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AmRider
Nov. 20, 2003, 10:20 PM
As a professional, I find it hard to explain to clients when and where they should tip -- i.e. grooms, regular braider at big shows who braids for parade of champions, barn manager. I charge for most of these services, not alot mind you, but I think they should be tipped on certain occasions. When they haven't been, I try to pull some extra money out of my own pocket to make sure they know they are appreciated.
Recently, I have added that "tips are not included" to the bottom of my price list after the amount I charge for these services. Is that enough of a suggestion? It is MY resposiblity to educate my customers? And should I be pulling out my own money to make sure everybody is happy?
I struggle with all of these with customers who are stepping up to the world of grooms and A-rated horse shows from the local circuit.
Any suggestions are helpful.

AmRider
Nov. 20, 2003, 10:20 PM
As a professional, I find it hard to explain to clients when and where they should tip -- i.e. grooms, regular braider at big shows who braids for parade of champions, barn manager. I charge for most of these services, not alot mind you, but I think they should be tipped on certain occasions. When they haven't been, I try to pull some extra money out of my own pocket to make sure they know they are appreciated.
Recently, I have added that "tips are not included" to the bottom of my price list after the amount I charge for these services. Is that enough of a suggestion? It is MY resposiblity to educate my customers? And should I be pulling out my own money to make sure everybody is happy?
I struggle with all of these with customers who are stepping up to the world of grooms and A-rated horse shows from the local circuit.
Any suggestions are helpful.

MHM
Nov. 20, 2003, 11:05 PM
I would compare it to filling out entries or making hotel reservations- it's your responsibilty to either educate your clients to do these things correctly, or do them yourself. I'd say a brief explanation of tipping protocol is in order the first time a new client is on groom- the notation on the bill is not enough for some people to take the hint.

Peggy
Nov. 20, 2003, 11:22 PM
IMHO, it's up to you (or a designated "barn mother") to educate them about the ways of showing, and tipping is part of that. You will be thanked not only by the people that groom and braid for you, but also anyone that ends up grooming, braiding, etc. for them down the line.

AM
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:25 AM
I actually find the expectation of tips offensive. If you are providing a service to me then I expect you to set an appropriate price and allow me to decide whether or not I want that service at that price. If you are setting your price lower than you think is appropriate for your services and expecting me to make up some imaginary difference, your compensation will never be correct.

For this poster's problem, raise your prices and pay your personnel what you want them to receive and don't worry about whether or not someone is tipping them.

Waterwatch
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:31 AM
Grooms yes, but I've never heard of tipping a braider or a barn manager after a show. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

As far as I know, a braider doesn't split their money with anyone (except the IRS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), so I don't understand the need to tip. I give our barn manager a gift during the holidays.

Barb

"May the happiest days of your past be the saddest days of your future."

Simply Christie
Nov. 21, 2003, 06:30 AM
Waterwatch,

I Completely agree! I tip our groom very well. I do not tip the braider. And yes, I give the barn manager $$ at Christmas time.

eclipse
Nov. 21, 2003, 06:33 AM
Don't have a groom, so I can't comment on tipping!! But, for braiding, I don't tip. I pay a fee & if that's not enough then the braider should raise their prices. Sorry, but I think tips are too overexpected with many services (out of the horse world as well). I provide a service at my job, but do not expect (nor ask for) a tip. I have an hourly fee, and if that's not enough then it's time to raise it.

Flame away!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"errr, ummm, oomph.....brain fart"!!

War Admiral
Nov. 21, 2003, 06:41 AM
You should definitely *not* be putting out your own money.

If you're uncomfortable raising the topic - what about presenting a (mandatory) clinic for your students on show prep? You could include "budgeting" as a part of that. "Another thing you need to include in your show budget is tipping - you should plan on tipping x for y service" and so on.

I bet your clients would really appreciate it!

______________
"No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course..."
--Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 06:46 AM
The only place I know of that tipping is expected is in the hospitality industry (hotels, restaurants, etc). IMVHO, it is inappropriate to tip those listed in the initial post on this thread. Why in the world would I tip the barn manager? Do you tip the manager at your apartment complex? Or your office manager? Doesn't make sense. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Grooms are the responsibility of the trainer to pay and feed and lodge; clients should not be expected to tip them for work they're already being paid for. Yes, they should get extra money for doing extra work at shows, but again, that's the trainer's job, not the client's. And the braider? Jeez, most clients never even meet the braider, and a tip should be given in person, to distinguish it from regular payment. Still inappropriate, IMHO. This is a person who renders a service for which they're (well) paid; a tip is not customary. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Glad I do my own work, and manage my own staff; I couldn't afford to show otherwise. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Midge
Nov. 21, 2003, 06:51 AM
As a braider, I in no way expect a tip. I base my charges on work+expenses+profit desired. I also don't charge extra at venues which are expensive to attend. The expensive venues are balanced by the places I have stayed for free with friends or places like Raleigh which is only an hour away and has fairly inexpensive camper hook-ups.

I have a couple of customers who tip regularly and a couple more who tip on occasion if their horses win something big. A new customer tipped me at the first show and I said, 'Your tip is appreciated but not required or expected.'

There is an expectation of tips for the grooms with which I do not agree. If someone goes out of their way, then by all means tip. If the trainer keeps prices exceedingly low, a tip would also be in order. I showed out af a barn that charged 15$ a day for day care. Holy cow! No one made money out of that so I tipped the groom. If I am charged 100 dollars a day in day care, I can't imagine being expected to tip on top of that.

I have never used day care in my own barn. I do, however, ask the grooms to feed my horse at night so I can get some sleep. I am not charged by the barn for this service, but I do tip the groom because he had to take the time.

budman
Nov. 21, 2003, 06:54 AM
AM and ESG: do a search about tipping grooms and you'll find out why they ought to be tipped. There was a long thread 2-3 weeks ago about it. It's a service, for crying out loud. Why would you tip the person who brings you dinner or a beer and NOT tip the person who takes care of your HORSE??????

Leader of the petition to call "trolls" "garage gnomes"
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

Darden
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:09 AM
I only tip staff at restaurants. This trend toward tipping every single person, from the Dunkin Donuts counter to a groom has gotten way, way out of hand.

At the holidays, I am very generous with gifts to those who have provided great service- Newspaper delivery, mail delivery, barn staff, hair dresser, etc. Regarding barn staff, I also provide nice gifts on their birthday.

But being told that I have to tip regularly? No way. This is just an excuse for barn owners to pay their staff less with the expectation that their clients' tips together with wages will add up to a living wage.

luckyduck
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:17 AM
Hey budman...I LOVE the way you put that!

Here I was struggling for words and wrote this HUGE long reply...and you summed it all up in a very SHORT and to the point sentence!

If you have an equine manager/groom that life can't keep going without.... TIP THEM!

Just an add since I read the post above mine.... Our equine manager makes a little under $200 a day, his "help" makes about $110 a day. They work from 4 am until about 5 PM, take care of 39 horses...and 17 boarders. They are provided with cell phones, each has an apartment, and their insurance...and I still tip them.

I feel they are paid well, and treated with the UTMOST respect. But I also feel they go above and beyond the call of service and should be recognized for it. (like boarders dropping of new stall gaurds they want hung, or new toys for their horse that have to be hung from the rafters, or calling at 4:45 to say they are stuck in traffic, could they please have their horse brought in)


www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

tommy
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:25 AM
I have always tipped the grooms. At our previous barn, although we were charged $$$ by the trainer for day care, only part of that money went to the grooms, as the trainer took a piece of everything. The grooms were over-worked and underpaid, and yet, were the caretakers of our loved horse. I am very generous. However, many other parents/kids at the same barn, did not tip at all...this knowing that the grooms were poorly compensated. I was disgusted that parents could drop $$$ at a three day A show, but not spare any money for the grooms. And often this from kids who did the least to take care their own animals.

Darden is right in the previous post, that the trainer should pay the appropriate wage to her staff. However, if you know that is not going to happen, a generous tip is the responsible thing to do.

Hopeful Hunter
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:51 AM
Isn't tipping something one should do for EXTRAORDINARY service, save wait staff? Don't get me wrong -- I do tip generously for many services, but honestly, I'm getting tired of it. Just set the fee fairly for you to make what money you need and leave it at that. I dislike the implication of control/subordination implicit in a tipping-based wage relationship, and the American awkwardness with money is another issue.

Admit it -- wouldn't it be far easier to budget if fees were fees, period? If you want to present a gift or tip in recognition of truly special service (that groom who stayed up for 3 hours at night with your horse, the braider who got to you when your regular person cancelled, the barn manager who moved your horse 8x because of your whims) please do so. But maybe let's treat these professionals AS professionals and change the balance of power here.

In most of Europe, tipping is included in bills. Which, to my mind, means that staff is being paid a base salary plus commission by the house, based on what they "sell" at dinner, so to speak. Maybe those barns that feel tipping is necessary should change their bills to the same system? Something to consider...

Sissy
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:53 AM
Let's think about this. Tips are in my mind for outstanding service. I don't have a groom but do give generous gifts at Christmas for the barn help. I don't tip the manager, I do give a present to my trainer. If I had outstanding service at a show or something I would tip, but normally at a show I feel lucky that the trainer seems to notice I'm even there with all her other students. That is not outstanding service and I don't tip for that.

Nothing could be finer than to be in Carolina!

breezymeadow
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:58 AM
Hopeful Hunter - you took the EXACT words right out of my mouth.

When I was showing, my trainer made a tremendous amount of money off of me - all which I considered well spent. However, I was only one of many clients he took to shows, & thus wasn't with me every friggin' second. I gifted him on his birthday & at Christmas - & very nicely, if I do say so. I did the same for the grooms/stable staff for our particular barn (it was a 4-barn/70-horse facility) + anyone else who did me favors over the course of the year.

The only time I ever felt obliged to tip was when the help had obviously gone above & beyond the call of duty.

"Teaching clients to tip"? I know you didn't mean it the way it sounds, but that irritates me for some reason - the same way a 20% "gratuity" is automatically added to my bill in a restaurant when service has been nothing to write home about. Sorry.

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".

CrossedWings
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:37 AM
Hopeful Hunter - You said it right!

I too am getting a little annoying with the whole idea of tipping. Each time I stop in a new place or a business I regularly drop by I notice new cups, or signs asking, "please tip." I rarely tip because A) I'm a poor student who can't afford to tip everyone and B) I'm paying a lot of money for your service already, (I assume the price includes everything you offer/do), and there is no need to tip.. (Unless as Hopeful Hunter stated, an EXTRAORDINARY service was given.)

There is WAY too much tipping happening. The hair-dresser wants a tip for trimming your hair(Their INTERAC machine even asks you of "would you like to tip?"), the coffee shop girls want a tip for making you a $4.00 coffee, and the other day I saw (on an info-mmercial) that a man, who provides trail rides through the moutains, has a sign on his ranch which states "If you enjoyed your ride, please tip the Guide." (These people pay an enormous fee for a 2 hour tourist trail ride through the mountains).

Now you should tip barn managers? Grooms? Braiders? Sorry I have a problem with this. By the time I tip everyone that everyone suggests you should, well, I'll be in serious debt! In fact it's because of all these extra "expected" expenses that I do my own braiding, my OWN grooming, and my OWN chores. At least I can AFFORD to keep my horse. I also do these things for other people; and I'll brush and blanket a customers horse if they need to leave early... I get a thank you; no tips. I don't expect tips.

All I see is, "There I did my work with a smile on my face, now give me more money for it." Set your prices to include your "tip" and be satisfied.

If everyone demanded a tip horses, training and showing wouldn't be what they are supposed to be... Before you know it show manageament will want tips for changing your adding/removing classes for you, the gate person will want a tip for opening and closing the gate for you, the judge will want a tip for judging each person, and the jump crew will require a tip for every fence you knock down... And that man standing by the side will hold out his hand for a tip when you politely ask him where the washrooms are located....

Sam Iam
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:06 AM
I too have a problem with all this tipping and the expected X-mas gift too.

I boarded at a barn once with very limited turn-out facilities and found my horse spending many a day in his stall while others seemed to always be out. I learned through the grapevine that there was an underground tipping war going. Despite the fact that all boarders were paying for turn-out for x number of days per week for x number of dollars, I quickly learned that if you weren't tipping the groom on top of it, your horse wasn't getting out. Some people were tipping hundreds of dollars a month for that increased turn-out time, extra shavings, etc. Unfortunately, that wasn't in my budget and my horse sat in his stall. I learned that the manager at the barn was well aware of this and her attitude was, please don't tip and this won't happen. Unfortunately, that didn't work, and the people that could afford it continued to tip and their horses got preferential treatment. I ultimately left.

At any rate, the board is a huge part of my monthly expenses (read, I'm not rolling in cash) and I don't exchange gifts at the holidays with anyone outside of my kids and husband. Mom and Dad and the sibs got cut-off years ago. However, I feel obligated to get a gift/tip for the barn staff, the kids' sitters and teachers, etc. because it is expected and I fear that my kids and horse will suffer because I'm perceived as some cheap-sake if I don't gift. Seems silly to be giving gifts to the barn manager, the groom, trainer, etc., but not my own parents. I haven't quite figured out how to deal with this, and please don't give me the "just make cookies and put them in a cute tin" line, because, in my experience that doesn't cut it.

At any rate I agree with those that say, paying for a service and a thank you should be adequate, but I know my list of people needing a tip and a X-mas gift is growing each year. What is the solution? I haven't figured it out.

Sincerely,
In debt every January

khobstetter
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:08 AM
First....DON'T TIP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO..IT'S OPTIONAL!!!

Now then.....it is our (the trainers) responsibility to help educate our clients..PROPERLY!! By properly I mean that they understand the reason for tipping and also the fact it's a personal choice.

In the handbook I pass out to clients who go to shows with me, I have a section that actually addresses tipping..from all perspectives!! I discuss it with them in detail and be sure they know it is absolutely optional.

I also invite them to follow one of my grooms around FOR ONE DAY at the shows and see EXACTLY what they would expect to be paid for what the grooms do...up at 4AM bathing or "deep" grooming each and every horse, walking each one till it is dry enough to put in it's stall, clipping (we try to clip 2 times a week at the shows), LOTS of arm action with the brushing, cleaning the stall and rebedding, feeding, watering, keeping the aisles clean and the trunks polished..AND picking up after the clients (ALL clients leave stuff around, even if it's coffee cups and donut wrappers).

Then being at the beck and call of the clients who need their horses NOW, finding bridles a client locked in their trunk instead of returning it to the hook, having CLEAN pads on hand for a client who drops theirs in the mud, dealing with braids a horse has a chance to rub, WALKING your horse after it has shown (probably another bath), rubbing YOUR horse down before bed time, cleaning and taking care of your tack, setting your horse up in standing wraps....being sure everything is done at the end of the day and FINALLY off to bed about 8-9PM so they can get up at 4AM and start all over again!!!

Let me tell you a GREAT story about a celebrities daughter who rode with us for a while when she was 15..she in now a GREAT trainer and instructor....

She came home with us from a horse show with 3 horses. The first day at the barn she wanted to know who would groom her horse..I told her SHE would groom the first one and the last one each day and we would help rotate her horses. SHE WAS NOT HAPPY..SHE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO PICK FEET!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

After a few months she decided she could do it JUST AS WELL AS THEY CAN and so she asked to be hired to groom at the Santa Barbara Turkey Show !! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif The agreement was she wold NOT complain and we would NOT make an exception for her-she HAD to work like the rest. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WELL!!!! It rained the whole show..it was a mess. I watched her and she trudged through the mud and slim and did her job and never complained!!!!! It was a long week, and to give her credit she was wondeful (BUT the grooms had to follow her and do some it for her too).

At the end of the week she got paid BUT when the clients started to tip her she was exstastic..she was so PROUD that clients respected what she had gone through..it didn't matter if it was $3 or $50...it was the feeling of appreciation she received for being their slave for the week...

Trust me you guys..you don't have to tip much (or at all) BUT those guys are responsible for your horses at the shows while you are off playing, showing, eating and sleeping really tight at night!!!!!

It doesn't matter what you tip....I have a "poor" client and all she can do is bring coffee to the guys in the morning with an occasional donut......MY VICTOR LOVES HER!!!!!!!!

So..chose on....just be a little smart about it...

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[This message was edited by khobstetter on Nov. 21, 2003 at 11:32 AM.]

Bumpkin
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:16 AM
I normally pay the guys at the barn $50 at Christmas, this year during the next few weeks we are going through a transition and loosing two of the wonderful barn men and getting two new ones.
I want to tip the ones leaving for the great work they did all year, but what about the new guys?
Do I just suck it up, and pay them also?
I think I probably will, because they all work so hard and are so friendly and nice to the horses.

May I add....on the other hand, I also think tipping is getting out of hand.
I really respect Midge, and I am glad she wrote her thoughts.
I never heard of tipping the braider. I don't tip the barn owners, or the shavings delivery man, or the hay delivery men..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I did tip the man who delivered my new Jaguar XKE from Illinois. I asked the company, and they said it wasn't expected, but some people do it.
This man was soooo nice and helpful to Mr Bumpkin and I, I felt he went beyond the expected, and thus deserved a tip.
JMHO of course.

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

[This message was edited by Bumpkin on Nov. 21, 2003 at 11:26 AM.]

Hunterland
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:37 AM
IMO we pay enough in barn fees for the services we are getting. It is up to barn management to pay their staff adequately. I show in Canada and I have to be honest, to the best of my knowledge tipping barn associates does not happen here. I make a point of giving special christmas gifts or birthday gifts to those who have have been helpful as token's of the appreciation I have for their efforts.

khobstetter
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:38 AM
BUMPKIN...

You are sooooooooooooooo funny..!! I love your humor sometimes and your perspective...

It is a "problem" to tip the barn guys who work out in the elements all year to take care of your horse...but you tip a guy who got paid to drive your new Jaguar across country..

Shoot honey, I would have driven it for FREE FREE FREE!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

WATCH OUT FREEWAY...HERE I COME CROSS COUNTRY IN BUMPKIN'S NEW JAG....CLEAR THE ROADS AND GET OUT OF MY WAY....YIPPEE WAHOO WOW !!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Sam Iam
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:51 AM
Knobsetter,

I think that's great that you address this issue head on with your clients and that you make it clear to them that it is optional and that their horses won't receive a lesser-degree of care as a result of not tipping.

I guess I have not had the pleasure of working with professionals in my past. I unfortunately, have never found tipping "optional" as the example outlines in my earlier post. I should also point out that while I'm not currently showing, I never had a groom at a horse show during my showing days. The care that you describe your grooms providing your clients with is more than deserving of a tip. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bumpkin
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:57 AM
The poor man who delivered the car was driving an 80 foot long moving truck, full of flashy cars.
He had to pick up a covered wagon!!!! In Cle Elum the night before he dropped off my car.
The thing was covered in snow and ice, and to get out my car, he had to get out the wagon.
Then he had to unload a Lexus sportscar, a Carrera Porsche, some other red sports vehicle and then my car.
Before he got them loaded in again...his hydrolic system exploded fluid all over and he couldn't get the other cars in!!!
Mr Bumpkin and I sat in the Home Depot parking lot waiting for poor Eric to go buy more fluid, telling people, no the wagon is not for sale, and no there is not a car show going on.

Oh and I also gave him a big Starbuck's.

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

Linny
Nov. 21, 2003, 10:04 AM
My brother is a barn worker, though not a "groom." He's been on the job there longer than any boarder has been at the barn. His pay barely covers his basic needs. There are over 40 horses in the barn and the work is hard. Part of the reason he stays is because of the appreciation of boarders. There are always some who are a PITA but many of the boarders (it's mostly adult ammys) are great to him. He really is thrilled when someone makes him cookies or a big homemade dinner.
At the holidays, many boarders give him money (always welcome http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) but he also gets food, wine and gift certificates. I doubbt he's ever gotten a tip but the kindness and friendship of many of the boarders has not gone unnoticed.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

[This message was edited by Linny on Nov. 21, 2003 at 09:59 PM.]

SED
Nov. 21, 2003, 10:08 AM
I have not had a problem tipping our groom when he comes to the show -- but that isn't very often. An extra $10 is all that I have done.

I can't imagine tipping a barn manager -- the only ones I have known are either earning a decent salary or are converted barn moms -- for whom a tip would be extremely uncomfortable for both of us. Tipping a braider is ridiculous, unless it was someone who stepped in during an emergency at great inconvenience to themselves.

My guess is that tips are expected at shows to grooms because the trainers are NOT paying them legal wages. In other words, they are being paid their regular pay, but working much longer hours. As a result, tipping is a way of getting around the minimum wage/overtime laws. By having it "paid" through tips, the trainer avoids social security/medicare, etc. and the client actually pays less than if the trainer had paid and then passed on the cost.

The problem is that tipping is a constant annoyance. How much, who, when, for what. Who wants to deal with that? No one likes that uncertainty and it breeds resentment.

As a result, I agree with the posters that tipping should be unnecessary and that trainers should pay their staff for those long hours (which are expected), and pass all or a portion of that cost along to clients in their regular fees. But be warned -- it will end up costing more than the tip if the trainer is doing it legit.

I hate presents even more. They sound great -- and I don't object to the cost. But lord the time committment! We working Moms have no time as it is. Cash presents to the grooms at Xmas is fine, and I'm happy to do that.

Midge
Nov. 21, 2003, 10:18 AM
khobstetter, No one doubts the work is HARD. The hours are long and you can bet a groom will have to make an extra trip back to the barn every time it's raining. However, they should be paid what they are worth. The customer should not have to pay a day care fee then be expected to tip someone for doing their job. In your barn, tipping is optional, but in many barns it is not.

The expectation of tipping prevents me from utilizing day care. The time it takes me to prepare Midge myself is a bit more than the time it would take me to earn that money. The big benefit for me would come in a less disruptive schedule. However, the expected tip sends the balance in the opposite direction.

TSWJB
Nov. 21, 2003, 10:45 AM
the reason that you tip waiters and waitresses at restaurants is because they are paid much less than minimum wage. and service can really vary. if a waiter is taking good care of their customers needs, then they get more tip.
if grooms and barn help got paid very little and relied on tips to get their salary up, then tipping would be very appropriate/necessary.
but customers are charged day care. if a groom takes care of say 4 horses. the trainer charges 75 day care. then 4 x 75 = 300. 300 x 6days = 1,800 a week. 1,800 x 52 weeks = 93,600 a year! even if the groom makes half and the barn makes half that is 93,600/2 = 46,800. that is a nice salary. now of course the groom does not work every week. but alot of show grooms are on the road alot. that is a pretty nice salary. i know its hard work, but i think it is the trainers ressponsiblity (by collecting these fees) to pay the grooms a good salary. if they are not being paid properly, i think the customer should demand an accounting of where their fees are going. then that way it would be left up to the customer to tip for a job well done. not the customer has to pay 75 a day and then be responsible for tipping on top of that so the poor groom can get some money to pay his bills. this is just my opinion!

Coreene
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:02 AM
Do not show now, but used to tip the groom.

Occasionally slip the guy who cleans my stall $20, and at the holidays give him a gift certificate to Target and some cash. He cried just as hard as we all did when we had to put Willem to sleep, and he is a dear, dear man.

Have tipped the people who bodyclipped Willem as well. He was so giant, I know it took them much longer to clip his big fat hairy butt (I say this with much loff) than to do the normal horse.

We also all chip in for a luncheon for the barn workers at the holidays - all the guys who feed and clean the stalls. We have lunch catered (last year it was Mexican and also Benihana, and they put the Japanese food in tortillas and were in loooove with it), and with the leftover $$ we divide it by the number of guys and buy them gift certificates to the supermarket, and do it early enough before Christmas so that they can use it for their holiday shopping.

By the way, on a separate note, do you ever think of the barn workers when you've cleaned out your husband's or boyfriend's closet, or if you have toys that your children have outgrown? Our barn workers love it.

AmRider
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:02 AM
Ok -- I had a busy morning and came back to check my topic --- WHOA!!!

KH -- Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth regarding grooms! They work SO hard and take care of our most important teammate in this sport and it should be appreciated! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As far as tipping the others I mentioned, I was thinking of "above and beyond" work, i.e. tracking down the braider at 7:00am because the client "decided" to do 8:00am eq class, schooling class, extra class, insert any other class that probably doesn't NEED braids but she insists. Or the barn manager that has changed stalls, paddocks, etc. becuase client can just tell Horsey doesn't like his playmate, neighbor, etc.--or the 10:00pm phone to check to make sure he ate ALL his dinner because client thinks he looked depressed today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif atfer she had a full lesson with no issues to suggest anything is wrong.

I'm not saying all these people should be tipped all the time. And I get annoyed for the extreme tipping expectations in the US as well. As I noted before, most of my clients are NEW to this type of service. And as with all good things, some people abuse the service with the attitude -- "well, since I'm paying for it . . ." or "I'm gonna get charged anyhow so . . ." I actually heard a little girl tell her mother in the wash stall that she didn't need to clean up after her pony because "we have grooms to do that." I immediately stopped what I was doing and explained to her AND her mother that that was NOT the case and grooms were there to HELP her but not do it FOR her and that I expected her to clean up after her own pony, do her own tack, BY HERSELF!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I like KH's approach to tackle the idea head-on and also noted that it is NOT expected but very appreciated!!! Hundreds of dollars is not the point, but keeping a happy friendly work and show environment is!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, I do pay may grooms and barn manger well for my area. But, I have done their jobs and know what they put up with day in and day out. I don't think they should have their hand out at every show, BUT I think new clients should have the tipping idea in their heads when they ask for something extra-ordinary for the 11th time at 9:00pm!!!

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:
AM and ESG: do a search about tipping grooms and you'll find out why they ought to be tipped. There was a long thread 2-3 weeks ago about it. It's a service, for crying out loud. Why would you tip the person who brings you dinner or a beer and NOT tip the person who takes care of your HORSE?????? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because that person is being PAID to take care of my horse, and does not depend on tips for part of his/her salary as do waitstaff. You don't tip your secretary or your bus driver or others whose job is to render you a service; why would you tip a groom, unless that groom had done something well above and beyond the call (taking care of your horse when sick/injured, juggling one or more of your horses at a show, cleaning tack for you, etc). In other words, you don't tip for customary service; you tip when someone does something extra, at least in the case of a groom.

Hunterland
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:23 AM
AMrider & KH,

WOW http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Your grooms aren't grooms they're babysitters! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

budman
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:26 AM
ESG, less than five years ago I took home $260 a week as a groom for a big show barn. I had no health insurance, no 401K, no benefits of any kind. I worked six days a week, of which 5 were generally at shows. Do you think that equates in any way to minimum wage in comparison to the hours I worked? Some of my clients tipped, some did not. It was always appreciated, even if it was just a cup of coffee in the morning. Those of you who have grooms know what you pay for day care. So go ahead and ask your trainer what he/she pays the grooms. You'll probably be shocked.
I loved my job, my horses, and my clients, but I quit because I had to earn a living.

Leader of the petition to call "trolls" "garage gnomes"
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

Black Market Radio
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:30 AM
What restaurants are waitstaff paid way under minimm wage? None around here, that is for sure. It's ILLEGAL. That is what minimum wage is for. And I don't like that tips are "expected" either. If the waitstaff did a good job, I tip generously. If they didn't, they don't get a tip. Oh yeah, I also worked at a restaurant for a long time so I know what I am talking about!

Also, BTW, if you are charged an automatic tip at a restaurant, you are not required to pay it. You can request to take it off the bill. We had an automatic tip at the restaurant I worked at and by law if someone asked to have it removed we had to comply.

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

TSWJB
Nov. 21, 2003, 12:33 PM
ESG, less than five years ago I took home $260 a week as a groom for a big show barn. I had no health insurance, no 401K, no benefits of any kind. I worked six days a week, of which 5 were generally at shows. Do you think that equates in any way to minimum wage in comparison to the hours I worked? Some of my clients tipped, some did not. It was always appreciated, even if it was just a cup of coffee in the morning. Those of you who have grooms know what you pay for day care. So go ahead and ask your trainer what he/she pays the grooms. You'll probably be shocked.

why are grooms so badly paid by their employers? why is it that the client should feel so badly for these poor grooms that they have to make up the difference in tips. why doesn't anyone ask the trainer for an accounting of where their fees go?
i don't understand this. it seems to me that the trainers are profiting greatly at the grooms expense. shouldn't this be the angle people should be questioning. why are grooms treated so badly by their employers?
budman: i am curious how many horses you groomed for and what was the day care charges at the facility you worked for?

budman
Nov. 21, 2003, 12:50 PM
TSWJB, I actually have no idea what the day care charges were. I would say on average I usually had between 5-7 horses, but it varied. We were perenially short staffed (maybe because the pay was so low http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif).

Leader of the petition to call "trolls" "garage gnomes"
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

Skybox
Nov. 21, 2003, 01:49 PM
Great discussion. AmRider - to respond to your original question from a client's point of view: I greatly appreciate being told clearly what the common or expected parameters are. I'm not a big fan of the tipping model in general, but I'm ok with it if I know what is expected. What drives me crazy is when I'm not sure what to do - I don't want to overpay and I don't want to stiff anyone.

For example, at my barn the day care at shows is a set price and a $5 tip is standard. Both are paid directly to the groom on the last day of the show. When going over show prices (before I went to a show), my trainer told me this right up front. So, when I'm planning for a show, I calculate the total cost including the daily tip amount. Just like when I go to dinner, I calculate the total cost including an 18 - 20% tip.

Heads up, Hearts up

Albion
Nov. 21, 2003, 02:30 PM
devildog, it is NOT illegal to pay waitstaff below minimum wage for their hourly pay. Your tips & hourly wage must add up to at least minimum wage, though (I think). I know some waitstaff who make less the $3 hour in their hourly wage, paid by the employer.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

SMKR
Nov. 21, 2003, 02:44 PM
jjson works for a major chain as a waiter..Ruby Tuesdays. He makes 2.60 an hour as his non gratuity wage. Some nites he gets great tips other....well, lets just say not a lot of people eat out on mon nites here. Last nite he was working the bar and had to unload and sort beer out back. He still got 2.60 an hour even though he was not working in an area where he could be tipped. Health benefits are availble but are capped at $5000 for a rather expensive monthly amount.He is now without ins.

Could someone please explain WHERE the day care money goes. If the grooms are not getting it who is. Maybe if we had a reasonable explanation there would be less complaining. If I am paying my trainer 100 dollars a day what happens to it. This amt has nothing to do with training, feed shavings, stall,etc etc. It is strictly for taking care of my horse. Also, please dont ask why we dont just take care of our own horse.... it is not allowed (though jjdaughter does because she enjoys it and god forbid anyone is capable of tacking up her horse but herself....).SO, trainers put on your accounting hats and breakdown what the daycare money goes to.

dcm
Nov. 21, 2003, 02:46 PM
Wow! Excellent topic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have been tossing around the idea of offering to type some sort of horse show "manual" for my dtr's trainer to hand out to her clients. She sends out general info via the mail to her show clients, but she is not all that clear on a few things and misinterpretation occurs quite frequently. If I were to do this, I would break it down first with an overview, then a section on definitions (mandatory daycare, full daycare, trainer rides, schooling, groom duties, client duties, and what is outside of these), and finish with a schedule of fees (daycare, training, schooling, grooms, transportation, and a section on tipping). I would imagine this would wind up as several pages, but it would be so convenient for all at the barn. We have many new people with our trainer for the upcoming season, add that to our trainer making a move from local statewide to A circuit zone and national shows, and we have a recipe for tons more misinterpretation.

The trainer could hand these out to her clients who wish to show. Two years ago when we first moved to her barn, she had a meeting with her boarders and show people in which she outlined fees and expectations. This year, she is so busy that she has not scheduled one at all.

Now that I have said that, I do want to add that I did tip the braiders this year at the circuit finals. They did an outstanding job all year and were at every show for us. They also handed out "awards" to each of our horses with an inexpensive gift bag of treats and grooming goodies. I also tipped the grooms (trainer says if we were happy with the job they did, then tip $x as minimum and go from there), but it varied on how much extra I or my dtr felt they did for us. Sometimes they went way out of their way, other times it seemed like we were ignored. I tipped accordingly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

TSWJB
Nov. 21, 2003, 03:12 PM
Budman: did you ever do the math?
Okay 260 a week / 6 days = 43.33 a day
43.33 a day / 5 horses = 8.67 dollars per horse per day
I really doubt the day care fees were 8.67 a day.
Lets say your trainer collected 50 a day x 5 horses = 250 a day. 250 x 6 = 1,500 a week.
That is what the trainer made off of you.
Lets assume your trainer paid hotel bill and food for you of 75 a day
75 + 43.33 = 118.33 a day. 250 – 118.33 = 131.67 a day x 6 days = 790 a week pure profit. And that’s assuming that you received a hotel room for yourself which I doubt.

What I am trying to get at is, that if the grooms are not being paid fairly and you are footing the bill, I would think that someone should be doing something about getting fair pay for grooms, not allowing the industry to take advantage of someone’s need to work.

Black Market Radio
Nov. 21, 2003, 03:13 PM
Wow, that is crazy. I made more than min wage when I was a busser, and the servers made more than I did! And I have many friends who work in the Bay Area in regular and fancy restaurants and they ALWAYS make at least min. wage. Tips don't always add up to min wage. I know the people at in and out burgers in the bay area start at $9.00 an hour!

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

budman
Nov. 21, 2003, 03:24 PM
TSWJB, that's kind of scary. No, I never really broke it down. I just think it's sad that I had to quit a job I loved because of the low salary. Now, I probably could have gotten a raise if I'd complained a lot, but not enough to cover real world bills like rent and insurance and a retirement fund. From what I hear on the boards though, SOME barns do pay their grooms well. I seriously doubt, however, that ANY grooms see or benefit from the entire amount charged for day care.

Leader of the petition to call "trolls" "garage gnomes"
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

khobstetter
Nov. 21, 2003, 03:44 PM
Hunterland...

To clarify...they really are Professionals. Victor and his staff take great pride in each and every one of our riders and horses. He is ADAMENT the horses are exceptional clean and well groomed and he makes it a personal job to help each of the clients get to the ring the same..

Trust me, this business could go on forever without me and the teaching staff but without the grooms....it's ALL over..

Does anyone remember the joke about the part of the body who is the most important...

TO MAKE IT VERY SHORT...all parts of the body tried to claim fame that if they stopped the body would have "problems"..... the bu&% hole stated that IF HE STOPPED everyone would die..!!

So, the least respected part of our body can cause the entire body to die...sort of like the Show Horse business..without the least respected part of our showing staff...the entire thing would grind to a halt!!!!

I LOVE MY GUYS....there is not enough money on this earth to pay them what they are worth... you can give a hard time to me, you can give a hard time to my clients, you can give a hard time to my staff...BUT NEVER GIVE A HARD TIME TO MY GROOMS...the skies will open up and the "storm" will come!!!!

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Molly99
Nov. 21, 2003, 04:05 PM
I have been on all sides of this issue.

I worked summers during college as a groom.

Rode with a big barn during my junior years.

And have done the billing for a few barns.

As a groom I appreciated any tips. I never expected them and ALWAYS appreciated them, but they did come in handy.

At the time I was paid $350 a week. A flat rate. No taxes taken out, so I had to budget that myself. No insurance. And a small per diem when on the road.

The barn did pay for my housing and we always had a stocked fridge on the shows with drinks.

Day care at that barn was around $50 a day. That meant the riders had to do nothing in the AM for their horse, unless they wanted to. On showing days the horse would be prepped for them per the trainers instructions and gotten ready for the ring. Someone was always at the ring to help with jumps, etc. The riders were responsible to put away at least one of their horses a day and clean tack. Now, many times they didn't put their own horse away http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or clean their own tack http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but the meaning was that they were to help when they could.

There was a more expensive day care for the horses who did not have a rider there at the show, ie, pro horses in training and a few amateur horses that the riders only came, showed, left.

The day money paid for all feed, laundry, staff housing and per diem, supplies. Owners did not have to supply anything other than tack, sheets and even then there were barn things if needed.

As an owner I appreciated the fact that I was encouraged to take the cheaper rate and do some of my own work. It really makes you appreciate the long hard hours.

Nothing worse that getting to the show at 3 AM in the freezing cold to get horses ready for the amateur to hop out the warm car and get on.

When doing the bill, I learned very quickly how much the supplies, hotel bills, etc add up. Trainers may be making some money from day fees, but when you then add in the salary of the groom, they are not making much.

I am sure that some places over charge for day care, but I would hope that their grooms are paid accordingly.

Molly99
Nov. 21, 2003, 04:11 PM
I will add, that the largest and most frequent tips came from the owners that were not there the entire time.

And I felt this was very fair. As a groom, I did not expect a tip from people that were there and helping, either with their horse or with others.

Those that just showed up or came to watch "Joe" go around the ring, seemed to give more and I think for many it had to do more with the "thanks for not making me have to do all that work" than anything else.

I will add that the trainer did encourage riders that were champ or reserve to do something for their horses groom. Not necessarily money, but something, just to let them know they appreciated the great weekend.

Our help was a mix of "college students" and mexicans. Showing horses were assigned to one groom for prepping, to keep things consistant for the horse, but who took it to the ring could change if needed. Non-showing horses were done by whomever was free (usually the rider http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

CTT
Nov. 21, 2003, 04:23 PM
I grew up with the thinking it is common politeness to tip. I guess Im a rare person if alot of people are out there who don't feel this way. I grew up with the notion that to tip is to accnolege someone's good work. I guess it depends on where you grow up and the style in which you live.

I grew up where, when we were at the apt. in NYC (years ago when we commuted to the city to go run erands)that when the door man helps you with your bags to the apt it is polite to give him something extra for that duity. I was also taught that with any help to give something nice for x-mass. I was taught that you tip more if the service was good to excelent.

People don't half to give you their best work. They can give you base level quality. Good grooms are rare and I want to make sure when I find that special groom to do all I can to ensure they stay not for the rest of the barn but for my sanity.

I grew up with the notion that I might work for my money but that money is just that and can be made over and over again. Why go buy some meaningless thing like a shirt that you have 5 just like it when everyday you run into people not in the same situation as me. Some people can't get a diffrent job in life or do that job because the money is good in their eyes. They have families and needs. Making as much as they can working long hours. Maybe Im just overly giving with money but I was blessed with what I have while others were not.

I do things without thinking. I was at a diner one time and a woman working at 11 pm after a long day. She was 8 months along. Single mother with two other children in a town where she could not afford to leave. Every penny counted to her. I spent 3 hours waiting to meet up with a friend of mine who was on rout back from Cal on his way to NY and he needed some sweaters. She made sure my cup of cofee was filled and I had a plesent time. My bill came to 25 dollars and for all the time she spent making sure I was cared for did not call for some 5 dollar tip.

Her car needed work real bad and could not afford to pay to get it fixed or make it safe for her family. I paid attention to her and at the end of the evening handed her a 100 dollar bill and a card to a mechanic and a transport company to take her car to the city to be worked on. Left a note telling her to not wory for it will be taken care of, and I left the 75 dollars from my change. She did take the car in and a bill of 500 was all it ran to fix what she would have taken her a month to save to fix. I did see the car before it left and told my mechanic to put new tires, new belts and a few other things on her car. So what it ran me money but I gave her something she was working so hard just to do. I do things like this all the time.

I tell stingey people to get over it, it is just money and if you can afford to do A and B then you can afford to loose a few bucks from time to time. GROW A HEART PEOPLE!

We make money to go to some major store to buy fancey clothing while we see people who can't even aford to pay for propane or oil to heat their homes. I told my SO when he met me that is how I am and he is going to half to cope with it. I tell him each time remember what you make in a week takes some people 5 months to make. I can forgo that nice shirt in a window I want when I look the other direction and see someone who is not as privleged as I am.

I might struggle for a horse of my own and other things but when I see someone not as fortunate as me I think to myself how having a horse is a luxury I desire and do not need.

On the topic of grooms I see so many work so hard just to make penuts and each day I hear one person who makes fun of them and acts like it is their job to cater to that person. Well the fact is for them they do it because it is what they love doing but it is not their job to be of service to you. They just do it out of the goodness of thier heart. For those people who do go ut of their way I acnolege them doing it by giving them something back in return so they can spend it the way it needs to be spent. Giving a nice gift is just a gift when that 20 you spent could have paid the watter bill for them or their phone bill.

On the topic of tipping the trainer or manager. Yah your paying money to be there but they tend to go out of their way for a few people not because it is their job but because they enjoy serving you. I have never gone a x-mass where I do not give each a bonus for their time to make me what I wanted to be. They did not half to listen to my woes of riding or give me a hand when money got tight one month and let me make it up later. They did not half to hear me cry or go to the hospital with me when I fell badly enough I needed to have my head checked out. They did not half to cover the sow bill at a show I would have liked to have done but didn't have the funds at that point to do it. They didn't half to spend the evening with my horses medicateing them and giving them love. They do not half to do crap for anyone except supply a service average of what others provide.

No one, even if you are paying for it has to do crap to make sure your horse or you is ready for that ring.

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:
ESG, less than five years ago I took home $260 a week as a groom for a big show barn. I had no health insurance, no 401K, no benefits of any kind. I worked six days a week, of which 5 were generally at shows. Do you think that equates in any way to minimum wage in comparison to the hours I worked? Some of my clients tipped, some did not. It was always appreciated, even if it was just a cup of coffee in the morning. Those of you who have grooms know what you pay for day care. So go ahead and ask your trainer what he/she pays the grooms. You'll probably be shocked.
I loved my job, my horses, and my clients, but I quit because I had to earn a living.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. No one is going to guarantee you that you're going to make a living in the horse business, or any other business. I don't have a trainer - I am one, with my own facility and staff. In addition to no 401K, no insurance (I've gotten my own, including liability insurance so that I can keep what I do have), I worked two jobs for years to support my horse habit and myself. Yes, I'm married to a wonderful man who's also a rider and now have my own facility, but I've busted my ass for years for pennies, as has everyone else in this sport. You know why? Because there's nothing I'd rather do, and I'm willing to make a substandard living because it's what I love to do. There ain't no free lunch in this world, honey; as the old Eagles song says, "Every form of refuge has its price". I'm willing to pay that price; have been doing it for seventeen years and I don't regret a moment of it. Since your priorities weren't with staying with the horse industry and you apparently weren't willing to sacrifice a good (or even decent) living to stay in it, it's fortunate that you decided to rethink your career choice.

CuriousGeorge
Nov. 21, 2003, 04:56 PM
ESG, sorry, but your logic really sucks.

Just because your grooms love their jobs and "their" horses, does not make it ok for you to pay them less than a living wage. If you truly appreciated the work of your "help", you would find a way to pay them what they are really worth.

Like Molly99, Midge, and many others who have commented, I have been both the "help" and the one served. I have learned that a happy employee is a more productive employee. Even when you love your job, if you are undercompensated, you get burned out and begin to question whether your employer really appreciates the work you do.

mayday
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:06 PM
I confess to not having read the entire thread, just the beginning and the last few posts. I always tip the groom, sometimes tip the braider tip the barn manager and workers when they do something special for me.

Years ago I tipped a barn worker who was exceptionally good and he said to me "I don't do it because you tip me."


It's not always only about money. It's just a nice way to show people that go out of their way for me and my animals that it's appreciated.

CTT
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:08 PM
Burned ohhhh such a common thing. Is that why finding good grooms or good people to work with is so hard????


When living in NY I tiped my door man,the guy who helped me get my stuff in the cab. I tip my nail tech and hair stylest. I tip the kid who brings my grocerys to the car or the guy who pumps my gass. I tip the guy eho brings my dry cleaning to my house for taking the extra time to lift the garage door and hang it on that door so it doesn't get weathered. I tip the bell hop when he brings my bags to my hotel room or the flight servide people who make sure I have my drink even when Im sleeping. I tip the mail man for bringing me stamps and putting them in my mail box for me. I tip the pore guy who had to lift my heavy bags at the airport. I tip house keeping for leaving me extra towels and tending to my room like I want it to be. Or the guy who brings me my food at 11pm at night. I tip the person who grooms my dogs or the mechanic who works on my car.

I say this because why should tipping your trainer, manager, or groom be any diffrent???

I could care less if they make 8 dollars an hour or 30. If they are good to me I wnat them to remember me. If they are polite to me and I don't feel stresse out I thalnk them for being so nice to not stress me out anymore than I already am. They don't half to do it for me but they do.

[This message was edited by CTT on Nov. 21, 2003 at 07:18 PM.]

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
ESG, sorry, but your logic really sucks.

Just because your grooms love their jobs and "their" horses, does not make it ok for you to pay them less than a living wage. If you truly appreciated the work of your "help", you would find a way to pay them what they are really worth.

Like Molly99, Midge, and many others who have commented, I have been both the "help" and the one served. I have learned that a happy employee is a more productive employee. Even when you love your job, if you are undercompensated, you get burned out and begin to question whether your employer really appreciates the work you do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're making a lot of assumptions with no information here. You don't have a clue how much I pay my grooms, or what I charge for a damn thing, so tread carefully. And I've been a groom too, as well as an underpaid and under-appreciated assistant trainer, barn manager, you name it; all for a LOT of years for a little pay. It's the price you pay for doing what you love, much like "actors" find other ways of paying the bills while they're waiting for their big break, or to make ends meet in between jobs. And excuse me, since when did grooming horses become skilled labor? Why in the world would someone expect to make what we Americans would consider a living wage mucking stalls and turning out horses? If you extrapolated on that logic, I supposed you'll start campaigning for migrant farm workers to have 401Ks and retirement funds as well as medical insurance and paid holidays. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif You're talking about basically the same skill level, so why should they get paid the same as a secretary or computer programmer or an MBA for that matter? And in case you haven't noticed, the economy went south to the point that lots of the aforementioned lost their jobs and are forced to work for "groom's wages" just to make ends meet. But I'm supposed to be required to tip a groom because he's underpaid? Shit, who isn't?

fullmoon fever
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luckyduck:
But I also feel they go above and beyond the call of service and should be recognized for it. (like boarders dropping of new stall gaurds they want hung, or new toys for their horse that have to be hung from the rafters, or calling at 4:45 to say they are stuck in traffic, could they please have their horse brought in)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a BO/BM, these are things that I do on a regular basis and get nothing extra for...nor do I expect to. I also don't get Xmas gifts and I probably make an hourly wage of about $0.02. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Founder of the Olde Farte Clique; Member of the Dented Thigh Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If it ain't tack shopping, it's a waste of time and money.

Black Market Radio
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:40 PM
My boss always gets me a Christmas gift, and I am sure she will probably get the girls something as well, but I don't expect it. I even get her something for Christmas!

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

CuriousGeorge
Nov. 21, 2003, 05:56 PM
"And excuse me, since when did grooming horses become skilled labor? Why in the world would someone expect to make what we Americans would consider a living wage mucking stalls and turning out horses?"

If that's all you think grooms do, then you are simply displaying your ignorance of showing at the upper levels.

Lauriep, buryinghill, Rudy G. Weber, where are you???

ESG, I am not talking about working students or wanna be riders. I am talking about true professional grooms, no matter what their nationality. The care of an A circuit show horse is a different skill set from being a secretary or an MBA, but I should hope that if one can afford a 6 digit show horse, one would appreciate the efforts of the person who provides its basic needs.

Molly99
Nov. 21, 2003, 06:44 PM
CG

Thank you for saying what I was thinking in a much better way than I would have.

Considering many of the horses they are caring for cost hunderds of thousands of dollars, I find it amazing to think that there are equine professionals that believe the grooms should NOT be tipped.

I am not saying that it should be mandatory, anymore than tipping for a hair cut is mandatory. But, I go to that person for a service and when I walk out of the saloon feeling like a million dollars, they deserve a little more than their set fee.

I feel the same way about those that care for my horses. Yes, they can do the basics and are paid for it, but the ones that go the extra step, I will reward, especially when I get to be the one walking out of the ring with the blue ribbon. I may have jumped the 8 jumps, but they got my horse to the ring all shiny and happy to go and jump 8 jumps for me. That is worth something to me and if I can do something to make their day better/easier all the better. Then we are all happy.

And I while I do not give the barn manager or trainer money, I do get them gifts, make sure they had lunch, etc.

I will also add that I tend to tip in many forms. Money to those that I feel would prefer money and gifts for those that I feel would prefer a gift and/or don't "need" the money as much.

Both are my way of saying thanks for going the extra mile for me and my critters. Yes, they are paid to do that job and if I didn't like their work that day, I would not do it and most likely I would be going somewhere else.

ponyjumper4
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I feel the same way about those that care for my horses. Yes, they can do the basics and are paid for it, but the ones that go the extra step, I will reward,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't recall seeing ESG say anything about never tipping. In the instance above, when they go above and beyond, that they would get tipped by her. But the expectation that they should be tipped is the issue and what I think she is referring to. I personally wouldn't tip anyone if I had any people that did any of the work on my horses (grooms, braiders, I don't care) unless they took it upon themselves to go above and beyond. I might would tip the groom occasionally, but not every time. Then again, I've also never had a groom. The only type person I've ever paid is a braider.

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Disgruntled College Student Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
QH Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
NC Clique :P

lmlacross
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luckyduck:
Our equine manager makes a little under $200 a day, his "help" makes about $110 a day... They are provided with cell phones, each has an apartment, and their insurance...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I work very hard also- for a non-profit, public service agency making just over $30K a year, which is about $920 every two weeks, NET (let's see...divide by 10...$92/day). I pay for my own gas (driving 160 miles/day), my own home, my own cell phone-- and haven't asked anyone for a tip yet. I'm not buying that anyone in a "service" postion deserves a tip- certainly, I don't believe I deserve one, and my job is definitely public service, albeit salaried.

If someone tried to educate me about "mandatory" tipping, I'd be furious (the fact that the particular folks luckyduck mentioned don't need my tips (as they make more than I do) is worth pointing out, too (though certainly, not everyone is making this much). I will tip at my own discretion, for individuals I believe go over and above the call of duty, and for the holidays. I will never tip just because it's "done"- and, at a restaurant, if you weren't a great server, you're not getting more than 15% from me. A person earns "extras" not by virtue of WHAT they do, but by how well they do it.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

[This message was edited by lmlacross on Nov. 22, 2003 at 10:34 AM.]

onelanerode
Nov. 21, 2003, 07:37 PM
I'm quite likely to get flamed up one side and down the other for saying the following, but I honestly don't care.
To imply that those who tip their equine service providers are better horse owners than those who don't is unfair, unnecessary and just plain nasty. After all, people would not post on this board if they were not here to seek information to enable them to better care for their horses.
I strongly dislike this implication that more money spent equals better care. If it all boils down to the well-being of the HORSE, then there are a lot of horses who get fed twice a day, trimmed once every two months and run barefoot in a pasture that are better cared for than a lot of A-circuit hunters.
I have neither the desire nor the financial means to show on the A circuit. I have been an A-show groom and been employed as a groom for a BNT's sales/showing barn. I know the ropes. I worked hard, and I received compliments for my work. I never got a tip from the BNT or any of her clients, nor would it have occurred to me to ask for one. I consider that tacky. Should one of her clients have wanted me to work with that client's horse above and beyond what board at that BNT's barn required, I imagine the client would have spoken to me about such services and we would have agreed on a price for them.
The difference between tipping a braider and tipping a waiter is this: I pay the braider a set fee for a set service. The waiter is paid by the establishment; I tip generously 20%+ when I feel I have received service to merit such a tip, and less if I feel my service didn't. If I do not agree with what the braider is charging for her services, I employ someone else. If my horse has rubbed out a few braids before a medal class, I'll track down the braider and pay her a little extra to rebraid, unless I think she did a crappy job, in which case I won't use her again.
I give Christmas gifts and birthday gifts and other goodies (think brownies, banana bread, etc.) on occasion, and I also pull my weight where my horses are concerned. This means on the days I go to the barn, I clean my stall, I clean and fill my water bucket, and I make sure that whatever supplements my horse gets are in generous supply. I don't mess with feed because I don't want there to be a misunderstanding about whether I fed my horse already or he still needs to be fed. Often I'll sweep the aisle of the barn or do other chores as time permits.
Bottom line is, grooms, barn managers, trainers, etc. are paid for a service they provide. If they are not happy with their compensation, they are free to leave. If I am not happy with their services, I am free to leave or dismiss them. When I find people I like, people who know their stuff and who I trust with my horse, I compensate them generously and encourage them to be open with me in regard to workload and pay. I WANT my horse's caretakers to be happy, but I have high standards. I'm not going to tip someone to entice them to provide the standard of care for which I am paying them to provide in the first place.
It is little wonder that with the trainer's fees, board, lessons, show fees, etc., etc., etc., and now tipping, that the "outside world" views equestrian sports as an exclusive, snobby, too-rich-for-my-blood lot. I wonder how many gifted riders and talented horse people cannot participate in this industry because it's so damned expensive.
I shall step off my soapbox now. But before I do, I'll add this disclaimer: I'm not targeting any one person in this tirade of mine. I'm simply expressing irritation at the expensive, exclusive nature of this sport, and at the mistaken notion that throwing money around will make everything OK.
I'm done now. Thanks for listening. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Be careful to whom you lend your shirt if you have a tendency to wear your heart upon your sleeve.

CBoylen
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I grew up with the thinking it is common politeness to tip. I guess Im a rare person if alot of people are out there who don't feel this way. I grew up with the notion that to tip is to accnolege someone's good work. I guess it depends on where you grow up and the style in which you live.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Words right out of my mouth. One tips the waitstaff, the hairdresser, the valet, the concierge, the taxi-driver, the delivery boy, and leaves money for the maid. Why on earth is your groom exempt? Break out the etiquette books, I bet a few of you are missing some other social graces http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Oh, and this is not a money issue. Tip what you CAN, but at least attempt the gesture. Good manners aren't purchased.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And excuse me, since when did grooming horses become skilled labor? Why in the world would someone expect to make what we Americans would consider a living wage mucking stalls and turning out horses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi there. I'm going to assume you're qualified to be my groom. Can you please come out every day this week from 5am-7pm? I'd like you to muck four stalls, lunge four horses, in proper footing and a proper manner until they're perfectly prepared to my purpose, and give each their proper feed, adjusted according to their condition and medication, timed appropriately, including supplements, there are only eight different things in four different combinations. Please give them IM adequan and IV legend. I'd also like you to body clip each horse and pull their manes. Please wash and groom them every day, wrap them and pack their feet. Lets make sure they look absolutely perfect and are as sound as possible. Clean sheaths and trim ears and nose and bridle path as needed. Oh, lets poultice them too. But only when you decide they need it. I have one with stitches over his hock, but I'm sure you know how to wrap that right up, it's general knowledge. You'll also need to worm them. I'm a bit paranoid, so take their temperatures and watch for any signs of illness or injury. I'm sure you'll know if you need to call the vet, and what to do until he gets there. Keep an eye on their shoes and call the farrier if necessary. I'll need you to tack each horse up with their proper equipment, including different sorts of pads and boots. I have a trunk full of different topical creams and ointments, and you need to apply the correct one as needed for anything from fungus to thrush. Oh, and when I mention a particular part of the horse, I'm not always going to point at it. Please rig up the magnetic electrical blanket properly, it hasn't been used since the previous groom left. All other blankets are used at your discresion. If I find the horses sweating we're going to have a problem. I'll let you figure out as well how to get all the horses up to the ring at the right time in the right order wearing the right equipment, everyone has their own system. They all show in different tack than they school in, by the way. You'll also have to co-ordinate with the ingate guys and the trainer. You don't mind driving the 6 horse gooseneck do you? To FL? It's only 18 hours. When we get there, you're going to need to set up stall and halves and a tack room. And unload everything. Presuming you got the horses loaded in the first place. It's unskilled labor, so you ought to be all set to go right off the bat. No previous experience required. I'll be glad to entrust my horses to you at any time, and I'm going to pay you the same amount of money as you would receive for working the drive through at McDonalds http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[This message was edited by C.Boylen on Nov. 21, 2003 at 10:22 PM.]

elizabeth
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:31 PM
A few things:
(1) I was a waitress from about 1990 'til about 1995. The minimum wage was roughly $5.50 per hour, and I was paid about $2.35 per hour. That was legal: Waitpersons in NY have a different "minimum wage" than the rest of the world, because they are expected to get tips.

(2) Vets go to school for 7 or 8-ish years, right? And many of them incur boatloads of debt to complete their graduate degrees, yes? And then they work for peanuts for several years as part of a practice to get experience. And then they might forge off on their own, and make in the ballpark of $40-80,000 a year. If you do the math with respect to what their education cost them and how many hours per week they work, perhaps one could make the argument that we should tip THEM. Yet nobody is making that argument. Why?

(3) University Professors (at the undergrad level) often make about $45,000 per year. Yet they work VERY hard, particularly as junior faculty members. These folks have graduate degrees (often multiple graduate degrees), as well. All that given, when they meet with a student after hours to accomodate the student's needs, or when they review a draft of a student's work more times than is obligatory to really help the student develop, or when they spend hours mentoring a student (which is not work that is required), should the student tip the professor? Why or why not?

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
[

[Hi there. I'm going to assume you're qualified to be my groom. Can you please come out every day this week from 5am-7pm? I'd like you to muck four stalls, lunge four horses, in proper footing and a proper manner until they're perfectly prepared to my purpose, and give each their proper feed, adjusted according to their condition and medication, timed appropriately, including supplements, there are only eight different things in four different combinations.

If you're paying someone to be out from 5AM to 7PM and only taking care of four horses, I think you're vastly overpaying. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif


Please give them IM adequan and IV legend. I'd also like you to body clip each horse and pull their manes. Please wash and groom them every day, wrap them and pack their feet. Lets make sure they look absolutely perfect and are as sound as possible. Clean sheaths and trim ears and nose and bridle path as needed. Oh, lets poultice them too. But only when you decide they need it. I have one with stitches over his hock, but I'm sure you know how to wrap that right up, it's general knowledge. You'll also need to worm them. I'm a bit paranoid, so take their temperatures and watch for any signs of illness or injury. I'm sure you'll know if you need to call the vet, and what to do until he gets there. Keep an eye on their shoes and call the farrier if necessary.

Again, 5AM to 7PM to do this? You're definitely not employing skilled labor here.

I'll need you to tack each horse up with their proper equipment, including different sorts of pads and boots. I have a trunk full of different topical creams and ointments, and you need to apply the correct one as needed for anything from fungus to thrush.

Okay, still normal grooming function. This needs specialized training? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif


Oh, and when I mention a particular part of the horse, I'm not always going to point at it. Please rig up the magnetic electrical blanket properly, it hasn't been used since the previous groom left. All other blankets are used at your discresion. If I find the horses sweating we're going to have a problem.

Oh, I see; either this person doesn't speak/read English or you don't speak Spanish, or a simple thermometer and plan of what blankets/sheets you want on each horse at what temperature should suffice.

I'll let you figure out as well how to get all the horses up to the ring at the right time in the right order wearing the right equipment, everyone has their own system. They all show in different tack than they school in, by the way.

This is information your trainer should be handling; or do you not have one? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

You'll also have to co-ordinate with the ingate guys and the trainer. You don't mind driving the 6 horse gooseneck do you? To FL? It's only 18 hours. When we get there, you're going to need to set up stall and halves and a tack room. And unload everything. Presuming you got the horses loaded in the first place. It's unskilled labor, so you ought to be all set to go right off the bat.

Again, normal groom's jobs. Your point is what?


No previous experience required.

No one ever said that. It's just that it isn't skilled labor. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif


I'll be glad to entrust my horses to you at any time, and I'm going to pay you the same amount of money as you would receive for working the drive through at McDonalds http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And you'd be right in line with everyone else. How much DO you pay per hour, by the way? Or do you add in little things like housing, transportation, etc.? With the added benefit of no taxes taken out so Juan or Guillermo can send home as much of their pay as they like? Yeah, definitely underpaid workers............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by ESG on Nov. 21, 2003 at 10:47 PM.]

CBoylen
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:48 PM
I'll attempt to simplify for you.
It boils down to a few things.
-Grooming is not unskilled labor. It's a job that requires a great deal of knowledge and practical skills, as well as experience.
-Grooms work longer hours than most people at conventional jobs. Grooming is not a part time job. It therefore deserves a living wage.
-Tipping is good manners.
-Good grooms are hard to find. They stay longer if you pay them well AND tip them.

Since you edited your post with more informative comments than "and your point?", I'll edit mine to add that I don't think you have much of a concept of what kind of hours and responsibilities a major show groom has. I'm not sure it's something that can be explained to someone without first hand experience.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[This message was edited by C.Boylen on Nov. 21, 2003 at 10:57 PM.]

Sparky22
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:


And your point is? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you TRYING to start a ruckus over this?

I have worked as a groom and you are damned skippy that I got tips. If I didn't get a good tip I didn't take care of some person's horse less, but I was always happy to do the tippers any extra favor (and still am). Same thing as a catchrider - tips were GREATLY appreciated and no matter how much I had to do I would make room for a person's horse(s) if they had been good to deal with (not just tipping either, but nice in general).

If I had a groom I would be paying them darn good money for their hard work and show them my appreciation for taking care of my precious horses.

We all know it sucks to be underpaid and underappreciated - so why make someone feel that way?

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

Policy of Truth
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:48 PM
ESG, I have nothing against you, but HOW did you miss that point!?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Sparky22
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:

_And you'd be right in line with everyone else. How much DO you pay per hour, by the way? Or do you add in little things like housing, transportation, etc.? With the added benefit of no taxes taken out so Juan or Guillermo can send home as much of their pay as they like? Yeah, definitely underpaid workers............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif _

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[/QUOTE]

That was rude - grow up.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 08:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:

_And you'd be right in line with everyone else. How much DO you pay per hour, by the way? Or do you add in little things like housing, transportation, etc.? With the added benefit of no taxes taken out so Juan or Guillermo can send home as much of their pay as they like? Yeah, definitely underpaid workers............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif _

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was rude - grow up.

--------------------------
Why? What was rude about it? Only my experience................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
I don't think you have much of a concept of what kind of hours and responsibilities a major show groom has. I'm not sure it's something that can be explained to someone without first hand experience.

.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a very definite concept of what kind of hours it takes to be a top show groom; I've been one, as I mentioned before. I simply think that tipping someone for a job they're being well compensated for is redundant, unless they've done something "above and beyond" (again, as I stated before).

Does that help?

Ineptly
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:02 PM
Go away, permatroll!

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
ESG, I have nothing against you, but HOW did you miss that point!?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What exactly do you think I'm missing? That grooming is skilled labor? If that's it, then I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. Grooming is not skilled labor; it takes experience. Skill (in the sense I use it) does not equate experience; it refers to specialized knowledge and education to perform a specific task. Computer programmers are skilled laborers, only they work with their minds rather than their hands. Nurses are skilled laborers, trained in the medical care and treatment of humans. Grooms are not skilled laborers, unless one is a vet tech or holds a CDL in addition to grooming duties. Yes, experience is required, but nothing you can go to school and learn. So no, grooming is most definitely not skilled labor, but experienced labor.

Hope that helps........................ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

CuriousGeorge
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:09 PM
Chanda, kudos for "getting it" and trying to enlighten people.

ESG, again you only display your lack of experience by thinking that taking care of 4 actively showing horses is "easy" and shouldn't take from 5am to 7pm. All I can say, where were you showing when you were a professional groom that you had it that great? I might sign up there!

"Skill (in the sense I use it) does not equate experience; it refers to specialized knowledge and education to perform a specific task."

By your own admission, then, Joe Schmoe off the street could not be a groom. By your own definition quoted above grooms ARE skilled in their tasks. Who cares whether they learned the skill directly from someone else, or went to school?

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:


And your point is? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you TRYING to start a ruckus over this?

Nope. Just expressing an opinion.


I have worked as a groom and you are damned skippy that I got tips. If I didn't get a good tip I didn't take care of some person's horse less, but I was always happy to do the tippers any extra favor (and still am). Same thing as a catchrider - tips were GREATLY appreciated and no matter how much I had to do I would make room for a person's horse(s) if they had been good to deal with (not just tipping either, but nice in general).

Very sensible on your part.

If I had a groom I would be paying them darn good money for their hard work and show them my appreciation for taking care of my precious horses.

I quite agree. I just don't think they need to be tipped in addition to being paid "darn good money". That's my only point.

We all know it sucks to be underpaid and underappreciated - so why make someone feel that way?


Then you'd better stop it. I'm certainly not doing it. My grooms get paid handsomely, thank you.........and don't expect to be tipped for just doing their jobs.
--------------------------
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sparky22
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:

_And you'd be right in line with everyone else. How much DO you pay per hour, by the way? Or do you add in little things like housing, transportation, etc.? With the added benefit of no taxes taken out so Juan or Guillermo can send home as much of their pay as they like? Yeah, definitely underpaid workers............. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif _

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was rude - grow up.

--------------------------
Why? What was rude about it? Only my experience................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheesh.. your condescending tone? Hi, my name is Kate - I work as a groom. I much prefer being called Kate over my other name which of course is Juan Gillermo Lopez. What makes you think that there are no taxes being paid out of my check? Is it because I MUST be an illegal immigrant and my dear employer (who tips me well for a job well done and is extremely nice) does not want to get caught by putting me on payroll?

Gimme a break man - grooms make horse shows tick. I hope you wouldn't treat people you may employ in the ways you imply on this thread.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Chanda, kudos for "getting it" and trying to enlighten people.

ESG, again you only display your lack of experience by thinking that taking care of 4 actively showing horses is "easy" and shouldn't take from 5am to 7pm. All I can say, where were you showing when you were a professional groom that you had it that great? I might sign up there!

"Skill (in the sense I use it) does not equate experience; it refers to specialized knowledge and education to perform a specific task."

By your own admission, then, Joe Schmoe off the street could not be a groom. By your own definition quoted above grooms ARE skilled in their tasks. Who cares whether they learned the skill directly from someone else, or went to school?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, okay........now YOU'RE the one not "getting it". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And by the way, when one says "groom", I think about a groom at home as well as at a show. Since you referred to injections, etc, that's what I thought you were talking about. And yes, show grooms do have hours such as you describe, but are definitely not on call that entire time for only four horses. Hope that clears things up a bit. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G Gordon Liddy:
Go away, permatroll!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif [big kiss] http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Ineptly
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif [big kiss] http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I learn from the best, ESG...and no one calls out those trolls and nontrolls in that beautiful way you do.

CBoylen
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
I have a very definite concept of what kind of hours it takes to be a top show groom; I've been one, as I mentioned before. I simply think that tipping someone for a job they're being well compensated for is redundant, _unless_ they've done something "above and beyond" (again, as I stated before).
Does that help?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I hope it helps you in some way to consider yourself unskilled. I can't imagine why one would want to disparage their own knowledge, but feel free. I will always consider good grooms skilled horsemen.

I don't think a former top groom would claim that four horses at a show was an easy job, or that 5-7 was beyond a normal day, but I'll suspend my disbelief.

Really, one can tip or not tip their grooms as they choose. However, the fact that there are fewer truly good grooms than there are positions should be kept in mind. Barns compete for the best of best, and certain barns that earn a reputation for not treating their help well quickly find themselves without good help.
Well-paid is one thing; well-treated is quite another.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

CTT
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:29 PM
Hey Chanda can I work for you if I ever want to be a unskilled labor groom??? Atleast I know youll treat me with respect.

So being a groom isn't even blue colar work??

CuriousGeorge
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:29 PM
"And yes, show grooms do have hours such as you describe, but are definitely not on call that entire time for only four horses. Hope that clears things up a bit."

Um you have obviously never worked for a demanding trainer or a princess rider and her family to make that comment. Or have you just missed LaurieP et. al's comments about not having TIME during the show day to eat?

Horses most definitely get injections at horse shows. Have you missed the suspension thread?!?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif While we're on that topic, let's talk about IV injections. There's this little vessel called the carotid artery that just so happens to run right alongside the jugular vein. IF you are educated in giving IV injections, you can tell which one you've hit based on what the flashback looks like. If you inject into the carotid when you want the jugular, you could kill the horse.

Like I said... if you're trusting the groom with a 6 figure horse, you better value his or her skills. Seems like skilled labor to me. *I* don't want someone with the skillset of a "migrant farm worker" giving MY horse an IV injection.

Kryswyn
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:31 PM
Okay, quick poll here:

Would you rather work for ESG and be handsomely paid and NOT receive tips?

or

Would you rather work for C.Boylen and be handsomely paid and RECEIVE tips?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif This strikes me as a no brainer, but apparently ESG doesn't get the picture.

Let's put it another way....

Would you rather work for someone who feels that any schmo off the street can be trained to do a professional groom's job?

or

Would you rather work for someone who realizes that while many can be trained to muck a stall, it takes a special person who can be a professional groom, and (here's the key) treats them like they're special??

Hmmmmmm, nope. Still a no brainer.....

Finally, ESG I don't know you and I'll take you at your word that you've done all you said and are what you are now. What you come across as is someone who still resents the crap they had to take, the long hours, the disrespect and now feels "Well, I had to slave away and starve so why shouldn't they? Which BTW is fairly common attitude. It's why young medical residents still experience the hospital version of hazing although it's been proven that making residents work bizarre shifts and w/o sleep is hazardous to patients' health. It's all because "the Good Old Boys" had to do it so so should everyone else! Patients be dammed!

C.Boylan on the other hand I know by reputation (and it is excellent). I bet she has gotten several emails from people wanting to know if she is hiring!

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Ghazzu
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
. Why in the world would someone _expect _ to make what we Americans would consider a living wage mucking stalls and turning out horses?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why on earth *shouldn't* someone doing a decent day's work expect to make enough to live on?
Why should some schmuck sitting at a desk making nebulous deals over the phone or on a computer be valued and someone who actually does honest solid *labor* not?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If you extrapolated on _that_ logic, I supposed you'll start campaigning for migrant farm workers to have 401Ks and retirement funds as well as medical insurance and paid holidays.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a good start to me.
Hey, those are the folks who are *feeding* you.
Shouldn't they make a living?
Why should they make diddly and some guy who throws a football makes millions?

I know life isn't fair, but you seem to be working off the assumption that people in certain occupations have no right to expect fair pay. Why on earth not?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G Gordon Liddy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif [big kiss] http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I learn from the best, ESG...and no one calls out those trolls and nontrolls in that beautiful way you do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Coming from a self-professed troll whom I'm not supposed to take seriously, I consider that the supreme compliment. Thank you!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ESG
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
. Why in the world would someone _expect _ to make what we Americans would consider a living wage mucking stalls and turning out horses?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why on earth *shouldn't* someone doing a decent day's work expect to make enough to live on?
Why should some schmuck sitting at a desk making nebulous deals over the phone or on a computer be valued and someone who actually does honest solid *labor* not?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If you extrapolated on _that_ logic, I supposed you'll start campaigning for migrant farm workers to have 401Ks and retirement funds as well as medical insurance and paid holidays.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a good start to me.
Hey, those are the folks who are *feeding* you.
Shouldn't they make a living?
Why should they make diddly and some guy who throws a football makes millions?

I know life isn't fair, but you seem to be working off the assumption that people in certain occupations have no right to expect fair pay. Why on earth not?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From which planet are you visiting? Greetings!

CuriousGeorge
Nov. 21, 2003, 09:43 PM
Funny, ESG, some of us were just wondering which planet you were visiting our world from? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Policy of Truth
Nov. 21, 2003, 10:47 PM
"Skill (in the sense I use it) does not equate experience; it refers to specialized knowledge and education to perform a specific task"

So, do you not have to have SPECIALIZED knowledge (re-read C. Boylen's post) to be able to "perform a specific task" as a groom?

Experience DOES mean more in the horse-world than a formal education.

And as far as your response to me, I really have an issue with THIS statement:

"Grooming is not skilled labor; it takes experience. Skill (in the sense I use it) does not equate experience; it refers to specialized knowledge and education to perform a specific task".

Are you seriously going to tell me that an education does NOT take place when a person LEARNS how to become a groom? Maybe I've misunderstood what an education actually is....I THOUGHT it had something to do with LEARNING!!

Peggy
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:28 PM
Chanda, thanks for a great post that reflects a fabulous attitude.

Sea Monkey
Nov. 21, 2003, 11:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What restaurants are waitstaff paid way under minimm wage? None around here, that is for sure. It's ILLEGAL. That is what minimum wage is for. And I don't like that tips are "expected" either. If the waitstaff did a good job, I tip generously. If they didn't, they don't get a tip. Oh yeah, I also worked at a restaurant for a long time so I know what I am talking about! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously you have no clue. (You said you were a busser) Most restaurants pay under minimum wage. Around $3.00/hr. I've done the whole waitressing thing, and it was quite nice, I averaged at about $13 an hour, not bad for a little spending money during the summer. One thing I noticed while working at a restaurant was that tips are a fine indicator of a little something called CLASS.

Of course, there are exceptions... if the waiter forgets you, cusses at you, innappropriate behavior etc then obviously they won't be working at the restaurant for long.

Oh so you were a busser, eh? Bussers make minimum wage because even though it's a generous act for the waitstaff to tip out the bussers/bartenders, they usually don't.

----
An idiot repeats his mistakes.
A smart man learns from his mistakes.
A genius learns from the mistakes of others.

starboard
Nov. 22, 2003, 05:38 AM
1. Waitstaff does not recieve minimum wage.

2. ESG you have to be one of the most obnoxious, rude and condescending people i have ever had the displeasure of reading.

Thank god nobody has to work for you.

ESG
Nov. 22, 2003, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starboard:
2. ESG you have to be one of the most obnoxious, rude and condescending people i have ever had the displeasure of reading.

That's interesting. I express opinions (always identified as such) and I'm rude and obnoxious? And condescending? Because I say tipping isn't appropriate for barn managers and braiders, and only appropriate when a groom does something above and beyond his normal duties? I realize that things have gotten a bit off track here, but that was the initial debate. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Thank god nobody has to work for you.

On the contrary - people do work for me, and ride with me too, many long term. Guess they don't think I'm rude and obnoxious. Oh, I forgot condescending............................ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MdLib
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:36 AM
Does ANYONE know who ESG is? I'm a nobody from Missouri, and even I have met people on here who I know in real life. Surely someone must know, since she has a barn in Wellington, and if we know who this person really is, hence her qualifications, maybe arguing would actually be worth it.

I know who the bigshots are on here, and where they fit into the game, so they have my respect. Until ESG-the-trainer is identified, this really isn't worth it.

CuriousGeorge
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:55 AM
Moonkitty, PT me.

Molly99
Nov. 22, 2003, 07:44 AM
Moonkitty, I was wondering the same thing, but more for the "make sure I never send a horse there."

Forget the views on tipping, etc. I am more shocked at the feeling that she would hire people off the street and seems to think so low of the people she hires to work for her.

So they are paid well, my guess is she has to since respecting them won't be keeping them around for very long.

playing cards
Nov. 22, 2003, 08:19 AM
First of all I should have known that any thread that explodes to 5 pages, the last 3 of which are useless crap, has ESG behind it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Aside from that, the reason to tip grooms is pure and simple and in the interst of the customers: the labor pool of GOOD grooms is small, and if you don't tip they will go work somewhere where the customers do tip!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Even the grooms that really love your horse (rare, right?) will leave and go where they are treated well and paid the best. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Most barns pay the same "base" rate for a week's work depending on the groom's experience, but if you don't think the grooms talk amongst themselves about what they get paid and what tips are like at a potential workplace, you are sadly in the dark. 99% of the time, the groom's choice of employ is purely a monetary decision. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif $400/wk at both places, "oh, the customers tip really well there? Okay here I come." I've seen it happen many times.There is no career investment for a groom like there is for an assistant trainer or even a barn manager. Pancho (that was his name right?) would have stayed at Plain Bay all those years if he hadn't been treated well by the customers.

It is in the customers' own interests to tip.

cbv
Nov. 22, 2003, 08:27 AM
Have not read all replies so forgive me for repeating or missing an important point, but here are some thoughts:

To the original poster, educating you clients would be very helpful...I once sent a horse for training to a nice hunter/jumper barn that belonged to aquaintances I knew from carriage driving...I knew nothing about showing/grooms/tips. Had always been a simple lesson kid and as an adult kept the beasties at home and did not show.

Went to some local shows with the trainer and I now realize some comments made in front of me were meant as hints to get me to tip a barn employee that went along to help. At the time the comments went completely over my head, and of course now I am terribly embarassed at my ignorance, but it was not 'willful' ignorance, just a total lack of experience in that world.

LOL, Lucky Duck's comments struck me cause her barn manager and staff make more than I do...and just for the record, in my work I often am up and out before dawn and work outside long days in all types of inclement weather. I keep my horse at home and I don't show, so don't think I am throwing money here and yon, but I do have my youngster in training board for a few months.

I love the staff at the training facility and would like to show my appreciation somehow. But the cost of the things I have considered don't begin to reach what some here pay. The problem is the expectations...if I know I can't afford the tip in addition to the cost of the meal at a fancy restaurant, I don't go. If I don't know what is expected (and I would honestly prefer it just be part of the stated costs) how do I make these decisions? I decided to send my filly to this barn because I could afford the stated training board, and known associated expenses (worming, fall shots, shoes, etc.) and I like the trainer and staff...I did not figure in tips (obviously I learned my lesson about show grooms but did not know it extended to all barn staff at home...and again this is not being willfully ignorant, except on this board I have never been told or had it 'hinted' that this is expected).

Unfortunately, even after reading a few pages of this thread I am somewhat clueless since the range in what some staff expect, and what some owners tip, seems to be all over the place. Having some standard is particularly important if it is tied to the quality of care provided...and I agree totally that you should be willing pay for good quality...but when one is on a budget you need to know what the cost is up front.

[This message was edited by cbv on Nov. 22, 2003 at 10:36 AM.]

[This message was edited by cbv on Nov. 22, 2003 at 10:37 AM.]

[This message was edited by cbv on Nov. 22, 2003 at 11:15 AM.]

Tha Ridge
Nov. 22, 2003, 09:05 AM
I don't see a point in tipping a barn manager or a braider (especially the braider), but we've always tipped my groom at shows. It's never even been questioned as to whether or not we would. But, hey, it's beginning to appear that not that many people appreciate grooms the same way.

- L.

Je suis un salamander. J'entrerai dans le feu mais je ne brûlerai pas.

Downpour
Nov. 22, 2003, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I grew up with the thinking it is common politeness to tip. I guess Im a rare person if alot of people are out there who don't feel this way. I grew up with the notion that to tip is to accnolege someone's good work. I guess it depends on where you grow up and the style in which you live.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Words right out of my mouth. One tips the waitstaff, the hairdresser, the valet, the concierge, the taxi-driver, the delivery boy, and leaves money for the maid. Why on earth is your groom exempt? Break out the etiquette books, I bet a few of you are missing some other social graces http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Oh, and this is not a money issue. Tip what you CAN, but at least attempt the gesture. Good manners aren't purchased.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like other members on this board I am a working student. I play the part of both rider and groom. For my grooming/tacking up services I recieve board for one horse and enough money to pay for my basic expenses. For riding; nothing (as expected when one wishes to maintain their amateur status).

I work hard and late most of the time on weekdays, and shows are even more hectic. It involves getting up before the sun is up, braiding a few horses first, cleaning all the stalls (numbers depend on how many clients, including my trainers 3-4, have come). All horses must be fed and watered. I usually recieve intstructions on which horse or horses are to be ready and waiting, tacked up for trainer and myself to hack first. There is often several for my trainer, and several for myself (from clients horses, to my own horse, to some of my trainers horses). By the time showing gets around I'm running back and forth, tacking and untacking, switching bridles, giving final polishes, taking one horse and trading for another, + getting on clients or my own warming up again (and warming client up after) and then heading off to the ring to show myself! By the end of the day YOU ARE EXHAUSTED! I've yet to recieve a tip ever. I have been brought home-baking, coffee, breakfast, and been taken out to dinner (or even offered accomodation with some of the clients to cut my own expenses down). It has been enough for me. I do not expect a tip, but hey, if someones wishses to give me one I will not turn it down.

For my monthly income, I make a whopping $300/month (+ board for my horse). My gas expenses (going ONLY too and from work in a cheap but economical vehicle) eat up $200. The remaining $100 has to pay for a required weekly lesson (Which, BTW, my trainer reduced for me - I pay much less than most do - but only because I work a lot!). On occassion, IF, I drive VERY SLOWLY (90 km/h) too and from work each day I can conserve enough gas to have an extra $20-30 each month for myself. Now this extra has to pay for any clothing I need; just so that, when my jeans have more holes than jean on them, I can afford to buy a new pair. I usually only enter a shopping mall every 6 months and am able to buy 1-2 pair of jeans which need to last another 6 months!

Fortunately, for me, my parents still support me because I am continuing my education. So my extra vehicle expenses (oil changes, tires, repairs, insurance, etc) are covered, and I have a roof over my head and food in my stomach. My family makes a moderate income; but with three other sisters, by the time all our expenses are paid for (house, vehicles, feeding/vetting/caring for our horses, etc) there is not a lot of extra spending money to go around. We survive comfortably but we're definately not well off.

I pay for as much of my expenses as possible so that I am able to ride. I live pay cheque to pay cheque and I am a POOR STUDENT! I was not raised poorly, and I'm not impolite. There is simply a little problem between my wallet and money! Whenever I check my wallet there is NO MONEY! It's either the tip or the 2 pairs of jeans I get every 6 months...Call me rude, inconsiderate, impolite, and poorly raised; but I'd like to have a pair of pants without holes parading throughout them every 6 months. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

So, other than if I make it to an occasional restaurant meal, I do not tip.. Why? I just do not have the money PERIOD.

But, if I did, I would have no problems paying and tipping for the services.

Bumpkin
Nov. 22, 2003, 09:43 AM
The other day it was quite cold here and snowy.
I took the Bumpkinette up to Starbuck's for a cocoa and in the line behind us were a group of her School Bus Drivers.
I bought them lattes, because they do a good job driving my precious daughter.
She was embarrassed, but the opportunity was there to repay them for the cold thankless hours they spend driving kids around.
Normally I would never have considered tipping them, but well it felt appropriate.

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

dogchushu
Nov. 22, 2003, 12:38 PM
Wow C. Bolyen, having never been to a multi-day show, I had no idea all that went into grooming! My experience with grooms has at been having someone on hand to hold my horse as I run to the Spot-a-Pot after drinking too much coffee at one day shows. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I would hope that if I were in a barn where tipping was the norm, someone would explain it to me (who gets tipped, when, how much). We're not born knowing this stuff, and some of us would appreciate a heads up about things like tipping.

I don't normally tip the braider, but when he makes a drive to my barn going out of his way at some ungodly hour for no other reason than just to braid my horse, I do add a tip in. I sleep better knowing I've shown my appreciation to someone who's gone out of their way for me.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

Lord Helpus
Nov. 22, 2003, 02:23 PM
I stopped reading this thread when ESG started posting. I have gotten into it with her and realized that she is either a troll or one of the most *out of it* people on the face of this earth. In checking back in, I find that others have not yet learned the fultility of trying to have a rational discussion with an irrational person.

Either way, folks, do not take her seriously or try to engage her in rational argument. It is not worth your time. Ignore her and spend your time discussing this topic with people who are dealing in the same reality that you are.

OK, ESG --- go to it and try to make me feel bad or stupid or, as you have tried to do before, crazy. You cannot engage me in a dialog because I will not answer any of your posts. You cannot insult me. For that, I need to believe that what you say is true. And I believe that everything you say is meant to get a rise out of people and is posted for no other reason than that.

I am outta here folks. Have fun.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

CBoylen
Nov. 22, 2003, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Downpour:
I am a working student. I play the part of both rider and groom. For my grooming/tacking up services I recieve board for one horse and enough money to pay for my basic expenses. For riding; nothing (as expected when one wishes to maintain their amateur status).
horses are to be ready and waiting, tacked up for trainer and myself to hack first. There is often several for my trainer, and several for myself (from clients horses, to my own horse, to some of my trainers horses).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Off topic, but your amateur status is actually already legally toast, so I'd go ahead and get paid for those rides. You can't a) accept board or b) get paid for services and ride horses from the same barn. But, don't worry, I'm not turning you in http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As far as the tipping, I completely agree with you about conserving money in strained circumstances. It it not rude to try to support yourself. It doesn't sound like you're consuming a lot of services that require tipping in the first place, and I certainly think you have an understanding about the hard work that goes into these jobs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

budman
Nov. 22, 2003, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:
ESG, less than five years ago I took home $260 a week as a groom for a big show barn. I had no health insurance, no 401K, no benefits of any kind. I worked six days a week, of which 5 were generally at shows. Do you think that equates in any way to minimum wage in comparison to the hours I worked? Some of my clients tipped, some did not. It was always appreciated, even if it was just a cup of coffee in the morning. Those of you who have grooms know what you pay for day care. So go ahead and ask your trainer what he/she pays the grooms. You'll probably be shocked.
I loved my job, my horses, and my clients, but I quit because I had to earn a living.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. No one is going to guarantee you that you're going to make a living in the horse business, or any other business. I don't have a trainer - I _am_ one, with my own facility and staff. In addition to no 401K, no insurance (I've gotten my own, including liability insurance so that I can keep what I do have), I worked two jobs for years to support my horse habit and myself. Yes, I'm married to a wonderful man who's also a rider and now have my own facility, but I've busted my ass for years for pennies, as has everyone else in this sport. You know why? Because there's nothing I'd rather do, and I'm willing to make a substandard living _because_ it's what I love to do. There ain't no free lunch in this world, honey; as the old Eagles song says, "Every form of refuge has its price". I'm willing to pay that price; have been doing it for seventeen years and I don't regret a moment of it. Since your priorities weren't with staying with the horse industry and you apparently weren't willing to sacrifice a good (or even decent) living to stay in it, it's fortunate that you decided to rethink your career choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ESG, I read this at 8 this morning and have been trying to think of a non-expletive-ridden response all day. Many thanks to the people who have attempted to open your tiny pinched mind. I still feel the need to make a couple of points, after which I will take Lord Helpus's fine advice and stop feeding an apparant garage gnome.

I was willing to make a substandard living because I loved my job. However, there came a point when I realized that I needed to grow up and start thinking longer term. My salary wouldn't cover personal health insurance and still let me eat. People who don't save for retirement eventually become a burden on themselves or society. While I applaud you for working two jobs to support yourself and your horses, does anyone know a show grrom who can pick up a second job? It isn't possible.

I find your remarks about Mexican grooms uninformed and revolting. And finally, I find your little "there ain't no free lunch in this world, honey" comment personally insulting, inappropriate and incorrect as regards this discussion and my comments, as well as grammatically unsound. You are certainly the rudest, most ignorant person I have met on this BB thus far, and I hope I have the pleasure of never speaking with you again.

Leader of the petition to call "trolls" "garage gnomes"
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

horse addict
Nov. 22, 2003, 04:12 PM
I dont have a groom or a braider but when the time comes that i decide id be more relaxed and focused riding if someone else did that stuff for me then i may tip... I always bring coffee and doughnuts for everyone in the morning, including grooms... And i would tip a groom but i dont think i would tip a braider. Tips are nice but i dont think people should expect them... if you want to make more money then raise your price. And i personally think its a load of crap to expect a tip from every client to feel appreciated... Money shouldnt have to prove the person is appreciative, a few simple words can take care of that, of a gift card, or a steaming hot cup of coffee in the morning... or my personal fave... if your at a week long horse show maybe let the groom know that you can take care of your horse after the class so they can take off early. Id be offended if they asked me straight out for a tip...People pay good money for grooms its rude to ask for more.

*****************************
[m.a.r.i.s.s.a]

Cliques: Baby Green Support Group, Canadian, Mares!, and YCMH.

becca's boys
Nov. 22, 2003, 04:57 PM
Oh darn it!!!! I have recently realized (from reading some other threads) that ESG is attempting to move to TEXAS! I guess she is leaving Welly (hmmm, wonder why http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)and is going to open up shop in....Houston is it?
As if the Texas horse scene didn't get enough of her bad attitude here on the board. It seems like every time I log on I find her trashing some poor group of people on some forum somewhere.

Black Market Radio
Nov. 22, 2003, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by canyouhearmenow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What restaurants are waitstaff paid way under minimm wage? None around here, that is for sure. It's ILLEGAL. That is what minimum wage is for. And I don't like that tips are "expected" either. If the waitstaff did a good job, I tip generously. If they didn't, they don't get a tip. Oh yeah, I also worked at a restaurant for a long time so I know what I am talking about! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously you have no clue. (You said you were a busser) Most restaurants pay under minimum wage. Around $3.00/hr. I've done the whole waitressing thing, and it was quite nice, I averaged at about $13 an hour, not bad for a little spending money during the summer. One thing I noticed while working at a restaurant was that tips are a fine indicator of a little something called CLASS.

Of course, there are exceptions... if the waiter forgets you, cusses at you, innappropriate behavior etc then obviously they won't be working at the restaurant for long.

Oh so you were a busser, eh? Bussers make minimum wage because even though it's a generous act for the waitstaff to tip out the bussers/bartenders, they usually don't.

----
An idiot repeats his mistakes.
A smart man learns from his mistakes.
A genius learns from the mistakes of others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alright. THAT ticked me off. I am NOT clueless. Based on MY expirience, at a restaurant I worked at, and restaurants that my FRIENDS have worked at, we got min wage or above. I KNOW that the servers where I worked at made more than the bussers because we had a wage scale and everyone knew what it was. So back off. And I always got a split of the tips from the servers I worked with because they appreciated all the work I did. I also got many $10 handshakes because of the good job I did. And I would tell my server that I had gotten some tips and not to give me a split because I didn't think that would be fair.

So I have been educated. I didn't know anything beyond the 4 or 5 restaurants that myself and other people I know have worked at. No need to get all troll like on me.

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

OneonOne
Nov. 22, 2003, 05:56 PM
Can we get a round of applause for Lord Helpus? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

ESG
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
I stopped reading this thread when ESG started posting. I have gotten into it with her and realized that she is either a troll or one of the most *out of it* people on the face of this earth. In checking back in, I find that others have not yet learned the fultility of trying to have a rational discussion with an irrational person.

Either way, folks, do not take her seriously or try to engage her in rational argument. It is not worth your time. Ignore her and spend your time discussing this topic with people who are dealing in the same reality that you are.

OK, ESG --- go to it and try to make me feel bad or stupid or, as you have tried to do before, crazy. You cannot engage me in a dialog because I will not answer any of your posts. You cannot insult me. For that, I need to believe that what you say is true. And I believe that everything you say is meant to get a rise out of people and is posted for no other reason than that.

I am outta here folks. Have fun.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, cool! Thanks, LH! You've just saved me the trouble of correcting all your posts! Can't thank you enough!

OneonOne
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:30 PM
I hardly think any of Lord Helpus' posts need correcting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-Bailey-
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:33 PM
Budman- I COMPLETELY AGREE. If, in ANY way you are not able to take care of your horse at any given moment, then they are helping you. You should tip people who are helping you because they are making your life easier, and they are also willing to do it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I would tip everyone who cares about your horse, or even cares about how your horse looks, acts, behaves, and how your barn/show stall space looks. This includes barn managers, braiders, grooms, trainers, etc. etc. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif So, to make a long story short, I am ALL FOR tipping. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Love you all-

"Just because something is a little banged up doesen't mean you throw it away" -Tom Smith

http://www.picturetrail.com .... go to end of links on left and enter elijah351 for pics!

Sea Monkey
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by canyouhearmenow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What restaurants are waitstaff paid way under minimm wage? None around here, that is for sure. It's ILLEGAL. That is what minimum wage is for. And I don't like that tips are "expected" either. If the waitstaff did a good job, I tip generously. If they didn't, they don't get a tip. Oh yeah, I also worked at a restaurant for a long time so I know what I am talking about! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously you have no clue. (You said you were a busser) Most restaurants pay under minimum wage. Around $3.00/hr. I've done the whole waitressing thing, and it was quite nice, I averaged at about $13 an hour, not bad for a little spending money during the summer. One thing I noticed while working at a restaurant was that tips are a fine indicator of a little something called CLASS.

Of course, there are exceptions... if the waiter forgets you, cusses at you, innappropriate behavior etc then obviously they won't be working at the restaurant for long.

Oh so you were a busser, eh? Bussers make minimum wage because even though it's a generous act for the waitstaff to tip out the bussers/bartenders, they usually don't.

----
An idiot repeats his mistakes.
A smart man learns from his mistakes.
A genius learns from the mistakes of others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alright. THAT ticked me off. I am NOT clueless. Based on MY expirience, at a restaurant I worked at, and restaurants that my FRIENDS have worked at, we got min wage or above. I KNOW that the servers where I worked at made more than the bussers because we had a wage scale and everyone knew what it was. So back off. And I always got a split of the tips from the servers I worked with because they appreciated all the work I did. I also got many $10 handshakes because of the good job I did. And I would tell my server that I had gotten some tips and not to give me a split because I didn't think that would be fair.

So I have been educated. I didn't know anything beyond the 4 or 5 restaurants that myself and other people I know have worked at. No need to get all troll like on me.

http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you in California? CA is required to pay their waiters minimum wage because it's the only state they have a union for waiters. And THERE is NO need TO type WITH every OTHER word CAPITALIZED.

Regardless, I find it suprising how you won't even tip at all at some places when you have worked in the same industry. Classless.

----
An idiot repeats his mistakes.
A smart man learns from his mistakes.
A genius learns from the mistakes of others.

-Bailey-
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:43 PM
ESG- just go away. Please, leave us all be. No one wants you here, so just go away.

Love you all-

"Just because something is a little banged up doesen't mean you throw it away" -Tom Smith

http://www.picturetrail.com .... go to end of links on left and enter elijah351 for pics!

SydneyS
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:46 PM
Someone made an earlier point that if the grooms are underpaid (which they shouldn't be, BTW), it is the responsiblity of the EMPLOYER (trainer or barn manager) to fix it. Since the trainer is making TONS of $$$$ on their clients, don't you guys think they should pay their staff according to the job? (I'm speaking specifically of the trainers and riders who tool around in luxury cars, wear Hermes ties and sport 2 carat diamond earrings under their helmet.) Shouldn't they be paying their staff a living wage first and foremost?

I think this is the true travesty, not the client who chooses not to tip.

Please don't flame me...

buryinghill2
Nov. 22, 2003, 06:46 PM
C.Boylen-
Going back to page 4 of this thread. Your lengthy description of a grooms job was probably the best one I have ever read. I groomed on the A circuit for over 20 years, and your paragraph was my life! It actually made me sad, and proud, to see what I did every day in print. I'd like to print out your post and keep it. It's hard to describe to people what my job was like.
Thank you for understanding what it's really like. Thank you for describing it better than I ever could myself!
And ESG, I never made much money, it had nothing to do with money. It was my choice. But that's why every tip was so appreciated, and so important.

Black Market Radio
Nov. 22, 2003, 07:00 PM
You don't have any right to judge if I have class or not. And I did not capitalize every other word. Have your eyes checked.

I do tip most of the time, but sometimes I don't because of really crappy service. This is my exact quote from my first post on this thread: "If the waitstaff did a good job, I tip generously. If they didn't, they don't get a tip." Now, someone who doesn't do a good job should not get a tip, IMO. It's not a matter of class on my part. You have no idea what I consider to be a good job or bad service. But I have had some servers that were absolutly horrible, and those are the people I don't tip. I usually give 30% tips when the service is good, less when marginal and none when I have had to chase the server down several times, had to ask many times to have my water refilled and had to beg to have my ticket. One time I went without water for so long, and after asking 5 times to have my glass refilled, (politely, of course), my husband took my glass to the back and filled it himself. You bet that got some attention and apologies. And no, they were not swamped or very busy at all. The server was having a gab fest with the other servers and not paying attention to the tables.

Even at our busiest times or in my crappiest moods I would make sure all my tables were waterd, cleared and happy. And I did it all with a smile and a good attitude. Even when I was having an apocolyptic day.

Where I worked, the servers only took food orders, served the food and gave the ticket. I am not sure about other places, but otherwise the bussers took drink orders, asked if everything was ok, brought out the dessert tray and cleared the tables... And I would have never expected a tip from either customers or from the server I was working with. I saw it as a bonus and was appreciative of it, but if I didn't get anything I didn't lose sleep over it or think someone was classless. And no, I was not exactly financially blessed. I worked 3 jobs, restaurant, daycare and groom.

A tip, to me, is something that is earned by being attentive, friendly and not having to ask 400 times to refill my water or wait 20 mins after I am done eating for my ticket.

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

ohnowwhat
Nov. 22, 2003, 07:30 PM
I don't think ESG "has" a barn. To "have" a barn indicates that one owns a barn, wouldn't you think?

I would like to know what the barn's name is in Wellington, if ESG really "has" a barn.

ESG is at Split Creek, right? So, is Split Creek ESG's?

ESG, does Split Creek belong to you?

JAGold
Nov. 22, 2003, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:

What exactly do you think I'm missing? That grooming _is_ skilled labor? If that's it, then I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. Grooming is _not_ skilled labor; it takes experience. Skill (in the sense I use it) does not equate experience; it refers to specialized knowledge and education to perform a specific task. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So are trainers also "unskilled?" They typically learn their craft through on the job experience and apprenticeship, rather than in school. Most of the very best don't have any certificates that attest to their qualifications.

The experts disagree with your definition of skilled labor, as well. In remarks entitled "The Evolving Demand for Skills," Alan Greenspan said <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Economists have long argued that a significant proportion of the work knowledge that one acquires in a lifetime is produced on the job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The General Accounting Office has written about the importance of apprenticeship programs.

In fact, the legal criteria for "skilled labor" is labor in occupations requiring at least two years of experience. Domestic cooks, for example, are considered skilled laborers. (See Carlos Uy III, 1997-INA-304 (BALCA Mar. 3, 1999) (en banc)).

Your comments display ignorance and closemindedness. --Jess

Ineptly
Nov. 22, 2003, 08:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So are trainers also "unskilled?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of them, yeah.

I believe Alan Greenspan posts here. Maybe he can clear this up once and for all.

MHM
Nov. 22, 2003, 08:54 PM
A. You guys crack me up.

B. Lord Helpus and C. Boylen, you rock! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C. I'll reiterate my opinion that it's best to explain your tipping policy (whatever it may be) to new clients so they know what to expect. Very few people are good mindreaders.

Kryswyn
Nov. 22, 2003, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:

Leader of the petition to call "trolls" "garage gnomes"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this instance, calling ESG a "garage gnome" would be unfair both to peaceful, caring gnomes AND to garages - no matter how full of sh*t they might be!

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

DoubleTwistedWire
Nov. 22, 2003, 10:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:

Leader of the petition to call "trolls" "garage gnomes"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this instance, calling ESG a "garage gnome" would be unfair both to peaceful, caring gnomes AND to _garages_ - no matter how full of sh*t they might be!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My garage, for one, greatly resents any implication that ESG has anything to do with it.

But I would tip someone who parked my car there for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

geckoUBC
Nov. 22, 2003, 10:29 PM
To simplify this thread...

Lord Helpus, Bumpkin, C.Boylen, and CuriousGeorge http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif = CLASSY

ESG = So, so NOT

Well, I know who I'd rather work for/with. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by AleeshaG on Nov. 23, 2003 at 12:45 AM.]

trailblazer
Nov. 22, 2003, 11:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AleeshaG:
To simplify this thread...

Lord Helpus, Bumpkin, C.Boylen, and CuriousGeorge http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif = CLASSY

ESG = _So, so NOT_

Well, I know who I'd rather work for/with. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I agree with ESG! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

SaddleFitterVA
Nov. 22, 2003, 11:15 PM
Tipping or not...

I tip more now that I earn more. Funny how that workshttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. But, I also didn't use my lack of funds as an excuse to not tip. If I couldn't afford a tip, where it was standard & customary, I didn't buy the service/item. I do try to tip in situations where I know it is the accepted practice. There are situations where I'm not sure, as I'm new to that service, and then, I try to figure it out.

Sometimes, I've been told specifically, "do not tip the valets, they are being paid handsomely already", and this was a private party, where the host did not want his guests to be expected to pay for anything. He took care of the wages of his staff and was simply informing the guests that they did not need to tip.

I just wanna say...if I was ever a professional groom, I'd wanna work for C. Boylen.

Mel

Bentley
Nov. 23, 2003, 03:39 AM
C.Bolyen - I have always enjoyed your posts and this one even more than most http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif What a wonderful way of explaining the real A circuit world. Too bad you are trying to convert the stubborn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, but from the rest of us, a big pat on the back and thanks!

CG & LordHelpus - as always, voices of reason coming out of the dark. You are both able to eloquently say what I'm thinking.

As another person whose been on both sides, groom and rider and working for what ended up being pennies an hour - tips, coffee, donuts at shows, even the odd 'oh don't worry about sweeping we'll do that' was appreciated more than the person probably realized.

I never expected tips, especially from other young people that I knew were working their butts off to afford to be at that barn, but if they would help me fill water buckets at the end of the day instead of flouncing out it was appreciated more than the money the rich folks would condescendingly hand me. Nothing like making someone feel like a piece of dirt when you hand them money like charity..... If you are going to tip, MEAN IT, don't just hand them money like they should be grateful http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

And yes, the nice people's horses probably got a little bit of extra treatment http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif of course sometimes it was actually opposite because you felt so sorry for the brat's horses that you took the time to baby them too. Had nothing to do with expecting a tip, just had to do with the people being NICE to the staff.

I try to remember that, and if I ask a barn staff to do something outside the usual, I try to compensate any way I can (help feed, sweep, etc) since the $$ isn't there. It's more about the being appreciated (or at least it was for me!)

Argh, nothing ticks me off more than underappreciating the people that make everyone else's lives easier http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Alixe

Louise
Nov. 23, 2003, 07:47 AM
All right! That's enough!

Guys, I don't usually play much on the h/j board, so I hadn't seen this thread until it was pointed out to me by someone. I'm kind of appalled by what I see. And all of it by people who should know better. And, I'm not calling a side here, I'm talking to both sides.

You know the rules, we do not talk about individuals here, we talk about issues. We also play nice. If you disagree with a point of view, explain why, nicely and logically.

But, PERSONAL INSULTS ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. Period.

I'm going to be keeping an eye on this thread from now on. And, I WILL close it if the tone does not improve.

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

-Bailey-
Nov. 23, 2003, 08:08 AM
thank you, thank you, Louise!

Love you all-

"Just because something is a little banged up doesen't mean you throw it away" -Tom Smith

http://www.picturetrail.com .... go to end of links on left and enter elijah351 for pics!

WarHorse
Nov. 23, 2003, 08:28 AM
"If you enjoyed your ride, please tip the Guide." (These people pay an enormous fee for a 2 hour tourist trail ride through the mountains).

Do you really believe the guide is getting any of this? When I was a guide, it was $700/mo and a 20 year old trailer. That was five years ago, too, during the boom.


even if the groom makes half and the barn makes half that is 93,600/2 = 46,800. that is a nice salary.

Not happening anywhere in this solar system. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


It's the price you pay for doing what you love, much like "actors" find other ways of paying the bills while they're waiting for their big break, or to make ends meet in between jobs.

Didn't you just chastise someone for doing just that?


And excuse me, since when did grooming horses become skilled labor?..Yes, experience is required, but nothing you can go to school and learn.

I beg to differ. I was schooled for grooming and management, and raised the standards everywhere I worked, bar none. I did finally have a job that provided decent housing and insurance, but my supervisor thought he was hiring a bottom. Sorry, pal - I'm straight! I work too long of hours and make too short of pay to think about dating.

Well anyway, thanks for letting me post. I am now working overseas and not around horses, so that I can save the dough to start my own horse business in a couple years. But I just couldn't let this one "lie."

Hugs,
WarH

Himbo
Nov. 23, 2003, 08:38 AM
When I worked for Judy Richter in the 80's it was never expected that we got tips but it was very much appreciated and I can tell you that the people that did tip on a regular basis got above and beyond care for their horses. I had one family the Cohen's that had two horses in my string and they without fail tipped every week so I did not mind on my day off to go over to the barn and turn him out with his boots and bells because they liked him to be out everyday. There was a very wealthy Dr with 3 horses there and he never tipped and was a miserable human being to boot and his groom did the basics for his horses but nothing "extra".

lmlacross
Nov. 23, 2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by DevilDog:

"I do tip most of the time, but sometimes I don't because of really crappy service. This is my exact quote from my first post on this thread: "If the waitstaff did a good job, I tip generously. If they didn't, they don't get a tip." Now, someone who doesn't do a good job should not get a tip, IMO."

This would be fine, if you're also willing to speak with their manager. Given that wait staff in most states don't make minimum wage (as has already been discussed), if you feel you need to deny a tip, you at least owe the restaurant and your albeit lackluster server an explanation as to why. If the kitchen is slow and the waitress didn't buffer this as well as she should have, would it be more important to you to penalize her, or let the management know you experienced a problem?

If I get marginally poor service, you'll not get more than a base tip of 15% from me. If there's something really bad (I get forgotten, wrong meals, overly long waits, waitress who disappears, etc.), I'll ask to speak with a manager. I hardly think it's appropriate to withold tip if you're not also willing to address why. As far as I'm concerned, my tips bring waitstaff up to a living wage. It's not my position to teach them to do their job better-- that role belongs to their manager. And, after I've shared the problems I've encountered, I'll look forward to returning and rewarding much improved service with 20%+.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

Linny
Nov. 23, 2003, 10:45 AM
Allow me to be the voice of ignorant neutrality...

I have never shown at an A show but have ridden at A show barns.
At the first I was a teenager (in the 70's http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) and leased from the barn and went to mostly C shows. The grooms were usually the "barn rats" looking to spend some time with horses, learn and maybe get an extra ride or two. I had been one of them for a year or two myself. They were not paid by the barn (at least I never was) but many owners gave them small tips or brought them lunch etc or let them hack their horses. For lesson students that is often a HUGE reward.
At the second barn, we did it all ourselves at 1 or 2 day shows or on a trailer in basis. We talked friends, family, SO's etc into helping. In both cases I did most of my own work, including braiding and tack care. I did usually bring coffee to "grooms/helpers" or offer some sort of gift as a thank you.
As a person who generally abhors tipping, apart from restaurant type settings I would certainly appreciate someone telling me what is customary at any new barn. I have no issue with gifts/cash to service providers at the holidays but I'm not ever sure what to do about tipping at places like hair salons. I do feel that "professionals" like trainers, manicurists and such should set their rates appropriately to earn a decent wage for themselves. I am not averse to a tip for a hard working low paid laborer. I would just want to be told what is expected so I may budget accordingly. I do think that tipping salaried type people like barn managers is not appropriate. Certainly a gift for someoone who really goes out of the way for you is ok.
Just because I ride doesn't mean I'm a money tree. There ARE probably grooms on the circuit who DO make more than I do a year, I know the person who does my (twice yearly) manicures makes more than I do.
I'd prefer to do my own care and save the $$$ and the possible embarrassment at a poor or not existant tip.

I hope I'm not offending anyone, I know how hard grooms work. I also know that day care is often a cash cow for barns charging very high rates and paying below minimum wage by calling grooms "salaried employees." NOT ALL BARNS, but some do this, while also charging for the stall back home standing empty for weeks on end. Once you factor in the home stall at say $15/day plus care on the road you are paying alot of money. It's too bad more of it isn't filtering down to the people doing most of the work.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Halfhalting
Nov. 23, 2003, 10:55 AM
I don't get tipped when I do my job (which directly effects anybody that uses vaccines or most prescription medicines). Heck, I don't even get a christmas bonus. Just because somebody is doing their job doesn't necessarily mean they should get additional money!

I agree that often times tipping is a great gesture, but this should not be a REQUIREMENT. I have always tipped for exceptional service. I ALWAYS tip the little kids who charge next to nothing if they didn't charge what their service was worth...(I remember charging $1 to shovel snowy driveways - and was happy when people told me I wasn't chargin enough!) But why tip somebody who gets paid a great sum of money to do a job that I already paid for (except tipping for exceptional services)? I had wanted to get more involved in the hunter circuit, but the more I hear about the behind the seens $$$ the more I get scared away... I don't make a ton of money, I was not blessed enough to be born into money or the horse industry, have a horse given to me or a farm owned by my parents. I scrounged and worked to have everything. I don't have much to spare! And yes, I have groomed, been the "rat" and taken care of MANY top show horses... I was sometimes tipped, and was always thankful, but I never EVER expected it. I had a flat rate for services, and didn't expect more.

And to those who think I lack "social graces" because I don't automatically tip for a non-exceptional job, I am offended that you would think everybody has the means to give out money so freely. Actually, I believe that I was raised to be appreciative and to work hard - and NOT expect handouts. I think my parents would be more proud of that than if I always tipped anybody who touched my horse.

I guess I get around all of this mess by being my own groom, cleaning my own stalls, and riding my own horses.

I'm sorry I don't have the same opinions as some of the more popular folks on this board, but we probably come from different backgrounds and thus, have this different stance. I hope we continue to enjoy each other's views though without getting upset... and cheer for each other at the next show! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SMKR
Nov. 23, 2003, 11:53 AM
Again,

Please tell me what my "daycare" is for. If it is not to pay the groom who is doing the daycare duties, then who is getting it. And if he is not getting it why not a thread making sure the money goes to where it is supposed to NOT saying I should pay more since the money I already paid didnt get to where it was intended to. I am just really confused. I am not doubting the need to pay an appropriate salary for work done, I thought I WAS. Do trainers assume they have no overhead and that all monies should be profit. I pay a trainer fee to the person who trains... he should get that. I pay a daycare fee for the person who takes care during the day...he should get that or at least a good portion of that. If a pay $100/ day per horse and I have one horse I am paying the groom $100/day right? Even if he works 12 hours (and odd hours that they may be) he is still making more than minimum wage.If he cares for more than one horse then he is making that much more.... or who is making that much more?
Tipping for work above and beyond the normal workload makes sense. Say, my horse is ill and for some reason (like I am dead) I do not want to watch my horse during the night ....nice big thank you pay... you dont know how much I appreciate this to the groom. But tipping because my stall was cleaned properly,because the saddle was on and my horse was brushed. I paid for that with my DAYCARE...didnt I. Again, explain to me what this daycare is, as it is obviously not what I thought. I am really not trying to be difficult.... I am truely confused .Again, for work beyond the regular daily stuff, or an extra effort for something unexpected, Yes...a tip is do.

Black Market Radio
Nov. 23, 2003, 12:44 PM
I live in CA where waitstaff gets at least min. wage, sometimes more. And I have spoken to management about lack-luster service, and I know the difference between what is the servers fault and what is the kitchens fault. I don't fault a server for bad food just as I wouldn't fault a cook for not having my water glass filled.

If I had the money that some of the people on this board have, and was showing on the A circuit and all, then I could be more generous to everyone. However, I am not and never will be. In fact, I have decided that I don't even WANT to show on the A circuit someday because it just doesn't sound like something I would enjoy. I am going to be perfectly happy showing on schooling circuits and just enjoying that. I am not knocking those that show on the A circuit, there are many whom I respect showing there and whom I think are wonderful people. I just know that I would be out of place and stick out like a sore thumb. So I guess I will stay down in the trenches where I belong and where I am happy!

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

Jumper221
Nov. 23, 2003, 12:55 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jrjumpermom:
Again,

Please tell me what my "daycare" is for. If it is not to pay the groom who is doing the daycare duties, then who is getting it. And if he is not getting it why not a thread making sure the money goes to where it is supposed to NOT saying I should pay more since the money I already paid didnt get to where it was intended to. I am just really confused. I am not doubting the need to pay an appropriate salary for work done, I thought I WAS. Do trainers assume they have no overhead and that all monies should be profit. I pay a trainer fee to the person who trains... he should get that. I pay a daycare fee for the person who takes care during the day...he should get that or at least a good portion of that. If a pay $100/ day per horse and I have one horse I am paying the groom $100/day right? QUOTE]

At my barn, the day care fee included horse feed, the cost of the groom's hotel room at the shows, the cost of the trainer's hotel room (occasionaly charged extra as well depending on the hotel costs at the show), groom and trainer transportation costs, bedding for the stalls, the cost of decorations/woodchips for the tent at the show, and any other incidental costs of being away from home. Not very much of the day care money actually goes to groom salaries, but not that much is purely profit either. The grooms at my barn were well paid compared to some other barns (they were on the clock, so they did get compensated for the extra hours), but we always appreciated how hard they worked compared to how much money they made, and gave them a tip at the end of the show.

CuteHunter
Nov. 23, 2003, 01:18 PM
C.Boylen- I think you put the whole thing in perspective very nicely. Tip what you can afford to show the gesture. I have never had a groom- but in my mind to simulate the work one has to do, I look at how hard I work taking care of just my horse at show and multiply that by about 20%- then I minus the actual fun of showing. Frankly, I dont think if I showed every single week that I would tip my groom every single week but I would make sure they were being paid AT LEAST a living wage and would certainly tip when money permitted and when it didnt, I would make sure I brought them coffee, or lunch or a dinner or something to show that while I dont have "tip money" right now, I do honestly appreciate how hard they work.

And ESG- maybe I am reading your posts the wrong way but what it sounds like to me is that you are extremely elitist. Maybe I am wrong but it seems that you are saying that someone who does manual labor and in a barn no less doesnt deserve a living wage. Thats a terrible attitude. Anyone who puts in an honest days work- whether you are a groom or Bill Gates, you deserve to be paid for that work. And you deserve to be paid at least a living wage and enough to save a bit for retirement.

* * * * * * * * * *
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MdLib
Nov. 23, 2003, 01:27 PM
I've never tipped a cow. Always wanted to try, though.

GatoGordo
Nov. 23, 2003, 01:34 PM
Moonkitty, around here, the cows get $12 an hour plus room and board. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

trailblazer
Nov. 23, 2003, 01:43 PM
Wages are not determined by what you think you "need." Anyone who puts in an honest day's work deserves to be paid for that work. But where does a "living wage" fall into that? It doesn't.

Why not just make the minimum wage $100,000???

CuteHunter
Nov. 23, 2003, 01:51 PM
lexiboo- I am sort of confused by your statement. Do you mean that if one puts in a honest day's work and is paid for that, the amount they are paid does not necessairly have to equate to a living wage?

To me, anyone working full time should be able to live off that without help from others or the government. That is what I consider a living wage and what I think should be the starting place when paying someone for a day's work. Obviously depending on where you live, a living wage would mean a different amount- but at the end of the day it should be enough to keep a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food in your stomach. Minimum wage is supposed to reflect this- but it often doesnt.

* * * * * * * * * *
Another Perfect Kappa Rush!!

ponyjumper4
Nov. 23, 2003, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Actually, I agree with ESG! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too.


All my childhood I wished and wanted to show on the A circuit, but the more I see the attitudes and read about it from people on here, the more I want to stay away from it, or at least do everything myself including having my own barn.

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Albion
Nov. 23, 2003, 02:20 PM
Of course everyone OUGHT to be able to live off of a full-time job without assistance, but there are so many examples where that's just not true. My college newspaper just printed all the salaries for the faculty (not including benefits, etc.) and there are young(er) profs in the history department making a little over $26K a year. These are people with PhDs - and THEY'RE barely making a living wage. Just paying rent on a semi-decent apartment here in Fredericksburg would eat up over half your salary BEFORE taxes.

In the broadest sense of the word, I think a 'groom' can be 'unskilled labor' - when I was riding at a training track, some of our 'grooms' could've been replaced with trained monkeys and I would've seen a definite improvement (I used to think it was common sense NOT to wave a pitchfork in the face of a skittish 2 year old to get them to scoot away from the stall guard - I know better now). But to be a top quality groom - be it for show horses, race horses, whatever - well, that's skilled work. C. Boylen summed it up quite well. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif There's a reason good barn staff are worth their weight in gold.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

AmRider
Nov. 23, 2003, 03:13 PM
OK - This thread is WAYYYYY out of control!!!

I just asked a simple question for clients new to the sport. After looking throught this entire thread, I gleam that most would like to know what is expected and have someone explain the ins and outs. I just don't get the other fights going on here so . . . thank you to those that answered my question.

I will add a notation on my pricelist saying "tips to grooms, etc. are not included, though not mandatory" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thank you for the insight --- and to the rest --have fun in the rest of your arguments, er debates!

YourDesire
Nov. 23, 2003, 03:18 PM
A question for those of you, that do tip the grooms/barn managers...

Do you tip the bus driver? The cashier at the grocery store? Your childs teacher?

I have never heard of tipping a groom, and most likely would not, unless they went above and beyond. I tip the waiters at the restaurant. Why? Thats what I grew up with.

If you expect me to tip grooms, and think it should be a common practice, then I had better be tipping the bus driver. Afterall, he transports my butt around for me. The cashier, they ever so kindly ring all my food in for me, and some do put it in bags. My teachers. They teach me the knowledge I need to know. Cant forget about them!

I just dont understand it. If you start tipping grooms (or whoever) when is it going to stop? Will we be expected to tip every person that does a service for us?

*Gotta Love Those Chestnut Mares With Lots Of Chrome*

Molly99
Nov. 23, 2003, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YourDesire:
A question for those of you, that do tip the grooms/barn managers...

Do you tip the bus driver? The cashier at the grocery store? Your childs teacher?

I have never heard of tipping a groom, and most likely would not, unless they went above and beyond. I tip the waiters at the restaurant. Why? Thats what I grew up with.

If you expect me to tip grooms, and think it should be a common practice, then I had better be tipping the bus driver. Afterall, he transports my butt around for me. The cashier, they ever so kindly ring all my food in for me, and some do put it in bags. My teachers. They teach me the knowledge I need to know. Cant forget about them!

I just dont understand it. If you start tipping grooms (or whoever) when is it going to stop? Will we be expected to tip every person that does a service for us?

*Gotta Love Those Chestnut Mares With Lots Of Chrome*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do tip most of those listed.

I don't live in an area that I use the bus, so that doesn't apply to me, but I have tipped the bus drivers at airports that have helped me with my luggage. Anyone who helps to lift my overstuffed suitcase deserved something.

I do tip school teachers in the fact that they always get a gift for holidays, birthdays and at the end of the year. Why not, they helped to educate my child.

Cashier at the grocery store if they took my bags to the car, yes. But that never happens around here anymore. I remember as a kid, it was normal for them to do that and my mom always gave them something.

Elghund2
Nov. 23, 2003, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ]I do tip school teachers in the fact that they always get a gift for holidays, birthdays and at the end of the year. Why not, they helped to educate my child. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I teach and I think I would find it offensive if someone tipped me. That would imply I was the hired help not a professional.

I actually find the title of the thread somewhat offensive. A tip is a show of gratitude for a service performed in an extraordinary way. I don't think that (a) professionals should be tipped and (b) that you should have to "educate" clients. If your non-professional staff are performing in a manner above and beyond what is expected then tips may come their way.

I have generally found that in the horse world people don't charge for a service what it is worth or at a level that guarantees a profit (i.e., board versus "extra" fees). A lot of these issues would go away of people ran their equestrian businesses as a business.

"I thought I was dead once but it turns out, I was only in Nebraska."

archieflies
Nov. 23, 2003, 04:30 PM
OK, so I'll admit to only having read the first page of the thread... I only tip at restaurants, and then only if they actually did a good job. I'm a poor college student! Besides, I've paid my dues in the barn. For the last year of high school and the first year of college I worked at a barn, teaching lessons to beginners and feeding/grooming/caring for the horses. One student gave me a Christmas gift once. Never expected it, but I appreciated it. I only once got a "tip"- when we had a girl's birthday party at the barn and I led around the pony rides. Afterwards, the father gave me $15- because it was on MY EIGHTEENTH BIRTHDAY and I was being whined at by 6 year olds. I appreciated that tip very much. Especially since I was only making $7 a hour, while the barn was making about $100 every hour off my lessons. My wage was a term I had aggreed to. Had I expected more money, I would have asked for higher wages or found a different job.
Anyways, you know who I think should be tipped? Those kids at the barn who do everyhting for everybody just because they're around and they're willing... Teach the kids that with hard work comes surprise unexpected rewards, and you'll end up with more willing workers...

Saw 'Em Off...
*#~*#~*#~*#~*#
Proud Member of: MOOP, Disgruntled College Students, OPH, Dyslexic, Tall People, and TEXAS Cliques

archieflies
Nov. 23, 2003, 04:44 PM
To add to my previous post... Over the summer I stayed in my trainers house while he was away at shows- not so I could be there to do work (hired help for that) but so there would be someone on the property at all times and a central person to come to if something was seriously wrong. Some new boarders who weren't used to the way we ran things spent the ENTIRE week coming to me with complaints expecting me to change things... they wanted me to change the feed their horses were on, they wanted me to go to the feed store and buy the specific feed that they wanted their horse on (on a Sunday afternoon, no less, and got rather ornery when I couldn't get it), they even wanted me to go by their horse's stall every fifteen minutes (yes, during the ngith as well) to make sure the water buckets were FULL at all times- I got a very stern lecture when said boarder came one mronign and the bucket had gotten down to 7/8 full during the ngiht... And they repeatedly tried to get me to do things for them or allow things that the trainer and barn manager had firmly said NO to before he left! I was fully taken advantage of and certainly asked to do things that were NOT my job... but a "tip" never would have even crossed my mind!!!!!!! Honestly, I would have been very confused had a tip even been suggested! Maybe I'm just more "disgruntled" than the average person, but I think people that expect a pat on the back every time they do what needs to be done need a reality check...

Saw 'Em Off...
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Proud Member of: MOOP, Disgruntled College Students, OPH, Dyslexic, Tall People, and TEXAS Cliques

archieflies
Nov. 23, 2003, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Cashier at the grocery store if they took my bags to the car, yes. But that never happens around here anymore. I remember as a kid, it was normal for them to do that and my mom always gave them something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason you don't see it anymore? Grocery stores don't allow it... they want their employees to act as professionals... They want their employees to give the same service to everyone, whether that person has the money to tip or not...

Saw 'Em Off...
*#~*#~*#~*#~*#
Proud Member of: MOOP, Disgruntled College Students, OPH, Dyslexic, Tall People, and TEXAS Cliques

Linny
Nov. 23, 2003, 05:21 PM
In response to the question on p7 about daycare costs vs what grooms make...there is a huge gap.

As I said earlier on this thread, my brother is a barn worker. By the time the barn manager gets there, he's fed and watered 44 horses, checked all blankets and tried to glean that they are healthy and haven't harmed themselves overnight.
Last spring, at an A show about 35 miles from the barn by bro, after feeding/watering/doing stalls for the 38 horses in the barn he was sent to the show to clean stalls there, wash buckets and feed. His day started at 6am and ended at 5pm. He didn't get paid a penny extra for the driving/gas or the time. He was at both the show and the barn or most of the 10 days the horses were at the two week show.
I'm sure the owners were paying a healthy day care fee and that it costs extra to have the horses away from home. Remember though that the horse incurs no costs at home during the time he's away.
Some of the grooming etc was provided by barn rats and non showing boarders as well as barn mom or two. None of them were exactly getting $10/hr.
As for earning $7/hr teaching group lessons while the barn is charging $35, this is your first lesson in capitalism. Get good, earn a great reputation and maybe you can freelance somewhere and the $35/hr will be yours not theres. A good friend of mine, a horsewoman with 35 years experience was teaching parttime and riding some sale/training hores there. She was getting paid about $10/hr and watching as the lesson rate was raised by $10/hr and the training fees were raised as well. They didn't give her a raise and she left. She was working for the love of ridng and teaching and doesn't need the money to eat. The income was nice though and the barn has lost students who liked her and not her replacement. Now there's some fodder for a new topic.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

[This message was edited by Linny on Nov. 23, 2003 at 07:56 PM.]

Lord Helpus
Nov. 23, 2003, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by archieflies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Cashier at the grocery store if they took my bags to the car, yes. But that never happens around here anymore. I remember as a kid, it was normal for them to do that and my mom always gave them something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason you don't see it anymore? Grocery stores don't allow it... they want their employees to act as professionals... They want their employees to give the same service to everyone, whether that person has the money to tip or not...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I shop at some stores that still offer to take groceries to the car. I sometimes accept the offer. But I do not tip. WHY? Because these are the stores that charge a premium for their food (the kind of store that carries 6 different kinds of olives in the deli section). I figure that the service has already been paid for by the higher prices.

Relating this to horse shows: If I am with a classy barn which charges $100/day for taking care of my horse, I expect that enough of that money is going to the groom so that he is not just adequately paid, but well paid for his time. Most grooms take care of 4 horses at a show. That is $400 in daycare money attributable to each groom.

Keeping in mind that the groom is also getting his base, at home salary, if he were to get $200/day over and above that base salary, I think he is getting well paid for his work. I expect $200/day to be enough extra for a groom to find a hotel --sharing a $60/night room will only cost $30 of the $200, and food can cost $20 (this is $20 MORE than food at home would cost, since he is already being paid an at home salary). That leaves $150/day over his base salary to work the long hours.

So if the groom gets half of the day care money the trainer gets the other half. This $50/day per horse does not go towards training or riding. That is billed separately. And, usually it is not going for hotel, food or bedding for stalls. That is also billed separately. It is also not going for grooming and feed stalls. That is billed separately.

Other than wood chips and potted plants, what is this money going for???

I guess it is going into the trainer's pocket IN ADDITION TO ALL THE MONEY PAID FOR TRAINING.

I invite trainers to come forward and correct my math..... I would feel much better knowing that their grooms are paid a good wage and the rest of my day care money was going towards expenses specifically incurred at the show involved, as I have been led to believe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Molly99
Nov. 23, 2003, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elghund2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ]_I do tip school teachers in the fact that they always get a gift for holidays, birthdays and at the end of the year. Why not, they helped to educate my child._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I teach and I think I would find it offensive if someone tipped me. That would imply I was the hired help not a professional.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you have never taken a gift from a student?

That was what I was refering to. Do I give them cash, no. But I have given them gift certificates to stores I know they like.

Tips do NOT have to always be cash. The situation and person would determine if cash or a gift was given, but for me the reason behind it is the same. To say thanks for all your help.

I also taught and know of NO teacher was was ever offended by a student or parent given a gift to them.

elizabeth
Nov. 23, 2003, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
I shop at some stores that still offer to take groceries to the car. I sometimes accept the offer. But I do not tip. WHY? Because these are the stores that charge a premium for their food (the kind of store that carries 6 different kinds of olives in the deli section). I figure that the service has already been paid for by the higher prices.

Relating this to horse shows: If I am with a classy barn which charges $100/day for taking care of my horse, I expect that enough of that money is going to the groom so that he is not just adequately paid, but well paid for his time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you were advocating tipping the grooms, no?

I'm not intending to give you a hard time - I'm just asking for clarification!

Sonesta
Nov. 23, 2003, 08:17 PM
Wow! I just came to read this thread after seeing MB Starks nasty post about ESG. I am shocked at you guys.

I just want to say that I have known ESG for many years. I knew her when she was grooming, knew her when she was working her butt off for a really tough employer as a riding instructor, have watched her ride horses ranging from the rank to the sublime (she rides BEAUTIFULLY, by the way) and have known her during the opening of her barns here in Houston and then in Wellington (where her family lives). I know that she is coming back to the Houston area and has bought a place quite near to mine.

I want you to know that, while she CAN be a bit caustic and is ALWAYS outspoken to a fault, she is a very good person who cares greatly about her horses and her students. Disagreeing with her is one thing (I have on many occaisions) but dumping on her for expressing her opinion is just ridiculous and childish.

Get over yourselves and allow everyone to have their own opinion - right or wrong.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.&lt;BR&gt;
"Find something you love & call it work."

paw
Nov. 23, 2003, 09:53 PM
Count me in with the "there're too many folks around these days with their hands out" crowd.

I'm sorry - I board where I board because I enjoy the quality of care, and I pay a pretty penny for it, too. I contribute to the Xmas pool for all of the barn help, but I would be _appalled_ if my horse didn't receive the same quality of care as those of people who were more profligate (or less anonymous) with their funds.

Tips are nice. But maybe because I'm from the middle-class, I can't accept that they're "required". Workers who don't feel that they're being adequately compensated ought to take it up with their employer or find work elsewhere.

SydneyS
Nov. 23, 2003, 10:02 PM
Most of you are missing the point. No one is saying that grooms shouldn't be paid what they're worth - they should be compensated by their employers for the hard and honest work they do.

The problem is the profit the trainer is making off of their work. The horse world has long since been a mess in terms of an economic model - nothing makes sense, really. Its just like the HUGE commissions and outrageous prices of less than stellar horses.

SydneyS
Nov. 23, 2003, 10:10 PM
Thank you, Lord Helpus. I was trying to say exactly what you so eloquently stated.

We're truly pricing ourselves out of the market - even people who make more than $100k/year! Thank goodness for horse prices that the recession hit, otherwise we'd still be paying $50-100k for average horses!

And a comment to those that say they were brought up to always tip... I was taught that cash gifts were rude. It meant you were throwing money at someone you didn't care about, instead of taking the time to purchase a gift that was significant to the recipient.

Downpour
Nov. 23, 2003, 10:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WarHorse:
_"If you enjoyed your ride, please tip the Guide." (These people pay an enormous fee for a 2 hour tourist trail ride through the mountains)._

Do you really believe the guide is getting any of this? When I was a guide, it was $700/mo and a 20 year old trailer. That was five years ago, too, during the boom.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually yes most guides do recieve the tip! From what I've known and heard (from guides) the tip goes from the clients pocket to the guides hands (not through the employer). I am guessing the reason behind the sign, based on CrossedWings post, would be for the guides to recieve the tip.. As it doesn't say "please tip your wrangler/ranch owner/horse/etc)"

I'm not disputing whether guides are paid well or not; but I would agree that these trail rides do cost a substantial amount. My father and I paid $300 to go on a 2 hour trail ride through the mountains. I, being the youngest of the group, got to ride a very slow and unhappy donkey, and worked the whole time to either try and get this donkey to leave the trail, or see if we could catch up to the rest of the group... I managed to get him back to camp 30 seconds after the rest of the group which apparently was a huge accomplishment for this donkey. According to the guide he normally shows up with his rider 30-45 minutes after the rest of the group has arrived back at camp...... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WarHorse
Nov. 24, 2003, 12:59 AM
Thank you everybody for not flaming me (yet). And thanks Sonesta for the balancing post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Keeping in mind that the groom is also getting his base, at home salary, if he were to get $200/day over and above that base salary, I think he is getting well paid for his work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW! Where is that barn? I'd work there. I would even try braiding again! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Actually yes most guides do recieve the tip! From what I've known and heard (from guides) the tip goes from the clients pocket to the guides hands (not through the employer). I am guessing the reason behind the sign, based on CrossedWings post, would be for the guides to recieve the tip.. As it doesn't say "please tip your wrangler/ranch owner/horse/etc)"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I received tips - sometimes $15 or $20 in one day! The owner was COUNTING on it, so he could legally justify paying less than $200/week, and at an average of 60 hours/week...you get the picture. I loved what I was doing, though. I wouldn't trade that experience for money, so it was worth it in a way.

BTW, that donkey would NOT have gone out with me! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Kudos to you for keeping up, but tempermental ponies were bad enough.

Ah, yes, the good ol' daze... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

MBS
Nov. 24, 2003, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
And a comment to those that say they were brought up to always tip... I was taught that cash gifts were rude. It meant you were throwing money at someone you didn't care about, instead of taking the time to purchase a gift that was significant to the recipient.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I was brought up to "tip" people that you employ. Of course it is even nicer to give a significant gift AS WELL. My father always gave his secretary a cash bonus as well as a small gift. Household help the same. And Now that I work in a house as a personal assistant, I count on my bonuses!!!

Lord Helpus
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:02 AM
Perhaps if trainers do not want to post and give us all an idea of where our daycare money goes, then maybe the ex-show grooms can give us an idea what % of day care money actually goes to the grooms.

Elizabeth, I am advocating tipping grooms IF they are not being adequately compensated by the trainer OR if they have performed services outside of their job description.

But, if a groom is getting based salary plus $200/day and only performs services that are within his job description, I think a heartfelt "THANK YOU, ____, you have really turned my horse out looking like a winner. I only wish I could ride him as well as you turn him out" combined with a firm handshake while looking him/her straight in the eye, is enough.

I have braided for others at shows. Then I have changed clothes and gotten on my horse to show. I have been appalled at how invisible I was as long as I was a worker-bee. When I became a rider, people who had passed me without a sideways glance only an hour before, would say "hello" with a pleasant smile on their face.

After this experience (and I hope before) I have vowed to treat EVERYONE on the show ground as a person, doing a job. My job is to find 8 spots, but their jobs are more important. Without them, I would not have a horse to ride (grooms), jumps to jump (ring crew) or a clean porta-potty to sit in (well, you get the idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

I am not saying that money is not important. But treating grooms like overworked and harried human beings who can use a hand and deserve a chance to sit down and rest, while someone else sweeps the aisle or waters the horses, can also go a long way.

BTW: For the last 4 years I have done my own daycare (including Florida), so I can see things from both perspectives. I am out there lunging at 6 AM on Pre-green under saddle morning, and staying through 6 PM to wrap and put to bed. I know how hard grooms work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Molly99
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:17 AM
The only extra pay I received when on the road in addition to my normal salary, was a per diem for food.

I don't know of very many grooms that get extra pay for being on the road. Maybe for indoors, etc., but for a normal show. That was simply part of your salary you worked either at home or at a show. Some barns do not even give the help per diem when on the road.

I guess this is why I feel it is important to tip the help at shows, since I don't think any are getting paid more to be there then if they were at home and they sure have more work to do.

I have never felt that day care was going directly to the grooms since they existed at home as well as at the shows.

Day Care goes towards the extra expenses of keeping the horses on the road, than what it costs to keep them in a stall at home.

So it would cover the per diem of the help and their hotel rooms, travel to the show and then all the supplies need to keep the horses on the road, brushes, shampoo, lunge lines, feed, etc.

Show barns often have to have 2 sets of everything. One set that stays home for the horses that don't go on the road and one set that travels to the shows. Unless every rider wants to have to pack their own stuff each and every show, it makes more sense to pay a day care rate and the barn provide it all.

I do think that some places have gone overboard in their fees and I would love to know where they came up with the amount to charge. It sounds like many just decided to start charging X because that is what barn Y charges, but instead of offering the same services, they don't change anything in their barn to match the higher fee.

wendy
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:19 AM
I find the entire concept of tips and giving gifts to employees to be offensive. Even wait staff. These people get paid to perform their jobs. Why do I have to supplement that pay just to get them to perform their jobs? if the employer doesn't pay enough, they should go work somewhere else. The only exception would be if you were paying the person to perform a different type of duty, outside their normal job description-- for example, getting your secretary to pick up your dry-cleaning definitely requires some type of extra payment.

When I was teaching, we were flat-out forbidden to accept any type of gift or tip from a student or student's family member. We were supposed to do our best for all of our students, not just the ones who bribed us.

MBS
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Perhaps if trainers do not want to post and give us all an idea of where our daycare money goes, then maybe the ex-show grooms can give us an idea what % of day care money actually goes to the grooms.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I can tell you NONE of it goes into the Grooms pockets. Some things have changed since I was on the road in the early 1980s. The first year I went to Florida, we paid for our own hotels. We would put 4 of us in a room. Now I would assume the day care money goes to pay for hotels or house rentals in Wellington and that "extra" $20 per day for food at the horse shows. NO grooms are getting rich off their jobs and the trainers which I am sure you will never get an answer from are making money off their backs.

EventerAJ
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:21 AM
I've been lurking on this thread from the beginning. I find it interesting.

Great posts LordHelpus!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Back to lurkdom.

lauriep
Nov. 24, 2003, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I shop at some stores that still offer to take groceries to the car. I sometimes accept the offer. But I do not tip. WHY? Because these are the stores that charge a premium for their food (the kind of store that carries 6 different kinds of olives in the deli section). I figure that the service has already been paid for by the higher prices.

Relating this to horse shows: If I am with a classy barn which charges $100/day for taking care of my horse, I expect that enough of that money is going to the groom so that he is not just adequately paid, but well paid for his time. Most grooms take care of 4 horses at a show. That is $400 in daycare money attributable to each groom.

Keeping in mind that the groom is also getting his base, at home salary, if he were to get $200/day over and above that base salary, I think he is getting well paid for his work. I expect $200/day to be enough extra for a groom to find a hotel --sharing a $60/night room will only cost $30 of the $200, and food can cost $20 (this is $20 MORE than food at home would cost, since he is already being paid an at home salary). That leaves $150/day over his base salary to work the long hours.

So if the groom gets half of the day care money the trainer gets the other half. This $50/day per horse does not go towards training or riding. That is billed separately. And, usually it is not going for hotel, food or bedding for stalls. That is also billed separately. It is also not going for grooming and feed stalls. That is billed separately.

Other than wood chips and potted plants, what is this money going for???

I guess it is going into the trainer's pocket IN ADDITION TO ALL THE MONEY PAID FOR TRAINING.

I invite trainers to come forward and correct my math..... I would feel much better knowing that their grooms are paid a good wage and the rest of my day care money was going towards expenses specifically incurred at the show involved, as I have been led to believe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif[/QUOTE]

Pam, I cannot believe I am hearing this from you! Daycare does not, and never has, come to the grooms, except perhaps their hotel room and eating $, which was a whopping $20/day when I left. The grooms are paid a salary and usually, but not always, housing is provided. No insurance (in a high risk profession, not a desk job), no retirement, vacation usually set at 2 weeks no matter how long you work for an operation. And the salary doesn't increase AT ALL when you go from a semi-normal, 6 day a week, 8-4:30 day to 7 days a week, 12-14 hours a day. But daycare $$?? Not a part of my world, or any other of my peers. It went to the trainers and was used as they saw fit. Being on the road has a huge overhead, so I doubt they made much either. But we never saw it, I promise you!

I would also like to add that housing is never individual; if the barn pays for it, at home or away, you will be sharing it with AT LEAST one other person, if not several. Not the way that normal adults live, I can assure you.

I do not think tipping should be mandatory. But I think it should be mandatory that the owners/riders understand what the grooms make, what the daycare money does NOT go towards, and then they can make an educated choice about tipping. Or demand the trainer provide 1)an accounting of where daycare money goes or, even better, 2) the grooms (and I am speaking of the HIGHLY qualified upper echelon grooms, not just muckers, sorry)should be paid enough to live on, with insurance, retirement and sick/personal/vacation days. this is what corporate America gets for the most part. Why should the VERY WEALTHY horse industry do less?

Laurie

[This message was edited by lauriep on Nov. 24, 2003 at 11:50 AM.]

SupaGoo
Nov. 24, 2003, 09:46 AM
When I worked as a groom on the "A" circuit I got the same pay at home as on the road. I did get a per diem and sometimes my boss even brought us lunch in addition (which was great). I wasn't making quite $100/day...more like $70/day...and no tips since I was working directly for an amateur and they were all her horses. I got gas money to get to the show from the barn, but not any for the week while I was at the show..which when you're staying 25 mins away is quite a lot (I also came back at night for night check- so that was a lot of gas everyday).

-Kristen

Lord Helpus
Nov. 24, 2003, 10:00 AM
Laurie,

I swear, I didn't know..... I know what happens when we "ass-u-me", but obviously I am guilty of it.

Call me stupid, but I thought that DAYCARE paid for the daily care of my horse. And the horse's groom is responsible for that daily care.

PS, my *awakening* came after my Sandron years. But I hope I was not tooooo gulity of not respecting the job that you did, way back then.

I know that, since I have been braiding and doing my own daycare (getting up at 3 AM to be ready to show at 9 AM) I have a lot more empathy. And I am only dealing with one horse.....

PPS: To understand both sides of this revalation, I would be interested to know what expenses the trainer occurs on the road (not just in general, but an itemized list). Since hotels and food are billed separately, on top of daycare charges, what EXACTLY does the $50 - $100/day buy me?

Perhaps the trainer who started this thread, and who feels that clients should be tipping to compensate grooms for extra labor on the road, would be willing to start....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

archieflies
Nov. 24, 2003, 10:02 AM
So, basically, the answer has come down to the salary that grooms are paid, not the amount that they are tipped. So, to the trainer who originally began the thread, no, there is no need for you to "teach" your clients to tip. Giving them a lecture on tipping would sound a whole lot like "please compensate for what they are not being paid," which I hopwe is not the situation in your barn. If you feel you're properly compensating your grooms, then smile, relax, and let things be. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If a truly extraordinary situation comes along, I'm sure your clients will realize on their own when its appropriate to say thank you in a special way. No need to insult their intelligence or their pocketbooks by making the decision for them. You wouldn't want them to begin thinking that what they pay you doesn't cover the help as well.

Saw 'Em Off...
*#~*#~*#~*#~*#
Proud Member of: MOOP, Disgruntled College Students, OPH, Dyslexic, Tall People, and TEXAS Cliques

MHM
Nov. 24, 2003, 10:03 AM
To the letter! I've never known a groom to get any part of the day care money. Strictly salary, plus housing and possibly per diem. If grooms were actually making $200-300/day, why would it be so hard to find good help?!?

lauriep
Nov. 24, 2003, 10:11 AM
Pam, I was a very fortunate groom in that I also became friends with most of "my" customers, including you, Brendan, Kats. I also loved my job, and didn't think about how little I was making back then because I didn't know any better!

Now, I have the benefit of hindsight, and having been in the real world for 20 + years. Although I STILL don't make much money (long story!), I at least have good health/dental insurance, a retirement plan, job security, and other little perks.

I don't know why the horse industry, and not just h/j, but the track, eventers, pretty much everywhere, hasn't been forced to ante up and treat their employees better. Now, the next statement is IN NO WAY meant to be racist or elitist, but the sad fact is that, as in other businesses, the willingness of foreign workers to accept less is probably a big reason. If all of us white, female, semi-well-educated, or white, gay, male grooms were still "doing" it, things may have been forced to change as we got older and wiser. A couple of weak attempts were made to "organize," but since we lacked a "Norma Rae" it never got off the ground. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done...

Gee, I'll bet I could be REALLY popular if I were to go back and assume that role!

Laurie

lauriep
Nov. 24, 2003, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumpin'Fool:
Having been on many sides of the horse equation, here's the problem I have with tipping.

A big barn charges 95.00 per day day care. The manager/head groom makes 750 per week, tax fee, has a house, utilities, cell phone, and a per diem when showing. The other grooms make 450 to 650 per week, depending on the length of time they have been there and their experience, as well as the above listed benefits. The customers are charged extra for motels, feed and bedding.

They are expected to tip five to ten dollars per day per horse per groom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who isn't taking out for taxes? If you know that is happening, one call to the IRS would fix that. Every barn I worked for took out taxes and SS.

Housing - as mentioned above, a "group living" situation. Not exactly conducive to setting up housekeeping as you might want to live.

Cellphone - for the trainer's benefit.

Per diem - it should never COST employees to have to go on the road. Usually, it is not their choice.

Now, to pay for a car, car insurance, health insurance, medical/dental NOT covered by insurance, and IRA or similar retirement, and, if they DO want to have a life of their own, a house (rent or buy), food, clothes, and other expenses, doesn't leave much left.

If all employees were this well paid, life would be grand. But they are not. And any kind of gift, whether money or something they can use, goes a long way in making up the difference.

Laurie

SydneyS
Nov. 24, 2003, 01:02 PM
But no one is disputing the facts of life for a show groom. We just want our daycare money (especially when it's in the $100-$150/day range) to filter down to the grooms that take care of our horses.

lauriep
Nov. 24, 2003, 01:12 PM
Me, too!

The grooms aren't in the position of demanding to get a percentage of it, so perhaps you owners can start to press the trainers for a more detailed accounting. I just gathered from this lengthy discussion that many thought the grooms DO get some or all of the daycare money, and I wanted to let you know that 'taint so!

Laurie

Black Market Radio
Nov. 24, 2003, 01:32 PM
Well, they SHOULD get the money, after all, they are the ones doing the work!!!

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

AAJumper
Nov. 24, 2003, 03:50 PM
At our barn we do it a little differently. If we bring a groom from home, my trainer pays him extra money in addition to his salary at home, and that is split among the exhibitors. That way, the groom will get extra money and doesn't have to rely on individuals to tip. Basically, my trainer is charging us for the tipping, and yes, it does go directly to the guys. We don't pay an additional day care fee. And since there may be more than one guy, the money is evenly divided. We do not assign horses to grooms. In addition, I help out however I can. Usually my friends and I hang out at the show all day and at the end of the day we all go back and help feed, blanket, etc.

Sometimes we hire grooms that go from horse show to horse show grooming....sort of like independent contractors. Basically you call one of the "head" guys and either he will do it or he will hook you up with some guys, usually a brother or cousin or friend. Those guys charge $40/day plus they expect $10/showday tips. And we pay them directly, usually cash.

Black Market Radio
Nov. 24, 2003, 03:56 PM
AAJ, If they expect a $10.00 a day tip, why don't they just charge $10.00 more?

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
But I can handle the perile!
No you can't, it's too perilous!

Hopeful Hunter
Nov. 24, 2003, 04:25 PM
One thing I'd like to clarify is what, precisely, we mean by the word "tip" in this context.

To me, it means cash remuneration. Period.

But I see some posts mentioning lunch, or gifts or such. To me, that's NOT a tip -- that's just courtesy.

I always try to remember if someone is helping me (I don't have th benefit of a real groom, but sometimes have a barnmate to help) to be courteous. If it's hot, bring a cold drink; if it's cold, bring something warm. If you know it's someone's birthday, depending on funds at least give a card and if you can, a gift. For example, when my trainer called me last year the Friday after Thanksgiving, in the evening, to tell me my horse had gotten his head sliced open and she tried to sponge it but he wouldn't let her catch him I made damn sure I brought her a hot cup of coffee when I rushed over there. She was nice enough to stay late and try to catch my horse, and waited until I arrived to see if I needed her help. I saw the coffee as the least I could do, but I didn't "tip" her in cash for that.

So.....it sounds to me like many of us are confused about where all the money is going in terms of grooming/daycare/boarding fees - which I know I am, and would love to have clarified. But it also seems that all of us acknowledge the people around our horses, there's just some difference of opinion about cash tips and the appropriateness/necessity of them. Yes?

TSWJB
Nov. 24, 2003, 05:13 PM
jrjumpermom
Working Hunter
posted Nov. 23, 2003 01:53 PM
Again,

Please tell me what my "daycare" is for. If it is not to pay the groom who is doing the daycare duties, then who is getting it. And if he is not getting it why not a thread making sure the money goes to where it is supposed to NOT saying I should pay more since the money I already paid didnt get to where it was intended to. I am just really confused. I am not doubting the need to pay an appropriate salary for work done, I thought I WAS.

I agree with you jrjumpermom. What is the 50 –100 day care money being paid for. Shavings are billed to the customer separately. The food should be included in board since most people are paying board at home. So where is all this money going, that the grooms are slaving away barely making minimum wage. I don’t understand. I did the math previously. 100 a day x 4 horses = 400 a day x 6 times a week = 2,400 dollars. And the groom may come home with 75 a day x 6 days = 450 a week. What happens to the other 1,950!
Some people can afford to tip and pay 100 a day. Some people can barely pay 100 a day. Some people like myself chose to groom my horse myself (partly for the money and partly because I don’t do many away shows and I don’t have that much time to spend with my horse and so I really enjoy doing the work and spending the time with my horse. SORRY my old trainer could never understand this. And yes she is my old trainer now because of her attitude.)
Anyway I do believe that if someone is not being paid enough then they should be compensated for properly by the customers tipping the grooms. But then the day care money would be what 20 a day? I don’t believe it is the customers responsibility to make up pay by tipping if they are paying 100 a day in daycare money. I think the grooms are being taken advantage of. I think tipping should be reserved for going above and beyond the call of duty. And yes I show appreciation to people that really help me out!

ESG
Nov. 24, 2003, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumpin'Fool:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:Who isn't taking out for taxes? If you know that is happening, one call to the IRS would fix that. Every barn I worked for took out taxes and SS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I should have said, after taxes, not tax free.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Housing - as mentioned above, a "group living" situation. Not exactly conducive to setting up housekeeping as you might want to live.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are two houses on the farm, one occupied by two grooms, one occupied by three. It's certainly not a group living situation. I have always had roommates. I struggle to see the difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Cellphone - for the trainer's benefit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, but it's still a free cell phone with unlimited calls. I pay for my own.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Per diem - it should never COST employees to have to go on the road. Usually, it is not their choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not, but when the grooms put their meals on the barn's tab, or customers bring lunch... When I groomed, I pocketed a good portion of my per diem. And it IS their choice, otherwise, they would have a different job.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now, to pay for a car, car insurance, health insurance, medical/dental NOT covered by insurance, and IRA or similar retirement, and, if they DO want to have a life of their own, a house (rent or buy), food, clothes, and other expenses, doesn't leave much left.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With salaries of 22 to 40,000, out of which you don't have to pay rent or mortgage, you're joking, right? I am self-employed and shudder to think how long I went without health insurance. At two farms I worked at, I had the opportunity to buy into a group plan for a fairly reasonable price. The items you describe are wanted/needed by everyone. There are many employees in service industries no one even thinks to tip.

Laurie, I respect the heck out of everything you've done, as well as how hard most grooms work. I don't tip the counter girl at McDonald's. I don't tip the butcher. I don't tip the bank teller. None of these people are making as much as the better paid grooms but I don't feel it's my responsibility to make up their salary differences, either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very, very well said. I completely agree. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

JAGold
Nov. 24, 2003, 06:32 PM
Regarding per diem...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumpin'Fool:
And it IS their choice, otherwise, they would have a different job.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is a really absurd comment. The logic excuses all sorts of abuses by employers, on the grounds that if the employees don't want to deal, they can quit. By that logic, no need to protect the jobs of women on maternity leave -- they can just quit their jobs if they want to have kids. No need to require manufacturers to control the noise and toxins in a work enviornment -- if employees don't like the risk, they can go work elsewhere. We as a society have decided that employees do need certain protections. You can debate what types of protections are needed, but your logic dismisses the concept of sheltering employees at all.

Also, it is common practice for professionals to receive per diem when required to travel for work; the government publishes the schedule its reimbursements are based upon. Why shouldn't grooms receive the same consideration provided other professional required by their bosses to travel and incure additional expenses? --Jess

slainte!
Nov. 24, 2003, 07:54 PM
the word TIP = to insure proper service

i groomed on the A circuit for a decent barn. i worked 7 days a week, 12-14 hours per day and i made about $100/day (mostly less, think $85). that hourly rate sucks. i paid for my own food, but my housing was provided for.

when people showed appreciation to me through tips, it seriously helped me threw my day.

if you've never worked as a groom, you have NO idea how mentally, physically, and emotionally burning it is.

show your groom some love, through them a $20, or buy them lunch. i never had time to get to a food tent to buy myself lunch

-Liz
"The sight of that horse did something to me I've never quite been able to explain. He was more than tremendous strength and speed and beauty of motion. He set me dreaming" - Walt Morey

Ineptly
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:10 PM
Any groom that works for me would be fired in a heartbeat if he ever accepted a tip from MY clients. I'm the BNT, that $ is MINE.

SuperPony
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:20 PM
TIP: To Insure Promptness.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifSorry to nitpick. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway, that's all I really have to add except that I dislike tipping because it always makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong, whether I tip or not. How much? When? Are the grooms already getting paid enough? If not and I'm already paying my day fees, so am I responsible?

Some people at my barn tip at shows, others do not. One particular family doesn't do day care (tacking up, bathing, etc.) but still tips the grooms, even though they're not being paid to help and therefire aren't helping. At the last barn I was at, several girls paid the regular grooms an extra $200 or so per month to add extra shavings to their horses stalls. Me, I never really figured this stuff out.

I figure my trainer will let me know if I ever have to tip. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Linny
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:36 PM
Jumpin' Fool, a couple of questions...
1. How mamy grooms are making 22 to 40K a year? I can see the lower end but not the high. Remember, to make this stellar salary they are working 6 days a week 52 weeks a year. Some very high end barns may have grooms that well paid but they are very rare.

2. If they live on the barn grounds they likely share a house. This is hardly conducive to personal relationships/family life. If you have roomates thats one thing but when you want to get married and raise a family... Of course, you could quit and get another job. This leads to point

3. I dont want to offend but MOST people who are "career" grooms dont have tons of different options. I know there are many current and former top "A" show grooms here. From what I gather most are/were female, true horse lovers who many times groomed to support their horse habit. Most didn't consider grooming a career. I have to assume that if you with a very high end barn that you may have had ambitions for a career in training and grooming was part of the college course.
Look at most of the grooms you see at shows. For most, English is a second language. Most dont have education to enter the corporate world. The best many grooms could find would be low level service jobs like those at Walmart of McDonald's. At least on the circuit they get to meet some well off people who (one might think) might take a bit better care of them than Burger King.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

AAJumper
Nov. 24, 2003, 08:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
AAJ, If they expect a $10.00 a day tip, why don't they just charge $10.00 more?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know...I thought it was weird too. They only expect that on days that the horse shows. I've never really talked to them about it, that's just what my trainer told me. So I'm not sure that they specifically said that when they were hired or what exactly was said.

SupaGoo
Nov. 24, 2003, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AAJumper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
AAJ, If they expect a $10.00 a day tip, why don't they just charge $10.00 more?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know...I thought it was weird too. They only expect that on days that the horse shows. I've never really talked to them about it, that's just what my trainer told me. So I'm not sure that they specifically said that when they were hired or what exactly was said.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because if its a tip than you could possibly give them more than the $10 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Kristen

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 25, 2003, 05:31 AM
I've never had to pay a groom, as I'm one of those poor horse people that has to do it myself. I only have one question. Doesn't the problem seem to be that these grooms are not making enough $$$? Why doesn't everyone fight for higher wages if they believe their skilled grooms deserve more money? If a person feels they should tip, fine. It should not be a requirement for one to do so.

When my husband started his first job after college, he was a lowly farmhand. Made 16,500/yr and soon after we were married and had our first child. Was he skilled labor? Yes, he was. He had a college degree in agriculture, and very quickly was the ONLY one that could run the computerized combine (including his idiot manager who was making about 80,000 plus house, full benefits). My husband was also sent on frequent "errands" to fix boss's wife's car, get the snake off their front porch, and pick up things at WalMart for boss before his big vacation (which he took at least 4 times/yr). He worked extremely long hours. His REGULAR hours were 6am - 6pm Mon through Fri and every other weekend. Most times of the year he was at work until after 9pm and worked EVERY weekend. Oh, and holidays were no exception. Did anyone TIP him??? No. But his hard work paid off. Now HE gets to be the manager (different place), although he still works the same crazy, long hours. Now, my point is, if there is no place for these grooms to move up and make more money, that is the problem. But most know that going in. Life decisions, people. I have often said that when hiring employees, we get what we pay for. That is obviously not the case here, from what I've read on this board. There are obviously people making a sacrifice to do what they love. But it is up to them to take care of themselves. If they cannot do it on their salary, they need to make other arrangements, not depend on other hard-working folks (who are already paying a fee for their services) to make up the difference.

BTW, I do not count Christmas gifts, bonuses, etc. as tipping. To me, tipping is throwing $ at someone after they have done a job.

ESG
Nov. 25, 2003, 05:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelladonnaLily:
I've never had to pay a groom, as I'm one of those poor horse people that has to do it myself. I only have one question. Doesn't the problem seem to be that these grooms are not making enough $$$? Why doesn't everyone fight for higher wages if they believe their skilled grooms deserve more money? If a person feels they should tip, fine. It should not be a requirement for one to do so.

When my husband started his first job after college, he was a lowly farmhand. Made 16,500/yr and soon after we were married and had our first child. Was he skilled labor? Yes, he was. He had a college degree in agriculture, and very quickly was the ONLY one that could run the computerized combine (including his idiot manager who was making about 80,000 plus house, full benefits). My husband was also sent on frequent "errands" to fix boss's wife's car, get the snake off their front porch, and pick up things at WalMart for boss before his big vacation (which he took at least 4 times/yr). He worked extremely long hours. His REGULAR hours were 6am - 6pm Mon through Fri and every other weekend. Most times of the year he was at work until after 9pm and worked EVERY weekend. Oh, and holidays were no exception. Did anyone TIP him??? No. But his hard work paid off. Now HE gets to be the manager (different place), although he still works the same crazy, long hours. Now, my point is, if there is no place for these grooms to move up and make more money, that is the problem. But most know that going in. Life decisions, people. I have often said that when hiring employees, we get what we pay for. That is obviously not the case here, from what I've read on this board. There are obviously people making a sacrifice to do what they love. But it is up to them to take care of themselves. If they cannot do it on their salary, they need to make other arrangements, not depend on other hard-working folks (who are already paying a fee for their services) to make up the difference.

BTW, I do not count Christmas gifts, bonuses, etc. as tipping. To me, tipping is throwing $ at someone after they have done a job.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another beautifully written and thought out post. I agree completely. You said exactly what I was trying to. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Halfhalting
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:24 AM
I agree, ESG. Bella did a wonderful job.

lauriep
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:58 AM
Thanks, Linny, you made excellent points. I would add, Jumpin' Fool, that your roomates are YOUR choice. Not so in a "community living" situation (I've lived in MANY). You live with whoever is on the farm, sometimes ALL of them, sometimes as few as one. But that doesn't make it a DESIRABLE situation, nor does it allow you to begin to accumulate the normal things one does as you mature: furniture, kitchen items, appliances. Oh, you CAN accumulate them, but only if you want to let everyone else in the house use them too. And strangers don't have the same respect for YOUR possessions that you do.

Per diem is SOP for any industry that requires you to travel. So is lodging on the road. And it is NOT voluntary to travel if you work for a show barn.

I know of NO grooms that make $40K a year. Most average, I suspect, in the low $20's. Hardly a salary that provides more than basic level of living, much less an opportunity to save.

As I said before, tipping is and should be optional. But owners and riders should not be under any false illusions about how much their caretakers get paid, and where the infamous daycare money does NOT go...

Laurie

SydneyS
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:59 AM
There is a place to go for some high end grooms... as trainers. The two that come to mind are Frank Madden and Russell Frey - how successful are they now?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

dcm
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AAJumper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
AAJ, If they expect a $10.00 a day tip, why don't they just charge $10.00 more?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know...I thought it was weird too. They only expect that on days that the horse shows. I've never really talked to them about it, that's just what my trainer told me. So I'm not sure that they specifically said that when they were hired or what exactly was said.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My dtr's trainer also told me $10/day for both grooms combined (they split tips) was a good figure to start with. IMHO, we all have a strong emotional attachment to our horses and I am sure no one would disagree that we all want the best care possible. I look at tipping our grooms as making it a bit more personal between us as owners and the grooms at shows where we frequently number 12+ horses. Both our grooms are juniors who sometimes show in a few classes per show. Its when these grooms are willing to go outside of their normal range of duties (feed, water, muck, remove leg wraps for mandatory daycare) because they are personally aware of our needs that deserves a tip. This is what I would deem a job well done above expectations. Knowing that they will receive a generous tip makes them more aware of my dtr and her horse, and therefore makes it personal. It also makes my dtr and I more appreciative of the grooms by paying them personally. Otherwise, you have just another laborer working at their job. I, for one, do not want someone to consider the care of our horse a job.

We also tip these same two girls for hacking our horse when we are out of town, or for caring for injuries/skin conditions/etc when we cannot be there every day.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

lauriep
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:06 AM
Add John, subtract Frank. I recall that Frank was mostly a working student, not a full time groom.

So, "three" advanced to careers as trainers. That is a tremendous percentage of advancement!!!! Get real! That is NOT an option for 99.9% of the people out there grooming. John Madden is the ONLY trainer I know of that does not have a riding background. And other than him, I don't think riders are likely to go to train with someone who can't help them walk a course! Not a realistic scenario, IMO.

There are a few others out there who have "moved on", or up, due to marriage, experience (Karen is now an FEI steward and equine massage therapist), or barn managers for high class operations. But again, the numbers are VERY low.

Laurie

Midge
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:13 AM
JAGold, I took laurie's comment to mean the grooms didn't have a choice about going on the road or not. Not about having a choice to take a per diem.

From my standpoint, there are two-ish types of grooms. Those who are horsemen and those who are the aforementioned 'unskilled labor.' Horsemen are worth their weight in gold, everyone knows it and they get paid accordingly. Unskilled labor is unskilled labor, no matter what industry and they get paid accordingly.

I agree with the point about tipping the bank teller or the butcher. We as horse lovers tend to romanticize the job as if it is a higher calling. To some doing the job, perhaps it is. But I am also sure many people feel their jobs are a higher calling and are also underpaid and tipless.

ESG
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
.

So, "three" advanced to careers as trainers. That is a tremendous percentage of advancement!!!! Get real! That is NOT an option for 99.9% of the people out there grooming.

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, sounds like show business to me. I heard a statistic several years ago that of the millions of people who call themselves "actors", only 5% actually make enough money to pay the bills doing only that (and of course, we all know who they are, and they make a lot more money than we ever will!). So since horse showing is a form of show business as well as being a sport and an art form, why should it be any different? It is the same with any industry that has glamour and an attractive, unusual lifestyle (read "non-office job" here); there are always more aspirants than there are positions available, thus enabling trainers/barn owners to pick and choose those best qualified and pay them basically what they like. Is it fair? No, I don't think so. Will it change? Probably not, unless you have grooms unionized as other groups of laborers have been. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

lauriep
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:30 AM
I would hardly call a groom's job part of the "showing" end of the business...

All of that is beside the point. The question was about tipping, do they need it, should it be mandatory, and so forth. My answer was that yes, grooms are generally underpaid, yes they CERTAINLY need and appreciate additional income, and no, it should never be mandatory, and no, your daycare money does not go into the grooms' pockets.

Be informed riders and owners, question your trainers on how the money you pay is spent/distributed and go from there!

Laurie

Celebrity
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:37 AM
When I was heavy into showing I had one groom that came with me everywhere... my parents paid her great, got her own room in hotels, food, etc.. and at the end of the season gave her a very generous "bonus" for putting up with me..hahaha (I was only 11-13 then)
I tipped a braider once.. my horse was extemely bad and it took forever yet she did an amazing job and I felt that the time she took was more than anticipated so I gave her extra to apologize for my horse.. My barn manager/owner I just buy an xmas gift for and add some extra onto decemeber's board check.. And besides that I only tip my hairdresser and servers(because I waitress myself and I LOVE the tips!)

Holsteiner Clique!
http://home.cogeco.ca/~patm/NOVA2.htm

Policy of Truth
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:43 AM
I'm not going to say anything more about tipping, but I DO agree that this job is a choice. You know going in that it doesn't pay well, and the concept of advancement is not a reality at most facilities.

It's not that I don't want to see people be treated correctly, but please don't consider yourself stuck in your job. If you love it, do it! But don't complain that the average person doesn't believe the low 20's is fair for your job. I don't think anyone is saying that your work isn't hard...but that's manual labor.

I think it's unfair to say you want to do a certain job, and not accept the downsides (pay). I've seen too many people come up from extreme poverty, and make more money than I've thought of making, to believe you can't make money. But like most Americans, that means working in a higher paid job that you may not be absolutely inlove with.

Either way, it's a choice, and it's a sacrafice...you either get paid a lot to do a job you're ok with, or you may get paid a little to work a job you LOVE.

Lord Helpus
Nov. 25, 2003, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Add John, subtract Frank. I recall that Frank was mostly a working student, not a full time groom.

So, "three" advanced to careers as trainers. That is a tremendous percentage of advancement!!!! Get real! That is NOT an option for 99.9% of the people out there grooming. John Madden is the ONLY trainer I know of that does not have a riding background. And other than him, I don't think riders are likely to go to train with someone who can't help them walk a course! Not a realistic scenario, IMO.

There are a few others out there who have "moved on", or up, due to marriage, experience (Karen is now an FEI steward and equine massage therapist), or barn managers for high class operations. But again, the numbers are VERY low.

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Laurie, we cannot forget Kevin Noyes! He became an assistant trainer in California and then moved on to coach a junior to a top 5 ribbon in the Maclay finals.

What became of Kevin?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

lauriep
Nov. 25, 2003, 08:48 AM
He is back on the east coast, last I heard, and in the restaurant business, I think. I knew he had worked for Karen Healey, but didn't know that he had done so well. Yay, Kev-Kev!!

Laurie

Janet
Nov. 25, 2003, 09:44 AM
While the numbers are still low, I can add another one. Patty Peckham, now co-owner and o-trainer (with Molly Flaherty) of Arcadia Farm in Northern Westchester NY. She rode (mostly Pony Club) as a junior. But when she finished high school, she became a groom (definitely not a "working student", she didn't get to ride AT ALL for many years) for Gene Estep. Then moved up through barn manager to trainer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Add John, subtract Frank. I recall that Frank was mostly a working student, not a full time groom.

So, "three" advanced to careers as trainers. That is a tremendous percentage of advancement!!!! Get real! That is NOT an option for 99.9% of the people out there grooming. John Madden is the ONLY trainer I know of that does not have a riding background. And other than him, I don't think riders are likely to go to train with someone who can't help them walk a course! Not a realistic scenario, IMO.

There are a few others out there who have "moved on", or up, due to marriage, experience (Karen is now an FEI steward and equine massage therapist), or barn managers for high class operations. But again, the numbers are VERY low.

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

JAGold
Nov. 25, 2003, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
JAGold, I took laurie's comment to mean the grooms didn't have a choice about going on the road or not. Not about having a choice to take a per diem.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So did I. Because they don't have a choice about going on the road, they should get a per diem. Just like other professionals who don't have a choice about going on the road get a per diem.

I was objecting to the idea that grooms can "choose" to not go on the road (and incure additional expenses) by quitting their jobs. We don't expect other professionals to make that choice, so it's not fair to expect it of grooms. --Jess

ESG
Nov. 25, 2003, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
I would hardly call a groom's job part of the "showing" end of the business...

Oh, you didn't have much to do with the shows when you were grooming? Wow, did I ever misinterpet your posts, then.................. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif


Laurie, I would think you of all people would know just how "show business like" the entire horse world really is. Or did I miss something?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

buryinghill2
Nov. 25, 2003, 01:08 PM
LH-
Kevin Noyes was my VERY first friend in the horse business. Kevin, Carl Davis and Martha Bowen were my first real buddies on the circuit.

lauriep
Nov. 25, 2003, 01:12 PM
Grooms are as involved with the show as grips, stage lighters, prop people and stage hands are. Our work goes on behind the scenes, is NEVER glamorous, and the grooms get little, if any, credit. When results are listed, nowhere do you see "Caretaker: Laurie Pitts" alongside the names of owner, trainer, rider. Nor do the grooms recieve any monetary gain from wins, unless they are fortunate enough to work for an extremely generous trainer, which most are not.

THAT was my point which you clearly chose to miss. We are not talking about the "actors" of the horse show world here.

BH2, I hear from Carl every so often, and of course, Martha is still "doin' it."

Laurie

buryinghill2
Nov. 25, 2003, 01:13 PM
When John Madden came to work for us in Fla. the first year, I taught him how to put a halter on and muck a stall. As usual, we didn't have enough help. Frank told us his brother wanted to come down to Florida, but "knew nothing" about horses. We said send him down, we'll take anyone! I guess the rest in history.

lauriep
Nov. 25, 2003, 01:17 PM
I remember it well!

Laurie

MHM
Nov. 25, 2003, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:

Nor do the grooms recieve any monetary gain from wins, unless they are fortunate enough to work for an extremely generous trainer, which most are not.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll just throw this in here. A friend of mine used to work for somebody who had good horses, but was not rolling in dough, so the weekly paycheck was not huge. HOWEVER, when one of those horses got sold or won a GP, my friend got a double paycheck!

You can be quite sure that she did everything in her power to be sure those horses went well when it counted! Nothing like a little extra incentive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bear in mind, he's the only person I've EVER heard of to be so generous!

Midge
Nov. 25, 2003, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAGold:I was objecting to the idea that grooms can "choose" to not go on the road (and incure additional expenses) by quitting their jobs. We don't expect other professionals to make that choice, so it's not fair to expect it of grooms. --Jess<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone thinks grooms can choose to go on the road or not. That's pretty much the job! If you don't want to go on the road, then you definitely should not be a groom. In that case, it is a choice and anyone travelling for someone else's benefit should get a per diem.

JAGold
Nov. 25, 2003, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAGold:I was objecting to the idea that grooms can "choose" to not go on the road (and incure additional expenses) by quitting their jobs. We don't expect other professionals to make that choice, so it's not fair to expect it of grooms. --Jess<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone thinks grooms can choose to go on the road or not. That's pretty much the job! If you don't want to go on the road, then you definitely should not be a groom. In that case, it is a choice and anyone travelling for someone else's benefit should get a per diem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, we are saying the same thing. Here's my original post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAGold
Regarding per diem...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Jumpin'Fool:
And it IS their choice, otherwise, they would have a different job.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is a really absurd comment. The logic excuses all sorts of abuses by employers, on the grounds that if the employees don't want to deal, they can quit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jumpin'Fool stated that grooms do have a choice -- they can quit their jobs if they don't like the requirements. I objected to that statement. I went on to say that grooms were required to travel. Other professionals who are required to travel get per diem, so grooms should too. I'm sorry that you found my posts confusing, but I'm pretty sure we are on the same side, here. --Jess

sesroh
Nov. 25, 2003, 04:01 PM
I can't get over this thread!

I have heard comments on day care fees being outrageous and that it is "not my job" to pay the groom when I am paying through a day care fee and he should be compensated. But haircuts can also be outrageous! Do you not tip your stylist because the price of your latest 'do was expensive? Or do you not tip your waitress because you felt that you paid enough through the actual cost of the food!?!?! IMO, tipping grooms at shows is right up there with tipping a waitress or a stylist. Mandatory. A waitress is only paid a nominal salary by the restaurant. Although grooms (hopefully) make more than the two dollars and some odd cents per hour waitress salary, for the work they do, their income still deserves to be supplemented with a little something extra. And they aren't just delivering a steak to your table, their taking care of your living, breathing horse!

Just as you realize that the money from the pricey dinner you just enjoyed is not going into the waitress' pocket but rather the restaurant's, so should you realize that the majority of those day care fees are going into the trainer's pockets.

I don't understand why people who spend $1000+ (and in many cases much more) to go to a show for a weekend are complaining about throwing the grooms even an extra $20, saying "it's not my job to pay them." Life isn't fair. Do the right thing. Anyone who can afford to go to a show can give a little extra something to the grooms and never miss it! Give something to the good people working so hard to take care of your horses.

Putting on flame retardant suit!

Edited to sound nicer!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by sesroh on Nov. 26, 2003 at 08:35 AM.]

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 25, 2003, 05:05 PM
OK, Sesroh...I see where you're coming from (sort of) but where does it end? Should we tip farriers and vets (well, I guess they make plenty, don't they http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif...what IS the salary cut-off for tips?)? How about the nurse at my kid's school? I KNOW she doesn't make much (think low 20's here), she's definitely skilled labor AND she's taking care of my precious child. Oh, and my kid's schoolbus driver. Definitely an important job. For that matter, maybe I should throw a $50 their teacher's way at every parent-teacher conference as EVERYONE knows they don't make enough. Oh, and y'know what? That police officer that gave me a speeding ticket some years back? I knew I should've given him an extra $20 for his dedicated service in keeping the streets safe from my lead-foot. And all for low pay. (Maybe not-guess that could have been taken the wrong way). Anyway, if I followed your logic, I'd be bankrupt tipping everyone in my life that is already getting paid to provide a service for me. People SHOULD know going into a profession what the standard pay is. And many of these people are wonderful, dedicated people who do what they do for low pay simply because it's what they've CHOSEN to do. I commend them, truly. But (hopefully) they have other abilities and options if they decide the pay is just not enough. Tip for exceptional service, or if you feel it's important to do so. But mandatory? Hell no.

sesroh
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Tip for exceptional service, or if you feel it's important to do so. But mandatory? Hell no. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel as though it is mandatory to tip when I go into a restaurant. If the service is bad, I tip A LOT less. However, I have NEVER left an establishment without leaving a tip.

FYI...most teachers, bus drivers, police officers make a lot more per hour than a groom makes.

Believe me, it is not a personal crusade in my life to subsidize the incomes of ALL those around me who aren't making a lot of money. Tipping does have to end somewhere. However, why does it have to end BEFORE the grooms!?!?! (FYI...I am NOT a groom, I never have worked as one, I just truely appreciate their hard work.) You tip the valet guy, the waitress, the hairstylist and the taxi driver, right!?!?! How did you come to the conclusion that the tipping ended with THESE people!?!?!?

jr
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:08 PM
sesroh,

Well said. I agree.

Belladonna, the way I look at it, you tip for non-professional personal services. Hairdressers, waitresses, maids, AND Grooms etc. These people are doing something to serve me(or my horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) The quality and content of their service varies given their personal attitude, attention to detail, and dedication. Farriers, Vets, trainers etc. are professionals. Just my way of looking at it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

867-5309
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:40 PM
(dread jumping in, dread jumping in)

But must in the name of every groom who has…….

…….picked up sticky, wasp-infested, half-consumed soda cans all day long
……carried Tums around for nervous clients
……”watched” kids “for just a second” for a rider who needs to make one last run to the rest room
……juggled cell phones, jewelry, purses, watches, and sunglasses at the last second at the gate
……quietly consoled or listened a teary parent/amateur after watching or riding a tough class/practice ride
……handed over a cig (seen the price of these lately?)
……shared your Tylenol (or Gatorade, or contact lens solution et al) with a client in immediate need


If only grooming was just show grooming your horse! It is so much more. Grooms are on call for your needs at a show. First and foremost, to meet the needs to prepare a stable and horse to get into the competition. But most grooms will never turn you down for those non-traditional situations that always pop up at shows.

These are the types of things that IMHO, damned-well earn a gratuity. Mandatory, no. But in most cases, very appropriate and these things (and weirder) happen every day, multiple times. When your trainer is at the ring with someone else or on the phone, or teaching a lesson, guess who’s more likely to be there for you in a jam!?

How to teach clients to tip? Educate them ion writing and in person on what show grooming entails. Explain that grooms are paid a daily rate, and in addition, industry-wide a gratuity can be considered appropriate for any of the many ways a groom will frequently go out of their way to make a personal connection to get you extra prepared to show at your best.

Over and out! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Lighten up, Francis." -Stripes

SydneyS
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:51 PM
I guess if I needed someone other than my husband to provide those services, I would DEFINITELY tip them generously.

But since he already gets his tip...

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 25, 2003, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sesroh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Tip for exceptional service, or if you feel it's important to do so. But mandatory? Hell no. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel as though it is mandatory to tip when I go into a restaurant. If the service is bad, I tip A LOT less. However, I have NEVER left an establishment without leaving a tip <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also always tip waitpersons. And frequently more than the required 20% when the service is especially good. When grooms start making the same minimum wage as waitstaff, I'll begin tipping them also.

Lord Helpus
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
I guess if I needed someone other than my husband to provide those services, I would DEFINITELY tip them generously.

But since he already gets his tip...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Shee-it! The last time I tipped Alejandro, I gave him a $20. I forgot I had an option.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

findeight
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:05 PM
Boy, the demands of "real' life have kept me off this one till now.

My trainer pays and provides for her professional staff well, nonetheless it is expected that grooms get a $10 per show day tip. This is more then fair for those that get up a 4am and work til 8pm providing a service to me, the owner of a dreaded white mare..who bites. What a small drop in the vast show charge bucket is that extra tip that covers care those days I am not there? I tip $50 per show week, even when I'm not there but the 2 show days, and I wish it could be more.
If it's just a 2 or 3 day show I'll still kick in at least $40 for shivering every pre dawn cleaning that green goo off my pig of a mare.

Barn manager? NO. Why? But they get a little something at Christmas.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sesroh:
FYI...most teachers, bus drivers, police officers make a lot more per hour than a groom makes.

Believe me, it is not a personal crusade in my life to subsidize the incomes of ALL those around me who aren't making a lot of money. Tipping does have to end somewhere. However, why does it have to end BEFORE the grooms!?!?! (FYI...I am NOT a groom, I never have worked as one, I just truely appreciate their hard work.) You tip the valet guy, the waitress, the hairstylist and the taxi driver, right!?!?! How did you come to the conclusion that the tipping ended with THESE people!?!?!?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, so WHAT is the cut-off? If you can honestly tell me a set dollar amount than I will concede (probably). Does this dollar amount change for a groom with a wife and 5 children?

And I think you'd be surprised at how much most of those profession's starting salaries are. A school nurse (RN) in public schools makes about 19,000 per yr in this area. Or $8.75/hr. They may get $200-300 in yearling raises. Seriously. Bus drivers? You're kidding, right? There is no meaningful, life-style changing difference between $8/hr and 8.75/hr.

Like I said, if you want to tip grooms, fine. But don't be upset with me because I see it differently. In the whole scheme of life, I see many other professions in the $7-10/hr. range that are of more importance to me. That's all.

And I'm serious about wanting to know about the $ amount cut-off. I think that's important to make your case.

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 25, 2003, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jr:
sesroh,

Well said. I agree.

Belladonna, the way I look at it, you tip for non-professional personal services. Hairdressers, waitresses, maids, AND Grooms etc. These people are doing something to serve me(or my horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) The quality and content of their service varies given their personal attitude, attention to detail, and dedication. Farriers, Vets, trainers etc. are professionals. Just my way of looking at it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can respect that viewpoint, even if I don't agree with it. I just don't see the "they're not making enough money" viewpoint.

superman
Nov. 25, 2003, 08:40 PM
Ah its nice to be back....
how do you think the situstion should be handled tswjb?

superman
Nov. 25, 2003, 08:45 PM
In reply tipping does have to end somewhere---
but lets see, someone making between 50 and 75 a day for a 15 hrs is making between 4.50 and 6.50 an hr,,, with no benefits...
like you might tip your waiter, mailman,bellman, or luggage guy at the airport.
depending on the wages,anywhere from 5-20 a day per horseshow day is nice.... but again its all relative to what you are paying in groom fees and what they are recieving... sometimes an added occasional gift is nice

Downpour
Nov. 25, 2003, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sesroh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Tip for exceptional service, or if you feel it's important to do so. But mandatory? Hell no. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel as though it is mandatory to tip when I go into a restaurant. If the service is bad, I tip A LOT less. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay I have one question for anyone here that feels the same as sesroh (Not picking on you sesroh but your post is a good example for mwa to use)...

I think it's fine it you want to tip and all, but WHY would you tip even a LITTLE for POOR SERVICE?
On the few occasions that I go to a hair-stylist to have my hair done up, I will pay a tip; but only if a good job was done. The same goes for waiters and waitresses. If you give me good service I will tip, even with my low income, as hansomely as I am able too, however, if you give me poor service, I will not give you a penny.

If one tips, even a small amount, for poor service, isn't one encouraging these people to continue providing bad service?

Short Story:

For my 18th b-day I saved up a bunch of money (remember that $20/month) to take out family and friends to a very nice restaurant dinner. I made reservations in advance and clarified that the evening was to go smoothly and be enjoyable for all of my guests. The evening was nothing short of a disaster. First, the table was set up ahead of time, but was short by four plates/silver wear (remember I made arrangements in advance). Next, my guests did not recieve what they wished to have (e.x - drinks), and what they did recieve came after a very LONG wait (and there was very little business that evening). I believe the drinks FINALLY arrived nearly 60 minutes after our orders had been placed, out appetizers arrived 15 minutes later, and shortly thereafter meals arrived. When I requested re-fills for drinks, the waitress went away and NEVER returned with the drinks. In fact, one of my guests had to go FIND the waitress with his cup, and demand that he get another drink; it took her 10 minutes to do so. One of my guests young children (a 7 year old) had ordered a hamburger; her hamburger was RED, it hadn't even been cooked!!! She ate half of it before telling her mom it didn't taste very good, and mom finally discovered her burger was completely raw and uncooked... (Potentially poisoning her daughter). The waitress refused to deal with it, and we had to track down the manager to deal with the situation. An apology was made by the manager however the waitress took off and didn't do the rest of her job (and never apologized). I did recieve a discount on my bill for the burger, but there were even more things that ruined the whole evening (like the waitress NOT bringing enough salad and garlic bread for ALL the guests... We had to ration!!!!!) Did I tip? HELL NO.

So I ask again, why would one tip for poor service?

Erin
Nov. 25, 2003, 10:20 PM
Several people posting on this thread need to refer to BB Rule #1: Be nice, be respectful, be polite.

You're welcome to disagree with what someone says, but be mature enough to do it without the catty comments, please.

Thanks.

sesroh
Nov. 26, 2003, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If one tips, even a small amount, for poor service, isn't one encouraging these people to continue providing bad service?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have worked as a waitress. I have gotten stiffed a few times on a tip. This was not in situations where I believe I provided REALLY bad service. So at the end of the day, I am asking myself, are they just cheap and are people who eat at restaurants and don't tip, did I give really bad service, or maybe they FORGOT to leave a tip. And I always came to the conclusion that they must have "forgotten".

When I got a really small tip, I knew right away it was because I provided bad service. These tips are a wake up call. A lot of times it is actually more frustrating to have a big ticket bill and get left a dollar than to not get tipped at all. I think for bad service it can make more of a statement.

If I were in a situation where the service was as horrible, as mentioned above, I would also go to the manager and resolve my issues this way in lieu of just not leaving a tip. Having management involved will be a lot more helpful and send a bigger message than just not leaving a tip. But then, yes, I would also leave a very small tip, as a final reminder to the waitress that the service sucked.

I do, however, retract my MANDATORY tipping statement. I meant to use that term loosely. I can understand how in extreme circumstances of REALLY REALLY bad service people may not want to tip. (I still do tip but that is just my way of adding commentary on the service.) What I really meant was that you go into a restaurant pretty much knowing that you will leave a tip (barring something disasterous like aforementioned scenario). Even if the service is so-so, a little slow, most people will generally still leave a tip. I have read comments that people only tip for "good" service. I am sure, though, that these people have eaten at restaurants and although the service wouldn't be a disaster, it was not great, they still left a tip. A service was still rendered. Perhaps the tip was smaller.

The real issue is that no one is commenting on here that their groom was awful. Just that they didn't see fit to leave a tip because he should already be compensated. Or that tips should be left for great service, something above and beyond. I guess I thought taking good care of a horse at a show and working long, hard hours, being away from families was above and beyond, even if this is a job they have choosen. Most grooms don't have a choice about going to the show or staying home, unless they don't want their job anymore. And many don't have a lot of other job opportunities waiting for them. I just think that REALLY bad service aside, if the groom does a decent job (and no, I don't think he has to do anything above and beyond to earn the tip, if he does, that's great and will be recognized too, but I still tip the medicore waitress so why not the groom who can get his job done) tipping should be planned for in your horse show expenses. The same way you plan for a tip at a restaurant.

I guess I don't see why reaching in your pocket and showing a little appreciation for someone with even as little as $20 is such a big deal to so many people. That $20 means a lot more to that groom than it does to me and it creates enormous good will.

[This message was edited by sesroh on Nov. 26, 2003 at 09:44 AM.]

Janet
Nov. 26, 2003, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jr:
sesroh,

Well said. I agree.

Belladonna, the way I look at it, you tip for non-professional personal services. Hairdressers, waitresses, maids, AND Grooms etc. These people are doing something to serve me(or my horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) The quality and content of their service varies given their personal attitude, attention to detail, and dedication. Farriers, Vets, trainers etc. are professionals. Just my way of looking at it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think the distinction is not "professional" or not, but employee vs owner.

The employee is paid by an employer. So you have no idea how much of what you pay the employer goes to the employee. You tip the employee to make the point that the money goes to the indvidual, not the business.

Typically vets, farriers, etc., are business owners, not employees. While they certainly have expenses, there is not the same distinction between "the business" and "the employee"..

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Lord Helpus
Nov. 26, 2003, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Typically vets, farriers, etc., are business owners, not employees. While they certainly have expenses, there is not the same distinction between "the business" and "the employee"..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been using the same vet since I have been in Ky. For the first 2 years she was with Rood and Riddle. Then she went out on her own since she did not enjoy reproductive work, and wanted to specialize in lameness work.

She is happier now, but, it is hard to be an independent vet in Lexington. Lexington is home of TB breeding, not performance horses. So I believe that her income took a nosedive when she left R&R.

But, by your standard, I should have tipped her when she was with Rood and Riddle, but not tipped her when she became a sole practitioner?

And, as to the issue of a "professional". Hairdressers must go to beauty school, pass a competency exam and be licensed by the state. Yet, most of us tip for a haircut. So I guess that they are NOT professionals, while farriers (who often learn their trade by apprenticing) are professionals?

I am getting really confused here.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Janet
Nov. 26, 2003, 08:23 AM
Me too.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

findeight
Nov. 26, 2003, 08:42 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ceeleostep:
.... I am at a large barn and am having a bit of a problem. The groom who takes care of my horse was very friendly at first but now does not say a word to me. If I ask him a question, he is very short with his answers,needless to say I try not to ask him for anything. Though I have been unhappy with his work I have never complained to the owner of the barn in fear that he would take it out on my horse.The owner is also not easy to talk to. Others in my barn have moved thier horses to different stalls to get away from this man.
________________________________________________

You MUST complain to the owner of the barn if you are receiving poor service. Is this groom actually bad at his job? or does he just..well...lack interpersonal skills?

If others have moved out of his area there is no way the groom will know exactly who complained, if anybody, and could just figure he wasn't doing a good job.
________________________________________________

The holidays are coming.....Do I tip this guy ?
_____________________________________________

NO.
But go ahead and give cards with a little something to the others..discreetly of course.


Best thing is to let the owner know exactly why you are unhappy with him, you apparently are not alone in this.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Janet
Nov. 26, 2003, 09:10 AM
Maybe he started off friendly because he thought he was going to be gettting a tip, and is now "punishing" you for not tipping?

I doubt it, but it did cross my mind.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

SydneyS
Nov. 26, 2003, 09:27 AM
Not trying to offend anyone, but in the working world "professionals" are those who went to graduate school. Doctors, vets, lawyers, financiers, accountants, etc. are professionals.

I think some of us are using the word to describe individuals whose position is essential and respected. Like professional grooms, farriers, trainers...

Sorry, I just wanted to clarify that the term has a different meaning in different situations.

Albion
Nov. 26, 2003, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> FYI...most teachers, bus drivers, police officers make a lot more per hour than a groom makes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, what IS the average salary for a relatively experienced groom with a big name barn? Out of curiosity, I really don't know -

Like I said earlier, there are professors at my college, in my department (history), who make a little over $26K & $28K a year - granted, they are younger, don't have tenure, etc. - but they are NOT adjunct faculty, and they DO have their PhDs, and they ARE full time. And the sad part is, they are probably THRILLED just to have teaching jobs in academia - god only knows how many other PhDs they beat out to get those positions.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

JAGold
Nov. 26, 2003, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
Not trying to offend anyone, but in the working world "professionals" are those who went to graduate school. Doctors, vets, lawyers, financiers, accountants, etc. are professionals.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you use "professional" only to refer to those with graduate degrees. However, the official, Department of Labor definition of professional occupations that currently governs who is exempt from overtime pay requirements includes four groups of professional: learned professionals, artistic professionals, teachers, and computer professionals. This is the most stringent definition of "professional," and does not require a graduate degree or graduate training for any of the four groups. While grooms would not be classified as professional under this definition (and therefore should be entitled to hourly pay and overtime!), trainers could be classified as professionals under the duties test for teachers.

Also, the Department of Labor has proposed revising the definition of "professional" to include workers who have received "several years of specialized training plus intensive on-the-job training." While I don't agree with the ramifications of this change (because it would deny overtime pay to many workers who should be eligible), it is strongly counter to your definition of professionals as those with graduate degrees.

Granted, these are not the definitions that employers use to define the scope and salary for grooms' jobs, but I don't think your definition of "professional" is any more accurate than that which has been used on this thread. --Jess

PatsyStone
Nov. 26, 2003, 06:11 PM
I mean, Darlings...


Get with the times.

I've been tipping my grooms since the 60's, just like i've been tipping my drug dealers. When you want quality and fast service, you tip. Everyone knows that.

I've been tipping since the swinging 60's, babe!

-----
You only work in a shop, you know. You can drop the attitude.

AAJumper
Nov. 26, 2003, 08:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
Not trying to offend anyone, but in the working world "professionals" are those who went to graduate school. Doctors, vets, lawyers, financiers, accountants, etc. are professionals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly...engineers are considered professionals, and while many do go to graduate school, it is not generally a requirement (at least to get a job in civil engineering). I only have my B.S. but can call myself a professional civil engineer because I have passed the state licensing exam.

findeight
Nov. 27, 2003, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Albion:

So, what IS the average salary for a relatively experienced groom with a big name barn? Out of curiosity, I really don't know -

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hard to say..and the same standards that apply to hourly employees elsewhere do not apply to Agricultural jobs, and a groom gets lumped in here.
Just means it's not automatic overtime and regular breaks.

There are so many different arrangements, some include housing, some include stabling for a couple of horses and some are paid in lesson time and training services.

I would guess that, in a situation where housing is provided, a salary of $600 to $800 may be in the ball park.
If stabling for a horse is invoved along with housing it's going to be less.

Straight out salaried grooms probably get around 15k a year..this can really vary with exact situation and experience.

This is just a guess..but I do know that a real BNT had an assistant trainer for years and years and I overheard that person complaining they still made only 25k a year after all that time. I'd guess a great groom would top out somewhere around that area.

Remember that only the best barns provide any kind of benefits at all and some pay strictly cash under the table. That's why it's so hard to pinpoint.

Whatever they make it's not enough.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

CBoylen
Nov. 27, 2003, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Albion:

So, what IS the average salary for a relatively experienced groom with a big name barn? Out of curiosity, I really don't know -

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would guess that, in a situation where housing is provided, a salary of $600 to $800 may be in the ball park.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I concur. That's what I'm familiar with, although I hear of some very nice (usually private) barns providing saleries above that range, along with benefits and superior housing, and certain well-known grooms require high prices as well. Generally, the barns I've been in have been about midpoint of that range for saleries for grooms, but we were always losing the good ones, or people that we had trained, to barns offering higher wages. It made for a lot of help turnover, and a lot of people 'learning the ropes', so if I had had the authority I think I would have spent the extra money for some security.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

mef
Nov. 30, 2003, 11:20 AM
Well it's been a while since I have decided to check out the message board. WOW. Let me repeat WOW. Understanding that personal attacks are out of the question I will say the ESG from all that I have read has got her head in a very dark little place that probally smells really bad.
As a person who works as a groom and dosen't have to for any other reason than the fact that I LOVE the horses and has show horses (that I own) and is a farm owner(who actually OWNS the farm not just rents it) I have had the opportunity to be on both sides. YOU make it sound as though you think you have worked hard for what you have but my guess is that you have NO idea what hard work really is. I'd love for you to trade places with me, I could use a vacation. My only concern is that I would have no friends when I got back. You might have scared them off. I'll make sure to tell everyone not to tip.
Maybe after some real hard work that is often under appreciated you might change your views on tipping. The last thing I can say to ESG is when you don't tip for FANTASTIC help and a job weel done you get your food spit in. It's a little thing called earning respect and loyality.

[This message was edited by mef on Dec. 01, 2003 at 07:41 AM.]