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View Full Version : For DQ's in the know- what's that tidbit in the eurodressage blog?



BetterOffRed
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:49 PM
About a dressage trainer that was deposed by U.S. Marshall's in the warm up area?
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/10/06/words-weg-6-october-2010-thinking-back-days

What's the scoop? What trainer? I am guessing if the U.S. Marshall's are involved, it must be a matter of public record?

SGray
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:00 PM
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/006122.html

probably re the above case

ladybugred
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:50 PM
I think it's a shame that the Marshalls' actions ruined Racheal Sanna's ride

BetterOffRed
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:15 PM
I think it's a shame that the Marshalls' actions ruined Racheal Sanna's ride

DEETS!!! Por Favor!

Bogey2
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:19 PM
gee, I feel worse for the sellers...what a screwing they got from the "horse trader".

meupatdoes
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:20 PM
"Defendant also told Tyrone during that conversation that because he had been unable to find a buyer at the price plaintiffs were asking, he would forgo his commission if plaintiffs accepted the $312,000 offer. Plaintiffs instructed defendant to sell the horse for $312,000, with no commission going to defendant. Plaintiffs received a wire transfer at their bank in Tennessee from defendant for $311, 964.50 shortly thereafter.

Plaintiffs subsequently learned, without disclosure from defendant, that the buyer had actually paid defendant $480,000.
...
It seems apparent that defendant offered no defense not because of any undue hardship but rather because he had no valid defense on the merits."

What an eff crook.

BetterOffRed
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:23 PM
my BS detector would probably have started going off at this point:


he would forgo his commission if plaintiffs accepted the $312,000 offer.

meupatdoes
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:26 PM
my BS detector would probably have started going off at this point:

I loved how he insisted up and down he couldn't find them a buyer for $500k, and then sold the horse for $480.

Translation: he couldn't find them a buyer for $700k who would agree to write the check to the dealer instead of directly to the owner.

Velvet
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:37 PM
You do the crime, you do the time. Or, pay what you owe. He should have known that coming back here would create that sort of situation. Oh, wait, I forgot of whom we are speaking.

I'm guessing it was a rude awakening to find out he was going to be treated like everyone else when he got here. :eek:

Peace
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:40 PM
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's a DUCK...

If what the plantiff said is true I hope he gets nailed for it. I'm so tired of horse trainers etc screwing owners. I'm also sick of if you open your mouth and tell so and so xyz trainer has a horse for sale some how you are entitled to a commission. I don't know how these people sleep at night. I also think it sucks if your trainer says how much do you want for the horse and you say $100,00 and they sell it for $175,000and they make $75,000. Tell your trainer you want every dime they can get for the horse and the check is made out to you and you will pay them their commission. In the hunter jumper world you'd probably be kicked out of the barn:mad:

So what does being deposed by marshalls mean?

Velvet
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:47 PM
So what does being deposed by marshalls mean?

I'm not sure the marshalls would have bothered taking a statement at this point in time. The jury had already decided the case (based on the link), so I'm not sure it was correct to say they "deposed" him. Maybe it is, but it doesn't sound right--not when Marshalls are involved (if they're federal Marshalls).

Depose: : to testify to under oath or by affidavit b : affirm (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affirm), assert (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assert) c : to take a deposition of <depose a witness>
intransitive verb
: to bear witness

scheherazadetbmare
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:47 PM
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/006122.html

probably re the above case

Wow talk about major fraud!:eek: He stole a lot of $$$ from the sellers.

Peace
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:49 PM
It means AA doesn't write very well in English. ;)

So what happened? Did U.S. Marshalls come and what did they do?

Velvet
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:51 PM
So what happened? Did U.S. Marshalls come and what did they do?

I just updated my reply. :lol: I was being a smarta** and then thought maybe a bit different information was required. :yes:

Peace
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:53 PM
I just updated my reply. :lol: I was being a smarta** and then thought maybe a bit different information was required. :yes:

So was he arrested or removed from the property?:confused:

Janet
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:54 PM
So what does being deposed by marshalls mean?

It means that the US Marshalls interviewed him ("deposed him") for a formal deposition.

A deposition is a record of out-of-court oral testimony related to a court proceding.

Janet
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:57 PM
Does anyone remember if he actually PAID the penalties imposed by the court? Or did he just count on being able to avoid consequences by being out of the countyr?

meupatdoes
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:58 PM
Does anyone remember if he actually PAID the penalties imposed by the court? Or did he just count on being able to avoid consequences by being out of the countyr?

I would imagine that if he had already paid up in full nobody would be wasting their time continuing to pursue him.

Peace
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:58 PM
We need yankeelawyer:lol:

scheherazadetbmare
Oct. 6, 2010, 04:00 PM
So now the plaintiffs take their judgment to the local court in the Netherlands, if he lives there, or to the world court which is at The Hague?

Too bad he still doesn't own property in FL or they could go after that house.

Velvet
Oct. 6, 2010, 04:12 PM
Too bad the Marshalls couldn't just nab him and hold him until he paid. :D

Rat King
Oct. 6, 2010, 05:42 PM
He has not paid any of the $500,000 judgment which was first rendered by the Federal 9th District court, then upheld by the 6th Circuit, the second highest court in the US. The US Marshals did not depose him but rather delivered a Notice of Deposition, Request for Production of Documents and Interrogatories, as well as collect any cash, jewelry, personal property on his person. Today, the amount of monies owed is in excess of $900,000 given 10 years of interest. He was deposed the following day in Lexington. His home in FL was transfered to his then-girlfriend (with whom he has a child) one day before the emergency order was registered in FL in the year 2000.

meupatdoes
Oct. 6, 2010, 05:47 PM
His home in FL was transfered to his then-girlfriend (with whom he has a child) one day before the emergency order was registered in FL in the year 2000.

I would guess that they can probably reach that house then since it was clearly a fraudulent transfer to avoid having it taken.

God I hope they nail him.

katarine
Oct. 6, 2010, 06:02 PM
What a classy guy, eh?

Rat King
Oct. 6, 2010, 06:10 PM
True that. How did the US Marshals ruin Racheal Sanna's ride?

katarine
Oct. 6, 2010, 06:16 PM
Maybe Sjef threw his checkbook to her to hide ;)

Eye in the Sky
Oct. 6, 2010, 08:05 PM
Oh my. Sjef has been naughty. Again.

Bats79
Oct. 6, 2010, 08:22 PM
True that. How did the US Marshals ruin Racheal Sanna's ride?


That's what I want to know!!

Peace
Oct. 7, 2010, 12:40 AM
That is just sick..I hope the dutch courts uphold this if it gets to them. Wish they had arrested him.

opel
Oct. 7, 2010, 12:14 PM
Wow, I'd always been willing to give him the benefit of the doubt--understanding that a lot of people are plain jealous. This changes things. What an asshat. Hope he has to pay and hope the word gets out. I am so sick of these trainers who don't think the law applies to their horse deals. Finding an honest broker is like finding a diamond.

SGray
Oct. 7, 2010, 03:34 PM
True that. How did the US Marshals ruin Racheal Sanna's ride?


?? anyone ??

Velvet
Oct. 7, 2010, 04:55 PM
No one has an answer because it didn't happen! There was no ruining the ride. Not by any disruption or outside interference.

BetterOffRed
Oct. 7, 2010, 05:08 PM
No one has an answer because it didn't happen! There was no ruining the ride. Not by any disruption or outside interference.

how unfortunate. :(
We could always use another reason to hate Mr. van Grunsven

meupatdoes
Oct. 7, 2010, 06:06 PM
how unfortunate. :(
We could always use another reason to hate Mr. van Grunsven

I think there are, by the most conservative calcuation, at least 170,000 reasons in this thread already.

So one additional kerfluffle by the warm up area, give or take, would not have statistically significant impact.

ise@ssl
Oct. 7, 2010, 08:32 PM
This has nothing to do with the Dutch courts. He was determined to be doing business in the United States - the fact that he is a resident of Holland makes no difference. I hope they hold him when he tries to leave the country. It's amazing that this case has been known by many people in the horse world - BUT NEVER REPORTED ON IN THE PRESS.
He's a snake and as we all now there are many more of these "trainers" acting as agents in the USA who are ripping people off left and right. Turn on the lights and watch the roaches run for the walls.

And good for the Neals for going after him.

Coreene
Oct. 7, 2010, 08:36 PM
I hope they hold him when he tries to leave the country.He's in Australia for Patrick and Lyndal's wedding on Saturday. Went there from Holland.

Velvet
Oct. 7, 2010, 11:43 PM
...Mr. van Grunsven

:lol: Love that, BOR!

eurodressage
Oct. 8, 2010, 08:39 AM
A few facts
- Sjef Janssen is a resident of Belgium. His official address is in Belgium. He officially doesn't live with Anky
- Sjef and Anky are not officially married. A Las Vegas marriage doesn't count in Holland unless you declare it, which they didn't do. So they are not married.

I think there are many horse buyers out there who have paid exuberant prices for their horses of which more than half is just commission fee for agents, trainers, finders, etc etc.

I think it's a pity horse dealing can't be honest, and that all these trainers, riders, even someone who just laid eyes on the horse is claiming a finder's fee and wants a cut of the cake.

This not only happened with the Neal's horse.. it happens all the time and it destroys the business for honest people who want to sell their horse... or honest buyers who think they pay a realistic price for their horse.

As soon as dealers know you are rich you get sucked dry to the bone

TWF
Oct. 8, 2010, 10:07 AM
" Janssen engaged in a business transaction with plaintiffs that went on over a substantial period of time. He established a relationship with plaintiffs from which he hoped to profit financially. He then defrauded plaintiffs, altering the amount of money to be sent to them in Tennessee. These facts are sufficient to make it reasonable for Tennessee to exercise personal jurisdiction over defendant. Because defendant is not a citizen of the United States, we are sensitive to the "[s]pecial concerns [that] arise when a plaintiff attempts to bring a foreign defendant within our national borders . . . ." Nationwide Mut. Ins. Co. v. Tryg Int'l Ins. Co., 91 F.3d 790, 797 (6th Cir. 1996). In this case, however, defendant appears to be well traveled throughout the world, including the United States, where he once owned a house in Florida. It seems apparent that defendant offered no defense not because of any undue hardship but rather because he had no valid defense on the merits. His effort to stand on the defense of no jurisdiction must be rejected.'

Fraud is Fraud...The case is groundbreaking in many ways including jurisdiction when foreign dealers are involved. The Neals prevailed due to the tenacious and patient actions of Tyrone Neal. The horse world is blessed to have this man champion the cause of equine dealer fraud.

I would have paid money to see the look on Janssen's face when he was finally nabbed ...ten years after the ruling!! I hope they hold him at the border now!!
What goes around comes around...AMEN!

ise@ssl
Oct. 8, 2010, 10:30 AM
I hope they involve the State Department in this so he can NEVER enter the United States again without being arrested and made to pay the money he owes. He's only one of many sheisters here in the US and many from European countries who are very clever at cheating horsepeople here in the United States. As was stated before FRAUD IS FRAUD.

But horse people MUST become better business people. How often do people buy/sell horses with no paperwork? How many buy horses where the registration papers are "missing". We NEVER buy/sell a horse without having a contract with the BUYER/SELLER directly unless the Agent has everything in writing. We tell the Trainers or Agent s - no double agency. And we do send 1099's to anyone receiving a commission directly. That sends the crooks running when they won't give a tax ID #.

Horse are coming from Europe without REgistration papers. THE PASSPORT IS NOT LEGAL OWNERSHIP. But clever overseas sheisters are selling lots of horses and only sending the Passport with them. They are keeping the papers and probably using them for other horses.

We will have to see if ANY equestrian press in this country pick up on the Sjef story. If they don't - you have to ask yourself WHY NOT?

caddym
Oct. 8, 2010, 11:32 AM
[INDENT]" I would have paid money to see the look on Janssen's face when he was finally nabbed ...ten years after the ruling!! I hope they hold him at the border now!!
What goes around comes around...AMEN!

He went back to Holland and is presently in Australia. Since he was allowed to leave the country, perhaps this case isn't as strong as it seems.

BetterOffRed
Oct. 8, 2010, 11:43 AM
He went back to Holland and is presently in Australia. Since he was allowed to leave the country, perhaps this case isn't as strong as it seems.

This is a civil suit. In the U.S. I believe he can go where ever he wants.

opel
Oct. 8, 2010, 12:29 PM
God, I'd love to name other names too. The crook-like behavior I've seen...........but. Maybe we should have a thread about HONEST horse brokers we know of.

Peace
Oct. 8, 2010, 12:56 PM
Should be a criminal case...Hope he's made to PAY with interest. Someone gots some bad Karma coming their way:winkgrin:

Dinah-do
Oct. 8, 2010, 01:26 PM
I think most owners know that the agent deal is stinky but for some reason think that it wont happen to them. Trainers befriend owners, they use their position in the horse world to their advantage and and portray a picture of being honest in a very dishonest world. They talk the talk but that' s it. Trainers claim loyalty to owners but the reality is that loyalty is to other trainers and agents. Reasoning being that owners come and go but trainers are there for ever. Has been this way for years and years. The term "good owner" translates universally into "keeps mouth shut and write checks on demand".

ise@ssl
Oct. 8, 2010, 03:21 PM
Actually BetteroffRed - he CAN be prevented from entering the USA.

netg
Oct. 8, 2010, 03:30 PM
A few facts
- Sjef Janssen is a resident of Belgium. His official address is in Belgium. He officially doesn't live with Anky
- Sjef and Anky are not officially married. A Las Vegas marriage doesn't count in Holland unless you declare it, which they didn't do. So they are not married.


Was it a legal marriage in the US? Since this is a US case, the courts aren't going to care if The Netherlands recognizes their marriage, but rather if they do.

That's a scary thing for Anky if she wants to compete in the US again if Tennessee is a community property state, I would think.

Velvet
Oct. 8, 2010, 03:34 PM
I think there are many horse buyers out there who have paid exuberant prices for their horses ...

I know I'm always "exuberant" when I buy my horses! :eek: :yes: :lol:

TheBarnRules
Oct. 8, 2010, 04:26 PM
Judgments are normally only "good" for ten years but Tennessee allows a party to file a motion to "renew" a judgment for another ten years, which plaintiffs did. On August 18, 2010, a magistrate judge issued a report and recommended that the judgment be renewed. No objections were filed and on September 15, 2010, a judge adopted the recommendation and renewed the judgment.

Plaintiffs' lawyers obviously knew he'd be around for WEG and they timed this perfectly.

BetterOffRed
Oct. 8, 2010, 04:29 PM
I know I'm always "exuberant" when I buy my horses! :eek: :yes: :lol:

Yeah, I get exorbitantly exuberant! ;)

Velvet
Oct. 8, 2010, 04:34 PM
Maybe we should have a thread about HONEST horse brokers we know of.

Well, you can try. I'm guessing the thread would be VERY short! :winkgrin:

Gallop~on~Grant
Oct. 8, 2010, 04:41 PM
We can only dream of being rich and sucked dry to the bone. Rich people problems...

carolprudm
Oct. 8, 2010, 06:32 PM
We can only dream of being rich and sucked dry to the bone. Rich people problems...

No one deserves to be cheated or stolen from

RNB
Oct. 8, 2010, 11:13 PM
God, I'd love to name other names too. The crook-like behavior I've seen...........but. Maybe we should have a thread about HONEST horse brokers we know of.

Please, name away.....people would love to know who to avoid in the industry. The good honest brokers/trainers deserve better.

SuffolkRider
Oct. 8, 2010, 11:40 PM
Now I can appreciate the advantage of being exuberantly impecunious!

Peace
Oct. 9, 2010, 09:02 AM
A few facts
- Sjef Janssen is a resident of Belgium. His official address is in Belgium. He officially doesn't live with Anky
- Sjef and Anky are not officially married. A Las Vegas marriage doesn't count in Holland unless you declare it, which they didn't do. So they are not married.

I think there are many horse buyers out there who have paid exuberant prices for their horses of which more than half is just commission fee for agents, trainers, finders, etc etc.

I think it's a pity horse dealing can't be honest, and that all these trainers, riders, even someone who just laid eyes on the horse is claiming a finder's fee and wants a cut of the cake.

This not only happened with the Neal's horse.. it happens all the time and it destroys the business for honest people who want to sell their horse... or honest buyers who think they pay a realistic price for their horse.

As soon as dealers know you are rich you get sucked dry to the bone

Astrid looks like you are being threatened...from Theo's forum.

"Like somebody wrote on a Dutch forum.
I can bring Sjef in contact with some "lawyers" from Bulgaria who are always very successful in solving these kind of problems with AA." :sadsmile:

I think it is disgusting that they would defend this man if George Morris did this I certainly wouldn't stand behind him just because he's the American coach. Some people have no morals or ethics. Theo is always complaining about this forum and Ultimate dressage forum saying they censor but the funny thing is if you don't agree with Theo you can't be on his forum..I mean the hypocrisy is priceless.

LaBonnieBon
Oct. 9, 2010, 10:00 AM
Peace wrote:
"I think it is disgusting that they would defend this man if George Morris did this I certainly wouldn't stand behind him just because he's the American coach. "



Didn't GM have a neglect lawsuit against him a few years back, where he lost and had to dissolve Hunterdon?

Velvet
Oct. 9, 2010, 10:31 AM
Didn't GM have a neglect lawsuit against him a few years back, where he lost and had to dissolve Hunterdon?

Maybe I didn't have all the details, but I did not think this was the reason he sold Hunterdon and I'd hate to have a lie being spread about the reason. Does anyone on the board know if this rumor has any truth?

Honestly, I'd heard other reasons for it that were very benign--like the fact that he wasn't there much any more and the real estate was super valuable (and the taxes were ridiculous).

Peace
Oct. 9, 2010, 11:34 AM
Peace wrote:
"I think it is disgusting that they would defend this man if George Morris did this I certainly wouldn't stand behind him just because he's the American coach. "



Didn't GM have a neglect lawsuit against him a few years back, where he lost and had to dissolve Hunterdon?

No way...any info online? Did he neglect a horse? Why would he still be our Chef/Coach???:confused:

vineyridge
Oct. 9, 2010, 11:50 AM
Well, GM definitely still believes in poling jumpers, which is illegal on show grounds. He does it in other locations.


No way...any info online? Did he neglect a horse? Why would he still be our Chef/Coach???:confused:

ise@ssl
Oct. 9, 2010, 11:52 AM
It was adjudicated in Federal District Court in Trenton NJ. 10-0 verdict against the defendants George Morris, Chris Kappler and Hunterdon Inc. Damages were settled out of court by the Insurance company.

Eye in the Sky
Oct. 9, 2010, 12:01 PM
Did it have anything to do with the poling incident in Florida (I think that's where the infamous incident occurred)?

TheBarnRules
Oct. 9, 2010, 12:09 PM
ISE: do you have a cite for the case? I can't find it.

ise@ssl
Oct. 9, 2010, 12:58 PM
Working on getting you the cite.

arnika
Oct. 9, 2010, 01:13 PM
It may have been the case where he was training with a metal pole as the rail and the horse knocked it off and was impaled. It happened down in Wellington, I believe.

TWF
Oct. 9, 2010, 01:14 PM
No way...any info online? Did he neglect a horse? Why would he still be our Chef/Coach???:confused:

Found today on COTHBB:
Advanced Search POSTS: Morris Neglect
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2872163&highlight=morris+neglect#post2872163

My case against George, Hunterdon and Chris has been cited on several threads over the years...some have been "retired". I was under oath on the stand for almost 2 days in Federal Court. It lasted 2 1/2 week but felt like forever. The case was divided into two parts..One to establish Negelct leading to the death of Grande Saber and Second to establish the monetary award.

The first part was enough to kill me. The Jury returned a Unanimous Decision - GUILTY of Neglect. I couldn't bear to go throught the second part of the trial and settled with the insurance company. I am not aware of George being out of pocket for anything during the trial. You would be amazed that I had more liability insurance than Hunterdon Inc, George and Kappler!


The USEF was notified of the case upon the verdict as Chris was nominated Horsemen of the Year 2003. The only news coverage came from the Trenton Star-Ledger although editors of equine journals were informed of the lawsuit which took several years to get to Court. This case created a tense undercurrent among trainers as there were more than a few prominent trainers holding their breaths as they followed the proceedings.


The 2 1/2 week Jury Trial was heard in Federal Court In Trenton,New Jersey presided by the most Senior Judge of the Court...the Honorable Anne E. Thompson presiding. : October 2003 Action Number 00-6258 (AET) :
The Unanimous jury verdict found George Morris, Hunterdon,Inc and Chris Kappler NEGLIGENT in the DEATH of Grande Saber.

As part of the verdict, the Judge directed Morris Hunterdon and Kappler to return Saber's equipment including his halter...that never happened.

Kappler was the 2003 Horseman of the Year.

arnika
Oct. 9, 2010, 01:18 PM
Thank you for setting the record straight, although I would imagine it is still quite painful for you to recall.

Eye in the Sky
Oct. 9, 2010, 01:37 PM
How sad. :(

And how disappointing that GM has done yet one more thing that is not very horseman-like. I will never doubt his ability to teach riders to ride, but ever since the poling incident, I have been uncomfortable with his so-called "horsemanship".

I'm tired of having the people I idolized as a kid falling flat on their faces for things like this. I'm an adult and should know better than to think a person cannot fail me, but damn it's hard when a guy like GM does it.

Peace
Oct. 9, 2010, 01:40 PM
Found today on COTHBB:
Advanced Search POSTS: Morris Neglect
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2872163&highlight=morris+neglect#post2872163

My case against George, Hunterdon and Chris has been cited on several threads over the years...some have been "retired". I was under oath on the stand for almost 2 days in Federal Court. It lasted 2 1/2 week but felt like forever. The case was divided into two parts..One to establish Negelct leading to the death of Grande Saber and Second to establish the monetary award.

The first part was enough to kill me. The Jury returned a Unanimous Decision - GUILTY of Neglect. I couldn't bear to go throught the second part of the trial and settled with the insurance company. I am not aware of George being out of pocket for anything during the trial. You would be amazed that I had more liability insurance than Hunterdon Inc, George and Kappler!


The USEF was notified of the case upon the verdict as Chris was nominated Horsemen of the Year 2003. The only news coverage came from the Trenton Star-Ledger although editors of equine journals were informed of the lawsuit which took several years to get to Court. This case created a tense undercurrent among trainers as there were more than a few prominent trainers holding their breaths as they followed the proceedings.


The 2 1/2 week Jury Trial was heard in Federal Court In Trenton,New Jersey presided by the most Senior Judge of the Court...the Honorable Anne E. Thompson presiding. : October 2003 Action Number 00-6258 (AET) :
The Unanimous jury verdict found George Morris, Hunterdon,Inc and Chris Kappler NEGLIGENT in the DEATH of Grande Saber.

As part of the verdict, the Judge directed Morris Hunterdon and Kappler to return Saber's equipment including his halter...that never happened.

Kappler was the 2003 Horseman of the Year.

I'm so sorry they didn't return your horses equipment? Remind me to never give USEF a DIME of my money. These people are sick. What did the do to your horse?

TWF
Oct. 9, 2010, 03:04 PM
Day 1
Grande Saber age 10 Shipped to Lake Placid. In the next few days he was to compete and be shown to investors for a syndication/partnership.
Saber had developed a fever while shipping and was treated for a fever of unknown origin (could not r/o infectious contagions such as Potomac Fever) Blood drawn. A number of off the label modalities were started including a variety of meds including some not used on breeding stallions. Anybody ever hear of the Red Book??? They lost it just before the trial.

He didn't show all week. He was scheduled to show the following week.

Day 5
Vet performed a tracheal culture about (w/o my knowledge) second set of labs drawn
Day 6
Saber's vitals deteriorated, gums were cyanotic,pulses diminished, he developed diarrhea. Administered about 1 liter of IV fluids/24 hours, the blood work was delayed or lost going into July 4th weekend. No clinic on site and Vet advised to ship him in the middle of the night since daytime temps were 80-85+.

Day 7
GM & company refused to ship him from the grounds of Lake Placid until they contacted us...BUT THEY HAD NEVER CONTACTED US!!

I was not advised he was ill until Sunday 11 am . The stories I was told that morning:
1. he had a "tummy ache"
2. they couldn't find anyone to ship him to a clinic.
3. He was going to the first clinic they could get...but failed to tell us they wouldn't be shipping him to nearby Saratoga and shipped him to Bedford NY instead!

Saber shipped in the mid-day heat in a van. He was lethargic and not drinking according to his attendant.

Fact:
The shipper arrived Sat PM around 8 PM and spent the night next to his stall.
Under oath: GM said he would have shipped the horse right away for "some people" he continued referring to us as "THOSE people" saying he would not have shipped the stallion for Those People before he spoke to them and got permission he was asked even if it meant his death.? even if it meant he would die? GM-"Yes"

Saber was on the truck most of that morning going much further than Saratoga in the heat of the day. Saber was seen about 4 PM after shipping to the clinic and arriving about one PM. His hematocrit (volume of packed cells) was over 75%. He was dehydrated and his veins were blown for pervious IVs.

Sunday Day 7
To this point, I was still not told how sick he was!! I only knew he had a tummy ache and we were looking at possible colic...but he was much sicker. I was consulting a few clinics to transfer him & ID his chief complaint..but Hunterdon didn't tell me he was ill the whole week!!
I spend every hour of the next 24 calling the clinic and check back with my vets ; trying to pin point the cause of his mysterious illness.

Day 8
4 PM I was finally told he was sick all week and was pumped full of all kinds of meds... 4 PM on DAY 8!!

There was no hope of saving him although we tried everything...
He lost his ability to clot (medical term is DIC - bleeding from every pore & oriface of his body ) I had to give permission to put him down..the vet had been attending 4th of July festivites and Saber had to wait. Needless death and a horrific end to this wonderful horse.

The next morning I received a call from Hunterdon telling me Saber was "better and looking like he would be getting home soon!"

My chest tightened the room began to spin, I vomited and nearly fainted... I begged the stupid caller to STOP! STOP TALKING! I handed the phone to someone and just balled my eyes out. My heart was in pieces and I was damn near insane after that! It was most insensitive and cruel thing I had ever endured.

George told us it was "Bad Luck" Saber died.

That's the short version.

Eye in the Sky
Oct. 9, 2010, 05:08 PM
Oh my goodness. That was one of the most heart-wrenching stories I have heard in regards to a horse's death. I am so sorry. I have no idea what kind of twisted mind would think to tell an owner their horse is getting better and would be home soon when clearly the horse was NOT better and was in fact WORSE! :cry:

LaBonnieBon
Oct. 9, 2010, 05:14 PM
WOW!!!!! I knew there was some neglect, but had no clue it was that horrific of an event for both you and Saber!

I am soo sorry!

BetterOffRed
Oct. 9, 2010, 05:19 PM
I am so sorry. That is the most horrible way to have a beloved animal die...and so unnecessary on their part. Thank you for sharing your story, and maybe removing some of the gloss and dazzle off of "THAT TRAINER".

ridgeback
Oct. 9, 2010, 05:43 PM
Day 1
Grande Saber age 10 Shipped to Lake Placid. In the next few days he was to compete and be shown to investors for a syndication/partnership.
Saber had developed a fever while shipping and was treated for a fever of unknown origin (could not r/o infectious contagions such as Potomac Fever) Blood drawn. A number of off the label modalities were started including a variety of meds including some not used on breeding stallions. Anybody ever hear of the Red Book??? They lost it just before the trial.

He didn't show all week. He was scheduled to show the following week.

Day 5
Vet performed a tracheal culture about (w/o my knowledge) second set of labs drawn
Day 6
Saber's vitals deteriorated, gums were cyanotic,pulses diminished, he developed diarrhea. Administered about 1 liter of IV fluids/24 hours, the blood work was delayed or lost going into July 4th weekend. No clinic on site and Vet advised to ship him in the middle of the night since daytime temps were 80-85+.

Day 7
GM & company refused to ship him from the grounds of Lake Placid until they contacted us...BUT THEY HAD NEVER CONTACTED US!!

I was not advised he was ill until Sunday 11 am . The stories I was told that morning:
1. he had a "tummy ache"
2. they couldn't find anyone to ship him to a clinic.
3. He was going to the first clinic they could get...but failed to tell us they wouldn't be shipping him to nearby Saratoga and shipped him to Bedford NY instead!

Saber shipped in the mid-day heat in a van. He was lethargic and not drinking according to his attendant.

Fact:
The shipper arrived Sat PM around 8 PM and spent the night next to his stall.
Under oath: GM said he would have shipped the horse right away for "some people" he continued referring to us as "THOSE people" saying he would not have shipped the stallion for Those People before he spoke to them and got permission he was asked even if it meant his death.? even if it meant he would die? GM-"Yes"

Saber was on the truck most of that morning going much further than Saratoga in the heat of the day. Saber was seen about 4 PM after shipping to the clinic and arriving about one PM. His hematocrit (volume of packed cells) was over 75%. He was dehydrated and his veins were blown for pervious IVs.

Sunday Day 7
To this point, I was still not told how sick he was!! I only knew he had a tummy ache and we were looking at possible colic...but he was much sicker. I was consulting a few clinics to transfer him & ID his chief complaint..but Hunterdon didn't tell me he was ill the whole week!!
I spend every hour of the next 24 calling the clinic and check back with my vets ; trying to pin point the cause of his mysterious illness.

Day 8
4 PM I was finally told he was sick all week and was pumped full of all kinds of meds... 4 PM on DAY 8!!

There was no hope of saving him although we tried everything...
He lost his ability to clot (medical term is DIC - bleeding from every pore & oriface of his body ) I had to give permission to put him down..the vet had been attending 4th of July festivites and Saber had to wait. Needless death and a horrific end to this wonderful horse.

The next morning I received a call from Hunterdon telling me Saber was "better and looking like he would be getting home soon!"

My chest tightened the room began to spin, I vomited and nearly fainted... I begged the stupid caller to STOP! STOP TALKING! I handed the phone to someone and just balled my eyes out. My heart was in pieces and I was damn near insane after that! It was most insensitive and cruel thing I had ever endured.

George told us it was "Bad Luck" Saber died.

That's the short version.

OMG... but at the same time I'm not surprised. It's time for horse owners take back the control. I am so sorry for you but I believe in Karma so good luck to you George. Your next life just might be as a horse in a bad situation. :yes:

mbm
Oct. 9, 2010, 06:29 PM
wow, sorry to hear about Sabers death.

and it really sux that someone called you and gave you an upbeat update. that must of been shocking.

i have worked at barns with many many horses and the office staff may not really know what is going on.... so while the call must of been horrid perhaps it had to do with lack of communication and not deliberate?

i also know barns that will not move a horse without express permission from the owner - so i have learned to give permission in advance.

again, i am so sorry for your loss.

mbp
Oct. 9, 2010, 08:12 PM
A lot of what is on this thread is pretty confusing, so I'm glad someone linked the original District Court opinion. Fraud is fraud, but civil fraud isn't criminal fraud. I don't do immigration and visa work, but I am totally unfamiliar with any grounds for the State Dept refusing entry to someone based on an uncollected civil judgment - what's do you base that on, ise? If he has refused to comply with a court order on proceedings supplemental (those are the after judgment actions to try to get the info you need to collect on a judgment) then that would be grounds for being denied entry or for being tossed in jail for civil contempt for that matter, but I'm surprised that an unpaid civil judgment is a grounds for state to deny entry. ?

Depositions take place in front of a court reporter where parties are represented by counsel (the Marshalls could get a statement, but not do a deposition), so Rat King's version sounds the most coherent. It looks like the original case was in federal court, not TN state court, and federal judgments usually are enforceable for 20 years (28 USC 3201) not ten (IRS judgment liens are for 10), so I'm not sure what would have been filed in TN to renew the judgement after 10 years (?) although most judgments are renewable if unsatisfied.

To the extent Anky and Sjef had joint assets in the US, then the US marriage would have been recognized with respect to claims of one spouse on the non-tenants by the entireties property they jointly owned, but judgments are usually only valid in the jurisdiction where they are given unless another jurisdiction agrees to enforcement. Within the states of the US, MOST judgements from sister states will be recognized (under full faith and credit) and a federal judgement typically has nationwide enforceability without going through that. But once you are dealing for foreign nations, you are talking about treaties and the application of their laws of ownership and creditors rights.

I am with TWF (and that's a horrible and sad story about Grand Sabre - I'm teary reading and can't imagine living it) though and think it would have been interesting to see the look on the face. Looks like someone is serious about finding out something and there's no 5th amendment type of privilege for depositions in support of proceedings supplemental, so hopefully they can get some credible collections information. Looks like the KY lawyer the plaintiffs are using is with Greenbaum Doll & McDonald, so it was a serious depo effort.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 10, 2010, 12:09 AM
TWF, that's heartbreaking. I'm speechless at the treatment you and your horse received. GM should never be allowed around a horse again. I don't care who he is.

mbm
Oct. 10, 2010, 12:23 AM
i am curious..... was GM personally handling the horse or was there a barn manager, stable hands etc? of course as the owner / manager he is ultimately responsible, but was he doing the hands on work?

maybe things are supposed to go differently at high end farms but my biggest fear is that something will happen to my horse while she is boarded and i wont be informed or no one will notice etc.

i have worked at barns - i know how it goes ....

ise@ssl
Oct. 10, 2010, 10:30 AM
mbm - Regardless who physically handled the horse - the issue is who made the decisions. And believe me the people who made the telephone call after Saber had died were not in some office somewhere - they were at the show and around the horse. I've read the depositions. This situation does beg the question of how the USEF is applying their rules and regulations and if they are being applied fairly to all members. I'm surprised individuals who have had situations that were minor compared to this and have received sanctions have not used this situation to challenge fairness. Or perhaps it just wasn't known because no equine publications reported it and the USEF took no action with the information provided to them.

With respect to Sjef - if the courts would issue a warrent for his arrest for contempt of court with hisfailure to pay the judgement - he can be arrested when he enters the US. I would hope this happens. We have enough Horse Sheisters here already - we don't need another one coming from Holland. This is not an insignificant amount of money. And while the courts would probably acknowledge a Las Vegas marriage the bigger issue is that Florida has an antiquated law going back to the time it was held by Spain that a person's "domicile" cannot be "taken". That's why so many crooks run to FL to establish residency. So if Sjef and or Anke have a home there it might be out of reach. I do hope the Neals prevail in this action. It would serve as a WAKE UP CALL to the many Horse Sheisters who do exist.

meupatdoes
Oct. 10, 2010, 10:38 AM
mbm - Regardless who physically handled the horse - the issue is who made the decisions. And believe me the people who made the telephone call after Saber had died were not in some office somewhere - they were at the show and around the horse.

Well, except for the fact that by the time they made this phone call airily informing the owner that the horse was doing better, they were nowhere near the horse, as the horse was dead in Bedford and they were up in Lake Placid "updating" the owner on its improving condition.

ise@ssl
Oct. 10, 2010, 11:08 AM
meupatdoes - I think you would understand if you consider the detailed time line and how gravely ill this horse was when he left the horse show. The fact that no phone contact was made to the owner is central to this case. While the defendants claimed they made a phone call - they left no message - not even a request to contact them. So it begs the question as to what information they based their later phone call on after the horse had died. The 10-0 decision clearly indicates there was no doubt on the part of any of the jurors. This wasn't a criminal case that required a unanimous vote. It was 10 people who ALL felt the testimony proved negligence.

RNB
Oct. 10, 2010, 11:40 AM
The 10-0 decision clearly indicates there was no doubt on the part of any of the jurors. This wasn't a criminal case that required a unanimous vote. It was 10 people who ALL felt the testimony proved negligence.

And if memory serves me correctly none of the jurors were horse people.

meupatdoes
Oct. 10, 2010, 11:52 AM
meupatdoes - I think you would understand if you consider the detailed time line and how gravely ill this horse was when he left the horse show. The fact that no phone contact was made to the owner is central to this case. While the defendants claimed they made a phone call - they left no message - not even a request to contact them. So it begs the question as to what information they based their later phone call on after the horse had died. The 10-0 decision clearly indicates there was no doubt on the part of any of the jurors. This wasn't a criminal case that required a unanimous vote. It was 10 people who ALL felt the testimony proved negligence.

I'm a little confused why you seem to think I was disagreeing with you.

Seeing how "So it begs the question as to what information they based their later phone call on after the horse had died," was exactly my point.

They were not anywhere near "around the horse."

Equibrit
Oct. 10, 2010, 11:56 AM
And if memory serves me correctly none of the jurors were horse people.

Why is that relevant ?

ise@ssl
Oct. 10, 2010, 12:37 PM
For me the relevency relates to the fact that many people who DON'T own horses or pets don't consider the fact that these animals can suffer and face a traumatic death that could have been avoided. These jurors were faced with considering the length of time, the circumstances of the horse's illness and death and the owner/breeder's lack of involvement due to the trainer's lack of contact and trauma afterwards. We should all have jurors like this if we - God forbid - have to face such a situation.

Eye in the Sky
Oct. 10, 2010, 06:00 PM
So, if I am to understand everyone responding to the GM issue, we are all in agreement that we are glad the jurors found the defendant guilty and are unhappy that GM, someone we equate with quality, was involved?

It seems there are some misunderstandings, but from each post I have read, everyone is pretty much saying they are glad the jurors found GM/Hunterdon guilty of negligence in the horse's death. I think everyone is just finding different things to focus on in their respective responses.

Or, perhaps, I have misunderstood. ;)

LaBonnieBon
Oct. 10, 2010, 08:07 PM
A few weeks ago I was at Morven Park for a lesson and a person there was trying to get me to sign up for the GM clinic.... I certainly can't wait to see her again and hand her this info!!

I am sorry this happened to TWF and to Saber. I guess I would have liked for GM to not have been involved in something like this since so many people idolize him.... but since he WAS involved I am glad he got fried. Just wish he had gotten raked over the coals more or happened to go on a date with Lorena Bobbit.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 10, 2010, 10:51 PM
Well, THAT will never happen! (The date with Lorena Bobbit, I mean...)

Calamber
Oct. 12, 2010, 08:32 AM
Astrid looks like you are being threatened...from Theo's forum.

"Like somebody wrote on a Dutch forum.
I can bring Sjef in contact with some "lawyers" from Bulgaria who are always very successful in solving these kind of problems with AA." :sadsmile:

I think it is disgusting that they would defend this man if George Morris did this I certainly wouldn't stand behind him just because he's the American coach. Some people have no morals or ethics. Theo is always complaining about this forum and Ultimate dressage forum saying they censor but the funny thing is if you don't agree with Theo you can't be on his forum..I mean the hypocrisy is priceless.

What the hell does "AA" stand for, "Advanced As&*oles"? This sounds like a thuggish threat, what nice people. wow....

Seems to me the GM case references deserve its' own thread so as not to derail this threads' important matters.

carolprudm
Oct. 12, 2010, 09:25 AM
Well, THAT will never happen! (The date with Lorena Bobbit, I mean...)
LOL, I was thinking the same thing

Equibrit
Oct. 12, 2010, 02:28 PM
GM, someone we equate with quality, was involved?


You may equate that prancing prawn with quality - some, emphatically, would not.

carolprudm
Oct. 12, 2010, 04:02 PM
What the hell does "AA" stand for, "Advanced As&*oles"? This sounds like a thuggish threat, what nice people. wow....



Astrid's last name starts with "A". I'm not sure of the spelling Arpels maybe?

TWF
Oct. 18, 2010, 07:57 PM
Thanks everyone for the posts and PMs. It took a long time to get past this ordeal.
It was the support of my friends and those from the inner circle who cared enough to inform me of the circumstances around Saber's death (you know who you are) that kept me afloat... I'm lucky enough to have Saber's son and daughters.

I know the treatment of horses in the care custody and control of others is much more careful after this trial. One small victory for the owner.

Joan Watt
formerly Tellwynd Farm

Mardi
Feb. 18, 2012, 12:55 AM
so is there any update on the Sjef Jannsen/Neal fraud case ?

CFFarm
Feb. 18, 2012, 11:16 AM
A few facts
- Sjef Janssen is a resident of Belgium. His official address is in Belgium. He officially doesn't live with Anky
- Sjef and Anky are not officially married. A Las Vegas marriage doesn't count in Holland unless you declare it, which they didn't do. So they are not married

Interesting.....Anky who probably knows this guy better than anyone made the choice not to legally tie herself to him.....hummm...says volumes to me.....

Mardi
Feb. 19, 2012, 01:50 PM
Yes I was surprised to read that too.

And also wondered if Anky's decision not to compete in Florida at January's WDM
had anything to do with Sjef and his legal trouble here, as far as re-entering the US. Although she said the horse wasn't ready, perhaps Sjef needed to stay home as well.

alicen
Feb. 19, 2012, 02:10 PM
SJ was recoverying from neurosurgery.

quietann
Feb. 19, 2012, 05:42 PM
Interesting.....Anky who probably knows this guy better than anyone made the choice not to legally tie herself to him.....hummm...says volumes to me.....

In many Scandinavian countries couples are less likely to marry, even when they have children together (which seems to motivate American couples who've been together for a long time.) The cultures do not push people as hard to get married.

In Sweden, the long-time girlfriend of Stieg Larsson, the author of the "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" books, is in protracted legal proceedings with his family over how much of his estate she should inherit, among other issues, since she and he were never legally married. The law has not caught up with the social convention, apparently.

All that aside, I agree with those who think Sjef Janssen should be arrested if he enters this country...

Mardi
Feb. 19, 2012, 09:27 PM
SJ was recoverying from neurosurgery.

yes, that's right. I remember now. Thank you.

SGray
Feb. 21, 2012, 11:48 AM
Found today on COTHBB:
Advanced Search POSTS: Morris Neglect
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2872163&highlight=morris+neglect#post2872163

My case against George, Hunterdon and Chris has been cited on several threads over the years...some have been "retired". I was under oath on the stand for almost 2 days in Federal Court. It lasted 2 1/2 week but felt like forever. The case was divided into two parts..One to establish Negelct leading to the death of Grande Saber and Second to establish the monetary award.

The first part was enough to kill me. The Jury returned a Unanimous Decision - GUILTY of Neglect. I couldn't bear to go throught the second part of the trial and settled with the insurance company. I am not aware of George being out of pocket for anything during the trial. You would be amazed that I had more liability insurance than Hunterdon Inc, George and Kappler!


The USEF was notified of the case upon the verdict as Chris was nominated Horsemen of the Year 2003. The only news coverage came from the Trenton Star-Ledger although editors of equine journals were informed of the lawsuit which took several years to get to Court. This case created a tense undercurrent among trainers as there were more than a few prominent trainers holding their breaths as they followed the proceedings.


The 2 1/2 week Jury Trial was heard in Federal Court In Trenton,New Jersey presided by the most Senior Judge of the Court...the Honorable Anne E. Thompson presiding. : October 2003 Action Number 00-6258 (AET) :
The Unanimous jury verdict found George Morris, Hunterdon,Inc and Chris Kappler NEGLIGENT in the DEATH of Grande Saber.

As part of the verdict, the Judge directed Morris Hunterdon and Kappler to return Saber's equipment including his halter...that never happened.

Kappler was the 2003 Horseman of the Year.

maybe should have been 2003 Horsekiller of the Year

Mardi
Feb. 22, 2012, 03:43 AM
It's unfortunate for USEF that at least two of their Equestrian of the Year honorees have had very public horse welfare issues in their backgrounds.
2003 - Kappler
2010 - McCutcheon (alleged horse abuse at 2010 FEI Reining Finals)

Since the membership votes for them, is that we're not informed, or looking the other way ?