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View Full Version : Totilas / Fuego - you be the judge :)



mbm
Oct. 5, 2010, 08:25 PM
ok, so i have read several folks slam Fuego for his movement that is more exaggerated that Totilas', the lack of engagement, short neck etc. Fuego looks like a park horse, but T doesn't etc.

for fun, i had created this collage - just picking some random images from the first few minutes of the test and then looking to see if i could find similar from the other horse.

i think it is pretty interesting.....

what do you think?

ps - i read that "Linda Zang, warned the top riders to watch out for this new pair in the future." (DNN)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=554315&l=1a44a832a5&id=100000097655253

(yes, i am smitten! ;) )

shea'smom
Oct. 5, 2010, 08:35 PM
can't see it!

SunflowerMeadowsFarm
Oct. 5, 2010, 08:46 PM
The link didn't work for me either, and I'm quite curious! :) I really enjoyed both horses, for different reasons obviously and I have been following everyones critique's and comparisons on here.

kwmred
Oct. 5, 2010, 08:55 PM
Not working for me either :(

SunflowerMeadowsFarm
Oct. 5, 2010, 08:56 PM
I wonder if it's because of your facebook settings? Maybe your photos are private and therefore only your friends can see them? Or maybe just a facebook glitch, I've gotten a lot of glitches lately!

mbm
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:25 PM
yikes! sorry...

try this?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=554315&l=1a44a832a5&id=100000097655253

Calvincrowe
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:49 PM
I watched both rides on video, and your stills show that both horses have amazing movement. I liked Fuego's test better than Totilas's test, it was more fluid and energetic. I think Toto has a bit of (I know, this will be viewed as blasphemy by DQs...sorry!) a "hackney pony" thing going on with his extravagant front end. Somehow, it works better on Fuego. Ok, back to my wee tiny jumping corner of the world...

Dressage_Diva333
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:03 AM
I'm so tired of hearing about this. Fuego's work was not as high quality as Totilas's, though he was more of a crowd pleaser. I will not begin to nit pick, as I'm not a judge. However, the judges scored Totilas about 10 points above Fuego... that is how it ended, and nothing will change that.

I have good and bad pictures of every horse that competed at the World Equestrian Games, and plenty of them. I do not feel the need to release them, as it won't do any good.

Good for Feugo for getting to where he did, but he was still beaten (and I think fairly so) by 4 other horses.

Personally, I liked Totilas's GPS best. Ravel was my favorite on Friday night, doesn't mean he should have won, but I really did enjoy watching Steffan's test.

netg
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:04 AM
I loved both. I loved Totilas for how precise and perfect he seemed to be, how effortless. I loved Fuego for how much fun he and his rider were having out there, and how happy and willing he was to do what asked. (To clarify, I don't think Totilas is unwilling - just that Fuego seemed to love what he was doing.)

That said, Laura's horse and Ravel are more horses I love watching just for their styles. But that's personal preference. I loved all the top horses, so after watching them stream live asked my aunt to record the tv coverage on her HD station for me. (And am annoyed Fuego wasn't shown!)

mbm
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:32 AM
Good for Feugo for getting to where he did, but he was still beaten (and I think fairly so) by 4 other horses. .

no, he wasn't beaten at all. he won the hearts of 25,000 people in the stands and who knows how many via video :)

in any case - i didnt post the pic to "nitpick" but to show how similar they are - which is amazing when you consider one is WB and one iberian!

plus i love that Linda Zang said that he will be the one to watch in the future. :)

Go Fish
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:25 AM
no, he wasn't beaten at all. he won the hearts of 25,000 people in the stands and who knows how many via video :)

in any case - i didnt post the pic to "nitpick" but to show how similar they are - which is amazing when you consider one is WB and one iberian!

plus i love that Linda Zang said that he will be the one to watch in the future. :)

Boy, some people just can't let it go, can they?

Xfactor
Oct. 6, 2010, 08:20 AM
Would it be incorrect for me (lacking knowledhe in such things) to suggest that Fuego would perhaps have been more "precise" if riders were switched?

My untrained eye saw more horse power in Fuego...more ride finesser in the Gal team.

I recall an interview with Gal which asked what he felt Totilas' advantage might be..and if I am recalling correctly, he said it was him. True that.

Horse for horse, myself I chose Fuego. Wreaks of power under control.

At those levels really is there a bad horse? please...I'd take any of them....lol

But in watching them over and over, I see Gal as just a spectacularly precise rider who has a horse able and willing to follow his lead.

In The fuego team, I see also a great rider, whose emotions perhaps amped him up and made him a little less precise, but the horse showed what he is made of nonetheless.

It's not as if the horses are doing these tests solo...so I say rider error downed the Fuego score. Then what do I know...lol

They are all amazing and deserve the credit they've earned in my book..which admittedly is barely on chapter one. ;)

siegi b.
Oct. 6, 2010, 09:04 AM
It's when you put the videos right next to each other - as Theo did on his forum - that it becomes quite apparent that "you get more dressage for your money with Toto! "

And yes, all top 4 horses were excellent, but the point of competition is to pick a winner and at the WEG it was Edward Gal and Totilas without a doubt!

So nit pick away and pick your own favorites - I have no problem with that, but recognize it also won't change the facts. :)

Bluey
Oct. 6, 2010, 09:15 AM
It's when you put the videos right next to each other - as Theo did on his forum - that it becomes quite apparent that "you get more dressage for your money with Toto! "

And yes, all top 4 horses were excellent, but the point of competition is to pick a winner and at the WEG it was Edward Gal and Totilas without a doubt!

So nit pick away and pick your own favorites - I have no problem with that, but recognize it also won't change the facts. :)

Well, stated.:yes:

Remember, the WEG is not about who WE like best, who the applause meter goes the highest, but about who IS the best that day, in that test, as per dressage rules.
The judges have spoken and with good reason behind how they scored, just as they do in any other day and test.
Simple to see, learn what is being judged and train and perform for what the test demands.;)

All there were good, that day, that test.:cool:
The placings were as they should have been, for what was being judged.:)

grayarabpony
Oct. 6, 2010, 09:20 AM
It's when you put the videos right next to each other - as Theo did on his forum - that it becomes quite apparent that "you get more dressage for your money with Toto! "

And yes, all top 4 horses were excellent, but the point of competition is to pick a winner and at the WEG it was Edward Gal and Totilas without a doubt!

So nit pick away and pick your own favorites - I have no problem with that, but recognize it also won't change the facts. :)

The "facts" are that judges currently prefer horses like Totilas, and has little to do with rules of competitive dressage.

netg
Oct. 6, 2010, 09:30 AM
Would it be incorrect for me (lacking knowledhe in such things) to suggest that Fuego would perhaps have been more "precise" if riders were switched?


Given different riders and different training, I would hazard a guess both would be very different horses. I don't know the training methods of either rider, but I'm guessing they have a specific way they train which works with some horses better than others. From what we saw in the arena, probably very different from each other... so yes, the energy levels between the two would vary greatly. I am guessing the flamboyant energy shown by Fuego's rider would not have worked well for Totilas, but that Fuego would have been a little more flat looking without his brilliance if he had a rider who were more reserved.

What makes Totilas more natural looking to me than Fuego is that he also has suspension in his movement. Huge reach which lands well in front of where it started due to air time. To me that just seems more natural - people and horses do a variety of things with their limbs while in the air, naturally.

Bluey
Oct. 6, 2010, 09:47 AM
The "facts" are that judges currently prefer horses like Totilas, and has little to do with rules of competitive dressage.

I beg to disagree.
Judges judge what is presented to them, each movement needs to be xyz technically, precise and then the rest is icing to add some marks.

When the movement is not basically correct, the marks reflect it and that is why some placed above others, nothing more or less, no "judge's preference", not at the level of correctness and precision as was clearly to see in some performances, sorry.

Jeito
Oct. 6, 2010, 09:53 AM
Boy, some people just can't let it go, can they?


No. But the internet gives them a voice. I think of these people as the Christine O'Donnell's of dressage :lol: :lol:

Bluey
Oct. 6, 2010, 10:08 AM
No. But the internet gives them a voice. I think of these people as the Christine O'Donnell's of dressage :lol: :lol:

You may find in any competition, between the spectators, some that when their man/team doesn't win, they have to find excuses, a common one "it has to be the judging".:rolleyes:

OF COURSE it is the judging, that is the idea of competing, to be judged, really, honestly.:lol:

For the competitors, they are now looking to the next show already, but not their fans, they have to dwell on every possible angle.;)

Nothing different here.:p

esdressage
Oct. 6, 2010, 11:08 AM
Well, I for one would not like to see the riders switched as one person mentioned above, just because I love the precision and power of the Gal/Totilas pair, and I enjoy the wonderful exuberance of the Munoz Diaz/Fuego pair. I think each thrives right where he's at.

From a technical standpoint, Fuego did make errors in the test, and I would have been shocked to see him scored higher. That's not to dismiss the test, which I LOVED and watched multiple times just to enjoy it over and over! I'm so thrilled that the pair came and performed with such joy, and I do think it's a test that won't be forgotten.

MysticOakRanch
Oct. 6, 2010, 11:15 AM
Love them both, but hands down winner is Totilas. Fuego is artistically very appealing, but you can't beat the quality of Toto's piaffe, passage, pirouettes, his connection is so soft and Gal rides amazing transitions. The technical quality of Toto's work is almost unbeatable - other then the extended trot, which is ONE movement. Fuego's connection quality is just not the same, and his extended walk is mediocre - no overtrack. His canter work isn't as good, except his one tempis are quite nice - I actually think that might be the one place he has an advantage over Toto, he comes more through in the tempis. Both are incredible quality horses, but of the two, Toto is (at least at that competition) the winner. Who knows what the future brings - if any of us could predict it, we wouldn't be wasting our time on a bulletin board!

asb_own_me
Oct. 6, 2010, 11:23 AM
From a technical standpoint, Fuego did make errors in the test, and I would have been shocked to see him scored higher. That's not to dismiss the test, which I LOVED and watched multiple times just to enjoy it over and over! I'm so thrilled that the pair came and performed with such joy, and I do think it's a test that won't be forgotten.

Well put.

SunflowerMeadowsFarm
Oct. 6, 2010, 11:45 AM
I would be curious to see the riders switch, just for curiousity sake, but like someone said, those riders ride those horses for a reason. I do imagine the rides would be very different and maybe not for the better as these horse and rider pairs styles fit each other so well.

Gal and Toto are clearly the winners, with their percision and the incredible execution of their movements. They just take your breath away.

However, although I believe Fuego placed according, I find his riders enthusiam so uplifting! He was just so excited and happy to be performing this test with this horse at WEG. With all the chatter about where dressage is going today, etc... it's nice to see a rider at this level, truly enjoying what him and his mount are doing! Not that I don't think most of them are that happy to be there competing, this team just really lets it show and it just makes me smile! ha!

With all that said, Ravel is by far my favorite horse and oh how I love Steffen, but I won't gush about them as this thread is about Fuego and Toto, hehe! :)

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 6, 2010, 11:58 AM
Toto has such a polished look, and has gotten bad pr for his "exuberance" with his movement.

Funny to see it turned around since it was an Iberian and an underdog, so now the "exuberance" with this horses movement is now called energy and fun.

Fickle dressage world we live in, eh?

The horse has his faults, but like before it was said, I think the rider could definately give him a cleaner test to really get on the podium (which I def think he could be very soon).

I don't think a different rider (as this one got above 80% at the weg and thats pretty damn good) would do, but I bet he will really batten down the hatches for next competition :)

I do wonder about people who need to dog on TOTO (no pun ;)), as he too is a wonderful animal with energy and crowd pleasing abilities.

Let us remember the work that he ALSO puts forth TIME AND TIME again, while the new and shiny is fun and entertaining, a horse like Toto is once in a life time with what consistancy he offers.

mbm
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:05 PM
(fuego has been around and doing that freestyle for at least 3 years.... go do a search on youtube and you can see his development over time)

esdressage
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:11 PM
Funny to see it turned around since it was an Iberian and an underdog, so now the "exuberance" with this horses movement is now called energy and fun.

But I think a big part of the point here is the obvious joy in the rider as well as the horse! I don't think the difference is just that this horse is an Iberian. It's the uniqueness of the pair.

Again, in my opinion that doesn't discount Gal and Totilas at all. Part of what is so phenomenal about them is their unique abilities as well.

I don't see why there has to be this polarization… aren't there plenty of people who enjoy the diversity of the wonderful rides we are seeing? I do.

spirithorse
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:29 PM
Leave your personal preferences behind and examine the images.

First set: Totilas behind the vertical, less fore leg extension and little hindquarter impulsion.

Second set: Totilas has thrown his left knee so high in the air that he is elevating the shoulder upward not forward.

Third set: once again this clearly shows the lack of impulsion off the hindquarter.

These were carried throughout the tests. The lack of thorough engagement of the hindquarter of Totilas demonstrates the constraint of the shoulders, which do not allow the fore leg to extend correctly.

Also, a very important factor that seems to be dismissed by the judges is that pressures on the bits of Fuego were constantly being released and then taken back....wherein Mr. Gal never released. Since the horse should appear to be doing the movements on his own, releasing demonstrates that ability.......

Both RIDERS made mistakes, the horses made none. If the descriptions contained in the rules were followed, Fuego definitely produced a better performance.

Reiter
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:53 PM
What incredible horses! Both of them! Totilas freestyle gave me goosebumps and brought tears to my eyes (not done easily ;)) and Fuego's made me grin with joy!
Can't wait to see both of them perform again!!!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:03 PM
Oh my! this guy is killing me! Where in the world does this s%$t come from?

ASB Stars
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:12 PM
It's when you put the videos right next to each other - as Theo did on his forum - that it becomes quite apparent that "you get more dressage for your money with Toto! "

And yes, all top 4 horses were excellent, but the point of competition is to pick a winner and at the WEG it was Edward Gal and Totilas without a doubt!

So nit pick away and pick your own favorites - I have no problem with that, but recognize it also won't change the facts. :)

This.

ASB Stars
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:15 PM
Leave your personal preferences behind and examine the images.

First set: Totilas behind the vertical, less fore leg extension and little hindquarter impulsion.

Second set: Totilas has thrown his left knee so high in the air that he is elevating the shoulder upward not forward.

Third set: once again this clearly shows the lack of impulsion off the hindquarter.

These were carried throughout the tests. The lack of thorough engagement of the hindquarter of Totilas demonstrates the constraint of the shoulders, which do not allow the fore leg to extend correctly.

Also, a very important factor that seems to be dismissed by the judges is that pressures on the bits of Fuego were constantly being released and then taken back....wherein Mr. Gal never released. Since the horse should appear to be doing the movements on his own, releasing demonstrates that ability.......

Both RIDERS made mistakes, the horses made none. If the descriptions contained in the rules were followed, Fuego definitely produced a better performance.

I want a pair of his glasses, and whatever he is smokin'. I probably won't get around to using it. I just want it.

netg
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:37 PM
But I think a big part of the point here is the obvious joy in the rider as well as the horse! I don't think the difference is just that this horse is an Iberian. It's the uniqueness of the pair.

Again, in my opinion that doesn't discount Gal and Totilas at all. Part of what is so phenomenal about them is their unique abilities as well.

I don't see why there has to be this polarization… aren't there plenty of people who enjoy the diversity of the wonderful rides we are seeing? I do.

I agree with all your posts on this thread.

I just thought this needed special emphasis. We dressage folks go out and take ourselves so seriously - seeing a rider with so much sheer joy and wonder on his face helped me shift my attitude.

I love both horses. Having a different preference doesn't discount from the quality either of these horses have. I was thrilled to watch the rides live online, and look forward to getting to watch them recorded on a large HDTV tonight (thank you family members willing to humor me!), and am only sad Fuego's ride won't be on there.

I'm more excited about dressage than I have been for a long time, and the fact the top horses (who I think placed properly despite my completely inexpert eye) were all so different was awesome to me. Rules are so specific about what horses are supposed to do, I absolutely love that horses of varied styles are out there competing successfully. I don't think every person should have to have the lighter, forward-thinking type of ride I most enjoy, and that seeing so many great horses in one place is amazing.

Regardless of the differences between them, or my personal preferences, I feel lucky to be watching what's happening at the top with dressage right now.

ginger708
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:48 PM
Leave your personal preferences behind and examine the images.

First set: Totilas behind the vertical, less fore leg extension and little hindquarter impulsion.

Second set: Totilas has thrown his left knee so high in the air that he is elevating the shoulder upward not forward.

Third set: once again this clearly shows the lack of impulsion off the hindquarter.

These were carried throughout the tests. The lack of thorough engagement of the hindquarter of Totilas demonstrates the constraint of the shoulders, which do not allow the fore leg to extend correctly.

Also, a very important factor that seems to be dismissed by the judges is that pressures on the bits of Fuego were constantly being released and then taken back....wherein Mr. Gal never released. Since the horse should appear to be doing the movements on his own, releasing demonstrates that ability.......

Both RIDERS made mistakes, the horses made none. If the descriptions contained in the rules were followed, Fuego definitely produced a better performance.

http://www.hartetoharte.org/Pure_Classic_Dressage_complete.pdf

Picture on page 8. Could you please explain this picture and how this seat is expectable in any form of riding. And if this is you of one of your students, where do you get off judging other people.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:56 PM
Oh, Ginger, that's The Master Hisself!

Isn't he WONDERFUL?

Thanks for sharing that internet treasure!

ToN Farm
Oct. 6, 2010, 02:00 PM
All the laughing at that photo over the years, and he stills keeps it up on his site. He must like it.

ginger708
Oct. 6, 2010, 02:01 PM
Well it was either that or explaining impulsion to him.:sadsmile:

ThreeFigs
Oct. 6, 2010, 02:05 PM
Oh, and that guy in the photo on the last page -- that's NOT one of The Reverend's students.

You'd think he'd have enough self-awareness to look at photos of HIS riding and compare them to the photos of the SRS guy -- and get a clue?

I'm wiping tears from my eyes. It's not only Toto and Fuego that can make me weep. For different reasons, of course.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:52 PM
" Its not a lie, if you believe it."
George Castanza from Seinfeld

kwmred
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:53 PM
I agree with all your posts on this thread.

I just thought this needed special emphasis. We dressage folks go out and take ourselves so seriously - seeing a rider with so much sheer joy and wonder on his face helped me shift my attitude.

I love both horses. Having a different preference doesn't discount from the quality either of these horses have. I was thrilled to watch the rides live online, and look forward to getting to watch them recorded on a large HDTV tonight (thank you family members willing to humor me!), and am only sad Fuego's ride won't be on there.

I'm more excited about dressage than I have been for a long time, and the fact the top horses (who I think placed properly despite my completely inexpert eye) were all so different was awesome to me. Rules are so specific about what horses are supposed to do, I absolutely love that horses of varied styles are out there competing successfully. I don't think every person should have to have the lighter, forward-thinking type of ride I most enjoy, and that seeing so many great horses in one place is amazing.

Regardless of the differences between them, or my personal preferences, I feel lucky to be watching what's happening at the top with dressage right now.

We really need "Thank You" buttons on this forum! I love this post and others like it. I love both horses and hope to see much more from them in the future!

candico
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:53 PM
Remember, Fuego has two years on Toto. In two years, Edward could do the entire FS blind folded with his hands tied behind his back - while riding backwards of course...
I'm surprised not more discussion has been brought up between Dablino and Toto since they are the same age and are the epitome of the two "schools" at odds. I believe Dablino has an advantage in basic gaits where Toto is not as nervous in general so I think it is a fairly equal comparison of how the two training methods are progressing.
I think it is interesting how so much emphasis is put on how young Dablino is and how smart it is to keep the choreography simple and the music not too dramatic until the horse is more seasoned, but Toto doesn't get much sympathy for his youth it seems.
It will be interesting to see how much these two make improvements before the Olympics when they are twelve. I'd like to see score comparisons on the movements they do equally well to see what the judges' impressions are of Dablino's more open frame. I also see that even with Balkenhol's more classical training methods it is difficult to keep the poll the highest at all times so maybe there does need to be a look at a rule change because I do see sometimes if you ride for getting the poll up at all times, you can loose the elasticity and I find some horses even get a bit uneven and awkward despite this to be the ideal.
But that's not this thread... Anyway, it would be nice to stop dissecting stills since I know of several horses that can take absolutely picture perfect gorgeous stills - see Stallion issues - and when you get the video later it's like "huh?" The only slo mo comparison I'd love to see is how much air Toto and Fuego get between passage steps because that truly shows how much more powerful both hind engines are than those park horses.

Sabine
Oct. 6, 2010, 04:42 PM
I love both- Toto and Fuego- the latter being an exceptional example of his breed. I thought the photos side by side were charming and prefer to not judge the finite quality of each ride- let it be said that they both performed at a very high quality and that the rides were magical to watch and superbly enjoyable.

The real accomplishment in all this is that it shows relatively short coupled, curvy horses with amazing movement and tenacity- dancing as if they were born to do so....!

MistyBlue
Oct. 6, 2010, 05:18 PM
The real accomplishment in all this is that it shows relatively short coupled, curvy horses with amazing movement and tenacity- dancing as if they were born to do so....!

Dressage isn't my thing really...but Andalusians kind of really are born to do this. :winkgrin: At least I thought they were.

They're both lovely to watch. IMPO, I prefer the movement and ease of performance watching a Baroque do what it's been very selectively bred for...for quite a few generations longer than WBs. It's a personal preference thing though I guess. Looks a lot easier (for the horse) when a Baroque horse does it to me.
Although Totilas is definitely a one in a million mover. :yes:

Bluey
Oct. 6, 2010, 05:35 PM
Dressage isn't my thing really...but Andalusians kind of really are born to do this. :winkgrin: At least I thought they were.

They're both lovely to watch. IMPO, I prefer the movement and ease of performance watching a Baroque do what it's been very selectively bred for...for quite a few generations longer than WBs. It's a personal preference thing though I guess. Looks a lot easier (for the horse) when a Baroque horse does it to me.
Although Totilas is definitely a one in a million mover. :yes:

I don't quite agree, andalusians are born for high school demonstrations, not for dressage.
They generally are a little short in their talent for true extensions, other than the rare one, as Fuego.

That is why you don't see that many truly baroque horses at the top, they are a little bit one sided.

The qualities needed for extreme collection and extensions are antagonistic, very rare to find them in one individual fully expressed, of any breed.
The baroque breeds were bred to be very good at one extreme, andalusians and lippizzaners and other such.

Today breeders are trying for more all arounders, closer to what warmblood breeders have been breeding for so long now, but the original baroque breeders were not.

bort84
Oct. 6, 2010, 06:36 PM
Hmm, interesting...

I have to say that as neat as it was to watch Fuego's test, there is no doubt Totilas was the winner that day. Whether you like Totilas or not, there's really no arguing that Fuego could have beat him with that particular test... (I did watch the video on Theo's site, nice comparison).

To my eye, Fuego lacks the relaxation and fluidity that Totilas has. They are both a bit short in the neck and both have extravagant motion. However, I think Totilas is just a more relaxed type of horse, and consequently, is able to hold it together throughout the entire test while looking happier doing it. I do wish both horses showed a bit more freedom in the neck during extensions and a little more emphasis on poll high, but that is fairly prevalent these days (many of the top horses are in a similar boat).

Fuego had more than one angry tail moment and a few hind end pop ups because of his exuberence - he just appears to be the hotter horse who may be a little harder to keep cool and consistent. Also, his walk was not nearly as good - it looked very similar to a lot of hot saddlebreds I've ridden who REALLY would rather be doing fast fun stuff than doing that slow, 4-beat walk crap, haha. His rider kind of had the same look I'm pretty sure I've had in similar situations, "Come on you sucker, please just hold it together. Just a few more steps. You can do it. Come on. Just keeeeeep walking. We're nearly there." All with as passive a face as you can manage for the judges, haha.

Anyway, I think that's a very neat pair, and it is nice to see such enthusiasm (and some non-warmbloods in the mix). However, no way was he the better horse that day than Totilas...

Bats79
Oct. 6, 2010, 07:35 PM
But I think a big part of the point here is the obvious joy in the rider as well as the horse! I don't think the difference is just that this horse is an Iberian. It's the uniqueness of the pair.

Again, in my opinion that doesn't discount Gal and Totilas at all. Part of what is so phenomenal about them is their unique abilities as well.

I don't see why there has to be this polarization… aren't there plenty of people who enjoy the diversity of the wonderful rides we are seeing? I do.

The trust that Diaz has in Fuego is also obvious. He takes the risks, gives the hand, allows the horse to throw in his all.

Totilas is much more my sort of horse and the deserved winner but I prefer the way Diaz presents his horse.

But as said - over the next few years Gal might finally let Totilas off the rein a bit so he can really give it his best with his hindleg instead of just his front.

Bats79
Oct. 6, 2010, 07:41 PM
It's when you put the videos right next to each other - as Theo did on his forum - that it becomes quite apparent that "you get more dressage for your money with Toto! "

And yes, all top 4 horses were excellent, but the point of competition is to pick a winner and at the WEG it was Edward Gal and Totilas without a doubt!

So nit pick away and pick your own favorites - I have no problem with that, but recognize it also won't change the facts. :)

You are just as biased as anyone. It is alright for Theo to do a comparison because (naturally) it comes out in Totilas's favour - but if anyone else does one they are nit picking.

asb_own_me
Oct. 6, 2010, 08:03 PM
The trust that Diaz has in Fuego is also obvious. He takes the risks, gives the hand, allows the horse to throw in his all.

Totilas is much more my sort of horse and the deserved winner but I prefer the way Diaz presents his horse.

Agreed. As "netg" said, "seeing a rider with so much sheer joy and wonder on his face helped me shift my attitude"


But as said - over the next few years Gal might finally let Totilas off the rein a bit so he can really give it his best with his hindleg instead of just his front.

I can't wait to see that!!!

riderboy
Oct. 6, 2010, 09:02 PM
I can offer perhaps a little different perspective. I'm an eventer but was very much looking forward to the musical freestyle, particularly after watching the Grand Prix Special which I thought was excellent. I think the musical freestyle is a great way to show the general public just how exciting dressage CAN be. A la Blue Hors Matine. (sp?) For the most part, I found the musical freestyle boring. The horses looked quite tired. The music just seemed tepid and uninspiring. Bechtolheimers music in particular was almost anesthetizing. And then, there was Fuego. Perhaps not technically as correct as Totilas, but I would think in a musical freestyle artistry, artistic impression and PASSION would be weighted very heavily. Score the technical stuff elsewhere. It was obvious to anyone there that Fuego and Juan caught that crowd on fire! I would think, just my non-dressage 2 cents worth, that if you want the public to recognize and appreciate the beauty of dressage, you first have to get them to the show. I would go see Fuego in a heartbeat. The rest of them yes, if I had nothing better to do.

Reddfox
Oct. 6, 2010, 10:54 PM
I don't quite agree, andalusians are born for high school demonstrations, not for dressage.


Not so sure I agree with this part of your post. The aim of dressage was/is to collect the horse - something that the baroque breeds do exceptionally well. Those high school demonstrations are possible only through correct collection. It just so happens that piaffe and passage became the end all in the competition ring and the tests call for more longitudinal suppleness and expression than a baroque or iberian breed can bring in comparison to the modern warmbloods of today.

And before I get flamed, I am not a Toto-hater, or a krazy klassicalist. In fact I agree with the rest of your post - it's just that the thought of those high school demonstrations not being considered dressage strikes me as not quite right. I mean, if not the epitomy of dressage, then what are those high school movements? Just tricks?

Bluey
Oct. 7, 2010, 12:45 AM
Not so sure I agree with this part of your post. The aim of dressage was/is to collect the horse - something that the baroque breeds do exceptionally well. Those high school demonstrations are possible only through correct collection. It just so happens that piaffe and passage became the end all in the competition ring and the tests call for more longitudinal suppleness and expression than a baroque or iberian breed can bring in comparison to the modern warmbloods of today.

And before I get flamed, I am not a Toto-hater, or a krazy klassicalist. In fact I agree with the rest of your post - it's just that the thought of those high school demonstrations not being considered dressage strikes me as not quite right. I mean, if not the epitomy of dressage, then what are those high school movements? Just tricks?

Good question, let me rephrase what I mean better.
Dressage evolved from the basic of ultimate collection, as the baroque horses provided for centuries, to a more modern set of skills being tested, that went past that collection extreme, adding some extension and more forward gaits.
I don't know why that was so, maybe the modern military demands brought those ideas.
The results were that truly baroque horses found themselves a bit hindered, when now they were asked to do something they were not bred for.
The andalusians kept training for their high school movements, the SRS for theirs, as they were best at that.

Seems that today's breeders of those type horses are trying to add some more reach to their lines and I think Fuego may be that more modern type horse, or maybe he is the exception.
In general, I would not think many of the old type andalusians would be that competitive for all that dressage tests for today at the higher levels, just as a generic TB would not be, short of Keen.

It will be interesting to see how many will now flock to andalusians thinking that will be their ticket to better scores.:yes:

Go Fish
Oct. 7, 2010, 12:49 AM
Oh, Ginger, that's The Master Hisself!

Isn't he WONDERFUL?

Thanks for sharing that internet treasure!

Oh, my! :eek:

Go Fish
Oct. 7, 2010, 12:55 AM
Fuego XII is the bridge between warmbloods and baroque horses. But like the Frisian horses they still have to win the heart of the judges.



It's interesting to hear you say that. When I watched Fuego go, I thought WB or WB cross. He didn't look all that Iberian or "baroque-y" to me. I mean, parts of him did, but certainly not like a lot of the older style Iberian horses. Just sayin...

siegi b.
Oct. 7, 2010, 10:26 AM
You are just as biased as anyone. It is alright for Theo to do a comparison because (naturally) it comes out in Totilas's favour - but if anyone else does one they are nit picking.

If you think that showing side-by-side videos of horses doing the freestyle can be manipulated to "naturally come out in Totilas' favour" then I guess I'm biased. :lol: