PDA

View Full Version : Sjef riding Rollkur: A picture is worth a thousand words



MLK1
Oct. 1, 2010, 05:38 AM
This video was posted in another forum, but I thought it was important to post here as some people might not read all the other threads.

This poor horses head is tied to the girth in the Rollkur position. I am sorry but I dont see how ANYONE can justify this!!! Gold medals or not.

And YES Ridgeback I already know, I am just ignorant!! ;)


http://camera-obscura-billie.blogspo...rything-i.html

BaroquePony
Oct. 1, 2010, 06:23 AM
The link doesn't work.

MLK1
Oct. 1, 2010, 07:59 AM
Thanks Baroque pony.

I am not sure why it is not working as I copied from the other thread. If anyone wants to see the video it was on the last page of "Dutch rider Adelinde Cornelissen eliminated in dressage: Horse's mouth bleeding" thread in the WEG forum.

Sorry!

carolprudm
Oct. 1, 2010, 08:30 AM
http://camera-obscura-billie.blogspot.com/2010/09/sjef-janssen-illustrates-everything-i.html

FWIW instead of copying the shortened link out of a post, open the link and copy the address from there

Fantastic
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:06 AM
Sick. Wrong. Cruel. Inhumane.

In a double bridle with the head tied down?? Heck, in any bridle with the head tied down? Flipping unbelievable!! I wonder if this is how they all usually train behind closed door?

Makes me want to vomit. :mad:

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:15 AM
sick, wrong and inhumane is that german lady that was beating the day lights out of her horse on the lounge line. What Sjef was doing was hardly inhumane, sick or wrong you might not agree with it but that is just going to far. IMO:yes:

EightBelles134
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:30 AM
I personally don't see why Rollkur is even needed.There are ways to get the horses to flex like that without using Rollkur.And I to believe that one could call it inhumane.I was taught that Rollkur creates breathing issues and other problems after being used for a long period of time

ButterflyIris
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:34 AM
so - this is starting to feel very ethnocentric - ie: hate the dutch
May I suggest that we look to the abuse on our home soil and start the witch hunt on the reiners, western pleasure, and the padded gaited horses? I've seen a hunter trainer doing worse with a horse in pelham and draw reins. Let's not get so single minded as to not weigh this against abuse that occurs here every day.

Fantastic
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:39 AM
ridgeback - WOW! I can't believe that you are defending this way of treating a horse! Why would you defend it? You like this type of training? May be it is not sick, wrong, cruel, or inhumane to you, but it certainly is to me. Do you treat your horses this way?

My words are going too far? If anyone is "going too far" it is those that would tie a horse's head down in this fashion!!

I call it like I see it: sick (disgusting treatment), wrong (what right is there in tying a horses head down in a double bridle, or any bridle), cruel (the poor horse has his head tied to his chest, for God's sake!), inhumane (deliberately tying down head = pain and suffering).

I am all for the good of the animal. Can you tell me what the good is here???

betonbill
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:39 AM
I think I've seen that snippet before, and wasn't the total length something like 18-19 seconds?

Instead, why not applaud all of the non-RK horses that are competing, like the British one? If RK is so harmful, why not encourage everyone to compete otherwise and win? It is possible...

siegi b.
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:41 AM
Butterflyiris - you're suggesting the obvious as I have done on several occasions in the past..... But, that's not what this crowd wants to hear. They have decided to crucify all things RK/LDR/Dutch/Sjef and are not about to let go. It's much more fun to continue to regurgitate all this sensational spew, especially when you don't know much about it.

Not worth the effort to even get involved... :no:

WBLover
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:43 AM
We would be JUST as flabberghasted seeing this done in ANY OTHER discipline, so why is it being defended in dressage?

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:44 AM
ridgeback - WOW! I can't believe that you are defending this way of treating a horse! Why would you defend it? You like this type of training? May be it is not sick, wrong, cruel, or inhumane to you, but it certainly is to me. Do you treat your horses this way?

My words are going too far? If anyone is "going too far" it is those that would tie a horse's head down in this fashion!!

I call it like I see it: sick (disgusting treatment), wrong (what right is there in tying a horses head down in a double bridle, or any bridle), cruel (the poor horse has his head tied to his chest, for God's sake!), inhumane (deliberately tying down head = pain and suffering).

I am all for the good of the animal. Can you tell me what the good is here???

Yes I don't have a problem with it..in the right hands it can be a teaching moment for the horse. Would I want to see the horse ridden like that every day 365 days a year NO. The horse does not look in pain or upset like I've said before many of you that can't sit the trot for your life or are really overweight is more cruel then what Sjef is doing...JUST my opinion;) Lack of turnout for many many dressage horses is more of a welfare issue then this.

Fantastic
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:48 AM
ButterflyIris - I get your point. Yes, abuse sadly happens day in and day out. If this was like the one person with the pelham and draw reins, it would be different. We are talking about a lot more than one person and one incident here.

This group of people are in the spotlight because they are at the top nationally, and they practice these controfersial techniques, to which many, many people object. They cannot help but get noticed, and tongues will wag.

If they were all about harmony, kindness, beauty, etc. in their training methods AND STILL WINNING, I'm sure we'd still be talking about them! :)

carolprudm
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:55 AM
so - this is starting to feel very ethnocentric - ie: hate the dutch
May I suggest that we look to the abuse on our home soil and start the witch hunt on the reiners, western pleasure, and the padded gaited horses? I've seen a hunter trainer doing worse with a horse in pelham and draw reins. Let's not get so single minded as to not weigh this against abuse that occurs here every day.

Yes there is abuse and suffering all around us.

Just because X mistreats Y does not excuse A msitreating B. In a non horse concept, there are drive by shootings in major cities but it's still not OK to beat someone because shooting them is worse.

Pick your battles and take your stand.

Fantastic
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:56 AM
ridgeback - could not agree more!


like I've said before many of you that can't sit the trot for your life or are really overweight is more cruel then what Sjef is doing...JUST my opinion .

OMG! :eek: Yes, this is a form of cruelty, too! If you can't sit the trot, please don't!! Save your horse, get off your bum, raise it, and post!



Lack of turnout for many many dressage horses is more of a welfare issue then this

Ah, this one, too. Lack of turnout for any horse, for that matter. Horses are meant to MOVE, and they are herd animals! I don't care where my horses came from or how much they cost (or some that didn't cost much), my horses are HORSES first, and then they are my riding partners! I have had people come here and question, "what? your fei horses are often turned out 24/7? huh? I thought they were hot house flowers!". Yep, they all get treated the same - like horses should be - out in pastures or paddocks, and in herds when they can be.

Sorry - I got a little side tracked here. Back to the topic at hand!

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:08 AM
I personally don't see why Rollkur is even needed.There are ways to get the horses to flex like that without using Rollkur.And I to believe that one could call it inhumane.I was taught that Rollkur creates breathing issues and other problems after being used for a long period of time

It also overextends the longissimus (etc) and creates excessive strain and wear on said ligament, which also leads to hock issues down the road. No extreme position is meant to be held so long (I highly doubt the position held in the video highlighted was held for only the 18-19s of the video, and nonetheless the video illustrates a rampant problem where much of the time the position is held much longer than 18-19s) and doing so creates discomfort at best and pain at worst for the horse. Nevermind stripping the horse of its vision in such a position and impairing its breathing.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:13 AM
so - this is starting to feel very ethnocentric - ie: hate the dutch
May I suggest that we look to the abuse on our home soil and start the witch hunt on the reiners, western pleasure, and the padded gaited horses? I've seen a hunter trainer doing worse with a horse in pelham and draw reins. Let's not get so single minded as to not weigh this against abuse that occurs here every day.

Honestly I do not usually participate in these trainwreck threads however I did not get that illusion at all, that it was about hating the dutch. This is a dressage thread so obviously this is the place to discuss dressage, no? I hate bad riding and poor techniques in any discipline - WP, reining, gaited all included. However I am certainly not looking to discuss WP here on a dressage thread. I don't think anyone is, hence this thread being here, specifically. Just because abuse exists in other disciplines does not mean we cannot discuss dressage abuse specifically. I do not think this method can be defended simply by pointing out that other or perhaps more severe abuses or concerns occur - turnout and riders unable to sit a trot are besides the point.

carolprudm
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:17 AM
ridgeback - could not agree more!



OMG! :eek: Yes, this is a form of cruelty, too! If you can't sit the trot, please don't!! Save your horse, get off your bum, raise it, and post!




Ah, this one, too. Lack of turnout for any horse, for that matter. Horses are meant to MOVE, and they are herd animals! I don't care where my horses came from or how much they cost (or some that didn't cost much), my horses are HORSES first, and then they are my riding partners! I have had people come here and question, "what? your fei horses are often turned out 24/7? huh? I thought they were hot house flowers!". Yep, they all get treated the same - like horses should be - out in pastures or paddocks, and in herds when they can be.

Sorry - I got a little side tracked here. Back to the topic at hand!

Two wrongs do not make a right

Again you can't excuse bad behavior because someone does something different that is also bad.

Bogey2
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:23 AM
deja vu all over again

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:24 AM
Two wrongs do not make a right

Again you can't excuse bad behavior because someone does something different that is also bad.

You are correct but not everyone agrees with what is wrong...

crittertwitter
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:25 AM
Two wrongs do not make a right

Again you can't excuse bad behavior because someone does something different that is also bad.

Yea, that method of arguing is a red herring. A fallacy, by god! Not that lack of logic has ever slowed any of us down. :lol:

redalter
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:40 AM
Ok, this is horrible in any discipline, from any country. I mean, really? You need to do this why??

And, yes, there is cruelty in most if not all disciplines, but this is what's being discussed on this thread, and it is appalling. It's not how it compares to western, or the soring issue, or eventing or racing, etc.

It's cruel. Period. And not needed. For all the years that dressage has been a discipline, it managed to produce fabulous, happy connected, correct horses without this ridiculous method.

I don't care where they are from, or what language they speak, if this is a "method" of training for them, they should be ashamed.

And, isn't that restricting the horses breathing somewhat?

Sheesh.


And for what it's worth, I can sit the trot, and I am a size 4. And I work to keep it that way.

My God, they do everything we ask of them for basically our entertainment, dreams, businees, whatever, must we do this to them??

ButterflyIris
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:45 AM
I didn't expect my comments to be well received because of the high emotional valence of this debate.
My intent was very simple. I was just pointing out that there is a bigger forest here of bad training and abuse. It seems that we are fixating on just one tree, or actually, just one branch of one tree.
Everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion of how horses should be treated. I was becoming more uncomfortable with the feeling that nothing EVER bad happens HERE on our soil. fixing my halo now ~

doccer
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:50 AM
We would be JUST as flabberghasted seeing this done in ANY OTHER discipline, so why is it being defended in dressage?

you are right... i've heard THIS dressage forum BASH qh/hunter horses for the exact same reason. gadgets and being tied... you think its cruel to tie a horses head to his stirrup? well guess what, that video shows a horses head TIED to the girth

what a f*cking joke :mad: ... especially the sh*t spued about fat people riding horses being compared to hyperflexion.

dressage is a joke... and i used to LOVE dressage. tying the head isnt training, hell, i'll tie my horses head to the girth tomoro and call it trained :confused: ... yeah sounds stupid :yes:

f*cking joke

katarine
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:53 AM
I would imagine we're discussing dressage because this is a forum labeled 'dressage.'

I won't necessarily label it abusive. Excessive, yes. Abusive, I'm not going there.

The reason these threads surface endlessly is we can't - and never will- agree on what is black, what is white, and what is in the myriad of shades called grey.

or is it gray?

;)

Dressage is NOT a joke. My Lendon Grey book does not suddenly contain a chapter on Rollkuring your way to the top! Podhajsky doesn't suddenly appear on Youtube on a Lip with his bit tied to his knees or some such. My Ingrid Klimke book doesn't magically contain information on the LDR vs RK debate. To say the sky is falling and dressage is dead is lazy BS. Go ride your horse.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2010, 10:54 AM
Call me suspicious as that video is a few seconds each way, so I'm not buying the whole screaming and crying some cothers are doing.

It's just an act,to freak out about that mini video of a horse extra round IMO.

I think if you didn't have something to cry about I'd think you'd start Rolkuring in your back yard with a video, and blurrring out your own head!

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:01 AM
Ok, this is horrible in any discipline, from any country. I mean, really? You need to do this why??

And, yes, there is cruelty in most if not all disciplines, but this is what's being discussed on this thread, and it is appalling. It's not how it compares to western, or the soring issue, or eventing or racing, etc.

It's cruel. Period. And not needed. For all the years that dressage has been a discipline, it managed to produce fabulous, happy connected, correct horses without this ridiculous method.

I don't care where they are from, or what language they speak, if this is a "method" of training for them, they should be ashamed.

And, isn't that restricting the horses breathing somewhat?

Sheesh.


And for what it's worth, I can sit the trot, and I am a size 4. And I work to keep it that way.

My God, they do everything we ask of them for basically our entertainment, dreams, businees, whatever, must we do this to them??


IN YOUR OPINION!!!!:eek:

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:03 AM
you are right... i've heard THIS dressage forum BASH qh/hunter horses for the exact same reason. gadgets and being tied... you think its cruel to tie a horses head to his stirrup? well guess what, that video shows a horses head TIED to the girth

what a f*cking joke :mad: ... especially the sh*t spued about fat people riding horses being compared to hyperflexion.

dressage is a joke... and i used to LOVE dressage. tying the head isnt training, hell, i'll tie my horses head to the girth tomoro and call it trained :confused: ... yeah sounds stupid :yes:

f*cking joke


Wow drama:) If you think this is cruel fat people trying to ride is cruel too.

horsefaerie
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:06 AM
Why not just allow martingales in dressage? Poll below your knee, tension OK. Change the rules to what you want them to be.

Problem solved.

doccer
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:06 AM
Dressage is NOT a joke. My Lendon Grey book does not suddenly contain a chapter on Rollkuring your way to the top! Podhajsky doesn't suddenly appear on Youtube on a Lip with his bit tied to his knees or some such. My Ingrid Klimke book doesn't magically contain information on the LDR vs RK debate. To say the sky is falling and dressage is dead is lazy BS. Go ride your horse.

:lol:

exactly... dressage as it should be is askew, todays 'dressage' in competition is a joke from what is posted on this forum. What else is one to think?

quote away from your books, cuz yes, i will go ride my horse :yes: its not rocket science to have morals and know what is right and wrong...

dont get me wrong, dressage is the only way to train... but what people considered dressage these days is NOT how i'll be riding my horse.

crittertwitter
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:07 AM
I didn't expect my comments to be well received because of the high emotional valence of this debate.
My intent was very simple. I was just pointing out that there is a bigger forest here of bad training and abuse. It seems that we are fixating on just one tree, or actually, just one branch of one tree.
Everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion of how horses should be treated. I was becoming more uncomfortable with the feeling that nothing EVER bad happens HERE on our soil. fixing my halo now ~

For the record, I'm not saying that anyone is doing anything wrong by bringing up tangential issues (and I wasn't singling anyone out). If you want to be inspired by or turn a blind eye to one form of controversial training to crack down on another form that you believe is wrong, good for you. All I *am* saying - and others have said - is that the fact that there are other forms of abuse does not indicate anything about the particular one that people have been discussing here. Please just don't pretend that it does.

Seriously, the tangents are something that make internet BBs interesting. One thing I really like about the COTH forums is that people will come from so many different angles and bring up so many different issues, which often leads to a better understanding of the topic at hand. I'm certainly not saying that threads "should" stay on topic. :lol: The disagreements are often great catalysts for questioning training and thinking. What I don't like is that it sometimes gets ridiculously personal a la "You shall never ride at this level. Shut up." That's a fallacy in its most irrelevant form.

And, once more, this 'witch hunt' business is hilarious. If you want to talk about melodramatic, that would be it. Talking about training style - and even verbally condemning it - is so far from hunting people down and burning them.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:08 AM
I didn't expect my comments to be well received because of the high emotional valence of this debate.
My intent was very simple. I was just pointing out that there is a bigger forest here of bad training and abuse. It seems that we are fixating on just one tree, or actually, just one branch of one tree.
Everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion of how horses should be treated. I was becoming more uncomfortable with the feeling that nothing EVER bad happens HERE on our soil. fixing my halo now ~

Because if you focus on and work on changing each tree then the forest changes, no?

NO ONE said that nothing ever bad happens here in NA.

katarine
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:10 AM
:lol:

exactly... dressage as it should be is askew, todays 'dressage' in competition is a joke from what is posted on this forum. What else is one to think?

quote away from your books, cuz yes, i will go ride my horse :yes: its not rocket science to have morals and know what is right and wrong...

dont get me wrong, dressage is the only way to train... but what people considered dressage these days is NOT how i'll be riding my horse.

Doccer, way to totally drive by the point.

Of the three, Totilas, Ravel, and Laura B's gelding...which of those three endured this sort of riding on their way to carrying their owners to Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals this week?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274896

GoodyTwo
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:13 AM
Wow drama:) If you think this is cruel fat people trying to ride is cruel too.

Really, Ridgeback, could you be more ignorant?





Don’t answer that. :rolleyes:

horsefaerie
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:15 AM
THe big lick wins too! Does that make big sores on the front of the legs ok? It is just a little sore!

Good grief!

redalter
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:23 AM
IN YOUR OPINION!!!!:eek:

So, only IN MY OPINION, our horses have done all that we ask. hmmm.

So, are you saying this "method" is acceptable? Please. Explain to me, the unenlightened and ignorant, the benefits of rolkur.

Really. I'm not being snarky. Is there so much benefit from making the horse this uncomfortable? What is accomplished using this method.



And at the end of the day, for what? A ribbon? A medal? Prestige? At the cost of the horses' obvious - at the least - discomfort?

Really?:no:

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:28 AM
Flame suit donned, but is Gal not a student of Anky?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkAqyniCgE&feature=player_embedded#!

I love some of Steffan Peters' videos on Ravel however I will not claim to be fully knowledgeable in regards to his training methods.

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:32 AM
Dressage is NOT a joke. My Lendon Grey book does not suddenly contain a chapter on Rollkuring your way to the top! Podhajsky doesn't suddenly appear on Youtube on a Lip with his bit tied to his knees or some such. My Ingrid Klimke book doesn't magically contain information on the LDR vs RK debate. To say the sky is falling and dressage is dead is lazy BS. Go ride your horse.

Well said, Katarine. The sky is not falling. A few people have adopted a training method that others find controversial. I don't see droves of people rushing to adopt this method.

I honestly can't think of any trainers in my area who use rollkur. LDR, yes, but rollkur, no. Dressage is not going to h*ll in a hand basket as some of you are implying. There is still a lot of good riding/training out there.

bort84
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:33 AM
Okay, I can understand why some of you (ridgeback, siegi, butterflyiris on this thread) get irritated over the extreme emotions and irrational comments - I do too because I think it just confuses the issue.

However, just because there are other issues that are inarguably more important in the grand scheme of things doesn't change the fact that this video IS ugly. I agree lack of turnout is a bigger deal. I agree neglected, abused or starving horses are a bigger deal. I agree there are worse evils in every other discipline out there.

Sjef has this horse's head tied to his girth. If a random poster on this board put up a video of themselves doing the exact same thing, you can bet they would be crucified. I'd bet many (though not all) of those who tend to defend the trainers using rollkur would be among the group of those railing on the random COTH poster for their very un-dressage-like riding.

Whether you like the "witch hunt" or not, this is still an ugly video. I grew up riding saddle seat and working for saddle seat trainers, and I've seen my fair share of "ugly" during horse training. Ugly does happen, and sometimes it does need to happen - many times, it doesn't. There is a fairly consistent trend of ugly from Sjef's riders - and his riders are some of the most talented in the world on some of the best horses in the world. Why does each of these horses seem to so consistently require this type of training that would usually be saved for only the most spoiled horses?

I can understand the urge to defend the rollkur-using riders - there is very much a witch hunt mentality that is pretty extreme. I don't like that either, and I will be the first to say I think the Dutch team is full of very talented and caring trainers - some of the best in the world. I just think they've made a poor judgment call when it comes to rollkur.

However, I would love for the posters saying its not a big deal and to get over it to confirm whether they like this method or not and whether they would be unhappy or not if they saw a video similar to this except of their trainer on their horse. Ridgeback has been one of the few who has actually given her opinion (yay or nay) about rollkur and to come out and say she does not mind this technique and wouldn't be against it being used on her horse were it in training with Anky and Anky thought it would be useful.

In my opinion, this video is the kind of thing you see from second-rate trainers in other disciplines. You should not be seeing this from the top dressage riders in the world (especially not so consistently) - that's my main issue.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:34 AM
Really, Ridgeback, could you be more ignorant?





Don’t answer that. :rolleyes:

Nope not at all just stating an opinion that what Sjef is doing is not cruel he knows what he's doing his horse looks happy and not stressed...Really overweight people riding horses should be in your book just as cruel or and all those ammy's that can't sit the trot...Just sayin:lol::lol:

ise@ssl
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:37 AM
Well here it is folks - If you lay down with dogs - you get up with fleas.
If the Dutch want this man as their Coach for Dressage - they are clearly laying down with the Dog (no insult Canines)!

The horse doesn't look happy and he's salivating like this because he can't breath correctly. If you don't think that's true then you absolutely don't know what the INSIDE of this horse looks like when being ridden this way.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:37 AM
So, only IN MY OPINION, our horses have done all that we ask. hmmm.

So, are you saying this "method" is acceptable? Please. Explain to me, the unenlightened and ignorant, the benefits of rolkur.

Really. I'm not being snarky. Is there so much benefit from making the horse this uncomfortable? What is accomplished using this method.



And at the end of the day, for what? A ribbon? A medal? Prestige? At the cost of the horses' obvious - at the least - discomfort?

Really?:no:

Well the horses look happy and sound and icing on the cake they win. My point is you have no evidence it is cruel it might not be your cup of tea or mine but just because you don't like it does not make it wrong. Now when unbiased science shows it does harm then I will be on your side...I'm all about facts not hyperbole.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:40 AM
Okay, I can understand why some of you (ridgeback, siegi, butterflyiris on this thread) get irritated over the extreme emotions and irrational comments - I do too because I think it just confuses the issue.

However, just because there are other issues that are inarguably more important in the grand scheme of things doesn't change the fact that this video IS ugly. I agree lack of turnout is a bigger deal. I agree neglected, abused or starving horses are a bigger deal. I agree there are worse evils in every other discipline out there.

Sjef has this horse's head tied to his girth. If a random poster on this board put up a video of themselves doing the exact same thing, you can bet they would be crucified. I'd bet many (though not all) of those who tend to defend the trainers using rollkur would be among the group of those railing on the random COTH poster for their very un-dressage-like riding.



Sjef is not a random rider.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:41 AM
bort 84 - well said. I have to completely agree with every word, except that I do not believe 'ugly' to ever be necessary :winkgrin: Otherwise though, excellent post.

JackieBlue
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:43 AM
Yes I don't have a problem with it..in the right hands it can be a teaching moment for the horse. Would I want to see the horse ridden like that every day 365 days a year NO. The horse does not look in pain or upset like I've said before many of you that can't sit the trot for your life or are really overweight is more cruel then what Sjef is doing...JUST my opinion;) Lack of turnout for many many dressage horses is more of a welfare issue then this.

Can someone please tell me what is being taught here? If this is a "teaching moment", what is the horse meant to take away from it?

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:43 AM
Really overweight people riding horses should be in your book just as cruel or and all those ammy's that can't sit the trot...Just sayin:lol::lol:

Perhaps it is, for some individuals. But that has no relation to Rollkur. None.

A horse does not have to appear stressed for something to not be beneficial (or even to be harmful) to it.

LauraKY
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:44 AM
Not defending anything...but, you all did notice that this video is from 2003? Seven years ago?

doccer
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:44 AM
Doccer, way to totally drive by the point.

Of the three, Totilas, Ravel, and Laura B's gelding...which of those three endured this sort of riding on their way to carrying their owners to Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals this week?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274896

what exactly is your point then? enlighten me please... and its not even about un-dressage like riding/training. It's general handling of people and animals...

call me dramatic :lol: first time i've posted about hyperflexion ever, and its been years... i had a moment ;)

sunridge1
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:46 AM
Well the horses look happy and sound and icing on the cake they win. My point is you have no evidence it is cruel it might not be your cup of tea or mine but just because you don't like it does not make it wrong. Now when unbiased science shows it does harm then I will be on your side...I'm all about facts not hyperbole.


erm...The Big Lick people use this exact form of defense for their training atrocities. lol

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:46 AM
Good post, Bort84. It's the exteme emotions and irrational comments that make me nuts, too.

Some of the extreme bending being used, I don't have a problem with...especially if it is a momentary and necessary correction. Head tied to the girth does concern me quite a lot. The funny thing is that when I watched that video, I found myself admiring Sjef's seat and position and wondering why, with his obvious skill, he is using this device.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:50 AM
Well here it is folks - If you lay down with dogs - you get up with fleas.
If the Dutch want this man as their Coach for Dressage - they are clearing laying down with the Dog (no insult Canines)!

The horse doesn't look happy and he's salivating like this because he can't breath correctly. If you don't think that's true then you absolutely don't know what the INSIDE of this horse looks like when being ridden this way.

Never looked at it that way (canine point) - good point, though I have never dismissed dressage or the dutch altogether simply because of a few riders. Just saying it is a good point though.

He especially cannot breathe or swallow correctly in a hand-dominated ride with his tongue being compressed down as it is. Being unable to lift his head further compounds the issue. There is a reason the poll is supposed to be the highest point with the head in front of the vertical. That is the position most beneficial to the horse's breathing, swallowing, musculature (no hyperextension of ligaments, etc), sight, mind, etc. Personally, the emotional aspect just rubs me the wrong way, perhaps the most. It is more than wrong in my books to force a horse by tying its head down. Dressage should be smooth, natural, harmonious.

katarine
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:51 AM
what exactly is your point then? enlighten me please... and its not even about un-dressage like riding/training. It's general handling of people and animals...

call me dramatic :lol: first time i've posted about hyperflexion ever, and its been years... i had a moment ;)


Answer the question: IF Sjef's video = modern dressage, then please enlighten me: Which of the three horses, Ravel, Toto, or Alf, or some combo of the three...three horses who medaled this week at WEG..THEN please let the world know, which one(s)- of those three- are ridden as Sjef is shown riding in the video linked previously in this thread...

After all, if Sjef=all modern, current,winning dressage- then the answer should be simple and obvious, no?

So, tell us.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:00 PM
I do not think the argument has been that Sjef=all modern, current, winning dressage, just that Sjef=much modern, current, winning dressage. Or enough to warrant attention. None is right.

Asking honestly here, but is Gal not a student of Anky? I just watched a youtube of him performing Rollkur (on Totilas) at a clinic, though not as forcefully as I have seen and not for quite such sustained periods, but it does personally make me doubt Rollkur has never been used on Totilas behind the scenes????? Like I said, honestly asking.

JackieBlue
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:02 PM
Can someone please tell me what is being taught here? If this is a "teaching moment", what is the horse meant to take away from it?

Anyone? The lesson being taught by tying the head to the girth? Really. I want to know. If this is a "teaching moment", what is being taught?

katarine
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:04 PM
I do not think the argument has been that Sjef=all modern, current, winning dressage, just that Sjef=much modern, current, winning dressage. Or enough to warrant attention. None is right.

Asking honestly here, but is Gal not a student of Anky? I just watched a youtube of him performing Rollkur (on Totilas) at a clinic, though not as forcefully as I have seen and not for quite such sustained periods, but it does personally make me doubt Rollkur has never been used on Totilas behind the scenes????? Like I said, honestly asking.

Actually, this is what I read, that is prompting the conversation between Doccer and me:

dressage is a joke... and i used to LOVE dressage. tying the head isnt training, hell, i'll tie my horses head to the girth tomoro and call it trained ... yeah sounds stupid

f*cking joke

That's a blanket statement. A statement I'm questioning.

mbm
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:04 PM
the teaching moment is" do as i say, no matter what or i will truss you up like a thanksgiving turkey until you do"

repeat as needed until horse has no will and will do as told .

doccer
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:06 PM
Answer the question: IF Sjef's video = modern dressage, then please enlighten me: Which of the three horses, Ravel, Toto, or Alf, or some combo of the three...three horses who medaled this week at WEG..THEN please let the world know, which one(s)- of those three- are ridden as Sjef is shown riding in the video linked previously in this thread...

After all, if Sjef=all modern, current,winning dressage- then the answer should be simple and obvious, no?

So, tell us.

A means to the end doesnt make it right... that means... the methods may vary to come to a similar outcome... doesnt make every method used pleasant.

common sense would dictate that... :yes:

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:08 PM
Does a horse have a will in competition?

I don't know any movement that isnt ridden every step, so what exactly do you think the horse is offering to the equation besides responsiveness and obedience?

I think some are more amicable, or trainable, but I don't for one second think they are joining hands to compete because they are interested in doing the test movements in that order.

katarine
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:09 PM
Why are you shying from answering the question?

Is it because none of them appear to have been ridden and trained in this manner...and they won at WEG?

If not, please enlighten us.

Druid Acres
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:10 PM
I didn't expect my comments to be well received because of the high emotional valence of this debate.


You get ten points for using the word valence in a sentence. It's more than just a window topping!

From Wiki:
"Valence, as used in psychology, especially in discussing emotions, means the intrinsic attractiveness (positive valence) or aversiveness (negative valence) of an event, object, or situation.[1] However, the term is also used to characterize and categorize specific emotions. For example, the emotions popularly referred to as "negative", such as anger and fear, have "negative valence". Joy has "positive valence". Positively valenced emotions are evoked by positively valenced events, objects, or situations."

Carry on... :)

mbm
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:11 PM
fwiw, Ravel came from Gals barn - i wont speculate beyond that.

Totilas has been seen to be rollkured in clinics....

<shrug>

redalter
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:13 PM
:
the teaching moment is" do as i say, no matter what or i will truss you up like a thanksgiving turkey until you do"

repeat as needed until horse has no will and will do as told .

Oh, please! I nearly spewed the tea on the keyboard!!:lol::lol::lol:


Also, ridgeback, point taken. But "and they win" okay, but again, at what cost. Is this the most horrible thing going on in the horseworld? No, but the alarming part is that many ( I have no idea how many) ULR's may be embracing this, and that it is ok to do at WEG in the warm up, so does this mean it is acceptable, mainstream, and might it devolve from here to something truly, unequivocally cruel? After all, the slippery slope and all that.

GoodyTwo
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:14 PM
Really, Ridgeback, could you be more ignorant?



Nope not at all...




Exactly what I thought. :yes:

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:15 PM
fwiw, Ravel came from Gals barn - i wont speculate beyond that.

Totilas has been seen to be rollkured in clinics....

<shrug>

And the result of it? Great horses with great attitudes and health.


Hmmm

mbp
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:16 PM
It seems that we are fixating on just one tree, or actually, just one branch of one tree.
Everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion of how horses should be treated. I was becoming more uncomfortable with the feeling that nothing EVER bad happens HERE on our soil. fixing my halo now ~

In this thread there's one tree, but spend a little time reviewing the different forums and threads and you'll see that all trees - including the halltree with hats hanging and xmas trees take their knocks. ;) Bits, saddles, drugs, shoeing, turnout, non-turnout, weight, tackless riding, tactless riding, less tack riding, etc. - pretty much everything under the sun gets its moment in the sun, for better or worse.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:16 PM
Actually, this is what I read, that is prompting the conversation between Doccer and me:

dressage is a joke... and i used to LOVE dressage. tying the head isnt training, hell, i'll tie my horses head to the girth tomoro and call it trained ... yeah sounds stupid

f*cking joke

That's a blanket statement. A statement I'm questioning.

Ok I understand. It's hard not to make those blanket statements sometimes though when you see the top riders practising such methods and wonder how it will trickled down. In addition, I see a lot of the crank and yank, spurs, and forceful methods - though not specifically Rollkur - at the lower and mid levels as well. Sooo, it can be difficult to not criticise the entire discipline when it appears to be going down the tubes. Is that how I ride dressage? Most certainly not. So I recognise that there are plenty others like me who train dressage in a classical sense. I think that is all Doccor is pointing out, that the discipline they love seems to be going down the tubes. That does not mean every dressage rider rides that way, just sometimes it seems most do. Perhaps I am wrong though, I don't mean to put words in Doccor's mouth :winkgrin:

GreyStreet
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:23 PM
Again, what's going on with calling amateur riders LEARNING to ride cruel?

Last time I checked no one was born knowing how to naturally sit the trot and correctly influence their horse with an independent seat. For most of us, that comes through training, practice, and HARD work. Unfortunately there are going to be moments in time when it doesn't all come together, but that's part of the learning process and promoting the improvement of the rider and horse as a team - so that the rider can in turn better influence the horse and ride more harmoniously.

Or isn't that what dressage is all about?

I'm sorry, but comparing a rider learning how to sit the trot and a trainer who should know better tying his horse's head to the girth is like comparing apples to oranges.

Gayla
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:25 PM
ridgeback - could not agree more!



OMG! :eek: Yes, this is a form of cruelty, too! If you can't sit the trot, please don't!! Save your horse, get off your bum, raise it, and post!




Ah, this one, too. Lack of turnout for any horse, for that matter. Horses are meant to MOVE, and they are herd animals! I don't care where my horses came from or how much they cost (or some that didn't cost much), my horses are HORSES first, and then they are my riding partners! I have had people come here and question, "what? your fei horses are often turned out 24/7? huh? I thought they were hot house flowers!". Yep, they all get treated the same - like horses should be - out in pastures or paddocks, and in herds when they can be.

Sorry - I got a little side tracked here. Back to the topic at hand!

This is a stupid defense. you don't excuse one thing because another is worse. As in: I don't think someone should be convicted of beating the crap out of that person because killing them would be a much worst crime. Just dumb. next, the problem is that this is dressage. We are not saying with our sport that our horses can jump higher or run faster or carry a rider in the most comfortable way. What is at the heart of dressage is that we are saying that we can train this huge beautiful animal to do these fantastic things. And train a language with the horse without force. Because with force there can be no beauty. With force there can be no beauty. We are saying to the world this is a dance that we choose to do together, not that I made him do it or I will hurt him. The very beauty of the sport is being lost. I think that eventing dressage looks better these days than GP dressage competitions. The event horses move freely and forward with some horsey thoughts in their brains. International dressage horses look like stiff, bunched up and contorted robots that are in misery. There are exceptions, but they are rare. A joyful display of a really forward horse that goes from piaffe to passage and doesn't have that over muscled and strained look is truly an inspired experience to watch for horse lovers. What I see in these pictures is basic, and brutish. Call it abuse if you want or not. But it is not beauty like when I have seen Klimke ride. Sad.

doccer
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:27 PM
Why are you shying from answering the question?

Is it because none of them appear to have been ridden and trained in this manner...and they won at WEG?

If not, please enlighten us.

because i'm not here to appease you :lol:

and really, you and me alike dont have a clue how these horses are trained on a regular basis ... but only a few photos/videos that lead us to believe its a regular part of their regime. A means to the end ...

so who are you to quiz me really... you could be a dressage gawd, and i'd still debate with you.

I still dont know if you're ok with the hyperflexion or not... i think you're not ok with it, but you havent made a clear point... cuz your debating me like your pro-hyperflexion :confused: ... yet you brought up books that are anti-hyperflexion...

atr
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:32 PM
Interesting that none of the top three horses at WEG today show any evidence of being ridden or warmed up using these kinds of extreme methods.

Look at what is actually succeeding, now. Look at the harmony between each horse and it's rider. Look at the amazing quality, tact and skill of the riders (let alone the amazing quality of the horses.)

That's what we should all be learning from and striving for, and applauding.

JackieBlue
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:35 PM
Ridgeback, where did you go?? What is to be learned during the "teaching moment" in question here?

bort84
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:37 PM
The funny thing is that when I watched that video, I found myself admiring Sjef's seat and position and wondering why, with his obvious skill, he is using this device.

Me too! That's how I feel about all of the top riders that use rollkur. I watch EG ride, and I think, why would you ever feel the need to use rollkur? Granted, I haven't seen as much rollkur footage or pics from him. Either he's very careful with his public warm ups with Totilas or he seems to use the technique with more moderation than maybe some of the others on the team.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:46 PM
Does a horse have a will in competition?

I don't know any movement that isnt ridden every step, so what exactly do you think the horse is offering to the equation besides responsiveness and obedience?

I think some are more amicable, or trainable, but I don't for one second think they are joining hands to compete because they are interested in doing the test movements in that order.

Short answer: they should. You should be able to take everything off your horse and still have a happy horse willing to happily do as you ask. A horse in partnership can enjoy competition as much as its rider.

Sure the horse might not be interested in doing the test movements in that particular order, but it can be interested in working with its rider to do said test movements. It might, y'know, actually enjoy being with its rider and using its body in an athletic sense!!

katarine
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:48 PM
because i'm not here to appease you :lol:

and really, you and me alike dont have a clue how these horses are trained on a regular basis ... but only a few photos/videos that lead us to believe its a regular part of their regime. A means to the end ...

so who are you to quiz me really... you could be a dressage gawd, and i'd still debate with you.

I still dont know if you're ok with the hyperflexion or not... i think you're not ok with it, but you havent made a clear point... cuz your debating me like your pro-hyperflexion :confused: ... yet you brought up books that are anti-hyperflexion...
I asked you a simple question.

You made a blanket statement that dressage is a f***ing joke.

I questioned that assertion. This is not personal. I didn't ask you 'who are you to question me'. I respect your right to your opinion, whomever you are. I am solely asking you to put your money where your mouth is. If the answer is, to you, so black and white, you could answer the question with regard to the three winning/medaling horses on the world stage this week. Instead you worry about what my answer is. You try to avert the direct question to an easier question about general handing methods. And, finally, why would my answer matter? If the 'truth' , the 'fact' is that dressage is a f***ing joke'...you would just answer the question about which of those three medaling, 2010 horses...are ridden in the manner demo'd by Sjef.

Your evasiveness would lead a reader to believe that perhaps I've questioned your oversimplification of the reality that is modern dressage. So now you're unhappily saying wait, are you with me or against me?

Why would that matter?

Are you willing to take a stand for your belief that dressage is a f***king joke?

If so, the answer is either:

one of them, if so, name:
two of them, if so, name:
All of them
None of them.

Pretty simple.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:50 PM
Interesting that none of the top three horses at WEG today show any evidence of being ridden or warmed up using these kinds of extreme methods.


Is that really true though??

doccer
Oct. 1, 2010, 12:57 PM
It's hard not to make those blanket statements sometimes though when you see the top riders practising I think that is all Doccor is pointing out, that the discipline they love seems to be going down the tubes. That does not mean every dressage rider rides that way, just sometimes it seems most do. Perhaps I am wrong though, I don't mean to put words in Doccor's mouth :winkgrin:

:yes: i think you understood the point lol

SmplySweet1021
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:04 PM
Not defending anything...but, you all did notice that this video is from 2003? Seven years ago?


That would be too easy for people to notice.

People enjoy bashing Sjef and the Dutch riders, not realizing that this video is very old, probably in the time where Rolkur was deemed okay by the FEI.

GoodyTwo
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:08 PM
That would be too easy for people to notice.

People enjoy bashing Sjef and the Dutch riders, not realizing that this video is very old, probably in the time where Rolkur was deemed okay by the FEI.




More like the FEI didn’t publish a position on rollkeur… and despite the age of the video, you can’t dispute the fact (based on photos from WEG) that many riders are still using rollkeur in their training system.

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:09 PM
That would be too easy for people to notice.

People enjoy bashing Sjef and the Dutch riders, not realizing that this video is very old, probably in the time where Rolkur was deemed okay by the FEI.

Good point. Although I don't like the head being tied to the girth, we also don't know the history of the horse. For all we know, he could have been a dangerous rogue. I would give Sjeff the benefit of the doubt and want to know the history of the horse, reasoning behind this device, and current status of the horse.

Druid, I am a linguistics/languages geek, so I loved your post. :)

SillyHorse
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:20 PM
Ridgeback, where did you go?? What is to be learned during the "teaching moment" in question here?
I'd like to know that, too. Can anyone who defends this practice answer this question? What is the horse learning during this "teaching moment" that sometimes lasts 15, 20, or 30 minutes?

ZiggyStardust
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:23 PM
Call me suspicious as that video is a few seconds each way, so I'm not buying the whole screaming and crying some cothers are doing.

It's just an act,to freak out about that mini video of a horse extra round IMO.


I smell another re-branding opportunity. Extra round sounds even better than LDR.

Then again, what some call extra round, others may call extra stupid.

MLK1
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:29 PM
Sillyhorse,

Ridgeback explained on another thread that it was scientifically proven to strengthen the horses core but when we questioned about the research and expert that he said proved this, he changed his mind and started saying it was being used as a correction. My reply to that was, these horses need to be corrected for up to 30 min to an hour? :uhoh:

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:32 PM
Again, what's going on with calling amateur riders LEARNING to ride cruel?

Last time I checked no one was born knowing how to naturally sit the trot and correctly influence their horse with an independent seat. For most of us, that comes through training, practice, and HARD work. Unfortunately there are going to be moments in time when it doesn't all come together, but that's part of the learning process and promoting the improvement of the rider and horse as a team - so that the rider can in turn better influence the horse and ride more harmoniously.

Or isn't that what dressage is all about?

I'm sorry, but comparing a rider learning how to sit the trot and a trainer who should know better tying his horse's head to the girth is like comparing apples to oranges.

You should be able to ride well I rode jumpers and never was taught to sit the trot yet because I was a good rider sitting the trot was not difficult what I usually see is women who either start riding as an adult or were never really good as kids and pick it back up as an adult. The best thing a trainer can do for you is put you on the lunge and take your irons away..

As for sjef having a training moment...well if you have a young horse that you'd like for them to stretch down like that and you don't want to fight with them in the mouth this would be a much softer way to go..I don't care if you agree with me :lol:

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:38 PM
I know that some of the more tense horses need to start out down and round for a while before they really start to get down to business.

I ride my own horse very round in circle work (I dont need to force it, just keep a nice bend) and he starts to snort out his tension and I let him out until he is stretched long at all gaits.

Poll at the highest point all of the time isnt very good for flexibility obviously.

I think the "warm up" video people posted recently that everyone was so happy about showed quite a bit of behind the verticle curling and a round frame before the horse was brought back up to the poll at the highest point.

The more extreme the roundness the more I assume that horse carries tension.

No big deal.

People need to get out in the world more often.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:39 PM
Sillyhorse,

Ridgeback explained on another thread that it was scientifically proven to strengthen the horses core but when we questioned about the research and expert that he said proved this, he changed his mind and started saying it was being used as a correction. My reply to that was, these horses need to be corrected for up to 30 min to an hour? :uhoh:

First I'm a SHE and secondly if you have not heard of Dr. Hillary Clayton and her research maybe you might not be as informed as you think. .I said sometimes horses can be difficult and sometimes they make things more difficult then other days so sometimes you use more hand or leg or whatever...Maybe ya'll should spend your hard earned money and have someone like Dr. Hillary Clayton a world renowed vet do the research on Rollkur/ldr. I for one would love to know if it restricts the breathing since so many of you think it does.
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/personnel/dr-hilary-clayton

doccer
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:39 PM
Your evasiveness would lead a reader to believe that perhaps I've questioned your oversimplification of the reality that is modern dressage. So now you're unhappily saying wait, are you with me or against me?

Why would that matter?

Are you willing to take a stand for your belief that dressage is a f***king joke?

If so, the answer is either:

one of them, if so, name:
two of them, if so, name:
All of them
None of them.

Pretty simple.

the statement that dressage is a joke... based on the threads/links from this forum, i'm sure you can find at least 3 videos/pictures :yes: do you really need me to post links? cuz i dont know how! lol

i wasnt bashing names... but 3 names coming up on this forum... anky, sjef and Adelinde Cornelissen. all high profile riders... becoming more of a joke every week as we watch beginners who think its acceptable simply becuz people are jumping on the figurative bandwagon.

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:44 PM
i wasnt bashing names... but 3 names coming up on this forum... anky, sjef and Adelinde Cornelissen. all high profile riders... becoming more of a joke every week as we watch beginners who think its acceptable simply becuz people are jumping on the figurative bandwagon.

Where are you seeing these beginners who are trying to use rollkur? The beginners I see are challenged enough just trying to learn to stay balanced in the saddle and hold the reins. The last thing they are thinking about--or are even aware of--is rollkur.

Coppers mom
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:46 PM
I know this isn't going to go over well, but....

Stop being so ridiculous.

The horses head isn't tied to his chest. Sjef is using draw reins. He can let the head come up, go down, whatever. Right, wrong or indifferent, the horse isn't tied in place.

Yes fatties and those who can't sit and those who have no feel for the mouth are more abusive. Those horses actually show discomfort: sore backs, pinned ears, dead/open mouths, wringing tails, etc. Horses don't do GP and win when they're hurting. I guarantee that 90% of the lower level, "pampered" and "well taken care of" horses are more uncomfortable than these horses. Don't believe me? Hang out and watch a training level group.

The video is 18 seconds of SLOW MOTION. The videos literally shows SEVEN strides. Seven strides out of a whole ride, which was probably at least an hour long.

And do I even need to point out how stupid it is to think that this could possibly be about not liking the dutch? I lurk on all of these threads, and I'm pretty sure I've never read anything along the lines of "those dirty dutch, all abusive and talking funny". It's all about the treatment of the horse by one individual. Just because the group of individuals under fire just happen to be from the same area doesn't make it a nationality thing.

Quit your whining and go ride your ponies. Try not to bounce or lock your elbows, lest someone come video you and plaster your abuse all over the internet.

But, at least then it'd be a little more realistic. :rolleyes:

JackieBlue
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:47 PM
You should be able to ride well I rode jumpers and never was taught to sit the trot yet because I was a good rider sitting the trot was not difficult what I usually see is women who either start riding as an adult or were never really good as kids and pick it back up as an adult. The best thing a trainer can do for you is put you on the lunge and take your irons away..

As for sjef having a training moment...well if you have a young horse that you'd like for them to stretch down like that and you don't want to fight with them in the mouth this would be a much softer way to go..I don't care if you agree with me :lol:

Okay, but what have they LEARNED? And wasn't the horse in the video at a competition and likely not a greenie? Here's why I'm confused...If I wanted to teach my horse to stand on three legs for 10 minutes at a time I could scotch hobble him and then untie him after 10 minutes or so. But what did he learn? Maybe that Mom's a little off and not to be trusted, but not a darn thing about holding his leg up. Maybe after I did this to him over and over again he'd start standing around on three legs to avoid the scotch hobble, but he'd move me from the "maybe a little off" file to the "yep, f*cked in the head" file. It seems an accurate analogy to me if you're looking at tying the head down as a way to teach a horse to "stretch down". Maybe you meant something different?

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:48 PM
Sillyhorse,

Ridgeback explained on another thread that it was scientifically proven to strengthen the horses core but when we questioned about the research and expert that he said proved this, he changed his mind and started saying it was being used as a correction. My reply to that was, these horses need to be corrected for up to 30 min to an hour? :uhoh:

I fail to understand how Rollkur could possibly strengthen the horse's core because riding a horse deep hyperextends the muscle groups and ligaments of the back and neck and does not allow for the horse to properly get beneath itself and use its core. If it cannot properly use its core, how can it strengthen its core??

Anyways, in my quick little search for research to prove that Rollkur strengthened core, I came across this post, which I found to be pretty interesting and informative:
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33470

GreyStreet
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:50 PM
Ah, okay. It makes perfect sense. So every top rider who may have competed in another discipline just KNEW how to ride the sitting trot straight away, and I suppose every top dressage rider today just came up the ranks automatically knowing how to sit correctly and how to influence the horse using the correct aids at the correct time.

Some people are better at riding the sitting trot right away than others - that doesn't mean that the whole gaggle of riders working to move from training to first is never going to learn how to effectively sit.

I'm getting really, really tired of the amateur bashing - fortunately it's just spouted off by a couple of people on this board. Most others - whether they disagree or not with rollkur, at least seem to be sticking to a higher level of discussion and keeping away from being too entirely snarky.

I would never disparage anyone learning to ride or working to move up the levels in a positive way - people who do make me question their own self esteem.

I have worked damn hard in my riding to improve myself and the partnership with my horse. I eat, sleep and breathe how to become a better rider. I support the local grassroots shows, buy the books, buy the magazines, train hard with my instructor, watch all I can of riders I admire, and seek to learn as much as possible.

I may never make it to the caliber of competition and training we're discussing but I can damn well give my opinion on it.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:54 PM
You should be able to ride well I rode jumpers and never was taught to sit the trot yet because I was a good rider sitting the trot was not difficult what I usually see is women who either start riding as an adult or were never really good as kids and pick it back up as an adult. The best thing a trainer can do for you is put you on the lunge and take your irons away..

As for sjef having a training moment...well if you have a young horse that you'd like for them to stretch down like that and you don't want to fight with them in the mouth this would be a much softer way to go..I don't care if you agree with me :lol:

I see plenty of riders who have yet to learn the sitting trot (not just women, either!!) but they are honestly trying and are not intentionally harming their horses throughout the process. Everyone has to learn and everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone can right off the bat sit the trot as easily as you, ridgeback, just as some clearly cannot grasp the concept of punctuation at the drop of a hat :winkgrin: It is just a part of the learning process and not comparable to Rollkur whatsoever.

Are you saying the only way to teach a young horse to stretch down without fighting is to tie their head down? You do not think they will fight their head being tied? Maybe if they are putting up a fight, it is for a reason...no?

Blue Domino
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:54 PM
Wow drama:) If you think this is cruel fat people trying to ride is cruel too.

Not nearly as cruel as skinny people with sharp bony butts sticking in a horses back.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:56 PM
I know that some of the more tense horses need to start out down and round for a while before they really start to get down to business.

I ride my own horse very round in circle work (I dont need to force it, just keep a nice bend) and he starts to snort out his tension and I let him out until he is stretched long at all gaits.

Poll at the highest point all of the time isnt very good for flexibility obviously.

I think the "warm up" video people posted recently that everyone was so happy about showed quite a bit of behind the verticle curling and a round frame before the horse was brought back up to the poll at the highest point.

The more extreme the roundness the more I assume that horse carries tension.

No big deal.

People need to get out in the world more often.

Need to?? There are other ways of releasing tension. I am not criticising how you work your horses however I am just pointing out that Rollkur is not the only way to work out tension in a horse.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:57 PM
I fail to understand how Rollkur could possibly strengthen the horse's core because riding a horse deep hyperextends the muscle groups and ligaments of the back and neck and does not allow for the horse to properly get beneath itself and use its core. If it cannot properly use its core, how can it strengthen its core??

Anyways, in my quick little search for research to prove that Rollkur strengthened core, I came across this post, which I found to be pretty interesting and informative:
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33470

Dr. Hillary Clayton has shown so far with her research that the nose to the chest along with stretches taking the nose all the way back to the stifle and hip builds the core.. What we don't know is if longer periods has any adverse affect.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:57 PM
Not nearly as cruel as skinny people with sharp bony butts sticking in a horses back.

If they are riding bareback:D

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 01:59 PM
Okay, but what have they LEARNED? And wasn't the horse in the video at a competition and likely not a greenie? Here's why I'm confused...If I wanted to teach my horse to stand on three legs for 10 minutes at a time I could scotch hobble him and then untie him after 10 minutes or so. But what did he learn? Maybe that Mom's a little off and not to be trusted, but not a darn thing about holding his leg up. Maybe after I did this to him over and over again he'd start standing around on three legs to avoid the scotch hobble, but he'd move me from the "maybe a little off" file to the "yep, f*cked in the head" file. It seems an accurate analogy to me if you're looking at tying the head down as a way to teach a horse to "stretch down". Maybe you meant something different?


What makes you think it was at a competition? Looks like he's schooling him in an indoor. Your analogy does not work for me.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:02 PM
Dr. Hillary Clayton has shown so far with her research that the nose to the chest along with stretches taking the nose all the way back to the stifle and hip builds the core.. What we don't know is if longer periods has any adverse affect.

And while the horse is moving, with weight on its back? For sustained periods? What about when it is done forcefully versus softly? Ridgeback you posted a link to Clayton's bio but I did not see a link to any of her research?? Did I miss it?

Coppers mom
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:03 PM
Ah, okay. It makes perfect sense. So every top rider who may have competed in another discipline just KNEW how to ride the sitting trot straight away, and I suppose every top dressage rider today just came up the ranks automatically knowing how to sit correctly and how to influence the horse using the correct aids at the correct time.

Some people are better at riding the sitting trot right away than others - that doesn't mean that the whole gaggle of riders working to move from training to first is never going to learn how to effectively sit.

I'm getting really, really tired of the amateur bashing - fortunately it's just spouted off by a couple of people on this board. Most others - whether they disagree or not with rollkur, at least seem to be sticking to a higher level of discussion and keeping away from being too entirely snarky.

I would never disparage anyone learning to ride or working to move up the levels in a positive way - people who do make me question their own self esteem.
I think the bashing of amateurs is more of a reality check, than an actual stab at amateurs.

You have people on this board who go nuts, absolutely ape sh!t over RK. But I guarantee you that their horse has a sore back, or opens his mouth while they're riding because they don't have a pinky nail of the talent that the posted riders have. I don't point this out to show that amateurs suck and that I'm holier than thou, but to show that simple, every day, "no big deal" things that amateurs (re: 90% of people) do would be considered more abusive and causes the horse more discomfort than RK does if we really looked into true discomfort of the horse.

I have a friend who actually trained with Anky, who put it very well, though I'll have to clean it up a little: "I was over there, and there wasn't a single sore back, a single stiff hock, a single unhappy horse. Come over here, and it's just whining and moaning. They point the finger while their own horse has a sore back or bad hocks because they can't do something as simple as fit a saddle correctly, let alone ride".

Harsh, but true. No one has to be perfect, but it'd be nice if people were a little more realistic about things.

JackieBlue
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:07 PM
What makes you think it was at a competition? Looks like he's schooling him in an indoor. Your analogy does not work for me.


Fair enough. Your explanation of what a horse might be meant to learn during a teaching moment such as that didn't work for me. Can you explain better what you meant? What is the horse meant to LEARN from being forcibly restrained in the demonstrated position? You have made it clear you find this an acceptable training method. I get that. I just want to know why. It doesn't make any sense to me as a training method, acceptable or not. Please tell me what I am missing. IF you did this with your own horse, WHY would you be doing it and what would you expect your horse to LEARN from it?

Bogey2
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:09 PM
No wonder the eventing people stay away from this forum...I think you need to take the cause up over there as well. They don't know what they are missing!:winkgrin:

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:09 PM
And while the horse is moving, with weight on its back? For sustained periods? What about when it is done forcefully versus softly? Ridgeback you posted a link to Clayton's bio but I did not see a link to any of her research?? Did I miss it?

I went to the vet seminar they held here and that is when she showed what they did and the computer images that showed what it does to the horses core and neck. Does nothing to the middle of the neck like some think. I agree this needs to be looked at naturalequus and Dr. Clayton said she hopes to study it.$$$. I'm just tired of people that look at this issue completely black and white without any supporting scientific evidence. Because you or others think it is cruel(and who knows maybe they will show that) it does not make it automaticlly right. That is what is so frustrating. My horses are not always happy hell I'm not always happy so to label something cruel because sometimes the horse is pissed off or cranky is just NOVICE IMO.

MLK1
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:09 PM
Naturalequus,

Her studies are without a rider, they sound more like carrot type stretch exercises.

jenm
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:11 PM
Sick. Wrong. Cruel. Inhumane.

In a double bridle with the head tied down?? Heck, in any bridle with the head tied down? Flipping unbelievable!! I wonder if this is how they all usually train behind closed door?

Makes me want to vomit. :mad:

Pardon my ignorance, but why are riders allowed to get away with this, especially after there are so many photos and videos documenting how awful it is?

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:11 PM
I went to the vet seminar they held here and that is when she showed what they did and the computer images that showed what it does to the horses core and neck. Does nothing to the middle of the neck like some think. I agree this needs to be looked at naturalequus and Dr. Clayton said she hopes to study it.$$$. I'm just tired of people that look at this issue completely black and white without any supporting scientific evidence. Because you or others think it is cruel(and who knows maybe they will show that) it does not make it automaticlly right. That is what is so frustrating. My horses are not always happy hell I'm not always happy so to label something cruel because sometimes the horse is pissed off or cranky is just NOVICE IMO.

Well obviously :) We see plenty of proper muscling on these horses that are "abused". We also see horses sound for a LONG time in competition, and though some are more tense then others by nature, they seem to do the job pretty obediently and what a job it is.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:11 PM
Fair enough. Your explanation of what a horse might be meant to learn during a teaching moment such as that didn't work for me. Can you explain better what you meant? What is the horse meant to LEARN from being forcibly restrained in the demonstrated position? You have made it clear you find this an acceptable training method. I get that. I just want to know why. It doesn't make any sense to me as a training method, acceptable or not. Please tell me what I am missing. IF you did this with your own horse, WHY would you be doing it and what would you expect your horse to LEARN from it?

Jackie I don't feel I need to convince you of anything. I would be seriously surprised if that horse is tied that way...if so he could get really hurt that way. I cannot tell in that video.

JackieBlue
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:18 PM
Jackie I don't feel I need to convince you of anything. I would be seriously surprised if that horse is tied that way...if so he could get really hurt that way. I cannot tell in that video.


What??? I didn't ask you to convince me of anything. This is a public forum that I visit because of the wealth of information it can be. You seem to strongly believe that the riding seen in the video is A-OK, useful training and, as you said yourself, a teaching moment. I merely asked you what was being taught and I've yet to receive an answer. And now I feel you're getting a bit touchy with me and that makes me really wonder why you're defending this or what it is you're really defending. :confused:

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:20 PM
I fail to understand how Rollkur could possibly strengthen the horse's core because riding a horse deep hyperextends the muscle groups and ligaments of the back and neck and does not allow for the horse to properly get beneath itself and use its core. If it cannot properly use its core, how can it strengthen its core??



For a horse to really lift its back, he has to use his abs, so, riding a horse LDR or RK will help develop the horse's abs (core) if the horse is ridden energetically from back to front. Climbing hills will accomplish the same thing and is why a number of riders involved in cross training choose hill climbing to develop their horse's core strength.

Edited to add that there was a nice YouTube of Steffen Peters warming up Ravel at home (I'll try to find it) that shows him riding Ravel LDR. The horse is wonderfully supple and elastic. You will also notice that he has a superb topline.

Can't find it, and it occurred to me that it might be on the Training OnLine site. Anyway, you can sometimes click on various videos and see 3-4 minute samplings. Meanwhile, maybe someone else who has also seen this can provide the link. I just think it's a good example of the benefits of LDR work.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:23 PM
Well obviously :) We see plenty of proper muscling on these horses that are "abused". We also see horses sound for a LONG time in competition, and though some are more tense then others by nature, they seem to do the job pretty obediently and what a job it is.

And I get to go see some of those abused horses tonight at the freestyle:) camera in hand.

ridgeback
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:24 PM
What??? I didn't ask you to convince me of anything. This is a public forum that I visit because of the wealth of information it can be. You seem to strongly believe that the riding seen in the video is A-OK, useful training and, as you said yourself, a teaching moment. I merely asked you what was being taught and I've yet to receive an answer. And now I feel you're getting a bit touchy with me and that makes me really wonder why you're defending this or what it is you're really defending. :confused:

I just want facts not hyperbole. What does 18seconds tell you...We don't agree period...it's all good that is what makes the world go around:)

OscarOscar
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:36 PM
I live in Lexington and am now afraid that I might inadvertantly go for a lesson with Ridgeback who is apparently professing to be a "professional" in this area (see disparging remarks about amateurs). YIKES.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:42 PM
I went to the vet seminar they held here and that is when she showed what they did and the computer images that showed what it does to the horses core and neck. Does nothing to the middle of the neck like some think. I agree this needs to be looked at naturalequus and Dr. Clayton said she hopes to study it.$$$. I'm just tired of people that look at this issue completely black and white without any supporting scientific evidence. Because you or others think it is cruel(and who knows maybe they will show that) it does not make it automaticlly right. That is what is so frustrating. My horses are not always happy hell I'm not always happy so to label something cruel because sometimes the horse is pissed off or cranky is just NOVICE IMO.

There is supporting scientific evidence that it hyperextends ligaments and muscles that then prevent the horse from effectively carrying its rider without tension, just based on the biomechanics of the horse. Tension leads to physical stress and excessive wear and tear. There is also scientific evidence that such a frame limits the horse's breathing and also their sight.

Honestly if you are working with a developed (not a greenie) horse in a harmonious fashion, they won't be pissy or cranky and especially not for sustained periods of time.

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:46 PM
Naturalequus, can you provide me with a link to this information?

carolprudm
Oct. 1, 2010, 02:57 PM
Dr. Hillary Clayton has shown so far with her research that the nose to the chest along with stretches taking the nose all the way back to the stifle and hip builds the core.. What we don't know is if longer periods has any adverse affect.

I have seen some of her work and the horse is asked to stretch but never forced or HELD in a stretched position.

Try this:
Stand up with your feet slightly less than shoulder width apart. Keeping your knees straight reach down and try to touch your toes.

I'm a 61 year old overweight ammy and I can do this so I'm sure you won't have any trouble at all. :D

Now, once you have stretched as far as you can have someone tie your wrists to your ankles so you can't move.

How long do you think it will take before your muscles are screaming?

Since you probably won't see my point I will explain it to you. The issue isn't the stretch of itself, it is the lack of release.

Further since this sustained stretch is not maintained by the contraction of your core but rather by whatever is holding your wrists to your ankles it's not doing a darn thing to strengthen it either.

If you don't believe me, lie on the floor, press the small of your back flat on the floor extend your legs out straight and lift your heels about 6 inches off the floor. Use your abs to keep them there.

Feel the difference? Much less stretch and ROM but much more use of your core.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:05 PM
Naturalequus,

Her studies are without a rider, they sound more like carrot type stretch exercises.

See that sounds like it could be great stretching for the horse - but that is not Rollkur. I doubt most individuals here object to a horse being softly asked to momentarily stretch its nose to its chest for a moment or two. It is the forceful submission where the horse is physically forced to hold a hyperflexed frame for sustained periods - and still carry a rider, that rubs me the wrong way. Not a simple carrot stretch, by any means, or even if the horse were softly asked to hold a Rollkur frame for a stride or two.

I agree it is highly likely a horse doing a carrot stretch nose to chest repeatedly is going to activate the core, same as say a crunch would work for a human. However it is the action, the motion of the stretch, that would activate the core, not, in my estimation (just based on the biomechanics), the horse being held forcefully in said position then asked to work hard with weight on its back. When the back and neck are maintained in a static hyperflexed frame, it does not seem possible for the core to be activated as much as it could be if the horse were in full collection in a poll-highest frame, and without the negative repercussions of a sustained Rollkur frame.

bort84
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:10 PM
A couple of points from someone who does NOT like rollkur but also doesn't think it's abusive or incredibly physically damaging in the grand scheme of things:

1) On amateur bashing: this is usually (as Coppers Mom pointed out) to try to bring people back to reality. For those that consider rollkur "abuse" or "cruelty," compare what the rollkured horse is going through to what a lesson horse is going through while trying to teach a heavy handed rider to post. Compare rollkur to when you see well-intentioned but poor-riding amateurs (or pros, for that matter) who are overmounted, compensate with a full bridle, and then bounce away at the extended trot while hauling on the mouth to keep their balance.

Yes, rollkur is done knowingly by the trainer, while the ammy/pro with good intentions but poor riding skills is doing the very best they can and with a heart full of love and head full of good intentions. Do you think the horse can tell the difference (or cares)? No.

So the point is, to call rollkur abusive or cruel means you may be blowing things slightly out of proportion. Is it an ugly training method that seems to many to go against the principles of dressage? Yes. Is it more "abusive" and "damaging" to horses than a lot of the other things people put them through in the course of everyday riding, training, and learning? Probably not. Does that mean we shouldn't continue to speak out about not liking the method? No, but we should do it with clear heads and valid arguments.

2) On "scientific studies" and the like: Do we really need scientific studies now to tell us what is okay to do to our horses? I can use my eyes and my background riding and training to know what I feel is appropriate for the circumstances and what is not. I don't need someone to run a study to let me know what is acceptable to me. So I don't care if they do find rollkur has no physical side effects relative to what horses do in training every day - I don't think it's a good technique.

Growing up riding saddle seat and working for a few trainers, I've seen numerous things done to horses that I didn't approve of - there are still more people than I'd like to admit in that industry that are very happy to take shortcuts that scream poor horsemanship (one of the reasons I switched my focus to dressage). However, many of these horses were sound and happy before the questionable training and stayed sound and happy throughout the training. Many of them even won lots of blues at big shows. The trainers were often respected in the industry and were nice people who loved their horses. Does that make the method okay?

3) I guess I just don't see the need for Sjef to have the horse's head tied to the girth in this video (and I've looked at it a few times, and I do think it's more of a tie down situation than draw reins - the quality is pretty crappy though, so I could be wrong). Granted, the tie downs are not so tight that the horse cannot raise his head a bit - they look like they'll only come into effect if the horse raises his head a bit more. However, Sjef already has him in a curb bit, so what the heck? Those tie downs make it pretty clear he's not going to let the horse's head up much at all, though I'm sure they're quick to take off once this "teaching period" is over.

Anyway, I don't think this means Sjef should be burned at the stake with all of his followers, but I really wish the very top names in our sport would stick to methods that are more in line with dressage ideals and avoid the shortcut gimmicky methods we so often see in other disciplines.

4) No, I don't think this is the end of dressage as we know it = ) I still think dressage has some of the best horsemen in the business and has the right idea the majority of the time.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:10 PM
For a horse to really lift its back, he has to use his abs, so, riding a horse LDR or RK will help develop the horse's abs (core) if the horse is ridden energetically from back to front. Climbing hills will accomplish the same thing and is why a number of riders involved in cross training choose hill climbing to develop their horse's core strength.

Edited to add that there was a nice YouTube of Steffen Peters warming up Ravel at home (I'll try to find it) that shows him riding Ravel LDR. The horse is wonderfully supple and elastic. You will also notice that he has a superb topline.

Can't find it, and it occurred to me that it might be on the Training OnLine site. Anyway, you can sometimes click on various videos and see 3-4 minute samplings. Meanwhile, maybe someone else who has also seen this can provide the link. I just think it's a good example of the benefits of LDR work.

A horse in a RK frame (nose to chest) is hyperextending its longissimus therefore it cannot actively use its abs and pull its hindquarters beneath it properly - he isn't working back to front that way, it is physically impossible. Climbing hills forces the horse to engage from behind and lift its abs, not hyperextend its neck and back.

I have seen the Peters warmup and absolutely agree with you; LDR such as Peters demonstrates is not my concern. My concern is RK as is practised by Anky or as demonstrated in the Blue Tongue video.

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:11 PM
It's the assumption that people are holding their horses by force for prolonged periods in LDR or RK that we diverge. If these riders really are *forcibly* keeping their horses in that posture for prolonged periods, then shame on them. However, asking the horse to come deep and giving with the reins while keeping him energetically forward is a different story all together. A method I utilize and with good results.

Velvet
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:12 PM
Haven't you all heard? Sjef no longer does rollkur, he now only does LDR. :rolleyes:

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:12 PM
Naturalequus, can you provide me with a link to this information?

Sustainable Dressage has a ton of info, as does the book Tug of War. Both lay out the biomechanics of the horse and what I explained.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:20 PM
It's the assumption that people are holding their horses by force for prolonged periods in LDR or RK that we diverge. If these riders really are *forcibly* keeping their horses in that posture for prolonged periods, then shame on them. However, asking the horse to come deep and giving with the reins while keeping him energetically forward is a different story all together. A method I utilize and with good results.

Of course it is. Asking the horse to come deep and giving with the reins for a stride or two is beneficial at best and doing no harm at worst.

I think the majority of individuals' problem here is with riders who ARE forcing their horses into such a position for sustained periods of time. They do it either to force the horse to emotionally and mentally submit or in the name of stretching said horse (I have heard it both ways). However over-stretching the horse and then forcing it to hold the position forces the horse to hold the rider's weight via tension in the back. The video clip that is the foundation of this thread exhibits such riding - the horse's head is being forced down.

carolprudm
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:20 PM
Haven't you all heard? Sjef no longer does rollkur, he now only does LDR. :rolleyes:

:lol:

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:22 PM
Sustainable Dressage has a ton of info, as does the book Tug of War. Both lay out the biomechanics of the horse and what I explained.

No, I am aware of that site and book. I'm looking peer-reviewed scientific articles. Studies with concrete evidence done by experts regarding rollkur's harm/or lack of.

spirithorse
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:39 PM
LDL does not negatively impact the neck, shoulders and back while LDR does apply a distinct negative impact.

LDR's impact is negative because the horse is being placed into a frame in which the atlas joint can no longer be soft and supple with longitudinal flexion nor lateral flexion.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:46 PM
I have found a few suggestive studies online however lost them all when my last computer died without any warning :( Sorry, you will have to find them yourself.

There is not much evidence and research to support the harm Rollkur does yet (as I am sure you are aware) except to understand the biomechanics of the horse and thus how it likely does cause harm. For example, it is obvious a horse's vision is impaired in such a frame and it only makes sense their breathing is restricted as well (I have found numerous studies indicating as such - that one you should find no problem). If their muscles and ligaments are hyperextended for a long period of time, it only makes sense there is going to be some extra wear and tear. Throw weight on top of that and thus force the horse to tense its back to carry said weight - and do it excessively, and of course there is going to be extra wear and tear over and above the norm.

The rest of the evidence is provided in the horse. Croup-high, tense, ears back, tail simulating a helicopter, worried eyes - that is not a happy horse. And it does not take rocket science to figure out that forcing a horse into a submissive position using hard hands is going to cause emotional and mental damage.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:48 PM
LDL does not negatively impact the neck, shoulders and back while LDR does apply a distinct negative impact.

LDR's impact is negative because the horse is being placed into a frame in which the atlas joint can no longer be soft and supple with longitudinal flexion nor lateral flexion.

LDR, as Steffan Peters demonstrates on Ravel, is different from Rollkur. I encourage you to watch Peters' warmup video clip to see the difference between a soft and relaxed warmup and a forced frame that creates tension (ie. Blue Tongue).

ETA: Sorry, I think your 'LDL' equates to my definition of 'LDR', haha. I do not support 'LDR' as re-branded 'RK' being forcefully held for sustained periods of time. I think the 'correct' and 'original' definition of 'LDR' is what you are calling 'LDL', which is what I was describing in the Peters' video. Sorry, missed the difference in the 'L' and 'R'. Too many hours in front of a computer with no horse time out here to balance me out :winkgrin:

suzy
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:54 PM
it only makes sense

Well, not really. This is why I think studies are important. Everything you said in your post is opinion. You may be proved to be correct eventually but, until then, you should not expect people to agree and not ask questions. ;)

spirithorse
Oct. 1, 2010, 03:55 PM
Naturalequus;
I am from SD County and have personally observed Mr. Peters on numerous occassions. He does try and do better than alot of the riders, however, LDR, wherein the mouth is brought rearward at or behind the vertical, does physically impare the atlas joint. When that occurs the rider is negatively impacting the shoulders, torso and back; not always dramatically but still negatively.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2010, 04:01 PM
The rest of the evidence is provided in the horse. Croup-high, tense, ears back, tail simulating a helicopter, worried eyes - that is not a happy horse. And it does not take rocket science to figure out that forcing a horse into a submissive position using hard hands is going to cause emotional and mental damage.


But here we see none of that in this video. So where does that leave your supportive evidence?

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 04:04 PM
Well, not really. This is why I think studies are important. Everything you said in your post is opinion. You may be proved to be correct eventually but, until then, you should not expect people to agree and not ask questions. ;)

It is not my opinion it is vet and expert opinion based on study of the biomechanics of the horse as well as their personal experiences. I happen to agree with it based on the information they presented.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 04:05 PM
Naturalequus;
I am from SD County and have personally observed Mr. Peters on numerous occassions. He does try and do better than alot of the riders, however, LDR, wherein the mouth is brought rearward at or behind the vertical, does physically impare the atlas joint. When that occurs the rider is negatively impacting the shoulders, torso and back; not always dramatically but still negatively.

If you mean LDR as in Rollkur (which is what you seem to describe), then yes, I agree.

spirithorse
Oct. 1, 2010, 04:06 PM
Nomiomi1;
The top line of the neck is so tight you could bounce a rubber band off it...that is evidence enough. The horse is being 'forced' into such a tight rigid frame that it cannot respond...........

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 04:09 PM
But here we see none of that in this video. So where does that leave your supportive evidence?

It's pretty short to observe much, but riding a horse in a RK frame for a sustained period, as this video clip suggests, is going to produce what I described. A horse forced and furthermore forced into hyperflexion has to tense its body to hold the weight of a rider and is going to be uncomfortable holding such an extreme frame for an extended period of time.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2010, 04:11 PM
And by this time in the video you think it's not been very long?

If he was tied down (like people assume) then he would be showing said signs right?


I think you assume far too much.

naturalequus
Oct. 1, 2010, 07:59 PM
If he were forced into a frame for sustained periods of time yes, eventually he is going to start showing signs of tension and resistance. Same as any of the horses we've seen compete who are trained thusly and all the horses I see at my barn whose heads are tied down via tie downs or draw reins.

JackieBlue
Oct. 1, 2010, 09:42 PM
I just want facts not hyperbole. What does 18seconds tell you...We don't agree period...it's all good that is what makes the world go around:)

What don't we agree on? I don't believe I've expressed much of an opinion. I've only asked you on what information you base yours. Now I'm really confused.

Bats79
Oct. 2, 2010, 07:05 AM
so - this is starting to feel very ethnocentric - ie: hate the dutch
May I suggest that we look to the abuse on our home soil and start the witch hunt on the reiners, western pleasure, and the padded gaited horses? I've seen a hunter trainer doing worse with a horse in pelham and draw reins. Let's not get so single minded as to not weigh this against abuse that occurs here every day.

I'm Australian - I hate seeing bad reining, western pleasure training, we don't have the gaited horses.

I despise hyperflexion training that has now been relabled LDR. So does my father and because he is Dutch it embarrases him that the most prominent exponents are Dutch. Hardly ethnocentric.

Xpression
Oct. 2, 2010, 11:29 AM
The real issue lies in the amateurs. People who see these methods and hope to recreate them.

I own a horse that was previously ridden by a Dutch rider, and he was overflexed on a regular basis. Now, we have issues with him holding his breath, and then gasping for air. When he gasps, he finally gives and becomes less tense, but only for a milisecond. He is also very strong in the bridle and his canter gets four-beaty because he has not learned to sit.

Sannois
Oct. 2, 2010, 04:43 PM
As many years as I have ridden and have admired and strived to follow the training scale of Dressage, I cannot understand this method. IT fly's in the face of classical methods, and That I feel is the reason these threads arise over and over.

farmgirl88
Oct. 2, 2010, 06:24 PM
I come from huntseat land but i have yet to figure out why on eath someone would do this to a horse. There is no excuse good enough for me to constitute reasoning behind such "training" as some on this board refer to it as. It is not training, it is torture, and it is inhumane. If you want a horse to flex...and become supple....do it the right way. cranking a horses head to its chest completely behind the verticle, in a painstaking manner is abuse. Look at the horse's eyes in that video and the extreme amount of saliva pouring from its mouth. Why doesnt the horse look uncomfortable or like its in pain?...well for one the thing has its head forced to its chest and its forced to do this on a regular basis and taught not to fight it but to give into to this. Its purely disgusting. Its not teaching a horse ANYTHING ... if anything its damaging to the horse. Like i said, do it the right way instead of inflicting pain and abuse onto the poor animal...

princessfluffybritches
Oct. 2, 2010, 11:35 PM
The world is full of people doing sucky things to animals.

siegi b.
Oct. 3, 2010, 07:28 AM
Yes, and I know that the folks in huntseatland would rather drug their horses into submission than train them there. Much, much better method!! :lol:

shalomypony
Oct. 3, 2010, 07:32 AM
We would be JUST as flabberghasted seeing this done in ANY OTHER discipline, so why is it being defended in dressage?

From what I've experienced with my own eyes,this is normal in the Arab world and much of the western world.I've watched an Arab that was under saddle for 20 days being worked in a rig just like this......yuck....learn how to ride!!!!!!!!!!

Kareen
Oct. 3, 2010, 07:52 AM
I'm sure there are hunter trainers who are as much against drugging as I am against the BS that's being sold as dressage traing these days. Lucky me I happen know quite a few of them in both worlds. That's what makes me positive that this will not be the end of competitive dressage but merely an intermezzo. As soon as even those in countries that have never enjoyed the popularity of dressage it has had overhere in Europe realise it shoots competitive dressage directly in the face to insist on this bogus version of the sport, the trend will probably move right back and there will be a revival of what dressage was originally about.
There have always been and there will always be people who have no horse sense. But the more people are speaking up the faster the pendulum can swing back towards a more esthetic and less circensic approach.
There are too many people concerned with dressage itself for it to go down forever. It may shrink and it may split up but it won't die.

fburton
Oct. 3, 2010, 08:04 AM
I fail to understand how Rollkur could possibly strengthen the horse's core because riding a horse deep hyperextends the muscle groups and ligaments of the back and neck and does not allow for the horse to properly get beneath itself and use its core. If it cannot properly use its core, how can it strengthen its core??
Do you (or Ridgeback) have a pointer to the research by Hilary Clayton that shows this? Thanks!

siegi b.
Oct. 3, 2010, 09:14 AM
fburton - the "medical" expert on this subject is CLEARLY spirithorse! :lol: Please direct your question to him.....

naturalequus
Oct. 3, 2010, 04:04 PM
From what I've experienced with my own eyes,this is normal in the Arab world and much of the western world.I've watched an Arab that was under saddle for 20 days being worked in a rig just like this......yuck....learn how to ride!!!!!!!!!!

YESYESYES!!! Haha. I have watched WP horses u/s in the exact same situation, day after day at my barn. I did a bit of a double-take when I saw one of the horses in a lesson actually being ridden off the draw reins (the curb reins were attached around the horn). The horse was struggling to maintain its 'frame' and was in obvious discomfort - the horse by any means was not being disrespectful or uncompliant however and in fact was doing his best to be willing. Not good enough and the instructor eventually got on because her student wasn't sufficiently forceful - she made sure to yank his mouth further down and spur him forward into the illusion of a frame. Nvm the twisted wire curb bit to boot (that, I happened to see as I walked my horse by on the ground, since the horse's mouth was gaped open in pain)!!! The fact that those horses - and those horses only - rattle my own horses is another sign to me that something is wrong (if it were not obvious already). Apparently they don't like the negative energy radiating from horses being forced either.

naturalequus
Oct. 3, 2010, 04:10 PM
Do you (or Ridgeback) have a pointer to the research by Hilary Clayton that shows this? Thanks!

Check out the book Tug of War, for one, for the info concerning the biomechanics of the horse and its relation to dressage, to start. There really is not much research out there either for nor against RK at this time (except that it restricts breathing, and vet testimony that it increases the prevalence of hock injections and other issues). So while I do maintain an open mind that RK, used mildly and softly (ie. not held for sustained periods of time and never forced) could be beneficial, the biomechanics of the horse suggests harm to the horse when it is used irresponsibly. Not to mention the obvious signs of the horse, including in an emotional and mental sense. My personal opinion is also that such a method, when abused, is also not natural to the horse nor does it follow the lines of the true classical dressage (which is supposed to be harmonious and involve two-way communication).

Hilary Clayton is all Ridgeback, not me. My knowledge of her is very limited to what Ridgeback and others have pointed out.

Sannois
Oct. 4, 2010, 08:07 PM
I'm sure there are hunter trainers who are as much against drugging as I am against the BS that's being sold as dressage traing these days. Lucky me I happen know quite a few of them in both worlds. That's what makes me positive that this will not be the end of competitive dressage but merely an intermezzo. As soon as even those in countries that have never enjoyed the popularity of dressage it has had overhere in Europe realise it shoots competitive dressage directly in the face to insist on this bogus version of the sport, the trend will probably move right back and there will be a revival of what dressage was originally about.
There have always been and there will always be people who have no horse sense. But the more people are speaking up the faster the pendulum can swing back towards a more esthetic and less circensic approach.
There are too many people concerned with dressage itself for it to go down forever. It may shrink and it may split up but it won't die.
Well said. That is what I was hoping someone would say. :yes:

fburton
Oct. 5, 2010, 08:38 AM
fburton - the "medical" expert on this subject is CLEARLY spirithorse! :lol: Please direct your question to him.....
One of Ridgeback's statements suggested that HC had done some research on this. I just wanted to know if and where it had been published.