DISCUSSION ON -- buyers are going to come to Moven Park!

[Oldenburg Mom]

And all I can say is, for those of you who will be there, be on your best behaviour. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

It's so very very sad. Two very very nice people in my barn last night were discouraged because they want warmbloods. Well, big surprise... everyone else here in the Twilight Zone has TBs. Not that there is anything wrong with Thoroughbreds. It's just a dream that both of them had.

BUT, when they went looking (and traveling all over *sigh*) all they found was $30K+ horses, that weren't sound. Frustration ruled, until I told them of the *wonders* that awaited them at the breed shows.

Now, regardless of whether you are pro or con the breed shows (BS)--and I am speaking of the dressage BS here--this is an opportunity for BUYERS to MEET breeders. This can only be a good thing. Plus, if they have a positive experience, you KNOW they're going to go back and blab.

So! They may not find what they're looking for. But at least they'll be there.

Oh, and one more thing, before I forget.

Question for you breeders with decent acreage. If a client bought a baby from you, say right around $7K-$8K would you keep that baby on your farm for a nomial monthly fee - say, $75? Yes, the client would be obligated to pay all vet and farrier bills. But would you do it? Have you done it? For how long, etc.

[Oldenburg Mom]

And all I can say is, for those of you who will be there, be on your best behaviour. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

It's so very very sad. Two very very nice people in my barn last night were discouraged because they want warmbloods. Well, big surprise... everyone else here in the Twilight Zone has TBs. Not that there is anything wrong with Thoroughbreds. It's just a dream that both of them had.

BUT, when they went looking (and traveling all over *sigh*) all they found was $30K+ horses, that weren't sound. Frustration ruled, until I told them of the *wonders* that awaited them at the breed shows.

Now, regardless of whether you are pro or con the breed shows (BS)--and I am speaking of the dressage BS here--this is an opportunity for BUYERS to MEET breeders. This can only be a good thing. Plus, if they have a positive experience, you KNOW they're going to go back and blab.

So! They may not find what they're looking for. But at least they'll be there.

Oh, and one more thing, before I forget.

Question for you breeders with decent acreage. If a client bought a baby from you, say right around $7K-$8K would you keep that baby on your farm for a nomial monthly fee - say, $75? Yes, the client would be obligated to pay all vet and farrier bills. But would you do it? Have you done it? For how long, etc.

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

We have kept young horses for buyers before, but really could not do it for $75 a month. Our expenses run higher than that for an older horse, and even for a baby that is cutting bare feed and housing pretty close. Babies are care intensive, need handling and basic "seeing the world" kind of activities. And if the horse is already sold, keeping it is technically board, which means we need to add CC&C coverage on to our insurance policy.

On the other hand, we are on site 96% of the time, which is important for little ones. And they get daily handling and training. Our herd is fixed, so there is no moving of horses in and out. And board is generally cheaper with us than it would be at a facility the buyer would have access to.

[can't re-]

I have and will keep babies/yearlings for no charge. I only charge vet and farrier costs. It has worked out well and I love having the babies a little longer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I do have a contract and decide with the buyer when the horse will leave.

[ahf]

I can easily feed 75 bucks worth of hay a month in the winter to one young horse, before he eats the first mouthful of grain. It might even out over the summer on a cost basis - but my time would not be compensated for in any way.

Tannenwald has a VERY, very good point about Care Custody and Control coverage. My insurance coverage would go through the roof if I had horses on the farm that were not my own.

But if it came right down to it? I would seriously consider it for maybe 100 per month. Depending on the insurance costs. (Sigh) And I said I'd never board another horse for the rest of this lifetime - and probably the next.

Never say never I suppose.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, this is what I'm thinking.

$100 per month, is better than 570 per month. Which is what local board is. Hmmmmm. Think about THAT one.

So, if you purchase a weanling, say at 6 months, EXCLUDING VET & FARRIER, and you, the breeder, can keep the child for another 2.5 years, the client has still spent only 10K And guess what? It's all with YOU. Plus, he/she has a good horse to start. He/she knows how its been raised, carefully, considerately etc.

$10K for a 3 year old. Or even $10,600 for a 3.5 year old, with the kind of breeding I've seen you guys produce, actually, is VERY good value for money.

You folks might want to think about it.

And excuse me, isn't ANYONE going to say

"Well Done OMom!" I mean for bringing buyers to the show.

[LW]

Well, hopefully they have good luck! There are some nice WB breeders in that area. (unfortuantely I am not http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes, my price for WB foal (one now is $8500) includes "everything" until weaned except insurance on foal. This has worked well for me in the past. I charge $150 full board with worming for yearlings bought here.

Sincerely Linda
www.walnut-farm.com (http://www.walnut-farm.com)

[Oldenburg Mom]

Linda,

What state?

I find it makes a LOT of difference. e.g., a friend in VA would only charge $75 ... but her guys are out 24/7, year round. No blankets. It's called, "winter coat." She only brings 'em in for lightning and hurricanes.

Seems to work for her ... and her clients.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Oh, and plus, even if you pay $10k ... you're still talking about only $2600 until they're ready to "go to work" ... ok, not grand prix. But (depending on temperament) it also can't be worse than getting a "fresh" OTTB.

From a buyers' perspective, hey, it's STILL a good deal.

[ponygirl]

Oldenburg Mom- As a potential buyer, Id be more inclined to buy repeatedly from someone who did this.

[LW]

I am in Ohio.

and....good job for doing this! We small breeders need all the help we can get!

Linda
www.walnut-farm.com (http://www.walnut-farm.com)

[pcwertb]

I was able to buy my 18 month old and leave him with his breeder until he was 2. That way, I got him when he was old enough to play with (ground driving, trail riding at 2 1/2). Granted, he was a pony not a WB, so I didn't have to wait as long to get on him. But it was great for the breeder and great for me.

I think, to get around the CCC insurance thing, I paid for his board up front with my purchase, and was not listed on sales contract as board. Which meant she really kept him for free........I suppose she still should have had the insurance, but at least she wasn't making money from it the way tax people would look at it.

[renee]

i am along the lines with LW. I pay for everything exluding insurance up until the foal is 5 months old. i could keep a youngster for around 150 a month which includes worming. Owner would be responsible for farrier costs and vet costs. I feed buckeye feed. i have a nice ducth colt i have priced very very resonable. maybe if the buyers would like to come east they can come see my colt and Lw's babies at the same time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. she is in ohio and i am in michigan, and i could show them another at the same time.

[crestline]

We've done reduced board for a while while horses grow up...have to agree though...couldn't do it for $75 but could CERTAINLY do it for less than the $570 board rate where you are http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm curious where your buyers were looking...I know many nice going horses in the Pacific NW, under 30K and totally sound...heck...I've got 4 here right now and countless others with people I know. I must agree though...for great concentrations of them...breed shows are it.

[eurofoal]

Good goin' OM!!! Are you meeting the buyers there to show them around? Is that a show that notes "For Sale" horses by an asterick in the program?

About the boarding-- I'm currently boarding a full sized horse for $75 per month. I may actually be losing money, but, it was a mare that I sold inexpensively because I wanted to keep the foal she was carrying. My other choices were to sell her in foal, or to sell her either open or re-bred after she foaled. This worked for me... I sold Bali around Christmas time, about 5 months in foal, with the understanding that she stays here till the foal is weaned. The buyer pays the board, I pay all foal related expenses and assist with the re-breeding of the mare and transport to repro facility.

Now, my insurance and facility size doesn't allow for boarding per se, but I always tell buyers about a great lady that I know, with 10 acre pastures, who boards for $125 per month. I think it's a good idea to know who does board, and provide those referrals for your foal buyers-- kind of like the "foal rearers" of Germany.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crestline:

I'm curious where your buyers were looking...I know many nice going horses in the Pacific NW, under 30K and totally sound...heck <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is one of the points I made. Look, I have to say it. You breeders know where ALL the bodies are buried. You know the inside poop on this horse, that horse, etc. etc.

And I would be willing to bet that you know WHO bred them, HOW GOOD the breeder is, how well and carefully the baby's been raised, whether it's been backed/longed/wormed/etc. since birth. You know the temperament, the Mama, the Daddy. THIS is the information that's important when buying.

It's making the connection that's important. And I think one of the (obviously) great places to meet all the breeders is ... NEWSFLASH!! Breed shows.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Eurofoal
Are you meeting the buyers there to show them around? Is that a show that notes "For Sale" horses by an asterisk in the program?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably meeting them there. I'll walk them around then let them make their own way. You breeders are a gregarious lot, so I'm sure you'll have lots to say. And the show itself is really, quite fascinating. They are not "clients" of mine. I am not making any $$$ on this. It is not my obligation to make sure they find something.

What I DID say to them, and what I believe, quite fervently, is that excellent/marvelous horses are being bred in this country, for reasonable prices (think good value for money) You just need to find each other ...

[nycjumper]

Well, I can confirm that OM is right on about the prices around here, I've seen lots of very unsound,very expensive TBs.

OM has preached the joys of foals to me & I'm close to being a convert. I can't make it to Morven but am hoping to make it to a breed show in the next month or two. And I learned all about them from her & this board. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I'm one of those that would be very interested in leaving a baby on the farm for a while before bringing him up here. I can't justify the cost of board up here (& OM - $595 - that's a bargin. I think most places are $800 with almost no turn out that I've seen http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif)

What type of insurance would breeders need? And would you prefer to have board costs paid up front? Oh & honestly, while we're educating ignorant me - what type of buyer do you look for with one of your babies? And what type of ?s should a buyer be asking you? And what type of vet/farrier costs does one have on average with a foal (ignoring emergencies of course). Sorry for so many ?s, the world of babies is new to me.

But as OM said, many AAs are being priced right out of the market. And the breeders are there with great horses & reasonable prices. All we need to do is find a way to get them together! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Look - as far as the cost of keeping a baby for a client who has purchased one - it depends upon each situation. $300, $50 $700 $100. It doesn't matter how much, as long as the breeder and client agree.

Just be careful. There's a biiiiig difference between buying a 3-3.5 year old at around $10,000. and $14,500 (for example-that's $250 per month board.)

Again, it's not my problem. I negotiate my own deals with my partners, and so far (knock on wood) we've all worked any issues out very well indeed.

I'm just trying to say to you breeders out there--especially ones that are having a hard time selling -- think of alternatives. Think out of the box. Try something new and different. Work with the riders and buyers. Together, buyers and breeders, something wonderful can be built: outstanding WBs, home-cooked, right here in the good ol' US of A!!

I really loff alll you guys!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> NYCJumper

OM has preached the joys of foals to me & I'm close to being a convert. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I'm really not preaching. I'm just trying to open some eyes. But deeeeeee-lighted you're thinking about joining the <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>TBP: The Baby Party! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Teeeeheeee. You'll NEVER look back!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ahf:
I can easily feed 75 bucks worth of hay a month in the winter to one young horse, before he eats the first mouthful of grain. It might even out over the summer on a cost basis - but my time would not be compensated for in any way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, again, everyone has to find their own way.

I look at it this way. Would you rather sell a baby for $7K or $8K and have someone pay you $75 or $100 a month for board. Or would you rather try and sell the baby, backed only, at 3.5 years old.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Let me think. I'll take selling ANYDAY over not selling. Two reasons. One, it means my name is going to get out there. Two, it means I can breed another.

Now this assumes you have problems selling babies. If you don't BRAVO-BRAVISSIMO! You don't need a situation like this.

I'm not being critical. I'm just trying to help you guys, because I believe in your product.

[ahf]

I can do the math, thanks. I am fully aware I'm never going to break even for the costs it takes to put the baby on the ground - and it's only a short hop to boarding them at a loss too....which is why my last sentence (which you left out) says.......

"But if it came right down to it? I would seriously consider it for maybe 100 per month. Depending on the insurance costs. (Sigh) And I said I'd never board another horse for the rest of this lifetime - and probably the next."

[sbp]

Oldenburg Mom--
I have to agree with you about 'thinking outside of the box'...I have worked so many unique deals, mainly because I 1) wanted to find my foals good, loving homes, and 2) the buyer was the kind of person I wanted my foal going to.

I have offered to keep the foals I sell for NO CHARGE for feed and hay, for varying amounts of time, depending on the situation. It has been a positive experience so far, for all involved. For me, I still make a profit. And I get to handle them everyday, which I love to do. Since I own the mares and the stallions, I do not have stud fees involved, and truely, it does not cost me much to feed them. Right now, I have 2 yearlings I sold last year as weanlings waiting to go to their new home. I would definitely do it again.

Susan

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well done, sbp. Now, tell me you go to the breed shows.

And one more question. Do you have problems selling your babies with this type of technique?

[Oldenburg Mom]

I'm sorry, ahf. Was NOT trying to be rude, nor confrontational, etc. I just get excited sometimes. And my fingers run away with me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Please accept my apologies.

You bring up another point, however, which I have loudly spouted from my soapbox. Breeders breed for the love of breeding—just like riders ride for the love of riding. Would they like to make a profit? Heck YES. Most of the time, however, they are thrilled just to break even.

Just wanted to let you know I kinda understand where you're coming from. You have to pay bills like everyone else. Plus mortgages. Plus insurance... the list is endless.

[sbp]

Actually, last year I sold all of my foals... 2 before weaning, one in utero, and and one just after weaning. I would have tried to get them to a breed show, but--fortunately for me they had already sold! I have taken my Welsh stock to breed shows in the past few years though (my first Welsh and cross foals were born this year, and I do plan on geting them to a show or two http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )
This year, my 2 WB babies are due 'late' One is due NOW (VERY anxious to see this foal!!) and the next in late June.

I really believe in doing what I can to make a purchase possible, and equitible for all involved. I believe in the quality of my offspring. In my situation, my stallion is retired, and not widely recognized by name. I know if I get some of his offspring out there, these guys will sell themselves...

Susan
ps. OM--thanks for being a 'thought provoker'!! I think we all need to bend the traditional means at times to make things work!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>OM--thanks for being a 'thought provoker'!! i think we all need to bend the tradition means at times to make things work!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'll be honest, sbp. There are a couple of very selfish reasons why I want YOU to be successful:

First, if I am trying to bring babies along to the point of showing-to-sell, I want the "made in the USA" to carry the prestige "imported" carries. Ok. Maybe it won't happen tomorrow, but that's the goal.

Second, the more successful you are, the more successful your kids are.

Third, the more successful your name, the more successfully your under saddle kids will sell.

Fourth, having had a QH that had to be retired at age 9, and who broke my heart in many, many pieces, I would like to make sure it never happens to me again. The only way I can be sure a horse is raised correctly is to raise him myself (in partnership with people I trust.)

Fifth: the keyword is excellence. Excellent babies. Excellent training. Excellent riding. Now, I can't do the training. And I most certainly can't do the riding (maybe someday, when I am very very old!) But I can try and find excellent babies. If you aren't successful,... you're not going to have excellent babies to sell.

Sixth: Thank you very much for such a kind word. It gives me the warm & fuzzies ... I think you guys are pretty fabulous.

[Riverdale]

Well..if I have to take care of them for another 2 years and don't get paid for my work I rather retain ownership and sell them as 3 year olds. Horses take up space, require work, insurance etc. I don't like being responsible for someone else's horse. I need the space and my time if I want to breed more horses. The reason weanlings are cheaper is that it cost money and time to raise them.

Selling them as 3 or 4 year olds I will be reimbursed for my work.

But that's just me. Maybe this could work for someone else.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Riverdale,

You're right! It's not for everyone. Everyone has to figure out their own way of selling their babies.

I brought it up for those that may not have thought about it.

Just to clarify though, Owner pays nominal board, insurance on the horse, feet, vet, any supplies you may need to care for the horse. Whether or not the horse is trained or not is up to the participants.

It was just a thought.

[arnika]

OMOM, I just checked in and saw this thread.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Way to Go!</span> Both on thinking outside the box and for getting involved in such an enthusiastic way. Actually getting buyers to come to a breed show...........(where's the applause icon?) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

I'm curious. Are these friends of yours or people who you know from the same barn? The reason I'm being so nosy is that sometimes I think we (breeders) spend so much time at home on our farms, seeing only other breeders that we don't try as hard as we might to get other people attending our shows. Every small act adds word-of-mouth advertising and that can only be a good thing.

Terry

[DC]

I absolutely will board the horse for my cost (~125/mo for pasture board) until 2.5yrs. The owner has to pay for grain, vet, farrier, insurance and any kindergarten training they might want; but the space and hay are provided at my cost. If I sell a foal pre-weaning; I don't charge board at all until it's weaned. I'm in N.CA and I hate the idea of a foal kept in a stall which what most of the boarding is around here.

To clarify--I provide CC&C ins. as anyone who boards should but the buyer provides their own major med and mortality ins.

[lorik]

Omom,
You're a half step ahead of me. I'm in the process of putting together a buyer-breeder connection seminar at DAD this year. With the help of some of our COTH friends, this will become a reality. I just have to tie up some loose ends and get the committee approval then I'll announce it here on this board. I'm thinking of calling it "Puttin' it all together-from breeding shed to FEI contender" Whaddya think?
Lori

[arnika]

OMOM, I just went back and reread your first post and answered my own question.......Duh to me! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And lorik, that sounds super! Great title too. I'm sitting here discussing how I could arrange to make it up this year and maybe bring a youngster with me.

[silver]

If I could buy a baby and board it with someone who knew what they were doing for a low fee (ie the breeder) hell yeah I'd do it. I'd have a young horse coming up right now if I could have done that a couple years ago!!!
I knew I wouldn't have the time for a baby (or the money for big city board) for the last two years but knew I would have the time next year to get one started and to show.

I think you will be making a lot of people happy if this works out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

HEY! Isn't this exciting!!! By getting together and chatting about this ... maybe, just maybe, we can make a difference.

Wouldn't that be something!!!!

Lori - I think it's GREAT. And you know what? These two people would be great speakers/representatives for buyers out there. I'll see if they would be interested in being "interrogated" by the breeders who would attend. Because they gave up! Totally! They said all they found was cr@p for $30K+

And, I have said this to them, which I'm almost willing to make a standing offer (please note the word ALMOST)

Anyone, any rider, who comes to a breed show and is not impressed by, not only the quality, but also the professionalism and ... willingness of the breeders to talk about what they're doing ... I'll pay their expenses.

Now, of course, I did say ALMOST. But to my two friends, I HAVE said that. I defy any buyer or rider to come to these shows and not be impressed by the outstanding quality.

We spent an hour and a half talking in the barn last night. Discussing alternatives to buying raised and under saddle warmbloods. I have two people that are at least willing to COME and LOOK.

Let's all cross our fingers. Ok? Oh, and pray alot. I can't afford to reimburse them for their trip!!! HAHAHA.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by silver:
If I could buy a baby and board it with someone who knew what they were doing for a low fee (ie the breeder) _hell yeah_ I'd do it. I'd have a young horse coming up right now if I could have done that a couple years ago!!!
I knew I wouldn't have the time for a baby (or the money for big city board) for the last two years but knew I would have the time next year to get one started and to show.

I think you will be making a lot of people happy if this works out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me, why don't you guys just sit here and wait for them to come out of the woodwork. This is number two... within four hours.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

Re: the questions and comments on insurance. Care, custody & control insurance is what a farm gets to protect them against claims of wrongdoing and negligence in the event of injury to, or death of, the horse. This is a different animal from mortality & major medical, which the owner/buyer has the option of obtaining.

When the horse is sold and risk of loss passes, the person/business caring for the animal needs CC&C insurance or they are "self insuring" against claims over the injury or death of the horse.

If you think that paying board in advance and not calling it board is going to do the trick, guess again. There are a lot of technical drafting issues involved in trying to make that kind of a contract work. And insurance or the lack thereof has nothing to do with taxes or the IRS. CC&C is liability insurance.

If you think, "well, I would never sue this person who is caring for my horse because it dies at her place," or "this buyer will never sue me if something happens to her horse here," think again. When push comes to shove a lot of people will do things they would not have thought. And when push comes to shove, it may not even be the decision of one of the original parties. For example, if buyer died and then horse was injured due to fault or negligence of the boarding facility, would the executor of the estate give the facility slack? No, and in fact, if there is a solid claim against the facility, the executor would be breaching his/her fiduciary duty to maximize the value of the estate for the beneficiaries by not pursuing a claim. OK, maybe that is a little "out there" in terms of what normal people think about, but these things do happen. You may not imagine the issues that arise around horses...

But a more common example would be, Buyer buys and insures horse for mortality and/or major medical. Seller boards horse. Horse dies. Buyer and Seller both cry in their beer, but Buyer figures her insurance policy will at least cover the monetary loss. Guess what? Under the terms of the insurance policy, Buyer is no longer the party with the loss. The insurance company is, because they are paying Buyer and "stepping into Buyer's shoes" as Buyer's subrogee. This means that Buyer's insurance company gets to go after Seller, and Buyer's insurance company doesn't give one whit about the mutual non-litigious feelings that Buyer and Seller had toward each other, unless the contract effectively extinguishes any claims. And in most jurisdictions, you cannot contract to avoid liability for what is characterized as "gross negligence," so there is always an open door.

So, in a nutshell, if you care for a horse owned by someone else, it is your neck on the line, and that is what CC&C insurance is for. This can apply to pre-weaning sales as well, whether board until weaning is included or not in the price, depending on how your purchase agreement is drafted.


Now, back into my "breeder hat," the only limitation I would have on boarding at a reasonable price a horse that I bred would have to do with the population. Having a horse sold and gone means you have that much more space, time, and other resources to devote to the rest of the herd, new babies, etc. All in all, these situations can work very well for all parties.

nycjumper: <span class="ev_code_BLUE">What type of insurance would breeders need? And would you prefer to have board costs paid up front? Oh & honestly, while we're educating ignorant me - what type of buyer do you look for with one of your babies? And what type of ?s should a buyer be asking you? And what type of vet/farrier costs does one have on average with a foal (ignoring emergencies of course). Sorry for so many ?s, the world of babies is new to me. </span>

The breeder/boarding facility needs CC&C or to accept having their neck stuck out. The buyer may have mortality or mortality with major medical. Some facilities may make that a requirement of boarding, some will not.

The type of buyer desired depends in part on the baby. In general, whether a baby or mature horse, I prefer an owner who expects to keep the horse for the foreseeable future. I would hate to sell one into an uncertain future, though nothing is ever certain. I like an experienced owner or someone who is enthusiastic about learning. And primarily, I want a good match between buyer and horse, in terms of personality, abilities (and limitations), and intended use. Some are ideal for amateurs or children, some are for skilled and experienced riders and will not be sold to amateurs. Some babies are offered with a special incentive to good show homes. Even with a little foal there are plenty of indications of just what kind of a personality the little crumb-snatcher will have, and a good match helps to ensure that the buyer has the horse they want and the horse has a happy and secure home.

And BTW, OM, thanks for stirring the pot of domestic breeders & buyers!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And BTW, OM, thanks for stirring the pot of domestic breeders & buyers! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're kidding, right? Stirring the pot?

You know what? Next time, I'll just shut my mouth and fingers and deal with people who think my ideas have some validity.

Just forget it ... sorry I even opened this topic. I should have known better: no good deed goes unpunished.

*sheesh*

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

OM, I think you took that completely opposite of how I intended it! I meant, thank you for thinking of ways to connect domestic breeders and buyers! Connect, like mixing, like initiating contact between two groups, like stirring! I was trying to acknowledge and recognize your earlier statement/question:

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">And excuse me, isn't ANYONE going to say

"Well Done OMom!" I mean for bringing buyers to the show.</span>

I thought it the least I could do since I only responded to your ancillary question to breeders, and then hijacked your thread to yap about insurance.

I am so sorry if you thought it was negativity directed toward you. That was not the intent.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Oh. SORRRY. I'm a doofus.

I had another distressing evening, and of course, think everyone is against me.

Sorry... I'm the dummie.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lorik:
Omom,
You're a half step ahead of me. I'm in the process of putting together a buyer-breeder connection seminar at DAD this year. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good job OM and lorik! Why does my son have to have graduation on the day of Morvan http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[PonyFixer]

I too, was distraught with the cost of ANY horse with ANY training in NoVA. I could not afford anything, and most close to my price range were problems or lame. SOOOOOO. I bought young. Yearling to be exact. While I didn't keep him at the breeders I found a nice, private boarding facility with good people, turnout, etc. I boarded him for $250/mo (cheap in NoVA) for a total of $4500 before sitting on him at 2.5. Even so, this brought my cost under $15,000 (well under) and I didn't have to come up with a big chunk all at once. Plus I got to see him grow, worked with him on the ground, etc. I had a fabulous experience and would easily do a similar thing again.

The only drawback....even with FABULOUS breeding, there of course is no guarrantee that the horse will turn out (mind, body, or spirit) like the horse you want.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PonyFixer:
The only drawback....even with FABULOUS breeding, there of course is no guarrantee that the horse will turn out (mind, body, or spirit) like the horse you want. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very very true.

HOWEVER, as a partner I have once said, buying a baby and raising is less of a cr@p shoot if you do it sllllllooooowwwwwllly. Slowly. A lot of horses cannot take the MENTAL strain.

However, if brought along slowly, the odds improve. Having said that, bringing up baby slowly doesn't have anything to do with basic temperament. So. Choose wisely.

I am very lucky (? is it luck, or careful buying?) as The Ducster has a wonderful temperament. I say this, of course, after he kicked at me twice today in the field when I was giving his babysitter carrots, ... and not him.

Ahhhhh. So many wonderful babies, so little time.

[Future Breeder]

I'd love to hear comments from other breeders.. I hope no one minds my shameless bump http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oakleigh]

<span class="ev_code_RED">OM, SUPER JOB!!!!</span>

Here is a question for the legal eagles. What IF as breeder, your name stays on the papers as a silent partner on your foal, until it leaves the farm? Wouldn't that get around some of the insurance problems?

I have had two foals/youngsters die and the thought of a law suit against the barn owner NEVER crossed my mind. One was a fencing incident (Electrobraid) and one was a red bag/breech delivery. Neither of these happened on my property, but on the property of my trainer. It's sad and a loss, and you just move on. Why does everyone want to sue? Sad that this is the mentality the people in US have assumed... but that is another topic for another thread. No flames, please.

I'm all for breeders selling young and boarding the foals at a nominal cost. Especially if you have enough land for them to stay out to grow. There is nothing worse (in my opinion) than selling a weanling and seeing it go to a boarding arrangement where it's in a stall for 20+ hours a day. Foals need to be outside to develop and be healthy, mentally. I have refused offers where I knew the foal would be cooped up at a fancy barn. Felt bad about refusing them because I knew eventually it would be a great home. But not for a weanling, and maybe not even for a yearling!

OM, I would LOVE to see more buyers show up at these breed shows. Often the only ones watching are the owners. Even at Devon the morning and afternoon audience can be sparse. In Europe, the stands are packed! What are they doing differently to attract such audiences?

I still say we need "raisers" like they have in Europe. Group settings for foals of the same age and sex. They are raised in large groups, then pared down to groups of 8, then pared down to groups of 4 as they get older. They don't go into individual stalls. They have large rooms in barns that hold several foals. They are fed hay silage and hay. The board fees for these situations are very reasonable, approximately $150 per month. If we had regional raisers, we would be more successful as US breeders!

Just some thoughts...
Oakleigh

[Home Again Farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I still say we need "raisers" like they have in Europe. Group settings for foals of the same age and sex. They are raised in large groups, then pared down to groups of 8, then pared down to groups of 4 as they get older. They don't go into individual stalls. They have large rooms in barns that hold several foals. They are fed hay silage and hay. The board fees for these situations are very reasonable, approximately $150 per month. If we had regional raisers, we would be more successful as US breeders!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%, Oakleigh.

OM — good job to bring this up. I am coming to it very late. My hands have been occupied with a sick baby.

I have boarded babies after weaning and am happy to do so. Most leave as long yearlings. I charge $150, with farrier, vet bills being extra. However, I could not do that with every foal I have or I would very quickly run out of room and time. You would be amazed at how quickly your horse population grows on a farm when you breed several mares each year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I also have to say that it is MUCH more of a strain to care for other people's youngsters than my own. I feel SO responsible and really agonize over the possibility of someone else's baby being hurt or becoming sick while in my care. When they are mine, I carry the responsibility, the liability and also have complete control over what happens to them. When they are someone else's, the sense of responsibility can be almost overwhelming.

But having sold my last three crops as babies, I can also say that having them leave so early can be very hard. Missing watching them grow up is really a bummer. I have been lucky, though, with buyers who keep in touch and send pictures and news. That makes it a LITTLE easier.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok. Here it is ... the update.

First. And most important. They thought I was exaggerating when I was LOUDLY and constantly singing the praises of the breed shows.

Well, they were blown away, simply blown away. &lt;---their words, not mine. They could NOT believe the prices being mentioned. They could NOT believe the quality.

Let's put this in perspective, shall we?

They were looking on Long Island, which as many of you know, is not exactly underpopulated with horses, hmmmm? The lady I brought had literally given up looking for a warmblood as all she saw were overpriced, unsound rejects (poor guys ... I feel sorry for the horses.)

Here's the news flash:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They found SIX, yes SIX within their price range: sound, beautiful and well bred. They found them within ONE day. In fact, I would say three hours or less. They found them AT A DRESSAGE BREED SHOW, and they were looking for a hunter/jumper. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On top of that they were completely flabbergasted, and I do mean rendered speechless about the attitude of the competitors. Competitors that had done less well in a class were walking around congratulating the winners, and MEANING it ... and the two of them, as outsiders, were welcomed with open arms, completely unaware that they were buyers.

They were amazed. Astonished. Gobstopped. They thought it was BETTER than I had described it.

You guys ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif you're just the best. You made me proud. Now, let's just hope these two go back and start blabbing to the rest of LI!

[lorik]

Well done OMom!
I've always thought that breed shows would be a good place to look for your next performance horse. And I've always found the competitors and the professional handlers to all be very approachable. Always wanting to tell the world about what they have! That's part of the fun I have running those shows and why I try to make each show better in some way for them.
I hope, to that your two friends not only tell folks on LI, but tell everyone they know. Seems we're the best kept secret around.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lorik:

I've always thought that breed shows would be a good place to look for your next performance horse. I hope, to that your two friends not only tell folks on LI, but tell everyone they know.

Seems we're the best kept secret around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ain't it the truth LoriK? And yup, I've encouraged them to gossip and blab as much as they can to anyone that will stand still long enought to buttonhole!

Let's hope it works.

[KT crosses her fingers]

[LLDM]

OMom - How did it go? How did our boy do? PT me if you want - 'cause I want DETAILS!

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

LLDM ... I'll send you a PT on Monday or over the weekend.

[Equine Connection]

Hi Oldenburg Mom: Glad to hear all went so well and that such a positive impression was made on the visitors. That's so important. And what a great place to promote our youngsters. Maybe this is the start of something! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And I'm very sorry we had to miss the show as the boys were "fit to fight" as they say! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But alas, my "day job" beckoned me strongly (it's the end of our fiscal year...), and I could not take off as planned. But, we won't miss the 8/14 show!

Take care and very best wishes for a wonderful season! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Gold Dust]

------------------------------------------------
Let's put this in perspective, shall we?

They were looking on Long Island, which as many of you know, is not exactly underpopulated with horses, hmmmm? The lady I brought had literally given up looking for a warmblood as all she saw were overpriced, unsound rejects (poor guys ... I feel sorry for the horses.)
----------------------------------------------


I don't believe that is the picture of all warmbloods on the Island.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
------------------------------------------------
Let's put this in perspective, shall we?

They were looking on Long Island, which as many of you know, is not exactly underpopulated with horses, hmmmm? The lady I brought had literally given up looking for a warmblood as all she saw were overpriced, unsound rejects (poor guys ... I feel sorry for the horses.)
----------------------------------------------


I don't believe that is the picture of all warmbloods on the Island. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Gold Dust! Glad to hear from you!

I do not think this is an accurate picture either ... Paard Hill is on LI and boy they have some nice horses. And of course, Peter Ruig is one heck of a fine gentleman. Personally, I was delighted to see him do so well at Devon last year.

Having said that, please note that these were not my words, nor, for that matter, my viewpoint. They *were*, however, the comments of someone who had been looking for a considerable amount of time. What her specs were, I don't know. What her price range was/is, haven't a clue. But she had given up finding a WB in her price range. And she/they did find six candidates at Morven Park.

Look, the point here isn't the warmblood market anywhere, whether it be Virginia, North Carolina, or Pennsylvania. The point is there IS an alternative to rushing off to Europe to find your next sporthorse candidate. They are called dressage breed shows.

Does that make sense?


P.S. You should have *COME* ... I thought you were! There's another in July ... how about it?!?! I promise, you'll be delighted. And the breed folks are just wonderful!

[Gold Dust]

Well, I'll finally give my opinion, being I have been lurking here for quite some time and am ready for the fire!!

What is the U.S. market? I believe it is for horses broke and started over fences. [in the H/J world as I can only voice an opinion in this discipline] Know your market and cater to that right? A dressage breeding show is not the market for most H/J buyers. The people buying that I know are watching them jump at a horse show and we all know what it costs and the amount of time it takes to get them to that stage of development. Remember, I'm speaking for the market that I see. So, taking a long and slow time to prepare them as I have heard many a breeder say, from the time they are born, until the first time they step in the ring, doing the math here, that is a long time invested and not to mention the financial end. So, keeping this short and simple, most people would rather buy something already on the way at this time. At least I think that is the major market at this time. For a fact I have heard of many a horse sold at a H/J show more then a breeding show. I may be wrong so breeders,tell me now.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have been lurking here for quite some time and am ready for the fire!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awwww. Heck. It's not fire. It's good honest open discussion. And that can ONLY be good!! And I'm delighted, as I am sure many others are here, to have a different, and yes, important point of view expressed. You're a trainer!

Ok. So now that we're feeling all warm and fuzzy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif let's get down to brass tacks.

You are right. The vast majority of people that are looking for horses want them under saddle. They do not want the babies. They are too much work, they take too long and cost too much money.

However, on top of that, there are some people out there, the American Breeders, the only thing they want to do is produce babies. They don't want to ride. All they want to do is breed.

So. You've got a big lump of people on the right that want a finished horse. And you've got a huge group on the left that all they want to do is breed. And they have no way to meet ... except pay HUGE amounts of money (which they don't have) to trainers. Which isn't going to happen because they don't HAVE the money.

This is a HUGE issue. It has been discussed ad nauseam here ... Europe remember has their system of young riders, and --someone correct me here if I'm wrong--it's part of the young rider education. They spend time with the youngsters.

Please, someone jump in here ... if I've got this wrong somebody tell me. THAT is the big problem with the US.

Now, dressage breeding shows may SEEM like a waste of time to ANYONE going over jumps of any type, size or kind. BUT, a lot of breeders take their young stock to these shows for experience, and because they are an alternative to the Hunter breed shows which some people see as very political/biased.

The people I took to the Morven Park show were looking for h/j. Again, they found six. Not all six were on the property ... at the shows ... but all the breeders were THERE!!! And they were breeding more than just dressage horses.

Gee, I don't know if this is making any sense. I am not a breeder, as you know. I want to work with youngsters, especially after what happened to me with RRB. But I DO believe there are some EXTRAORDINARY horses being bred here. And I believe that people need to try to solve this huge problem of bringing young horses along.

JMHO. And probably not worth a lot!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But gee, I'm glad you're joining in. Your point of view is invaluable!

[Oldenburg Mom]

And you're RIGHT. The best place to sell a h/j is at a h/j show.

But you've got to GET them there and they have to be doing, fairly consistently and fairly well!

Oh, and I've got to go to bed before I turn into a pumpkin. But again, your point of view here really is invaluable. And this discussion is a very important, and yes, frustrating one to many many many breeders.

Here's hoping you can help make a difference! So Bravo Bravissimo for wading in!

[Gold Dust]

Thanks for the welcome OM but it may become the saying 'you may hear what you don't want to hear' but I'll try to do this in a way not to make people mad.
Again, look at what the market is buying. Look at it from a future owners point of view. Most H/J people want to purchase a horse that either they can step in the ring with or at least start taking lessons right away. The market is few and far between of the buyer that will purchase a young horse and pay to have it brought along for a few years befor they even put one step in the irons. Look at it from their point of view. They can pay money to buy a baby, pay thousands and thousands of dollars to bring it along and not sure if in the end it is the horse for them or pay thousands and thousands of dollars to already see that the horse will and can do the job for them. Put all the future money spent on a yearling, that an owner will put in the horse befor they can actually compete with it. It will blow your mind. Then, when they see what they can spend on a horse that is in the ring at this time. The choice for them is already started.

'Breeders that just want to breed'. Hmmmm, todays market of what is buying, is that working? I don't know but I can surely say horses are selling much quicker at the show already jumping. Putting that in the equation, breeders may need to have staff that can do this for them. If you want people to buy U.S. born and raised here, give the market what it needs. You cann't change that. No way will many future owners buy a H/J until they see it go.

One thing any breeder will tell you. They can give you good blood lines, they can show you a product with good conformation. All of this, a must for having a great competition horse and all odds in your favor but you can not give it heart and the will to want to do this. That is a test that comes in time. So, looking at your average amateur rider, what do you think they will go for? What is the largest purchasing market? I know from my side of the fence, that is it.
Food for thought and you know I have more!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[lorik]

I don’t think the purpose of this thread was to say that the only place one should look for a performance horse is a dressage sport horse breed show. I believe that this was started to point out that breed shows are a wonderful alternative to driving all over hell’s half acre to look at numerous horses and make contacts. If, however, one is astute to bloodlines, horses for all disciplines can be found. And I’m not just talking about babies here (although the majority of the horses are 3 and under). There are under saddle classes so that one can evaluate movement and a little of temperament of older horses. Granted, you can’t evaluate jumping ability, but you can make the contact with the breeder to look at the horse again and evaluate that which couldn’t be shown at the show. And what better way to ‘start’ a horse for any discipline than dressage training.

If what a potential buyer is looking for is a ‘made’ or ‘nearly made’ horse of a particular discipline, obviously the show to go to would be one of that discipline. If, however the buyer is looking for potential at a reasonable price, I think a sport horse breed show is a great place to start. And I know one little guy who won a lot on the line as a weanling who is now in training with a BNR to be shown in the 4yr old IJF Classes. They’re out there if you know what to look for.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:

One thing any breeder will tell you. They can give you good blood lines, they can show you a product with good conformation. All of this, a must for having a great competition horse and all odds in your favor but you can not give it heart and the will to want to do this. That is a test that comes in time. So, looking at your average amateur rider, what do you think they will go for? What is the largest purchasing market? I know from my side of the fence, that is it.
Food for thought and you know I have more!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we have had some major discussions on this subject. IMHO the toughest nut for the breeders to crack is the H/J market, for the very reasons you state. So we spend more time going after the Dressage folks, since they see training as a "lifetime process". It makes it a little easier with them. But, yes, they still mostly want something they can ride. But they are usually a little more willing to "start young". Not much easier, butmore doable.

In the mean time, FWIW - I have several "hunter prospects" right now. I am trying to be creative in finding solutions. I am currently working on finding young talented riders (H/J and dressage). I can provide them with Very Nice prospects to ride and compete, basically for free. My horses can get more "finished" to the appropriate disciplne. They are already very well started. I have one awesome dressage rider, at least for the summer. I have a talented hunter rider who will start riding here soon. Both of these young women are in their early twenties, want to ride, and can ride! Both have lovely attitudes. Both have trainers who are thrilled that their students have access to some very nice horses to ride.

I have been trying a number of things to "bridge the gap". It is NOT easy to find solutions. Finding good trainers is hard enough, but once you find good trainers, it is easier to find their good students!

Gold Dust, we are open to ideas. We are VERY familier with the problems. We are still working out solutions, each our own and what works best for us. So please, chime on in!

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hey GD. I'm delighted you're here! As I said before, I believe it is important to look at the issue: you have a very important point of view. You actually have your finger on the pulse of the h/j buyer/market! As we all know, in this day and age, knowledge is power; the more that breeders can pick YOUR brain, the more successfully they can address the issue. Healthy discussion can never be a bad thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Most H/J people want to purchase a horse that either they can step in the ring with or at least start taking lessons right away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think there is a person on this area of CoTH that would disagree with you. Not one. I think that there may be a difference with dressage riders, but not much.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The market is few and far between of the buyer that will purchase a young horse and pay to have it brought along for a few years befor they even put one step in the irons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, agreed. Wholeheartedly. Couldn't agree more. The market for babies is substantially less than for made horses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They can pay money to buy a baby, pay thousands and thousands of dollars to bring it along and not sure if in the end it is the horse for them or pay thousands and thousands of dollars to already see that the horse will and can do the job for them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct again. And here (finally!) comes the "Yes, but..." reply. And this was MY experience:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>What I could afford to buy, as a 3/4/5 year old, was not even in the same universe as what was being asked as an outsider. When I started looking for the first project horse, the prices weren't even close.

The only way I could afford quality, was buy baby. Which, as you know, happened. The Ducster![/list]

Today, after what I have experienced over the last 18 or so months since he was purchased, if I wanted to find a horse, under saddle, with potential and regardless of discipline, I could probably have at least a dozen candidates with two or three phone calls.

And each one would have traceable bloodlines, in most cases GREAT bloodlines. And they would be well within my price range.

Hell's bells. I've GOT one in the barn on a free lease that I can afford to buy (just barely!) with literally world-class bloodlines, wonderful temperament and exceptional ability.

BUT. I would not have her to work with if I hadn't gone to meet the breeders at the dressage shows.

[Gold Dust]

OK. I'll start first with what I have seen transpire over the years. Many moons ago warmbloods came on the scene. America went nuts and had to have some. The European breeders were showing them horses that were started because you all have already agreed that they have the staff for this. Voila, middle America could purchase a warmblood, import fees included and still be ahead of what America was charging for an import. Hence the mad dash for americans rushing for passport applications!! lol Now, time passes and American breeders still are trying only to breed. Europe figures out that we have not caught on yet and raises the prices. Now, middle America can no longer afford to take the plane trip. U.S. breeders- It is your time now, grab it!!! Right?

Yes, as you have said, the H/J world is harder for breeders to attract and I agree. Given this situation you need to work with supply and demand. LLDM-you have already come up with a good start. These young girls working with good trainers that they train with is a good start. Also, putting someone on staff to start your horses for the H/J market seems at this time another. It is an investment that will pay off in the long run, no?

I more then often have clients looking to buy. A young child or amateur adult will first tell me I want safe. Safe is something that needs to be started befor I can even put it in that catagory. Then they want breeding, conformation jumping style and so on. So, what do I look for, horses started. Build it, and they will come.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I more then often have clients looking to buy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey guys, I think you all have a new best friend! Way to go GD!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, putting someone on staff to start your horses for the H/J market seems at this time another. It is an investment that will pay off in the long run, no?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an additional problem. Try find someone. There are not a lot of riders/trainers that want to work with youngsters.

Plus, these are not large farms. I spoke to Cheryl Frank a couple of months ago. One of the more astonishing comments she made was that the average breeder, on a world wide basis, had only two mares!

Gold Dust, here is the link to a 10 page thread that I happened to start, but was really started by Oakleigh.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=589601511&p=1

To say this is an extremely frustrating issue is a vast understatement.

[Gold Dust]

Frustrating-yes, but, for a breeder to sell to a H/J person, training is a must. Once, that is understood, then either you go for that market or don't but also, try to understand what it is we need to purchase and don't fault us if we have to go to Euope. Like I aid, it's your time, grab it. This is a tough buisness to make a living at so befor you venture in, beware. Many in my family do breed so I know what it is I speak. Everything they sell is started. They can do this because they do it all themselves so they can make a living at it.

Look at it out of the box of horses. I want new livingroom furniture. I saw a beautiful set in a newsday flyer. Now, I can buy that set or go out, buy,wood, nails,stain, foam fabric and so on and make my own. Dear Lord anyone that knows me knows that is to laugh at. So, I now have all this stuff, now I need to hire a carpenter to make it, a seamstress to make the pillows and here I am, right back to the same price in the flyer. Or, another option, unstained furnitue. Stain it myself and buy the pillows. Much cheaper. That's all a H/J person is looking for, not a finished product but something that looks remotely like what we want. Get it? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[eurofoal]

Regarding the 2 mares worldwide comment--If you consider that most breeders ARE small breeders-- then make another division-- the small breeders that bred for their own mounts, and the small breeders that bred for resale.

I am solidly in the latter category-- I sell them all, even my best ones.

Without hauling this thread too far off topic, I do want to make the point, though: that more people in both dressage and H/J are dabbling into the breeding world. They own one mare, (usually their former riding/show horse) they bred her to their favorite stallion, they plan on keeping the foal as their future superstar. They can absorb the high costs of raising a young horse to adulthood because they are not dealing in multiples. There are far more one-time breeders than ever before.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Frustrating-yes, but, for a breeder to sell to a H/J person training is a must. Once, that is understood, then either you go for that market or don't but also, try to understand what it is we need to purchase and don't fault us if we have to go to Europe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Training, as mentioned, is a huge issue that US breeders are trying to come to terms with: they acknowledge it, I believe, and are trying to find a way to accomplish it without raising the price drastically on what they're trying to sell.

Compare this (below) to what we here in the US have, e.g., nothing formalized? And I'm sure you could add to this as you must have seen it ALL as a trainer!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While studying for the German's three-year professional trainer license or Bereiter degree, he apprenticed with Peter Opper, "a man who is not that famous in Germany but does a good job and cares about his students." At Opper's farm, Kiesewetter had every kind of horse to learn from-foals to Grand Prix horses. "We had young stallions to prepare for the keuring – the stallion performing test and license. I started 120 3-year-old mares per year. And I got a lot of experience and that gave me a good base." Then he trained an additional four years for the master degree-the Pferdewirtschaftsmeister. "So seven years. It's a little bit long," he laughs. Before taking up his current post, Kiesewetter worked his way to deputy director of the German riding school in Warendorf, the place where the German Bereiters – Germany's professional riders are trained and tested.

Included in the German education is an academic component, not just learning the physical skills. "For example, you have to develop a written, long-term training plan for a certain rider and a certain horse as well as a short-term and an hour's training plan," Kiesewetter says. "And you have to describe each step you do in each particular lesson. So you have to build up your teaching very systematically. Then, you show this to the examination jury and they read it, and you have to give a specific lesson in front of them. And when you do something different than in your training plan, which is necessary sometimes because that particular rider or horse reacts differently than you expect, then, of course, you have to give them reasons for your changes. And you have to say, 'OK, today I did this because in my opinion the horse was not ready to do this or that'. You always have to give a reason. Then they figure out pretty soon whether you understand riding theory or not." This kind of thorough education is just what the new academy also offers riders from other countries.

What American riders lack, says Kiesewetter, is regular instruction. "You do a clinic here and there. It's a little bit like going to a cafeteria. And you pick out what you like but what you don't like, you don't pick out. Also, he has observed that Americans would do well to ride over fences or out in the field to gymnasticize the horse more, he says. "You as a rider get a much better feeling for balance when you're riding over fences or when you're riding a good gallop through the field. The goal is to bring out the natural ability of the horse – to show the best the horse can do. Therefore, you need a good mover, and a good mover is a good balancer. Don't limit yourself to the movement of the horse only in the dressage arena. My FEI horses do cavalletti work or basic jumping work one or two times a week. They do free jumping. They go out in the field. I train them on the racetrack. In the wintertime they work a maximum of three or four times a week in the dressage arena. The rest of the time it looks like a little bit like fun stuff – but I can work my horse as well on the racetrack, especially the tempi changes because they go more forward, there is no corner coming. You know, when I have the feeling the horse has too much energy, I make a good gallop. I really let them gallop. It keeps them fresh and happy." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, you see, because it's part of a formalized system, breeders get the advantage of having a rider work with their babies. Because there is no formalized system in the US ... etc.

So the issue becomes, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> How do American Breeders compete with an established educational system?

How do American Breeders solve the problem of training young horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As everyone also know, all a trainer needs to do in this country his hang out their shingle. And, they quite often DO! I'm sure you know half a dozen at least, GD!

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eurofoal:
They can absorb the high costs of raising a young horse to adulthood because they are not dealing in multiples. There are far more one-time breeders than ever before. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There it is in a nutshell. It is a high cost no matter how you look at it. Keeping that thought in mind, how do breeders attract a market for a buyer that has a high cost of raising and high cost of training? I think the only way is not only showing quality but where it is on its way to. OM- you mentioned your youngster has quality, but, can you guarantee to any H/J buyer what he will do for them? No you cann't so it is wait and see. How many want to risk that?
I wish I had answers for breeders but I don't. This is a part of the buisness that has no solution. If you can not train, you need to pay someone, it's that simple. Or, something like LLDM is trying. Partners are not the cure all either. Things put in motion when you have a weanling or yearling and time goes on, those things need re-evaluation some times as the said youngster ages. No matter who you are, breeder, trainer, owner,partner or handler. There is no easy way. Once you know you are in it for the long hard haul and expect success and dissapointments, that's all you can do.

I am only one of thousands of trainers. You know my market, sell me something. Believe you me, many more are standing in line with me.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am only one of thousands of trainers. You know my market, sell me something. Believe you me, many more are standing in line with me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my Lord! That's where the incredible frustration comes from: American Breeders KNOW the market is there, they KNOW US Trainers would LOVE to be able to buy home grown, home cooked horses, the US breeders are KILLING to sell them.

WHERE IN THE HECK IS THE RECIPE? In fact, let's go one step further:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>SOMEBODY needs to write the cookbook?!?!?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Oldenburg Mom]

&lt;aside&gt;

I love this discussion! This is where change comes from: different points of view exchanging ideas and learning from each other.

It's just GREAT!

THANK YOU, Gold Dust, for entering the fray and getting your hands dirty. Well Done!

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
WHERE IN THE HECK IS THE RECIPE? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I placed an order. To re-cap it simply, most H/J people want a horse already started. When my client says I want safe, I look and hope to find one that fits the bill. A yearling or two year old does not enter the equation.So, now said breeder needs to show me safe. That's where training comes in and now we are back to square one. I cann't change my market but can breeders re-vamp their process to supply the market for the demand? Is looking for an in-house trainer out of the question? If a breeder is looking to catch the H/J market that may be the only solution. Hence the breeders just breeding may not be the way to sell to that type of client and may have to re-think buisness structure to capture that market.

See-round and round we go. Breeders, learn your target audience and do your best to get their attention. Not try and change what the market is looking for. Does any of this make sense? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[nycjumper]

Does a "starting" facility exist anywhere in the US? It would seem there is a huge need for a place where all these beautiful babies could go to be started & where all the h/j people could come shopping. I know one of the biggest complaints out there is that buyers have to travel all over gods green earth to look at prospects.


And I think (as an h/j adult ammie) that there is a huge market for semi-greenie out there. Most people are getting priced out of the "made" horses but don't have the time/desire/skill to start a horse from scratch. I believe a lot of people would be interested in a horse who had the u/s basics down and that they could then finish themselves (or their trainer could http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

I don't know why no one has jumped on this for a business. I would have to run some numbers but I'm pretty sure it could be profitable.

[Oldenburg Mom]

But Gold Dust, the recipe is missing for the US breeder. All the ingredients are there: superb horsemen and women. Incredible dedication to producing a really quality foal. Time, effort, and yes a LOT of cash (just to get the foals on the ground!) We just need to try and figure out how to mix ‘em all up!

The infrastructure that is present in Europe just doesn't exist here—and yes, we just go round and round and round. Which is why so many people try and contribute on these threads and butt heads and get upset and throw ideas every which way: to look for ways around and through such huge obstacles. They haven’t failed to find the answer. They’ve just found 10,000 ways that won't work! (Thank you Thomas A. Edison)

For you do realize, don’t you, that eventually this problem WILL be solved? The US and its people have the unique ability to tear themselves apart, and re-invent rebuild themselves. … and it has done many times over is the past 200 years or so. Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that sooner, rather than later, we will find the solution—or a multitude of solutions—to the young horse issue(s).

Personally, I feel at the end of the day it just comes down to trying to beat the system, which I have ALWAYS loved to try and do. I have four separate partners on five different horses, the oldest one is two and a half. Thank goodness they all have more knowledge and sense than me! But I’m the one that brought them all together. Just a dummie pencil pusher on Wall Street! That’s only been seriously studying only 4 years. I don't have a CLUE what I'm doing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And boy, aren’t I having the time of my life! Come on, Gold Dust. Come along for the ride. Come down to the next breed show (Lexington July 16th ish.) It might be scary, but it sure isn’t going to be boring! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Gold Dust]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nycjumper:
Does a "starting" facility exist anywhere in the US? It would seem there is a huge need for a place where all these beautiful babies could go to be started & where all the h/j people could come shopping. I know one of the biggest complaints out there is that buyers have to travel all over gods green earth to look at prospects.
------------------------------------------
Not to my knowledge. I think breeders would agree with me that this would be too costly for them. That is why I thought breeders that are doing this in bulk need their own 'starting facility' on the farm. Then trainers could look at a few for clients.
--------------------------------------------
And I think (as an h/j adult ammie) that there is a huge market for semi-greenie out there. Most people are getting priced out of the "made" horses but don't have the time/desire/skill to start a horse from scratch. I believe a lot of people would be interested in a horse who had the u/s basics down and that they could then finish themselves (or their trainer could http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

Again. breeders, here is your market. People investing in young ones for re-sale, listen to this. Do you have the finacial backing to bring this horse along?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Again. breeders, here is your market. People investing in young ones for re-sale, listen to this. Do you have the finacial backing to bring this horse along?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gold dust, do you mean that there IS a market for the greenie, as nycjumper suggested? Or not?

[Janet]

This is an area where the experiened amateur can participate. An amateur can buy an unbacked yearling or 2 year old, give it the basics, get it jumping enough that you can see how well it jumps, and sell it as a 3 or 4 yo.

You won't lose your amateur status.

You probably won't make a lot of money, but you can at least offset soem of your riding costs.

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

Gold dust, do you mean that there IS a market for the greenie, as nycjumper suggested? Or not? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point was, she wanted to see the horse started Under Saddle. To me, that means broke and walk trot cantering. Most probably prefer to see them even started over fences and - no -free jumping does not count. So, in a nutshell, that is why most babies are not at a prime market until they are started.

[nycjumper]

GD - when I say semi-greenie, I mean a horse who is comforable under saddle & who has seen a fence or two before.

I actually don't think the breeders have the time/inclination (even the bulk ones) to start. My idea is for a middle ground btwn the breeders & the buyers.

By my calculations - the average price for a well bred foal is about 7K (from perusing all your websites).

By my experience - the average price for a made h/j with a *decent* show record is 50K. And for a really good show record, 6 figures & up.

There seems to be a lot of room between those two figures no? Add up the costs of lets say a year of training & some shows & I still think there is a profit margin to be had for the center & a bargin to be had for the ammies.

And wouldn't trainers love to be able to take their students to a regional training facility and have Annie Ammie try out 9 or 10 horses at once instead of having to waste time/money driving all over to find one or two prospects?

And wouldn't Annie Ammie love buying a fancy horse for 25K or so?

And wouldn't Barb/Bob Breeder love to have a guaranteed buyer for the babies & a guarantee that those fancy babies would be out on the show circuit?

Seems like a win, win, win situation for everyone. I know it sounds too simple but I think it really is doable.

[MsHunter]

but remember nycjumper I am sure Golddust will agree MOST H/J trainers really like BAY BOYS
over 16 hands. Chestnut mares are usually not even considered unless they have a show record and are proven (kiss of death to breed one of those) hence my very fancy one is home, and I will start her next month and we will get her to the shows before even considering thinking she will get sold.

They have to be quiet, they have to have excellent ground manners, they have to load, ship, clip, stand for farrier, they have to be attractive, move well and finally most importantly, there isn't MUCH middle ground to me between 15K and 50K. They are either worth NOTHING or EVERYTHING depending on how the jump the jumps.. That IS the hunter market.

AND 3ft 6 jumpers are a dime a dozen can't even sell one now unless it is REALLY cheap, and lets face it, a baby is jumping the big sticks until it is MUCH older.


So, you have to be patient, and you have to have room, turnout, and your own place in my mind to make it affordable and profitable in the end.

You also have to know how to weed out and sell the ones that won't be more than horses early on (many of them).

Or, do what we do and show them on the line. Every one likes a winner and they like to buy the winner. Last year we turned down 100,000 for a yearling (well not me, but my customer),
trust me, I would have wrapped him up and hand delivered him for that price without looking back!

[LLDM]

Gold Dust - I do everything you are saying. I start my own, have a GOOD trainer come in one a week to work on me and my youngsters. I have, in the last couple of years, been starting my own undersaddle myself. In no way do I have the money to keep a trainer in house. I have been trying various avenues to get my horses out to "be seen". Honest to god, I can't do it all myself.

The issue I have with the Hunter market is that it is very tough to crack. Frankly, most hunter referals to my farm want a cut. For just an introduction that results in a sale, no work on my behalf or the buyer's. Now I get that this is acceptable in your market. But I have a real problem with people making money on my horses that add no value at all to the horse or for the buyer. In my mind, this just drives prices up for no good reason.

I do know the hunter market (it was my first love). The hunters are VERY specific in their requirements. I may recognize real hunter potential in some of my youngsters, but I haven't figured out how to get them in front of the right people without spending a fortune.

I will say it again. We need classes that are specificly for young prospects. I now there are some on the books, but they are rarely held. Even so, I don't want my young WB's jumping three foot or higher (regulary or often enough to show well) at three years old. That is too high too young for a slow maturing horse. They will have to hold up for a long time. I WILL NOT ruin them for a quick sale.

So, IMHO there are two things you can do to help.

One, find 5 or 6 breeders who you think do a nice job and are interested in your market. Educate them on what you look for in a Hunter; movement, jumping style, temperment, manners, etc. Then check in now and again or ask them to call you if it looks like they have something. Pick a breed registry you like and call them, or attend a local inspection (that's where we are). Where are you BTW? Hunter people are hard to find if you don't know who's who.

Two, send your best students (any age) who ride better than the horses they can afford to those breeders. If they will ride for free, I will provide them with appropriate, nice, green horses to ride. If they will show them, I will hual to shows for them. I will ask that they help out a little, help prep for shows, show up when they say they will and the like. I will even split entry fees with them. But I won't break their ami status. Heck I may even haul my horses to your barn for lessons with you.

That's how WE solve the problem. Breeders can't do it alone. For everyone to get what they need, it has to be solved together.

BTW - I can't even afford to have mucking help. I do it all myself, but I can make much better babies like that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Or, do what we do and show them on the line. Every one likes a winner and they like to buy the winner. Last year we turned down 100,000 for a yearling (well not me, but my customer), <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, I agree. That yearling would have been wrapped and hand delivered by me, within the hour (of course AFTER the check had cleared!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

nycjumper ... ah! Looks good on paper, right? There's an old saying ... if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

[eurofoal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
They have to be quiet, they have to have excellent ground manners, they have to load, ship, clip, stand for farrier, they have to be attractive, move well and finally most importantly, there isn't MUCH middle ground to me between 15K and 50K. They are either worth NOTHING or EVERYTHING depending on how the jump the jumps.. That IS the hunter market.

AND 3ft 6 jumpers are a dime a dozen can't even sell one now unless it is REALLY cheap, and lets face it, a baby is jumping the big sticks until it is MUCH older.


So, you have to be patient, and you have to have room, turnout, and your own place in my mind to make it affordable and profitable in the end.

You also have to know how to weed out and sell the ones that won't be more than horses early on (many of them).

! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MS Hunter, I always seem to agree with what you have to say!

I would carry this explanation of what sells vs. breeders problems with the following solution:

Breed the best you can-- Remove the rose-colored glasses-- QUICKLY weed out the mares that don't produce what you're looking for or the foals that weren't as good as you had hoped.
Keep only as many (good/very very good) horses as you can afford to bring along. Meaning, plan on spending lots of time and money on any one horsey. Hopefully, you can do most of the work yourself, keep the costs down, use creative solutions (like the partnerships OM is utilizing, or the working students that I use), etc.

What I see in my neck of the woods (San Diego/Orange County/Greater LA)-- is that the wb breeders like me (and including me) are scaling DOWN. We're breeding less, selling quicker, pricing lower. Not 3-5 mares a year (or more), but a mare or two every season or two. Our favorite mares-- well chosen stallions-- lots of luck and plenty of money. I am selling off ALL my broodmares (feel free to check my web site if you're looking, hint hint), and keeping my PSG mare, and some assortment of young (female) horses. I know I can ALWAYS breed more horses, and, by keeping riding horses that I breed instead of broodmares that I ride, the pressure is off to breed every single year. I can spend the time and money developing the young horses that I do have-- daily riding, quality training, lots of time to teach to clip and load, take a trail ride or two.

So, my observations are that the 2 mare average for breeders WORKS-- it works in Europe, it works here in the USA, because the breeder can actually spend the time to develop the quality horse that he or she has produced.

For most of us-- Downsizing is the answer!

[MsHunter]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Eurofoal and I always agree with you!
Hint Hint I am trying to GIVE away a good producer and NO LUCK! People want pictures, this that and everything. I have no time!

I want to keep the remaining 3 that I have and eventually that will be 2.

We just sold our half of an investment pony, and will sell the yearling that we have.

We have a fancy 2 yr old pony and a fancy 2 year old filly coming up the pike and we want to invest in their showing. I have to downsize too to be able to do right by the others and take them along at the shows.

I also am the lucky recipient of a lease mare that is being bred to Argosy and I am very excited about that one, which puts the rush on
finding a home for the above mentioned mare.

Tomorrow we are off to a futurity in PA to horse show. We are taking a Graf Rossini S
as it's very first show. I hope she handles the stress of her first show being a futurity!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I think if you look at most of the breeders that are on this forum, you will find that the statements by trainers that people only want started horses are not correct. I sell to Dressage people, Hunter/Jumper people, everters, etc. They DO buy foals. Every breeder I know sells almost every youngster as foals, or yearlings. The problem is that the one or 2 left over for one reason or another do need to be started. I have one 4 year old still for sale. He has not been broke due to the only person locally I trust to start him correctly deciding she wanted a human baby http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and has not been able to ride. So I wait, and hope I have the funds to send him to her when she is ready. They ALL will sell with 60 days undersaddle, but by the time you get them to that age, your profit margin is gone without a big show record. It is not worth it to the breeders to take a chance on the one or 2 older guys going for big bucks with a big investment. It is far better to sell those at cost to make room for more babies that DO sell. The older guys take too much time that we just don't have as breeders.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
Breeders can't do it alone. For everyone to get what they need, it has to be solved together. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Comments like this really get me cooking; together we can do anything. Pulling together, encouraging each other, exchanging ideas, spring-boarding off of each others' experience and expertise.

THIS is the way to build something strong and lasting. Well done LLDM. And again, Well Done Gold Dust for entering the fray and speaking your mind!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
They DO buy foals. Every breeder I know sells almost every youngster as foals, or yearlings. The problem is that the one or 2 left over for one reason or another do need to be started. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fairview ... yes and no. I think there are some people, probably most, that are in the category you cite above. There are SOME breeders I know, however, that can't seem to sell anything, even though as the she claims (and I agree wholeheartedly) "There's not a piece of cr@p on my property."

So there are still sales issues as well as those you cite above.

The second issue is, of course, we want the people going to Europe to STOP! and at least consider what's here first. Hence, my promotion of the dressage breed shows ... and isn't it exciting that the new eventing breed show has chosen the same format as the dressage ones.

[Gold Dust]

Of course people are buying foals. I am just saying that breeders might have an easier time selling started horses because that is a much larger market I feel. I must be a little correct or all breeders would be on here saying life is great!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Also, the $100,000 foals someone spoke of earlier are a once in a lifetime and not the norm. What is the average person spending on horses? Remember, I said average middle america. That is the larger market. Average middle america I believe is looking for started and they already know what training is going to cost. Myself, and many others look for the average income family and they already know the money invested in a baby with no way to tell until a few years, if, it will work for them. Hence looking at something they can evaluate and see if it will work. That is not possible on an unbroke baby. Can we agree on that one? In the H/J world that is a breeders #1 problem I would think.
Let me ask all you breeders here a question. If you are not selling your babies at breeding shows, is the money and time invested in going paying off in the long run? Could there be other, less expensive ways to get your babies seen and in turn keeping overhead down?
Trainers-how many of you have a had a new client bring you a horse, purchased as a baby. They now realise, they could not start it and now, after a few years of inexperienced training, You are asked to fix it? This is another growing problem. Not good for breeders because who do you think some blame? Not good is it. :mad
Yes, lets help each other. That is listening to the larger of the purchasing market. Not all these horses are selling for huge amounts and all horses will not grow up to be expensive super stars. Then, maybe a forward motion will start. Yes, no, close??

[LLDM]

Gold Dust - You have some very good and valid points. One of the things they do have in Germany and a lot of other European contries, is a much closer proximity of trainers, breeders and riders. Their breeding programs are usually older, have better data and many horseman have seen generations of the horses and what they produce. So they are much better at predicting talant in a baby for a particular discipline at and early age. Then, they get to see if they were right!

How do we do that here? IMHO that is to form smaller networks between breeders and trainers. If you see a baby, then as a yearling, two yo, on up and see how it turns out, your eye becomes more educated in picking young horses. That process will take a while. This is true for breeders too. But I know the mare and have picked the stallion for her. So I do have a better idea what I will get before you as an outsider will. I can start seeing what came from the dam and the sire and how they are meshing. So I start dragging my trainer friends over and showing them my babies early on, then again and again. They are starting to get the idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You are correct that some people who buy babies have no clue how to raise them. I beleive raising them is an art. You can ruin health and soundness and ruin attitude and confidence *OR* just the opposite. You can build healthy immune systems, confidence and willingness. The education of a good citizen starts young and continues for years while they grow up.

Some people do know how to buy babies and raise them right, but not a lot. Yet it can be done and you *can* end up with a better horse than you could otherwise afford. OR you can blow it big time. It is a gambol on any level. What you bring to the table determines how well the odds are stacked in your favor.

I do not sell babies as a rule for these reasons. But if I knew someone had the right things to bring to the table, I would. Esp. if they were interested in using the support system I have built/am building. You don't have to know everything, you just need to know what you don't know and who can help you with it (meaning the appropriate professionals). But you need people who are willing to work together and who you can trust.

For you, I would say a trusted breeder could get you great young prospects that can do and is good at the hunters. For me, I need trusted trainers to help me avoid training problems and guide me on each individual horse and his needs.

It benefits us all for these horses to do the jobs they are suited for and have talent in. For my horses that show talent for dressage, they need to go to that type of home. If I sold a yearling, for example, that we all agreed was a dressage prospect, but turned out to be happier and better as an eventer, that's okay. He needs to go be sold to an eventing person. But his basic education should allow for that. The value isn't lost, just redirected. By the time they are 4 or 5 we should all know if it is going to work and it is certainly not to late to make a career change.

A young, well bred, well conformed, well raised horse can do a number of different jobs. With a great basic education he can go to a different college and do well. This is why the networks are so important. For example, look at the Lion King - a great eventer and stallion, who was gelded and just won in the children's (or junior) hunters at Upperville! Now, he is a top of the line horse in anyone's book. But he seems to prefer the hunters (and it shows). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It is hard in any case to get the right horse matched with the right rider in the right discipline. But we, as professionals, need to be better at it in general. In my book that means a good network of known trusted professionals working together. As a breeder I can tell you what this horse is like, how he learns, what his talents and weaknesses are. I need the trainers to bring the same info about the rider/buyer to me so we can make a good match and ensure that the education of both is solid. I have a bunch of horses that could do okay as hunters, but only a few who would really excell at it. Some of them might be packers, some of them would need a rider who knew how to "bring it out in them". For example, I have a mare would has the jump, the step and the movement. She is an anlpha mare and expects you to ride with confidence, tact and compassion. She will never pack, but given a good rider, she will win. Can you find me a rider for her? That's what the network is for, IMHO.

SCFarm

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are very good points on this thread, however, as a breeder I DO know the temperament of the foals. I DO know who will be suitable for amateurs, or Junior riders, and who should really go to a professional. I can do this because I have seen so many foals, and what they develop into. I know who is sensitive, and who is laid back about everthing. I know the temperaments and trainability of the parents. I know that my mares have been sucessfully ridden/trained/shown by 12 year old kids. I also get lots of feedback from other breeders as to what my stallions are producing. Even the ones that are not following their bloodline disposition, I can see their differences at a very young age. My biggest market is repeat customers.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
but remember nycjumper I am sure Golddust will agree MOST H/J trainers really like BAY BOYS
over 16 hands. ..

They have to be quiet, they have to have excellent ground manners, they have to load, ship, clip, stand for farrier, they have to be attractive, move well and finally most importantly, there isn't MUCH middle ground to me between 15K and 50K. They are either worth NOTHING or EVERYTHING depending on how the jump the jumps.. That IS the hunter market.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, given that I have one of those (bought as a yearling, now 4): Bay, TB Gelding, over 16h, good ground manners, loads, ships, stands for the farrier (farrier comes when no one is home, and all 4 of mine stand for him without a second person), walk trot, canter, jumping small courses, quiet, has been to shows and stays calm/ laid back (this is one that will NOT need to be LTD). Long stride. Jumps 2'3" perfectly respectably- have not yet pushed the height up to see what happens to his form. Just starting to get his changes.

HOW do I reach the hunter market?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:

OK, given that I have one of those (bought as a yearling, now 4): Bay, TB Gelding, over 16h, good ground manners, loads, ships, stands for the farrier (farrier comes when no one is home, and all 4 of mine stand for him without a second person), walk trot, canter, jumping small courses, quiet, has been to shows and stays calm/ laid back (this is one that will NOT need to be LTD). Long stride. Jumps 2'3" perfectly respectably- have not yet pushed the height up to see what happens to his form. Just starting to get his changes.

HOW do I reach the hunter market? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gold Dust? Considering the above I think a phone call is in order ... sounds like something you might want to tell your clients about!

Barring that, how DOES she reach the hunter market? Is showing the only route?

[LLDM]

Gold Dust - I just went back and read this thread again. Just a quick comment on your "desired requirements list":

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I more then often have clients looking to buy. A young child or amateur adult will first tell me I want safe. Safe is something that needs to be started befor I can even put it in that catagory. Then they want breeding, conformation jumping style and so on. So, what do I look for, horses started. Build it, and they will come.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that is what most folks are looking for in the hunter market, but honestly, I'm not sure any young horse is "safe". I think my market is more the A/O's or advanced juniors who can ride better than the money they have. People like Janet, who can make up a young horse.

IMHO Adult AMIs and Children are not usually a good match for young horses, no matter how nice, unless they do have the deep pockets to pay professionals to bring them along for a number of years. But they are most likely to need a trainer to find them the right prospect, which is why the trainers can make more money by being able to find and pick out real potential for a given discipline.

That's where the risk/reward formula works in America. These are specualation horses. Trainers can add real value to these horses, some of which will work out and others that won't. The risk is mitigated by good solid training, so a horse that isn't a true hunter prospect can go on to the jumpers, eventing, etc. If the horse is quality, raised healthy and sound, etc. a career change doesn't mean lost money. Maybe break even, but with the cash to try again with one further along.

This concept does work in Europe, sine the disciplines are more closely aligned, as well as, the breeders, riders and trainers. In the US we have even more discipline options. We can make this work. The key is spreading the risk over the right people who can add value to the horse along the way.

As a trainer this system allows you to have direct access to a number of good prospects. You get to pick/keep the one that is most likely to make up to be that $100,000 hunter. The others can either be the 15K ones or go to a discpline that knows this horse is a 15K hunter, but a 35K eventer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SCFarm

[Tiki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They have to be quiet, they have to have excellent ground manners, they have to load, ship, clip, stand for farrier, they have to be attractive, move well <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, so I have 2 foals at home. One is about 6 weeks old and one is about 10 weeks old. Both are easy to catch. They lead and load and ride quietly in the trailer with no fuss. You can pick up all their feet with no fuss. They're very friendly and come right up to you and let you halter them and lead them around.

I also have 2 yearlings - same way. The yearlings also stand for the farrier and bathe. They're all also anywhere from very, very nice to WOW, look at that! movers. They're all very pretty to look at and all are very, very, very well bred.

Two are very definitely bred for dressage, and show it. The other 2 could do good dressage, but one would probably make an extremely fancy hunter and the other could easily go hunter, show jumper or eventer based on bloodlines and parent/sibling history.

So tell me how it is that I won't know anything about their dispositions or predilections until they are under saddle for a year and doing small courses. I, and other breeders, spend an incredible amount of time training these youngsters from the day they are born to be good citizens. All my trainer has to do at 3 years old is to put the saddle on them, lunge them for a couple of days to watch their reactions, and get on and ride. He absolutely loves my youngsters and they are all welcome in his barn at any time.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I am reposting this here as both threads are on similar thoughts

This is where the European trainers are way ahead of the Trainers in the US. They TRUST the bloodlines. They KNOW that certain lines are known for their rideability. They KNOW that certain lines the horses will be able to jump. The trainers in the US are so use to working with horses bred for racing, that just happen to be good hunters or jumpers, they truly believe that you can't predict these things by bloodlines. I have heard thousands of times, "who cares who its parents are, it is the horse that matters". They say this because they really believe it doesn't matter. Hopefully they will begin to see that a certain bloodline has a 90% chance of making it as a wonderful A Show Hunter with an amateur rider. The dressage trainers are better able to see this as so many of the trainers have a huge European influence behind them.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
"who cares who its parents are, it is the horse that matters". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And as I learned on this forum ... last year (??) about this time ... jumping ability is one of the MOST heritable traits.

Having said that, however, Gold Dust makes incontrovertible point:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>All of this, a must for having a great competition horse and all odds in your favor but you can not give it heart and the will to want to do this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose that is the constant unknown... and what makes working with babies a real cr@p shoot.

But you've GOT to try ... hedge your bets as much as possible, then close your eyes and go for it.

[Gold Dust]

OK I am back after a major computer crash and will read all to catch up. In reading all quickly everyone I think has come up with valid points and all may be getting an understanding in to each others minds.

Fairview, a question and asked with total respect. Can you really look at a yearling and tell me that it will guaranteed be a good mount for an amateur?

Going back to read the rest and shall return........... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Gold Dust]

I've caught up a little more and would like to answer LLDM and Janet.
Guys, IMO these are easier to sell to the hunter market then a yearling. Hence the network LLDM is trying to start up. To also answer OM's question. Yes, one start is a horse show and not necessarily bringing the horse to the show. I look at many a horse that someone walks up to me at a show and says,'I have a horse for sale you may have a client for'. There starts a network between myself and someone I have just met. If said horse is in my price range, I will go look at it. This is how I like to make contacts. Through face to face. I personally never shop on the internet. That is my personal way of doing buisness but I'm sure thousands will disagree with me. The old style way of doing buisness face to face and meeting people that way is better IMO. The internet has become something that has lost that old style one on one. I will check your website once I have met you but will not surf the net for contacts.
That is how I purchased my last warmblood MARE and yes mare. It was through someone who walked up to me at a show and told me what they had for sale. Mare gelding, bay chestnut, if it suits my client does not matter. [Hence the comment on what most H/J people look for. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif] So, LLDM and Janet, do not hesitate to have a show work in your favor that way. Start a network.Know some trainers, they not only represent themselves, they represent current and future clients. They may not be looking at that time but after you give them a card, they will remember that conversation at said show and you just may here from them in the future!
Anyone see where I am heading?

I seem to be the only trainer flapping my computer keys and I'm sure many more see things different. I may not be right or many may not agree but at least I'm trying here.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I can definitely look at a yearling and know, positively that it's amateur owner will be calling me telling me how wonderful it is when undersaddle, jumping and showing. I do however recommend that when it comes time to break them, they send them to one of my 2 friends so I know it will be done right, and they can help them get started on their horse. 45 to 60 days, w/t/c, jumping 2' mini courses ($1500.). They just must go forward and straight, and the only things the rider must know is that they must be in front of the leg, and they need to ride both sides of their bodies to help them stay balanced. I have had almost total beginners break these horses.

Occasionally I get one that I go hmmmmm, this one may be a bit difficult. I have one that fits this description now. I still think an amateur will be fine on her, but not someone used to riding a QH, or bomb proof pony

[Fairview Horse Center]

I just read your post. I could never in a million years walk up to a trainer at a horse show, and talk to them about my horse that they would love. I personally would feel like a used car salesman - pushy. I occasionally will send a video to someone that has not requested one. I will also place ads where they can see them, and include the location they can come to see the horse (stall #?). That is just me. I am not a good salesman.

[Gold Dust]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Fairview- I agree with the used car salesman and some have sounded like that but some present themselves in a very professional manner that tells me they are just looking to increase contacts the way we used to befor computers came into play. These are the ones most will stay in contact with.
You also seem to have something most breeders might want to have. That person you reccommend they send the baby to, to start. At least you don't send them out the door and on there own. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif At $750.00 a month that seems more then fair with board and training provided it only takes 2 months. I'm thinking getting them up to jumping 2' will take more then 2 months from breaking to jumping-No?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Gold Dust
It usually goes like this:

1st week, longe 15 to 20 minutes per day adding tack thru the week.

Week 2, day 1 lunge in tack and side reins, then get on, someone leads around.
day 2, lunge in tack and side reins, get on, walk and trot 5 to 10 minutes.
day 3 lunge 5 to 10 minutes, get on, walk and trot, step into canter for a few strides - probably in each direction
day 4 lunge 5 minutes, get on, walk and trot, maybe step over a few poles between standards (these are steering exercises - keeps baby from being bored, teaches them to go forward from leg, builds trust in rider), canter once or twice around (riding time 15 to 20 minutes)
The rest of week 2: continue plus maybe do a couple of canters in each direstion

week 3: continue with above, but adding an X at 6 - 12 inches (all trotting), maybe a straight pole 6 to 12 inches. (still only riding about 20 minutes)

week 4: continue above, doing 1/2 arena circles, then large, etc. Begin mini oxer 6" wide, 12" high, add 12" gates, 12" poles with flowers under, total 12" jumping efforts per day about 6 - 8

Week 5 and six, (usually ride about 4 times per week now) adding a couple jumps per day at 15 to 18", still only jumping 8 to 10 jumps

Week 7 to 8. Jumps always begin at 12" for the first time over, but build a few to 18" to 2'
We are still only jumping 12? jumps per day

[Oldenburg Mom]

Fairview,

Not to put you on the spot but, at what age is all this taking place?

From what I have read, and from what most WB breeders have told me, because of the slower growth of these guys (as opposed to the TBs) backing is at three and a half and REAL work starts at age four. So with the example you have cited above, is this an almost four year old, or four year old?

BTW, saw your website too. What a steal Tahoe is ... and how proud you must be over his DAD 3rd place. Lord, I would have been doing cartwheels, handsprings, jumping jacks ... and that point score. 1.2 behind Iron Spring ( http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) Is he registered only with AWB or is he KWPN?

[Oldenburg Mom]

Gold Dust -

Hey, just face the facts, wouldja?

You're going to HAVE to at least come to one Dressage breed show. I bet a million gazillion dollars the entire breeding board would be drooling, with their tongues hanging out to hear your comments. No joke.

Think Lexington. C'mon. We'll have a blast! (July 16th. I'm leaving really really early July 15th and will drive back on the 17th. And you can even SLEEP in the truck!!!! Whoooohooooooooo!)

The NA Selle Francais rep will be there. Christine, Sporthorse South, Castlegate. WHO ELSE?

[LLDM]

Omom - Now tell Gold Dust the truth! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif The real action at a breed show in behind the scene. When I came up and met Duc I never had time to watch the classes. But I got to see how so many of these youngsters handled themselves in stressful situations. I made up my own mind about the ones I liked! (and what they would be good at)

But I also got a very good look at the folks who brought young horses and how they handled them. I was soooo impressed with the demeaner of the owners and handlers. How they delt with worried babies and diffused potentially bad situations. I saw none of the "antics" I see sometimes at "grown-up horse" shows, when horses meltdown and riders over-react (making things worse). These breeders are competant and reassuring horse handlers who respect their youngsters and each other. This alone really impressed me.

It's not perfect (nothing is). But I did feel a little like a talent scout. It is the closest thing we have to the German system of auctions or buying trips.

Gold Dust - What about performance classes for young horses? Material, Prix Caprlli, Young Hunter U/S? Would you shop there? Would you watch the inhand classes at the same venue? I have a strange feeling you could pick out that super hunter prospect out of "dressage hack class" or the dressage test with a couple small jumps (Prix Caprlli). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That's what the Great Meadows show was all about. I think we need many more of these. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SCFarm

[Fairview Horse Center]

We usually break the youngsters as 3 year olds. They are only ridden about 20 minutes, 3 - 5 days a week. Very little lunging (usually done that by the time they are 4 weeks undersaddle). Stallions go thru the 100 day test as 3 year olds with 1st level dressage and 3' courses.

Tahoe is really awesome, as was his full brother the year before (also 3rd). Tahoe went thru some really yucky stages for a couple of years, but I can now finally pull him out to show him to someone and have him back to "WOW".

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
Omom - Now tell Gold Dust the truth! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif The real action at a breed show in behind the scenes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ohhhhhh yes. And no.

I thought Great Meadows was really good because there were so many judges. In retrospect, I could KICK myself for not entering the hunter breed class. I had no idea, however, how big or small it was going to be. And Christine could only handle one in the class. So.

But it's really ALSO about the breeders who attend. Those contacts are really invaluable... and in that respect, Gold Dust has that nailed. It's just a different venue. We just have to convince her to "come over to the dark side" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

OOPS, forgot, Tahoe has a CP with the Dutch Warmblood (NA/WPN), and is recorded with the AWS. Champion of his AWS Inspection, and I believe 3rd in the USA for that year. I have to check with the Dutch, but he may be eligible for upgrading to Register B now, as that is what we are registering the "newer versions".

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Stallions go thru the 100 day test as 3 year olds with 1st level dressage and 3' courses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 100 day test, from what I've read, really is quite valuable. Expensive, yes, but apparently the only way to go if you want to stand a WB stallion in NA. However, Duc is a prospect and I believe 3 is too young to be jumping 3'. Duc will go when he is 5 (depending upon the AH factor, of course) and we'll take the penalty points.

I believe that's what DiVinci did as well.

[carosello]

You mean 4 I think....there is only a test every other year. This year (2004) and then again in 2006. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Yup, I always get the years muddled up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Plus, if he goes as a four year old, he will NOT get a penalty.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

But it's really ALSO about the breeders who attend. Those contacts are really invaluable... and in that respect, Gold Dust has that nailed. It's just a different venue. We just have to convince her to "come over to the dark side" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMom - That's what I meant! I met all of you guys "behind the scenes" too! While not everyone was a "pro handler" in the ring, you were are pros with your youngsters!

There were poeple I knew in the stands and I kinda felt bad that I didn't talk to them but a second or two. But the folks I met for the first time - the new contacts that I sought out, were the doing a great job with their "kids" and I got to see the "real" personalities of the youngsters there. Watching how they interacted, how quickly they calmed or were reassured, told me volumes about how they were bred and raised.

SCFarm