cringe... would YOU give MGE a bye based on her single clear round?

[rileyt]

REQUEST: IF YOU HAVE A BURNING DESIRE TO DISCUSS THE ADA OR ANY OTHER PERSONAL CRUSADE, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD AND DO NOT POST ON MINE!

God, I'm scared to ask this question...

We're halfway through the selection trials, and there have been some very good performances by Beezie Madden, Fein Cera, and others... I think we can all agree that MGE is a terrific rider, and Perin is a terrific horse.

The question is this: If you were on the selection committee, and you had to decide on the basis of MGE and Perin's one clean round (over a course in which 11 other horses went clean), would you grant her a bye and put her on the team?

Me? I would wait until the end of the trials, and see how I felt about the strength of the team that "earned" the spot based on their performance. If the selection trials produces 4 seasoned, top notch competitors... I think I would probably not include MGE and Perin (as much as I would feel for them for the bad luck they had). If, on the other hand, the trials produces a team that appears flukey... I'd probably replace the weakest rider with MGE and Perin.

[rileyt]

REQUEST: IF YOU HAVE A BURNING DESIRE TO DISCUSS THE ADA OR ANY OTHER PERSONAL CRUSADE, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD AND DO NOT POST ON MINE!

God, I'm scared to ask this question...

We're halfway through the selection trials, and there have been some very good performances by Beezie Madden, Fein Cera, and others... I think we can all agree that MGE is a terrific rider, and Perin is a terrific horse.

The question is this: If you were on the selection committee, and you had to decide on the basis of MGE and Perin's one clean round (over a course in which 11 other horses went clean), would you grant her a bye and put her on the team?

Me? I would wait until the end of the trials, and see how I felt about the strength of the team that "earned" the spot based on their performance. If the selection trials produces 4 seasoned, top notch competitors... I think I would probably not include MGE and Perin (as much as I would feel for them for the bad luck they had). If, on the other hand, the trials produces a team that appears flukey... I'd probably replace the weakest rider with MGE and Perin.

[Madison]

I agree - I would wait to see how the trials played out and what team emerged on that basis before I decided whether to give her a bye, although that makes it an even harder situation because you then have one rider from the trials who very specifically gets "bumped". It is just such a shame that she got hurt and that it even has to be an issue.

[Rocky]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif the selectors sure have a tough decision to make on that one. I just read Molly Sorge's article regarding an interview with Ray Texel, and according to Ray, the selection committee is not granting a bye to Margie, at this time, they want to leave the committee's options open to see what happens with the remainder of the trials...

I really feel for Margie, and think that she (and Perin) is really one of the greats, but applaud the selectors for keeping their options open...

Let's just hope that their decision making is based on fielding a competitve team and leaves the politics in the background...

ANyone else?

[Heineken]

Honestly, I'm not sure I want someone who isn't healed on our team...and I think she is rushing things physically and mentally...She is awesome, and Perin is also wonderful BUT its a team and I'm not sure they are the best for the job at this time. Plus I'd hate to see her get hurt far away from her doctors and therapists!

[Calico]

Although I'd absolutely love to see her go, I am not the selection committee nor her doctor, and whatever they decide is what should be. And I'm sure she completely understands the situation. It way sucks, but that's how the cookie crumbles. She'll be back with other great partners, and who knows, Perin might just age very well.

[Go-Go]

No way, Jose. Her leg doesn't want to play, but WOW - what steely resolve to even get out there and go for broke. She ought to get a medal just for that - incredible.

[Gracious]

As much as I love Margie and admire her tenacity to get back out there so quickly after her fall, I think that if it were up to me, I would have to say that no, I would not put her on the team. I think that we have plenty of strong, healthy riders left in there to fill the slot and do well. Given different rider/horse combinations it may have been a different story.

[Glimmerglass]

IMHO, no.

One good round does not make for a barometer with future performance. Single great rounds happen - I seem to recall that Ms. Haas on Mr. Blue put in at least one brilliant round back in 2000 for the qualifiers, but over the grueling test series finished 6th overall.

I think a lot of the doubt in giving MGE and Perin and bye was/is related not to Margie's performance, but rather the fact that Perin did not compete in 2004 while she was off her feet.

It begs the question, if the Olympics was the goal for Hidden Creeks: why wasn't Perin put into competition with another top rider in the interim? (With it made clear Margie when well would resume the ride on Perin if selected) As a for instance, would it have been that hard to approach someone like a Peter Leone at WEF and have him go into a few GPs with Perin? You sign a contract, sort out the payment/earnings terms and move on.

The selection committee having nothing fresh to go on with recent performance would be foolish to assume that a shelved horse, no matter how good in late 2003, is going to rally to the top at the Olympics in short order.

MGE's determination I'm sure was simply not at question when she applied … although her now exacerbated health condition sadly will likely be.

[Gunnar]

MHO,

From what I have read and heard, Margie will not be phsyically ready, to compete by Athens. We need a complete and healthy team that is practicing and competing, not resting, as the Games approach. Sorry Margie. We still loff you and Perin. If we wait until the end of the trials and boot someone who earned their way by performing at their best at the right moment, how fair is that? In life timing is everything. May the best team win.

My 2 cents!!!

[Black Market Radio]

I agree with what das been said here. Margie is a fabulous rider, and it truly sucks that she had such a bad accident in an olympic year, but that is the risk we take for getting on these huge beasts.

We have not had a good olympics in SJ in a long time. We need to send the best out there, and on any other day MGE IS one of the best. But for now she needs to stay home and heal, take one for the good of the team.

[SBT]

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">No, I wouldn't. Just jumping that one round caused re-injury, and she's said herself this is an injury that takes a long time to heal. She certainly is a superwoman and was undoubtedly ahead of this schedule, but now she's had a setback. IMO, her being healed enough by August is doubtful. </span>

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">THAT SAID, I wouldn't object to a bye if we end up with a super-green horse/rider in the top 4; in that case, I'd consider it an equal risk and would sooner go with Margie and Perin's experience, and keep my fingers crossed WRT the injury. I'd bank on an injured Margie any day over a horse/rider combo with no international experience.</span>



Hey, I figured out the <span class="ev_code_RED">C</span><span class="ev_code_YELLOW">O</span><span class="ev_code_GREEN">L</span><span class="ev_code_BLUE">O</span><span class="ev_code_PURPLE">R</span><span class="ev_code_PINK">S</span>!

[Party Rose]

When is the team actually announced?

Are the Olympics in September?

I think that if the USEF were trying to construct a team AND Margie WAS a consideration, that they would ask Margie how she really feels about both her & Perin's physical condition before the final team was decided upon.

Margie, who has always done what is right for the good of our country, would give an honest answer.

[Weatherford]

Olympics in August...

Here is the link to Molly's interview with Ray Texel

Bye or not to Bye? (http://www.chronofhorse.com/special/04/sjsel_bye.html)

Of course, with Norman and Glascow out (boo hoo!), maybe she should allow HIM to try the horse.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

By the way, Mr. Blue is an incredible horse... and if the Haas' ever want him to retire to Ireland, I would take him in a heartbeat!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Black Market Radio]

Isn't Mr. Blue in France right now? I miss watching Elise ride http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Duffy]

Great idea, Weatherford, i.e., the possible pairing of Norman and Perin! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
Great idea, Weatherford, i.e., the possible pairing of Norman and Perin! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think someone in-the-know posted it wasn't likely, but is it REALLY not likely? Like, it couldn't happen so stop mentioning and thinking about it? Or dare to dream because it's not ENTIRELY out of the question?

[Duffy]

Certainly in the old days, that pairing would have been a distinct possibility. These days....

[Gracious]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
Certainly in the old days, that pairing would have been a distinct possibility. These days.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please forgive my young ignorance, but what's the difference between the "old days" and now in a situation like this?

[hideyourheart03]

IMHO, I think that they should save the team for the best of the best ... this is of course the Olympics. I think that since MGE is not completely "sound", I do NOT think she should get a bye because this could end up hurting the Americans in the long run. She is an AMAZING rider and with all of the great horses that she has in her barn (including HCs Jones), she will surely be able to have a great horse to ride in 4 years even though Perin is getting up there.

So IMHO, she should NOT get the bye ... the selectors should save the spots for the best "sound" riders.

[Duffy]

Ya think, MAD??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin, back in the days when Bert ruled the USET, and when horses were donated by generous families/individuals for the use of the USET, Bert would pair them up as he saw fit for International Competitions.

You've seen International Velvet, right? That was kind of how it used to work in the US as well.

[Tackpud]

Weatherford and Duffy - you are so right - "back in the good old days" the pairing would have taken place already and they would have had a few months to get ready for the selection trials. The difference in the sport is never quite as large as when you have an excellent and experienced rider with no horse...

I'm sorry for MGE - she's a tough competitor and a super addition to any team, but there are lots of extremely strong horse/rider pairs out there right now, and IMO she doesn't deserve the bye right now. Luckily we have a great selection committee and we should trust them to get it right. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[JustJump]

The way I see it, it's not a question of whether Margie "deserves" a bye, but one of explaining why the riders who jump their way to the top of the rankings wouldn't "deserve" to be selected based on their performance. At the moment, those at the top of the standings are all strong performers, and the weakest have been weeded out already. Notwithstanding any unexpected results that may emerge next weekend, the process seems to be working, and it is the one that was agreed to.

(As for an alternate rider scenario, I think there was previous discussion on this board of pairing Joe Fargis with Perin...either Norman or Joe would certainly have been considered during DeNemethy's reign, but sadly, I don't think there is even a mechanism to allow for such a possibility, even if it were seriously offered.)

[Gracious]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
Erin, back in the days when Bert ruled the USET, and when horses were donated by generous families/individuals for the use of the USET, Bert would pair them up as he saw fit for International Competitions.

You've seen International Velvet, right? That was kind of how it used to work in the US as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh, gotcha now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I was afraid I might be opening up a political can of worms.

[ESG]

IMVHO, even if this were the "good old days", the chances a pairing of Perin & Norman or whoever else would be non-existent. As has already been stated, we have some pretty strong competitors with their own horses who they have trained and shown and know backwards forwards and inside out. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd like to see the best prepared, most successful pairings represent us in Greece, and not a "throw together" union that would probably end up an embarassment, no matter how talented the individuals making up that pairing are. You can bet everyone else is fielding their best; why should we be any different?

Just my opinion...................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Glimmerglass]

Any pairing of Perin & [insert rider here] would of course be the decision of Mike Polaski, the owner of Hidden Creek. I really doubt that he'd be interested in sending a horse to the Olympics sans Margie. I suggested in a prior post that it could've made sense that Perin in Jan/Feb/Mar was given some visibility (when Margie was off) by using another rider in AGA events - but the Olympics? No.

As for Mr. Blue, I always though he looked best when Katie Prudent rode him for the Haas family.

[lauriep]

ESG, if Perin had been donated to the team "in the good old days,", the owner would have signed away their right to decide who rode him. The decision would have been entirely in Bert's hands, and the horse probably already would have been schooled by all the riders in training at the team (another change from back then), so it would have been clear early on who would have best suited him. I think everyone rode/won on Bold Minstrel at some time! LOL!

Mr. Blue may be dusted off this summer...Katie is without a horse right now....

[Jaysee]

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POST (as requested by the ORIGINAL POSTER), I agree with Glimmerglass as far as Mike not allowing the horse to go without Margie. Those kind of situations are very sticky... I heard that if she continues to move foward at the present rapid pace, there is the possibility of serious reinjury. Someone (not on the board) mentioned shattering of a bone and major arteries nearby http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ... is it really worth it??? I do want to mention that this is secondhand but I think my source (in this matter) is reliable. It's all about luck (hasn't it always been?).

[tyedyecommando]

As much as I would love Margie to be on the Olympic team, I think the incident in the trials prove that she is not yet physically ready to compete. Who knows if she will be able to compete by August and I don't think the selectors want to risk anything.

[Black Market Radio]

That would be awesome if KP rode Mr. Blue again, they made an awesome pair. Any word as to when Elise will be storming the horse show world again? Has Mr. Blue just mostly been breeding?

[Gayle]

I have to agree that I would vote NOT to give Margie the bye. As much as I admire her riding and talent, she just isn't healthy enough at this juncture and I for one would rather see her around for a long time to come including the next couple of Olympic games rather than pushing so hard to make these that she risks never riding again. Of course I will never have to make the choice whether to push myself to make the Olympic team http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but I hope that as disappointing as not being able to compete fully to qualify let alone go she decides that staying in the game for the long term payout is worth more than the immediate POTENTIAL gain. To lose her the sport permanently would be a bigger devastating loss than losing her to the games this year.

PS: Thanks Erin!

[Jair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Of course, with Norman and Glascow out <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Weatherford dear, what is a <span class="ev_code_RED">Glascow</span>?

I've heard of mucklecoos (Scottish cow) before, so is a glascow the same thing but living in Glasgow? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[HRobs]

I'm with everyone on not giving her a bye. Although she isn't one of my personal favorites, it would be a shame if she was given the bye, especially now, and end up re-injuring herself to the point that she ends up never fully recovering and not ever able to ride like she used to again. Not only would that be devastating for her and her fans(this almost makes her sound like a rock star), but she may end up "bringing down" the rest of the team.
I say give her the time she needs to FULLY recover from her injury, and hopefully either Perin ages well, like someone else mentioned earlier, or she gets another horse of his caliber for the next Olympics.

And, on another possibly related, possibly not related note: What a FABULOUS topic this turned out to be!!
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[just_me]

In case anyone is interested, here's an article about Margie in today's S. FL Sun-Sentinel.

Margie article (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-olympicrdp17may17,0,4008181.story?coll=sfla-sports-headlines)

[Gayle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaysee: ... I heard that if she continues to move foward at the present rapid pace, there is the possibility of serious reinjury. Someone (not on the board) mentioned shattering of a bone and major arteries nearby <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be correct for anyone with this type of injury. You can only break a bone so many times before it just won't heal anymore. A break as severe as this needs plenty of time to heal. AND unfortunately at Margie's age (AND NO I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS OLD! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) you just don't heal as quickly as you did when you were 18. Plus factor in that she has screws and hardware in there holding it together so that it does heal if she should reinjure it the hardware could cause serious damage to surrounding muscles, nerves, and vessels. Every reinjury will further weaken the bone and prolong whatever recovery she will have. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

I wish the circumstances were different but see my above post. Better she continue to have a long illustrious career rather than one that is ultimately described as tragically cut short trying to go to the Olympics.

[DMK]

Given that the selectors see no reason why MGE can't be ready in time for the olympics, and well prepped by that time, I can't think of one good reason to not give her a bye.

OK, I can see ONE reason - if we had 4 solid riders on 4 solid horses with international experience. But looking at the current horse/rider pairs, we have some really awesome riders on young horses with no or limited international experience (especially now that Glasgow is out). That rarely bodes well at the olympics. GIve me a known entity like Perin over that combination any day of the week. Really, it's not like the horse has been sitting out in a field while Margie is recovering. She does have some quality help, you know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In a perfect world, I would like to see Fien Cera, Royal Kaliber, Perin and maybe the 4/5 slot to some of these star younger horses like Sapphire/DeSilvio/Authentic, with the understanding that if Perin and Margie weren't progressing to the satisfaction of the Chef, they would be bumped to alternate status.

[Box-of-Rox]

back onto topic: the bye should be used if there are "surprises"--both good or bad. If a very novice rider has a lucky (or legitimately good, but not good enough to outweight their novie-ness) next few rounds, and it is determined that a bye should be used in favor of a more experienced rider, and margie is the best-looking experienced rider, then it should be used for her. or for another experienced rider. Similarly, if the selectors really want her, or another rider who they feel had an uncharacteristically poor trials score, to be on the team, it should be used.

but i agree with the selectors--it seems like they don't plan on (possibly) using the bye until the end of selection trials. I think this is really great, btw, because they saved one pair, that I think does have a shot at a medal, from jumping the trials, and saved the other bye to prevent a possible athens situation.

[HRobs]

On topic: I hope everything works out for the American team at the Olympics as I still think it's dern pathetic that the Canadian team couldn't get their arses in gear and qualify http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif. However, I still think it would be a good idea for the committee to wait it out at long as they can to see how things work out with not only MGE, but the rest of the people competing for a spot.

[Chestnut Mare]

I knew that rising to the bait would be too tempting for some. This thread is locked until Erin decides its fate.

[Erin]

We'll give this one more shot... IGNORE any comments that are off the original topic, because I'm going to delete them anyway.

If this doesn't stay on topic, it'll be closed.

[nutmeg]

I'm with DMK on this one. Perin trotted out on a whim for the National last year and was very convincingly first and second in the World Cup and Grand Prix. And Margie for once in her young life was trying to spare him by not showing early in 2004. Stick her on the team and lets see what modern medicine can do. He's a genuine Olympic horse and that's a rare bird.
And not to antagonize the Mr. Blue lovers, but every time I saw him with Katie he was clunking the jumps. He seemed much more relaxed with Elise. Landato is the man you want with Katie, he was like The Governor, Part II.

[mares.com]

Go Margie!!

[Weatherford]

Nah, I think Mr Blue should be sent to me.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The problem with "experienced" vs "not" is that someone like Clare Bronfman's experience HAS all be in Europe (she rides with Jan Tops), where she has done VERY well at the International level. So, while she is essentially, "unknown" over there, she is known here.

[JustJump]

I concur with Weatherford on this one--Clare Bronfman was one of only a few riders (including Beezie) to qualify several horses for the trials. She not only has the international experience (as a rookie, she was our top performer in the Nations Cup final in Madrid '01, after 9-11, and has since has been in Europe ever since) but has also proved (so far) that she has what it takes to get to the top.

I think that this time, at least the trials seem to be producing the results that we want--selection of the best team. The bye is the ace in the hole, and the selectors are dead right to withold passing judgement too early.

Sorry to offend the diehard MGE devotees, but she's not the only rider available with sufficient experience to get the job done. If she were, it might be another story, but she's not, and that's that.

[Magnolia]

If she can do one round, why not do the trials? What if she gets a bye and hasn't fully healed by the Olympics? What if 4 people turn in great trial rounds?

But I give her a thumbs up - we'll hear from her again - another great horse will end up with her soon enough.....

[Kellsboro Jack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
like Clare Bronfman's experience HAS all been in Europe ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I'm not mistaken Clare too asked for a bye and was declined. Obviously she is performing very well internationally so she should accordingly do well in these trials.

[Chappy]

DMK and nutmeg, I'm totally on board with you. Perin has proven himself over and over and Margie obviously has too. I say give them the bye. With Margie's determination and guts, she'll do everything in her power to be in top form for the games. And, if for some reason she's not, there's the alternate horse and rider to take her spot. After last weekend, you can be sure that Mike will make the right decision for her and Perin.

[findeight]

Much as I adore MGE, the selectors are right to at least wait until after the trials.

We really need to get the egg off our faces in the International ring and got a good start last year by fielding truely competitive teams. We also need to give a few outstanding horses/riders a bye if certain criteria are met.

MGE is not a young woman and she even admits she may have done further soft tissue damage by competing this past week. I would have some concerns about fitness on her part to school and compete on the rigorous schedual leading up to and including the Games..I'd hate to give her the bye and have her drop out for health reasons or, worse, turn in a performance affected by pain.

Then there is Perin, he's wonderful and capable but has nothing to show for the winter circuits.
Some of these other horse/rider combos have been brilliant and placed consistently. Current consistent performances are the best indicators of decent efforts in the pressure cooker of the Games and, IMHO, have to be the basis of selections with byes only for those who are current and consistent.

Yes, that is based on somebody's opinion and not all will agree but I think it's the best way to protect one or two that obviously need to go and let the cream rise to the top as the others fight it out in the trials.

Actually, I think we are deeper in talent this time around then ever before with so many that have the heavy international experience.

There will be other games and other horses for Margie.

[horsense]

Hasn't Margie and Perin more than earned their place on the Olympic team? Not only does she and Perin have the most consistent record over the last few years but Perin,against all odds, jumped fantastic in the first round of the Trials and ended up the leader proving that he is certainly in top form. If the Selectors are unsure of Margie and Perin's ability to be competitive in the future, the selection procedure has until July 14th to rearrange the riders. The criteria reads and I quote "During this period the Selectors have the ability to exercise discretion to substitute horse/rider combinations on the short list in the event of veterinary or medical reasons or extraordinary circumstances having a direct bearing upon obtaining the best qualified team for the 2004 Olympic Games, but only with the approval of the Chef d'Equipe and the unanimous approval of the Selectors." This gives the committee every opportunity to make the correct decision as they then have a safety net for anything unforeseen happening. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[J. Turner]

In an interview on Towerheads, Lauren Hough said she wouldn't want to be in the selectors or Margie's place. I am paraphrasing but I believe she said that it would be very hard to tell someone who had jumped 6 solid rounds (with no drop score) in the top three they he or she was not going to Athens.

The only situation I could think of would be if that third horse was relatively green. Is DeSilvio or Sapphire "olympic green"?

[horsenut]

I am so torn on this topic. I was lucky enough to watch the first weekend of trials at Del Mar, and I was so anxious to see Margie do well. All along I was convinced she should have a bye and be spared the trials. Thank God I didn't get to see her walk the course as I later discovered that even walking looks very painful and difficult for her. I have no idea how she got on a horse, never mind rode over those jumps.

Yes, she rode a clear round. However, there were moments during her round when everyone in the stadium held their collective breath as Perin made an especially big effort or Margie slipped around in the saddle. I was truly terrified for her watching the class. The one thing the round did show me was that Perin is still brilliant and that Margie wasn't ready to be riding.

The horses currently at the top of the leaderboard -- Fein Cera, Sapphire, and DeSilvio/Authentic -- are wonderful. I can't imagine removing any of them from the team. I'm so anxious to see today's results because I'd be so disappointed to see any of those horses have a bad round and suddenly find themselves out of contention. And for that reason, I can completely agree with the selectors' decision not to give away the final bye yet. What if Peter has another clear and then something wacky happens and he has a terrible round? I'd want the selectors to have the option of giving HIM the bye -- that horse was Best Horse at the WEG, after all.

While I was watching Margie's withdrawal unfold, I overheard someone with perhaps the best suggestion of all (and it was attributed to Katie): Why not take Margie along to Europe, along with the other top four qualified, as the reserve? At that point she can earn her way onto the team if her performances this summer warrant it.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nutmeg:
I'm with DMK on this one. Perin trotted out on a whim for the National last year and was very convincingly first and second in the World Cup and Grand Prix. And Margie for once in her young life was trying to spare him by not showing early in 2004. Stick her on the team and lets see what modern medicine can do. He's a genuine Olympic horse and that's a rare bird. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly, Margie ain't "young", no offense intended. While 46 isn't ancient, it's still well past the time when one's body heals quickly and completely, especially when that particular body is subjected to repeated injury in the same spot. She had sense enough to retire the Trials to hopefully let herself heal enough to ride in the future. That does NOT spell "success in the Olympics" to me. She'll be up against riders and horses that are in top form. And nothing against Perin, either (superb animal), but because he was rested early in the year, I doubt he's in the same shape as the other horses who successfully completed the Trials and can't be expected to compete with them, much less the best that the rest of the world has to offer.

IMHO, it isn't a question of whether either Margie or Perin deserve to go to Athens; they probably do. But athletes get injured, and sometimes they don't heal in time for big competitions. It's not right (or good for the team) to give a spot to someone who's not at the top of their game. Sad, especially for Margie and Perin, but true.

[Fiction]

THANK YOU ESG! Finally someone sees things the same way I do. As much as I think Margie & Perin are great, I think it's just rediculous to put an injured pair on our team. There will be other years. Save the spots for riders/horses who are healthy and at the top of their game!

[horsense]

What you don't seem to understand is that the rule was made for situations such as this. It states that if she doesn't show that she is in top form by July 14th they have the power to take her off and the next ranked rider is then moved up. By adding her to the team we are in essence then stacking the deck. If she isn't ready then no harm done we still have our strongest riders on top. Why not give her the opportunity to earn her way on or off the team. Do we want to send the strongest team to the Olympics or not????? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[trailblazer]

No one has any right to a bye. I'm sure the selectors would have given her a bye if they felt that was the best thing to do. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Weatherford]

I don't think this is about rules - this is about giving Margie the time to HEAL - which may mean her husband and owner ground her for another few months (which would be a great thing for her body's sake!)

Isn't she older than 46??

Regardless, I hope she is taking lots of Calcium & magnesium, plus some estrogen cream - all helps improve bone density...

[DMK]

Ahhh, ESG, once again, unless the point is delivered with all the subtlety of a 2X4 (quick, get me one!) it runs the risk of being missed...

1. There are those of us who are aware of MGE's age, and might still think that the 4th decade qualifies as "young" (in other words, not everything is literal).

2. Nobody suggested that we give MGE a bye if she couldn't be fit to the task before the Olympics. All reports and the words from Chapot's mouth indicated that wouldn't be an issue. If it IS an issue, that's a whole 'nuther story. But that hasn't been twhat we have been told so far. (Now maybe when she rode in the trials, she did set herself back, but that's pure speculation on our part).

3. Perin is not lolling around in a pasture. He might not be competing, but I think it's safe to say he is physically fit to the task. We already know he comes with the complete mental game, even after a layoff.

[Chappy]

The selectors told Margie before the trials that she shouldn't do the trials - they wanted her on the team but wanted to save the last bye in case something happened to one of the top contenders in the 6th round (horse falling or tack breaking). They made their mistake by not telling the riders that they were only riding for two spots. Margie repeatedly asked them to tell everyone so there wouldn't be any problems after the trials, but they told her they would handle it. Well, this is how they handled it. And, the horse and rider who made it possible for the US to even go to the Olympics are staying home. In my opinion, very political and very wrong.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Ahhh, ESG, once again, unless the point is delivered with all the subtlety of a 2X4 (quick, get me one!) it runs the risk of being missed...

Wow, that was uncalled for. I think I'm still allowed to express an opinion here without being jumped on for it.

1. There are those of us who are aware of MGE's age, and might still think that the 4th decade qualifies as "young" (in other words, not everything is literal).

Actually, since Margie is 46, she's technically in her fifth decade - as am I. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

2. Nobody suggested that we give MGE a bye if she couldn't be fit to the task before the Olympics. All reports and the words from Chapot's mouth indicated that wouldn't be an issue. If it IS an issue, that's a whole 'nuther story. But that hasn't been twhat we have been told so far. (Now maybe when she rode in the trials, she did set herself back, but that's pure speculation on our part).

Hardly speculation when she removed herself from the competition after one round and stated that she'd done further injury.

3. Perin is not lolling around in a pasture. He might not be competing, but I think it's safe to say he is physically fit to the task. We already know he comes with the complete mental game, even after a layoff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not trying to be rude, but how do you know? MGE has others riding her horses on the flat to keep them fit, true, but I doubt Perin is as jumping fit as the other horses who have been showing all season. As far as the "complete mental game" goes, that was never in question. But alas, the mind needs a body capable of doing the job. George Morris and others have commented that the US riders are the worst at keeping our horses fit over lengthy competitions. That, to me, says that Perin might possibly be laboring under even more of a disadvantage than his teammates, due to the fact that he's been rested. Again, not to say that either horse or rider doesn't deserve to go; just not this year. Margie isn't at the top of her game - end of story. Why, then, would anyone even consider giving her a spot over someone who is, and demonstrated it all throughout the trials? That was my only point. Delivered without the aid of a 2 x 4 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horsense:
What you don't seem to understand is that the rule was made for situations such as this. It states that if she doesn't show that she is in top form by July 14th they have the power to take her off and the next ranked rider is then moved up. By adding her to the team we are in essence then stacking the deck. If she isn't ready then no harm done we still have our strongest riders on top. Why not give her the opportunity to earn her way on or off the team. Do we want to send the strongest team to the Olympics or not????? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, we do. And sending our strongest team does not, IMHO, mean including a rider physically compromised and not at the top of her game and willing to go for everything she can. Not that that's ever been a problem for Margie - she's probably got bigger (hypothetical, of course) cojones than most men. But if her body won't let her, she can't, despite what her spirit would want. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think she, being the professional she is, wouldn't want to go either, if it meant compromising the team's chance for gold before they even left home.

And as far as earning a place on the team, that's what the trials were for. She didn't - so why should she go? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Chappy]

They have until 7/15 to remove or rearrange riders and horses. By then if she didn't heal completely she would be the first one to remove herself. Now, she has no chance.

[khobstetter]

One thing that has not been discussed here is the pressure on the other riders if MGE was given a bye....

I was in the rider/media tent for the entire Trials and I heard alot of just casual (and argumentative) conversations about this as we sat around the tables.

We have a great group of riders and I think we have fielded a super chance at a win in Athens....all of them are extremely capable, and yes I know we have a couple of "young" horses.

I can tell you that the riders all LOVE MGE but the main conversations ALL THE WAY THROUGH was that they wanted a physically fit ENTIRE team...including the alternates should they need to call them up!!

The Selection Committee had tough choices this time but unless we were in the middle of the table when the conversations were going on about choosing the Team, we cannot know all the details involved.

I do know the riders were VERY concerned about MGE making even the alternate and then them carrying the mental "worry" of her not being able to carry the day. That is a terrible distraction for someone going to and at the OLYMPICS!!!

They did not want to go to Athens with anything like that to worry about..they want to go ready to win. Should MGE have gotten a bye and then have trouble any where along the path (including the shows in Europe) that is a tough thing for the other riders focus.....they don't need the "worry" about MGE's ability..IMHO.

They are going over for 2 HUGE shows prior to Athens (1 middle of June, 1 middle of July) and MGE would not have been able to ride with the Team then..that was a HUGE discussion. If she can't ride for the Trials, if she can't compete in the BIG fields of Europe just prior to the Olympics....THAT PUTS TERRIBLE PRESSURE ON THE OTHER ATHLETES...

They all talked about making this a GIANT Team effort for a Medal..there is alot of desire in this particular group of riders....I KNOW there always is but the taste for a Medal is soooooooo high right now after such a drought.

Remember that most of the days are Team competitions that the entire Team is at stake...the Individual is accumulative too but does not effect a Team effort, unless the rider is one of the Team members. If a Team rider is unable after the competition starts the Team is crippled..you cannot insert the Alternate after the competition starts.

It's like losing the leg of a table you are serving dinner on...no matter how strong the other 3 legs are...the whole thing is off balance and can come crashing down if anyone makes a wrong move...

That's a concern for the other riders and they DON'T need it...........

[ESG]

In response to Chappy's post regarding the 7/15 deadline for drop/add to the team.........


Not trying to be argumentative here, but it usually takes healthy (read "first injury" here) bones at least six weeks to heal, and that's for a simple fracture. Since Margie did not have a simple fracture, and has since re-injured the same site, her recuperative powers are compromised. So this is May 26th - that leaves about six weeks for her to get back to Olympic condition on a leg that's been seriously injured twice in four months. And while Margie's accomplishments in the saddle seem almost superhuman at times, her healing powers sadly are not. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Just my opinion.......................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
One thing that has not been discussed here is the pressure on the other riders if MGE was given a bye....

I was in the rider/media tent for the entire Trials and I heard alot of just casual (and argumentative) conversations about this as we sat around the tables.

We have a great group of riders and I think we have fielded a super chance at a win in Athens....all of them are extremely capable, and yes I know we have a couple of "young" horses.

I can tell you that the riders all LOVE MGE but the main conversations ALL THE WAY THROUGH was that they wanted a physically fit ENTIRE team...including the alternates should they need to call them up!!

The Selection Committee had tough choices this time but unless we were in the middle of the table when the conversations were going on about choosing the Team, we cannot know all the details involved.

I do know the riders were VERY concerned about MGE making even the alternate and then them carrying the mental "worry" of her not being able to carry the day. That is a terrible distraction for someone going to and at the OLYMPICS!!!

They did not want to go to Athens with anything like that to worry about..they want to go ready to win. Should MGE have gotten a bye and then have trouble any where along the path (including the shows in Europe) that is a tough thing for the other riders focus.....they don't need the "worry" about MGE's ability..IMHO.

They are going over for 2 HUGE shows prior to Athens (1 middle of June, 1 middle of July) and MGE would not have been able to ride with the Team then..that was a HUGE discussion. If she can't ride for the Trials, if she can't compete in the BIG fields of Europe just prior to the Olympics....THAT PUTS TERRIBLE PRESSURE ON THE OTHER ATHLETES...

They all talked about making this a GIANT Team effort for a Medal..there is alot of desire in this particular group of riders....I KNOW there always is but the taste for a Medal is soooooooo high right now after such a drought.

Remember that most of the days are Team competitions that the entire Team is at stake...the Individual is accumulative too but does not effect a Team effort, unless the rider is one of the Team members. If a Team rider is unable after the competition starts the Team is crippled..you cannot insert the Alternate after the competition starts.

It's like losing the leg of a table you are serving dinner on...no matter how strong the other 3 legs are...the whole thing is off balance and can come crashing down if anyone makes a wrong move...

That's a concern for the other riders and they DON'T need it........... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your wonderfully insightful post. You hit all the points that have been in my mind, and made them far better than I could have. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Tackpud]

Khobstetter - thank you for your insightful words. There are so many different aspects to picking a team for any competition - not just the Olympics - and the selection committee has done a wonderful job. I'm sorry for MGE - she's a wonderful rider and competitor - but this wasn't meant to be this year.

Let's all support the fantastic team that has been selected and back them to two gold medals!

[Molly Sorge]

Hey guys... check out Margie's reaction--in her own words--at www.chronofhorse.com, (http://www.chronofhorse.com,) in the breaking news. She's got some interesting things to say.

[Calico]

Wow, that is an *ahem* enlightening article.

[tyedyecommando]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moonkitty:
Wow, that is an *ahem* enlightening article. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I thought so myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Coreene]

Somehow, somewhere, y'all just know that there was some serious effing over going on. Methinks we will hear much, much more in this saga before it's over.

[SBT]

Copying my post from the "sticky" thread:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Melinda:
The U.S. Equestrian Federation Selection Committee—Ray Texel, Lisa Jacquin and Michael Endicott—decided in a meeting this afternoon (May 25) to deny Margie Engle’s bye application for the 2004 Olympic team in Athens, Greece.

***Engle Claims The Selection Committee Wasn’t Honest With Her*** see Breaking News at http://www.chronofhorse.com/breaking_news/04/bn_may26.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow. Personally, I would have thought Margie would be a lot more gracious about this. *I* saw it coming a mile away; why couldn't she? As for Perin's owner threatening to sell all his horses and get out of the business? Way to act like a two-year-old. I mean, they have every right to be disappointed, but they act as though this decision came out of left field. I don't think it did. Margie is injured. YES, she had a clear round in Trial 1; so did a lot of other riders who went on to bomb out in 4 and 5. YES, Perin is a superhorse; but so are Sapphire, Royal Kaliber, Fein Cera, Authentic, Casanova, and Clasiko. And their riders completed the trials and are in fine physical shape.

I don't see how any other decision could have been made. To name Margie to the team on a conditional basis and "wait it out" to see how she'd do in Germany would be completely unfair to the rider(s) waiting in the wings, not knowing if they're going to the Olympics or staying home, and not getting the chance to prepare their horse(s) by showing in Europe.

It was my understanding that the only way Margie would have gotten the bye was if an extremely green horse/rider combo made the short list. That did not happen. So it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a bye was not given.

Now, on to McLain. I do feel for him, as it seems controversy follows him wherever he goes. We're wondering if he'll be allowed to compete at Aachen. I'm also wondering if his father will be allowed to watch him at the Olympics. I'm assuming so, as the Olympics do not fall under the jurisdiction of the USEF. Criminal record or not, I can't imagine any governing body would refuse to allow a father to watch his son compete in the Olympics. But perhaps someone else has more information on this than I do?

Finally, my sincerest congratulations to everyone on the Team: Chris, Beezie, Peter, McLain, Alison, and Lauren, you and your horses are the greatest gold-medal hope US showjumping has had in a very long time. I know you will do us proud. Best of luck to you in Germany, and then Athens!

[Weatherford]

Ah, but the Olympics are under FEI auspices, and thus recognize USEF jurisdiction.

I am sorry if I offend anyone, but I do not feel sorry for BW having to watch his son at the Olympics on TV - he doesn't deserve more...

The horses he ordered killed do.

However, as a Moderator, I will ask you NOT to turn this into another BW trashing thread!

The comments from here in Ireland are, STRONG TEAM!!! SO GO USA!!! (Well, GO IRELAND, TOO!!!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[findeight]

And strong team, go USA, means what have you done lately?

I remember seeing tape of a century's best songwriter....grieve I cannot remember his name. He wrote Oh How I Hate to Get Up in the Morning and Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy of Company B.

As he lay on his death bed he said, "but what have I done lately"?

As it is with any rider, what have you done this year???
And MGE Has to say little or nothing..so is properly left off the team.


But I pray fervently that PETA doesn't picket the venues and more lawsuits are not filed to let a convicted felon, barred from the premises, watch the son he supported by killing horses.


This is potentionally a real public relations nightmare and I have no idea how I will defend that "Up close and Personal" with the father killing horses for, insurance and banned from seeing his son...and, in this case, I have no defense.

Oh my, what are we going to put forth here????

[JustJump]

&lt;&lt;But I pray fervently that PETA doesn't picket the venues and more lawsuits are not filed to let a convicted felon, barred from the premises, watch the son he supported by killing horses. This is potentionally a real public relations nightmare and I have no idea how I will defend that "Up close and Personal" with the father killing horses for, insurance and banned from seeing his son...and, in this case, I have no defense.&gt;&gt;

Oh brother. Give it a rest already. The guy served a JAIL sentence (one of only a handful to do so). I doubt anyone is actually going to ASK you to go to bat for him, or for the sport. (Hint: you can always say, "Well, he did actually go to JAIL, and he is banned from the sport.)

Congratulations to a fine team, we can be proud of them ALL!

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Ah, but the Olympics are under FEI auspices, and thus recognize USEF jurisdiction.

I am sorry if I offend anyone, but I do not feel sorry for BW having to watch his son at the Olympics on TV - he doesn't deserve more...

The horses he ordered killed do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, thank you for posting that! I was afraid that BW would be able to get around the USEF sanctions because of the venue.

And FWIW, I agree completely with you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[lauriep]

And I'm quite sure, that with all the other security risks involved with going to Athens, they will have some official on the lookout for BW at the stadium! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Geeze! C'mon people, let's look at the big picture a little! All the athletes who go to Athens are in potentially a huge amount of danger. Is BW sitting in the stands REALLY such a big deal in comparison???

More probably, getting a visa to travel to Athens will be a problem for him. But I'm in the "give it a rest, already" camp; if they don't want to allow him ever to show again, fine. But to be a spectator, in the stands, to watch his son, is a whole 'nother matter, and I have absolutely no problem with it.

[satin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:

But I pray fervently that PETA doesn't picket the venues and more lawsuits are not filed to let a convicted felon, barred from the premises, watch the son he supported by killing horses.


This is potentionally a real public relations nightmare and I have no idea how I will defend that "Up close and Personal" with the father killing horses for, insurance and banned from seeing his son...and, in this case, I have no defense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if we're riding the derailed train of thoughts, what kind of wine would recommend for the occasion?

[DMK]

While I'm no fan of BW, I have to agree Laurie - with Al Qaida looking for prime real estate in Athens, I would say BW is far down on the list of MY worries!

The spector of Munich weighs far more heavily on my mind right now than anything else... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[DMK]

flour, unlike Pocket Trainer, I suspect quantity over quality would be the recommendation!

[SGray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:....Not trying to be argumentative here, but it usually takes healthy (read "first injury" here) bones at least six weeks to heal, and that's for a simple fracture. Since Margie did not have a simple fracture, and has since re-injured the same site, her recuperative powers are compromised. So this is May 26th - that leaves about six weeks for her to get back to Olympic condition on a leg that's been seriously injured twice in four months. And while Margie's accomplishments in the saddle seem almost superhuman at times, her healing powers sadly are not. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Just my opinion.......................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

agreed -- which is why the selectors should have stood up and said "There is no way that you could be 100% for the Games and we don't want one of our best riders to risk her future by getting in the saddle too soon and possibly compromising her healing. With the hope of having you healthy for the next Olympics and with our thanks to you and Mr. Pulaski for being instrumental in getting to this one, we must now issue our official decision that you will not be in consideration for this year's Team."

[ESG]

Yes, they should have. But if you read Ray Texcel's response to Margie's diatribe, you'll see that they might indeed have. It wouldn't be the first time someone's been told one thing and heard another, methinks.

Also, unless I've been at the cooking sherry again and completely mis-remember, wasn't Margie (with Perin) actually on the non-medal winning team at Sydney? So perhaps she may not be the catalyst some believe necessary for us to come home with gold? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Just a thought..................... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[khobstetter]

ESG...well said....

[DMK]

On the topic of Margie's fitness, this certainly was an interesting quote from Nancy Jaffer (Equisearch.com):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Selectors got a glimpse of it in the first trial, where a valiant but hurting Engle bravely got her horse around without a single fault. Fearing further damage to her leg after sustaining torn tissue, however, she sat out the rest of the trials, hoping the selectors would listen to the U.S. team doctor, Craig Ferrell--who said he believed she'd be ready for major competition by June--and put her on the squad. "They (the selectors) told me they didn't want me to continue," in the trials, she said. But when it came to her chances for being named to the squad, "they were very vague as far as a yes or no," she added. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for MGE and Perin in the last Olympics, IIRC, she was the highest place American. Now horses who have surgery just before they get on the plane and aren't sound when they land are a whole 'nuther kettle of fish, but hopefully we won't repeat that mistake!

[poltroon]

I think the assumption that if a bye was used, that Margie should get it, is a little presumptuous.

Yes, she's terrific, as is Perrin - but a lot of terrific pairs finished below 3rd, and did the whole trials.

If the top three riders had been novices, and say rider #5 had been Fein Cera and Peter, I would've wanted the selection committee to use them for a bye before Margie.

[DMK]

poltroon, I totally agree that it shouldn't be a given. And aside from the issue of better communications between all parties, which is a separate issue, what we ended up with is a team with 3 very solid riders, and a 4th slot with a solid rider (who may or may not be able to compete in Aachen) on a horse that is very talented, but any way you cut it, is still very, very green at the international level. Anyone remember the short career of Irish?

While I won't sell short Sapphire's talents, it's worth noting that her only clean rounds were 1 and 2, and 15 faults overall isn't stellar up against the rest of Europe. And assuming she won't have Aachen to gain some experience, well, it's even more of a gamble.

But if we take the Team's own doctor at face value, supposedly MGE would be ready a full month before Europe, and two months before Athens. We know Perin handles the Nation's cup format extremely well, we know MGE doesn't choke when the pressure is on, and we know we could have replaced her with the alternate as late as mid July if things didn't go to plan. In a good and gracious moment, that alternate could well have been McLain. In another moment, it would be the current alternate, Alison.

So the way I see it, both options are a gamble, but under the limitations of the current system, this latter method just represented a gamble with a hell of a lot more options for the team.

[ESG]

The Team doctor must have some tricks up his sleeve that he hasn't told anyone about for healing bones quickly then. Do the math, people - bones don't knit faster just because a USET doctor says they will - especially if it's a second injury. As for the "torn tissue" that she admittedly sustained during the Trial she did compete in, that takes even longer to heal (without surgical intervention, of course) than broken bones! I think I'd like to know what the Team doctor's been smoking, so I can have some too when I want a little break from reality. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

As for MGE, she should know better, too. This isn't exactly the first time she's broken a bone or been laid off, even though it's probably the most severe. She's been able to ignore a lot of pain from her injuries and compete successfully, and she of course has that right.......as an individual. But to knowingly compromise the strength of the team just because she wants to be a part of it, and then get pi$$y when the selectors won't let her? I did truly think her more of a sportsman (and a realist) than that..............http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[DMK]

I'm sticking with the idea that the team doctor is a damn site more qualified than someone who does not have an MD behind their name.

He might be right, he might not, but it's a given he comes to the table with more knowledge and training than us.

[ESG]

Well, he evidently goofed this time, didn't he? Or is Margie riding and no one told us? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[khobstetter]

Why won't Sapphire have Aachen..??

And, just for my own information...those who are posting what the Doctor "said"...did you hear it FROM HIS LITTLE MOUTH YOURSELF????? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But if we take the Team's own doctor at face value, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just WHO did he say it to,,,,,,and WHO heard it, straight from his mouth, THEMSELVES???

ESG and Poltoon...well said. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[ESG]

Sapphire won't have Aachen because McLain was barred from showing there after his conviction for allegedly cheating at the World Cup a few years back. Something about plastic chips under the front boots on his horse, I believe. He appealed, but was barred anyway. I doubt the folks at Aachen will suspend his suspension just because he wants to show with the USET there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

As for MGE and Perin in the last Olympics, IIRC, she was the highest place American. _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, they were. And that was four years ago and they were both healthy, four years younger and at the top of their game......or so one would assume. That's not the case now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
[QUOTE] Selectors got a glimpse of it in the first trial, where a valiant but hurting Engle bravely got her horse around without a single fault. Fearing further damage to her leg after sustaining torn tissue, however, she sat out the rest of the trials, hoping the selectors would listen to the U.S. team doctor, Craig Ferrell--who said he believed she'd be ready for major competition by June--and put her on the squad. "They (the selectors) told me they didn't want me to continue," in the trials, she said. But when it came to her chances for being named to the squad, "they were very vague as far as a yes or no," she added. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"They didn't want me to continue" and "they were very vague as far as a yes or no". Now I don't know about the rest of you, but if the selectors had said these things to me, I'd have the distinct impression that they were trying to tell me that I was basically hosed, that I wouldn't be going to Athens.

Maybe it's just me................... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[khobstetter]

ESG..check you PT's

[khobstetter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They didn't want me to continue" and "they were very vague as far as a yes or no". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just how cold this be construed as a "bye" for the Team is in the pocket, or even an implication that there would be one for her...?????

Why all the fuss...there was no quarantee, and no insinuation, according to her own quote (see above)..

Let's get on with a YIPPEE WAHOO for a SUPER Team that stands a GREAT chance at GOLD!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[DMK]

khobby, surely as a self professed child of the "founder of modern journalism", you appreciate a sourced and cited quote?

Now you all can argue all day long as to whether the doctor is qualified to do his job, whether he was smoking crack, or whether she would or would not be ready in time for Europe, but I'm just sticking with what has shown up in the printed media so far. It too may be incorrect, but when it comes down to that or ESG practicing medicine from the internet, all things considered, I'd still rather take my chances with the team MD.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

As for MGE and Perin in the last Olympics, IIRC, she was the highest place American. _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, they were. And that was four years ago and they were both healthy, four years younger and at the top of their game......or so one would assume. That's not the case now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, sad to say, even the best American performance in Sydney added up to a lot of rails. Which is why the US team had to qualify for Athens.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Now you all can argue all day long as to whether the doctor is qualified to do his job, whether he was smoking crack, or whether she would or would not be ready in time for Europe, but I'm just sticking with what has shown up in the printed media so far. It too may be incorrect, but when it comes down to that or ESG practicing medicine from the internet, all things considered, I'd still rather take my chances with the team MD. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now who's smoking crack? Whoever said I was practicing medicine? All I said that MGE has broken enough bones to know how long they take to heal. Hell, I have, and I can add too, which is evidently a skill MGE is either not gifted with or choosing not to practice. I've also had surgery to put in screws and plates, and replace ligaments, and I know how long it took to heal from those things, too. Don't need an MD for that. I also perhaps have a little more information on orthopedics and healing times from different procedures since I used to type operative reports on people who've had surgeries like MGE's and my own. Learn a lot doing that, let me tell you. And no, I wouldn't presume to practice medicine of any sort based on my experiences as described above, in case that concerns you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DMK]

OK, not so much practicing medicine, but openly mocking the physician and his judgement on her condition. In either case, I'd pass, thank you very much.

[ESG]

D, are you deliberately being obtuse or just such an MGE fan that you can't stand to see her criticized? And if you've been paying attention at all to what you've been writing, you'll see it's not my judgement that matters in this case; it's the selectors. And I happen to agree with their decision. Sorry if that bothers you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And as far as "mocking the physician", I didn't do that either. He said she'd be fit by June. She isn't. Apparently, he was wrong. How is that mocking, pray? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Is BW sitting in the stands REALLY such a big deal in comparison???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It might be, if one of the horses he had killed was yours. The USEF was right to bar him, and to continue to bar him. What do you expect them to say; "Oh, since your son made the Olympic team, all bets are off and you can go and watch!"?!?!?!? Yeah, right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[JustJump]

&lt;&lt;I doubt the folks at Aachen will suspend his suspension just because he wants to show with the USET there&gt;&gt;

Want to bet on that one?

ESG: that is a pretty bitterly vindictive statement. So what horse of YOURS did he kill? And if you aren't one of those people, how is it you feel called upon to speak for them?

[khobstetter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>khobby, surely as a self professed child of the "founder of modern journalism", you appreciate a sourced and cited quote?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HEY DuMpK....I love a fan....thanks for following me so close.

Obviously YOU want a different consideration than you give the rest of us...you want to state whatever YOU want to and "appreciate a sourced and cited quote" as YOUR source of information YOU cite as factual...BUT you have done nothing but ridicule me and several others and take personal potshots at ANY of us if we do the same!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif tsk tsk tsk

WOW seems you live by different rules and you change them as YOU wish....good for you..makes your world nice for you.

Poltroon and ESG...good opinions and right on!!
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustJump:
&lt;&lt;I doubt the folks at Aachen will suspend his suspension just because he wants to show with the USET there&gt;&gt;

Want to bet on that one?

ESG: that is a pretty bitterly vindictive statement. So what horse of YOURS did he kill? And if you aren't one of those people, how is it you feel called upon to speak for them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm, I think you have your wires crossed. McLain didn't kill anything; his father did. The above quote you took out of context refers to McLain's suspension from Aachen for allegedly cheating. Two entirely different situations. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And what's vindictive about the truth? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[lauriep]

Well, ESG, you certainly pulled THAT quote right out of context, as usual for you. What I said was that 1) even LOCATING BW in the stands in a foreign country with thousands of spectators will be, um a tad difficult and 2) relative to the REAL danger our horses and riders will be facing in in these times, at a major event on foreign soil, who the f***cares if BW spectates, should he be able to get a visa? Sorry, it doesn't even equate in importance.

Having things in perspective is a GOOD thing. And I stand by my OPINION.

Oh, and BTW, I'd love to know your inside sources that tell you they KNOW that Aachen is standing by the suspension so that "Sapphire won't have Aachen." Are you privy to conversations between our Federation and Aachen's organizers?

[DMK]

No khobby, I have merely called you on your post that had all sorts of declarations about her fitness to ride in time for the Olympics, and pointed out that unless one was the doctor at hand, one couldn't possibly know such things. In fact, up to now, the only information I have seen in print indicates she would be ready to go - this from Chapot and the team doctor. Whether they were incorrectly quoted in those pieces, I don't know. But at the very least I wasn't making it up on the fly.

As for ESG not mocking the doctor, no, I guess not. She just said he must have been smoking crack when he said she should be ready to go by June. Note to self - see what mock mode looks like for important distinction.

And as for her obviously not being ready to ride in June, I don't know that we can say that either, as a) it is not yet "June" (and to be technical, it has a few weeks before it ceases to be June), b) the last time we saw MGE ride in public it was the middle of May, c) she was riding prior to that time and d) she may or may not have set her recovery back by that ride, but I don't know if any of us know that. I do know that "tearing muscle tissue" in the PT phase of recovery is pretty much an expected part of the process. But there are good tears and bad tears - I haven't a clue which happened and if that had any impact on the outcome. Here's guessing you don't either.

I have no problem with the committee making ANY decision about this team, and I support them wholeheartedly. But if you say that she should not have been picked because she would not be ready in time, you need to back it up with something other than your opinion in order to be credible. And so far there has been exactly zero of that.

As for the committee's decision, my sole comments on that were limited to the fact that if there was a misunderstanding, miscommunication, misrepresentation, it shouldn't be swept uner the rug and tidied over - it should be met head on and be put out in the open. Then hopefully we can improve the selection process enough to get the right degree of flexibility. Sorry, but we need the best selection process we can get, and I can't be too upset at anything that stands in that way. If MGE had not said a peep, do you think people would seriously be considering the flaws of the bye system that only applies to the 3/4th slot, but NOT the alternates?

While others may say that Margie is whining about not getting on the team, I don't agree. I think she has been up front about wishing the team well, and separating this issue from that one.

My only real opinion on this matter is that yes, I think MGE and Perin as the 4th slot for the team represented the best option, especially knowing we could replace them with MW or Alison as late as what - July 27? - that seemed a fairly safe option to me. If we didn't have that flexibility, and we were locked in now, then yes, I would have serious doubts. But we are going to Europe with 2 alternates in any event, we actually had wiggle room on this issue. However, the selectors had a different view. That's cool. It's a given they know more than me on this topic. However I suspect equally knowledgeable people as the selctors could argue the other side as well. It wasn't an easy decision either way, and I don't envy them their job.

And khobby, I totally have to 'fess up - I'm sorry, I never actually saw the thread/quote in question, it was just retold to me by several others. But I will definitely pass on your appreciation of their fan club.

[ESG]

I agree that in the grand scheme of things, BW killing a few horses for insurance money and international terrorism are not equally noteworthy. That doesn't mean that BW should be allowed to flout the suspension under which he remains. Also, I suspect that locating anyone "suspicious" (as BW or any other sort of terrorist) won't be that difficult, if one is to believe the reports about security. I can't believe the stands are that vast that they can't be patrolled. Personally, Athens is the last place on earth I'd want to be (I remember Munich all too well) this summer, and I applaud the courage of all the athletes and spectators who will attend the Games. I just don't think BW should be one of them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for getting a visa, I doubt that's an issue. He's under suspension from USEF (and by extension, FEI) competitions, not forbidden to leave the country. The two have nothing to do with each other. Unless, of course, someone in control of issuing passports & visas owned a horse that fell victim to BW. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Oh, and BTW, I'd love to know your inside sources that tell you they KNOW that Aachen is standing by the suspension so that "Sapphire won't have Aachen." Are you privy to conversations between our Federation and Aachen's organizers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you'd read for comprehension, you'd see that DMK was the one who originally stated that Sapphire won't have Aachen. I happen to agree (amazingly) and understand from what I read at the time of the Aachen inciden that since, when McLain was suspended from competing there, he would never have the privilege of competing there again. I doubt that his inclusion in the Olympic team would do anything to change that. If someone has other information, please share it with us. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[lauriep]

Well, from what I am told by people that DO know, MW wrote a letter of apology to Aachen over a year ago, it was accepted, and he can compete there.

I don't think that the security at Aachen will be looking for BW. They will have much more important people to be looking for.

Many countries won't issue a visa to a felon.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
And as for her obviously not being ready to ride in June, I don't know that we can say that either, as a) it is not yet "June" (and to be technical, it has a few weeks before it ceases to be June), b) the last time we saw MGE ride in public it was the middle of May, c) she was riding prior to that time and d) she may or may not have set her recovery back by that ride, but I don't know if any of us know that.

Okay, let's see; the last time we saw MGE ride was at the selection trials May 14. She withdrew after one round. If you'd look at the ENTIRE quote you used, you'd see that she tore ligaments. SHE said so. So that would lead me to surmise that we DO infact know that. To our knowledge she didn't have surgery. So this is two weeks ago. And the USET doctor reportedly (reported by MGE, that is) says she'll be "fit" (NOT ready to ride, Olympic fit) by June. My, he WAS smoking something funny, wasn't he? Either that, or he's convinced that MGE isn't subject to the same healing schedule as the rest of us mere humans. Or MGE wants so badly to go to Athens that she heard what she wanted to hear.


I do know that "tearing muscle tissue" in the PT phase of recovery is pretty much an expected part of the process. But there are good tears and bad tears - I haven't a clue which happened and if that had any impact on the outcome. Here's guessing you don't either.

I think you're wrong on this. In fact, I know you are. Tearing muscle tissue is NOT part of PT - unless you're the Marquis de Sade. Proper PT is designed to KEEP muscle tissue from tearing and to rebuild strength after surgery or injury. And torn ligaments rarely heal without surgery, especially when subjected to repeated stresses.


I have no problem with the committee making ANY decision about this team, and I support them wholeheartedly. But if you say that she should not have been picked because she would not be ready in time, you need to back it up with something other than your opinion in order to be credible. And so far there has been exactly zero of that.

As I said before, you either haven't been paying attention to what you've been reading (and quoting) or are simply refusing to acknowledge it. No one tears ligaments and is Olympic fit two weeks (or even six weeks) after the injury. I've torn ligaments. I've had surgeries to repair them. I've had more PT than you can shake a stick at to get back to where I was prior to surgery (and that wasn't Olympic fit by a long shot!), and I say no one, not even MGE, can tear soft tissue and be in Olympic form six weeks later. I've typed op reports for years by many surgeons that say the same thing. I've personally been through the process. I have context. That's what makes me think that either the Team doctor is a quack or MGE misinterpreted what he said. I strongly suspect (and sincerely hope) for the sake of the rest of the team, that it's the latter.

As for the committee's decision, my sole comments on that were limited to the fact that if there was a misunderstanding, miscommunication, misrepresentation, it shouldn't be swept uner the rug and tidied over - it should be met head on and be put out in the open.

So, did Ray Texcel's response to Margie's comments not mean anything to you? Or did you read it?

Then hopefully we can improve the selection process enough to get the right degree of flexibility.

So that your choice of riders gets on the team next time? What's wrong with the current set of guidelines? I'm dying to know.......................



Sorry, but we need the best selection process we can get, and I can't be too upset at anything that stands in that way. If MGE had not said a peep, do you think people would seriously be considering the flaws of the bye system that only applies to the 3/4th slot, but NOT the alternates?

And why, in your opinion, is it "flawed"? Just because Margie can't go? If it were another rider making a fuss, would you care?

While others may say that Margie is whining about not getting on the team, I don't agree. I think she has been up front about wishing the team well, and separating this issue from that one.

Forgive me, but I find it difficult to view her as gracious when she A) shows her sponsor and owner in such an unflattering light over what was probably a momentary expression of disappointment, and B) casts accusations of being misled and "sucker punched" by the selection committe.


My only real opinion on this matter is that yes, I think MGE and Perin as the 4th slot for the team represented the best option, especially knowing we could replace them with MW or Alison as late as what - July 27? - that seemed a fairly safe option to me.

Actually, according to Chappy's post, it was July 15th that was the deadline. Bit short notice for someone to mentally prep themselves for the task at hand.

If we didn't have that flexibility, and we were locked in now, then yes, I would have serious doubts. But we are going to Europe with 2 alternates in any event, we actually had wiggle room on this issue. However, the selectors had a different view. That's cool. It's a given they know more than me on this topic. However I suspect equally knowledgeable people as the selctors could argue the other side as well. It wasn't an easy decision either way, and I don't envy them their job.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Well, from what I am told by people that DO know, MW wrote a letter of apology to Aachen over a year ago, it was accepted, and he can compete there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Did anyone see anything in the news about it? I'd say that was pretty noteworthy not to have something published about it. Can you direct us to any websites or publications that might say for sure?

[Magnolia]

So our team is:
Chris Kappler - on a phenomonal horse -

Beezie Madden - Seasoned competitor, great horses

McLain Ward - always up there in the AGA winner standings, horse has a heart

Peter Wylde on a World Cup top finishing horse

4 GREAT pairs, who can hold their own. It's not like you look at any of those and wonder about their abilities, and they all proved themselves through the same hard work that Margie has. So, we could replace greatness with greatness, but why?

If I saw inexperienced riders up there, yeah, replace one with Margie - but those are solid riders. We are lucky to have enough depth to field a great team when we have injured riders.

[rileyt]

Good point Magnolia... and one that I think has gotten lost in the shuffle.

[lauriep]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Well, from what I am told by people that DO know, MW wrote a letter of apology to Aachen over a year ago, it was accepted, and he can compete there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Did anyone see anything in the news about it? I'd say that was pretty noteworthy not to have something published about it. Can you direct us to any websites or publications that might say for sure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, and why would they? If it wasn't done under the auspices of the USEF/USET, but by McLain himself, why would there be any fanfare. My source has been on the inner circle for 30+ years; I trust their information implicitly.

[Palisades]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Then hopefully we can improve the selection process enough to get the right degree of flexibility.

_So that your choice of riders gets on the team next time? What's wrong with the current set of guidelines? I'm dying to know......................._



Sorry, but we need the best selection process we can get, and I can't be too upset at anything that stands in that way. If MGE had not said a peep, do you think people would seriously be considering the flaws of the bye system that only applies to the 3/4th slot, but NOT the alternates?

_And why, in your opinion, is it "flawed"? Just because Margie can't go? If it were another rider making a fuss, would you care?_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What part of this did you not get? DMK's issue is not that Margie specifically didn't get on the team, but that the selection criteria only allows the bye to replace the 3rd or 4th rider, but not the alternates. That means a rider who placed 5th in the trials is guaranteed a spot on the plane to Athens, while riders who placed ahead of them can potentially be replaced. To have the 5th rider untouchable strikes me as a little odd, as well. There may be very good reasons for it, but it also sounds like Ray Texel thinks it needs to be revamped. At the least, that means that there should be some discussion on the merits of that selection policy. What DMK was pointing out was that without Margie's complaints, this part of the process could have gone without scrutiny.

It's not about getting a specific rider onto the team, it's about giving the selection committee the freedom to distribute byes that this newly redesigned process was supposed to guarantee.

[lauriep]

Beautifully said, Palisades.

[DMK]

Why Palisades, I think you got it. It wasn't like I thought it was a complex point, but I was beginning to wonder! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If I was on a reading for comprehension jag I might point out that ESG's statement about ligament damage:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As I said before, you either haven't been paying attention to what you've been reading (and quoting) or are simply refusing to acknowledge it. No one tears ligaments and is Olympic fit two weeks (or even six weeks) after the injury. I've torn ligaments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stands in stark contrast to what has been reported:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Engle stated last night that she felt she’d done some soft-tissue damage to the leg in the area of the break. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> “It’s definitely sore,” Engle said of her left leg after her round. “When I got off, I definitely felt like I had done some damage. I don’t think I rebroke it, but I think there’s some muscle tearing.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I am not sure why ESG thinks it is the more serious issue of ligament damage. As for PT being the process of avoiding muscle tears? Only the bad ones! The process of building muscle strength, fitness and flexibility is the process of creating microtears and healing - that is a big part of why getting fit hurts.

And if I didn't think that LaurieP was fairly good at reading for comprehension herself, I would feel compelled to point out that ESG's statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you'd read for comprehension, you'd see that DMK was the one who originally stated that Sapphire won't have Aachen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shows a lack of reading for comprehension as what I said was:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...what we ended up with is a team with 3 very solid riders, and a 4th slot with a solid rider (who may or may not be able to compete in Aachen) on a horse that is very talented, but any way you cut it, is still very, very green at the international level. Anyone remember the short career of Irish?

While I won't sell short Sapphire's talents, it's worth noting that her only clean rounds were 1 and 2, and 15 faults overall isn't stellar up against the rest of Europe. And assuming she won't have Aachen to gain some experience, well, it's even more of a gamble. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Laurie's always shown an aptitude for these things, so I am pretty sure she got it right the first time.

And really, I would have gone into all these things, but a fellow BB'er, far wiser than me, told me that (and I quote, because it's all the rage for this post): "You just can't argue with those two. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience..."

OK, after I stopped laughing, I realized she was a very wise person, and I would heed her most excellent advice! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Coreene]

Okay, so here's a question. If he has constantly maintained that he was innocent, then what was he apologizing for? Just a thought.

[Weatherford]

Magnolia -

Peter's Horse (Fein Cera) was the BEST HORSE at the WORLD Championships - Peter won the Bronze medal - not JUST a WC finalist... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

She is WONNNERFUL!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Cantered around the World CHampionship courses like a HUNTER!!! And did that for ALL the riders!

GO PETER!!!

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Well, from what I am told by people that DO know, MW wrote a letter of apology to Aachen over a year ago, it was accepted, and he can compete there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Did anyone see anything in the news about it? I'd say that was pretty noteworthy not to have something published about it. Can you direct us to any websites or publications that might say for sure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like the rabid Bush-haters, the MW haters are not noted for being fair...

[Duffy]

I am not a MW hater, and I like to think that I'm more than fair. I hadn't heard anything about MW's being allowed back at Aachen. But, I believe lauriep, so I will take her word based on her sources. (I also like to think the that Selection Committee would have already researched this part.)

My "benevolence" does not reach to MW's father though.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Well, from what I am told by people that DO know, MW wrote a letter of apology to Aachen over a year ago, it was accepted, and he can compete there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Did anyone see anything in the news about it? I'd say that was pretty noteworthy not to have something published about it. Can you direct us to any websites or publications that might say for sure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like the rabid Bush-haters, the MW haters are not noted for being fair... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said anything about hating MW? I don't. I just want to know if there's anything in print that confirms that MW will be able to compete at Aachen. Since his suspension made such news, I would think that his re-instatement as a welcome competitor at Aachen would at least merit a mention. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palisades:

What part of this did you not get? DMK's issue is not that Margie specifically didn't get on the team, but that the selection criteria only allows the bye to replace the 3rd or 4th rider, but not the alternates. That means a rider who placed 5th in the trials is guaranteed a spot on the plane to Athens, while riders who placed ahead of them can potentially be replaced.
To have the 5th rider untouchable strikes me as a little odd, as well. There may be very good reasons for it, but it also sounds like Ray Texel thinks it needs to be revamped.

Funny, I didn't get that at all from Ray Texel's comments. He said that based on the current system, the committee made the best decision they could. Nowhere in that article does it say that he thinks the system should be revamped. Or if you'd like to point out to me where he DID say that, I'd appreciate it.


At the least, that means that there should be some discussion on the merits of that selection policy. What DMK was pointing out was that without Margie's complaints, this part of the process could have gone without scrutiny.

And my point is that Ray's comments did not, IMO, indicate that he thought the system needed revamping - only that with the current system in place, there was no way they could put Margie on the team.

It's not about getting a specific rider onto the team, it's about giving the selection committee the freedom to distribute byes that this newly redesigned process was supposed to guarantee. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless I missed a major point, the committee could still have given her a bye; they just chose not to. They said that the only reason they'd have used a bye would be if one of the horse/rider combinations were too young or green. But the way the team developed, the bye was not necessary. They had it; they CHOSE not to use it.

[ESG]

Oh, you didn't quote this? It appears you left this part out on your quoting spree.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
was an interesting quote from Nancy Jaffer (Equisearch.com):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Selectors got a glimpse of it in the first trial, where a valiant but hurting Engle bravely got her horse around without a single fault. Fearing further damage to her leg <span class="ev_code_RED">after sustaining torn tissue,</span>, however, she sat out the rest of the trials, hoping the selectors would listen to the U.S. team doctor, Craig Ferrell--who said he believed she'd be ready for major competition by June--and put her on the squad. "They (the selectors) told me they didn't want me to continue," in the trials, she said. But when it came to her chances for being named to the squad, "they were very vague as far as a yes or no," she added. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So according to your quote, she DID sustain "torn tissue". And since bone does not tear, one can only assume this is soft tissue, either tendinous or ligamentous. And I re-iterate, these injuries do not heal in two to six weeks. If you choose to believe otherwise, as obviously you do, fine. Still doesn't make MGE or anyone else heal any faster. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[SoEasy]

Muscle doesn't tear? Or you don't think muscle is soft tissue?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[satin]

I've typed lots of reports about wanting to hold hands with Johnny Depp. Wonder whether that makes me an expert on the Depster. Methinks so.

Wouldn't you assume that Dr. Craig Ferrell would have greater knowledge of MGE's injury - than, say ESG? Don't ya kinda, sorta, wanta think that, if it was a torn tissue, he kinda, sorta knew that -- and based on his medical expertise, which assumedly involved med school, if he was still able to make his prognosis for a June recovery, isn't that a judgement more credible than those bandied about by others on this thread?

Of course, if this whole tangent's about superior knowledge on the basis of medical reports typed and gossip purportedly overhead, well, mea culpa. In which case, please do remember that I am the supreme global expert on the Depster and I was once in a media tent with Christiane Amanpour who dished about Arafat. I think.

[BLBGP]

I had a picture of Johnny Depp kissing my friend's little fluffy puppy. I lost it when the computer gurus thought my computer crashed when really there was a just a short in the printer cable. I used to look at that picture and wish I was that puppy. Sigh......

[dogchushu]

Oh come on now ESG, do you really think the recovery time for an elite athlete isn't different from that of the rest of us? Or that somehow only by reading Margie "sustained torn tissue" that you can adequately diagnose what that injury is, how severe it is, and how long it will take to recover?

Elite athletes compete after injuries all the time. They recover quicker than the rest of us probably because 1) they're in better shape to start with, 2) unlike those of us who have to schedule doctor visits, physical therapy appointments, and exercise around jobs etc., they can devote themselves to recovery, and 3) they have access to some of the best sports medecine professionals out there.

Hey, I don't think Margie should have gotten the bye, but I'm not about to presume to know better than her doctors and say she won't be physically ready come the Olympics.

[Ghazzu]

I admire MGE. She's got grit. She maybe can heal faster than mere mortals, but the bottom line is that she's injured now. Maybe she will be fit by Athens, but again, maybe not.

Since there are other horse and rider combinations who are currently fit and healthy, I don't blame the selectors for going with them.
IT's enough of a gamble as it is.

[DMK]

No, no, ESG... I conceded if I continued with this argument, you would drag me down to your level and beat me with experience. I understand that now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Besides, I have to clean my keyboard off. It wasn't pretty when I learned that muscle tissue was just recently excluded from the soft tissue category. Alert the AMA! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[lauriep]

DMK,

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[horsense]

While I think all of your constructive comments are great. I think some people are missing the point of what MGE was trying to say in her interview. The gist of the article was to have better communication between everyone involved and to make something positive (out of a negative situation) by trying to improve the selection procedures. She never said anything negative about any members of the team, only about how she was mislead by the committee. The Selectors said they wanted to see Perin compete in 2004 so he competed in the warm-up the day before the trials and then again the next day where he not only went clean but he ended up being the leading qualifier after that round. Let's remember that he's no stranger to our Trials system. He won the Olympic Trials in 2000 and repeated that feat in 2003 at the Pan American Games Trials. Last year the Selectors had granted Lauren Hough a bye after two rounds setting a precedent for this very scenario. No one is disputing that the selection committee was in a tough spot but by not dealing with the problem in advance they made their situation more difficult.

As far as everyone playing TV doctor, as a friend of MGE's, I know for a fact the USOC doctor (who does have a medical degree) was kept informed about the injury from the moment it happened and was being sent radiographs, had continuous communication with her surgeon and examined her himself. He told the committee she would be healed by the end of June to early July should she continue with the recovery plan that was set out for her by her doctors. Since none of us have a crystal ball ( or, at least, are not sharing) if she and Perin did not seem up to the task the criteria had a perfect out, giving the Chef d'Equipe the power to take her off the team up to July 14th. Again, do we want the best team now or in August closer to the Olympics?

As a friend I know for a fact MGE did not disclose all that was said to her as it would only arouse more negativity and harm any possible future communications. IMHO MGE is trying to react in a positive way by trying to do the right thing and help improve the selection procedure for the future. I think it takes great courage to tell her story, which is only part of what goes on behind closed doors, and then to try to make a change that may benefit all of our athletes. It is very hard to fix something without looking at all the parts and trying to decide which are damaged and which just don't belong. Let's try and fix the problem so it never happens again. I think Katie Prudent said it right in Horse International: "Shame on America if they keep the number one Horse /Rider combination off our Olympic Team because they are not ready to do the Trials" three months before the Olympics.

PS: DMK - I love your humor and your mere mortal look at the facts kind of thinking. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horsense:
PS: DMK - I love your humor and your mere mortal look at the facts kind of thinking. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Chestnut Manure]

I'm glad DMK and CP have finally figured out that they are aligned with each other. Now the planets can go back to their regular orbits.

[lauriep]

And that somebody certainly isn't you, Dawn Mills. Do you EVER post a positive, or even friendly, post?

[Chestnut Manure]

I'm always positive, just like you!

[lauriep]

Oh, yeah, you have been around long enough to have read all my posts.

At least I don't hide behind anonymity when I do post. It's so easy to express opinions and beat up on people when you don't have the guts to stand behind what you say.

[Palisades]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Texel stated that naming Engle as an alternate wasn’t an option for the committee. “It’s a great idea, and I’m firmly behind that type of idea for sure; however the criteria does not allow for that.

“It clearly states that the riders in the third and fourth position are open to be replaced by subjective use. Technically, Alison finished fourth, but Chris took that position, and she ended up as the alternate. You do not have the choice to put a person in the alternate position. You can only displace the third or fourth person.

“That would have been more of our desire to do that for Margie, but there was no allowance for that in the criteria as they were written. If that’s an oversight, it’s something to be considered for future selection trials. We were in a very difficult place–she was either on the team or off the team,” Texel explained. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about you, ESG, but to me it sounds like Ray said pretty clearly that he would like the selection criteria reexamined and that, had they had the option, Margie would have gotten the alternate spot.

[khobstetter]

lauriep..

And I would say what you said about DMK who you stood up for...maybe Dawn Mills and DMK can come clean with their identity,,,,,maybe not http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I am like you, I don't hide either...if you expect Dawn MIlls to come out into the light, maybe she can drag DMK along too... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Chestnut Manure]

DMK has no identity. Thats why she hides behind her status as a preferreed poster... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palisades:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Texel stated that naming Engle as an alternate wasn’t an option for the committee. “It’s a great idea, and I’m firmly behind that type of idea for sure; however the criteria does not allow for that.

“It clearly states that the riders in the third and fourth position are open to be replaced by subjective use. Technically, Alison finished fourth, but Chris took that position, and she ended up as the alternate. You do not have the choice to put a person in the alternate position. You can only displace the third or fourth person.

“That would have been more of our desire to do that for Margie, but there was no allowance for that in the criteria as they were written. If that’s an oversight, it’s something to be considered for future selection trials. We were in a very difficult place–she was either on the team or off the team,” Texel explained. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about you, ESG, but to me it sounds like Ray said pretty clearly that he would like the selection criteria reexamined and that, had they had the option, Margie would have gotten the alternate spot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who cares what Ray says?

[satin]

Oh, having seen DMK, I can assure you that she is real and is quite comfortable in her identity.

I cannot say the same for other posters I have met. In fact, I can't even vouch for their sanity.

[Chestnut Manure]

I dont thibnk you've met me!!!

I certainly havent met yoyo! At least I hope not!!!!1 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
Muscle doesn't tear? Or you don't think muscle is soft tissue?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course muscle is soft tissue. The point is, it's a new injury where there was already trauma to begin with. My point is that a 46 year old woman with a severe enough break to warrant screws and plates that re-injures that site and adds (by her comments, anyway) soft tissue injury to that in the space of four months does not equate someone I'd think would be in Olympic riding condition six weeks after the second injury.

Does that clarify?

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
Oh come on now ESG, do you really think the recovery time for an elite athlete isn't different from that of the rest of us? Or that somehow only by reading Margie "sustained torn tissue" that you can adequately diagnose what that injury is, how severe it is, and how long it will take to recover?

Elite athletes compete after injuries all the time. They recover quicker than the rest of us probably because 1) they're in better shape to start with, 2) unlike those of us who have to schedule doctor visits, physical therapy appointments, and exercise around jobs etc., they can devote themselves to recovery, and 3) they have access to some of the best sports medecine professionals out there.

Hey, I don't think Margie should have gotten the bye, but I'm not about to presume to know better than her doctors and say she won't be physically ready come the Olympics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not presuming anything. I'm not claiming expertise in anything. I simply said that I have/had experience with similar injuries and they don't heal quickly. I'm about the same age as Margie and I know for sure I don't heal as quickly as I used to. And maybe it's just me, but when she quit the trials after the first round and the selectors reportedly told her not to continue, that kinda says to me that she isn't fit. And maybe it's just me again, but I just don't think that two weeks more or less will make enough of a difference in her physical condition to allow her to be a reliable addition to the team, especially since we have such a strong one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
No, no, ESG... I conceded if I continued with this argument, you would drag me down to your level and beat me with experience. I understand that now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Besides, I have to clean my keyboard off. It wasn't pretty when I learned that muscle tissue was just recently excluded from the soft tissue category. Alert the AMA! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice try, sweetie. No one said that. I didn't say that. I don't know where you or anyone else read that, but I suspect it came from wherever the rest of your ideas come from, and I so do not want to go there. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palisades:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Texel stated that naming Engle as an alternate wasn’t an option for the committee. “It’s a great idea, and I’m firmly behind that type of idea for sure; however the criteria does not allow for that.

“It clearly states that the riders in the third and fourth position are open to be replaced by subjective use. Technically, Alison finished fourth, but Chris took that position, and she ended up as the alternate. You do not have the choice to put a person in the alternate position. You can only displace the third or fourth person.

“That would have been more of our desire to do that for Margie, but there was no allowance for that in the criteria as they were written. If that’s an oversight, it’s something to be considered for future selection trials. We were in a very difficult place–she was either on the team or off the team,” Texel explained. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about you, ESG, but to me it sounds like Ray said pretty clearly that he would like the selection criteria reexamined and that, had they had the option, Margie would have gotten the alternate spot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we read differently then, because I read that as what it said - that the selection criteria didn't allow for her to be an alternate, and that it would have been nice for Margie (and possibly easier for the selectors?) if the criteria did allow for it, but they didn't. I don't see anything about wanting to change the system here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As always, just my opinion............... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Lord Helpus]

[Forgive me if this has been covered already. I could not wade through the prior 8 pages... It was getting a little deep back there.]

It seems that a review of the selection process is not necessary. A review of reading comprehension of the selection committee might be though.

Ray Texel has been quoted as saying:

“It clearly states that the riders in the third and fourth position are open to be replaced by subjective use. Technically, Alison finished fourth, but Chris took that position, and she ended up as the alternate. You do not have the choice to put a person in the alternate position. You can only displace the third or fourth person."

If this is true, then, by his interpretation, there was never a bye to be given out. How could this be if the people who wrote the rules had intended for the selection committe to have the option for such subjective latitude?

Could it be that the selection committee are the only ones who did not understand how to interpret the rules?

Prior to and during the trials, it was understood that Chris Kappler was the first qualifier. He was the first person who was guaranteed a spot on the team. Everyone who competed in the trials was competing for the other three spots. So, at the end of the trials:

Beezie was the 2nd qualifier
Peter was the 3rd qualifier
McLain was the 4th qualfier
Alison was the 5th qualifier

Molly Sorge, at the end of the trials interviewed the competitors and wrote in her report:

"The possibility that the selection committee, Ray Texel, Lisa Jacquin and Michael Endicott, will choose to replace Ward, as the fourth qualifier, with Engle and Hidden Creek’s Perin still lurks. But Ward has strong feelings about the prospect. “I feel for Margie; we all do. But I don’t think it would be right,” he said"

So, why is Ray Texel now talking about his inability to give Margie a bye because he cannot replace Alison, since Chris Kappler took Alison's place as 4th qualifier and now she is an alternate and he cannot replace an alternate????? It makes no sense and goes against what everyone with an ounce of good old common sense understood right from the start.

IMO, Ray's interpretation of the rules leaves a legal hole big enough to drive a mack truck through if Perrin's connections are litigiously inclined. What he is saying is that there never was a bye available to give Margie. So when the selection committe encouraged her not to continue, they were, in effect, denying her the opportunity to try out for the team.

[SoEasy]

I think what Ray said is
Beezie was first
Then Peter
then McLain
then Alison
then Lauren (I think?)

the committee had 2 byes

the byes could not displace the first two finishers in the Trials

giving a bye before the Trials did not move Chris to the top of the list of Qualifiers

So, Beezie and Peter were on the Team

Chris' bye displaced Alison, the fourth qualifier, to Alternate

Using the second bye would displace the third qualifier, McLain, to Alternate

What they could not do was use the second bye to put Margie in one of the Alternate spots directly

And that seems to me to be a problem - perhaps a tweak to the selection process could allow a bye to put an injured rider/horse into an Alternate slot, instead of on the Team, displacing a pair who finished the Trials near the top and uninjured.

[Duffy]

Ding - Ding - That's my interpretation, SoEasy. (Albeit, it sure doesn't make sense that a "bye" couldn't replace an Alternate position. But, we didn't write the rules.) The only rider/horse that could be replaced was McLain/Sapphire. Obviously, the committee felt that that combination was stronger than the current Margie/Perin combination. End of story.

[SoEasy]

DO NOT start another ADA argument on this thread, which is currently home to more than enough arguments ..........

Thanks so much. SoEasy

[Erin]

CellosPride, what part of SoEasy's post did you NOT understand?

WE ARE NOT HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE ADA.

This is the second time I've had to wrest this thread back from your tangents, and I don't appreciate having to keep doing it. If you want to participate in the discussion at hand -- which, last I checked, was the Olympic selection process -- by all means, do so. Otherwise, STEP AWAY from the keyboard.

I've deleted all the posts on that other tangent from both you AND trailblazer, as they had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Jezebel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
Muscle doesn't tear? Or you don't think muscle is soft tissue?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course muscle is soft tissue. The point is, it's a new injury where there was already trauma to begin with. My point is that a 46 year old woman with a severe enough break to warrant screws and plates that re-injures that site and adds (by her comments, anyway) soft tissue injury to that in the space of four months does not equate someone I'd think would be in Olympic riding condition six weeks after the second injury.

Does that clarify? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well said........ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
A re-injury to an already injured leg? I don't think it would be in the Olympic team's best interest to have a rider that is not physically ready to compete.

[CellosPride]

erin, I have a copy of the posts you deleted. i have turned them over to my lawyer. what part of stopping disability bullying do you and COTH not understand? the part that causes the posters who get away with it to migrate to other boards and post hatred there? i responded to a defamatory post. that is not ADA. it is actionable and i will guarantee within the statute of limitations you are all going to be sued for what you continue to do here to me and those who are allies to my point of view.

[JuniorJumper01]

Are you out of your mind?!

[khobstetter]

CP....the BB is a place for us to offer owr own individual "opinions"....that causes a HUGE amount of disagreements and arguments...

No one discriminated against YOU at all....people just disagreed and finally got tired of the rethoric and inappropriateness.

I myself have found myself in Threads where I felt like the "bullies" showed up..well, I voiced my opinion and we all went to war...and occasionally we still do http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

That is one of the unique parts of the "family" here....we can all fight and fuss and sputter and spout but at the end of the day.....we go on and enjoy this BB...and some of us even end up supporting the opinion of those that we disagreed with and argued with.... .because they have posted a decent opinion (of course in OUR opinion http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif)!!!!

It is not a "right" to post here, it is a priviledge....and one I hold dear!!!

You have not been discriminated against, you have not been singled out and you have not been harrassed......

You, LIKE I SOMETIMES have chosen respond to posts in YOUR manner of opinion....and the rest of us are just a bit tired of it. Erin "warned" you, and at times she has "warned" me and just about everyone who posts regularily here....THAT IS HER JOB!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Just because there is an argument here, or someone sides up with what you consider a bully...doesn't mean we are not still a "family"..

In my early days posting here Coreene bunked up with the "group" and took a run at me for something I said somewhere along the line (don't even remember the issue)...we went tat for tat for along time, then SHE emailed me privately and it has turned out to be great friends and buddies of sorts....I ADORE COREENE!!!!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

But to promise to sue all of us because we don't agree with you, or simply because we are not YOUR "allies"...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> you are all going to be sued for what you continue to do here to me and those who are allies to my point of view <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DON'T LET YOUR MOUTH (or fingers) MAKE A STATEMENT YOU CAN'T BACK UP..........

[ride2hounds]

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:9NKB8t8C1CwJ:www.largo.com/Commission_agendas/commission_packets/2003_dec_16/managers_report.pdf+Day-Petrano&hl=en

Note item A-4.

[fleur]

cellospride, you are completely insane and i don't think it has anything to do with a disability!

[Heidi]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Freedom of speech is a consitutional right. Posting about the ADA, adanauseum, on a horsey BB, is not. Unless I'm mistaken in the assumption that Erin is neither God, a cult leader, or posesses some sort of omnipotent power, do not believe that she bears any right, legal, moral, or otherwise, to control the reactions, opinions and posts of COTH BB members - or, for pete's sake, get a grip already, posts on a separate BB altogether.

I'd like to petition for a bye for Certain Posters from this BB.

[Erin]

Guess what, CellosPride? I have copies of all the posts too. Who cares? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I deleted the posts you considered defamatory, as well as your responses to them, because they had absolutely NOTHING to do with MGE and the selection process. For that reason alone, they did not belong on this thread.

As for what goes on on other forums... how on earth do you think I or the COTH have ANY control over that? We enforce our rules HERE. What people do outside of these forums is beyond our control. If you don't like what's said elsewhere, take it up with someone who can actually do something about it. We can't.

You have been repeatedly told that this forum is not the place to fight your ADA battles. And yet, every single post you make somehow goes back to the ADA. You seem to be incapable of being a constructive member of these forums and using them for the purpose they were intended -- talking about horses.

Therefore, I'm temporarily suspending your posting privileges, and upon discussing the matter with the people at COTH tomorrow, if they approve, that suspension will be permanent and you will no longer be allowed to post here.

With that, I think this thread is done and I'm closing it. If someone really wants to continue to discuss MGE and the selection process, start a new thread.