The horse hit thread...changed the subject to appease the Omnicient beings

[Briggsie]

Like it says above, a horse was hit near or on rt. 301 this morning in upper marlborro. Does anyone know whose it was or exactly where? I heard the driver of the vehicle was fine, but the horse, well....it goes without saying. Jingling for everyone, including the horse ownerhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

TITLE EDITED TO NOTE making of Memorial FUND for Francis Imwalle's Children in Guiness' name.

Please See page 11 for details.

******Edited to make note that I am unbiased as to the what the media thinks, nor was this post subject ever edited to appear as kissing the Media a$$ or to convey psuedo emotional need to start a memorial fund. It was a fellow COTHER's idea...but of course, was left open to the criticism of some people...good and bad. The brilliant ideas that this was conjured up to draw attention from the media....wow...some village has lost a few idiots. Alright, back to the war on terrorism (that was a comment to draw in the media too!) HOW DO YOU LOCK THIS THREAD ANYWAY? NO NEED TO HAVE IT OPENED ANY LONGER. THAT WAY I WONT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING, JUST IN CASE I GET BUSY AND HAVE A LIFE AND DONT HAVE TIME TO UPDATE IT.

[Briggsie]

Like it says above, a horse was hit near or on rt. 301 this morning in upper marlborro. Does anyone know whose it was or exactly where? I heard the driver of the vehicle was fine, but the horse, well....it goes without saying. Jingling for everyone, including the horse ownerhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

TITLE EDITED TO NOTE making of Memorial FUND for Francis Imwalle's Children in Guiness' name.

Please See page 11 for details.

******Edited to make note that I am unbiased as to the what the media thinks, nor was this post subject ever edited to appear as kissing the Media a$$ or to convey psuedo emotional need to start a memorial fund. It was a fellow COTHER's idea...but of course, was left open to the criticism of some people...good and bad. The brilliant ideas that this was conjured up to draw attention from the media....wow...some village has lost a few idiots. Alright, back to the war on terrorism (that was a comment to draw in the media too!) HOW DO YOU LOCK THIS THREAD ANYWAY? NO NEED TO HAVE IT OPENED ANY LONGER. THAT WAY I WONT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING, JUST IN CASE I GET BUSY AND HAVE A LIFE AND DONT HAVE TIME TO UPDATE IT.

[QueenMother]

I just hear d the news -- no one knows yet where the horse came from.One of the passengers inthe vehicle was seriously injureed.They have an accident reconstruction team at the scene.

[onwardb]

Briggsie, thought I posted too, but can't find my post.... I'm sick with worry - don't know which horse, we're on our way there now... Heard people still trapped in car... Oh, Lord how terrible... will post if any news... Everybody pray, please...

[Everythingbutwings]

The radio reported that the horse (killed) wandered away from the PG Equestrian Center. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Briggsie]

OMIGODhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif This makes me so sick. God I hope not. Either way, it is bad. Please keep us posted anyone.

[onwardb]

It did... Its the Maryland horse and pony show... just heard it wasn't one of mine, thank God --- but we can't find out who's it is... worried that owner doesn't know yet; several people have tried to get up on the road but they won't let us... we don't know how the horse got out... will update when we hear... if anyone else gets any info, please post...

edit: found my first post (ditzy under circumstaces) and deleted it...

[QueenMother]

Can't an official from the schow discover who the horse is? My horse is there but I am not.

[Kahuna]

I left a message for someone who is at the show - if I hear anything, I'll let you know.

I woke up to the traffic report this morning just as they were talking about the accident. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[QueenMother]

Thanks, Kahuna. Even a color would help.

[Liberty]

The news report I just heard on Channel 5 said both the horse AND the woman driver of the car were killed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif No mention of any passengers in the car.

[Kahuna]

http://www.nbc4.com/news/4976326/detail.html

[Kahuna]

It was one of Winn Alden's horses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[QueenMother]

Oh, no. Has anyone heard from Huckelbug? She has 2 horses there with Winn.

[Sannois]

OMG what a nightmare!!! The poor owners and everyone involved! I take it , the horse was stabled at a show! OMG!! How awful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[VivaDusty]

Lets pray for both the families of the people and horse involved in this accident. How horrible. Its every horseowners worst nightmere. :-( I dont even know what to say... it just sends shivers up my spine

[Invested1]

Just got off the phone with Hucklebug--her horses are fine.
She's on her way up to PG to help Winn.

[jilltx]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif How very sad for everyone. Thoughts and prayers to all involved.

[QueenMother]

Thanks, Invested. Which horse was it?

[bluewatersail]

This makes me sick too. I hope the driver is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Didn't this just happen in NJ last week also?

[Timex]

bluewatersail, why would the driver be prosecuted??? i'm confused. if it was an accident, the horse ran out in front of the car (which is more likely then the horse standing out in the middle of the road, while cars go past), then why would the driver necessarily be at fault? and at this point, before jumping to conclusions, as it only happened a few hours ago, let's instead offer everyone involved our jingles, rather then condemn the driver, since we have no idea what really happened.

[Anne FS]

The driver is dead, bluewatersail. Guess you want to go after the grieving family now.

Good grief, can't you possibly see that a horse wandering on the road at 5am might not be SEEN by a driver, or could have run right into the car?

Ugh.

[GoneAwayFarmCT]

Any more info on the horse? I sold a nice bay gelding last fall to a student of Winn's. . .

My thoughts and prayers to the occupants of the car, the horse people involved, and the crew at the Rainbow Bridge.

[HOOF IT]

So very sorry to hear about this accident, my stomach is in knots. I pray for all involved. Horrible tragic loss of horse and driver..... Unfortunately I have heard of a similar accident many years ago, the horse owner and the farm or in this case the show grounds will be held responsible for negligence in failing to keep the horse properly contained on the property. The owner of the horse, even though she was not even at the farm at the time was sued and the farm owner was sued as well. The owner of the farm lost her farm over the law suit and the owner of the horse paid a tremendous settlement too. It was tragic. The driver was not found at fault, he did not lose his life, but lost eyesight from injuries. I have never been to these show grounds before, but many places located near highways like this should put up perimeter fences to keep this situation from happening. bluewatersail, I find it very hard to believe that the driver would be at fault in this...

[Darkwave]

Actually, I think it would be a good idea if we all refrained from speculation about who was "negligent" or "at fault" -- no one here knows what the facts of this situation are, and we're not doing anyone any favors by pointing fingers at one party or the other.

[Roomfor2]

Wow, called Roomfor2ette (worked for Winn this summer and helped out with Hucklebugs horses). I am very worried and can't imagine anyone going through this. Waiting for more info...

[Briggsie]

Bluewatersail: THE driver is dead. Or so the news said. I dont think this was anything that happened with maliciouse intent, it was, well, an accident. I just feel bad, I know this upsets people, but really, no one comes out the winner here.

WHo is WINN ALDEN? who was her horse?

[frisbee32]

Jingles for everyone involved.

[Duffy]

Winn Alden is a prominent trainer in our area. I'm shaking all over - sick to my stomach. I wish there was something I could do. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Does anyone know if the horse got loose during the night, or was it a "got loose during lunging" or whatever?

Please keep us updated and if there is anything we can do...

[SBF]

This horse was not owned by Winn, but belonged to a student of Winn's. The student is aware of what has happened. She bred this horse and is extremely upset. It is a very sad and shocking tragedy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Luv2ride]

oh no!!

Jingling for everyone involved

[Roomfor2]

Daughter trying to get hold of Winn or Hucklebug to see how they are holding up. Will update when I find out anything. Duffy, I too am sick, I have goosebumps sitting here thinking about and not being able to do anything.

[MHJLittlefield]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Sing Mia Song]

I believe under MD state law, a driver has a "reasonable expectation" for animals to not be in the road. We dealt with this a lot when we had dogs and cats at our emergency clinic that were hit by cars.

What a horrible tragedy. I'm so sorry for the horse owner and the driver's family.

[VivaDusty]

I really hope the poor girl doesnt end up with a law suit on her hands. Although we are unaware of how the horse got loose, it would be unfair to blame her especially if she was not on the show grounds. I hope it does not come to that. :-( Jingles

[J Swan]

From what I heard on the news (admittedly not a perfect source of factual information) - the horse got loose somehow and it was just a horrible, unfortunate accident.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Take this opportunity to give all your loved ones an extra hug and smile.

[inca]

Prayers and jingles for all involved and their families. What a horrible, horrible, tragic accident.

[csmpony]

I just talked to a friend of mine who works for Winn. Apparently it was an accident, and they were trying to catch the horse when it just walked up the hill onto an exit ramp and got hit. Everyone is devastated and the driver did die. It was just a horrible horrible accident.

[inca]

Oh, how very horrible that the owner saw it and of course that the driver died.

[HOOF IT]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif I cannot even begin to comprehend the feelings of those involved.....my prayers to all involved........

[SBF]

I am not sure that the owner was present - when I spoke with her this morning she was on her way to work and was not sure of all the details. In any case, it is indeed an awful tragedy for everyone involved.

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by QueenMother:
Thanks, Invested. Which horse was it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a woman's horse who also posts here on the boards..she had just started riding w/ Winn.

I too have spoken to Hucklebug, and have been asked to keep on eye out on speculation and rumors at this point. This is a devistating situation and a trainers worst nightmare. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[GoneAwayFarmCT]

Thank you for the clarification and the discretion, jodes. That's enough to tell me it wasn't the horse I sold. While it's a relief for me personally, my heart hurts for everyone involved.

[trubandloki]

Prayers to all involved!!!

[LLDM]

I can't even imagine! My heart goes out to all involved. What a tragedy.

A big dose of CoTH comfort for all involved.

SCFarm

[Show Hunter]

Oh my. That is so awful. My deepest condolences for those involved.

The show grounds are so close to the highway, I can see how this could happen. A freak accident for sure, though.

[Piaffe56]

This is a tragic example of why we all should carry personal liablity insurance on our horses. I have just purchased a policy on mine because I have always had a fear of this very thing happening. It is very inexpensive.

[SmileGee]

How do you get personal liabilitly insurance on a horse? What a tragedy. I am thinking of all involved....please keep us posted on any updates on the story and also where to send condolences to the owner of the horse.

[Instant Karma]

What an awful, awful situation. Both horse and driver were innocent parties here, in the wrong place at the wrong time. My thoughts go out to all who were involved.

How terribly sadhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Rosies mom]

Horses are not supposed to be loose on the roads because they can cause accidents. I think that Show Place Arena, the horse owner, or the trainer, or perhaps all three are potentially legally responsible. The driver of the car would not be legally responsible for the death of the horse or the accident. This again would be, I believe, whoever was responsible for the horse. The driver was driving on the road. Its not like he/she drove off the road and plowed through the show grounds.

Its an unfortunate event, thats for sure. But it in no way was the car driver's fault. Don't be surprised if there are civil cases against those responsibe for the horse and possibly even criminal prosecution since the accident resulted in the death of a person.

You may be able to get additional personal liability insurance on your homeowner's policy. This is what will cover you if someone comes over to your house and has an accicent, if your dog bites someone or digs up the neighbor's prize roses, if your horse kicks someone. I got this increased on my homeowner's policy when I got a horse. It was actually required at a place where I boaded once and the idea had never occurred to me before that. Its not very expensive to get more coverage this way since your homeowner's insurance policy will have a personal liability component. I think you would need to ask an insurace agent about coverage if you are not a homeowner.

[magnum]

Very sorry for all involved.

Sadly, this same type of incident happened a few years back up near Naperville, IL. It was either the Wayne-DuPage event or Lamplight (Chicagoans will remember) where a horse got loose and ran into the road and was hit and killed by a larger truck. Luckily, the driver was not killed in that incident.

Maybe some Chicagoans can lend more light on my dim memory of that one.

Anyway, terrible, terrible for horses and people involved. So sorry to hear this.

Magnum

[findeight]

That's terrible for all concerned.

Just an aside...some states have different statutes regarding this kind of thing. For example, open range ranching states hold that the driver HAS an expectation of large animals in the road. I know, ex hubby hit a steer in Texas (middle of the night, not all that rural). Had to pay for the steer.

Might be good to review your insurance and the laws of your state, or those you show in. S*it happens no matter how careful you are.

[Erin]

magnum, that might have happened more than once there... I know that a horse who lost its rider on the cross-country course at the Wayne Horse Trials ran back up the path to the road and was hit by a car and killed.

Since then, for the event at least, they usually have a police crossing guard. But any loose horse at a show there could easily get out onto Army Trail Road.

[Glimmerglass]

ABC 7 /Associated Press (http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0905/260407.html)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Woman Killed When Car Hits Horse On Route 4
Thursday September 15, 2005 10:27am

Upper Marlboro, Md (AP) - State police have now identified the woman who died after striking a horse with her car this morning in Prince George's County. She was Frances Ann Imwalle of Lothian.

The accident happened just before 5 a.m. at Route Four and Water Street in Upper Marlboro. Police say the horse wandered away from the nearby Equestrian Center and into the path of the woman's car.

The horse also died at the scene.

According to a report, the horse was in a barn being groomed when it took off out an open door. It's trainer tried to run after the animal but was unable to catch it.

Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HOOF IT]

Good advice.... an umbrella liability policy for anyone who owns a horse. I have had one for many many years now. They are not expensive, and mine is part of my homeowner's policy. It sure helped when my horse sat on a car while I was talking to a passer by while on a trail ride. Side mirror enema for the horse, big dent on the car door, insurance policy paid for the damages after a few giggles and laughs.
Not to take away from the seriousness of this post......I can't stop thinking about it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[2 tbs]

What a terrible tragedy for all involved and even for anyone on the show grounds as they heavy heartedly show thier horses or even just visit today knowing deep down that it could have been their horse.

Show grounds should have those high chain link fences or something around them especially when so close to the highway where vehicles are traveling at higher rates of speed but it costs money to put up, to maintain, etc. However, they might consider it now...it always takes a tragedy to make things safer.

When I was in high school a girl in my school was riding through a local park (very very strict on speed limit of 15-25 mph depending what part of the park you are in). She was headed back to her barn when her horse bolted and bucked across an open field. She fell off, and her her horse ran across the field and crossed the road. A friend of mine was in the car with her mother and as they crested the hill they met the horse on the road. The outcome was tragic on a lot of levels. The horse did not make it, the girl was devasted, and my friend more or less hung up her helmet and riding boots...she did ride but not like she used to and it eventually led to the sale of her horse.

At fault? Well, the mom was going over the speed limit but not by much and the horse was loose but in a public park where folks ride horses all the time. I do believe without any hesitation the mom offered to pay the full value of the horse (not that it changes things) and did what she could to compensate the owner. Insurance might have come into play somewhere but the driver stepped right up (most likely because they were horse people). It was truly an accident and if it had not been at the crest of a hill most likely the car woulda been going slower as it is straight down the other side and the horse woulda been seen coming across the field - things just happen sometimes.

There were also a couple horses killed down the street from where I used to keep my horses. A guy in an SUV was slowing down as he approached a school bus with it's red lights on. The lights went off and the guy sped back up. Coming from behind the bus while the guys eyes were still adjusting to the dim daylight and the colored bus lights were two dark bays. They crossed, the guy blinked, and the rest is another tragic ending.

The guy walked away fine-his car not so much. Both horses were killed. One was killed by the car the other had to euthanized right there. Who was at fault? No one. They decided it was just an accident. The fencing the horses lived in was found to be fully functional but somehow the horses got out-jumped?..the gates were all still locked except the one at the top of the driveway which they determined was not part of the horse enclosure so it didn't matter. I believe the horse owner was insured (her own private horse farm) and she took care of the SUV but it was not required.

As far as personal liability insurance - I believe most equine insurances offer that now. I have looked into it for my horses but have yet to tack it on...I really should though-it's a very smart policy.

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SmileGee:
How do you get personal liabilitly insurance on a horse? What a tragedy. I am thinking of all involved....please keep us posted on any updates on the story and also where to send condolences to the owner of the horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such a horrible tragedy for all involved. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif My thoughts are with everyone.

For personal liability insur. your homeowner's may be a pssible solution or check out http://www.hallmarkhorse.com They have a policy available.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

This is simply horrible for all parties involved. My heart goes out to them.

We have a beautiful equestrian center in our area that is now hemmed in on all sides by nasty development (500 or so houses on a tract, maybe 4 inches apart). This could so easily happen here.

My sympathy to all.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 2 tbs:
Show grounds should have those high chain link fences or something around them especially when so close to the highway where vehicles are traveling at higher rates of speed but it costs money to put up, to maintain, etc. However, they might consider it now...it always takes a tragedy to make things safer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree - this is just comon sense to me. Screw the costs!

[Trakehner]

There are quite a few fences at the Equestrien Center...but there are also gates so cars, trailers and people can get in. It's not a prison.

It's whoever had control of the horse that is at fault...if they didn't cross tie it or whatever happened that it got away, there is where the blame lies.

Most importantly, a woman died, perhaps due to someone not doing something they probably should have and we'll just have to wait and see what happened.

A woman died, which is a lot more important and serious than a horse dying.

[hoser1]

Very, very sad for all involved. My husband told me this morning that he had heard it on the news heading into McLean.

We've all had a horse slip our grip at some point, whether in the barn or outside. And we've all come across something in the road that we weren't expecting, even with the most prudent driving.

It is a strange phenomenon that people often try to find a way to place blame after a tragedy. Trying to find reason behind a death or loss can provide a sense of closure, I suppose.

In any case...sincere condolences to the victims here http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[onwardb]

As for the liability question --

Here in Maryland it would not be on the driver (prayers for her and her family!)... As some (and the law) will see it, regardless of whether it was caused by negligence either accidental or deliberate - the "failure to maintain control of an animal at all times" issue will surely come into play.

It is a horrendous tragedy for all involved - and we know that the one thing we ALL strive for in this sport is controlling the darn beasts at all times.

Just a terrible accident that ended in horrible grief for soooo many.

Jingles are most definitely appropriate for the horse owner, trainer, handlers - and the trying aftermath they possibly face.

And of course, as stated above, my heart goes out to the driver's family.

This is a VERY busy major highway leading into the District during rush hour. My hope is that the County will finally wake up now that what we all feared could happen, indeed, did.

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
There are quite a few fences at the Equestrien Center...but there are also gates so cars, trailers and people can get in. It's not a prison.

It's whoever had control of the horse that is at fault...if they didn't cross tie it or whatever happened that it got away, there is where the blame lies.

Most importantly, a woman died, perhaps due to someone not doing something they probably should have and we'll just have to wait and see what happened.

A woman died, which is a lot more important and serious than a horse dying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is not the time for your hard-nosed attitude, ok? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Show grounds should have those high chain link fences or something around them especially when so close to the highway where vehicles are traveling at higher rates of speed but it costs money to put up, to maintain, etc. However, they might consider it now...it always takes a tragedy to make things safer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That only works if there are GATES, and the gates are kept CLOSED. That is possible on a private farm, but a bit difficult at a show facility.

[Duffy]

But, for the grace of... I'm sure I speak for most of us. There have been times when I have not had full control of my horse - and not just when I've hit the dirt and they're loose... How often do we go into our horse's stalls and not shut the stall door? How often have we reached to grab something, letting go of our horse for a second...

This is a horrible and tragic accident that could have happened to any of us.

[Sparky Boy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jodes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
There are quite a few fences at the Equestrien Center...but there are also gates so cars, trailers and people can get in. It's not a prison.

It's whoever had control of the horse that is at fault...if they didn't cross tie it or whatever happened that it got away, there is where the blame lies.

Most importantly, a woman died, perhaps due to someone not doing something they probably should have and we'll just have to wait and see what happened.

A woman died, which is a lot more important and serious than a horse dying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is not the time for your hard-nosed attitude, ok? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll second that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Thoughts and prayers to the owner.

[CluesGirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by Trakehner:
There are quite a few fences at the Equestrien Center...but there are also gates so cars, trailers and people can get in. It's not a prison.

It's whoever had control of the horse that is at fault...if they didn't cross tie it or whatever happened that it got away, there is where the blame lies.

Most importantly, a woman died, perhaps due to someone not doing something they probably should have and we'll just have to wait and see what happened.

A woman died, which is a lot more important and serious than a horse dying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Trakehner -
Obviously your horse life has been very uneventful, no surprises, you've never fallen off or had your horse spook and snap away from you while handwalking.

This was a very unfortunate ACCIDENT. Just like the accident my cousin had two years ago when a deer jumped onto his car on a VT highway. He died as a result of that accident.

I'd like to know - can you come up with someone to sue in that situation?

[Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">this is not the time for your hard-nosed attitude, ok? I'll second that. Thoughts and prayers to the owner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not "hard nosed" to say "who had control of the horse last is potentially responsible. I find it sad the "hearts and prayers" for some people here are for the horse first, and the woman, if she's mentioned at all (as above) second.

[onwardb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Duffy:
But, for the grace of... I'm sure I speak for most of us. There have been times when I have not had full control of my horse - and not just when I've hit the dirt and they're loose... How often do we go into our horse's stalls and not shut the stall door? How often have we reached to grab something, letting go of our horse for a second...

This is a horrible and tragic accident that could have happened to any of us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said, Duffy~~~~~~

[shawnee_Acres]

OK, little story here, I went to a schooling show a couple of weeks ago, this is a nice small county run livestock facility with an 8 ft high chain link fence around ENTIRE grounds. During the lunch break a child was schooling on a pony in the ring, the saddle was apparently not tight and saddle slipepd, girl fell off (she was unhurt) and pony began galloping around the ring. Saddle slips more and more, pony panics. Someone has the ring gate SHUT and a horse and rider standing there to prevent horse from getting thru gate/catch pony should it go to the gate. Well pony runs FULL TILT thru the gate and literally thru the man and his horse blicking the gate! Now pony is tearing about, with saddle hanging below the belly, stirrups madly hitting pony in legs, only driving pony to further frnezy. Of course, gate was open due to cars going in/out. Some runs and shuts gate. OK so pony is now contained, but runs for over 20 minutes SLAMMING ITSELF into the chain link fence (luckily it held) and finally they caught poor pony who's legs were beate up from the stirrups. OK, so question is, shoudl pony have gotten thru the main gate, who's fault is this? There was a road RIGHT BESIDE the main gaite with lots of traffic as their is a landfill on the same road. Is it the childs or parents fault for not tightening the girth (should we SUE a child over this??), is it the fault of the show management who made EVERY EFFORT to prevent pony from leaving the ring, including the man with showmanagement getting run over by the pony? How can one even point the finger in these situations? In this case noone was hurt, but easily could have been. I HATE that someone was killed, and that the hrose was killed, but why are we such a nation of "sue-aholics" anyways? Just a question, accidents can and do happen everyday, there is NOT always a definitive person/entity to blame.

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">this is not the time for your hard-nosed attitude, ok? I'll second that. Thoughts and prayers to the owner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not "hard nosed" to say "who had control of the horse last is potentially responsible. I find it sad the "hearts and prayers" for some people here are for the horse first, and the woman, if she's mentioned at all (as above) second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your a souless creature who's an insult to humans and animals alike. End of story.

[Andrew]

The bottom line here is folks..... hug your loved one, tell them you love them as it may be the last time you'll have a chance to http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif
If you are holding a grudge, fighting, haven't spoken to your parents, wife/husband, brother/siseter, grandparent whomever make peace TODAY, the woman who was killed, Farnces' life will not have ended in vane http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

When all is said and done the little stuff really didn't and doesn't matter........

[Duffy]

Trakehner, NO ONE (other than the one poster on page one), here isn't feeling horribly for the poor lady who died and her family/friends. If could have been any of US(or a loved one) behind the wheel as well. Please don't try to read into our minds/hearts, ok?

[Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Obviously your horse life has been very uneventful, no surprises, you've never fallen off or had your horse spook and snap away from you while handwalking. This was a very unfortunate ACCIDENT. Just like the accident my cousin had two years ago when a deer jumped onto his car on a VT highway. He died as a result of that accident. 'd like to know - can you come up with someone to sue in that situation? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Accidents, when people are involved, are usually a series of events that could have been stopped at any point in the series.

A deer jumping into a car is an accident...no argument there.

A horse panics and flips over in the crossties and dies...an accident...unless the owner knew the horse shouldn't be crosstied or they'd panic...then maybe something different.

I had a friend shot one day while hunting. People said, "it was an accident"...but it wasn't. The guy who shot him was asleep in his treestand, it was dark, he shot at a noise that awakened him not seeing the source of the noise. It wasn't an accident loaded his shotgun, aimed it at a noise, shot at a sound without seeing his target and he almost killed a guy. This was not an accident, it was a series of deliberate events.

We only have had an initial news report of what may have happened. Some here bitched about the lack of chainlink fences at "any costs" (PG has chain link fences) and some wanted to go after the innocent woman who died. The horse was innocent, so was the woman...apart from that, it may not have been an "accident" but a series of stupid actions that 99% of the time, by the grace of God, wouldn't have mattered.

Being what you call "hard nosed" may stop this from happening again, "feeling the sorrow for the person who may have caused this" won't.

I hope the dead woman's family sues the hell out someone...someone's daughter/mom/'grandmother is dead due to anothers action...this wasn't a deer.

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
We only have had an initial news report of what may have happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do know the details, I just chose not to post them on a public forum.

[fullmoon fever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
I hope the dead woman's family sues the hell out someone...someone's daughter/mom/'grandmother is dead due to anothers action...this wasn't a deer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet you wouldsue the deer if you could figure out a way to make it pay.

[Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Your a souless creature who's an insult to humans and animals alike. End of story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you're brainless and thinking hormonally...feeling not thinking. Use your brain, not your estrogen...try to think and reason, you might find it novel. I'm sure you haven't had to be responsible in the past and hate the idea of someone actually being potentially judged at fault.

I never attacked anyone personally...Amazing, it seems personal attacks can go both ways. If you're so knowledgeable about the details (not posting them on a public forum) then tell what happened, who are you protecting if it was an "accident?"

[Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bet you wouldsue the deer if you could figure out a way to make it pay. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Venison stew.

[justdandy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:

It's not "hard nosed" to say "who had control of the horse last is potentially responsible. I find it sad the "hearts and prayers" for some people here are for the horse first, and the woman, if she's mentioned at all (as above) second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but it IS a bit hard nosed when you put it this way:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:

It's whoever had control of the horse that is at fault...if they didn't cross tie it or whatever happened that it got away, there is where the blame lies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many things could have happened that led to the horse getting loose (i.e., latch breaking on stall door, snap breaking on lead, halter breaking). Don't automatically jump to conclusions and point the finger!!!!

Also, I don't think anyone here has any less compassion for the driver and her family just because she wasn't mentioned first. It doesn't matter in what order someone mentions their condolences. They are saying they feel for ALL parties involved!!! It doesn't mean anyone here feels any less grief for the driver and her family just because they aren't mentioned first in the order!!!!!!!

[Duffy]

Trakehner loves to continually uphold his opinion that the vast majority of women (other than his current wife) are irrational estrogen-mad entities.

Just because we feel for the people involved with the horse as well as the family of the lady who died doesn't mean we're irrational. It just means that we care about ALL concerned and can put ourselves in the horse's caregiver's place all too easily - and the "what if's" will live on with them forever, just as it will for the family/friends of the lady who died. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[onwardb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:

I hope the dead woman's family sues the hell out someone...this wasn't a deer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I, Trakehner, do surely hope that YOU are never in a similar situation as the handler of this horse at the time ---

--edited because asb is an angel of mercy and sanity--

[Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Also, I don't think anyone here has any less compassion for the driver and her family just because she wasn't mentioned first. It doesn't matter in what order someone mentions their condolences. They are saying they feel for ALL parties involved!!! It doesn't mean anyone here feels any less grief for the driver and her family just because they aren't mentioned first in the order!!!!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it was the comment of "thoughts and prayers to the owner" that got to me.

[Erin]

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!

Trakehner, first of all, stating that someone who disagrees with you is "thinking hormonally" is insulting. Don't peddle your misogynist wares here.

Secondly, horses get loose. It happens. Sometimes through carelessness and sometimes just because horses are horses -- something spooks them, they open a latch, they dump a rider, etc. It happens.

Finally, those of you spouting off about being soulless... if your horse and your mother were standing in the middle of the street and there was no way you could avoid both, who would you choose to mow down?

Thought so.

Now can we just ALL be sympathetic to all parties involved (who are undoubtedly all feeling shattered) and stop making assumptions about a situation that very few of us know the specifics about?

[fullmoon fever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
if your horse and your mother were standing in the middle of the street and there was no way you could avoid both, who would you choose to mow down? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mother. No question about it. It would bring both of us much joy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Duffy:
Trakehner loves to continually uphold his opinion that the vast majority of women (other than his current wife) are irrational estrogen-mad entities.( </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, my comment was addressed only to my personal attacker who wrote: "Your a souless creature who's an insult to humans and animals alike. End of story."

You can take exception to a female's acts & words without "hating women"...

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
Finally, those of you spouting off about being soulless... if your horse and your mother were standing in the middle of the street and there was no way you could avoid both, who would you choose to mow down?

Thought so.

Now can we just ALL be sympathetic to all parties involved (who are undoubtedly all feeling shattered) and stop making assumptions about a situation that very few of us know the specifics about? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry Erin, I'm reflecting on Trakehners past posts on here, which can be, in my opinion, souless.

And again, I'm not making assumptions about anything..just wanted to be clear on that. I was asked not to post on here, just to monitor the rumours and assumptions, but it was, yet again, Trakehner that had me come forward...so, who's the sucker now?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif (that would be me incase I wasn't clear http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

[Duffy]

Well, although you annoy the heck out of me at times, I wouldn't call you souless, Trakehner. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (Unfeeling at times... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

But, when I made that statement, I was speaking to your many posts on many threads. Sometimes, your viewpoints have been insightful. But, most of the time, you truly DO come off as seeing women as an inferior race; your current wife being the exception. Sometimes I feel sorry for you. But, then, you seem happy in yourself, so what's to feel sorry for...

I'm so sorry - didn't mean to take this off topic...

[Uberraschung]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
magnum, that might have happened more than once there... I know that a horse who lost its rider on the cross-country course at the Wayne Horse Trials ran back up the path to the road and was hit by a car and killed.

Since then, for the event at least, they usually have a police crossing guard. But any loose horse at a show there could easily get out onto Army Trail Road. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember that happing at Lamplight at a pony club thing one year too...I was pretty young so it was probably '92 or so?

Winn is a good horsewoman with competant grooms. This is just a sad accident. I don't think it's justified for anyone to point the finger at anyone, especially as probably 99.9% of us aren't privy to the true facts...not like that's ever stopped the COTHers before though! coughcoughJohnAndersoncough http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[SweatySaddlepad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fullmoon fever:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
if your horse and your mother were standing in the middle of the street and there was no way you could avoid both, who would you choose to mow down? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mother. No question about it. It would bring both of us much joy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm are we related http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

This board amazes me always a fight over absolutely EVERYTHING, no post is safe! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

My deepest condolences to ALL involved it sounds like a horrible ACCIDENT.

[bassy]

I am the owner. I would appreciate it if those insulting each other would start another thread to do that and get off this one NOW!!!! I am upset enough already.
I bred this horse, was there when he was born, had not been apart from him for more than 2 weeks for the past 9 years. His name was Poetic Justice because he was 1/4 arab and I knew he was going to be a good hunter despite that. His dad was Ommen, Lynne Little's black show jumper who died a few years back.
His barn name was Guinness because he was dark and stout. He cribbed, he spooked, but he was a good boy and he loved me. He always nickered when I came in the barn. He taught me so much and we learned together.
He and Winn LOVED each other. He was off to the start of a great career. It was cut short. I am not blaming anyone, and I don't care about blame.
I was not there, so I do not know exactly what happened. I will also not say anything else concerning that for reasons already stated here.
I DO have an umbrella policy and my insurance company has already told me they have lawyers that will take care of me.
Please just pray that horses do have an afterlife and that he is happy where he is. I feel I gave him a good life. Not the best, but as good as I could afford.
I have one other horse, and she is in surgery to get a tear that happened when her foal died inside her in May. It helps that I have her, I can keep myself together for her and my dogs and my friends and family.

[fullmoon fever]

My sincere condolences to you bassy. I'm very happy to hear that you have insurance. We all know that sh@% happens; especially in the world of horses. It's extremely heart-breaking when the sh@% is of such a magnitude.

I wish you the best of luck with your mare and will keep you (and the other family) in my prayers. *big hugs*

[Luvinfoofy]

Oh bassy, I'm so very sorry for your loss. I can't say anything to ease the pain, but my thoughts and prayers are with you and Guiness.

[Duffy]

{{{{{ HUGS }}}}} to you, bassy, and to all concerned!

[onwardb]

Bassy - I'm still at a loss for words -- but our thoughts and prayers (and some of our bodies) are right there with you holding you up... We are all so sorry for your loss.....

May your beloved Guinness be met over the bridge by all those that have gone before him with fat carrots, peppermints and joy until we see each other again~~~~~

[LUVMYQH]

(((Hugs))) Bassy

I'm so very sorry that this happened. I can't even imagine how you must be feeling right now. Nothing we can say will stop your sadness, but I want you to know that we care and for those of us who pray, we'll include you and the family of the driver in our prayers.

[alabama]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Duffy:
But, for the grace of... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was at work one day last year and got a call the my donkeys were loose on the highway. Truckers were blowing their airhorns at them. This could have been me. I don't know how their gate got opened but it did. I was 50 miles away. Luckily, my neighbors caught them for me. Now they gates are locked 100% of the time. I was scared to death.

This could happen to anyone at anytime. What a nightmare for both parties. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Sobriska]

Bassy:
I just came across this thread and could not believe the BS and bickering, especially when it was already mentioned the horse's owner was a COTH member. I am so sorry for your loss and for what added more pain to something already horrible.
My heart goes out to all involved in this tragic accident.

[Luvinfoofy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uberraschung:
I remember that happing at Lamplight at a pony club thing one year too...I was pretty young so it was probably '92 or so?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't been there in years.. but I was wondering, is Lamplight the barn that is on a major highway with a toll station very closeby? (Almost visible from some parts?) I remember there being a huge wall near the ring that would prevent any horses from getting onto the highway, but it seems like the cars were REALLY close. Maybe I'm thinking of Ledges? Could you describe the set up of Lamplight quickly if you are familiar with the place? I'm trying to sort out my memories..

[Cindeye]

How incredibly tragic all around. Tragic for the family of the woman who was killed. Tragic for Bassy. (((((Bassy))))) Tragic for the trainer.

Maybe we could all take two steps back here and remember that sometimes in life, unpredictable ACCIDENTS happen. It is an ACCIDENT if a horse gets loose...after all, they are 1200 pound animals with minds of their own and we merely try to exercise control over them. It is an ACCIDENT when someone hits a moving animal in a dimly lit situation on a highway. IMHO, no one is at fault here.

ACCIDENT:
1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE &lt;met by accident rather than by design&gt;

[Invested1]

So, so, so sorry for all involved---my heart breaks for you! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[pooh]

Hugs to Bassy and all those involved!! I couldn't imagine what you are going through, and how you and all involved are going to wonder how it could of been prevented. I've had my horse who normally you can ground tie- take off when he decided he'd had enough while being bridled. Luckily he ran towards the show ring instead of the other direction which would of been the road. What this should do is remind all of us that horses are animals with instincts- and we should never let our guard down whether at home or a show. As for show grounds- no they are not prisions but fencing that blocks access to a major highway helps to keep everyone secure. Even if the horse would find an open gate- hopefully it would be leading away from traffic ( and yes horses can be killed on the side roads too). I've been at a few local shows where they keep someone stationed at the gate for that very reason.

Nothing can bring the horse and rider back, but maybe we can all learn from anothers loss.

[2 tbs]

Oh bassy! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif The fact that you felt you had to jump on here and say anything at all is very sad indeed. Today didn't hold enough for you and then the lovely finger pointers had to start.

I for one know that it is not human or horse error when these things happen...they just happen. I ride with the indoor arena doors open all the time. I never close the outdoor gate when I ride or lunge. My horse is out on night turnout but his pasture is at a very sharp bend on a very busy road and folks have crashed the fence before (horses seem to stay put but the cars don't respect the 5 ft white fence http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

I had my other horse at this farm years ago. A horse broke the crossties and ran down the lane to the road, turned left and headed into the neighbors yard-he hates us and came out with his shotgun http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif The owner was in hot pursuit but if the horse hadn't gone into his yard she woulda been face to face with a steady stream of fast travelling vehicles...they were lucky.

I am nervous EVERY day since one of our boarders puts horse out between the barns where he's not held by a fence. She has a lunge line attached but that's it!!!! We tell her all the time that she will be at fault even if he was in a fence a broke out-she won't listen. I am taking this thread to her tonight so hopefully she can be one person who learns from the freak accidents that happen with horses.

Please don't feel you need to justify yourself, your horse, your trainer, your groom, etc. Some folks can't help themselves but point fingers. I always say to those people: for every finger you point at someone else you always have 3 pointed back at you! Not a single one of us has any right to point any finger - we are all guilty of things that could lead to danger...we are just lucky that they usually don't. It's always that one time when you think you are being safe that something unfortunate happens.

My condolences and {{{HUGS}}} to you, those involved with your horse, and the family/friends of the driver. CoTHers always come together in a time of need...even if there are a few rotten apples in the bunch http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ... CoTH is here if you need it-for support not to justify yourself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[Bea]

Utterly awful situation. bassy, so sorry for your loss. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif My deepest sympathies to all involved.

In my state, NY, I need to carry liability insurance for my horse. Even though she is boarded at a farm that also needs to carry liability insurance for her. I suppose the degree to which the farm and I would each be held responsible might vary according to the particular situation that occurred.

When I was younger, I carried my horse through a special rider on my rental insurance. Now she's carried on a rider on my homeowner's policy. Costs me about $100 a year for one horse. Some homeowner's policies automatically cover any owned livestock. Some don't. At least, that's my understanding. Anyone who doesn't know the answer regarding their own horses needs to pick up the telephone and call their insurance agent today.

[HOOF IT]

Bassy, sounds like you have been through quite a lot lately, and now this. I am sincerely sorry for your loss of Guinness, my heart goes out to you. I don't know how you mustered up enough strength to even type out your post to set people straight, but don't let these people upset you. Take care.......there are a lot of people praying for you to get through this tough time. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[asb_own_me]

Bassy, I am so sorry for your loss, and doubly sorry that you've had to wade through all of the unnecessary bickering that took place.

Perhaps those involved could agree to delete their posts? It would be a nice gesture.

[2Dogs]

Oh Bassy - damn http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif :cry

My deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the driver.

And for once, could we not look to blame someone - no-one has perfect foresight for what might happen given any set of circumstances.

Now, Hurricane Katrina -

[onwardb]

Asb, you are an angel... I'm going back up there and dumping one of mine...

Trakehner - my apologies... And I assure you, were it you in Bassy's situation, my compassionate heart would indeed extend to you.......

[bassy]

Thanks to all. It is still kind of not true to me. I can't believe the horse I trained and cared for and worried over and got supplements for and saddle fitted for and smiled whenever I saw him (unless he had just spooked at the door for the 100th time) is gone. We were going to show at Local day, he was going to be a "green" next year, Winn and some of her helpers even talked about moving him up to 3'6".

I always try to close the gate when I come or leave the barn. It just seems to make sense.

In regards to the Eq Center. I agree a fence around the perimeter would be nice. To keep folks out (it isn't the best area crime wise) as well as catching the occasional stray animal. There are lots of dogs wandering around without leashes there too.

Oh, could someone tell Winn I will call her later, I am too upset to talk to anyone I don't have to now. For some reason, electronic isn't bothering me too much. I have gotten down to only a sob every few minutes.

I am getting him cremated. I want to use his ashes to plant something. Anyone know the Ph of ashes? I want to start looking for something beautiful, but a little temperamental, and that springs forth from the ground like my Guin did when he jumped. It must also be hardy and like the cold. I live in Chesapeake Beach, Maryland. I figure someone here must be a gardener. Damn, another sob.

What kind of headache medicine can you use for this. I am throbbing.

Bea,
I didn't get the liability, as Allstate said their umbrella would cover it. I think I will add it to Lilly now.

Alicia Moore (in case anyone doesn't know who I am yet)

[Uberraschung]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uberraschung:
I remember that happing at Lamplight at a pony club thing one year too...I was pretty young so it was probably '92 or so?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't been there in years.. but I was wondering, is Lamplight the barn that is on a major highway with a toll station very closeby? (Almost visible from some parts?) I remember there being a huge wall near the ring that would prevent any horses from getting onto the highway, but it seems like the cars were REALLY close. Maybe I'm thinking of Ledges? Could you describe the set up of Lamplight quickly if you are familiar with the place? I'm trying to sort out my memories.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're thinking of Ledges. Lamplight is more rural in that it's not right next to the highway, but the road that goes by it is very busy and the cars drive very fast.

Sorry about your loss Alicia.

[Applesauce]

Bassy: Exederine Migraine works well. My heartfelt sympathies to you. Please know you are in our thoughts. I can't help you with the gardening question as my thumb is brown rather than green but I think that is a beautiful idea.

[17handtb]

Bassy, I'm so terribly sorry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Guinness sounds like one heck of a horse. No doubt a spirit that strong and proud will always be around.

My heartfelt condolences to you, Winn, and of course to the family and friends of Ms. Imwalle.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uberraschung:
I remember that happing at Lamplight at a pony club thing one year too...I was pretty young so it was probably '92 or so?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They had (and still have, I'm sure) rallies there frequently... and actually, I suppose it COULD have been at a CT rally instead of at the event. It was most likely after I'd gone off to college because I wasn't there competing, so early 90s could be about right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
I haven't been there in years.. but I was wondering, is Lamplight the barn that is on a major highway with a toll station very closeby? (Almost visible from some parts?) I remember there being a huge wall near the ring that would prevent any horses from getting onto the highway, but it seems like the cars were REALLY close. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lamplight isn't right near the toll road. In fact, Army Trail Road is only a two-lane road, and the speed limit is probably only 45... but cars tend to go VERY fast, and it's a busy road. The facility is on one side, and the forest preserve is on the other, so you have to cross the road to get to the cross-country course.

There is a sand ring right next to the road... I'm sure there's a hedge or fence or something between the two, but even if that was enough to keep a horse in, it'd just have to run down the fenceline a short distance to get to the driveway.

Ledges isn't right next to the toll road either, as far as I can recall. (Only been there twice.) You might be thinking of Indian Hills in Gilbert? Their facility is actually divided by the toll road. The XC course is on one side and the barns and rings are on the other.

Oh, wait, now I remember... the toll road runs BEHIND Ledges...

At any rate, I'm sure there are lots of show facilities that are close enough to roads where this is an issue... and I'm sure this scenario has happened before, and will happen again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[asb_own_me]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bassy:
What kind of headache medicine can you use for this. I am throbbing.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's really too bad we can't take time in a pill form. Time is the only thing that will make this easier. I am so sorry for your loss.

[onwardb]

Bassy, how about two advil and a warm pepsi? Works for me...

Gardening -- what a dear you are to be thinking this way... I'm a smidge farther down south than you and have a suggestion which does just what you're looking for: Clematis Rosemoor-- you can find it on http://www.waysidegardens.com or possibly at Homestead... Its a lovely climbing plant, temperamental in that it prefers its roots in the shade (reminds me of spooky horses) but its body in the sun, looks like sticks in the winter (or you can prune the wood back as any self-respecting cribber would do) but come spring - ohhhhhh, come spring it "springs" up and is full of life - beautiful leaves and wonderful, wonderful blossoms...

Okay, now I'm sobbing... I'm sorry, again, Bassy...

[Briggsie]

Bassy,
I am sorry. I really am. YOu dont know me, but if you need to talk, pt me, I will listen. As for everyone arguing on here....well, I guess people will speak their minds, despite how other people are feeling. Guys...for Bassy's sake, stop the caustic remarks...I think Erin probably already did...but either way, there is not way to pitch blame on anyone. No one in their right mind could have ever wished for something like this to happen to anyone. I cannot even imagine how I would feel.

[Quinn]

bassy, my heart is absolutely breaking for you. I can't even imagine the horror. I'm so sorry. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Horsaholic]

My sincere condolences to you Bassy, your horse and the woman who lost her life in this tragic accident. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[SmileGee]

Bassy...No words...I am so sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine the pain that you are feeling right now. Please find some comfort in the thought that many people are thinking of you and praying for you in this horrible time. If there is anything you need to help you please feel free to contact me.....I can't stop thinking of you and your beloved Guiness...

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
It's whoever had control of the horse that is at fault...if they didn't cross tie it or whatever happened that it got away, there is where the blame lies.
A woman died, which is a lot more important and serious than a horse dying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In YOUR opinion, Trak! You don't know if the horse was crosstied or not - or whether is broke loose or not - accidents happen, Trak...but apparently never to YOU!

[monstrpony]

I cannot imagine what you must be feeling, bassy. So very, very sorry for your tragic loss.

Everyone affected by this tragedy is in my thoughts.

[Roomfor2]

So very very sorry.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

Bassy, my sincere condolences.
You gave your baby a good life and I am sure he knew he was loved.
And for you:

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge.
There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together.
There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by.
The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

Author unknown...

[bassy]

Thanks for the suggestions on pills. I have decided upon Advil cold and sinus, as I can't breathe and the headache feels the same as a sinus one.
pacificsolo,
I love them, and did plan on planting a few more (have an oakleaf right now, but it doesn't bloom much), maybe I will just have to plant them earlier then next year now.
17handtb,
Yes, he was wonderful. Certainly not perfect, but he made me proud to have been his owner and rider and trainer.
onwardb,
I looked it up. Perfect, as the psychic I hired a while back said red was his favorite color.
I am sobbing again too. I have had to close my office door.

Seahorse, NO NOT THAT!!!! Even reading the first few lines is making me cry so hard I can't see!!!!!!! I cry every time I read it.
Of course, I hope God is taking care of him and is letting him eat lots of grass, and has cured whatever caused him to crib, and is letting fly around jump courses with someone who doesn't catch his mouth!!! That was his favorite thing, to jump. He put up with dressage, but once he started jumping, the engine kicked in.
Alicia

[J Swan]

bassy -

I'm sorry for your loss. Don't take this the wrong way - but please don't post anything more about this accident or your horse; especially your horses habits or personality. And I would recommend that you print out this thread for your lawyers.

This is discoverable.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gifI know...I lost Gambit a year ago and it made me cry, too, but somehow also made me feel he was OK...
JSawn - I don't think she needs to worry about that...horses are live animals and unpredictable by nature...

[Equine Connection]

I can find no words to adequately express my sorrow and compassion for everyone involved - for Guiness's owner, the person(s) who tried to catch him (who will also have to bear this heavy burden for the rest of their life), the deceased driver, and equally, the horse. What a horrific tragedy. Our thoughts and prayers are with them all.

[caffeinated]

I just can't imagine having something like this happen- bassy, my thoughts are with you, and also the driver, her family, and everyone else involved. Such a shame.

[trailblazer]

oh my gosh http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Sincerest condolences to EVERYONE involved! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Ride'emCO]

Oh, bassy, my deepest sympathies go out to you, and everyone involved. I have no words... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Sing Mia Song]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bassy:

I am getting him cremated. I want to use his ashes to plant something. Anyone know the Ph of ashes? I want to start looking for something beautiful, but a little temperamental, and that springs forth from the ground like my Guin did when he jumped. It must also be hardy and like the cold. I live in Chesapeake Beach, Maryland. I figure someone here must be a gardener. Damn, another sob.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bassy, I'm no gardener (I have a black thumb), but I always used to scatter the ashes of the dogs from the emergency clinic (some owners just couldn't bring themselves to take them home) on our hayfield.

I remember from the Willem thread that Coreene planted Rosemary for rememberance. It wouldn't winter that well up here, but perhaps a few sprigs?

When Horsey Nurse and I lost our special boys, we picked out trees that reflected their personalities. Smitty's is a River Birch, which has curly bark, because he had Cushings. Mystic's is a Japanese Maple--tall and slim and dark like he was. Perhaps you could do the same in finding a tree that will reflect Guinness'
personality?

I am so, so sorry for your loss.

[SweatySaddlepad]

Bassy I'm so sorry, your boy sounds wonderful. Bittersweet yet oddly wonderful we had an Ommen baby in our barn, he won everything in 1st, 2nd and juniors and he sounds so much like your boy, he was quite quirky, but wonderful, talented and beautiful, he was lost several years back also. Perhaps his half brother was at the bridge to greet him along with their pop.......Godspeed Guinness http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[Castlegate]

Bassy: Deepest condolences to you and all others involved......so very sorry for your loss... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Marli]

Bassy-

There simply are no words for what was God's choosing for today. He is the creator of all things living, and the decider - and although this leaves those loved ones of both the driver and your horse, questioning and wondering why, only God knows the answer. With certainty God stretched his arms open wide as he welcomed them into heaven, a place of peace, warmth, harmony and comfort.

My heartfelt condolences for your loss, and many prayers to comfort all those grieving. Only time can heal...

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 2 tbs:
I never close the outdoor gate when I ride or lunge.

.....

I am nervous EVERY day since one of our boarders puts horse out between the barns where he's not held by a fence. She has a lunge line attached but that's it!!!! We tell her all the time that she will be at fault even if he was in a fence a broke out-she won't listen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please start closing your gate. I say this in the nicest way.

And as for the loose horse between barns, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Is this your own farm? Then YOU will be liable. How can she not listen? - your place, your rules.

And deepest, deepest condolences to you, Alicia, and to all the families involved. Again, however, please heed J Swan's post. She's right.

[Astraled]

Bassy, I am heartbroken for you. Guinness knows he is loved. I truly believe that he will find his way back to you http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif.

[race_run_jump]

I am so sorry to hear this. I lost a homebred this past spring - I planted an apple tree and 2 lilacs on his grave.
I agree with JSwan - talk abt feelings on here, but not specifics. Nobody really needs to know, anyway.
So sorry.

[*FoxFire*]

Prayers for you and your family!
I am so so so terribly sorry for your loss and I hope you come to peace knowing he is happy in heaven.

Kudos to you for your attitude about not blaming everyone. I bet that is hard. I know for myself I would jump to blame someone if it wasnt myself.


I can tell you from experience that being the person that hurt a horse (accidentaly of course like your situation) I felt VERY VERY guilty and cried for at least a month. The horse is now ride-able but it took a lot to get him there.

Again my heart goes out to you, and know your pony loved you because you loved him.

::Angel:: http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Anne FS]

P.S. Rosemary for remembrance is a lovely idea.

It's an evergreen. Although up north it's recommended to bring it inside in winter, mine so far has come back each Spring (South central Penna.)

One of its uses is as a fragrant addition to hot bath water - you can either tie some sprigs together and let the hot water fall on them, or if just using the 'needles', I put them in a tea ball to hold them in one spot. It gives a lovely, pine-y smell and is wonderful for relaxing, and for memories.

[Andrew]

Bassy,

{{{{{{{ HUGE}}}}}}}}}}
A Martini and I said "A"=1 will take the edge off too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uberraschung:
I remember that happing at Lamplight at a pony club thing one year too...I was pretty young so it was probably '92 or so?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They had (and still have, I'm sure) rallies there frequently... and actually, I suppose it COULD have been at a CT rally instead of at the event. It was most likely after I'd gone off to college because I wasn't there competing, so early 90s could be about right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
I haven't been there in years.. but I was wondering, is Lamplight the barn that is on a major highway with a toll station very closeby? (Almost visible from some parts?) I remember there being a huge wall near the ring that would prevent any horses from getting onto the highway, but it seems like the cars were REALLY close. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lamplight isn't right near the toll road. In fact, Army Trail Road is only a two-lane road, and the speed limit is probably only 45... but cars tend to go VERY fast, and it's a busy road. The facility is on one side, and the forest preserve is on the other, so you have to cross the road to get to the cross-country course.

There is a sand ring right next to the road... I'm sure there's a hedge or fence or something between the two, but even if that was enough to keep a horse in, it'd just have to run down the fenceline a short distance to get to the driveway.

Ledges isn't right next to the toll road either, as far as I can recall. (Only been there twice.) You might be thinking of Indian Hills in Gilbert? Their facility is actually divided by the toll road. The XC course is on one side and the barns and rings are on the other.

Oh, wait, now I remember... the toll road runs BEHIND Ledges...

At any rate, I'm sure there are lots of show facilities that are close enough to roads where this is an issue... and I'm sure this scenario has happened before, and will happen again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lamplight--the "big" Wayne Event 1992 is the one I was there for. A horse lost it's rider on x-country. Ran back along the path/drive. Upset another horse that was done & being handwalked back. Both horses were loose running back towards Army Trail. Horses burst out onto road & were hit by a semi. I believe at the time speed limit was 55 (is now 45). The 1st horse got hit pretty much full on & was put to sleep. The 2nd horse (which was the original loose horse) got glanced by the truck & needed major fixing up/stitching, but lived (what happened afterwards I don't know). The driver was quite shaken up as the horses appeared out of nowhere & there wasn't much he could do/have done different. They have since re-routed how horses return to the stabling area from x-country & have taken many other pre-cautions to ensure the safety of everybody.

Ledges borders I-90 right before the WI border & there is a tollbooth right there also. There is a berm, some trees & fence, maybe even another "tollway" fence. As far as I know, no loose horse has ever made it on to the tollway. Indian Hills also borders I-90 & their x-country course is on the other side which is accessible by crossing over a bridge along a road I believe. I am not that familiar with their set-up & how they handle events.

Anytime this happens no matter what discipline, it is very sad & heartbreaking for all involved. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Midge]

Bassy, there is a variety of Columbine called Guiness. It is my favorite perennial. A bit fussy in it's placing but extremely rewarding when happy.

[philosoraptor]

Wow. What a tragedy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I can't blame the driver, the horse handler, or the horse. It was just a case of the horse taking off unexpectedly, no fence kept him in, and in his run ended up jumping out in front of a car. It's so sad all around.

I'm familiar with Rt 4 and I've driven by the PG equestrian center a few times (though never been inside). It strikes me as odd there were enough open gates during a big horse show that would allow a horse to immediately end up on Rt 4. Rt 4 is a big, busy 4-lane divided highway where cars often go 60-70Mph. I'm just shocked there wasn't someone looking after perimeter fencing or making sure there wasn't some sort of fence that channeled loose animals *away* from the highway. It's not as if having horses is a new thing for the Center. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I hope the Equestrian Center reviews their fencing policies and finds ways to avoid this from ever happening again.

[tbtula]

My deepest sympathies for all involved. You have been in my thoughts all day http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[bassy]

Midge,
Oh my G*D, perfect too!!! I love trees, plants, of all kinds. Maybe I will go on a spree and just go crazy. I like Columbine too, I will look into that. Already have an indoor rosemary, and love the smell.

All,
So, I have a tree to choose, a hydrangea, a clematis, and a columbine. All perfect. All will find a home. I want to keep some of the ashes, but will at least sprinkle some of his essence on these plants.

Tree wise, not sure there. I like several, but need to think which would reflect his build. It would have to be dark barked, have to repel water (water beaded on his hair for some reason), be stocky, but still refined. He had a tail that dragged on the ground. Largeish ears, but not too big. He had a big white star in the shape of a lopsided cross on his forehead. The night he was born a star was shining brightly, on March 11, 2006.

My parents planted a yoshino cherry the day he was born in honor of him, and it is still growing strong.

Oh, why do you guys think that talking about his personality will get me in trouble? He wasn't spooky on the ground, just under saddle, and he wasn't under saddle at the time. He was the vet, dentist, and farrier's favorite. Always stood still, trusted people, had great feet, and never flinched from injections. It is helping me to talk about him, good and bad things.

SweatySaddlepad,
That is so neat to hear from someone who knew another Ommy. He seemed to stamp that jump, didn't he! I hope he welcomed Guin this morning along with daddy. What was the name of the one you knew?

Lilly is in surgery right now, please say a prayer!

Thanks
Alicia

[Vandy]

Bassy, I am so very sorry for your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and everyone else involved in this tragedy. (((Hugs))) to you.

[2 tbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Anne FS:
Please start closing your gate. I say this in the nicest way.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">You can bet I will now! Tragic that it takes someone elses misfortune to make you do the right things but from now I will definitely be closing the gate!!</span>

And as for the loose horse between barns, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Is this your own farm? Then YOU will be liable. How can she not listen? - your place, your rules.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Not my farm unfortunately...if it were, the loose between the barns thing wouldn't have started so it wouldn't need stopped! I'm hoping I can take poor bassy's situation to her and have her understand that I/we care for her and her horse and want everyone to be safe. She says the horse won't leave but he has already headed toward the road on more than one occasion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif-some people deserve consequences but never get 'em...it's always those like bassy that suffer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .</span>

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bassy]

I would like to post a picture of Guin I took a few weeks ago of him and my Collie kissing. Is there anyone I can send it to?

[inca]

I'd be happy to post it send it to julieawright AT excite.com.

I am so sorry for your loss and hope your mare makes it through surgery with flying colors.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Bassy--so sorry for your loss! [[[hugs]]] My condolences to all the parties involved. How terrible.

[Anne FS]

Bassy, all the plant ideas sound perfect! One named Guinness, no less!

Many hugs to you and jingles for your mare to come through surgery with flying colors.

[RugBug]

bassy, I'm so sorry you are having to live through every horse owner's nightmare. Thre really are no words.

[JoZ]

Bassy, I am so sorry for your loss. Please think of us all as sharing your pain, or at least willing to. And please take care of yourself.

[bassy]

A little bit of good news. Lilly came through well, and should be able pee and hold her urine now. She will have to get a caslicks to keep her uterus clean, but they think she will be breedable! One good bit of news on this horrible day.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

a silver lining from the rainbow bridge? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[17hTBmare]

I too am including everyone involved in this terrible tragedy in my prayers. Bassy, please consider what J Swan says. Not everyone in this world has a heart full of love, trust, respect, or honor.

[Erin Pittman]

Oh, how sad!!! I am so sorry to hear of your loss Bassy. Lots of {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}} to you and the family that lost their daughter/mother/sister!!

Eerily enough, my car broke down right at the 301/4 intersection this morning around 9:00. I'm not normally a superstitious person, but I might become one now.

[OakesBrae]

My prayers and sympathies are with both you, bassy, and the others involved.

[bassy]

Thanks again to all.
17hTB, I am guilty of trusting folks until they prove themselves untrustworthy. I thought I was careful in what I said. I am only worried word may have leaked to where I live. I really don't want to talk to the press, I am not sure what I would say. And no matter what I said, they would turn it around. Erin, I am not too supersticious, but this is our third animal death this year. Lilly's baby was first, then my mom's dog, who I was close to also, then this. It makes me realize how fragile life is, and how you have to cherish every day. Don't feel much like cherishing right now, but I plan on it as soon as I can possibly do so.
Leaving now to go meet Lilly at the barn. She is going to be cuddled till she wants to kill me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[bassy]

Oh, inca, I e mailed you the photo. If you didn't get it let me know and I will try again.
Thanks all, I will sign back on again tomorrow.

[CBoylen]

So sorry http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. My condolences to everyone involved.
I heard about this accident through the grapevine midday, and I knew several people on the board ride with Winn. I was really hoping the horse didn't belong to one of them, and I was very sad to get home and come across Bassy's post about her loss.

[How Bout No (Karrie)]

((hugs)) My deepest thoughts are to you and everyone involved. I really don't know what to say...and you are right, life is very fagile and every time you breath, could be you're last, you just don't know..again ((hugs)) and I am sure he is looking down on you, and will always be with you

[inca]

I haven't received the photo yet but maybe the e-mail is being slow. If you don't see it posted tonight, I didn't get it. Sometimes people miss the "a" in the middle of my e-mail address. It is julieawright AT excite.com.

[jilltx]

Oh bassy...I have nothing to offer but my most sincere and heartfelt condolences.

What a truly heartbreaking accident for all involved.

[J Swan]

bassy-

Again I implore you not to post any more information or your thoughts on this matter, and I urge you not to talk to anyone about this accident. These things can go south very quickly.

This is a horrible, tragic accident. It is also a possible wrongful death claim, negligent homicide charge, or other very very serious allegation.

These posts can be discovered (in the LEGAL sense of the word) by the opposing party. They are evidence.

This is not a fender bender. A human being has died. It is heartbreaking for all concerned. It is also a serious legal matter.

I am not blind to your pain and sorrow - I am only concerned that you may be getting yourself into a legal mess by making public your thoughts, your emotions, or possible facts of the case.

Trust me on this.

[Tara]

Bassy,

I want to extend my condolences on Guinness' death. (I had sent you an email but my address for you is from quite awhile ago...)

I remember years ago when you showed off your youngster to me, you were so proud of your baby. He was a lovely horse.

Guinness was very lucky to have you as an owner. You love your horses and you do your best to make them happy and comfortable.

I hope you can find comfort in memories of Guinness.

*HUGS*

[Darkwave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
bassy-

Again I implore you not to post any more information or your thoughts on this matter, and I urge you not to talk to anyone about this accident. These things can go south very quickly.

...

I am not blind to your pain and sorrow - I am only concerned that you may be getting yourself into a legal mess by making public your thoughts, your emotions, or possible facts of the case.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. It's really NOT wise to keep posting here, no matter how comforting it may be. This advice has nothing to do with who, if anyone, was at fault -- it's simply common sense. Anything you post here may later be referenced in a law suit, and you have no idea what the "theory of the case" will be in that suit, if one is filed.

[findeight]

The insurance company can and may well bring suit to recover their pay out whether the principles agree to it or not.

I just received yet another demand from my own insurance company. I broke my arm last November on my own horse (or off, actually) and they are still demanding to know the name of the property owner so they can "recoup" their "losses".

Don't assume all lawsuits are brought by the parties involved, or that they even agree to them. Insurance companies that pay out a claim have standing to sue...and they do.

[BasqueMom]

Bassy,

Sincere condolences on the loss of Guinness.
And to the family of the driver who probably will never see this.

My apologies for the turn this thread took earlier.

[dogchushu]

Bassy, I'm so sorry for your loss!

I was at PGE this morning with some folks from my barn. We'd heard about the accident on the radio traffic reports and felt horrible for all involved. It was truly heartbreaking.

Your gardening plan sounds like a wonderful tribute. Take care of yourself, and please know a lot of people are sending you their best wishes and sympathy.

[Cashela]

Bassy, I am so sorry for your loss. *HUGS*
I hope that Lily handled her surgery well.

This is my biggest fear.

I was riding my mare once on a trail near home when my stirrup leather broke while cantering. I got launched and my mare wheeled and galloped away straight for the busy road. I was fortunate that she did not run into a car when she entered the road because the trail is right off of it. She galloped about a 1/2 mile before a school bus driver stopped her bus and captured her. The whole time I was running and crying, calling her name and praying that she would be ok. It was the worst experience ever.

I am so sorry.

Prayers to you and the woman's family.

[cvl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bassy:
My parents planted a yoshino cherry the day he was born in honor of him, and it is still growing strong.
Alicia </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How horrible - so sorry to hear of your loss! A yoshino cherry to honor the day he was born - I vote for a weeping cherry to remember him by. They are beautiful, refined trees but not stocky tho.

[Chsnt Mare]

FYI...an article on a local news website has a quote that probably came from this website.
I am a horse owner and know one of the parties involved very well...I am very sorry for what everyone involved has gone through today and will continue to go through for a long time. I understand how comforting it may be for Bassy to talk about what has happened, but do please watch what you say...EVERYONE.

[jn1193]

(((((Bassy)))) I've wept through most of this thread.

My sincere condolances for your loss. It's a horrible, horrible accident and one that will haunt you for a long time.

Condolances also for the family of the driver. How awful for them as well.

And, how awful for Winn and the braider. Everyone is suffering over this.

Rosemary for remembrance. For some time to come, I will think of you everytime I cook with some.

[Instant Karma]

Bassy-

My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your boy, Guinness. I am so very sorry for your tragic loss.

It's horrible to think that in a situation like this, you have to consider the legal side of things, instead of being able to focus on your loss and picking up the pieces. But thank God that you have insurance, and that is one less thing you have to worry about.

You are certainly in my thoughts, I wish there was something we could do or say that would make you feel betterhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

What a horrible nightmare. But I'm sure you have a dark and handsome guardian angel watching over your shoulder now... it helps to know someone's got your backhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kenike]

Bassy, first let me lend my condolences to you. I found out via phone call with another COTH member, and it breaks my heart. I am sooo sorry, have been crying with you, and will be praying for you.

Second, I echo the suggestion of the Guinness Columbine. I have one, it bloomed a reddish color this year, and it's done superbly in my "garden of coal" (a small flower garden in an old coal bin). I love your idea of a garden in his honor, and I know those I've tended over the years have helped the most in my healing process.

Lastly, and maybe most important, PLEASE heed the advice of no more public posting beyond a "thank you." The news reports have already stated they've garnished much of their info on your horse from internet postings and boards (probably here). It won't take long for too much information to be released, and we're all just concerned for you.


Prayers also for the other lady's family, and all others involved.

[Instant Karma]

How about this thread gets deleted so nothing said here can be used in any way?

And maybe we can start a condolences thread, with just those types of posts, so we can still share our sympathy?

[Cartier]

I'd second that...

[Luvinfoofy]

Third, please? ASAP?

[Tara]

Fourth please...

And Bassy, please don't post Guinness' photo at this time. Please wait on this.

There is a News4 article on this here: http://www.nbc4.com/news/4976326/detail.html

They mention *several* times that they got info via the Internet. (I would assume COTH BB.)

[countingstrides]

Bassy -
I have a cold Guinness in the fridge that I will crack open now as a tribute. I'm so sorry for your loss, and that of the family of the driver.

[bluewatersail]

Bassy, I just want you to know that I'm very sorry. Maybe you can keep a personal diary in which you will express your thoughts until you're ready to chat with friends in person, I think that's best.

Moderators,Please delete this thread.

[J Swan]

It's too late. Even the deleted thread is discoverable. Just because it's deleted does not mean the oppposing party cannot subpoena it.

Folks - in an accident, dispute or another other matter that might end up in court - keep your mouth shut.

[Cartier]

Our hearts go out to the family of the woman killed in this terrible accident; this is a tragic situation. We also send condolences to those who knew and loved the horse.

Whether this thread is eventually discoverable is one thing... whether things written here are being quoted in the press is another. And - of course - you are correct; deleting the thread would not make it disappear for all time. I am guessing that a forensic audit would always reveal the tread. However, Bassy can certainly go back and delete her comments… that is simple enough.

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I knew several people on the board ride with Winn. I was really hoping the horse didn't belong to one of them, and I was very sad to get home and come across Bassy's post about her loss. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really hoping that the woman who died wasnt a member of this BB, and that her children have a good support system to help them grow up without their mother.
Bassy, i'm really sorry to hear about your horse--the situation is unbelievably tragic and I cannot imagine what I would do in your shoes.

But shouldnt most of us also remember that a woman lost her life?

[Darkwave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Swan:
It's too late. Even the deleted thread is discoverable. Just because it's deleted does not mean the oppposing party cannot subpoena it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I agree. Additionally (though I'm not familiar with the relevant law in MD), someone might try to formulate an argument that an attempt to delete this thread is an attempt to destroy evidence -- an attempt to obstruct justice. You really don't want to go there.

Lesson: anything that comes out of your mouth, is written on paper, or typed on screen is there for all time, and can be used against you.

Bassy: Don't post anything more and be careful about whom you discuss this with and what you say. I wouldn't keep a private diary of your thoughts either.

I recommend that you contact an attorney, not because you or anyone associated with you appears to have done or has done anything wrong, but because anyone connected to a situation like this could benefit from legal advice.

Everyone else: PLEASE be careful about what you post, especially if it's making guesses/assumptions or hypothesizing about the responsibilities/liability of the driver, the owner, those on the show grounds, or the management of the facility.

[Tara]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FairWeather:
But shouldnt most of us also remember that a woman lost her life? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone on this board is forgetting that someone lost their life in this horrible accident. I do think, however, that everyone is responding in a way which is appropriate to the situation in that we know Bassy is on this BB. Since there has been no indication that Ms. Imwalle, friends, or family have ever participated in the COTH BB, I would daresay assume that people would respond to them not in a public forum but privately, or in a forum which would be reached by their family.

No doubt many prayers are being said privately by the COTH "family" to Ms. Imwalle and her family. But, I would assume, the COTH BB isn't the arena in which her family would receive them.

What you, apparently/supposedly, see as heartlessness or lack of tact by forum members, I see more as responding appropriately in the circumstanstances. If you know Ms. Imwalle's family, please include my condolences to them. I never thought they would be lurking on this group (as the newsreporters are doing) since they, no doubt, are grief-stricken and this, presumably, has not been a forum for which they have historically come for help or comfort (unlike Bassy).

[ChocoMare]

Our deepest and most heartfelt sympathies to Bassy and the Imwalle family. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[17hTBmare]

Exactly, Tara.

[jester1113]

I'm so sorry bassy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

I'm late to this thread but was thinking about you, the horse and the driver all day yesterday.

[Erin]

If bassy thinks he/she said something he/she shouldn't have, he/she can do what everyone else in that situation does -- go back and edit or delete their posts.

It's not the moderators' job.

Amazing what passes for journalism these days over at NBC4... someone "claiming to be the owner posted on an internet forum"?!? Now I remember why I never watch local TV news... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[bassy]

I am not signing on again, I just want to say thank you to all. I agree deleting will not help. I am saddened by this whole situation. I am also saddened by the fact that this post to express my saddness and my remembrances could be used for evil, but I realize now that is the case.In looking back I realize I never directly posted how saddened I was for the loss to the Imwalle family.
I am saddened by the lost of the Imwalle family.
That is the last I will say.
Thank you again

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do think, however, that everyone is responding in a way which is appropriate to the situation in that we know Bassy is on this BB. Since there has been no indication that Ms. Imwalle, friends, or family have ever participated in the COTH BB, I would daresay assume that people would respond to them not in a public forum but privately, or in a forum which would be reached by their family. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely understand this and think you stated things very well, I guess I was just put off by the lack of concern about the other victims. If you look from the outside in, which apparently folks are doing (aka NBC4 news) it does seem sort of surreal that not many have mentioned the person who died. Thats all, not trying to make a difficult situation worse.
I thought about this all day yesterday, and while working with my horse who can be particularly hard to catch, I made sure to hold on a little tighter. The situation is just so tragic, and I cannot imagine what everybody is going through who is directly involved.

This actually happened a little while back at the Charles Town racetrack. A well known trainers wife was struck (while on foot) by a horse who had gotten loose and subsequently died from her injuries. I just cannot imagine going through this--it is my absolute worst nightmare.

[Arado]

My condolences for your loss .I hope you do see this as I think it would be nice to add a "pepper berry" bush to your shopping list the berries are just as pretty as the foliage and they are hardy and pretty year round.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I don't think it was anyone's intent to not mention the driver, it is just that this is a horse BB, so that's what we concentrated on - the loss of Bassy's horse.

[VirginiaBred]

((((Hugs))))
I am so, so sorry for everyone involved.

Prayers and condolences.

[2 tbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FairWeather:
I completely understand this and think you stated things very well, I guess I was just put off by the lack of concern about the other victims. If you look from the outside in, which apparently folks are doing (aka NBC4 news) it does seem sort of surreal that not many have mentioned the person who died. Thats all, not trying to make a difficult situation worse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FairWeather-most if not all of us have expressed our sympathies towards the whole situation-horse and human alike. Thing is...this is Bassy's place (used for evil by the news or not). I'm sure the family is grieving from the unfortunate accident but I doubt very much they are overly concerned for the owner of the horse as I'm sure they are angry (a stage we all go through with loss-and a very understandable feeling). As I'm sure the family members are wonderful people and would be greatly saddened for Bassy's loss, I think their thoughts are with themselves and rightly so...just as our thoughts are with Bassy (as extended horsie friends) and the family.

It is sad to say but I am willing to admit that I tend to have a softer heart for animals than people. I am not evil and I do not wish tragedy on humans but when there is a situation that involves both humans and animals I tend to feel a greater compassion for the animal first. Take Katrina for instance...most of the folks here on the CoTH BB jumped at the chance to help the horses and pets stranded by the hurricane. Although I'm sure CoTH BBers also did their part for the human rescue efforts-we mostly talk about the animal side of it...just how a BB about horses/animals would be expected to opperate.

I think it's fair to say out of catiousness due to media intrusion we are safer sticking to condolences for both parties involved but an individuals preference to mention only one or the other is what freedom and living in America is all about.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 2 tbs:
It is sad to say but I am willing to admit that I tend to have a softer heart for animals than people. I am not evil and I do not wish tragedy on humans but when there is a situation that involves both humans and animals I tend to feel a greater compassion for the animal first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm exactly the same! Coreene once said I had a cold barbed-wire heart for it...but I digress http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[JustJump]

This situation is tragic, most for the children and other family of the woman who lost her life simply because she was going to work. As for the horse, well, it was a horse. Bassy's treasured horse, yes, and it is very sad for her, and for Winn. But there have been some knee-jerk responses posted here that are not only a poor reflection of how we horse people fit into the rest of society, but how we perceive each other. Many would do well to look inside and question why this is so. Keeping in mind the view from the outside looking in.

[Cindeye]

OK, I'll put up a controversial proposal. Rather than going back and forth about whether or not anyone is at fault in this tragic accident, how about we use our energy for something good?

Perhaps we could start a memorial fund for Guiness that would benefit Ms. Imwalle's children by contributing to their future college tuition? I'll be the first to contribute. Does anyone have any expertise in setting up such a charitable trust fund that would be able to help me out on this one?

[LaBonnieBon]

GREAT IDEA! I have been trying to think of a way to help since the accident happened.

Please let me know details as I'm in as well!

[jester1113]

My firm might take this pro bono, we do a lot of pro bono work.

I just got off the phone w/ our Pro Bono coordinator, and she thinks our firm (we're 10th in the nation for prestige and one of the top pro bono firms) will take it!

But I need WAY more info. Email me! Esp if you know more details about the victim or who to contact in her family.

tpierce AT cov DOT com.

[jn1193]

I will contribute as well. What a GREAT idea, Cindeye. What a great way to honor Guiness and to say to the Imwalle children and the world that horsepeople DO care!

Re: the media. I showed this thread to my husband, a former journalist now in PR. He said, "yep. Never write anything on the Internet that you aren't willing to see in print or used against you."

[Cindeye]

I've emailed Jester with the info I have gleaned online. If anyone has any contact info for the family of Frances Ann Imwalle, of Lothian, Md, please email Jester or me (cindeye AT cindeye DOT com).

[SunshineGA]

If someone can come up with a legitimate place for funds to go to Ms. Imwalle's children I would be more than willing to contribute something.

What a terrible situation for her family and my heart goes out to them. My cousin/best friend grew up without her father because he was involved in a drunk driving accident one month to the day before she was born. As we are the same age, I saw firsthand what growing up without a parent due to a tragic accident is like.

Best wishes to the Imwalle family.

[BlackWatchLady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bluewatersail:
This makes me sick too. I hope the driver is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Didn't this just happen in NJ last week also? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the drivers fault,why would she, rest her soul, be proscuted? If its anyones fault, it would unfortunatly, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif be the fault of the one who left the stall door open.

[Lori B]

BlackWatchLady --

No stall door was left open, BWL. Please read ENTIRE thread before posting. Thank you.

[Coreene]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seahorsefarmtobe:
I'm exactly the same! Coreene once said I had a cold barbed-wire heart for it...but I digress http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gee, and since then I also donated $$ to the horse rescue you list on every one of your posts, so thanks for bringing this up again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Bassy, I am so sorry for everyone whose lives were touched by this tragedy. When I had to put Willem to sleep, his Irish Draught friend Rufus and Rufus' mom left a giant bottle of Guinness in the stall as a remembrance, and since then we salute Willem with Guinness bran mashes on cold days. I am sure that Guinness' friends would love them as well. After all, many, many Irish trainers can't be wrong.

And we did plant rosemary, right where we put Willem to sleep. It is one of the few plants that the squirrels and bunnies don't snack on.

[Kenike]

Cindeye, what a wonderful idea! Another COTH member who'll donate as soon as we have something set up.

As for contacting the family, maybe Jester1113 could have the pro bono coordinator contact the Maryland State Police, with said lawyer being the only contact (at least right now) for the fund?

[17hTBmare]

You guys are so great! I wonder, though, if the idea of setting up a fund for the driver's children's benefit is a bit premature? Perhaps it would be better to let a little time go by before anyone from COTH contacts the family, in order to let their initial shock and grief abate somewhat, if that's possible. Whenever this project gets off the ground, however, it is a wonderful thought.

[Coreene]

Cindeye, you know I love you and your heart is in the right place, but if this had happened to my mother, I would be Not Amused about a memorial fund named after the horse who got loose and (albeit unintentionally) caused the death of my mother. I would guess that there is some type of place where you could make donations to the family discreetly, and that's the way I would go. Besides, unless it's going to be a big whacking chunk of change, it would just rub salt into the wounds. JMHO.

[Ride'emCO]

I'm going to take what Coreene said one further, with all due respect, and I mean it in the nicest way - this is really none of our business. It's a sweet thought, but...If bassy needs support, we're here to give it to her, but beyond that, I think it's wise - and proper - to butt out. JMHO.

[Cindeye]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Coreene:
Cindeye, you know I love you and your heart is in the right place, but if this had happened to my mother, I would be Not Amused about a memorial fund named after the horse who got loose and (albeit unintentionally) caused the death of my mother. I would guess that there is some type of place where you could make donations to the family discreetly, and that's the way I would go. Besides, unless it's going to be a big whacking chunk of change, it would just rub salt into the wounds. JMHO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>In my usual naive way, I hadn't thought of that. After I viewed the news video of people saying how hard the driver worked to give her kids anything they needed, I was just trying to think of a way to help the kids. Food for thought on how to approach this tactfully.

Ride'emVa: I respect your viewpoint, but I was raised to think that helping others in need is always everyone's business. Knowing someone is hurting or in need and turning a blind eye to their plight is just something I'm not programmed to do.

[Ghazzu]

My guess would be that the friends of the poor woman who was killed would be very likely to be setting up some sort of fund even now.

Concerned horsefolk could donate to that. No need to give it a separate name/entity.

[blton9th]

Please know we are thinking of you, and all involved. Our hearts go out to you, may you read all of the posts here, and find a bit of comfort knowing how many people care. Sending lots of hugs your way.

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IMWALLE MEMORIAL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's a link to a Washington Post article about this trajic accident. There is a photo of Frances Ann Imwalle. It helps to put a face to a name. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2005091502359.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/15/AR2005091502359.html)


Here is some other data from google: http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0905/260407.html
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My husband worked with Fran Imwalle for almost 20 years. She was a kind, sweet, faithful employee of Stromberg Metal Works, Inc. in Beltsville, MD. Fran liked to start her day early, and was on her way to work when the unfortunate accident happened. She was the mother of two teenagers and did not have an alcohol problem. Fran Imwalle was the victim of an unfortunate accident,

[deleted by Cartier]

... Two young people are suddenly without the one person that stood behind them, had only their interests in mind, was a major contributor to their support and loved them dearly. I find it distrubing that anyone could consider putting the death of a horse on equal basis with a person. I have had two dogs that were very dear to me, but I would never trade any family member or friend for them to be alive again. While Fran Imwalle's children grieve over the loss of their dear mother, I hope all of you horse lovers WAKE UP to the difference between the loss of a human and the loss of an animal. Fran had many friends at Stromberg Metal Works, Inc. and they, too, are grieving over the loss of her. It is ironic that Fran, herself, was orphaned when both of her parents were killed in an auto accident when she was a teenager. [deleted by Cartier]
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[JustJump]

&lt;&lt;My guess would be that the friends of the poor woman who was killed would be very likely to be setting up some sort of fund even now.

Concerned horsefolk could donate to that. No need to give it a separate name/entity.&gt;&gt;

Have to agree w/Ghazzu and Coreeene on this one.

Must also remark that I have to agree w/the quote that there are a number of horse people whose words in reaction to this incident have been nothing short of appalling. My advice to those: Wake up, people! There is more to life on this planet than your little corner of it.

[Cartier]

About the material I quoted (at the bottom of the previous page [11]), … just want to clarify… I think people have a right to grieve in any way that is meaningful for them. I am not judging ANYONE on this thread for how they expressed their sadness over this tragedy. If some mentioned the horse, it may simply be because they knew a bit more about him. I don’t think it reflected callousness or insensitivity towards Frances. And I do not agree with all of the quoted comments in my previous post. Rather, I wanted to post a bit of personal data about Frances Ann Imwalle to help people connect to who she was: a loving mother of two; a working mom, beloved friend and co-worker…

[tarragon]

Bassy, as a gardener I just wanted to suggest Buddleia (http://www.botanyshop.com/bbushgallery/bbushgallery.htm), or Butterfly Bush. My trainer lost her wonderful old stallion this year, and I plan on planting a Buddleia on his grave so he'll have both beautiful flowers and dancing butterflies all summer.

Again, my deepest condolences for this tragic situation.

[JustJump]

&lt;&lt;I am not judging ANYONE on this thread for how they expressed their sadness over this tragedy.&gt;&gt;

Well, I think we can agree that bluewatersail's reaction was rather thoughtless...

And, yes, the press gets it wrong about 90% of the time...

[mmaurer]

I have a question...

Our AHSA insurance, does it cover us for liabilty for stuff like this? Is that enough insurance or do we need to take out other insurance. I am sure we all need to protect ourselves , horses etc. What SHOULD we all have as insurance coverage? Who should we have it with?

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is taken from the first link Cartier posted...and it's misinformation like this that makes me wonder how people can trust the news...either Pesses really doesn't know anything about horses (in which case it would be better not to say ANYTHING) OR she does, and was trying to explain to the press what a HALTER was and said it was LIKE a bridle but without a bit and reins.

I have been interviewed by the press and each and every time they get it WRONG. My dad was interviewed regularly b/c of his job when I was growing up, and I can remember so many things printed that were either wrong, absurd or both...but boy do people believe whatever the press says! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree about the press... it's amazing how often the same story is quoted... so that, if it was reported wrong to start with, it continues to be reported wrong.

There is an excellent book by Lance Bennett... News: The Politics of Illusion (often used in Poli Sci ~ Press & Politics classes), very worth the read)

[runspotrun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
"Pesses said that when the horse escaped from the groomer and owner and bolted out of the stall, he was not wearing a bridle, which is unusual. She also said it is not usual practice to keep a barn gate open."

This is taken from the first link Cartier posted...and it's misinformation like this that makes me wonder how people can trust the news...either Pesses really doesn't know anything about horses (in which case it would be better not to say ANYTHING) OR she does, and was trying to explain to the press what a HALTER was and said it was LIKE a bridle but without a bit and reins.

I have been interviewed by the press and each and every time they get it WRONG. My dad was interviewed regularly b/c of his job when I was growing up, and I can remember so many things printed that were either wrong, absurd or both...but boy do people believe whatever the press says! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had a similar thought earlier. I can image an interview taking place, and a horse-ignorant person asking something along the lines of, "Was the horse wearing a bridle?" and the trainer or whoever saying, no the horse was wearing a halter, and that being source of confusion, because the reporter thought that everything on a horse's head was a bridle.

I just want to extend my sympathies to everyone involved in this horrible accident. My prayers are with you.

[appaloosalady]

First, Let me express my deepest sympathies to everyone connected in any way to this horible accident.

Second, let it be a wake up call to everyone to check and recheck their insurance coverage. mmaurer had an excellent question, and all would do well to make sure they have adequate coverage just in case. I upgraded my coverage, it wasn't good enough to cover an event as tragic as this one.

[LaBonnieBon]

What I find interesting is that one press says the horse bolted, the Washington Post said the horse was "wandering"..... I just think we have to agree that it is a tragic accident and in time more truth of the actual events will come out. I know when I have been interviewed by the press, they have reported things I said incorrectly. Another favorite for them is to cut things out of context and make it in the context they wish to have.

I was just out by PGEC to get picket fencing I had ordered. I stopped to get gas (with my horse trailer to haul the fencing) and some guy came up to me asking if I had heard about "the horse"... I just looked at him and said "huh?"

Then he goes on to tell me all these "facts" that he had. I asked him if he saw the accident. Of course his answer was "no". Then I just smiled and went back to pumping my gas.

People never cease to amaze me.....

[Halfhalting]

I know this is tragic for everybody, and I'm sad for everybody involved... But I must say this is most tragic, by far, for the children and family of that woman who died. I'm sorry, but that will be a void much bigger than any of us can or should imagine. I'm sure the driver, a MOMMY, wanted nothing more than to love her children and now she won't be able to. This has made me cry to think about how quickly our life can be taken away from us.

[Darkwave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
I have been interviewed by the press and each and every time they get it WRONG. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Absolutely. And the problem is as bad at CNN as it is at the local daily. I think a lot of this is due to the nature of media today. There's a lot of pressure to turn around stories very quickly, and accuracy suffers.

Speaking of mistatements in the media coverage of this tragedy, did anyone note, in the Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/15/AR2005091502359.html), the reference to the horse show as "100-jumper." I'm guessing the reporter misheard "hunter-jumper"....

[Kenike]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and it's misinformation like this that makes me wonder how people can trust the news... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh my goodness, yes! I chuckled my "you're an idiot and I can't believe you think you know what you're talking about" laugh a few times while reading that article. My husband had to see what I was reading and just rolled his eyes (he figured out what I was doing awfully quick). I can only assume "100-jumper" meant H/J (I think someone else also said this?), and lay-people always seem to think a bridle and halter are the same, so they always get that wrong. Plus, we know the owner wasn't there. But all that is beside the point. The whole thing just made our sport look really bad.

Oh, and I hate it when they say the family could not be contacted for comment. Well, no poop, shirlock! They're too busy with more important things than speaking to the press! (Sorry, pet peeve)

[LaBonnieBon]

This is sort of off topic a little....

I have a customer who is an actress. She sent me info on the day/time one of her TV roles was going to air.... It was a reality TV show!!! They made the whole thing up... all the people were actors/actresses... had lines to memorize... and it was the one where they build houses for people in need. She was the wife/mother of the needy family...

Truly sad that they can pass this all off as "the truth". Guess we cannot believe anything anymore.....

[Sannois]

WOW Not to change the subject but are you saying Extreme Makeover home edition is a fake?? How incredibly sad! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Hucklebug]

I've refrained from posting on this thread but I had to add that as someone in a position to speak with people having the most information, and also being one of the numerous posters here who knows not what a "100 jumper" is, but knows horses don't wear their bridles in their stalls, I have to say the news accounts I've read have all been so poorly researched and factually inaccurate, I'm "aghasted" as we say around here....this will forever change my perspective when reading/watching "news".

[LaBonnieBon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
WOW Not to change the subject but are you saying Extreme Makeover home edition is a fake?? How incredibly sad! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't speak for all of episodes, but the one my client was in was definitely not real! Very sad... sorry to burst your bubble! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[2 tbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hucklebug:
I've refrained from posting on this thread but I had to add that as someone in a position to speak with people having the most information, and also being one of the numerous posters here who knows not what a "100 jumper" is, but knows horses don't wear their bridles in their stalls, I have to say the news accounts I've read have all been so poorly researched and factually inaccurate, I'm "aghasted" as we say around here....this will forever change my perspective when reading/watching "news". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And! isn't it funny how NBC4 could "quote" from an internet horse bb all the "I feel sorry for Bassy and the loss of her horse" stuff to make horse people seem inconsiderate of human life but they can't come here and quote the correct use of terms like hunter/jumper, halter, etc.

Nor can they spread word of the concern for the family and the good intentions of the horse community. I mean, sure, here we express our sympathy for Bassy first and foremost but it is a HORSE INTERNET SITE. Not a single one of us (me and cold barb-wire hearted Seahorsefarmtobe http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif included) have anything but sympathy and concern for the family - not like it would make any difference to the press because that's good news to spread and they just can't have that. They'd rather the horse community look like a bunch of self centered little brats who only care about our expensive horses.

As far as donations-I see both sides of it and feel it would be a good gesture to the family but the family might not be ready for it. They are angry right now-as indicated by the quote from Cartier (which is a typical reaction in the grieving process) and I'm just not sure they would see the good intentions by a donation-but if there is something that CoTH puts together count me in as well.

[SunshineGA]

You guys made a good point on holding off on the donation stuff. I wholeheartedly agree.

If any of you had read all the comments on that link you would understand why the woman said what she did in Cartier's quote. I was appalled when I read the mini-arguement over there.

You just cannot justify holding an animals death equal with a mother's death. I'm sure any child who has a horse as a companion and had to make the choice, I'm sure they would choose maiming/killing their horse and not their mother.

Even though I don't get along with my mother all that well I would still rather choose taking a horses life over my mother's. Sorry. I must be a cold-hearted horse owner.

Edited to add the "taking" part... thats what I meant!

[runspotrun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SunshineGA:
Even though I don't get along with my mother all that well I would still rather choose a horses life over my mother's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fruedian slip? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[HHG-N]

I am so happy someone finally explained what a "100-jumper" show was. What a bunch of morons.

[monstrpony]

I'm no great fan of the press, either, but I think you people are being awfully elitist about the reporting of this tragedy.

I can easily imaging someone mumbling "hunter/jumper" quickly, under stress, and having some non-horseperson reporter hear "hundred jumper".

I think a large majority of the audience for these articles hasn't a clue about the difference between a halter and a bridle--so what harm is really done by that mistake?

I challenge any of you to go into an environment about which you know next to nothing, and, under serious time pressure, attempt to get a completely detail-accurate story out of a bunch of tragically stunned people with alot of other things on their minds. It's not a fun job, it's not an easy job; if you take the time to get all of the details correct, you lose out for being too slow.

If all of us had taken the time to think about the consequences of our own meager little posts on this BB before hitting the send button, we wouldn't be at risk for seeming heartless in apparently putting our feelings for bassy and her horse above the loss of a human life.

Nobody's perfect.

[Hucklebug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by monstrpony:
I'm no great fan of the press, either, but I think you people are being awfully elitist about the reporting of this tragedy.

I can easily imaging someone mumbling "hunter/jumper" quickly, under stress, and having some non-horseperson reporter hear "hundred jumper".

I think a large majority of the audience for these articles hasn't a clue about the difference between a halter and a bridle--so what harm is really done by that mistake?

I challenge any of you to go into an environment about which you know next to nothing, and, under serious time pressure, attempt to get a completely detail-accurate story out of a bunch of tragically stunned people with alot of other things on their minds. It's not a fun job, it's not an easy job; if you take the time to get all of the details correct, you lose out for being too slow.

If all of us had taken the time to think about the consequences of our own meager little posts on this BB before hitting the send button, we wouldn't be at risk for seeming heartless in apparently putting our feelings for bassy and her horse above the loss of a human life.

Nobody's perfect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't expect the average news person to know about nuclear engineering, but if they're going to report on it they better damn well research it correctly. I couldn't use that excuse for turning in a poorly researched paper, or legal brieg to a client, and I expect the same from other professionals as well. People count on the news for facts...not guesses. And 100 jumper was only one of the many mistakes. Horses don't usually wear their "bridles" (halters) in their stalls either....the articles have all been rife with errors...not one, not two, but many. And, as far as I've read or heard, none of the articles actually talked about the details of the accident either...like the other vehicles, the way the horse was traveling etc...

[LaBonnieBon]

Hucklebug - your post is very true and very well said!!

The other thing I would like to know is how many braiders actually braid the horse without it being tied or held?? The press is making it seem like the horse is just standing there being braided, open stall door, no "bridle"... free to go when it wanted to... Ugh!!!

[Darkwave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hucklebug:
I couldn't use that excuse for turning in a poorly researched paper, or legal brieg to a client, and I expect the same from other professionals as well. People count on the news for facts...not guesses. And 100 jumper was only one of the many mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly my thoughts. I understand time pressures and such, but this article was published a full day after the incident. We're not talking "CNN reporting from the scene" here.

There was enough time to do a simple fact check -- if the reporter had too much time-pressure put on her by her superiors at the Washington Post, well, that speaks to an institutional problem at the Post -- a prioritizing of speed over accuracy. And that's of real concern to me.

And something like "hunter-jumper" is so obviously sloppy and so easily fixed -- if the interviewee used a term the reporter wasn't familiar with (and what reporter would be familiar with the term "100-jumper," since the term doesn't exist?), the reporter should have asked the interviewee to spell the term out.

[Hucklebug]

The other glaringly obvious comment, is that if they have time to actually read the message boards to quote from it, don't they have time when they're trying to figure out where the message is to see that one of the forums is called "hunter/jumper"? Ok, I'm done now. I feel horrible for everyong involved, including the Imwalle family. This isn't the "car accident board". It's a horse forum. I'm going back to my regularly scheduled horse posts.

[hoser1]

I want to preface this with saying, again, that I have deepest condolences for all parties involved here. Having lost a 34 year old brother, I can say that there is nothing quite like that grief for a family on so many different levels.

But I hadn't seen the Post article and I just had to comment. I'm a quasi-journalist - write for a horsey magazine and have done a little freelancing over the years. That article in the post is just a terribly sloppy piece of journalism. For a tragedy like this, they should have gotten someone to check over that writer's work - or assigned her to the home and garden section. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Honestly, I've written for free on many an occasion, and I would never let something like that go out with my name on it.

Often times I write articles on disciplines that I don't know a thing about, but if there is something I'm not sure I heard right I will ASK - I'll even ask them to spell & explain it. Or Googling something takes about 2.3 seconds.

I've made mistakes on occasion & am sure I will again, but I do my best to make sure I'm doing all I can in the time allowed to write an accurate piece. If there was a term that I felt shaky about from an interview, you better believe I wouldn't use it - let alone TWICE in QUOTES!

I'm sorry but I think the lack of care given to that article was just disrespectful. I have a mind to write a letter to the Post, but I'm sure they wouldn't publish it.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Coreene:
[Gee, and since then I also donated $$ to the horse rescue you list on every one of your posts, so thanks for bringing this up again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, Coreene, didn't you notice the winking http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifsmiley in my post? Actually, your comment stuck with me and made me think, so it's a good thing...I wasn't snarking at you!
And, BTW, the rescue horses thank you sincerely for your donation! Many other COTHers have been generous, as well, and it is much appreciated!

[Sox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I couldn't use that excuse for turning in a poorly researched paper, or legal brieg to a client, and I expect the same from other professionals as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I just have a question, what is a brieg?

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

Just curious, but, I wonder if the Imwalle's would even want a fund started by a horse board and it's relation to the horse involved...just playing devil's advocate...although I do think it is a lovely idea.

[Hucklebug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I couldn't use that excuse for turning in a poorly researched paper, or legal brieg to a client, and I expect the same from other professionals as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I just have a question, what is a brieg? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

brieg is a typo for brief. I'd had a long weekend showing and was very tired when typing. Sorry.

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cartier:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IMWALLE MEMORIAL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's a link to a Washington Post article about this trajic accident. There is a photo of Frances Ann Imwalle. It helps to put a face to a name. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2005091502359.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/15/AR2005091502359.html)


Here is some other data from google: http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0905/260407.html
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My husband worked with Fran Imwalle for almost 20 years. She was a kind, sweet, faithful employee of Stromberg Metal Works, Inc. in Beltsville, MD. Fran liked to start her day early, and was on her way to work when the unfortunate accident happened. She was the mother of two teenagers and did not have an alcohol problem. Fran Imwalle was the victim of an unfortunate accident,

[deleted by Cartier]

... Two young people are suddenly without the one person that stood behind them, had only their interests in mind, was a major contributor to their support and loved them dearly. I find it distrubing that anyone could consider putting the death of a horse on equal basis with a person. I have had two dogs that were very dear to me, but I would never trade any family member or friend for them to be alive again. While Fran Imwalle's children grieve over the loss of their dear mother, I hope all of you horse lovers WAKE UP to the difference between the loss of a human and the loss of an animal. Fran had many friends at Stromberg Metal Works, Inc. and they, too, are grieving over the loss of her. It is ironic that Fran, herself, was orphaned when both of her parents were killed in an auto accident when she was a teenager. [deleted by Cartier]
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

where did this come from?? Forgive me for being some what behind, but I've avoided this thread like the plague for the last few days...

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jodes:
where did this come from?? Forgive me for being some what behind, but I've avoided this thread like the plague for the last few days... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

By "this" I assume the assorted excerpts Cartier provided. They appear to be from the various postings allowed (and keep in mind not unlike the COTH unvalidated in true authenticity of the posters and connection to the story) in the associated "Viewer Comments" to the ABC7 segment "Woman Killed When Car Hits Horse On Route 4"; link was shared by Cartier.

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jodes:
where did this come from?? Forgive me for being some what behind, but I've avoided this thread like the plague for the last few days... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

By "this" I assume the assorted excerpts Cartier provided. They appear to be from the various postings allowed (and keep in mind not unlike the COTH unvalidated in true authenticity of the posters and connection to the story) in the associated "Viewer Comments" to the ABC7 segment "Woman Killed When Car Hits Horse On Route 4"; link was shared by Cartier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Glimmerglass..I just found where people were posted in reply to the article...WOW..sorry I found it.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[Kenike]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can easily imaging someone mumbling "hunter/jumper" quickly, under stress, and having some non-horseperson reporter hear "hundred jumper". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the press, in all forms, have a way to publish and publicize corrections. I have yet to see any done.

I think hucklebug and hoser1 touched on the rest just fine, so I won't go there again.

I stand by my earlier statement that the press is giving our sport an extremely bad name here, especially by skipping our own expressions of sympathy to the Imwalle family in this tragedy.

[hoser1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I stand by my earlier statement that the press is giving our sport an extremely bad name here, especially by skipping our own expressions of sympathy to the Imwalle family in this tragedy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kenike, absolutely agreeing with what you said on all points. But I would also like to add that I find that the author of that article did more than just give our sport a bad name. To me, that is also a disrespect of the woman who lost her life. I'd be pretty angry if the journalist reporting on my mother/daughter/sister couldn't be bothered to take the time to quickly check details and word use before publication. And like someone else said, if it is a time constraint issue, then the Post should be addressing that limitation with their editorial staff.

I think it's a lot more likely that the Post wasn't worrying about the grieving family or the portrayal of the horse industry. I think the lyrics of the song "Dirty Laundry" pretty much sum up the motivation of that publication in dealing with this tragedy.