FEI News Update on O'Connor's Horse's dope test [Archive]

greyhndz

Nov. 1, 2004, 01:17 PM

I'm also curious as to how a portion of a sample could disappear.

With urine drugs screens done on humans (e.g., pre-employment, after accidents or occupational injuries, or random screens), there is a very strict protocol which must be followed in order for the results of the tests to hold up in court. Every collection is witnessed, sealed in view of the donor, and proper "chain of custody" forms must be filled out and signed by every person handling, transporting and processing the sample -- similar method to that used by the police for handling evidence. The "A" and "B" samples both come from the same urine specimen -- it's simply split into the 2 containers, and both are sealed at the same time.

Is this how FEI/USAE drug screens are handled as well? If so, is the FEI really saying that the "B" specimen was declared invalid because it had been unsealed and thus considered corrupted?

jlf

Nov. 1, 2004, 01:39 PM

haha - certanly smells like a Dick Francis novel to me , too! I miss looking forward to his annual release http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ellie K

Nov. 1, 2004, 01:50 PM

The FEI protocol is similarly strict and only their approved labs can handle samples from FEI events so they should all know the drill.

The BBC and eurodressage.com reports are dramatically different though, one says the sample never arrived, another states there was a break-in. I just love it when journalists don't cite their sources. Guess we just have to stay tuned!!!

I agree with you greyndz, if the lab which was not going to analyze the B sample did something with it, that would seem to be an obvious breach of protocol, rendering both portions invalid, whether they ever find the one-armed man or not. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

eurodressage

Nov. 1, 2004, 02:28 PM

it's because none of the first hand "sources" (FEI, Irish Equestrian Federation, etc) are responding to this matter, that the news gets so "blurry" and non factional..

eurodressage

Nov. 1, 2004, 02:36 PM

non-factual (in fact http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

canyonoak

Nov. 1, 2004, 02:58 PM

hahahahahahahahahahahahahah

wait! I have a theory!someone from Beijing stole it, so they dont have to deal with pesky horseports in 2008! They did an 'arrangement' with the Hong Kong lab courier. my gosh!

it all fits!

canyonoak

Bea

Nov. 1, 2004, 04:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jlf:
haha - certanly smells like a Dick Francis novel to me , too! I miss looking forward to his annual release http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Christmas just isn't the same without a new Dick Francis. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif And I'd pay far more than five quid to be stuck in an elevator with one armed Sid Halley. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Beezer

Nov. 1, 2004, 05:25 PM

Damn leprechauns! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

T.G.I.F.

Nov. 1, 2004, 07:42 PM

Release First

Nov. 1, 2004, 07:52 PM

I saw a report that said a gnome had been seen sneaking around the lab. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Glimmerglass

Nov. 1, 2004, 07:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by T.G.I.F.:
WAIT a sec here!!!! Why no Dick Francis novel this year? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His last work was Shattered in 2000. That was finished just three weeks before his beloved wife, Mary died reportedly in his arms of a heart attack. There is a great deal of credible evidence that she in fact did much of the "heavy lifting" with his output. e.g., Dick dropped out of school at 15 while Mary was a former publishing editor.

Dick said in 2001 he was unlikely to write anything longer than personal letters ever again. Saying quote: â€œSo much of my work was her.â€

Weatherford

Nov. 1, 2004, 08:16 PM

Hmmm - I am sure there are more than a few writers on this board who'd be willing to take her place.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

eclipse

Nov. 2, 2004, 06:02 AM

Hard to believe the writer in the eurodressage report, actually knows what's going on. Interpol is NOT a the British Intelligence Agency, it the European Agency! Maybe just a typo on their part but....!

Unfortunatly, however you look at it, it doesn't make Waterford Crystal's owners/backers look very good! Even if they have nothing to do with the stolen sample it's how it's percieved! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Weatherford

Nov. 2, 2004, 06:08 AM

However, since the owners ARE big names in Ireland (the owner of the newspaper, Irish Independent and the owner of Waterford Crystal (the company) - I am afraid they WILl be blamed... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Not a good thing - and who is to say IF the B sample is ever found, that it IS the right/same sample... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ESG

Nov. 2, 2004, 06:44 AM

TheBigLady

Nov. 2, 2004, 06:44 AM

Ellie K

The theft of the B sample and the break in are two seperate incidents. The B sample was taken last week. It arrived in England from Paris and then was to be shipped to Hong Kong for the second test. When it was discovered missing. This morning it was discovered that there was a break in at the office of the Irish Equestrian Federation. It had not been released to the media yet if anything had been discovered stolen. This WHOLE thing is turning into a great big mess!

Ellie K

Nov. 2, 2004, 06:55 AM

OK BigLady, who are you and what are your sources???? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif And where's Deep Throat?

Also, canyonoak, you crack me up!!!!

TheBigLady

Nov. 2, 2004, 07:23 AM

Who's Deep Throat? My sources? Irish Equest. Fed. announced it here in Europe this morning.

Ellie K

Nov. 2, 2004, 07:25 AM

From RTÃ‰

Substances found in Waterford Crystal named

Inquiry continues into the missing sample of Waterford Crystal who won Olympic showjumping gold with Cian O'Connor (above) on board

Tuesday, November 02 2004 1:47
The names of the substances found in the 'A' samples of Cian O'Connor's horses, ABC Landliebe and Waterford Crystal, have been revealed.

Fluphenazine and Guanabenz were the substances detected in ABC Landiebe, while the prohibitive substances found in Waterford Crystal were Fluphenazine and Zuclopenthixol.

According to the Sport's Governing Body, the FEI, the tranquilising drugs are considered as clear attempts to manipulate the performance of the horse, often being administered to 'hot-headed' horses.

However, Cian O'Connor's solicitor, Andrew Coonan has stated that they don't accept the findings of the 'A' Sample in relation to Waterford Crystal.

Meanwhile RTÃ‰ sport understands that the blood part of Waterford Crystal's 'B' sample is to be tested in Hong Kong on Friday, despite the theft of part of the sample from Cambridgeshire last month.

It is understood that Coonan has been informed by the International Equestrian Federation (the FEI) that it is still proceeding with the case in relation to Waterford Crystal.

The news comes a day after it was revealed that the 'B' sample of Waterford Crystal was stolen in Cambridgeshire last month. And the controversy deepened today when it was revealed that the Equestrian Federation of Ireland's offices in Co Kildare were broken into overnight.

The president of the EFI, Mrs Avril Doyle, said cleaning staff arriving at the office at Kildare Paddocks, Kill, this morning discovered the break in. She said the front door had been forced open and one of the five internal offices had been broken into.

"It would appear that one of the filing cabinets had been gone through," she said.

She told RTÃ‰ this morning that it was unsure if anything had been taken and gardaÃ* had been notified.

Equibrit

Nov. 2, 2004, 08:00 AM

From Horse & Hound

New twist in Waterford Crystal doping saga

Carla Passino

November 2, 2004

A portion of the B-test sample taken from Irish show jumper Waterford Crystal has disappeared and may have been stolen

The International Equestrian Federation (FEI) announced yesterday that a portion of the doping test B-sample from Irish show jumper Waterford Crystal has been "illegally taken" in Cambridge on 21 October.

Cian O'Connor and Waterford Crystal won Ireland's only Olympic gold medal in the individual show jumping earlier this year. But Waterford Crystal tested positive for a banned sedative and O'Connor, who risks losing his medal over the matter, asked the FEI to run a counter test on a second sample â€” the so-called B sample â€” which had also been taken from the horse in Athens.

Connor was concerned that a drug may have remained in Waterford Crystal's system after being administered at a hydrotherapy session in July.

"I believe that I won this medal fair and square and that the horse has not been given anything that would make him jump better," he said at the time. "I plan to have the B sample tested as soon as possible and to proceed from there with the FEI."

The B sample was being shipped by courier from the Medication Control Programme Central Laboratory in Paris to the Horseracing Forensic Laboratory in Cambridgeshire when it was taken on 21 October.

The FEI has started an internal investigation, and police in Cambridge and Lausanne are also looking into the case. The Equestrian Federation of Ireland has immediately asked the FEI for further information and President Avril Doyle MEP requested a meeting in Lausanne.

"At this stage there are more questions than answers," Doyle says. "But I don't like what I'm hearing."

* * * LATEST NEWS * * *

The Waterford Crystal case took an even more sinister turn earlier this morning when the EFI offices at Kildare Paddocks, Kill, Co. Kildare were broken into.

The break-in may not be connected to the disappearance of Waterford Crystal's B-test sample, but the fact that the burglary took place immediately after yesterday's announcement by the FEI leaves room for speculation that the two events may be connected.

"Someone looking for documentation pertaining to this case could be the most obvious suspect, unless it's just a random burglary" says EFI spokesman Colin McClelland. "The only documentation that is in there is something that Cian O'Connor and his solicitors would have copy of."

O'Connor is not talking to the public at the moment, but, McClelland says, "I know Cian is incredibly anxious about [the B-sample being stolen] because he wants it all brought to its proper conclusion."

Police still have EFI offices cordoned off so very little information is available at the moment.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 2, 2004, 08:06 AM

Oh this now official has all the makings of a true conspiracy novel! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

With all due respect, the ham-fisted sloppiness has all the markings of the IRA. Put this on par with their multiple break-ins of Sir. Alfred Beit's manor (Russborough House, Wicklow) - the last being when they drove the truck through the front door to steel a Vermeer painting yet again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I digress.

What is interesting is that with millions of dollars/pounds/euros on the line with disqualifications - from the reputation of the Irish to value of horses, does anyone at the FEI think to oh .. maybe .. beef up security? I can recommend some people from Kroll that would even make the boys from Langley jealous!

JER

Nov. 2, 2004, 08:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>the prohibitive substances found in Waterford Crystal were Fluphenazine and Zuclopenthixol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. Perhaps Waterford Crystal is pyschotic and/or schizophrenic and actually needs these medications?

Bea

Nov. 2, 2004, 09:24 AM

I just realized I've been thinking about this backwards. Thinking the Irish were the ones with the motive. But whoever profits from having O'Connor's medal pulled has the real motive, right? Remind me which three are waiting to move up in the medals.

Jair

Nov. 2, 2004, 09:37 AM

The Americans http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You guys would get team gold!

But in the individual, Rodrigo Pessoa (Brazil) would get Gold and Chris Kappler silver.

Duende

Nov. 2, 2004, 09:55 AM

I don't know how these drugs act in horses but anti-psychotics are given to children with autism on a regular basis. It elevates the levels of seratonin in the brain and has a huge increase in their ability to focus and stay on task. If the same is true for horses then I would say that this would be a huge performance enhancement.

JustJump

Nov. 2, 2004, 09:58 AM

WHOOA. This is getting DEEP. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Ellie K

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:02 AM

By the rules, if the PR requests analysis of the B sample, and that analysis cannot be validly performed, then the case must be dropped, the A sample means nothing. Of course, even plenty of upstanding, highly respected folks don't know the rules, so it is hardly safe to conclude that thieves and scoundrels know them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And there is no provision in the rules for dealing with incidents of foul play and so the whole thing is so mucked up now, who is to say. Whatever the FEI decides will surely end up in CAS.

In the FEI's defense about security, it wasn't the FEI office that was broken into, and they would have no say in what security would be had at the Irish federation (and all that would be in that office would be the A test report which would have then been forwarded to the PR). As for labs, that too wouldn't be within their control unless they wanted to decree that samples had to be shipped by armored guard or something crazy like that. Since the samples are identified only by number, it SHOULD be anonymous. It is also (assuming the rules were followed) an anonymous decision that a case even exists based on the A sample. The medication sub-committee is not supposed to get the name of the horse, PR, event, etc. just the essential facts. Then once they decide there's a case, the horse and PR are identified to the NF concerned, and any disclosure from that point is up to the NF/PR in question, subject to the voraciousness of their media, of course!

It DOES seem a bit stupid in hindsight that it wouldn't be verified in advance that the lab the B samples were being shipped to was in fact able to accommodate them. Why would you ship that sort of stuff from country to country any more than necessary? Fed Ex loses stuff all the time!

Janet

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:15 AM

What does "PR" stand for?

And the report was clear that it was the "EFI" (not the "FEI") that had been broken into.

silver

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:25 AM

The plot indeed thickens http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Those are very odd drugs to find in a horse and not what I was expecting to hear. In fact, I predict we'll hear a little more about that soon enough. Again why would someone with a good chance of an Olympic medal drug their horse? They KNOW they're going to be tested adn they know how sensitive the tests are. Bettina Hoy, Cian O'Connor, Ludgar....

The whole thing is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif If I were writing this book this is how it would end: someone was supposed to switch the samples and they messed up and didn't replace the urine one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif That, a fight over a girl and a car chase. whaddya think?

Janet

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheBigLady:
Who's Deep Throat? My sources? Irish Equest. Fed. announced it here in Europe this morning. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Deep Throat was the "unidentified source" in the Watergate scandals.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by silver:
If I were writing this book this is how it would end: someone was supposed to switch the samples and they messed up and didn't replace the urine one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or "they" replace the urine sample with one taken from a mare. Uh, Mr. O'Connor, ol' chap we have good news - your gelding is clean and pregnant! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ruby G. Weber

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:34 AM

PR in FEI lingo is "Person Responsible." PR almost always equates to the rider.

Janet

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:35 AM

Thanks Ruby. That is what I was guessing.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Deep Throat was the "unidentified source" in the Watergate scandals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... and believed to be ABC "Good Morning America" host Diane Sawyer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ruby G. Weber

Nov. 2, 2004, 10:49 AM

C'mon Glimmer!!!! Diane Sawyer? I always heard it was Walter Cronkite.

And the Irish Mafia broke into their NF. Remember that movie? Showjumping, laundering money, murder....

Seriously though, it would be a shame, for all involved, for this to end due to a technicality.

Other

Nov. 2, 2004, 11:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>the prohibitive substances found in Waterford Crystal were Fluphenazine and Zuclopenthixol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. Perhaps Waterford Crystal is pyschotic and/or schizophrenic and actually needs these medications? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, this is certainly surprising and disappointing news to receive. A bit of a different ballgame than a topical steroid or antibiotic or such.

While humans are prescribed Zuclopenthixol/Fluphen for schizophrenia/bouts of psychosis, I've not heard of horses being diagnosed as schizophrenic. It is my impression that this is by nature a human diagnose, but hey, I've been wrong before.

It is shocking to me that anyone competing at FEI sanctioned events would use such a well-known long-term neuroleptic (fluphen! aka Prolixin http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) if there was ANY chance of competing in the Olympics.

I am familiar with this drug, as it was given to one of my horses with a long-term injury who wasn't able to get turnout. The USAE guidelines say that you should not give Fluphen for at LEAST 45 days prior to showing, and as we know, USAE guidelines are much looser than FEI no-substance rules. In my eyes, if the samples both come back positive, there is absolutely NO excuse for this. Fluphen is LONG-TERM. Even us idiot amateurs know that. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Ellie K

Nov. 2, 2004, 11:10 AM

BigLady, I hope I didn't cause offense, I was just joking given all the intrigue of the situation and since lots of people jump on first-time posters and presume they are trolls/alters, etc.

We didn't have any new news over here this morning (have to go looking for European news) so I didn't realize that what you were posting had in fact already been reported on, and with the latest break-in story it made me think of Watergate!

So suffice it to say it was just meant in jest since you seemed to have major inside news that no one over here had heard yet.

Nov. 2, 2004, 12:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I just realized I've been thinking about this backwards. Thinking the Irish were the ones with the motive. But whoever profits from having O'Connor's medal pulled has the real motive, right? Remind me which three are waiting to move up in the medals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as the medal standings changing, wouldn't we (the US) want the sample found? If the sample disappears, doesn't that rule out the possibility of a second positive sample, and thus the possibility of the medal getting taken away?

Also- aren't these anti-psychotic drugs the ones that hunter people have been suspended for?

Bea

Nov. 2, 2004, 12:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BB:As far as the medal standings changing, wouldn't we (the US) want the sample found? If the sample disappears, doesn't that rule out the possibility of a second positive sample, and thus the possibility of the medal getting taken away? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. Sorry BB, I posted about the medals changing before Ellie K made her good post saying the medals wouldn't change if sample B wasn't found. So much for my sleuthing abilities. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I need to stick just with reading Dick Francis. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Janet

Nov. 2, 2004, 12:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Also- aren't these anti-psychotic drugs the ones that hunter people have been suspended for? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes.

Ellie K

Nov. 2, 2004, 01:14 PM

I was thinking along the same lines as you Bea, until I went and poked around in the rule book.

The gist of it now, as I understand it, seems to be that the urine was stolen but the blood is at the Hong Kong lab, correct? So Bea, that would answer our question about what the FEI was talking about when they said a 'portion' of the sample was taken. I imagine they always analyze both substances, so they can still compare blood sample B to blood sample A. Maybe our thief isn't so bright.

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 2, 2004, 01:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
Oh this now official has all the makings of a true conspiracy novel! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

With all due respect, the ham-fisted sloppiness has all the markings of the IRA. Put this on par with their multiple break-ins of Sir. Alfred Beit's manor (Russborough House, Wicklow) - the last being when they drove the truck through the front door to steel a Vermeer painting yet again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I digress. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Don't digress anymore ... you ARE kidding, right.

JustJump

Nov. 2, 2004, 01:38 PM

<<due to a technicality.>>

It seems that what's developing is a bit more complicated than a mere "technicality..."

I think we are starting to need a graphic in order to properly extrapolate what who stands to gain from whatever has gone missing or might be found, or in the case of the EFI offices, is being looked for...anyone care to produce a slide show, complete w/cast of characters, bulleted lists of meds and effects, and a coherent timeline?

As a spectator sport, this post competition drama is starting to be pretty riviting.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 2, 2004, 01:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Don't digress anymore ... you ARE kidding, right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't make this up: BBC 27 June, 2001 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1410117.stm) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tegotong

Nov. 2, 2004, 01:53 PM

ok, so now we know it's prolixin, which has been used as a tranq for horses for quite a while now. Prolixin's tranquilizing effect lasts for 4 weeks, and it is testable for up to 45 days. Something that you think both Cian and his vet would know. The therapeutic usage of Prolixin in horses is to keep a horse calm during long lay-ups, so that it doesn't injure itself further. One of the major risks with this drug though is that a very few horses have a very bad reaction to prolixing - instead fo being quieter they go completely psycho. And the psychoness lasts the full 4 weeks. So why oh why would anyone use this drug for routine veterinary procedures. My own vet never does, and he doesn't even work with many show horses.
What is really amazing to me is that this is the drug that so many pro's got nabbed for in the US last spring. It's thought that somebody whispered in USEF's ear that it was being abused and they then started to test for it without telling anyone they were going to do that. Hence the rash of suspensions last spring. Is is possible that Cian and his vet are completely ignorant of this?
So I have to say, it looks pretty much like a clear case of cheating to me. Especialy since Cian got caught earlier this year with the same drug in a different horse.

Ellie K

Nov. 2, 2004, 02:15 PM

JustJump, I think what Ruby meant by 'technicality' was just that if the B sample never turned up or was rendered invalid by the fact that it had been mishandled, that the positive A sample would technically no longer 'count' without the B to confirm it as the accused had requested. So the rules err on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to the accused, and I think a lot of people would consider that akin to getting the case 'dismissed on a technicality.' It seems odd in one way, since if you DON'T request the confirmatory analysis of the B sample, they can still sanction you based on the A sample. But if you DO request the B sample analysis, they can't get you unless they are in fact able to analyze the B sample and it is confirmatory. This is what it seems to say in the rules, anyway.

CBoylen

Nov. 2, 2004, 02:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ellie K:
I was thinking along the same lines as you Bea, until I went and poked around in the rule book.
The gist of it now, as I understand it, seems to be that the urine was stolen but the blood is at the Hong Kong lab, correct? So Bea, that would answer our question about what the FEI was talking about when they said a 'portion' of the sample was taken. I imagine they always analyze both substances, so they can still compare blood sample B to blood sample A. Maybe our thief isn't so bright. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or maybe he just knows more than the rest of us. From what I understand, sometimes some things that show up in urine do not do so in blood if they are used in low doses or out of a specific time frame. Maybe the only evidence WAS in the urine, and there was no need to steal the blood as well.

Ellie K

Nov. 3, 2004, 07:07 AM

RTE (http://www.rte.ie/sport/2004/1103/cian.html)

The latest on Waterford-gate! You'd think they would elect NOT to disclose the selected lab this time, lest there be another opportunity for a problem. Glimmerglass, your point about security is taken!

And NOW it is disclosed by RTE that the disclosure of the substances found was from an 'anonymous' source. This is really irresponsible, I think.

On the subject of media corrections to previously released info, BigLady, I also just wanted to clarify that the break-in and conflicting accounts I had been referring to in my earlier posts was based on a report by one European media source that the Cambridge lab had been broken into, whereas other reports said the sample was apparently taken in transit. The report about a break-in at the lab itself has subsequently been edited out by that source, so we're back to just the one break-in at the Irish Fed! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I know people do go back and read threads long afterwards, and since we're all speculating based on what has been reported (and I have now seen twice that what was reported was amended by media sources after the fact), I have tried to amend/delete speculation that I have contributed, and opinions I formed, when I later saw it was or might be incorrect.

I just don't want to contribute to spreading misinformation about what is a very serious matter for those involved.

In Cian's defense concerning his statements that people are out to get him (which I am sure people will love to jump on)...

Whether or not that is true, it does not change the reality that the horse tested positive independently of any drama within Ireland's show jumping world. BUT, to be fair, people should be reminded that Ireland had no small amount of its own intrigue prior to Athens, and it was reported by a number of sources that Cian was the only team rider supporting the one side in the Tommy Wade/Eddie Macken drama. And when Waterford Crystal's positive was first announced, I saw mainstream Irish media (who admitted they knew little about equestrian sport) badgering him about whether he was sedating the horse for the purpose of rapping (poling). Who knows where they got the information to make this connection about a sport they didn't know anything about, but it struck me as a little odd.

So I think it is only fair to consider his statements in that context, that there is definitely some internal intrigue over there which could be related to the situation at the Irish fed. Again, this does not change the fact that his horse still tested positive regardless of that situation.

Coreene

Nov. 3, 2004, 03:35 PM

From The Times in London (Nov. 3):

Plot thickens in mystery of the missing B sample
By John Goodbody

POLICE were yesterday investigating a mysterious break-in at the Equestrian Federation of Ireland (EFI) after the theft of the urine sample from the Irish horse that won the Olympic showjumping title in Athens.

Avril Doyle, the EFI president, said that the ransacking of the offices in Co Kildare might be â€œan ordinary break-in, but I am afraid that the coincidence is rather too much. The documents stolen during the break-in were relevant to the ongoing investigation (into the case of Waterford Crystal). A whole bunch of important files were stolenâ€.

Waterford Crystal was the horse on which Cian Oâ€™Connor won Irelandâ€™s only medal of the Athens Games and their only equestrian title in Olympic history. The horseâ€™s A sample had shown an adverse finding for a sedative and, if confirmed by the B sample, Oâ€™Connor would lose the gold medal.

The FÃ©dÃ©ration Equestre Internationale (FEI) announced on Monday that the B sample had been stolen while in transit from Paris to the Horseracing Forensic Laboratory (HFL) near Newmarket, where Oâ€™Connor, who has insisted on his innocence, had requested the specimen to be analysed. The EFI yesterday asked for an urgent meeting with the world governing body to sort out a unique incident in the history of Olympic doping.

David Hall, the chief executive of the HFL, said yesterday: â€œWe were never in receipt of this package. In fact, I was unaware that it was due to arrive until the theft was drawn to our attention.â€

The laboratory, which annually handles 15,000 equine and 9,000 greyhound samples, is to analyse 2,000 human urine specimens over the next 12 months, having been accredited as the second British laboratory recognised by the World Anti-Doping Agency. The other is at Kingâ€™s College London.

Cambridgeshire Police confirmed yesterday that someone had signed for the sample during its transportation before it arrived at the offices in Newmarket, where 120 people work. Almost all the samples arrive at the laboratory by couriers, who use a car or motorbike, and there is a well-tried system of receipt at the offices.

It is understood that although the HFL had been notified by the FEI that the B sample of Waterford Crystal was going to arrive at Newmarket for analysis, it was only when a person claiming to represent the Irish rider phoned to ask when this was going to take place, that officials realised the specimen had never arrived. Any competitor in an Olympic sport who has undergone an adverse finding for an A sample is entitled to have a representative, often an independent expert, present when the B sample is examined.

Andrew Coonan, Oâ€™Connorâ€™s lawyer, said yesterday that neither he nor the 24-year-old showjumper had known anything about the disappearance of the sample until Monday. James Sheeran, the vet to Oâ€™Connor, has said that he had given Waterford Crystal a sedative on July 22, when the horse was suffering from a fetlock injury. This practice is allowed under the FEI rules. However, the drug should have been out of the horseâ€™s system well before the Olympics in August.

ABC Landliebe, another of Oâ€™Connorâ€™s horses, was found positive for a sedative after his Nations Cup victory on May 31.

Jair

Nov. 3, 2004, 03:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
Cambridgeshire Police confirmed yesterday that someone had signed for the sample during its transportation before it arrived at the offices in Newmarket. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did that happen? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Couriers aren't supposed to give up a pkg until they reach the address on the waybill. Or at least that is what I always assumed.

So what was the courier doing? Waving the sample in the air on a street corner and asking for someone to sign? "Urine Sample! Olympic Equine Urine Sample up for grabs! Just sign here..." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

findeight

Nov. 3, 2004, 03:53 PM

OK, didn't read any but the first page.

Dick Francis, I think not.
This cries for Jaques Closseau..."ver is da bim, da bim is about to go off"...

No doubt the Pink Panther absconded with the sample...and this Irishman is up the creek and O-U-T.

Coreene

Nov. 3, 2004, 03:58 PM

I's like a Marx Bros movie on acid. The new brothers are Hide-o and Steal-o.

findeight

Nov. 3, 2004, 04:02 PM

Good God these people are not even good at making the sample disappear.
Where's Banacek when you need him?

Weatherford

Nov. 3, 2004, 04:24 PM

Oh, and now OUR OWN (meaning USEF's own) Lab gets the honor of processing the test!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

canyonoak

Nov. 3, 2004, 06:01 PM

So first, an anonymous source lets it be known that O'Connor is drugging his horses because he is driving them crazy by poling them, in order to make the horses jump better.

Then, an anonymous source faxes the info that O'Connor's horse has not 1, not 2, not 3, but FOUR banned substances in its system.

Oops, excuse me--metabolites of said banned substances.

Not merely banned, but KNOWN and definitely the kind of substances that the FEI announces it is testing for, these days.

The portion of sample B that is still under lock and key is re-routed from Hong Kong --a disinterested laboratory-- to the United States, to the USEF lab.

USEF, one might say, is not totally disinterested in the resulting labwork.

Now, it is definitely true that the USA, of all equine-sports-involved countries, is the only country that has seen fit to create this kind of forensic lab and USE it continually for ,among other purposes, figuring out the amount of time it takes banned susbstances to clear out of the equine system...a possible clue as to how the US has gone from a country that was continually being tested and found with 'positives' to the 'clean' results of this past Olympics.

OK.

I can definitely,absolutely, see how all this is going to embellish the image of equestrian sport.

khobstetter

Nov. 4, 2004, 02:07 AM

I just returned from Germany where I was for a week...this is, OBVIOUSLY, all the hot topic.

But the sad/interesting twist is that now people are quick on the draw to say we DON'T need horse sports in the Olympic venue since they cause this kind of stir.

It costs an amazing amount of money to build entirely new horse venues at each Olympic game and they are saying that this type of a black eye on the Olympics themselves is just NOT worth the $$ it takes to put them on.

The EuroSports channel had a long report on it late in the night Monday and there was alot of speculation that since we "can't enforce our own rules, who can??"

This kind of shi*^% has a very long reach into our sport...!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Ghazzu

Nov. 4, 2004, 04:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by canyonoak:
The portion of sample B that is still under lock and key is re-routed from Hong Kong --a disinterested laboratory-- to the United States, to the USEF lab.

USEF, one might say, is not totally disinterested in the resulting labwork.

Now, it is definitely true that the USA, of all equine-sports-involved countries, is the only country that has seen fit to create this kind of forensic lab and USE it continually for ,among other purposes, figuring out the amount of time it takes banned susbstances to clear out of the equine system...a possible clue as to how the US has gone from a country that was continually being tested and found with 'positives' to the 'clean' results of this past Olympics.

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please. The idea that the lab personnel are even remotely interested in who wins is a stretch.
Just because the lab is run by USEF doesn't mean they hire horsefolk to do the testing.

And an appropriate lab for testing for equine doping is obviously going to be found in a place where there is interest in equestrian sport.

Ruby G. Weber

Nov. 4, 2004, 04:46 AM

If the remainder of the "B" sample has gone to Cornell, (that's the assumption one would make when one reads N.Y.) that's just further testimony as to the sensitivity of the USEF's testing facility.

Testing is the one part of equestrian we have been consistantly ahead of the Europeans.

All of the susbtances mentioned are detectable in our labs.

I also don't buy the "rapping" story.

Ellie K

Nov. 4, 2004, 07:11 AM

I don't agree with sending the sample to a lab in a country that stands to gain in the medals and announcing it to the world, not because of the lab itself, but because one sample has already gone missing, so how about erring on the side of caution! The fewer people that know what is going where and when, and the fewer people with a direct interest in the case that could possibly gain access to it, the better, from a legal standpoint.

I believe the Person Responsible is allowed to choose (or agree to) the confirmatory lab from the list of FEI-approved labs, if the initial sample was analyzed by the FEI's official lab in Europe (which this one was). If a different FEI-approved lab,such as the USEF lab, did the A sample analysis, then the B sample must be analyzed by the FEI's main lab. So if that is correct, and the UK lab was selected (or consented to) by the rider, but that lab couldn't do it (note to FEI Lab: call them first to make sure they have time!!!), so the rider then selected/agreed to the Hong Kong lab to do it instead, but meanwhile the sample was 'disappeared' in the UK, then the decision to NOT approve the Hong Kong lab to do the analysis is legally a wise one, I think. But I don't think it has anything to do with the experience or quality of the Hong Kong lab, I've never been there but don't they have quite a strong racing tradition? All the FEI labs undergo the same quality control measures and wouldn't the analytical methods be kept consistent for all FEI events? It would seem logical to me that to be approved as an FEI lab, they would have to be using the same methods and protocols.

In any case, canyonoak where did you read about 4 substances? The 'anonymous' source referenced by the normally respectable RTE had said fluphen in both horses, with guanabenz found in Landliebe, and zuclopenthixol in Waterford Crystal. BUT, we have no idea who this anonymous source was or where they got this information or what their motive is for giving this information to the media. (Edited to add that it now appears that documents from the stolen case file were the source of what was faxed).

The rules specify the anonymous nature of the testing of the A sample. But they do not mention, that I can see, that this same policy applies to the B sample. I know it's hindsight, but wouldn't it be sort of crazy to ship that around with anything other than an obscure number on it?

1-800-Dial-A-Distance

Nov. 4, 2004, 07:21 AM

Okay kids,
It is quite clear what has happened here. The FEI and the BBC are simply trying to fill in the gap that has been left by Dick Francis. No need to get all worked up, they don't have all of the experience needed yet to create a seamless story as Francis had the ability to do....Give them some time, I'm sure the next monumental foul up with ninety-seven bizarrely related and equally fouled up links will be a much smoother read... Who can blame them? The FEI is fairly new to all of this and the BBC has been so tied up in politics they've forgotten how to tell a good, if badly planned, mystery...

Bea

Nov. 4, 2004, 07:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 1-800-Dial-A-Distance: Okay kids,
It is quite clear what has happened here. The FEI and the BBC are simply trying to fill in the gap that has been left by Dick Francis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

buryinghill1

Nov. 4, 2004, 08:08 AM

???<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jlf:
haha - certanly smells like a Dick Francis novel to me , too! I miss looking forward to his annual release http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Allegedly Mary Francis (his wife) wrote all the books. Upon her death, publications stopped.

Watergate 1974, now Ciangate 2004...

Ellie K

Nov. 4, 2004, 11:24 AM

From The Irish Times 04/11/04

Police investigate sample delivery to laboratory
Person who took sample said they were laboratory employee
Lynne O'Donnell and Grania Willis

The package containing the B sample of urine from Olympic gold medal-winning horse, Waterford Crystal, was collected in the driveway of a Cambridgeshire forensic laboratory by a person who identified themselves as being a laboratory employee, The Irish Times has learned.

The person who signed for the delivery of the package containing the sample in the driveway of the Horseracing Forensic Laboratory (HFL) in Fordham on October 21st appeared to have HFL identification.

A source close to the police investigation in Britain, said: "The courier firm that delivered the parcel had been called by someone instructing them to hand over the package to someone in the driveway."

Entry to the laboratory is protected by a security barrier. Anyone approaching the laboratory must stop at the security barrier and announce themselves to an intercom, before the barrier is lifted, according to a source at the laboratory.

The distance between the road and the security barrier is about 50 metres, "so a van or vehicle could drive in and stop, or be intercepted, on the driveway before reaching the security barrier", the source said.

The freight delivery firm DHL confirmed yesterday it was contracted to ship Waterford Crystal's B urine sample from Paris to Cambridgeshire.

A spokesman, Mr Matthew Zamoyski, said: "Yes, we were carrying the package. We are obviously aware that it is missing and we are working with the police. They have a wider investigation ongoing and this is one aspect of it. We believe there has been foul play by a third party."

The HFL takes delivery of around 15,000 horse samples a year.

The laboratory source said anyone who wanted to intercept a specific delivery would have to know the consignment number of that delivery. "We are as sure as we can be that no-one from HFL signed for the delivery; the package never crossed our security barrier."

The source said the driveway and the security barrier could be clearly seen from inside the HFL building. No official HFL passes had been reported missing, the source added.

Following the theft of the urine sample, a blood sample from Waterford Crystal due to be sent to Hong Kong for confirmatory analysis has now been re-routed to the USA Equestrian Drug Testing and Research Laboratory in New York.

Cian O'Connor has arranged for his witnessing analyst to be present at the testing, which is due to begin next Monday.

Ellie K

Nov. 4, 2004, 11:52 AM

From The Irish Independent

Case file on O'Connor horse stolen hours before allegation
Cian O' Connor: 'What are peoples motives?'

A CASE file on Cian O'Connor's horse, ABC Landliebe, was stolen from the offices of the Equestrian Federation of Ireland (EFI) just hours before detailed doping allegations about the same horse were faxed to RTE.

The revelation by the EFI of the particular file's disappearance was the first official link between the burglary on Tuesday and the drugs controversy. It followed O'Connor's claim that an attempt was being made to destroy his name, reputation and business.

Meanwhile his lawyer, Andrew Coonan, said he was considering legal action after the B sample from his Olympic mount, Waterford Crystal was moved yet again, this time from Hong Kong to the USA Equestrian Drug Testing and Research Laboratory in New York.

The final test on the remaining portion of the sample will begin on Monday, after which the Gold Medal winner, who continues to protest his innocence, will learn his fate.

Waterford Crystal's file was not stolen from the EFI offices in Kill, Kildare, the sport's governing body confirmed. That is now in the custody of the gardai.

The file discovered stolen on Tuesday morning related to ABC Landliebe, the horse which tested positive at a competition in Rome. An anonymous source sent a fax that same day to RTE News, claiming that fluphenazine and guanabenz - both sedatives used to treat severe anxiety in humans - were the substances detected in the ABC Landliebe sample.

The source also alleged that fluphenazine and zuclopenthixol, another drug used to treat anxiety and schizophrenia in humans, were found in Waterford Crystal's A sample.

Cian O'Connor yesterday was reported to say: "It would seem strange that people are persistently seeking this information, and the day after a robbery at the EFI this arose on air.

"This would beg the question, who is out to get who, and what are people's motives?"

He said he had no will or motive either to destroy the B sample or to take anything from the EFI, having all the documentation himself and wishing the B sample testing to prove his innocence.

"This looks like some individuals would go to any lengths, exhaust every possibility to see me destroyed in a business capacity, as well as my name and reputation," he said.

And he added that his explanation for the positive test on Landliebe had been accepted by the international equestrian federation.

Solicitor Andrew Coonan said yesterday: "I'm at a loss to try and figure out who this (the burglary) benefits."

He said he and his client Cian O'Connor were also contemplating legal action to cover the "considerable expense" of sending their analyst around the world.

Mr Coonan said they had been given no warning or explanation for switching the test site for sample B from Hong Kong to New York.

Mr Coonan said he had only been able to divert his independent analyst, set to observe the Hong Kong test, by a last minute telephone call to the airport yesterday morning.

"There was no reason given and it is despite the fact that on three occasions they have given us written confirmation it was going to Hong Kong," he added.

Helen Bruce

Weatherford

Nov. 4, 2004, 03:09 PM

No reason to tell anyone they had change their minds til the last minute?? Well, duh, perhaps to prevent another theft??

OK, who is writing the novel version?? It would be totally unbelievable!

Of course, the IRA's kidnapping (and the subsequent disappearance, presumably death) of Shergar was pretty unbelievable and stupid, too... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Coreene

Nov. 4, 2004, 03:14 PM

Bejayzus! The blarney!

newt*trak

Nov. 4, 2004, 03:17 PM

Hmmmm! I think the butler stole it and hid it behind the candlestick in the library http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Ellie K

Nov. 4, 2004, 04:21 PM

I'm most amazed by the DHL people...

"The courier firm that delivered the parcel had been called by someone instructing them to hand over the package to someone in the driveway."

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Red flag!! You'd think if you delivered stuff to forensic labs on a regular basis and go through a security gate, that this phone call MIGHT have aroused some suspicion!!! Jeez!

And my personal favorite: "We believe there has been foul play by a third party." Thanks for the news flash, Sherlock!

Irish Momma

Nov. 4, 2004, 04:41 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif OMG - if this gets any crazier, it'll be a movie
Wanna play at being the casting director??...
Ill start... Cian played by Colin Farrel.....

JustJump

Nov. 4, 2004, 06:02 PM

<<"The courier firm that delivered the parcel had been called by someone instructing them to hand over the package to someone in the driveway."

Red flag!! You'd think if you delivered stuff to forensic labs on a regular basis and go through a security gate, that this phone call MIGHT have aroused some suspicion!!! Jeez!>>

Please tell me this outfit doesn't ship anything more sensitive than lab samples from sporting events...honestly in THIS day and age would you give anyone ANYTHING just because they ask for it?

buryinghill1

Nov. 4, 2004, 06:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Irish Momma:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif OMG - if this gets any crazier, it'll be a movie
Wanna play at being the casting director??...
Ill start... Cian played by Colin Farrel..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Bono would be the DHL driver and Liam Neeson would be some FEI official http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Sinead O'Connor would be an evil lab tech
Weatherford would be Liam Neeson's love interest

Risk-Averse Rider

Nov. 4, 2004, 07:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by buryinghill1:
???<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jlf:
haha - certanly smells like a Dick Francis novel to me , too! I miss looking forward to his annual release http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Allegedly Mary Francis (his wife) wrote all the books. Upon her death, publications stopped.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
His wife helped in the extensive research that went into each of his books, but I've never heard anyone claim that she wrote them. Perhaps he stopped writing after she died because he was old, tired, and didn't want to go on without her.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 4, 2004, 07:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Risk-Averse Rider:
His wife helped in the extensive research that went into each of his books, but I've never heard anyone claim that she wrote them. Perhaps he stopped writing after she died because he was old, tired, and didn't want to go on without her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See my prior post a couple pages ago on this. It has been theorized in many credible places that indeed Mary was highly instrumental in Dick's books - far more of a role what an editor would perform. Indeed he has said that he will not write another book since her passing.

As for the carrier being DHL in this whole mess well all I can't say I've ever been impressed with them. There is however an interesting (if not bizarre) history behind that company, in particular the late Larry Hillblom who was the H in DHL. I digress http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Luckily for us in the US, the carrier Fed/Ex is closely tied to the USET and USEF (YZ Partners anyone!) and they are very strict in hand-off procedures.

Again with so much money, pride and reputation on the line I'm amazed how this was all handled. If people think this was a mere routine sample to be shipped from A to B, and not in need of some special courier service then they need their heads checked!

As cited before they really should've employed Kroll (http://www.krollworldwide.com/)

canyonoak

Nov. 4, 2004, 09:19 PM

EllieK asked for the source of the part about 4 banned substances...

From another email list, from someone in Ireland:

<<A big story here in Ireland at the moment is the "drugging" of
Ireland's gold medal winning Olympic showjumping horse Waterford
Crystal.

I don't expect it made the news worldwide but the latest is that the
horse tested positive in the A urine sample for Zuclopenthixol
(clopixol), Fluphenazine, Guanabenz and Reserpine!!!>>

I personally believe that all of the above is from 'anonymous' sources..and therefore highly suspect. I only remarked on it because it seemed to be now accepted that the horse has all this in his system.

I do not find this situation funny.
Here is a young rider, the gold medal winner of this last Olympics, and not only is his mdeal in question, his entire public life is in question.

Now, if one wants to take the high road and say, he is getting his just desserts because he has been drugging his horse, well, then at least I can understand believing he should be punished.

I understand, just do not agree..

I find it rather UN-credible that he allowed his horses to be drugged for performance enhancement.

Of course, I found it UN-credible that Ulla used testosterone for performance enhancement; that Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum felt it a good idea to tranquilize SHutterfly in order to be able to complete a Grand Prix round; that Ludger Beerbaum felt it was necessary to give the stallion, Goldfever, betamethasone for performance enhancement; etc etc.

I find it easy to believe that all the above and others used various substances for various reasons-=-I just do not happen to believe any of it was for performance enhancement.

I do not think it is a good sign that big sponsors are pulling out of equestrian sport in general.

Sorry to be the wet blanket.

JustJump

Nov. 5, 2004, 02:57 AM

<<Luckily for us in the US, the carrier Fed/Ex is closely tied to the USET and USEF (YZ Partners anyone!)>>

Really! I ought to get out more. Other than admire the FL barn in passing I must admit to not having one bit of curiousity about the fortune behind the facade. (But, who is Y and who is Z?) Capitalism, where would we be without it?

Weatherford

Nov. 5, 2004, 05:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by buryinghill1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Irish Momma:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif OMG - if this gets any crazier, it'll be a movie
Wanna play at being the casting director??...
Ill start... Cian played by Colin Farrel..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Bono would be the DHL driver and Liam Neeson would be some FEI official http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Sinead O'Connor would be an evil lab tech
Weatherford would be Liam Neeson's love interest <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<SIGH> Don't I wish <sigh>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Weatherford

Nov. 5, 2004, 06:02 AM

Canyonoak - I think we are stuck listening to the anonymous sources in Cian's case because he has refused to release the substances found - saying that the FEI didn't allow him to do so.

Unfortunately, this isn't true - he (and the Irish Fed) CAN release the names of substances found, as was done in the German cases. In his case, however, since those drugs are not made for use in horses, it would tend to support his guilt rather than innocence (as it actually has). Also, unfortunately, he had already had one warning - that is, been caught! - with Landlieb in Rome. But, of course that wasn't admitted by him until it was leaked...

Poor public relations all the way around - and it is bad for the sport, bad for Ireland, etc...

I find it hard to believe the FEI accepted Cian's explanation of the drugs found in Landlieb after Rome - since, once again, these are not the usual drugs found to deal with something like a colic. Perhaps they WERE giving him the benefit of the doubt because he is young and uncoming. However, he used that up.

What makes me really sorry is the fact that he and his horse really did a wonderful job in Athens (and in other competitions throughout Europe all year), and were well deserving of that Gold. But, we will never know how much those sedatives enhanced his performance by taking the edge off a very fit and talented horse.

Makes me sad...

Ellie K

Nov. 5, 2004, 06:36 AM

canyonoak, I fully agree...perhaps I am too eager to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I would prefer to do so until there remains no other option.

I did think it was credible that information on the Landliebe case had not been released because the show was the end of May I think, and by the time the B sample results would have been obtained, it sounds about right by the FEI's typical timeline. The FEI won't release anything, except to the NF and rider, until the case has been concluded when they announce the sanction. So if he was waiting on the B sample, I think that's really some bad luck on his part, that the timing meant that he didn't have the final results of the first case in time to either educate his vet or get a new one! His was, after all, one this first 'batch' of cases that prompted the FEI to issue the warning last summer.

Did he really say the FEI wouldn't allow him to release the substances? I am sure it was his lawyers telling both him and his vet to say nothing further. They would have been better off not speaking at all when the positive was first released. I have thought Cian to be very credible, if guilty of getting some very bad veterinary and PR advice, but Weatherford being in Ireland obviously hears a lot more than we do.

I was VERY glad to read below that the samples ARE shipped anonymously, because earlier reports made it sound like the courier service and anybody who wanted to know actually knew which sample it was, etc. and I found that a little cause for concern! But if it is true (as one would hope) that the labs, etc. don't know the identity of the sample, then that narrows the list of suspects considerably, depending on how and where that ID number is cross-referenced with the judicial case file. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Irish Times 05/11/04
O'Connor would keep gold if blood results negative
Grania Willis, Equestrian Correspondent, and Lynne O'Donnell

Testing on the blood sample from Olympic horse Waterford Crystal will get under way in a New York laboratory on Monday.

However, The Irish Times has learnt that if the results are negative, the case against Irish Olympic gold medallist Cian O'Connor will almost certainly be dropped, in spite of the positive result from the A urine sample.

Following the theft of the B urine sample en route to a laboratory in Newmarket, in England, the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) has arranged for the remaining blood sample to undergo confirmatory analysis at the USA Equestrian Drug Testing and Research Laboratory in New York.

However, it is believed that the prohibited substances found in Waterford Crystal's urine were not traceable in the blood when the A samples were tested in Paris.

If this is confirmed when the B blood sample is tested, the case will be dropped - official sources have indicated - and Cian O'Connor will retain Ireland's only gold medal from the Athens Olympics.

In a separate development, it has emerged that the driver assigned to deliver Waterford Crystal's B urine sample to the Horseracing Forensic Laboratory (HFL) in Cambridgeshire was told twice to change the method of delivery.

"The driver had a call from our customer services department telling him to change the delivery from the specified address to a representative of HFL," an executive of the freight delivery company DHL told The Irish Times.

"He refused to carry out that change because he said he needed more authority," said Mr Matthew Zamoyski, DHL's communications director in Britain.

"Half an hour later, he was recontacted by customer services saying that those instructions were to be followed and that authority had been given to deliver the package to a person in the driveway. So he delivered it as instructed to someone who claimed to be a representative of HFL, who showed him what appeared to be HFL identification."

Sources at the laboratories in Cambridgeshire and Paris said that the sample was sent alone.

The sources at the two laboratories said samples are anonymous when they arrive and when they leave, and that internal identification procedures ensured that no one at either lab would know the identity of any sample.

Waterford Crystal's sample would have been issued with a barcode sticker that would be registered by the FEI as belonging specifically to Waterford Crystal, a HFL source said.

"At no time can any laboratory that deals with a sample identify where the sample comes from," she said.

buryinghill1

Nov. 5, 2004, 07:10 AM

I know, I know, none of this is funny, but in the trucking industry DHL is known as
"Drivers Horribly Lost"
They've had that title for years http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

1-800-Dial-A-Distance

Nov. 5, 2004, 07:45 AM

Handed it off in the driveway?! Does any else think that this is starting to get the feel of being set up by Wiley Coyote??

This is about one step beyond "Hey! Look over there!" and yet it still hasn't been solved... I am saddened....

1-800

Coreene

Nov. 5, 2004, 08:54 AM

From today's FEI Press News:

FEDERATION EQUESTRE INTERNATIONALE
FEI PRESS NEWS
5 NOVEMBER 2004

The FEI was informed on 26 October 2004, that a portion of the B-sample of the horse Waterford Crystal ridden by Cian O'Connor IRL in the 2004 Olympic Games was illegally taken while being delivered to one of the four FEI Reference Laboratories, the Horseracing Forensic Laboratory (HFL), Cambridgeshire GBR, on 21 October 2004.

The FEI Central Laboratory, Laboratoire des Courses Hippiques (HCL), Paris FRA, had only sent the B-urine sample for confirmatory analysis to the HFL. For most medication control cases for horses, only urine is analysed; when necessary and depending on the circumstances of the case the blood sample is
analysed.

The FEI Reference Laboratory, USA Equestrian Drug Testing and Research Laboratory, New York USA, will proceed with the analysis of the B-blood sample in due course in accordance with FEI Veterinary Regulations.

Police investigations are underway in Great Britain, Ireland and Switzerland and an internal FEI Secretariat investigation has also
begun.

sagebrush

Nov. 5, 2004, 09:09 AM

I was amazed to see Reserpine!! I haven't heard of this in so long, but it is, (ohh I'm sorry was http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) coomon practice for trainers to administer this injectible to QH's. Gives a relaxed calm effect for a month or more. There have been plenty of QH champions that earned their awards while carrying this in their system though no one will admit it! Hence the somewhat dopey look at a lot of QH shows

Ellie K

Nov. 5, 2004, 09:28 AM

As far as I have seen, the presence of Reserpine was only attributed to an unnamed 'someone' in Ireland which canyonoak noted was anonymous and consequently suspect. I have not seen that reported by any media source thus far.

I saw a video clip and with regard to the Landliebe case, what was reported by RTE (fluphen and guanabenz), appears to be more than credible. It appears to have been the official FEI document, which we can logically conclude was taken from the Irish Fed, that was faxed there, which gave them that information. It was shown on screen and unless there is a further CBS-style document forgery conspiracy afoot, that was an official FEI document. That was again, on the Landliebe case, NOT on Waterford Crystal. RTE reported that the same source informed them at the same time, that the substances in Waterford Crystal were fluphen and Zuclopenthixol, however they did NOT show an FEI document stating that as they did for Landliebe. But they also did not report on four substances being found in Waterford Crystal, only those two.

buryinghill1

Nov. 5, 2004, 10:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
I have 5 quid down that it will be the one-armed man http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glimmie, I have 10 Euro down that it's D.B. Cooper http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But... I LOVE the question previously posted... which team would benefit MOST if Cian loses his medal?

Anybody know whatever happened to Bernard Barker, Virgilio Gonzales, James McCord,
Eugenio Martinez, or Frank Sturgis? Their famous theft helped to bring down a president http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Weatherford --- start writing that novel! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Irish Momma

Nov. 5, 2004, 11:40 AM

DHL- Our mail room says that really it stands for Delivers Hopelessly Late..

Wouldnt it be amazing if it showed up late and the Perps had swiped the "wrong" sample.

And on the Weatherford: Leeson arrangement- she throws him over for Pierce Brosnan 007, who arrives to investigate the theft of the sample, cos it wasnt just ordinary "horse pee" as they would have us believe but is actually genetically modified machine oil- perhaps the rumours are true- Waterford isnt a horse at all hes a ......... OK somebody stop me!!
Sorry - I really shouldnt drink at birthday party lunches.. Me Bad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAD

Nov. 5, 2004, 12:09 PM

I do not know enough to comment on the Drug Test.

Didn't DHL and Airborne merge recently? Airborne was awful, IMO, at least in New York. Lost and undelivered packages many times. Two negatives obviously do not make a positive in this case.

Other

Nov. 5, 2004, 12:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sagebrush:
I was amazed to see Reserpine!! I haven't heard of this in so long, but it is, (ohh I'm sorry was http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) coomon practice for trainers to administer this injectible to QH's. Gives a relaxed calm effect for a month or more. There have been plenty of QH champions that earned their awards while carrying this in their system though no one will admit it! Hence the somewhat dopey look at a lot of QH shows <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, remember the GIANT drugging scandal just this past year?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bea

Nov. 5, 2004, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by buryinghill1:
But... I LOVE the question previously posted... which team would benefit MOST if Cian loses his medal? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm beginning to wonder what other discipline, or sport, would benefit if this one gets dropped from the Olympics due to silliness. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The vaulters want in. Us reiners are desperate. But to be honest I don't think we have the brains. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Poker players on the other hand might have just the right brains to pull off a caper like this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

buryinghill1

Nov. 5, 2004, 02:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:Poker players on the other hand might have just the right brains to pull off a caper like this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Weatherford, you taking all this down? Damn you folks are creative thinkers...

Maybe Scotland Yard should look into the goings-on of pro poker players (or their spouses).

Who needs Dick (or Mary) Francis when we have COTH

silver

Nov. 5, 2004, 03:15 PM

I still think that it's utterly bizarre that anyone would dope an Olympic horse in this day and age. You KNOW you're going to be tested!!

I'm waiting for the "Irish water supply horribly tainted by under-regulated drug companies" defense myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Weatherford

Nov. 5, 2004, 03:50 PM

By the way, I've had PLENTY of experience with DHL and the other ON carriers in Ireland, and they are... well... unique in their attitude towards delivery!! Let's say, the drivers are on Irish time...

I was supposed to get a guarenteed Overnight from my publishers in MA - OK, they shipped on Friday, so it was guarenteed for Monday delivery... On Tuesday, it hadn't been delivered - so I called and they said they couldn't FIND me (they had all my addresses and phone numbers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) I said, that was supposed to get to me YESTERDAY - are you going to deliver it TONIGHT - they said, no, we can't, it's too late. You will get it on THURSDAY... HUH?? THEN, on Thursday, they CALLED ME and SAID their driver FORGOT TO DELIVER IT, would I MIND if he delivered it on FRIDAY... To which I said, yes, I would mind VERY VERY MUCH!!! I got the package that night...

SOOOOO - it doesn't surprise me much - though, I would think the UK would be better than Ireland...

Working on the novel version http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Weatherford

Nov. 7, 2004, 06:02 PM

The latest update from Ireland:

Cian O'Connor Update (http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/4384821?view=Eircomnet)

Bea

Nov. 7, 2004, 06:39 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Okay, so now the B sample blood is going to be tested in NY. But it turns out the A sample blood was never tested. So when O'Connor requested the B sample be tested, complete testing of A had never been done. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Where's Ellie K? I can never keep up with this without her researched wrap-ups. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I want to know where A sample blood is. I bet someone threw it in the trash.

Ellie K

Nov. 7, 2004, 08:16 PM

Bea, you're funny...now I can blame you for being an enabler as I continue my unhealthy obsession.

They should still have the A sample blood in Paris, I don't think they pitch it until it's all said and done. One report this weekend said they have to compare blood to blood for it to be legitimate, but I don't know that this would be true(?). They also said the Paris lab specialises in detecting other things like betamethasone and that they might not be able to find it in the blood, even if the US lab does. I guess it will come down to who has the better lawyers. I really had no idea there was such variance between labs, this has been an education.

I am still recovering from the cover story in the Sunday Independent. Coming from a paper owned by the owner of the horse in question, it was just a little tabloid-esque for me. They hinted at some elaborate scheme to bring Cian down, the orchestration of which would require a level of competence I don't think even exists in international equestrian sport.

Now, a plot to break into the Irish Federation, and expose the details of the Landliebe case, yes...the motives there are pretty clear.

canyonoak, I think the rumour about the alleged presence of 4 substances must have been misinterpreted by people mixing the reports on these specific cases with the FEI's related communications on the general subject, which the media were also mentioning in many of the same reports. It was the FEI's various warning notices that have mentioned reserpine among the four or five substances they have suddenly been finding this year. So I think that's where that came from,but I don't think it's correct.

Bea

Nov. 8, 2004, 08:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ellie K: now I can blame you for being an enabler as I continue my unhealthy obsession. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Happy to be of assistance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Here's a question. How does the FEI rules state the sequence of testing works? I find it strange it wouldn't be; test A urine, test A blood, test B urine, test B blood. Even given the possible differences in what can be picked up in urine vs blood.

Can you post a link to the Independent's story?

Glimmerglass

Nov. 8, 2004, 08:26 AM

sidepoint - I didn't know that O'Connor was one of the Irish riders who spoke out against Eddie Macken's appointment as Olympic Team Manager.

(UK) The Guardian 11/8/04 "O'Connor stands tall as horse whisperers turn up volume" (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,10488,1346009,00.html?gusrc=rss)

excerpt:

It has involved two daring thefts that suggest that Irish showjumping may be a territory for rival criminal groups. It has revealed the petty jealousies and hatreds that are crippling Irish showjumping. And it has exposed mounting resentment at official testing for banned sedatives, now so stringent that one leading Irish showjumper told the Guardian that it is putting the health of horses at risk.

Back across the Irish Sea, in Ely, the sole police constable responsible for investigating the theft of a small pot of horse's urine took the weekend off.

[snip]

"Some people are jealous. There is only so large a pot of money in Ireland to go around. Everyone else apart from me has to go abroad to make their money. People say I have it easy because Tony O'Reilly's my godfather and he bought me Waterford Crystal at the start of my career. But it's a hard life. I'm up at six and go to bed at 11. I work hard for my money. I buy horses. I train horses. I train young riders. I am working for about 10 hours here today.

[snip]

There are three possibilities: O'Connor's version, that the sedatives were prescribed by his vet for a medical condition, but that improved testing has now exposed how long such drugs linger in the system; the conspiracy theory favoured by Ireland's Olympic equestrian chef d'Ã©quipe , Tommy Wade, that the horse could have been nobbled; or the belief, shared by anti-drug zealots and O'Connor's enemies, that he is simply sport's latest drugs cheat.

[snip]

[Connor Swail's remarks] "In Irish equestrianism, just like in England, there is still a strong feeling of the old days. There are top riders in England who don't speak to each other, and haven't done for years. We have the same frictions.

"There are a lot of people who would be glad to see it go wrong for Cian. Sometimes he would do his own thing too much. If he saw a good horse he would want it badly. You can make enemies that way. He has a single-mindedness to be the best."

Also if anyone wants to see a timeline of all the activities try here: How the mystery has unfolded (Guardian) (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,10488,1346010,00.html)

Ellie K

Nov. 8, 2004, 09:21 AM

Not sure Bea, I think they have the liberty of testing whichever they want. If they find a positive in the urine, I guess they don't need to test the blood and it would just add to the cost. Maybe they use the urine because analyzing blood is more expensive, I don't know. Or maybe most stuff they encounter shows up more in urine. Maybe if a horse was targeted for testing because they suspected a particular drug, they would first go with whichever fluid might yield the best result.

I think the Guardian is definitely wrong about the timeline they posted. The first record of notification about the first case reported anywhere that I have seen was July 30 (two months after the event in question, which sounds about right). With that notice, all the FEI would be doing is notifying the rider of a positive A test, and asking him how he wants to proceed. It's just the beginning of the process. He then has 10 days to either request the B sample or not. If he chooses not to have the B sample tested or doesn't respond, he gets a notice that the case will proceed based on the A result. That would have been the stolen document that was faxed to RTE (dated Aug 11). At this point it is still totally confidential within the FEI and NF and no sanction or amendment to results would have occurred. It's a charge and nothing more, because the rider hasn't had a chance to respond. Then the rider has the opportunity to file a written explanation for the presence of the substance or request a hearing before the judicial committee. That goes before the committee to be considered and the sanction, if any, decided upon. That can take months, and in this case, reportedly that decision came back at the same time as Waterford Crystal's positive. I read somewhere else it was end of Sept, so I'm not sure on that. They might have decided end of Sept, but because all this stuff is sent DHL, maybe it didn't get to Ireland until a week later!!

Here's the website, but you have to sign in and stuff. Couldn't get the link to work right!

www.unison.ie (http://www.unison.ie)

It's a bit ridiculous, Tommy Wade's argument is that the horse could have been doped at any show, and someone else goes on to say there were rumours that the horse had tested a week after the Games. Something to the effect of "we're completely 100% convinced that there were rumours." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Another fantastic conspiracy theory has the FEI so paranoid about the Newmarket lab's ability to confirm the A result, that they disappeared their own sample 'cause they knew they would have legal grounds to send the blood to the US lab, regardless of whether or not the rider agreed, because the rider and his team would be suspect in the theft. I really don't think the ability to conceive this sort of thing, much less pull it off, presently exists at the upper levels of the FEI.

And an even more farfetched idea is that these test results are all some grand IOC plot to get horse sports out of the Olympics. That might be worth considering except for the small detail that the IOC and its offshoot WADA have nothing whatsoever to do with equine drug testing at the Olympics or anywhere else!

Weatherford

Nov. 8, 2004, 10:49 AM

And the plot thickens.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

silver

Nov. 8, 2004, 11:43 AM

There was an absolutely bizarre story in the Irish Independant on Saturday that appeared to imply that he had been framed by shadowy "enemies" and that the FEI security was so incompetent anything might have happened. They wouldn't name any of his enemies but impled it had something to do with a deal gone bad, stepping on people's toes etc.

At least I think that's what they were saying, it was like the whole thing was in code... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I wish I could link to it.

Cian actually kept his mouth shut about the chef thing till it was all over, then said his piece. Nothing too outrageous by American standards, but high drama in Ireland.

Ellie K

Nov. 8, 2004, 12:11 PM

Yeah, the Independent was really over the line, I can't imagine that was very well received. It was so orchestrated with the posed glamour shot and all (Olympic medal noticeably absent). Bea if you go to their website there's a drop down menu on the right where it lists the different papers and you can select Sunday Independent. You have to register to read any of their stuff but it's free.

I had gotten the impression that it wasn't so much that Cian was anti-Eddie Macken, just that he was loyal to Tommy Wade who gave him his start, but of course I don't know all the history. But I can see all of that, however ugly or not it might have been, kicking back into high gear due to the anticipation that the B sample was gone and he was going to get off. I could see that being a pretty strong motive for some unnamed alleged enemies to want to make sure his reputation would never recover, whether or not he lost the medal. As for "...Irish showjumping may be a territory for rival criminal groups" gawd, that's a little extreme, isn't it?

Glimmerglass

Nov. 8, 2004, 12:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ellie K:
As for "...Irish showjumping may be a territory for rival criminal groups" gawd, that's a little extreme, isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ellie, perhaps the former and well feared Chicago Horse Mafia created a foreign office in Dublin : http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bea

Nov. 8, 2004, 12:35 PM

I've had a lovely time getting caught up on the London Independent because I was too stupid to follow Ellie K's link earlier. Now I'm waiting for my reg on the Irish Independent to come via e-mail. Which seems to be taking a long time. I hope it's not because I said my name was Bea and I was a retired farmer in Co Kildare with a large income who likes to keep abreast of the Arts. And has a US e-mail address.

Can someone paste the article here?

Anyway, I'm still stuck on the lack of testing of the A blood sample. I mean what's the point in drawing blood if you never plan to use it?

Other

Nov. 8, 2004, 12:46 PM

Ok, so if they are testing today...how long before we finally know??

Ellie K

Nov. 8, 2004, 01:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
I hope it's not because I said my name was Bea and I was a retired farmer in Co Kildare with a large income who likes to keep abreast of the Arts. And has a US e-mail address.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif So, what's going on in London, Bea? It was suggested the investigation was headed to Britain, at least after the constable gets back from his holiday. Jeez. And Bo Helander is on holiday this week as well, then next week is the FEI Bureau meeting, so I'm sure they will keep us on the edge of our seats for awhile. But the testing is supposed to be done this week. We'll have to depend on those suspiciously reliable leaks to Charlie Bird at RTE.

I didn't post the article here just because it was so ridiculous and contrived. But OK, I'll go see if I can find it. Just consider the source: the paper is owned by the owner of the horse. 'Nuff said.

But the Irish Times seemed to have a little incident of tabloid journalism themselves this morning. Perhaps there are rival gangs in the publishing industry there as well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ellie K

Nov. 9, 2004, 07:10 AM

The Irish Times, Tue, Nov 09, 04
O'Connor B sample result may be known this week
Grania Willis, Equestrian Correspondent

A source close to the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) confirmed last night that results from Waterford Crystal's B blood sample will be released "almost immediately", possibly by the end of the week.

"We'll release the results as soon as we've got them", the source said. "I imagine as soon as the results are known we'll have to publish it because it'll be leaked within 10 minutes."

Confirmatory analysis of the gold medal-winning horse's sample is being carried out at the USA Equestrian Drug Testing and Research Laboratory in New York. Testing is expected to take up to three days.

Mr Chris Nattrass, the laboratory director, commenced testing the blood sample yesterday in the presence of Cian O'Connor's witnessing analyst, Dr Laurent Bigler. Once testing has been completed, details of the lab's findings will be faxed to the FEI offices in Lausanne.

Confirmation of the findings will then be faxed to the Irish Federation and to Cian O'Connor's legal representative, solicitor Mr Andrew Coonan. An FEI statement on the results is also expected.

Meanwhile, gardaÃ* are continuing to investigate the break-in at the Irish Federation (EFI) offices in Kill, Co Kildare, last Monday night. The National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, brought in to assist Naas detectives, has interviewed the manufacturers of the office door to ascertain whether it had been forced .

Glimmerglass

Nov. 9, 2004, 07:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ellie K:
Confirmatory analysis of the gold medal-winning horse's sample is being carried out at the USA Equestrian Drug Testing and Research Laboratory in New York. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would it kill anyone in the press to properly list this as Ithaca, NY? The facility is for the record: US Equestrian Drug Testing and Research Laboratory 22 Thornwood Drive, Ithaca, New York 14850. Unless they decided since this is of paramount global interest with security concerns and moved it to the last of the nearby Seneca Army Depot Activity facility http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If the SADA was good enough to protect ICBM Missiles then it would be safe here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, brought in to assist Naas detectives, has interviewed the manufacturers of the office door to ascertain whether it had been forced . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Contacting the door manufacturer? Such lengths of superficial "thoroughness" are amazing! This is a Pink Panther saga that I'm sure will cost the Irish a fair amount in the wallet as well.

findeight

Nov. 9, 2004, 08:27 AM

Back to the DHL screw up...perhaps they picked that godawful yellow paint job to help others find their shipments???? They are the result of a merger with Airborne and are moving from Cincinnati Intl-CVG to Wilmington Ohio where they employ half the town...certainly can pick their planes out of a crowd too....jeesh. AWFUL.

BTW Y/Z translates in the phoenetic radio jargon as Yankee Zulu...perhaps it's a navigational point as Mr. Paulson picked for Cigar? Or part of the tail number of their first plane(s) before they merged with Flying Tigers????
Just a sidebar.

Ellie K

Nov. 9, 2004, 08:29 AM

Well one paper said the testing was being carried out under the watch of armed guards, so maybe they would prefer to disclose less rather than more (although I'm sure any such discretion was entirely unintentional!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I loved that about the door consultation too. Any moment I expect an announcement that they expect 'foul play' in the forcing open of the door.

I have been listening to some more early interviews and I have to say at this point that regardless of the alleged unnamed enemies, I think Cian's own worst enemy is himself (and his vet.) He said way too much early on.

And the break in and expose of the Landliebe file may well have less to do with people out to get Cian himself per se, and more to do with the whole PERCEIVED cover up leading up to the Olympics. In principle, I think he and the EFI are entirely right, and I would bet the USEF would have done the same thing because they know they would get their asses sued off and lose. But in dancing around the issue of the whole judicial timeline on that case the EFI and Cian have mucked it up so badly that now it looks like favorable treatment was given and it was covered up to keep him on the team, only to have him win the gold unexpectedly but then have the horse test and disgrace the whole country as could only happen to Ireland. Who knew. So they're guilty of not having ESP.

But the EFI said some things they shouldn't have said, and Cian may be claiming ignorance of the judicial process in that first case, but there are way too many people who have been through it that know better.

I think they did what was right and legally prudent, especially considering that definite entries had already passed (as contrasted with the Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum case). By the rules, they couldn't sub a rider/horse unless there was verifiable illness or injury. So if they pre-empted the FEI and suspended him or took him off the team, they would have had to send a three person team. Why even go? For a charge that could get thrown out or may otherwise not result in even a sanction? When he hadn't even had a chance to have his case heard?

And it all would have been fine and no one would have had a problem with it had Waterford not come back positive.

If anyone is really interested in this, go to RTE.ie and listen to some of the early interviews. You have to click on the various articles to all the ones they have linked.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 9, 2004, 08:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by findeight:
BTW Y/Z translates in the phoenetic radio jargon as Yankee Zulu...perhaps it's a navigational point as Mr. Paulson picked for Cigar? Or part of the tail number of their first plane(s) before they merged with Flying Tigers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good try, findeight, and correct with the jargon. As for your theory, well yes of sorts. The "YZ" is for Weise, a la pronounced "wise" like "yz". The former CEO of Federal Express Corp is Ted Weise and he is owner of YZ Partners http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif However, the first horse purchased and imported by YZ Partners was Yankee Zulu (http://www.le-chevalier.com/Gallery_of_Horses/Gallery_of_Horses_Site_3/Yankee_Zulu_s1/body_yankee_zulu_s1.html) so it comes full circle.

Mom

Nov. 9, 2004, 10:04 AM

"B" sample tested positive today. Check out google for Cian O'Connor

DMK

Nov. 9, 2004, 10:28 AM

Here's the article from the BBC

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> O'Connor B sample tests positive

Cian O'Connor's lawyer has revealed that a blood sample from the Irish showjumper's Olympic gold medal-winning horse has tested positive.
Andrew Coonan said "minuscule amounts" of Fluphenazine and Zuclophentixol had been found in the waterford Crystal's B sample tested in New York on Monday.

Mr Coonan said the drugs had been administered by O'Connor's vet.

The finding increases the likelihood that O'Connor will be stripped of the gold medal.

Mr Coonan added that O'Connor's vet had used the human form of these drugs so the horse could be treated in a therapy pool.

The latest test took place at the top US Equestrian Laboratory in New York.

The original urine sample tested positive, but the 'B' sample was stolen in bizarre circumstances last month.

The test on the 'A' urine sample showed traces of banned substances.

Both urine and blood doping tests were conducted in Athens after O'Connor won the individual show jumping gold in August. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, its an incredibly small amount, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist or extremely well versed in the protocols of the drug rules/testing to know that prolixen 4 weeks out from the Olympics is Not Legal. What you are is either Not Bright or Trying To Get Away With Something (and not bright as well).

Glimmerglass

Nov. 9, 2004, 10:53 AM

Take your pick from whatever news source here: they all scream the heading of positive test (http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=cian&ei=UTF-8&datesort=1)

Nothing on his website, yet, but he is expected to issue a statement this evening

Coreene

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:04 AM

Here it is in Horse and Hound:

O'Connor's B sample tests positive

Carla Passino
November 9, 2004

Lawyers for the Irish show jumper have just announced that a blood sample taken from the Olympic medal winning horse has tested positive, fuelling speculation that his medal will be stripped from him

9 November, 04

Cian O'Connor's lawyer has confirmed tonight that amounts of Fluphenazine and Zuclophentixol had been found in Waterford Crystal's B sample tested in New York on Monday.

The finding increases the likelihood that O'Connor will be stripped of the gold medal.

The test on the 'A' urine sample showed traces of banned substances, but the 'B' sample was stolen in Cambridge last month.

More to follow.

Coreene

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:07 AM

And may I add my own Jayzus Mary an' Joseph to this totally unsurprising result.

Ellie K

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:13 AM

Glimmerglass, your efficiency is impressive!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It is strange they are being provided with the amounts. The head of the FEI vet dept. stated in an interview that you are not informed of the amounts unless the substance has a threshold. I found it strange that they could proceed in these cases (even normal ones) without providing the lab analysis to the rider. How else can the rider make their case?

I guess he is banking on an appeal that will claim there was no conceivable performance enhancing effect. But that's a leap,I think the CAS can only uphold what's in the rules. And I think the FEI will throw the book at him and make an example, to show the IOC they're tough. Which is unfortunate, if it is a case of bad vet advice.

I know everyone is skeptical about that but isn't it possible that these drugs have come into use because they didn't used to test for them, and if you want to compete under these rules, you have to get creative or sit on the sidelines? So 10-12 days out, you wouldn't want to give ACP because it might test. But if your vet believes that these other drugs are a valid substitute, and won't be detected (not because you're trying to cheat, just trying to treat your horse out of competition), and usually if you get the desired results, you don't question your vet (who might be horribly uninformed). So isn't it possible that the FEI rules have caused people to try these drugs for the purpose of legitimate treatment, even if they're not trying to cheat, just treat? I still am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt in that regard. But I do think he hasn't helped his case mucking around about the earlier one.

Bea

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:32 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Is all I can say.

poltroon

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:37 AM

Fluphenazine is such a long acting drug that it has no place in the treatment of a horse going to the Olympics in the same year.

Um, so sorry your vet was criminally stupid. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif It seems surprising that anyone would be um, foolish, enough to use this drug on a second occasion after getting caught the first time.

I'm very disappointed in him, and disappointed for the sponsors and for all Ireland. It was a wonderful story back in August.

DMK

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:46 AM

Ellie, I think there is a legitimate treatment use for some of these drugs, but inevitably most of them are used for long term rehab cases (useful for fit, athletic horses who are injured and need to be safely confined to stall/turnout for extended periods). Unfortunately that doesn't quite sync up with being able to win a gold medal in "4 weeks", hence the cynicism.

And the USEF will recommend at least a 45 day withdrawal on reserpine if one were to ask them. Not sure about the FEI though. In any event, most people in this country - even lowly A/As - know that you need to know the Rx rules, much as eventers know you can't cross the timers twice in the jumper phase. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ellie K

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:56 AM

Poltroon the thing that makes me feel bad for him (assuming he wasn't using the drugs to manage the horse's temperament to make him easier to ride or something like that) is that he didn't have a chance to learn from the first mistake, that finding wasn't noticed until july 30, and by all accounts it was July 22 when Waterford was treated. (and I did see an interview with him after he won when he mentioned an injury to Waterford in late July). Granted, the use in more than one horse doesn't help his case either, nor does the presence of multiple drugs used in combination.

Ruby G. Weber

Nov. 9, 2004, 12:18 PM

Ho hummmm....Surprize? Not!

I also have this to say regarding "hydrotherapy." If the horse needed moving water therapy and would not stand in a motorized whirlpool or something similar, what the #%** is wrong with simply using the bloody hose? Don't think you need sedatives for that! So...pardon the pun...the "hydrotherapy" excuse never held water.

Ellie K

Nov. 9, 2004, 12:31 PM

Just wanted to add that adding to the stupid vet theory is that the horse was entered at Dublin Aug 4-8. So it wasn't just that the vet thought it would clear out in time for Athens, he thought it would be clear by Dublin. (or else he was under the impression he was using an undetectable substance, but I dont' mean to imply that he had the INTENT for the drug to be in the horse's sytem at the time of competition, again giving the benefit of the doubt in that regard.)

Then, the FEI issued its warning the end of July/early August (not sure exactly, since it appears it went to the NFs before going out to the public). Then the first notice about Landliebe was July 30, so knowing they were screwed--allegedly!--they withdrew the horse from Dublin for a respiratory tract infection (apparently one of the few equine ailments for which Mr. O'Connor's vet does NOT prescribe a sedative) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

DMK

Nov. 9, 2004, 12:35 PM

Ruby, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt when the first report came out, because they mentioned the horse was positive for a tranquilizer IIRC, not a sedative. To me "tranquilizers" are tranquilzers (ace) and a reasonable sort of thing to use if one wanted to use a useful but potentially scary sort of treatment device. But that's an altogether different proposition than sedatives, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Actually does reserpine, et al even fall into sedative class? I think not - I think they are in another class altogether - even MORE to my point! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

JER

Nov. 9, 2004, 03:24 PM

While O'Connor has stated publicly that his horse received a sedative for hydrotherapy treatment and that the sedative was administered by his vet, to my knowledge the vet-in-question has NOT acknowledged giving the horse fluphenazine and zuclophentixol for said hydrotherapy treatment.

It makes me wonder if the vet actually gave the horse something like ace for the hydrotherapy session -- after all, O'Connor reports that the vet assured him it would be gone from the horse's system within 14 days. What kind of vet would give a horse fluphenazine and zuclophentixol for a hydrotherapy session?

(It occurred to me that perhaps the treatment session was not 'hydrotherapy' but 'psychotherapy' given the labeling of both of these substances.)

If anyone saw the article about the O'Connor affair in the New York Times this morning, didn't you like how the writer explained the use of the drugs?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Sedatives and antidepressants are widely used to keep horses focused and under control. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great PR for equestrian sports, huh?