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twosixorbust
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:31 AM
I'm an adult with a demanding full time job and a green but nice horse who puts up with me. I ride 6 days a week, take lessons every week, and get home from the barn well after dark where I plunge right into bed to do it again the next day. I found riding as an adult, made some mistakes with some bad trainers and bad horses, and turn into a paralyzed monkey on my horse over fences.

I jump 2' 6", I show 2' 6" I have the time of my life and there is so much more for me to work on. I have no earthly desire to ever jump above 2' 6"

What really hurts is all the heifers out there who have nothing better to do then complain about my division being the downfall of society as we know it. I'm really sorry my division makes you cry. I'm really sorry you vomit a little in your mouth when I do my opening circle. I'm terribly sad that my riding doesn't resemble a black and white photo of your grandma jumping in a velvet hunt cap and a tweed jacket. I'm really sorry that your division doesn't fill or that you have to wait all day to go jump your horse over your real people sized fences.

My division fills the shows and without it you probably wouldn't show. Recognize that what people want and need has changed and stop being such a Bitter Betty about it.

I'll never understand why it bothers you so much what height of a fence I decide is appropriate for me and my horse. Railbird.

Maybe if your trainer would get people in the ring on time you wouldn't have to wait so long. Gasp.


Oh, and I use a standing martingale JUST for looks and I grab mane over the fences because despite my trainer's best intentions the auto release will never ever be part of my bag of tricks.

Quinn
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:38 AM
Highly respect your post. :)

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

chunky munky
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:50 AM
Good work, twosixer! Luvin' it.

Equine Studies
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:03 AM
Well said.

ToTheNines
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:07 AM
I hear you! I am 58, my horse is coming 11, and if we bop around at 2'6", things can stay the same for as long as I am happy riding.

flogarty
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:09 AM
I think this may be the best first post in the history of COTH online BB. Way to throw down the gauntlet.

Twosixer- can we be friends?

skyy
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:16 AM
Whoo hoo! Members of the 2'6" club unite! Last time I checked, riding was still about having fun!

Hunter_Newbie
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:25 AM
*bows down in respect*

And may we add that if I want to spend my show career doing nothing more than three or four local on the farm shows a year and Im happy with that, people can stop trying to convince me to "just try" a bigger show and that "someday you will love A shows" :mad:

Me and the school ponies have a grand time bopping around the home arena and goofing around with my barn friends, thank you very much :yes:

twotrudoc
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:35 AM
I haven't even ridden in a while (and used to jump higher) but I would be proud to cheer you on over a 2'6" course any day!!

Woohoooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, I love tweed jackets *swoon*

Heineken
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:36 AM
Amen.

batman the horse
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:38 AM
Where is the "like" button when you need it?

Sing Mia Song
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:41 AM
Right. On.

I'm an ex-Big Eq rider. I also have a demanding job and a long commute, and, frankly, I have interests outside of riding. I have a green horse who, despite my best efforts to ride him consistently, will probably remain a green bean for quite a while. I spent the last year showing more than I have in the last ten years--a whopping four schooling shows where I trotted around the crossrail divisions with the little kids and got a lot of green ribbons. And I'm thrilled with that.

Sure, I'd like to have the time, energy and money to have an A/O horse. But I don't, so I'm perfectly happy with what I've got.

eclipse
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:44 AM
Good for you, I really don't care what height people jump either! They just need to understand that not everyone has the time, money, horse, desire, etc to jump the " big stuff" and yeah, without "us small undesirables" those bigger payout classes probably wouln't exist (except at the int level which are actually hugely sposored)

I too have every right to enjoy this wonerful sport, and you've just put into words what many of us feel! You go girl!!

Roxx
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:47 AM
My one big wish for my show season next year is to re-join the 2'6 club! Can't wait and well said twosix :D

BLBGP
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:07 AM
Curious - are you saying people do this to you in real life at shows or are you responding to the complaints on here?

I'm another former jr/ao hunter, jumper, and eq rider who took a break, got back into it, and now just have fun playing with the little stuff.

Somermist
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:15 AM
I think this may be the best first post in the history of COTH online BB. Way to throw down the gauntlet.

Twosixer- can we be friends?

Perfect!:D

CatOnLap
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:20 AM
LOL.

my division being the downfall of society as we know it

it didn't have far to fall at 2'6" now, did it, dear?

Let's_Motor
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:36 AM
Best.first.post.ever.

Good for you for your dedication, and for being one of those (seemingly) rare few who enjoying riding and showing for what it is, and want to work hard to be their best, even if the end game isn't the Grand Prix ring.

Big_Grey_hunter
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:42 AM
Great post! I moved up to 3', butI was a 2'-2'6er for quite a while. Plus, my horse was 17h, so people all assumed we should be jumping bigger (although he couldn't jump 3') It annoys me no end when people talk about 'real' classes starting at 3'6" and "back in the good old days" everybody started over 4' natural jumps and riders could all ride like GM.

Flash44
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:42 AM
I'm getting to the point where I don't want to jump anything on horseback that I can't jump on foot. And since I'm now relegated to Flash Jr's green naughty pony, I may be doing crossrails for a long time. I have no interest in getting it to jump real jumps!

MHM
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:58 AM
I'm glad you're enjoying your riding and your horse.

I have to tell you, though, even if you were showing in the Regular Working Hunters at 4' or the Grand Prix classes, there would still be people sitting on the sidelines (or on their computers!) carping and criticizing your choices for something or other. Some people just get a kick out of it. Ignore them.

As long as you have a happy, healthy horse and you're having fun with him, who cares what anybody else thinks? :)

allpurpose
Nov. 6, 2010, 12:03 PM
AAA-men sistah! :)

dogbluehorse
Nov. 6, 2010, 12:44 PM
Twosix I agree with your post, even though I was and hope to be again someone who wants the higher classes as well. It is amazing how a 4'3" jump can feel like nothing on my best horse who is now retired, and 2'6" can reduce me to jelly on my young hot TB mare. The size of the jump has everything do with how you feel about your partnership with your horse and your level of training, and what is scary for you might not be for someone else (or even you on a different horse), and you can get an amazing adrenaline rush over any size jump in the right circumstances.
So even if you see me eventually jumping higher jumps again with my new horse in a year or two, I am all for having lots of lower level classes so when everyone starts over (or is happy where they are) there is something to do that isn't totally petrifying!

SmplySweet1021
Nov. 6, 2010, 12:47 PM
Amazing Post!!!!!!

I never had my own horse to show, I always rode the schoolies and felt most comfortable at 2'6". Maybe it was because I was a nervous wreck at shows or what but I...gasp...LIKE 2'6".

Now that I physically can't ride anymore I want to kick myself for not pushing myself to do the 3' -3'6" but that's a whole other story :lol:

AndNirina
Nov. 6, 2010, 02:15 PM
My love to you! I'm a 2'6"er, too. Or at least I was until Jan. until maresy went dead lame, now I may as well show lead line (also known as handwalking). Great post... Be proud!

Event4Life
Nov. 6, 2010, 02:40 PM
Hey, I'm probably younger than you are and at the moment don't have the guts to do a course of cross rails, and little desire to jump ever again (my coth sn is misleading, it was made 5 years ago!!). So more power to you, 2'6 would look like a mountain to me!! Continue riding and enjoying your horse - doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

headsupheelsdown
Nov. 6, 2010, 03:23 PM
Very well said!!

Foxtrot's
Nov. 6, 2010, 03:49 PM
Just press your 'ignore' button. Those heifers are not very happy people.
Enjoy your horse and what you do with him/her. You are in good company judging by the size of your classes, and the show committee loves you.

ifiwereyou
Nov. 6, 2010, 05:03 PM
I'm an adult with a demanding full time job and a green but nice horse who puts up with me. I ride 6 days a week, take lessons every week, and get home from the barn well after dark where I plunge right into bed to do it again the next day. I found riding as an adult, made some mistakes with some bad trainers and bad horses, and turn into a paralyzed monkey on my horse over fences.

I jump 2' 6", I show 2' 6" I have the time of my life and there is so much more for me to work on. I have no earthly desire to ever jump above 2' 6"

What really hurts is all the heifers out there who have nothing better to do then complain about my division being the downfall of society as we know it. I'm really sorry my division makes you cry. I'm really sorry you vomit a little in your mouth when I do my opening circle. I'm terribly sad that my riding doesn't resemble a black and white photo of your grandma jumping in a velvet hunt cap and a tweed jacket. I'm really sorry that your division doesn't fill or that you have to wait all day to go jump your horse over your real people sized fences.

My division fills the shows and without it you probably wouldn't show. Recognize that what people want and need has changed and stop being such a Bitter Betty about it.

I'll never understand why it bothers you so much what height of a fence I decide is appropriate for me and my horse. Railbird.

Maybe if your trainer would get people in the ring on time you wouldn't have to wait so long. Gasp.


Oh, and I use a standing martingale JUST for looks and I grab mane over the fences because despite my trainer's best intentions the auto release will never ever be part of my bag of tricks.

Thank you! :)

I am a fellow two-sixer who has never gotten to show anything more because of untimely lameness and university... Last summer I got to show for fun and I enjoyed it more than I ever did before... I had been off for the entire school year, so I did some 2'6 divisions. I had the most fun showing in my life because I was really grateful to be showing, and I could care less about the height.

I would much rather be okay with showing 2'6" and loving it than showing 3'6" and be wishing I was jumping higher.

ET's Home
Nov. 6, 2010, 05:15 PM
Thank you!

Your right, without us showing in the 'minor league' divisions, wanna bet what the fees would be for the 3'6"+ divisions??? Not only are all these 2'6" divisions helping to keep the shows afloat, we also are supporting the trainers, BO's and other staff (the grooms! :D) who might not have a whole stable of owners capable of the bigger divisions.

katie+tru
Nov. 6, 2010, 05:29 PM
I have to agree here. Sort of ironic, because I have a trainer who has had her fair share of rants about hunters "back in the day". She was part of the generation that had shows that started at 3'-something. I have to admit, I do understand her slight bitterness. I'm sure things felt much more exlusive and special when you had to be riding well enough to do 3' to even start showing. She certainly wasn't sharing the ring with 10 year olds or people that just started. It was probably mostly teens and adults who had ridden for some time. However, presently, someone who's been riding for all of 6 months can do a crossrail class and actually stand a chance at winning. I can see how older folks might find this annoying. They have the thought "We didn't have that option as kids. We just had to learn to ride well enough to meet the requirements to show. The classes didn't come down to meet us."

But as I said, I understand your point of view completely. Not everyone is out to be George. Not every kid is drooling for a Maclay trophy. Horse shows are getting more and more costly to run as less and less people ride horses, so you have to find ways to draw in more people to pay for it all. And most people these days aren't jumping 3'+, so we have to find a way to get them to come and (not to be too frank) give them money. That means lower fences. And that's totally fine. I realize that one day I could very well reach that point in life where I no longer can/want to be seriously competitive and just want to bounce around at the lower levels.

Hunter Mom
Nov. 6, 2010, 05:35 PM
That means lower fences. And that's totally fine. I realize that one day I could very well reach that point in life where I no longer can/want to be seriously competitive and just want to bounce around at the lower levels.

Give me a break & get over yourself. Some of us actually enjoy the level we're at - and are competitive at it! Competitive is a state of mind, not a fence height.

vacation1
Nov. 6, 2010, 06:23 PM
Oh, thank god. I was afraid this was going to be ALL positive comments and then I'd have to wake up. COTH forums now returning to their usual state of testiness.:)

OP, I do love your crack about not looking like their grandmother in her velvet hunt cap, etc.

Jsalem
Nov. 6, 2010, 07:11 PM
You go girl! I bet your trainer loves you. It would be an honor to work for someone like you!

ohrebecca
Nov. 6, 2010, 07:29 PM
Love this post. I'm a 2'3-er, max, right now, and not showing right now, to boot, but I've definitely felt the "why aren't you shooting for the 3' & up" divisions (though my equitation would show you EXACTLY why, ha!)

luckeys71
Nov. 6, 2010, 07:31 PM
The trainer I used to ride with, a pretty well known, respected, and successful hunter rider, always said her favorite height was 2'6". She said she didn't really like jumping bigger, even though she has shown many successful Green and Regulars. I personally, don't care if I ever jump bigger than 3'. I feel that is a safe height for any averagely talented horse to get me safely to the other side, no matter what horrible mistake I make. A big mistake at 3'6" can get you and your horse in trouble and I am SO capable of THAT ride. I'm just not that talented and at this point don't see that changing. My horse is quite talented, but good for her. She is, also, pretty lazy and I don't think she stands in the pasture dreaming of showing at Indoors. I haven't heard a complaint from her about the small jumps!

jaslyn1701
Nov. 6, 2010, 07:32 PM
At the local shows I go to the two biggest classes are the 2'6" Hunters and, wait for it - w/t or w/t/c x rails. Having bought my first horse last April (I am 55) - and he is a somewhat green tb and I am a somewhat timid (ok, just call me timid - it sounds nicer than chicken) - I aim to get to x rails and if I get to 2'6" hunters I will be euphoric.

juststartingout
Nov. 6, 2010, 07:54 PM
Well said!

As an adult who started at 48, now 54, and did a first show at crossrails when I was 50 on my DD's first horse - a sainted, now happily retired OTTB - who took care of me like i was fragile china but no longer had the scope for 2'6" with a lousy amateur.... I dream - no maybe fantasize about 2'6".

I'll probably never get there ...

Congrats to yu enjoy - I'll be cheering you on

ChafedToBits
Nov. 6, 2010, 08:48 PM
Thank you very much for your post! I too kept looking for the "like" button after reading it. :)

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Nov. 6, 2010, 08:53 PM
I don't have any problem with lovely people like the OP here, and any other legit English riders who want to jump smaller fences. Nerves are a big thing, young horses need time to grow up, and adding being over-faced by fence height can lead to dangerous situations.

It's the backyard yahoos who come out of the woodwork to ride in the crossrails, 18", 2', 2'3 divisions on their painted palomino arab walking mountain 14.3 horse.

They don't respect rules in warm up rings, hold up rings by being late and having ongoing troubles (multiple refusals/runouts, pull lots of rails, etc., not leaving the ring after being excused) and generally treat (A and even occasionally AA rated) shows as their personal arenas for schooling and teaching. The so-called "trainers" for these people are giving full lessons for 2-4 riders in the small jumper schooling rings, using a jump for over an hour at a time when there's only 3 jumps for people trying to get to the arena to show. They're the ones schooling the six year old kid in a plastic helmet, jeans and cowboy boots on a pony in a western bridle with a kimberwicke in its mouth... and schooling the kid not in some empty back ring, but in the main hunter or jumper schooling ring when rated divisions are going on.

Riders that are competently in control of their horses, who respect ring rules, and aren't disrespectful of other exhibitors and show management are wonderful NO MATTER the level they show at. Those who do the kind of thing I specify above I seem to see more and more of when there are multiple poles-on-the-ground, crossrails, 18", 2' etc. little divisions.

SEP
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:06 PM
Great Post.

I am of the age when you had the jr hunters at 3'6", and there might have been a Limit Eq at 3'. There were no childrens hunters and the pre-greens were just starting. Were shows better then ? I really dont know, did I have fun yes. Would I be showing now if that is all that is offered, probably not.

Due to age and injuries I can only get over one or two 4' and four or five 3'6" fences in the time that it takes to do a course.
But the body holds up at the 3' and lower heights for four or five classes a day. So that is what I do and I have fun at it. Does this make me a less of a rider I don't think so. Just with age I have learned my limitations.

As a former horse show manager of schooling shows I had a few mainly teenagers complaining that I shouldnt have the beginner and cross rail divisions because it made the show take so long. I had to remind them that it was these divisions that allowed meto run their 2'9" division with only three horses in it, and still award the series champion.

So thank you to all of the lower division riders who keep the horse shows in the black,.

RAyers
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:11 PM
...painted palomino arab walking mountain 14.3 horse....

What the hell does the type of horse have to do with it? I agree that there are those out there who choose not to learn rules and etiquette and can be very unsafe. But I have seen them on warmbloods as well as non-typical breeds.

I only point this out because I have seen some top, top horses that were not "typical" hunter breeds (WB that look like arabs and arabs that look like WB/TBs) but excelled in disciplines such as the jumpers, dressage and eventing. One can not judge the rider by the horse they sit upon. You can only judge the rider.

Why does the tack have anything todo with it either? A good friend of mine would warm her GP jumper up in a western tom-thumb? Did it mean she sucks or is ignorant?

Again, perhaps the unfamiliar trainers/riders should not be where they are but that becomes the prerogative of the paddock people to ask them to move.

I think little snarky comments such as that exemplifies the perception and attitudes she dislikes.

Reed

Haven's Edge
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:34 PM
I agree with Reed
and.... there are plenty of riders/trainers with fancy horses etc.. that do all that stuff in the warm up ring AND even do it in the pee wee warm up ring when they should be over in the w u ring for jumpers.. the breed of the horse certainly has nothing to do with the behavior of the people around it..


as for fence height divisions at shows.. offer what fills or atleast pays for the awards and judge expenses.. let people compete or school at the level they are safest and let them enjoy their time. It can be just as stressful for a rider to jump around at 2' and it is to a different rider to jump around at 4'.

Some people will never go to Indoors.. even just to watch.. that doesn't make them less of a horse lover or whatever..people have the right to their own interests,jmo

Proud owner of multiple velvet helmets in various colors, tweed jackets,scarlet jackets, who remembers the Garden,Forum,Cow Palace and other long gone venues who is perfectly happy to let clients/horse be the best they can be at any height.

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:39 PM
What the hell does the type of horse have to do with it? I agree that there are those out there who choose not to learn rules and etiquette and can be very unsafe. But I have seen them on warmbloods as well as non-typical breeds.

I only point this out because I have seen some top, top horses that were not "typical" hunter breeds (WB that look like arabs and arabs that look like WB/TBs) but excelled in disciplines such as the jumpers, dressage and eventing. One can not judge the rider by the horse they sit upon. You can only judge the rider.

Why does the tack have anything todo with it either? A good friend of mine would warm her GP jumper up in a western tom-thumb? Did it mean she sucks or is ignorant?

Again, perhaps they should not be where they are but that becomes the prerogative of the paddock people to ask them to move.

I think little snarky comments such as that exemplifies the perception and attitudes she dislikes.

Reed

It's not about being Arab, TB or WB. It's about a horse and rider team that are capable and competent. What I described is what one of these yahoos told me their pony/horse was, but supposedly it purebred as well. :confused:

My point is that offering a poles-on-the-ground, 6" cross rails classes, 18", multiple 2', 2'3 etc. does seem to bring in a good deal of these yahoos. At shows that don't offer these things we don't seem to get the same crowd.

If we could have horse shows with paddock masters who didn't fall asleep or wander off, and we didn't have to deal with people who don't understand or don't care what the system is, then sure, offer whatever. If the same trainers that were riding in the big open jumpers, the reg working hunters, had clients in Juniors, AO's, Children's, AA's and poles on the ground classes, these classes would run fine (other than arena conflicts). But the "trainers" who come to show their horses in training in the 2' while their clients need coaching in the poles-on-the-ground and no one from that establishment shows over 2' at the show... I say GO TO A SCHOOLING SHOW and leave those of us who have the system down and are riding on a different level to do what we do in peace.

PoochPaddock
Nov. 6, 2010, 09:48 PM
I think this may be the best first post in the history of COTH online BB. Way to throw down the gauntlet.

Twosixer- can we be friends?

I second this!!!

Fun Size
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:01 PM
I'm a proud member of the 2'6" club as well! Love it. Horse and I are totally happy at that level.

I would love to move up someday...but only when my equitation rates that. In the meantime, I like that I can show.

I didn't start riding until I was an adult, so I like to say that I'll get "there" someday...wherever "there" is :D

Big_Grey_hunter
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:04 PM
I didn't start riding until I was an adult, so I like to say that I'll get "there" someday...wherever "there" is :D

That would be the exact reason my dad's new FANCY 3'/3'6" horse is named "Someday" He always said he'd do this or that 'someday' Now that day is here:D

hntrjmprpro45
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:42 PM
I have quite a few riders who are 2'6"ers. For some, 2'6" is the biggest they care to jump (usually adult riders) but for others, 2'6" is just a stepping stone. The only thing I dislike about that height (or any height that a rider gets really comfortable at) is that it becomes easy to get sloppy and not try as hard. Naturally if you have a really competitive circuit at 2'6" you will push yourself to stay "sharp" but for many this isn't the case. I think in general adults do a better job at this since they tend to be harder on themselves than kids. IMO, so long as you do a nice job (and continue to do a nice job even after you get into that comfort zone) then it doesn't matter what height you jump at.

.

S1969
Nov. 6, 2010, 10:43 PM
If we could have horse shows with paddock masters who didn't fall asleep or wander off, and we didn't have to deal with people who don't understand or don't care what the system is, then sure, offer whatever. If the same trainers that were riding in the big open jumpers, the reg working hunters, had clients in Juniors, AO's, Children's, AA's and poles on the ground classes, these classes would run fine (other than arena conflicts). But the "trainers" who come to show their horses in training in the 2' while their clients need coaching in the poles-on-the-ground and no one from that establishment shows over 2' at the show... I say GO TO A SCHOOLING SHOW and leave those of us who have the system down and are riding on a different level to do what we do in peace.

Well, bless your heart.



I say GO TO A SCHOOLING SHOW and leave those of us who have the system down and are riding on a different level to do what we do in peace.

That quote was so awesome I think we needed to read it twice. :D

Believe me, most local riders don't go to the A/AA shows. If that's where you are competitive, you won't see us there, so we'll be no distraction to you.

danceronice
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:05 PM
I personally would be good with jumping 3' or 3'6". (I would have died of a heart attack thinking of it as a teen, but I've gotten over that whole abject terror thing as an adult.) My HORSE would look at it like "What? That's the kind of fence that keeps me in the pasture, not something I'm supposed to jump!" I'd be happy to get him over a 2'6" course. Heck, I'd be happy to get him over a 2'6" oxer on a consistent basis (he jumps it once, then realizes it's less work to jump it if he knocks it down first. I think I just need to accept jumping is really not his forte.)

SmileItLooksGood--hey, at least if they're slowing up the class by having refusals they're doing it while they're actually IN the ring, not waiting by the gate crying they can't jump, their trainer isn't here to watch.

jenarby
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:14 PM
I showed all summer in the two foot division (unrated events though not hunters) and had a total blast. It has been years since I competed and I had a new horse. I placed really well and everyone always wanted to know when I'd move up. I'm a chicken....plain and simple. I enjoyed showing this year for the first time in forever. I gained confidence and had a ball. I wanted to at least give beginner novice a shot next year even if looking at those solid fences this year made me sick to my stomach. I unexpectedly lost my horse a week ago and am left with a less than bold greenie. So will not likely be moving up next year, might even be taking a step down. I felt a lot of pressure this past summer by other people showing against me to go higher. I used to worry about what other people thought and ended up with some serious anxiety over it. After having as much fun as I did this year....I really don't care what they think anymore!

Calvincrowe
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:26 PM
Probably the most rational, well-thought out and written post I've read on COTH. I agree with every single word. Bless you, and may you enjoy every single ride and fence and show free from those you skewered in that post. I've read them on here for years, and listened to them ring side at shows.

Master the eye roll and the ignore button and go about your business!

HobbyHorse101
Nov. 7, 2010, 12:51 AM
I love this.
It's not the jump that makes up the big part it's getting there finding every distance and doing it right. If one can jump in perfect form over a cross rail on can go over 3' + just fine.

I'm jealous of all the 2'6ers right now since wild jumper boy and I can barely hold it together on the flat at the moment!

HuntJumpSC
Nov. 7, 2010, 01:12 AM
SmileItLooksGood~ Do you live in my neck of the woods? ;)

I so totally agree with the OP! I'm happiest at 2'6" & under, though I've jumped and shown higher in the past. Why? I'm pushing 40 in a couple of years (gasp! when did THAT happen?) and I don't bounce anymore when I hit the dirt, it's more of a thud. :lol:

Of course, I'm not doing any jumping at the moment. My girl is only 3 1/2, and we've been taking things slowly from the start. I work full time, have a husband and little boy who will be 2 years this month. I got this filly right after she turned 2 as a project~ having been horseless for close to three years (for the first time in my life) I will be perfectly happy if we never jump higher than 2'6". If we can clock around some day, and get 8 perfect jumps, and good ribbons (in good company!) then we have achieved success. Besides, getting to that point right now for me is half the fun! :)

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Nov. 7, 2010, 01:41 AM
Well, bless your heart.



That quote was so awesome I think we needed to read it twice. :D

Believe me, most local riders don't go to the A/AA shows. If that's where you are competitive, you won't see us there, so we'll be no distraction to you.

No need to be condescending.

It's both distracting and dangerous for a couple little ones getting their weekend up-down lesson to be plunking around the jumper warm up while rated classes are running.

I attended a rated show a little while back when poles-on-the-ground was offered as a division.

I pulled my horse out of a fence to avoid jumping and landing on a pony with a child on it. Twice. I witnessed another pony in the lesson kick a horse warming up for the same class I was in. The "trainer" stood by idly while this happened. When the first child on a pony wandered in front of my jump as we were leaving the ground I made a hard turn and wiped out the standard with my knee to avoid them. I ended up having to scratch my class.

These kids and their "trainer" were hours wrong for their poles on the ground or crossrail division.

Therefore, I don't believe that the A show is something that should be designed as open to all with a horse. The idea of a section for everyone serves no one well, or even safely sometimes.

Event4Life
Nov. 7, 2010, 04:53 AM
At Hickstead there is a crossrail class. The same day they have the Grand Prix. Just Sayin'.

sonomacounty
Nov. 7, 2010, 05:58 AM
Yay, 2-6 !

Older rider here. I used to go big but I just don't want to anymore.

You got it !

MoonWitch
Nov. 7, 2010, 08:38 AM
Not only was I trilled to see this post, but also by the comments supporting the 2'6" club. I started out as a youngin' foxhunting and guess what? The field jumps were 2'6" or lower!!

When I teach, I have many parents asking when Suzie will jump higher than a crossrail. I reply that I would rather see her jump a X perfectly than holding on for dear life over a jump that she has no business jumping.

Far too often I have been at show watching riders in the 3' hunters go around with feet jammed through the stirrups, hanging on their horse's mouth with everyone watching and holding their breath. Why? Because some "trainer" doesn't feel like a trainer unless her kids are jumping in the "big" classes. Give me a break...

RAyers
Nov. 7, 2010, 08:48 AM
No need to be condescending...

And you weren't? Remember the adage about for every finger pointed away from you, there are three pointed back at you.

chunky munky
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:32 AM
As a horse show manager I would like to remind Smiley that the prize money paid out to the big classes is coming from the lower level riders. If those cross rail and rusty stirrup riders stay away, you won't have a horse show to go to. Don't think that sponsors are coughing up huge sums to allow you to jump on Sunday. The gravy train is over. I suggest that you welcome those novice riders with open arms sister.

findeight
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:54 AM
Interesting...

With a few exceptions, the people who tend to snark the most on here fall into 2 camps.

Some who cite other peoples lack of ability, low fences, the crest release and various other issues and then fume "that is why I don't show anymore, everybody else sucks"-never mind the no horse/no money situation.

Then you have those who read what camp #1 says and parrot it as their own opinion and therefore gospel truth.

So, OP take it with a grain of salt if you read it on here. Some people are able to form their own opinions based on their experience and communicate it well. Don't take the rest of them personally.

Jumphigh83
Nov. 7, 2010, 10:35 AM
You had my sympathies until you wrote about the "heifers" on this board. So if you don't want to be disrespected, why disrespect? Too bad, I stopped reading there.

Midge
Nov. 7, 2010, 10:42 AM
Some who cite other peoples lack of ability, low fences, the crest release and various other issues and then fume "that is why I don't show anymore, everybody else sucks"-never mind the no horse/no money situation.

I swear if I thought all my competition sucked, It would make me want to show more!!

Langfuhr
Nov. 7, 2010, 11:11 AM
you go girl!

magnolia73
Nov. 7, 2010, 12:37 PM
Dear twosixer-
I am the gal on the perpetually greenie who is a saint. We are learning over crossrails. I am the person watching you in the 2'6 hoping to get there before I can get an AARP card. :) You always look like you are having fun and so am I. I did buy a dead quiet horse and have now been told by multiple people with harder/spookier/hotter horses that "my horse looks like fun".

She is fun. Really fun. Riding should be first and foremost about good care for the horses (and I am betting your horse gets the best of care) and then it should be about the rider enjoying their time in the saddle.

The people who need to rip on us jumping crossrails, showing over 2'6 or toodling around at a western pleasure need to get over themselves. They are MORE THAN WELCOME to take Satan's Spawn in the grand prix..... and I will even stay out of their way in the warm up ring while their horse pitches a fit.

supershorty628
Nov. 7, 2010, 12:59 PM
Dear twosixer,

I show over the "big jumps". I have more respect and admiration for the people like you who get out there and do it because they love it than for the people who are paying big bucks to do higher and to feel like they have the right to be snarky.

Just to chip in and say that not everyone who is showing over bigger stuff looks down on people who don't. I think it's great that you do what is fun for you and for your horse! My hat is off to you! :)

luckyduck
Nov. 7, 2010, 01:30 PM
Two Sixer- kudos to you for your post.

Its not about the height of the jump....it's about the love of the sport!

blackcat95
Nov. 7, 2010, 02:04 PM
Two Sixer- kudos to you for your post.

Its not about the height of the jump....it's about the love of the sport!

Hear hear! I'm a teenager and I've been a 2'6er for... 3 years? 4? And I love it! I've seen most of my friends move up to the 3' and I'm fine with it. Only now, after becoming really confidant with the horse I'm on and really being able to say "I have no problem with 2'6. What's next?" am I beginning to consider moving up. But that's on my terms. :) I could have moved up a couple of years ago... but I would have been a bag of nerves. More fun to have fun doing the lower fences than the higher ones and be freaking out! :yes:

Roisin
Nov. 7, 2010, 04:13 PM
You are my hero! Hear, hear! I hope I might get my 3' on next year...but if I don't, so what. My entry fees are just as welcome, I'm sure!

Fun Size
Nov. 7, 2010, 05:34 PM
Dear twosixer,

I show over the "big jumps". I have more respect and admiration for the people like you who get out there and do it because they love it than for the people who are paying big bucks to do higher and to feel like they have the right to be snarky.

Just to chip in and say that not everyone who is showing over bigger stuff looks down on people who don't. I think it's great that you do what is fun for you and for your horse! My hat is off to you! :)

Totally true! I get nothing but support from my barn mates, and they ALL jump WAY bigger than me...except the medium ponies! They've watched me go from the "wow, that needs some work" rider not even trotting over poles to doing well in a 2'6" medal over a period of about 2 years, and they are super awesome and supportive.

Just have to stick with the ones like that :D

Beam Me Up
Nov. 7, 2010, 06:01 PM
I'm terribly sad that my riding doesn't resemble a black and white photo of your grandma jumping in a velvet hunt cap and a tweed jacket.

I love this line!
This is at times a very nostalgic bb.

3Dogs
Nov. 7, 2010, 06:17 PM
not to stir up a popcorn pot, which of course I have just put on the burner to start popping....:)

but, I don't think it is a question of not supporting everything you are doing and hopefully enjoying! Not at all. So moi, I am with the George comments in COTH about what is happening in the US jumper world. If every show AA - C thinks that it is the lower levels that should be accomodated and encouraged - then we (may) end up with "watered down" (his words not mine) expectations -
He was talking about GP jumpers, but I am as passionate about top level hunters - can't help it - just am. Again, to quote GM - forgive me, I am old - "Instead of rising to the standards, everyone - show management, professional trainers, amateurs and jumiors, course builders - at any excuse will water it down to placate people, which enables them to better pay the bills" .

It is more about shows and management - we should have dedicated shows as in my region, that are full of great classes for the starting out, the never goin to, the greenies - wonderful shows - and then we should have shows that are not about accomodating all the above, but about a different group. And support both aims! It is trying to be all things to all people at ONE horse show that ends up frustrating -

I for one don't have ANY anger at anyone enjoying their horse at any level!!
Good luck to you - I envy that you can ride so often - my full time job and location of my horses not nearly as accomodating!

Fun Size
Nov. 7, 2010, 06:27 PM
"Instead of rising to the standards, everyone - show management, professional trainers, amateurs and jumiors, course builders - at any excuse will water it down to placate people, which enables them to better pay the bills" .

It is more about shows and management - we should have dedicated shows as in my region, that are full of great classes for the starting out, the never goin to, the greenies - wonderful shows - and then we should have shows that are not about accomodating all the above, but about a different group. And support both aims! It is trying to be all things to all people at ONE horse show that ends up frustrating -

I for one don't have ANY anger at anyone enjoying their horse at any level!!
Good luck to you - I envy that you can ride so often - my full time job and location of my horses not nearly as accomodating!

I think it can be done all at one horse show, BUT they have to be careful. The bigger shows here in the Los Angeles area (I think) usually just have one or two 2'3" divisions, and one or two 2'6" divisions, and they run them in the pony ring so they aren't having to move jumps much. So it works. I don't think I've seen those shows go much past 5pm. So not too bad.

Then I went to a show that, and I am not exaggerating AT ALL, had a w/t over poles division, and then an x-rail division. The x-rail division was split into THREE count 'em THREE age groups!!! It took hours. Hey, if that Futures medal is basically 13+ and my old self has to ride against the cute little ponies, they should do the same for x-rails. :D So it can be done, just carefully!

RugBug
Nov. 7, 2010, 06:32 PM
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP (show where/what you want to), I've got to say the tone was off-putting. To me, the Op comes off as the Bitter Betty. :Shrug:

Truth be told, I'm a 2'9"-er on a good day and hoping to be a 3' soon, maybe more, who knows? I'm not going to limit myself. When I came back to riding a 9 years ago, I thought I'd always be a 2'3"-er. Then I bought a horse that made me feel like I could do 3'6" easily, although we never got there. Now the whole world is open. It might take me a while, but I'm not going to limit myself...I'll just take it as it comes.

I AM sad that my 2'9" classes don't fill. What happens if I make it to 3'? My hopes of finding an affordable show that offers 3' hunters that will fill is remote. I get why people stay where they are, and more power to them but just because I want to do more (and wouldn't mind it if others around me did as well) doesn't make me a heifer, a bitter betty, or a railbird.

danceronice
Nov. 7, 2010, 07:03 PM
It doesn't make you a heifer to want to rider higher--I think the OP was talking about the people who not only jump bigger but sit around sneering at the people who don't for whatever reason and act as if the lower-level riders are just ruining the show by their mere presence (ignoring, as others have mentioned, where that revenue stream is coming from--if the 3'6" divisions made them the most money, management would cater to them.)

To use another of my non-horse analogies ;)--some people may have seen "America's Ballroom Challenge" on PBS. That's the Open Professional finals in the four styles at Ohio Star Ball. Those dancers are twenty-four entries in the four divisions of FIFTEEN THOUSAND entries at OSB. The overwhelming majority of those 15,000 entries are piddly little pro-ammers like me. The other 'if you only go to one comp this year' competition, USDSC, is similar. There are frequently people in those Open Pro finals who make finals or semi-finals at the UK Open, the most prestigious competition in the world. And they do not begrudge the presence of people like me, who, for whatever reason, are never going to be that good. Yes, there's tons of us, yes, we maybe aren't as serious about it--but we pay a lot of money to do it, we may even be THEIR students! If any of the top pros resent having to 'slum' at the same competition with the pre-bronze kids, they aren't dumb enough to say it when anyone else can hear.

twosixorbust
Nov. 7, 2010, 07:21 PM
I am reminded of a recent moment I had while out shopping. The Mike Posner song "cooler then me" came on the radio and I immedietly heard a woman exclaiming how much she hated and couldn't stand the song. Someone asked her why, and she said she just did. Looking over I saw a woman with a blaze orange safety vest tan, bleached and straightened hair, penciled on eyebrows, nails that a bald eagle would be envious of, and boobs like snowglobes. I got a huge kick out of the irony of it. Seriously, I think everyone is entitled to at least one snarky retaliation if their idea of riding is trashed so throughly. You want to make fun of my closing circle that was more of a trapezoid, or how I shouted "praise Jesus!" when I got my flying changes go ahead. Don't snark about the height of a fence I deem not pee in my breeches worthy.


I guess if we are going to seperate the "elite" shows from the "everyone else" shows then we should make sure that all of those who are content to jump around 2' 6" and below have seperate all be it much shorter water fountains as well.

Putting on my serious face, I personally don't have the money to show at real people shows. If I did I'd love to sneak my 2' 6" self in and live amongst the greatest and famousest in the limelight with fences that actually have brush under them. Swoon. I think it's all up to show management. At my last show I was done and back to the barn in less then an hour. I waited a trip or two between my rides and I smartly trotted in as soon as the other rider finished their opening circle. Maybe that's not how everyone does it, but I'd like to get the general panic and terror at finding 7 fences (maybe when I'm a big girl they'll give me 8, but right now that's too much to handle) over with as quickly as possible. If you had enough rings for the day, judges that were on time, and officials that made sure the start time was an honest 8am instead of a whenever that guy that thinks he's zen gardening is done dragging it wouldn't take so long.

RugBug
Nov. 7, 2010, 07:26 PM
It doesn't make you a heifer to want to rider higher--I think the OP was talking about the people who not only jump bigger but sit around sneering at the people who don't for whatever reason and act as if the lower-level riders are just ruining the show by their mere presence (ignoring, as others have mentioned, where that revenue stream is coming from--if the 3'6" divisions made them the most money, management would cater to them.)

As a show manager, I know what divisions fill for me, but I still won't cater to them (or do whatever it takes just to line my pockets). I've been asked for poles classes, but I do not want to run them. There's another schooling show in my area that has age division poles, leadline poles, age division w/t etc. I think the crossrails start at class # 20 or so. I point those people to them.

I love helping people start out their showing career or giving them a place to get mileage for their greenies, or just a place where they can ride in a division they want to ride in, but I've lost all my higher competitors. I'm lucky if I get anyone in the 2'9". I run anything 3' and over as a schooling round 'cause I'm tired of buying ribbons for classes that get cancelled due to lack of entries.

I completely understand the riders in the bigger divisions grousing about having to wait around all day only to have their division cancelled. It sucks. Then they don't want to come back b/c they think it will happen again. It's a bit of a vicious cycle.

No one should be looking down on the lower divisions. We all start...and end...somewhere. I couldn't care less if someone wants to stay in 2'6" their whole life...I just hope there are enough that want to move up so that I can have some competition when I get to my ending point.

paw
Nov. 7, 2010, 08:40 PM
Having fun with your horse is what it's all about! If you don't want to jump higher than <whatever> height, it's no skin off my nose...

OTOH, I *do* hate seeing the jumpers run at much less than 3', unless they're rewarding "optimal" time (which, alas, they don't at the shows I go to). Dinky jumpers - and I'll admit that I'm still not comfortable at 3' - can really be a menace at the lowest heights, what with people riding hell-bent-for-leather over the equivalent of speed bumps.

Pennywell Bay
Nov. 7, 2010, 08:42 PM
No need to be condescending.

It's both distracting and dangerous for a couple little ones getting their weekend up-down lesson to be plunking around the jumper warm up while rated classes are running.

I attended a rated show a little while back when poles-on-the-ground was offered as a division.

I pulled my horse out of a fence to avoid jumping and landing on a pony with a child on it. Twice. I witnessed another pony in the lesson kick a horse warming up for the same class I was in. The "trainer" stood by idly while this happened. When the first child on a pony wandered in front of my jump as we were leaving the ground I made a hard turn and wiped out the standard with my knee to avoid them. I ended up having to scratch my class.

These kids and their "trainer" were hours wrong for their poles on the ground or crossrail division.

Therefore, I don't believe that the A show is something that should be designed as open to all with a horse. The idea of a section for everyone serves no one well, or even safely sometimes.

Well- I ( long, drawn out IIIIIII) had to pull up MY very nice hunter in front of a fence when a hunter-haired, snotty-poo-poo face decided to stop in front of it so her groom could spit polish her boot. So? I ( my horse) am agile enough I did not wipe out the standard and scratch my class. Those are the breaks. I rolled my eyes and continued on. I guess I could whine about how people who are brainless should not be at shows but then - not a lot of us would be left now- would we?:lol:

GreystoneKC
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:20 PM
and officials that made sure the start time was an honest 8am instead of a whenever that guy that thinks he's zen gardening is done dragging it wouldn't take so long.

Bahahahahahaha BEST QUOTE EVER!


OTOH, I *do* hate seeing the jumpers run at much less than 3', unless they're rewarding "optimal" time (which, alas, they don't at the shows I go to). Dinky jumpers - and I'll admit that I'm still not comfortable at 3' - can really be a menace at the lowest heights, what with people riding hell-bent-for-leather over the equivalent of speed bumps.

I can't agree on this one. I like the low level jumpers. Now, maybe this is because I have students who do it, but that's fair enough. I try to teach my students how to do the jumpers properly. They are small ponies and young riders and green horses... do they deserve to stay home and not show until they can jump 3' (which, in the case of the small, will never happen)? I agree, some of the people scare me. But maybe kharma will help with that. Maybe they will win and live to see another day. It's not enough to make me not want to see the division run. It helps me shape the jumper riders and horses of tomorrow and that's part of my job.

You want to deny this adorableness? http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5462747&id=272536481888&fbid=459692501888

mvp
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:41 PM
Look, everyone, even the Big Jumpin' Dogs learned to jump 2'6" before they jumped bigger. No one begrudges the 2'6"er their venue, per se.

As far as I can tell, there are three kinds of complaints--

1) About show managers and the plain fact that there are only so many hours in a day. This is about scarcity, that's all.

2) The fact that some of the folks jumping the little stuff also can't reliably control their horses in shared areas like schooling rings. But I'll be first to complain about the trainer who hogs schooling fences or the wreckless horse and rider who is a moving hazard.... over any size fence. The danger (or inconvenience) causes by riders who are brought to show before they can control their horses is a legitimate gripe. You must admit it happens more often in schooling rings full of Little Jump-ers rather than ones for divisions where the fences are larger and, on average, riders have more experience and skill.

3) The fact that when so many 2'6" become the Divisions of Choice for show managers, there are fewer for people who want to continue with their riding and jump bigger.

I mention #3 because the OP or others may sooner or later find themselves in the other guy's position.

If showing can serve everyone, that's great. That's what it should do. But when the longer term goal of learning to do more than jump out of stride gets lost because of lack of the higher divisions, I think we all lose in the long term.

twosixorbust
Nov. 7, 2010, 09:53 PM
I think that MVP has it backwards. I think that more people wanted to stay at 2' 6" which is why show managers began offering more 2' 6" classes. If you refuse to offer classes that people want, then don't be surprised when people stop showing up.

Are you saying that I will never learn to jump out of stride only jumping 2' 6"? Exactly at what height do I learn how to do that and why can't I do it at the height I want? Have you never seen someone jumping 2' 6" out of stride? Why does your long term goal have to be the same as everyone else?

Sure, the lower level divisions are often full of people that have trouble with simple concepts like steering and ring manners. That's where better trainers come into play. Maybe if the lower level divisions weren't so worthless to the hot shot trainer people would have better role models and instructors. Maybe creating an atmosphere where 2' 6" people were also important would encourage better skills and training.

What exactly are we losing when people make the choice to stay at 2' 6"? Cool points for jumping a fence that's taller then you? Will Earth suddenly be destroyed to make way for a new hyperspace bypass? A throwback to where women were only viewed through sepia?

3Dogs
Nov. 7, 2010, 10:27 PM
I think that MVP has it backwards. I think that more people wanted to stay at 2' 6" which is why show managers began offering more 2' 6" classes. If you refuse to offer classes that people want, then don't be surprised when people stop showing up.

Are you saying that I will never learn to jump out of stride only jumping 2' 6"? Exactly at what height do I learn how to do that and why can't I do it at the height I want? Have you never seen someone jumping 2' 6" out of stride? Why does your long term goal have to be the same as everyone else?

Sure, the lower level divisions are often full of people that have trouble with simple concepts like steering and ring manners. That's where better trainers come into play. Maybe if the lower level divisions weren't so worthless to the hot shot trainer people would have better role models and instructors. Maybe creating an atmosphere where 2' 6" people were also important would encourage better skills and training.

What exactly are we losing when people make the choice to stay at 2' 6"? Cool points for jumping a fence that's taller then you? Will Earth suddenly be destroyed to make way for a new hyperspace bypass? A throwback to where women were only viewed through sepia?

whoa, after this rant, all I can ask is "why so angry dear?"

AnotherRound
Nov. 7, 2010, 10:29 PM
I haven't even ridden in a while (and used to jump higher) but I would be proud to cheer you on over a 2'6" course any day!!

Woohoooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, I love tweed jackets *swoon*

Right? Used to make 4 plus courses for me and my mare when I was a kid. come to find out now that I am sane, a course well jumped at a safe height is a tidy, well jumped course. SO much more to it than height.

I am sure the OP does not give the "railbirds" alot of room in her life, but once and a while its useful just to ream them out a bit, to put that kind of thinking in its place - "not what's good for me, thanks, have fun and ride well".

Nice OP.

hntrjmprpro45
Nov. 7, 2010, 10:43 PM
There is nothing wrong with maxing out at 2'6" but like I said earlier (and what I think others were also saying) is that because 2'6" is relatively low, it's easier to make mistakes and get away with it. This is the exact reason why 2'6" is perfect for beginners, adults lacking confidence and green horses. However, it's also the very reason why many people cringe at the idea of people never progressing further. Most people tend to stop challenging themselves once they get really "set" in their comfort zone.

Why is that anyone elses business? Because management tends to cater to the majority and so it effects everyone else who shows. I think it really hurts the riders who really want to move up but don't have the money for rated shows. Don't we all complain that our sport is geared toward the most wealthy? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that 3'-3'6" classes aren't offered or well attended in the local shows.

It's a touchy subject... I think there is nothing wrong with jumping 2'6" if that is the right decision for you and your horse but don't be surprised if some people don't like it.

Madeline
Nov. 7, 2010, 11:55 PM
There is nothing wrong with maxing out at 2'6" but like I said earlier (and what I think others were also saying) is that because 2'6" is relatively low, it's easier to make mistakes and get away with it. This is the exact reason why 2'6" is perfect for beginners, adults lacking confidence and green horses. However, it's also the very reason why many people cringe at the idea of people never progressing further. Most people tend to stop challenging themselves once they get really "set" in their comfort zone.



It's hard to do 2'6" really well.

It's really easy to ingrain dangerous habits by doing 2'6" less well. Horses learn that it doesn't really matter where they take off- the fence is so low that almost any distance is good enough. This becomes dangerous when riders (and trainers and judges) start to believe that "smooth and even" is more important than accurate. Since there's no penalty for error, there's no incentive to be more correct. And there's the problem.

Big_Grey_hunter
Nov. 8, 2010, 06:51 AM
It's hard to do 2'6" really well.

It's really easy to ingrain dangerous habits by doing 2'6" less well. Horses learn that it doesn't really matter where they take off- the fence is so low that almost any distance is good enough. This becomes dangerous when riders (and trainers and judges) start to believe that "smooth and even" is more important than accurate. Since there's no penalty for error, there's no incentive to be more correct. And there's the problem.

Ha! My 3' horse thinks 2'6" is silly. He likes to try and leave 2 strides away, just for the fun of it. At 2ft, he likes taking out strides, leaving from the next state over, and playing jumper by galloping around like a loon. Put the jumps to 3' and he starts listening. Much easier to jump 3' on this fool! However, in general I do agree. Its both harder to find the correct distance at 2'6" and easier to get away with a bad distance.

magnolia73
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:09 AM
Can I just say that just because people only feel comfortable jumping small jumps does not mean they can't handle schooling rings. The 3 worst people to ride with at my barn are all people who jump the big jumps. Nice people, yes, but damn near impossible to ride with if they are jumping. I think the fearlessness that allows them to jump big jumps makes them *not think* about giving others in the ring a decent leeway.

If you can jump a 2'6 course, you can &%%&^% steer unless you are grossly incompetent.

meupatdoes
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:38 AM
I think that MVP has it backwards. I think that more people wanted to stay at 2' 6" which is why show managers began offering more 2' 6" classes. If you refuse to offer classes that people want, then don't be surprised when people stop showing up.

Are you saying that I will never learn to jump out of stride only jumping 2' 6"? Exactly at what height do I learn how to do that and why can't I do it at the height I want? Have you never seen someone jumping 2' 6" out of stride? Why does your long term goal have to be the same as everyone else?

Sure, the lower level divisions are often full of people that have trouble with simple concepts like steering and ring manners. That's where better trainers come into play. Maybe if the lower level divisions weren't so worthless to the hot shot trainer people would have better role models and instructors. Maybe creating an atmosphere where 2' 6" people were also important would encourage better skills and training.

What exactly are we losing when people make the choice to stay at 2' 6"? Cool points for jumping a fence that's taller then you? Will Earth suddenly be destroyed to make way for a new hyperspace bypass? A throwback to where women were only viewed through sepia?

OK, I get your point, but can I just draw your attention to the fact that you greatly overestimate the level of the Rest of the World's Enmity Toward the 2'6"ers?

Yes, of course it is nice to put on the long suffering victim hat and play that card (which you are doing to the hilt), but the real impetus for your rant here are the like, 6 people on COTH who consistently post what a waste of time they think the 2'6" division is. There are also like 6 people in the dressage forums who think Intro is the bane of dressage and that the rule change to allow posting at First is harbringing the apocalypse, and who knows when the last time was they stepped in the ring and rode FEI.

So yeah.
There are roughly 6 people on the internet who act like unsportsmanly a-holes about the 2'6" divisions and lower level riders.

I doubt you have ever encountered such sentiments in real life, so probably we can have our little rant about the 6 turds and then all carry on with our lives and life as we know it will continue to be pretty much fine.
Nobody is ACTUALLY making you miserable about riding 2'6" in real life.

myalter1
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:42 AM
Agreed Magnolia and I completely agree. I SUCK at riding in schooling rings. When I was younger, I showed 3'6 and bigger and there is no way i am ever, or will ever be comfortable in schooling rings, or schooling breaks. In fact, i can't even school in a schooling break at a C show. I just watch others ride the lines. Some people that I know who show 2'6 are great in schooling.

God Help me when my OTTB and i actually get to show. I think i may have to pay someone to school him. I really suck. If i don't school, i can go in and lay down a great trip. If i school, I am all frazzled and botch it..

Eventer55
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:56 AM
Hey, OP come on over to the dark side (eventing) I just posted the other day about how long can anyone stay in the BN division and a number of people, some of them officials said "Forever." Which is great because I may be there a while. . .

Nobody cares and having fun is mandatory damit!!!!! :lol:

LeisaA
Nov. 8, 2010, 09:15 AM
I'm glad you're enjoying your riding and your horse.

I have to tell you, though, even if you were showing in the Regular Working Hunters at 4' or the Grand Prix classes, there would still be people sitting on the sidelines (or on their computers!) carping and criticizing your choices for something or other. Some people just get a kick out of it. Ignore them.

As long as you have a happy, healthy horse and you're having fun with him, who cares what anybody else thinks? :)

This! Exactly!

tikidoc
Nov. 8, 2010, 09:20 AM
Hey, OP come on over to the dark side (eventing) I just posted the other day about how long can anyone stay in the BN division and a number of people, some of them officials said "Forever." Which is great because I may be there a while. . .

Nobody cares and having fun is mandatory damit!!!!! :lol:

Agreed. Another lower level eventer here. I last evented Novice but will be back at BN for a while both due to horse injury and little time for riding in the last year. And if I never get to Training, I am fine with that, if I can do Novice well.

The eventing world is very accepting of people like me, which is one of the reasons I am happier eventing than I was in the H/J world. I have been lucky enough to take lessons from a former 4 star event winner, and we have had a number of discussions about this. I joked about how silly I must sound to him being nervous about jumping Novice XC jumps, and he said that he has the exact same feelings, just with bigger jumps, so he understands and does not look down on me because of it. I was never lucky enough to ride with a H/J trainer with a similar attitude.

tbsrule
Nov. 8, 2010, 09:26 AM
Hey, OP come on over to the dark side (eventing) I just posted the other day about how long can anyone stay in the BN division and a number of people, some of them officials said "Forever." Which is great because I may be there a while. . .
Nobody cares and having fun is mandatory damit!!!!! :lol:

And in Eventing there are starting times that are mostly respected for each and every rider - so NO waiting around and for hours.
Why there cannot be riding times posted in H/J shows?

Another one of my problems with H/J - the non existence of respected jumping direction in warm up area - very distracting if not dangerous to have warm up jumps done in either direction and in an often crowded warm up ring...???

Any of the H/J show organizers can respond please?

EMWalker
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:17 AM
There are 500 other threads of why eventing is better and vice versa -- do we really need another one?? Really??

If you follow the "rules" of the warm up then you should be fine -- try to pass left shoulder to left shoulder, and people jumping have the right - a -way because they are getting ready to head to the ring sooner. Jumpers school in their own ring. I don't care WHAT height you ride at -- if you are good enough to jump and show then you should be good enough to steer around a warm up ring. If not, you probably should not be showing and should be spending time learning how to steer correctly. When it doubt -- pull up and let the other person steer around you.

If you have a maniac horse that is dangerous then you also shouldn't probably be horse showing - stay home, teach your horse some manners.

No matter the height you jump, if you are courteous and careful in the warm up ring then there shouldn't be a problem.

And for those of you who were belittled by a h/j trainer you obviously were not with the right trainer. I ride with a BNT and we have riders at ALL levels at our barn and we ALL respect each other and cheer each other on at horse shows.

InWhyCee Redux
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:31 AM
I jump 2' 6", I show 2' 6" I have the time of my life and there is so much more for me to work on. I have no earthly desire to ever jump above 2' 6"


As an adult re-rider who dreams of the day when she can cleanly jump a 2' 6" course again, but has no intention of ever buying a 4' horse just so she can be a so-called "real" equestrian again: AMEN, HURRAH, THANK YOU, and YOU RULE!

CatOnLap
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:46 AM
Are you saying that I will never learn to jump out of stride only jumping 2' 6"? Exactly at what height do I learn how to do that and why can't I do it at the height I want?

"Militant Two-sixer stands up for her rights!"

Of course you can learn to jump difficult approaches, bounces,sharp turns, speed jumps, etc, at 2'6". Probably best to start at that height or lower in training anyway! Most horses can "rescue" themselves from bad riding at that height and you are unlikely to wreck and that is a very good thing.

I love jumping around that height myself and set up little obstacles to challenge my horses when we get bored of other ringwork. We do odd striding, odd approaches, odd obstacles, skinnies, etc.

Its fun. Its NOT hard- whoever said it was, has to get riding more. Or enjoy it more. Something.

The OP has a green horse, and its appropriate to compete at that level while it is putting the miles on. But the OP doesn't want to move up once she has accomplished that task, and that's the part I don't understand. Why compete then?

If you compete, railbirds are going to be there, and sometimes they get worse the higher you go. Those people need to learn how to enjoy it more too!

foursocks
Nov. 8, 2010, 11:14 AM
I am happy when people figure out what they are happy doing- be it not ever jumping, or aiming for the GP ring, and everything in between. I love jumping big, even after I came back to riding at 33 after college and grad school. I can't imagine not doing it- but I can also completely understand and support my friends' desires to jump over smaller things. I have no axe to grind with personal comfort level- I was surprised as anyone to find that I (still) have no fear of heights. I trust my horse, he trusts me and we jump whatever is in front of us!

But, with absolutely no smear on the above sentiment, it is discouraging when I need to take my green jumper out for easy mileage and I can't find local jumper shows offering anything above 3'. Oxers set standard to standard with no real width, billions of turn-and-burners ripping up the 2'3"-2'6" courses, and four of us waiting to go until dusk for the 3'+ divisions.

I can't help being saddened by this, I'm sorry! It directly affects the quality of mileage I can get at the cheaper shows- in the height/width of the fences, the quality of the course design, and the level of competition available to hone our skills against.

Luckily, the next county over appears to be offering some larger divisions, so perhaps next year we can travel a bit farther for better competition. After that, we'll hit the rateds and hopefully find our niche in the A/Os someday!

mvp
Nov. 8, 2010, 12:28 PM
Wait a sec. Whose' got the chip perched on shoulder now?


I think that MVP has it backwards. I think that more people wanted to stay at 2' 6" which is why show managers began offering more 2' 6" classes. If you refuse to offer classes that people want, then don't be surprised when people stop showing up.

Are you saying that I will never learn to jump out of stride only jumping 2' 6"? Exactly at what height do I learn how to do that and why can't I do it at the height I want? Have you never seen someone jumping 2' 6" out of stride? Why does your long term goal have to be the same as everyone else?

Sure, the lower level divisions are often full of people that have trouble with simple concepts like steering and ring manners. That's where better trainers come into play. Maybe if the lower level divisions weren't so worthless to the hot shot trainer people would have better role models and instructors. Maybe creating an atmosphere where 2' 6" people were also important would encourage better skills and training.

What exactly are we losing when people make the choice to stay at 2' 6"? Cool points for jumping a fence that's taller then you? Will Earth suddenly be destroyed to make way for a new hyperspace bypass? A throwback to where women were only viewed through sepia?


I don't think I got the causes of flourishing 2'6" divisions *backward* so much as I was considering the difference between *is* (how things are now) and *ought* (how they could be different if we wanted to pursue one agenda or another.

For the record, I don't think two things:

1) That Jumping Big (or Little, for that matter) means diddly about your worth as person.

2) That The World As We Know and Love It will materially change if a bunch of horse shows for hobbiests in North America jump horses a foot higher or lower.

I did mean three things:

1) When you master the 2'6", you might change your tune and find yourself wishing for the next division that will keep you interested and progressing.

2) Speaking directly about the "jumping out of stride" comment. You misunderstood. I don't think that "no one will learn to jump out of stride over a 2'6" fence, as you seem to imply I did. On the contrary. I think most horses will jump out of stride until you get to fences bigger than 3'. Above that, the skill involved in picking a distance from which the horse will actually have to jump is different and greater. One of my long term goals as a rider is to get "balls on accurate" at this.

3) Having many 2'6" divisions will attract trainers to that segment of the available set of clients. It already has. But, I think anyone would agree that when you lower the fences, it means that people newer to riding, naturally with a tad less skill, will find themselves in the Battle Field that is the H/J schooling ring. So making the 2'6" ring of serious interest to even the best in the business will not fix this problem.

Again, for my own greedy goal-oriented purpose of having somewhere to show once I have mastered Little Hunters, I also want to make sure that the pros out there have not based their businesses on riding and training over little fences. When I want to jump bigger, I want to make sure I can find someone with the skill and experience that will take me there.

Please don't mistake this for anger. It's just thinking in detail, that's all.

mvp
Nov. 8, 2010, 12:29 PM
Wait a sec. Who's got the chip perched on shoulder now?


I think that MVP has it backwards. I think that more people wanted to stay at 2' 6" which is why show managers began offering more 2' 6" classes. If you refuse to offer classes that people want, then don't be surprised when people stop showing up.

Are you saying that I will never learn to jump out of stride only jumping 2' 6"? Exactly at what height do I learn how to do that and why can't I do it at the height I want? Have you never seen someone jumping 2' 6" out of stride? Why does your long term goal have to be the same as everyone else?

Sure, the lower level divisions are often full of people that have trouble with simple concepts like steering and ring manners. That's where better trainers come into play. Maybe if the lower level divisions weren't so worthless to the hot shot trainer people would have better role models and instructors. Maybe creating an atmosphere where 2' 6" people were also important would encourage better skills and training.

What exactly are we losing when people make the choice to stay at 2' 6"? Cool points for jumping a fence that's taller then you? Will Earth suddenly be destroyed to make way for a new hyperspace bypass? A throwback to where women were only viewed through sepia?


I don't think I got the causes of flourishing 2'6" divisions *backward* so much as I was considering the difference between *is* (how things are now) and *ought* (how they could be different if we wanted to pursue one agenda or another.

For the record, I don't think two things:

1) That Jumping Big (or Little, for that matter) means diddly about your worth as person.

2) That The World As We Know and Love It will materially change if a bunch of horse shows for hobbiests in North America jump horses a foot higher or lower.

I did mean three things:

1) When you master the 2'6", you might change your tune and find yourself wishing for the next division that will keep you interested and progressing.

2) Speaking directly about the "jumping out of stride" comment. You misunderstood. I don't think that "no one will learn to jump out of stride over a 2'6" fence, as you seem to imply I did. On the contrary. I think most horses will jump out of stride until you get to fences bigger than 3'. Above that, the skill involved in picking a distance from which the horse will actually have to jump is different and greater. One of my long term goals as a rider is to get "balls on accurate" at this.

3) Having many 2'6" divisions will attract trainers to that segment of the available set of clients. It already has. But, I think anyone would agree that when you lower the fences, it means that people newer to riding, naturally with a tad less skill, will find themselves in the Battle Field that is the H/J schooling ring. So making the 2'6" ring of serious interest to even the best in the business will not fix this problem.

Again, for my own greedy goal-oriented purpose of having somewhere to show once I have mastered Little Hunters, I also want to make sure that the pros out there have not based their businesses on riding and training over little fences. When I want to jump bigger, I want to make sure I can find someone with the skill and experience that will take me there.

Please don't mistake this for anger. It's just thinking in detail, that's all.

Moesha
Nov. 8, 2010, 12:50 PM
Just a note.....

The OP's post is relevant here....maybe not for many posting on this particular thread but over the years the trashing of this division and that and anything below this height or level, has been unrelenting at times, maybe do some searches in the archives for insight on the OPS vocalization, it is equally amazing that many people making the comments, in those past discussions did not show at any level much less even the one's they were attacking...of course many of the critical comments are relevant, but the attitudes like the one's on the 500,000 3'3" derby are really ridiculous at times...if you don't like divisions below a certain height then....don't show in them? If you think the 3'3" hunter derbys should not be held..then don't hold then at your shows...or ride in them.

I think for me, nothing is black and white, we all learn lessons sometimes the hard way..I know I have, about opinions, but horses teach us so many things if we try to learn and listen and one of those is to be humble....you never know what next year will bring or what the next experience might shed light on...and sadly far too many times the ideology profused online is far from the practice of those spouting it.

mvp
Nov. 8, 2010, 01:05 PM
And another thing (read: I'm veering into a rant, so ignore as it pleases you).



What exactly are we losing when people make the choice to stay at 2' 6"? Cool points for jumping a fence that's taller then you? Will Earth suddenly be destroyed to make way for a new hyperspace bypass? A throwback to where women were only viewed through sepia?

The argument that the 2'6" divisions ought to stay because they don't promise Armageddon is disingenuous. What I think you mean to argue is that "I should get what I want because it's a minor concession." But insofar as Armageddon is not assured if showing starts at 3' or even 3'6" either, then doesn't that argument from triviality also justify the other side's position?

tidy rabbit
Nov. 8, 2010, 01:13 PM
Oh brother.

mvp
Nov. 8, 2010, 01:18 PM
Oh brother.


TR! You gotta get riled up! If this doesn't get worked out now, the World will don sepia colored glasses and view you through them forever and ever.


Personally, I think my skin would look awesome in sepia all the time. So perhaps I should change my position with respect to Jumping Big or Jumping Dinky.

tidy rabbit
Nov. 8, 2010, 01:21 PM
TR! You gotta get riled up!

So far from riled up, you couldn't imagine.

I stand by my original comment, "Oh brother."

mvp
Nov. 8, 2010, 01:24 PM
So far from riled up, you couldn't imagine.

I stand my original comment, "Oh brother."

Is that because you have airbrushed skin?

chunky munky
Nov. 8, 2010, 01:32 PM
And in Eventing there are starting times that are mostly respected for each and every rider - so NO waiting around and for hours.
Why there cannot be riding times posted in H/J shows?

Another one of my problems with H/J - the non existence of respected jumping direction in warm up area - very distracting if not dangerous to have warm up jumps done in either direction and in an often crowded warm up ring...???

Any of the H/J show organizers can respond please?

Because usually 50%of hunter riders post enter. If you attend a year end or championship show where all entries need to have qualified and are sent in early you will have a pretty good idea of when you will go, as in 30 trips ahead of you at 2 minutes a trip, etc. Some shows do have an estimated schedule.
If all entries entered early and did no adds or scratches that would be possible. And you will then ask why we allow late entries and add/scratches? Because our public demands that service. Does it make it difficult to do your show schedule not having a viable class count? You betcha! And that is why some days can go until 7:30 pm or so.

theinstigator
Nov. 8, 2010, 01:50 PM
Because usually 50%of hunter riders post enter. If you attend a year end or championship show where all entries need to have qualified and are sent in early you will have a pretty good idea of when you will go, as in 30 trips ahead of you at 2 minutes a trip, etc. Some shows do have an estimated schedule.
If all entries entered early and did no adds or scratches that would be possible. And you will then ask why we allow late entries and add/scratches? Because our public demands that service. Does it make it difficult to do your show schedule not having a viable class count? You betcha! And that is why some days can go until 7:30 pm or so.
No, don't blame the post entries! Blame the trainer "I have 8 horses that I have to ride at the same time in different rings" conflicts! :winkgrin:

I'm with TR on this one.

MHM
Nov. 8, 2010, 02:22 PM
And another thing (read: I'm veering into a rant, so ignore as it pleases you).

What a great preface!

That should be used a lot by many posters on this BB. ;)

chunky munky
Nov. 8, 2010, 02:28 PM
No, don't blame the post entries! Blame the trainer "I have 8 horses that I have to ride at the same time in different rings" conflicts! :winkgrin:

I'm with TR on this one.

Most well run horse shows will give trainers a priority ring, usually the one that has the most rounds per day. Good management will go to the riders and get them to work with the starters and set up a tentative schedule for them the night before.
There will be a certain amount of conflict at some shows. If it really bothers you that much, don't go to the shows with eight rings!

equidae
Nov. 8, 2010, 05:30 PM
I think that MVP has it backwards. I think that more people wanted to stay at 2' 6" which is why show managers began offering more 2' 6" classes. If you refuse to offer classes that people want, then don't be surprised when people stop showing up.

Are you saying that I will never learn to jump out of stride only jumping 2' 6"? Exactly at what height do I learn how to do that and why can't I do it at the height I want? Have you never seen someone jumping 2' 6" out of stride? Why does your long term goal have to be the same as everyone else?

Sure, the lower level divisions are often full of people that have trouble with simple concepts like steering and ring manners. That's where better trainers come into play. Maybe if the lower level divisions weren't so worthless to the hot shot trainer people would have better role models and instructors. Maybe creating an atmosphere where 2' 6" people were also important would encourage better skills and training.

What exactly are we losing when people make the choice to stay at 2' 6"? Cool points for jumping a fence that's taller then you? Will Earth suddenly be destroyed to make way for a new hyperspace bypass? A throwback to where women were only viewed through sepia?

Ok, it's time for you to get a grip. You are beginning to lose effect here as the chip on your shoulder becomes more and more apparent. I'm not saying this because I disagree with the essence of your post, (I don't), but you're saying on one side that you want respect for having less lofty goals than someone else may have, but then on the other hand making snotty remarks towards those whose goals are 'bigger' than yours, all in that same condescending tone you claim to abhor. You're just taking on the same color now as everyone else..

(And what's more, all of this ranting is starting to stink like an inferiority complex that no one is responsible for but yourself).

katie+tru
Nov. 8, 2010, 06:17 PM
Give me a break & get over yourself. Some of us actually enjoy the level we're at - and are competitive at it! Competitive is a state of mind, not a fence height.


Erm... I didn't mean that be offensive. I meant that while I am happy right now pursuing a competitive life I realize that one day that may not be what I want anymore, let alone possible. That's why I'm very understanding of people in the OP's situation. I understand that it could very well be me one day. By "competitive" I meant things like recognized shows, upper levels, and in the same divisions as pros.

Sorry, I'm an eventer. Mabe it has a different connotation to H/Jers. Most people who event "just for fun" are either doing the low levels at recognized trials or just going to mini-trials and combined tests... in other words, not official.

Goodness. People are very sensitive here.

RugBug
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:01 PM
By "competitive" I meant things like recognized shows, upper levels, and in the same divisions as pros.

Sorry, I'm an eventer. Mabe it has a different connotation to H/Jers. Most people who event "just for fun" are either doing the low levels at recognized trials or just going to mini-trials and combined tests... in other words, not official.

Goodness. People are very sensitive here.

I would suggest putting the shovel down before you dig the hole deeper. :winkgrin:

That might be what "competitive" means to you...but that isn't what it means to everyone. I want to be competitive anywhere I go. I'm disappointed when no one shows up to be competitive with...or the people who do are clearly over their heads (although I've got to admit I've been beaten by a few of those in my day :lol:). There's very little worse than consolation ribbons, IMO.

You can bet when I did a recognized BN horse trial that I felt "official" and extremely competitive. I wouldn't have minded competing against the pros on their greenies if need be...makes me better and makes the results more meaningful.

CBoylen
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:04 PM
Another one of my problems with H/J - the non existence of respected jumping direction in warm up area - very distracting if not dangerous to have warm up jumps done in either direction and in an often crowded warm up ring...????
Only one person should be jumping each fence during the same time period. It is dangerous only if you are trying to jump someone else's fence, without asking so that they know to look out for you.

katie+tru
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:10 PM
That might be what "competitive" means to you...but that isn't what it means to everyone.



That's my point. I realize it's different for everyone and that it often changes in a person's lifetime. That's why I said I respect the OP's stance completely.

I really don't understand (or appreciate) you getting on my case when I clearly agree with what's being said by the majority of folks here, including you. Sorry if you keep misinterpreting every word I say, but that's not my fault.

RugBug
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:14 PM
That's my point. I realize it's different for everyone and that it often changes in a person's lifetime. That's why I said I respect the OP's stance completely.

I really don't understand (or appreciate) you getting on my case when I clearly agree with what's being said by the majority of folks here, including you. Sorry if you keep misinterpreting every word I say, but that's not my fault.

:rolleyes: I'm thinking it wasn't as clear as you think it was if a few people have taken it the wrong way. If you are being unclear, it very well may be your fault and not those that are reading vague words.

BTW - I reread your post and it still sounds like you think being competitive means upper levels, recognized, etc and that those that aren't doing that aren't competitive. It also sounds like you believe the lower levels are just for fun and someday you will no longer what to be competitive and may join those fun seekers who aren't competitive.

twosixorbust
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:44 PM
Actually I enjoy watching people jumping the bigger fences and really admire the skill and ease with which they do it. I've also never run into the same hatred of the 2' 6" rider at my shows as I have on this BB. Which is the reason for the rant.

I have been to shows where the 2' 6" riders go first and then all day, and the 3' 6" riders jump after dark. However, I've also been to shows where the schooling horse classes are going close to 9pm.

My rant is over people who get angry at what I decide is my choice of appropriate fence height and what my goals are. If I don't want to master the difficulty of jumping higher, then that's my deal. If someone else isn't challenged until they jump bigger fences and master that skillset then that's up to them.

To me my division is competitive because I'm up against myself and my own insecurities. If I hold it together and pin well then that's what I want.

lcw579
Nov. 8, 2010, 07:51 PM
TR! You gotta get riled up! If this doesn't get worked out now, the World will don sepia colored glasses and view you through them forever and ever.


Personally, I think my skin would look awesome in sepia all the time. So perhaps I should change my position with respect to Jumping Big or Jumping Dinky.

I agree with you MVP and I am of the age where I think I would look best viewed through cheese cloth please. ;)

I also think that the OP has a chip on her shoulder and an inferiority complex and that very few people really care what height she (or anyone else) cares to jump. I know I don't. I gave up competing decades ago - you know, back when velvet hunt caps and tweed jackets were de rigueur even at the local level where only the ponies jumped 2'6". :winkgrin:

Really, at the end of the day shouldn't it be about having fun and improving your riding? Why insist that you will never move up? Why limit yourself? That, to me at least, is foolish and shortsighted.

cyberbay
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:11 PM
SmileItLooksGood - I totally hear you in your post (way back on p.2, or something). Shows are not a free-for-all: there are rules, traditions, requirements. It is GOOD for people to see if they are READY to try and compete at a horse show. Not just assume it's a lark and a fling.

I didn't hear your post make any slam against a breed -- I think it was a vote for riders taking responsibility for knowing if they and their horses are prepared properly for the classes they are entering. Knowing how to handle a schooling ring. Knowing the difference between being inexperienced and being unprepared.

Am not Sure RAyers grasped this in your post.

As for people who dismiss dangerous riding in the schooling area as "Oh, well!" don't know at all what they're talking about. That is as checked out of reality as you can get.

OP: Just who are these people who get angry over your jump height? Trainer or fellow competitors or? Can you find another crowd to hang with?
I mean, finding 8+ good distances is always an accomplishment. You have obviously made riding and competing a priority, among the other things you have to do (like put food on table) -- that is so great. There are so many people out there who have given up on themselves, and you're not one of them! Hurrah!

3DogNight
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:13 PM
I am one of those 'older' amateurs who, as a young teenager, had to start at 3'+ or not show at all. It did teach me a fearlessness of fence heights that has stuck with me some 35+ years later.

Now, however, as much as I would love to have a 4' Regular Hunter or a 1.25 - 1.35m jumper, physical issues prevent me from showing much above 2.6", if at all. I just had my 5th back surgery 2 weeks ago (all in the last 8 years). It will be another 8 weeks before I can even think of getting back on my mare. She is 20 this coming February, and while her heart is still willing to jump 4'+, her body is most comfortable at 2'6". Prior to this surgery, I wanted to get a young greenie to work with over the winter, maybe move up through the 1st years with, and then sell. That is now out of the question.

If I do make it back to the show ring, it will definitely be at 2'6" where I will be as competitive as I can possibly be, where I will enjoy the $h!t out of my time in the ring, and God help the person who has the nerve to comment about the height I am showing at.

Goals are all well and good, but sometimes life steps in and gives you a little dose of reality that neither quality of horse, trainer, nor number of valiums consumed will make it possible to surpass 2'6", or 2', or w/t.

JackieBlue
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:22 PM
I have to agree here. Sort of ironic, because I have a trainer who has had her fair share of rants about hunters "back in the day". She was part of the generation that had shows that started at 3'-something. I have to admit, I do understand her slight bitterness. I'm sure things felt much more exlusive and special when you had to be riding well enough to do 3' to even start showing. She certainly wasn't sharing the ring with 10 year olds or people that just started. It was probably mostly teens and adults who had ridden for some time. However, presently, someone who's been riding for all of 6 months can do a crossrail class and actually stand a chance at winning. I can see how older folks might find this annoying. They have the thought "We didn't have that option as kids. We just had to learn to ride well enough to meet the requirements to show. The classes didn't come down to meet us."

But as I said, I understand your point of view completely. Not everyone is out to be George. Not every kid is drooling for a Maclay trophy. Horse shows are getting more and more costly to run as less and less people ride horses, so you have to find ways to draw in more people to pay for it all. And most people these days aren't jumping 3'+, so we have to find a way to get them to come and (not to be too frank) give them money. That means lower fences. And that's totally fine. I realize that one day I could very well reach that point in life where I no longer can/want to be seriously competitive and just want to bounce around at the lower levels.


See, why do so many horse folk have this drive to be "exclusive and special"? That's the attitude that turns so many people off from riding as a legitimate sport. :no:

tbsrule
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:29 PM
Only one person should be jumping each fence during the same time period. It is dangerous only if you are trying to jump someone else's fence, without asking so that they know to look out for you.

There are 3 jumps in the warm up - x rail, vertical, oxer and I see one rider going at the vertical left lead and another doing the oxer right lead - the horses spook cause to them it looks like running at each other - Why is this allowed?
I've actually seen the warmup direction marked and posted on the jump course board - but unfortunatelly riders and their trainers ignore this direction. I think next time I will ask the show organizers what is the reason for messy and not enforced dirs in warm up - it is dangerous!!! I don't think I should be screaming out "OXER" to let everybody know my warm up intentions...

I like to send my eventing horses to jumper show 2x/year off their season to freshen up - but the lack of timely ride times and the out of control warm up area = big put off!

I have nothing against riders showing poles or 2'6" or whatever but it would be nice to have ride times - with all the late entries added at the end - 2 minutes for each?
So riders can estimate their time and not to have to hang out mounted for hours... some maybe like it showing off their bling hehe?
I don't even arrive at the Jumper show earlier than maybe 1 hour prior to my horses' class...

CBoylen
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:38 PM
There are 3 jumps in the warm up - x rail, vertical, oxer and I see one rider going at the vertical left lead and another doing the oxer right lead - the horses spook cause to them it looks like running at each other - Why is this allowed?
Are you sure this was a h/j show? Schooling area should have multiple identical jumps, all of which should have four standards and at least four rails, so that all can be used identically.
I have no idea why horses would spook in that situation, since pretty much every schooling area has multiple jumps. If that's happening, that's a training issue.
As to why they're allowed to be jumped both ways, well, it's important to jump off both leads. In most schooling areas there isn't enough room to jump a jump off of both leads without going both ways.


I've actually seen the warmup direction marked and posted on the jump course board - but unfortunatelly riders and their trainers ignore this direction. I think next time I will ask the show organizers what is the reason for messy and not enforced dirs in warm up - it is dangerous!!! I don't think I should be screaming out "OXER" to let everybody know my warm up intentions...

Again, I'm not sure what kind of show you were at. Schooling area jumps wouldn't be marked on a board. If you're talking about a warmup schooling session in the actual show ring, where jumps clearly have a front and a back, most people are smart enough not to jump fences backwards. Those that aren't shouldn't be at a horse show.

Arcadien
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:49 PM
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP (show where/what you want to), I've got to say the tone was off-putting. To me, the Op comes off as the Bitter Betty. :Shrug:
.

Yeah I was applauding her until the tone became offensively denfensive, if you will. OP you forgot brevity is your friend while trying to make a point.

Anyway, I think shows would still be around if the minimum heights were raised a bit. There would just be less of them, and less entries, which would be fine with me. Some "trainers" would go out of business, but I think most agree there are plenty who should anyway ;):yes:

Arcadien
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:53 PM
See, why do so many horse folk have this drive to be "exclusive and special"? That's the attitude that turns so many people off from riding as a legitimate sport. :no:

See I think those with the opinion that riders should have to earn the right to show supports the notion of riding as a legitimate sport, moreso than those who think it should be reduced to something so easy anyone can manage it after a handful of lessons.

Arcadien
Nov. 8, 2010, 08:57 PM
Back, since I've put myself out to be crucified anyway ;) to repeat I think enjoying 2'6" is fine, and it has a place in the show ring too. I just don't think shows ought to go much lower than that, or it becomes a course of "speed bumps".:)

And I have nothing at all against 2'6" lifers, one of them is a good friend and I never give her grief about it.

I'm just saying don't blame some of us for thinking jumping 3'6" is a more impressive achievement.

mvp
Nov. 8, 2010, 09:34 PM
That's my point. I realize it's different for everyone and that it often changes in a person's lifetime. That's why I said I respect the OP's stance completely.


I know peoples' goals change over the course of a lifetime. Look at 3Dogger's situation below. I'd like there to be room for everyone who wants to show to have a place to do it.

But that means you can't walk in pitting Dinky against Tall as if we are talking about how things ought to stay forever. Things change for individuals, so any one of us could find ourselves wishing for a division that suits us and our present horse at any time.

And if it's any consolation, this point is moot at the large shows because management will follow the money.

Now if you want to talk about the inclusion of the (multiple) 2'6" divisions at rated shows such that they gut the local shows, then there's something to discuss. To me, that's because showing locally where I can have a fabulous time for about 1/3 the price is worth keeping. As an adult, I have to swallow hard when thinking about spending $1,500 for a bit of fun. If (when) I finally grow up, I might not be able to think of that as "fun" insofar as I'm aware that I'm not managing my money as I should.


I am one of those 'older' amateurs who, as a young teenager, had to start at 3'+ or not show at all. It did teach me a fearlessness of fence heights that has stuck with me some 35+ years later.

Now, however, as much as I would love to have a 4' Regular Hunter or a 1.25 - 1.35m jumper, physical issues prevent me from showing much above 2.6", if at all. I just had my 5th back surgery 2 weeks ago (all in the last 8 years). It will be another 8 weeks before I can even think of getting back on my mare. She is 20 this coming February, and while her heart is still willing to jump 4'+, her body is most comfortable at 2'6". Prior to this surgery, I wanted to get a young greenie to work with over the winter, maybe move up through the 1st years with, and then sell. That is now out of the question.

If I do make it back to the show ring, it will definitely be at 2'6" where I will be as competitive as I can possibly be, where I will enjoy the $h!t out of my time in the ring, and God help the person who has the nerve to comment about the height I am showing at.

Goals are all well and good, but sometimes life steps in and gives you a little dose of reality that neither quality of horse, trainer, nor number of valiums consumed will make it possible to surpass 2'6", or 2', or w/t.

wanderlust
Nov. 8, 2010, 11:32 PM
See, why do so many horse folk have this drive to be "exclusive and special"? That's the attitude that turns so many people off from riding as a legitimate sport. :no: Well, lets be frank. You are going to be lucky to get away with a total bill of $2-$3k for an 'A' show. That makes the sport unbelievably exclusive and special from a socioeconomic perspective.

I have no problem with the 2'6" at A/AA shows. Some of my favorite barnmates have been the older Low AA ladies, and I'd be so sad if they didn't come to the shows with us. As for the "it pulls divisions away from the schooling shows argument", that is perfectly fine with me... because even if I were on a dead-broke saint, there is nothing I find more terrifying than the warmup rings at schooling shows. At least at the big rated shows, the majority of riders are there with trainers, the warmups aren't scary even when crowded, and the yay-hoo factor is pretty severely limited. You know the lines will be correctly set, the fences will be safely constructed, and you likely won't be run into by a some terrified kid poorly mounted on some rank runaway.

Seriously, you couldn't pay me to take a young horse to a one day schooling show. For that reason, my very green 4yo's first show was this summer at a big AA at the 2'6" baby greens, and he decided horse shows are GREAT. I don't think he would have had the same experience at any of the local schooling shows.

meupatdoes
Nov. 9, 2010, 01:05 AM
Well, lets be frank. You are going to be lucky to get away with a total bill of $2-$3k for an 'A' show.

Only if your trainer charges a RIDICULOUS arm and a leg.

I recently priced out doing the pregreens at Pin Oak and it was around $400 assuming no trainer costs. That was because Pin Oak requires a $200 stall. At the A shows at the exact same venue which don't require a stall you can trailer in for $50 a day and save $100 on a two day division.

So if you stay for five days and your trainer feels the need to bill you an additional $500+ per day, you'll be at $3,000.

Otherwise you can go to Pin Oak, do your own work, and if you want to meet a trainer add $75-100.

I also did a young hunter class at Devon and the total bill was like $300. That entry was only $75, if you add in a $250 or $300 entry for a normal division you are still only at about $500. So whatever the difference is between that and $3,000 is either you doing a million divisions or your trainer raking in money hand over fist.

wanderlust
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:42 AM
meupatdoes, I don't know exactly how Texas shows work, but I can't imagine they are that much different than the ones I attend. The vast majority here do not haul in by themselves for 2 days to an AA show.

On the west coast, the typical AA/AO/Childrens/Junior goes for the full show. Trainers ride them in the pro divisions, then the owner rides them on the weekend. The vast majority do not trailer in because they are not close enough, nor do they own a trailer.

So, fees that 95% of attendees pay look something like this:

stall at $200.
Shavings/hay, lets go with another $50
Hauling at a minimum of $150-$200
Groom at $50/day for 5 days plus tip
Braiding is $75/day for mane/tail
Figure at least $50 of random office fees
$250 a division for 2 divisions, plus the random schooling/open classes before the division classes
Trainer at between $50 and $125/day
Random other costs like setup/teardown, hotel, groom stall split, meds, etc

My fuzzy math is ballparking that at a very minimum of around $1750 using the lowest fees, no extra classes, and braiding every other day. This in addition to what it costs to purchase and then keep a horse boarded and in some kind of program. Let's call a spade just that- it's expensive, even when you do it on the cheap, and out of reach of the large majority of people.

magnolia73
Nov. 9, 2010, 07:26 AM
Having seen many event schooling areas, having a flagged direction on jumps does not do much to make anything any safer. It all comes down to the riders and how courteous they are and how well they communicate. And there will always be some jackass needing to fix lead changes or a stop or something 20 minutes before their class. I have seen this done with both dual direction jumps and single direction jumps.

Eventing needs stewards that will eliminate or penalize dangerous warmer-uppers and hunter/jumpers could use the same.

meupatdoes
Nov. 9, 2010, 07:32 AM
meupatdoes, I don't know exactly how Texas shows work, but I can't imagine they are that much different than the ones I attend. The vast majority here do not haul in by themselves for 2 days to an AA show.

On the west coast, the typical AA/AO/Childrens/Junior goes for the full show. Trainers ride them in the pro divisions, then the owner rides them on the weekend. The vast majority do not trailer in because they are not close enough, nor do they own a trailer.

So, fees that 95% of attendees pay look something like this:

stall at $200.
Shavings/hay, lets go with another $50
Hauling at a minimum of $150-$200
Groom at $50/day for 5 days plus tip
Braiding is $75/day for mane/tail
Figure at least $50 of random office fees
$250 a division for 2 divisions, plus the random schooling/open classes before the division classes
Trainer at between $50 and $125/day
Random other costs like setup/teardown, hotel, groom stall split, meds, etc

My fuzzy math is ballparking that at a very minimum of around $1750 using the lowest fees, no extra classes, and braiding every other day. This in addition to what it costs to purchase and then keep a horse boarded and in some kind of program. Let's call a spade just that- it's expensive, even when you do it on the cheap, and out of reach of the large majority of people.

I agree that it is expensive, but this does not change the fact that it can be 1/3 to 1/5 as expensive if, as I said in my post, people do their own work etc and so on.

The SHOW still costs around $400 for one division, add about $200 for each additional division.

If somebody wants to make it cost $2,500 by buying grooming everyday and buying braiding etc etc etc etc obviously that is a-ok but that does not mean you are lucky to get away with a $2,500 bill. That means you bought two grand worth of services.

Which is exactly why I bought my own truck and horse trailer (for a total cost of less than $6,000, btw, so it is not like that breaks the bank if it pays for itself in 3 horse shows), keep my horses boarded separately from my trainers, trailer in, and do my own work. I am not "lucky" to get away with spending $300 to do a horse at Devon, I just did my own work.

Yes, many people choose to pay for every service from trailering to day care to schooling except for actually riding their horse in their class. That's fine, but it doesn't warrant a lecture to me about "how exactly TX shows work."

The shows work just fine.

Some people, but not all, choose to add to the bill by additionally paying for thousands of dollars worth of services.

That's fine for them, but really not mandatory, and you definitely don't "have" to do it in order to go in the ring at a nice show.

KC and the Sunshine Band
Nov. 9, 2010, 07:46 AM
meatandpotatos

i don't know what A shows ur attending but a stall is always at least 200 dollars, office fees 50, night watch 10, usef, ushja, drug fees another 60, so ur already up to at least 320 dollars just to walk on the grounds.

u live in lala land.

should I scan an actual AA show entry for you? so you can see? clearly you never go to big shows.

meupatdoes
Nov. 9, 2010, 07:50 AM
meatandpotatos

i don't know what A shows ur attending but a stall is always at least 200 dollars, office fees 50, night watch 10, usef, ushja, drug fees another 60, so ur already up to at least 320 dollars just to walk on the ground.

u live in lala land.

Right.

Add $135 or whatever it was to do the pre-green division, which is what I was pricing, and you get ... drum roll please...

...$455.

Apparently I am in la la land for not thinking this mandatorily adds up to $2,500.

Madeline
Nov. 9, 2010, 07:51 AM
And even if you do all the work yourself, ship yourself to your local AA venue for a couple of classes, pay the $400, it still comes down to $200/class, or about $100/minute.

If you take the higher figure and ride in two divisions, you're looking at paying for about a half hour worth of fun at about that same hourly rate. And that's without including your lodging, food, and the board you're already paying at home. Any way you look at it, playing in the big leagues is going to cost you...

lauriep
Nov. 9, 2010, 08:05 AM
You had my sympathies until you wrote about the "heifers" on this board. So if you don't want to be disrespected, why disrespect? Too bad, I stopped reading there.



Bingo. While your points are well-taken, they are not well made when you stoop to the very anger you describe. No need to be antagonistic on your first post ever. For that reason, I do NOT think it is the greatest first post ever.

Also, although there are MANY who snark about things just because they can, there are also a few of us who DO long for the days when the A/AA level meant a certain level of riding. Doesn't mean we don't realize that those days are gone and life and shows have morphed into what today's needs are. And those few of us have as legitimate an opinion as you do.

So, have a wonderful time showing at whatever level/show you choose. Good on ya. You will have lots of company and fun!

tidy rabbit
Nov. 9, 2010, 08:09 AM
should I scan an actual AA show entry for you? so you can see? clearly you never go to big shows.


Gee whiz KC, live under a rock? "scan" lol.

Here's show entry from a AA show in TX, 267.00 will get you on the grounds...

http://pinoak.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/J-Online.pdf

HiddenAcres
Nov. 9, 2010, 08:33 AM
It can be done. Pin Oak is a Heritage show. It is the equivalent of Upperville, although the scenery isn't as pretty. Learn to do your own braiding and other chores and don't buy into the Trainer as God myth. Some people have more time than money, some more money than time. That's where the difference plays out. Old School here - put the 2"6' classes back at the schooling shows, which in Texas are very busy. Cen Tex in the Austin area and 3 (!) schooling show Associations in Houston - you can be very busy with or without spending obscene amounts of money, regardless of your skill level.

Linny
Nov. 9, 2010, 08:54 AM
No need to be condescending.

It's both distracting and dangerous for a couple little ones getting their weekend up-down lesson to be plunking around the jumper warm up while rated classes are running.

I attended a rated show a little while back when poles-on-the-ground was offered as a division.

I pulled my horse out of a fence to avoid jumping and landing on a pony with a child on it. Twice. I witnessed another pony in the lesson kick a horse warming up for the same class I was in. The "trainer" stood by idly while this happened. When the first child on a pony wandered in front of my jump as we were leaving the ground I made a hard turn and wiped out the standard with my knee to avoid them. I ended up having to scratch my class.

These kids and their "trainer" were hours wrong for their poles on the ground or crossrail division.

Therefore, I don't believe that the A show is something that should be designed as open to all with a horse. The idea of a section for everyone serves no one well, or even safely sometimes.

That sounds like poor show management. Kids on ponies shouldn't be jogging around in the jumper warmup area. I have seen this happen and have asked my trainers to have their trainer remove them from harms way. I have also brought it up to show management when I have see it. I don't care if poles on the ground classes are held, I just don't want to be schooling in the jumper warmup with them. It's not safe for any of us.

As for the price of showing, if you are an ammy w/o means to ship your own and the show is far enough away that you cannot go and do your own maintainence, it's expensive. I live about an hour from HITS and a bit further from VT/Manchester. If my barn goes to these shows, they leave on Tue for the Wed-Sun week. Unless I take Wed-Fri off from work, I have to pay for daycare each day. I have to pay someone to ride him (unless one of my barnmates is there and willing to hop on him for fun, it's going to be a pro ride fee) and if I want him to have seen the ring before I get there for the "hole in the ground hunters" I have to pay entries for said friend or said pro. If my division is worthy, I pay to braid.
If I take the time off from work, and do my own care all week I save some fees but have hotel and food costs to make it up. Plus, my board at home is not pro-rated. I don't get a refund for the time spent on the road.
The idea that most ammys can make a go at showing on the cheap doesn't add up. Unless I invest a bunch of cash in truck and trailer (plus added insurance) and pay ship in fees I like most and required to pay for the full week of care. If the show is closer (say Saratoga-35 minutes away) I might be able to get there are ride daily but getting there to feed 2x a day and muck a stall in addtion to riding and continuing all the responsibilities of my "real life" is unlikely for me and probably most of us with children, SO's pets etc.

Trixie
Nov. 9, 2010, 09:42 AM
We did Upperville for a mere couple hundred dollars, plus the cost of champagne. Just because someone CHOOSES to get a stall and stay for a week, pay for a groom, pay a braider, etc - doesn't mean that it can't be done for less. We did Warrenton for a little less money, it was C-rated.

You know, of all the years I've been showing around here, I've never seen anyone be looked down on for doing 2'6". I have seen some minor irritation that there are multiple 2'6" divisions running in a coveted weekend spot, while the amateurs who work are scrambling to take time off to show on a Thursday.

I do wish more folks would fill the higher divisions at local shows, which is neither here nor there. I hate waiting around all day until 9 p.m. only to find out our division hasn't filled, but I can't afford to play regularly in the "A" show sandbox.

danceronice
Nov. 9, 2010, 09:50 AM
It can be done. Pin Oak is a Heritage show. It is the equivalent of Upperville, although the scenery isn't as pretty. Learn to do your own braiding and other chores and don't buy into the Trainer as God myth. Some people have more time than money, some more money than time. That's where the difference plays out. Old School here - put the 2"6' classes back at the schooling shows, which in Texas are very busy. Cen Tex in the Austin area and 3 (!) schooling show Associations in Houston - you can be very busy with or without spending obscene amounts of money, regardless of your skill level.

Seriously. Half of those "necessary" expenses wanderlust mentions are not mandatory at all. You CHOSE to spend on them. Learn to do for yourself and you won't HAVE to spend money on the braider, groom, etc. If your barn requires it, that's an expense you choose to incur by boarding there and showing with them. It's not actually necessary as far as the show is concerned.

And really, the prices don't look at all bad to me. I'm doing Ohio Star Ball next week--I can't afford to do as many styles as I want, so I'm only doing Latin. $35 entry fee per dance (I'm doing two levels so $350), plus another hundred for $10/dance for my pro (up to $450), plus his day rate (higher than usual because of which comp it is, so $235 + $450 = $685.) There'll be whatever I end up paying for the hotel, gas money, and whatever I might spend on food--it'll probably end up being around $900 for what amounts to MAYBE ten minutes of dancing, if I'm lucky. Now, I COULD spend another $80 on having my hair done, $20 for a spray tan instead of doing it myself, $20 for a manicure, I could do 20 more dances in my two other styles, I could pay another $50 for makeup, maybe that $110 massage, all of which WOULD be nice, but would run up the cost a lot. So I learned to do my own hair, I learned to do my own makeup, I make do with ProTan instead of a salon, I taught myself to do my own nails, and since I cannot afford it, I'm not doing 30 rounds, only 10. Would it help? Yes. Would it be nicer than doing my own? Yes. Can I live without it? Yep. Do I know plenty of people who WILL cough up $3000+ to do it all that way? Yep. But we're both at the same competition in the same events.

Haalter
Nov. 9, 2010, 09:57 AM
As for the "it pulls divisions away from the schooling shows argument", that is perfectly fine with me... because even if I were on a dead-broke saint, there is nothing I find more terrifying than the warmup rings at schooling shows. At least at the big rated shows, the majority of riders are there with trainers, the warmups aren't scary even when crowded, and the yay-hoo factor is pretty severely limited. You know the lines will be correctly set, the fences will be safely constructed, and you likely won't be run into by a some terrified kid poorly mounted on some rank runaway.

Seriously, you couldn't pay me to take a young horse to a one day schooling show. Good God, what kind of schooling show is this?! I guess I am very lucky to have lived in places where the schooling shows are predominantly populated by the students of competent trainers and organized by people who know how to construct a course! You can't paint all schooling shows with the same brush...Plenty of them offer many of the features of a rated show. But what I really miss is the abundance of one-day and two-day "B" and "C" rated shows, where you knew you would get a decent judge, get some points, and get out of there for a reasonable price without worrying about missing days of school/work.

It's been said, but not everyone has the ability to "trailer in" to an A-show for the day without a trainer. There are ways to make it less expensive, yes, but here's the budget I just came up with trying to get a kid to an A show in our zone on the cheap: $500 stall and classes (weekend only), $350 gas money for trailering (NOT marked up, this is actual gas cost with 1 horse on the trailer), $150 for lodging (2 nights). That's $1,000 for the weekend without paying for training, grooming, or braiding. This is the closest A-show to where I live before next summer. Not cheap by any means.

Thoroughbred1201
Nov. 9, 2010, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE=Haalter;5211369] But what I really miss is the abundance of one-day and two-day "B" and "C" rated shows, where you knew you would get a decent judge, get some points, and get out of there for a reasonable price without worrying about missing days of school/work.QUOTE]

Amen to that! We have lost our B circuit which I really miss. That's what I think the loss is. We now have one group of shows - A. And it's really too bad.

tidy rabbit
Nov. 9, 2010, 10:13 AM
$350 gas money for trailering (NOT marked up, this is actual gas cost with 1 horse on the trailer), .


DAMN! that must have been one long haul for one weekend.

eclipse
Nov. 9, 2010, 10:15 AM
[quote=Haalter;5211369] But what I really miss is the abundance of one-day and two-day "B" and "C" rated shows, where you knew you would get a decent judge, get some points, and get out of there for a reasonable price without worrying about missing days of school/work.QUOTE]

Amen to that! We have lost our B circuit which I really miss. That's what I think the loss is. We now have one group of shows - A. And it's really too bad.

Yep, and I'll 3rd that AMEN!! We've lost ALL of our outdoor B circuit shows and now in Calgary, have 2 places to show...sigh......and both are multi day shows where you HAVE to take time off work in order to show (divisions are split over 4 days, with 1 class per day!!) and have to stable at!! Prize money is non-existant at the lower levels, but guess which are the classes with the higest entries? And guess which divisions get the crappiest footing? Yet, we all still go because now there is NO WHERE left to show.......:no:

lisa
Nov. 9, 2010, 10:41 AM
SmileItLooksGoodOnYou, I don't know where you're going to show now because the USEF/USHJA, in their effort to encourage more people to show rated, has introduced "Opportunity Classes", which are targeted toward beginners and must be held at fence heights no greater than 2'6".

Maybe this particular thread isn't the right one to discuss these classes, but one of the largest show managers in Zone 4 has made the Pre-Adults/Pre-Childrens Opportunity Classes.

This means that if you have ever shown in a C- or A-rated division, you cannot show in the Pre-Adults/Pre-Childrens at these particular shows.

So those of you like me with a green horse who want to show on the weekend will need to find other shows to attend.

meupatdoes
Nov. 9, 2010, 11:24 AM
That sounds like poor show management. Kids on ponies shouldn't be jogging around in the jumper warmup area. I have seen this happen and have asked my trainers to have their trainer remove them from harms way. I have also brought it up to show management when I have see it. I don't care if poles on the ground classes are held, I just don't want to be schooling in the jumper warmup with them. It's not safe for any of us.

As for the price of showing, if you are an ammy w/o means to ship your own and the show is far enough away that you cannot go and do your own maintainence, it's expensive. I live about an hour from HITS and a bit further from VT/Manchester. If my barn goes to these shows, they leave on Tue for the Wed-Sun week. Unless I take Wed-Fri off from work, I have to pay for daycare each day. I have to pay someone to ride him (unless one of my barnmates is there and willing to hop on him for fun, it's going to be a pro ride fee) and if I want him to have seen the ring before I get there for the "hole in the ground hunters" I have to pay entries for said friend or said pro. If my division is worthy, I pay to braid.
If I take the time off from work, and do my own care all week I save some fees but have hotel and food costs to make it up. Plus, my board at home is not pro-rated. I don't get a refund for the time spent on the road.
The idea that most ammys can make a go at showing on the cheap doesn't add up. Unless I invest a bunch of cash in truck and trailer (plus added insurance) and pay ship in fees I like most and required to pay for the full week of care. If the show is closer (say Saratoga-35 minutes away) I might be able to get there are ride daily but getting there to feed 2x a day and muck a stall in addtion to riding and continuing all the responsibilities of my "real life" is unlikely for me and probably most of us with children, SO's pets etc.

Well, maybe most ammy's aren't able to show on the absolute bare bones budget but $2,000 - 3,000 per show is astronomical, in my opinion.

If it makes you feel better, I'm a lawyer in real life. I get it about taking time off. The Great South West Equestrian Center (where Pin Oak and pretty much every rated show in the area is held) is also one hour away from where I live.

The truck and trailer cost less than $6,000 and insurance for them AND the bimmer that is my driving around car is $792 per year. Sure I could have bought a new $50k truck and a $75k trailer but I spent $6k total and arrive at the horse shows like anybody else.
Again with the $2000 in "mandatory" expenses people are citing that pays for itself in about three shows.
You can also add up your saddle and bridle, tall boots, coat and helmet and probably arrive at what I paid for my truck and trailer.

I see no reason to have a horse at the show if I am at home on a day the division doesn't run. They can live in their normal pasture and get schooled in their normal ring after work and go to the show on the day their division runs. I have to drive there anyway, they may as well be in the trailer following behind instead of racking up care bills at the show.

Yeah, I get it.
I live it.

I find it odd when people describe my own life to me and then tell me it is impossible.

I am just getting back into the show ring this year and finally have the horse and life circumstances to be able to do it again. I understand that different people have different circumstances but I get a little tired of listening to how impossible and expensive and exclusive it all is ALL. THE TIME. "Yes you can" is like the most hated phrase on this board for some reason.

If I listened to all the people on COTH I would never even get near the ring.


That said, I do wish we had more (or um, any?) one day B and C rated shows around here. I sure would like to be able to show ON THE WEEKEND.

Oldenburg99
Nov. 9, 2010, 11:34 AM
As a horse show manager I would like to remind Smiley that the prize money paid out to the big classes is coming from the lower level riders. If those cross rail and rusty stirrup riders stay away, you won't have a horse show to go to. Don't think that sponsors are coughing up huge sums to allow you to jump on Sunday. The gravy train is over. I suggest that you welcome those novice riders with open arms sister.

this is AWESOME. :lol:

RugBug
Nov. 9, 2010, 11:44 AM
Good God, what kind of schooling show is this?! I guess I am very lucky to have lived in places where the schooling shows are predominantly populated by the students of competent trainers and organized by people who know how to construct a course! You can't paint all schooling shows with the same brush...Plenty of them offer many of the features of a rated show.

I do agree that they can't all be painted with the same brush, but I've experienced the not so great course design. One show I always try to help set the course b/c the distances are screwy if I don't. I've seen a 2' oxer that was 2'6" wide. Low wide oxers are great for teaching greenies things, but for beginner riders? Not-so-much.



But what I really miss is the abundance of one-day and two-day "B" and "C" rated shows, where you knew you would get a decent judge, get some points, and get out of there for a reasonable price without worrying about missing days of school/work.

I miss those shows too. There used to be an abundance of rated one day options. Now, even the C-rateds are 2 or 3 days. Staying overnight increases the costs astronomically. I don't got to these shows because even if I check out at the office for $300 or so, I paid another $300 for a hotel room....and that's without trainer fees. I am capable of showing without a trainer, but I do like to have her there in case things start going terribly wrong. I'm very independent even when she is there, but those eyes on the ground are very helpful.

Eventer55
Nov. 9, 2010, 11:46 AM
There are 500 other threads of why eventing is better and vice versa -- do we really need another one?? Really??

If you follow the "rules" of the warm up then you should be fine -- try to pass left shoulder to left shoulder, and people jumping have the right - a -way because they are getting ready to head to the ring sooner. Jumpers school in their own ring. I don't care WHAT height you ride at -- if you are good enough to jump and show then you should be good enough to steer around a warm up ring. If not, you probably should not be showing and should be spending time learning how to steer correctly. When it doubt -- pull up and let the other person steer around you.

If you have a maniac horse that is dangerous then you also shouldn't probably be horse showing - stay home, teach your horse some manners.

No matter the height you jump, if you are courteous and careful in the warm up ring then there shouldn't be a problem.

And for those of you who were belittled by a h/j trainer you obviously were not with the right trainer. I ride with a BNT and we have riders at ALL levels at our barn and we ALL respect each other and cheer each other on at horse shows.

My post was a jooooke. . . hence the laughing face. And you are right about all the above, the only thing is this doesn't happen at shows. In a perfect world it would happen and then no one would ask "why so angry dear?"

Haalter
Nov. 9, 2010, 11:54 AM
DAMN! that must have been one long haul for one weekend.Yup. We do it all the time. 700-1000 mile round trip, it's the only option if we want to get to where 3'6" classes fill :(

tidy rabbit
Nov. 9, 2010, 12:18 PM
Yup. We do it all the time. 700-1000 mile round trip, it's the only option if we want to get to where 3'6" classes fill :(

Wow, that completely sucks for you. :( Now I don't feel so bad about my location!!!

Trixie
Nov. 9, 2010, 12:27 PM
Haalter, that still reads as though the actual fees associated with the shows is only $500. Expensive by any means, but still not $2500 a pop.

Obviously, it depends where you are. We've saved money by staying in the trailer, but generally we show very close to home because we are in an area that allows for that.

At A shows, I do bring a trainer, generally one that I meet at the horse shows. If I'm lucky I will have one for a schooling show, but it doesn't usually work out that way.

Haalter
Nov. 9, 2010, 12:35 PM
Obviously, it depends where you are. This, I think, is the key. And it's one of the reasons that it's frustrating that the shows more local to me have a zillion 2'6" riders, the 3'6" never fills, and sometimes even the 3' doesn't. No, I don't have a condescending attitute toward the 2'6" folks - I have a number of them in my barn, and I am aware that these divisions fund the rest of the show. However, I can't help but remember that when 3' was the starting point, the 3' was very well populated, and more people filtered up to the 3'6". Selfishly, I recognize that this model would mean a lot less traveling for me and my clients who want to jump higher than 3'...but I don't see that ever happening.

You know, plenty of people (like me) have no issues with the 2'6" stuff. If those divisions make you and your horse happy and comfortable, good for you, get out there and enjoy it, and I hope you have a blast! I just hope that the trend of smaller jumps doesn't mean the death of the bigger divisions everywhere but Chicago and the 2 coasts.

Trixie
Nov. 9, 2010, 12:44 PM
Move to VA, and come do some local shows at 3'6" with me. I'd kill to have more people interested in jumping higher, especially in a hunter class, at a price I can afford to pay.

Ultimately, we've begun doing the jumpers, because I can do three or four local shows for the cost of an "A" show, and 3'6" jumpers do fill locally.

Interestingly, show management has been fairly accommodating. Some have made a 3'6" option, or have offered to set fences higher for me. Unfortunately, they aren't going to continue offering these options if people only want to do 2'6" and if the 3' doesn't even fill.

Clear sailing
Nov. 9, 2010, 01:52 PM
The reason the 3'6" is disappearing is because there are more 2'6" classes, and people no longer aspire to jump higher? i dont want to do the Ao's because i cannot take 2 days off from work to show, dont have a 250K hunter, have a job so I cant go south for the winter, etc. it has nothing to do with the number of 2'6" divisions. The AO's are unattainable for most people. Yes, of course you can show you're average hunter in the AO's or 1st years, but why show and loose? All.the.time. Lee Kellogg and Ellen Toon are not BOTH going to miss in the same class so i can get a ribbon.
It seem ludicrous to blame the death of the rated divisions on anything but the amount of money (and time- meaning the 2 days) it takes to show there. Most of us adults have other obligations in life other then JUST horse showing...
Besides, i grew up inthe days of nothing smaller the 3'6" unless you where on a pony, and DAMN there were some scary scary trips!

mvp
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:00 PM
We've lost ALL of our outdoor B circuit shows and now in Calgary, have 2 places to show...sigh......and both are multi day shows where you HAVE to take time off work in order to show (divisions are split over 4 days, with 1 class per day!!) and have to stable at!! Prize money is non-existant at the lower levels, but guess which are the classes with the higest entries? And guess which divisions get the crappiest footing? Yet, we all still go because now there is NO WHERE left to show.......:no:


Yup. We do it all the time. 700-1000 mile round trip, it's the only option if we want to get to where 3'6" classes fill :(

Now this is what I'm worried about.

With respect to the little sub-fight here about cost of showing.

Look, it's either time or money. I chose the meupatdoes option-- I put in the time to do my own work, drive my own (cheap) rig, bring my supplies from home, stable only for the days I show. You people with families, kids and all the rest simply choose a different strategy.

But the need to drive 700 miles to find a show with the right division screws the people paying with time or money.


Move to VA, and come do some local shows at 3'6" with me. I'd kill to have more people interested in jumping higher, especially in a hunter class, at a price I can afford to pay.

Ultimately, we've begun doing the jumpers, because I can do three or four local shows for the cost of an "A" show, and 3'6" jumpers do fill locally.

Interestingly, show management has been fairly accommodating. Some have made a 3'6" option, or have offered to set fences higher for me. Unfortunately, they aren't going to continue offering these options if people only want to do 2'6" and if the 3' doesn't even fill.

That's great! I think I need to start a new thread about what local shows offer in different parts of the country. If I have a choice, I don't want to live in the 700 miles to 3'6" section.

Haalter
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:01 PM
The reason the 3'6" is disappearing is because there are more 2'6" classes, and people no longer aspire to jump higher? I would say it is a factor in the current trends, yes. I am old enough to remember when there were no prestigious 3' divisions, or finals, and therefore a decent 3' horse was cheap. Now a nice (read winning Ch or AA Finals) 3' horse can cost into the 6 figures! The more competitive the lower divisions get, and the more they become the end-goal for riders, the more the horses who can be winners at that level become a commodity. I don't think there's any ONE reason why the 2'6" divisions are bigger than the 3'6" divisions at many A shows, but the whole progression to the current system, IMHO, has caused a decline in the 3'6" hunters, yes.

If it wasn't mind-numbingly expensive to buy a legit 3'6" horse, and if the 3'6" divisions in your area not only filled but offered decent prize money (and ran on the weekends!), I bet a lot of the 2'6" or 3' riders would want to move up. Not all of them - certainly plenty would be happy with 2'6" indefinitely - but I bet if the above were possible, there would be more riders with higher goals.

RAyers
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:12 PM
i dont want to do the Ao's [sic] because i [sic]] cannot take 2 days off from work to show...

I say right there is a HUGE reason amateurs do not and can not ride int he A/O divisions. We have jobs, families, etc. If the divisions were covered only on the weekends, there might be a better turn-out.

Moesha
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:19 PM
The reason the 3'6" is disappearing is because there are more 2'6" classes, and people no longer aspire to jump higher? i dont want to do the Ao's because i cannot take 2 days off from work to show, dont have a 250K hunter, have a job so I cant go south for the winter, etc. it has nothing to do with the number of 2'6" divisions. The AO's are unattainable for most people. Yes, of course you can show you're average hunter in the AO's or 1st years, but why show and loose? All.the.time. Lee Kellogg and Ellen Toon are not BOTH going to miss in the same class so i can get a ribbon.
It seem ludicrous to blame the death of the rated divisions on anything but the amount of money (and time- meaning the 2 days) it takes to show there. Most of us adults have other obligations in life other then JUST horse showing...
Besides, i grew up inthe days of nothing smaller the 3'6" unless you where on a pony, and DAMN there were some scary scary trips!


I agree with a lot of what you are saying, yes it is definitely the case that at certain circuits you know, almost without a doubt how the ribbons most likely will lay and it is true that the schedule prohibits many people from taking time off to show..

Unfortunately the show circuit has developed without needing the true average 9-5' people...I don't mean that there are not working people not out there showing and being successful but many take a year or so and campaign make sacrafices and then drift away or cut back drastically or come back years later ..the constant demands and expenses and lifestyle are either too expensive, or simply not worth it to many people....many local circuits have not been able to fill that gap (higher heights)...some yes, but many unfortunately not, and the amount of shows offered now is staggering, you can throw a rock in some areas and hit a few shows! in one weekend...There are some fantastic local circuits in my area and the entries are many of those who also show at the rated venues as well...

I know one wonderful local circuit( all the bells and whistles, outrside courses, regular heights in the divisions, Medal Finals only shows and other finals...derby style classes, handy classes every show, even occasional jumper classes) did drop the working Division they once held at 3'6"....because it stoped filling....that is sad...but one thing that got old when I showed at their shows was going to a show....doing the Adult hunters at 10...2 o/f and a u/s sometimes 3 o/f....then waiting until 5 or 6 or later for the Workings....and honestly it is a lot to jump that many rounds in one day....so that is another factor....one day shows are tough, you may want to do one division such as the 3 ' Adult hunters and maybe an Adult Medal class...and even if you wanted to do the 3'6" and at local shows generally that cross entry restriction is lenient....how many times does your horse need to jump...and do you want to wait around until 6 when you could show at 10 am and be at happy hour with friends at 5 or at a musuem with your family at 1....or anything other than sitting at a show with your horse in a trailer....just waiting for something at the end of the day a few trailers left and maybe only a handful of horses in your division

I just think there is so much that factors into decisions people make that finding what can make them make the decision to jump higher when they can, what incentive would work, is tough.....frankly I never got the starting at 18" and moving up all day in one or two rings thing....sure Jump Crew has a job to do and all that moving jmups up down apart closer gets old.....but maybe if divisions where mixed up a bit especially in one ring shows those divisions would fill....just thoughts....sometimes schedules all seem the same at local shows...low divisions first with a bilion people and as the heights get higher the numbers drop....obviously someone has to go first and someone last....but maybe some scheduling creativity could help those classes fill.

DMK
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:21 PM
I dunno, Reed. That "off weekend" thing is a bit regional. I've never seen a show here in Zone 4 that has adults or ammies on a weekday (except at WEF - at least once in the series your age/height division will end up on Fri/Sat). It's still taking a hit in numbers. The only ammy division I have seen grow in #'s lately is the younger adults - those took a bump from the intercollegiate ranks.

On the other topic, I've got nothing against 2'6 classes. I think at a rated show the higher the class ranking (A national versus C/zone vs. unrated) should get preference in rings and order in the schedule, but I can't recall that NOT being the case. Personally though, with all the good local shows, speaking for myself, I can't see paying rated show $$$ when you are not showing in a rated division, but how anyone else wants to spend their money is their business.

meupatdoes
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:21 PM
I say right there is a HUGE reason amateurs do not and can not ride int he A/O divisions. We have jobs, families, etc. If the divisions were covered only on the weekends, there might be a better turn-out.

This is a huge deal for me, personally.

In dressage, I can qualify for regionals (scores willing) doing two back-to-back shows Sat and Sun.

In the hunters, to qualify for anything you have to chase points on eleventy billion consecutive Wednesday/Thursday divisions.
This is true regardless of whether you are trying to do the open divisions or the 3' Adult Amateurs or the 3'6" A/Os.

At a lot of shows, the weekend classes are the 2'6" limit modified adult, the 2' local adult beginner, or whatever classes the show management chooses to offer. Here it is a rated show and they are running legions of unrated divisions on the coveted weekend spot. Yeah, that's where the money is, I don't begrudge it. But I do see it becoming increasingly a 2'6" world out there.

Clear sailing
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:50 PM
i guess we are lucky. Zone 2 has a thriving C circuit on the weekends.. And most of the rated shows i have been too seperate the little stuff from the rated divisions. At the indoor A shows, most of the time there ISNT a 2/6" option.
and yes, in zone 2, the AA's and the Childrens always fill.

MHM
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:56 PM
i guess we are lucky. Zone 2 has a thriving C circuit on the weekends.. And most of the rated shows i have been too seperate the little stuff from the rated divisions. At the indoor A shows, most of the time there ISNT a 2/6" option.
and yes, in zone 2, the AA's and the Childrens always fill.

It depends where you are- I'm also in Zone 2, and I can't think of a C show within at least 100 miles of me.

Nickelodian
Nov. 9, 2010, 02:56 PM
Another Texan from zone 7 here. I do my own hauling, my own work. I do pay a braider, b/c honestly my braids suck and though I am not one of "them" I like to look like I am. I stay at La Quinta and I do my best. I can't show when the division runs wed/thur so I limit myself to those that run thur/fri so I can squeeze in a half day at work on wed. I'm the girl sitting out in my car on a conference call in between classes. I am extremely blessed to have a husband who understands my passion and why I do it.

All of that said, I think the 2'6 divisions are just fine, and I don't begrudge anyone the desire to get out there and do it. I find horseshowing to be one of the most fun things in the world. Otherwise why would I do it?

This year my shows have been costing me an average of 550 per show including hotel and gas. Sometimes less when I win, sometimes more when I don't. But the honest truth is, if it cost any more than that I couldn't do it.

DMK
Nov. 9, 2010, 03:03 PM
I'm the girl sitting out in my car on a conference call in between classes.

Even those of us in the Sat/Sun "zones"? That's us on Fridays. ;)

Really, that damned loudspeaker can never be counted on when I need to know which class is in the ring, but it is awesomely well timed to screw up a conference call (location: my tackbox).

EMWalker
Nov. 9, 2010, 03:22 PM
Another Texan here who has to show Wed - Fri. I am very fortunate that I don't have to work and had a husband who is supportive of my horse habit. If I did have to work, I would be limited to smaller divisions that run on the weekend -- Zone 7 does not make it conducive to show above 2'6 if you are older then 18.

Lots of people have aspirations to move up divisions. I have been riding again since graduating from college in '03 -- have had 4 different horses since then and have yet to make it make to the 3'6 ring. Without going out and buying a going 3'6 horse, there are never any guarantees that the average green bean is ever going to get there. And until last year when they introduced the 3'3 AO division that left us with 3' and below.

You have to be good and accurate to ride in the 3'6 and there are just not that many working adults that have the time or money to do it.

Trixie
Nov. 9, 2010, 03:59 PM
You have to be good and accurate to ride in the 3'6 and there are just not that many working adults that have the time or money to do it.

Until not that long ago - and even at many shows now - there was nowhere for those riders who wanted to move up past 3' but didn't have means - and I don't just mean entry fees, I mean also owning a horse. I'm hoping the new performance divisions change that, if shows choose to offer them.

Ultimately, the USEF winds up stacking the deck against most working amateur riders. I've seen plenty of "A" shows where the ammies go during the week, which means it's incredibly difficult for any amateur rider to qualify for indoors on an average worker's 2-weeks of vacation (never mind actually getting the time off to show at indoors).

I can understand a 2'6" division on the weekend if there must be, but do there need to be multiple 2'6" divisions that are seemingly open to all?

Haalter
Nov. 9, 2010, 04:25 PM
I can understand a 2'6" division on the weekend if there must be, but do there need to be multiple 2'6" divisions that are seemingly open to all?:yes: :yes: :yes:

In my area, the junior age group eq classes run on Fridays, as does half the Childrens' and AA Hunters, while there are so many 2'6" classes on the weekends that it's far too much for one horse to enter them all. Why?

Calvincrowe
Nov. 9, 2010, 04:47 PM
At our A shows, there are two, 2'6" hunter divisions: Pre-Childrens and Pre-Adults. They usually run F/S/Sun, in the smaller hunter ring. Equitation is the same, but only runs on Friday. One day, we'll be at the beginning of the day, the next, at the end so we share the "hurry up and wait" with bigger fence classes.

Often, if total show entries warrant it, they open a "small hunter ring" for the 2' Short Stirrup kids, and the 2' 6" classes by themselves.

Honestly, even at schooling shows here with a jillion "trot a pole" (really, I don't think they need 4 sections of that--seriously--if you can't at least do an X, why are you at a show??), very few people come for the 3' and above classes. A couple of show series here now have the 3' and up stuff on the "pro" day of the two day schooling shows--less wait time, allows the pros to focus on the ponies/beginners the next day.

Moesha
Nov. 9, 2010, 05:15 PM
Until not that long ago - and even at many shows now - there was nowhere for those riders who wanted to move up past 3' but didn't have means - and I don't just mean entry fees, I mean also owning a horse. I'm hoping the new performance divisions change that, if shows choose to offer them.

Ultimately, the USEF winds up stacking the deck against most working amateur riders. I've seen plenty of "A" shows where the ammies go during the week, which means it's incredibly difficult for any amateur rider to qualify for indoors on an average worker's 2-weeks of vacation (never mind actually getting the time off to show at indoors).




Many shows are putting the A/O and A/A hunters on weekends more and more, unfortunately if there are fewer rings to work with..then certain things are going to have to be moved during the week...

I'm not a fan of changing the A/O systems...the only change I would make would be to allow Leased horses that are recorded (paid for the recording) and then limit the number of horses that can be shown in the division and possibly the number of different horses show in the division over a calendar year.

I hate to say it but so many people don't put there money where there mouth is....have heard aand seen countless shows say how they listened to people wanting this division and that, added them the next year and no one shows up...if people want these things they have to support the management that provides it for them, especially local shows that don't always have as much to fall back on.

I have seen countless posts on these very boards about people would show if they offered this, and we would be there....well from knowing managers who also post here who took that advice from the local posters and added divisions....not one showed up all year...so shows are going to hold what fills,what pays and then if they can offer other things.

Nickelodian
Nov. 9, 2010, 05:23 PM
Many shows are putting the A/O and A/A hunters on weekends more and more, unfortunately if there are fewer rings to work with..then certain things are going to have to be moved during the week...

I'm not a fan of changing the A/O systems...the only change I would make would be to allow Leased horses that are recorded (paid for the recording) and then limit the number of horses that can be shown in the division and possibly the number of different horses show in the division over a calendar year.



I'm not a fan of changing the A/O structure either, except it seems to me that more and more shows are moving it to wed/thur instead of thur/fri around here. I've yet to get to show on the weekend this year period. I need my horse show managers to talk to your horse show managers! I could do many more shows in a year if even one day was run on the weekend. When I was an A/A there would be many times it was Fri/Sat and thus I got to show more. I fear that moving up to the 3'6 next year will make it even worse.

Oh well, I want to do 3'6 and therefore I WILL!!

MichiganHunter91
Nov. 9, 2010, 06:50 PM
It's okay to want to stay at your level. I have my safety net as well in jumping; used to jump 4'+ but had a nasty accident over a year ago. So now my comfort level is mostly... 2'6" for now but haven't ridden since July.

You're always guaranteed going to meet some snooty stuck up person trying to ruin someone else's fun. I would just ignore it.

I've seen people feel like they had to be pushed to the upper levels and it winds up in disaster and the person either quits jumping and switches to other disciplines or even quits riding all together. Just because of what their peers say.

Enjoy riding and time with your horse :)
Not all about competition nor the height

Trixie
Nov. 9, 2010, 08:54 PM
I do take issue w/the A/O structure, because until this year I was priced out of owning a horse and, if I were to show at A shows, I had nowhere to move my then-leased horse up, given that there's nowhere to show between 3' and the really big stuff if you don't own. This discourages riders from moving up - and I'm hardly the only one in this situation.

I've tried to patronize every local show that has offered to raise the jumps and give me a 3'6" hunter course, though :) The only one we haven't gotten to yet is Locke Meadows.

naters
Nov. 10, 2010, 09:51 AM
If I could my life all over again, I would be born thin and blonde, marry well at a young age, and have a seriously expensive horse habit, and not work.

This career thing is really getting in the way of me having a super nice hunter...

Haalter
Nov. 10, 2010, 10:06 AM
If I could my life all over again, I would be born thin and blonde, marry well at a young age, and have a seriously expensive horse habit, and not work.
Word. This busting my ass to pay the bills thing is really getting old :lol:

Doodle
Nov. 10, 2010, 10:10 AM
I event, and as I get older I have been known to say that I don't want to compete at a level in which I can't have a few cocktails before XC and still be safe and effective! :D

Signature
Nov. 10, 2010, 10:30 AM
Thanks for this post/thread! :)

I agree wholeheartedly and have a slightly different perspective on this. As breeders of hunters, we are sometimes berated by the people who seem to think if you're not shooting for producing 4' horses, you should just forget it. It's already a fairly thankless and expensive job, so this type of attitude is discouraging. Of course you want to breed extremely nice quality animals, but thinking they are all going to the Regulars and the Derbies is hardly realistic.

Our thought is that we sell riding horses as well, and we see where most of the demand is, and that the 2'6"-3' divisions are by far the most popular and busy. Hey, I am perfectly happy to do the 2'6" too!

You have to produce what the market needs in order to be responsible, respected breeders. This thread simply helps confirm our breeding goals to produce great quality, beautiful, fancy moving and great jumping warmbloods most importantly with the wonderful brains that are so needed by ammies and juniors! :)

REH
Nov. 10, 2010, 10:34 AM
Many shows are putting the A/O and A/A hunters on weekends more and more, unfortunately if there are fewer rings to work with..then certain things are going to have to be moved during the week...



Disagree, and I'm in your zone. In my experience, each year I find it harder and harder to show on the weekends--it's getting harder, not easier. I can't think of one show in our zone that took the AO's off the weekdays and moved it to the weekends and the *one* show that I know of that got added to our calendar in the last few years (Chunky Monkey's ODHS) has the AO's on the weekdays. To give you an idea, just off the top of my head the following shows all do the AO's at least one day during the week: Lexington Premier and Encore, Deep Run, Virginia Intermont, Keswick, Middleburg Classic, Loudoun, Maryland Horse and Pony, Cap Chall, December Hunter Classic....pretty much the only place I show in zone that doesn't require me to take time off of work to compete in my division is Culpeper, oops, Lexington National too. So, I go to Culpeper even though I'm one of the people who complains about the facility. Tom knows how to make money, no one disagrees with that. And he always puts the AA's and the AO's on the weekends ;)

I skipped Loudoun, Middleburg Classic, Deep Run and Cap Chall and many others because I didn't have enough vacation/ability to responsibly leave my work and not jeopardize my career to make it to them. I promise you, I like to horse show and would have gone had the divisions been on the weekend.

chunky munky
Nov. 10, 2010, 11:07 AM
Perhaps you missed my earlier post regarding the USEF rule regarding the requirement to run all AA shows for 5 days with AA divisions running on 4 out of 5 days. With the necessity of having the juniors and ponies go on weekends during most of the year, most two ring shows will never be able to put you on the weekend. And the equipment in only one ring is appropriate for 3'6" and higher, so really there is only one ring you can run in.Tom can put you on the weekend because he has seven rings. The product he produces for you is very different from all the other shows you mentioned. Old Dominion, Middleburg, Loudon, Upperville, etc all operate with just two rings. These are homey old timey shows, a fact that most people feel makes our zone very special. I work for Tom frequently and highly respect what he does, but you are comparing apples and oranges.
The other problem that that the 3'6" numbers are dwindling for various reasons, one being the new 3'3" AO division. This doesn't give the 3'6" a very loud lobby voice either.
I feel your pain and I am sure all of us would love to accomodate you, but it can be close to impossible in many situations.

REH
Nov. 10, 2010, 11:26 AM
Chunky, you and I have discussed this topic together--I'm not faulting you for doing it--I understand your reasoning and the reasoning of others. The primary purpose of my post was to disagree with the point Moesha was making that more and more ammies stuff was going on the weekend. If anything, I think the opposite is happening, and your horse show is a good example to support my point. I'm not questioning anyone's reasoning. I'm pointing out that (1) I am a working professional who shows in the AO's; who (2) does actually take time off work to show and not just moan about the problem without actually demonstrating that I would go out and show more if more opportunities were available; who (3) doesn't have enough time off of work to go all of the places that I would actually show and not just talk about showing were the ammies on the weekend; and (4) see this issue getting worse, not better. I don't have solutions. I don't know the USEF rules on what needs to run when. I don't have a lot to add to this discussion other than the points I've made above.

I will add, however, that I also have horses that show ior could show in pro divisions and if I can't go to the show to compete myself, I generally don't send them to do the pro divisions, so it's not just about whether my losing-money-division has any weight, but the other non-AO division revenue coming in that I bring when I bring my amateur horse.

chunky munky
Nov. 10, 2010, 11:52 AM
I think if you took a look at many shows with 4 or more rings you may find most of them put the AO's on the weekend. Unfortunately for you and those in your situation we don't have many of those in zone 3.

HJ
Nov. 10, 2010, 12:02 PM
twosix, you rock! I think it's important that everyone, no matter their level, feel like they have a place to compete. That's what makes each discipline grow and that's what we all want. I certainly don't want to be a winner with no competition. I view it as my duty to try to make my sport as welcoming as I possibly can because I love what I do and I want to keep having shows to show at!

Moesha
Nov. 10, 2010, 12:13 PM
I think if you took a look at many shows with 4 or more rings you may find most of them put the AO's on the weekend. Unfortunately for you and those in your situation we don't have many of those in zone 3.

Exactly, and REH I do see that my comment was not true in the cases you cited, are many in Zone 3, but honestly what can shows without the rings do?

If everything is jam packed on a weekend then that becomes a nightmare and changes the structure of the whole show...

I don't know what the answer is...because many of the people who work and have to struggle to show at certain divisions at A shows because of going on weekends, don't go to B shows or Unrated shows that offer something similar in height or division...so those shows fold or stop offering them...

Like I said a person I know took advice from many, many, many people including multitudes of local riders in her area from these and other BB's and not one of them showed up for the divisions she added over 3' at her shows...so you know things happen but really a whole show season not one?? Peopoe have to put their money where their mouth is to support the backers of shows that can be options and also have to be willing to look at options, people can't always have their cake and eat it to...The shows are business, they have to be and many REH commented are are so so beautifully run and put together, but they cannot accomodate every whim or every need...they simply can't...I have seen shows try then get TRASHED on these boards because of the results...

I'm just rambling because I am not sure what the solutions , because the A/O rider at the rated shows may not be able to schedule it better but most likely skips the local shows with beautiful grounds, weekend classes etc and 3'6" divisions because it is not rated...

Moesha
Nov. 10, 2010, 12:23 PM
I do take issue w/the A/O structure, because until this year I was priced out of owning a horse and, if I were to show at A shows, I had nowhere to move my then-leased horse up, given that there's nowhere to show between 3' and the really big stuff if you don't own. This discourages riders from moving up - and I'm hardly the only one in this situation.

I've tried to patronize every local show that has offered to raise the jumps and give me a 3'6" hunter course, though :) The only one we haven't gotten to yet is Locke Meadows.

Which I why I think the structure should stay the same but allow recorded leases, since "Recorded Lease" means you are considerd the owner on entries, results, etc...allow those situations, maybe make it strict like only one per rider, per year....but there are already loopholes that people go through, so to me opening it up is a bad sitation....


ps I do understand the frustration..but honestly there are loopholes as it is, but the idea of the A/O division to me should be preserved as it is.

naters
Nov. 10, 2010, 12:46 PM
Word. This busting my ass to pay the bills thing is really getting old :lol:



Ditto. I think my life would be totally different if I was thin and blonde.

I mean I'm not huge, just not thin :cool:

What the hell was I thinking when I was graduating college thinking "I am an independent woman, got my own job, got my own money......"

WTF-ever. Nope, in my next life I will marry a pro-athlete or something. Maybe I could be on the "real housewives of some town"..... and just ride all day.

Oldenburg99
Nov. 10, 2010, 01:27 PM
Ditto. I think my life would be totally different if I was thin and blonde.

I mean I'm not huge, just not thin :cool:

What the hell was I thinking when I was graduating college thinking "I am an independent woman, got my own job, got my own money......"

WTF-ever. Nope, in my next life I will marry a pro-athlete or something. Maybe I could be on the "real housewives of some town"..... and just ride all day.

Me too sistah!!! we can have houses next to each other in some fancy gated community! :lol:

meupatdoes
Nov. 10, 2010, 01:32 PM
Ditto. I think my life would be totally different if I was thin and blonde.

I mean I'm not huge, just not thin :cool:

What the hell was I thinking when I was graduating college thinking "I am an independent woman, got my own job, got my own money......"

WTF-ever. Nope, in my next life I will marry a pro-athlete or something. Maybe I could be on the "real housewives of some town"..... and just ride all day.

If it makes you feel any better, I am thin and blonde and sitting at my desk at work wondering WTF happened?

relocatedTXjumpr
Nov. 10, 2010, 01:35 PM
I know for ME, on my local circuit, which is fairly large and competative, there are not ENOUGH 2'6 classes.

I know of 2 2'6 divisions, the Jr/Sr and the Opens (which is what the Pros take clients horses in). Both divisions are ALWAYS packed full...the last show I was at there were 60 trips in each of the jr/sr over fences classes. The Opens draw a bit smaller numbers, 20ish or so, but again, Pros are able to ride in it.

I find that we have a ton of 2ft stuff though. Again, this is local, not "A".

I would like something geared more towards the adults at 2'6, but I'm sure they dont fill, which is why they dont offer them.

That being said, I am tryin gout eventing and am back down to 2ft, lol.

WB Mom
Nov. 10, 2010, 01:50 PM
So, as usual, it all boils down to $ and paying the bills.
Without money, there can be no shows. They will always look to where the most money is and adapt, as they should
I for one support all divisions and heights as there is a NEED for each.

Jersey Fresh
Nov. 10, 2010, 01:52 PM
When it comes down to it, I think the major limitation for a lot of ammies is the cost of the horses need to be SAFELY competive at 3'6" is significantly greater than 3' or 2'6". I do not, nor will I ever, have six figures to spend on a horse to cart my butt around 3'6" and I ride half way decent. The shear cost of a good 3'6" horse is what caused the decline of the 3'6" hunters.

No matter how much I take the sport seriously and dedicate myself to the sport, its not going to make money grow on trees and allow me to have a competitive AO horse. And I have a damn good job with a damn good salary in a low cost of living area. I still can't make it happen short of finding some rich old fart to marry without a prenup.

I dont want to be a 2'6" rockstar the rest of my life. But while i am here, I am happy that they are competive and offer year end awards etc. Because honestly if horse shows only offered classes starting at 3'6" I would never be able to show.

REH
Nov. 10, 2010, 01:53 PM
I don't know what the answer is...because many of the people who work and have to struggle to show at certain divisions at A shows because of going on weekends, don't go to B shows or Unrated shows that offer something similar in height or division...so those shows fold or stop offering them...

.

I wish I had known a local barn was offering 3'6" classes--I might have gone to practice on one of the weekends I was sitting out showing becuse my division went during the week :lol:

I really wish I knew what the answer is, but I don't. However, to quote my favorite movie "recognize a problem and you're half way to its solution"--I'm still trying to figure out what the problem is--is it the USEF rules? the shows themselves? Something else?

Bluesy
Nov. 10, 2010, 03:26 PM
What I *feel*:

Riding isn't about the ego,
It's about the horse.

In benefiting the horse,
We benefit ourselves.

The horse doesn't care how big he can jump
He just cares that he enjoys what he does
And that he is well taken care of.

If other people bother you,
Ask yourself why.
It is hard because you have to look in a mirror.

:)

danceronice
Nov. 10, 2010, 04:02 PM
When it comes down to it, I think the major limitation for a lot of ammies is the cost of the horses need to be SAFELY competive at 3'6" is significantly greater than 3' or 2'6". I do not, nor will I ever, have six figures to spend on a horse to cart my butt around 3'6" and I ride half way decent. The shear cost of a good 3'6" horse is what caused the decline of the 3'6" hunters.

No matter how much I take the sport seriously and dedicate myself to the sport, its not going to make money grow on trees and allow me to have a competitive AO horse. And I have a damn good job with a damn good salary in a low cost of living area. I still can't make it happen short of finding some rich old fart to marry without a prenup.

I dont want to be a 2'6" rockstar the rest of my life. But while i am here, I am happy that they are competive and offer year end awards etc. Because honestly if horse shows only offered classes starting at 3'6" I would never be able to show.

This is also very true. If it generally takes tens of thousands of dollars to buy a competitive 3'6" horse, most people aren't going to do 3'6", at least not show it. (My old OTTB probably could have *jumped* 3'6", but he was a 15.2hh OTTB who wasn't especially stylish and wouldn't have been COMPETITIVE at that height, so there wouldn't have been much point in showing him at it.) And that outlay is before the upkeep. Even if you're INSANELY lucky and stumble on a horse with potential for cheap, then you have all the training and waiting costs adding up.

OTOH, a horse who can jump 2'6" reasonable well isn't nearly as pricey.

And yes, I think being able to go and compete with a reasonable chance of doing well is an important part of showing for a lot of people. If that's where their horse jumps his best, that's where they stay rather than move up and get pounded. And I appreciate the desire of the 3'6"+ club to have competition, too--I'm in an age division in dance where there aren't a lot of girls doing pro/am (the youngest and least-likely to have the money) and yeah, it's rarely fun going out and there's only three of you. But eliminate the 2'6", and unless the prices on 3'6" horses drop, it's not going to change numbers that much, it's just going to be that fewer people who come to show--not having a 2'6" division won't magically make everyone have enough money for a 3'6" horse, it'll just mean that many more people can't show.

naters
Nov. 10, 2010, 04:21 PM
Me too sistah!!! we can have houses next to each other in some fancy gated community! :lol:


Love it!

Fancy gaited "equestrian" community :winkgrin:

naters
Nov. 10, 2010, 04:22 PM
If it makes you feel any better, I am thin and blonde and sitting at my desk at work wondering WTF happened?



LOL, that actually DOES make me feel a bit better (sorry!) :lol::lol::lol:
FWIW, I am too :)

2bayboys
Nov. 10, 2010, 06:29 PM
The sheer cost of a good 3'6" horse is what caused the decline of the 3'6" hunters.



This. When a decent 3'6" horse costs as much as a house, competitive 3' horses cost more than a Mercedes, and a winning 2'6" horse costs more than a year at a very good university, why are we scratching our heads over the decline in the regular divisions?

Jaegermonster
Nov. 10, 2010, 07:00 PM
Maybe if your trainer would get people in the ring on time you wouldn't have to wait so long. Gasp.


Loved your post but especially this.
And maybe if people could function independently without their trainer shows wouldn't take so long.

Bluesy
Nov. 10, 2010, 09:54 PM
And maybe if people could function independently without their trainer shows wouldn't take so long.

So the question is -

why do we rely so heavily on our trainers?

Dinah-do
Nov. 10, 2010, 11:36 PM
Trainers are useful for sitting on a warmup fence and holding it for you. Not useful for much else IMO.

EMWalker
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:08 PM
Trainers are useful for sitting on a warmup fence and holding it for you. Not useful for much else IMO.

This is a pretty broad over generalization. I have always started with green horses and my trainers have done a wonderful job turning them in to wonderful horses. I don't have the time nor experience to do it myself so by using a trainer that makes me less of a rider?!? So if I don't have the time or experience I'm just supposed to enjoy a forever green horse or spend years and years making the horse rideable?

Was it this thread or another that had people disagreeing about changing the AOs and adding more divisions?!? The show I am currently at has FOUR 3'6 AOs (combined ages) and ELEVEN 3'3 AO's -- the BIGGEST A rated division at the whole show! Definitly a worth while division.

chunky munky
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:11 PM
If you truly think that is the case then you haven't known the right ones ;-)

danceronice
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:24 PM
I think the point was not why do you need trainers EVER, but why do they HAVE to be standing by the rail or you just can't ride your round and we have to hold up traffic until they can get ringside? I mean, they're not allowed to coach once you're showing, right? And if they HAVE to see it, there's this invention called "video recording" that's quite popular nowdays. It's one thing to like having they watch, another to be, for some reason, totally dependant on it or afraid to go if they aren't there because for some reason they'll be angry.

justdandy
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:40 PM
I think the point was not why do you need trainers EVER, but why do they HAVE to be standing by the rail or you just can't ride your round and we have to hold up traffic until they can get ringside? I mean, they're not allowed to coach once you're showing, right? And if they HAVE to see it, there's this invention called "video recording" that's quite popular nowdays. It's one thing to like having they watch, another to be, for some reason, totally dependant on it or afraid to go if they aren't there because for some reason they'll be angry.

The trainers don't need to be at the ring just to watch. They're there to help you school before going into the ring. Who do you think sets the jumps? I don't know about you, but I prefer starting out over a couple of lower fences to warm up then jump something at height before going in the ring.

EMWalker
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:48 PM
I think some people ARE dependant on their trainers but you know what? Who cares? We are a big show barn and we have multiple riders who are hard working adults/timid riders who have bad experiences previously and feel comfortable and safe having out trainer in close proximity. Some of those riders DO NEED our trainer present and they don't need to be ridiculed for that.

As for myself, do I need them there? No! Do I prefer to have them there - yes. I am paying for it so it's nice to have sone feedback. That is why I am an AMATEUR and don't do this for a living. I certainly don't need them there for a hack and if they need to get someone else in the ring, have at it.

Congrats to all those wonderful riders who can do everything themselves. I have grooms, I have trainers, I have nice horses.. So shoot me!

Dinah-do
Nov. 11, 2010, 01:09 PM
No one is going to get shot - at least not over a trainer. BUT ... it is a pain to be be sitting in the rain waiting for a class to finish because the trainer is else where and a very capable rider is standing at the ring waiting for her trainer to show up. Saw same rider a few months later at a local event minus her hunter trainer. Her daughter set a few fences for her (which were flagged) and she managed just fine. Event trainers really cant be warming up and watching at the same time and order of go is the word.

touchstone-
Nov. 11, 2010, 01:14 PM
I do take issue w/the A/O structure, because until this year I was priced out of owning a horse and, if I were to show at A shows, I had nowhere to move my then-leased horse up, given that there's nowhere to show between 3' and the really big stuff if you don't own. This discourages riders from moving up - and I'm hardly the only one in this situation.

Have you looked into the new "performance hunter" divisions? I would imagine these will be offered at most big 'A' shows this year, and offer divisions at 3'3" and 3'6"-3'9."

danceronice
Nov. 11, 2010, 01:47 PM
No one is going to get shot - at least not over a trainer. BUT ... it is a pain to be be sitting in the rain waiting for a class to finish because the trainer is else where and a very capable rider is standing at the ring waiting for her trainer to show up. Saw same rider a few months later at a local event minus her hunter trainer. Her daughter set a few fences for her (which were flagged) and she managed just fine. Event trainers really cant be warming up and watching at the same time and order of go is the word.

Exactly. The point's not having someone to help you in the warmup, though obviously you can live without it if you HAVE to. You want a trainer standing at the gate WHILE YOU ARE SHOWING, fine--but then you should lose your spot in the go order if you won't enter the show ring until they're there. If that means you're stuck waiting until the end, too bad. There's no excuse for holding things up just because someone who can't say a word while you're going and can just as easily watch the round on video later for commentary purposes isn't on time. It's rude and inconsiderate to those who are ready and waiting.

supershorty628
Nov. 11, 2010, 01:51 PM
Congrats to all those wonderful riders who can do everything themselves. I have grooms, I have trainers, I have nice horses.. So shoot me!

If I shoot you, do I get all your nice horses? ;)

justdandy
Nov. 11, 2010, 02:18 PM
If I shoot you, do I get all your nice horses? ;)

And if I take you out, will I get hers and yours?:winkgrin::lol:

meupatdoes
Nov. 11, 2010, 02:20 PM
And if I take you out, will I get hers and yours?:winkgrin::lol:

*takes up residence on grassy knoll and waits silently*

justdandy
Nov. 11, 2010, 02:22 PM
*takes up residence on grassy knoll and waits silently*

*retreats and rethinks strategy*

naters
Nov. 11, 2010, 02:43 PM
LOL at the above few posts!!

I wish that a rich prince charming would pop into my life and allow me to quit my job, alas, I am 30 and average looking, so that probably wont happen.

*sneaks off to go buy a lottery ticket*

.

REH
Nov. 11, 2010, 03:47 PM
The trainers don't need to be at the ring just to watch. They're there to help you school before going into the ring. Who do you think sets the jumps? I don't know about you, but I prefer starting out over a couple of lower fences to warm up then jump something at height before going in the ring.

To add to this--usually we have more than one round. A trainer watching real-time has the ability to provide input and insight into what can be improved from round 1 to round 2. I can't tell you how many times a trainer has helped me "get it in gear" in between rounds, after I've made a less than stellar showing the first trip. Top football, basketball, baseball, Olympic competitors--everyone has a coach there to be a set of eyes on the ground to provide feedback at competition time.

ETA:oops, I was hoping to get the original quote JD was responding to into the post--sorry!

danceronice
Nov. 11, 2010, 05:15 PM
To add to this--usually we have more than one round. A trainer watching real-time has the ability to provide input and insight into what can be improved from round 1 to round 2. I can't tell you how many times a trainer has helped me "get it in gear" in between rounds, after I've made a less than stellar showing the first trip. Top football, basketball, baseball, Olympic competitors--everyone has a coach there to be a set of eyes on the ground to provide feedback at competition time.


All true, but the point stands it doesn't entitle you to hold up everyone else if they're not there. If they trainer's not ready and waiting to watch when it's your turn, the rule should be you go now, or you go to the back of the line. At the Olympics, if you're up next in figure skating and your coach decided to go get coffee, you STILL must be on the ice and you still only have thirty seconds from when they announce you to hit your opening position. No referee will accept "But my coach isn't here!" as an excuse. They're expected to know when they're supposed to be there and it's not the rest of the officials or competitor's problem if they're not. You go when called, or you have to withdraw.

2bayboys
Nov. 11, 2010, 05:41 PM
But at the Olympics figure skating, I'll bet the coach doesn't have ten other students competing in four different ice rinks. That's the way our shows are structured and we have to work within those parameters.

meupatdoes
Nov. 11, 2010, 05:48 PM
But at the Olympics figure skating, I'll bet the coach doesn't have ten other students competing in four different ice rinks. That's the way our shows are structured and we have to work within those parameters.

Sure, but "work within those parameters" means "suck it up if your trainer can't be there just this once" not, "feel free to hold up the whole show for your two minute trip."

CBoylen
Nov. 11, 2010, 06:08 PM
I'm not sure everyone here is getting the point of a trainer at the show ring.
Not even a professional will or should go to the ring without a trainer or groundperson. The trainer is there to make sure the horse goes in the ring jumping at its best. You can't do that as well from the tack, and you certainly can't do that without someone to set the jumps and provide input as your warmup progresses. If you're not going in the ring with your horse properly prepared, there isn't much point in showing that day. No one is waiting on their trainer because they need the moral support. They're waiting so they have a better chance of winning.

chunky munky
Nov. 11, 2010, 06:21 PM
Right said, CB. That being said, unless we are talking short stirrup, etc where we have beginner people I think shows need to eliminate any waiting for trainers for a hack.

RugBug
Nov. 11, 2010, 06:33 PM
Right said, CB. That being said, unless we are talking short stirrup, etc where we have beginner people I think shows need to eliminate any waiting for trainers for a hack.

Agree with CB and agree with this.

It might not matter for me to have a trainer at the ring, but I'm usually just trying to get eight fairly consistent spots and hoping to keep the horse between me and the ground. I flat my horse, get him supple, pop over a few warm up jumps, figure out if he's slow/fast/perfect that day and go. BUT, I'm not doing this at any type of high level. Even so, I tailor my warm-up to my horse.

For the better riders/horses, the warm-up is sooo important and very much a specific thing for that day. Maybe the horse is twisting just a bit so groundsperson sets up a high narrow crossrail. Maybe they are cutting down early that day, so you get yourself a wide oxer. ETC.

It's often hard to feel the subleties from their back, thus groundsperson/trainer is a necessity.

Jaegermonster
Nov. 11, 2010, 06:51 PM
So the question is -

why do we rely so heavily on our trainers?

"We" don't.
As for we in general, I have no idea.
I think for many trainers, time management is a problem.Either bring assistants to help you or don't bring so many horses. Or don't foster your clients being so dependent on you that they need you to tell them when to get ready, where to be and when to be there and get to the ring without you to be schooled.

Atom Heart Mother
Nov. 11, 2010, 09:41 PM
Trainers are useful for sitting on a warmup fence and holding it for you. Not useful for much else IMO.

Really? Dang, girl, you must not have the right trainer. I know for sure my trainer does much more than that, in fact, he's been nothing but helpful and encouraging the whole time I have ridden with him, and by the way, he's a top grand prix rider.

And by the way, I am extremely fat, over fifty and have a not particularly wonderfully fancy horse. And you know what? I actually manage to go out there, win and have a super time and not really give a rat's butt about anything else, particularly what other people are doing, thinking or feeling.

If you want to show at the A shows, do it. Stop making excuses. If you don't want to show at the A shows, stop dissing people who do. It isn't your call.

REH
Nov. 11, 2010, 09:43 PM
Apologies-someone kindly looked up my show record and informed me that I made an error-I did go to Loudoun this year-I skipped it the year prior....I swap around the one I skip. Sincerest apologies to whomever actually noticed or cares :D

Linny
Nov. 11, 2010, 10:25 PM
But at the Olympics figure skating, I'll bet the coach doesn't have ten other students competing in four different ice rinks. That's the way our shows are structured and we have to work within those parameters.

This neatly returns us to the start of this thread. I think that most of the riders at 3'+ have more of a beef with delays caused by trainers being stretched thin at shows. There was a time (when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and Linny went to decent shows) that if you were jumping 2'6 you wouldn't be at the same show as the 3'+ riders. When I started, 3'6 was it, unless you did one of the few local divisions. Those who did 2'6 (as Linny does now in her dotage) went to local or schooling shows which were interspersed betwen the big events. Now the big events have taken over showing (see the $500k Classic thread) and locals in all but certain areas are pretty scarey and unpleasant.
Trainers thus bring along a barn load of 2' and 2'3 and 2'6 riders to show at the same show as the AA, Childrens and A/O and Jr. riders, because after 3 weeks of HITS or Manchester (or some such) they really don't want to go to Sunshine Farm for their little show next Sunday. They want the day off, and I don't blame them.

Treistan
Nov. 12, 2010, 12:54 AM
Amen. Amen. Amen. I used to be the brave kid, galloping at 3'3 and 3'6 fences. Now I have a certain amount of sick time and insurance paperwork to consider. LOL If I never rise about 2'6 again, so be it. I'll be all smiles!

I am also a timid rider, wrestling with aging muscle and new (often imagined) perils of security. I am praying to make my debut at 2'3 next weekend, after a year in Pleasure with my very green, somewhat unforgiving OTTB. It's been 15 years since I rode seriously; so it's been a journey. I am sad that the 'rated' shows do not offer a 'protected' division for the older horsey set (free of fearless kids or professionals). There needs to be a warm, welcoming summons to riders who are returning to the arena after a long hiatus or those older riders coming fresh into the sport.

There's a definite confidence boost in getting around a course of crossrails at the canter, which sets up good feelings for bigger and better things (ie 2'3!) Keep a finger crossed for me, friends.

mvp
Nov. 12, 2010, 08:41 AM
I think some people ARE dependant on their trainers but you know what? Who cares? We are a big show barn and we have multiple riders who are hard working adults/timid riders who have bad experiences previously and feel comfortable and safe having out trainer in close proximity. Some of those riders DO NEED our trainer present and they don't need to be ridiculed for that.

As for myself, do I need them there? No! Do I prefer to have them there - yes. I am paying for it so it's nice to have sone feedback. That is why I am an AMATEUR and don't do this for a living. I certainly don't need them there for a hack and if they need to get someone else in the ring, have at it.

Congrats to all those wonderful riders who can do everything themselves. I have grooms, I have trainers, I have nice horses.. So shoot me!

Oh my.

Look, no one cares or even knows whether anyone got to the ring and inside it for their 2 minutes in the sun by themselves or with an entourage. Well, know one knows or cares until you make everyone else wait for your 2 minutes.

If a trainer and her "system" is worth her salt, she doesn't hold up rings.

I don't know whether ring holds are the product of poor planning on show managers' part, trainers who stretched thin by client who need and want their help, or trainers who promise to deliver more personal attention than one person can in day.

But the ring hold phenomenon in HunterWorld is a PITA that doesn't seem to happen elsewhere. It does seem to come from a sense of entitlement. And to be clear, that may originate in busy trainers! I have seen some pros rip clients a new one for not waiting until they arrived ringside. That contributes to the client's dependency and perhaps the sense that if their pro, whom they paid for complete help, will be angry anyway, then they are justified in passing the buck to other competitors and a waiting judge.

In some ways, it would be more fun if clients felt the training ended when the trainer said "You're ready" in the schooling ring.

2bayboys
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:09 AM
With all due respect, I need to echo the thoughts of REH here, in that I want my trainer preparing me in the warmup and then I want my trainer watching my trips in the ring, because trainer can tell me how to improve from trip 1 to trip 2 to trip 3, etc, as in "more pace coming out of the corner to the judge's line" or "remember that the single oxer is slightly downhill so don't let your eye get ahead of you there", all of which is very useful information AND information for which I am paying said trainer to provide.

Sometimes trainer has other students also going in another ring at the same time, and that really sucks, but we try to coordinate with the gate guy and make it as painless as possible. Never have I held up a hack waiting for the trainer.

Happyhooves
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:13 AM
Horse shows would definitely be more fun (and maybe have more entries?) if it weren't for the delays caused by trainers stretched too thin and running from ring to ring. Not sure what the cure is, considering everything. As a horse show mom, I can't help wanting the trainer ringside for my kid's classes. The kids' young. I want experienced eyes out there. And yet it's frustrating to wait and wait and wait, even at a small show with not that many entries. One show recently, one class in particular, a medal qualifier, went almost four hours later than projected, and after waiting that long, my kid and horse were not on their game, didn't do well and missed qualifying for the finals by a few points (c'est la guerre, but disappointing to a 12 y.o.). And as a rider myself, I returned to the showring after some years off, in the rusty stirrup division, and so often my classes were combined with the kids. It was a no win. I felt bad if I placed over little kids and felt bad if I lost to kids. Some of my friends and I stopped showing because of this. I would show again if I didn't have to be in classes with pros or kids. Maybe incidentally, it should be called Sterling Stirrup and feel special, maybe with little cheap plates or loving cups, not dollar store frames or stuffed toys. After waiting my whole life, I finally have a beautiful horse, and I don't want to feel rusty and old while taking him out for a spin. LOL

Quinn
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:20 AM
Treistan, enjoy your show. :)

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

ExJumper
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:26 AM
I think the point was not why do you need trainers EVER, but why do they HAVE to be standing by the rail or you just can't ride your round and we have to hold up traffic until they can get ringside? I mean, they're not allowed to coach once you're showing, right? And if they HAVE to see it, there's this invention called "video recording" that's quite popular nowdays. It's one thing to like having they watch, another to be, for some reason, totally dependant on it or afraid to go if they aren't there because for some reason they'll be angry.

Sure they are. If they're yelling at you across the ring, well -- that's probably going to lose you some points, if the judge can hear. But most trainers will say something to you as you canter past the ingate. "Perfect -- keep just that pace." "More leg through the corner!" "EASY on the line back home."

And they certainly discuss things between your rounds. And how can they tell you want to work on, or what they think went wrong if they didn't see it?

I agree that shows shouldn't be held for trainers to watch hack classes.

EMWalker
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:29 AM
Oh my.

In some ways, it would be more fun if clients felt the training ended when the trainer said "You're ready" in the schooling ring.

Oh my what?!? And I certainly don't feel "entitled" just because I ride hunters.

And there are a few of our riders who DON'T get to show often because they are working adults and when they DO show it would be scary to warm them up then send them off by themselves. I'm sorry. This isn't pony club. We pay too much darn money. Hearing a trainers comments between rounds helps a lot for a lot of riders.

The hardest thing for ring management is the fact that a trainer with lots of rides also has clients showing in the Ammy/adult stuff on the same day. They are warming up/showing/jogging their rides then warming us all up too. Regardless if they are watching at the ring!

Oh and "just bring less horses?" this is a tough business already in a struggling economy so my trainers are sure as heck going to bring as many paying clients as they can.

My barn is professional and prepared and on time to the ring. If other barns aren't that is unprofessional and they need better time management skills. But just because we have trainers don't lump all of us in together.

Moesha
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:37 AM
I once got attacked on the BB for saying people should lighten up and not always find something to complain about at shows, after all we are so so fortunate to have horses and ride much less show and the majority of the world worries about putting food on their tables or having a roof over their head...maybe my analogy is a bit much, but if you are at a show, having to wait or having a delay can be irritating no question, but you are at a show, if you have somewhere else to be then don't show that day...I don't mean to sound hateful, but I am not sure the 2'6" divisions are causing such hold ups....the shows I am familar with have them in generally at the end of the day or in a ring that has similar divisions all day, I'll use a few Zone 3 examples....Culpeper, Lexington, Duke, Upperville certainly the Grand Prix ring, main hunter and jumper rings or colesium, whatever the case are not being held up by 2'6" classes, in fact they are not holding anything up at all...but things happen and trainers have conflicts...but generally speaking they get their riders in the priority rings first..if the show makes a call that the 2'6" ring is a priority then they are cooperating with the managements wishes.

I don't want to say that people either have not had strong trainer relationships or have had bad experiences...or even have ridden in or ride in "program" structured out of a trainer's barn....but I feel too many of the comments are judgemental and too simplistic and therefore leads me to question the experiences of the posters...and I do not mean that in a negative questioning either...

As for trainer's sitting on jumps? That is certainly not my experience, the trainers I have had and the one's my friend's have work so hard it is admirable, they care about their clients, their horses, their goals, they are always proactive and look for the long term goals of their riders...perfect...of course not, who is, of course trainer's make mistakes, maybe that horse was a wrong fit, maybe we moved up to fast, etc etc...but it is a sport, hardwork, and for those who really care jumping 2'6" and tyring each time to be better and better and taking regular lessons and having a happy healthy horse is certainly a big deal and much more so than the 4' rider who slams into half the jumps is cruel to their horse..but gets in and out of the ring fast and doen't use a trainer...

Dinah-do
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:51 AM
I think MVP made a good post. And CB I agree with your post as far as pros riding in rated divisions. However, I have friends well into their 60's that still show and now use their trainer to hold their hand. Their horses are mostly sainted but often say enough when their elderly rider is just not riding well any more. The horse stops and the rider is replaced by a pro for a few low classes. Classes are held up because a rider as well as /or a trainer is part of the picture. Class becomes expensive and I just fail to see the horsemanship in this picture. Same thing happens with the kids. They and their parents grow up depending on trainers for everything.The trainers sadly are too busy to help their clients really learn about horses. Horse shows have evolved into a pro rider prepping the horse for a rider. Everything gets charged for and a dependence circle starts. Just ask employers what hiring these kids is like. Of course not everyone fits this scenario but enough to give Hunterland a less than exciting atmosphere to watch. If someone wants to pay a lot of $ to show at 2' or 2'6 go for it. I honestly don't care. I am north of 60 and am grateful for the lessons given to me years ago. I honestly feel that the young pros entering the industry are going to be in for a tough time as they struggle to stand on their own after growing up being dependent on THEIR trainers for so long.

Heading for the barn as I don't have grooms to look after my lovely horses.

Moesha
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:57 AM
Again Dinah-do it is their businesss and choice, as long as the horses are well cared for and the people are learning to ride and know what is appropriate care, there are far more pressing horse welfare concerns out there.

And some of us would love to ride our horses on a weekday morning...but we are in the office 12 hours a day.

RockinHorse
Nov. 12, 2010, 09:59 AM
Well said Moesha in both posts :yes:

tidy rabbit
Nov. 12, 2010, 10:00 AM
Is it de ja vu or have I read Dinah-do (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/member.php?u=85128)'s post a million times before? Weird.

danceronice
Nov. 12, 2010, 10:18 AM
"We" don't.
As for we in general, I have no idea.
I think for many trainers, time management is a problem.Either bring assistants to help you or don't bring so many horses. Or don't foster your clients being so dependent on you that they need you to tell them when to get ready, where to be and when to be there and get to the ring without you to be schooled.

Sheesh, yes.

Your trainer cannot ride for you. They cannot be IN the SHOW RING with you. The argument is not "You should do everything TOTALLY BY YOURSELF OMG", or that you shouldn't have a trainer in the warm-up, it's that "If you need your trainer standing ringside WHILE YOU SHOW, they need to be there ON TIME, or you should either ride the round without them or go to the back of the line without complaint."

Your trainer's time-management skills or lack thereof are not every other entry's problem. Holding rings is absurd. Get there on time.

And in most sports, if you're caught coaching once the performance begins, your student's disqualified for cheating.

meupatdoes
Nov. 12, 2010, 10:43 AM
I completely agree that having a trainer present is the best way to give yourself the best shot at winning and you need a goundsperson and eyes on the ground and at a big show every last thing counts.

Yep, I get it.

However.

There is a difference between saying,
"Man, it is really important to me that my trainer be here before my round, but he's busy so I guess I will have to deal with it."

and

"Man, it is really important to me that my trainer be here before my round, but he's busy so I guess THE REST OF THE SHOW will have to deal with it."


Yeah.
I get that it's important.
It's important to me too.

But if you feel justified in holding up everybody else because it's important to you that you get the best shot of winning, and the whole show should surely understand, that is when the line starts getting crossed to acting really entitled.

ExJumper
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:12 AM
There is a difference between saying,
"Man, it is really important to me that my trainer be here before my round, but he's busy so I guess I will have to deal with it."

and

"Man, it is really important to me that my trainer be here before my round, but he's busy so I guess THE REST OF THE SHOW will have to deal with it."

But saying this is "bad" is really just spitting into the wind. Like it or not, that is how most shows work. If you are waiting for your trainer they either hold the class for a few minutes, bump you to the back of the line if there are others there to take your place, or they close the class without you.

Usually they are only willing to hold a class if your trainer has illustrated that he or she is trying to communicate with all the rings -- i.e. they know that you know that you're supposed to be there, and that you'll be there as soon as you can. That's why they often give a certain ring priority -- they are willing to hold up the other rings to keep the priority ring running on time.

Like it or not, that's just the way things are run and you can complain about it all you want but that isn't going to change it. H/J riders want their trainers ringside when they jump. Trainers want to be there, too. Horse shows accommodate this by telling trainers which ring should be given priority and allowing delays in other rings.

Until the whole paradigm shifts to something completely different, it does no good to complain about it. And no one is going to pat you on the head and give you a cookie for being willing to go into the show ring without your trainer. That may be a choice you make, but there is no reason to expect other people to make that choice.

Like it or not, this is the culture at horse shows and I don't see it changing any time soon.

RockinHorse
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:17 AM
I am not sure where some of you show. At the shows I go to - both rated and local- there are delays at the rings sometimes but not for very long and not all the time. If there is a conflict, and there are more riders left to go, they go in ahead of the person with the conflict who does drop back in the order of go.

Honestly, if the show has good gate keepers, who work together to establish ring priorities and work with people with conflicts this should not be as big an issue as it is being made out to be. (Unless of course you are talking about classes with 4 entries and one rider riding 3 of them).

dags
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:25 AM
I am not sure where some of you show. At the shows I go to - both rated and local- there are delays at the rings sometimes but not for very long and not all the time. If there is a conflict, and there are more riders left to go, they go in ahead of the person with the conflict who does drop back in the order of go.

Honestly, if the show has good gate keepers, who work together to establish ring priorities and work with people with conflicts this should not be as big an issue as it is being made out to be. (Unless of course you are talking about classes with 4 entries and one rider riding 3 of them).

Agreed, I'm not sure how this thread came to a discussion re: enforcement of the 2 minute gate rule? Which, BTW, we have, and I have seen utilized plenty. Seriously. The gate guys aren't kidding when they scream GET IN THE RING. NOW.

I also find it mildly amusing that with all the moaning and groaning about schooling and show fees anyone is surprised when said check-signer is adamant that their trainer actually watch them show.

wanderlust
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:28 AM
I am sad that the 'rated' shows do not offer a 'protected' division for the older horsey set (free of fearless kids or professionals). There needs to be a warm, welcoming summons to riders who are returning to the arena after a long hiatus or those older riders coming fresh into the sport. There are a thousand amateur divisions at most shows. You want them to add a "over 40 beginner and/or returning chicken adult amateur 2'3" division? For real? Isn't that what they call Long Stirrup? Let's try rising to the level of the competition, and Long Stirrup isn't a very high bar. I'm sorry if that offends you, but it just isn't.

Forgive me for being harsh, but rated shows are supposed to be the top level of competition in the country. I have no problem with the 2'6" division, for reasons I cited earlier, but if you can't find a division amongst those already available, perhaps you aren't ready to step into the ring at a big show.

danceronice
Nov. 12, 2010, 11:52 AM
But saying this is "bad" is really just spitting into the wind.... Until the whole paradigm shifts to something completely different, it does no good to complain about it. And no one is going to pat you on the head and give you a cookie for being willing to go into the show ring without your trainer. That may be a choice you make, but there is no reason to expect other people to make that choice.


So, people have a choice to act like spoiled brats around whom the world revolves, and others do not have the choice to complain about it because that's just how it goes? Even when it's based on behavior that will get you DISQUALIFIED in other sports? Gotcha. (People wonder why other sports don't take hunters seriously.)


Like it or not, this is the culture at horse shows and I don't see it changing any time soon.

Well, yeah, if everyone doesn't complain and says "That's just the way it is," it's certainly never going to.

dags
Nov. 12, 2010, 12:05 PM
Okay, cake havers and eaters.

We now have 8 ring circus horse shows so we can fit in all the wonderful 2'6" classes this lovely thread champions before sundown, and it's the trainers fault they can't be in 6 rings at once? And people paying a significant amount of $$$ each day for trainer's assistance are spoiled brats?

The logistics of 30 horses, 1 head trainer, 2 assistants and 8 rings means there are probably going to be some delays while trainer runs the gamut from 2'6" - 3'6". It's not being self-centered and spoiled, it's The Way Things Are Now That Everyone Gets to Horse Show.

Also amusing in this thread, the correlation of trainer dependency and the 2'6" rider. I understand there are some knowledgeable re-riders here that have been there, done that and have decided they are happiest in the 2'6" ring. Kudos, awesome, trust me, your trainer LOVES you. But I think others are GREATLY overestimating the knowledge and experience of the average 2'6" rider. You can champion it all you want, but it is still a division filled largely by beginners. You want to see delays at the horse show? LOL, send that group out on their own with no assistance.

sadlmakr
Nov. 12, 2010, 12:11 PM
Why do so many women( and women especially) have to make snide remarks about what ever other people do with their horses?
WHO CARES?
Go ride and enjoy yourself and let these "Railbirds" caw like crows. I guess it gives them a degree of self importance to run down others.
Go have fun.
There are these types in any sport you go into. Like Couch quarterbacks...

Do what you enjoy and ignore the cat calls and snipes of the "Railbirds"...
If they had advice worth anything they'd be selling it.
What ever you want to do, go for it.
If you listen to all this kind of stuff you will lose your sanity.
Show your self confidence and have a blast.
Life is too short to let this stuff affect you.
JMHO
sadlmaker

Moesha
Nov. 12, 2010, 12:12 PM
I am not sure where some of you show. At the shows I go to - both rated and local- there are delays at the rings sometimes but not for very long and not all the time. If there is a conflict, and there are more riders left to go, they go in ahead of the person with the conflict who does drop back in the order of go.

Honestly, if the show has good gate keepers, who work together to establish ring priorities and work with people with conflicts this should not be as big an issue as it is being made out to be. (Unless of course you are talking about classes with 4 entries and one rider riding 3 of them).


Great Post! :)

I'm not sure either, especially since people are from all over and even in the same area peoplpe have different expereinces and perceptions...I don't find that long of waits except for on occasion for one class...otherwise the long days are par the course of showing sometimes....

I am also not clear as to what people are complaining about? A coach is supposed to watch you, warm you up, prep you etc...should the head coach at Football games go home before sending the players on the field? Should a Skating coach warm up their student then leave because after all this is about learning and being self sufficient...of course not, because it is important adn a competition and the trainer needs to see what is happening or happens in teh ring, a never finished work of art, a program is not hand holding it is building constantly and moving up and unfortunately moving down are parts of that...I also understand that if you are not used to the programs that many people have with trainers it may come across as hand holding and lets face it.....there are so many preconceived subjective notions on here, even the ones faintly visible are obvious that there is a judgement adn unfortunately not accurate of why trainers and riders hold up the rings...it is not to go shopping or have lunch...

Moesha
Nov. 12, 2010, 12:17 PM
Why do so many women( and women especially) have to make snide remarks about what ever other people do with their horses?
WHO CARES?
Go ride and enjoy yourself and let these "Railbirds" caw like crows. I guess it gives them a degree of self importance to run down others.
Go have fun.
There are these types in any sport you go into. Like Couch quarterbacks...

Do what you enjoy and ignore the cat calls and snipes of the "Railbirds"...
If they had advice worth anything they'd be selling it.
What ever you want to do, go for it.
If you listen to all this kind of stuff you will lose your sanity.
Show your self confidence and have a blast.
Life is too short to let this stuff affect you.
JMHO
sadlmaker

Fantastic!!!

It has taken me far too long to finally realize you cannot control other people's behavior even people claiming to be friends will lie, mislead,exagerate, etc...it is like they live on Drama and if it isn't around them they create it...time and time again, all you can do is ignore these people becasue like you said if their advice was so good they would be out there selling it.....but better yet the'd be out their showing...and the fact so many railbirds could never and have never done what they critique is telling..and this goes for trainers who feel the need to critique other barns when theres is a mess! Mind your own house first then worry about other people's.

RugBug
Nov. 12, 2010, 12:30 PM
Sheesh, yes.

Your trainer cannot ride for you. They cannot be IN the SHOW RING with you. The argument is not "You should do everything TOTALLY BY YOURSELF OMG", or that you shouldn't have a trainer in the warm-up, it's that "If you need your trainer standing ringside WHILE YOU SHOW, they need to be there ON TIME, or you should either ride the round without them or go to the back of the line without complaint."

Your trainer's time-management skills or lack thereof are not every other entry's problem. Holding rings is absurd. Get there on time.

And in most sports, if you're caught coaching once the performance begins, your student's disqualified for cheating.

First let's say that I don't like ring holds either...but at multi-ring shows, I can see how it happens. IMO, it should only happen on occasion. Trainers need to figure out how to avoid it if possible, but sometimes it just can't be avoided.

Being coached from the rail doesn't get you disqualified for cheating, nor should it. If they judge hears obvious coaching from the rail, they may take it upon themselves not to use the rider, but there is no "cheating" or "disqualification." Most rail coaching, even at podunk schooling shows where it is admittedly more needed, is very quiet as the rider goes by the trainer's spot on the rail, unless the situation is dire....and even then, the chips usually fall where they may without trainer input.

RugBug
Nov. 12, 2010, 12:42 PM
I am sad that the 'rated' shows do not offer a 'protected' division for the older horsey set (free of fearless kids or professionals). There needs to be a warm, welcoming summons to riders who are returning to the arena after a long hiatus or those older riders coming fresh into the sport.


Good luck on your show.

But, you really want a protected division? Seriously. There are usually green rider divisions at smaller shows. Arent' they protected? Just because you have to compete against children doesn't mean your not given a protected place. Sure some of those kids are gutsy, fearless sorts. But some are timid and scared, just like you. If you had a protected division, some of your competitors would be gutsy and fearless. Some would be timid. You can't homogenize a class just to make yourself feel better.

You go out, do your best and learn to be happy with that. Learn to have confidence in a round well-ridden whether it's against the tots or the pros and don't rely solely on what the judge says to measure your success and boost your confidence.

Haalter
Nov. 12, 2010, 01:27 PM
Okay, cake havers and eaters.

We now have 8 ring circus horse shows so we can fit in all the wonderful 2'6" classes this lovely thread champions before sundown, and it's the trainers fault they can't be in 6 rings at once? And people paying a significant amount of $$$ each day for trainer's assistance are spoiled brats?

The logistics of 30 horses, 1 head trainer, 2 assistants and 8 rings means there are probably going to be some delays while trainer runs the gamut from 2'6" - 3'6". It's not being self-centered and spoiled, it's The Way Things Are Now That Everyone Gets to Horse Show.

Also amusing in this thread, the correlation of trainer dependency and the 2'6" rider. I understand there are some knowledgeable re-riders here that have been there, done that and have decided they are happiest in the 2'6" ring. Kudos, awesome, trust me, your trainer LOVES you. But I think others are GREATLY overestimating the knowledge and experience of the average 2'6" rider. You can champion it all you want, but it is still a division filled largely by beginners. You want to see delays at the horse show? LOL, send that group out on their own with no assistance.Great post.

And also, I for one, think that there should be another 2'6" division strictly limited to scared menopausal women who haven't shown in 17+ years. You should have to take a test beforehand to prove that you are adequately terrified and menopausal, otherwise you "age out" and have to compete with the other 2'6" rusty stirrup novice beginner riders in a less restrictive division. If there are too many in the division, it will be split into "bays" and "other color horses". Oh, if the gate gets held for more than 2 minutes while your trainer is in another ring, you are automatically disqualified.