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View Full Version : Are FEI rules being broken ? Judge for yourself



AZ Native
Oct. 3, 2010, 12:52 PM
These are still shots of Totilas :

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas

Don't kill the messenger. I put this up so people could come to their own conclusion.

Coreene
Oct. 3, 2010, 01:02 PM
Because obviously still photos on the internet count for so much more than FEI stewards who were present the entire time. :dead:

alicen
Oct. 3, 2010, 01:36 PM
Your still shots aren't opening. Since when do we judge dressage horses by still photos?

hoopoe
Oct. 3, 2010, 01:38 PM
oh god just shoot me now

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Oct. 3, 2010, 01:43 PM
Keep grinding that ax! Soon there will be none of it left.

VanEq
Oct. 3, 2010, 01:46 PM
This-- both the article and the OP-- are some of the most ridiculously smug things I've ever read.

horsepoor
Oct. 3, 2010, 02:13 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I really don't get it. Why is this so important to people (trashing whoever ... Totilas/Gal today, someone else tomorrow)? So much effort, and I just don't understand why.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 3, 2010, 02:31 PM
I hear ya, Horsepoor!

I've got a horse to ride. No time to trash the BNR's.

SisterToSoreFoot
Oct. 3, 2010, 02:50 PM
Given the pictures on that site, can we say DAP?

Most experts, Hilda Gurney included, see DAP as a desirable trait in dressage. It does not indicate a "four beat trot," whatever that is. Educate yourself and at least use the terms that show you have an education in dressage. It's one thing to argue that DAP isn't desirable. It's quite another to mislabel it as a "4 beat trot"--a term obviously meant to sensationalize.

candico
Oct. 3, 2010, 03:39 PM
I wonder if the top riders have some sort of pass the torch/drinking game for when they become the target of the witch hunt. Like the Germans thank Anky for the attention taken away from the "crank and spank". Anky has to thank Edward for proving LDR horses can halt, but can't extend. Edward has to thank Adelinda for proving LDR horses can extend the trot, but will bite their tongue at the halt. Then Imke is getting some flack for her horse swishing her tail and being out behind - puhleeze!! Because she uses LDR. So maybe they have to buy each other champagne. That poor Dutch team must all be alcoholics by now... And the judges get some booze too because they might as well because they don't know what they are looking at... And we all have a beer because the white horse was so much fun!!

dwblover
Oct. 3, 2010, 03:40 PM
That page is absolutely ridiculous. To whoever made that, I say get a life!

Beentheredonethat
Oct. 3, 2010, 03:53 PM
AZ Native--You posted that on the thread I started, too. It STILL doesn't make any sense. Why are you posting it again?

Sister--You're becoming a favorite of mine. Facts! Can you imagine?

xQHDQ
Oct. 3, 2010, 04:01 PM
To the OP: did you read the Dressage Today article that came out a couple of months ago that discussed this very issue by Dr. Hillary Clayton (Sorry I can't pinpoint the issue)? She took slow shot videos that showed these very same things as examples of what judges view as good gaits. Her conclusions were that good gaits are not what we have written down as good gaits and that it is the overall harmony that judges are seeing and scoring.

betonbill
Oct. 3, 2010, 04:14 PM
I guess it all boils down to this: When someone comes out and rides their version of a "correct" test (as opposed to Toto's oh so horrible test) and gets over 90% on it, then I'll listen to you. Until then, I'll just enjoy Toto and his oh so incorrect tests.

AZ Native
Oct. 3, 2010, 05:50 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. I see that the opinion here is :

That the photos taken from the video at the top of the linked page are examples of a well balanced horse with 3 good, naturally enhanced gaits and that the person commenting on the photos does not know what they are talking about and completely wrong in their observations. I have no idea who wrote the comments but i should be shot at sunrise for asking the question and posting the link :D:lol: and i'm smug which is a hoot, btw.
Too, apparently you all think the FEI rules are being followed and this is a good example of correct classical dressage and the judges are rewarding appropriately. Great !:)

Unprovoked92
Oct. 3, 2010, 06:36 PM
I don't understand why the website makes it sound like a bad thing that he is so rocked back and sitting down on his hocks in movements. That's something I strive to achieve it dressage. And Hillary Clayton has written nurmerous articles about the way dressage horses move. To me all the "inconsistancies" are positive. For instance my haflinger gets 4 beat-y in the canter when I really push him under but it's 4 beat like a gallop not like a "tranter". The judges love his canter.
If you are going to make arguements at least make intelligent ones.
Btw I like Totilas but he is not the end all be all dressage horse. But he is damn nice.

TemJeito
Oct. 3, 2010, 06:41 PM
What a nasty mean-spirited horrid website :o As someone said, why put so much time and effort into trashing others? As someone else said, get a life please!!!!

caddym
Oct. 3, 2010, 06:47 PM
What a nasty mean-spirited horrid website :o As someone said, why put so much time and effort into trashing others? As someone else said, get a life please!!!!

well said discobold

Sannois
Oct. 3, 2010, 07:29 PM
But the anouncer at the Freestyle says the Dressage world considers him the horse of the century. ~Sigh~ I liked Ravel better. But truth be told, I did not see one test that was jaw dropping blow me away. Again, just an opinion. ;)

CityLights09
Oct. 3, 2010, 07:49 PM
I am no dressage expert, but sporadic stills do not prove anything about the horse's general gait. Not to mention a lot of the comments next to those photos are plain wrong, for example the still of the changes stating he is placing his back legs down together in the same spot is clearly wrong, both legs are in the air as he is in the middle of switching the lead. And some of the trotting ones showing his "one-leg" stand, upon closer inspection, do not show what the commentator says.

alibi_18
Oct. 3, 2010, 08:09 PM
I will add that I really really liked the 'good exemple' of what a 'dressage' canter should look like....(poor girl who's been dragged into that! )
but that picture is showing an un-collected, not engaged, kinda sloppy happy canter...would have probably get a 7 at training level...and the girl is smiling!

So my analysis of the situation? Edward Gal should smile more!
(he has plenty of reasons to do so!)

shea'smom
Oct. 3, 2010, 08:16 PM
what a stupid waste of time. Ridiculous comments that are not even supported by the pictures. I want that 60 seconds of my life back.

CHT
Oct. 3, 2010, 08:28 PM
I do not think it is anything to do with Rules being broken, so poor choice of title, but I do think that what the rules list as ideals are not completely correct/realistic/reality based. Many Grand Prix horses do not have a true two beat trot when extending. They do still win. Is this faulting training? Poor breeding? or just the reality of the mechanics needed to do the impressive gaits?

I am thinking the latter.

And I think dressage should be about training the horse and showcasing the horse to the best of its ability, and that we should accept some differences in the outcomes based on the horses build and ability. We should not all be striving for some cookie cutter ideal as laid out in some rule book based on writings that originated before such thing as still shots.

Auventera Two
Oct. 3, 2010, 08:52 PM
I watched the test and thought the horse is a lovely athlete who is fun to watch, very talented, and stunningly gorgeous. However, his movement is not what I prefer - it seems so apliancy and saddlebred'y to me. His front end looks like he's been in rubber training bungees and pastern chains and weights. Hind end does not match the flashy front legs. For a minute he reminded me a little too much of a big lick walking horse. (And no, I'm not agreeing with the OP and the still shots posted. I think that site is very misleading and over-dramatized. But I did get a "gaited feel" from him. I also didn't understand the horse of the century comment. Because he can flip his canons up to the horizontal?

I understand that his 91% ride is what is winning on the world level at this moment in time, and I'm not claiming to know more than 5 FEI judges. It's just my opinion and I much preferred the movement of the other top horses.

whbar158
Oct. 3, 2010, 09:07 PM
Still shots can be misleading sometimes, I have pictures of my horse jumping, in the picture everything looks perfect but really he chipped in and crumbled on the other sides, but don't worry his knees were perfect in the middle! I have also seen other pictures where in person the jump looked perfectly fine, but the picture shows something awkward.

While there is some truth in a picture doesn't lie (ie obviously the horse isn't hitting the ground perfectly, it can be so close that it doesn't matter) If the eye can not tell that the horse isn't hitting the ground with the feet at the same time then it really doesn't matter, because it is what we can see with our eyes in real time that matters.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 3, 2010, 10:06 PM
Whbar158, excellent post!

I don't know when DAP was "invented" or "discovered", but my guess it became clear with the advent of good quality high-speed photography and the ability to stop motion and study film frame by frame. The trot that we've thought of as a clear "two-beat" for centuries isn't quite what it seems. Especially when the trot is judged to be high quality when seen with the naked & unaided eye.

When a horse exhibits "negative DAP" -- that is, the front of the diagonal pair hits the ground first, the quality of the trot as seen by the naked & unaided eye is judged to be poor. Probably looks heavy on the forehand or something.

stoicfish
Oct. 4, 2010, 12:37 AM
Whbar158, excellent post!

I don't know when DAP was "invented" or "discovered", but my guess it became clear with the advent of good quality high-speed photography and the ability to stop motion and study film frame by frame. The trot that we've thought of as a clear "two-beat" for centuries isn't quite what it seems. Especially when the trot is judged to be high quality when seen with the naked & unaided eye.

When a horse exhibits "negative DAP" -- that is, the front of the diagonal pair hits the ground first, the quality of the trot as seen by the naked & unaided eye is judged to be poor. Probably looks heavy on the forehand or something.

http://www.ridingart.com/dap.htm
Apparently it can be detected by listening.
While I don't care about the actual "legality" of it all, I do appreciate learning a little more about the mechanics of how a horse can move. It would not be something I would readily pick up on without it being pointed out.

ladyguinevere
Oct. 4, 2010, 01:14 AM
Ugh, the contents of the OP's link is really offending. It was written by someone who is seriously grasping at straws. It really makes my blood boil. IMO, many comments crossed the line, severely.

carolprudm
Oct. 4, 2010, 09:16 AM
Whbar158, excellent post!

I don't know when DAP was "invented" or "discovered", but my guess it became clear with the advent of good quality high-speed photography and the ability to stop motion and study film frame by frame. The trot that we've thought of as a clear "two-beat" for centuries isn't quite what it seems. Especially when the trot is judged to be high quality when seen with the naked & unaided eye.



I suspect the "positive DAP" with the hind hoof landing first allows the extra "expression" of the front legs.

This is something that is being rewarded and bred for, but is it desirable? If breeders trainers and riders continue to seek out more and more DAP will we end up with four gaited horses? Will the auction catalogs and stallion ads of the future include a DAP score?

It would be interesting to see if the less flashy superstars of a few years back like Ahlerich exhibited DAP.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 4, 2010, 10:59 AM
I think DAP has always been with us, we just weren't aware of it.

I see it as a positive thing. We want athletic equine partners. There are many ways to define what's athletic. IMO, DAP is only one marker.

ridgeback
Oct. 4, 2010, 11:15 AM
What is wrong with these photos..can anyone say jealous?:lol::lol:

stoicfish
Oct. 4, 2010, 11:16 AM
The pony club diagrams were a basic tool, but this is the advanced version of how a horse actually moves. Like I said it is rather interesting when considering biomechanics.
As far as being insulted by the authors intent behind the linked paged...I bet Mr.Gal already knew and Totilas ony surfs the web for mares and new saddles. To really be insulting, a comment has to hold some value, and beyond being interesting for learning how that really good horse moves, it lacks a point.

dags
Oct. 4, 2010, 11:39 AM
I wandered over here to find correct spelling for Totilas (to make an obligatory OMG I WANT!!11! FB post), as HJ is inevitably already open somewhere, and I figured he'd be up on page 1 in Dressage somewhere. You did not disappoint.

But this was a bit shocking.

I do not know the intricacies of upper level dressage (and "DAP" has me totally stumped?) but I like to think I understand what makes a great horse, and have a higher than average appreciation of engagement and balance. Totilas had me drooling- not only because his type was immediately appealing to my personal tastes, but in comparison to what I had already watched.

And good grief, the dressage horses seemed ginormous after the reiners!

The big chestnut with socks, believe got the bronze? He was so big and his rider was so petite (forgive me for not knowing any of the players) - I felt there was some serious struggling, serious muscling to hold that team together. Could especially be seen at the changes/tempis. Now, was this my widescreen tv distortion, or is that horse not incredibly long backed? The horse had some incredible moments, and that chrome really impresses when he sticks the movements, but at times it seemed such an obvious struggle for that little rider to get behind that hind end, and I was a little surprised it medaled. But what do I know? I was watching to learn, and would have really liked to have seen more tests to actually understand how the horses were scoring.

So out of the few I watched, Totilas seemed to produce the movements with the most ease, and to me they were beautiful. Ravel was lovely, but again I got the impression that there was so much back that at times, it was hard to keep the engine going. Still a lovely horse and an impressive test, and I understood it medaling.

So, my rookie question - is long backed favored in dressage? Is this a trend or long established diversion from the shorter backed baroque breeds?

And I'll take a stab at an educated guess on the images in the link, following along the same 'length of back' lines. This backward tilt that is so appalling to the commentator, could this be a result of a shorter back in Totilas? Is it somewhat of an optical illusion? If you take two horizontal planes of differing lengths, and raise their "front ends" 10 degrees, won't the shorter one be noticeably steeper? Isn't a 10 degree incline over a mile less noticeable then a 10 degree incline over a quarter mile?

suzy
Oct. 4, 2010, 01:22 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. I see that the opinion here is :

That the photos taken from the video at the top of the linked page are examples of a well balanced horse with 3 good, naturally enhanced gaits and that the person commenting on the photos does not know what they are talking about and completely wrong in their observations. I have no idea who wrote the comments but i should be shot at sunrise for asking the question and posting the link :D:lol: and i'm smug which is a hoot, btw.
Too, apparently you all think the FEI rules are being followed and this is a good example of correct classical dressage and the judges are rewarding appropriately. Great !:)

Still photos are very misleading. Many of these photos were taken at odd moments. I find it interesting that the person who posted these pictures did not choose to post any pictures that were well timed. I have a guess as to who put this together, and she has been a long-time, avid Anky-basher. I'm starting to think she may have a thing against the Dutch in general.

I think what disturbs most of us is how incredibly nasty and mean-spirited that site is. Why would you post such a thing?

mickeydoodle
Oct. 4, 2010, 01:25 PM
What a stupid set of photos. All the OP does is prove that DAP exists- and that Hilda Gurney is right, it is a positive trait in a dressage horse. The shuffly little scrubs on their web site will never have it, no matter what majical barefoot trimming does.

suzy
Oct. 4, 2010, 01:30 PM
I I also didn't understand the horse of the century comment. Because he can flip his canons up to the horizontal?



I think this is why some people are misinterpreting the scoring. It isn't the flashy trot that the judges are rewarding. It's a cominbation of a number of things: the engagement, self carriage, willingness, flexibility, adjustability, ease of performing the most difficult movements and so on that are pulling down the big scores. And then there is the wonderful partnership Gal has with Toto. I agree that the trot is a bit over-exaggerated, but there is so much more to absolutely love about that pair.

betonbill
Oct. 4, 2010, 02:46 PM
Didn't his sire also have extravagent movement? I sort of remember seeing a video of him somewhere along the line.

OneGrayPony
Oct. 4, 2010, 02:59 PM
No, in fact, his sire did not. He didn't either, until recently.

Here is Totilas in 2005 as a 5 year old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbpiL2arT4A

Then in 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eet-Vbg-YJ4

And of course, in 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02PDd96Rg2s&feature=related

It's interesting to watch the progression. His sire moved similarly to the first video - I watched one this morning, but will have to look through my history to find it again :) I'm stuck inside due to the rain and totally bored witless :)

pattir7
Oct. 4, 2010, 03:04 PM
Wow.. I'm not even a 'Totilas fan' and that was just 'over the top' ridiculous. If you are strictly looking at photos and trying to see Totilas 'worst moments'.. these are not it. :no: Not by a longshot...

amastrike
Oct. 4, 2010, 03:05 PM
Personally, I don't find his movement (especially the extended trot) at all attractive. He's a nice enough horse, but I don't understand people drooling over him. Then again, what do I know? If someone wanted to give him to me, I'd take him, but that's the extent of my interest in Totilas.

ETA: I watched a little bit of the 2005 test, and I found his movement MUCH more attractive.

nickers@dawn
Oct. 4, 2010, 03:17 PM
I find Totilas' movement as a 5 year old more appealing, natural and free. I just prefer that over his semi-artificial look of now. The horse is brilliant though, you can't say he isn't one of the best. I just don't like the leg flipping. It looks as if he has learned the spanish walk, but in trot.

OneGrayPony
Oct. 4, 2010, 03:21 PM
Found it! Here's Gribaldi, his sire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSX_7fXvUk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSX_7fXvUk)

SueL
Oct. 4, 2010, 03:42 PM
I wandered over here to find correct spelling for Totilas (to make an obligatory OMG I WANT!!11! FB post), as HJ is inevitably already open somewhere, and I figured he'd be up on page 1 in Dressage somewhere. You did not disappoint.

But this was a bit shocking.

I do not know the intricacies of upper level dressage (and "DAP" has me totally stumped?) but I like to think I understand what makes a great horse, and have a higher than average appreciation of engagement and balance. Totilas had me drooling- not only because his type was immediately appealing to my personal tastes, but in comparison to what I had already watched.

And good grief, the dressage horses seemed ginormous after the reiners!

The big chestnut with socks, believe got the bronze? He was so big and his rider was so petite (forgive me for not knowing any of the players) - I felt there was some serious struggling, serious muscling to hold that team together. Could especially be seen at the changes/tempis. Now, was this my widescreen tv distortion, or is that horse not incredibly long backed? The horse had some incredible moments, and that chrome really impresses when he sticks the movements, but at times it seemed such an obvious struggle for that little rider to get behind that hind end, and I was a little surprised it medaled. But what do I know? I was watching to learn, and would have really liked to have seen more tests to actually understand how the horses were scoring.

So out of the few I watched, Totilas seemed to produce the movements with the most ease, and to me they were beautiful. Ravel was lovely, but again I got the impression that there was so much back that at times, it was hard to keep the engine going. Still a lovely horse and an impressive test, and I understood it medaling.

So, my rookie question - is long backed favored in dressage? Is this a trend or long established diversion from the shorter backed baroque breeds?

And I'll take a stab at an educated guess on the images in the link, following along the same 'length of back' lines. This backward tilt that is so appalling to the commentator, could this be a result of a shorter back in Totilas? Is it somewhat of an optical illusion? If you take two horizontal planes of differing lengths, and raise their "front ends" 10 degrees, won't the shorter one be noticeably steeper? Isn't a 10 degree incline over a mile less noticeable then a 10 degree incline over a quarter mile?

I come from a h/j background dags so maybe I can illuminate.

DAP is diagonal advanced placement. I had no idea what it was, but we had a horse who exhibited it naturally (evident as a yearling so no rollkur going on, LOL) It is considered by some to be a "marker" of the ability to collect. It refers to a slight placement of the hind leg before its diagonal front pair in the trot. This is how our boy with DAP jumped:

http://tinyurl.com/23uy8s9

(And for the purists - that was NEVER tuned. It was purely natural.)

"Alf" (Mistral Horjis) *is* long-backed. So is Ravel. It is not necessarily a bad thing for dressage as a longer horse will find the lateral movements easier. So movements such as half-pass are easier. And yes, they do like ginormous because a huge horse with a huge stride "fills" the arena more than a smaller than a shorter backed, smaller horse.

I think in the photos posted of Totilas, there is some camera distortion going
on. When you take a photo, you are taking an image of something who performs
in three dimensions and representing it in two. There is also the issue of perspective and the vanishing point. I agree that is what you see.

And I'd take Totilas any day. Everything is so easy for him. And he is a very giving horse. Pretty doesn't hurt. Maybe I am just shallow, but I like a pretty horse. <grin> You can say the same of Fuego, but the Iberian type does not appeal to me as much. Don't care for the heavy, short neck. Different flavors, none is wrong.

Sue

dags
Oct. 4, 2010, 03:51 PM
Thanks Sue, really appreciate it. Especially the DAP explanation - wow, you'd have to have an eye to catch that. Or maybe I just never thought to look.

I also thought about adding, since I do have pretty extensive video experience, that those still frames do look fishy in terms of aspect ratio, and that is so distorting.

I think "easy" is what most attracted me to Totilas. Lol, and coming from hunter background, they all look a bit hackney at the extended trot, but I thought it was beautiful. Extravagant. Very expressive. But I guess everything in moderation :)

SueL
Oct. 4, 2010, 04:14 PM
Toto's dam has produced advanced level jumpers. And Gribaldi's sire Kostolany was no dud at jumping or producing jumpers. My sister says "I'll take a jumper with that freedom of shoulder." And I'll take one with his heart and mind.

Looking forward to the show jumping this week! As are you as well I'm sure.

Sue

netg
Oct. 4, 2010, 04:33 PM
Given the pictures on that site, can we say DAP?

Most experts, Hilda Gurney included, see DAP as a desirable trait in dressage. It does not indicate a "four beat trot," whatever that is. Educate yourself and at least use the terms that show you have an education in dressage. It's one thing to argue that DAP isn't desirable. It's quite another to mislabel it as a "4 beat trot"--a term obviously meant to sensationalize.

That's what I thought the first time I saw that site.

I see in pictures of my guy that he's starting to develop DAP. As he bends his hocks/lowers his back end/lifts in front, photos show a slight DAP on him which definitely didn't exist when I first got him. He's obviously no Totilas (fair, as I'm no Edward Gal), but it shows me that proper training tends to create that tendency in a dressage horse.

I also felt the "look the legs are forward" comments to mean "look, the horse is collected but I'm too ignorant to know what collection is!"

I'm not good enough to see flaws in Toto, but the announcers were pointing out things I would have missed such as some piaffe where one hind leg lifted more than the other. I have no idea if that should change his scores at all, but it was something which actually existed in that specific piaffe, so wasn't absolute perfection. (Then again, it could have gotten a 10 even, as the word for 10 isn't perfect...)


To the OP: did you read the Dressage Today article that came out a couple of months ago that discussed this very issue by Dr. Hillary Clayton (Sorry I can't pinpoint the issue)? She took slow shot videos that showed these very same things as examples of what judges view as good gaits. Her conclusions were that good gaits are not what we have written down as good gaits and that it is the overall harmony that judges are seeing and scoring.

A short search didn't help me find that online... if anyone knows of a link would you share? It sounds like something I would be very interested in reading, and I'll look more when I'm home and not just at lunch.


I think this is why some people are misinterpreting the scoring. It isn't the flashy trot that the judges are rewarding. It's a cominbation of a number of things: the engagement, self carriage, willingness, flexibility, adjustability, ease of performing the most difficult movements and so on that are pulling down the big scores. And then there is the wonderful partnership Gal has with Toto. I agree that the trot is a bit over-exaggerated, but there is so much more to absolutely love about that pair.

I was irritated at the tv commentator stating that his extended trot was his most brilliant gait or something like that. It's most flashy, for sure, and brilliant meant that way could be a true statement... but I believe historically it has the lowest scores of his work.

I would never, EVER, take Toto if he were offered to me. I couldn't ride that horse, or afford to campaign him as he should be campaigned (or maybe stud fees could pay for that...) I've said he's actually not "my thing" as far as how he looks - just a purely personal taste thing. But his performances sure leave me wishing I could be 1/2 as good in many of the things he does, and not feeling a desire to criticize or insult him.

oldernewbie
Oct. 4, 2010, 04:40 PM
I went to WEG prepared to hate Totilas. How could all that hype be true? And I really didn't care for the videos that I saw of him. So imagine what happened when I saw him live - there's a whole 'nother dimension to this horse/rider combo that is not captured on video very well, at least not to my eyes. And that is...the absolute precision and perfection of the performance they put out. I watched the team competition and it seemed like every single step of the test was done well. This characteristic is so obvious when you see them in person but for some reason isn't transmitted well on video.

It blew my mind that some of the riders on Monday and Tuesday didn't execute a good halt, or extended walk, or rein back. I will openly say that I don't know all that much about the higher level movements, but these things I could judge. Some of it is bad luck maybe? or just not enough attention to detail? but Totilas and his rider did everything right and beautifully too.

So yes, count me among the converted, and yes, I think the site posted is silly. Dressage is not a static sport and even videos don't tell the whole story.

doccer
Oct. 4, 2010, 06:32 PM
i almost want to think that the more collected a horse gets, the more flamboyant their movement.

the totilas vides of 5 years ago, he isnt collected as he is now. the old video still shows movement, but as he progresses in his collection, the movement get extravagent.

also, there was a thread with klimke (i think ??) that showed his warmup in a snaffle. Same thing, when horse was warming up in working gaits, he had movement... but as soon as horse was asked to work in collected movements, the knees come up and the movement gets bigger, bouncier and flamboyant :yes:

... just had this on my mind, might not be true yet a general observation...

OneGrayPony
Oct. 4, 2010, 10:03 PM
doccer, it does stand to reason that it may be the case. I looked the vids up because someone else had asserted that his moment had calmed down (which is obviously not the case).

Does anyone see DAP in the 5 year old video? I'm not seeing it, but the video won't slow down for me. That's just a curiosity for me more than anything else.

netg
Oct. 4, 2010, 11:06 PM
doccer, it does stand to reason that it may be the case. I looked the vids up because someone else had asserted that his moment had calmed down (which is obviously not the case).

I don't know that I would say his movement has calmed down, but he used to be inconsistent as far as he seemed to be trying to figure out if he was supposed to be doing passage, trot or extended trot at times. Now the difference between the gaits is very clear and distinct. I'm guessing it's just a combination of strength and more time for consistent riding and experience.

xsalute
Oct. 4, 2010, 11:48 PM
All I can say to the OP is wow! Totilas is amazing and Gal is a beautiful rider. All you have to do is look at the team work between horse and rider. It's not about disecting the horse you have to look at the horse as a whole presentation.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 5, 2010, 12:37 AM
Doesn't it stand to reason that as a horse gets stronger and more highly schooled, his gaits improve & get more brilliant?

Just as a gymnast has to start with basic ballet steps and tumbling skills, but it takes practice, strength training and suppling exercises before that gymnast is ready for high-level competition.

Donella
Oct. 5, 2010, 12:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, in fact, his sire did not. He didn't either, until recently.

Uh, yeah he did. Gribaldi was very prepotant as a breeding stallion. There is a video if him a few days before he died at P.S's in Germany where Gal is riding him with Moller on Sandro Hit. Gribaldi looks the best I have ever seen him (such an amazing stallion!) and SO much like Toto. Is he as nice? No..but there is no doubt one knows where the movement came from.

And btw,horses are born exhibiting positive or negative DAP..and it is something they continue to show all of their lives.

And a five year old dressage horse should not move the same way a finished GP horse moves! Why everyone is so amazed that Toto moves differently from when he was a five year old is sort of baffling.

Bethe Mounce
Oct. 5, 2010, 02:21 AM
The black pearl is not perfect, but he is the shining star of dressage. Whoever put up this web page has nothing better to do with their time. Whether ya like the horse or not, ya can't get away from the fact that he is fabulous to watch and he is a terrific ambassador for the sport. We suck at marketing horse sports in this country besides racing.....so, thanks to Totilas, who made it home safely by the way, dressage is out there! How I love that spanish horse, Fuego! What a great show he put on Fri nite! He will give Mr. Totilas a run for his money one of these days! ;-) His score was a bit low I thought on Fri nite, but despite that, the horse is super!

OneGrayPony
Oct. 5, 2010, 08:19 AM
No, in fact, his sire did not. He didn't either, until recently.

Uh, yeah he did. Gribaldi was very prepotant as a breeding stallion. There is a video if him a few days before he died at P.S's in Germany where Gal is riding him with Moller on Sandro Hit. Gribaldi looks the best I have ever seen him (such an amazing stallion!) and SO much like Toto. Is he as nice? No..but there is no doubt one knows where the movement came from.

And btw,horses are born exhibiting positive or negative DAP..and it is something they continue to show all of their lives.

And a five year old dressage horse should not move the same way a finished GP horse moves! Why everyone is so amazed that Toto moves differently from when he was a five year old is sort of baffling.

No one is amazed.

You misread what I type - someone asked if he moved the same way as an adult horse as he did as a youngster.

He did not.

I don't see the DAP in the 5 year old video, and I was asking if anyone else did. I know the theory is that it exists at the beginning - that they are born with it - but I can't SEE it in the video which is why I asked if anyone else could. I didn't ask whether horses were born with it or not - that's an entirely different subject for an entirely different day.

Gribaldi also did not exhibit flamboyant gaits in the video that I presented to you. They were very nice - I'm not discounting that, I'd take his sire any day - but they were not knees to nose.

Dissecting the horse's performance is important, if you wish to learn what made them so brilliant. The partnership is great - sure, I think Gal is a wonderful rider - but riders only improve by taking things apart and learning what it is that made the ride wonderful.

**Please note - I am NOT referring to the initial webpage that started this discussion as I found that bizarre and mean-spirited.**

Maybe I should just start new threads as it seems that any question that I ask gets turned into "you must be against Totilas" *sigh* I didn't want to - because obviously that caused problems for other posters. D*mned if you do, D*mned if you don't.

CFFarm
Oct. 5, 2010, 09:20 AM
Web site is right. Breaking all the rules. Mistreating the horse. Horrible riding. Forcing him to move incorrectly. Horse should be sent to me immediately for reabilitation.

Calamber
Oct. 5, 2010, 03:21 PM
I suspect the "positive DAP" with the hind hoof landing first allows the extra "expression" of the front legs.

This is something that is being rewarded and bred for, but is it desirable? If breeders trainers and riders continue to seek out more and more DAP will we end up with four gaited horses? Will the auction catalogs and stallion ads of the future include a DAP score?

It would be interesting to see if the less flashy superstars of a few years back like Ahlerich exhibited DAP.

Totilas always looked like a cross between a hackney and a warmblood to me. He is a lovely, energetic creature and very game, but is he a horse of the century for dressage? Is this what should be the ideal? Is it the sizzle and not the steak, does flash cover for all of the obvious other issues? That is the question and to me it is a resounding no.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 5, 2010, 03:43 PM
You know what they say about opinions, don't you, Calamber?

DAP exists. The horses that have it are capable of collection, that "sit" behind with "lift" in front. What's not to like? That's one of the things we seek in dressage, is it not? I'm in agreement with those who see the general quality and quantity of dressage as improving. Glass half full, not half empty here!

Maybe Totilas is some sort of freak of nature, I don't know. But he's fun to watch.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Oct. 5, 2010, 07:27 PM
Having studied, observed, and trained dressage horses my entire life when I look at Totilas I am thinking, "Wow! What a passage! Wow! What a great piaffe! Wow! what a super canter pirouette! Wow! What amazing changes! Wow! Stair climbing trot half passes! Wow! Flawless zig-zags! Wow! Completly relaxed walk after the wow passsage! And yes, wow extended trot. I am not forgetting the extended canter but y'all get my point by now. God gave Toto great capacity. Edward Gal gave him the training to do those movements so seamlessly! Brilliantly! I truly dont understand the bias against this unique horse and the gentleman that has developed him.

Beentheredonethat
Oct. 5, 2010, 09:44 PM
Don Raphaeko Rollkuritsa--Bravo! A toast to you. I am drinking a coffee! (Don't like the alcohol.)

spirithorse
Oct. 5, 2010, 09:57 PM
The thread is about rules being broken.

Totilas is a beautiful mover, though he has the leg action of a saddlebred.

The issue that everyone avoids is that he is NOT correct and Mr. Gal is not riding according to the rules.

That brings up the second issue of the judges blatantly ignoring Article 416 Submission part 2 which states within its structure: "The main contact with the horse's mouth must be through the snaffle bit."

The primary and consistently the most pressurized bit by the majority of GP riders is the curb bit. This violation should drop the scores dramatically because the horse is not being 'allowed' to perform the full-complete-consise descriptions of the movements contained stipulated in the rules.

Then one must apply Article 401

The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education. As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible,...

The presentations by GP riders at WEG clearly demonstrate that the horses do not lateral flexion of the poll.

Article 401 paragraph 2 states:
2. The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is
required.

The presentations did not show horses being given the aids and then the bits released sufficiently for the horse to "appear" to be doing it freely.

Article 401 paragraph 5 states within:

The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck,...

The presentations did not show horses being given the opportunity to have a supple poll nor placing their polls as the highest point.

Sannois
Oct. 5, 2010, 10:08 PM
for posting those Spirit.
The one thing I could not help wondering when watching the freestyle was why all the curb rein use??
I thought the horse was flamboyant in front, but to me he did not have a lot of sit in the extension.
I agree with the saddlebred movement comments.
I know who am I. But there seems to be so much tension in so many of these horses. :no:

lep
Oct. 5, 2010, 10:18 PM
When I saw Totilas doing his extended trot, all I could think of was videos I've seen of those extremely exaggerated saddlebreds. It seemed almost freakish. The horse is beautiful, but I, too, preferred Ravel.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 5, 2010, 10:25 PM
Spirithorse, you don't ride by the rules. I don't believe you have any experience showing (or even preparing to show) dressage. Not at Intro, not at Training, not at First. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but all you do is quote ODG's and read from rule books. But can you walk the walk?

No, you can't, and anyone who gives any credence to the stuff you write is as foolish as you are. I see you've taken your web address off your posts. Smart move. You weren't doing yourself any favors displaying that stuff.

Your criticism of these world-class horses and riders is akin to me trying to tell John Elway how to throw a football. It's stupid.

So Toto and Gal don't float your boat? Too bad, pal. The judges, who know a damn sight more about dressage than you ever will saw things differently, and their opinion counts for something. Yours does not.

Sannois
Oct. 5, 2010, 10:31 PM
can't people post their opinions and observations on this board without someone accusing them of having no experience or knowledge?
I do not understand it. Probably why I stayed away for over a year. :no:

ThreeFigs
Oct. 5, 2010, 10:38 PM
Sannois, if you knew anything about the person you're agreeing with, you'd be embarrassed!

I know you know much more than The Reverend (aka Spirithorse) and can walk the walk and talk the talk. Since you've been gone for a year, you may have no idea what's transpired.

Do a little research on Spirithorse for some entertainment...

Sannois
Oct. 5, 2010, 10:48 PM
Sannois, if you knew anything about the person you're agreeing with, you'd be embarrassed!

I know you know much more than The Reverend (aka Spirithorse) and can walk the walk and talk the talk. Since you've been gone for a year, you may have no idea what's transpired.

Do a little research on Spirithorse for some entertainment...
Tried to look up his profile, Went to a dead end. Interesting. :winkgrin:

Beentheredonethat
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:07 PM
Sannois--I really understand what you're saying, and so get it. I don't know this person in particular and have never taken the time to look at anything except one horrid riding video, so no comment. But, there are and have been people who are REALLY aggressive in saying they know everything and perpetuate this idea that they know so much. From personal experience, sometimes the more someone comes off as knowing everything, the less they know. That goes with "abuse," too. Those that cry it the most tend to be the worst perpetrators. This goes for pretty much anyone in the world, though, doesn't it?

candico
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:19 PM
Beasmom, I am totally empathizing with your rise in blood pressure. I find that this thread in particular is a good one to comprise a list of those to ignore so said blood pressure can stay at a healthy level. Anyone who seems to focus on the extended trot as to why Toto is definitely a park horse and all of dressage is doomed is probably stuck at first level and you focus on what you know. It's like those who were OBSESSED with Anky's inability to halt. It's just too bad that this forum has turned into the UDBB. I have noticed a lot of the more insightful posters have cleverly avoided these train wrecks of threads, although I do feel sad we can't chat about the reality of how wonderful it is to have at least eight horse and rider teams at the moment that can score GPFS scores of 80% plus.

I remember way back when I first started watching World Cup Freestyles that I thought Bonfire was a snooze and Aktion was the bomb. A few years later, I watched those tapes again and although Aktion will always have a place in my heart, I was mesmerized at the level of partnership Anky had with that horse and how he truly danced with her. That was the first time I began to be able to recognize elasticity, cadence, and tact. I also relished Biotop, especially Klimke's canter work. It was just beautiful... Everyone has a journey as they discover dressage. I'm just glad I didn't get stuck at first level!!

mickeydoodle
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:22 PM
Spirithorse, you don't ride by the rules. I don't believe you have any experience showing (or even preparing to show) dressage. Not at Intro, not at Training, not at First. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but all you do is quote ODG's and read from rule books. But can you walk the walk?

No, you can't, and anyone who gives any credence to the stuff you write is as foolish as you are. I see you've taken your web address off your posts. Smart move. You weren't doing yourself any favors displaying that stuff.

Your criticism of these world-class horses and riders is akin to me trying to tell John Elway how to throw a football. It's stupid.

So Toto and Gal don't float your boat? Too bad, pal. The judges, who know a damn sight more about dressage than you ever will saw things differently, and their opinion counts for something. Yours does not.


amen, amen- Spirithorse- ABSOLUTELY NONE of the pics nor videos on your website show anything close to correct riding, let alone correct dressage. I will pay attention to your comments when you can post a video of a correctly ridden horse in any discipline.

spirithorse
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:24 PM
Beasmom, Mickeydoodle,etc.

Where are your videos? Where oh where are your websites............

You are cry babies because myself and others want the rules enforced against all the riders...remember it is not the horses making the mistakes, its the rider.

mickeydoodle
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:39 PM
Beasmom, Mickeydoodle,etc.

Where are your videos? Where oh where are your websites............

You are cry babies because myself and others want the rules enforced against all the riders...remember it is not the horses making the mistakes, its the rider.

[Bull] spirithorse, I was at all of the dressage at WEG. Absolutely no rules were broken, you have no idea of what you speak. If you think rules are broken, why are you not taking it up with the FEI? not on some no account BB here?

ThreeFigs
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:39 PM
Thanks, candico! I'm feeling much better now, having blown off some steam.

Aktion -- what a horse! And Dallos -- yeah, I thought he was marvelous! Whatever happened to them? I think Dallos has a daughter who's competing...

I think what we're witnessing in dressage is akin to the revolution in gymnastics from a few years back. Who was it that got the first "10"? That seemed to open the floodgates and we started seeing more 10's awarded, and well deserved 10's, not "gimme" scores.

Many things have evolved and improved over the last 100 years. Better film and video technology, for instance. From the days of scratchy, slightly out of focus 16 or 32 MM film to crystal clear digital technology that ALLOWS us to see the pimple on the end of Anky's nose! Besides books by and about the dressage masters, we have video tapes and DVDs to better study the masters of the modern era. We can listen to lectures on CD's as we drive to the barn. Better saddlery, better & safer transportation for the horses, high tech fabrics for ridingwear, better cross-training techniques for both horse and rider, and, of course, wonderful purpose-bred horses.

"Purpose-bred" does not exist in the vacuum of dressage, either. Witness purpose-bred Reiners, Cutters, Jumpers and so on...

There are many reasons to be happy!

Eye in the Sky
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:57 PM
These are still shots of Totilas :

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas

Don't kill the messenger. I put this up so people could come to their own conclusion.


[edit] I'd love to see you stand toe-to-toe with any of the judges with your freeze-frames. Your sense of logic and reason must come from a place where the Lollipop Guild come out to play.

I'm sorry, don't kill the messenger. ;) (Oh, but I did come to my own conclusion about you - I hope that was ok).

Let me ask: Why are you so intent on disparaging this horse and rider? What did it do to YOU when they won?

ThreeFigs
Oct. 5, 2010, 11:58 PM
"remember it is not the horses making the mistakes, its the rider."

Hey, we agree on something, Reverend! And one thing you're very good at is making mistakes and then broadcasting them on the web! "Actions speak louder than words", and unfortunately your actions, both on film and as displayed on your website, speak volumes that your cribbing of Podhajsky and others just can't hide.

Sorry, I'm disinclined to follow your lead. I do not aspire to be some Internet Guru, selling bitless bridles, goofy theories and sending self-important letters to the heads of national organizations.

You want so badly to be taken seriously here, but you lack the insight to understand WHY you're not.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:02 AM
I love you, Eye in the Sky, and I want to have your children...

Coreene
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:33 AM
Beasmom, didn't you know? The judges are blind and the stewards never showed up at all. Of course, if Gal and Toto had been American, it would have been swooning and farting butterflies.

ThreeFigs
Oct. 6, 2010, 01:38 AM
That explains everything!

Thanks, Coreene!

Go Fish
Oct. 6, 2010, 02:45 AM
Beasmom, didn't you know? The judges are blind and the stewards never showed up at all. Of course, if Gal and Toto had been American, it would have been swooning and farting butterflies.

I'm thinking you and I have the same brain waves.

In all these dressage threads, I have rarely, I mean RARELY, seen criticism of an American horse or rider. They are perfect, dontcha know. Those damn Dutch...they are the bane of dressage, though.

I'll bet it was quite a party on the plane as it flew across the pond. :lol:

horsepoor
Oct. 6, 2010, 03:47 AM
I'll bet it was quite a party on the plane as it flew across the pond. :lol:

Plane? What plane? Totilas walks on water...

(Hey, I LIKE him, but I couldn't resist...:D)

Across Sicily
Oct. 6, 2010, 05:10 AM
For those of you whingeing on about how Totilas looks like a Saddlebred (though certainly no Saddlebred *I've* ever seen... and certainly, the action is not really similar... Saddlebreds are much more sewing machine-y in the trot and tend to bring hoof to elbow vs far out in front of them like Toto does when extended - passage, etc. is a totally different story since ASBs, et al don't really do that)...

What is wrong with that, exactly?

I really don't get it.

Coming from a Morgan/ASB/Arab background, I've always been taught to appreciate flamboyant movement from a horse. It is not a bad thing. It is natural in many breeds of horses. I would be surprised if it is not at least mostly natural in Toto, simply because I know what a truly manufactured front end looks like, and that's not it.

alicen
Oct. 6, 2010, 07:23 AM
spirithorse, maybe you should put more of your energy into your presidential campaign. You might have more influence with the FEI from that position.

Coreene
Oct. 6, 2010, 11:24 AM
I still can't get past his comment re Gal breaking the rules. Obviously the judges thought not, spirit. That's why Gal is the one back in Harskamp with three world championships. Three. In one WEG. AKA never been done before. But what do they know, right?

ThreeFigs
Oct. 6, 2010, 12:07 PM
I'm lovin' it!

:lol:

Spirithorse for President?!? OMG!! :eek: He's still running?