US Olympic Show Jumping team wins Olympic gold by default

[Jaysee]

Here we go again....

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2005/01/08/sports1342EST0331.DTL

http://62.2.231.126/PDFS/FEI/05_01/decision_goldfever.pdf

[Jaysee]

Here we go again....

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2005/01/08/sports1342EST0331.DTL

http://62.2.231.126/PDFS/FEI/05_01/decision_goldfever.pdf

[Countryhawk]

I heard this yesterday. Even tho they did say it had nothing to do with proformance enhancing they have a no anything tolerance.

[Party Rose]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "The Judicial Committee has agreed that the horse, Goldfever, and (Beerbaum) must be disqualified from the event <span class="ev_code_RED">and that all prizes and prize money won at the event must be forfeited," </span>the FEI said in a statement on its Web site <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Have I been missing something for all of these years. Prize money in the Olympics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif ???? Where have I been?

[Bumpkin]

It seems like in the Olympics, as long as you are Drug Free you will win.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Countryhawk]

Party Rose,
I had wondered about the prize money too? Or is that just a blanket statement?

[Other]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
It seems like in the Olympics, as long as you are Drug Free you will win.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FOR REAL!!!! Sheesh..after all those drugging threads about our vacationing riders/trainers this year, who woulda thunk we'd be the only cleanies!

[Madame Butterfly]

I believe that rules are rules and that everyone has to play by them. I am happy that we have the gold and we have wonderful riders that deserve a gold in every way....however, I still believe that this creme did not enhance Goldfever's performance and that this is an empty gold for us, except that it congratulates our "drug" honesty. And that is a feather in our cap.

I am sure the Germans are devastated and they should be. They are incredible riders and someone should have stopped the use of this creme regardless of whether it had an effect or not. It's still illegal. Tho I must admit, I myself have used the creme on myself, and it sure didn't make me any more athletic.

It pains me that this all happened and I hope it never happens again, at least on such a large and international horsey scale. I guess the next story will be of Cian O'Connor, and this pains me as well.

[Jumphigh83]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
It seems like in the Olympics, as long as you are Drug Free you will win.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow...harsh... they still had to jump the jumps..I dont condsider they won by "default" when they won by playing by the rules..they all KNEW the rules...only some played by them..too bad soo sad for the ones who can't figure out what the rules are at THAT stage of their competative life. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Snowbird]

It certainly tarnishes the thrill of the gold medal to win by default of someone else's errors in judgement. I wonder did they use the same NSAID which we just approved for use.

[Madame Butterfly]

Thank you, Snowbird. I like agreeing with someone intelligent. Sorry I can't join you in Lexington. I love it there.

The money's kinda tarnished, too...it's like blood money, maybe a little better, but not much.

[OverOxer]

Pity, the whole scandal about drugging in the games. I still consider the Germans to be the ultimate powerhouse in show jumping and agree with the previous poster who didn't believe that whatever was found in the tests did actually enhance Goldfever's performance. Really, when this horse and rider combinate have been performing so remarkably in prior years without any such incidents, why on earth would they choose to take a stupid risk like using performance boosters at the biggest oh them all - the Olympics? Ah, well. What's done is done.

With regard to the prize money, I know that some NFs offer incentives to their athletes in the form of healthy monetary compensation if they bring back a medal. Perhaps this is what the statement was referring to when it mentioned prize money.

[Madame Butterfly]

They are the ultimate powerhouse, whoever you are, OO..

It's a huge denouement... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Jumphigh83]

I'll just sit here and look stupid.......

[Madame Butterfly]

Is that your son in the picture, Betsy,...he's cute.

[Coreene]

What a BS gold. The US didn't "win" it, they did not earn it, they were given it.

[Madame Butterfly]

Now that I have skimmed the above two articles, may I add the following:

1) I can understand why the betameth was applied...the cold makes my skin crack around my nails and I apply cortisone to soften the very painful crack...doesn't give my fingers speed while typing or playing the piano...(wish it did,, I could play "Flight of the Bumble Bee so much faster!!!); I put betameth on my dog's tummy skin eruptions...cleared them up but didn't give her cut abs (no Guiness Book of Records for her!)....What perturbs me even more is that Mr. Beerbaum's groom put the cream on....did LB know...did the groom know? Ugh!

2) Now here's where I get controversial. Sorry. I am somewhat disappointed in McLain Ward's comment. He is so talented. Maybe it is youth that causes that hoof in mouth disease. A bit more humility, a bit more...I don't know the word. It would have been far more judicious to say:

"We are sorry to get the gold in this manner. The Germans are a powerhouse, a very talented team. We accept their loss, however, we look forward to the Olympics in 2008 where we hope to get the gold a different way, a better way."

I am sure that this is what you meant, Mr. Ward. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jaysee]

Coreene, I agree with you re" "winning" the gold... I wouldn't want to be LB's groom right about now. I have to wonder what she was thinking having been his groom for the past 18 years. She should have known better.

[JustJump]

&lt;&lt;What perturbs me even more is that Mr. Beerbaum's groom put the cream on....did LB know...did the groom know? Ugh!&gt;&gt;

Not only did the rider know, but his team vet knew as well. There was also a part played, (inadvertently?), by the official FEI vet...all of which have been the subject of past threads, many of which included quotes of FEI proceedings/statements to that effect. The ramifications of the disqualification are no surprise, this development has been expected for quite some time...

But I don't see what has changed, as the IOC must still follow through regarding the recommendation of the FEI, and do the disqualifying--I don't see the IOC mentioned in this report. I might be missing something, but it seems that this point in the proceedings was reached a couple months ago.

LB still has the option of appealing to the CAS.

Thoughts?

The German fed is getting a big dose of "what goes around..." after taking the hard line with LB's SIL, MMB, they can hardly uphold LB's or their team's hold on the gold.

Not to mention thoughts about the ongoing Cian Chronicles...

I think we have learned that Gold isn't everything, and its price is very high. And that we'd do well to simply pay attention to how the game is run, and how we run our own game. We have a lot of housekeeping to do right here on our shores, on all fronts, certainly enough to sharply temper any satisfaction we might feel at having our team elevated to the number one spot under these circumstances.

[Countryhawk]

It is a shame that the German's for whatever reason lost the medal. BUT when playing by the rules, at this point you gotta know them. Just wish everyone had gone by the rules...

[JulieMontgomery]

I agree with Madame Butterfly..... especially about the rather gauche comment from one of our team members .....

Receiving the gold because the Germans screwed up will never have the same flavor as winning it outright.

Sad but true....

(And no, I don't pity the Germans one bit!)

[Jumphigh83]

Agreed Julie..It is never good form to gloat or take pleasure in someones misfortune...I have to read the comments.
My point was that the medals arent exactly mailed to you. They competed and they did well.That should be its own reward. I know if I were Chris K I would GLADLY exchange my medal (no matter what color) for my horse back.
What the heck happened to sportsmanship in this country?? When are the trainers going to insist on good manners and some class? (RHetorical I know just frustrating)

[Snowbird]

AMEN! That is the question of the day. It takes away from the victory of a gold when you win it by default. That's not really a reason for a celebration and to have lost your horse besides has to be the pits.

[Madame Butterfly]

I think the majority of people feel the way we feel....

Also, I don't want this to be a public bashing for a gauche comment. This fellow is an incredible incredible rider. But being young, he hasn't learned, shall we say, the art of public speaking. But he will,...because we all do.

I still manage to manuever my big hoof into my mouth and hurt people's feelings...No one's perfect.

[Bumpkin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JulieMontgomery:
I agree with Madame Butterfly..... especially about the rather gauche comment from one of our team members .....

Receiving the gold because the Germans screwed up will never have the same flavor as winning it outright.

Sad but true....

(And no, I don't pity the Germans one bit!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this Julie.

No I don't think my post was harsh at all.
The sad truth is, people seem to cheat or get caught more, and so those who may not be as good win the good karma.
Perhaps this will make those who do cheat to win think twice before drugging.
Rules are rules.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

I can't stand gloating, and I also am dissapointed that the US won the gold by default, not by actually winning, however, the US did play be the rules. I am proud of that. I am relieved that we were not sited for drugging and I think that can be considered good sportsmanship. I don't think that LB's horse was given a performance enhancing drug either, and their loss is a shame, for that reason. I do think that the list of prohibited drugs need to be reviewed. But, let it be known also, that ANYTHING that can be applied topically, will make it's way into the blood stream and could effect the animal in ways other than the intended way. I doubt that happened here, but it is worth noting for your own personal information. I have noticed that Mr Ward has a way with foot in mouth disease, he seems to be young and a bit arrogant. Hopefully that is something that he will outgrow and eventually he will be more down to earth. I have watched him grow over the years and remember when he was REALLY tall and VERRRRY skinny. I have always admired his skill and good fortune (being the son of Barney Ward is good fortune in my book). I hope he can soon rise to the occasion and handle things in a down to earth and classy way. I am more blown away by class than by arrogance. I can always hope...

The real tragety is and always will be Chris K's tragety. I feel so badly for him, his family and owners of the horse. Royal was a wonderful animal with a great heart and he will always be remembered fondly by all of us. RIP wonderful boy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
It certainly tarnishes the thrill of the gold medal to win by default of someone else's errors in judgement. I wonder did they use the same NSAID which we just approved for use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No; it wasn't a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, it was a corticosteroid.

And, so far as the new topical NSAID approved here, well, FEI rules are still FEI rules. USEF allows oral and parenteral NSAIDS in fixed amounts. FEI dose not.

Apples and oranges.

[Madame Butterfly]

I believe that McLain. Ward will indeed rise to the occasion. Remember, CK was groomed for 18 years by the ultimate in manners, GM, and is further friendly with a certain PR fellow who I suspect was helpful with the IMG signing and is also a specialist in presentation...

Aside from being the trainer's trainer, GM is the epitome of proper presentation.

Time makes polite poopies of us all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Snowbird]

Wouldn't life be nice and simple if we all abided by the FEI standards all the time. I personally am in favor of the zero tolerance for drugs in either horses or riders. Perhaps trainers who don't ride could be exempted.

I fail to comprehend the logic that we can use these supplements nationally. Why shouldn't we always have horses that are healthy and sound on their merit and judge them all when in that condition? We know horses can metabolize medication differently so there can be horses who have an advantage they shouldn't have but are just not tested that time.

But then that is off topic and the issue is that we were better than most because our horses were found innocent. If there is going to be this kind of a shake-up after every Olympics in many sports that will tarnish the whole Olympic concept.

What are the options? Just to not catch them or for them to hire better chemists?

[lauriep]

I'm sure the US team is thinking "There but for the grace of God go I." As well they should, as it just as easily could have happened to us. No matter how many knowledgeable, honest people you have on your team, mistakes can happen because there are still people involved, and people make mistakes, unintentional and intentional.

Now Cian's case, OTOH, is a different kettle of fish. I know of no reason that drug should ever be administered to a horse. Other than to make it quiet...

As for McLain's comment, as is usually the case, it was probably taken out of context, so don't be too quick to judge.

[Madame Butterfly]

Very true, Lauriep..

Either way, McLain Ward is a major talent with a major future who needs a press agent with no conflicts of interest. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[khobstetter]

I, personally, am THRILLED we are now Gold.

I would have liked it to be in a "different" set of circumstances..but it is not.

As for the "creme".......anyone who has shown FEI horses, at any level, is well aware of just how terribly strict the testers and rules are.

We are cautionad about EVERYTHING and instruced to check absolutely everything, everyday..right down to the shampoo you do, OR DO NOT, use on your horse, the detangler for the tail, the spray to keep them from eating their wraps. Fly sprays, hoof ointment and so on are all things (substances) we are cautioned to research with extreme caution....and told "if there is a question of any kind, do not use it".

Just about EVERYONE, with these horses, knows FOR A FACT that whatever is rubbed, sprayed, applied on the outside of a horse will go internal and be picked up on a test.

This is simply not new...in any way.

I was not there so I will not speculate on how, when, where...I will only comment on the NOW WE KNOW!!

A HUGE anount of the TOP sponsors have pulled their backing of the riders throughout Germany...this did not happen from one little "mishap".

I shop there, I know some of the people involved and I have an intense amount of respect for them...BUT

Whether its a fallen rail, a dog running across the field, a flag whipping and spooking a horse, a broken bridle or a "bad" drug test...it is all part of the Judging Rules....

KNOW WHAT???????

We won and I am sending congrats to our Team.....I am not so happy about this "reason"...but would we be whinning so much about a win if a spectator dog had run out in the field and caused the top horse to be disqualified??

Nope...we would all be saying...what a bad deal...BUT WE WON!!!

It will forever be a controversial win...but none the less we won because we DID play by the rules...all of them.

[sit up]

It is a shame that our riders were denied one of the greatest moments in sports, your flag being raised above all others while you are standing atop the medal podium listening to your national anthem, it is still a great moment for the US riders.

When you send your horse to the Olympics, you are a seasoned FEI competitor and understand the strict no drugs policy. The Germans had a big flap with Meridith Beerbaum in the selection trials. One would have thought that would have made the Beerbaums especially careful.

One of the reasons that there is a no drug policy is that many "non performance-enhancing drugs" mask other "performance-enchancing drugs." This is a known fact. So while the drug he was caught with did not in fact enhance the horse's performance it could have been masking one which did or maybe it was as he stated and simply to aid the horse's leg.

That is not for us to judge. What is for us to judge is that he violated the FEI rules and was disqualified for it.

I applaud the FEI's enforcement of their rule. Even if it would have been the Americans at the recieving end of the punishment my opinion would have been the same.

We knew the rules and played by them.

[JulieMontgomery]

We're not "whinning".... we're not even whining http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif..... we are discussing.

[khobstetter]

I stand corrected Julie........THANKS!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[JulieMontgomery]

My pleasure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Other]

Wait wait, was that post edited or did I miss something?

What did he say that was so "foot in mouth"-y?

Also, out of curiousity, which NSAID are you referring to Snowbird?

[Snowbird]

The new one that Dr.Lengel just agreed to include "Surpass" I think is a creme as well. I'm sorry but when it comes to drugs whether for animals or people I am very ignorant and have never seen any benefit to learning about them.

The Ricco Laws I think they call them say that it is "Racketeering" to do anything to alter the results of a Sporting Event. If a horse hurts, is a touch lame and couldn't win it shouldn't be there to try and win. We judge for horses for performance and soundness.

If a human is being judged for performance and he couldn't do it without medical assistance then it's not fair for him to win a competition. The horse is our athlete more than the rider.

I think it is very sad that the top teams were not honest and clean of drugs. I don't think that being the highest ranked team that didn't get caught using drugs but really wan't there is a definitive victory to brag to the children about.

I don't feel confident that next time everyone won't have better chemists so they won't get caught, does that make them honest? If you win something that way it is a hollow victory.

[findeight]

Surpass is an analgesic cream that can be applied directly to the joint. The hope is it will save having to give anything like Bute orally to relieve discomfort and stiffness from arthritic changes..

[Snowbird]

Maybe it's a generation thing! I have arthritic changes in my joints. I was taught that the reason for pain is that it is a warning that there is a problem and thst to mask it is to risk further injury.

Pain means no don't do it. I have little doubt that it would be possible with enough iboproferen for me to feel no pain and to think I was able to do lots of things that I really shouldn't. Then when it wore off I'd really hurt.

I think a little discomfort is the way the body tells us to slow down and be cautious. Now, the horse doesn't get that choice and that's not fair to the horse. I wouldn't like it if someone dosed me so that I could do more work and then I hurt more the next day I think I would feel abused.

[findeight]

I didn't say go out and jump 5' fences on the stuff, just posted what it was.

No, horses cannot chose but who's to say they wouldn't chose an aspirin over standing in a field for 15 years.

This and similar stuff may be picked up in a test days after it was used for legitimate reasons, like a bruise, and that needs to be worked out on the FEI levels.

Not the same as human antipsychotics to influence performance.

[Snowbird]

Just relating it to my personal pathology. After years of abusing my legs they are 110 years old as compared with the rest of me that's only 50 years old and the average comes out 75. If I rubbed them down they thought they we only 50 years old we could get into a lot of trouble.

[findeight]

We all relate to our own experience http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That's what makes the BB interesting...and contentious.

[Other]

Yes, but hasn't anyone ever sustained a short term injury, such as a bruise when they walked their shin on the stair? A purely superficial injury that has no bearing on their functional capabilities whatsoever?

I can think of few people who wouldn't mind a topical cream that might soothe that injury and permit them to go about their daily business as usual, rather than sit around for nothing.

I think many horsey calls for a gram of bute are similar. An older horse, much like an older person, sometimes suffers from simple bodily fatigue.

I have a metal joint in my ankle. It certainly hurts when the weather changes, and it doesn't hold up as well as the rest of my body. Does this mean when a storm is coming and it starts to ache, I shouldn't take my Ibuprofen and continue on with my shopping, riding, and work?

I see my horse in the same light. After a hard show day, my horse is tired, and his back is probably a little sore. After all, he uses it quite well. So, I will do him the curtesy of popping him a gram of bute, and giving him a nice liniment bath and covering him in a cozy cooler. And I'm sure he thanks me for it. He wakes up the next day A-ok, with no hint of soreness. Why would I deny him that? He works hard for me.

[Snowbird]

Well and yes you should because you're not in competition to see who is the most fit and the most capable or talented athlete. I have no objection for the horse at home so he can enjoy being in the pasture or even for a lesson. BUT if you were in competition then know you're not entitled to hide your weaknesses. It's like oxygen runners can't take a puff around the course. Maybe the lung capacity isn't as good as the other guy! Well that's what we're testing isn't it?

If you were doing a pre-purchase and the horse passed for sound because of a little help would you think that was fair?

[Other]

Oh, completely, Snowbird.

I see what you're saying, and I agree. My horses get bute after a long day at home, or at the show, because it makes them feel better and because it IS allowed. I certainly would NOT feel the same way were they competing under FEI standards.

Now, you must tell me. Who are these oxygen runners, what do they do, and what are they puffing??

[Snowbird]

You have to understand I'm one of the few people in this world that has never even been offered a puff of weed. When I was young the excitement was coffee and caffeine and nicotine to which I am seriously addicted. So, I'm not your most knowlegeable person for these deviations. I was too young for the drug revolution and now to old to worry about it. Missed the whole scene even in Greenwich Village, just born too soon.

But, an asthma inhaler like flo-vent opens up your air ways so that you can get more air into your lungs. Take a look at the Olympic Athletes and see how many say they have a touch of asthma. They can then use inhalers.

There are little coffee shop type bars where you can buy some puffing of oxygen, perfectly legal which clears your head an makes you feel lighter. And it is supposed to make you younger and stronger. I would think that would be a good way to expand the lung capacity and I know they use inhalers in Olympic Village. I use one myself and I know it sure helps with my allergies so there's some steroids or something in them.

[Ruby G. Weber]

Going in a bit of a different direction here. Although many topicals contain steroids, Panolog being one that immediately comes to mind, it is very common to use betamethazone in conjunction with HA when injecting joints.

I am of the opinion Gold Fever had some joint(s) injected prior to Athens, the Corticosteroid did not clear at the expected rate, or the speed of clearance they had counted on in the past changed due to more sensitive testing. For curiosity's sake I'd love to know how much was found. Was it .20 nanograms or .08?

As for C O'C, he's not fooling me. I don't believe, for one moment his story.

As for the future of zero tolerance in FEI competitions, I look for the threshold to be raised. In a way Ludger did the world of show jumping as well as the rest of the International disciplines a big favor. His getting caught using a relatively benign substance should make it crystal clear to the FEI how unrealistic their zero tolerance policy is in light of increasingly sensitive testing.

As far as Cian O'Connor,

[buryinghill1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruby G. Weber:
...getting caught using a relatively benign substance should make it crystal clear to the FEI how unrealistic their zero tolerance policy is in light of increasingly sensitive testing... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think the FEI will change their zero tolerance rule (too bad). I know of no other Olympic sports that tolerate ANY meds. If Olympic horsesports allow meds, the press will - sadly - have a field day.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
The new one that Dr.Lengel just agreed to include "Surpass" I think is a creme as well. I'm sorry but when it comes to drugs whether for animals or people I am very ignorant and have never seen any benefit to learning about them.

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thae fact that it is a cream has little if anything to do with what it *is* in terms of class of drug.

Bottom line is, some divisions have premitted medications; others do not.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Wouldn't life be nice and simple if we all abided by the FEI standards all the time. I personally am in favor of the zero tolerance for drugs in either horses or riders. Perhaps trainers who don't ride could be exempted.

I fail to comprehend the logic that we can use these supplements nationally...

What are the options? Just to not catch them or for them to hire better chemists? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry. I have reservations about some of the drugs that are used, and some of the amounts that are permitted, but I don't think that an outright ban would be either likely or necessarily in the best interests of the horse.

[Jumphigh83]

I have to dissagree with you SNowbird..sometimes pain means "no you havent been moving and now you are stiff" (classic ostro arthritis..keep moving) It is really important for arthritics to keep moving! (Says she who has Osteo, Rheumatic AND Psoriatic arthrits)
I also want to know how they are going to quantify the Surpass IF your horse licks or scratches the leg with thetopical on it since the testing is now so sophisticated and sensitive. You use the 5 inch ribbon (whatever) in compliance then Star scratches licks his leg and now the permitted levels are...? Soounds really complicated to me.

[NumberTenOx]

Just my opinion, I've read what McClain Ward said and it sounds fine to me. It was just one sentence, my guess is that his very next line was respectful of the Germans, just not as quotable. And in what way should he *not* be excited to have won the gold medal?

In LB's case, I just don't see the bogeyman. At most you could call it stupid, in many ways a tragedy. Cian's situation is so much clearer.

[Other]

NumberTenOx, I agree, I don't happen to see the problem with his quote at all.

[Madame Butterfly]

I wonder if Surpass works on people...

[Other]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
I wonder if Surpass works on people... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope so! I hope I'm not the only one who dips into my horses' stash every once in awhile...
Sometimes after a long show, I don't think I'd be able to walk without a little robaxin!

[Coreene]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NumberTenOx:
And in what way should he *not* be excited to have won the gold medal? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Except that he didn't win it. The US team did not win it, the Germans won it. The US team was handed it because of some bogus nitpicky rule.

[Jumphigh83]

Dont tell anyone but......re: Surpass and people...NO. Not for me. Nothing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jumphigh83]

Bogus nitpicky rule that applies to EVERYONE and EVERYONE knows about it and it is UNIVERSAL to ALL participants. Those that ignore said "nitpicky rule" KNOW the consequenses. Bogus rule?? I am in shock..I guess cheating is OK as long as you dont get caught. OR ignorance of your horses condition and medication is a defense. WOW..Times they are achanging!

[Madame Butterfly]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Other:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
I wonder if Surpass works on people... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope so! I hope I'm not the only one who dips into my horses' stash every once in awhile...
Sometimes after a long show, I don't think I'd be able to walk without a little robaxin! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, Other, Robaxin is available for people...Surpass isn't, I don't think...

I'm going to check this one out next time I see the ortho man..

[HandItOver114]

i got this from aim.com

Germany to Be Stripped of Olympic Gold



LONDON (AP) - Germany's Olympic team show jumping gold medal will go to the United States after the International Equestrian Federation announced it had disqualified rider Ludger Beerbaum and horse Goldfever for a doping offense.

``It's very exciting for us. It's an unfortunate thing for the sport, but it's nice for the Americans. It's exciting to win the gold medal, not in the traditional way, but it's still a gold medal,'' U.S. team member McLain Ward said.

Now Sweden will be awarded the silver, and Germany will drop to the bronze because the sport's governing body erased Goldfever's results from the Athens event.

``The Judicial Committee has agreed that the horse, Goldfever, and (Beerbaum) must be disqualified from the event and that all prizes and prize money won at the event must be forfeited,'' the FEI said in a statement on its Web site.


``The FEI will modify the team results at the Olympic Games based on a calculation of the team results as if (Beerbaum) and Goldfever had never participated in the Olympic Games.''


Beerbaum can appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.


The rider - who has denied cheating - said the banned steroid betamethasone was contained in an ointment used to treat a skin irritation on the horse.


The Judicial Committee accepted that the banned substance was connected to a legitimate medical treatment and that Goldfever received no competitive advantage from it.


It also said Beerbaum had not tried to enhance the horse's performance or gain any unfair advantage.


``Nevertheless, the (rider) has failed to ensure that Goldfever has no prohibited substances in its systems during an international event,'' the FEI said.



01/08/05 17:37

[Soul Kitchen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:

The US team was handed it because of some bogus nitpicky rule. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Barf..are you kidding me? Please, if it wasn't the German's getting set down you wouldn't give a hoot. So I guess Pessoa will get "handed" a gold on a "bogus nitpicky rule" if Cain gets stripped?

Coreen your comment sounds like sour grapes to me......... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Flash44]

I'm pretty tired of the "Aw Shucks well gee it didn't really help my performance please can I keep my winnings" attitudes. Turn the freaking baseball cap around to the front and admit that you couldn't get your horse to the competition in peak condition without a little illegal help.

The American team deserves all the prestige and accomplishment that comes with winning a gold medal because they got their horses and riders to the competition clean and healthy and were able to do the job. The ability to manage the horse is just as important as jumping and riding ability.

[Coreene]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soul Kitchen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:

The US team was handed it because of some bogus nitpicky rule. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Barf..are you kidding me? Please, if it wasn't the German's getting set down you wouldn't give a hoot. So I guess Pessoa will get "handed" a gold on a "bogus nitpicky rule" if Cain gets stripped?

Coreen your comment sounds like sour grapes to me......... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why would I care about Germans? I was bummed the Dutch didn't medal; I'm carring a Dutch passport and a US one, not a German one.

"Bogus" as in California use of bogus, sorry, poor work choice, but "bogus" as in BS.

Lauriep said "I'm sure the US team is thinking "There but for the grace of God go I." As well they should, as it just as easily could have happened to us. No matter how many knowledgeable, honest people you have on your team, mistakes can happen because there are still people involved, and people make mistakes, unintentional and intentional." Amen, sister. Ludger's mistake was unintentional, it was stupid, it didn't enhance the horse's performance, it was unfortunate, and in my opinion it is very sad that the US gets the medal because something like this. But the sanctimonious holding of the US above everyone else as great paragons of virtute, oh please. Teams who live in glass houses and all that.

Edited to include that O'Connor's thing is totally different. Fluphen is a whole 'nother interview.

[~LF]

Coreen, I always enjoy your viewpoints, as well as your sense of humor and level-headedness in responding and defending that view.

As a Canadian (hell, we didn't even qualify a team!) whom also holds a US passport, I agree with you.

[Flash44]

Funny how it always ends up being the groom's fault. At the track, many grooms don't even speak English and can't read and write. Yet you don't see that many "accidents" happening there. Most of the positives are due to meds that were intentionally administered to help the horse with a condition the required X days out, and it just didn't get out of the system quite fast enough. If you don't want a positive test, don't use anything. You know you are rolling the dice when you use meds even according to protocol.

And I'm not holding the US team up as an exemplary model. But during that competition, they had the best score while following all the rules. It doesn't get much more basic than that.

[khobstetter]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo, let me see if I unserstand some of the rational...I'll use an example..

I got to Indio and enter the VERY PRESTIGIOUS World Hunter thing they do with $50,000 and horses on both coasts competing.

I do not drug my horse, I prepare him very carefully and I am SECOND!!!

The first place horse is "accidently" given someone else's drug (or something else) by the groom....

When the tests come back and the first place horse is disqualified, they have to return the ribbons, trophys, and moneies..........AND I WIN.

It it that I should feel I won by "default" or "bogus"......????????????? Is it that my WIN was not a good one and I should not be happy....??????????????????

Or is it the rules are the rules and I WON!!!!! So sorry for the other guy but why should I be made to feel it was a bad win??????????

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Magnolia]

I'm glad the US got the gold. They rode well and followed the rules and were justly rewarded. They followed the rules. They beat a team who did NOT follow the rules. It actually happened twice to the germans. I bet next time they follow the rules.

Look, competition is about the actual competition plus following a series of rules that insure a level playing field. One way to keep the field level is to disallow drugs. It is pretty well known that they test and what they test for. Knowing that is as much of a part of competition and horsemanship as knowing your course. The german eliminated is one of the best. He knew the rules, and I would think would have one of the best grooms who knew the rules.

Which brings me to ANOTHER point. We won the team gold and part of that team is the grooms and vets. Obviously, our grooms and vets did their best to contribute by making sure nothing that was illegal was put on or into our horses. Hopefully the germans will work on improving that part of their team.

[mygenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo, let me see if I unserstand some of the rational...I'll use an example..

I got to Indio and enter the VERY PRESTIGIOUS World Hunter thing they do with $50,000 and horses on both coasts competing.

I do not drug my horse, I prepare him very carefully and I am SECOND!!!

The first place horse is "accidently" given someone else's drug (or something else) by the groom....

When the tests come back and the first place horse is disqualified, they have to return the ribbons, trophys, and moneies..........AND I WIN.

It it that I should feel I won by "default" or "bogus"......????????????? Is it that my WIN was not a good one and I should not be happy....??????????????????

Or is it the rules are the rules and I WON!!!!! So sorry for the other guy but why should I be made to feel it was a bad win??????????

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But we are pretty sure that the results would have been the same had the horse not been treated with the banned substance...It is a very thin line.

[Jaysee]

Flash, this time it really was the groom. Having worked (as a groom) for many top level people, I know better than to apply anything remotely questionable onto an FEI horse. No excuses. If said groom had any doubts about the substance, said groom should have asked the team vet. She has worked for LB for 18 years.... come on!

[Release First]

I'm with you khobstetter! While it is sad that it is not a "clean win" it is still a gold that the team members should be able to hold up and say "See what I won!" A gold medal can mean a lot of money in endorsements and continued prestige in the horse world. They played by the rules and of those who played by the rules they were the best that week. Good for them.

Why are Americans so hard on themselves? If a BNT from the US was caught using drugs, we would be all over him and most would ignore his excuses but if a BNT from another country is caught using drugs and heaven forbid we profit by it, we accept his excuses and support him. An interesting phenomenom.

[nutmeg]

This is the first show-jumping Olympics that has ever actually caused me to throw up, although I came close to womiting after Oh Star was left out of Sydney. I'm so disgusted by the whole thing I think all horses should be kicked out of the Games. Imagine denying Rodrigo Pessoa and Baloubet their long-deserved moment in the sun. What a time that should have been for them. Imagine coming back to America without your horse! Never mind the dressage judging. Imagine being Ludger's groom and having to take the fall for the disgrace of Germany, which really belongs to some smirking vet who thinks his chemicals are untraceable. I probably shouldn't be posting this since we should never post in anger, but what the heck.
Who's the winner? For Pleasure. He stayed home.

[Snowbird]

Yes! you should feel badly Kathy because you will never know if your horse would have won if the playing field was level and all the horses were clean from drugs and medication.

Forever this Gold Medal will be tainted by the doubt that if this hadn't happened if the horse had been clean would we have won? So there is no winner just losers. Whenever the results of sporting competition have been tampered with there is always that nagging doubt. Would the winner have won really? Was the other horse really better and accidentally treated? Did the groom handle dirty money as we had in some of our other competitions?

As long as those questions hang out there never answered then the Gold Medal wasn't won, it was awarded to the best of the horses that were not tainted. That is no more satisfying than being the best of the worst instead of the best of the best. The rules are simple and easily understood, zero tolerance for drugs!

It's rather like winning any game because the other party defaulted and didn't show up. You never know the truth of who deserved to be considered GOLD.

[A. Roose]

The U.S. did not "win" the gold. The Germans lost it because the horse failed a drug test. And, no, I am not German. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't know if this will force the FEI to change the drugs and meds rules. Although, at least these days humans can take cold medicine and not be stripped of their golds.

(Oh, and Knobsetter, I'd have that keyboard of yours checked if I were you. It seems to be sticking really badly.)

[khobstetter]

Gee Anne...I'll check the:
????????????????????????????????????? key
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmkey
.............................key and the
oooooooooooooooooooooooooo key...

Or maybe I'll just check my finger and see if I can hold it up in the air...then I know it won't get stuck! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think it's my hands fault ! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Other]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nutmeg:
This is the first show-jumping Olympics that has ever actually caused me to throw up, although I came close to womiting after Oh Star was left out of Sydney. I'm so disgusted by the whole thing I think all horses should be kicked out of the Games. Imagine denying Rodrigo Pessoa and Baloubet their long-deserved moment in the sun. What a time that should have been for them. Imagine coming back to America without your horse! Never mind the dressage judging. Imagine being Ludger's groom and having to take the fall for the disgrace of Germany, which really belongs to some smirking vet who thinks his chemicals are untraceable. I probably shouldn't be posting this since we should never post in anger, but what the heck.
Who's the winner? For Pleasure. He stayed home. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Touche, salesman.

I agree on the For Pleasure front. He probably got to watch it from his velvet lined stall, happily munching on carrots http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Or, at least I hope so.

My one point of confusion...How does the Royal Kaliber tragedy factor into tall of this?

[Jumphigh83]

My POV was that there is more to competing than winning....Haivng your horse happy and healthy is primary. If no one is playing by the rules we will NEVER know who the best horses are...LBs groom is really taking a bad hit..taking one for the team if you will..
Oh Star on the sidelines was a dissappointment to me too...that was a bad call.. but any jackass can kick a barn down..so what can we do to build a stronger rules compliant world class team?

[Flash44]

Ruby Weber pointed out that there is no way to determine exactly how the prohibited substances got into the horse's system. Did the loyal groom of 18 years working for one of the top riders in the world and rubbing on one of the top horses in the world REALLY decide to treat a horse prior to the OLYMPICS without being absolutely sure that was what the rider and vet wanted???? If so, that groom should have been fired. Is that what happened?

[RugBug]

I'm just shocked at the "It's a bogus medal" attitude coming from many of you. Wow, really shocked. Seems the US team can't win for losing.

No, the US didn't preform the best on the day...but we outperformed the Germans when it came to following the drug rules (and maybe we just got lucky this time, or maybe there was strict and accurate planning involved). If the competition was solely about jumping the jumps...then the Germans would come out on top. But the competition also involves following the strictest of rules. The team that has the best performance while accurately following the rules should be the one to come out on top. That is what is now happening. My opinion would hold true even if Jamaica was the one being bumped into the top spot. Thems the rules.

Bettina Hoy broke the rules in eventing. It was a tough break, a stupid amatuerish error that didn't enhance her performance. Should the eventual winners of those medals feel as if they are "bogus?"

As for Mclain's comment...I really don't see anything wrong with it. I'm sure the press called him up after the announcement and that was the sound bite chosen. It's perfectly legitimate and even admits that he would've rather won in a more traditional way. Now, if he had said something with a 'serves them right' tone...that would've been tacky...but he DIDN'T.

[Madison]

I completely agree, RugBug. Well said. Everyone knows what the rules are, and you just can't split hairs that way when it is a black line test. Hopefully, it will lead to an evaluation of what the current testing levels/system should be, but it should be a hard and fast rule regardless of circumstances. You can feel bad for the Germans, but let the US team enjoy their gold medal without calling it "bogus".

[Heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
I, personally, am THRILLED we are now Gold.

As for the "creme".......anyone who has shown FEI horses, at any level, is well aware of just how terribly strict the testers and rules are.

We are cautionad about EVERYTHING and instruced to check absolutely everything, everyday..right down to the shampoo you do, OR DO NOT, use on your horse, the detangler for the tail, the spray to keep them from eating their wraps. Fly sprays, hoof ointment and so on are all things (substances) we are cautioned to research with extreme caution....and told "if there is a question of any kind, do not use it". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Assuming you are the only one on this thread who has ever shown under FEO regs., khobstetter, and given that the Judicial Committee also concluded:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Judicial Committee accepted that the banned substance was connected to a legitimate medical treatment and that Goldfever received no competitive advantage from it.

It also said Beerbaum had not tried to enhance the horse's performance or gain any unfair ad vantage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't you, as someone who has competed under FEI regs., feel rather cheated as an indidivual and a team member?

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heidi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
I, personally, am THRILLED we are now Gold.

As for the "creme".......anyone who has shown FEI horses, at any level, is well aware of just how terribly strict the testers and rules are.

We are cautionad about EVERYTHING and instruced to check absolutely everything, everyday..right down to the shampoo you do, OR DO NOT, use on your horse, the detangler for the tail, the spray to keep them from eating their wraps. Fly sprays, hoof ointment and so on are all things (substances) we are cautioned to research with extreme caution....and told "if there is a question of any kind, do not use it". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Assuming you are the only one on this thread who has ever shown under FEO regs., khobstetter, and given that the Judicial Committee also concluded:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Judicial Committee accepted that the banned substance was connected to a legitimate medical treatment and that Goldfever received no competitive advantage from it.

It also said Beerbaum had not tried to enhance the horse's performance or gain any unfair ad vantage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't you, as someone who has competed under FEI regs., feel rather cheated as an indidivual and a team member? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but Heidi, those rulings weren't to absolve LB from using an illegal substance, but rather to say that the substance was being used for legitimate medical reasons. Basically they are just saying that they didn't think he was purposefully trying to subvert the rules and give himself an advantage. What he used was still illegal...which is why the medal is being taken away.

I would suppose that if the substance had been performance enhancing and used for that reason, that the ruling would've been harsher...for example, suspension instead of just being stripped of the medal (which is pretty harsh in its own right, but is in accordance with the rules).

[Heidi]

But to personalize for a sec., RugBug, if that was your horse that you'd campaigned for years, in whom you've invested money, effort, hopes and dreams; if that was your mount in whom you had invested similarly, doesn't it strike you as...odd, that they'd strip away a medal because he was being treated for a skin irration with a topical ointment?

[Ellie K]

Well I'm not khobstetter, but I don't think I would feel that way, not cheated by the rules at least, if that's what you mean. Cheated because the team vet f-ed up, yeah. The rules outline the procedure for administering prohibited substances at events, and those rules weren't followed. Ludger admitted in media reports that he assumed the team vet had taken care of getting approval from the FEI vet commission/ground jury as per the rules. As the PR, that was an unwise assumption to make although the German team vet admitted his error and resigned. The general regulations state very plainly that if it's there, it's there, and the only outcome can be disqualification... UNLESS written permission was granted by the FEI vet delegate/ground jury as per the rules.

Of course they also let Bettina off with her lame phantom FEI vet story, but that's a whole other thread...

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heidi:
But to personalize for a sec., RugBug, if that was your horse that you'd campaigned for years, in whom you've invested money, effort, hopes and dreams; if that was your mount in whom you had invested similarly, doesn't it strike you as...odd, that they'd strip away a medal because he was being treated for a skin irration with a topical ointment? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No...because those are the rules. Would I be haunted by the mistake for the rest of my life, certainly. But I don't think I could ever feel cheated out of a medal.

[khobstetter]

Heidi.....NOPE...SORRY!!!

First off...I am not the ONLY one who has something to do with FEI (NOT FEO) on this Board...

When someone is showing at that level YOU KNOW THE RULES AND THE RISKS!! You know that ANY substance put on the outside of a horse can show up in a test...WE KNOW THAT!! These riders did not get to this competition as their first FEI class.

The issue for me is NOT whether LB did "something" on purpose....it's the fact that the test was "hot".

If we spray fly spray on a horse, it is OUR responsibility!! AND we must take full responsibility if the test is hot.

That is my point....the drug test is a PART of the competition, not different than the jog.

I certainly don't hear anyone carrying on if a horse gets tossed out for the jog, so PLEASE spare me that this win is "tainted" because a competitior, for ANY reason, did not complete ALL phases of the competition.

At the Young Riders several years ago there was a horse "removed" from competition because shipping documents that were to be "inside" 14 days were actually given at 15 days. It was a rule that was not followed..it turned out to be a "mistake" but the horse was disqualified.

I am sorry LB has to suffer, BUT

WE WON!!!! YIPPEE. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I'm thrilled!!

[Flash44]

A teenaged girl was stripped of her gold medal for taking cough syrup. At least LB has a legitimate chance of competing in several more Olympics in the years to come. Very few female gymnasts remain at the top of their game long enough to repeat gold medal performances at the Olympics.

[BLBGP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nutmeg:
This is the first show-jumping Olympics that has ever actually caused me to throw up, although I came close to womiting after Oh Star was left out of Sydney. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you seriously throw up? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[nutmeg]

No, but very close. I inhaled so much snot from crying after I heard about Royal Kaliber that I thought I was going to. The fact that he had to jump off over and over again just devastated me. I shake my fist at God about that one. I must have bawled off and on for two weeks.

[Natalie]

I haven't read this entire thread, so sorry if any comments aren't relevant.

I agree, LB should have realized his mistake. BUT, the U.S. also didn't earn this medal. I agree, the German team is a powerhouse, and unfortuneatly, more competetive then the American team. I'm not thrilled by this medal for the Americans, because they didn't ride as well. And that's all there is to it.

TIME magazine ran an interesting last page editorial a few weeks back about doping in sports re calls to hold major league baseball to greater accountability. The notion of holding our athletes to such high standards was analyzed within the context of our own "drug enhanced" society. Viagra, Botox, and so and and so forth "enhance" what God gave us, and we have few qualms about this. But God-forbid our athletes should possibly feel that they can enhance their own performance in similar ways.

Not advocating the use of performance-enhancing drugs, but certainly something to think about.

[Natalie]

Found the exact article in case any one is interested. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/poniewozik/article/0,9565,1006842,00.html

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Natalie:
BUT, the U.S. also didn't earn this medal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did earn the medal, though. They earned it by making sure they followed the drug rules and by putting in the best performance while following those rules.

The Germans DIDN'T earn it because they didn't follow all the rules. Yes, they jumped the jumps better, but they didn't have the drug component in place. The competition isn't just about the jumps, it's about following ALL the rules.

It would've been nice if the U.S. had been the best over the jumps as well, but the fact stands that they were the best within the rules of the competition.

[Natalie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
[
It would've been nice if the U.S. had been the best over the jumps as well, but the fact stands that they were the best within the rules of the competition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%. BUT, it is clear that the drug in question was not performance-enhancing. So while the U.S. was the best team with in the rules, they were not the best team. I can't be thrilled over something like that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Natalie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
It would've been nice if the U.S. had been the best over the jumps as well, but the fact stands that they were the best within the rules of the competition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%. BUT, it is clear that the drug in question was not performance-enhancing. So while the U.S. was the best team with in the rules, they were not the best team. I can't be thrilled over something like that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose I am less thrilled that it wasn't a clear violation because of a performance enhancing aspect...but the rules are the rules...performance enhancing or not. You still have to follow them ALL to win. The US did. Germany didn't. Simple as that, at least for me.

[buschkn]

I am an American. I continue to dare to dream that I might someday be able to ride for the Team. This has been tainted a bit by the last Olympics to be sure- is it worth all the cost to go? But that is another issue.

I am happy for our US Team for being granted the Gold. I would be happier if they had actually WON the Gold. Yes, they "played by the rules", or their horses didn't test for anything, but ultimately Goldfever did not receive any performance benefit from the topical cream. He was the better horse, on the better team, THAT DAY. If you watch the team competition again, it is clear that Germany has been, and continues to be, leagues ahead of the rest of the world. They rode better, much better, than we did. I am VERY proud of our team, and they performed beautifully, but they really earned the silver. The gold is being granted on a technicality.

I understand the rules, I do, and I understand that there are reasons for them, but my god, can't we be reasonable about some things? Kids taking cough syrup? Someone being kicked out b/c the paper is ONE day too old? LB and the whole German team being ousted because of a cream for a RASH? There are exceptions to EVERY rule, ever hear that? I know they are to permit fair play, but sometimes it doesn't work out to be so fair, after all. I can only hope that the FEI will review and alter its policy somewhat.

So I congratulate our Team for a job well done. They should be happy, we should all be happy. Just not AS happy as we would have been... And I hope we can really WIN the Gold in 2008, and we'll be sure to do it without any ointment.

[NumberTenOx]

A teeny bit more information from this Horse and Hound article (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/60590.html). The part I thought interesting was down a bit:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While the FEI Judicial Committee said it recognised that “Goldfever received no specific competitive advantage as a result of the administration of the prohibited substance, which was for a legitimate medical treatment", Beerbaum did not follow the correct procedure to obtain clearance to use the substance.


Also, the President of the Veterinary Commission at the Olympic Games and FEI veterinary committee chairman, Professor Leo Jeffcott, stated that – had the German team vet approached him about Goldfever's skin condition – he wouldn't necessarily “have given permission for this cream to be used,” because “a positive test could not have been differentiated from this drug being given by another route for an orthopedic problem that could therefore have affected the horse's performance.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting.

On another note, I think there is a lot of talking sideways in this thread. I don't think that most of us are really disagreeing with each other, just emphasising different things. Here are some things which I think are obvious.

1) Ludgar Beerbaum is a great rider.
2) He screwed up this time, out of stupidity and not with intent to cheat, and it cost him the gold medal.
3) This is too bad for the German team, but that's the rules and we should support the FEI decision.
4) The US team did a fabulous job of winning the silver medal, and we should be proud of them.
5) We expect them not to cheat (and also to avoid stupid mistakes), and they didn't, and we should be happy with that, too.

The tricky part comes from whether you think they should be "happy" with "winning" the gold medal. There are differences of opinion about this.

Personally, I believe that they officially *won* the gold medal, that is why the FEI is suggesting that they be presented with the gold medal. I think whether that makes you "happy" or not depends a lot on many personal factors. I think that if I were one of those team members, I'd be *damn* happy to be able to say that I won a gold medal, despite the murky circumstances.

[Lord Helpus]

#10 Ox,

I agree with you.

I don't see too many people arguing that the US should not have been AWARDED the Gold Medal.

It seems that we are discussing whether or not the team WON the Gold Medal for Olympic Show Jumping, and if we can take pride in that accomplishment. And that depends on how each of us defines OSJ.

Those of us who define it as following every rule, whether or not the violation of a rule has any effect on the outcome of the competition, feel proud that the US WON gold.

Those of us who define it as going head to head with horses and riders from other nations, none of whom are on any performance enhancing medications, and seeing who is the best on that day, based on skill, talent and training, do not feel that the US really WON and, therefore, do not feel proud in being named the winners.

But all of us agree that, AS THE RULES CURRENTLY STAND, they were violated by the Germans.

A side issue is whether or not the rules should be changed.

[sit up]

The American team WON the gold. That is all there is to it. Head to head, they didn't match up but the other team was cheating. Maybe without drugs, we would have beaten them head to head but because of the drugs, we weren't given the chance.

Now, all of you can argue that it wasn't a performance enhancing drug. So what, it was against the rules. We sent a team that was 100% clean, they didn't.

As I said before, many times drugs that are banned are not banned because they enhance performance but because they mask OTHER performance enhancing drugs. I am not sure if this drug is capable of doing that or not. It doesn't really matter because it was illegal under the FEI rules.

Also, LB shows all the time under FEI rules. He knows them upside down. There is just no excuse for messing up and doing so at the Olympics is unforgiveable.

Bravo to the Olympic committee for pulling the medals.

[Madame Butterfly]

All this brouhaha gets a little tired...

We got the gold by default. I'm sure none of our riders will be running around screaming, "We got the gold, we got the gold..." We lost something too, a great horse. A heartbreaking loss for his owner.

So, to me anyway, it looks like Germany and US both won and both lost...The line between silver and gold is just too muddy here...

[LazyTrot]

I am so sick of the Olympics, generally, and this is just one more nail in the coffin. Every Olympics there are multiple incidences of medals in contention (the ice skating, the gymnastics, now the show jumping, etc). And those are only the sports I watch, I'm sure there are many more in track and field and swimming. Who even remembers who won and for what, when months later, after investigation has been completed, the standings change anyway?
Not to mention the ridiculous amount of money that must be spent on "security".

All I will remember from this Olympic's showjumping competition, sadly, is what happened to Royal K. He went over to compete, and competed his heart out, and never came back.

[Monarch]

Interesting to me that some of you feel we really shouldn't feel good that we ended up with the gold medal because we were out jumped so to speak & some feel that because the drug was not considered a preformance enhancer it wasn't really breaking the rules or shouldn't matter.
I then wonder how the same people would feel if LB's mistake was a matter of jumping a full course clean but went off course over the last fence? instead of the drug infraction? I mean he still would have out jumped us.
part of playing the game and winning is playing by the rules no drugs and staying on course to name a few.

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monarch:
I then wonder how the same people would feel if LB's mistake was a matter of jumping a full course clean but went off course over the last fence? instead of the drug infraction? I mean he still would have out jumped us.
part of playing the game and winning is playing by the rules no drugs and staying on course to name a few. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I liken the situation to a top hunter doing a perfect course...but with protective boots on. The boots don't enhance performance, but they are against the rules. The boot wearing horse, no matter how perfect, should be disqualified and the second place finisher bumped to first because they managed a near perfect course while following the rules of the game. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And the new winner should be allowed to be proud of their accomplishment of competing within the rules.

[khobstetter]

Great example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We Won, Yippee, I AM PROUD OF OUR TEAM!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif