riders and Graduates programs.

I know your time is precious, but I feel it is unfair for you to respond at all if you do not take the time to actually read all that is written on this thread, if not the threads which were also referenced. We are highly endebted to CoTH for providing us a forum to find and meet others who share our issues. This is an open forum for discussion and as such provides the best the internet has to offer. A place for people normally isolated by their circumstance to share ideas, laughter, to learn and often, share their pain. I am sorry you don't understand that.

We were hoping that you, with all your experience in getting things done, would hear us and offer some suggestions. Maybe even support the concept of "buying domestic". Since no one knew who had developed the Graduate curiculum, no one was trying to attack you, or anyone else, directly or on purpose. We were simply saying "ouch" and why must it be a seminar specific to European buying. I am sorry if you took it personally. That was not the intent.

It seems to me that the intent of your reply was that we should "shut up and do something". You were not the first to mention that in this thread. There are many voices of reason here. We will and we are!

In the future I am sure we will be more careful not to involk your name. This is clearly a concern outside your interest. If you consider ever expanding your program to include information on how to find horses or prospects in the US, I am sure you will have plenty of volenteers to chose from.

Thank you for clarifying the source of the Graduate curriculum and absolving the USDF. It has been a point of confusion here.

I also wish you a lovely Christmas and New Year free of pain and loss.

Laurie L. Dowling-McIntire
Southern Cross Farm

Mostly Harmless

[talloaks]

LLDM you are so politically gracious. I would have thought from Lendon Grey's response that it should be suggested she get her glasses changed, buy a hearing aid, or at least get out of her vacuum of self adulation!!!

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

[dray]

Lendon,

Do take time to read this response. I do so want to savor my fifteen minutes of fame.

I’m setting down my English silver tray of Belgian chocolates and taking off my white silk French gloves. I should probably roll down my stockings as well since I've been beckoned to trounce through the mud.

Seriously, please don’t take that holier than thou tone with me. You don’t know me from Adam’s house cat. I do my own share of volunteering. I'm a Girl Scout Leader (fifth year), Room Mother of my daughter's fifth grade class, volunteer hours of dressage schooling to a friend's riding students, school volunteer (supplementing specifically life science, poetry exposure and history) as well as arrange two field trips a month, and friend of many emerging adolescent girls who frequent my home. Volunteering doesn't make anyone special. It's just what you do to return to society. Did I mention I have a full time job and horses to ride (including my stallion) and seven foals due this spring? It truly is a miracle for one as ignorant, idle and unwashed as I. I forgot…you merely implied I was selfish or maybe idle, but I guess I’m just too stupid to tell. Pardon me.

More important and to the point regarding working with young people, in addition to being a Mother, I have been a UMYF leader; public school teacher of remedial reading, honors English, Yearbook, Newspaper, Algebra, and Self Esteem and Social Responsibility for grades 7 -12 in the various subjects. Henceforth, I have some degree of subject matter experience in dealing with young people.

In addition, I breed European horses here on the third coast and am an avid rider. I'm also writing two books at the moment, one in partnership with my best friend from college. I guess I'm just such a fast reader that I do have time to stay current on equestrian events on various sources including this bulletin board. It is my responsibility, as I don’t have a trust fund supporting my efforts.

I digress. Regarding the young ones. Usually when I poll a group of young ones, I listen to what they have to say and as the adult leader, provide direction. I have a general rule of thumb in this regard…what a young person asks for is simply a bartering chip and not usually what they need or require. For example, my daughter might want pop tart for breakfast, but she’ll do better on her tests if I cook her an egg on the hole or something like that.

You could have just as easily compiled a session on buying European Warmbloods in America. None of on this board make secret of the fact that we have invested our hearts, souls and often our last dollar importing breeding stock. You’d be welcome to use some of my efforts as examples. I have one colt, which is now owned by the owners of Diamond, whose future seems to hold being EXPORTED TO EUROPE for the stallion test. I have another colt that was rated First Premium and stallion prospect by the Danish, a very, very tough registry and a filly also rated a 9 overall first premium. I breed nice horses. So do others on this board. A young rider would be lucky to have one of them. I know I am.

And oh by the way...how exactly does a 21 - 25 year old buy a horse in Europe with the 30% decline in the USD:Euro ratio on the past year along with a corresponding rise in import fees? I wasn’t a business major, but that just doesn’t seem bright to me.

Donna Lee Ray
Carson Farm
Burleson, Texas USA
www.sportequine.com (http://www.sportequine.com)

[Tiki]

Oh my, Lendon. I think you better get off your high horse and take the burr out from under the saddlepad. Where on earth on this thread did you read that anyone is out to "screw" you? I think one person, on 3 pages of postings said something about piss ant, but the tone of most of this was not to crucify anyone but rather to wonder why a specific topic in the bridge program couldn't be a more generic theme on how to buy a horse in general. As I requested, you did come back and give feedback as to where this came from - the young rider graduates asked for it. Now I have to wonder what is wrong in that these new, young, up and coming trainers think that the only horse to have is one from Europe. I wasn't there so I don't know. Do these young people think that it is better to buy a made horse in Europe that they can take right into the ring than to even consider what might be available here? I'm not trying to be difficult, I really want to know what the problem is that riders/buyers in this country don't even want to consider American bred horses. You are one of the top trainers, teachers and riders in this country. You have an outstanding reputation for taking on and improving ANY horse of ANY breed. You've had tremendous success with all kinds of horses, and I think almost all of them were American bred. Again, we are not trying to be restrictive and insist that only American bred horses be considered, we ask only that we at least either get equal time or that some of these programs be more generic. These young professionals might do better with information on HOW to buy a horse than WHERE to buy it.

Warmest regards and best wishes for a Merry Christmans and a safe, happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.

Sheila O'Keefe
Tranquility Farm
Charles Town, WV
(and by the way, all that information is available in the farm link at the bottom of all my posts - plus lots more)

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[talloaks]

When you think about it, you know not all of those youngsters in the program have been to Europe and they probably relish the thought of going overseas as part of their education but really for a good time in another part of the world. Especially if it is paid for as part of the training!! All youngsters enjoy a good time away from home!!!

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

[Tiki]

Actually, Lendon gave back some very good information - which is exactly what I asked for - thanks, Lendon. Sorry if your feelings were hurt Lendon. I don't think you really took the time to read the posts, though.

Basically Lendon said that the "kids" asked for a lecture on how to buy horses in Europe. Why is that? Why would they want to know how to buy horses in Europe? Maybe because our upper level riders and our trainers ride horses they bought in Europe?

I'm thinking that part of our problem, and the reason people aren't looking here, MAY be that although we are (now) producing some outstanding sporthorses, very well raised from foalhood to be cooperative and easy to work with, probably the oldest of our really good ones are now only about 6-7 years old. And probably most of them were originally sold to ammies because of their nice dispositions.

I think maybe a lot of this goes back to our training issues in that we don't have a good network of young horse trainers in this country. Our youngsters are just now beginning to get out in the show world and just now beginning to win at something beyond training level.

I don't think that starting a new sporthorse breeders organization will help. We are already too isolated from riders and trainers. Look at Dressage at Devon. There are hardly any spectators at the breed show.

Something happened this year, though. The Federation of North American Sporthorse Registries offered $20,000 in prize money to the winners of the 5 and 6 Year Old FEI Young Horse Competitions! Riders from the Performance Division sat up and took notice of the fact that (gasp!!!) competitors in the Breed Show Division had higher prize money than they did!! (gasp!!!)

How about this guys. You want to be pro-active??? How about throwing prize money at young horse competitions??? How about sponsoring classes for prize money for 3 Year Old Materiale Classes, for 4 and 5 Year Old Materiale Classes and for ANY 5 and 6 Year Old FEI Young Horse Competition?? If you can't do it on your own (I can't - at least not for enough money to make it worth a trainer's or rider's time to watch the class) then do it by your local Dressage GMO, do it by region, send money to the Federation of North American Sporthorse Registries SPECIFICALLY earmarked for prize money for young horse competitions. The Championship at Devon this year was limited to American born horses and the add on futurity money was limited to members of the Federation.

Any show can hold young horse classes, I believe USAE/USEF has specific rules about the number of horses that have to be in a class before prize money can be distributed. This will require some advertising BEFORE entry deadlines to draw entries, but this can all be done on a local/regional level and be VERY effective WITHOUT starting up new organizations and all the headaches and heartaches that involves. Plus I think it will lead to further isolatation rather than integration. It wouldn't even require an awful lot of coordination, but money is honey and it draws the flies!!!

Sheila O'Keefe
Tranquility Farm
Charles Town, WV

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[This message was edited by Tiki on Dec. 24, 2003 at 09:10 AM.]

[talloaks]

Tiki, unfortunantely, once again the breeder is the one to spend more money!! How much can they afford to put down this bottomless pit, hoping in a pipe dream that the pros will all of a sudden think our horses are what they want to buy???

I don't think I see the justification for our spending more money, just to see our riders showing our horses at Devon, while the pros are off on the continent buying horses!! JMHO FWIW

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

[mbp]

How many young riders do you really think wanted to get European buying info for young horses? I don't really know - but the Young Riders I have known, when they wanted to go to Europe horse shopping, were looking for PSG or almost there horses.

Also, while we are decrying, as breeders, the fact that we don't have a lot of good young horse "starters", don't you think that may well carry over to the young riders who probably want something that is up and going and that they can do something with WHILE they are still Young Riders? There is definitely more to pick from in Europe. So I can both understand that they might want to know more about it (and BTW - how many BREEDERS would jump all over other breeders who went and imported bloodstock?) and I don't know that it is a young horse issue that breeders should feel so directly concerned over.

But it is just one more of those things that indicates that US Breeders NEED a national organization that is looking out of them.

Tiki - I think some funding for classes is not a bad idea. But we don't have a good organizational front to channel that funding through. FNASHR is not bad, but let's be up front - it does not include GOV (a fair sized registry) or AWS or AWR and there may be others I am missing. It does not include the QH/TB cross breeder who has been breeding for hunters for years. It does not include a chunk of ponies - although it would have representation for the ones in the ISR/OldNA program. But there are a lot of gaps and divides.

We need an organization for all sporthorse breeders. One that can then set up regional branches, like USDF did with GMOs. USDF did not get to where it is by saying it was only for WB riding dressage riders, or only Competitors, or only FEI and above, or ... It included a wide base of the people who were interested in seeing dressage thrive. Breeders need a similar organization - one that includes and represents a broad base of breeders who are breeding for the sporthorse industry and who have similar concerns.

In the other thread, I sketched out some ideas, but I think that having such an organization put together it's own shows for young horses, that would get away from the redundancies and expenses of USDF and USEF recognition, but would provide opporturnities for young horses to get out, would be a great way to go. Stock from breeders who are a member is eligible for prize $$, but the shows are open to all young stock initially. Trying to put together prize $$ would be a focus, and you know - the independent registries could put in sweeteners for their registered horses. But the fact that the stock are eligible, in the RIDER'S hands, for $, as long as the breeder was a member, would help create interest. The shows could be truly geared for young horses, maybe 3-5 or 3-6.

The national organization could pull out the thumbscrews for USDF, USEF, and all the registries, to create a one number system. It would not be a creation of the registries, or the NGB, it would be a creation of the BREEDERS with its loyalty, not to the registries or the NGB, but to the BREEDERS. The regional branches could get breeders working together on shows, training centers, etc. The national organization can work with the other entities on the database issues and will be able to report directly to the breeders - here is what they are doing, here is why it will/won't work, here is what they need to do, or HEY - they won't even work with us - HERE IS WHAT WE AS AN INDUSTRY NEED TO DO. They can work with shows, again through the local GMO type branches in particular, to say - HEre is the way you local and national breeders groups would like to have Breeding information provided in the show. MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE than some intermittent complaints.

I also think the national organization should offer testing that is not registry specific. Mare Performance and 3/4yo young horse Riding Quality testing. The type of testing with which good BLUP indices can be generated. IF the registries still need and want to do their own - fine. But the density and economics are not in their favor as much, and the fact that a stallions progeny are very likely to be spread over several registries here in the US would make the registry specific results much less informative than if we began to generate the info for the broad base. Also, riders are not going to haul across 6 states to get to the spread out registry testings. But if there are multiple local Riding Quality testings, with some incentives to go (maybe have some awards, do a trade fair with them, offer some seminars that riders would be interested in as well) then it may be that not only breeders with their unsold young stock, but also riders, would participate. THAT is how you get the numbers and the numbers are what give you worthwhile information and feedback.

If a Hann stall, also approved for GOV and ISR/OldNA, and eligible with SWANA if used on SWANA mares, covers 35 mares, spread over the 4 registries, and each registry only offers 3 or 4 mare performance tests - SPREAD OVER THE COUNTRY, and only 1 or 2 even offer riding horse testing, how are you ever going to get that stallions offspring to tests and without that, you have very little info on what the stallion is putting on the ground until the stallion has real age on him. We need more and better information, sooner not later.

The regional training centers and riding horse testing etc. too bring the regional breeders together and expose them to the stallions in their own backyards as well. The national organization could also send out surveys for information like what $$ members are paying for training, what $$ are being generated in sales of what horses (we need some way of getting industry sale information for lots of reasons), what bloodlines members feel are underrepresented, what issues are facing breeders for things like semen shipment and protocols, etc. The national org could also put together a network of regional websites that link to national, some young horse trainers lists, some reproductive specialists vetrinary lists etc., in a liability insulated fashion.

We need a national, inclusive organization.

[LLDM]

Hi Guys - Glad to see we are still thinking, after a brief interuption! I do think we need our own org., however, I hate to reinvent the wheel from scratch. I think USDF, US??/AHSA or their ilk are not really about what we need (even though it would be in their long term best interests). The breed orgs. have their own issues too.

I would love to affiliated with with an NGB for a number of reasons. Especially one who would be interested in a Young Horse Trainers Program! Soooo, how about the USCTA? Of all the groups in the country, we may just have the most in common with them! And frankly, eventers are a pretty good, pretty real bunch. I trust my youngsters to an eventing trainer. They get awesome basics accros the board. If they show a talent for dressage, jumping, whatever, then it is noticed and encouraged. And frankly, eventers are the only other group of people I know other than breeders who will notice a problem with a horse before they climb on it. They are hard core in a way and you know what, so are breeders. We both know the meaning of hard work for little glory and taking the time a horse needs to come along right!

If anyone could and would be good at developing a young trainers program it would be the USCTA. They might see some real value in it. They might also work with the US Pony Club's in a Graduate type program. There may be some real synergy here.

They may even be amenable to adding 3 to 5 year old "material" type "classes" to their eventing venues. Very baby stuff for young horses! I would sponcer that!

The more I think about this concept, the more sense it makes to me. They already have an org with a structure we could emulate. They might think our ideas, horses, and philosphies are worth while.

If our groups could work together getting our nice young horses going and out and seen with their young trainers it could really work! They are also really starting to "get" the amatuer market.

A young horse coming out of early training with a great general eduacation could go to market or to "Grad School" in Dressage, Jumpers, Hunters, whatever.

Give this some thought and let me know what you all think. In no way does this mean we give up other avenues. There are awesome ideas here. My concern is that no one else seems to have our interests in their main sites.

Think about it!

SCFarm (waiting for Santa to bring me my coal http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif )

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Mostly Harmless

[ise@ssl]

Well we should all write to the registries we work with individually and ALSO the Federation of North American Sporthorse Regitries&gt; I feel strongly that the FEDERATION should have a much louder voice in all of this&gt;

ALSO let's be honest. Our Young Riders program is just that RIDERS. In Europe they focus on making their young equestrians - BEREITERS. BIG BIG BIG DIFFERENCE. The Europeans ride many horses - all shapes sizes ages, etc. While I'm sure there are exceptions - here in the US - it's not that way. In fact, for years we used to refer the the YOung Riders as the "Millionaire Girls Club". It seems we have more than a few who just head to Europe for an upper level horse to make sure the ribbons and scores will be there for them. Very, few bring along young horses. It was rather impressive to see that young German gal do so well at the Zada Show in Fla last month at G.P. on a horse she trained herself.

I feel my money would be better spent through my dues to the various organizations on training programs for bereiters and not to subsidize the Young Riders to show and train with top people on THEIR HORSE. It may allow one or two to do very well but it is a vertical system not a horizontal system that strengthens the entire riding program. I'll put my flame suit on now.

[dray]

Joining you in the flame suit. Vertical markets for horses...absolutely. I keep jumps up all the time and jump the dressage horses a few days each week for fun...for both of us. I also think riders need to ride all kinds of horses under all kinds of conditions. In addition to dressage, various breed shows, endurance, eventing, trail, open shows, jumping....I agree with ise@ssl, it takes a lot of exposure to become a true equestrian. I can't have an impact like Lendon, but I can do what I can. My daughter got a three year old half Cob pony mare when she was seven to bring along. The mare is a Kent Churchchime daughter and was started very well by her breeder and was a perfect match for my daughter. She has been riding since she was two and started on an oversize mini and moved to my retired Arabian gelding before the pony mare. We often school and play "follow the leader" with the horses and add new puzzles for her pony that way. She's logging lots of show miles in hunters and dressage and open shows. When she gets her ribbons, she earns them and is often the youngest person in her class. She's learnign the process. and it is a process. She spends time in the barn every day with me, does chores at night and really does already have a clue about breeding and respect for young horses. She watches me when I start a young horse and eventually, will probably want to do that as well, but I worry about that one. She has an instructor that she rides with a few times a month and rides other horses for fun at her instructors farm as well. Riding many types of horses is important to earning a key to the mind of the horse in general. I don't think as a rider, that you can ever know what to expect if you ride just one or two horses. I think you need to ride hundreds of them. I know that it has helped me, often learning lessons the hard way. Sigh.

In short, I guess I am saying that I also agree that I would be more likely to want to participate in a program that produced very good generalists, and didn't seem to focus on producing future DQs... a millionaire's club program or whatever the phrase was. When you work with a young horse, you don't really know for sure what it's job is going to be when it grows up unless you give it an opportunity to "choose" so to speak.

This shouldn't remain the elitist sport that it is. By this, I guess I mean dressage.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, I'm going in late to work today &lt;KT yawns and stretches lazily. Hohum.&gt;

So here are my thoughts, for what they're worth &lt;not much, KT&gt;

First. Yes, I agree. We need a national organization to promote ... whatever it is we decide we want to promote. I am going to toddle off on to the internet over the next couple of days and see what kind of government support there is for this.

Please. Readers. There are two questions that need to be considered and answered by EVERYONE.

1. Is it realistic to think people can put aside their registry bias to support something like this?

2. We are going to have to come up with a "plan of action" -- what, where, when, why, how. How many of you are actually going to have time to contribute?

And will SOMEONE, please, contact Janine Malone and direct her towards this thread? If one woman can start what she did, we could use her input on how to get this rolling.

BTW, isn't it great that we've got somewhere to go to discuss all this stuff? CoTH, thank you so very much. You guys are really making a contribution.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[TKR]

It seems to me that the "domestic" breeders have made a statement and a clamor and their voices should certainly be heard by the organization (USDF) that represents us. In addition, I would hope that both the USDF and Lendon Gray (as the USDF is it's members, collectively and individually)can be flexible on this issue and rethink their program and understand that they represent the breeders as well as the young riders. It should not be too difficult to find a middle ground that would actually expand the proposed program to include the domestic breeders as well as foreign in an educational program. It's a disservice to the YR's as much as the breeders to eliminate any options that might help both. Buying a horse, whether local or abroad, is essentially looking for the same primary things as well as personal taste. Those can be applied to the home-breds as well as the foreign breds and this program could do wonders for enlightening riders/buyers about what is available here and how eager the breeders are to meet their needs. Perhaps it would be more progressive than we could imagine for a better understanding between the breeders and riders, thus improving the interests of both. Lendon, USDF --- you really don't need to take a "hard line" or be rigid on this issue. We deserve to be included!
Penny Garzarek
The Krugerrand Run Thoroughbred Farm
Columbiana, AL

[mbp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It seems to me that the "domestic" breeders have made a statement and a clamor and their voices should certainly be heard by the organization (USDF) that represents us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the thing is, USDF does not represent the US breeders. It represents its GMOs and individual members, who are primarily riders. What USDF did was start a ball rolling with the Cosequin series and with putting together a sporthorse breeders committee, when no one else was really doing anything. But their mandate is not to represent US Breeders. They tried to pick up some pieces and do what they can, but they aren NOT the national organization to represent US Breeders.

I like the brainstorming, but I don't think that trying to bootstrap off the USCTA would work as well as either starting a new organization or bootstrapping off of USDF restructuring to have Breeders GMO or FNASHR.

I do agree about event riders being possibly our best resource for young horse trainers, for many reasons. But we USCTA is, again, going to have its primary emphasis be the riding members, it has a disconnect with some of the more lucrative sales venues (hunter and dressage), it is already fairly embroiled with FEI issues re: continuation as an Olympic sport and has some major issues to deal with on its own, etc.

Of course, if we had a separate org there is no reason why it could not network with USCTA for a trainers program, USDF for educational programs and judge training, the IHJF for hunter networking, USEF for the 5 & 6yo young horse testings, etc. It would not be "beholding" to any of those entities though.

For me, pros and cons of existing orgs would be:

1. USCTA - above
2. USEF - it is primarily an organization for riders and this will be even more focused through the reorganization to it being an organization for Olympic riders; it is secondarily an organization of organizations, so that to get any specific input, vote, etc. - you need an organization; it does have the authority to institute requirements - like a one number requirement, that USDF and the registries would pretty much have to follow if it were dictated.
3. USDF - an organization of primarily riders and GMOs, with the GMOs being primarily representative of riders. It has been a very flexible and expansive organization, and it has already put together programs like the Cosequin series when no one else was doing much, but a lot of sporthorse breeders are breeding for hunter/jumper or even driving, eventing, etc.; and USEF "votes" and appointments that would be generated through USDF would be split with/among the riding base of the organization.

4. FNASHR - Might be a logical starting point. I has already pulled off getting quite a few registries to work together for things like the Devon $$ and the stallion testing. However, it is a Federation of "REGISTRIES" not breeders, and so is responsive to the registry members. Several registries do not allow any voting input from the breeder members, so they have no input, even indirectly, in how "their" registry participates with or through the FNASHR. Also, a big cornerstone of the FNASHR has been ISR/OldNA and Brysch. While I give them credit for getting something like this up and going and recognize the benefits of it - GOV is still a big registry. They are currently not a participant and they are not as likely to be a participant IMO with the current structure. The structure is also set up to pretty much on its face exclude registries like AWR or AWS or sporthorse breeders who, for example, focus on Morgans for driving, or AQHA/TB or AQHA/wb crosses for hunters, etc. DO we really need something else that is so beholden to registries that often don't allow for their own members to have any vote? I think it could be restructured, as, say, the FNASHB(B=Breeders) and maybe have a great impact.

5. Starting from scratch - it is always HORRIBLY difficult to start from scratch, but you do get something that, from its inception, is geared to the needs of the breeders community and is set up, from the beginning, to be responsive to its constituency.

[LLDM]

FYI - from the USEA (USCTA) website, under goals!

"The introduction of the Young Event Horse Series and Championships aimed at offering riders, breeders and owners an opportunity to showcase the top event horses of the future. The potential for discipline crossover is great as members of other equestrian associations realize the value of this "shop window" for their breeding stock. Organizers will have an opportunity to increase revenues by holding an additional competition involving less investment on their part but offering greater return due to the number of people who are expected to participate."

See This Link (http://www.eventingusa.com/about/strategic.htm)

At least they see the bigger picture!

They are also starting up an Instructers Certification Program.

From what little I know, these guys are really trying to get some really good stuff going. I am not saying to try and be a part of the USEA. I think they may be our best hope of mentoring and supporting our efforts. I'm sorry, the USDF just doesn't seem to want to get it.

I may be talking about something different from the rest of you all. I need young horse trainers with clout. This is the only way I can forsee keeping it in this country.

The alternative is to go to Germany and import the BEREITERS! While this has a certain tit-for-tat appeal http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , the concept really bothers me. We do have young horse trainers, many from Germany that work for large breeders full time. It just doesn't solve the problem "in country" as it were.

The problem, again, is money, standards and clout! My thought was if we go to the USEA (USCTA) and say we are the breeders, this is our problem, lets do a pilot program using your org. and young trainers, our young horses, some visiting Bereiters and standards stolen from Germany or the British Horse Society or somebody and give it a shot - THEY would be the most likely to say WOW, that might work for all of us!

Even if the pilot program is 16 horses, 2 young USEA trainers and two Berieters for 60 days with trainers sleeping in my basement and culminating with the horses going to a small local horse trials with a special "dedicated" pilot baby division, I vote we go for it! I can write a press release with the best of 'em! I would flood every publication I know with info, beg them to write articles, cover the competition and follow up. Maybe even have a sale at the end. It would be a start.

I just don't think the USDF, USAEq, USEF or any or all of the registry orgs would care. IMHO.

BTW - I will give whatever time, effort and energy needed to make this stuff go.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[mbp]

Don't get me wrong - I agree that event riders have the best background and approach. They know more horse care, are tougher, more used to dealing with a greater range of horses, more used to making their own, etc. - but really, they are a little behind the other organizations with their young horse program (I am aware of it and have been watching). The Jumpers and Dressage camps already have programs in place. And USDF has had instructor certification and judges training for a long time. I wouldn't say they don't "get it" bc they started a lot of the programs we currently do get some benefit from - including the Cosequin series. Rather, though, I would say that what we are getting is what we are likely to get with any entity that really has a different primary focus (be it eventing, jumping, hunters, dressage, developing Olympic riders, etc.) and is "doing us on the side".

E.g. when you say - this is "our" program, the breeders, but we don't have any one entity or organization to speak for us, then USEA has to mostly give it a big shrug. What breeders? Where? WHo? What funding? etc. That is why I think we need our own organization really. What I like about USDF is not so much using the entity, as usig the GMO approach, which I think would work really well for what is being discussed. But going to USEA THROUGH OUR OWN ORGANIZATION, and saying - hey, do you want to work on a program for training young horse trainers - I think that could be a good thing. Maybe have them show Prelim proficiency and some other "entrance" requirements, do several of the things that you mentioned with instructors, etc.

And more than takcing on pilot divisions to local horse trials, I would like to see the organization begin to offer overall young horse competitions, with maybe a novice or baby novice, some small jumping, some young horse dressage, and have these open to ALL young horses, from the training centers or members of the organization or not, but offer prize $$ that would only be for horses bred by member breeders, whether they are still owned by the member breeders or have been sold. This would operate as both a minifuturity type of series and every show would be, in part, a buying opportunity. It would accomodate all breeds. It would reward breeders of rideable horses of whatever registry. It would give the purchasers of the member's breeders some incentive, as they would be eligible for the prize $$ if the horse was bred by a member.

[siegi b.]

mbp - I think you're one of the few people that suggests keeping the two issues separate - the organization for breeders vs the young trainer program. In my mind that is the only way this even has a chance to happen.
Also, to think that the breeder organization could encompass all possible breed combinations simply because some mare owner decided to breed to the neighbor's stallion borders on the ridiculous. However, that is where most of the disagreements will come from. Take it a step further and have all these "different" horse types in one of these contemplated breed shows. How would you judge them in a fair manner? Wouldn't you have to have many, many different classes to accommodate everybody?
I'm playing devil's advocate but know that these will be issues that need to be addressed BEFORE you even come up with a business plan.
In my opinion it will probably be easier to come up with the regional riding/training centers than a national organization for breeders, simply because all breeders agree that they want their offspring trained. However, I don't see them agreeing on much of anything when it comes to governing horse breeding on a national level.
Just my 2 cents worth...

[LLDM]

siegi b. - I don't think that breeders could or should start a young horse trainers program. Unfortunately, no one else has, or seems to see it as a priority. That's my interest in the eventers as I think they are the most likely to do it and the most qualified.

We can have our own org., but what would be the main purpose? I, personally, don't care for breed shows, as I don't think they are good predicters of performance and they don't seem to actually sell anything, except to other breeders (which is fine). We have enough of those already IMHO.

So, that said, what do we, as US (or NA) Breeders want and need?

1) A way to get our young horses trained
2) A way to get our young horses seen
3) A way to get our young horses sold
4) A way to get credit when our horses do well (recognition)
5) Respect and cooperation from the NGB's, the Breed Societies, and whoever else

1,2&3 I consider the Breeder/Trainer problem, hence my thoughts on working with the USEA (eventers) through their membership (and hopefully trainers program) and competition venues or trainer programs like regional centers, student exchange programs or whatevfer else we could work out. Sales, thru auctions, open houses, sales fests etc. could follow from these programs and may work when others fail because it would give people a apples to apples look at prospects. We need the standard of training.

For example: All these 3 (or 4 or 5) yos have been started the same way, have these basic skills and had a competition/evaluation by third party (say, eventing young horse trainers and/or judges). Here they are, on their merits, in one place. Pick the one you like.

We do need the credibility of an existing group for 1, 2 & 3, IMHO. Not part of it, but in a symbiotic relationship. Maybe I keep using "affiliated" wrong, but this is what I mean.

4 & 5 would require a national org. as suggested, which would need to be independent, representative and volentary. It would also need to work with all the aforementioned groups and play nice. I would be nice if we could get the Horse ID number part of the equation. I vote for doing a microchip program. It makes sense on so many levels.

I am hoping to clarify some of this discussion. I hope this helps.

Does this sum it up?

BTW - I still like the website idea for trainers and breeders to find each other. It could also be a "find a prospect site", a place to promote ourselves and a place to track our youngsters.

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[dray]

I think we have two separate issues. The USDF and other organizations seem to be doing plenty for young riders. Breeders are an entirely different special interest group.

I also would not trust a novice to start my horses under saddle. The horses are too valuable and it takes a lot of time, miles under the saddle and experience to gain the kind of wisdom I think you need to start young horses well.

I think we need to keep the issues separate...young riders vs. young horses.

I also want to go on record that I support young riders. I make my horses available to my daughter's horseless friends and my daughter is a very serious rider as well (fortunatley for her, with her Father's lat name since I kept my maiden name). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I don't jump the young horses until their knees are closed, so I don't know about the eventing thing. I see my horses going dressage, show jumping and a few to hunter programs.

[LLDM]

Dray - Not - Young horsetrainers, but Younghorse trainers (like the Bereiters). I mean a program to vet the trainers who specialize in starting horses, but don't do big shows and stuff. They could be 23 or 53, I don't care as long as they know what their doing.

Also eventers are great at bring horses along slowly with very customized programs. THATS why I like them so much. They take their time and don't PUSH too hard. They also think all horses should know how to ride out, do caveletti, step in mud, etc. They do a great BASIC education of all horses at the appropriate level for age, condition and experience.

What I want is a Bereiter program using the eventers so these youngsters get exposed to a variety of things and disciplines, not just dressage.

I want the program so we have a way to evaluate the people who would start our kids and a way for buyers to be assured that the horses had certain basics from reputable people. If that can be leveraged to provide some working student opportunities for the youngtrainers to learn in also, great! But I do not want kids starting my young horses either!

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[alexandra]

Rather longish, but a view from an outsider:


Bereiter program ?
Here I have to jump in again.
There does not exist something as such !!! The "Pferdewirt Zucht und Haltung" or "Pferdewirt Reiten" are the names of the professions you are learning. We in Germany have a very specific system for job education. People either go to University/College or they "learn" a job. Learning a job/profession means that you work for 3 years for a company that is allowed because of a certain qualification to school apprentices. The young people have to go to a (state) school once a week (or a few weeks in one piece each year). There they get the theoretical background of what they learn during the week in a training on the job. So when you learn Pferdewirt you are just with other youngsters in one class learning the same. They have two exams with theoretical and practical parts. One in the middle of the three years and one at the end. This system is not only for what you call Bereiters and officially is called Pferdewirt Reiten. It is for all professions be it electrician, decorator whatever. So much for a little explanation of our educational system.

A Pferdewirt Reiten learns how to train horses. This profession is not "to train younghorses" in general. It depends highly on what the farm the young people are learning at is offering to clients. If it is training of young horses, people learn that. If the farm has a riding school, kids maybe learn more how to train other kids and how to correct the schooling horses. If it is a jumping barn, you learn more of that.
You would not be able to establish such a system because your educational system does not work the same way.
Back to your suggestion of an organisational approach of the initial problem. There have been the discussions on the horsenumber lately and there are now discussions on educating young riders and on how to get the young horses effectively sold and trained. For all of these problems the suggestions made by somebody were "we need a new organisation". You have already so many organisations that it is hard to believe.
In my eyes this should all be managed by one organisation. And to make it simple this should be the official branch of the FEI. They could issue numbers to each and every horse that is born so that tracking them would be easier (Issuing of the number for free, if the horse is supposed to compete an annual fee for competition registration). They can supervise and invent some sort of course or training for people to get an official profession in the horsebusiness, that is not theoretically based as in the colleges. (The profession Pferdewirt Zucht und Haltung e.g. is supposed to teach people the needs and things involved in breeding horses and keeping them – therefore a farm teaching them has to have at least 5 broodmares or one breeding stallion !)
There was one comment already: money makes the world go round.
I know that it is expensive but it is really the easiest way to raise money for a program that you design (be it training of young riders or a competition serie for young horses). Try to get through to the head of the USDF organisation, present such a program and together with the financial solution for it and the staff who could do it and try to have them give their name for it.
You could also design clinics that they offer and some of you hold in your local area. Clinics on evaluating a horse, what to look for when buying a horse, is breeding/pedigree important for me when buying a horse…
Everybody can do his her bit in improving the riding and the general knowledge, not just on a private base such as dray is describing.
The breeding registries should also work together with the USDF. Their profit would be: if they inform the USDF which horses where born or newly presented into their breeding books they can get information at the year end on the performance of all the horses of the registry and use that in their work.
You all have great ideas, so why not get together under an existing roof and work on it either with donating money, organising one (or more) program that consist all of what you think is needed or teaching in it. I am sure if you work together and try to invent something and already have a plan and money for it, you can find the officials at any organisation to support you.
Why not inventing a competition type, where the young riders do not just have to ride (and where not the horse but the ability of rider is judged). The riders have along with riding pass some theoretical test e.g. on horse colors, the names of markings, health issues (what would be a sign that your horse might have a colic ?), parts of the saddle, parts of the body of a horse and on and on. Some of you can start on making a question book for such competition, some of you can do fund raising and some can volunteer as judges others can try to find shows that would want to have such competition in their program….
If you do things and get involved with the regular competition and education of riders, they get to know you – the breeders- and in the end the first question might be “do you have a horse that suits my needs ?” This is a long way to go, but there can be done much in my eyes.

And maybe interesting: I would guess that in Germany at least 80% of the young horses are started by people being 16 to 30 years old. The big farms offering training of young horses let the apprentices (or their young employees) do the job. The trainer that gives the reputation to the barn seldom rides the horse himself. Only if it has a certain quality and after it has learned the basic things as going round in walk, trot, canter and is ready for material classes the big name rides it.

Alexandra


I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

http://alexandra-fischer.privat.t-online.de

[Laurie@CBF]

We already have a Young Rider competition that Alexandra speaks of. There are dressage equitation classes as well as lots of "knowledge" classes. Horses are provided for those who have to travel far. The organizer is Lendon Gray.

I agree with Alexandra that we have too many organzations as it is. We need to start asking for more from these organizations (USDF, breed org's).

Something that would benefit US breeders is to have an "informational/lobby" organization - just like what we have started here on the COTH BB. It would be a "watchdog" on the various riding disciplines of major interest. Relevant information (positive or negative) can be disseminated to the SHB - and then collective feedback (like here) could be discussed. Then there would be some 'strength' in numbers in the groups reply. Even if it was still left for individuals to reply - like the Snowflake idea.

I think that many of us have gone along just pointing ourselves in a direction that we thought we should be going. If you are independently wealthy that is fine. That is not the case with most NA breeders. It is time for us to take a more "pro-active" role in some of the programs we want to see. The young horse championships (Dressage, Eventing etc) will be vital to the NA breeding economy. Without donating/sponsoring $$ - there are still many things that can be done to strengthen these championships. This would include helping find sponsors, drumming up "continual" PR, finding out ways to make these championships more spectator friendly, entering a young horse in the championships, etc.

Participation and "getting the word out" are my two goals for this year.

[LLDM]

Alexandra - Thanks for the info! I've been searching the net looking for how that works. No wonder I couldn't find anything!

As for too many orgs, I do agree. But the ones we have are focused away from us, the breeders or are breed specific and represent other countries for the most part.

We need some way to focus on the young horses. This country is so big it is almost impossible to deal just on reputation. Even BNTs (big name trainers) can get away with bad practices (there are other threads on this board). I know there are some bad apples and all, but it scares the @#$# out of me to send a horse out to someone I can't keep tabs on.

I asked in another thread, where does the USEF think breeders should be? I am tired of being an after thought in everyone elses org. Would the USEF want or care for a "young horse prospects" program? Everyone else is focused on the riders! Maybe these horses wouldn't need to be drugged to compete if they were doing what they liked and were suited to do. I hate the idea of saying "this weanling will do dressage," without ever giving it a chance to show talent in something else.

Honestly, I do not know what the answer is, I just know what the needs are. A good, solid, recognized system to bring our prospects along. Doesn't this benefit everyone? What is so hard about the concept for all the orgs to understand? It is a huge gapping hole in this country/continent.

BTW - I have tried to go the Futurity route. I was very disappointed. I thought that the young horses were so over prepared and often overfaced and over ridden. Mostly this is because the competitions are very vertical (jumping, dressage, etc.).

my latest 2 cents

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[TKR]

We seem to be getting away from the initial subject of the USDF sponsoring a program dedicated to buying young horses in Europe. One poster commented that the USDF doesn't represent the breeder, only the riders. I have to say that many breeders are also riders or support riders with their stallions or young horses. Considering how many breeders there are who are also members of USDF and paying dues, thereby supporting the USDF, I think they must support and represent the breeders. Before we jump into all these programs to promote and market our young horses, we should stick to the issue of expanding the USDF program for buying young horses to include the US or North America. JMHO!
PSG

[LLDM]

TKR - You are correct. That's where this started. My feeling, at this point in the thread is that the USDF has done as much as they are willing to do for us and that they think we need to do the rest ourselves. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my impression.

My current position, as a dues paying USDF member, is to rethink that before I pay dues this year. I don't think breed shows accomplish what I need. I would rather put my money behind some group who has my issues front and center. Or at least sees a bigger picture where my issues matter and contribute to their goals.

So the question is, "Can breeders and young horse owners count on the USDF?" And, "Does the USDF want to be involved with us?"

It seems we are willing to organize and promote ourselves in creative ways. I can understand, to a certain extent, that they don't like being B$#@%ed at. But are they open to us in general if we are positive, helpful and creative?

Please, someone who is more knowledgable than I, give us a clue. I have no idea what they (USDF) are thinking at this point. My reaction has been, "hey, they don't care, lets move on."

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[Oldenburg Mom]

TKR -

The two subjects, I think, an inextricably linked, mostly (probably?) by the frustration of so many breeders. They are frustrated as they are constantly criticized as "not having a good enough product" hence the USDF type of "buying horses in Europe" ; yet, they can't get their horses, economically, to market.

Add to that the enormity of the contiguous US states (vs. Europe) and frankly, I'm surprised anyone has the courage to breed.

Dray made a brilliant observation on page 4 -

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I also would not trust a novice to start my horses under saddle. The horses are too valuable and it takes a lot of time, miles under the saddle and experience to gain the kind of wisdom I think you need to start young horses well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So WHO is going to do the job?

*sigh* I'm just as frustrated as the breeders out there ...

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[dray]

As long as I'm physically fit, I'll start my own. That's one reason I got into breeding to begin with...to have "great wheels" so to speak!

I think there are other breeders who are riders as well.

[mbp]

Siegi - I don't know why you think I believe that a training program for young horses/training centers/training certification should be separate from a unified national organization for breeders of sporthorses?? I will say that I do think we need one unified group for sporthorse breeders, and yes, that would even include IRD/X, AQHAx etc if their breeders are breeding for sporthorses. I am not saying that the national organization should be instead of the registries, if that is your concern. But it should be an organization that allows for regional breeders groups that are inclusive of, not just NA/WPN, or AHS, or GOV, etc. breeders, but of all the regional breeders who are breeding for sporthorses. In general, if they are a breeder whose money the industry would take for shows, then yes, I think they should be able to have an organization that represents them.

Alexandra - We do have too many orgs. As an example, you were talking about going through our FEI wing, but then also talking about USDF. USDF is not our FEI representative. It is USEF (formerly USAEq formerly AHSA). The problem with going through USEF is that we have some overlays that you do not have with the FN. First and foremost, the new structuring requires that the primary focus of the USEF be international athletes. So there is a lot of representation for the riding/driving. Secondarily, the way our FEI wing generated originally is that it was, in essence, a group of affiliated horse shows. AHSA - American Horse Shows Association. It then evolved, but in this country there have always been a tremendous number of types and kinds of horses and horse shows. So the emphasis was not on the olympic or international equestrian sports, but rather on the shows that had the most entries. To develop a focus on the international equestrian sports, we had to start other organizations. This is where our USDF (United States Dressage Federation) and USEA (formerly USCTA - United States Eventing Association) etc. started. We did not have a national entity that promoted these areas. So these organizations were formed and began to take on that function for their sports. They then became "affilates" of the USEF, which gave them some representation on the board, but really they were and continue to be the entities that promote the sports. The national organization does not very much, and that does not seem like it will change in the restructure.

RE: USDF - I didn't say they only represent riders, but rather that they represent their membership and it is primarily riders. So the breeders, as a group, even though members, will not have priority. Really, I think we do have to realize that USDF stepped into the breach and at least began to give breeders SOMETHING. The Cosequin series was not initiated by registries, by USEF, by local breeders groups. It is something that USDF really spearheaded, even though they did not have any duty to do that. I do think that something could be done through USDF as an option. WIth separate Breeders GMOs, and separate breeders participating memberships. USDF could spin off a USBF or find a way to mesh the two. The problems would be that USDF is fairly removed from the hunter breeders who would be a backbone in many areas of regional breeders groups.

[LLDM]

All right everybody who is reading this thread:

Get thee to THIS THREAD (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=861603921) and weigh in. Anyone concerned enough to wade through to this point should share their good ideas for the new concept which has been proposed based on this and a couple of other Breeder/Trainer/Young Horse discussions here on CoTH.

Thanks for your comments, keep them coming!

BTW - Did anyone else from the USDF ever comment?

SCFarm

Mostly Harmless

[Laurie@CBF]

I got a reply to my letter! It pretty much "stated" that I was "misinformed" and that the course in no way excluded US breeders from the discusion. Sorry - didn't realize I had an invite to show up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif.

Does anyone know how we can get a course schedule or outline for this Advanced Young Riders Graduate Program?

I am considering a reply - once I can find out how things were titled.

[Sporthorse South]

Once again, I am still wading through all the various posts on this thread and others, but thought I would offer this:

A local young dressage professional stopped by the barn the other day. I've known this girl since she was a junior rider, and she is now trying to get her own business going - buying, selling, training, etc. She commented that she has recently started going to Germany to shop, as she cannot EASILY find suitable prospects for either herself or her clients here in the U.S. - she basically came by to pick our brains on good and reputable people to do business with in Germany. She stated that she has spent almost 5 months looking for a horse for one particular client, has spent countless hours on the phone and viewed dozens of video tapes, but she could not find a suitable horse here in North America - yet she found THREE meeting her exact criteria for age, level of training, temperament, and price at ONE sales barn in Germany.

Her experience mirrors our own. We have been searching for 3-6 months for 1) a Y/R dressage prospect; 2) a quiet, dependable, SOUND, A/A dressage & low-level hunter prospect; 3) a confirmed 4th Level, ready to go PSG A/A prospect; 4) a big (16.2+) Hunter Equitation prospect for a teen; 5) a quiet, easy-going low-level hunter & dressage prospect for another teen; and 6) a solid FEI approved warmblood stallion. In all that time, we have only found ONE horse that satisfied us and the client enough for a deal to actually occur (#5, the low-level hunter/dressage prospect for one of our teen students). Everything else we have looked at has either been unsuitable by temperament, soundness, ability, level of training, and/or PRICE. So, unfortunately for U.S. breeders & sellers, we are off to Germany in a few weeks, where we have already lined up 3-4 horses in each category to try within a 3-day time frame. It sure would be nice if we could find this many suitable prospects within a 1-2 hour drive of each other here in North America!

[Oldenburg Mom]

I say again, what I said on a previous thread ...

What this country needs is a fee-based sales web site, specifically for under five year old horses, regardless of registry.

It could have videos of horses, much like the stallion videos on some of the Germany web sites. We could therefore have a central place for sellers to post and buyers to search. AND, if we really wanted to do it right, we could have it "authorized" "sanctioned" or "approved" or "somethingorothered" by the USEF, USDF and any other "F" you could think of.

By the way, Sporthorse South, if you ARE looking for a yearling (?) dressage prospect, I saw a humdinger with a 16K price tag that I would have paid in a heartbeat (if I'd had the cash.) Don't remember if it was a filly or a colt, but OMGiH, what a stunner. Oh, and plus, Christine Quilling of Wildest Expectations Farm has a beauty, Ominous, that came in 2nd, USDF Hoy that is breathtaking.

OH, sorry. I just figured out Y/R is young rider. (Duh) Oh well. If you can't laugh at yourself you've got no sense of humour. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Laurie@CBF]

Sporthorse South - you are missing the point. The quality of horse is here - it is the training that is missing. Sending the Y/R off to Europe to "Leap Frog" over the initial training of young horse will just make the dressage riders even more dependent on Europe. If the training issues could be improved - you might just be able find those horses you are looking for in the US in a few years.

As someone who is a stallion owner I am surprised that you are so interested in sending your clients to Germany. Are you going to be shipping your stallions semen back to Germany?

PS - edited to add - one can say that in many situations one is either part of the problem or part of the solution. Those that don't feel it is neccessary to teach our young riders how to train a young horse - and thus must go to Europe to buy their horses are in the former group.

[Sporthorse South]

Laurie, I didn't say that the quality wasn't here, but as I have said before on other threads, we do not have the DEPTH of quality that the Germans, Dutch, etc., have. That is not a put-down of N.A. breeders, some of whom are doing their best to put foals on the ground that are the equal (or better) than those being produced in Europe - it is simply a statement of fact.

Actually, the lack of depth of quality is only part of the problem. As we have all been saying, the lack of a solid and well-established cadre of young horse trainers is a major issue here, but the intent of my post was to point out that our young professionals ARE ALREADY SHOPPING IN EUROPE - mostly for the same reasons that many other people are. Again, it is not easy to find what we want here, and it is really tough for a professional to make a living when they have to search for months and months and months to find ONE suitable horse for a client. Time is money for a busy professional, and there are only so many hours in the day for riding, teaching lessons, making phone calls, answering email, viewing video tapes, etc., etc.

I agree that we might be able to find the horses we are looking here for in a few years, but our clients won't wait a few years. If we can't find what they want - and soon - they will go elsewhere, and we can't afford to lose business. We already have one student who gave up trying to find something here and is currently shopping on her own in Holland. We are STILL contacting people here looking for a horse for her (in fact, have a video on its way here now of a U.S.-based horse that might be suitable for her), but she is tired of looking, tired of waiting, tired of chasing all over the country.

Look, I sympathize with the problems facing N.A. breeders. I am a breeder, too, with young horses of my own to sell, but if I don't have what a buyer wants, I have no problem with her going elsewhere to shop, and I don't care if it is down the street or halfway around the world. I don't expect people to buy my horses if they aren't suitable for them, nor do I expect my clients to buy only in the U.S. if we cannot EASILY find something suitable here.

Regarding our Y/R - she can't take the time to bring along a young horse. She is currently riding at 2nd- 3rd level and wants to move on, but her own young horse (purchased from a local breeder) was going to hold her back for several years. By the time she got the horse really going well, she would be out of the Y/R ranks. She may start working with some of our young horses at the barn, but she wants her OWN upper level horse to ride and show NOW - so that is what we are looking for.

[Sporthorse South]

Oh, OMOM, PT me about the yearling. I have a client that may be interested. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Done. Check your PTs SS.

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
KT
P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.

[Fairview Horse Center]

All of this proves that what we are missing is that "middle layer". Here, people keep telling the breeders to only breed one or 2 that they can afford to get started and show properly, but that still does not get them into the large group so buyers have that "one stop shopping" that they have in Europe. The "raisers" in Germany buy many each year from the breeders, so at training time, they have a group of similar age and training for you to choose from. "Raisers" are not putting in a lot of time on the youngsters while they grow, so they do have the time to devote to each group as they become ready to break and train. Breeders spend so much time handling Stallions, shipping semen, meeting vets for the mares and foals, foal watch, foal training, inspections, paperwork, etc. that there just is not the time to do the German "raiser's" job as well.

And it keeps coming back to the number buyers can see in one place. No matter how well started, the breeder is only going to have one or 2. We just have to be able to get them into one place - even for just a weekend. Maybe instead of trying to get the Regional training centers right away, we could just focus on a regional sales fest like the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian group does. If we could get a couple of hundred horses in various stages of training in one place for the weekend, would trainers come?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[blueboo]

As someone who is not a breeder, nor yet quite ready to become a buyer (I have two horses now), nor even (I sometimes think) much in the way of a rider, but as a serious looker, might I weigh in here for just a thought or two.
I have read every word on this thread and as a semi-educated outsider, I can see the points and problems facing you as breeders. The other side of the coin (and I truly have no real solution) is the potential and/or future buyer of your horses (young OR older). I've spent months lurking here and there on both this board and the dressage board, and checking out virtually every one of your farm link's at the bottom of your posts (to the point that I can tell if I've been somewhere before it even finishes loading), but with all my interest (and I have a LOT of interest) I have found it very difficult to find 'breeders' and/or farms (as opposed to individuals) with horses for sale anywhere else. With all of my looking, I believe that I have only run across one or two of your 'home' sites via any other avenue than these boards (and one of those links I ONLY found because I was trying very hard - and unsucessfully I might add - to track down some information on a stallion). No I may not be the brightest lightbulb in the marquee, but I AM very determined when I want and/or am interested in something, and if with all my knocking around the web, I haven't run across your websites, there's got to be something missing. I'm actually fairly dreading the time when I really AM shopping (in earnest rather than in a wandering around seeing what's there mode) simply because it IS so hard to pull out information. When I do finally get around to buying, I will, quite truthfully, have to concentrate my efforts to locations where I can see the most variety in the smallest geographical area - barring something quite extraordinary - simply because if I don't I won't have any money left to actually buy anything. I am not from 'old' (or new for that matter) money, I don't have numerous contacts in the 'horse' or 'show' or 'training' or 'breeding' world, and the only real sources of information I have about what's out there is the web and the few publications I get. The point, I'm trying to make, I guess, is perhaps you need exposure? I simply refuse to believe that I am the only individual in my basic position - who may very well want exactly what you are offering, but simply cannot find you?

Just a thought anyway.

[dray]

Darlyn,

This is one of the directions we see that we might be able to make some impact...regional showcases, young horse competitions, etc. Even if we are not affliated with one of the large existing agencies, we do have access to the schedule and can work at local farms when there is an event which will draw a crowd of potential buyers in an area.

Eventually a sanctioned internship program for young trainers, but first, the issue at hand seems to be getting the horses to market.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.sportequine.com (http://www.sportequine.com)
North American Sport Horse Breeders Association
www.nashba.com (http://www.nashba.com)


(..and please, no PETA people on my case...I have adopted and neutered and have a flurry of furry felines functioning fine...in and out of the house, I might add. They wisen that there are no barn cats and follow me up and down the hill like dogs.)

[mbp]

blueboo - I think you and OM have a similar take on that. It seems that a searchable site, like a dreamhorse or agdirect, that is for sporthorses and sportponies, and that maybe had something like a map with regions, and you can click on a region and also get farm links...?

I don'tjust see one problem, but a series of intertwined problems. The lack of unified exposure, the lack of regionally based opportunities to go and see horses, the lack of cost efficient trainers - but I see that as being also very tied in with the high cost of putting miles on a young horse. It just doesn't cost nearly the same amount (time as well as $$) to get some shows under a horse's belt, lack of regional networking of breeders (to organize the regional shows or regional sales dates or swap info on nearby trainers etc.) The problems feed on each other and tangle around each other.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Maybe we culd work on getting the USAE/USEF to include a comprehensive list of links on their website by state for breeders (by breed or Type?), trainers, services, etc for a small fee to cover the webspace.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Sporthorse South]

Not sure that sorting by breed is the best solution. Most of our RIDING clients don't care what breed a horse is - price, quality, level of training, and potential are far more important to them than breed. We've looked at Traks, Hanoverians, Oldenburgs, Westfalens, Dutch WBs, Swedish WBs, TBs, QHs, Draft crosses, etc., for our clients, and I would think that a database that could be sorted by any combination of discipline, age, and/or region might be more valuable for most shoppers.

[futurewin]

Sporthorse South PT me. I have a young horse for sale and lease/sale Made TB gelding that may suite your needs or clients.

**Maryland Clique**
Canada Dry
Presto
Fuerst Glance
Fuerst Angel

[lorik]

I just posted a similar note on the regional training center thread but I was hoping to get even more input from the breeders and competitors out there. For those of you breeders out there who are struggling for your well started horses to be seen, would a regional, well organized, well advertised, young horse showcase be of interest. I may be able to put something together, but would love to hear your thoughts on just what something like that should encompass. If we could come up with a format, I'd be willing to work with other regions and USDF/USEF to get similar things going. The sky's the limit, here folks. I'm thinking multi-diciplined.

Lori Kaminski

[Laurie@CBF]

Lori - do you work for USDF/USEF - or are you an "independent contractor"? I know that you do a fab job as breeding secretary at DAD.

[lorik]

Laurie,
I am an "independent contractor" so to speak. I have managed shows through FEI level since the early 1990's and when asked to do the Dressage at Devon work I agreed, knowing that had to be a better way to handle that daunting task. I also have experience with Combined Training and Combined Driving. I am in the process of setting up a show management company and have gotten USDF/USEF recognition for a new breed show on August 28 at Fair Hill in northern Maryland that will be part of the East Coast Series. I have contacts across the US that might be willing to help in this "regional showcase" sort of thing if we could get ideas on exactly what the "small" breeder needs and wants out of this sort of thing. I'm going to start a new thread on this subject.
Thanks for asking and thanks for the compliment.
Lori

[jemrph]

I have tried to read all posts in this and the related topics and I feel like I've read a book! I am a long-time member of the USDF Sport Horse Committee and current secretary of USDF, but I am not responding in an official USDF capacity.

I should also point out that I am a breeder, and have been for over 25 years. I certainly understand from a personal viewpoint the challenges and costs of breeding and especially marketing sport horses, most of whom are bred primarily for dressage.

Based on the brief information that was published in the Chronicle, I can understand that some people could perceive that the Grad YR program was promoting the purchase of horses in Europe vs. in the U.S. I did not attend the program, but from the more detailed reports I have read, I believe that the program was simply to give the pros and cons of finding and purchasing horses abroad vs. the pros and cons of finding and purchasing in the U.S. This is certainly not the first time such a program has been offered in the U.S., and it is entirely within the educational mission of USDF. I understand that the program was unbiased and informative. Personally, I believe that it is appropriate for such a program to address issues requested by the target audience, and I don't see this as a "threat" to me as a breeder because I know that there are many "cons" as well as "pros" to purchasing horses abroad. In my experience, the more knowledgeable potential buyers - and their trainers - are, the better they are to deal with. (Incidentally, the person who started the program is a successful hunter breeder.)

Regarding USDF---
It is true that USDF started mostly as a federation of local dressage clubs, but for any of you who read Jennifer Bryant's excellent historical account (November 2003, USDF Connection), you will remember that one of the first nine USDF committees, formed in 1973, was the "Breeders Committee". USDF intended from the beginning to track performance records for all mares and stallions whose offspring competed in dressage, but the HID number, that enables tracking of all horses, was only implemented a few years ago. With the HID and the new database, USDF now can provide complete data, which is essential to track performance.

USDF is a DEMOCRATIC organization with voting delegates that are nominated directly by its members. USDF members (including GMO members) are made up of many breeders, as well as riders and owners. USDF represents all aspects of dressage and dressage sport horse breeding. It also has members who are also breeders of hunters and jumpers, and several of those people are represented on the USDF Sport Horse Committee! While it is true that riders, rather than breeders, make up the majority of USDF membership, it isn't true that breeding interests are not important. In fact, it is the ability to communicate with and EDUCATE riders on the importance of the breeders, young horse training, etc., that is a primary value of this close association.

USDF has done more to support US breeders than any other national organization. Not only do we promote sport horse competitions (including the Cosequin USDFBC) but we have organized and sanctioned Sport Horse seminars for over 15 years, sanctioned Handlers clinics, provided breed statistics based on year-end awards, created educational materials, DSHB scoresheets, and trained judges and show managers. We now have DSHB And Materiale HOY awards and added DSHB awards for All-Breeds just a couple of years ago. In addition, we have published breeder information for ALL our year-end awards (both dressage and DSHB) for years and have spent substantial funds trying to update our database (including contacting all year-end winners to determine breeder and horse data if it hadn't been sent when the horse was registered). USDF has also spearheaded several AHSA/USAE/USEF rule changes to include more horse and breeder data on entry forms and we have strongly promoted that information to be published in show schedules. Maybe all this sounds trivial, but I can assure you it is both expensive and very time-consuming to do a complete and thorough job. To say USDF is not interested in, or supporting breeders is simply inaccurate.

The USDF Sport Horse Committee under the leadership of Hilda Gurney, and current chair Scott Hassler, has really been proactive to promote the CONNECTION between riding and breeding horses. If any of you have read recent articles in USDF Connection - and some of you claim to be interested breeders who are USDF members - you would know that USDF is promoting many of the issues that you express concern about on this BB.

And to digress -- this is where I think some of you are missing the point.The POINT of horse breeding is PERFORMANCE. Therefore, the connection between breeding and breeders, and trainers, riders and performance competitions is critical, and is the weak link.This is the reason that it is important to promote breeders whose horses are successful in competitions, not only DSHB competitions, but also in performance. We are currently reviewing the criteria for USDF breeder awards to make them more meaningful. And this is the reason why materiale classes are so important to "connect" the DSHB shows with performance as they are the BRIDGE.

Rather than forming another organization in the alphabet-soup of national organizations we already have, it would make MUCH more sense to get involved in the current breed/discipline organizations, such as USDF, to get/keep a BETTER not a more DISTANT connection with the trainers and riders!!!!!!!Also, people who are primarily interested in other disciplines should get more active in their discipline organizations (such as USEA (formerly USCTA) and the soon-to-be H/J USEF affiliate).

Someone said that we should be training our riders to TRAIN rather than sending them abroad to buy horses. This statement implies that we are not training good riders - or that we have the authority to tell people what to do with their own money!! However, to the contrary, USDF has invested more in education than probably any other international affiliate of the NGB! With local and regional training clinics for riders of all levels (with such clinicians as Zettl, Schumacher and others), with Trainers clinics for all levels of trainers, a successful Instructor Certification program, etc., we have certainly had a huge impact on the level of training and riding in the U.S.in the last 30 years.

To the premise that we can tell people where to buy their horses - or rationalize that they should buy and train our GREEN horses when they can (for not much more money) buy a TRAINED horse from Europe, I think we are missing the boat. We need to fix the problem as we will only fall further behind if we try to impose such principles on the horse-buying public. We need to adopt the principles of the free market! There is nothing wrong with buying a trained horse, if you have the money and interest and this is NOT addressing the real problem in the U.S.!

In fact, the USDF Sport Horse Committee has already talked about the need to promote young horse trainers in the U.S. and we have several ideas about how to move forward, possibly in conjunction with some other USDF committees. Our main problems (besides lack of recognition for breeders, which USDF is already making great headway on) are:
1 - lack of good and accessible young horse trainers
2 - the difficulty in seeing and trying several good horses at the same time in close proximity
3 - the need for better marketing

I believe we will start to see progress on problem #1 in the next couple of years, through USDF and some other initiatives.

#2 and #3 are being addressed by some local breeders' clubs. The Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders Club (MAHB) is an example. This organization does joint marketing and a joint sales fest. North Carolina and Florida have breeders clubs (multi-breed and discipline) and some other areas (southeast and northwest) have breeders clubs. These local initiative should be expanded in all areas of the U.S.

It will be interesting to see if a national breeders club gets off the ground. It will take a LOT of money and a good staff to implement the wish list that was posted in another thread. And it will be just as difficult to get a focus that will satisfy all the special interests. It is impossible to be everything for everybody and it is impossible for breeders to operate in a vacuum without working hand in hand to promote their interests WITHIN the various breed and discipline organizations that already operate in the U.S.

I apologize for posting such a long message!

Janine Malone

[ise@ssl]

It would be nice if it were true the the YR clinic was presenting a pros/cons on buying here or in Europe - but I do not believe that was the case. Let's not mince words.

Regarding doing things for breeders - HOW ABOUT IDENTIFYING THE BREEDER!! We've crawled on our stomachs for this - even with the All Breeds Awards - or HOY - I know I've written more than a few times to makes sure the BREEDER'S name is always listed and I've never received responses to most of my ardent pleas. It's a very rare show that even mentions the breeder. AND REQUIRE IT ON ALL ENTRIES. HAVE A PENALTY IF THE OWNER/RIDER OMITS THE BREEDER WHEN THEY DO KNOW WHO IT IS.

Here's how I see it - BREEDERS shoul put their money where it works. Don't give any additional money other than what you MUST spend to the various horse organizations. If our TEAM members are going to consistently buy overseas - don't contribute money to support the Team - let those people profiting from finding foreign bred horses for them make the contributions - or tell the riders/owners to get the breeders in EUROPE to make contributions. Now I'm not trying to be natty here - just saying - as a business person you need to spend your money where you get a return. Domestic Breeders aren't getting a return from the top riders.

The new Young Horse Championships are a fabulous way to encourage people to buy and show DOMESTICALLY BRED HORSES. So try to get as many of these off the ground and make sure you put BREEDER RECOGNITION AND PARTICIPATION IN CASH AWARDS in the requirements. Even if you were thinking of sending an extra $25.00 to the USWHATEVER - consider this alternative. Get together with a few other breeders and offer a $100 prize for the top scoring North American Bred at a show near you with it split $75.00 to the Owner/Rider and $25.00 to the Breeder. MONEY TALKS. And even a small amount of money can mean a lot to those who own/compete the horse WE BREED.

We need to get a little muscle here and tell all these know-it-alls who keep telling us we don't know what we are doing that we will run our businesses with an eye on promoting our OWN HORSES WHEREVER THEY ARE. But not competitition horses that are foreign bred.

Janine -
If the USDF really wanted to help the Breeders they would stand firm that there should be ONE - YES ONE - HELLO ONE - IDENTIFICATION NUMBER FOR EVERY HORSE. NOT A DIFFERENT ONE FOR THE USDF, USAE, USEA, PHR, AND PROBABLY THE NEW H/J GROUP.

I've heard the USDF has a nice cash flow from their own horse ID system so they don't want to turn that over to the USAE. Is that true?

BREEDERS CANNOT AFFORD ALL THESE NUMBERS AND MEMBERSHIPS.

And regarding the training, marketing - I have the following observations. We are training our horses - we've had to and we have been selling them. Would it be nice to have the training set-up that they have in Europe - you bet but I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm better off building an apartment in my carriage house and brining a bereiter over yearly for four months to start my horses than wait for serious programs to be put together in the U.S. to train BEREITERS - not just RIDERS.

John Strassburger opined that we aren't focused on horsemanship - it's true - we are focused on CATCH RIDING - in all disciplines. How often do we see pleading ads from Young Riders seeking FEI horses to compete on before they are too old. Why haven't they brought a horse along themselves?? Hard work - YOU BET - but that's what gives Europe this huge wealth of competetent riders who can not only ride a dressage test, but gallop, jump and OH MY GOD! hack a horse out on the trails.

And with respect to marketing - well people have NO IDEA WHO BRED MOST OF THE HORSES COMPETING - so how in can they even know where to look to find horses here in the U.S. I've seen publications (COTH at the head of the class) who give print space to the HANDLER of a horse but NOT THE BREEDER.

I also wonder how many of theses "agents" and "trainers" who take their "clients" to Europe are really on the up and up with respect to the compensation they are receiving. It's a money driven society and they wouldn't be going there if they weren't making a financial gain doing it. Here in the good old USA - there's a paper trail on most commissions - not across the pond.

If another organization has to be started to unite all the sporthorse breeders into one BIG MUSCLE - I say - sign me up. I've sent too much money to the USAE, USDF, PHR, USEA and seen far too little in return. The data bases vary with respect to information, duplication, errors, omissions, etc. etc. And they are not compatible electronically. What's that old saying about computers - "garbage in....garbage out".... How are we supposed to use the information gathered in any constructive manner??

The Sires of the Year - are based on incomplete information. i.e. - if the sire was even listed in the Horse ID system by the person registering the horse into the system. So people run off and breed to stallions never noticing how few offspring the rankings are based on. This isn't statistically helpful.

When you consider the depth of the information available to European BREEDERS, BUYERS, ETC. on their horses you don't have to wonder why they can market horses better than we can.

Here we are - the nation that invented computers and horses can be put into systems twice, change names, have completey fabricated show careers, no BREEDER!! and the various horse organizations keep telling us ....be patient we are working on a universale tracking system. And even though we have no information we can have our top people write articles and make comments that U.S. breeders don't know what they are doing! It's like an Kafka novel. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jan. 10, 2004 at 06:11 PM.]

[dray]

Well, Ilona,

Kudos to your direct and well stated representation of the status of American Breeders. I look forwrd to to hearing the rebuttal...or will the Big Name Rep SERVING THE LITTLE PEOPLE all skulk off into the dark like last time??? Remember the blast of artic air I got?

[jemrph]

Ilona, I am only reporting on the written and verbal reports to the USDF Executive Board on the Grad YR program at Gladstone. The reports said the presenter talked about the pros and cons of buying horses in Europe vs the U.S., and gave some personal examples of problems that were encountered. I have no reason to believe that all of these people were lying to the Board.

You said: I've heard the USDF has a nice cash flow from their own horse ID system so they don't want to turn that over to the USAE. Is that true?

NO!!! In fact, USDF agreed upon implementation of its HID requirement to send all information FREE to USAE, and has sent WEEKLY updates for about the last year. USDF charges $20 for its HID, which hardly covers the cost of tracking the information. ALL HID information is sent FREE to USEF in order to reduce paperwork for USDF members, who are not also required to apply directly to USEF for the HID. Some other affiliates send their HID info to USEF and some do not. The costs related to the USEF HID are absorbed by some of their other fees and charges.

USEF apparently does not intend to use the UELN, which USDF is starting to track. USDF has an internal tracking system in its database where it can track horses by several numbers (breed, USAE, UELN, etc.) which is helpful to cross-reference, avoid future duplications, etc. And YES, the USDF system is compatible with USAE and some others- so information could be exchanged to avoid duplication and other problems, which has been a goal of USDF for some time.

Regarding the mandatory breed requirement. It is already MANDATORY for breeder to be listed on the entry form for breed-registered horses in DSHB shows, but it is nearly impossible for a show secretary or TD to determine if most horses are registered. As a TD, I check the entries for a lot of shows and you would be surprised how many BREEDERS do not list the breeder on the entry form. I guess they think the show secretaries have a crystal ball.

And as far as requiring shows to list breeders on the start lists or show programs, more shows are doing it since there are now a few computer programs that will produce reports listing the breeder. Show secretaries already complain about the paperwork, entry and reporting requirements and it is extremely difficult to get competitors to provide the proper information on their entry blanks! I would add that USDF Region 1 has asked for breeder info (including dam, sire and dam sire) on its entry blank for many years. USDF REQUIRES the breeder to be listed on the Cosequin/USDFBC information, be announced at the shows, etc., but the organization can't be at every show to enforce it.

I agree that the Sire of the year lists have been incomplete and some are not based on logical criteria. But this should improve with the HID, because all horses can now be tracked in the system. I also hope that we can see improved tracking of horses in the future.

[Laurie@CBF]

Yes Janine,

USDF (really you) has done such a good job with the USDF sport horse in hand shows that they are burgeoning. The problem now is that these horses are now maturing and they have NO options. It is like the QH halter industry - once they are four they are done. It is usually for a different reason (soundness issues), however, the result is the same - adult horses do not go on to other things. The material classes don't cut it IMO. No one but the breeders show in these classes (except maybe at DAD). The one decent thing USDF did was allow the NAFSHBA to put on the NA young horse dressage championships. Too bad USDF sat on the proposal so long that by the time it was "official" it was too late to get a horse prepared for it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif.

I am disappointed in your effort to put a whitewash over what happened. I much prefer Lendan Gray's response. She admitted she was the one responsible. She didn't "wriggle" around the issue and try to put a different "spin" on it. The Young Riders are the future of dressage in the US. We hear you LOUD and CLEAR - they will be buying their horses in EUROPE!

It is time for the NA sporthorse breeders to cut some of their losses. I am seriously considering NEVER registering another horse with the USDF. I think I have about 10 offspring that I have paid for their "ID numbers" (what is that - about $400.?). Since USDF does so little for the future of our young horses it will be easy for me to bypass them. If I want to get my babies off the property there are plenty of local hunter breeding shows we can attend. There are also some unrecognized sporthorse shows and it sounds like there may be more to come soon.


The recent value changes in the scoring of Eventing (dressage and jumping are more important) are making our young horses more attractive to the event riders. Event riders as a whole are very good at starting young horses. They are also very comfortable buying horses in NA. This is the reason that my horse that was 4th as a 2yr old in the USDF EOY is down in Ocala competing at an Event - right now.

USDF's only salvation with the Sporthorse breeders will be in getting more young horse futurities (4,5,6 yr old classes) with decent prize money awards. That is what attracts riders and trainers. I doubt they are up to the task as it was the registries that put up the money for the DAD futurity.

Ilona your comments are well said -I echo dray's "Kudos".

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
It would be nice if it were true the the YR clinic was presenting a pros/cons on buying here or in Europe - but I do not believe that was the case. Let's not mince words.

]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you believe that? Have you spoken with someone who was there??

[Laurie@CBF]

I agree that the show entry process is currently ridiculously laborious. Who wants to waste their time at each show to fill out the same information over and over again?

This wouldn't be that hard to solve. Go to a check book system like they have in Europe. Once a year you apply for your book of "checks". All the info is filled out the first time (breeders could do this if their was one univeral ID number). All the relevant info - name, DOB, breed, breeder, ID number etc is pre-printed on this check. At each show you tear a coupon out of the book and hand it to the show secretary - wow wouldn't that be amazing!!!. That would be TOO easy for both competitor and show manager http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Each year you renew your request for another "book' of checks.

I am getting really sick of hearing - IT CAN"T BE DONE! If Europe can do it - why can't we???????????????????

If NA wants to be different - then go to a bar code like we use for our grocery stores.

[jemrph]

Lendon said she was responsible for the topic on the Grad YR program because she organized the program and got the speakers. I was not involved. I am simply stating what was reported to the USDF Board. How can you say this is whitewashing?

Both the sticker/entry book system as used in Europe and a bar code entry process have been discussed, but both require standardized software and considerable expense to develop - as well as cooperation with the various organizations. It is very likely that USDF will try to move forward with at least a consolidated report with all info that can be printed off the USDF website, if there is lack of interest/cooperation to develop such a system from the other organizations. At least this won't involve additional expense for the shows and it will help competitors.

Unfortunately, too few people have previously been willing to pay the costs to develop such innovative programs but finally there are some private software developers who are improving the options for show managers. Believe it or not, many riders and trainers (more in other disciplines than dressage) have been strongly opposed to data tracking and identifying of horses.

USDF HID #s are $20 each x 10 horses= #200.

USDF is posting competition results on its website, and is tracking dressage and DSHB results. Performance data for horses is already available from USDF, and has been for years.

If you breed hunters, I can certainly understand going to a hunter breeding show, but if you breed for dressage, why would you show the horses in a hunter breeding show vs a DSHB show? Also, if you are interested in the tracking of performance results, why would you compete in any unrecognized show where the results don't go in any sports database?

BTW, the Young Horse championship at Devon was not related to any USDF program. It was privately sponsored and funded. Devon and the sponsors announced the program many months prior to the competition, before the printed prize list was distributed.

Rather than bash the organizations that have been working hard to develop a better tracking system (USDF, USEF and USEA have all made huge improvements in the last few years), it seems like it would make more sense to talk to the riders, trainers and show managers who have fought against such progress!

I don't understand why the organizations that are making progress are being criticized for not doing more, but the people who are making roadblocks are barely mentioned.

As I said in the beginning, I am also a breeder and I face the same problems as many others on this board in training and marketing horses. I know that some trainers with nice young horses are also frustrated by people who go to Europe to buy horses. I don't claim to have all the answers but I know that progress isn't instantanious and I know that USDF has done more to promote and recognize breeders and U.S. bred horses through its programs than anybody else has done.

It is true that many riders don't appreciate the importance of breeders. They don't understand the value of promoting and rewarding successful breeders and some of them haven't supported USDF's efforts to improve the tracking and validity of breed data and competition results. Now the breeders (at least on this board) say USDF isn't supporting them. How can an organization make any progress with so little support from the industry?

[lorik]

I can certainly back up all of Janine's coments (though those of you who know Janine most likely know she needs no back up) regarding the strides USDF has made in promoting the breeder through USDFBC, Sport Horse Seminars, Handler Clinics, etc. The formation of the Materiale classes (of which Janine was instrumental) was, in my opinion, an effort to bridge the "in hand" world with the "performance" world. We need to strengthen that bridge. I think that USDF and USEF have become great allys in the HID system. The fact that USEF will accept your horses' USDF number was a great effort towards the one number system. I believe that only happened because USDF was being responsive to their membership. They put in place an infrastructure that allows this to happen seemlessly. This costs money, so the $20 we've all paid to get our horses' HID numbers was money well spent. The HID system has allowed for more streamline tracking of year end awards. Is it perfect? No. What system is perfect when in it's infancy? I'm sure it will get better.
I have seen USDF at work during the last two years conventions. I see the commitment on the faces of everyone in those meetings. I see how democratic the process is. I see that each individual has a voice and, if you find a few kindred spirits to speak with you, you can change things from within. I have seen that USDF has a huge presence with USEF and most of the changes that USDF recommends, USEF changes.
I wonder if other affiliates have the same pull. So from my point of view, if we can decide exactly what it is we need to build that bridge between good breeding and high performance, and speak with one voice, USDF and USEF will listen. Will it happen overnight? Definately not, but I believe it can happen.

Laurie,
I, for one, would love to have a system such as you describe. If you think you're tired of filling out entry forms for x-number of shows and y-number of horses, imagine the secretary who is typing those into a computer. Trying to decipher the handwriting and get everything right at midnight after a long day at work is not an easy task. Fortunately, for me anyway, there is some tracking software out there now that will allow me to type in only once and have the information go from show to show.
this will be a huge improvement over the next few years. If we don't have the standardized software that is needed to do the "checkbook" type of entry, the next best thing would be to have a standardized entry form. One that you could fill out for each horse/rider combination, photocopy and file. New show? Go to the file, pull out said entry form, sign the back and send it in. There has been talk about this. A few shows have pecularities, but I think in the next couple of seasons, you may see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Ideas are a beginning, but we need people to make the changes happen.

[ise@ssl]

PLEASE PLEASE - don't talk about the costs. We all had to stand down and watch the USAE AND USET make several law firms very very solvent to achieve an agreement that HAD TO HAPPEN as mandated by the USOC.

Those MILLIONS$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ could have built and paid for a Universal Horse ID system easily. And I REPEAT - People who met with the USAE and told them they could offer the SOFTWARE similar to the European system FOR FREE - were turned down.

The check book or bar code system is possible and if Secretaries and organizations CANNOT see that this would make the entire process Fast, Efficient and with minimum errors - I just don't understand the obstinance.

The forms for Horse ID #'s for the USAE, USDF, PHR, USEA are ALL DIFFERENT. Why can't you guru's who are involved in this at least standardize the form and have the same information??? It's as though every organization believes they have the best system and won't budge at all. So we continue limping down the track with two different shoes and our shorts on backwards!

We hear the horse ID system just won't work here but have to sit and watch how it does and hasin Europe which includes many, many breeds and numerous different COUNTRIES. We are one Country and we can't do this? HOGWASH.

Good heavens - even small companies are linked electronically - we can't get our show secretaries and various horse organizations linked the same way? I just CANNOT believe this.

I hope all breeders will truly consider this thread and the proposed Breeders Organization. There are more of us than we know and regardless of our registries, past differences or whatever - we deserve and MUST DEMAND services from these organizations or stop supporting them financially.

If rider "X" likes to buy Jumpers from certain barns in Germany - well then let THAT BARN IN GERMANY donate money to the USET. After all - when the horses do well it certainly helps them sell more horses - it does NOTHING for U.S. Breeders. Ditto for Dressage and Event riders. If BNT's keep writing editorials on why we need to send more horse/riders to International Competitions - well let these BNT'S who very often have their faces in advertisements as sponsors for various products - dedicate part of their sponsorship money to this goal.

If Young Riders continue to go to Europe with the assistance of their Trainers to find "made" horses to compete on - fine - let those Trainers (who I am sure get a commission) and the Sellers in Europe - donate to the Young Riders program. But consider that a Breeders Organization COULD AND SHOULD have some dough available for Young Riders competing on HORSES BRED HERE.....ONLY!

I think it's sad we've been continuously pushed into corners about the quality of what we breed and how hard it is to buy horses here. The same BNT's that won't buy a horse here unless they have it on trial for months - will go to Europe try a horse for two days and INSIST that this is the horse for the client. Why? IMHO - DOUGH! They are either getting a commission from Buyer & Seller or getting another horse from the Seller on the CHEAP. Europe is up to their eyeballs in horses. It's a free market system - so let the buyers who want European bred and made horses go there - but BREEDERS HERE SHOULD NOT PUT ONE BLOODY PENNY TOWARD ANY ORGANIZATION OR CAMPAIGN OR GROUP WHO DO THIS. We get nothing from this - so why invest in it??

Denny Emerson hosed us pretty good and then ran. He never responded to points put to him - nor would he back his statements up with facts. I emailed him as to WHY, WHY, WHY the United States Eventing Association doesn't even ask for the name of the Breeder in their Horse ID system and never received a response.

John Strassburger makes the off-handed remark that we don't have a good mare base in this country. BASED ON WHAT JOHN????????? Where's the statistics you used to print and stand behind a sweeping generalization like this?? I'm a breeder - I'd love to have the information and I'm sure most other breeders would as well.

WHERE'S OUR FORUM - IT DOESN'T EXIST. Perhaps a new organization FUNDED with money we would otherwise "donate" to the USWHATEVERS would give us some voice to say THESE ARE THE FACTS. These are the statistics on what we produce, these the stallions that produce, this is the quality of our mares and the bloodlines represented, these are the offspring that we have in competition (successfully) and I'll bet more often than not started and competed by Amateurs successfully!! Here's where we are, here's what we can sell you, here's what we can offer in additional services and programs and SPONSORSHIP.

Wouldn't it be interesting if this group evolved to having their own publication - and advertising for stallions or horses for sale in just this one publication would hit more people than spending alot more money in numerous other horse publications? Then all those "Stallion or Breeding" issues that make publishers big bucks wouldn't be there anymore...the dough would be coming back to the Breeders Organization.

It's a business people and we as an industry need to get a voice, vote with our feet and pool our money to make a change. Maybe we should talk to the people who offered the software to the USAE and try to build this ourselves. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We don't need to keep apologizing when we know our quality of horses is excellent and European experts tell us this. We need to pull together and tell our NGB AND OTHERS - hey you won't help us......fine........we'll do it ourselves and use the money we would normally send to you to do it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DONNA RAY - TELL ME HOW I CAN HELP AND TELL ME WHERE TO SEND MONEY.
ILONA

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jan. 11, 2004 at 11:09 AM.]

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jan. 11, 2004 at 11:17 AM.]

[ise@ssl]

Jeanette -
I'll be happy to send you by email the response I received from Sheila Forbes regarding the discussion on Buying in Europe - presents a different picture. I believe this is the same "form letter" that Laurie Cameron received as well.
ILona

[arnika]

Janine and lorik, thank you for your responses and all your efforts in trying to advance the breeder's role in USDF. Everything helps and if the advances you've listed happen within the next year or two that will be a big improvement. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I've been out of the showing loop for a while but plan to get back in this year, both in performance and in-hand so I am selfishly happy to read your replies.

Not to stir up trouble, but to set the record straight Janine, Lendon's original response was very detailed and definite that the topic and discussion at the YR clinic was on the advantages of and how to buy your next horse in Europe. She stated that it was what the YRs wanted and she didn't see anything wrong with it. She then went back and deleted that portion of her post along with the insulting comments directed at the breeders. So please be aware that what was reported to you as the substance of the talk might not be quite as represented.

And Ilona, go to www.nashba.com (http://www.nashba.com) North American Sport Horse Breeder's Association.

Terry

[This message was edited by arnika on Jan. 11, 2004 at 11:41 AM.]

[lorik]

Ilona,
All of your points are well taken.
There is show software that is working it's way to exactly what you speak of. Linking things together so that a horse/rider or horse/handler combination can be catalogued and called up when needed. This, I believe is a start to what you and others are desiring. I, as a show secretary would welcome the type of technology that would make everything come together in one cohesive, user friendly format. Just recently the USDF changed it's membership year so that it would coincide with the USEF membership year. This alone will save countless hours of secretarial time verifying membership. There was talk about trying to standardize entry forms. There is on-line verification of membership status (at least for USDF). These efforts will help streamline the process for all. A small step in the right direction.
As far as the millions spent to unite our NGB, that's water under the bridge. We're stuck with it, right, wrong or indifferent. We have to move on. At least now some of that money can be used to benifit USEF members and not line the pockets of the attorneys.
Donna,
I'd like to offer my help in organizing something regional to assist breeders getting their product to market. Feel free to contact me.

[ise@ssl]

Janine -
This quote of yours is one I just cannot understand:

"Rather than bash the organizations that have been working hard to develop a better tracking system (USDF, USEF and USEA have all made huge improvements in the last few years), it seems like it would make more sense to talk to the riders, trainers and show managers who have fought against such progress!"

The improvements, as you call them, made in the last few years - just don't seem huge to me as a breeder and I believe they came from people screaming over and over again. We are still decades BEHIND Europe on this.

Why should Breeders have to talk to riders, trainer, show managers about a Universal Horse ID system? The NGB and affiliates should just mandate it - period. Everyone keeps yelling ...well you breeders can't do what Europe does - well European breeders are ahead of us because of the Universal Horse ID system. We all know there are horses out there with fabricated show careers due to the fact that there is no tracking system. Should we care about the people who want to perpetuate that system?? Good, bad or indifferent a horse's pedigree, breeder, show career should be a matter of record. In my opinion, that's something the NGB ETAL should have as one of their top priorities. Hooey on those won't be selling as many horses in the future because a horse's resume will have a paper trail!

We pay dues to the NGB ETAL to made decisions - not pander to those who like a system that prevents verification of details.

[Tiki]

Janine - I applaud your efforts to simplify the Horse ID problem, but I have a real problem with how it is supposed to work.

Could you please provide some clarification?

I heard and read last year, and you confirmed on this forum, that USDF would be sending Horse ID numbers to USAEq, now USEF, and that the breeder/owner/whoever wouldn't have to apply directly to the USEF for the HID. What on earth does this mean? What is supposed to happen? Is the USEF supposed to send you a notice that your horse also has a HID with them? How are you supposed to know that your horse now has a HID (a new and different one) from USEF?

The particular reason that I am asking this is that I lifetime registered one of fillies with USDF on 4/28/2003 and received a USDF Lifetime Horse Registration number from them for her. Supposedly this IS her HID. I never heard a word from USEF, so last week I applied for a free HID from USEF through their website. I received a letter in the mail a couple of days later thanking me for my application for a Horse ID number and providing me with a number for my horse.

If I no longer have to apply for a HID from USEF if I have one from USDF then what is going on? I'm not trying to be difficult, in fact as I said I sincerely appreciate the ATTEMPT to simplify and coordinate this process, but DOES IT WORK? IS IT WORKING? If so, then how. I was getting concerned that I couldn't enter her in any shows this year without a USEF number so I applied and GOT one. From what you are saying I should have already HAD one.

I KNOW I'm not the only one confused about this. Since you've taken the time to explain some of the improvements that are in process or the planning stage, would you PLEASE explain how this is supposed to work and how it is supposed to be easier? Thank you so much in advance.

Sheila O'Keefe/Tranquility Farm

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[dray]

Ilona,

Back from round two at the barn for the day and checking the board.

Please PT me on the board or call me at 817.832.6650. I'm doing barn stuff today, but will phone access. I would love to brain storm with you. You'be been walking down the rut in the road, worn out the cracks in the sidewalk, seen the bad re-pvaing effort...

Yeah, it was intersting that Lenden in her remark directed personally to me called me some kind of couch potato, clueless, DO NOTHING something or another. HA! POOF PFM...deleted her nastigram.

[jemrph]

Ilona -

You wrote:
posted Jan. 11, 2004 12:26 PM
Janine -
This quote of yours is one I just cannot understand:

"Rather than bash the organizations that have been working hard to develop a better tracking system (USDF, USEF and USEA have all made huge improvements in the last few years), it seems like it would make more sense to talk to the riders, trainers and show managers who have fought against such progress!"

The improvements, as you call them, made in the last few years - just don't seem huge to me as a breeder and I believe they came from people screaming over and over again. We are still decades BEHIND Europe on this.

I agree with you!!!!!!!!! The progress doesn't seem huge when compared with Europe, but it was hard-fought and is significant when you consider the amount of opposition to it. The fact is, breeders on this side of the pond haven't done a very good job convincing all the other parts of the horse business why tracking performance is so important to the success of horse sports in the U.S. Preaching to the choir doesn't cut it!

As you said, there are a lot of people making lots of $$ by falsifying competition records for horses. There are a lot of show managers, riders, judges, etc., who absolutely don't see the value of compiling competition records on horses. Some have outright called it an invasion of privacy to have (bad) show results posted or published, or used in a horse's show record. I have been told that this could be a "liability" issue if bad results hurt a future horse sale, or that someone could sue the Federation (USEF) if a horse that has a bad jumping history - and someone eventually gets hurt and uses this prior history to make a case that the horse has a history of problems.

OF COURSE, competition results can track performance re sires, dams, offspring, breeders, breeds, and can also make it harder to "hide" performance problems that might hurt a horses' value. I heard from AA riders in dressage who believe that this is just something to help breeders. One AA (who said she was very supportive of breeders) told me that this was just a ploy from the breeders and trainers to get the AAs to pay for something they want to promote their own horses.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THE BIGGER PICTURE!!

The fact is that USDF has elected DELEGATES from every category of its membership. There are quite a few breeders and trainers who are delegates and they are the ones who basically got the HID through the USDF BOG. USDF IS A DEMOCRACY and the democratically-elected BOG is the group that has the power to accept or dump such initiatives. Even on the COTH board, USDF was criticized for adopting the HID - as well as spending the money on the new database!!!

I personally strongly supported the USAE HID (including advocating many changes in the 8 drafts that it took to get support from the other breeds and disciplines) and the Dressage people in USAE helped ensure the passage of the rule, as ALL voted in favor! USAE Board members are not democratically elected, but they represent MANY constituencies, many of whom think such a requirement and database are empowering "Big Brother" to compile information that isn't necessary for the sport. Again, the mentality of the general "horse-public" just doesn't understand that it is more than "helping breeders market their horses" as I have so often been told.

Why not write letters to editors in other horse publications promoting the value of one universal number, or write about the value of the sports database and tracking results in breeding better horses and improving the opportunities for riders and trainers to identify the best horses in the U.S.? Such information has been published by both USDF and USEF from time to time, but outside support would be helpful in other publications.

Sheila,

Regarding your issue. The USDF reached an initial agreement which is outlined in a press release in the November 2002 news archive on the USDF website (www.usdf.org) (http://www.usdf.org)). There have been several subsequent updates to the agreement which have also been published in press releases, magazines, website, etc. Initially, as I recall, USEF was to assign its own numbers and notify people upon receipt of the USDF info. Later, a decision was made that USEF would simply use the USDF number on comp.data as it wasn't necessary to send out a number. (That info was also published.)

Hopefully, when you later sent in the USEF application they checked in their database and determined they already had your data so that your horse isn't listed twice (w/two numbers). I recommend contacting Cheryll Frank to be sure that your horse has only one number in their internal database.

The USDF confirmed last summer that it was receiving many complaints from people who hadn't received their USAE numbers. People were told they could simply request that USAE mail them this information. As you say, confusion like this is unfortunate. Although information has been sent to competition managers in various USDF and USEF newsletters and email notices, it often doesn't get to the competitors. It seems to me that people who are neither USDF nor USEF members don't get all the publicity explaining the procedures, because they are not getting the magazines w/the info.
Sorry this was a problem for you.

[Tiki]

Janine - thanks for your answer and the background on this. The problem that I, and lots of others, had is certainly not your fault, but you have 'interior' knowledge that we don't.

However, I still don't understand how the breeder/owner/whoever is supposed to magically 'know' what their horse's USEF number is supposed to be if the horse has an HID or is lifetime registered with USDF. AND in many cases it obviously doesn't happen.

In my example, I lifetime registered 3 horses with USDF on April 28th, 2003, and also applied for a USEF HID. All three of those numbers start with 4579, with 3 other numbers to make up the whole number, so 4579xxx. I applied for and received the lifetime registration with USDF for the 4th horse, the filly noted above, but did not apply at the same time for an HID number as I didn't plan to show her last year. When I applied last week and received her HID from USEF it was 4621xxx. That's an awful, awful lot of numbers past 4579xxx.

IN FACT, the reason I applied for her HID from USEF last week was that I logged on to the USEF website to see if she had gotten her number and I had misplaced it. She was not listed with my other horses although she is listed on the USDF site. Something's not working here!!!!! She was lifetime registered with USDF AFTER all those notices were posted! USEF sent me a letter thanking me for my HID application and gave me a number - a number waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy past the numbers of my other horses.

I'm sure it is not your responsibility to fix all this, but PLEASE be aware that it DOES NOT WORK!!!

Sheila

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[mbp]

Personally I think that USDF HAS delivered more to US breeders over the long haul than many of the other organizations, and while they are all being mentioned I am going to most definitely add the actual registries. The thing is, Janine, and you mentioned this yourself, it is hard to be all things to all people. It seems to me that, without some restructuring, it will be equally hard for USDF to adequately server the owners, riders and trainers as well as breeder, in particular when so many breeders have sporthorse discipline overlaps (i.e., they breed for jumpers as well as dressage, etc.)

I do think USDF has been more democratically organized than most of the other entities, and I am going to include some of the registries here as well. Even with the horrible mess and morass that we have, the registries could, imo, dig in and work with what we have. E.g., how many of the registries, or the FNASHR as a unit, have approached USDF and/or USEF with a systematic approach of trying to have their breeders foals issued a number that would also serve as the USDF and USEF number, possible with a change in fee structure to their members. WOuldn't a mass registration approach like this also help with a negotiated rate on lifetime registrations? And put a great start to the database? Has anyone with USDF or USEF solicited from the registries information on the format they are using for issuing numbers so that there can be discussion of a revised consolidated database approach?

The thing is - yes, as breeders we can act with a more unified voice and do things that are more productive, perhaps, than just complaining. BUt when we are chided that we should act more in concert with the existing organizations - it would be nice to see that the example they are setting is that they are actively reaching out to each other and doing the same. Have there been meetings where USEF and USDF and USEA and FNASHR and other registries have all had representatives to work this kind of problem through?

To be honest, I don't really care much about the past and where we have been. I care about where we are going and what options are being explored and who is doing something. Again, as an example, when there is information that certain tracking or database options were considered, but were abandoned as too expensive - how expensive were they; what did the budget allow; what other organizations could have been asked to contribute and how could those organizations have achieved a specific benefit; what fundraising options were considered; with ever-improving information industry products what kind of tabling was done for the proposals and when are they up for reconsideration? Janine - I don't expect you to know those things specifically, but just to show that not much information "trickles down" to the breeders. WHen it does, it may be hidden in a small subparagraph of a USDF mag that is primarily about other things, or a USEF mag that is focused on celebration of Saddlebred or the like. Really - I don't see the registries do a lot in a coordinated fashion on these topics either, so I am not singling out USEF and USDF.

On a very local level, I feel I do have pretty good ties to riders and trainers. I have put on shows, held pretty much every GMO position from president, secretary, membership, newsletter, run Pony Club ratings, scribed at Rolex, scored at umpteen shows, ring stewarded, headed up publicity for a (then) USCTA screening trials, etc. I don't think I am particularly unusual as a breeder, bc I think a tremendous number of breeders come from the riding ranks in one shape or form. I don't mind working at all with the existing entities and I have a lot of respect for the many volunteers that make those organizations operate.

I know, too, how it feels to work hard for an organization and feel it is getting potshots. But Janine, when you and any other representatives of USDF, USEF, FNASHR or the registries read those criticisms that you think may be unfair potshots, put it in the context of how breeders feel when they work long and hard and have, for example, the chair of the USEF Breeding Committee take potshots at them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Just so that you can understand that the "heat" has been generated on both ends. Instead of focusing on whether there should just be a "sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander" exchange on whether breeders or their leadership in existing organizations are more "at fault", I would much rather see people sit down and work together. I will say, though, that I very simply do not see how any of the existing organizations are structured to address the concerns for breeders of sporthorses. And the "wish list" you saw was very likely mine. Having been around when USDF was just getting started, it had some pretty big wish lists too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Some never really came off well - see I remember the efforts for the head on competitions, I remember the days when the same judge's panel did all the regionals, etc. Some efforts are much easier to start, some fall apart, upon examination and study some are not viable, and some just take time. But the thing is, you have to come up with the lists of things that are not being done and try to check into them first, don't you? I don't see breeders getting asked by the existing breeders committees about what their "wish list" would be or giving much information out to the community about the things they are pursuing. Also, a lot of the representation is pretty duplicative. And while breeders are indeed members of USDF and vote - I have voted for GMO representatives but I am pretty sure that I have never voted for any member of the sporthorse breeding committee (althought they all seem to be people I would vote for) and I have never seen any kind of open solication for people to serve on that committee or bios on different candidates for selection with any kind of input from the breeders in general.


I would hate to see any organization that might represent breeders start out as being openly at war with the existing entities. The groups and individuals that started USDF worked with, and not against, AHSA. But I do see a big need for some type of entity to represent sporthorse breeders. I admit to being on the fence about some of the existing proposals, bc I see right now a leap to get an entity going, without a lot of preplanning or attempt to incorporate some of the national organizations that might actually be willing to help the cause if no one declares war on them first. But IMO, the national organizations need to realize that SOMETHING is going to have to happen. They need to also decide whether THEY are going to opt to work with or against a national sporthorse breeders organization. I really hope everyone makes decisions that will work to the benefit the overall community in the long haul.

[PaintBy#s]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Can we put our collective heads together and come up with something to actually DO? If nothing else, a strong letter writing campaign to CoTH, USDF, USEF, etc., making proposals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a curiousity question...Did the NASHBA go this route? Have letters been written and sent or brainstormed?

The NASHBA may very well "be on to something"...but I also think that a letter to the USEF,USDF and what other organization applicable, about our disagreements, unsatisfaction, would be worth sending. Maybe (notice I said MAYBE) we can get SOMETHING changed for the good? Express our unhappiness about the clinic on "buying horses in Europe" and how it should be a generic course on how to buy horses.

Some COTH posters wrote to the USEF about Equine drugging etc, and got the USEF to post for everyone, their response.

So we know someone from the USEF is already a "poster" and can view our posts...how about trying again RE: the clinic and maybe trying to pull the attention of the USDF.

again- Just curious.

[PaintBy#s]

USEF Letter (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5566064631&m=794609331)

[jemrph]

Sheila, I know that USAE/USEF is processing HID info for many thousands of horses. I have no idea the time frame that they were processing the USDF info, but it does seem to indicate either your filly got a duplicate number or the USDF info was processed much later or not at ALL (???) USDF has sent weekly updates to USAE/USEF but has not received many return files with the USEF numbers to be cross-referenced in the USDF database. I am also on the USEF Board and the convention is next week. I will ask some questions...

I agree that this kind of confusion is unneccesary and is not helping the horse owners.

MBP - you make several good points. I would like to say that the FNASHR and many other registries are working together with USDF and USEF to improve the process and the quality of data. (Much data that comes in has mistakes, b/c people don't bother to check the accuracy of the data they submit on their horses.)

Several breed registry representatives are continuing to work together with USDF to determine how best to report all the data that is being collected, to be useful to the sport.

Many people are like you and wear multiple hats and I think this is important. Regarding the USDF Sport Horse Commitee and others: All USDF Council members are appointed by the Regional Directors and the committees are appointed by the chair with input from the EB and others. But none of these groups can do anything without a vote of approval of the USDF BOG, which is the democratically elected governance structure. Even the C/C REPORTS have to be approved, as well as any programs, projects, etc.

And I can assure that you that the people on this BB are not the only ones who felt the COTH commentary showed a significant lack of understanding of the U.S. breeding industry. Again, USDF has been conducting educational sport horse seminars for almost 20 years,with the likes of Hanfred Haring and other renowned experts, but one would think that the history of the U.S. sport horse industry started only two years ago! Enough said on that topic...I don't want to get started.

On the bright side, the NGB battle is over and the new USEF president and CEO have expressed a commitment to work together to improve services for the sport. All of the international affiliate organizations (USDF, USEA, NRHA, ADS, etc.) have put forward a request to reduce duplication of services. USDF has met with USAE for three years to get some of these joint efforts to improve member services. Hopefully, some things will start to move forward.

On the issue of cooperation with a breeder organization, I can only say that it is a two-way street. Consensus-building is a requirement to grow any organization. Creating antagonism towards existing organizations whose cooperation is expected isn't normally successful. Duplicating what has already been done is enormously expensive - and again is splintering already scarce financial resources. Usually, people end out paying more fees that they were paying to start with.

Of course, there are marketing services for breeders needed, especially small breeders, where a breeders' organization could fill in the gap.

[Tiki]

Thanks Janine. Any chance you could give us a brief report on what they say about numbers and what REALLY happens when USDF sends USEF HIDs?

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[ise@ssl]

For the record I was told the Federation of North American Sporthorse Breeders DID offer all the information in their respective registries data bases to the USEF. It is my understanding they turned this down.

Also Tiki - it is possible to enter horses multiple times in these systems. For a fact it can be done on the USEF system. Also in other threads we were told that horses that have PHR #'s. (yes, I was one of those dummies that bought into that system as well) - automatically go into the HID system. This isn't true. Before I was told this I applied for an HID # for an Oldenburg we have in 3Day competition and who had a PHR #. On the form for the HID application I indicated his OLDNA registration # and his PHR #. He was given an HID #. All the information that I input was identical to what was submitted before - the system took it as a new horse!!!

I also asked how we could see if current owners had applied for HID's on horses we had bred and sold just to verify that we WERE indicated as the Breeder. I believe Cheryl Frank said to fax a copy of one of the horse's in question...I did...He was a DWB registered with the NAWPN and I had also paid for a PHR #. His original papers and PHR certificate were turned over to the woman I sold him to at the time ownership transferred. Never heard anything from USEF then just before Christmas by certified mail I received a new PHR for the same horse with ME listed as Owner!! I now have to write and ask them what this is all about? I'm just trying to track his show career and I have to check the records to see if he now has TWO PHR #'s.

Tiki and I can't be the only people who feel like we are in a parallel universe when it comes to these #'s. With horses competing in several disciplines - they sometimes need THREE DIFFERENT #'S. Are we to believe that show results from all these different organizations are being pulled up into one record??

And regarding liability because of show records. Well quite honestly - tracking a horse's show career is something that CAN be done by the various organizations. I would have to believe the USEF,ETAL have just as much liability by NOT providing that information to the public. After all these shows are not privately held and the results at the shows are made public at the shows. So folks - it's already in the public domain. I would think someone could sue for not having access to VERIFY what was represented about an individual horse's show career. That's withholding information that is NOT confidential. Results are posted at shows for heaven's sake - not slipped to the riders in sealed envelopes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Tiki]

Ha ha ho ho he he hu hu, Public Domain, HAH! Ilona, I almost spit up my root beer all over my keyboard. USDF has an open system that shows all the horses on their website if you ask for them by name. USEF, in it's infinite 'wisdom'(??) makes you log on to the secure area in order to see YOUR OWN HORSES! From what I've seen from their (exceedingly difficult and cumbersome) website, NOTHING is public except the rules, the HOY awards - which list NO breeder, and the leading sires which list no breeder - even for the DSHB classes. The offspring of the leading sires list no dam or damsire and no owner or breeder. Really helpful (she says with tongue in cheek)!!!

You can't look up ANYONE'S show record unless you own it!!!

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[dray]

I want to be very clear in stating that NASHBA is not at open or covert war with any existing organization.

Pleae indulge me while I demonstrate by example.

I work and I pay taxes to the government (or possibly membership dues to DV, RPSI, USDF, USET). The government tax rate and benefits(dues and services provided) are determined by elected leaders.

Even though I pay Social Security Taxes TODAY, I do not expect the government to take care of me in the future. Likewise, I do not expect any exisitng organization (e.g.,USDF, USET, RPSI, DV, etc.) to sell my horses for me today or in the future.

The government, on the other hand, does expect me to turn a profit in my breeding business. So in the spirit of free enterprise, NASHBA is offering a marketing venue for North American Sport Horse Breeders, serving the interests of the breeders, many of whom breed top class elite horses for FEI disciplines.

If providing an opportunity for American breeders to operate in the black is open war...
If by helping others while I pull myself up by my bootstraps is open war...
If being proactive, rather than a milktoast whiner hiding behind an untrackable identity is open war...
Then I guess I just tossed out a glove...silk, if I remember correctly.