An Open Letter UPDATE: It's On The Agenda p.8

[War Admiral]

Well, guys, I woke up this morning in one of my "mad as h*ll and not gonna take it any more" moods, and just fired off the following letter to David O'Connor with a copy to Brian Sosby in hopes that it may make the next issue of Equestrian. Let the chips fall where they may!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

AN OPEN LETTER TO DAVID O’CONNOR

Dear Mr. O’Connor:

I read with interest your introductory letter to the membership of USEF in the December/January issue of Equestrian. I have to wonder why the officers and directors of USEF seem so determined upon a program of expansionism. Bigger is not always better, and I think that before we attempt to tack another wing on our house and hire high-powered real estate agents to market it to an unsuspecting general public, we need to clean the place up. I don’t mean slapping a coat of paint on it in this year’s fashionable color. I mean rehabilitating it from the very foundations on up.

We need to acknowledge that equestrian sport has a very dark side indeed, and we need to maximize our efforts to shut it down in toto. While the recent list of “Big Name Trainers� in the hunter-jumper industry suspended for using illicit drugs is the most obvious current example of what I mean, I’m not just talking about those individuals or that one situation.

“Nobody can tell it’s lame if you enter the ring at a canter, and don’t trot.�

This is what an experienced “A� Circuit trainer told me about a fabulous old jumper I bid in at a feedlot auction for $600, absolutely crippled, and fresh off the “A� Circuit with the drugs still in his system to prove it. This horse had been nerved twice to keep him jumping; he had been jacked up on extra testosterone to make him “brave to the jumps�. “Legal� limits of painkillers? I think not. It took me over a year to detox this horse, and an additional three years to get him pasture sound.

And now, we are hearing about the latest round of designer drugs which keep a horse civilized enough for any amateur or child rider - but which have some very nasty side-effects, including long term brain damage. Would you want your child to buy such a horse? For a six-figure price tag? Sooner or later, someone's child is going to die riding one of these horses. How will our sport play to the general public then?

I say, enough.

No more hot-wiring dressage horses’ teeth. No more jumping horses until they are crippled. No more blowtorches to “air up� the gaited horses. No more designer drugs. No more “trainers� (quotation marks emphasized) training horses for several clients just outside the show grounds, even though said trainers are under indefinite suspension from USEF for killing horses to collect the insurance money. And most importantly, no more slap-on-the-wrist suspensions for the owners and trainers who participate in and condone such activities. We must make the abuse of horses so economically impractical that people understand that in doing so, they may very well ruin their own careers as well as those of their clients. We must hit these people in the pocketbook so hard we bring them to their knees.

And if undertaking such a program means your international “medal count� goes down for a few years - you know what? A lot of your members really, truly don’t much care. The recent vociferous support for our carriage driving pairs should provide the Federation with ample proof that many of your members are still people who love horses and believe that simply to compete in an international level competition is something to be very proud of, and something that deserves all the support the Federation can provide.

Quite honestly, Mr. O’Connor, I don’t feel I need my Federation to provide me with a tie-in to a tractor company so that I can get a discount on a product I don’t need, and will never buy. What I do need my Federation to do is make equestrian sport something we can all be proud to participate in. Right now, the list of illegal activities receiving benign neglect from our officers and directors is so mind-boggling that, quite frankly, I am (as I do every year) once again giving serious consideration to dropping my membership.

Don’t try to sell me a bigger house. Try to sell me a better one.

Sincerely yours,

Liz Ireland
Athens, GA

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[This message was edited by War Admiral on Dec. 29, 2003 at 12:36 PM.]

[This message was edited by War Admiral on Jan. 01, 2004 at 09:26 AM.]

[War Admiral]

Well, guys, I woke up this morning in one of my "mad as h*ll and not gonna take it any more" moods, and just fired off the following letter to David O'Connor with a copy to Brian Sosby in hopes that it may make the next issue of Equestrian. Let the chips fall where they may!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

AN OPEN LETTER TO DAVID O’CONNOR

Dear Mr. O’Connor:

I read with interest your introductory letter to the membership of USEF in the December/January issue of Equestrian. I have to wonder why the officers and directors of USEF seem so determined upon a program of expansionism. Bigger is not always better, and I think that before we attempt to tack another wing on our house and hire high-powered real estate agents to market it to an unsuspecting general public, we need to clean the place up. I don’t mean slapping a coat of paint on it in this year’s fashionable color. I mean rehabilitating it from the very foundations on up.

We need to acknowledge that equestrian sport has a very dark side indeed, and we need to maximize our efforts to shut it down in toto. While the recent list of “Big Name Trainers� in the hunter-jumper industry suspended for using illicit drugs is the most obvious current example of what I mean, I’m not just talking about those individuals or that one situation.

“Nobody can tell it’s lame if you enter the ring at a canter, and don’t trot.�

This is what an experienced “A� Circuit trainer told me about a fabulous old jumper I bid in at a feedlot auction for $600, absolutely crippled, and fresh off the “A� Circuit with the drugs still in his system to prove it. This horse had been nerved twice to keep him jumping; he had been jacked up on extra testosterone to make him “brave to the jumps�. “Legal� limits of painkillers? I think not. It took me over a year to detox this horse, and an additional three years to get him pasture sound.

And now, we are hearing about the latest round of designer drugs which keep a horse civilized enough for any amateur or child rider - but which have some very nasty side-effects, including long term brain damage. Would you want your child to buy such a horse? For a six-figure price tag? Sooner or later, someone's child is going to die riding one of these horses. How will our sport play to the general public then?

I say, enough.

No more hot-wiring dressage horses’ teeth. No more jumping horses until they are crippled. No more blowtorches to “air up� the gaited horses. No more designer drugs. No more “trainers� (quotation marks emphasized) training horses for several clients just outside the show grounds, even though said trainers are under indefinite suspension from USEF for killing horses to collect the insurance money. And most importantly, no more slap-on-the-wrist suspensions for the owners and trainers who participate in and condone such activities. We must make the abuse of horses so economically impractical that people understand that in doing so, they may very well ruin their own careers as well as those of their clients. We must hit these people in the pocketbook so hard we bring them to their knees.

And if undertaking such a program means your international “medal count� goes down for a few years - you know what? A lot of your members really, truly don’t much care. The recent vociferous support for our carriage driving pairs should provide the Federation with ample proof that many of your members are still people who love horses and believe that simply to compete in an international level competition is something to be very proud of, and something that deserves all the support the Federation can provide.

Quite honestly, Mr. O’Connor, I don’t feel I need my Federation to provide me with a tie-in to a tractor company so that I can get a discount on a product I don’t need, and will never buy. What I do need my Federation to do is make equestrian sport something we can all be proud to participate in. Right now, the list of illegal activities receiving benign neglect from our officers and directors is so mind-boggling that, quite frankly, I am (as I do every year) once again giving serious consideration to dropping my membership.

Don’t try to sell me a bigger house. Try to sell me a better one.

Sincerely yours,

Liz Ireland
Athens, GA

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[This message was edited by War Admiral on Dec. 29, 2003 at 12:36 PM.]

[This message was edited by War Admiral on Jan. 01, 2004 at 09:26 AM.]

[Cherry]

Wow--get up on the wrong side of the bed, did we, this morning??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Good!!!! I like it!!! Concise and to the point... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I believe the biggest problem in this country is that people want other people to tell them what they want, and what they need... We are so desensitized to things (despicable things) that we no longer consider them to be bad...

I'm one of those people who feels the need to pick up the pieces of animals that are left crippled and fending for themselves when others have thrown them away, and, quite frankly, I am tired of having to do it... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif I think it's high time that people who run animals (especially horses) into the ground are held accountable for their actions!!!!

Bravo, Liz... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"Everything looks good until you start to examine it!!!", uttered by me on more than one occasion

[Rocky]

Liz,

You go girl..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

My new barn mantra...MYOB MYOB

[Due's Mom]

yes, ma'am...I agree with you 100%
If it were a petition, I would stand in line to sign it and I don't stand in line for much of anything.

[stegall]

wow-message loud and clear. Good job.

[hoopoe]

Excellent.

I read one sentence and instantly thought to myself

" Are we sure we have not had that happen already?"

I will leave it at that.

Now type up and send it.

_\\]
-- * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

[SandraD]

Ditto - Excellent!

-Member of the Short Stubby Leg Clique-

[SloRider]

WA,
You write very well and that is a powerful statement. Thank you. I would also sign it if it were a petition.
SR

[MissCapitalSplash]

So good! You write very well and I agree 200%. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If riding were all blue ribbons and bright lights, I would have quit long ago.
~George Morris

[Applesauce]

Very well said indeed. Beautiful. When I heard of a top "A" show barn having to Ace an experienced hunter at a SCHOOLING show, something inside me clicked. What's wrong with this picture? If you have to Ace your horse to show, then DON'T SHOW! Simple as that.

The cheating and drugging that goes on behind the scenes is just too much.

"What the fuh?" -Robby Johnson

[War Admiral]

Thanks guys. I can't take all the credit - I must give props to Velvet for throwing down the challenge in the "Will the COTH..." thread on H/J. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hoopoe - it's already winging on its way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cherry - Yeah, the other inspiration was a very cursory year-end look at my finances last night - when I realized I have spent way up in five figures over the last 4 years rehabbing this one tired old jumper. I could have had a LOT more fun with that money (buy a couple of CANTER cuties and retrain them for the circuit, or whatever). But for now, someone has to step up to the plate for these horses.

My goal is to get the ball rolling toward a world where what you, I, MCS, Serendipity, Fernie, et al. do is no longer necessary.

OK, so I'm dreaming! But it never hurts to try! It's pretty easy to just mouth off!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[FifteenOne]

Very well said and I concur.

[Dancing Lawn]

Good letter. The more people say these things, the better. It needs to be aired in public. Why anyone would knowingly use a "trainer" that does such barbaric things to a horse is simply beyond me. And all for a ribbon. Appauling.
I hope your letter gets published. I hope you have thousands of signatures behind it. I hope your federation gets the message. You do have the power to change the way things are.

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com)

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

Why be an extra, when you can be a star?

[Tackpud]

War Admiral - you are my hero! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[War Admiral]

It's not that hard, guys - y'all have computers - USE THEM! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[hoopoe]

And kudos to Velvet the Rouser of Rabble

_\\]
-- * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

[free]

War Admiral...we are fairly new to this and except for a few of the H/J things that made national headlines, I did not know that these things went on. I can honestly say that the riders and owners that I know personally in Eventing would not even think of doing these things to their horses.

BUT...I am sure that it does exist. Why has no one spoken up until now? If the powers that be do not police it effectively, (and obviously they haven't) why are they allowed to continue in these positions? There is still power in numbers and if enough who care formed an organization, we could accomplish much more. Now that we have a fearless leader...why not rally behind her and give her some support?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

[Pol]

Super great letter.

[War Admiral]

Free - For a quick (or maybe not so quick) redux, hop over to "THE Suspension List" on H/J. And I do need to point out that while the focus at the moment *happens* to be on H/J, there really is not any branch of equestrian sport where such things do not happen.

Anyway, someone on the suspension list thread noted the "culture of fear" that exists when it comes to discussions of this nature, and I think that's true. There are also a number of heavily vested interests that come into play.

I do not, for one minute, expect my letter to be published (although I hope it will). At the same time, however, I don't think that forming a splinter group would really solve any of these problems. I think it's up to USEF to do it - and I think they need to hear an awful lot of voices speak up, not just mine.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[horsegirl33]

amazing letter war admiral!! have you thought about sending the letter to any other horse-y places? just to open some people's eyes a little bit? it wouldn't have to be adressed to David O'connor but you can send it to a few places and hopefully one of them will publish it, post it, etc. The more people that see this letter, the better!!!

***God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses***

~~member of the Chicken Jumper Clique (AND PROUD OF IT!!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, IHSA clique & only child clique~~

[hitchinmygetalong]

QUICK QUESTION:
"No more hot-wiring dressage horses’ teeth."
Forgive my ignorance, but what is that all about?

WA, a wonderful letter. I hope it is not only PRINTED, but answered with some insights on how these issues are to be addressed.

I've written similarly-toned letters in the past about the Morgan breed and though I'm sorry to say I could not change the world, I did feel much better having spoken my peace. And if my letters encouraged one person, just one person, to stop and think and investigate, I would be satisfied.

I just find it ludicrous that a group of "sport" enthusiasts will scream and cry when the Thoroughbreds go from racetrack to slaughter yet these same people will allow such abuse to go on for the sake of a stupid fifty cent ribbon.

I turned my back on the show ring many, many years ago and have absolutely no desire to go near one.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[War Admiral]

Not a DQ so cannot address whether the practice is widespread or not - but a much-loved poster here on this board mentioned it a couple years back (I'm not going to mention names unless she gives me permission) - apparently it had been done to her rescued dressage horse, according to her vet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
Not a DQ so cannot address whether the practice is widespread or not - but a much-loved poster here on this board mentioned it a couple years back (I'm not going to mention names unless she gives me permission) - apparently it had been done to her rescued dressage horse, according to her vet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what exactly IS "hot wiring a horse's teeth?"

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[LaurieB]

Great letter! I'll be very curious to see whether or not you get a response.

[Weatherford]

EXCELLENT and WELL SAID...

Yes, SOME of us TRIED to make these changes, and frankly, I got tired...

However, I am pretty sure the COTH would publish that as an op-ed - (especially since John S. HAS written editorials on the subject of HORSES FIRST!) Remember Eq Mag's lead time is such that it won't be seen til Feb or March. And I think this SHOULD be published BEFORE the convention!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[vineyridge]

Why not send it to COTH? It's a great letter, and the more folks that see it the better.

Thread killer Extraordinaire

[cinnabar]

What a well written letter! I do hope it is published and answered...and not just a PC, skirting-around-the-issues non-answer.

[War Admiral]

LaurieB - Won't we all...

Hitchin - From what I understand, take some wire, hook it to the teeth at the one end and a battery in your pocket at the other end, give a little zing along with the half-halt, and you get that perfect upper level headset... Apparently...

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[Weatherford]

rather like hot wiring the girth for jumping... (which, I saw in Florida on a non-American International rider - and yes, I did report it, but it was too late....)

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[War Admiral]

Oh geeez Weatherford, I didn't even know about that one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif (Puts an interesting spin on my old jumper's heart murmur, doesn't it... Debate has raged since I've owned him among the various vets as to whether it was congenital or not...)

Well, I'll defer to Weatherford's superior expertise and judgment & mail the letter off to COTH on Monday. (They don't accept e-submissions.) I do agree that it should make the rounds before the convention if possible - and if the lid doesn't get slammed on it!

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[LMH]

Fantastic Letter-I, too, will be eager to see where this goes!

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Rifter]

War Admiral,

Excellently worded letter containing some awesome arguments! I'd send it around to as many horse publications as possible! Practical Horseman, COTH, Equestrian, etc. Remember that letter someone posted on the COTH last year about sucky trainers not teaching horsemanship? That ended up in PH. Sure the topic was a little more "benign" than yours, but hey, it's worth a shot.
Again, excellent letter. If there's anything we can do to help, let us know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*-Rifter-*

[ESG]

Excellent letter, Liz! Too true, unfortunately.

Now that several of us have mentioned that that we'd be happy to sign a petition with this letter as its head, how 'bout doing it? The only changes I'd make would be to the addressees, as this should go not only to the USEA, but to USEF, USDF and especially the USET (with appropriate changes, of course).

As Weatherford said, she and others have tried to make these changes, but got tired. I think even if half of us who post on these boards (and are card carrying members of at least two of the aforementioned organizations) start making our wishes known, the powers that be cannot continue to give us the brushoff, thinking the uproar will die a natural death. I should have been a lawyer, because nothing makes me happier than burying someone in paper to get my point across. With some people, as with horses, repetition is the key to understanding and progress. If the squeaky wheel continues to squeak, it can't continue to be ignored. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So who'll copy this letter and send it out, with signature? I will. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[AZ TD]

What exactly do you want USEF to do? USEF is our national governing body for equestrian sports. I have not seen the abuses that you report. I believe we have the tools to stop them at shows, but the steward or TD cannot be everywhere. It is up to exhibitors to be proactive and report instances of abuse.

What do you want our organization do about horses abused in non-show, everyday schooling situations where riders/trainers may not be on their best behavior? How can those situations be policed?

USEF must serve all of us, not only the small percentage of "bad actors". What is your proposed solution, how should they take action?

Theresa

[free]

What things might Eventers be doing to their horses in order to gain an advantage?

I would think that wiring a girth would very quickly ruin the horse for future competitions. Wouldn't the horse soon begin to refuse or go crazy whenever they had to enter a jump ring after experiencing something like this? I know that ours would. We try so hard to make jumping a good experience so that they enjoy it. I cannot imagine anything like that working for long.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

[Coreene]

EXCELLENT LETTER.

Willem came with hot-wired teeth when I rescued him. I am not the only BBer who has (well, in my case had) a dressage horse with hot-wired teeth.

[Snowbird]

Dearest War Admiral, just when I was tired and depressed and thinking of hibernation on my mountain you gave me a shot of adrenilin. Congratulations and thank you for the light and for being a leader.

Yes! you all have computers and you are all articulate and you are all opininated on various topics. You all are capable of stating your convictions and your opinion out loud in print to David O'Conner it has never been more VITALLY IMPORTANT.

It is so true that if the medal count drops our world will still be here and the sun will still rise and set every day.Although winning is nice it is not our reason for being in this sport.

IT'S THE HORSES WE LOVE AND NOT THE WINNING AT THEIR EXPENSE.

This is one I have been most caring about with a zero tolerance for medicating the horses instead of training the horses. a zero tolerance for medicating the horses instead of teaching the riders to ride and not just be passengers on a highway to the Blue Ribbon.

No $3.00 piece of rayon or even a GOLD MEDAL is ever worth the pain and suffering of a horse that trusts us to care for them.

Thank you! Thank you! War Admiral that is the very best Christmas present that I received this year.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[War Admiral]

Bless you, Coreene, for speaking out.

I have to say that Willem's "case history" was also a contributing factor in motivating me to write this, just as my own horse Avery's was. It still makes me shake with fury to even think about it.

If we can make enough noise to stop ONE PERSON from doing ONE EVIL THING to even ONE HORSE, as Willem might have said, "This it be verrie verrie good."

Hugs, girlfriend.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[War Admiral]

Oh and Snowbird - thanks to you too!! Since you are a more experienced "rabble rouser" than I am, maybe you can offer suggestions as to where to go from here?

I think my gut feeling is wait & see what USEF/COTH decide to do w/ the letter & if it's rejected then paper the universe with it... But as I say I have no experience in these matters to speak of.

Now, I really MUST get offline and go to the barn - Avery has rainrot all over his back & I'm hoping I can bathe him while it's warm. I'll check back later.

Meanwhile thanks all of y'all for your support!!

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[Coreene]

Right back atcha, baby. Not even Britesmile would have whitened those teeth.

[War Admiral]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[RAyers]

While I am in 100% agreement with the letter, I have some reservations about people's willingness and economic capability to support such things. Let's look at drug testing, for example.

Last year USAE tested over 66,000 samples and found 384 violations. This is for approximately 50 different types of substances. As new and more unique drugs are continually developed, the detection capacity must also be improved. This means creating new ELISA (enzyme linked immuno-suppresion assay) or other assays (e.g. FISH, TRIFA) that will detect the new drugs. It has been my experience that this is a rather expensive thing (10s of thousands of dollars) to do in a relatively quick manner. Are the constituents of the USEF willing to support increased drug testing costs to develop new assays and purcahse the appropriate new machinery that is needed to handle incresed testing? At Amgen we would spent $250,000 just designing one robotic system to conduct 1 ELISA on 100,000 samples a week. Many people are already complaining about the outrageous fees being charged at shows.

Are people willing to fund increased oversight at shows with monitors on patrol? I'm sure there will be a very vocal group that will scream that the USEF is now micromanaging and usurping the rights of owners and trainers to take care of their horses how they see fit.

While I agree in principle, the pragmatist in me sees very differently. I think is up to US to shoulder the burdens you bring up, War Admiral. We, as competitors, owners, riders, need to stop being shy about reporting suspicious activity in and around the showgrounds. Like a mother with many childer, the USEF can not clean its house unless the children are willing to pitch in and help.

Reed

[Just My Style]

Great letter Liz. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it gets published- or responded to.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Snowbird]

Here we go the "we can't do anything because"! OR well maybe there can be some reasons! OR there's no point we'll just drive them into worse things!

Nothing is impossible if enough people are willing to take action and if you don't believe me look at the "No Smoking" program and why are we still driving gas guzzlers or why don't we have the "Fuel Cell Generators for electricity"?

First let Dr. Lengel know that you care and you will support him and let the Board of Directors and the Officers know that you will support them if they will support the strongest measures against anyone who abuses their horse especially just to win. John Lengel has tried and he has been beaten down because so many who are the VIP people in charge are the ones who look the other way to keep the peace.

They all have to know that we are appointing ourselves as deputies to make sure we don't have hot wired teeth and Girths( Oh! my God) I hadn't even heard about that!Instead of everyone paying a fee a couple of people can put up the money to file and official protest. What you're afraid of retribution if you file a protest? Then you can't complain if nothing happens.

It is true that the USEF cannot afford to supply every show with a police force and we don't want a private army supervising us. We need to be that police force. We have to be willing to take a risk. We have to be the ones to report such and file a formal and official protest and have witnesses sign affadavits to go with the protests.

The only reason nothing will happen is if YOU are not willing to risk anything to make it change. It can be your money anonymously if you're too chicken to put your name out there OR you can put your name out there and if you save one horse from torture and incapacitating ailments not of his own doing then how much is that worth to you? How far are you willing to go and how much personal effort will you put into it?

They are talking about sending out to shows super stewards to check on the Stewards. Tell the Board of Directors to require that instead the super-Steward be there to check on the welfare of the horses and trust the Stewards. If there are Stewards that don't function then it's the licensing program that needs to be examined. If you have judges without integrity then it's the licensing process. What keeps good people from being Stewards or Judges?

I think it's the Clinic system which while well intentioned is extravagantly expensive and time consuming. Why not have rolling clinics hosted by the Zone Committee in each Zone so that qualified people will be willing to apply. Frequently it costs more to attend a clinic than the official is going to earn for the year. If there were no costs because the Zone covered the costs for the Clinic how many good people would there be available?

Take each problem back to the step before that made it possible.

Thank you for the "Rabble Rouser" title that is a lot more flattering than a lot of other titles I've been given.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Tackpud]

Snowbird - you hit the nail on the head. Let's get the USEF to hire stewards who have the job of coming in the morning before the show starts and staying in the stable area all day. Don't police the stewards who are doing what they are hired to do - check entries, measure ponies, interpret the rules. Hire extras to police the grounds, the trainers and the training methods.

Many things that we see are before the show day begins - the steward isn't on the show grounds. How can I say that X trainer had his horses LTD and their heads tied up all night, if there is no evidence when the steward appears for the day? Having another steward randomly appointed by the USEF is a good place to start.

On another note - exhibitors need to know if they report something that it will be looked into. I have filled out a number of show report forms listing various rules broken by management at different shows and mailed them to the USAE. I have NEVER heard back about any single one. Who should I go to if the USAE ignores me? Usually I don't return to the show, but someone else will always go and they won't miss my money.

[Snowbird]

Well for one thing you must file the report officially with the Steward the day of the show. There is I believe a special Members form to be completed and if it's a Rules violation by management you have to be willing to complete the form and put your name on it.

Now with the new Warning Cards, it will hopefully be better because the Steward can issue the warning card on his/her own. A copy to the show and a copy to the violator.

The problem that I can see is that if there is a violation and the majority of the exhibitors like the violation, management may not even know it's happening. For an example the fences are set to a minimuum height, the weather or footing isn't good and everyone agrees that it's fine but as in all horse activities it is not unanimous. The trainers have hopped into the ring and adjusted the fences during a schooling break, changed distances or heights.

That was why I proposed that no more than four rings should be considered one show. Management has no way to know exactly what's happening in every ring at every moment.

The super-steward idea was for public relations and is similar to what the Quarterhorse people do. I agree they would better serve public relations if they arrived on the grounds unexpectedly at unexpected times and toured the trailer area. Perhaps they would need some kind of legal authority to check glove compartments and grooming boxes.

In Canada they had a schooling steward that actually kept track of the number of fences jumped in schooling and the quota permitted could not be exceeded. Certainly, that would not be a problem since it doesn't require a licensed official.

That however was my point, it will cost someone to pay for that extra service. If we're really serious I would put a security fee on and hire an off duty policeman. There is always a solution if it's really what the majority wish to accomplish.

We can check the entries five times but we have no way of knowing if the horse in competition is actually the same horse that is entered. I can tell you that with names there are frequently multiple horses all with the same name. Some one has a horse on consignment for sale and they don't use the owner because they're not going for the points, yet it may be a horse not eligible.

That's why my point is that you the exhibitors have to be willing to be deputies because you're in the rings, schooling areas, parking areas and in the classes.
Battle Scarred Veteran

[Tackpud]

The Competition Evaluation Form states "return within 10 days of the competition" to the Competitions department. If the form must be turned in to the Steward the day of the show - why does the form state the above? The most telling statement of course is "USAE may further investigae any incident reported, should sufficient forms be received" - what number constitutes "sufficient"?

[equescool]

that many of your members are still people who love horses and believe that simply to compete in an international level competition is something to be very proud of, and something that deserves all the support the Federation can provide. &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; DITTO~!!!!

[marta]

war admiral~
i agree. i have to admit after reading your letter i realized how (blisfully) ignorant i am about the 'training' techniques used by show people. i knew that there were some mean backyard trainers who did these things but not at this level of competition... i thought for sure these horses were tested for illegal drugs and other procedures.
thank you for opening my eyes!

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

[War Admiral]

Well... While I see R. Ayers' point about financial impracticality... It's only financially impractical at the moment.

Start getting SERIOUS about fines. That horse show that let the banned trainer list himself as coach on the show forms for the charity event on the Monday? $150,000 fine and a 5-year ban for the company and every one of its officers and directors. Drug abuse: $50,000 fine to the trainer AND ANOTHER $50,000 fine on the client. Successful prosecution of just two small infractions and hey, USEF just cleared $250,000. By doing the right thing, even. And the rest of us wouldn't have to pay one thin extra dime...

All it would take would be to invoke and enforce this kind of penalty for about five years. I suspect this kind of activity would get really minimal really fast.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[FrittSkritt]

Brava, Liz! (if there was a clapping/standing ovation emoticon, I'd insert it here.) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

-KC

* * * * * * * * * * *
"They can make me do it, but they can't make me do it with dignity." -Calvin and Hobbes

Member of the "Vertically Gifted" clique, "I don't wear a GPA and proud of it!" clique, Connecticut clique, Missed Out On Ponies (MOOP) clique, IHSA clique, and -=Flying Horsewomen=- clique!

Rainy's Page (http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~kchurch/rainy.htm)
Photos! (http://community.webshots.com/user/outatime257)

[Snowbird]

Tackpud that is a form that is basically a critique and is generally for reference in the show file but I don't think it requires an acknowledgement but certainly that would be courteous. Those forms are copied to the Show Standards Committee relative to general conditions and specific errors.

I believe if there is a rule violation you have to actually file a formal protest with the Steward so they can refence the matter or call for a hearing if need be.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Snowbird]

War Admiral you raise an interesting question. Technically any such violation would also be a violation under criminal law in almost any state not unlike the cock fights and dog fights. I wonder if there should be an approach to an Attorney General to see how this type of crime relates to real criminal law. It might also fit under the Fraud definitions since they won by illegal means.

If that were so, and the Federation was required to notify the Attorney General in whatever state was the residence of the culprits a conviction by the hearing committee could have a lott of teeth.

Anyone out here in cyberspace work for or perhaps is a District Attorney or an Attorney General?

Battle Scarred Veteran

[War Admiral]

Snowbird - Let's just say that RICO is a *very interesting law*. And can be invoked for all manner of very interesting things. And has been. And could eeeeeeasily be again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[Tackpud]

War Admiral - You've got the right idea - get serious about fines. The most recent fines are headed toward the right track, but they really won't set any of these people back a whole lot. One commission on a lower level horse at most. Hit them where it hurts and hard. And start to hold the shows responsible for who they allow to show/coach from the sidelines. I turned a person in on the suspensions list and nothing was said. The show didn't even know she was suspended for filing a false membership form. And they allowed her to show the next week - and her name is still on the suspended list today! What a way to prevent fraud http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Snowbird]

Wow! tackpud that is very serious, I can understand the show not knowing because frankly I rarely read the list, however my Show Secretary and my Steward should know and if you told them, there is no excuse for anyone suspended to be on any show grounds, not just in competition.

We have had a circumstance where the list was not correct and a person in question did have a letter from the Federation saying they were permitted to compete. I would have to assume this might have been the case because otherwise the Steward could lose their license if that persons name shows up in any results sheet which is turned in to the Federation.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[imapepper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
LaurieB - Won't we all...

Hitchin - From what I understand, take some wire, hook it to the teeth at the one end and a battery in your pocket at the other end, give a little zing along with the half-halt, and you get that perfect upper level headset... Apparently...

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif That's just horrible. I didn't know what that was either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[CAJumper]

First off, GREAT job War Admiral - I really hope your letter gets published. And I hope you receive an honest response (I'll be watching for it!).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tackpud:

On another note - exhibitors need to know if they report something that it will be looked into. I have filled out a number of show report forms listing various rules broken by management at different shows and mailed them to the USAE. I have NEVER heard back about any single one. Who should I go to if the USAE ignores me? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is SO true. I've reported things before and I know they haven't been followed up on. It's very discouraging to see the same trainer at every show, knowing that his/her horses have been drugged, riders are showing in divisions they've qualified out of...or whatever the claim may be.

Anyway, thanks again for stepping up to write this letter. Hopefully the new federation can and will make some serious changes in our sport.

[Snowbird]

You go War Admiral, I think that's the way to put teeth in that can really bite. Shouldn't be hard to follow up on. Washington might help with that too. Think about the Horse Caucus, 52 Representatives.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[RAyers]

Hold it, Snowbird and War Admiral, are you saying the USEF should take on police/legal functions, e.g. use of RICO? That makes no sense and is impossible unless the USEF creates a specific legal arm that pursues legal action in conjunction with the appropriate authorities against violations. Talk about increased expenses to the membership! How does that tie in with the letter you have written? Please explain.

Reed

[This message was edited by RAyers on Dec. 27, 2003 at 07:10 PM.]

[Linda Allen]

Finding this thread brightened up my day! Someone asked why people would do this kind of thing -- and then answered their own question: blue ribbons. Winning has become "worth" any price to a few too many (of course it is any price being paid by their horses not by those making the decisions).

I doubt that those professionals would be doing this stuff if it were 'up to them' but I think that they tell themselves it's necessary to keep their clients who they believe 'have to win,' or will 'go to someone else'.

I see no way out of a continuing downward spiral unless 2 things happen: 1) as has already been mentioned on this thread, the penalties become much more serious for those who are caught; and 2) the clients take a little more interest in HOW they win as well as IF they win.

I for one feel very lucky not to have had parents who would have wanted to pay for "congratulatory ads" in magazines for wins that came via illegal or unethical treatment of my horses (or had not wanted to know if this was the case or not).

If it is necessary to turn a blind eye on what your trainer is doing in order to "be successful" as an amateur today - it is a pretty sad state of affairs.

It's hard to change the world in a day -- but it is nice to know that there are some horsemen and women out there that aren't fearful of saying what they think. And, since I've already gotten myself in plenty of hot water for doing just that, I'll just go ahead and post this under my own name and make my wish for the New Year that some of the new staff and committees will be brave in standing up for the interests of the equine athletes and not just for the interests of that minority of professionals (riders, trainers, managers, and officials) who fail to do so.

Linda Allen

[This message was edited by Linda Allen on Dec. 27, 2003 at 07:41 PM.]

[Snowbird]

Hi Linda,
Welcome to the pond, we're used to the hot water. I really like the idea of employing the national and state laws outside the Federation for cruelty and abuse to the animals as well fraud in the winning, especially with those hefty Cash Awards.

They'd really have to decide which way they would lose more clients don't you think? Sounds like a great New Year's Resolution to me, it's on my list for 2004.

Did you read the thread about hot wiring the horse's teeth? Gawd awful folks have joined us in this horse world.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[retreadeventer]

War Admiral: All it would take would be to invoke and enforce this kind of penalty for about five years. I suspect this kind of activity would get really minimal really fast.
Guess what. There isn't even any need to reinvent the wheel. The kinds of penalties and infractions you've described just did happen in the state of Delaware, when the slot machine monies bumped the purses so high. The racing commission finally got wise and set the positive penalties in the thousands and suspensions for half a year, a year at a time. Believe me that did indeed get the race trainer's attention. By the way, the FED's tolerance levels of therapuetic medications are outrageous. There should be ZERO tolerance of such things. They enhance performance! Why allow them? Anything that makes a horse feel good is a performance enhancement, period. Horses need to be presented with training and conditioning, not medication. The recent notice about "sharps" containers at the horse shows made me furious! No needles and syringes should be present in any thing but a vet's truck at the shows. Any horse that gets any thing from a vets needle should be scratched. Any one other than a vet found with a needle or syringe should be given a YEAR off to think about it. I just can't stand the way USEF treats drugs at horse shows. Racetracks are oodles stricter on such things and it just makes me wild when people think horse shows are "clean" and racetracks are dirty. In reality it's quite the opposite!!!Sorry to vent, Mill Cove

[CHJoker]

Hmmm...my observations

Good Work War Admiral!! fine those bastards, and get them out of the business. They give a bad name to everyone.

Sorry, but animal cruelty is a crime, last time I checked. If someone wanted to, I am sure that criminal charges could be filed (they may have already been) and what a joke if anyone who is suspended is allowed to compete.

One thing is CERTAIN, the offenders will only take it as seriously as the officials do.

It seems they are not taking it so seriously. Email them everyone... one person they can brush off...but 20, 50, 100, or more...well, it gets harder to ignore.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Beth

[War Admiral]

RAyers: Yes, pretty much, that is what I'm suggesting. It's not going to cost the membership any more than the NGB p*ssing contest did for however many years. And at least it would be money well spent - rather than the $2.3 million (I think? two-point-something anyway) gassed away on lawyers which bought us all essentially nothing other than same cr*p, different day.

BUT I am also suggesting that individuals can also take action. The next time a trainer represents both buyer and seller in a horse sales transaction, taking commissions from both, and the horse crosses a state line as part of the sale, buyer and seller both can and should go straight to a lawyer and get all commissions paid back, no questions asked. Why? Because representing both buyer and seller an an act of interstate commerce is ILLEGAL and in clear violation of the Uniform Commercial Code, that's why. Prove that there was a kickback involved to some other trainer or agent, and voila - RICO prosecution - somebody could do some jail time.

Linda - Thanks so much for giving us your thoughts. It brightens my day to have brightened your day! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif FWIW I don't think your (2) elaborated in your post will happen until (1) happens - and until we start putting some burden of responsibility (and heavy fines) on the owners as well.

Hollihorse - Thanks for your input, too. Actually I've said the same thing for years now - to the outside world, racing is the industry with the bad rep. That's no longer true. The enemy is us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I really appreciate the info on Delaware. Which track or tracks was that?? I think maybe I should copy our new CEO John Long w/ my correspondence. He will probably be familiar w/ how the proposed approach worked in Delaware. Maybe he, at least, will understand what I'm talking about. So again, THANK YOU.

Snowbird: Trust me, I'm making my list and checking it twice.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

All of y'all rock. You really do.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[nycjumper]

GREAT LETTER! I was a former "pleasure rider" & as a newbie to the A level showing scene I have been horrified about some of the abuses I've seen, heard about or read about.

Great letter - count me in as a happy signer of any petition.

[Lord Helpus]

Slow down, guys:

Giving a horse any tranquilizer is not illegal. If it was, then every time anyone tranq'ed a horse to clip it or clean a sheath they could be hauled into jail.

Giving a horse Reserpine is also not abuse. If it was then everytime someone used it for a horse going crazy on stall rest could be brought up on charges.

The ONLY rules against "medicating" a horse and then showing are those of the Federation. So it is only the Federation who can enforce the rules.

Now this wiring teeth sh*t (which I had never heard of until this minute... What discipline is it used in? Dressage?) is another story. I do not know the background of how the Walking horse people were made to stop soring their horses, but that did come under animal abuse. So there probably is a law that would cover teeth wiring.

[War Admiral]

LH, I see what you're getting at but I think we've got our wires crossed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif All I want USEF to do is enforce the rules on D&M that it already has in place - with VERY HEFTY FINES for the offenders. And if the offenders don't pay up within a reasonable period of time, I think USEF should take legal action against them. That better?

I don't think the TWH people *have* stopped soring their horses. That's not what I'm hearing down here from people who attend the Celebration on a regular basis. SOME have. But I still see ads for flat-shod lobbyists here and there, so I assume it's still a problem. Additionally, I note that TWH is no longer a USEF breed/discipline, but I don't know if they jumped or were pushed...

Wiring teeth seems, so far as I am aware, to be exclusively a dressage thing. (Helps w/ the "suspension".) I'd never heard of it either until Coreene posted it ages ago, then I got curious and asked one of my vets who competes in dressage. She'd not heard of it but asked around and yes, it does happen.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[RAyers]

I have no problem with instituting FEI policies. I event and have competed in and worked/help organize plenty of FEI competitions. Their drug rules are the strictest (like those at racetracks earlier). I have run my horse drug free in all of our competitions so I know it can be done.

Since we were writing at the same time, War Admiral, I did not see your reply to LH. What you suggest makes much more sense and I agree with it. I have edited this post to reflect that.

Reed

[horselesswonder]

Excellent letter.

Forgive me if this was posted before - I haven't read the whole thread - but I'd also like to know where are the press releases? Speculation about the suspensions began months ago, and the sport's governing body was silent. A release as to the process and how many people were being investigated would have been better than nothing. Then big names started showing up on the Web site, and still nothing. I just clicked through the USEF's Web site and didn't see any news releases on the recent suspensions. These are big-name trainers whose students, horses and accomplishments regularly appear in industry publications. Their suspensions are news. And yet, I do not know of any reporting on them. Why?

[hillary]

I read with interest this part of Linda Allen's post:

"I doubt that those professionals would be doing this stuff if it were 'up to them' but I think that they tell themselves it's necessary to keep their clients who they believe 'have to win,' or will 'go to someone else'. " Yo - duds - and dudettes - it is up to YOU. Yo - parents - it is up to YOU for junior riders, ads in magazines are not lessons in life. TRAINERS are in charge of the horses: if the clients "pressure" you...send them down the street, don't let your reputation be up for sale. PARENTS are in charge of the children, and what they get out of having and showing horses. Parents - do you want to ruin that experience for your child with a little "stretch" of the rules...drugs, showing age, ...?

I agree with Linda - how do you reinforce this? Stiffen up the penalties! Now! And hello, when BNT trainer with initials PV comes up for reinstatement, I hope EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD will write and say how disgusting the conduct was and no! no reinstatement.

[OLD A/O]

Simple Question? What ever happened to the well schooled horse? The one you could bet your life on. Frankly, I am sick of the 120 day wonders.

[Snowbird]

Gotta tell you that wiring those teeth got this old lady really going. You can't imagine what a low pain threshold for pain I have at the dentist.

I don't think anyone says you can't ever use a tranquillizer when its really needed but what we are saying is that to get a horse addicted to drugs so that when you make it go cold turkey it can win in inhumane and deserves to be considered animal abuse just as it would be human abuse.

There were several lawsuits a few years back against the USOC because some kids who were Olympic contenders claimed their coaches compelled them to take drugs.

I'm saying that if you want to worry about the environment fine worry about the animals and the childrens when the coaches want to win that bad. I'm saying if you are worried about second hand smoke then worry about horses who have owners and trainers that would electric wire their teeth.

I am old and you all are young and it's your job to protect your world from these money grubbing, self serving mental midgets who would use cruelty to a horse that trusts us to win a $3.00 piece of rayon and to make a few bucks. That's blood money to me as bad as those guys in "Murder Inc.".

Battle Scarred Veteran

[horse_poor]

KUDOS LIZ!!!!!!!

Aero thanks you http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Molly, Aristotle, and Brown Baggin' in MN

proud member of senior horse clique

"if ya aint got it on the ground, ya aint got it over the jumps....and dont let him use the wall as a crutch.." kristine pfister stephenson, 1992

[Snowbird]

If there are no press releases then where are the inquiring reporters? Where is the government District attorney? Where are all those investigative reporters that are supposed to guarantee us freedom of the Press?

We complain about the Animal Rights people but how are we going to clean our house? We've got four pages of Yes! it's true but only one letter that I've seen. Who is willing to copy the information on this thread to everyone who has said to us "It's in the best interests of the horses?"

Who will write letters to the Chronicle? Who will write an article for the papers and magazines? And yes! I've protested the fact that as a show manager why should I provide a box for the needles that are not supposed to be used for healthy sound horses that compete.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Bumpkin]

Elliot gives that 4 hooves up!!!!!

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

[cornbread]

That is a well-written letter, War Admiral. It addresses many of the concerns I have about the show ring. For many years I could not decide whether I wanted to become involved in any horse sport because of what I, even as an outsider, had heard and seen.

I suspect that one reason why more people do not speak out about the issues addressed in War Admiral's letter is because the world of equestrian sports is insular--how many times have we debated about how to make horse sports more accessible to the general public?--but compartmentalized by discipline as well. Because things are so compartmentalized, it is easy to think that any abuses you see are confined to one particular trainer, or circuit, or discipline, or breed.

I think so much of this abuse comes from the fact that horses are expensive, and riding well is difficult. The question of "When is it acceptable to use performance-enhancing substances and methods?" is a tricky one, and I can easily see how someone would be tempted to use drugs and questionable training methods to win, simply out of frustration and greed. It is a slippery slope, and once you have taken the first step downhill, it is hard to stop, especially with so much at stake.

The fact is, it's in some people's nature to do whatever they need to do to win. And it's in some people's nature to hand their horse(s) off to a trainer and take little notice of what happens to the horse outside of the ring. Ignorance is bliss, you know. It's hard to put your ego aside and say, "I have to do what is best for my horse, even if it means I will not be competitive." In the long run, that is the only thing that will make us better riders, better horsemen, and better human beings.

"It takes a good deal of physical courage to ride a horse. This, however, I have. I get it at about forty cents a flask, and take it as required." --Stephen Leacock, from "Literary Lapses: Reflections on Riding"

[Kryswyn]

When I returned from a long sojourn in Hawaii and began attending shows as a spectator at Commonwealth Park in VA in 1993, I was absolutely DUMBFOUNDED by the sharps containers. How can you say "No drugs" and then tacitly permit them by placing disposals on every barn row? I worked briefly at for a show barn meeting them at shows as an extra groom and began hearing BNTs talk casually about this and that horses' "cocktail" I was truly shocked.

I think in addition to the high penalties, owners need to insist that their horses NOT be given drugs. I'm envisioning some sort of lapel pin whose symbol means "I don't drug my horses" or "Performance-enhancing drugs not tolerated at this barn" sort of a MADD 'no drinking' button. If you wore it, it could raise awareness and also, if your trainer refused to wear it or post it plainly in the show tack room, you'd know it was time to look for another trainer...

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Weatherford]

Ah, but the PENALTIES are SET by the HEARING COMMITTEE - and the D&M committee (some automatic penalties occur when there is no question...) SO THESE are the people we need to WRITE...

Here are the member of the new Hearings Committee:

MRS. JEAN T. BLACKSTONE
Co-Chair
491 CHESTERFIELD RD
BOGART, GA
30622-1764
Email: jeanblackstone@mindspring.com

MRS. T. V. W. CUSHNY
Co-Chair
3612 HUMPHREY LANE
LEXINGTON, KY
40502
Day Phone: (859) 268-5254
FAX: (859) 268-9554
Email: corac@mindspring.com

MRS. JUDITH F. WERNER
Co-Chair
3607 RED WING FARM RIDGE
WATERLOO, IL
62298-2213
Day Phone: (618) 939-6761
FAX: (413) 647-0650
Email: redwing@htc.net

MR. LARRY J. BACON
Member
522 REGENT CT
VERSAILLES, KY
40383-1681
Day Phone: (859) 873-0517
Evening Phone: (859) 873-0517
Email: Bbbacon1@aol.com

MR. MIKE BAKER
Member
2666 BILLYS RD
MINDEN, NV
89423
Day Phone: (775) 267-4007
Evening Phone: (775) 450-3772
FAX: (775) 267-0459
Email: galenafrms@aol.com

DR. SAMUEL J. BARISH
Member
11106 STEPHALEE LN
ROCKVILLE, MD
20852-3656
Evening Phone: (301) 984-9593
FAX: (301) 984-9593
Email: sjb3@mindspring.com

MRS. FERN P. BITTNER
Member
2929 CONCORDIA LANE
SAINT CHARLES, MO
63301-4613
Day Phone: (636) 946-9727
Evening Phone: (636) 946-9727
FAX: (636) 925-3939
Email: fernbittner@earthlink.net

MR. JAMES C. BROWN
Member
2055 CORNWALL RD
LEBANON, PA
17042-7414
Day Phone: (717) 270-6639
Evening Phone: (717) 273-3016
FAX: (717) 274-8357
Email: jcbrown@sylvite.com

MRS. ROBIN BRUECKMANN
Member
6004 LOMOND DRIVE
SUMMERFIELD, NC
27358
Day Phone: (336) 643-8490
Evening Phone: same
FAX: (336) 643-8491
Email: chiri302@hotmail.com

MR. J. WILLIAM CRAWFORD
Member
38970 AVENIDA CONITA
MURRIETA, CA
92562-9237
Day Phone: (503) 682-0518
FAX: (503) 682-7705
Email: bc-bmf@attbi.com

MS. MARY ANNE O. CRONAN
Member
3200 CANTERBURY LN
LOUISVILLE, KY
40207-3621
Day Phone: (502) 895-4039
Evening Phone: (502) 895-9617
FAX: (502) 895-9617

MR. ROBERT S. DOUGHERTY
Member
PO BOX 835
NICASIO, CA
94946-0835
Day Phone: (415) 662-2031
Email: rsdoughert@aol.com

MR. JOE FARGIS
Member


MR. KEVIN J. FREEMAN
Member
2034 NW 27TH AVE
PORTLAND, OR
97210-2213
Day Phone: (503) 222-1971
Evening Phone: (503) 246-3335
FAX: (503) 228-9668
Email: kevinfreeman@freemanbaler.com

MR. JOHN H. FRITZ
Member
3655 N. ALPINE RD, A124
ROCKFORD, IL
61114
Day Phone: (815) 654-6935
Evening Phone: (815) 654-6935
FAX: (815) 282-9709

MICHELLE GIBSON
Member
12377 INDIAN MOUND ROAD
WELLINGTON, FL
33467
Cell Phone: (678) 575-1201
FAX: (561) 204-5558
Email: migibson@mindspring.com

MRS. ANNE GRIBBONS
Member
KNOLL DRESSAGE, LLC
2121 MILLS CREEK RD
CHULUOTA, FL
32766
Day Phone: (407) 366-5545
FAX: (407) 366-7319
Email: agribbons@aol.com

MS. NATASHA A. GRIGG
Member
92 LAKESHORE RD
BOXFORD, MA
01921-1112
Day Phone: (978) 352-6321
Evening Phone: (978) 352-6321
Cell Phone: (508) 662-0094
FAX: (978) 352-2358
Email: mymol@aol.com

MS. HILDA C. GURNEY
Member
8430 WATERS RD
MOORPARK, CA
93021-8715
Day Phone: (805) 529-3575
Evening Phone: (805) 523-0607
FAX: (805) 523-0607
Email: hildagurney@prodigy.net

MR KARL V. HART
Member
PO BOX 110
9300 NW 193RD ST
ORANGE LAKE, FL
32681 USA
Day Phone: (352) 591-5631
Evening Phone: (352) 591-4661
Cell Phone: 352-266-0042
FAX: (352) 591-5633
Email: karlvhart@aol.com

MR. ARTHUR HAWKINS
Member
BOX 1047
16130 VIA MADERA
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067-9999
Day Phone: (858) 756-2749


MR. STEPHEN O. HAWKINS
Member
5 ANONA COURT
SADDLE RIVER, NJ
07458


MRS. CECILE K. HETZEL DUNN
Member
AUSTIN EQUINE EDUCATION CENTER
PO BOX 318
WEIRSDALE, FL
32195-0318 USA
Evening Phone: (352) 750-2592
FAX: (352) 750-1764
Email: aecprovost@aol.com

MR. BRENT A. JACOBS
Member
1076 LEESBURG ROAD
GEORGETOWN, KY
40324-9767
Day Phone: (502) 863-0416
Evening Phone: (502) 863-0416
Cell Phone: (859) 221-4179
FAX: (502) 863-3438
Email: ladyjj123@aol.com

MS. KERITH A. LEMON
Member
103 AVENUE A, 3D
NEW YORK, NY
10009 USA
FAX: Fax: (309) 437-7322
Email: Kerithlemon@yahoo.com MR. FRANK V. LLOYD
Member

HARWOOD LLOYD
130 MAIN ST
HACKENSACK, NJ
07601-7152
Day Phone: (201) 487-1080
Evening Phone: (201) 529-5361
Cell Phone: (201) 803-7790
FAX: (201) 487-2443
Email: FLloyd@harwoodlloyd.com

MR. J. ASHTON MOORE
Member
334 MISSION VINEYARD RD
SAN JUAN BAUTISTA, CA
95045-9706
Day Phone: (831) 623-4446
Evening Phone: (831) 623-4446
FAX: (831) 623-0607
Email: jmoore@osierlea.com

MR. WILLIAM J. MORONEY
Member
PO BOX 376
ALDIE, VA
20105 USA
Day Phone: (540) 687-6842
Evening Phone: (540) 687-6842
Cell Phone: (202) 359-3997
FAX: (540) 364-3504
Email: Bill2760@aol.com

MR. GLENN T. PETTY
Member
207 N. MAIN ST, SUITE 101
ROLESVILLE, NC
27571 USA
Evening Phone: (919) 554-0855
FAX: (919) 562-3287
Email: trifarms@aol.com

MR. TIMOTHY O. POSTEL
Member
PO BOX 1498
PEBBLE BEACH, CA
93953-1498
Day Phone: (831) 624-2756
Evening Phone: (831) 622-0338
FAX: (831) 624-3999
Email: tim@ridepebblebeach.com

MS. KATHLEEN H. RAINE
Member
21300 AVENIDA DE ARBOLES
MURRIETA, CA
92562 USA
Evening Phone: (949) 300-1221
Cell Phone: (949) 300 1221
FAX: (909) 461-1509
Email: avontuur@earthlink.net

MRS. JESSICA RANSEHOUSEN
Member
PO BOX 807
POWELL RD
UNIONVILLE, PA
19375-0807
Day Phone: (610) 486-6357
Evening Phone: (610) 486-0240
FAX: (610) 486-6561
Email: bluehillfarmpa@aol.com

MR. HOWARD B. SIMPSON
Member
271-0 MARKET SQUARE
LAKE FOREST, IL
60045
Email: howard@hbsimpson.com

MR. WYATT A. STEWART III
Member
4317 FORREST LN NW
WASHINGTON, DC
20007
Day Phone: (202) 429-5525
Evening Phone: (202) 364-6093
FAX: (202) 857-5230

MRS. EVE LLOYD THOMPSON
Member
14434 LAUREL TRL
WELLINGTON, FL
33414-7648
Day Phone: (561) 791-2797
Evening Phone: (561) 791-2797
FAX: (561) 753-9153
Email: eve@bernicebarbour.org

DR. C. MIKE TOMLINSON
Member
3940 VERDE VISTA DR
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
91362
Day Phone: (805) 987-0880
FAX: (805) 388-3004
Email: mike@tomlinson.com

MR. ALVIN R. TOPPING
Member
PO BOX 353
SAGAPONACK, NY
11962-0008
Day Phone: (631) 537-0662
Evening Phone: (631) 537-0662
Cell Phone: (803) 669-0557
FAX: 631-537-0024
Email: scf29@aol.com

MS. MAUREEN G. VAN TUYL
Member
2572 OHLONE DR
SAN JOSE, CA
95132-2630
Day Phone: (408) 923-4403
Evening Phone: (408) 923-4403
FAX: (408) 923-4409
Email: maureen@swde.com

MR. CHESTER C. WEBER
Member
9275 SW 9TH STREET RD
OCALA, FL
34481-1410
Day Phone: (352) 622-4156
Evening Phone: (352) 861-9612
Cell Phone: (352) 895-1139
FAX: (352) 622-1860
Email: chester@chesterweber.com

MR. JOHN L. WILLIAMS
Member
PO BOX 620
MIDDLEBURG, VA
20118-0620
Day Phone: (540) 554-4949
Evening Phone: (540) 554-4949
Cell Phone: (540) 270-7552
FAX: (540) 554-4949

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Weatherford]

While we are at it, we should include the D&M committee (!!!):

A. KENT ALLEN DVM
Chair
PO BOX 835
MIDDLEBURG, VA
20118-0835
Day Phone: (540) 687-4663
Cell Phone: (540) 729-0574
FAX: (540) 687-4665
Email: vaequine@aol.com

MR. MIKE BAKER
Member
2666 BILLYS RD
MINDEN, NV
89423
Day Phone: (775) 267-4007
Evening Phone: (775) 450-3772
FAX: (775) 267-0459
Email: galenafrms@aol.com

MR. MICHAEL L. BARISONE
Member
PO BOX 474
CALIFON, NJ
07830
Day Phone: (908) 832-1400 A
Evening Phone: (908) 229-1182 A
Cell Phone: (908) 229-1182
FAX: (908) 832-1401 A
Email: BarisoneDressage@aol.com

MRS. JEAN T. BLACKSTONE
Member
491 CHESTERFIELD RD
BOGART, GA
30622-1764
Email: jeanblackstone@mindspring.com

MR EDWARD S BONNIE
Member
FROST BROWN TODD
400 W. MARKET ST., 32ND FLOOR
LOUISVILLE, KY
40202-3363
Day Phone: (502) 589-5400
FAX: (502) 581-1087
Email: Ebonnie@FBTLAW.COM

CHRISTINE M. DAINIS-ADAMS DVM
Member
20546 AIRMONT RD
BLUEMONT, VA
20135-2109
Day Phone: (540) 554-2354
Evening Phone: (540) 554-2354
Email: cdainis@earthlink.net

MR. DEREK DI GRAZIA
Member
126 CARMEL VALLEY RD
CARMEL VALLEY, CA
93924-9522
Email: DIG1007@COMCAST.NET

MICHELLE GIBSON
Member
12377 INDIAN MOUND ROAD
WELLINGTON, FL
33467
Cell Phone: (678) 575-1201
FAX: (561) 204-5558
Email: migibson@mindspring.com

MS. MARGIE GOLDSTEIN ENGLE
Member
DAYDREAM ASSOC.
2126 HENLEY PLACE
WELLINGTON, FL
33414
Day Phone: (561) 795-6203
Evening Phone: (561) 795-6203
FAX: (561) 795-0252

MRS. VALERIE J. KANAVY
Member
PO BOX 106
FORT VALLEY, VA
22652-0106
Day Phone: (540) 933-6131
FAX: (540) 933-6518
Email: vkanavy@rica.net

MS. KAVAR KERR
Member
PO BOX 471
WILSON, WY
83014-0471
Day Phone: (307) 733-8593
Cell Phone: (561) 758-0021
Email: kvrdnal@aol.com

MR. LONNIE F. LAVERY
Member
PO BOX 237
SHARON CENTER, OH
44274-0237
Evening Phone: (330) 229-1776


JOHN E LOWE DVM
Member
136 SNYDER HILL RD
ITHACA, NY
14850-6360
Day Phone: (607) 272-5163
Evening Phone: (607) 272-5163
Cell Phone: (607) 227-5025
FAX: (607) 253-3907
Email: jel23@cornell.edu

MR. A. L. MARTIN III
Member
PO BOX 686
ALVIN, TX
77512-0686
Day Phone: (281) 585-5381
Evening Phone: (281) 331-3704
FAX: (713) 585-5383

PAUL D. MC CLELLAN DVM
Member
1288 CALLE MARIA
SAN MARCOS, CA
92069-2166
Day Phone: (760) 591-9952
FAX: (760) 591-9977
Email: sdequinegroup@cox.net

MS. MARTHA MURDOCK
Member
P O BOX 98
SIMPSONVILLE, KY
40067-0098
Day Phone: (502) 722-9984
Evening Phone: (502) 722-0064
FAX: (502) 722-0064
Email: mstables@bellsouth.net

MR. DENNIS MURPHY
Member
14491 HIGHWAY 43
VANDIVER, AL
35176-7145
Day Phone: (205) 672-2046
Evening Phone: (205) 672-7699
FAX: (205) 672-7691
Email: MagiSteel@aol.com

MRS. KAREN L. O'CONNOR
Member
O'CONNOR EQUESTRIAN, INC.
PO BOX D
THE PLAINS, VA
20198 USA
Day Phone: (540) 687-3652
FAX: (540) 253-9885
Email: ocet93@aol.com

MS. SUSAN B. SCHOELLKOPF
Member
174 MIDDLESEX RD
BUFFALO, NY
14216
Day Phone: (716) 873-4664
Evening Phone: (716) 870-2533
Cell Phone: 716-870-2533
FAX: (716) 877-4001
Email: SBEAT@AOL.COM

MR MITCH J SPERTE
Member
WINDHOLME FARM
12425 WINDHOLME DR
ORANGE, VA
22960
Day Phone: (540) 903-2789
FAX: (540) 672-3451
Email: sperteshowhorses@aol.com

MRS. CAROL THOMPSON
Member
Day Phone: (732) 780-2441
Evening Phone: (723) 780-2441
Cell Phone: (732) 580-5670
FAX: (732) 780-2392

MRS CHRISTINE S TRAURIG
Member
2743 LLAMA COURT
CARLSBAD, CA
92009-6518
Day Phone: (760) 310-3599
Evening Phone: (760) 931-9477
Cell Phone: (760) 310-3599
FAX: (760) 931-9462
Email: CTetienne@aol.com

MRS. JUDITH F. WERNER
Member
3607 RED WING FARM RIDGE
WATERLOO, IL
62298-2213
Day Phone: (618) 939-6761
FAX: (413) 647-0650
Email: redwing@htc.net

MR. FRANK WILLARD
Member
DEEP RIVER FARMS
5220 W WENDOVER AVE
HIGH POINT, NC
27265-9177
Day Phone: (336) 454-1084
Evening Phone: (336) 471-7088
FAX: (336) 454-8452

MRS. SARA LORD IKE
NV Advisor
BOX 357
OLDWICK, NJ
08858-0357
Day Phone: (908) 234-1251
Evening Phone: (908) 439-3416
Cell Phone: (908) 872-0537
FAX: (908) 234-9417
Email: sike@uset.org

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[CHJoker]

Okay! Here we go!

Everyone!! Take action! Write an email explaining what you think. Doesn't have to be long! Just clear.

Cut and paste all the email addresses of the hearings committee and send it out!!

NO EXUSES!

"If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem." In this case, this is dead on. The guilty parties are hoping like crazy that no one cares.

Hey guys, I don't even live in the US anymore! But I am going to write.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Beth

[Dancing Lawn]

This whole thread is sickening. I live in my own quiet corner of the world, and don't get out much. Learning about all these atrocities makes me want to continue staying in my own little corner of the world. If this is what it's like out there, how can I possibly continue to sell horses, to anyone, anywhere? I know that I wouldn't tolerate any drugging of any kind, if it was only to get a ribbon. If my horse needs medication, he obviously isn't going to a show. Tranquilizers? To show? What's with everyone out there? Call me naieve, for sure.
Stick to your principals, War Admiral. Together, we can change the way things are done.
Yes, it can wear you down. It takes it's toll. But look at us who have been fighting the pmu issues for years. We're finally getting somewhere.
Get rid of the vicious, cruel win at all costs trainers, and allow only those with integrity to remain.

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com)

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

Why be an extra, when you can be a star?

[War Admiral]

Wow - Thank you Weatherford for all your hard work compiling that list. You ROCK. I've redacted it down to just the e-mail addresses so everyone can just cut and paste, and I'll include them at the bottom of this post.

Kryswyn - That is a WONDERFUL idea. I'm game if the rest of you all are!

If you want to write but can't think what to say, then just copy and paste my Open Letter and say "I support the views contained in the attached letter, and would encourage your committee to take action."

If you DO write, and could send a copy to me, I'd greatly appreciate it: lizviola@aol.com.

If you're of a mind to do so, here are the e-mail addies redacted from Weatherford's post.

OFFICERS:
doconnor@usef.org - President
jlong@usef.org - CEO

HEARINGS COMMITTEE:

jeanblackstone@mindspring.com
corac@mindspring.com
redwing@htc.net
Bbbacon1@aol.com
galenafrms@aol.com
fernbittner@earthlink.net
jcbrown@sylvite.com
chiri302@hotmail.com
bc-bmf@attbi.com
rsdoughert@aol.com
kevinfreeman@freemanbaler.com
migibson@mindspring.com
agribbons@aol.com
mymol@aol.com
hildagurney@prodigy.net
karlvhart@aol.com
aecprovost@aol.com
ladyjj123@aol.com
Kerithlemon@yahoo.com
FLloyd@harwoodlloyd.com
jmoore@osierlea.com
Bill2760@aol.com
trifarms@aol.com
tim@ridepebblebeach.com
avontuur@earthlink.net
bluehillfarmpa@aol.com
howard@hbsimpson.com
eve@bernicebarbour.org
mike@tomlinson.com
scf29@aol.com
maureen@swde.com
chester@chesterweber.com

D&M COMMITTEE:

vaequine@aol.com
galenafrms@aol.com
BarisoneDressage@aol.com
jeanblackstone@mindspring.com
Ebonnie@FBTLAW.COM
cdainis@earthlink.net
DIG1007@COMCAST.NET
migibson@mindspring.com
vkanavy@rica.net
jel23@cornell.edu
sdequinegroup@cox.net
mstables@bellsouth.net
MagiSteel@aol.com
ocet93@aol.com
SBEAT@AOL.COM
sperteshowhorses@aol.com
CTetienne@aol.com
redwing@htc.net
sike@uset.org

USEF VETERINARIAN:
jlengel@usef.org

Thanks again y'all!! You're making my day!!

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[CHJoker]

Okay...I just sent my email off. It took about 5 minutes to do. Thanks for compiling all the email addresses. It saves alot of time.

I forwarded you a copy, Liz.

Beth

[War Admiral]

Here's what I ended up putting as my cover letter to the Hearings & D&M Committees - you're welcome to copy & revise it. I did do separate personal e-mails to a couple of committee members I know personally, as well as an individual letter to John Long because I specifically wanted to cite Hollihorse's excellent info on the Delaware Racing Commission. He'll get the point. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


*************

Ladies and gentlemen:

Many members of USEF feel that the Federation is not doing all it could do to stem the tide of illicit drugs and abusive practices in all USEF disciplines. We believe that with the Annual Meeting coming right up, the time is now to request concrete action.

Attached you will find a copy of my "Open Letter to David O'Connor", which has been sent to Messrs. O'Connor and Long and the editor of "Equestrian" as well as being forwarded to all members of the Hearing Committee and the D&M Committee.

If you can think of ways for us to help you, we stand ready. Likewise, we are very keen to know of ways and means we might use to effect concrete action.

Thank you for your consideration.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OLD A/O:
Simple Question? What ever happened to the well schooled horse? The one you could bet your life on. Frankly, I am sick of the 120 day wonders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The well schooled horse went the way of the dodo when it was discovered by "trainers" that medication could sometimes take the place of what they called "training". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Yet another example of our greed and "fast food mentality" concerning showing horses in this country. And before anyone slams me for saying this doesn't happen in Europe, I know it does; but I suspect it happens with greater frequency now that the Europeans know that we dumba$$ed Americans can and do mistake shortcuts and flash for training and substance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ise@ssl]

I'm not understanding the question - are we willing to pay more for drug testing? We shouldn't be paying anything for drug testing except perhaps a minimal fee. THE FINES should pay for the drug testing. And I certainly agree there has been NO BIG STICK here and NO BIG PUBLICITY to create an economic deterrent or public humiliation within in the sport.

I am also disgusted to read on the BB's and hear it over and over again about the drug use by people involved in the sport - on show grounds.

Why does anyone feel the USEF should have to do anything more than call in the agencies that ALREADY EXIST TO DEAL WITH THIS and please note these agencies ARE PAID BY OUR TAX DOLLARS.

I've posted more than a few times - have the DEA or local law inforcement show up at shows with sniffer dogs un-announced and the "let the games begin". Horses can't score cocaine themselves for God's sake. Someone has it and it is a controlled substance. Illegal - end of story. If there is any "dope" on the show grounds it's too much IMO.

And if trainers/owners/anyone has pharmaceuticals that had to have come from a licensed veterinarian then they should go down as well. Don't these Veterinarians have some responsibility to ask - exactly what will you be doing with THIS MUCH BANAMINE?

War Admiral - you are right on point. It's time to clean house and more than a few individuals need to end up in the dumpster. There are some things that just CAN'T be painted over.

I also don't feel ONE BIT OF SYMPATHY for the concept that trainers have a lot of pressure from clients. The old saying is true "you lay down with dogs - you get up with fleas". If an owner waves money in front of anyone with the caveate - "make the ribbons happen"....it's a measure of character if the person sells their soul and takes the money or not. DIRTY MONEY IS DIRTY MONEY.

[War Admiral]

Well, ise, as RAyers has pointed out, drug testing is hugely expensive. Every time a new drug comes up they have to devise tests for it. I do agree w/ you 100% that the bulk of that money should come from increased fines - but I think that we will always have to pay some amount.

You are welcome to use the e-mail addresses Weatherford has provided to make your feelings known. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Let's move on this, guys. The annual meeting is coming right up.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
I'm not understanding the question - are we willing to pay more for drug testing? We shouldn't be paying anything for drug testing except perhaps a minimal fee. THE FINES should pay for the drug testing. And I certainly agree there has been NO BIG STICK here and NO BIG PUBLICITY to create an economic deterrent or public humiliation within in the sport.

I completely agree. And if the USEF or any other organization bitch about having to put out more money, we just turn around and tell them that if they'd been DOING their jobs and enforcing their own rules, they wouldn't have to fork over now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



I also don't feel ONE BIT OF SYMPATHY for the concept that trainers have a lot of pressure from clients. The old saying is true "you lay down with dogs - you get up with fleas". If an owner waves money in front of anyone with the caveate - "make the ribbons happen"....it's a measure of character if the person sells their soul and takes the money or not. DIRTY MONEY IS DIRTY MONEY.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Everyone faces choices in life. Bad/lazy/corrupt/abusive trainers shouldn't be excused for making the wrong ones. Once a trainer sells his/her reputation out to a client or the pressures of winning in general, they're morally hosed. And sooner or later, they're hosed in the show ring too...........when they get caught. As they will be if all of us start making noises like WarAdmiral and telling the powers that be that we're not putting up with this crap any more. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[War Admiral]

So, folks, IF a SIG (Special Interest Group) were formed to lobby USEF for increased fines/penalties for D&M infractions & abuse, would you join?

I'm not saying I'm really gonna go there... I never expected this to get this far, I just woke up in a bad mood & fired off a letter! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But let's just say one WERE formed - what would you want it to be like and would you join it?

At this point I'm not envisioning anything terribly formal - no dues or anything like that - no officers, maybe just an advisory council - you might, as Kryswyn has suggested, just pay a buck to get a button or badge to wear.

Would you do it or not?

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[can't re-]

H4H = Horse(wo)men for Horses!

I wrote my letter.

[ellen]

This problem is already out of control in the industry - My husband has been a trainer for 20+ years and has seen a steady increase in the use of drugs - we all know the source of the drugs - they have to come from a vet or someone in a vet facility that has access - you don't get these caliber of drugs at your local tack store or through a catalog!

Until vets refuse to hand over drugs to trainers (which last time I looked, was illegal), this problem will continue.

More regulations (and absolute enforcement) need to be in place at shows to discourage this -
I agree there are practices in our industry that have been tolerated; now is the time to clean house -

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ellen:
This problem is already out of control in the industry - My husband has been a trainer for 20+ years and has seen a steady increase in the use of drugs - we all know the source of the drugs - they have to come from a vet or someone in a vet facility that has access - you don't get these caliber of drugs at your local tack store or through a catalog!

Until vets refuse to hand over drugs to trainers (which last time I looked, was illegal), this problem will continue.

-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd be surprised--a DVM on a professional mailing list recently posted that clients of his were able to obtain ketamine (a DEA scheduled substance) through a catalog.

I'm constantly amazed at the stuff some people acquire "from the farrier", as well--sometimes stuff with foregn labels on it.

Prescription drugs can and are legally dispensed for use "by or under the direction of a licensed veterinarian".
Would you be willing to pay a call fee plus a charge for medication every 8 hours if your horse were on antibiotics?
Do you think a DVM must be present in order for your horse to be given phenylbutazone in his dinner?
Does the horse with hives or lymphangitis need a DVM to administer the dexamethasone twice daily?

I don't believe in handing out sedatives and tranquilizers like candy, but there are circumstances in which they are dispensed ethically, IMO. Unfortunately, they are not always used as directed.

Certainly there are DVMs who are acting like drug wholesalers. That's also unfortunate. However, off show grounds,I can't see that USEF has any jurisdiction over it.
Perhaps, like at the track, it could be grounds for suspension if one were found in possession of needles, syringes, and/or medication which did not have a clear prescription label for a specific individual horse (i.e., a DVM friend who owns TBs once got in trouble for leaving a tube of Banamine paste for one of her own horses at the track without labelling it.)

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
So, folks, IF a SIG (Special Interest Group) were formed to lobby USEF for increased fines/penalties for D&M infractions & abuse, would you join?

I'm not saying I'm really gonna go there... I never expected this to get this far, I just woke up in a bad mood & fired off a letter! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But let's just say one WERE formed - what would you want it to be like and would you join it?

At this point I'm not envisioning anything terribly formal - no dues or anything like that - no officers, maybe just an advisory council - you might, as Kryswyn has suggested, just pay a buck to get a button or badge to wear.

Would you do it or not?

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the proverbial New York minute. Where do I sign up? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Horseymama]

Wow, I had no idea this thread was here...just read the whole thing.

Thank you, War Admiral, for that great letter. You are very articulate, I admire your writing skills!

I would like to address a point that Linda Allen made about owners/clients taking a little more interest in how they win.

I think the average owner has NO idea what goes on behind the scenes. Think about it...lets say little Suzie is thirteen years old and has been taking riding school lessons for five years. Mom and dad do no more than drive her to lessons and pick her up, maybe they watch a few lessons now and then. Then little Suzie wants a children's hunter, so they go to trainer "X," (the one that little Suzie wants to ride with), and they buy her a children's hunter. Do mom and dad know about double dipping commissions or drugging horses or anything like that? Of course not, they both work, little Suzie has a little brother who keeps them busy as well, they just want little Suzie to be happy. They pay the bill when it comes, with all the "miscellanious" charges because never in their wildest dreams would they suspect that trainer "X" is drugging little Suzie's horse!

Like I said on the "THE suspension list" thread, I, personally have made some dumb mistakes as an owner in this industry, and have learned dearly from them. However, I make my (meager) living as a NNT and therefore take a genuine interest in what goes on. I am dedicated to educating myself in horsemanship and the horse industry. But what about those parents and amateur owners out their with other lives and careers who show horses as a hobby and don't or haven't had 20 years of experience and mistakes in order to be "smart" in the horse business?

Like I have said before, we need to build some basic standards, certification, code of ethics, by which professionals can operate. Maybe it should be written in a handbook and distributed when you join the federation. That way, people who are new to the horse industry have some basic idea of what is acceptable and what is not.

It is not O.K. that in order to operate as a professional in this business all one must do is write a letter to the federation "declaring" themselves a professional.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horseymama:
_It is not O.K._ that in order to operate as a professional in this business all one must do is write a letter to the federation "declaring" themselves a professional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense intended, but what makes you think even the letter is required? Anyone can hang out a shingle and call him/herself a professional. Anyone. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Rocky]

I am all for "good" training and "good" horsemanship, and no drugging....but are you saying that there should be a zero drug policy for a USEF horse showing?

I totally suport your efforts in the enforcement of drugs and medications rules, but I cannot support your Open letter if your intent is to make all horse showing in the US follow the FEI medications rules.

I think that drugs like banamine, isox, and bute have their place when used in the legal amounts for theraputic purposes. I believe that injectables like Legend and Adequan are a god send for our older horse athletes. In my opinion it would be counterproductive for the horse's well being to remove an exhibitor's right to use these types of meds in their current legal dosages.....Isn't this all about what is good for the horse....

War Admiral, this letter was a great idea until the "no drug at all for any reason" and "call the drug dogs to the horse shows" zealots got on the bandwagon.

Just what we need the public to see at our shows, police and drug sniffing dogs....that is a great public relations event for the sport....

Let's take a look at the BIG PICTURE before you drag this issue out in front of the non horse public....

My new barn mantra...MYOB MYOB

[RAyers]

Rocky, you are a bit mistaken. The FEI DOES allow the use of drugs such as Adequan, Legend, gastogaurd or ranitidine provided the overseeing vet administers them while the horse is on the show grounds. We do this at 3-day quite a bit. Isox can be used up to 1 week prior to the competition. I have had to become VERY familiar with the FEI medications rules because of my competing, working with the vets on the veterinary committee at several CCIs and having a vet that is a FEI vet. The key with the FEI is that NOBODY other than a vet can administer drugs for therapeutic purposes during a competition and if the injury is not treatable with reasonable therapy, the horse must be withdrawn.

It is very fair.

Reed

[ise@ssl]

Well Rocky - the current policy on drug use at horse shows by people is WHAT? That's right - nothing. Yet time after time we hear it and read it on BB's about the use - blatant and otherwise. So shall we just continue to ignore it?? Rather than go after it and stop it to keep it quiet and not get bad publicity.

Seems to me the only time our sport gets publicity on a national level is more often then not when it is negative and a scandal.

I still don't understand when horses test for cocaine why law enforcement isn't notified and brought into the situation.

And BTW - having gone to college in the late 60's early 70's - I'm certainly not naive about drug use of all kinds - but I do have ZERO TOLERANCE. That doesn't make me a zealot. Haven't seen a single person who performs better, thinks better, does anything better or improves the state of world with DOPE. The ones who think it helps them don't have to see themselves.

[Snowbird]

Zowie! You you guys have given me back my gumption. I admit I was feeling like nobody really cared.

Count me in for SIG

I have never understood why the FEI Rules were fine if you had to compete internationally but for what reason should they be suspended at lower levels?

Rocky the key word is "at the competition".

Great Job War AdmirAL, I know John Lengel will be thrilled because he as been seeking our help against the vested interests for years.

It's time the mice learned how to roar like the king of the jungle!

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Just My Style]

Hi Liz.

Just checking in again. I just wanted to say that I have been stewing about your letter since you first posted it and it is getting me more ticked off (in a good way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) . I have sent it along to some people and I know they will pass it along to their friends too. I really believe in what you said and I am ready to help stir the pot. Stirring the pot is one of my specialties! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Weatherford]

ON the Ethics part - I re-wrote the German Federation Ethics booklet three years ago. Alan Balch was all for doing SOMETHING - and passed the booklet on to the legal committee for review (even though that was just a draft.) Unfortunately, other politics came to the forefront, and the whole thing got put pretty low on the list. Give the ExComm these days, I suspect it is a no-brainer - they won't do it... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[rottenrobbie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horseymama:
_It is not O.K._ that in order to operate as a professional in this business all one must do is write a letter to the federation "declaring" themselves a professional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense intended, but what makes you think even the letter is required? Anyone can hang out a shingle and call him/herself a professional. Anyone. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bottom line IT IS A DIRTY BUSINESS...if your going to play the game you better have your eyes WIDE OPEN.

[This message was edited by Weatherford on Dec. 29, 2003 at 06:44 PM.]

[Bumpkin]

Oh Dear Gawd do not get me started on people who put out the Professional Shingle when they clearly are not even close to being Professional...... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

[ESG]

Good idea, Bumpkin. I'll start a new thread. Stand by for pot stirring! Muhahahahahahaaaa!

[Rocky]

"Well Rocky - the current policy on drug use at horse shows by people is WHAT? That's right - nothing. Yet time after time we hear it and read it on BB's about the use - blatant and otherwise. So shall we just continue to ignore it?? Rather than go after it and stop it to keep it quiet and not get bad publicity."


Ise@ssel-My post had absolutely nothing to do with drug use by people....if you care to read it again you will see that it refers only to horses...I am going to go out on a limb here and and say that the discussion of human drug abuse is a topic for a completely other thread...and not something I want the federation to spend my membership money on. Drug abuse is a national crisis in the USA and agencies greater than the AHSA ( USEF or whatever the hell it is now)with greater resources than the USEF, are already using my tax dollars and are unable to control drug abuse by people.

Reed-thanks for setting me straight about the FEI rules....those policies are really great for that upper level of showing, but who is going to police the lower level shows. Who is going to make sure that Little Suzie's Short Stirrup horse gets no more than the legal amount of bute, who is going to make sure that some NNT's baby green project isn't getting a 1/2cc of ace before it gets on the trailer to go to the one day "B" show?

I say test the winners, like 1st-3rd or 4th at every show.

Make the freaking fines for violators high enough to cover the testing expenses. And as part of the punishment test the offenders -trainers, riders, and owners-often-like every show.

Make the punishment for using illegal types and amounts of medications hurt everyone involved-trainers owners and riders-this slap on the wrist crap only makes a mockery of the system. These people are going to sit out a few months, pay a token fine, then go back to business as usual.....

My new barn mantra...MYOB MYOB

[Bumpkin]

I just showed this thread to the UD website.
Perhaps people should post it on other websites to send more reactions to the committees.

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

[Saddlebag]

Regarding the "double dipping" and "stacking" of commissions on horse sales, and I totally agree that this has become the norm and that it is nothing more than fraud, there is a simple and inexpensive way to protect yourself against this practice when you purchase horses. It is called, full disclosure. All you have to do is demand a contract signed by buyer, seller and all agents disclosing where all the money goes and who gets what. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Now, having said that, buyers have to be reasonable. There are an infinite number of arrangements that are made between sellers and agents...for instance, an agent may take a horse "on the cuff", with boarding, training fees to be paid at time of sale. Such things should be mentioned in a bill of sale, to protect the seller if nothing else. But buyers shouldn't freak about such an entry in the contract.

Doing this isn't foolproof. Agents could still conspire to falsify the facts. But if they had signed a contract that had been falsified, and it can be proven....well, you'd have a pretty good case to take to your attorney!

I am a professional...have been for years, and I do not and have not stacked commissions. And it makes me nuts to realize that I am in the minority...and that there are trainers who won't buy from me because I won't be a party to this practice. When acting as an agent, I expect a reasonable commission, but I don't think that committing fraud is the way to treat clients or other professionals.I am not advocating any set amount for commissions. That is to be agreed upon between agents/trainers and their clients. I don't have a problem with third party commissions either. Often it is way cheaper to pay another commission to a broker to pre-select horses for a trainer and a client to look at, than to use up valuable time and money "kissing toads". I just think that every one involved should know what is going on.

The buyers...the consumers have the ability to correct this. And there are trainers...good ones too...who will stand behind you. More than you might think.

[CHJoker]

Dear Rocky,

I swear, we are all on the same side! Let's not get divided over the details.

Write a few emails and put some pressure on the powers that be. Put in that email exactly what you said in your post. We don't all have to agree on the fine print, but I think we all agree on the generalities.

The unethical practices that are taking place, the rules that are ignored, the blatent disregard of horsemanship NEEDS TO BE STOPPED.

And, it can be. All it takes is some desire. Light a fire under their a**** and it is possible it may become a priority.

But if you sit on your a*** and do nothing, then basically you are saying that you agree with the current practices, and accept all the consequences.

I say, NO WAY is abuse acceptable. I love my horse, as I know all of you love yours, and it is not acceptable that abuse is committed, without punishment, in competition that the USEF sponsors. To have the abuse REWARDED, by allowing the abusers to continue, with only slight punishment, is just a slap in the face to all of the ethical and responsible people who love the sport AND their horses. Let's not forget that the HORSES are equal partners in the competition, and they have no voices. We are their only advocates, for better or worse.

The saddest fact is, by having tolerance for such abuses, the USEF is actually encouraging more of the dishonesty, abuse, and fraud. Those honest folks who find it unacceptable may feel they have no interest in such "competitions". SAD, SAD, SAD.

Don't let those ****** get away with it. The least we all can do is let the feelings we have be known. It DOES count for something.

Beth

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 29, 2003 at 05:19 AM.]

[Weatherford]

Now, sponsors, THERE is an interesting idea... Does a trainer you know with a sponsor stack the meds?? Maybe the sponsor should know... Maybe ALL the sponsors whould know!!!

This thread gives me a glimmer of hope... but I will admit, it is only a glimmer...

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[War Admiral]

CONCRETE PROPOSALS FOR CHANGE:

OK, having had more time to think about it, here are the proposals that others have mentioned either here or on the suspension list thread that I think all deserve detailed consideration by USEF:

(1) The War Admiral/Hollihorse Proposal: Jack those fines up HUGE and make those suspensions minimum 6 months, or even 1 year or more. Hit the owners as well as the trainers, e.g. for each infraction, trainer pays $15,000 and so does owner. Pursue aggressive collections activity against those who fail to pay. Use the increased revenue to fund the other proposals.

(2) The Lord Helpus Proposal: Pull blood from 1-6 but only TEST 2 of those at random. Store the other samples so that if any of 1-6 test positive at some other future event, the prior test(s) can be compared w/ the current test. (I can't help wondering if this might not assist in determining relative amounts of calcium/phosphorus?? Reed are you there??)

(3) The Poltroon Proposal: Notices of Penalty should be archived in a database, not JUST online but available by phone or fax to all USEF members.

(4) The Kryswyn Initiative: Start an anti-doping campaign among the membership. Lobby USEF for change.

(5) The Weatherford Proposal: Study and adapt the German federation Ethics Booklet to use in the USA. Weatherford, I'd loff to know details if you have a chance to post.

(6) The MistyBlue Proposal: Rather than a SuperSteward (which I understand is under consideration), get each show to have a NIGHT Steward. Stewards should be available on the grounds 24/7 and their cell/pager numbers should be prominently posted in the show office and listed in the prize list. That way it won't take 2.5 hours to track down a steward if you see an infraction...

Did I miss any? These are all great ideas!!

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[War Admiral]

UPDATE: USEF RESPONDS!!

Some very nice e-mails in my in-box this morning, one from our new CEO John Long and one from Brian Sosby (editor of Equestrian). Looks as if the letter will run in Feb. but will be edited down.

I don't wish to quote Mr. Long's response w/o his permission (and like a dork I forgot to ask if it was O.K.) - but in essence what he said was:

(1) D&M may be the most important item to address this year;

(2) It WILL be addressed from many different directions; and

(3) THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT AND IDEAS.

So keep the ideas coming, and the e-mails going!!

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[Snowbird]

Excuse me please but we have a topic on the table being discussed and if you guys want a cat fight start your own thread and go at it.

WarAdmiral is doing a great job pulling the loose ends together and I look forward to being at the Drugs and Medications Committee meeting to see how they are received.

I frankly don't care what your credentials are or what papers you have and I certainly think that the general topic was off topic. I don't know who you are and I don't know who rottenrobbie is; and even more to the point I don't give a rat's ****.

You'd be kind if you deleted the whole off topic tangent mess from this thread and let us do some serious creative thinking. And, if I were a moderator I would be pleased to accomodate by doing for you.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[khobstetter]

GO TO THE CONVENTION!!!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[CHJoker]

GOOD WORK LIZ!!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Beth

[khobstetter]

GO TO THE CONVENTION!!!!!

I have seen the threads complaining about the cost BUT.....the cost is not out of line!!! I have clients in the barn that go to their "Industry Conventions" so I asked them what it costs them to go...

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Holy Cow...ours is REALLY CHEAP in comparison!!

I registered to go and it cost me $75.00 and that includes a Continental Breakfast and "lunch" everyday....that is NOT expensive.

I opted to NOT do the dinners and fancy stuff because I FEEL the real issue and the reason to go is the forums...OF COURSE I would love to sit and do 'tea" with the BNT's but that is not why I am going. I will tour downtown while they dine. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Yes, the hotel costs...well SHARE a room..it takes the cost way down to about the cost of Motel 6!!

And as far as air fare....I have a client who lives on the east coast and they shopped and shopped ticket prices and they are coming round trip for $287 each.

I know it's a bit of money BUT all conventions cost........

AGAIN...COME TO THE CONVENTION AND BE HEARD!!!!

If you can't, then PUT IN WRITING your ideas, complaints and suggestions and send them with someone you trust to get them there!!

It's YOUR association...be heard.

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[Snowbird]

OK! so who is going to be at the Annual Meeting (I fail to find any way this is some kind of convention).

Who will be there to discuss this on the floor in front of the committees to persuade them it is a matter of prime importance to everyone as a Member?

And whoever that is should be armed with the emails as well because there's sometimes at that busy time a slippage of paperwork. Even well intentioned people can make mistakes.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[War Admiral]

What I got out of Mr. Long's letter (and I may be reading inaccurately between the lines - if so I grovelingly apologize to him) was that HE NEEDS FEEDBACK from a very broad base of the membership. The more e-mails he gets, the better.

So please, guys, take a minute to e-mail.

We've got an ear there now, let's offer USEF some SUPPORT for dang once instead of 50-plus pages of whining into the empty ears of cyberspace for no apparent reason... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[khobstetter]

Speaking of sharing, is there anyone going who would like to share a room and the costs?? I have a couple of clients who want to go and will share and I also will share if we can find those interested share people....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[War Admiral]

Might get better responses on a separate thread??

Meanwhile, Snowbird/khobstetter/weatherford, would any of you like to print out the letter & the action proposals & put them in people's pockets??

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[Snowbird]

I will later today get posted on our old rebel site the letters and the proposed suggestions.
Members United Web Site (http://www.hunterjumper.org)


I suggest War Admiral that you take a look at the Rule Book and indentify eactly what you would change, amend, delete or add. They like to deal with specifics. If you propose a concept it just get's beat up and put up for further research.

I would do it but I'm still working on the Revisions to the By-Laws and I started another thread to remind you all while you're doing emails to send one regarding the fact that
At this time it is unnecessary to select a Hunter Affiliate Association

I have just learned that we now have in addition an application from Tom Struzzerri, he joins Gary Baker and Bill Moroney.

I think it's important that the By-Laws with full specifications be adopted first, or we will find ourselves with a mandatory membership fee and nothing back in return.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Just My Style]

Liz, I am so proud of you. Way to get the ball rolling.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[poltroon]

Are any of the members of the Hearing Committee adult amateur riders?

I have still not heard from USEF on my question about keeping a web archive of the Notices of Penalty, but don't worry, I haven't forgotten, and I won't just go away. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
GO TO THE CONVENTION!!!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

khobstetter,

Do you have a schedule which shows what meetings are being held when and are open to ordinary members? I would love to come and show support and lobby for my favorite causes, but I have been unable to find ANYTHING that would let me figure out a schedule.

[Snowbird]

All Committees are supposed to be open to all members. They have also said the Board Meetings will be open.

The Schedule is posted at http://wwww.usef.org (http://wwww.usef.org/convention/2004/schedule.php)
Schedule for the Convention (http://www.usef.org/convention/2004/schedule.php)

Battle Scarred Veteran

[INoMrEd]

I just sent my letter via email and Liz you should be receiving a copy of it as well.

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - DAVE BARRY

[Portia]

Oy vey maria. Stay away from the computer for a few days and this is what happens. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

War Admiral, I admire your efforts; please keep them up and please stay involved. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Poltroon, the list of committee members is available on the usef.org web site. Here's the hearing committee (http://www.usef.org/content/aboutUs/committeeDisplay/index.php?comm=5)

And -- pretty much on point to the discussion here -- here's the list of the newly formed ethics committee (http://www.usef.org/content/aboutUs/committeeDisplay/index.php?comm=120) We have our first meeting during the Annual Meeting, on Friday, January 16 from 3:00-5:00 p.m., in the Mediterranean Room. As you can see from the notice of what the committee is supposed to do, we have our work cut out for us, and need your input. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Snowbird, most of the meetings are open to all members. A few of them, however, are closed for various reasons. For example, Legal Review is closed to the public, because we have to discuss things that are protected by attorney-client and party communications privileges that would be lost if such discussions were open.

[poltroon]

Portia, I did see the list, but there are only a few names on there that I didn't recognize as being professionals - IMHO this committee in particular would be well served by some adult amateurs who are familiar with ethical standards outside the horse industry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Portia]

I agree with you Poltroon. As far as I can tell, there are only a few possibilities on the list of hearing committee members who might qualify as adult amateurs, and perhaps then only technically rather than in the sense I think you mean. That said, there are some very good people on the committee.

[poltroon]

Oh, I certainly don't mean to disparage anyone on the current Committee - the ones I know are wonderful, ethical people and I know there is a great deal of committment required. But I think as a matter of regular policy, this committee should definitely include people who have experience making their living outside of the horse industry.

[Portia]

We're on the same page, poltroon, and I know you didn't mean to knock the current members. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[mbp]

Nice job on many things War Admiral. In particular though, I love the listing of suggestions you have compiled. I would like to maybe forward those or references in an email, but is it OK with everyone who has made the proposals that they be forwarded and/or with their net-names attached?

Also, while I am very very much in favor of making fines and penalties go further towards paying the way of the programs, I do think that the committee has to have wriggle room for de minimis and non-intent violations. For example, if someone is giving a disclosed med but somehow the dosage ends up testing marginally high, or it can be shown that the animal was drugged maliciously by a 3rd party, etc. The thing about the drugs and meds approach is that it does not require any evil intent, just the presence of a drug that is not allowed. Which is fair as far as placings, etc. but for fines and penalties, if a horse was drugged by a third party to make it do worse or injure it, obviously the owner/trainer should not pay a big fine on top of having their horse violated. SO I think if specific rule changes are suggested they need to keep in mind the plethora of scenarios that might be presented.

BTW - representing both buyer and seller, as long as the representation is disclosed and there is informed consent, is OK I believe.

[War Admiral]

I would absolutely LOFF it if you (or anyone else reading this thread) sent these along. In particular I'd suggest sending stuff to John Long (jlong@usef.org) since he is actively soliciting ideas.

I think LH addressed your concerns in "the LH Proposal". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif More detail is in her original post on the suspension list thread (see: "The Oh Star Defense" which still makes me ROFL! Nice one, LH http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). If someone pokes a horse with something, USEF could then pull all the horse's previous tests and say gee, this horse never did test positive for that before.... which would create a presumption of innocence on horse owner/trainer's part...

Hope that helps.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[mbp]

Yes, it does help (Oh My Star(s) Defense?) LOL

[rottenrobbie]

My apologies for taking the subject off line. My letters have been emailed...you guys are great to put the whole list of email addresses together!

EVERYONE WRITE YOUR LETTERS...EVERY SINGLE ONE WILL COUNT!!!!

[This message was edited by Weatherford on Dec. 29, 2003 at 06:42 PM.]

[Weatherford]

OK - I am deleting references to EACH OTHER - it is INAPPROPRIATE - as you SHOULD know by now...

And I will definitely do eamils on Wed (not tonight, please, it is already WAY past my bedtime, and tomorrow is starting the horses again... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

And I MIGHT even reconsider RENEWING my membership.... That, however, remains a BIG might... :rolleyes"

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Weatherford]

Oh, on the subject of adult amateurs, I sat at a Zone 2 "Meeting" a couple of years ago and listened to my REPRESENTATIVES (one of whom I have generally liked and respected) say that there was NO WAY they were going to allow AMATEURS to have any say on how THEY run THEIR business - this went on for about an hour, and by the time it was done, I was absolutely LIVID...

This meeting is what drove me to be so involved in the NGB fight, as AB and company were promising CHANGE and change for the better - they HEARD the amateurs... AND some of those changes HAVE happened, but... well.. I refer you to my posts above...

HOWEVER - WE MUST KEEP FIGHTING - AS OUR HORSES ARE THE PRIORITY - and the more people EDUCATED and involved with our NGB that CARE about the horses, means better care for them!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Snowbird]

Amen! Weatherford and I did get two adult amateurs on the National hunter Committee but I thought another committee was doing the Zones so that is in my revisions for the Zone Committee and it needs everyone's support.

As you know Weatherford they are really weary of the old mountain lady who is the token member to represent the vast number of members.

I am sorely disappointed that the idea of endorsing unrecognized shows suevived while so many of our good concepts were left in the round file.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[War Admiral]

Just a morning bumpity...

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[Hopeful Hunter]

OK -- this is what I've sent. It covers several issues, and I'm not a member so it might be useless, but here it is. Good luck and THANK YOU to all who provided emails, ideas and inspiration!

Dear USEF Executives:

I've been hearing a lot lately about the new organization, new ideas and desires. As one of the multiple thousands who are past but not current USEF members, I've been giving this my ear recently and wanted to let you know of my concerns.

Thanks to a decent horse and increased skills, this older adult amateur hunter rider is finally considering dipping her toe in the rated show waters. But what I've been reading - and past experience with the old AHSA - gives me pause about spending my hard earned money on joining the USEF.

I was a member of AHSA when I got my first horse. Although I didn't show yet, I considered it important to support the organization -- I even got active in the late 1990s round of "we're going to market the sport" and had a letter in the magazine and conversations with headquarters on marketing that went nowhere (I run a showcase PR firm). Combined with the fact that the organization as it was then never even bothered to request my membership renewal, I let it lapse. The NGB fight further distanced me from the organization, and I took to watching from the sidelines and saving my money.

Today I would consider joining the new USEF, but am again not sure it's a good use of my funds. Here's why:
* Rampant abusive practices, particularly regarding drugging show hunters
* Continual secrecy about fines and penalties (there is no searchable archive of penalties or infractions, just a list of names)
* Lack of clarity about the future of the hunter discipline's governance (three organizations want to be "our" national affiliate? Are they set up to take on all the issues of governing? How will they BENEFIT members, if at all? Will this be yet another fee that yields nothing of value for the everyday participant?)
* Lack of a clear "value for membership" statement that is believable.

I know that a national governing body does provide some framework for a safer, level playing field, and that alone is worthy of support. But the costs of membership are VERY high for those of us who aren't A-circuit regulars, and the overall value is pretty low. Why, for example, are so many of the h/j sport's big names being suspended and fined? Why are those who are suspended allowed to essentially continue doing what they do, just from a headset instead of ringside? Why is there no way to look up a trainer or sales agent's name online and see if they've been censured by the organization and FOR WHAT, when and with what penalty imposed (there's a grave difference to most of us between forgetting paperwork and drugging!).

To get me, and probably many more people, to join and support the USEF I suggest you consider the following:

* REAL action when abuse of the horse is suspect. A SWIFT sanction, with a REAL fine that pays not only for the costs to the USEF for the testing and hearing process, but which has a genuine impact on the miscreants. A sliding scale I understand, but then the committee must justify the fine imposed. Make it meaningful -- try $5000 to $25,000 to BOTH the trainer and the owner in a case of drugging or other abuse, with a 3-12 month suspension. Don't wait until the same time next year -- that suspension should be immediate. For subsequent violations, double the fines AND make the trainer financially liable for having drug tests run on ALL of their horses for a 1-5 year period after they are allowed to show again! Treat this seriously, because your grassroots members and those you hope to join you do!

* Break the silence about suspensions' causes -- archive ALL suspensions, including names, dates, reasons and penalties and make it searchable. This will give the average rider a sense that the USEF is truly a GOVERNING body and a place where one can go for information of value.

* Don't impose yet another layer of membership on the hunters until there's a truly demonstrated need AND an organization with ability and support to be a national affiliate. Get the foundations poured, please, before you start building more structures and asking us to pay for them!

* Determine what value -- true, actual value -- the USEF brings to each of its affiliate sections and trumpet it! Give people a reason beyond "because you have to pay the fee to show" to join, whether it's in promoting better course design, better judging, assisting in finding trainers and information -- whatever. Your organization is a goldmine of data, surely there are ways to use that constructively to create genuine value -- and not "member rewards" programs for tractor discounts, either!

Do all of that and you might get not just my membership dollars, but a lot more as well. Good luck -- you face a daunting challenge in a difficult economy, but remember, the most important party of all in the sport -- THE HORSE -- is relying on YOU to do the right thing.

Sincerely,
Gina Kazimir

[freda1]

CONGRATULATIONS ON A FANTASTIC LETTER. EVERYTHING YOU SAID WAS TRUE. DON'T QUIT PRESENTING IT AND IF YOU WANT HELP/BACK-UP LET US KNOW. IF MORE PEOPLE WILL COME TO THE CONVENTIONS AND BE HEARD, SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE HAS TO PAY ATTENTION. LET'S CLEAN UP OUR SPORT!! THIS POLICY APPLIES TO ALL THE RULES AND REGULATIONS THEY IMPOSE AND ALL THE FEES/COST WE GET SADDLED WITH. ONE CANNOT JUST ROLLOVER AND SAY, "OHNWELL. WHAT CAN I DO

[Hopeful Hunter]

and I, too, got a VERY prompt and welcome response from Mr. Long! Maybe there's hope????!!!!!!!!!
----------
Gina--thanks for this. I am beginning to understand the issues to which you refer. I share your concern about the doping issues and am making one of my top priorities to get fully familiarized with the hearing process. As to membership, we want to get to the point where you want to belong rather, than have to. I know we can get there. Lastly, I know it is the horse. I've got a 12 year thoroughbred gelding that came from the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation.....65 starts over a 9 year racing career. Every time I get sideways with anything, I get on Bob. He straightens me out and will keep me focused on the tasks at hand. Happy New Year!

[War Admiral]

Thank you, Freda & HopefulHunter - you are making my day!!

That makes all of FIVE people who have sent e-mails.

No one else?? There's a 50-plus page thread on H/J, USEF reps are literally BEGGING for support on this issue, and no one can send a little e-mail that says "this stinks and I'd like to see it stopped"??

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[Pol]

I have written a great letter and now my GD computer won't send it. The first complaint it gave me was that Michelle Gibson's email address was wrong, so I deleted her name and now it won't send AT ALL. GRRRRRR http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[INoMrEd]

I have received 2 repsonses from the emails that I sent out so far both of them thanking me for my concern with their intentions of addressing these issues in the very near future!

Come on people write the email and sent it on, it only takes a few minutes of your time. USEF is anxiously waiting for more responses so they can address these issues of abuse, drugging and suspension at their annual meeting in Los Angeles next month.

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - DAVE BARRY

[Peggy]

Done and also cc'd to main officers of USDF, CDS, and USEA. I couldn't find a contact email for PCHA. Now I can start my syllabus for the course that starts on Monday.

It really is quite easy. I copied the email addy's enmass and pasted them directly into the TO and CC boxes of my email program and was pleasantly surprised when they went in with the proper format. The only thing I had to do was take out the headers for the names of the committees and the job titles.

I've attached my letter as a PDF (or will, once I switch browsers --OOPS it doesn't take PDFs so is now a DOC; double OOPS, now trying text).

BTW, I don't live too far from downtown LA. Although I am probably too cheap to pay the registration fee, I hope to come on Friday for the HJ affiliate meeting and whatever else I can get into at a reasonable cost.

Edited to add: I got an almost immediate response from John Long. Two emails bounced back with bad addresses-William Crawford and Mitch Sperta.

[This message was edited by Peggy on Dec. 30, 2003 at 05:28 PM.]

[CHJoker]

Hi Guys!

I did not get a response from John Long, but I did get a response from a committee member.

It was stated that there are two attorneys, Bill Roose, and Ira Finkelstein who control the comittee, and have for many years. Evidently, they call the shots, and charge the organization big bucks for their advice. But, the comittee member was in agreement (with us), and had been trying for change.

I have to ask...doesn't the committee vote? How is it that two attorneys could be ruling an entire committee? How does it work?

Thanks!!

Beth

[This message was edited by CHJoker on Dec. 30, 2003 at 06:19 PM.]

[This message was edited by CHJoker on Dec. 30, 2003 at 06:20 PM.]

[Hopeful Hunter]

MORE responses -- they may actually take this seriously...
---------
Ms. Kazimir,
Thank you and we will be in further contact with you regarding your concerns.

Ms. Thompson, thank you for forwarding Ms Kazimir and Mr. Hosmer concerns to my attention.

Letitia A. Damron
Director, Rules Compliance
Secretary to the Hearing Committee
U.S. Equestrian
859-225-6949
859-258-9792(fax)
ldamron@usef.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Eve Thompson [mailto:eve@bernicebarbour.org]

Subject: Re: USEF concerns

Thank you for writing. The Hearing Committee will meet in a few weeks in Los Angeles, and I will ask to have your e-
letter added to the agenda, along with a number of others which I have received.

Eve Lloyd Thompson

[Weatherford]

Having worked with Ira and Bill on the NGB fight, I will attest to their honesty and ethical behaviour - really, really great guys. And they REALLY care!!!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[CHJoker]

Hmmmm...what's going on here.

It sounds like some infighting to me (from what my email response said). It could have been misinterpreted by me, but the committee member sounded not so crazy about these two lawyers. It almost sounded like a blame, to be really honest.

Oh well, not to be distracted. Good!! I hope the two lawyers are really good, honest,and ethical!

So, is anyone going to the meeting in LA? War Admiral? Are you anywhere near the LA area? It would be nice if some of you could go, and voice our concerns. Would anyone be willing to do this?

[Sonesta]

Ok, I just sent off my email to John Long in support of taking a hard line stand against the improper use of drugs in competition horses, HUGE fines and LENGTHY suspensions for offenders, and a database of names and details that is accessible by all. I supported the idea of a night steward and increased testing at recognized shows.

Here's hoping they actually DO take us seriously.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.&lt;BR&gt;
"Find something you love & call it work."

[Xhltsalute]

Just an FYI.........sent off my support of your open letter to all those e-mails listed.

Of the ones I was able to check, Bbbacon1 and RSDoughert just DELETED the e-mails and didn't even read them.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[This message was edited by Xhltsalute on Dec. 30, 2003 at 11:14 PM.]

[Bumpkin]

I sent off to all the emails yesterday, and have gotten a few responces http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I also posted this thread over on UDBB

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

[Snowbird]

OK! mine is on it's way too! I hope we actually get an answer and some support and not platitudes about why they can't do it.



Dear David,

I’ve listened for years to how all the offensive rules and regulations which discriminated against the Grassroots Exhibitor were there to protect the horses. But, those rules have never protected the horses only the people who chose to be competitive at the most expensive shows. We do not even have a definition yet of what exactly is “grass roots�.

I want to lend my support to all those who have been awakened by the recent suspensions and realize as I have for a long time; there is no reason why the FEI standards for zero tolerance should be only at the highest level of competition. There is no logical reason that a horse can have even trace amounts of various medications just because it is not competing in an International Class. If it is a young horse on its way up it should not require performance altering drugs, and if it’s a horse on its way down that requires that medication perhaps it should not be competitive. Since we offer “horse� competitions and not “people� competitions and the point is to find the best horses how it is logical that any kind of performance alteration is acceptable, I do not understand that thinking.

As to the threat that worse things will be done to the horses if they cannot medicate them, that is bogus. I must say that I have learned more about how to abuse a horse in the web than I care to know. I have participated in Recognized Horse Shows since 1971and would not have done so if I thought my children were going to learn that it was acceptable to use performance altering drugs for any reason in any competition. What kind of example is that for the children and young trainers?

I cannot conceive of any reason why as a show manager I should be required to supply a container for the needles used to inject horses when horses should not be injected in the first place unless by a veterinarian in which case he can dispose of his own wastes. The Federation speaks with a forked tongue if it says do not medicate but here’s a container if you do. When I started in this industry it was simple sportsmanship that prevented abuses because it was not the winning but the competing that was important. We had a system of winning out and up to the next level and I frequently explained to new riders that losing was what this sport was all about. WHY? Because we were always qualifying; if you won a blue ribbon you moved up to the next level where you would lose again until you could win three blue ribbons and so on up to the Open Sections.

I have been offering Recognized shows for over 30 years because I believed in the principles of fair play and a level competition equal to everyone. This sport was the first one to never discriminate by sex, color, age or even physical condition of the rider. I was very proud of that and it’s why I stayed in this industry. Over the years all those basic principles have been eroded to the point that it is now people who can buy the blue ribbons that are a first consideration. And, because of that we have trainers who will prostitute themselves for money by putting the need for instant gratification of the ego of a client over welfare of the horses. It has to stop and we have to police ourselves.

There are criminal laws that prevent the abuse of animals and there are fraud laws that prevent the manipulation by medication of the results of any competition for personal benefit. This Federation if it is ever to be considered with respect has to enforce those laws. I suggest that when there is a conviction by the Hearing Committee the fines and punishments be increased and that the state where the event occurred be notified of a violation of their state laws regarding fraud and abuse to animals.

Yes, this will be painful at first because it has become so acceptable to be dishonest, but for the next generations there will still be a sport and an industry if we endure the pain now. Judging from the names on the suspension list it may weed down a lot of the committees. There are 98% of the members of the Federation that have never been heard or considered who would cheerfully volunteer to replace any of those who feel the need to violate the law. I want to remind you that the value of what we do is not limited to who are or are not Olympians or Horse of the Year recipients we are responsible for the welfare of the economy of this country. The horse industry is fourth or fifth in importance in every one of our states and nationally we are responsible for a huge piece of the National Domestic Product.

Every community in this country depends on you to protect horses and the horse industry so that we have open green spaces with a most pristine and beautiful use. Children depend on you to give them a fair chance at the brass ring. The Ted Stephens Amateur Athlete Act itself demands a ladder from the bottom to the top. And the law requires that the horses will not be abused or endangered and that there be no fraud within competitions.

· All the shows from A/B/C have very little support for the USEF Rated Divisions WHY?

· Are these the ‘Grassroots� or is it the unrecognized shows?

· Do the Zone Committees represent the needs of the shows of lower ratings?

· Should ratings be based on money offered or on level of difficulty?

· How can we make the ladder so that there are no missing rungs?

In my opinion these are the issues we need to be concerned with because there is no excuse ever for the Federation to look the other way when any horse is being misused to meet the needs of ego for the rider and owner or to enrich the trainers.

You will I hope receive many emails from the silent majority of your Membership. I hope that you can appreciate that for each one you actually receive there are 5,000 members who either are unaware or would have sent you an email except they feel unimportant misused and abused themselves. These are the people you will want to see as spectators if you expect to find those multi million dollar corporate sponsors. The first step in the evolution of this sport is the end of special interests predicated on dollars spent or won.

There are only 25,000 horses that ship into Florida for the winter and there are multi thousands more that stay home and need to feel welcome in the Federation. There is a majority of people who believe that children should go to school, and there are a majority of adults that work for a living and cannot attend 5 day marathons week after week. I would not want my children or my grandchildren to live on the road in tack rooms and motels. And, I do not want them in an environment where it is acceptable to use performance altering drugs on their horses and ponies just so they can feel good for a few minutes and win a $3.00 piece of rayon. Winning is just not that important and it should not have to be the choice I make.

I think that the biggest division in this sport is between those who are willing to support their horses and

those who expect their horses to support them.

Thank you for you time reading this and I appreciate the great sacrifice that you make in trying to improve this sport and grow this industry. I simply feel you need to see the other side of the coin as well.

Vikki Karcher Siegel

Battle Scarred Veteran

[retreadeventer]

It's a groundswell that is becoming a roar, and the powers that be in the new USEF had best lend an ear...the times, they be a changin'...it's a new day, brothers and sisters. Let the Grass Roots speak and be heard! The mighty shall tumble and the weak be strong. What if we could actually make a difference in our lifetimes? Think of the horses we would save from crippling lameness and constant drugging and doping. More poultice, less bute! More grooming and training, less L-T-D and ace! Onward Christian soldiers! Sorry, I'm getting carried away. Hollihorse

Don't underestimate the power of a single committed person. They say one person can't change the world, but indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

[poltroon]

I sent a letter to John Long, cc'd to the committee and O'Connor and Lengel.

[Snowbird]

Well step one it's on the Agenda for LA. I just received this as well.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Vikki:
I have received a number of e-letters from concerned exhibitors, which I have forwarded to Letitia Damron at USEF, the Director of Rule Compliance, asking her to put them on the agenda of the Hearing Committee meeting in Los Angeles.

I will do the same with this one if you like, with your permission.

Eve Lloyd Thompson
Bernice Barbour Foundation, Inc.
14434 Laurel Trail
Wellington, FL 33414
Phone 561.791.0861
Fax 561.753.9153

e-mail eve@bernicebarbour.org
Web Site www.bernicebarbour.org&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://www.bernicebarbour.org<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/b)

Needless to say my permission is already on it's way.

Now the big issue is who will there to present the case to the Hearing Committee. While I will be there I am better at writing than making personal presentations and better at responding than initiating the discussion.

Who else can be there and who that will be there could we count on to assist us? Well done War Admiral you have cracked the glass wall.

Round trip tickets non-stop from Newark to LA only $260.00, rooms can be shared by two people at no extra cost. I'm certain that some of our California friends will recommend less expenisve hotels if needed. You can also chip in for a suite and brave ones can sleep in sleeping bags. I'm sure there are some Fast food places within walking distance.

This is the moment in time when the Membership needs to be there to be heard.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Tackpud]

E-mail sent - a copy is on it's way to you War Admiral. Not sure I'll be able to get to the convention - for some reason my school likes us to teach classes during the week! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But I'm behind those who are there!

[Portia]

In my experience of them, Bill Roos and Ira Finkelstein are both very competent, knowledgeable, ethical lawyers.

I'm guessing the problem with the lawyers' relationships with some of the committee members is that the lawyers have to make sure every "t" is crossed and "i" is dotted. They have to review everything the committee does to confirm it is supported by the rules and by the law, which I imagine can be frustrating to some non-lawyer committee members.

Bill and Ira are guys who are saying, "no, you can't do that because it isn't supported by the rules and doing it might lead to X,Y, and Z nasty consequences and liability for the organization." They have to do that, because they are the guys who have to be prepared to defend every action the committee takes if that action is challenged in court or in arbitration.

Legal technicalities are frustrating but necessary. And lawyers get used to being the annoying person everyone else hates. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Snowbird]

I am very grateful considering the holidays and how busy he must that David O'Connor answered my letter so promptly. It is a good sign that perhaps this new Federation will keep it's promises to us as members.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thanks for the letter. It is a well thought out arguement in favor of horses. I really believe there are many changes to our current system that need/ought to be done. I believe that each of the disciplines need to relook at their goals and what they have created to take action if so desired. THis will be pushed by the "Federation" but we need to reevaluate, in all disciplines, what has been created.

I promise to keep these issues in front of everyone starting at this years convention and then find a way to keep the pressure on. We all need to be a part of the solution though. We need concrete proposals to the problems and these need to come from the people in the know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Battle Scarred Veteran

[mbp]

I sent something, but one thing I wonder about that I don't think has been discussed. I know that USEF will have no direct ability to take any actions against any veterinarians involved, even if they have a great deal of evidence as to a vet's improper actions. HOWEVER, couldn't the Hearings Committee adopt a policy where, if they find evidence of a vet acting to help a competitor circumvent the drugs and medications rules, or to help conceal abuse, they as a matter of course forward their information to the applicable state licensing boards and request that those boards censure, suspend or take other action in respect of the vet? I'm thinking that could add some punch.

[XHalt]

That was amazing. You hit the nail on the head!

[CHJoker]

Ummm...guys,

I have a question. Is it legal to post the quotes of the responses to our letters??

I am in Switzerland, and someone would have to REALLY want to track me down http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but generally, is a private email publishable without persmission?

thanks,

Beth

[War Admiral]

Wow. You guys helped get it on the agenda for the Hearing Committee.

Thank you. Avery thanks you. Willem thanks you. And many many other horses thank you too.

Now, let's keep the e-mails coming - particularly to the Hearing Committee and to John Long - e-mail addresses are on page 5 of this thread.

You might also send e-mails to Brian Sosby, the editor of Equestrian - his most recent e-mail to me was effectively BEGGING for more feedback from you all!!! Not just on this, but on WHATEVER concerns you may have!!

We really do have some responsive and well-intentioned people in our NGB, and I think now is the time to give them some support.

Blessings on all of you who have sent e-mails.

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[horsegirl33]

chjoker,

I think if it's your own email, it's your property and you have a right to do with it whatever you want? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe? But if not, just paraphrase what they say! That's definitley not illegal, right?

Keep up the great work guys!

***God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses***

~~member of the Chicken Jumper Clique (AND PROUD OF IT!!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, IHSA clique & only child clique~~

[ESG]

Gee, Liz, bet you never thought you'd get this kind of action from one little letter. Full marks to you, girl!

I'm still mentally composing my letter to all on the list y'all so kindly compiled. From what I've read here today, I'm a bit ashamed that I haven't done it yet, and will make it my newest resolution to get it done today.

Well done Liz! It's true, one person can change things for the better. Thank you for reminding us of that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Lazy Palomino Hunter]

Ok... so what exactly do you do? I have a letter typed up... do I sent it to ALL the email addresses listed at once? Or just Mr. Long and Mr. O'Connor? Or just the committee? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Alison

Farriers are like cats. They don't like to go out in the rain and they don't come when you call them.

[Pol]

As I reported a while ago, my computer had some issues with a few of the email addresses on the list and refused to send. I ended up sending my letter to David and Dr. Lengel. I hope that will be useful. Good going, kids.

[War Admiral]

Send it to all of them. You'll get a couple of bounce messages, but that's OK. If you have AOL, just delete the e-mail addresses that are bouncing and re-send.

The hearing committee in particular needs to hear from you before the convention.

Thanks!!!

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[JulieMontgomery]

Liz, are you planning to go to the convention? You can email me privately if you wish....

JPM

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of his devotion."
Author Unknown....

[War Admiral]

Unfortunately, no. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I've had a rough year and it just isn't viable either financially or timewise, never even MIND if I want to keep my new job. Not by any means intended as a whine BTW - just the sordid facts!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)

[CHJoker]

Okay, so who is going?? We need representatives!!

We need organization!!

I, for one, am willing to donate a few bucks to the cause.

We should have some sort of organization here, so that we can have some representatives attend the meetings and give us feedback of what is going on, plus make it possible for those of us who are so inclined (and cannot attend in person due to the Atlantic ocean (me), or other geological or financial reason) to make a small contribution to the meeting fees.

But I would really like to make sure that the money would TRULY go to the entry fee for the meeting, and that the person going would in fact be willing to speak up, and voice the collective opinion. It is expensive to attend, and alot of us working girls (and boys)just don't have the money or time. BUT...the"professionals" who are committing the crimes probably do...and they probably make sure they hobnob and know so and so, and I'll bet they are VERY aware of all the issues on the table. We should be too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What do you think?

Beth

[Lazy Palomino Hunter]

What's you email Liz? I sent it to the USEF members, but you wanted a copy too, correct?

Alison

Farriers are like cats. They don't like to go out in the rain and they don't come when you call them.

[Snowbird]

Unless the email says you may not, an email like a cell phone is considered public information, It's on the open web where hackers can read anyone's email and it's on the servers where anyone can have access.

Representation Yes! you need as many warm bodies as possible even if they don't talk up; because that's what counts in any politics. In the olden days what the AHSA did was fill the room with the employees and when a hand vote was called they all voted even though they were not members with a vote that should have counted. They always won at the Forums that way.

A verterinarian is licensed by the state and not the USEF so the Federation has no authority over them, but if there is a serious charge they could go to the Attorney General of that state and bring criminal charges.

What I find so offensive is that those suspended can use radios from a place just off the grounds and still do business as usual so the suspension is in essence not enforced. They send a clean member in to officiate as the trainer at the show.

Anyone who goes can't stand there and talk in generalities, it will make them feel better but accomplish nothing. They need to have in place exact proposals of what needs to be done by proposing how to amend the existing By-Laws and Rule book. That would be considered a constructive suggestion otherwise it's just more whining.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[CHJoker]

Well, to date, this is the only response that I received, from Frank Lloyd. Kind of strange, in that I wasn't expecting the seemingly blaming tone, especially after several people here said (after I asked) they (Bill Roose and Ira Finkelstein) are reputable and ethical.

For what it's worth:

Email received from Frank Lloyd on 29Dec03:

"I agree. But understand that attorneys Bill Roose And Ira Finkelstein have controlled this committee for many years. I have triedÂ* for many years to change this but without making a difference.I am an attorney and have been on the hearing committee for a number of years.They call the shots and charge the orginization HUGE dollars for their advice.Thank you for your insight.."

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Beth

[Pol]

Done and done!

[Snowbird]

Remember Frank Lloyd is from the USET side of the table and the other lawyers are from the USAE so there's not going to be much in friendly exchanges there.

I think professional differences are going to exist but I am surprised that an attorney would send you such a quote, although I have no doubt they have never agreed on any decision.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Weatherford]

He was definitely on the USET side and rumor has it, a pain in the wrong end during the negotiations...

At the first USOC hearing, the USET lawyers seemed, literally, incompetent... Of course, the is simply IMHO!!!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Snowbird]

Isn't it true that he and Armand Leone were also both supposed to resign if Alan Balch resigned? Not too much honor between gentlemen I think.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[Weatherford]

ACtually, that part was withdrawn during the last round... UNFORTUNATELY.... Maybe overlooked??

Another agenda item shoudl be CONFLICT OF INTEREST rules - see the COTH article on Rule change proposals. While the gentleman who is addressing this is particularly concerned about the management committee, I think it should apply across the board, and perhaps we need to find him and give him our support, especially if he broadens his focus...

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[canterlope]

As an incoming member of the Events Committee, I will be in LA and am willing to do whatever to help this effort. Just let me know where I need to be and what I can do that will be of greatest help.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.

[Pol]

Hey...Here's the email I sent to the whole gang.
&gt;&gt;Ladies and Gentlemen:

With the Annual Meeting fast approaching and as a member in good standing of both the USEA and USEF, I would like to make my feelings known on the subject of illicit drug and medications' usage during competitions sponsored by my organizations. Having experienced random drug testing of my Event horse on two separate occasions, I applaud the practise of testing for illicit drugs at all levels, at all competitions. However, I believe the practise has become somewhat soft and needs to be increased in its intensity. I believe:
~ Testing should be increased- more horses tested at more competitions, BN-CCI**** (and in all other disciplines, who's divisions I do not know)
~ Fines should be enormous. Through payment of these fines, the testing costs could be covered
~ Suspensions should be much longer and should be enforced
~ Notice of Suspension should be given a place of prominence in Federation publications, including photographs of offenders
~ Include Night Stewards for the barns on the lists of required officials

I believe any abuse of horses, through medication or physical maltreatment, is inexcusable and should be punished to the greatest extent of the law. Our Federation is responsible for protecting our Equine partners from the occasional miscreant. Causing identification and punishment to be swift and intense may prove to be enough of a deterrent to protect our horses.

Sincerely,
Polly Merrill&lt;&lt;

This is the email I received from John Long this morning:


&gt;&gt;
Polly--thanks for taking the time to write. I completely agree with you
and want you to know that this will be one of my most important
priorities.......jl&lt;&lt;

[This message was edited by Pol on Jan. 02, 2004 at 11:11 AM.]

[Portia]

Drafting an appropriate conflict of interest policy is the a major stated goal of the Ethics Committee. The members of the committee are Andrew Ellis (whom I like and respect), Lisa Blackstone, Keith Bartz, Hida Gurney, and Jennifer Price (an OK AA. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here's the description from the website:
"The Ethics Committee shall draft a Code of Ethics for volunteers and staff (“the Code�) establishing minimum standards for the volunteers (including members of the Board of Directors, Committees and task forces) and staff, for adoption by the Board of Directors. The committee shall also provide continuing attention to the Code and its enforcement, make recommendations to the Board or Executive Committee with respect to ethical conduct, recommend to the Board amendments to the Code, and review and investigate such matters relating to ethical practice as it may deem appropriate."

[dressager]

I'm just one person, but I sent an email to Jlong@usef.org and Brian Sosby (hope I got the address right- I used bsosby@usef.org) asking them to create an online suspension list. Although I strongly believe in the other points (increased fines, longer suspensions, etc) this was the only one I felt I could argue well.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

[Snowbird]

There apparently was a response from John Long to J.Turner saying that it might be up in a month. Check out the other thread.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[mbp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A verterinarian is licensed by the state and not the USEF so the Federation has no authority over them, but if there is a serious charge they could go to the Attorney General of that state and bring criminal charges <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that the USEF has no direct input and to be honest, it would not likely to be a criminal issue if a vet gave reserpine to a horse that would be competing.

But state licensure boards have a lot broader powers and rights than to simply act with respect to criminal violations. For example, a vet can be suspended for failing to comply with CLE requirements, etc. things that are not criminal and are solely set by the board. They can also act on a wide variety of complaints, including ethics based complaints (should the vet have charged me $1,000 for a surgery when my animal was going to die of xyz anyway and they never told me that etc.)

So, while having the hearings committee foward something one time might not get a response, if there are multiple complaints related to the same vet, the licensure board can usually take some actions. I see it as a little bit similar to the human drug issue. If you go after the dealers (trainers) or users (owners) here, but never the suppliers --- you are missing one of the major sources of the problem.

A censure is better than nothing - particularly if it is a public censure. I think it wouldn't hurt for them to forward, as a matter of course, info that directly involves or implicates a vet to that vet's state licensing board. It just seems that the vet in the transaction should not be "worry free".

[Snowbird]

I agree with that and in addition to notifying the state Attorney General where the violation occurred of an instance of cruelty and abuse to animals as well as fraud in competition.

I think both steps would have an immediate and inexpensive way to reduce the problems immediately.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[BasqueMom]

Wow, War Admiral--just read your letter. Awesome! Much more goes on than I knew about.

Way to go!

Julie

www.centaurfencing.com (http://www.centaurfencing.com)

[Weatherford]

Bump = WHO is going to be in LA???

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Peggy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Weatherford:
Bump = WHO is going to be in LA???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I'm kind of here on a FT basis http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

Was considering going up Friday as Snowbird mentioned that one of the HJ assn meetings was open to those who are cheap to pay the registration. Sure hope it's the one from 2-5 and not 8-9.

[Laurie@CBF]

Unfortunately mpb - the veterinary "supplier" of some of these drugs may be more difficult to find than one would think. These professionals often use multiple veterinarians. Resourceful/unscrupulous trainers will find that out of the way veterinarian that may not be aware of the showing rules - and out and out lie to the veterinarian as to the intention/need for certain medications. The trainers are certainly not going to give up their "sources".

How easy is it to put a bandage on a horse and ask a veterinarian for a shot of reserpine to keep it quiet while on stall rest?

It could become quite a "shell game".

At the race track they have tried to solve this by requiring veterinarians to have a track license. Even some training centers require an additional license. All medications given to any horse is logged in to "day sheets". The goal being that there is a paper trail for each medication given to each horse.

[Pol]

Another positive response from a committee member just came in. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif