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View Full Version : Conformation and Other Opinions on this OTTB



Jack16
Nov. 7, 2010, 04:34 PM
http://www.canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3007:barrister-bay&catid=50:delaware-park-trainer-listings&directory=64

So I am trying the best I can to wait until the Spring to buy a new horse but of course I can't help looking. I have a very soft place in my heart for gray TB geldings and saw this boy on CANTER. I am interested in knowing what you conformation experts think. I wish I was better! Given that I will definitely be looking for a young prospect I want to know the most I can about conformation and what to be looking at. He looks pretty well put together I think. On the other side of the coin I think he is a bit expensive. Thoughts?

SnicklefritzG
Nov. 7, 2010, 04:39 PM
I too would be interested to hear what other people have to say about this horse's conformation. I agree that he is overpriced. Most horses listed on the canter website whether trainer listings or farm listings are usually well below that.

CBoylen
Nov. 7, 2010, 06:04 PM
The first question I'd be asking is if he makes a noise.

Bogie
Nov. 7, 2010, 06:14 PM
I believe that trainer listed horses can be priced up to the claiming race price that they are running in.

If the horse is fancy and sound, they may well be able to get 5K because many people like a gray.

I agree that that the first question to ask is about the breathing. First it would be does he make a sound but also, at what point does it occur. A horse with a breathing problem might not make it as an eventer or as a foxhunter because of it.

SnicklefritzG
Nov. 7, 2010, 06:14 PM
^??

Anyplace Farm
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:04 PM
Not a bad looking horse. Worth looking at in person. I find horses can look completely different in person. But yes, you need to know if he makes a noise. You'll want to hear the horse either on the longe or if they can get him working so you can hear it, you need to know. A little 'truffling' isn't a bad thing but you'll know if it is going to be an issue for the hunter ring. Not sure how die-hard you are but these days, they are correcting that via laser. You can look into that first (cost, lay up, etc) and if it is worth it for you to go through that, ask the seller to take $ off the price to accommodate that. A noise won't affect you in the jumper ring but it will in the hunters. Aside from that, it is annoying to you, the rider.

What I look for is my first impression and what I see first on this horse is he is built a little up hill. Which isn't such a bad thing - a lot of good dressage horses are built up hill - supposedly, they are naturally set on their hocks with this build. But, ideally, you'd want to be able to lay a stick on his back and have his whithers and top of his rump to be level. Could be the way they have set him up for the pic though because in the two at the bottom, he is positioned differently and looks fine.

He has a nice forearm yet his gaskin is very weak. So, it makes me wonder, does he pull from up front and the back doesn't work as hard? Again, not a huge detractor because once put into training where he isn't galloping, he will develop different muscles. But for me, with a big horse, I want the right muscles in place to support his big frame.

He has a nice long scapula. You can see this by how low the point of his shoulder is and then drawing a line up to just in front of his whithers. This length of scapula typically means longer movement and his ability to pick his shoulders up well for jumping.

His cannons aren't as short as I'd like to see them. You should be able to set the length of one and a half of his cannons into the same length of his forearm. Not sure if that made sense... But, the closer the cannons are to the ground (and the shorter they are) the less knee action / better movement. His aren't terrible, by any means, but just a hair longer.

Anyway, he's a decent looking guy. Reminds me quite a lot of mine who yes, I paid $5000 for. So far, he's been worth every penny. Like yours, he's big, gray, he only raced twice and was pulled from the track because he just wasn't going to cut it. Mine is ridiculously slow. Mine was also pin-fired, unfortunately, but his attitude, movement and look won me over.

$5K is your seller's asking price. He'll most likely take an offer. No one at the track wants to carry a horse through winter. Go check the horse out. Winter's actually a great time to get these guys so you can let them down - give them time to chill, detox, whatever, then start him up in the spring. You could teach him to longe over the winter and see how things go. But now is better than spring in my opinion.

Good luck. Like George Morris says:

“Thoroughbreds are the best. They’re lighter, quicker and more intelligent. The best of any breed is the Thoroughbred horse, the best of that breed is better than any other breed.”

Beethoven
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:10 PM
Good luck. Like George Morris says:

“Thoroughbreds are the best. They’re lighter, quicker and more intelligent. The best of any breed is the Thoroughbred horse, the best of that breed is better than any other breed.”

Love this! Putting it in my signature...had to cut it down so it could fit.

He is very cute. I would also be concerned about the breathing issue.

SnicklefritzG
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:15 PM
[snip]

Good luck. Like George Morris says:

“Thoroughbreds are the best. They’re lighter, quicker and more intelligent. The best of any breed is the Thoroughbred horse, the best of that breed is better than any other breed.”

I'm glad that GM has great things to say about the thorobred. What then explains their decline in favor of the warmbloods?

Jleegriffith
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:16 PM
If I remember correctly they did do the surgery on him and he does not make a noise. He said he didn't think he would be able to event at the upper levels but should be fine for anything else. The trainer is very knowledgeable and honest so worth a call.

I took the pictures and the horse was even better looking in person but was NOT at all interested in standing still for even one second. He was big boned with nice feet and just had the look of a horse who could jump some big fences. His trainer said he was a very nice mover and I would trust his opinion.

This was the last weekend of racing so I'm not sure if the horse is there or not but may be on the farm if he hadn't sold already.

AnotherRound
Nov. 7, 2010, 10:40 PM
I like him, and more so like your description of seeing him - the impression a horse gives is more than a pic.

The only thing I would ponder would be his gaskin, as mention. I guess I would also look at his back pasterns. They are long and really felxible looking. How far down to they go towards the ground?

Oh- he's only three. Imagine him taken along slowly and built up with good feed, good ground work and strength at ae 7. A tidy horse, if nothing else is going on with him.

I too like that shoulder, and the uphill build.

Anyplace Farm
Nov. 8, 2010, 09:32 AM
I'm glad that GM has great things to say about the thorobred. What then explains their decline in favor of the warmbloods?
That's a whole 'nuther conversation that we've seen countless discussions about on this board. But GM has never lost his love for the TB. He mentions them in every single clinic he does. I have never heard him praise the WB. He'll say, "you have a nice horse" or something like that but as a breed, on the whole, he only sings praises of the TB.

Jack16
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:09 AM
Thanks everyone. I think he is worth calling the trainer it sounds like. I will see if he is still available and go from there. My last boy had tie back surgery at the track and was a roarer. He was a hunter and you really never heard anything except every once in a while and even then it sounded more like a grunt so I never had issues showing him. It sounds like this guy might be destined more for the jumpers but who knows how he will be once he is let down a bit and gets a little older. I am okay with either direction honestly. I will let you know what I find out.

P.S. The whole TB/WB discussion has been done to death but I have to agree with George, there is nothing like the heart of a TB.

Hauwse
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:40 PM
First thing I see is a lack of balance, Horse front-end, pony hind-end.

Could be the picture, but in everyone of them he seems to be, toe-in, left front. It seems to be supported by what appears to be an in-balance in the angle and size of his front feet.

Hard to tell for sure looking at pictures alone, but if I was going to look at him, I would look closely at these area's.

Another thought $5K for an OTTB...gelding??

I think with not much effort at all you could easily find his equivalent, if not his better, for significantly less.

Big_Grey_hunter
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:57 PM
Another thought $5K for an OTTB...gelding??

I think with not much effort at all you could easily find his equivalent, if not his better, for significantly less.

Young, sound, attractive, decently put together, nearly 17 hand, gray horses of ANY breed aren't a dime a dozen. He may have flaws, but I have no doubt many people will happily pay that price.

Andrew
Nov. 8, 2010, 09:23 PM
If I remember correctly they did do the surgery on him and he does not make a noise. He said he didn't think he would be able to event at the upper levels but should be fine for anything else. The trainer is very knowledgeable and honest so worth a call.

I took the pictures and the horse was even better looking in person but was NOT at all interested in standing still for even one second. He was big boned with nice feet and just had the look of a horse who could jump some big fences. His trainer said he was a very nice mover and I would trust his opinion.

This was the last weekend of racing so I'm not sure if the horse is there or not but may be on the farm if he hadn't sold already.

The "older" folks on here will remember Katie Monahan rode Jethro??? HE WAS VERY NOISEY!!!! and VERY SUCCESSFULL in the Grand Prix's!!!

Hauwse
Nov. 9, 2010, 07:18 AM
Young, sound, attractive, decently put together, nearly 17 hand, gray horses of ANY breed aren't a dime a dozen. He may have flaws, but I have no doubt many people will happily pay that price.

Well we disagree on a few points regarding how he is put together, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As one who buys a lot of horses OTT, 12 this year, $5K is a pretty steep price for a unknown quantity, who has failed at his bred for discipline. He has no job on the track, and consequently is a liability to any race owner or trainer day after day, consequently his price should reflect that. While $5K is not significant for a horse that has some proven ability in our disciplines, it is higher than what you would expect to pay for an OTTB, young, sound and attractive to you or not.

Grey, blue, pink or green does not make him a good hunter/jumper. A grey horse standing on one leg is still a grey horse standing on one leg.

Perhaps many will pay that price, but it does not change the risk factor. The fact that you will only have access to a certain amount of information regarding the horse due to his venue, and training, one would be wise to reduce the risk factors, like price, to insulate themselves.

Nothing personal, just thoughts....

Big_Grey_hunter
Nov. 9, 2010, 12:19 PM
Grey, blue, pink or green does not make him a good hunter/jumper. A grey horse standing on one leg is still a grey horse standing on one leg.



Oh, I completely agree! I don't care at all about color. but there are many people who will pay for the color. Its silly, but they are out there

Anyplace Farm
Nov. 9, 2010, 01:13 PM
Oh, I completely agree! I don't care at all about color. but there are many people who will pay for the color. Its silly, but they are out there
And people who will pay for size. I can remember shopping for horses with clients (back when I did that) and all the 17H horses started at $20K, regardless of their experience. I didn't buy mine for size, I bought him for his brain (dead) and looks (purty). His size actually really intimidated me when I was on him. Now, I'm used to it but when he puffs himself up to 18H when he sees deer doing their 'mating ritual', it's very intimidating. Although, it didn't seem to scare the buck that yes, he chased not once but TWICE to get him out of his paddock! Such a goof.

Hauwse
Nov. 10, 2010, 08:54 AM
And people who will pay for size. I can remember shopping for horses with clients (back when I did that) and all the 17H horses started at $20K, regardless of their experience. I didn't buy mine for size, I bought him for his brain (dead) and looks (purty). His size actually really intimidated me when I was on him. Now, I'm used to it but when he puffs himself up to 18H when he sees deer doing their 'mating ritual', it's very intimidating. Although, it didn't seem to scare the buck that yes, he chased not once but TWICE to get him out of his paddock! Such a goof.

Yes there are a lot of people who do look for size, but again it is not really an indicator of anything. Hickstead 15.3HH's, Gem Twist 15.3HH, Hillary Dobbs gelding 15.2HH, I don't think anything BZ had at the National was over 16HH, I might be wrong but at 6'3" they looked tiny to me.

Bogie
Nov. 10, 2010, 09:48 AM
Yes there are a lot of people who do look for size, but again it is not really an indicator of anything. Hickstead 15.3HH's, Gem Twist 15.3HH, Hillary Dobbs gelding 15.2HH, I don't think anything BZ had at the National was over 16HH, I might be wrong but at 6'3" they looked tiny to me.

I look for size because I'm 6' tall with very long legs. It's always bugged the heck out of me to see tiny people riding big horses that they don't need :D.

I don't want a huge horse. I just one want that's "big enough." I hate the fact that I am often looking at a premium just because the horse is 16.2 plus.

mvp
Nov. 10, 2010, 11:31 AM
Besides his Peterbuilt structure, I don't see what else you guys like about him.

I think he looks like a horse with a mind and body dedicated to pulling himself around rather than pushing. That's just my impression based on neck, big front end and weaker hind end.

He also doesn't have much of a wither. That will change some as he matures, but it may be hard to keep a saddle glued to his back the way you want it.

If the trainer says he's a good mover, however, I'd go look and be prepared to be wrong about my opinion based on pictures.

Equine Adhesive
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:49 AM
He doesn't do much for me, personally. He probably looks better in person, but if I was looking, and ended up liking him enough, I would expect to pay $1000-$1500, right around where most of them are right now.

$5k might not be a lot to some people, but think of it this way: his price is DOUBLE what the higher-end Canter horses go for! I just don't see it. He's not hunter type; eventers don't pay $5k usually, so you're left with Eq or jumpers. And it's still a huge crap-shoot, so why start out with so much into him? Someone here said it earlier when they brought up he is already a failure in his first job, is already not blemish/issue-free BEFORE a PPE, and is worth nothing as a racehorse. Hence the $1000-$1500 I would pay, if I even liked him. He's not half as nice-looking as a lot of track horses I see. If you are looking for a TB, just wait until one comes along you can't live without-- it will happen. ;)

ohrebecca
Nov. 12, 2010, 02:58 PM
I'm not feeling him, but I can't put my finger on it. Add to that his unnecessarily high price, and the fact that you could get something a bit more "proven" for the same price, or equally green for a fraction of it, then he gets a pass from me.