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ponyjumper525
Nov. 4, 2010, 09:43 PM
Why is it very rarely in the show rings? I feel this is a very important release; however, not many people are taught how to do it. Any thoughts?

flyracing
Nov. 4, 2010, 10:05 PM
There's lots of topics on this if you want to search.

For discussion though, I'd like to compare these two photos. It appears that at a proper rein length for the hunter and eq ring produces a auto release that isn't really correct because then the reins are too long when the bit to elbow line is correct. Hmmm... I don't know, I much like the auto release and my horse does better when schooling with the auto. At shows he doesn't seem so sensitive to my ride (he knows I'm just there to screw him up :lol:)

Don't judge to heavily these two photos are from my first ever eq round and first ever hunter round (first for the horse too).

3'6" hunter round. Crest release.
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2717272560106566483wHplKA

3' eq round. Auto release .
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2014494680106566483zHvDzE

Coppers mom
Nov. 4, 2010, 10:21 PM
Because, like everything, it depends.

If you're riding a hunter round, and use an auto release, it's going to look like your horse needs that extra bit of control. Hunters are judged all on the horse, and the more it looks like a drunken monkey could take him out, the better.

If you're doing the Eq rounds, it may be because the horse or course don't warrant it. Also, the rest of the riders position may faulter if they use this release, so most stay conservative and go with their most solid, guaranteed to look good AND be effective position.

For jumpers, it's mostly whether it's needed or not. Some horses jump better. Some horses jump the same so why bother. And SOMETIMES, poop happens and you just grab mane and bless the gods your pony is scopey enough to make it over without your help :D

S A McKee
Nov. 4, 2010, 10:28 PM
There's lots of topics on this if you want to search.

3'6" hunter round. Crest release.
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2717272560106566483wHplKA

3' eq round. Auto release .
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2014494680106566483zHvDzE

It looks like there is a loop in the rein in the picture labeled auto release. Can't tell for sure.
An auto release maintains contact over the jump. No loop in the rein.

CBoylen
Nov. 4, 2010, 11:02 PM
The "auto release" in that picture is a function of letting go with your hand when your butt didn't leave the tack. It's nicer than hitting him in the mouth, but doesn't count as an actual release.
Even in the crest release picture if you imagine the follow through, you're in the saddle before the horse hits the ground.
A release isn't all about the hand and arm. It's about body position.
Body position influences the horse's body position. You are coming back early and shortening the arc, sitting in the middle of the horse's back, behind the motion. Your horse is jumping with his back as the lowest point of his body. These things are not coincidental.

AnotherRound
Nov. 4, 2010, 11:08 PM
I dont' use the crest release and see no reason to.

Unless you can't hold yourself up.

Each is an entirely different way of jumping. Personally, the 'auto' release is more fluid and more in tune with the horse.

Most people using the crest release I see are perched and posed over their horse, exagerating their position. I don't see how this contributes to a fluid well timed jump where both the horse and rider can accomodate complex situations.

Just my take. And I wouldn't care what the "norm" or current fad is about crest releases. They aren't useful, to me.

By the time you are jumping, you should be able to jump correctly and hold yourself correctly and not interfere with the horse. Contact over the fence through the approach, arc and landing should be fluid and consistent, not possible with a crest release, and not demonstrated with a crest release.

lucyeq
Nov. 4, 2010, 11:24 PM
I heard from someone the other day that back when, you did not jump until you could handle an automatic release (aka- steady body position in two point, really solid flatwork). The crest release seems to have been invented to give an extra level of stability or show the horse off to its best abilities. The automatic release, however, is better for keeping control, and also adds a level of finesse because it proves that you do not need your hands to keep your position. Neither is better than the other; it just depends on the situation, in my opinion.

Mukluk
Nov. 5, 2010, 12:01 AM
For whatever WEIRD reason, GM appears to be partial to the automatic release. But then what does he know?

flyracing
Nov. 5, 2010, 12:36 AM
It looks like there is a loop in the rein in the picture labeled auto release. Can't tell for sure.
An auto release maintains contact over the jump. No loop in the rein.

That was actually my point. Because of the length of rein common in the hunters, it is almost impossible to do a correct auto release. It seems one or the other has to give? That was my observation I saw I was trying to share. And yes, cboylen, the problem has since been fixed. If was my first show over fences in 4 years and the horse turned out to be a pretty good bucker on landing so I was being defensive. I didn't sit on the horse in the first photo though :)

Coppers mom
Nov. 5, 2010, 01:05 AM
By the time you are jumping, you should be able to jump correctly and hold yourself correctly and not interfere with the horse.

I think that this is a bit of wishful thinking. No one who's never jumped will be able to immediately jump correctly just because they've done flatwork. In theory, sure, everyone stays perfectly balanced and keeps a perfectly elastic contact with the mouth at all times.

But, this is real life. People mess up.

While the crest release doesn't offer as much control, it is certainly not necessary in most situations, and in some, the crest release is in fact the more appropriate.

RugBug
Nov. 5, 2010, 02:17 AM
That was actually my point. Because of the length of rein common in the hunters, it is almost impossible to do a correct auto release.

Actually, no. Your hands are thrown forward which resulted in the loop. If you hadn't thrown your hands like that, they could still be following the mouth, in a straight line, but there wouldn't be a loop in the reins.

Horse is also jumping quite flat so he's not giving you a lot to follow

findeight
Nov. 5, 2010, 12:35 PM
Actually, if you watch GM teach or ride with him? He teaches all 4 releases, long, med. and short crest release and the following hand/automatic. He also teaches when each is appropriate and how to make the correct choice. Cannot imagine how anybody could say they always use just one and never the others because each question on a course demands it's own answer, not a cookie cutter approach that is "always" the only way to go.

Neither release pictured here is correct-the crest release has the hands floating puppy dog style atop the neck and rider leaning into them with elbows cocked and butt too far out of the saddle. A correct crest release has hands 2" below the crest with knuckles pressed into the neck, elbows close to the body and a more appropriate hip angle to the size of the jump.

If you think of the automatic release as the more correct term-following hand- you can see why the second picture is also not correct, as mentioned before rider is not following the bit, just throwing the hands forward.

Have no idea why anybody would assume nobody knows or teaches the auto/following hand based on just watching a class. It is preferred to make the horse look like an easy ride in a Hunter class-with a loop in the reins and no great effort to control them on landing, which rules out an auto. And there is no need to control every step in a small, level sand ring with a fence around it and fences set in a straight line with related distances like there is on an outside course with varied terrain, like a Hunter Derby.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 5, 2010, 12:58 PM
Here is a correct example of crest release, IMO, if you look at the other pictures as well, I pretty much only use crest release, primarily because with these horses we jump very small jumps!;)

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2096878500100093741leCqcM

BAC
Nov. 5, 2010, 01:04 PM
That was actually my point. Because of the length of rein common in the hunters, it is almost impossible to do a correct auto release. It seems one or the other has to give? That was my observation I saw I was trying to share. And yes, cboylen, the problem has since been fixed. If was my first show over fences in 4 years and the horse turned out to be a pretty good bucker on landing so I was being defensive. I didn't sit on the horse in the first photo though :)

But you are not doing an "auto release" in the photo you supplied - when done correctly there would be no loop in the reins, and you would have contact with the horse's mouth in a straight line from bit to elbow. There is no reason why a hunter can't be ridden using either an auto release or a crest release.

SkipChange
Nov. 5, 2010, 01:20 PM
Personally, I can do an auto release but, honestly my current horse jumps FAR better with a crest release. I usually do a pretty generous long crest release because it works. No risk of catching them in the mouth, plenty of rein to use his head and neck over the fences.

Here's an interesting release for you. On a horse I rode years ago, not my current horse
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v181/233/87/1293060230/n1293060230_30105839_4768.jpg

Sort of an auto with light contact maintained, but there's no bend left in my elbow in order to give him enough rein. Needless to say this guy had a powerful jump and jumps in fine form pretty much regardless of your release.

Unless you're being asked to demonstrate a specific release, it's simply about allowing the horse to use himself to the best of his ability. End of story.

Nikki^
Nov. 5, 2010, 01:35 PM
Here's a picture of me doing an auto release.

Notice how I am in balance with my horse, my leg is at the girth and heel flexed. My arms are straight from elbow to bit.

Nikki^ and Kioko, Auto Release. (http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs740.snc4/64088_1579283558739_1135158665_31639904_6781623_n. jpg)

To me, it's the most advance release and the one I like to use the most. I also use the short, long and crest release depending on what we are jumping and if we are learning something new. IMO, it's important to learn and correctly use each release.

sptraining
Nov. 5, 2010, 01:36 PM
If you're riding a hunter round, and use an auto release, it's going to look like your horse needs that extra bit of control. Hunters are judged all on the horse, and the more it looks like a drunken monkey could take him out, the better.



hahaha drunken monkey!

Hunter Mom
Nov. 5, 2010, 05:22 PM
Just for my own learning, then,

This is a proper crest release...
http://merrickstudios.morephotos.com/mp_client/pictures.asp?action=viewphotos&size=fullsize&pagenum=3&id=7185038&eventid=49968&imagename=_3KH2360t.jpg

MoonWitch
Nov. 5, 2010, 10:49 PM
3'6" hunter round. Crest release.
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2717272560106566483wHplKA

3' eq round. Auto release .
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2014494680106566483zHvDzE

Where do you live that these are 3'6" & 3' jumps? Out here - these are called more 2'6"!!:cool:

smileyrileyxoxo
Nov. 6, 2010, 01:14 AM
This is just my opinion, but I find the auto release so distracting, and no offense, but kind of ugly! I guess it just goes to show how peoples opinions change based upon the timer period and how they were taught! I dunno, I just feel like the crest release is more clean looking! But, GM likes the auto so it can't be that bad haha

wanderlust
Nov. 6, 2010, 01:58 AM
This is just my opinion, but I find the auto release so distracting, and no offense, but kind of ugly! I guess it just goes to show how peoples opinions change based upon the timer period and how they were taught! I dunno, I just feel like the crest release is more clean looking! But, GM likes the auto so it can't be that bad haha You shouldn't notice a well-done auto release. Hands should start forward and low, and just move a bit forward and back to follow the head.

For what it is worth, I was admonished recently by my new trainer (BNT) for using a crest release and told in no uncertain terms to use a following hand. I find it very helpful on the round, hard-jumping horses... so much easier to let them jump up to me.

smileyrileyxoxo
Nov. 6, 2010, 11:43 PM
You shouldn't notice a well-done auto release. Hands should start forward and low, and just move a bit forward and back to follow the head.

For what it is worth, I was admonished recently by my new trainer (BNT) for using a crest release and told in no uncertain terms to use a following hand. I find it very helpful on the round, hard-jumping horses... so much easier to let them jump up to me.
hmm thats very interesting! and i will agree that on a horse like that it is much easier to use a automatic release, as when I ride one like that I most definitely do.
I guess since I've seen so many incorrectly done auto releases I have just assumed they are all ugly, but you are right when one is done correctly they are not distracting at all. haha maybe i only realize when someone is actually doing an auto release when they're doing it wrong and its noticeable! lol

wanderlust
Nov. 7, 2010, 01:14 AM
hmm thats very interesting! and i will agree that on a horse like that it is much easier to use a automatic release, as when I ride one like that I most definitely do.
I guess since I've seen so many incorrectly done auto releases I have just assumed they are all ugly, but you are right when one is done correctly they are not distracting at all. haha maybe i only realize when someone is actually doing an auto release when they're doing it wrong and its noticeable! lol
Here's a rider who uses a following hand/auto on a pretty frequent basis. Lovely rider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nezs-mKj9rQ

ideayoda
Nov. 7, 2010, 01:57 AM
Crest release was developed to allow people to jump without too much offense to the horses mouth before the riders really had the skills to do so. So, sell a horse quicker to such a rider. God forbid that one should spend hours in two point, or learn to jump with a neck strap to find the COG over fences, or jumping endless combinations from caveletti w/o stirrups. The rider's bascule is NOT the same as the horses when they do CR, it cannot be. They take off slightly early in order to have the release. And the straight line from the elbow to horse's mouth is lost. In is interesting that we went from being a country with unchallenged capriilli seat, to much more quick fixes. Unfortunately once GM released the CR monster it is impossible to put back into Pandora's box. And for those that crew up with AR, the lack of following the mouth is ugly for us. How many jump riders have the sublime equitation of Steinkraus/etc? Few, because few riders any longer progress beyond CR.

RugBug
Nov. 7, 2010, 05:17 PM
. Unfortunately once GM released the CR monster it is impossible to put back into Pandora's box.

Actually, Capt. Valdimir Littauer championed the crest release much earlier than GM. In Commonsense Horsemanship first published in 1951, when GM was 13 and prior to his winning the Medal and Maclay, Capt Littauer wrote:



"In teaching the jumping seat your first two requirements from the pupil are:

1. The rider must not abuse the horse's back by banging it or by returning to the saddle too early,
2. The rider (even a beginner) should not abuse the horse's mouth by jerking it or by not giving enough reins to enable the horse to extend his neck.

These two points are inter-related and the ability of a beginner to stay out of the saddle throughout the jump largely depends on the additional support, which he should establish by putting his hands on the crest of the neck and transferring enough weight to his hands so that they will not jump up and throw his body back into the saddle."

He goes on to explain the progression from the "crest release" (although he has given it no such name) to a true following hand. There are plenty of intermedidate steps along the way.

I get so tired of hearing GM "blamed" for the crest release like it was some short cut. It wasn't. It was just the first step along a path. It's not his, or Capt. Littauer's fault that people stopped going farther down the path.

The crest release is useful...and can often be kinder to the horse than the many ill-performed following hands out there. If the rider is in balance with the horse, why should it matter all that much what release they use as long as they properly execute one of them?

Coppers mom
Nov. 7, 2010, 11:59 PM
Crest release was developed to allow people to jump without too much offense to the horses mouth before the riders really had the skills to do so. So, sell a horse quicker to such a rider. God forbid that one should spend hours in two point, or learn to jump with a neck strap to find the COG over fences, or jumping endless combinations from caveletti w/o stirrups. The rider's bascule is NOT the same as the horses when they do CR, it cannot be. They take off slightly early in order to have the release. And the straight line from the elbow to horse's mouth is lost. In is interesting that we went from being a country with unchallenged capriilli seat, to much more quick fixes. Unfortunately once GM released the CR monster it is impossible to put back into Pandora's box. And for those that crew up with AR, the lack of following the mouth is ugly for us. How many jump riders have the sublime equitation of Steinkraus/etc? Few, because few riders any longer progress beyond CR.
Oh gag :rolleyes:

hntrjmprpro45
Nov. 8, 2010, 12:15 AM
I don't have the link but if you think the auto release is ugly just watch Beezie Madden demonstrate it. Wow is all I can say! Ludger Beerbaum is also capable of some really gorgeous releases.

Personally I use whatever I feel is appropriate at the time. Sometimes it's a long crest release, sometimes a short crest release and sometimes an auto. I also think certain horses lend themselves to certain releases (and certain riding styles in general).

SnicklefritzG
Nov. 8, 2010, 12:19 AM
As long as you get the job done, what does it really matter.

Beverley
Nov. 8, 2010, 12:43 AM
Thread subject caught my eye. Since I just posted these on a hunting thread, easy to cut and paste here.


http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1707798 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1707798)

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1797536 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1797536)

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1828302 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1828302)

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1828057 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1828057)

Really, truly, if I can do it, you can too. I am sooooo tired of seeing pics in the Chronicle of the horse's nose pulled in/head restricted due to use of crest release. IMO, you shouldn't be able to qualify for a medal class using crest release! Only EVER intended to be an intermediate step, alternative to the 'grabbing mane' we fossils were taught! For BEGINNER JUMPERS!

I will add that I had the privilege of riding with Capt. Littauer and Gordon Wright a time or two... and neither of them said squat about using any variation of crest release for any of those in the sessions. I certainly don't disagree with the notion that one should not bang horse's mouth (or back) when jumping- but honestly, many crest release pics I have seen show far worse from the crest release for the poor horse OVER EVERY FENCE than they'd get with the occasional snatch in the mouth. I would add, I fear those who rely on permanent position have not, and cannot, learn proper leg support (the old 'heels down' as it were). But then we were often required to jump w/o reins, arms extended out, to double check those legs!

Nikki^
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:11 AM
As long as you get the job done, what does it really matter.

Sigh... It's additudes like this that gives horses sore backs, mouths and makes them quit.

Coppers mom
Nov. 8, 2010, 05:10 PM
Thread subject caught my eye. Since I just posted these on a hunting thread, easy to cut and paste here.


http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1707798 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1707798)

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1797536 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1797536)

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1828302 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1828302)

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...mageID=1828057 (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=149787154&albumID=0&imageID=1828057)

Really, truly, if I can do it, you can too. I am sooooo tired of seeing pics in the Chronicle of the horse's nose pulled in/head restricted due to use of crest release. IMO, you shouldn't be able to qualify for a medal class using crest release! Only EVER intended to be an intermediate step, alternative to the 'grabbing mane' we fossils were taught! For BEGINNER JUMPERS!

I will add that I had the privilege of riding with Capt. Littauer and Gordon Wright a time or two... and neither of them said squat about using any variation of crest release for any of those in the sessions. I certainly don't disagree with the notion that one should not bang horse's mouth (or back) when jumping- but honestly, many crest release pics I have seen show far worse from the crest release for the poor horse OVER EVERY FENCE than they'd get with the occasional snatch in the mouth. I would add, I fear those who rely on permanent position have not, and cannot, learn proper leg support (the old 'heels down' as it were). But then we were often required to jump w/o reins, arms extended out, to double check those legs!
If they can't do a crest release properly, what makes you think that they could do an auto properly?! :eek:

And I do a correct crest release all the time, and my leg has been described as "phenomenal" by most everyone and their grandmother, thankyouverymuch.

Coppers mom
Nov. 8, 2010, 05:14 PM
Sigh... It's additudes like this that gives horses sore backs, mouths and makes them quit.

So, doing what works is how horses become uncomfortable? That makes absolutely no sense.

If a horse is sore, whatever you're doing is the exact opposite of working. Having attitudes like the above, where there is absolutely only one way that everyone should use no matter how skilled or poorly trained are what makes horses uncomfortable.

Seriously guys, get over yourselves and the whole "Back in the old days" deal. I promise, people back in the golden times grabbed mane or used a crest release. It's not some dirty crutch/downfall of jumping as we know it like you guys are trying to make it out to be.

Sorry, I just find these kinds of threads incredibly irritating. No one should ever jump until they can do the auto release and do at least a 4' course, and everyone starts out that way they, but they just get lazy and stick to 2'6" and the crest release. Riiight.

Madeline
Nov. 8, 2010, 05:27 PM
I am sooooo tired of seeing pics in the Chronicle of the horse's nose pulled in/head restricted due to use of crest release. IMO, you shouldn't be able to qualify for a medal class using crest release! !

Unless you want to induce a coronary, DO NOT go to the Chronicle gallery of photos of MAclay Finals. (just to the right of this screen) I saw a few auto releases, a few crest releases and a lot of no-release-at-alls.

spacytracy
Nov. 8, 2010, 05:28 PM
Can someone post some videos on how to learn the auto release?

shmon
Nov. 8, 2010, 06:01 PM
Can someone post some videos on how to learn the auto release?

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/hunter_jumper/automatic_release_041009/

ponyjumper525
Nov. 8, 2010, 06:08 PM
Sigh... It's additudes like this that gives horses sore backs, mouths and makes them quit.

agreed

RugBug
Nov. 8, 2010, 06:29 PM
Sigh... It's additudes like this that gives horses sore backs, mouths and makes them quit.

Actually, I would equate these issues with improperly done releases, crest or auto, and poor balance, lack of independent seat/hands.

Seriously, the crest release wasn't the downfall of riding. Decreases in open land, opening of the sport to more than just the affluent masses who could afford to spend their days riding and had horses from the time they were wee tots, etc are more to blame than the crest release. Bad riding is bad riding. Trying to simplify it to one cause is really myopic.

If I could work less and ride more I tell you, that auto would be within reach. I know I'm MUCH stronger when I fit in the 11 rides a week I was doing for a while. Now that I'm down to 7 or 8, I can tell. When I was only riding once a week? Boy, I sure was lucky to stay on the saint of a horse's back.

'Course, maybe I have a bad attitude. :winkgrin:

Beverley
Nov. 8, 2010, 09:36 PM
If they can't do a crest release properly, what makes you think that they could do an auto properly?! :eek:

And I do a correct crest release all the time, and my leg has been described as "phenomenal" by most everyone and their grandmother, thankyouverymuch.

Well, as to the former, one also sees folks who just 'always' have bad hands and/or bad legs and can't ever consistently learn the right way. Same sort of deal. With a clarification. What is now known as 'crest release' was only originally espoused as a temporary way to save the horse's mouth- basically the same thing as 'grabbing mane'- UNTIL rider learned and reached a certain level of proficiency. And, as we all know, even decades into you need to do one or the other now and then! And again, if I can do it, you can too.

As to the latter, well, great, and I've seen a number of riders that have decent legs w/crest release. But I see soooo many more that would topple right off if the horse burped at the wrong time. And again I will say that 'correct crest release' as a permanent fixture was never the intent! For those who spend a lifetime at 3 feet or lower, fine, it can work, but for anyone who jumps bigger fences or jumps cross country, you can't help a horse out of a tight spot with a crest release. You can with a following hand and the right body and leg balance and security. A gazillion xc eventing photos will illustrate this point.

Nikki^
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:14 PM
CoppersMom: I wasn't directing that quote to people who correctly use the crest release, etc.. I was directing it to those who do anything to get the job done even if they slam on the horse's back, mouth and are so unblanced that the horse has to do everything in it's power to not fall down.

Also, my leg is also tight as a tick, even over a 3'6 oxer. It's easy to keep your leg tight and perfect when you crest release then with an auto release.

Finally, what makes the auto release so very nice is that will enable me to get those tight turns and beat you in the jumper classes.

SkipChange
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:38 PM
If your horse turns well off your leg, an auto release over the fence isn't the only way to ensure a tight turn upon landing.

Hunters don't have tight turns to prepare for, so they often opt for the crest release if it shows off their horse's jumping form the best. Rollbacks and derbys they'll have turns and perhaps they opt for a shorter or auto release to prepare for those.

When I hear "get the job done" I think an inherent part of this statement is that the horse's mouth hasn't been jerked on and his back hasn't been plopped on. I think you should "get the job done" with whatever release is situation appropriate. I'm more likely to do some form of crest release because it keeps his front end tight and sharp but if I feel like an auto release will help me stay out of the way better that's what I'll do. My horse is still green and may jump 1.10m like he thinks its 1.60m and it's nice to have some mane to hold onto. I'm not trying to run and win every class so I'm not too concerned with having a 0 degree turn radius either at this point.

Madeline
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:54 PM
Hunters don't have tight turns to prepare for, so they often opt for the crest release if it shows off their horse's jumping form the best. .

This is the concept that I just don't get. How does jumping up on the horse's neck, landing in a heap and taking a few strides to get organized show a horse off the best? I've asked for an explanation, but all that happens is that I'm accused of being too stupid to live and trying to be intentionally obnoxious.

If someone can explain to me why and how making a horse look like he's difficult to stay on is desireable, I would appreciate it. "Just because it is and you're a dinosaur" is not an answer. I've watched a lot of horses jump a lot of fences in a lot of different disciplines, and modern show hunters is the only one where intentionally flying in the face of traditional good riding is glorified.

Please explain.

theblondejumper
Nov. 8, 2010, 10:58 PM
Finally, what makes the auto release so very nice is that will enable me to get those tight turns and beat you in the jumper classes.

Ohhhhhhh. Dems fighting words.

;)

Mukluk
Nov. 8, 2010, 11:30 PM
It seems to me that the ability to do a true automatic release requires true independence of lower body from upper body. I would assume this is what we should all strive for as riders. A beginner rider is likely not going to have that so needs to do a crest release to protect the horse who otherwise may get jerked in the mouth. As a rider becomes more advanced he/she should be able to do a proper automatic release. I will not get into which release is better when, but a good rider should be competent at both types of releases. A really good rider should not need to rely on his/her arms for support. The big test, be able to jump in correct position when you have no reins and your only contact with your horse is is lower body (no touching the horse with upper body and/or arms). If that's easy take off the stirrups. If that's easy take off the saddle. If that's easy try it on a wild mustang. If that's easy then I just don't know what else you would do- except be sure you get that on video tape and post it on you tube!!!

SnicklefritzG
Nov. 8, 2010, 11:34 PM
^^^ Yeah, like that guy in France who didn't have a costume for the "costume class" and was told to ride naked, which he did.

SkipChange
Nov. 9, 2010, 12:49 AM
Madeline--I don't think this crest release makes my horse look hard to stay on. I don't land in a heap and take 5 strides to get re-organized. I think he looks quiet and easy here and I think I look focused and ready for the next question. But if you disagree I understand--everyone has opinions.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs230.snc4/38856_1373238012993_1293060230_30947275_8327327_n. jpg (This is actually jumpers, not hunters- but I think the point remains the same)
Bless the hearts of the people that perch precariously on their horses' necks and defy gravity while flailing about their arms. But it's possible to execute a crest release and land in control of your horse.

MHM
Nov. 9, 2010, 12:56 AM
But (http://But) it's possible to execute a crest release and land in control of your horse.

Absolutely!

It's also possible to do a poor auto release and land in a heap on the horse's neck, or worse yet, slam the horse in the teeth and back.

Either release is a perfectly useful tool when used correctly.

Skipchange- nice pic! :)

sansibar
Nov. 10, 2010, 11:19 PM
I think I did an auto release today while I was practicing today. Please let me know if I am wrong on calling this automatic.

First time doing it (http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1158.snc4/150037_10150315325280314_500990313_15583571_502909 3_n.jpg)

second time (http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs989.snc4/76205_10150315325410314_500990313_15583574_4440416 _n.jpg)

Continuation of second attempt (http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1128.snc4/149092_10150315325505314_500990313_15583577_620988 3_n.jpg)

I think I am doing it correct, except that my upper body is too close to the horses neck.

JumpinBeans81
Nov. 11, 2010, 12:12 AM
This was from about 7 years ago in the younger Adult Am Hunters. I think I executed a nice auto release with the exception that the line is slightly broken...but my hand is softly following my horse's mouth here.

http://picasaweb.google.com/116025020520532016528/Yearlings9222010#5538139705794184402

Feel free to critique

magnolia73
Nov. 11, 2010, 08:22 AM
Seriously, the crest release wasn't the downfall of riding. Decreases in open land, opening of the sport to more than just the affluent masses who could afford to spend their days riding and had horses from the time they were wee tots, etc are more to blame than the crest release. Bad riding is bad riding. Trying to simplify it to one cause is really myopic.



Thanks for posting this. Good god, the horses are cared for. Who cares where the rider's hands are over a jump as long as the horse can use himself? Shoot me for grabbing mane. I'm to blame for the lack of medals at the WEG.

And kids and adults STILL ride over fences without stirrups and reins. I've seen it at one of those insidious HJ barns with lots of 2'6 riders- gymanstics, no reins, no stirrups.... happy teens, without grooms, who were nice.... on normal horses. And with a trainer..maybe in her 20's.... it must have been a vortex to the past or something?

Czar
Nov. 11, 2010, 08:59 AM
This is the concept that I just don't get. How does jumping up on the horse's neck, landing in a heap and taking a few strides to get organized show a horse off the best? I've asked for an explanation, but all that happens is that I'm accused of being too stupid to live and trying to be intentionally obnoxious.

If someone can explain to me why and how making a horse look like he's difficult to stay on is desireable, I would appreciate it. "Just because it is and you're a dinosaur" is not an answer. I've watched a lot of horses jump a lot of fences in a lot of different disciplines, and modern show hunters is the only one where intentionally flying in the face of traditional good riding is glorified.

Please explain.

Yeah, because the top hunter riders always take a few strides to get organized after a jump :rolleyes:

I don't know why it shows a horse off the best but it does. Just scroll through some of the pics taken of the First Years - you cannot deny that the horses are jumping fabulously even with a rider being too much out of the saddle for traditional purposes or using a crest release. There are top hunter riders who do use the auto release though as well; as someone else has mentioned, that is most likely what works best for that horse they are on. I can definitely see why some horses would prefer the crest release; it means absolutely no contact on the mouth & they feel the freedom to use their neck & shoulder without being touched.

At the lower levels; you will see riders who don't support their horse properly or take a few strides to get organized but I doubt very much that has anything to do with the type of release they have used. Everyone has to learn somewhere.

purplnurpl
Nov. 11, 2010, 11:25 AM
This is the concept that I just don't get. How does jumping up on the horse's neck, landing in a heap and taking a few strides to get organized show a horse off the best? I've asked for an explanation, but all that happens is that I'm accused of being too stupid to live and trying to be intentionally obnoxious.

If someone can explain to me why and how making a horse look like he's difficult to stay on is desireable, I would appreciate it. "Just because it is and you're a dinosaur" is not an answer. I've watched a lot of horses jump a lot of fences in a lot of different disciplines, and modern show hunters is the only one where intentionally flying in the face of traditional good riding is glorified.

Please explain.

;)
You are looking from the outside in.

what is happening or SUPPOSED to happen is a little different then what you are seeing.

~the horse is kept is a nice easy going rhythm. Several strides out from the fence nothing changes. Not like in jumpers and eventing where you want the horse to really gallop forward into the bit. You stay quiet, leg quiet and not bugging the horse.

~and nice strong "leg on" is given at take off to ask for a bit of push off the ground and the rider moves all contact forward as to NOT have ANY negative influence over the horse's jump. (this means not touching the mouth and possibly causing the horse not to continue their bascule forward through their back and neck)
also, often eventers and jumpers give leg in the air to keep the horse galloping on at landing. This is a no, no. You stay quiet and allow the horse to show it's natural brilliance without inturption.

~And then remaining still upon landing as to not have negative influence over the hind end or mess up the natural rhythm of these wonderful horses as they canter away.

the horse is supposed to look very easy to control and have a very lovely, lofty jump. Over higher fences riders may get jumped out of the tack which shows off even more that the horse is really using it's back and neck over the fences.

Also, ever jumped 3'6" out of a slow trot or 4' out of a slow canter? Darn hard to stay on when the horse uses itself correctly!! : )

I started off eventing.
So I learned the back seat/contact style. The horse shows little bascule because he's told NOT TO with my position.
Auto:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/purple.jpg
devensive release:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/1stTgrey.jpg


I have a hunter trainer that I clinic with. I've only had a couple of lessons but the difference in my horses jump is UNBELIEAVABLE!

I have not missed a distance and my horse clears the SJ fences now by 6". He used to just make it over with his toes.
Our rounds look really effortless now.

I highly recommend cross training with a good hunter trainer even for eventers. It really is amazing. I wish I had figured it out years ago.

ideayoda
Nov. 17, 2010, 11:02 AM
The excuse for CR is that it allows the horse not to get hit in the mouth. Well neither did starting out with a jumping strap. But that was humbling, and it took time, but in the end the rider is a better rider who is always in the center of the horse rather than the cr slightly ahead of the horse into and landing. Once CR is learned it is very difficult to get in the real center.

And from riding open horses, over jumping 6", that is a waste of their energy. In eventing it will get you hurt, and thrust upward should be efficient. The bascule should be even (take off to landing).

Neither should the rider push at the base of the fence, the horse should be going to the middle of the 'funnel' of the aids, and have developed the eye for the fence from the routined use of caveletti to Xs early on, and the use of multiple in and outs with different heights as training continues. The jumping of fences up to 4' (in trot/canter) used to be consider every day work, but the horse were not wasting extra propulsion, just giving an even bascule (which btw makes it safer as well).

findeight
Nov. 17, 2010, 11:16 AM
:sleepy:

However...since when does laying the upper body on the neck constitute a crest release?

Don't confuse a release with bad body position-they are not one and the same.

For that matter, many are not even doing a CR, just rolling their knuckles into the neck and sticking their elbows out as they stand on their toes-that is not any kind of defined release.

If you want to slam the CR at least know what it is. Hands 2 inches below the crest firmly on the neck, thumbs up with flat back, elbows tight and a strong base.
Anything else is just bad, lazy or sloppy riding. not a CR.

Coppers mom
Nov. 17, 2010, 12:21 PM
:sleepy:

However...since when does laying the upper body on the neck constitute a crest release?

Don't confuse a release with bad body position-they are not one and the same.

For that matter, many are not even doing a CR, just rolling their knuckles into the neck and sticking their elbows out as they stand on their toes-that is not any kind of defined release.

If you want to slam the CR at least know what it is. Hands 2 inches below the crest firmly on the neck, thumbs up with flat back, elbows tight and a strong base.
Anything else is just bad, lazy or sloppy riding. not a CR.
Dear God thank you for saying it.

RugBug
Nov. 17, 2010, 12:54 PM
The excuse for CR is that it allows the horse not to get hit in the mouth. Well neither did starting out with a jumping strap. But that was humbling, and it took time, but in the end the rider is a better rider who is always in the center of the horse rather than the cr slightly ahead of the horse into and landing. Once CR is learned it is very difficult to get in the real center.

A jumping strap is a forced crest release.



And from riding open horses, over jumping 6", that is a waste of their energy. In eventing it will get you hurt, and thrust upward should be efficient. The bascule should be even (take off to landing).

We aren't talking about eventing. The jump desired in one discipline is NOT the same jump desired in another. Further, in eventing, you need a horse that can jump a few different ways depending on the obstacle in from of them....sometimes round, sometimes much flatter. Granted, you're probably never really wanting the same jump we want in hunters. It's apples and oranges, really.

ponyjumper525
Nov. 29, 2010, 10:03 PM
auto release: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31279619&l=82469c2288&id=1529220295