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View Full Version : Developer proposes moving horses' graves... TOPIC MORPH TO LAND CONSERVATION



hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 18, 2004, 04:18 AM
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/local/10210557.htm

Now, I have to tell you. I can't stand Hamburg Pavilion. It is the most horrible shopping venue in the area and going there is more of a chore than cleaning behind the toilet. It's become even more fun since the developers have dropped a bunch of plastic-coated snout houses in the immediate vicinity.

I guess it's better they move the horses' remains than build a WalMart or whatever over them. Still...

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 18, 2004, 04:18 AM
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/local/10210557.htm

Now, I have to tell you. I can't stand Hamburg Pavilion. It is the most horrible shopping venue in the area and going there is more of a chore than cleaning behind the toilet. It's become even more fun since the developers have dropped a bunch of plastic-coated snout houses in the immediate vicinity.

I guess it's better they move the horses' remains than build a WalMart or whatever over them. Still...

lee.
Nov. 18, 2004, 07:01 AM
This is depressing. Sprawl is a plague, and it's horrible to see what's happening to beautiful countryside here on the East Coast - Virginia, southeastern PA...

And to top it off with moving graves of great racehorses so you can build a mall, and then planting them in the place so folks can gawk at them while eating Chik-Fil-A's and Cinnabons http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Check out the Equestrian Land Conservation Resource...is a great land conservation organization: http://www.elcr.org/.

Sandbarhorse
Nov. 18, 2004, 08:15 AM
Anyone else feel that there are just too many humans in the US? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The saddest parts of that article are the 3300+ homes being built and the fact that this family is already rich from land sales and ground leases. I guess you can't have too much, even if it means destroying your heritage and moving the graves of champions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

caryledee
Nov. 18, 2004, 08:56 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Its so sad...Lexington was so pretty when I lived there. Soon it will look like any other city. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

jetjocky
Nov. 18, 2004, 09:18 AM
Short term profit wins again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Galloway
Nov. 18, 2004, 12:17 PM
They want to integrate the graves so they are more accesible to the public? What are they going to do? Put them in the toy aisle next to the Breyer display?
Another reason to dislike developers. Just how many Wal-marts do we really need in the world.


..and I agree, too many people in the world too.

Smigget
Nov. 18, 2004, 12:28 PM
I HATE development with a passion. Especcially when it's like this. People don't seem to realize that once land is gone, it's gone forever. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 18, 2004, 12:47 PM
You would be stunned at how little public outrage this seems to stir in this area. I think the folks around here have long ago given up on Hamburg. Money talks. Loudly.

Now, I would be REALLY interested in seeing what might happen should the powers-that-be over at Calumet decide it is time to slice-and-dice that primo piece of real estate up. After all, it sits right next to Keeneland. It is an "icon." The white fences are a landmark. Still, it is privately owned.

On a positive note, there is an underswell of support for infill development - converting tobacco warehouses (long empty) to retail or apartments, that type of thing. Now, if only WalMart would open up a downtown store. That would definitely do the trick, wouldn't it?

And I'm wondering, are those horses in coffins? What exactly would they be digging up? Or would they just be moving the markers? And I repeat everyone else's question - where on earth do they think they are going to move them to? Outside of State Line Tack, right next to Barnes and Noble? In the median of one of the hopelessly poorly-planned roads?

Giddy-up
Nov. 18, 2004, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
And I'm wondering, are those horses in coffins? What exactly would they be digging up? Or would they just be moving the markers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wondered that too...especially horses buried in the early 1900's. I understand the horse historical significance, but the developer IS the farm owner (if I am reading the article right) so I guess if he doesn't care about his family's horse cemetary, there isn't much the "public" can do. I guess he feels people will enjoy the "graves" more by a sitting area/park setting rather than covered by asphalt in the middle of a parking lot ("here kids lies a famous racehorse right below our feet").

Sprawl & development are huge issues by us. People want to blame the devloper, but let's look at the farmer--he's the one selling the land & laughing all the way to the bank. We call it "over night millionaire syndrome" & it's fairly contagious once one farmer hears what the farmer down the road sold for.

JSwan
Nov. 18, 2004, 01:37 PM
Farmers don't have much of a choice when they've been planned and zoned out of business. It doesn't matter what you want to do with your land or how much you want to preserve it. Once the big boxes have locked and loaded - you and your community are dead. Period. No going back.

Say goodbye to your local hardware store, dress shop, and decent quiet life, and say hello to "Made in China", streets named after the farms that used to be there, McMansions, lattes and gridlock.

Welcome to the 21st century. Pop a pill, get a book on tape for the 3 hour commute, live on credit cards, have a starter marriage, your own therapist, and a Botox party. Hey - it's the American way...

Glimmerglass
Nov. 18, 2004, 02:33 PM
Here are the graves to be moved http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Images: Grave stones at Hamburg Place (http://www.tbheritage.com/TurfHallmarks/Graves/GraveMattersHamburg.html#Plaudit)

HAMBURG PLACE BURIALS:

John Madden burials:
Thoroughbred Stallions:
Ogden (c. 1894-1923)
Plaudit (c. 1895-1919)
Sir Martin (c. 1906-1930)
Star Shoot (c. 1898-1919)

Thoroughbred Broodmares:
Ida Pickwick (f. 1888-1908)
Imp (f. 1894-1909)
Lady Sterling (f. 1899-1920)
Miss Kearney (f. 1906-1925)
Princess Mary (f. 1917-1926)

Standardbreds:
Hamburg Belle
Major Delmar
Nancy Hanks 1886
Silicon
Siliko

Polo Pony:
Springtime

Preston Madden burials:
Thoroughbred Stallion:
T. V. Lark (c. 1957-1975)
Thoroughbred Broodmare:
Pink Pigeon (f. 1964-1976)

See also: Thoroughbred Times ("Development would move Kentucky Derby winner Plaudit’s grave") (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=50886&subsec=1)

excerpts:

Further development on land that housed the expansive Hamburg Place on the southeast portion of Lexington would require that the gravesites of 18 Thoroughbreds, including 1898 Kentucky Derby winner Plaudit, be moved to make way for a Wal-Mart and Home Depot

John Madden founded the farm as a Standardbred operation and five of the horses buried in the cemetery are Standardbreds, along with one poly pony. The Thoroughbreds buried in the cemetery include 1961 champion turf horse and leading sire T. V. Lark and one of his daughters, stakes winner Pink Pigeon.

JSwan
Nov. 18, 2004, 02:49 PM
Awww....
You know - I was just thinking that we shouldn't be surprised that a country that allows development on major battlefields - where thousands of soldiers died horrible deaths - would approve of moving mere horse's graves.

No respect for the dead, that's for sure.

stegall
Nov. 18, 2004, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sprawl & development are huge issues by us. People want to blame the devloper, but let's look at the farmer--he's the one selling the land & laughing all the way to the bank. We call it "over night millionaire syndrome" & it's fairly contagious once one farmer hears what the farmer down the road sold for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OK, I have to take a HUGE exception to that comment. You need to do some homework. As J. Swan points out, farmers are often forced out by encroching development. What if your farm was suddenly surrounded by Walmart and the condo association, and the neighbor kids think its great to taunt your horses and tresspass on your property?

But, its way more than this. Prices are often not enough to cover expenses. You think the cost of groceries are high, its generally because of the middleman. Many times farmers are only making slightly above cost of production.

Further, the average age of a farmer has increased every year. I believe median age for a farmer is now somehwere around 60. Its not uncommon for said farmer to have children who don't want to take over the business. Would you still be in a labor intensive industry at 60, 70?

Add in the fact that animal rights organizations sink in their teeth whereever they can. The Government makes rules to the point of exasperation, which makes it difficult,expensive, and stressful for farmers to get any work done.

The towns get their pound of flesh by requiring many farms to pay exorbitant property taxes because they view the land owner as a rich source of revenue.

Insurance costs are horrible, ever see the premiums for large farming equipment?

So, what you have is an average population of older people in a very labor intensive job, who are taxed and regulated to death, underinsured and under paid, often taunted and usually blamed for every problem under the sun. They are fighting a tough battle and they know it.

And, once they make the choice to give up, do you expect them to take a lesser amount for their land? Especially since this land is often multigenerational, and probably their bigeest (or only) asset for retirement.

I have personally seen, farmers who have been forced out for various reasons, and many of them WEPT when they gave up their farms. Having seen a 75 year old man howl in dispair made me ashamed that we as citizenss can let such thing happen to the people who feed and cloth us.

I long ago joined the movement which has been promoting purchase of development rights to save active farms from destruction, and I can tell you that there are many farms who have applied for this, and have not yet been purchased because the STATE won't release the funding for the programs. The farmers are trying to save the land, but can't stay afloat long enough to make it into the program.

I definately disagree with your thoughts on "millionare" farmers.

JSwan
Nov. 18, 2004, 03:31 PM
There are even programs trying to match young aspiring farmers to older farmers - just trying to keep the small farm going.

The PDR program is great, as are agricultural and forestal districts, conservation easements - there are a million tools to preserve land.

But heck - in Virginia a locality doesn't have the right to determine its own growth. Stupid Dillon Rule. Comprehensive plans are challenged constantly. Might as well not have one.

It doesn't matter that a person wants to farm, and keep his land, and live a rural life - warts and all. And it doesn't matter that many in the community feel the same way.

Once you have been targeted, you're done. You'll be forced out. You become an anachronism. You can't pay the taxes, farming equipment is atrociously expensive, regulation is killing you - and you work killer, backbreaking days, have to be part veterinarian, mechanic, plumber, accountant, etc.

Every time I see a sign for an auction - I want to cry. Because I know what's happened.

stegall
Nov. 18, 2004, 04:02 PM
Thought I would share this information for all to see.
A few paragraphs from the Farmland at risk “white Paper” published by the Working Lands Alliance; (the link for the entire paper is http://www.workinglandsalliance.org/OtherDocs/White%20Paper.doc)

*******************
As development pressure increases in Connecticut, land prices rise to the point where the agricultural use of land cannot be supported as a prudent investment decision. In Eastern Connecticut, as an example, the average market value for an acre of farmland is $3000. To buy this land would cost a farmer approximately $300 per acre per year in debt service payments financed over 20 years. The average annual net income potential per acre per year for a dairy farmer is approximately $200 (net earnings, not including debt service payments). The debt service payments on the land would be higher than the net income that could be earned farming the land.

Compared to other forms of undeveloped land, farmland is especially desirable for building purposes because it is relatively flat and well drained. The pressure to sell farmland for non-agricultural uses will continue to mount over the next ten years as an unprecedented number of Connecticut farmers reach retirement age. Unless adequate methods are supported to pass on farms to heirs who wish to farm or to sell farmland to other farmers, Connecticut will lose both the land and the farming knowledge these farmers possess.

Moreover, as farms within a farming community are lost to other uses, the remaining farms often become less viable. In farm communities, farmers can share equipment, trade farm products, and support local service providers, such as veterinarians. When agricultural businesses leave the vicinity, farming becomes more difficult and expensive. In addition, nearby development often brings with it the threat of nuisance complaints from new neighbors who are unfamiliar with the odors and noise typical of commercial farm operations. With every farm that is sold for non-agricultural uses, contiguous tracts of farmland are fragmented, creating a domino effect that only hastens the sale of adjoining farmland.

1.Chesmer, Robin, Dairy farmer from Lebanon, CT, conversation 2/7/00. Calculations based on the following assumptions: typical mix of farmland is 60% tillable and 40% woodland; average milk sold per cow is 20,000 pounds per year; each cow requires an average of 2 acres; average net farm earnings are $1.67 per 100 pounds of milk. These assumptions were based on statistics from “Northeast Dairy Farm Summary” prepared by Farm Credit.

2.In 1997, the average age of the Connecticut farmer was 55.5 years. United States Department of Agriculture, National Agricultural Statistics Service, 1997 Census of Agriculture.

3.In a survey of Connecticut dairy farmers, respondents reported that their families had been farming the same piece of land for an average of 85 years. Most of these farmers would like their farms to continue to operate. Over 80% responded that they planned to be in business for 5 years or more, and 42% responded they planned to expand their operations. However, nearly 16% responded that they had talked to a developer within the last 5 years about selling their land. Foltz, Jeremy, Department of Agricultural & Resource Economics, University of Connecticut, Summary Statistics: Connecticut Dairy Farmer Survey, 1999.

Chesmer, Robin, Very Alive, speech at Connecticut Rural Development Council meeting, December 8, 1999.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 18, 2004, 04:18 PM
I think this is turning into a very interesting and educational discussion.

I have to chime in and say don't blame the farmers. I'm running out of people who have actually been to a dairy farm. Not one of the warehouse dairy farms, and actual small family dairy.

I guess we can't be naive enough to expect things never to change. But this type of change is so ugly I can't bear to watch anymore.

stegall
Nov. 18, 2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess we can't be naive enough to expect things never to change. But this type of change is so ugly I can't bear to watch anymore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was at the same point a few years back. I decided I couldn't stand any more. So, I rolled up my pantlegs and jumped into the pool. I have been advocating ever since.

For all those here who lament the fact that we are losing land (and this is in EVERY state I might add), if nothing else, please consider doing just one thing: become a member of those organizations that are out there fighting to stop this travesty. There are many of them. They not only need your dues, but your numbers. When they speak to legislators, they can say that they represent 600, 6,000, 60,000 people who care strongly about this problem.

Don't forget, as they go, we go. Every farm lost resonates. As horse owners, we will eventually feel the pinch, we lose trails, hay and grain prices go up, and we are nore often surrounded by condos instead of other types of agriculture. Sit and think for a minute about how many products you use in your barn that are agricultural in some way. The obvious: hay,grain. How about shavings, and fence boards? leather tack? Cotton wraps? wool blankets? Make a mental list, it may surprise you.

OK, you obviously all know how very passionate I am about this issue. I don't meant to preach to the choir, as I know most here probably do care that this is happening.

So, let me just issue this challenge: for the new year, would you all at least join one organization that is battling this problem?
There are multitudes out there. Many offer great perks too, such as interesting magazines or newsletters, and fun tee shirts http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its too late to save the graves of those great horses, but maybe your dollars could help save something else.....



Oh, and a special round of applause for J Swan, who took responsiblity and set up a conservation program on her farm to provide wildlife habitat, and THEN was nice enough to share with others on COTH so they could do this too.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Glimmerglass
Nov. 18, 2004, 06:05 PM
On the topic of farming and getting those interested in it, Northern Otsego Co. New York has been both promoting and strongly attracting Amish farmers. These are often the younger families who want to farm but have been priced (or indirectly regulated) out from doing so Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Kentucky.

Say what you will about the Amish, but I've met those who have relocated to NY, purchased baked goods from them, and looked at their horses (large draft horses) - all looked fine. I for one enjoy seeing the active farms on the landscape vs. more urban refugees looking to make a quick buck "fixing up" a farm house, razing the barns and asking $1M.

Otsego 2000 is a nonprofit regional environmental planning organization which has in past printed and distributed brochures to the Amish luring them to upstate. (http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2001/03/01/amish.html) So far they have been a good addition to the area and everyone is pleased. (http://www.coopercrier.com/2001/news/stories/09/27/ccamish.html)

Upstate NY farming likely will never return to any success as was seen before the decimating policies of (then) Governor Mario Cuomo (unquestionable the worst governor ever in NY) - however there are still ample amounts of run down and dormant farms across the region http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif More power to those who landbank these farmlands and even more kudos to those who go into farming!

mango1612
Nov. 18, 2004, 06:07 PM
I love developers and developments. That's what paid for my riding, showing, horse care, vet bills, farrier bills, horse farm and on and on. And the same goes for many of my family members, too. This may go for some of you, too. My dad (one of those developers) enjoys and appreciates farmland and agriculture, he'll often comment on how much he loves our horse farm, or going out to his land that he maintains and hunts in a nearby county. His goal in life is not necessarily to pave everything over, he wants to create good quality and attractive developments. So, believe it or not, developers are not money-grubbing men trying to take all your land, they're trying to make a living, and wow, they might also appreciate farms and land, too.

I do agree it's unfortunate that they are moving the graves to make way for a another big box type store, though. But as someone said, it was the farm owner's decision, often times there's a point where the price is right, and its more expensive to try and keep the land as farmland. i have a professor who is moving becuase the area where he lives is becoming so developed that developers offered him so much that he was able to buy two farms in a nearby county. Unfortunate he has to move, but he would be one of those people completely surrounded by development soon, and I don't think he'd enjoy that as much as his two new cattle farms.

Sorry this was long, just my little vent about people jumping all over developers.

JSwan
Nov. 18, 2004, 06:28 PM
I don't mean to jump all over developers as individuals - merely as a cog in the wheel of sprawl. The other cogs are demand by consumers, poor planning and zoning, short sightedness, the big box retailers - it's just such a big old complicated mess - you can't blame only one segment.

However - may I say that the developer lobby is an extremely powerful one in my state - too powerful. It's very disturbing to me as a resident of this Commonwealth. Retailers and developers are constantly winning zoning battles that they never should have won - there are a lot of politics involved. Meaning money.

Thank you stegall - for the applause. But I don't deserve it. The kudos go to the ones who made just conservation programs possible. American Farmland Trust, Ducks Unlimited, the Farm Service Agency/USDA, among others. I merely took advantage of programs that enabled me to do the right thing. Now I just preach about it!

In this case - looking at the article - it looks like this guy is the last holdout in the immediate area. Perhaps he has made a lot of money on land speculation - but it looks like this one is just being boxed in with nowhere to go.

Perhaps he would have been interested in a Charitable Remainder Unitrust to avoid some tax liabilty and still protect his land. But we'll never know.

There are MANY MANY MANY options to selling out - even for land rich cash poor farmers.

Please support conservation programs however you can. Because it ain't farmland without farms.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 18, 2004, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mango1612:
So, believe it or not, developers are not money-grubbing men trying to take all your land, they're trying to make a living, and wow, they might also appreciate farms and land, too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mango1612, I would fully agree some developers are preservationists, naturalists, and very sensitive to the landscape and appreciate scale and respect good design. Of course some others would pave over their own mother's grave for $3.

A perfect example of tasteful and sympathetic housing development (upscale) is Hartley Farms, Harding Twp NJ (http://web.archive.org/web/20040101020259/http://www.hartleyfarms.com/)

The intent of the HARTLEY FARMS MASTER PLAN is to preserve the unique character of this historic property. This plan has received national recognition for its award winning design. The number of homes has been determined by site characteristics rather than zoning regulations. Houses are nestled along existing and new hedgerows, overlooking woodlands and open meadows, connected by walks and bridle trails. They are further protected by common open spaces, narrow roads and conservation easements.

Anyhow I do hope the Wal-Mart is defeated and the horse graves will remain where they are. Wishful thinking I'm sure.

nightsong
Nov. 18, 2004, 06:45 PM
Like J Swan said, Poor Planning and Zoning is a MAJOR part of these farms going up in smoke. You know what? Planning and zoning is done (or NOT done, in MANY cases...) by YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS. Get busy there, folks!!! You CAN stop it!!! Elected officials have TOTAL CONTROL over what is done to land. Really.

AM
Nov. 18, 2004, 06:48 PM
When I was in high school a long time ago, my family was interested in standardbred racing. Every fall we spent a weekend in Lexington to see the futurity at the Big Red Mile. My grandfather, a former history teacher, made it a point to find a different horse farm for us to visit each year. I remember going to visit Nancy Hanks grave more than once.

And after we saw the Pat Boone movie, April Love, and new it had been filmed in Lexington, we racked our brains trying to recognize the farm they had used. It wasn't any we recognized. Then we visited Hamburg Place. My brothers and I were sure this had been the farm in the movie and grooms told us we were right.

EventerAJ
Nov. 18, 2004, 07:14 PM
Oh please. Does Lexington really NEED another Walmart?!! I can think of 3 probably within 10 miles of Hamburg- one on New Circle, one on Richmond Rd, and one on Nicholasville Rd. I have generally given up on Hamburg though. If not Walmart, it will be something else. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


However, I do have to say, *for the most part* the Bluegrass horse country is doing pretty well. My parents are involved in the home building industry outside of Chicago (dad's an excavator, mom does streetlighting assignments). The outskirts of Chicago are going down like WILDFIRE. What was 100s of acres of farmland is now 1000s of houses.

The immediate Lexington urban area is getting crowded. But Versailles Rd is still mile after blessed mile of rolling fields and fences. I don't imagine Calumet, Keeneland, Lane's End, Adena Springs, or Ashford Stud selling out anytime soon. Also, UK owns a good bit of property for its Ag programs. They have developed some of it, but they won't sell it all off.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 19, 2004, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EventerAJ:
But Versailles Rd is still mile after blessed mile of rolling fields and fences. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, take another look. With the exception of Keeneland and Calumet, it's getting a bit crowded along the Lexington-Versailled corridor. A HUGE car dealership just opened up and there are a lot of streets and sidewalks being put in for something...

Part of the problem is taxes. I'm not very educated on this, but don't the cities/counties get more tax income from developed land? So what would be their incentive to discourage development?

BelladonnaLily
Nov. 19, 2004, 04:28 AM
Good developers develop to benefit the community and preserve farm land. My boss is a developer. HATES Walmart, for good reason. Won't bring a Walmart in to any of his developments. Loves farmland and seeks to put all of these people rushing in to our area in smaller places instead of spreading them about on 5-10 acres plots, thereby destroying more farmland. Not ALL development is bad. ALL Walmarts are bad, however. Bad for communities. And they've pushed more landowners out unethically than probably all of the other big box chains put together.

DISCLAIMER: I AM ON SERIOUS DRUGS. WISDO(M TEETH REMOVQAL. I'm sure this was clear as mud.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 19, 2004, 05:05 AM
Okay, I'm game. What conservation group would you all recommend I join? I don't want to throw my money away on pretty packaging, I want it to go to a group that has some teeth on the state and local level.

What's Ducks Unlimited all about anyway?

JSwan
Nov. 19, 2004, 05:24 AM
Ducks Unlimited basically is a group of sportsmen/hunters/conservationsists that protect land. They like land that supports bird/game life. So wetlands, riparian areas, wildlife corridors, etc.

On a national level - take a look at the American Farmland Trust.

Local land trusts are your local contact - I don't know about your area specifically - so I can't help.

lee.
Nov. 19, 2004, 06:39 AM
The Land Trust Alliance maintains a comprehensive database of land trusts working in each state. Check them out here to locate local groups that are fighting development in your area. It's best to support the groups that are made up of your neighbors and are on the ground and fighting for their local land: http://www.lta.org/

The Trust for Public Land is a good organization, too: http://www.tpl.org/

The Equestrian Land Conservation Resource: http://www.elcr.org/

Lastly, the National Trust for Historic Preservation's Rural Heritage Program: http://www.ruralheritage.org/

SimpsoMatt
Nov. 19, 2004, 07:32 AM
Hitch ..

check out the Bluegrass Conservancy (http://www.bluegrassconservancy.org/)

With your new pro-development urban council, they're going to need all the help they can get.

Giddy-up
Nov. 19, 2004, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stegall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sprawl & development are huge issues by us. People want to blame the devloper, but let's look at the farmer--he's the one selling the land & laughing all the way to the bank. We call it "over night millionaire syndrome" & it's fairly contagious once one farmer hears what the farmer down the road sold for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OK, I have to take a HUGE exception to that comment. You need to do some homework. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, but I don't need you to explain my job to me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I work for a Village & the farmers are lined up waiting for the $$$ they know is eventually coming. Some just cash out sooner than others. I understand the farmers angle (cost of equipment, insurance, hard living, encroachment, etc...) as I am very well aware of it growing up around it. I am just tired of people blaming the "big bad mean" developer when it's the farmer's CHOICE to sell. The Village I work for is very anti-sprawl & all for developing "right" compared to towns around us who have made big developmental boo-boos they now have to (unhappily) live with.

I can only speak from what I see & experience. And here we are dealing with farmer's who aren't being "forced" out by any means, but are choosing to sell for a variety of reasons. Farming is not a way of life for some people & there is nobody left to run these "family farms" if none of the kids/grandkids want to. Farming is a hard lifestyle. It's 24/7 work & there's no guarantee of profit depending on that year's crop. So when Developer comes along & offers $$$, I can see why Farmer decides to sell as it is probably pretty appealing.

All I was saying is lets not dump the blame all on the developers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Giddy-up
Nov. 19, 2004, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
Part of the problem is taxes. I'm not very educated on this, but don't the cities/counties get more tax income from developed land? So what would be their incentive to discourage development? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know if this varies from state to state, but yes, by me developed land brings in tax money. The key is to find a balance though between residential & commercial development. If you bring in residential without the commercial to help balance, the taxes will be higher. Of course, commercial development won't happen if there aren't any people to sell to so it's a balance of getting several parties to work together to achieve what is best for the community. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Windsor
Nov. 19, 2004, 08:02 AM
J SWAN--

This issue has really lit a flame under my ass with regard to DOING something to stop sprawl in Virginia.

Would you be able to recommend two or three organizations (either state organizations or national organizations that would be able to do the most good in this state) for me to join? I just want my contribution to go as far as possible.

Thanks.

Bea
Nov. 19, 2004, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giddy-up:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
Part of the problem is taxes. I'm not very educated on this, but don't the cities/counties get more tax income from developed land? So what would be their incentive to discourage development? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know if this varies from state to state, but yes, by me developed land brings in tax money. The key is to find a balance though between residential & commercial development. If you bring in residential without the commercial to help balance, the taxes will be higher. Of course, commercial development won't happen if there aren't any people to sell to so it's a balance of getting several parties to work together to achieve what is best for the community. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it's true developed land might pay more in taxes per acre, the often unrecognized trade-off is that each developed acre costs far more to taxpayers in public services than each undeveloped acre. Ie fire services, public works, road work, schools etc.

The American Farmland Trust has a study on its website for Kent County MD. For every $1 of tax revenue an acre of residential land there generates, $1.05 of expense is incurred. For every $1 of revenue per acre for commercial, $.64 of expense is incurred. For every $1 of revenue generated per acre of farmland or open space, only $.42 of expense is incurred.

In other words, developed land runs at a deficit. And is far more costly to us taxpayers than farmland or open space (which runs at a profit to us taxpayers).

This is why maintaining open space and farmland is so economically vital to us as taxpayers. Besides all the other quality of life issues.

Giddy-up, if your village is anti-spawl. And yet the option for farmers in the village is to sell out to developers. And your village government possibly doesn't understand the above economic equation of developed land vs farmland/open space. It sounds to me as if you could do a great service by developing partnerships with land conservation groups who have access to funds to purchase development rights. Which might allow the farmers to remain on their land, and your village to avoid the high costs of development. I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm dissing your village, which I'm sure is a wonderful place.

It's just that like all the rest of you, I feel so passionately about all of us doing our best to help farmers stay on the land. Not just for aesthetic reasons, but because the long-term economics are so very important. On every level, from the property taxes I pay right up to the unbelievable national trade deficit.

jetjocky
Nov. 19, 2004, 09:02 AM
[QUOTE]I have personally seen, farmers who have been forced out for various reasons, and many of them WEPT when they gave up their farms. Having seen a 75 year old man howl in dispair made me ashamed that we as citizenss can let such thing happen to the people who feed and cloth us.[QUOTE]

As a culture, we should be ashamed of our insatiable hunger for cheaper gizmos and gadgets, McMansions and so forth. This is one of the many reasons that other nations fear, dislike and distrust us.

These tendencies away from a connection to the natural world are what ultimately has driven people who have fed and clothed us for generations off the land. As stegall, I believe it was, noted, you can't just point the finger in any one direction, whether it's the developer, the big-box retail chain, or what. The blame is in the culture that allows these things to blossom unchecked and largely unquestioned.

Also as we take farmland out of production, we begin to cede our method of food production over to who?? the Chinese, the Argentines? And if push ever comes to shove, do you think they will feed Americans first? (Sorry, getting off soapbox now; I know I'm a broken record.)

Let's all make a resolution for the New Year, or even before, to support organizations dedicated to preserving farmland. Let's join stegall and JSwan in the fight to protect the rural way of life.

Windsor
Nov. 19, 2004, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Let's all make a resolution for the New Year, or even before, to support organizations dedicated to preserving farmland. Let's join stegall and JSwan in the fight to protect the rural way of life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Count me in!

EventerAJ
Nov. 19, 2004, 09:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EventerAJ:
But Versailles Rd is still mile after blessed mile of rolling fields and fences. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, take another look. With the exception of Keeneland and Calumet, it's getting a bit crowded along the Lexington-Versailled corridor. A HUGE car dealership just opened up and there are a lot of streets and sidewalks being put in for something...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK maybe I'm just thinking of the Frankfort end of Versailles Rd.

And I guess my perspective is a bit different. 50 miles west of Chicago, farmland is getting gobbled up like candy. ANY open space is a miracle there. I know where Giddy-up is coming from. It's not difficult to buy-out the dying breed of the American family farmer. But I bet it is a little more difficult to buy out as many thoroughbred-owning millionaires in a place where, to a significant degree, people value land. Sprawl is inevitable. The important thing is how it is controlled and managed.

My parents looked into buying property 50 miles west of Chicago 5 years ago. They tried for a 40-acre piece, with the notion of eventually having 6-8 houses (including theirs), with bridle trails and generally horse-friendly (a stable bordered the property). The other neighbors were enraged; Kane County had imposed some development laws (a Good Thing!), but they weren't necessarily realistic (1 house per 20 acres). My parents tried to fight the county, but eventually settled for a 5acre piece down the road. I don't know if those zoning laws have changed yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if 50 houses end up on that 40-acre lot. IMO, you cannot try to prevent ALL development, or eventually your defenses will break and urban sprawl will flood your backyard. If you intelligently give up a little bit of land here or there, you may not have to sacrifice all of it later.

~AJ~

ps--
Some out of state friends joked to me once... "You know why I want to move to KY? Because the end of the world will come 20 years later, just like everything else." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Giddy-up
Nov. 19, 2004, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Giddy-up, if your village is anti-spawl. And yet the option for farmers in the village is to sell out to developers. And your village government possibly doesn't understand the above economic equation of developed land vs farmland/open space. It sounds to me as if you could do a great service by developing partnerships with land conservation groups who have access to funds to purchase development rights. Which might allow the farmers to remain on their land, and your village to avoid the high costs of development. I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm dissing your village, which I'm sure is a wonderful place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not insulted at all. People feel differently about things & that's what makes the world go round. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sprawl is what we are avoiding. By grouping homes together in the Village limits, we are leaving open land in unincorporated (County). It's the "luxury" subdivisons (again located in unincorporated County--not our jursidiction) that offer large size lots (couple acres or larger) that spread out the homes & create sprawl that you have to drive further & further to get to anything. What is better for open space/sprawl prevention--to have 10 homes on 100 acres or 100 homes on 100 acres with designated open space & smaller lot sizes (I don't even know if these numbers are feasible, just throwing out for an example).

Our Village isn't leaving the farmers no option except to sell out. Developers look around, they notice growth trends, they see where the Village wants to grow & how zoning wise(residential v/s commercial), they approach Farmer & offer XXX amount of dollars cause they think his land is most promising. It's not the Village's fault--we can't buy up all the farm land for open space cause what we would pay v/s a developer doesn't compare. It's not the Developer's fault for being a smart looking ahead business minded person. You can't blame the Farmer when he hears how much $$$ is being offered & how it could change his life, especially if he was thinking of retiring soon anyways. That's why our Village in annexation agreements (this farm land is not in the Village limits, it's adjacent to which is why else we have no control) and in subdivison approvals there is set land allotments for open space, school, etc... in addition to impact fees for various (road, schools, fire, police, etc...). So yes, in a way undeveloped land is "cheaper", but since growth is happening, it may as well be on our terms. And believe me, even though we are a "puny little hick town" (yes have been called that), we have no problem telling the likes of some very big companies (Pulte, Centex, Kennedy, Metra railroad come to mind) it's "our way, NOT your way".

As for land conservation groups, we are involved with them. EventerAJ has mentioned Kane County (which has it's own set of development rules which are not as strict as our Village)--they have open space programs as do the townships. Problem is people have different opinions on what "open space" is--some people think natural land untouched, some think land with trails on it (like a Forest Preserve) & some think ball fields as they have grass and are open space. That's a whole other can of worms. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know this probably doesn't make much sense as it's much more than just a farmer selling land to a developer & wah-lah...end of deal there is Wal-Mart on your corner. I will say though these things don't happen overnight (all sorts of public hearings to occur for zoning changes & so forth) & may be in the planning stages for months before it even goes anywhere. People can get involved if they want--most just choose not to as they welcome the convienence of having shopping close by while experiencing "country" living. Case in point: shopping is 10/15 minutes drive away from our Village. We have no big box stores yet, just a small town Main Street with those types of shops. This is how it's been. Yet the first thing new residents ask is when is Jewel coming on the corner so we don't have to drive so far? Hello--did they not look where they were moving to prior? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

JSwan
Nov. 19, 2004, 12:36 PM
Windsor -
Look into the Piedmont Environmental Council, American Farmland Trust, Land Trust of Virginia - I'll try and think of some others. I'm perimenopausal and have no memory. lee posted above and had some good ones.

Also - this is kind of a tangent here - but a fantastic method of conservation is planned giving. That's what I used to do. You can leave money in your estate plan (will/trust/whatever), depending on your age and financial plan you can create a charitable gift annuity, deferred gift annuity, Charitable Remainder Trust/Unitrust - there are many ways of giving that you can defer till your death, until a certain age and claim income and or estate tax benefits. (the estate tax monster comes back in 2010.)

There are also charitable gift funds available through Fidelity and other investment companies as well as some conservation groups that offer such a fund.

All these options are tax free money makers for the conservation group, yet provide revenue for ongoing efforts, as well as provide tax benefits for the donor.

A win -win situation for everyone. You can also give gifts of appreciated stock/mutual fund shares. Something to think about this time of year - very simple to do.

I have to say that I'm not against development. Folks deserve a decent place to live. But I think we're all being sold a bill of goods. Know what I mean? Bigger. Faster. More. Shinier. I don't think it's healthy emotionally of physically for us.

Windsor
Nov. 19, 2004, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J Swan:
Windsor -
Look into the Piedmont Environmental Council, American Farmland Trust, Land Trust of Virginia - I'll try and think of some others. I'm perimenopausal and have no memory. lee posted above and had some good ones. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks--was familiar with PEC but not the others, and didn't know if, among the ones I was familiar with, some were more influential/effective than others.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I have to say that I'm not against development. Folks deserve a decent place to live. But I think we're all being sold a bill of goods. Know what I mean? Bigger. Faster. More. Shinier. I don't think it's healthy emotionally of physically for us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said!

Glimmerglass
Nov. 19, 2004, 01:23 PM
The PEC as I recall wasn't exactly been against the Salmander Inn which no one can say is in the best interest of Middleburg from an environmental standpoint http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That aside ...

What tends to be the most insidious of all actions eroding a way of life are the little movements, the sprawl factor as has been consistently cited. It is isn't so much the mega projects as they are a lightening rod and often easily motivate the average guy to take a stand against it.

Case in point: the Disney America project of a decade ago on Route 66, No. Va. I would be hard pressed to name one person in favor of it then (save for the land holders selling out and construction folks) and certainly not a sole today.

Contrast that to say Middleburg today which is slowly (or rapidly depending on the view) seeing land sliced up little by little for oversized homes on smaller plots and visible on the landscape. No one is trying to stop those homes from changing the look and feel. Other activities quickly proceed without objection. No restrictions have existed to John Kent Cooke's Boxwood Winery (http://www.boxwoodwinery.com/) commercial venture at what had been a very quiet, private manor house owned for many years by the Stephen C. Clark, Jr. family.

At some point people will look around and wonder why so much speedy traffic will be found near the Hill School. A way of life which was simplicity away from living in the long since Urbanized area of Alexandria is slowly becoming the norm in the capital of hunt country.

As cited above, I won't even touch the whole Salamander Inn project.

The "big city" of Warrenton is growing by leaps and bounds with whatever farm land left being gobbled up. While I don't know this man from Adam - and I don't live in Fauquier Co. - I did appreciate what he was saying in his own word about how development is ruining the area: Citizen 09/09/04 Letter to the Editor: What we cherish about Fauquier faces extinction (http://www.citizenet.com/opinions/letters/090904/letter3.shtml)

Galloway
Nov. 19, 2004, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jetjocky:
[QUOTE]I have personally seen, farmers who have been forced out for various reasons, and many of them WEPT when they gave up their farms. Having seen a 75 year old man howl in dispair made me ashamed that we as citizenss can let such thing happen to the people who feed and cloth us.[QUOTE]

As a culture, we should be ashamed of our insatiable hunger for cheaper gizmos and gadgets, McMansions and so forth. This is one of the many reasons that other nations fear, dislike and distrust us.

These tendencies away from a connection to the natural world are what ultimately has driven people who have fed and clothed us for generations off the land. As stegall, I believe it was, noted, you can't just point the finger in any one direction, whether it's the developer, the big-box retail chain, or what. The blame is in the culture that allows these things to blossom unchecked and largely unquestioned.

Also as we take farmland out of production, we begin to cede our method of food production over to who?? the Chinese, the Argentines? And if push ever comes to shove, do you think they will feed Americans first? (Sorry, getting off soapbox now; I know I'm a broken record.)

Let's all make a resolution for the New Year, or even before, to support organizations dedicated to preserving farmland. Let's join stegall and JSwan in the fight to protect the rural way of life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be a broken record, but you're playing the right song.

I'll join in the fight. Just need to figure out which group...

Windsor
Nov. 19, 2004, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
The PEC as I recall wasn't exactly been against the Salmander Inn which no one can say is in the best interest of Middleburg from an environmental standpoint http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmmm...point taken. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The "big city" of Warrenton is growing by leaps and bounds with whatever farm land left being gobbled up. While I don't know this man from Adam - and I don't live in Fauquier Co. - I did appreciate what he was saying in his own word about how development is ruining the area: http://www.citizenet.com/opinions/letters/090904/letter3.shtml <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know how much more I can read. It's depressing.

JSwan
Nov. 19, 2004, 01:55 PM
Yeah - no group is perfect. Having worked for one - It's difficult to please everyone - and often the alternative to something rather odious is even worse.

In the last 4 years Fauquier has just been attacked on all fronts. It's a tough fight in Virginia because of the Dillon Rule, VDOT and the powerful development lobby.

But that's not the case everywhere, and there are many successes, particularly with local land trusts. So keep researching and asking questions. Perhaps the equestrian land conservation resourse may be better for you. but there are many choices - pick one or two that have a good record of working with other groups.

stegall
Nov. 19, 2004, 03:44 PM
oh, I was able to look today but not post until I got home, so I had to sit and painfully wait for my day to end to come and get back into this topic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Need to preface some things:

First, In rereading my post to you giddy-up, it sounded snipy, and I apologize, as I didn't mean it that way. I can only blame my extreme sleep depravation while posting on a very dear subject to me.

Because of the fact that I am so very close to this issue, I want to make a few things clear. First, as has been noted, there is no one easy solution. (If there was, probably 1,000 people, myself included, would have fixed it by now).

Also, I am not blaming the developers exclusively. Yes, I do believe there are good and conscientious developers. I have seen a few places that are "equine communities" which have been done very nicely. Also, I am not opposed to development in general. Unfortunately, I think that not enough developers put the thought/planning/consideration into what they are doing-unlike those mentioned here. My own town is a case in point, we have several little neighborhoods which have gone up lately which are not only an eyesore, but one is currently causing significant erosion and drainage problems, which have succeeded in polluting a pond across the street and annoyed surrounding property owners. Our town currently has no historic district, no (enforced) open space policy, and at the moment Cumberland farms has just come in and made on offer on a historic mansion in town built circa 1816 in order to raze it for a store and gas pumps. (which by the way is across the street from the same thing owned by 7/11). The current situation has been created in part by our lax zoning officials.

And, sometimes people don't realize that sprawl is insidious. Its more than just losing a farm. Its increased property taxes for residents, increased crime, traffic congestion, higher food prices, its a long list of negative impacts.

Personally, I wish there was more of a push for revitalization and infill. In other words, find those properties in need of rebuilding and go to work. As has been mentioned here as well-its not the elimination of growth, but the "smart growth" that is better. Some towns have been successful in this, but sadly, most have not.

So, Giddy-up, I don't see you as the enemy, and I wish more developers were like you. Then maybe I wouldn't have to be so anxious to post here on COTH http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . The sad thing is that for people like me, who have been doing this for so long, you begin to get burnt out. Its discouraging to fight ten battles and only win one.

But, I am sure most people know how I feel by now.

So, what can a person do? As said before, join organizations, thats an important step. Especially the small nonprofits, they are always hard up for dollars. Some of the reccommended ones are excellent places to start; the Equestrian Land conservation Resource (ELCR), The Amercian Farmland Trust,
The Working Lands Alliance, and something I have not seen mentioned yet, your state Ag In the Classroom programs. The Agricultural Education Foundation in CT (of which I am past President-so here comes the shameless plug), runs educational programs in the classrooms for grades K-12. Its amazing to know that there are many children out there who have no idea where food comes from or have appreciation for the importance of farms. Many states have similar programs. These are important because the children of today are leaders tommorow.

And...for those of you who feel more industrious..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Write a letter to your legislators and tell them how you feel about the subject. They might not have something to vote on now, but if you contact them early and let them know, then they will remember this in the future (trust me on this, I lobby too). Legislators VERY seldom get correspondence from their constituants. Usually only if there is a hugely sensitive issue. SO, to get a letter out of the blue most often gives them a wake up call. Aa a helpful hint, most legisltors are not online so you can even do this by email (how fun is that). To find your legisltors, do a google on your state general assembly, or capitol and go to the state website. they have contact info for your legislator. If not, call your town hall or secretary of state (blue pages of the phone book).

OK, next (if I still have your attention) call your town hall and get a copy of your zoning book. Ask them if they have an open space or farmland protection policy on the books. If not ask WHY NOT??

Write some letters to the editors of your local paper (again-many newspapers now accept letters online).

And finally-JOIN your state Farm Bureaus and Horse Councils. They are the ones out in the front lobbying.

Heck-go wild and buy memberships for all your horsey friends as stocking stuffers.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And the truth of the matter, what annoys me most is when people do nothing at all. Pretty soon, they won't be able to move away from it. If we get to the point where the farms are greatly reduced, we will have to import the majority of our food (think what that will cost us) and be reliant on other countries to survive. And, most importantly, we won't be able to afford our horses, or have a place to keep them. I live in fear of that time, and I know its coming sooner than we think.....


ok, off the soapbox. If you read the entire post, wow, I'm impressed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stegall
Nov. 19, 2004, 03:55 PM
Ha, you thought I was gone, but I had to come back..Just thought I wouldn't drop a suggestion and then leave.

For those of you who may be interested, here are some links. One is a link to the CT Ag in the classroom paper on some of our activities, the next is the AFB ag in the classrooom link so you can find your own state program.

Finally, the last link is my most favorite. For those of you interested in contacting your legislators, here is a place to search to find them. WARNING: this link contains every link you ever wanted for the US government. Be prepared for some serious surfing here, but its well worth it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ruralct.org/docs/success7_01.pdf

http://www.ageducate.org/links/states_A-C.html


http://www.firstgov.gov/

Bea
Nov. 19, 2004, 04:31 PM
Giddy-up, great post. It sounds as if your community and mine are facing such similiar problems. My village, and town, managed to push through a decent comprenhensive plan. The neighboring town has no zoning. As in zilch, nada, none. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I live in a county within 2.5 hours driving time from NYC which currently has a population of 62,000. The county south, of the same physical size, has a population of 250,000. No matter where we all are, these problems are coming upon us. And as everyone has stated, there are no easy answers.

I find this problem so depressing, it inspires -- and cheers -- me to read everyone's posts. And see how many of us are concerned with these issues.

poltroon
Nov. 19, 2004, 05:33 PM
Some small ideas:

1. Read the Not So Big House by Sarah Susanka. It talks about the various pressures to build McMansions with More Square Feet ... and we end up with houses that aren't really liveable, with most of the space standing empty. Your library probably has a copy. Read it, digest it, evangelize it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2. Support infill development and high density in exchange for leaving open farmland on the outskirts. I love the new Paseo in Pasadena, CA with very nice (and expensive) apartments above classy retail, on the site of a previously declining traditional shopping mall. Saves on land space, saves on driving, makes for a vibrant destination.

3. Shop at farmer's markets. Those are family farmers, and instead of getting a few cents per pound from the brokers they're getting full retail from you.

BTW, just to make sure our perspectives are in line: 100 houses on 100 acres is probably the epitome of sprawl. 100 dwellings on 1 acre is way better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif 20 dwellings per acre may be realistic for most communities.

Galloway
Nov. 19, 2004, 08:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
Some small ideas:

1. Read the Not So Big House by Sarah Susanka. It talks about the various pressures to build McMansions with More Square Feet ... and we end up with houses that aren't really liveable, with most of the space standing empty. Your library probably has a copy. Read it, digest it, evangelize it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do already! That's a great book, I dream of having a home like that.

JSwan
Nov. 20, 2004, 02:48 AM
It is a great book. And I live in a not so big house. It's under 800sq ft and we love it.

stegall
Nov. 20, 2004, 04:16 AM
Poltroon, I am glad to hear that they made that area a success. I bet some good planning went into it. Now, I prefer the country way of life, but if for some reason I would have to move to the city, that would likely be the place I would go-easy access, and thoughtful set up.

One of the related topics to this is traffic/commuting and public access. Unfortunately, many cities have sprung up pell mell, and don't have good transportation infrastructures. (some cities however have done an excellent job).

The city of Hartford for example, is VERY pedestrian unfriendly. Their sidewalks are poorly maintained (and in some cases just disappear) public transportation is sporadic and ineffective and the city is run down in several sections. I would never want to live there, and don't go there for anything unless its necessary. oh, and add in no parking, its a nightmare.

But, thanks very much for the book reccomendation, I will have to go find it.

For those of you who own their own farms or property...Have you taken advantage of any programs to help keep your property as a farm? Or, as J.Swan did, created wildlife habitats?
Would you ever consider doing so? The PDR programs as mentioned in some cases apply to horse farms too. (depends on your state requirements as well as the type of land you have). I am just wondering, as I know horse people are often unaware of the things that might be avilable to them. (If you board, do you know if the BO has taken any steps?).
I am wondering if my next project should be to put out some publication for horse people to make them aware of the different programs. I have half of the material already...

And, as an aside, before the topic swung (sorry if I caused a highjack), but does anyone know if there has been any consulting with other great farms to see if the horses in question could be moved there, out of respect? Or, possibly to the KHP?

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 20, 2004, 04:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stegall:
And, as an aside, before the topic swung (sorry if I caused a highjack), but does anyone know if there has been any consulting with other great farms to see if the horses in question could be moved there, out of respect? Or, possibly to the KHP? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently not:

"Madden said yesterday that he intends to relocate the farm's horse graveyard from a hard-to-reach plot just off Winchester Road to a more prominent spot within the shopping center.

"We're going to move it and integrate it, making it more accessible to the general public," Madden said. "I haven't studied to the point that we know where the best place would be."

Glimmerglass
Nov. 20, 2004, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
"Madden said yesterday that he intends to relocate the farm's horse graveyard from a hard-to-reach plot just off Winchester Road to a more prominent spot within the shopping center.

"We're going to move it and integrate it, making it more accessible to the general public," Madden said. "I haven't studied to the point that we know where the best place would be." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw that comment too and was frankly repulsed. Graves are not circus attractions, period. I believe strongly in the notion of sacred earth and the need for a quiet, private final resting place - not next to the Starbucks or McDonalds!

These horses made a fortune (small or otherwise) for his family back in the day and they deserve a hell of a lot better then to be prominently located in a freaking shopping center.

How about this guy use a bit of his newly found coin from the great sellout and buy some secluded, but small land in say Versailes for these horses to rest on? All due respect, but thats the very least Madden could do http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Glimmerglass
Nov. 20, 2004, 06:25 AM
By the way - a bit more on the rather impressive horses in question from
The Blood-Horse (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=25454)

The Thoroughbreds buried on the farm include: Ida Pickwick - granddam of Old Rosebud, 1914 Kentucky Derby winner; Imp, great race mare and Horse of the Year 1899; Lady Sterling, dam of Sir Barton, 1919 Kentucky Derby winner and first Triple Crown winner; Miss Kearney, dam of Zev, 1923 Kentucky Derby winner; Ogden, sire; Pink Pigeon, good race mare; Plaudit, 1898 Kentucky Derby winner; Princess Mary, dam of Flying Ebony, 1925 Kentucky Derby winner; Sir Martin, half brother to Sir Barton and stakes winner in both the United States and England; favorite for the Epsom Derby but stumbled and lost his rider; winner at 4 of the Coronation Stakes at Epsom; Star Shoot, leading sire five times (1911,1912, 1916, 1917,1919) and sire of Sir Barton, the winner of the Triple Crown in 1919; T.V. Lark, champion grass horse of 1961 and leading sire 1974; Bel Sheba, dam of Alysheba, 1987 Kentucky Derby winner; and Nancy Hanks, outstanding Standardbred mare.

Glimmerglass
Nov. 20, 2004, 06:34 AM
Of course least I fail to cite that the home of Man O'War was lost in the last couple years to developers too: GlenRiddle: Berlin, Maryland (http://www.glenriddle.com/history.html)

Where now you too can leave your expensive ugly (yes, these are ugly McMansions (http://www.glenriddle.com/homes.html)!) Brady Bunch house and drive your golf cart down the former galloping trails to the former pastures of War Admiral and Man O'War to what the world needs more of .. two golf courses.

You know golf courses, those faux "greenspace" concepts that actually suck down more water resources then any pasture ever would and require tons of chemicals. Oh boy! What fun!

quote: "Fortunately, the GlenRiddle Training Stable, which included stalls, and an indoor exercise track, remains structurally sound, and is currently being rebuilt as part of the GlenRiddle Golf Clubhouse."

"In addition, the two golf courses are named Man O’ War and War Admiral."

Isn't that rich http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 20, 2004, 07:35 AM
Glimmerglass, that is just plain WRONG. Don't let Coreene see it! And I take great exception to the fact that one of the TRULY ugly homes is called "Keeneland."

Snowbird
Nov. 20, 2004, 10:14 AM
What will bring this world down is not the individual problems but the total apathy and acceptance of bad governance which deprives us of the Bill of Rights.

My husband is a builder and a developer and for him, his housing was like art. His joy is to see these housing units and communities with lights on on the houses and people safely enjoying the security of their own home. Property rights is a very important issue. The point is you do not have to do everything with laws and Marshalls.

Once you give in to "government" having the right to deprive you of your rights then "GOOD"" causes become weapons and our liberty and freedom will vanish.

The point is that what a community (community is the people) needs is "Design Control" for any new development it is not zoning that is the way this should be approached. There are quality of life issues that should take priority over any government ageny whether it is the IRS, zoning or even the Board of Health.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And the truth of the matter, what annoys me most is when people do nothing at all. Pretty soon, they won't be able to move away from it. If we get to the point where the farms are greatly reduced, we will have to import the majority of our food (think what that will cost us) and be reliant on other countries to survive. And, most importantly, we won't be able to afford our horses, or have a place to keep them. I live in fear of that time, and I know its coming sooner than we think..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have the greatest respect for Senator Ben Campbell and I think he is the most courageous Senator I have ever had contact with on issues of individual rights. I have no doubt this was his way to bring attention to a problem facing us all with defending the acres preserved for the use of horses.

Undoubtedly, this was the best he could get done but like so many things it is pretty rhetoric, lovely words we want to hear. But, only noise and sound and fury with no substance to improve the state of the horse and those owners defending their right to have them. Politicians are very good in hiding behind apple pie, baseball amd mothers with lovely thoughts that implement no change of attitude.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>MEMORANDUM

To: AHC Member Organizations

From: American Horse Council

Date: November 19, 2004

Re: National Day of the Horse

Yesterday the Senate passed a Resolution (S. Res. 452), introduced by Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-CO), designating December 13, 2004 as the National Day of the Horse and asking the President to issue a proclamation to that effect. Since this is a Senate resolution only, it does not go to the House of Representatives for any action. The Resolution will now be published for the President’s action.

The Resolution provides that the horse “is a living link to the history of the United States,” that horses “continue to permeate the society of the United States, as witnessed on movie screens, on open land, and in our own backyards,” that “wild and domestic horses rely on humans for adequate food, water, and shelter,” and that “horses are a vital part of the collective experience of the United States and deserve protection and compassion.”

Resolutions do not have the same force as bills when they are passed. They are not law. They are used to express principles, opinions and purposes and often call on the President to do something, as this Resolution does. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really never believed that in my old age I would have to stand up to defend our individual rights against government intervention even in our kitchens. I have seen in the past 5 years horse keeping go from the most "pristine" use of open land to a nasty poluter which will be regulated into extinction.

Perhaps we should suggest that on the "Horses's Day" all motorized vehicles ould illegally used if driven and everyone will need to use a horse only on that day. Highways closed except to horses.

Magnolia
Nov. 20, 2004, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Personally, I wish there was more of a push for revitalization and infill. In other words, find those properties in need of rebuilding and go to work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif And developers can make a pretty penny off of those sites. Improving quality of life in our cities is a big key to land preservation. Sadly, certain urban residents are bigger NIMBY's than rural residents.... My favorites thumb their nose at CONDOS! Egad... only poor people have CONDOS.... meanwhile, the proposed condos cost $650K and have granite counters and wood floors.... but you know, it's density and worse than a trailer home. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Magnolia
Nov. 20, 2004, 01:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It's the "luxury" subdivisons (again located in unincorporated County--not our jursidiction) that offer large size lots (couple acres or larger) that spread out the homes & create sprawl that you have to drive further & further to get to anything. What is better for open space/sprawl prevention--to have 10 homes on 100 acres or 100 homes on 100 acres with designated open space & smaller lot sizes (I don't even know if these numbers are feasible, just throwing out for an example).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Down here, those large lot subs are getting much less popular. People don't want to cut grass. We routinely advise against that type of development - and we consult with the developers on maximizing their profits - not on smart growth.

Down here in Charlotte, I'm amazed at the market for urban condos and town homes and luxury zero lot line homes. Blown away by what people will pay to live close to the city, provided the space is fancy, they get 2 parking spaces and the neighborhood has a Starbucks. The last group of people we need are those with kids.... but our schools just aren't solid enough to prevent them from moving out to Ye Olde Riding Trails subdivision.... and many of those singla family homes are rapidly devaluing due to over supply. I'm hoping sprawl will lose steam in my neck o' the woods...

nightsong
Nov. 20, 2004, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
No matter where we all are, these problems are coming upon us. And as everyone has stated, there are no easy answers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, th ere ARE easy answers. Get the local zoning changed. PERIOD. Zoning is hte law that says what can be built where, and how much. The zoning is done at the LOCAL level -- by your local zoning board, the county, the city, WHOEVER has the local authority. And these people are VERY approachable -- and usually are elected by you and me. PLUS -- they can generally use HELP -- YOU can make the laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Caribbean Soul
Nov. 20, 2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And I'm wondering, are those horses in coffins? What exactly would they be digging up? Or would they just be moving the markers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Traditionally it is the head, the heart and the hooves that are buried. The container they are buried in is up to the owner. (I used to do the carriage tours at the KHP)

Snowbird
Nov. 20, 2004, 04:33 PM
It's against the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to deprive someone of their property rights without due process of law. Unless they have cancelled the Bil of Rights when I wasn't watching.

Government is not the way to solve your problems it's like using an atomic bomb to kill some ants. Remember if you can warp the law to get your way someone else get use it to get what they want.

Personally I'd start a nasty rumor that could turn into a Legend that there is a herd of red eyed horses in the sky that will haunt anyone who lives there. Ask the Real Estate Agents if they heard what happens when you disturb the graves of great horses. Since they don't get to heaven they stay suspended between here and the hereafter.

stegall
Nov. 20, 2004, 04:34 PM
Thanks snowbird for that bit on Lighthorse Campbell. At least he tried something. I think maybe I'll have our horse council send him a thank you letter.

Another question. ok, it sounds like they are taking the easy road and haven't moved to find a suitable location to relocate the graves. Do you think they will at least have a reinterment ceremony of some sort? This is just so tacky as it is, maybe they can have something respectful (before they slap them in the middle of the mini-mall for kids to walk all over).

And yes, as nightsong pointed out-local zoning is where its at. All you folks can get involved and draw your own lines in the sand. Its not as complicated as you think to work with local officials (just time consuming and requires effort)

Snowbird
Nov. 20, 2004, 05:09 PM
The problem here Stegall is it is a permitted use to develop it. It's too late for the Zoning Board or even the Planning Board but the Township Committee MIGHT make a change if there was a huge noise. Unlikely, because the development provides additional tax revenue.

You'd have to have a large committee of interested citizens camping out on the lawn of Town Hall to make the Township require moving the remains of horses at the expense of the contractor if he already has his approvals.

Or the interested could raise the money privately to remove the horses and reintere them. I wonder if the Kentucky Horse Park has thought of that use for some of their vacant land? Finding a place for them won't be easy.

If you had a place and the money then perhaps you could get a stay from the courts.

maxiford812
Nov. 20, 2004, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
I'm hoping sprawl will lose steam in my neck o' the woods... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too, Magnolia. The first time I drove down Matthews-Pineville Rd. after not having seen it since the early 70s, I literally got light-headed. No more countryside, no more farms, no more Meadowbrook Stables. It is truly amazing how built-up it is out there now.

stegall
Nov. 21, 2004, 05:22 AM
Snowbird, sadly enough, I realize that action now is likely moot. I was actually encouraging people to get involved for future events. Unfortunately, we cannot do much for these graves, but there will be other losses in the future. Everyone needs to get out there now. If they don't we will all be lost.

I'm sure you especially know how hard it is for a handful (or one person) of people to struggle, while everyone else looks on and does nothing.

Also, just to clarify, I am not sure if your previous post was in response to my suggestions to contact legislators. If so, just need to clarify, I wasn't making that suggestion in order to take away personal property rights (which for the record, I am a HUGE and staunch supporter of the rights of the private property owner), but rather so that legislators know the will of their consitituants so that the next time a bill comes on that supports farmers in some way, that they will act accordingly. Some of the positive examples that come to mind are the PDR program, the Right to farm laws and locally grown programs. Of course these are mostly on the state level, but every positive step counts.

I was gearing at giving the folks here some pointers (says one worker bee to the other http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
so they can find a point at which they want to get involved.

And for those of you reading this far...NO effort is too small. I really mean that. Everytime you buy at the locally grown markets in your area, you help. Every organization you join, you help. Every letter to a legislator that you write DOES make a difference. A thought for consideration, which I have brought up on this board in previous posts: If just every single person on COTH alone, wrote one letter, it would be an avalanch against a legislator. If every single person here donated just one dollar to the ELCR-it would be a windfall for them.

If one single person reading this thread decides to get involved and do one little thing, then I will be happy, because its one more than was involved yesterday. And for those here who don't believe that they alone can do somthing, I urge you to read these boards more closely, and you will find a small army of people out there "in the trenches" making their own impact. Snowbird has initiated legislation in her state. I have done it in mine. JSwan has created a wildlife habitat on her farm Dancing Lawn and Fernie Fox have worked on rescues.

So, stand up and be counted. You can help stop whats happening.....

JSwan
Nov. 21, 2004, 05:51 AM
Bless you stegall!!!

I'm clambering up on my soapbox again just to chime in and say - doing the right thing doesn't have to cost a lot of money. We all have a lot of demands on our time and wallets and darn it - we really want to ride our horses!

Please don't think that I spent a lot of money conserving my land. I didn't have any money. All I had was the desire.

Setting aside and protecting habitat can be as simple as not mowing everything to a nub. Leaving some brush piles in the woods. Planting a native species instead of a hothouse flower. Supporting your local park or land trust or other group.

It starts at home. Teeny tiny things. You don't have to go off-grid or wear Birkenstocks and stop shaving your legs.

We all want a place to ride our horses, to show them, stable them and land to feed them. A trail ride in the park is much more enjoyable if there are birds and other critters about. Your horse is healthier if you can get locally grown good quality hay. That takes land and nutrient management. And I know for a fact we all breathe a little easier and are much happier when we get to the barn and see our horse!

So it is all connected. Lead by example.

I'm such a sap - I even have my National Wildlife Federation Backyard Wildlife Habitat certficate framed.

Opening Farewell
Nov. 21, 2004, 06:47 AM
Oh no, I saw Poltergeist. The developers won't REALLY move the horses and then everyone will be in REAL trouble! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Magnolia
Nov. 21, 2004, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It starts at home. Teeny tiny things. You don't have to go off-grid or wear Birkenstocks and stop shaving your legs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but you need to swear off of deodorant for a while....... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JSwan
Nov. 21, 2004, 08:36 AM
Bleh - I KNOW people that went native. Really. Armpit hair, no soap, deoderant, hairy legs - Birkenstocks - the whole nine yards.

Please please - anyone who has seen the light and is going to start a conservation plan for their community, or fight city hall on zoning - there is not need to go native. Really. If you must - at least wear a shirt with sleeves and cordon off the surrounding area.

Oy.

Snowbird
Nov. 21, 2004, 10:17 AM
Opening Farewell you got the message. Exactly, and a herd of horses have big hearts and long memories. They might even haunt it if the bones get thrown in the landfill.

No Stegall it was off topic in that there are now starting to be some civil suits where people aare being deprived of their property rights which are protected by the Bill of Rights without due process means essentially without compensation. I happen to think that the Zoning Boards are too much governance. They are wrecking communities.

Here in New Jersey the former Governor in his haste to leave a legacy has preserved all of north New Jersey by a law from development. He then created development zones with 5 houses to the acres. He has used the state government to over ride all common sense. The horse farm has gone within 5 years from a pristine use of open space that pays taxes to a nasty poluter they want out of here.

Anyone from New Jersey please read the new Highland's Act and see what it does to you and your property rights. Yes! he got away with it because everyone was too busy to notice until it was too late. People use "pretty words" but what they mean and do can be not so pretty.

By the way our most popular Horse Event in New Jersey is being forced out of existence. The new terms and conditions for building a cross country course are so extravagant that we may never see the Essex Trials again. Thank you for yet another gift to New Jersey USEF. And you're supposed to be our Federation. This event has been the center of horse activites in this state for over 100 years.

Snowbird
Nov. 21, 2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>EQUESTRIAN LAND CONSERVATION RESOURCE (ELCR) RELEASES
NEW PUBLICATION

Equestrian Land Conservation Resource (ELCR) announces the release of a new booklet, Local Planning and Zoning Practices Related to Equestrian Facilities. This booklet provides suggestions and guidelines relating to zoning, rezoning, allowed use, and design considerations of equestrian facilities.

“The Zoning booklet was developed because of horse owner requests. It is intended to provide insight into zoning ordinances of land intended for keeping horses, giving riding lessons, hosting rodeos, horse shows, or eventing,” states Kandee Haertel, Executive Director of ELCR. The booklet discusses five valuable areas including zoning, definitions of allowed use, design, rezoning, and other considerations.

ELCR’s library of publications also includes:

• Easement Guide for Equestrian Use—This manual provides language relating to equestrian use that ELCR has extracted from its easement collections.
• Equestrian Economic Impact Analysis: How Your Community Benefits—This booklet is intended to provide a basic understanding of the ecomomic impact horses and horse owners have on a community and is directed to public officials.
• Getting Organized: Creating an Equestrian Trails Organization—This manual provides step-by-step information for working with an existing group or, if necessary, for creating a new organization.
• Equestrian Land Protection Guide—This manual is a step-by-step action plan for land protection that is written specifically for horse people.
• In Their Shoes (video)—This video presents the enjoyment of a trail from the viewpoint of a horseback rider, a hiker, and a biker—with all their roles scrambled.
• Recreational Use Statutes and The Private Land Owner—This brochure contains a brief description of responsibilities for both the land owner and the recreational user regarding limited liability for land owners who allow recreational use on their property.

Local Planning and Zoning Practices Related to Equestrian Facilities is available for $2.00, with five or more copies, $1.00 per copy plus $3.00 shipping and handling. All publications are available from the Equestrian Land Conservation Resource at 126B North Main Street, P.O. Box 423, Elizabeth, Illinois 61028-0423, e-mail info@elcr.org, or on their secure website <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Giddy-up
Nov. 22, 2004, 07:01 AM
stegall--no hard feelings. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Like I have said before, different opinions is what makes the world go round...it just gets hard to remember that when it's a topic near & dear to you. I have to remind myself too!

Another way to make a difference is remember when VOTING, know who you are voting for & their stance on development issues. Especially at the local levels.

kt
Nov. 22, 2004, 07:35 AM
Hitch, you were the first person I thought of when I first saw that dreaded article on the front page of the Herald Leader. I couldn't finish my breakfast. I, too, was completely repulsed at the thought of the graves being moved to a more public place. Based on the layout and design of Hamburg, I have no faith whatsoever that the developers will do a halfway decent job with this.

Hamburg Pavilion is the devil.

Edited to add: not sure if this has been posted yet... link to an additional article yesterday:

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/local/10236840.htm

poltroon
Nov. 22, 2004, 12:33 PM
Zoning is certainly a double-edged sword. It is hard to write any ordinance that will preserve the rights of the Good while simultaneously thwarting the Ugly.

Your local governing body that handles zoning ordinances is a key factor. If they are good guys, things seem to work out. If they are bad guys, the richest and ugliest developers will have a field day, building a two hundred home "Fair Oaks" development on a parcel after removing all but two oaks. But it takes vigilance.

Pay attention to things that don't seem relevant. For example, widening or paving roads frequently lead to more development, more traffic. Think about where you want traffic to go, and not go in the future.

Stegall, I would buy your book. I think there are a lot of people out there who want to live in a more rural environment if they can. But they can't figure out how to make a go of it so they buy 5 acre suburban plots, and add to the sprawl.

One thing that I thought was GREAT when I bought my property was that among the disclosures was a "Right To Farm" statement that basically said the County of Mendocino is dedicated to preserving farmland and so my neighbors could be stinky and noisy and have animals all they wanted, and that by signing this form I acknowledged that I had been informed of this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What's great about this is that it's essentially free - just another in a large sheaf of disclosures - but it sets a tone and perhaps keeps some of the more fastidious townies away.

nightsong
Nov. 22, 2004, 12:41 PM
Poltroon is right, when you can see such things as stop lights and widened roads, BEWARE!!! And, the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING in predicting development: SEWER LINES!!! Watch where they're going in, and you can be PRO-ACTIVE in PREVENTING NIGHTMARES!!!!! Just my two cents' worth...

stegall
Nov. 22, 2004, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One thing that I thought was GREAT when I bought my property was that among the disclosures was a "Right To Farm" statement that basically said the County of Mendocino is dedicated to preserving farmland and so my neighbors could be stinky and noisy and have animals all they wanted, and that by signing this form I acknowledged that I had been informed of this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> &lt;&lt;&lt;

HOLY great idea Batman! Poltroon, thanks for that tidbit. I am relatively certain there are not any towns in CT that currently do this. We have a Right to Farm Law here. I am going to call the FB office tommorrow and tell them about this, and see if we can't come up with a creative way of making it happen for rural towns here.

This is one of the reasons I LOVE this BB, so many great thinkers and exchanges of ideas.

And, thanks for offerig to buy my book, you can be my greatest (and only) fan... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

JSwan
Nov. 22, 2004, 03:59 PM
Hey - that is a great idea. I'm assuming that the disclosure to which you refer was among the closing papers when you bought the place? I wonder why Virginia doesn't have that. We have a right to farm law too.

Hmmmm.....methinks a letter is in order here. Do you have that disclosure and if so, can you copy and paste it here for us to take a gander at?

Me likee the COTH BB too.

stegall
Nov. 22, 2004, 04:20 PM
Yes, Poltroon, if you could share the release copy? Is it signed, or just enclosed with other disclosures?

Think of it, a multi-state strike back! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I can see it now "listen little country wannabe, you move here, you put up with the stinky manure pardner." Said in my best John Wayne voice..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Magnolia
Nov. 23, 2004, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And, the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING in predicting development: SEWER LINES!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup.... also look out for long-term plans in your area.