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View Full Version : Anyone else think that canter pirouette should just go away??



2ndyrgal
Sep. 30, 2010, 09:56 AM
Because I watched something like 250 of them over the last two days at WEG and STILL can't figure out what the judges are looking for and how they are scoring them. Makes me just think they should take it out or figure out exactly what a good one is, and then just give everyone that does one that stalls out or isn't correct a 3 and move on.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:27 AM
No. A Spanish rider scored a 10 on a pirouette a few years ago. Can't recall his name, the horse or anything, but did see the video. Impressive, and everything a pirouette should be. Good pirouettes separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps where the judge is sitting relative to the movement colors their perception?

Now that renvers in Second Level 4 (Second 3, for 2011, I think) -- THAT should go, because we suck at it! :lol:

Hampton Bay
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:49 AM
...

Now that renvers in Second Level 4 (Second 3, for 2011, I think) -- THAT should go, because we suck at it! :lol:

We are good at renvers! I would rather they take out the simple changes because they get my mare all worked up and full of herself, and not in a good way.

princessfluffybritches
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:02 PM
Keep them, but,
I wish they'd do away with those double pirouettes. It used to be one go around. Was beautiful. The second one is never as good.

myvanya
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:40 PM
nope- they definitely have specific things they look for and they show specific skills. After watching my trainer do them and talking with her about them and reviewing photos of hers in various stages I am at least more able to recognize good ones from less than good ones. I don't pretend to know much but I don't think we should eliminate a movement because I don't fully understand it yet :)

Quest52
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:52 PM
I don't think so. It use to be one of my highest scores on my young rider horse; he had amazing pirouettes! To sit a correct pirouette is akin to sitting a really nice extended trot. It is a wonderfully refined movement that definitely has it's place in FEI.

mbm
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:06 PM
i kinda agree.... what in general is being done isnt really a CP... it is more of a rear-o-ette.....

there should be 3 beat, with eh horse still in canter.... not back feet planted and forelegs pawing the air :)

meupatdoes
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:31 PM
i kinda agree.... what in general is being done isnt really a CP... it is more of a rear-o-ette.....

there should be 3 beat, with eh horse still in canter.... not back feet planted and forelegs pawing the air :)

Pirouettes CAN'T be three beat, I don't think.

When you get into pirouettes the three beat canter becomes a four beat gait. Look closely- the non leading foreleg strikes the ground *after* the diagonally opposite hind.

Alagirl
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:32 PM
Pirouettes CAN'T be three beat, I don't think.

When you get into pirouettes the three beat canter becomes a four beat gait. Look closely- the non leading foreleg strikes the ground *after* the diagonally opposite hind.


I have actually seen a 3 beat Pirouette once...but it wasn't a dressage rider, just one of them Spanish hacks doing a thing with a long pole....wonderful TV special, also had the top dressage lady at the time doing a kur....her pirouette looked more like a Terre-a-terre on a circle....

I actually prefer a 4 bat over the 2 beat...


But I think it's judged along these lines:
Canter? check
small circle? check
rider recognition? add 2 points for known pilot...4 for well known one. deduct 2 for lesser known ones...

They might as well do away with it, they are not judging it by their own rules...

BetterOffRed
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:23 PM
I think Toto has beautiful pirouettes.

And Rusty...omg! Rusty had the most beautiful pirouettes!

cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:59 PM
The double pirouette is great thats when you start to get the real gymnastic effect of it. Its like, doing half walk pirouettes is kind of pointless, they should be full walk pirouettes the 2nd part is when you got the good effect of it. Reinbacks, halts, walk pirouettes, canter pirouettes, transitions, extended and collected walk thats where I get all my points on when I have less than perfect movers!

Isabeau Z Solace
Sep. 30, 2010, 06:46 PM
Even the cover of DT publishes pirouettes with two hind legs on the ground. Which phase of the (3 beat) canter has 2 hind legs on the ground ?? Does anyone know of any pictures with the canter in 3 beat ? So, outside hind leg on the ground only ?

dwblover
Sep. 30, 2010, 06:56 PM
To me the canter pirouettes are the best part of Grand Prix dressage. I dare to dream of riding some one day. The judges want to see between 6-8 canter steps in each pirouette, and the pirouette needs to end on the same line it started. Also, the judges want to see the canter maintain the jump and rhythm.

Laura B.'s horse Alf has fantastic pirouettes, so watch his for good ones. Very balanced, not appearing to scramble or quicken, just steady and very even.

spirithorse
Sep. 30, 2010, 06:57 PM
In Disney's 1963 movie about the White Stallions, one of the riders from SRS does a canter pirouette.
The difference between that BEAUTIFUL one and the competitive ones is simply that the riders are trying to pirouette in the smallest circle possible and as such dilutes the canter or trot.
The canter and trot pirouette should be done with the hind legs making a circle and the front legs making another circle.
In competitive dressage the pirouette has become fundamentally like the spin in reining. Trying desperately to keep the hind feet turning in almost one spot.............

Go Fish
Sep. 30, 2010, 07:53 PM
In competitive dressage the pirouette has become fundamentally like the spin in reining. Trying desperately to keep the hind feet turning in almost one spot.............

Uh, no. Reiners make use of a pivot foot (one). It's planted and the other hind foot pushes. Not every horse is successful, particularly in 4 spins. But that's the ideal.

Beentheredonethat
Oct. 1, 2010, 11:16 PM
Absolutely not. A really good pirouette does separate the wheat from the chaff, like a 6-7 step moving forward piaffe from a real one does. It's VERY hard to get it all correctly, and judges need to do a better job at judging it, but it is the thing that is one of the pinnacles of getting everything right. Quest is right--sitting on a good pirouette is amazing. You just know you got it right, and you HAVE to to get that feeling.

An excellent pirouette is 6 to 8 steps, correct bend, relaxed, and almost on the spot. The last part is the thing that only the best horses really get. It's not rewarded enough, I think.

And, it cannot be three beat. It's an illusion that people have put forward that just doesn't work. It is always a bit four beat. If you've ever closely watched videos or ridden one, you know.

Carol O
Oct. 2, 2010, 12:14 AM
My 25 yo DWB still loves doing CP. He is in favor of perfomance standards, but asks that, please, leave his CP alone.

CFFarm
Oct. 2, 2010, 09:22 AM
I see the OP's point. It's not usually the best movement in a test but when you see a good one you remember it.

Alpha Mare
Oct. 2, 2010, 01:13 PM
I don't like the pirouettes because I do not see where they gymnastize the horse - rather I see more horses with hock problems from a lot of pirouette practice. IMO a half pirouette would be enough - logically, a way to turn around in a tight spot. The full pirouette does not make sense to me and a double I consider a circus movement.

judging is another topic...

Beentheredonethat
Oct. 2, 2010, 05:21 PM
Alpha--I disagree with you completely. I think pirouettes are a super strengthening movement. It takes a LOT to do them well and you have to be very careful. I'm actually using it as part of a focus to strengthen and even her out. And you need the full pirouette versus half to show that you can maintain the balance correctly versus using momentum. The double gets ridiculous, though.

FEI1Day
Oct. 2, 2010, 09:02 PM
No way! Love, love, LOVE the cp! It's one of my horse's signature moves and my absolute favorite movement to ride.

J Lav
Oct. 3, 2010, 04:44 PM
An excellent pirouette is 5 to 6 steps, correct bend, relaxed, and almost on the spot. The last part is the thing that only the best horses really get. It's not rewarded enough, I think.



According to the rules an excellent pirouette is 6 - 8 steps.

Beentheredonethat
Oct. 3, 2010, 05:08 PM
Yes, you're correct. I was mixing it up with what I was saying about seeing 5-6 step on the spot piaffe.