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Fantastic
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:49 AM
NOT a common incident, yet the press kind of presents it that way! :rolleyes: Kind elastic giving contact = quiet mouth = NO TONGUE BITING. Duh!!

Where is the AMERICAN press? Hello, Dressagedaily? Where are you? Are you quiet because we are the host country, or what's the problem??? Why is it that we have to go to foreign sites - Horseandhound - to read the story? Where is Eurodressage and Horse2rider?

Anyone else ever had their horse bite their tongue? :rolleyes: Or, anyone ever witnessed another horse bite it's tongue while ridden? I don't think it's a common occurrence! :mad:

This really is apauling, the "tongue biting" incident with Adelinde Cornelissen. If the rider had a proper connection = kind, giving, elastic hands, and had the horse over his back into a receiving hand, and not curled up, none of this would have happened.

I hope the Dutch are ashamed and embarrassed! Sadly, they probably are not, as this style of riding seems to be their national style!

dwblover
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:00 AM
I have to agree, this sounds like a sad excuse for blood in the horse's mouth! I've been riding for 23 years and I have never seen a horse bite his own lip or tongue while being ridden. I suppose he may have bitten his lip if he was gaping his mouth open and then chomping down hard on the bit as the photos of warm-up would suggest.

Boy, I've never been an anti-rollkur person in the past, but these WEG games have really brought it to my attention. This stuff makes all of us dressage riders look so bad. I could never bring myself to contort my horse that way.

Fantastic
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:16 AM
A very sad excuse, indeed! I have never seen it either! The cavalier attitude of the press is nauseating. Why not tell it like it is and explain the REAL cause = hyperflexion?!?

I have yet to see such nonsense in my close to 40 years of horses. I just haven't seen this tongue biting nonsense in the multiple disciplines that I have competed in, with 24 years of that being in dressage. Good chance it happened to someone at some show or barn I was at, but I certainly can't remember.

I want to see pictures! I want to see the proof and the damage done to the tongue. If this truely is the case, she will not be riding the horse for a while!

Janet
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:17 AM
Anyone else ever had their horse bite their tongue? :rolleyes:
Yes, I have had it happen once. But at this point I don't remember which horse it was, or what we were doing. (but NOT Rollkur)

crittertwitter
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:24 AM
I just posted the same observation over on the WEG subforum. Have *never* seen a horse bite their tongue or lip in competition or elsewhere.

I hate to jump on the proverbial bandwagon of worst case conclusions. I just don't see how this could have happened without extremely counter-intuitive stress put on her horse. What are the chances that he was moving around with pride and elegance and suddenly, d'oh, there was a lip in the way!

War Admiral
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:25 AM
Yes, I have had it happen once. But at this point I don't remember which horse it was, or what we were doing. (but NOT Rollkur)

I've been riding for 48 years, have had it happen once, and I *do* remember what we were doing. It was 100% rider error. I was around 14 years old, just learning to jump, and absolutely totally missed my distance, planting my poor horse in the MIDDLE of an oxer. Poles flying everywhere. I don't know if he hit his head on a pole, or on the ground, or what, but yes he did bite his lip, severely enough to draw blood, but it healed well and quickly.

By the grace of God that was the only injury he suffered - it could have been so much worse. One pole hit me in the cheekbone and fractured it; to this day I'm so grateful that I took a worse hit than my horse did!

So it does happen, but in my experience, it's pretty darn rare.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:25 AM
I hate to jump on the proverbial bandwagon of worst case conclusions. I just don't see how this could have happened without extremely counter-intuitive stress put on her horse.

Like being in a strange place at a huge international event. :eek::eek:

FYI, horses have done a lot worse in such venues...:rolleyes:

Fantastic
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:27 AM
Thank you, Janet! :) This obviously DOES happen to the INNOCENT (you), but it is the GUILTY party and situation (Adelinde and hyperflexion) that seems to be subdued. If Parcival really did bite his tongue, the rough style of riding surely is a contributing factor!

crittertwitter
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:33 AM
Like being in a strange place at a huge international event. :eek::eek:

FYI, horses have done a lot worse in such venues...:rolleyes:

Let's see. From what I can tell: you are saying he was feeling overwhelmed by the electric atmosphere? You think that, at this point in his exposure (e.g., a number of international competitions under his girth), it's likely that he was overwhelmed by the stress of the *atmosphere* and bit his lip?

It is true that with horses anything is possible. As remarkable as they are in their self-preservation abilities, they do also find remarkable ways to hurt themselves (as do people). This case, given context photos, the 'atmosphere' doesn't seem like the most likely cause. True, though, anything is possible. It's just that this 'anything' is not likely.

Timex
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:36 AM
I've actually seen it happen with relative frequency. Different situation, I know, but at the racetrack I can see literally hundreds of horses each and every day. And it's not *abnormal* to see a horse that has bit itself while working. Granted, I see more horses working in a 6 week period than most people do in months, but.... Just playing a bit of devil's advocate, since jumping on a bandwagon without knowing the facts just ain't my style. ;)

SmartAlex
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:37 AM
I've seen horses bite their tongues twice, maybe three times. Yup... talk about looking awful with bloody froth everywhere. Hey, you got a horse that chomps and chews nervously, it's going to happen now and then.

crittertwitter
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:43 AM
Hmmm. I would like to think that it was just one of those innocent accidents that happens to everyone here and there. Puffy leg, must scratch, etc.

Unfortunately, the 'innocence' of it was foreshadowed by some not-so-innocent photos.

So, ok, maybe it was just a twist of karma, or fate, that he should accidentally bite himself. Not linked to rollkur whatsoever you think? OK.

ETA: Just watched his test. He looked absolutely amazing. Not very nervous. Not very responsive to the 'electricity', though. Especially as he walked out on a loose rein. He looked very attentive the whole time, very much in his element. It is very sad. I'm glad horses don't dream of gold.

Fantastic
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:59 AM
"Innocence" was taken when riders started abusing their horses like this! :cry:

Lisa Cook
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:05 PM
I've seen it happen, and no abuse or rollkur was involved, I promise. Horse was jumping a stadium round, jumped around fine, no harsh bits or harsh rider hands from what I could see and I watched the whole round from ingate to out gate. Horse came out of the ring with blood streaming out of his mouth from a bit tongue, much worse than what I saw on the live streaming today.

Ibex
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:09 PM
I've seen it.... horse was fussing and bit her tongue in the process. Very, VERY minor cut (couldn't see it the next morning), but there was an amazing amount of blood... you'd have thought she'd bitten the end right off :o .

dilligaff2
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:16 PM
My daughter's pony did it this summer. We brought him in from Turn-out and he had blood froth in the corners of his mouth.

No idea what he did but there wasn't any rider interference there.

princessfluffybritches
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
I wonder if they ever checked for some sharp edge on the bits.

Carol Ames
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:27 PM
With all the controversy about RK,:eek:,

wouldn't you expect he Dutch to be hyper vigilant for anything approaching inhumane:eek: treatment/ techniques? Where was the groom with the everpresent:lol: towel?

Bogey2
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:31 PM
MY old QH bit his toungue about an inch deep...we think he did it rough housing with another horse.

bort84
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:44 PM
I've seen it happen at least a few times - during rides, before rides, and after rides. I think it's possible he could have a busy mouth and accidentally bit the tip or side of his tongue, or it's possible he did it while he was getting ready or while she was mounted but not while they were working. If he was fussing with the bits while standing around, it could also happen. He could have gotten startled at something, moved abruptly and managed to bite his tongue that way. Many options.

Honestly, I'm a little skeptical it was caused by any harsh riding because she surely rides this way at home pretty often - so the horse's mouth is probably relatively toughened to it, and she probably knows how far she can push.

Anyway, I think it's possible it was just a tongue biting accident, but that doesn't mean I like the shots of her warmups.

Carol Ames
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:46 PM
A warning was made to officials in the briefing; A horse was later seen on course with blood from mouth/ nose; pulled up and eliminated; He had stopped at the third element of a combination, bumped his nose/ mouth against the rather large log; resulting in a bloody nose/ mouth :eek:and was eliminated;:yes: The TD/ vet, fresh from the Atlanta Olympics had said in the briefing
"We don't want any horse on course with blood streaming :eek:from he mouth/ nose; pull them up and eliminate them!"; Was such a statement made at WEG?

carolprudm
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:54 PM
Wasn't Carl Hester eliminated at a competition this summer for the same thing?

ETA Found it
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/376/300179.html

crittertwitter
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:56 PM
I've seen it happen at least a few times - during rides, before rides, and after rides. I think it's possible he could have a busy mouth and accidentally bit the tip or side of his tongue, or it's possible he did it while he was getting ready or while she was mounted but not while they were working. If he was fussing with the bits while standing around, it could also happen. He could have gotten startled at something, moved abruptly and managed to bite his tongue that way. Many options.

Honestly, I'm a little skeptical it was caused by any harsh riding because she surely rides this way at home pretty often - so the horse's mouth is probably relatively toughened to it, and she probably knows how far she can push.

Anyway, I think it's possible it was just a tongue biting accident, but that doesn't mean I like the shots of her warmups.

This is a pretty balanced perspective, imo. I do think that a lot of the anger at the blood in the mouth is really displaced discomfort from the irritation that she is using methods in warm up that are deemed inhumane. However, I can really see how rollkur could lead to a horse biting the underside of their tongue (which is what has now been published). Rollkur -> blue tongue? Rollkur -> numbness in tongue? I could see this possibility. It is also *possible*, as stated elsewhere, that this was completely unrelated to Rollkur. However, the fact remains that there is a lot of animosity due to its use, even absent the blood in the mouth. Given that most of us only have electronic observations of (1) a practice that is considered abuse and (2) injury to a horse, it's not difficult to understand why we are connecting the two or are up in arms about it.

Objectively, I also wonder how much of a role this controversial practice plays in an outstanding performance. What would their frame and performance look like in the absence of this method and what does that say about Dressage ideals at this point? Kinda reminding me of the show jumping style fences on xc debate... moving farther and farther away from what is natural... and what is the 'right' amount of submission?

Equus_girl
Sep. 28, 2010, 01:24 PM
I have never seen or heard of a horse biting his tounge, although I was present at the accident which should have produced the blood but it did not.

My trainer was riding on a polo field one day after it got watered :O She asked for a canter-halt transition, horse really sat on his haunches and slipped, going over backwards, falling on rider. He broke a new Sprenger CURB bit, and his mouth was badly bruised, BUT there was no blood.

ljoakley
Sep. 28, 2010, 01:36 PM
Has anyone read her latest article about Parzival? He is one explosive horse and if you believe her, during the their showing career she's had to quit in the middle of many rides when he had a total meltdown. she may have been trying every trick on the book to get him in the game.

Is this an excuse for the photos? NO. On the other hand, if he's really this hard to handle he may very well have cut his own tongue.

From personal experience I can say that my previous jumper had very thick lips and when she was stressed would suck in her lips and bite them. We had to be extremely careful with her bitting.

could someone explain to me where the TD was?

Calhoun
Sep. 28, 2010, 01:44 PM
NOT a common incident, yet the press kind of presents it that way! :rolleyes: Kind elastic giving contact = quiet mouth = NO TONGUE BITING. Duh!!

Where is the AMERICAN press? Hello, Dressagedaily? Where are you? Are you quiet because we are the host country, or what's the problem??? Why is it that we have to go to foreign sites - Horseandhound - to read the story? Where is Eurodressage and Horse2rider?

Anyone else ever had their horse bite their tongue? :rolleyes: Or, anyone ever witnessed another horse bite it's tongue while ridden? I don't think it's a common occurrence! :mad:

This really is apauling, the "tongue biting" incident with Adelinde Cornelissen. If the rider had a proper connection = kind, giving, elastic hands, and had the horse over his back into a receiving hand, and not curled up, none of this would have happened.

I hope the Dutch are ashamed and embarrassed! Sadly, they probably are not, as this style of riding seems to be their national style!

You are shooting from the hip . . . were you there? Did you see it happen? Frankly , your post sounds like Fox News after Obama press conference. Yes, horses can bite their lips. Poor Adelinde and her horse, to train for such an event and be disqualified over a simple act.

MLK1
Sep. 28, 2010, 01:49 PM
LJoakley,

On the other hand, maybe one has to think this horse maybe is so hard to ride/explosive and has complete meltdowns from having his head stuck to his chest and his mouth cranked on when ridden most of the time. Good Grief I know I would, if I were that poor horse! Who knows what else goes on when no one is around watching.

crittertwitter
Sep. 28, 2010, 01:53 PM
You are shooting from the hip . . . were you there? Did you see it happen? Frankly , your post sounds like Fox News after Obama press conference. Yes, horses can bite their lips. Poor Adelinde and her horse, to train for such an event and be disqualified over a simple act.

True, no one knows how the lip bite happened. Juxtaposed with the pictures from the warmup the day before, it just doesn't look 'innocent.' That's really all I can say.

Back to work before some online small news report publishes "Sources Say the Fired Employee was Obsessed with WEG"

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 28, 2010, 01:57 PM
LJoakley,

On the other hand, maybe one has to think this horse maybe is so hard to ride/explosive and has complete meltdowns from having his head stuck to his chest and his mouth cranked on when ridden most of the time. Good Grief I know I would, if I were that poor horse! Who knows what else goes on when no one is around watching. What are the Dutch thinking. :no:


BURN THEM, I SAY!

netg
Sep. 28, 2010, 02:01 PM
I know I have loved the rides I have seen for these two in the past. They looked lovely and relaxed. I also know I dislike those photos of the warmup.

My horse has bitten his tongue several times when turned out. He gets so excited it seems his tongue gets in the way of his teeth. I could EASILY see him doing the same thing in a show ring with a lot of energy once or twice in our showing career. I have a friend whose horse had a huge chunk out of his tongue one day when she went to get him from turnout. It does happen sometimes.

Could this be related to rollkur? Possibly. It could be a coincidence as well. I think it more likely it's related to a tight noseband and he managed to ease his mouth open in a moment of resistance, then his tongue was in the way when the noseband pressure cranked his mouth shut again.

But I think it's just as likely it was one of those things, where the horse just happened to get his tongue. I know I have done it plenty of times myself, why would a horse be expected to never do the same?

esdressage
Sep. 28, 2010, 02:06 PM
I find it discouraging that our sport is in a place right now where something like this is automatically assumed to be the result of abuse.

As I do not know the cause of the blood, I'll just say that it's unfortunate for the pair, and sadly adds fuel to a fire that's unfortunate for our sport.

Bogey2
Sep. 28, 2010, 02:23 PM
Frankly , your post sounds like Fox News after Obama press conference.

or worse...MSNBC after a Bush press conference...and before a Bush press conference:lol:

Fantastic
Sep. 28, 2010, 02:39 PM
OMG! You guys are funny! :lol: You're right; I do! :lol: (I must stop that!)


Quote:
Frankly , your post sounds like Fox News after Obama press conference.

or worse...MSNBC after a Bush press conference...and before a Bush press conference





You are shooting from the hip . . . were you there? Did you see it happen? Frankly , your post sounds like Fox News after Obama press conference. Yes, horses can bite their lips. Poor Adelinde and her horse, to train for such an event and be disqualified over a simple act.

My location is irrelevant to my presumtuous attitude, which is simply my opinion. We are all entitled to our own opinions, are we not? Yours, mine, and the Dutch Team - who's opinion's are to ride in hyperflexion.

esdressage
Sep. 28, 2010, 02:45 PM
…and the Dutch - who's opinion's are to ride in hyperflexion.

OK, this whole stringing up of the Dutch thing is getting annoying. I'm Dutch and don't ride in hyperflexion. My instructor is a Dutch GP level rider and she doesn't ride in hyperflexion.

Making blanket statements is never a good way to strengthen one's argument.

Fantastic
Sep. 28, 2010, 02:49 PM
Quote from Calhoun; my words added in bold:



Poor Adelinde and her horse, to train ( in hyper flexion )for such an event and be disqualified over a simple act ( of tongue biting ).


Not that the training style absolutely has a relationship to the injury, but it certainly could! Based on the horses reaction/posture/grimace to being forced into that position by a riders hands, this is possible.

Fantastic
Sep. 28, 2010, 03:00 PM
Sorry esdressage. I meant "Dutch" collectively; The Dutch Team, not Dutch as the entire population. Thanks for pointing this out to me!

I love everything Dutch, but do not love, nor do I subscribe to, nor do I support their chosen method of riding and training dressage horses. I greatly respect and love: the country, their culture, the history, the people, their horses. I own Dutch horses, have friends in Holland, have Dutch friends in America, etc.

I simply don't love the style of riding and what The Team has chosen to subject their horses to. And, I am not alone.

Calhoun
Sep. 28, 2010, 03:25 PM
OMG! You guys are funny! :lol: You're right; I do! :lol: (I must stop that!)

Laughing is very good, especially when discussing hyper flexion on COTH. :) :)

alicen
Sep. 28, 2010, 03:53 PM
I think it more likely it's related to a tight noseband and he managed to ease his mouth open in a moment of resistance, then his tongue was in the way when the noseband pressure cranked his mouth shut again.

Just what I was wondering about.

Blue Domino
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:11 PM
You are shooting from the hip . . . were you there? Did you see it happen? Frankly , your post sounds like Fox News after Obama press conference. Yes, horses can bite their lips. Poor Adelinde and her horse, to train for such an event and be disqualified over a simple act.

Rabid reporting from NBC after a Palin press conference would be more descriptive.

NBC would be trying to tell us there's nothing to a little blood running out of a horses mouth, that we've got our panties in a knot about nothing.

SmartAlex
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:15 PM
Well sure it could be related to Rolkur. If a horse has his mouth cranked on for a period of time, and loses feeling in his tongue it is all that much more likely for him to bite it accidentally.

Blue Domino
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:18 PM
Well sure it could be related to Rolkur. If a horse has his mouth cranked on for a period of time, and loses feeling in his tongue it is all that much more likely for him to bite it accidentally.

My thought exactly, these horses have been rollkured numb and have no idea when they bite their own tongues.

Blue Domino
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:24 PM
The way these Dutch horses and riders are getting accolades for their automaton rollkur induced performances.

Reminiscent of pre war German's ecstatic that the trains were running on time.

Hampton Bay
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:44 PM
I'e owned my hot-head of a mare for 6.5 years. She has always had a fussy mouth unless there is a loop in the reins, and she's yet to bite her tongue. I don't use a flash or tight noseband, so there is certainly room for her to get her tongue between her teeth.

Sonesta
Sep. 28, 2010, 05:19 PM
I am not a fan of Rollkur, but I do believe that if this incident had happened to a rider from any other team but the Dutch, this board would have been expressing sympathy for the horse and rider being eliminated (however correctly).

I've seen (and been riding) horses that have managed to injure themselves and bleed a bit from the mouth. No Rollkur involved. And a tiny amount of blood can look copious when mixed with the froth on their lips.

I think the automatic assumption being made by so many that this incident is somehow the result of her riding style is scarily speculative and damaging.

Gry2Yng
Sep. 28, 2010, 05:19 PM
The way these Dutch horses and riders are getting accolades for their automaton rollkur induced performances.

Reminiscent of pre war German's ecstatic that the trains were running on time.

The trains STILL run on time.

asterix
Sep. 28, 2010, 05:30 PM
For someone who asked, apparently it was the judge at C, President of the Ground Jury, who rang her out.

I have a friend whose horse bit a piece of his tongue OFF -- talk about blood -- this was amazing. He was snarking at his stallmate for some food and must have gotten snarked back, tried to get his head back between the bars, etc...

But this is a horse who nearly killed himself by running full on into a grazing pasturemate and knocking them both over, so I wouldn't really call that normal...

Sonesta
Sep. 28, 2010, 05:35 PM
I have a friend whose horse bit a piece of his tongue OFF -- talk about blood -- this was amazing. He was snarking at his stallmate for some food and must have gotten snarked back, tried to get his head back between the bars, etc...

But this is a horse who nearly killed himself by running full on into a grazing pasturemate and knocking them both over, so I wouldn't really call that normal...

ROFLMAO! I knew a horse that did that! I would stick his nose through the bars of the horse's stall next to him and then hang his tongue out. The horse in the next stall bit off about 1/3 of it. The amount of blood was horrific. Looked like a slaughterhouse. Barn owner couldn't figure out what happened for a while, as both horses were standing around acting normal (bleeding had stopped). This is a show horse that still competes - with a much shorter tongue than normal.

Lisa Cook
Sep. 28, 2010, 05:46 PM
I am not a fan of Rollkur, but I do believe that if this incident had happened to a rider from any other team but the Dutch, this board would have been expressing sympathy for the horse and rider being eliminated (however correctly).

I've seen (and been riding) horses that have managed to injure themselves and bleed a bit from the mouth. No Rollkur involved. And a tiny amount of blood can look copious when mixed with the froth on their lips.

I think the automatic assumption being made by so many that this incident is somehow the result of her riding style is scarily speculative and damaging.

Amen and thank you.

Gry2Yng
Sep. 28, 2010, 06:59 PM
Amen and thank you.

Agree. Warm up photos are bothersome, but I have a horse who can be a Bast*** and at any given moment you might take a picture of us like that. Maybe because he has just finished spinning and bucking like a bronc. Don't do rollkur. Could also see same horse biting his tongue or lip as part of his antics. No rollkur involved. Can go in the ring and lay down a winning test. Can also get us excused.

ETA: Of course not at that level, but that is my fault not his.

Donella
Sep. 28, 2010, 07:53 PM
I find it discouraging that our sport is in a place right now where something like this is automatically assumed to be the result of abuse

Me too. It is very depressing. I don't know of any other sport where those practicing at the lower ammy levels have such a hate on for those at the top. What is it with dressage enthusiasts? If you hate competative dressage and the people who are in it, why do you practice it??

RK is not ruining the sport. The people obsessed with how riders at the top are riding and the whole abuse thing is what is ruining the sport. I am so sick and tired of hearing about it. I wish all this energy were focused on REAL abuse. Animals that you eat every single day led a horrendous life filled with REAL abuse before they died for you. And yet ALL we hear about here is RK. ARRRGGGGG!:mad:

mbm
Sep. 28, 2010, 07:56 PM
maybe you read about this over and over and OVER because people CARE...... they care that their sport of choice is being turned into a money making circus....

and if it makes you feel better, i am a vegetarian, i am very political in my spending etc.

still, i abhor rollkur and think dressage needs to do better.

Fixerupper
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:08 PM
I find it discouraging that our sport is in a place right now where something like this is automatically assumed to be the result of abuse

Me too. It is very depressing. I don't know of any other sport where those practicing at the lower ammy levels have such a hate on for those at the top. What is it with dressage enthusiasts? If you hate competative dressage and the people who are in it, why do you practice it??

RK is not ruining the sport. The people obsessed with how riders at the top are riding and the whole abuse thing is what is ruining the sport. I am so sick and tired of hearing about it. I wish all this energy were focused on REAL abuse. Animals that you eat every single day led a horrendous life filled with REAL abuse before they died for you. And yet ALL we hear about here is RK. ARRRGGGGG!:mad:

well well well...just goes to show ya how wrong 'first impressions' can be...

Donella I had you all wrong...on account of the weird rearing horse/$12 chicken thing :winkgrin:

lighten up on the free range everything just a bit and we can (maybe) be BFFs

:lol:

Donella
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:11 PM
Well, MBM, most people who cry abuse are not vegetarians, statistically speaking. What I am saying is that there are much worse "abuses" out there in regards to animals.

I honestly just think people don't get out enough. Go to any major show where there are huge , powerful, athletic, hot and reactive horses in an electric atmosphere and see if everything always looks textbook. It doesn't, trust me. The media is loving this stuff and everyone is buying into it. I consider myself a pretty strong proponent of animal welfare and I am just plain tired of the misdirected negative energy.

Daloop
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:14 PM
Take a look at training pix on www.eventingnation.com.

Donella
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:16 PM
And I am fairly certain that if any of you were put on any of those horses in the same atmosphere and I had a camera, I could take some pretty awful shots. I am certain of it.

Ghazzu
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:28 PM
I don't care at all for the hyperflexion/rollkur "training" style. I'm not sure that it inevitably results in physical damage, but it runs counter to my idea of what dressage *should* be.

I don't much like what I see in the Grand Prix arena these days.
It's beginning to look to much like an Arab park horse class with lots of extravagant front leg flapping and the hindquarters trailing out behind.

Having said that, I don't at all think that the horse in question bit his tongue because he was "numb" from the warmup.

I think it falls under the "crap happens" heading.

But, crap does indeed happen.
Any horse with a bloody mouth should be eliminated.

This one was.

End of story.

mbm
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:40 PM
And I am fairly certain that if any of you were put on any of those horses in the same atmosphere and I had a camera, I could take some pretty awful shots. I am certain of it.

pssst..... if this had been a one off no one would be talking about it..... but since a certain team is notorious for ugly riding.... welll........

and, while i am sure we all get sick of hearing it - there are riders that dont need to reef on the mouths of their horses to make them obey - they are even at the top of the sport!
=

mbm
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:43 PM
btw: it would be such a simple fix!

the FEI would need to say " we no longer will tolerate ugly and forceful riding - period. you will be ejected from any and all show ground and disqualified if you ride in a n ugly and forceful way - including reefing and surfing on a horses mouth! "

if they really do want to make this a money machine they will have to make it animal friendly!

ToN Farm
Sep. 28, 2010, 09:34 PM
It is very depressing. I don't know of any other sport where those practicing at the lower ammy levels have such a hate on for those at the top. What is it with dressage enthusiasts? If you hate competative dressage and the people who are in it, why do you practice it?? Competitive AA's that show do not have a 'hate on' for those at the top. Generally, these riders do not make up the majority of internet chat boards.

To comment on your last sentence quoted above, I have asked that question numerous times on various boards. If you so hate international competitive dressage and the way those winning in it train, why are you usually the first group to search out the videos, pictures, and results. Why do you even want to watch stuff you don't like. You already know the riders, and what you are going to see. Is it just another opportunity to beat an old subject to death? I don't get it.

Even with Reining...I don't think there would even be a thread on reining of AVG wasn't riding in it. I hate reining, and I don't bother to look at videos of it or photos. Same with some other equestrian sports. The Anky haters though, are quick to find fault with her reining technique, blaming it too on RK.

Donella, like you, I have also wondered and asked why so much attention is given to RK when there are so many other more abusive situations going on with animals. People don't want to hear that. RK is their obsession and I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

mbm
Sep. 28, 2010, 09:40 PM
erm..... people expect dressage to be better and to be humane. when they see it iinst they get disappointed and distressed.

then there are those that can ride and still hate what they see.

as for watching the vids etc.... i cant stomach them. so i rarely watch. but when it is posted all over hell and back it is kinda hard to not look...

i dont think the average ammie is going to give up dressage to the lions just yet - we were here plugging away far before the FEI decided to make a circus out of dressage....;) ... and please do not ASSume that just because we are vocal about RK that we are also not vocal about other things that matter to us.

btw: ToN weren't you going to go agitate the hunters because of drug use? how did that go for you?

HorseBabble
Sep. 28, 2010, 09:46 PM
Donella, like you, I have also wondered and asked why so much attention is given to RK when there are so many other more abusive situations going on with animals. People don't want to hear that. RK is their obsession and I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

Are there other abusive practices out there? Of course! Does that excuse this one? No. To follow this logic you must believe that there is some limit to the amount of abuse one can oppose.

ToN Farm
Sep. 28, 2010, 09:57 PM
mbm, I don't know what you mean about the hunters and drug use. You can refresh my memory via pm/email. I really don't remember anything related to that, but my memory is short. I am opposed to pain masking drugs in any discipline, and I do believe hunter/jumper people do it more than dressage people, or else they are just unlucky and get caught more.

Just because you, MBM, do not seek out competitive dressage photos and videos, others do. There is rarely a day goes by that someone on these boards doesn't have something negative to say about some BNR or their horse.

The other thing is that even if RK is the abuse of the decade, one would think that people would get sick and tired of the same old same old conversations. They could just put up a 'sticky'.

mickeydoodle
Sep. 28, 2010, 09:59 PM
you all are just nuts- that horse came in the ring with the most amazing, UPHILL< INFRONT OF THE VERTICAL, rhythmic, forward, through, engaged, etc etc outline and gaits you could imagine, she would have given Gal a run for the money. He bit his tongue or lip, bloody foam, etc.

He was scoring over 80% when the judge at C rang the bell.

candico
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:02 PM
Totally agree with Donella. And honestly, if we disinvited every rider that has ever used RK in training a horse, and every horse that has had RK as part of it's training prior to their current ride... We would only need a row or two of seating for friend's and family. The stands are embarrassingly empty as it is... and for those who think Klimke never "lost his cool" on a horse, there are super legitimately ugly photos out there of him as well.

Donella
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:10 PM
erm..... people expect dressage to be better and to be humane. when they see it iinst they get disappointed and distressed

Yes, THATS the problem. People have some sort of distorted concept of dressage (especially "classical" dressage). When I started out in the sport, I was exactly the same way. But if you read the old books you realize that there are alot of "ugly" training methods (what many of you would think of as ugly anyways) that have been endorsed. Lots of the "masters" have advocated things that would never be legal today but for some reason people just like to see the rosy parts. So yes, if you have this floofy idea of what dressage is supposed to be..ie where there are NEVER any ugly moments then yes, you will be dissapointed. I do think this is a bit of the problem. Dressage is a sport. The riders and horses are athletes and athletic endevours are sometimes not pretty. Everyone who really RIDES knows this.


Are there other abusive practices out there? Of course! Does that excuse this one? No. To follow this logic you must believe that there is some limit to the amount of abuse one can oppose

I am not excusing any real form of animal abuse. But even if this were abuse (which I don't think it is) the outrage is totally disproportionate to the "crime".

Sabine
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:48 PM
NOT a common incident, yet the press kind of presents it that way! :rolleyes: Kind elastic giving contact = quiet mouth = NO TONGUE BITING. Duh!!

Where is the AMERICAN press? Hello, Dressagedaily? Where are you? Are you quiet because we are the host country, or what's the problem??? Why is it that we have to go to foreign sites - Horseandhound - to read the story? Where is Eurodressage and Horse2rider?

Anyone else ever had their horse bite their tongue? :rolleyes: Or, anyone ever witnessed another horse bite it's tongue while ridden? I don't think it's a common occurrence! :mad:

This really is apauling, the "tongue biting" incident with Adelinde Cornelissen. If the rider had a proper connection = kind, giving, elastic hands, and had the horse over his back into a receiving hand, and not curled up, none of this would have happened.

I hope the Dutch are ashamed and embarrassed! Sadly, they probably are not, as this style of riding seems to be their national style!

Please go and hide behind a rock!! NOWW!! you show very poor sportsmanship on top of very little experience...don't comment on stuff you don't know or have been around or understand.

grayarabs
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:48 PM
Remembering when Robert Dover's horse got his tongue over the bit. Didn't he say afterwards that he could not touch the mouth and had to ride off his seat?

Sabine
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:52 PM
Remembering when Robert Dover's horse got his tongue over the bit. Didn't he say afterwards that he could not touch the mouth and had to ride off his seat?

apples and oranges my dear.
Getting a small cut on the tongue can happen for a variety of reasons- since the horse has 2 bits in the mouth of which one has a joint. It is not common but also not unheard of. They do a bit check- it could have been the snaffle ring pinching the inside lip against the bradoon...PLEASE... I thought this crowd was at least a bit informed....???

Tongue over bit is a totally different issue and actually more indicative of a horse that is backing off the bit and trying to avoid the pressure of the bit on the tongue...thus more of a continuing training issue than what happened today to Adelinde.

ZiggyStardust
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:34 AM
Participants in a sport want to be inspired by the people at the top of the sport. They want to emulate those people. Kids who like the sport want to emulate those people. When those who aspire or otherwise look up to the top are faced with glaring evidence that causes them to question the validity of the system, they grow sad and disillusioned. Times ten when the submissive partner seems to get the short end of the deal.

And pop will eat itself, eventually.

Fixerupper
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:42 AM
you all have it wrong

I heard she stabbed the horse in the mouth with her spur and then punched out Stephen Clarke when he tried to eliminate her....
pass it on....:lol:

Sabine
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:56 AM
you all have it wrong

I heard she stabbed the horse in the mouth with her spur and then punched out Stephen Clarke when he tried to eliminate her....
pass it on....:lol:

Fixie- you rock!!!

Fixerupper
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:00 AM
:cool:

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:03 AM
you all are just nuts- that horse came in the ring with the most amazing, UPHILL< INFRONT OF THE VERTICAL, rhythmic, forward, through, engaged, etc etc outline and gaits you could imagine, she would have given Gal a run for the money. He bit his tongue or lip, bloody foam, etc.

He was scoring over 80% when the judge at C rang the bell.


look how lovely it was!

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=319824&id=695629987&fbid=10150097724394988&ref=mf

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:07 AM
erm..... people expect dressage to be better and to be humane. when they see it iinst they get disappointed and distressed

Yes, THATS the problem. People have some sort of distorted concept of dressage (especially "classical" dressage). When I started out in the sport, I was exactly the same way. But if you read the old books you realize that there are alot of "ugly" training methods (what many of you would think of as ugly anyways) that have been endorsed. Lots of the "masters" have advocated things that would never be legal today but for some reason people just like to see the rosy parts. So yes, if you have this floofy idea of what dressage is supposed to be..ie where there are NEVER any ugly moments then yes, you will be dissapointed. I do think this is a bit of the problem. Dressage is a sport. The riders and horses are athletes and athletic endevours are sometimes not pretty. Everyone who really RIDES knows this.


Are there other abusive practices out there? Of course! Does that excuse this one? No. To follow this logic you must believe that there is some limit to the amount of abuse one can oppose

I am not excusing any real form of animal abuse. But even if this were abuse (which I don't think it is) the outrage is totally disproportionate to the "crime".

i do NOT endorse any forms of riding that is non horse freindly.

Please show me where Alois Podhasjky or Klimke supported or advocated harsh riding? I have book shelves lined with books that are correct classical/traditional dressage that makes the horse better and happier and treats it with respect (which btw does not mean mamby pamby handling)

none of this treat it like a machine to wring every last drop of talent out of it.

what i find very revealing is how different AC rides once she started riding with Sjef. her scores went thru the roof but the riding is so mechanical now!

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:09 AM
Please go and hide behind a rock!! NOWW!! you show very poor sportsmanship on top of very little experience...don't comment on stuff you don't know or have been around or understand.


ahhh Sabine so nice to see you have gotten nicer as you age! ;)

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:12 AM
apples and oranges my dear.
Getting a small cut on the tongue can happen for a variety of reasons- since the horse has 2 bits in the mouth of which one has a joint. It is not common but also not unheard of. They do a bit check- it could have been the snaffle ring pinching the inside lip against the bradoon...PLEASE... I thought this crowd was at least a bit informed....???

Tongue over bit is a totally different issue and actually more indicative of a horse that is backing off the bit and trying to avoid the pressure of the bit on the tongue...thus more of a continuing training issue than what happened today to Adelinde.

seriously - how could ACs horse be "backed off the bit" she is pulling on the reins with all her might????

and for the record i am not saying he didnt /couldnt bit his lip/tongue.

but i do believe AC will not get a fair trial in the court of public opinion exactly because of how she choses to ride.

MLK1
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:38 AM
I agree her test was lovely up to that point but if a horse has to be ridden that way even SOME of the time in order to get the results seen in the video, one has to ask oneself "Is it worth it?"

Blue Domino
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:58 AM
The trains STILL run on time.

Seems the Dutch learned how to keep their trains on time too.

They must try much harder than the Germans though.

BaroquePony
Sep. 29, 2010, 07:00 AM
Posted by Sabine:

They do a bit check- it could have been the snaffle ring pinching the inside lip against the bradoon...PLEASE... I thought this crowd was at least a bit informed....???

Well, the *snaffle* is not a bradoon, technically, especially when you are discussing this particular issue (upper level dressage, bits and bridle). I do not know how the *snaffle* ring can pinch the inside lip against the bradoon. Totally nonsensical statement.

Now, if you are talking about the *bit* and the *bradoon* at least you are talking about the right bits.

mickeydoodle
Sep. 29, 2010, 07:41 AM
besides, the riders are warming up where we all can see them- no abuse going on- Edward Gal's warm up looks like a little trot/canter in the park until the horse enters the stadium, it is absolutely phenomenal!!!!!!! the horse is amazing

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:34 AM
I think people are missing the point more than slightly.

Do I have sour grapes about where the top level riders are at? Heck no, someday I'd like to be in that ring. Do I think I can outride them at this point? Again, heck no! I haven't ridden in a year, I'm middle aged, not at a weight that I prefer, and I'm just starting my dressage career after a lengthy career in the H/J and eventing worlds. And yes, I'll freely admit that I am that middle aged woman - deal with it. *laughing*

Who am I? Absolutely nobody but a student. Someone that is learning from the horse, learning from every book I can get my hands on, learning from every instructor I can get a lesson from. Watching every ride available that I can find on any medium. Going to shows and watching. To learn, absolutely to learn.

When I rode H/J as a teen, I once had a pelham on my gelding, who I trailrode a lot, was a rearer and a generally difficult horse. It was considered a cardinal sin to ride BTV by my trainer. Of course, I thought it was seriously cool because I could "make" the horse do all sorts of things, including a really pathetic version of piaffe, in the pelham. I was a kid, please don't throw things. She got really mad at me and made me change it back to the snaffle. It was a cardinal cardinal sin.

Same thing with my eventing trainers in the UK. Any time I would get a little hand-y (which was hard for me to do as I had zero upper body strength, but I *am* human and we like to do things with our hands), again I would hear...light in the mouth, light in the mouth, do not get behind the vertical.

I do not wish to throw stones at any rider/trainer/training practice. I can accept that perhaps AC's horse biting it's tongue was just a bizarro-land accident - sh*t happens.

That all being said, I wish to LEARN. And so I ask the question - for a very long time it has been considered (in the books that I have read, in my training up until now) a really terrible thing to make the horse go in this way.

What has changed???

Now, all of a sudden, I'm supposed to accept that because top dressage riders in several nations do this practice, that I must just not know enough and be envious of their success? Pshaw!

Can I not ask the question....why? What is it about this that suddenly makes it okay? What makes riding with your shoulders well behind your hips and heels okay? I've heard all sorts of biomechanical and mental reasons why this is NOT considered okay, but I've never heard a decent argument for it other than "It works for them, you don't know enough so shut up".

Please, I'd love to hear something rational?

ridgeback
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:43 AM
There are a whole lot of ignorance on this board..She was NOT pulling on the horse with all her might...My God do you really believe her horse would go so WELL if she was hauling on his face. I appreciate if you like the way Laura rides better but for God sake stop the stupidity. :mad:

dwblover
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:02 AM
You can't tell from a photo, or even from the ground at a competition how much force she was using to pull Parzival's face around. In fact none of us knows how much force she used, including you ridgeback. But I do know for a fact that she used enough force to cause the horse to have his mouth GAPING open. That in my non-ignorant opinion is certainly too much, no matter how much might was involved!

ToN Farm
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:11 AM
look how lovely it was!

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=319824&id=695629987&fbid=10150097724394988&ref=mf I don't find fault with these photos. It shows a rider using a very strong core to keep the horse up and into the bridle. If some people think this is pulling backwards, they are clueless.

Thomas_1
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:12 AM
I think people are missing the point more than slightly.

Do I have sour grapes about where the top level riders are at? Heck no, someday I'd like to be in that ring. Do I think I can outride them at this point? Again, heck no! I haven't ridden in a year, I'm middle aged, not at a weight that I prefer, and I'm just starting my dressage career after a lengthy career in the H/J and eventing worlds. And yes, I'll freely admit that I am that middle aged woman - deal with it. *laughing*

Who am I? Absolutely nobody but a student. Someone that is learning from the horse, learning from every book I can get my hands on, learning from every instructor I can get a lesson from. Watching every ride available that I can find on any medium. Going to shows and watching. To learn, absolutely to learn.

When I rode H/J as a teen, I once had a pelham on my gelding, who I trailrode a lot, was a rearer and a generally difficult horse. It was considered a cardinal sin to ride BTV by my trainer. Of course, I thought it was seriously cool because I could "make" the horse do all sorts of things, including a really pathetic version of piaffe, in the pelham. I was a kid, please don't throw things. She got really mad at me and made me change it back to the snaffle. It was a cardinal cardinal sin.

Same thing with my eventing trainers in the UK. Any time I would get a little hand-y (which was hard for me to do as I had zero upper body strength, but I *am* human and we like to do things with our hands), again I would hear...light in the mouth, light in the mouth, do not get behind the vertical.

I do not wish to throw stones at any rider/trainer/training practice. I can accept that perhaps AC's horse biting it's tongue was just a bizarro-land accident - sh*t happens.

That all being said, I wish to LEARN. And so I ask the question - for a very long time it has been considered (in the books that I have read, in my training up until now) a really terrible thing to make the horse go in this way.

What has changed???

Now, all of a sudden, I'm supposed to accept that because top dressage riders in several nations do this practice, that I must just not know enough and be envious of their success? Pshaw!

Can I not ask the question....why? What is it about this that suddenly makes it okay? What makes riding with your shoulders well behind your hips and heels okay? I've heard all sorts of biomechanical and mental reasons why this is NOT considered okay, but I've never heard a decent argument for it other than "It works for them, you don't know enough so shut up".

Please, I'd love to hear something rational?

Excellent posting.

Bats79
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:54 AM
I don't find fault with these photos. It shows a rider using a very strong core to keep the horse up and into the bridle. If some people think this is pulling backwards, they are clueless.

You are joking right?

The horse was so hard in the hand and driven into unbalance that his half passes were almost leg yields. There was no self carriage or lightness in any of it.

Liz
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:14 AM
Sure

"Leg Yields" that probably scored an 8 or above by international judges but heck, what do they know.

Coreene
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:34 AM
Sure

"Leg Yields" that probably scored an 8 or above by international judges but heck, what do they know.

And the stewards before were obviously in on the conspiracy as well.

carolprudm
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:01 AM
I don't find fault with these photos. It shows a rider using a very strong core to keep the horse up and into the bridle. If some people think this is pulling backwards, they are clueless.
How about this one?
http://st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=8357&next=12

naters
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:13 AM
Did someone already post this link? If so, sorry for the duplicate post...

http://st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=8357&next=4


ETA: Yep sorry, actually the poster above me posted it... LOL, that is what I get for posting when I had only read through page three...

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:17 AM
How about this one?
http://st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=8357&next=12


Interesting photocropping; but even if it were an untouched, unbiased photo, you cannot really judge what is going on unless you are sitting on the horse yourself.

There but for the grace of god go any of us. Sure glad there's no papparazzi on the rail of my arena!

ToN Farm
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:32 AM
How about this one?
http://st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=8357&next=12
Sure it's an ugly photo. Does it bother me? Nope, because as a rider myself, I can understand how this kind of thing happens. If people are so naive to think that these great riders are trying to pull their horses into submission, then so be it. I see it as horses trying to blow through the contact. Unless you have dealt with that kind of power, you wouldn't understand. I have dealt with only a fraction of it, and I know how strong a horse can be.

I also know for a fact that a horse can open his mouth without excessive pressure being applied to the bit. That's why people use cranks and flashes. Most horses would prefer to allow the energy to leak out the mouth rather than engage behind. Who can blame them; it's hard work.

With respect to tongues out (i.e. Kittel), I have a friend whose horse has a tongue problem that has nothing to do with contact or the riding. Somehow it became a habit. Again, that's why people try to prevent such things using nosebands and flashes. I feel really bad for Patrik Kittel because I love his horse and his riding. Sadly, I think the situation of his tongue is never going to be fixed, and I do not like that modified drop noseband he uses to try to fix his problem.
Various tack and training devices are good for teaching and preventing problems, but not for fixing them. jmho.

ToN Farm
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:34 AM
Sure glad there's no papparazzi on the rail of my arena!
Well you just never know where Caroline may be lurking with her camera.

Miss J
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:38 AM
I have a friend whose horse bit a piece of his tongue OFF -- talk about blood -- this was amazing. He was snarking at his stallmate for some food and must have gotten snarked back, tried to get his head back between the bars, etc...

But this is a horse who nearly killed himself by running full on into a grazing pasturemate and knocking them both over, so I wouldn't really call that normal...



yes I know a TB mare who bit a HUGE chunk of her tongue off as well! Nobody knew how...she was a little bit of an "uptight" creature....

Now my old TB was constantly playing with his tongue, mouth whatever....he probably never bit it, as his mouth was always wide open when I rode him.....even in a halter.....:mad::confused:

doccer
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:40 AM
The horse bit his tongue... whether its an 'abusive' occurence or just plain sh*t luck. it happened, blood isnt allowed in the rules... eliminated, done.

As to the pics of "over-zealous" warmup... riders should KNOW better. Ok, ANYBODY should know better who is in the top of their game (celebrities so to speak)... every inch of your day, warm-up stable management will be scrutinized... your at the top so expect it.

If you're at the top and crass enough to blatantly train in a method that is under scrutiny... that is your own fault for showing the world, so take your lumps with it with nobody to blame but yourself :yes:

Miss J
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:43 AM
wow Onegraypony!!! that was a great post!!! I would love to hear an answer (or answers) from your last paragraph!

carolprudm
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:08 PM
wow Onegraypony!!! that was a great post!!! I would love to hear an answer (or answers) from your last paragraph!
It's the same answer you would get from the Parellies "You just aren't advanced enough to understand"

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:35 PM
Well you just never know where Caroline may be lurking with her camera.

now now.... those pics were taken at WEG - a public event that she paid to be at that allows cameras.

we ALL know that bad pics can happen to us all. that is a fact of life. but when a rider rides a certain way all the time it makes it easier to capture said pics, dont you think?

we will never agree - but the tide of public opinion is changing and the FEI will listen if they want to continue to make money.

and believe it or not - I think that EG may be the way forward since he has not been seen RKing his horse ..... and i think we all should give him props for that.

AC used to not train with SJ and i liked her riding so much better then.... less high scores but a lot more harmony etc.

now it just looks forced and mechanical.

ToN Farm
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:40 PM
wow Onegraypony!!! that was a great post!!! I would love to hear an answer (or answers) from your last paragraph! Ok, I'll take a stab at the answer. The question was:

"Can I not ask the question....why? What is it about this that suddenly makes it okay? What makes riding with your shoulders well behind your hips and heels okay? I've heard all sorts of biomechanical and mental reasons why this is NOT considered okay, but I've never heard a decent argument for it other than "It works for them, you don't know enough so shut up".

Please, I'd love to hear something rational?"
I guess my answer would be close to the 'it works for them'. Let's use an example. In hunter/jumper land, there is a position over fences that most everyone in that discipline would agree is correct. Yet, when we see photos of the very best hunter/jumper riders, we more often than not see some pretty acrobatic positions in the riders. That is because these riders know how to manipulate their bodies to get the horse to jump in the most perfect form. They are not in an equitation class where their position is being judged.

This is the same for dressage. These riders do what they need to do in order to get the horse to perform well. If that means leaning back, hiking up your lower leg, lifting or separating a hand, or <cringe>, even being a little backward with the hand, that is what they do.

Each rider has their own style and it's usually some modification of the textbook perfect. It depends on your conformation and that of the horse.

I think that too many of the critiques of competitive dressage not only place too much emphasis on where the poll/nose is, but also too much on the rider and what they are doing.

And yes, CarolPdm, I think some people are not advanced enough to really understand what is happening at the higher levels.

suzy
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:48 PM
Onegraypony, you can ask the question, but it has been dealt with SOOOO many times before on this board, why not save everyone a lot of aggravation and search posts for “BTV” or “Rollkur” or “Anky-haters anonymous” and you can read the opposing views to your heart’s content. ;)

Regarding the rules pertaining to blood in the mouth, everyone competing has to abide by them. I am sorry for Adelinde because it’s entirely possible that the horse did bite his own tongue. Whoever took those pictures of Adelinde is either not a terribly experienced horse photographer or was deliberately looking for bad moments. He/she chose such odd moments in the stride to push the shutter. I am not a great horse photographer, but I would never put up photos, capturing awkward moments as they say more about my (lack of) skill as a photographer than the rider’s skill as a rider. :lol:

I agree with ToN who made the point that sometimes horses “blow through the contact” and you must address it. It’s also more apt to happen in a highly charged atmosphere like WEG. You can be sure that these riders spend hours training their horses to be soft, supple, and obedient but when all kinds of craziness is going on around you, you can be sure that some of the horses are not going to handle it as well as others.

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:49 PM
i read on another board a comment that i think really explains it: when dressage tests were written they were to test the training....

nowadays the riders have learned how to train to beat the tests...... kinda like a kid learning curriculum and then being tested on it, or a kid being taught how to take a test and get a high score.

i think this analogy really sums it up perfectly and explain why many of us and just left speechless....

Molly Sorge
Sep. 29, 2010, 12:59 PM
This thread has wandered a bit, but I'd like to address the OP's original point.

The job of the media or press is to report the facts of an incident. The Chronicle and other reputable media outlets have done their jobs admirably in reporting the fact of AC's elimination, and providing quotes from both the head of the ground jury who eliminated her and AC herself.

On the Chronicle's Facebook page, there is also a photo posted of Parzival's tongue injury.

It is absolutely NOT the job of the media to infer any reasons for the injury other than those stated by the people involved. Any extrapolation from the bare facts should be done by the readers.

Fair and unbiased reporting, not incomplete reporting.

Donella
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:02 PM
Please show me where Alois Podhasjky or Klimke supported or advocated harsh riding? I have book shelves lined with books that are correct classical/traditional dressage that makes the horse better and happier and treats it with respect (which btw does not mean mamby pamby handling)

Are those two the only "masters" that you consider to be classical? I cannot quote off the top of my head all of the times I have taken pause when reading (I am not sure I am motivated enough to search for them now) but I do recall de La Guérinière devoting a few paragraphs to horses that continuously stick their tounges out. He suggests holding the tounge on a board and cutting the sides of the tounge off. He also devotes a few paragraphs to teaching his readers how to "make blazes" on their horse's faces. Ie cut the tissue off and then cause scarring to make the hair grow back white.

I also recall Steinbrecht advocating the creation of a bloody wound on the horse's side so that he will then be more electric to the spur.

There are lots of examples. Klimke himself was known to take horses from unstarted four year olds to GP in two to three years. If that were Anky, the world would be in an uproar and everyone here would say that she "pushes" her horse too much.

And whoever made the comment about parelli. Spare me. You cannot compare teaching your horse to load in a trailer ect to training an international GP horse. I will guarentee that that kind of training is WAY over the heads of most people here.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:15 PM
I guess my answer would be close to the 'it works for them'. Let's use an example. In hunter/jumper land, there is a position over fences that most everyone in that discipline would agree is correct. Yet, when we see photos of the very best hunter/jumper riders, we more often than not see some pretty acrobatic positions in the riders. That is because these riders know how to manipulate their bodies to get the horse to jump in the most perfect form. They are not in an equitation class where their position is being judged.

That's very interesting, because even over there in H/J land, incorrect riding is incorrect riding - even if it does the job.

They are in acrobatic positions often yes, but GM (the H/J god of all things H/J) says that the position would be better off correct. Several of his books critique the riders that aren't.

I'm really not seeing the comparison, as long as I'm off the back and out of the mouth over a fence, I may not be correct but I'm not harmful to the horse.


Onegraypony, you can ask the question, but it has been dealt with SOOOO many times before on this board, why not save everyone a lot of aggravation and search posts for “BTV” or “Rollkur” or “Anky-haters anonymous” and you can read the opposing views to your heart’s content.

Oh, believe me, I've read. I still haven't seen anything logical. Sven's articles don't make much sense to me. If it were for a moment in time, I could see it. Even for a stretch or two - okay, that makes some sense. An entire warmup ride? Now I'm confused. And for the warmup ride I am referring to, I'm talking about the 10 minutes of Werth ride from the other video.

If it were purely to get the back up, then why not ride the entire test BTV? If it's not harmful and brings the back up, then it should be GOOD for the horse to be ridden in that manner, and we should change the rules to allow it to be so.

And if we don't believe that it should be done for long, then why do we use the stretchy circle, and why should we not use the nose to the chest as the ultimate in body positioning? If it's so difficult for us ammies to understand, put it in the highest level of tests.

Right? Isn't that logical?

If it were good for the horse, not just good for the test and competition, then we should consider teaching everyone these techniques, not just the upper level riders, no?

In fact, we should all be practicing "gently bringing the nose back to the chest" to avoid "force".

As far as the concept being old - it's not old when current pictures and video of WEG show this concept being used actively. If YOU are done having the conversation than I suggest that you not participate in it. You can't prevent others from doing so, and in fact, it's quite rude of you to suggest that I not have a question, just because you have discussed it in the past.

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:25 PM
That's very interesting, because even over there in H/J land, incorrect riding is incorrect riding - even if it does the job.



I can't understand this statement. Hunter jumper land isn't a picture of great riding by any standard.

The bits alone help the rider avoid having to actually connect and ride the horse through. Mostly what I see is stiff horses pointed at fence after fence and I owned a jumper myself until last year. Horses are "bumped" down rather than bent, and bending without leg is notoriously a problem.

The training my mare had was jumping mostly, and the fundamentals otherwise were pretty much missing. Weve had internationally ranked jumper trainers at our barns and most of their riding consisted of overbent rolkur type riding on extremely forward horses for their flat work days.

I don't defend the close up photos of gaping mouths in dressage, but its the only discipline that keeps posting bad PR for itself. Other disciplines hide their bitting up sessions, and a jumper pulling a horse around to his/her knee while smacking it with a whip is too common place to make the news.

*shrug*

Lets have some perspective here please.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:30 PM
I can't understand this statement. Hunter jumper land isn't a picture of great riding by any standard.


Oy vey. I wasn't saying that every H/J rider is a good rider and that there aren't abuses there. What I *was* saying was that incorrect riding is still incorrect riding, and we would all agree about that, no?

But when we talk about BTV riding in Jumper-land we say - that's not correct. Maybe they do it, but it's not correct. In fact, most jumpers HIDE most of that type of riding, because it's very much not correct. Not all of it and I've definitely seen some nasties in the warmup rings there, but no one ever said to me "oh that's okay, it's just jumper riding - in fact, it's a training technique and you're just too stupid to know what they are doing"

Here we seem to be saying - it's correct, it's okay, it's necessary at the higher levels.

At which point I say, huh?

ToN Farm
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:31 PM
OneGrayPony, your knowledge of dressage seems lacking. By the way, it's Sjef, not Sven.

In order to perform GP movements, a horse needs to be highly collected. When schooling in a low, deep, and round posture, their goals are different. What each rider's goal is in warmup varies. If low/deep/round were permitted in the ring, I highly doubt anyone would do it there because it would not enhance their performance.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:34 PM
OneGrayPony, your knowledge of dressage seems lacking. By the way, it's Sjef, not Sven.

*laughing* you've got me - Sjef. Oops!

And I freely told you it was lacking when I posted originally, which is why I asked the question to begin with. I told you all that I was a novice to dressage and THAT'S why I was asking the question. Apparently, that's been missed.




In order to perform GP movements, a horse needs to be highly collected. When schooling in a low, deep, and round posture, their goals are different. What each rider's goal is in warmup varies. If low/deep/round were permitted in the ring, I highly doubt anyone would do it there because it would not enhance their performance.

Okay, so...the goal of low/deep/round is?

carolprudm
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:42 PM
And whoever made the comment about parelli. Spare me. You cannot compare teaching your horse to load in a trailer ect to training an international GP horse. I will guarentee that that kind of training is WAY over the heads of most people here.

That would have been me, and your statement proves my point. Their response to questions such as the ones about the gum twitch is "Well, that's an advanced technique, above your level and ability to ubderstand"

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:46 PM
Please show me where Alois Podhasjky or Klimke supported or advocated harsh riding? I have book shelves lined with books that are correct classical/traditional dressage that makes the horse better and happier and treats it with respect (which btw does not mean mamby pamby handling)

Are those two the only "masters" that you consider to be classical? I cannot quote off the top of my head all of the times I have taken pause when reading (I am not sure I am motivated enough to search for them now) but I do recall de La Guérinière devoting a few paragraphs to horses that continuously stick their tounges out. He suggests holding the tounge on a board and cutting the sides of the tounge off. He also devotes a few paragraphs to teaching his readers how to "make blazes" on their horse's faces. Ie cut the tissue off and then cause scarring to make the hair grow back white.

I also recall Steinbrecht advocating the creation of a bloody wound on the horse's side so that he will then be more electric to the spur.

There are lots of examples. Klimke himself was known to take horses from unstarted four year olds to GP in two to three years. If that were Anky, the world would be in an uproar and everyone here would say that she "pushes" her horse too much.

And whoever made the comment about parelli. Spare me. You cannot compare teaching your horse to load in a trailer ect to training an international GP horse. I will guarentee that that kind of training is WAY over the heads of most people here.

yes, i agree that there are certain items in older books that i find to be non horse friendly.... however, those books were written 100s of years ago.... for DLG, it was what 400 years ago? This is why i chose classical/traditional writers from a more modern time to use as examples because they are from our "moral" time. I can list many many books that advocate horse friendly training that are correct classical etc. i am sure you have the same books.

why should we go back in time and start advocating non horse friendly training? not even for war, but for scores? we should be more enlightened that those before us, not less.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 01:47 PM
Okay, so...the goal of low/deep/round is?

Per Anky, "gymnasticizing the horse." Stretching the top line and strengthening the core muscles, particularly the back. Think "yoga."

ZiggyStardust
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:00 PM
That's why people use cranks and flashes. Most horses would prefer to allow the energy to leak out the mouth rather than engage behind. Who can blame them; it's hard work.


Yes, this is explained by the laws of equine physics, whereby strapping the mouth shut forcibly squirts the kinetic energy all the way back to the butt instead of leaking out the mouth. For reals. He can't possibly still evade behind with his face in a vise. Unless he just gives up. Giving up is an ok alternative to engaging willingly, though, since you still get the points.

I hate it when I forget to crank the noseband and my horse sprays energy from his mouth. So messy.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:06 PM
Thank you EH, for answering my question directly - it is much appreciated.

So, if the goal of LDR, Rollkur, BTV, or whatever the heck it is is to do equine yoga and strengthen the core, and the goal of the tests is to test basically the training of the horse, which would include yogic training such as being on the bit at all, submissiveness and strength etc....

The goal of dressage is "to develop a horse's flexibility, responsiveness to aids and balance." (taken from About.com, who just wrote it better than I could articulate it at the moment), no?

So, since LDR develops flexibility and dressage develops flexibility then it should be totally permissible and acceptable in the ring.

I'm genuinely confused, not trying to be a PITA, but the arguments don't make any sense to me.

esdressage
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:12 PM
I hate it when I forget to crank the noseband and my horse sprays energy from his mouth. So messy.

:lol:

MLK1
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:12 PM
Soooooooo when people perform yoga, do they always have such miserable expressions on their faces like the horses do when asked to do Rollkur? After all some are saying they are the same thing. ;)

crittertwitter
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:15 PM
Soooooooo when people perform yoga, do they always have such miserable expressions on their faces like the horses do when asked to due Rollkur? After all some are saying they are the same thing. ;)

If we're talking Yoga a la Tony Horton, YES! :eek:

;)

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:17 PM
Thank you EH, for answering my question directly - it is much appreciated.

So, if the goal of LDR, Rollkur, BTV, or whatever the heck it is is to do equine yoga and strengthen the core, and the goal of the tests is to test basically the training of the horse, which would include yogic training such as being on the bit at all, submissiveness and strength etc....

The goal of dressage is "to develop a horse's flexibility, responsiveness to aids and balance." (taken from About.com, who just wrote it better than I could articulate it at the moment), no?

So, since LDR develops flexibility and dressage develops flexibility then it should be totally permissible and acceptable in the ring.

I'm genuinely confused, not trying to be a PITA, but the arguments don't make any sense to me.

Aha, but what you are missing is that competitive dressage--is a TEST of the the horse, the training as well as the GAITS and suppleness, etc. The tests are comprised of various movements that show off the things that are being TESTED.

Now think about any athlete who is preparing for a TEST or competition. He does not just repetitively do the motions of his sport. The athlete does stretching, strength building, aerobic capacity training, etc. as well as work on the necessary skill set for his sport. He does not necessarily do those things during his competition. (Imagine a football player stopping to lift some weights!)

The athlete does all sorts of things in training to enhance his ability to compete well in his sport.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:19 PM
Soooooooo when people perform yoga, do they always have such miserable expressions on their faces like the horses do when asked to do Rollkur? After all some are saying they are the same thing. ;)


Sometimes--especially when they are standing on their heads!! :p

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:21 PM
True EH, but the goal of football is not to develop the athletic ability, flexibility and strength of the human male. The goal of football is to play a game that involves pigskin and goalposts.

The goal of dressage is to develop the horse.

That I think is inherently the issue that I see here.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:23 PM
Soooooooo when people perform yoga, do they always have such miserable expressions on their faces like the horses do when asked to do Rollkur? After all some are saying they are the same thing.

I wasn't going to say anything, but this made me giggle, because you should SEE the faces I make when doing yoga - it's harder than it seems.

However, I'm doing yoga for me, and if someone were to jump on my back and pull my legs into position, it would be an entirely different experience and face I'd be making. Actually, I'd probably lay them out, but that's neither here nor there.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:27 PM
True EH, but the goal of football is not to develop the athletic ability, flexibility and strength of the human male. The goal of football is to play a game that involves pigskin and goalposts.

The goal of dressage is to develop the horse.

That I think is inherently the issue that I see here.

No. We are talking about an ATHLETIC COMPETITION in which the GOAL is to WIN! (like football, baseball, track, soccer, horse racing, dog racing, golf, tennis, gymnastics, diving, skating, etc.)

If you want to go to a demonstration, then go to the SRS or Cavalia or Disney on Ice or any of those events in which there is no winner or loser.

esdressage
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:38 PM
So, since LDR develops flexibility and dressage develops flexibility then it should be totally permissible and acceptable in the ring.

I think you're completely grasping at straws here to try to continue your "debate" if that's what it is.

Going back to H/J since you seem more comfortable there. What about the longing a lot of H/J people do the morning of competition, round and round and round and round and round… it obviously serves a purpose, right? Making the horse more placid in the arena. Where's that class in the show lineup? Or the trotting poles class???

Showing isn't a display of training techniques, stretching exercises, the hack around the field after the ride, etc, which are all helpful and valuable in a horse's athletic and mental development. It's the cumulation of months and years of training brought before the judges for just a few minutes of ride time, doing movements designed to showcase the result of that training. Ideally it shows a happy, athletic, capable horse who's been brought along correctly. Holes in the training, shortcuts, etc. should show and be penalized.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:38 PM
Huh.

Well, at least you stated it right out. *shrug*

Here I had bought into the happy horsesh*t that dressage was about training, competing against myself and my horse's level of training, continuing to improve and get better, and doing things "right".

Guess there's no place that that kind of mentality still exists, barring the circus or the SRS (which is amazing by the way - saw them in Vienna...love!).

So why bother going through all of the "no harm" vs. "harm" vs. all of that...why don't Anky, Sjef, Isabelle, whomever just say "we're in it to win the game and we'll do whatever is legal to do it?"

That at least I can respect. Disagree with vehemently, but respect. I don't like hunters any more for that reason - they are so far from the hunt field now that they might as well be...oh, I got nothing.

That at least would be a more truthful argument.

crittertwitter
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:39 PM
I wasn't going to say anything, but this made me giggle, because you should SEE the faces I make when doing yoga - it's harder than it seems.

However, I'm doing yoga for me, and if someone were to jump on my back and pull my legs into position, it would be an entirely different experience and face I'd be making. Actually, I'd probably lay them out, but that's neither here nor there.

lol I was thinking the same. Certain stretches and holding those positions... yoga is mean! So I can see some similarities. However, as you point out, we do yoga voluntarily. Additionally, EH has a point that athletes stretch their muscles to perform at their best. Stretching is important for muscles. Mmmkay.

As good as stretching is for our well-muscled, elite athletes, rollkur is not like carrot stretches. These are not nose to chest - hold 15 seconds - release - exercises done in a halter. They rely on the bit. That - the [abuse] of the horses mouth using the bit - is what I, indeed with only my "Dressage fundamentals," object to the most in the photos.

Again, the fact that athletes stretch their muscles because it's the healthy thing to do for their muscles - that's an excellent point. It's the method to which it seems many are opposed.

Funny, too, that the German doping should come up, as you have athletes who trusted their coaches and coaches who did exploit the athletes' desire to please/succeed. While I agree that doping is only similar to this situation in terms of what one is willing to do to succeed, there are some parallels... e.g., athletes doing things that they would not voluntarily do. I have really mixed feelings regarding some athletes who come out later - after high success - claiming to have been exploited by their coaches. Nonetheless, it clearly does happen, and it's more extreme in some than others.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:43 PM
What about the longing a lot of H/J people do the morning of competition, round and round and round and round and round… it obviously serves a purpose, right? Making the horse more placid in the arena. Where's that class in the show lineup? Or the trotting poles class??

Yep - and it sucks. I hate it. I think it's the epitome of sucktastic horsemanship and it's not good for the horse. The Quarter Horse world does have longe classes.

Trotting poles classes have been in the show lineup at many schooling shows. They are kind of cute, you oughta go visit one.

But again, the dressage world has always billed itself differently.

And no, it's not a debate, it's curiosity because there's a deep incongruity here that I'm not willing to accept at face value. If you consider that debate, well, then so be it.

Obviously I'm in the wrong discipline, because what *I* would like to do is to improve the horse and myself, to the highest level of training that we can accomplish. I'm in very few things to win them against other people.

Kareen
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:47 PM
I guess what separates these two worlds is why we're in it: I was in it for the horses whereas your casual ribbon-junky seems to be in despite the horses. Besides I find this 'you either ride competitive dressage or you are a bad rider' attitude quite revealing. Is there abuse going on in any equestrian discipline? Quite certainly. But that doesn't mean any of it is justified or better than any other.
I wonder how many of these fashionable trickists would manage to catch their horse when it's turned out lose in a 4 acre field *lol*.
I train mostly young horses and you can bet most of them find riding challengeing or unpleasant in the beginning. The point is my goal is to make them enjoy it with the training. Ever wondered if these horses are so 'explosive' and 'strong' because of the 'training' they've undergone? I sure do...

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:53 PM
Yep - and it sucks. I hate it. I think it's the epitome of sucktastic horsemanship and it's not good for the horse. The Quarter Horse world does have longe classes.

Trotting poles classes have been in the show lineup at many schooling shows. They are kind of cute, you oughta go visit one.

But again, the dressage world has always billed itself differently.

And no, it's not a debate, it's curiosity because there's a deep incongruity here that I'm not willing to accept at face value. If you consider that debate, well, then so be it.

Obviously I'm in the wrong discipline, because what *I* would like to do is to improve the horse and myself, to the highest level of training that we can accomplish. I'm in very few things to win them against other people.

Right. Then I would avoid competitions, if I were you. There are quite a few dressage schools that are geared toward exhibition and not competition. This is one of the things that so-called NH people like about their discipline, too.

Whatever floats your boat. Just don't come to the competition world and expect it to be non-competitive.

esdressage
Sep. 29, 2010, 02:59 PM
Obviously I'm in the wrong discipline, because what *I* would like to do is to improve the horse and myself, to the highest level of training that we can accomplish. I'm in very few things to win them against other people.

Well then hypothetically you're in the right discipline, because that's what most dressage riders I know are trying to do. We strive for the best riding we can achieve, bring our horses along with their long-term mental and physical soundness in mind, and go to shows to see if maybe this time, we'll get sevens ad eights instead of fives and sixes. We read the judges comments, watch videos of our rides, review all that with our instructors and continue on.

Everybody likes to win, let's be realistic here. But I'd rather have a ride that's a personal best and not win, than know that I rode harshly or took shortcuts to get that blue ribbon. I think most of the dressage riders you meet would be the same, and there are lots of dressage riders cringing at the photos and videos that are floating around. Defending the sport doesn't have to mean defending those moments, and likewise, competing doesn't have to mean doing it despite the horse's wellfare.

And I am, incidentally, and ex H/J rider myself. I showed and did well, but never longed my horse to death to do it or took other shortcuts. We trail rode, rode bareback and had tons of fun with our show horses too. I do the same with my dressage horse. But through it all, competition is a FUN, adrenaline-filled ride too, and why shouldn't it be? Why should it have to be one or the other, in mind or in reality?

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 03:01 PM
It does show, though, how the agricultural world has morphed, doesn't it?

*musing*

For instance, Hunter classes used to be basically for breeding, buying and selling of field hunters, which was actually the sport. You know, a way to show off the animals which you prized for another purpose. Same thing with pig showing, goat showing, chicken showing or whatever...

Now we don't use the horses for their original intended purposes, so we've turned it into a spectacle for money and ribbons.

Huh.

It's an interesting thought, to be sure. I guess I just don't have the "do whatever it takes to win" ethic. I didn't when I was in hunters either, but we won a lot. We won by buying suitable horses, that did actually go out on trail rides, in the hunt field etc., that did not need to be longed to death, and we rode.

I must be showing my age. Either that, or I've just had the brilliant luck of working with people that cared about the horse more than the wins.

Kareen
Sep. 29, 2010, 03:02 PM
Applause

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 03:06 PM
I think most of the dressage riders you meet would be the same, and there are lots of dressage riders cringing at the photos and videos that are floating around. Defending the sport doesn't have to mean defending those moments.

Sorry - replied before I saw your reply - my reply was actually directed toward EH, or rather, it was more of a muse.

That's why I originally thought I was in the right place because that was the picture of dressage that was painted to me by those who were knowledgeable in the past.

Now I don't know where the heck I belong *laughing*

So what are we defending now? Because I certainly wasn't attacking dressage as a concept. I *want* to do dressage the way it was always billed to me.

I'm confused as to how what I saw in the vids and pics could be acceptable to dressage as a sport. Whether or not it's abusive is irrelevant (well, not really, it is relevant, but it's not relevant to the discussion at hand) - but dressage as a sport should be saying - this is incorrect riding, and should not be acceptable, no?

dalpal
Sep. 29, 2010, 03:19 PM
Well, MBM, most people who cry abuse are not vegetarians, statistically speaking. What I am saying is that there are much worse "abuses" out there in regards to animals.

I honestly just think people don't get out enough. Go to any major show where there are huge , powerful, athletic, hot and reactive horses in an electric atmosphere and see if everything always looks textbook. It doesn't, trust me. The media is loving this stuff and everyone is buying into it. I consider myself a pretty strong proponent of animal welfare and I am just plain tired of the misdirected negative energy.

Didn't really want to get into this debate..was lurking...but SERIOUSLY.....it's okay because there's worse abuse out there? Wow, what an argument. :no:

There is no justification for cranking a horse's head into his chest in the name of "Training".......I doubt seriously that the old German Schoolmasters used this training technique. Perhaps, just perhaps...everyone is after that flamboyant, hot dressage horse with extravagant gaits...and this is the price the horse pays in order to be "rideable" at the Grand Prix level.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 03:34 PM
Sorry - replied before I saw your reply - my reply was actually directed toward EH, or rather, it was more of a muse.

That's why I originally thought I was in the right place because that was the picture of dressage that was painted to me by those who were knowledgeable in the past.

Now I don't know where the heck I belong *laughing*

So what are we defending now? Because I certainly wasn't attacking dressage as a concept. I *want* to do dressage the way it was always billed to me.

I'm confused as to how what I saw in the vids and pics could be acceptable to dressage as a sport. Whether or not it's abusive is irrelevant (well, not really, it is relevant, but it's not relevant to the discussion at hand) - but dressage as a sport should be saying - this is incorrect riding, and should not be acceptable, no?

The ideal is a perfect position and invisible aids. However, horses do not always permit the ideal--either because they are lazy and the work is hard, or because they are spooky, energized and fearful in the atmosphere or what have you. Sometimes "correct riding" can get you killed--or sometimes with a lazy evasive horse, you will just get a lousy score.

What you are watching in the pictures and the videos is not meant to be correct riding. It is meant to be correct training. It is meant to be effective riding.

Competitive riding is a very different thing. I have ridden in dressage barns geared to competition and those geared toward exhibition, personal growth and spiritual enlightenment. The difference is not as simple as "competitive riding is about winning." Competitive riding is about test riding. In test riding, you need to make the transition at a certain spot in the arena, and end the movement at another spot while doing everything you can to make it clean, prompt, expressive, etc. etc. In non-competitive riding, the rider makes the transition whenever and whereever the horse is ready--when he is exactly how the rider wants him to be, and not before.

So you see it really is very different. Both are equally difficult--just different.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:13 PM
But is not the epitome of test riding to be the same as the epitome of non-competitive riding? Is that not my job as a rider to not only ensure that the transition or what have you is exactly where I want it to be...where I want the horse to be...and exactly at x (or any of the other dressage letters)?

I do understand what you are saying, and I do understand that correct riding in the heat of a bad moment, for instance, could be dangerous - but that's not what we're talking about here. I wouldn't really give a crap if the horse was btv if he was spooking at the parachutist - heck, I'd expect him to be - but again, that's not what we are talking about.

Effective training should not be that far off of what effective riding should be. Are there moments? Sure. But 10 minutes of moments in a warmup arena are different to me than the momentary correction (or really, the horses that are ridden that way just suck, and they need better horses).

I've had an ex-UL dressage prospect, and yes, he was a pain in the rear. He demanded correct riding from you, to be sure, and he never did adapt to hunter-land. He would flat out refuse to go forward if you tipped at all, and would rear and carry on like a moron. He had every evasion known to man possible. I'm sure we had many ugly moments. But they were moments. I couldn't see justifying riding him with his chin to his chest for very long at all, unless he was one step from the meat-man, which I'm sure the Dutch horses aren't.

Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but it is an interesting discussion, as we can control what Competition Dressage is or isn't, but the horses themselves cannot - so it's well worth talking about as long as the discourse stays civil. :)

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:21 PM
The reason that many of those horses are NOT spooking, bucking or behaving like morons is because there is some very effective, but not pretty, riding going on!

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:26 PM
Hmmm...so...is that the only way to train a horse to not be spooky bucking and generally behaving like a moron?

I think I could buy into that more if it were an isolated rider/horse combo. You know - this horse is a pain in the rear, and we have to do some special things. I still wouldn't like it, but I'd get it.

Am I to believe that all of these horses are just that insane? That athleticism only comes with a mind that is...well...nutty?

grayarabpony
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:28 PM
But is not the epitome of test riding to be the same as the epitome of non-competitive riding? Is that not my job as a rider to not only ensure that the transition or what have you is exactly where I want it to be...where I want the horse to be...and exactly at x (or any of the other dressage letters)?


Yes. That's why competitive dressage is considered to be a very difficult discipline.

I don't buy that these horses would be acting like broncs if their chins were not to their chests. Yes, they need to have energy, but they are trained to channel that energy into work. Will they have unruly moments in a highly charged atmosphere occasionally? Sure, but not daily, and these horses are used to showing in front of crowds.

danskbreeder
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:34 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else has posted a link to this picture but it might explain a little of how a horse could get blood in his mouth.

http://st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=8357&next=4


Erica

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:55 PM
Hmmm...so...is that the only way to train a horse to not be spooky bucking and generally behaving like a moron?

I think I could buy into that more if it were an isolated rider/horse combo. You know - this horse is a pain in the rear, and we have to do some special things. I still wouldn't like it, but I'd get it.

Am I to believe that all of these horses are just that insane? That athleticism only comes with a mind that is...well...nutty?

Not the only way no.. Some use drugs. Some horses are fine. Many at this level .are very very hot. And the atmosphere is electric.

And to be clear- rollkur is a training posture to stretch and strengthen. It is what you are calling poor rider position that I say is effective riding to keep the horse paying attention and under control. Don't confuse these two issues.

ZiggyStardust
Sep. 29, 2010, 07:18 PM
If you want to go to a demonstration, then go to the SRS or Cavalia or Disney on Ice or any of those events in which there is no winner or loser.

I would like to introduce crank and spank to Disney on Ice. I think it would greatly improve their shows. 18+ only though, please.

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 29, 2010, 07:25 PM
I think it's hard to explain anything to someone who hasn't stood next to a ring of horses that were extremely competative at the international level.

MOST of the riders I know wouldn't even be able to walk these animals around the ring, let alone actually attempt a test. One mare that was selected for the dutch championships that I saw personally in traing was extremely hot and ill tempered. She'd gone through several trainers before someone was able to really channel that energy.

The thing was, she was ridden very deep most of her warmups (and needed it) to prevent her spook, spin, rear, routine whenever she felt the need, and turned into here years later the most magnificent animal and amicable at that.

Im sure her still shots on most days would have been horrific, luckily our trainer wasnt as famous as these people, so she was left to do what was needed.

Say what you will, but everyone thinks they can ride until you see some of those auction horses come home and toss the best riders in the world on their heads like a lawn dart.

Bats79
Sep. 29, 2010, 07:49 PM
I think it's hard to explain anything to someone who hasn't stood next to a ring of horses that were extremely competative at the international level.

MOST of the riders I know wouldn't even be able to walk these animals around the ring, let alone actually attempt a test. One mare that was selected for the dutch championships that I saw personally in traing was extremely hot and ill tempered. She'd gone through several trainers before someone was able to really channel that energy.

The thing was, she was ridden very deep most of her warmups (and needed it) to prevent her spook, spin, rear, routine whenever she felt the need, and turned into here years later the most magnificent animal and amicable at that.

Im sure her still shots on most days would have been horrific, luckily our trainer wasnt as famous as these people, so she was left to do what was needed.

Say what you will, but everyone thinks they can ride until you see some of those auction horses come home and toss the best riders in the world on their heads like a lawn dart.

And this makes good dressage WHY? Because people can come up with techniques that are unfair to the horse - that don't allow it to say "I hate this" - so that just because they can move fancy they HAVE to do as they are told?

I understand this mare made some of her feelings known in the Special. Shame she didn't do it in the first days competition.

MLD
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:09 PM
NOT a common incident, yet the press kind of presents it that way! :rolleyes: Kind elastic giving contact = quiet mouth = NO TONGUE BITING. Duh!!

Where is the AMERICAN press? Hello, Dressagedaily? Where are you? Are you quiet because we are the host country, or what's the problem??? Why is it that we have to go to foreign sites - Horseandhound - to read the story? Where is Eurodressage and Horse2rider?

Anyone else ever had their horse bite their tongue? :rolleyes: Or, anyone ever witnessed another horse bite it's tongue while ridden? I don't think it's a common occurrence! :mad:

This really is apauling, the "tongue biting" incident with Adelinde Cornelissen. If the rider had a proper connection = kind, giving, elastic hands, and had the horse over his back into a receiving hand, and not curled up, none of this would have happened.

I hope the Dutch are ashamed and embarrassed! Sadly, they probably are not, as this style of riding seems to be their national style!

I love how everyone is just blowing this out of proportion. Maybe the press isn't stepping up because it was just simply a tongue biting accident and nothing more.

My mare has bitten her tongue while I was riding her. I ride first level. The tongue bleed like crazy and it was just a small nick on the end... I could barely find it. It quickly stopped bleeding and I actually kept on riding.

I saw a video of AC's ride. The horse WAS NOT curled up... in fact, the pair looked lovely and it appeared as if it was going to be a very nice test.

I am not for rolkur, but I am also not for making accusations when there is really nothing to it, except that it was a sad/disappointing moment for the pair.

suzy
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:22 PM
True EH, but the goal of football is not to develop the athletic ability, flexibility and strength of the human male. The goal of football is to play a game that involves pigskin and goalposts.

The goal of dressage is to develop the horse.

That I think is inherently the issue that I see here.

OneGrayPony, Yes, the object is to get the football over the opponent's goal, but the team with the most athletic, flexible, and strong players are going to win. Athleticism and strategy are what win the game, not the football and goal posts.

The point of LDR or Rollkur is to supple, elasticize, and gymnasticize the horse when SCHOOLING so that he can perform to the best of his ability in the show ring. It is not an end in itself but rather a means to an end. Clearly there are other ways to supple a horse; this is just one.

mbm
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:27 PM
suzy if that is true then why does Sjef say it is because tiny women cant control big strong horses without it?

Bats79
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:29 PM
Horses trained in hyperflexion do not do their tests "curled up". They do, however, usually do them hard up against the bit with high amounts of pressure on the curb which will compress the tongue.

You rarely see moments of give by the rider, the horse rarely shows anything resembling self carriage - in other words they look as though they would take off if the contact was dropped.

Their balance, both lateral and longitudinal, is always against the hand.

This makes it easy for some judges to give them high marks for "connection" because the contact never seems to vary. Unlike the rider who is aiming for lightness in hand and self carriage and takes the risk of "losing it" for a stride or two.

When a hyperflexed horse goes wrong it usually does so with a bang!

suzy
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:38 PM
suzy if that is true then why does Sjef say it is because tiny women cant control big strong horses without it?

I have no idea. You need to ask Sjef directly. My own opinion is that there are several roads to Rome, and each rider has to select what works best with his horse and his idea of what is a humane approach. It's a personal choice until the FEI mandates how we warm up our horses.

grayarabpony
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:50 PM
I think it's hard to explain anything to someone who hasn't stood next to a ring of horses that were extremely competative at the international level.



I've been to Devon and the Olympics in Atlanta as well as a lot of other shows, and rogues at the upper level are not the norm. They HAVE to be rideable as well as athletic. They may click with one particular rider, but they are not going to act like an idiot with that person every day. If they did they couldn't get past 1st level. To take one example and then paint with a broad brush -- once again -- doesn't make any sense.

Does this mean anybody could hop on these horses and ride? Of course not. They're sensitive and highly trained (oh, except for the auction horses -- some of the youngsters have only been under saddle a couple of weeks when sold), as well as big movers. Are always they breathing fire, ready to throw their riders any second, as a poster here suggested? No.

Donella
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:04 PM
Say what you will, but everyone thinks they can ride until you see some of those auction horses come home and toss the best riders in the world on their heads like a lawn dart

Yup. If all the naysayers here had to go and spend a few months riding horses at a competition barn in Germany they would be sing'n a different tune. LOL. Gawd.

These arguements are so pointless. I just hope that those who hate our sport so much take their hate elsewhere.

Fixerupper
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:11 PM
yah...go hate vaulting horses....they go in side reins for gawd's sake!!!
I saw one bite its tongue once too....SHAME!

siegi b.
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:12 PM
I just get a big laugh out of all these silly arguments and pompous statements about what dressage should be (made by folks who don't have a clue about dressage but ride their keyboards well).

Meantime, the Dutch are winning at WEG!!! Yes!

mickeydoodle
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:24 PM
My goodness!!!!!!!!!!!!!! watching Totilas today was just amazing- he can piaffe/passage three feet off the ground, his changes are 10+ and then after the halt and last salute, when the whole stadium is going nuts, waving flags, on their feet screaming, he can walk on a loose rein - looking at the crowd, it looks like he is saying "hi y'all, so glad you like me, how about going around again? anyone got a treat?"

Then at the awards, when they remount for the victory lap- Ravel is going nuts, very explosive, Mistral has gone back to the barn (lost his cookies, so nervous he piaffed non-stop) Toto looks like he is out for a canter, light gallop around the park. He even transitions to walk at the podium again (after two rounds of the stadium) and walks flat footed on a totally loose rein out of the stadium, checking out the cheering/screaming crowd as he goes.

utterly freaking amazing

grayarabpony
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:24 PM
Yup. If all the naysayers here had to go and spend a few months riding horses at a competition barn in Germany they would be sing'n a different tune. LOL. Gawd.

These arguements are so pointless. I just hope that those who hate our sport so much take their hate elsewhere.

It's not "your" sport, and if I had to crank a horse's head to its chest in order to be able to ride it, then I'd say better horses need to be bred. I have a nice warmblood who is 77% blood and I don't have to do that when I ride him. In fact I can guarantee that he would flunk out of a rolkur program because he would not tolerate it. Nor could he use himself to the best of his ability.

Don't you think that riders here have taken lessons with riders with Europe? Well, they have.

The pompous ones are the ones saying that dressage is over everyone's elses head. :lol: Good dressage is very difficult to do but not difficult to see.

btw siegi, do you ride?

mickeydoodle
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:31 PM
It's not "your" sport, and if I had to crank a horse's head to its chest in order to be able to ride it, then I'd say better horses need to be bred. I have a nice warmblood who is 77% blood and I don't have to do that when I ride him. In fact I can guarantee that he would flunk out of a rolkur program because he would not tolerate it. Nor could he use himself to the best of his ability.

Don't you think that riders here have taken lessons with riders with Europe? Well, they have.

The pompous ones are the ones saying that dressage is over everyone's elses head. :lol: Good dressage is very difficult to do but not difficult to see.

btw siegi, do you ride?

but didn't you say in another thread (pokey pony) that you were not riding anything but a school horse that the instructor had to follow with a lunge whip to get a trot?

Have you ever ridden one tempis? the feeling is just amazing when you can get 15 in a row- better than heroin, crack, meth, sky diving, bungee jumping, and even sex.

Fixerupper
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:47 PM
but didn't you say in another thread (pokey pony) that you were not riding anything but a school horse that the instructor had to follow with a lunge whip to get a trot?

...probably why it hurts to watch WEG


Have you ever ridden one tempis? the feeling is just amazing when you can get 15 in a row- better than heroin, crack, meth, sky diving, bungee jumping, and even sex.

ummm...not into the hard drugs yet...:winkgrin:
but one or two good clean changes are like a tequila shot on Friday at 5:15...
or a cold glass of pinot grigio on the deck at sunset....


but still not as good as sex....

:lol:

AZ Native
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:50 PM
Really good, related article : http://blog.horsesforlife.com/

GreyStreet
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:02 PM
Funny how an argument concerning the well being of the horse is reduced to mud slinging. It's like watching a political debate between candidates. I thought the foundation for dressage was partnership between horse and rider - harmony and respect. Seems like a few posters here could stand to remember those principles.

I'm a lowly first level rider and it doesn't hurt me one bit to watch WEG. And then tomorrow I'll go out and keep working up the training scale with my horse - who, by the way, would dump my ass on the ground if I ever cranked her around the arena.

Maybe we all could learn a little something from our equine partners about tolerance and patience - they seem to do a whole lot of both for us.

mickeydoodle
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:08 PM
Funny how an argument concerning the well being of the horse is reduced to mud slinging. It's like watching a political debate between candidates. I though the foundation for dressage was partnership between horse and rider - harmony and respect. Seems like a few posters here could stand to remember those principles.

Were you at the WEG yesterday? Did you see the pair come in the ring and start the test? It really was extrordinary. They could have given Totilas/Gal a run for their money. The horse was so UPHILL, supple, bendable, compress-expandable, harmonious, it was really impressive. I do not believe that if the horse was so miserable, hated the rider, abused, etc etc etc that the picture could have looked as it did.

GreyStreet
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:15 PM
No, I wasn't. And I don't really see how that's valid to what I posted. I watched the first few minutes of her ride before she got called out. I make no judgements on what actually happened - I've been around horses long enough to see them acquire various injuries. I'm commenting on the overall tone of this thread and the idea that those of us who are lower level riders have absolutely no concept of correct classical training.

I'm sorry, but the training scale is in place for a reason - no one starts at the top. At some point in their lives, all riders start out at the bottom and work their way up. It's their choice of methods along the way that we're discussing now.

I just happen to choose a different method and don't feel that due to my status as a first/schooling second rider that my opinion is any less valid. But then, competing at an international level competition is not my be all, end all. Winning is not my be all, end all.

I train for the betterment of myself and my horse and for our partnership. I want to move up the levels to see how far we can go in our partnership - and if we win along the way, super. But I don't see my perspective on correct training methods changing.

Fixerupper
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:16 PM
reply to GreyStreet

point being, m'dear....if
as a 'lowly first level rider' (your words)
you tried any method that you can think of....
to get any horse you ride...
to do anything more than tolerate your learning curve...
they have every right to 'dump your ass on the ground' (your words)

just sayin'

OneGrayPony
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:54 PM
Hey mickeydoodle, just pointing out that you are mistaking me for grayarabpony. I'm the one who is reriding on a school horse after 2 severe falls last year that nearly killed me. Trying to get my confidence back and all- so grateful for your support.

Over 25 years in the saddle in different disciplines and I have never been treated this way. Thank you so much for the assumption of my incompetence- feel free to make others as you wish in order to defend your position.

Can you come back with something other than a cheap shot? I thought that EH and I were having quite a lovely exchange about it.

cookie-monster
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:45 AM
ok, I only got through some of page 6, so sorry if this was brought up. I only saw the original pics of her being excused, I wasn't actually there. And i read the report saying the vet said the horse bit his tongue (the end of it I believe it said).

All i wanted to add is that mouths & tongues bleed a lot. So even a small bite to his own tongue could make it look really bad. I don't bite my tongue often, but when I do, it's usually hard and unexpected! Ouch!

Sabine
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:14 AM
Say what you will, but everyone thinks they can ride until you see some of those auction horses come home and toss the best riders in the world on their heads like a lawn dart

Yup. If all the naysayers here had to go and spend a few months riding horses at a competition barn in Germany they would be sing'n a different tune. LOL. Gawd.

These arguements are so pointless. I just hope that those who hate our sport so much take their hate elsewhere.

True that...a bunch folks that never sat on a real horse...mostly because they would have been too scared of it...LOL! not worth argueing...not in the least worth it...
I have come to the conclusion that it does not make sense wasting your energy on arguing something as crazy as this-...it is a waste of time, energy and it makes you feel very frustrated in the long run. Adelinde is a fantastic rider who owns a horse that probably noone here would even come close to- let alone ride...and she has to listen to this stuff...- forget it!! the horse is fine- he bit his tongue- he is huge and hot and strong- not because he's been abused by training but because he just WANTS TO BE LIKE THIS!!

This nature also gives him the great ability to be VERY forward, very light and floaty and very fabulous to watch. So go and figure this out!! and then go back and condem the whole sport of dressage, the judges and everything that goes with it...

signing off!!

Bats79
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:51 AM
True that...a bunch folks that never sat on a real horse...mostly because they would have been too scared of it...LOL! not worth argueing...not in the least worth it...
I have come to the conclusion that it does not make sense wasting your energy on arguing something as crazy as this-...it is a waste of time, energy and it makes you feel very frustrated in the long run. Adelinde is a fantastic rider who owns a horse that probably noone here would even come close to- let alone ride...and she has to listen to this stuff...- forget it!! the horse is fine- he bit his tongue- he is huge and hot and strong- not because he's been abused by training but because he just WANTS TO BE LIKE THIS!!

This nature also gives him the great ability to be VERY forward, very light and floaty and very fabulous to watch. So go and figure this out!! and then go back and condem the whole sport of dressage, the judges and everything that goes with it...

signing off!!

So "a real horse" is one who fights, is anxious and so lacks in confidence that the first thing it trys to do is chuck the rider off. Now I understand why Klimke didn't want a horse after it had been "so wonderfully trained" for the auction system. He was a nobody that couldn't sit on one.

I'm middle aged (as good as) I breed and start my own warmblood horses and I have trained several to GP from babies. I think you are contemptible that the only answer you have for people who don't like this TRAINING SYSTEM is to rubbish the people themselves.

I think you should sign off. Best thing yet.

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 06:10 AM
Ignorance is so frustrating... You are right Sabine. ;)

GreyStreet
Sep. 30, 2010, 07:41 AM
Wow, what a welcome into the world of COTH dressage ;) Thank goodness the dressage world I know is different.

I suppose the rest of you just popped out of the womb knowing how to do one tempis and utiliizing the "art" of rollkur for the horse's well being and training development?

Yes, this lowly, LEARNING, rider will continue to work up the scales in a correct manner.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 07:58 AM
EH, I'm sorry - I was actually talking about LDR, not her riding with her shoulders behind her heels for most of this thread. Those two things were separate issues, and you're right, I should have treated them as such.

So, Sabine, Ridgeback and Seigi all seem to be pointing to the fact that RK/LDR is used for submission, and NOT for gymnasticizing the horse. EH and Anky spoke of it being equine yoga, so which is it?

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 08:13 AM
What a number of posters seem to dismiss is the fact that many of these top international horses are hot. They were born that way. It is what makes them so spectacular and the reason that the Klimkes, Van Grunsvens, and Peters of the world seek them out. But it takes tremendous skill and experience to ride and train them, so they are only suitable for the best of the best.

Whether or not you agree with rollkur is entirely beside the point because not all of these riders are using that technique. Since a number of you have mentioned Reiner Klimke and Biotop, I will use them as an example. Biotop had a reputation for being an extremely hot and difficult horse. Klimke did not train using rollkur. Klimke enjoyed some successes with Biotop, but Biotop was not reliable because of his hot nature. However, in spite of Biotop’s inconsistency and aberrant (in some instances) behavior, none of you are attacking Klimke and accusing him of making his horse “anxious” or “lacking confidence” because of the training methods used. But Adelinde is being skewered when none of us know the facts for absolute sure. Meanwhile, Parzival had been getting fantastic scores right up to the point of his elimination. Doesn’t anyone see the hypocrisy here?

Klimke, Adelinde, and other top riders on hot horses have actually increased their horse’s confidence levels. But, these horses will always be inherently hot—it’s their basic nature, and no training is going to change that.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 08:16 AM
So, Sabine, Ridgeback and Seigi all seem to be pointing to the fact that RK/LDR is used for submission, and NOT for gymnasticizing the horse. EH and Anky spoke of it being equine yoga, so which is it?

My understanding is that it can be used for either or both, depending on the horse/rider. I recall hearing that Nicole Uphoff used it with Rembrandt for submission because he was such a difficult horse. When watching Werth warm up one of her horses, it seemed she was using it to accomplish submission and suppleness.

grayarabpony
Sep. 30, 2010, 08:53 AM
but didn't you say in another thread (pokey pony) that you were not riding anything but a school horse that the instructor had to follow with a lunge whip to get a trot?

Have you ever ridden one tempis? the feeling is just amazing when you can get 15 in a row- better than heroin, crack, meth, sky diving, bungee jumping, and even sex.

No, that wasn't me. Read before trying to pull the condescension card.

So you've done all the above. My, what a resume. :lol:

As far as the original subject of this thread it's a tempest in a teapot.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 30, 2010, 09:08 AM
EH, I'm sorry - I was actually talking about LDR, not her riding with her shoulders behind her heels for most of this thread. Those two things were separate issues, and you're right, I should have treated them as such.

So, Sabine, Ridgeback and Seigi all seem to be pointing to the fact that RK/LDR is used for submission, and NOT for gymnasticizing the horse. EH and Anky spoke of it being equine yoga, so which is it?

Suzy is correct. It is a tool, like any other, that can have more than one purpose. Supposedly, it started with jumpers. Then Nicole Uphoff used it with Rembrandt--she said because he was extremely spooky. Somewhere along the line, I think that it was noticed that horses that are trained LDR gain increased core strength and suppleness and so it began to be used for that reason as well.

Some of what I have noticed in the top modern warmblood horses, is not only are they hot, hot hot and full of natural energy, but their conformation and natural movement can be loose to the extreme. They are built sometimes freakishly uphill with long legs and necks. A vet ( who is well known internationally) told me that she finds these fancy dressage horses to be borderline "ataxic." It takes a lot to put such a horse together and keep him coordinated.

I've always learned that when you find a horse with a loose, forward gaits that you will have difficulty collecting all that movement and the gaits may become impure. Yet they keep breeding more and more horses like this, and I think it is because they have found a way to ride them. LDR is a way to collect all that energy and movement while keeping the horse loose and supple in the movements.

Regarding the hot temperaments, if a rider tries to keep the horse under control--the tendency is to shorten the rein and hold the horse, as a result of which the horse's neck telescopes in and comes up and his back hollows. LDR is a way of keeping the horse's attention, keeping him under control, and stretching his topline and engaging his core and back muscles at the same time.

So a rider may use LDR just to stretch and strengthen and to put together a relaxed loose horse, or a rider may use it to control and attempt to focus and relax a hot tempermental horse or both. I think that some of the extreme RK that you see at this level is usually both, and the rider is doing all that he/she can to effectively keep the horse working in the show atmosphere.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 09:24 AM
Thank you EH - that was the rational explanation that I was looking for. :)

I must admit that my eye is old fashioned - many of these horses just look like freakazoids to me and I'm amazed that they stay sound at all with all that leg flinging :) I'm sure my eye will change with time, but they almost appear freaky like TWH horses appear freaky if you know what I mean?

This is, of course, not meant to be a criticism of them, but they do look odd and unnatural. Mistral does not, but Totilas and what was that wonder-stallion's name from a few years ago - can't remember his name, it's early, I haven't had any coffee and I'm getting old... They both do.

I've noticed that a lot of them seem also to be quite long-backed. I can accept that a long backed horse perhaps needs slightly different training than one with a more ideal conformation, being a very long-backed person myself :)

I'm still not sure that I like what I see with regard to LDR and the amount of pressure on the mouth, and I'll have to go back and ponder more the net effects of such training, but at least now I have more of an understanding than "You're too stupid to get it because you're not brilliant like they are :)"

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 09:28 AM
I'm still not sure that I like what I see with regard to LDR and the amount of pressure on the mouth, and I'll have to go back and ponder more the net effects of such training, but at least now I have more of an understanding than "You're too stupid to get it because you're not brilliant like they are :)"

The good thing is that no one is being forced to use any particular training method. It's all personal choice and should be based on what works for your horse based on his temperament and conformation. And, we always have the option of changing methods if the one we are using is not working satisfactorily.

I don't think anyone was accusing you or others of not knowing enough to have this discussion...it's just that a number of us have been on this board long enough to know that some posters are deliberate pot stirrers and are here for no other reason.

Kareen
Sep. 30, 2010, 09:33 AM
I wish the Rollkurista league would stop discrediting dressage this way. Makes one start feeling embarassed about being a rider. Leave the hot myth. How did generations of FEI riders cope with TB's who are often looked at as the epitome of hot without using these dreadful and ugly shortcuts in training?
There are much more ethical ways to ensure submission. Besides submission that ends at x isn't submission but downright mental violence. The two things have nothing to do with one another and are easily distinguished even by a layperson who has never been on a horse.
One leads to a horse that is increasingly stressed and will stick to (if not flee into) the habbit of exploding, the other leads to a horse that learns to relax and trust in his rider, thus appearing less and less hot than at the beginning of its training.
It is no wonder there are fewer and fewer spectators at CDIs year after year. You guys might be happy to participate in a sport that is frowned upon by the non-involved public. I'm not. I would like to see the sport swing back towards something I'm happy to put myself behind. Right now all I feel for what's going on is embarassment. Whether or not Parzival bit his tongue because of the way he is ridden doesn't really matter. The image problem dressage is suffering with at this time has nothing to do with it.

ridgeback's openly admitted statement about bute really did it for me. What else need be said? When winning is put over the horses' soundness like this we don't even have to discuss training methods because anything could be legalized. Probably would mean the end of WEG, TV coverage for dressage shows and a rightly intervention from the animal welfare front but hey, at least we can squeeze the max out of our horses without interfering with our own rules.

Great...

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 09:36 AM
I don't think anyone was accusing you or others of not knowing enough to have this discussion...

On this, my dear, I have to disagree - see mickeydoodle's post on my posting about my experience with the school horse - it was extremely unkind and condescending, as were siegi's, sabine's and ridgeback's.

I'm a broken old lady with severe anxiety *laughing* Almost gave up on horses completely after 25 years of riding due to a few falls that had me seriously thinking the afterlife was coming up soon. Before *that* I was a serious competitor and trainer, but in different disciplines :) So I do know a thing or two, but competition dressage - pure competition dressage is relatively new to me :)

I do think the question of whether it's "kind" or not is still up in the air, and whether, if these horses are so difficult to handle and ride, we are doing the right thing by propagating them.

It's sort of in my mind similar to the QH halter horse issue - the horses win at Halter competitions, but they aren't good for anything else (including riding) because of the freaky conformation that they breed in order to win.

Maybe my eye will change, maybe my personality will change, but I enjoy the Baroque-style horses much more typically than the newer warmbloods (with the exception of Mistral...he has my heart). I preferred the older style - had quite a few of the heavier ones too...must be a misplaced pony thing because I never got ponies when I was a kid (started out on horses :) )

Thank you for your words, the explanations are much more helpful.

siegi b.
Sep. 30, 2010, 09:41 AM
Kareen - can you look at Edward Gal and Totilas and say that the horse doesn't trust his rider?

esdressage
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:13 AM
Kareen - can you look at Edward Gal and Totilas and say that the horse doesn't trust his rider?

I just posted a link to the video of their grand prix special and it's STUNNING how united they look, like a single being that is art and athleticism and beauty all rolled into one. I'm amazed. And there is a definite absence of tension… just Totilas seeming thrilled to perform and Edward a lovely rider.

Fixerupper
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:16 AM
.......a sport that is frowned upon by the non-involved public.........
The image problem dressage is suffering with at this time.


I would like to point out that the 'image problem' is being deliberately conjured up by Animal Rights Types (I won't say the P... word again!) who take things like a tongue over the bit or a bitten tongue...that experienced horse people should comprehend... and convince the 'non-involved public' that some bizarre form of abuse is being perpetrated!

I understand from previous posts that you seem to have the misfortune to have been involved with some unscrupulous local horse people....
However it is unfair to judge the entire sport and all other horse people by that experience...

No one says you have to love Totilas or Parzival's way of going....but speculating that they are that way because they have been abused is just plain ridiculous!!!

MLK1
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:22 AM
Quote by Suzy:

"Whether or not you agree with rollkur is entirely beside the point because not all of these riders are using that technique. Since a number of you have mentioned Reiner Klimke and Biotop, I will use them as an example. Biotop had a reputation for being an extremely hot and difficult horse. Klimke did not train using rollkur. Klimke enjoyed some successes with Biotop, but Biotop was not reliable because of his hot nature. However, in spite of Biotop’s inconsistency and aberrant (in some instances) behavior, none of you are attacking Klimke and accusing him of making his horse “anxious” or “lacking confidence” because of the training methods used. But Adelinde is being skewered when none of us know the facts for absolute sure. Meanwhile, Parzival had been getting fantastic scores right up to the point of his elimination. Doesn’t anyone see the hypocrisy here?"

Suzy there it no hypocrisy here, you answered your own question. No one is accusing Klimke because as you said he had some success with Biotop but obviously had the compassion and horsemanship to realize that for the well being of the horse it was not worth going to extreme measures (ie Rollkur) just in order to try to make him a top horse. THAT is what made him such a great person and rider. ;)

ASBnTX
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:28 AM
I've been following this thread with interest...lots to learn here and am glad that the snark has stayed out of the discussion (for the most part).
I think it's very interesting that breeders have created these fantastically amazing horses that are capable of such brilliance, but have maybe also created the need for such training techniques in the process. The evolution of the horses and the sport is fascinating.
I do think that most of us can't conceive of the need for RK to exist because we would never require such training on our average AA horses. To my eye it looks horrid, but I really can't condemn others until I've walked a mile in their shoes.

BaroquePony
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:52 AM
My guess would be that the real reason that Adelinde is being skewered has to do as much with the warm-up photos of a horse with it's neck cranked to it's chest with full force on the curb as well as the bradoon, mouth gaping open, with a very tightly cranked crank noseband.

Apparently that now is the excepted new *suppling* exercise for the New Age Dressage Horse.

Red Barn
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:52 AM
I quit posting on this board a few years ago (largely because of the sheer obnoxiousness of the pro-rolkur faction, actually) but I really have to agree with this statement from way back on Page 1:

. . . If you so hate international competitive dressage and the way those winning in it train, why are you usually the first group to search out the videos, pictures, and results. Why do you even want to watch stuff you don't like. You already know the riders, and what you are going to see. Is it just another opportunity to beat an old subject to death? I don't get it.

The people supporting competitive dressage as it exists today are sneering and churlish because they can be. They've won the war and they know it. Isn't that fairly obvious by now?

Blue tongues, bleeding mouths - did the anti-rolkur faction actually need to see these things to conclude that the new standards have nothing to do with old standards? Good grief. This IS their sport, and no amount of kvetching will change that - no matter how well-meaning.

Every time you attend the Games or buy the videos or subscribe to a dressage magazine you implicitly approve of the standards at the upper levels. Every single time. Complaining about those standards online does not cancel out the money you've spent in some magikal way. It just doesn't.

So if people aren't ready to put their money where their mouths are and boycott this sh!t, they best just give in and suck it up. This is capitalism, people, and you will not win.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:55 AM
I do think the question of whether it's "kind" or not is still up in the air, and whether, if these horses are so difficult to handle and ride, we are doing the right thing by propagating them.

Maybe my eye will change, maybe my personality will change, but I enjoy the Baroque-style horses much more typically than the newer warmbloods (with the exception of Mistral...he has my heart). I preferred the older style - had quite a few of the heavier ones too...must be a misplaced pony thing because I never got ponies when I was a kid (started out on horses :) )



I think it will be a matter of time before we know whether or not rollkur is "kind." In the meantime, do what is right for you and your horse based on what you already know and glean in the training process. At least you will know that you always had the horse's wellbeing in mind. Who knows, maybe it will be shown that rollkur is kinder than more conventional training techniques. It just hasn't been proven one way or another.

Regarding propagating these super horses--there are enough super riders out there who want these horses and have the skill to truly enjoy them. In fact, it appears that the demand is still greater than the supply. The only way I would object to perpetuating the breeding of these horses would be if weaknesses were bred into them like we have seen in dogs (and some breeds of horses, but I'm not going there because my flame suit is at the cleaners).

As you say in your last paragraph, you have a preference for the Baroque-style horses, and that's great. They are gaining a lot of popularity due to their dispositions and comfortable gaits. However, most top COMPETITION (just want to be clear :) ) riders prefer the modern warmbloods. But this doesn't mean the two cannot coexist harmoniously. As I get older, I am thinking that my next horse may be an Andalusian or Lusitano--smaller with nice, comfy gaits and able to excel in the collected work. For now, I am still really enjoying my warmblood. And, as a spectator at competitions, I still prefer them for their ground covering gaits. When spectating demonstrations, the baroque horses are very appealing. Again, it's personal preference. One is not inherently better than the other; just different.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:02 AM
Blue tongues, bleeding mouths -

Red Barn, I'm neither pro nor anti-rollkur, but it's comments like the above that I find really offensive and alarming. We have seen ONE video of the so-called blue tongue and ONE incident of a bleeding mouth. And, we still do not know the facts behind either.

These are TWO (a total of TWO) incidents out of many THOUSANDS of rides in the competition ring and warmup area--a miniscule percentage of the whole. Both incidents do deserve to be studied to determine what was going on. No argument from me on that count. But, to publicize again and again and again two such stories leads people to believe that MOST dressage riders engage in horribly abusive practices, and it just ain't so.

horsefaerie
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:08 AM
Red Barn hits the nail on the head.

AND I bought my last intl dressage video in 1996. I have never liked Anky and likely never will.

I find RK reprehensible. Of course I have witnessed the "training techniques" of people whose faces grace the cover of mags and I can assure you there is a lot of ignorance at the top, or total lack of concern how many horses they will ride into the ground and breakdown on their trip there.

The same goes of AA's who can.

I never had the money to be very competitive altho I could certainly teach and train. I would have needed to drop out if these were the people I was competing against anyway.

I never want to hear another dressage rider looking down their noses at western riders tying heads to girths or saddlebred folks soring for the big lick. We are right there with them now.

MLD
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:17 AM
I've been following this thread with interest...lots to learn here and am glad that the snark has stayed out of the discussion (for the most part).
I think it's very interesting that breeders have created these fantastically amazing horses that are capable of such brilliance, but have maybe also created the need for such training techniques in the process. The evolution of the horses and the sport is fascinating.
I do think that most of us can't conceive of the need for RK to exist because we would never require such training on our average AA horses. To my eye it looks horrid, but I really can't condemn others until I've walked a mile in their shoes.

BRAVO!!! Excellent post. I like the part about the evolution of the horse the most. The evolution of the horse can be applied to many arguments that exist today in the horse world. Everything that exist on the earth goes through evolution and everything else learns to adapt to it in it's new form. That adaptation may not always be for the better, but it is necessary in most cases. As time goes on, better methods are learned to replace the previous "not always for the better" methods. Give dressage a few years, my guess is rolkur will be a thing of the past and replaced with something else and the folks here at COTH that love to sit around and argue will be on to new topics.

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:20 AM
EH, I'm sorry - I was actually talking about LDR, not her riding with her shoulders behind her heels for most of this thread. Those two things were separate issues, and you're right, I should have treated them as such.

So, Sabine, Ridgeback and Seigi all seem to be pointing to the fact that RK/LDR is used for submission, and NOT for gymnasticizing the horse. EH and Anky spoke of it being equine yoga, so which is it?

No not saying that at all. There are clearly pics on that site that show Isabell's horse spooking at the big plant object in the middle of the ring. I've seen these guys ride in person and and just like if you are riding classical or LDR/rolllkur sometimes they are more difficult and sometimes they need tougher correction. I think it's clear that these horses are doing well in the ring and rewarded by every judge they have ever shown under so maybe you guys should just worry about your riding ability.

Red Barn
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:23 AM
Red Barn, I'm neither pro nor anti-rollkur, but it's comments like the above that I find really offensive and alarming. We have seen ONE video of the so-called blue tongue and ONE incident of a bleeding mouth. And, we still do not know the facts behind either.

That's right, Suzy. That's why I said they were irrelevant. Didn't I make that sufficiently clear?

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:24 AM
HF and Red Barn, you seem to be making the assumption that ALL international dressage riders use rollkur, and that is not true. A number of the non-RK crowd is enjoying success at the highest levels.

Money certainly helps in getting to the top, but it is no guarantee. You better have the talent to go with it, or you won't be giving Edward Gal or Laura Bechtolsheimer any reason to check their rearview mirrors. ;) I can think of numerous very wealthy people who have the best trainers and the best horses and really haven't achieved much--other than having fun, and to me, that's fine, too, but it does underscore that one's personal wealth is NOT the deciding factor. I can call to mind two well-known riders who had no money but a lot of talent and drive and made their way to the top with those two assets. Other people will supply the means if you supply the talent and perseverance.

Edited to add...um, no Red Barn, you didn't. ;)

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:27 AM
I wish the Rollkurista league would stop discrediting dressage this way. Makes one start feeling embarassed about being a rider. Leave the hot myth. How did generations of FEI riders cope with TB's who are often looked at as the epitome of hot without using these dreadful and ugly shortcuts in training?
There are much more ethical ways to ensure submission. Besides submission that ends at x isn't submission but downright mental violence. The two things have nothing to do with one another and are easily distinguished even by a layperson who has never been on a horse.
One leads to a horse that is increasingly stressed and will stick to (if not flee into) the habbit of exploding, the other leads to a horse that learns to relax and trust in his rider, thus appearing less and less hot than at the beginning of its training.
It is no wonder there are fewer and fewer spectators at CDIs year after year. You guys might be happy to participate in a sport that is frowned upon by the non-involved public. I'm not. I would like to see the sport swing back towards something I'm happy to put myself behind. Right now all I feel for what's going on is embarassment. Whether or not Parzival bit his tongue because of the way he is ridden doesn't really matter. The image problem dressage is suffering with at this time has nothing to do with it.

ridgeback's openly admitted statement about bute really did it for me. What else need be said? When winning is put over the horses' soundness like this we don't even have to discuss training methods because anything could be legalized. Probably would mean the end of WEG, TV coverage for dressage shows and a rightly intervention from the animal welfare front but hey, at least we can squeeze the max out of our horses without interfering with our own rules.

Great...

For the LOVE OF GOD Kareen get over yourself. A little bute give me a BREAK..it's like a person taking advil I have no problem making a horse a tad more comfortable. I'm so sick of of the PETA extreme views. I've said several times they need to have very strict guidelines but what we ask these horses to do rather it's classical or ldr/rollkur or jumping it is inhumane not to at least give them what the human riders are allowed to take. I'm not talking about taking a lame horse and making it sound to show I'm talking about normal aches and pains of a normal athlete. I was at the vet seminar last friday and Dr. Allen Kent talked about bute and the differences in the countries attitudes..I was shocked and appalled that much of Europe would eat a horse.

I appreciate there are some reasonable people on this board that may not agree with each other but I have no use for people that see everything in black and white... Sorry life is all shades of grey.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:29 AM
I never want to hear another dressage rider looking down their noses at western riders tying heads to girths or saddlebred folks soring for the big lick. We are right there with them now.

Except of course that there is no evidence whatsoever that there is any harm being done by the top riders using LDR. You opponents all keep forgetting that--

That's why I say it is a total WITCH HUNT. You are asking sucessful people whose methods you don't like the look of to prove that they are not practicing witchcraft. Who needs evidence that witchcraft even exists? Good grief; it's like the dark ages. :no:

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:31 AM
I think it's clear that these horses are doing well in the ring and rewarded by every judge they have ever shown under so maybe you guys should just worry about your riding ability.

I don't really agree with the other conclusions that you've come to, based on the viewing of Isabell Werth's entire warmup ride (man, that must have been a heckuva spook - lasted for 10 whole minutes).

BUT

I really disagree with this.

Here's the reason - I've seen enough of other disciplines to know that judging can continually reward the wrong things, to the detriment of the horse, the discipline, and the sport. Witness western pleasure peanut rollers, doped up LTD hunters, big lick TWH and I'm sure there are others (these are just those that I have witnessed).

The problem is that it continues to move the whole sport away from what is useful, true and correct. Pretty soon, it's not just the few isolated cases of those freaky horses - it's everyone doing exactly what they have to to make things look like the winning ride - not necessarily accepting the fact that a particular horse that goes like that is just a freaky weirdo, and that others should not.

It's putting human aspiration above the good of the horse and the sport. It's short term thinking, and it's disappointing to me.

I still need to noodle through how I absolutely feel about it, but this is my gut speaking here - learn from the other disciplines and don't do what they do - which is to reward the impure, the not useful, and the greed to the detriment of the horse, ultimately the rider, and the sport.

mzpeepers
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:34 AM
True that...a bunch folks that never sat on a real horse...mostly because they would have been too scared of it...LOL!This is laughable. And your experience is....what? I see no records of your accomplishments anywhere, save for a mildly low score at an open show in which you weren't even riding the horse but are merely mentioned as the owner.
Does that mean you're riding a fake horse? Or do you ride at all? :lol::lol::lol:

A "real horse" is one who is happy to do his job. Call me a dreamer but I was under the impression that dressage was a tool to accomplish a partnership not a was to make a horse do things by way of coercion.

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:34 AM
I don't really agree with the other conclusions that you've come to, based on the viewing of Isabell Werth's entire warmup ride (man, that must have been a heckuva spook - lasted for 10 whole minutes).

BUT

I really disagree with this.

Here's the reason - I've seen enough of other disciplines to know that judging can continually reward the wrong things, to the detriment of the horse, the discipline, and the sport. Witness western pleasure peanut rollers, doped up LTD hunters, big lick TWH and I'm sure there are others (these are just those that I have witnessed).

The problem is that it continues to move the whole sport away from what is useful, true and correct. Pretty soon, it's not just the few isolated cases of those freaky horses - it's everyone doing exactly what they have to to make things look like the winning ride - not necessarily accepting the fact that a particular horse that goes like that is just a freaky weirdo, and that others should not.

It's putting human aspiration above the good of the horse and the sport. It's short term thinking, and it's disappointing to me.

I still need to noodle through how I absolutely feel about it, but this is my gut speaking here - learn from the other disciplines and don't do what they do - which is to reward the impure, the not useful, and the greed to the detriment of the horse, ultimately the rider, and the sport.


I was talking about the pictures I think I stated that...

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:39 AM
This is laughable. And your experience is....what? I see no records of your accomplishments anywhere, save for a mildly low score at an open show in which you weren't even riding the horse but are merely mentioned as the owner.
Does that mean you're riding a fake horse? Or do you ride at all? :lol::lol::lol:

A "real horse" is one who is happy to do his job. Call me a dreamer but I was under the impression that dressage was a tool to accomplish a partnership not a was to make a horse do things by way of coercion.

If you are quoting Sabine she has her silver medal for dressage and she got that in Germany!!!!

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:40 AM
Kareen, Without knowing it, you explained the reason that people in the past and today can deal with the hotter horses—they are FEI riders. And, not FEI riders riding schoolmasters trained by masters; they ARE the masters who actually create the schoolmasters.

About stress--the very nature of competition is that it is stressful; for horse AND rider. Some cope better than others, and it does not necessarily correlate with the training method used. Horses are every bit as individual as humans—some are naturally more nervous and fearful than others. Going back to Biotop as an example, why isn’t anyone tearing Klimke apart for that horse’s behavior? He had some seriously bad rides. So, was it Klimke’s poor training methods or the horse’s inherent disposition?

Agree with Ridgeback regarding drugs. Drugs should not be used to hide problems, but IMO it’s an unkindness not to provide relief in the form of Bute for minor aches and pains. That’s the humane thing to do. If people abuse the right to use bute (use too much or start using stronger drugs), then suspend them for competition for at least a year or whatever it takes.

Finally, there are probably a number of reasons for low attendance at the CDIs. For me, it’s just too expensive and time consuming. I’d rather spend my money on lessons or competing my own horse rather than watching. Non horsepeople don’t get much enjoyment from it, so, in my case, I’d be on my own. Finally, for the past few years, the economy worldwide has been horrible. For me (and so many others), it would be fiscally irresponsible to spectate at a CDI.

Red Barn
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:43 AM
HF and Red Barn, you seem to be making the assumption that ALL international dressage riders use rollkur, and that is not true.

Not at all. I'm pointing out that it's ridiculous to financially support an industry in which you believe an abusive practice is regularly rewarded, and then complain about it after the fact.

The specific persons involved are as irrelevant as the blue tongue and the bloody mouth. I'm talking about a systemic issue here.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 11:55 AM
Not at all. I'm pointing out that it's ridiculous to financially support an industry in which you believe an abusive practice is regularly rewarded, and then complain about it after the fact.



Got it and agree about not supporting an industry that is such anathema to a person. I know that abusive practices do go on and would like them stopped as much as the next person. However, these are the animals and the sport that I am passionate about, and I intend to stay involved.

mzpeepers
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:02 PM
If you are quoting Sabine she has her silver medal for dressage and she got that in Germany!!!!

A silver medal for what? Finishing a riding school program? 'Cuz I'm pretty sure the award system there is a bit different than here......but, hey, I could be wrong, that's why I asked a question

netg
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:04 PM
I really appreciate that most of this thread has stayed respectful!


I really appreciate reading the perspectives of those who are pro-rollkur or pro-ldr, which were given in a logical way here. I don't like it because of the feeling it gives me in my gut, not logic, and I hope we do have peer reviewed, respected studies showing whether or not it's harmful to a horse in the future.

For me, overall, I prefer the longer outline and style we see from a horse like Alf over the shape of Totilas. That's completely based upon personal preference, not based upon standards and performance (though both performed beautifully from what my inexpert eyes could tell, and sure as shootin' the judges seemed to agree.)

Regardless of training method (and I don't think we know that he's using rollkur now, do we?), Edward Gal gets the most seamless and perfect transitions I have ever seen. Just stunning how effortlessly the pair flows from one movement to another. The repeated "am I trotting, am I passaging, am I medium trotting, working trotting, what am I doing?" mistakes Totilas made in some of his earlier work seem to be just about ironed out, and I'm not good enough to see mistakes in his performances anymore. He sure looks happy enough to do what is asked!

Does that mean if I were good enough to reach that level I'd be willing to use rollkur if that were what it took to reach that type of performance? I think no, but don't know for sure.

I'm actually thrilled to see Toto and Alf both scoring well as they have different styles, yet were both rewarded for what I assume is correct work. (Again, stressing that I'm not trained or good enough to verify how correct it was.) It's great to me to see that different training options are rewarded based upon performance, even with different results in regards to the current "style" out there.

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:10 PM
A silver medal for what? Finishing a riding school program? 'Cuz I'm pretty sure the award system there is a bit different than here......but, hey, I could be wrong, that's why I asked a question

Yes you are right there system is different...MUCH HARDER. Catherine Haddad received her gold medal and she had to win so many GP and when I looked what they had to do in Germany to get their medals compared to the USDF rules it was laughable.

Aelphabae
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:24 PM
The original meaning of the word is french, to prepare, to train. That is a very simple way of putting it, but it would seem that many of these horses are ill prepared. If they are so hot that it requires abusive training methods in order to subdue them to the point of manageability I cannot see how they are genuinely prepared.

Let's also look at the famous words of the French Cavalry Officer L'Hotte - "calm, forward, straight, light"
The first element is calm - the mind does not learn at its best when it is not calm. These horses have energy going forwards but are they straight? And in the end there is no element of lightness.

When I see many of the upper level riders I see just that - riders. They are not trainers, they are not teachers. I think of teachers I have encountered throughout my own education who were highly intelligent but did not know how to communicate their knowledge to their students and instead resorted to put downs, harassment, embarrassment and whatever else they could find to fill in the gap and take the attention off their own lack of skills in teaching.

I also believe that those who are pro-rollkur function in a similar manner. They are riders but not necessarily effective teachers. The reason I deduce this is that when you are a true teacher you are also constantly learning from your students - from your horses. I don't see any learning going on in this direction. The horse is merely there to be submissive and obedient, not to give valuable feedback.

And as regards competition, I view it in the light that it is not Dressage. Even clinging to the words "Classical Dressage" can be tricky as many claim to be using it because it is popular to do so. The evidence of your capabilities as a rider/trainer lie solely in the horse. Not in some arbitrary score given by a judge. And does anyone else remember being told that there are no winners in Dressage competitions because you are simply competing against yourself? That the score is only to grade how you are working at that particular level, and not something to compare to the other riders. Just curious. :)

And a side note. I have ridden horses who were trained using Rollkur. I have also retrained horses who were trained in this way. Consistently there are giant gaps in their training and they had the mental faculties of a child. They were nervous and distrustful of the rider's intentions. There are reasons why crank nosebands came into fashion along with more disturbing training methods. Rollkured horses have such nervous mouths that without these kinds of nosebands they are such busy bodies and impossible to control through the reins with these riding methods.
All of the horses that I have worked with like this, their owners consistently made mention that they were extraordinarily hot horses, sensitive, etc. That they needed very talented and tactful riders to manage them. One of the original horses I retrained from Rollkur had a regular habit of dumping riders. First ride I had on her she took to rearing straight up. This was combined with a horse who knew only to rush forward into unyielding hands and had only learned to be controlled through force. None of her riders had ever connected with her brain. I'm happy to report that this same mare that was impossible to be ridden by beginners and even most talented riders, is owned and lovingly ridden by a total amateur who isn't even a dressage rider. She's taken out on trails, hacked around on and is the new schoolmaster for this woman to learn dressage on for the first time. Once she realized that I wasn't there to bully her around and she began actually interacting with me on a mental level the rest fell into place. But getting her to stop checking out mentally was what took the longest. That is what always takes the longest on these horses ridden in rollkur or hyperflexion, or LDR however you want to call it. That is why it is abusive - these horses take on the habits of a person who has been abused. Withdrawn and non-responsive mixed with habits of overreacting and blowing up.

The excuse of the hot temperaments of these horses is old and ineffectual. The problem always lies with the rider. Some horses take longer to develop than others because they are living breathing beings, which can be a problem if you wish to be competing an 8 year old at Grand Prix...

Just some thoughts.

princessfluffybritches
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:39 PM
Aelphabae, I agree with you whole-heartedly.

ZiggyStardust
Sep. 30, 2010, 12:40 PM
Ignorance is so frustrating... You are right Sabine. ;)


True that...a bunch folks that never sat on a real horse...mostly because they would have been too scared of it...LOL! not worth argueing...not in the least worth it...


Sorry, you two are the ones displaying ignorance. You have no knowledge of what most people here have or haven't done in their riding experience. I actually have "sat on" a horse short-listed for the Olympics in eventing. Have you? Those horses should arguably be even more hot because they are so fit. He was even known to be a naughty monkey, yet I survived and I didn't even yank his nose to his chest, amazing!

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:02 PM
And does anyone else remember being told that there are no winners in Dressage competitions because you are simply competing against yourself? That the score is only to grade how you are working at that particular level, and not something to compare to the other riders. Just curious. :)



I have no idea who coined that phrase about competing against yourself, but I think it's just plain silly. In all honesty, how many of you who compete are out there just “to compete against yourself?” I compete against myself every day, at home, in my training. I don’t need to trailer to another location at great expense to "compete against myself." I’d like to know who came up with this strange notion of competing against oneself in an actual competition setting. Sure, we want to do better than the time before, but we also want to do better than the other competitors in our test. At least I do. Otherwise, I’ll save myself a lot of money and effort and stay home.

Also, dressage judging is so incredibly subjective that the scores really aren’t that revealing unless you are always being judged by the same person. I think everyone on this board who has ridden in enough competitions can concur at the wild discrepancies in scores. I’ve ridden tests that I was very proud of and received glowing comments from my trainer but scored in the mid 60s. Then, I’ve ridden tests that my trainer and I agreed were mediocre, but they scored in the low 70s. However, when I looked at how I placed compared to other riders that I had the chance to watch, the placings seemed correct.

The very bottomline for me though has nothing to do with competition since I spend far more time outside the competition arena than inside--as does everyone else. For me, I want a horse that is really fun to ride; one that I can't wait to get home to each day so that I can work on perfecting the things he knows or introducing something new.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:08 PM
In all honesty, how many of you who compete are out there just “to compete against yourself?” I compete against myself every day, at home, in my training. I don’t need to trailer to another location at great expense to do so. I’d like to know who came up with this strange notion of competing against oneself in an actual competition setting. Sure, we want to do better than the time before, but we also want to do better than the other competitors in our test. At least I do. Otherwise, I’ll save myself a lot of money and effort and stay home.

This is really interesting because I also was raised on "it's a competition against yourself" and it would seem that the scoring in dressage *should* be more conducive to that. The movements should be scored against ideal, rather than against each other (as in the hunterland, where it is the best that day that wins - but that doesn't mean you have a gnats chance in a hurricane of being in the same placings in another show with different horses).

If I choose to compete, it's so that someone other than myself can judge how the horse and I are progressing, not so that I can beat the other competitors. If I get a <insert very very low percentage here because I don't want to offend anyone who has had a bad day>% and had a terrible ride, I will be no happier knowing that I beat out others.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:22 PM
In the USDF judges programs, the participants ARE taught to judge against a standard, and I think many succeed in doing just that.

From a purely practical standpoint, I don’t know how a judge could remember after 4 or 5 tests what score he gave an earlier competitor for a particular movement. This is one of the reasons that scoring to a standard is desirable. Dressage is not like a hunter hack class in which you see all the competitors in the ring at one time and are comparing them to each other—intentionally or not!

OneGray, regarding your last comment…I also would not be happy winning with a low score UNLESS the judge had a reputation for being extremely stingy AND I saw rides in the test that I admired. Winning isn’t meaningful to me unless I come away feeling that my horse and I did our very best in that particular test and that there were other competitors who rode tests that I admired. Otherwise, the victory is hollow.

grayarabpony
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:25 PM
I don't really agree with the other conclusions that you've come to, based on the viewing of Isabell Werth's entire warmup ride (man, that must have been a heckuva spook - lasted for 10 whole minutes).

BUT

I really disagree with this.

Here's the reason - I've seen enough of other disciplines to know that judging can continually reward the wrong things, to the detriment of the horse, the discipline, and the sport. Witness western pleasure peanut rollers, doped up LTD hunters, big lick TWH and I'm sure there are others (these are just those that I have witnessed).

The problem is that it continues to move the whole sport away from what is useful, true and correct. Pretty soon, it's not just the few isolated cases of those freaky horses - it's everyone doing exactly what they have to to make things look like the winning ride - not necessarily accepting the fact that a particular horse that goes like that is just a freaky weirdo, and that others should not.

It's putting human aspiration above the good of the horse and the sport. It's short term thinking, and it's disappointing to me.

I still need to noodle through how I absolutely feel about it, but this is my gut speaking here - learn from the other disciplines and don't do what they do - which is to reward the impure, the not useful, and the greed to the detriment of the horse, ultimately the rider, and the sport.

Well said.

As an addendum, having such thoughts and feelings doesn't mean that one hates the sport. There is a lot of beautiful riding out there, and Laura's rides were inspirational.

Go Fish
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:45 PM
I just posted a link to the video of their grand prix special and it's STUNNING how united they look, like a single being that is art and athleticism and beauty all rolled into one. I'm amazed. And there is a definite absence of tension… just Totilas seeming thrilled to perform and Edward a lovely rider.

When I watch video of Totilas, I don't notice Edward at all. He just fades into the background...just as it should be.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:52 PM
Sorry, you two are the ones displaying ignorance. You have no knowledge of what most people here have or haven't done in their riding experience. I actually have "sat on" a horse short-listed for the Olympics in eventing. Have you? Those horses should arguably be even more hot because they are so fit. He was even known to be a naughty monkey, yet I survived and I didn't even yank his nose to his chest, amazing!

Hey ridgeback and Sabine, I think you were just called "ignorant sl*ts!" :lol:

And Ziggy, I can one-up you. I did more than just sit on a famous horse. I rode the horse that was the U.S. reserve for the dressage team for the 1996 Olympics for three days! ;)

siegi b.
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:58 PM
Stated by OneGrayPony .... "The problem is that it continues to move the whole sport away from what is useful, true and correct. Pretty soon, it's not just the few isolated cases of those freaky horses - it's everyone doing exactly what they have to to make things look like the winning ride - not necessarily accepting the fact that a particular horse that goes like that is just a freaky weirdo, and that others should not."

Guess there are more and more "freaky weirdos" out there.... just look at Totilas, Mistral Horjis, Parcival, Warum Nicht, etc. etc. :)

Is it so difficult to understand that there is a continuos effort being made to breed better and better athletes - just like human athletes have improved their performances compared to 40 years ago....?

Why go back to some rules that were established when riders and trainers did not have the best understanding of a horse's physiology nor really cared that much?

And as much as I hate to say bad things about the departed, you all really need to get over Dr. Klimke as your knight in shining armor as far as "correct" dressage training is concerned. I grew up in Germany when he was the big name in dressage and knew quite a few people that apprenticed with him. If the internet and Youtube had been in existence then, Dr. Klimke would have been the subject of a much bigger witch hunt than any RK/LDR or whatever it is that makes you mad. So please, find another example for your discussions!

millerra
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:59 PM
Well, I was going to stay away but just had one thought to add.

I WISH my horses had the faculties of a child. Then perhaps I could verbally reason w/ them and even tell them to poop in the potty and flush. Heck, I'd even settle for the wheelbarrow.

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:59 PM
Sorry, you two are the ones displaying ignorance. You have no knowledge of what most people here have or haven't done in their riding experience. I actually have "sat on" a horse short-listed for the Olympics in eventing. Have you? Those horses should arguably be even more hot because they are so fit. He was even known to be a naughty monkey, yet I survived and I didn't even yank his nose to his chest, amazing!

Hey Ziggy yes I have:) grateful by the way! Oh I'm sorry but most on this board are novice just look at the threads that are started. Hey nothing wrong with that you got to start somewhere:)

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:02 PM
Hey ridgeback and Sabine, I think you were just called "ignorant sl*ts!" :lol:

And Ziggy, I can one-up you. I did more than just sit on a famous horse. I rode the horse that was the U.S. reserve for the dressage team for the 1996 Olympics for three days! ;)

I"m missing the sl*ts part but hey no worries:D I almost said the same thing..."I did more than just sit on a ...." LOL

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:06 PM
And as much as I hate to say bad things about the departed, you all really need to get over Dr. Klimke as your knight in shining armor as far as "correct" dressage training is concerned.

Who - me? You started out with my quote, and then proceeded to say this - I never said Dr. Klimke nor any other equestrian was a knight in shining armor. *looks around puzzled*

I understand what the breeding is going for - and I also understand that I do not agree with it. Can you understand that?

Mistral does not move as Totilas does. There's a definite difference there.

I have the same problem with hunters - I do not agree with how they are being bred today. Most could not keep up on the hunt field, which was the entire purpose of the ring.

*shrug*

And ridgeback, a novice to the sport of competitive dressage is not necessarily a novice to horsemanship. *smile* You're so sweet to say things like that, but you damage your own reputation when you do.

Kareen
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:16 PM
Which reputation? Sorry but someone who openly advocates it is ok to 'just give a little bute' to a competing horse is - well just inacceptable. Bute of all antiinflammatory drugs has the biggest potential to harm the horse. The only reason it is still used to massively is because it's cheap. If a horse needs it because it is otherwise painfull during work it needs to keep out of competition. No way around that no matter how much sugarcoating you put around this simple fact.
Interesting how it is ok to compare equines to human athletes when it is convenient for ridgeback whereas anyone else who claims something is inhumane needs to get their facts straight because horses aren't humans *lol*.
The argument is moving in circles and I still feel ashamed for statements like this.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:18 PM
I have the same problem with hunters - I do not agree with how they are being bred today. Most could not keep up on the hunt field, which was the entire purpose of the ring.



I would suggest that the problem is not with the horses but rather with your own interpretation of what they should be. There aren't that many opportunities to hunt anymore--it's been outlawed in some places. And, a lot of people enjoy going over a course of 8-10 (or however many fences) rather than spending an hour or more, traversing sometimes bad terrain with the goal of killing a fox (Hey PETA!). Maybe the sport should be renamed to better reflect what it has evolved to be. And maybe there should be competitions in which ONLY horses that are hunted on a regular basis can compete. My guess is those shows would not be heavily subscribed.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:21 PM
Well, I was going to stay away but just had one thought to add.

I WISH my horses had the faculties of a child. Then perhaps I could verbally reason w/ them and even tell them to poop in the potty and flush. Heck, I'd even settle for the wheelbarrow.

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.

You need to set your sights higher, Millera. I want mine to have at least the faculties of a teenager (but without the attitude!) so that they can do windows, clean the barn, and repair fencing.

And how astute to notice that these are RSAs! :lol:

mp
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:26 PM
I have the same problem with hunters - I do not agree with how they are being bred today. Most could not keep up on the hunt field, which was the entire purpose of the ring.

And western pleasure horses don't look like the kind a cowboy could ride into town and show off for his girlfriend. And a lot of big-time cutting and working cow horses are too fried to actually go out and work cattle on a "real" ranch. And and and ....

Good grief. I'm putting this entire forum on "ignore" until after WEG is over.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:27 PM
I would suggest that the problem is not with the horses but rather with your own interpretation of what they should be. There aren't that many opportunities to hunt anymore--it's been outlawed in some places. And, a lot of people enjoy going over a course of 8-10 (or however many fences) rather than spending an hour or more, traversing sometimes bad terrain with the goal of killing a fox (Hey PETA!). Maybe the sport should be renamed to better reflect what it has evolved to be. And maybe there should be competitions in which ONLY horses that are hunted on a regular basis can compete. My guess is those shows would not be heavily subscribed.

Not to mention the fact that they were jumping in bad footing over FIXED OBSTACLES, many wearing double bridles (which have now been exchanged for the gag or elevator bit) and leaning backward and holding on by the reins. Good thing, too because they were wearing top hats and not helmets! Of course there were not many GIRL riders in those days, and the ones that were riding were sidesaddle!

There are still fox hunts around, and there are hunter trials that DO judge real field hunters. Let's not get into how many of them are aced... :uhoh:

I'm just saying the "good ole days" aren't always what they are cracked up to be.

millerra
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:28 PM
Which reputation? Sorry but someone who openly advocates it is ok to 'just give a little bute' to a competing horse is - well just inacceptable..

Well, I guess I have to disagree with this one. I have been taught by a vet, who is a fellow eventer, that one gram of bute post-cross country and well before 12 hours+ the start of stadium is beneficial to the horse who may be just a wee bit stiff if it ran hard on xcountry. JUST like a human athlete. It won't mask anything serious and just helps w/ the stiffness. Lord knows I'm helping myself to the beer and the advil after! And I can imagine it being of benefit to an older dressage horse/schoolmaster who just worked his A-- off for someone doing 2 or 3 tests in a day and then being confined to a stall during the show w/ only the occasional handwalk.

I honestly don't know why that idea to some is so heinous... and it's definitely NOT illegal to do as I've described at USEA recognized events.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:44 PM
Thanks, Millerra. What I have learned about minor pains from my doctor and vet is that you can more quickly and effectively get past them by medicating. And medicating sooner is better than later. Whenever I've had to go in for minor procedures, the doctor always starts me on pain medication the day before. When I had a horse with KSS, the vet had me start him on bute 24 hours before his back injections. The longer we try to "bear" the pain, the tenser and stiffer we get which just leads to more discomfort.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:45 PM
Once again - a strawman. I did not say that I believed the good old days were absolutely fabulous.

I'm saying that they have strayed so far from their intended purpose for the sake of money and human greed that I don't agree with it and do not like it.

I was not saying that YOU shouldn't like it. I was saying that *I* did not like it.

My own interpretation of what they should be? Hm...that's an interesting thought. I suppose it could be like cars - I hated the Honda Element for a long time and then when all the rest of the cars became boxy, I stopped hating it.

Horses aren't cars though.

*shrug* I don't know, but you can continue to poke at me for awhile if you feel justified in doing so.

Can someone tell me whether there is something truly wrong with believing that a horse should not go that way - that hotter does not equal better necessarily and that athleticism doesn't have to equal crazy??

Why am I made to feel like the one who is off their rocker for seeing something wrong here?

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 02:50 PM
And maybe there should be competitions in which ONLY horses that are hunted on a regular basis can compete. My guess is those shows would not be heavily subscribed.

Oh - actually - this is along the same lines as I was thinking this morning (musing in the shower, where all ideas come to light) - perhaps a classical dressage society ought to split off of the USDF as has happened in the TWH industry and other industries so that people (and it's not just me) who believe that this is not quite right could compete in the way that dressage was billed to them.

ginger708
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:03 PM
Oh - actually - this is along the same lines as I was thinking this morning (musing in the shower, where all ideas come to light) - perhaps a classical dressage society ought to split off of the USDF as has happened in the TWH industry and other industries so that people (and it's not just me) who believe that this is not quite right could compete in the way that dressage was billed to them.

It would be a great day when all of the Klassical Dressage people could get together and do their own thing, and let the rest of us enjoy dressage without being portrayed and fang bearing monsters that hammer on our horses faces with crank nosebands and double bits.

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:11 PM
OneGray, I don’t think money and greed are necessarily the reasons people moved away from field hunters and into show hunters. In the days when I was doing the show hunter thing, there were virtually no opportunities to foxhunt, and I wanted to jump, but I did not want to do the jumpers—fences are too darned big! So, the show hunter route was the perfect venue for me. There certainly was no financial motivation. My experience, and that of so many friends, is that we pour tons of money into our riding and never get any of it back. My husband refers to horses as “that gray black hole that swallows all of our money and then some” or some other drivel to that effect. ;)

I don’t mean to poke you. I am just saying that there are other perspectives. Judging by the popularity of show hunters, I think a lot of other people may have gotten into it for the same or similar reasons as me.

Hotter does not necessarily equal better, and I did not mean to imply that. However, a lot of the hotter horses are better athletes/competitors. They have that extra pizzazz and, of course, the wonderfully scopey gaits. In a perfect world, horses would be extremely athletic, have pizzazz, and be quiet enough for granny to ride to the store for a carton of eggs. But that’s not the reality. It’s funny (well, not haha! Funny) that people complain about the lack of spectators at dressage competitions, but what brings spectators is the horses like Parzival and Totilas. Sort of a catch-22, huh?

As far as having shows for classical dressage...well...I bet it would not be long before that crowd started sniping about what is/is not classical. ;)

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:14 PM
Is there a reason you used a K instead of a C?

I wasn't suggesting it to be snarky - nor was I suggesting that competition dressage was horrible.

What I was saying was that perhaps those of us who feel that this isn't quite the way we'd like to be with our horses - the way we feel dressage ought to be - maybe we should just go in a different direction?

That certainly seems to be what some are suggesting here - that if I don't like what's happening, then I should just shut up. That there's no room for debate.

Okay - well if there's no room for debate, then I'd like to take my money and my business elsewhere.

Kareen
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:16 PM
So the reason that older schoolmaster isn't retired into his well deserved field to only do work he can do without the 'help' of a dose of bute here and there is exactly what? I just don't see why a horse that starts being stiff after work can't be retired. The only reason I can see is because someone is too cheap to spend money on a younger horse that is fit to do the job without mother's little helpers.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:19 PM
OneGray, I don’t think money and greed are necessarily the reasons people moved away from field hunters and into show hunters.

Oh no, suzy, I think you misunderstand me. The breeding and the showing are what changed. The standards changed for what was acceptable in the ring, as well as the types of fences and courses.

By the way - there are still lots of hunts - both traditional and drag.


As far as having shows for classical dressage...well...I bet it would not be long before that crowd started sniping about what is/is not classical.

Sniping is an interesting way to put it. I had no idea that a discussion about the techniques was viewed as sniping. Perhaps some people get a little *ahem* passionate about it - but isn't that part of the beauty of riding? That we can HAVE these discussions?

*shrug* Again, maybe it's just me. I enjoy talking about different techniques - analyzing what feels right, what feels wrong, and trying to make the sport always better, always more humane, all while keeping an eye on the history and origination of the sport itself.

That's just my perspective, and though some have been very gracious in their discussions (you included, suzy) I do not feel like others have been. On either side, really, which is a shame.

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:22 PM
Which reputation? Sorry but someone who openly advocates it is ok to 'just give a little bute' to a competing horse is - well just inacceptable. Bute of all antiinflammatory drugs has the biggest potential to harm the horse. The only reason it is still used to massively is because it's cheap. If a horse needs it because it is otherwise painfull during work it needs to keep out of competition. No way around that no matter how much sugarcoating you put around this simple fact.
Interesting how it is ok to compare equines to human athletes when it is convenient for ridgeback whereas anyone else who claims something is inhumane needs to get their facts straight because horses aren't humans *lol*.
The argument is moving in circles and I still feel ashamed for statements like this.


I have no use for your extreme views. Good thing you have no power. I believe it is inhumane to not give a horse a small dose of an anti imflammatory. Grey Kareen Grey..:lol:;)

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:23 PM
So the reason that older schoolmaster isn't retired into his well deserved field to only do work he can do without the 'help' of a dose of bute here and there is exactly what? I just don't see why a horse that starts being stiff after work can't be retired. The only reason I can see is because someone is too cheap to spend money on a younger horse that is fit to do the job without mother's little helpers.

Man I'd hate to be your elderly parents:lol:

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:25 PM
Oh no, suzy, I think you misunderstand me. The breeding and the showing are what changed. The standards changed for what was acceptable in the ring, as well as the types of fences and courses.


Sniping is an interesting way to put it. I had no idea that a discussion about the techniques was viewed as sniping. Perhaps some people get a little *ahem* passionate about it - but isn't that part of the beauty of riding? That we can HAVE these discussions?

*shrug* Again, maybe it's just me. I enjoy talking about different techniques - analyzing what feels right, what feels wrong, and trying to make the sport always better, always more humane, all while keeping an eye on the history and origination of the sport itself.



I see. I had misunderstood about the money thing. Although I wonder if breeding really is all that profitable...

I should have put a ;) next to "sniping" because I did mean that somewhat jokingly. Discussing different techniques can be valuable. You had the disadvantage of coming onto this forum not knowing the history of the LDR/rollkur (ahem) discussions. They've gotten pretty heated, and a lot of people are just plain tired of the topic.

Kareen, I wasn't talking about just old horses when it comes to bute. Younger horses get sore, too, and can benefit from a gram of bute after a hard workout or before a medical procedure as I described in another post. Also, not everyone has the financial luxury of being able to retire a horse. Some people have the choice of continuing to use an older horse as a school horse or for hippotherapy or to put it down. It's a sad choice, but one that some people are forced to face. And I won't cast stones at people making either choice.

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:34 PM
You see it in every sport.

"If they didn't have to hobble around I'd win the Western Pleasure."

"If they didn't have such a tight course I'd win the level () jumpers."

"If they didn't want the horses half dead I'd win the hunters."

"If they didn't want horses rolkured into submission I'd win dressage."

The judges are blind, my horse is special and I ride him far better than those other top competitors.

ginger708
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:34 PM
The K is use in reference ala Kafka Amerka a satire of the american dream. The idealism of dressage by Classical enthusiasts is guided by the same romanticism that guided the american dream in Kafka's time. It is also humorous that Kafka's interpretation of America came from books, pictures and second hand accounts. See any correlation here? Kafka saw flaws in the America of his time and Classical enthusiast finds flaws in the dressage of their time. Kafka wrote books, Classical enthusiasts tap keyboards.

The Klassical riders will bash at any opportunity they are the first to yell abuse and always seem to have a better way to solve a training problem. They will take a simple accident and turn it in to a controversy just so they can start another rollkur thread.

I myself have been watching the FEI TV, videos on demand and have been enjoying all of the rides.

AZ Native
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:37 PM
My guess would be that the real reason that Adelinde is being skewered has to do as much with the warm-up photos of a horse with it's neck cranked to it's chest with full force on the curb as well as the bradoon, mouth gaping open, with a very tightly cranked crank noseband.

Apparently that now is the excepted new *suppling* exercise for the New Age Dressage Horse.

That would be my guess too. Be we are among the unenlighted, unwashed idiots that just don't get the fact that it takes force, intimidation and leaned helplessness on the horses part to ride these hot international horses. Personally it screems winning at all cost and a glaring lack of horsemanship skills, to put it mildly.

BaroquePony
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:38 PM
Posted by suzy:

I have no idea who coined that phrase about competing against yourself, but I think it's just plain silly. In all honesty, how many of you who compete are out there just “to compete against yourself?” I compete against myself every day, at home, in my training. I don’t need to trailer to another location at great expense to "compete against myself." I’d like to know who came up with this strange notion of competing against oneself in an actual competition setting. Sure, we want to do better than the time before, but we also want to do better than the other competitors in our test. At least I do. Otherwise, I’ll save myself a lot of money and effort and stay home.

The phrase "competeing with yourself" is very old. It means that you no longer look at your rivals because you are totally centered on yourself and always being the best that YOU can be. When competeing, the rider should not even notice the other riders or horses. They should be totally focused on their equitation and their breathing in unison with their horse.

More or less.

AZ Native
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:41 PM
Red Barn hits the nail on the head.

AND I bought my last intl dressage video in 1996. I have never liked Anky and likely never will.

I find RK reprehensible. Of course I have witnessed the "training techniques" of people whose faces grace the cover of mags and I can assure you there is a lot of ignorance at the top, or total lack of concern how many horses they will ride into the ground and breakdown on their trip there.

The same goes of AA's who can.

I never had the money to be very competitive altho I could certainly teach and train. I would have needed to drop out if these were the people I was competing against anyway.

I never want to hear another dressage rider looking down their noses at western riders tying heads to girths or saddlebred folks soring for the big lick. We are right there with them now.

Great post by you and Red Barn. Thank you both.

netg
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:42 PM
So the reason that older schoolmaster isn't retired into his well deserved field to only do work he can do without the 'help' of a dose of bute here and there is exactly what? I just don't see why a horse that starts being stiff after work can't be retired. The only reason I can see is because someone is too cheap to spend money on a younger horse that is fit to do the job without mother's little helpers.

I intend to let my guy be a schoolmaster when he's old. Right now, he's young and fit and doesn't need any help, but I expect he will be unhappy if not working until the day he passes. That's just his temperament. And if he's stiff and needs pain relievers/anti-inflammatories to help him, I'll give it to him. If he's *sore* that's a different story, but given dressage is his third career at 8 years old, I expect some stiffness by the time he's 20. I also know this is a horse who does more damage to himself if not working enough than dressage does to his body, and want to keep him around as long as possible.

I don't believe in trying to push for more, more, more, on a horse who has soundness/soreness problems, or trying to compete with them at that point, but if a little medication can help keep him doing what he loves, that's awesome. It likely won't be bute, though, given how hard that can be on them. I imagine by the time it comes under consideration for him, there will be different options than there are now.



Sniping is an interesting way to put it. I had no idea that a discussion about the techniques was viewed as sniping. Perhaps some people get a little *ahem* passionate about it - but isn't that part of the beauty of riding? That we can HAVE these discussions?

*shrug* Again, maybe it's just me. I enjoy talking about different techniques - analyzing what feels right, what feels wrong, and trying to make the sport always better, always more humane, all while keeping an eye on the history and origination of the sport itself.

That's just my perspective, and though some have been very gracious in their discussions (you included, suzy) I do not feel like others have been. On either side, really, which is a shame.

You and I would get along discussing horses in person, whether we agreed on anything or not. I analyze *everything* - and my friends laugh at me and tell me I'm being an engineer again. :)

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:42 PM
The phrase "competeing with yourself" is very old. It means that you no longer look at your rivals because you are totally centered on yourself and always being the best that YOU can be. When competeing, the rider should not even notice the other riders or horses. They should be totally focused on their equitation and their breathing in unison with their horse.

More or less.

Yes, I'm aware that this phrase has been around for a long time, but *I* personally think it's ridiculous. Isn't our everyday riding all about striving to be the best we can be and doing the best by our horses! And, yes, I have that mindset when I compete, but when I'm not in the competition ring, I make a point of noticing the other horses and riders. Especially the good ones as there is much to be learned from watching how they warm up for and ride a test.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:47 PM
You see it in every sport.

"If they didn't have to hobble around I'd win the Western Pleasure."

"If they didn't have such a tight course I'd win the level () jumpers."

"If they didn't want the horses half dead I'd win the hunters."

"If they didn't want horses rolkured into submission I'd win dressage."



Weird. Because I did win in 2 and 3, and I didn't LTD nor participate in any abusive practices. In fact, I was pretty darned successful. *shrug* I chose to leave the sport mainly due to my injuries and PTSD but also because I got tired of things being about horses looking half dead around 8 really boring fences. So sue me.


The idealism of dressage by Classical enthusiasts is guided by the same romanticism that guided the american dream in Kafka's time

That's pretty interesting, but...strange. My "romanticism" if you will comes from reading the rules of dressage, my trainers of quite awhile ago, and beliefs of what is right with my horses and what is wrong - but you are right to say that I'm an idealist - that's actually my personality type and to be quite honest - we're the ones that get sh*t done on this planet because we don't accept the status quo.


I see. I had misunderstood about the money thing. Although I wonder if breeding really is all that profitable...

Actually it's the training that is profitable. Win and you can make money hands over fist (is that the right expression?) for a lonnnng time. And people stop caring how you win - they genuinely do.


I should have put a next to "sniping" because I did mean that somewhat jokingly. Discussing different techniques can be valuable. You had the disadvantage of coming onto this forum not knowing the history of the LDR/rollkur (ahem) discussions. They've gotten pretty heated, and a lot of people are just plain tired of the topic.

I read a lot of them. I had hoped to avoid the heatedness and tried REALLY hard to keep things on an even keel. I think what bothers me the most about the whole thing is that it is becoming so polarizing rather than uniting. We should continue to discuss these things so long as there is serious discussion to be had. We should continue to wonder whether we are doing the best for our horses as long as we aren't 100% sure.

And it really shouldn't be a case of "if you're not for everything that we do, you're against us" - because that's not how I'm seeing this either.

I don't like the condescension of many of the posters - quite frankly I'm sickened by it.

And yes ginger - I'm typing on a keyboard instead of out riding my horses because it's pouring rain, I'm suffering from PTSD, and I don't have a lesson today. I've watched many videos, but my connection is really crappy today because of the weather, so instead, I'm doing what I do best, which is read, ask questions and learn.

After all...this is a discussion board - where people are supposed to...discuss things.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:50 PM
You and I would get along discussing horses in person, whether we agreed on anything or not. I analyze *everything* - and my friends laugh at me and tell me I'm being an engineer again.

LOL - I'm the daughter of an engineer. I think that explains a lot *laughing* The agreement isn't necessary so long as the discussion is good. If the logic is flawed, that bugs the crap out of me - but as long as the logic is there - well, okay then - I still don't agree but it's all good.

Maybe I should get a little hotter under the collar to fit in here *laughing* Just kidding!!!! Really!!!

AZ Native
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:55 PM
The original meaning of the word is french, to prepare, to train. That is a very simple way of putting it, but it would seem that many of these horses are ill prepared. If they are so hot that it requires abusive training methods in order to subdue them to the point of manageability I cannot see how they are genuinely prepared.

Let's also look at the famous words of the French Cavalry Officer L'Hotte - "calm, forward, straight, light"
The first element is calm - the mind does not learn at its best when it is not calm. These horses have energy going forwards but are they straight? And in the end there is no element of lightness.

When I see many of the upper level riders I see just that - riders. They are not trainers, they are not teachers. I think of teachers I have encountered throughout my own education who were highly intelligent but did not know how to communicate their knowledge to their students and instead resorted to put downs, harassment, embarrassment and whatever else they could find to fill in the gap and take the attention off their own lack of skills in teaching.

I also believe that those who are pro-rollkur function in a similar manner. They are riders but not necessarily effective teachers. The reason I deduce this is that when you are a true teacher you are also constantly learning from your students - from your horses. I don't see any learning going on in this direction. The horse is merely there to be submissive and obedient, not to give valuable feedback.

And as regards competition, I view it in the light that it is not Dressage. Even clinging to the words "Classical Dressage" can be tricky as many claim to be using it because it is popular to do so. The evidence of your capabilities as a rider/trainer lie solely in the horse. Not in some arbitrary score given by a judge. And does anyone else remember being told that there are no winners in Dressage competitions because you are simply competing against yourself? That the score is only to grade how you are working at that particular level, and not something to compare to the other riders. Just curious. :)

And a side note. I have ridden horses who were trained using Rollkur. I have also retrained horses who were trained in this way. Consistently there are giant gaps in their training and they had the mental faculties of a child. They were nervous and distrustful of the rider's intentions. There are reasons why crank nosebands came into fashion along with more disturbing training methods. Rollkured horses have such nervous mouths that without these kinds of nosebands they are such busy bodies and impossible to control through the reins with these riding methods.
All of the horses that I have worked with like this, their owners consistently made mention that they were extraordinarily hot horses, sensitive, etc. That they needed very talented and tactful riders to manage them. One of the original horses I retrained from Rollkur had a regular habit of dumping riders. First ride I had on her she took to rearing straight up. This was combined with a horse who knew only to rush forward into unyielding hands and had only learned to be controlled through force. None of her riders had ever connected with her brain. I'm happy to report that this same mare that was impossible to be ridden by beginners and even most talented riders, is owned and lovingly ridden by a total amateur who isn't even a dressage rider. She's taken out on trails, hacked around on and is the new schoolmaster for this woman to learn dressage on for the first time. Once she realized that I wasn't there to bully her around and she began actually interacting with me on a mental level the rest fell into place. But getting her to stop checking out mentally was what took the longest. That is what always takes the longest on these horses ridden in rollkur or hyperflexion, or LDR however you want to call it. That is why it is abusive - these horses take on the habits of a person who has been abused. Withdrawn and non-responsive mixed with habits of overreacting and blowing up.

The excuse of the hot temperaments of these horses is old and ineffectual. The problem always lies with the rider. Some horses take longer to develop than others because they are living breathing beings, which can be a problem if you wish to be competing an 8 year old at Grand Prix...

Just some thoughts.

Brilliant ! I have a friend who rehabed a RK trained horse and it was very similar to your description. It has taken about 3 years . This horse had soundness issues as well due to his training , some of which are still being dealt with. His mind was blown and his body pretty wrecked :mad:

suzy
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:56 PM
And it really shouldn't be a case of "if you're not for everything that we do, you're against us" - because that's not how I'm seeing this either.



You are absolutely right about how polarizing this topic is. I am in the camp of being neither pro nor anti-rollkur. I don't have enough information available to me to come to a concrete conclusion. What I have learned through these threads boils down to this. The pro-rollkur people have been quite polite to me. The anti-rollkur people skewer me at every possible turn. They don't seem to appreciate those of us who want to keep an open mind. Sort of reminds me of religious fanatics. It's their way or no way, which is why I don't subscribe to any type of organized religion. ;) I'm happy to have the discussion, but the anti- crowd won't even go so far as to *politely* agree to disagree.

Since you seem to have a genuine interest in this topic without tarring and feathering anyone, I'm happy to continue the conversation.

Just have to add...I'm married to an engineer. Scary how much like him I'm becoming. ;)

fburton
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:56 PM
I was at the vet seminar last friday and Dr. Allen Kent talked about bute and the differences in the countries attitudes.
How did he explain the difference in attitudes?


I was shocked and appalled that much of Europe would eat a horse.
Why? Isn't that also an example of black and white perception?

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 03:57 PM
Brilliant ! I have a friend who rehabed a RK trained horse and it was very similar to your description. It has taken about 3 years . This horse had soundness issues as well due to his training , some of which are still being dealt with. His mind was blown and his body pretty wrecked :mad:

I think that is a rider issue not the technique.

ginger708
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:05 PM
Weird. Because I did win in 2 and 3, and I didn't LTD nor participate in any abusive practices. In fact, I was pretty darned successful. *shrug* I chose to leave the sport mainly due to my injuries and PTSD but also because I got tired of things being about horses looking half dead around 8 really boring fences. So sue me.



That's pretty interesting, but...strange. My "romanticism" if you will comes from reading the rules of dressage, my trainers of quite awhile ago, and beliefs of what is right with my horses and what is wrong - but you are right to say that I'm an idealist - that's actually my personality type and to be quite honest - we're the ones that get sh*t done on this planet because we don't accept the status quo.



Actually it's the training that is profitable. Win and you can make money hands over fist (is that the right expression?) for a lonnnng time. And people stop caring how you win - they genuinely do.



I read a lot of them. I had hoped to avoid the heatedness and tried REALLY hard to keep things on an even keel. I think what bothers me the most about the whole thing is that it is becoming so polarizing rather than uniting. We should continue to discuss these things so long as there is serious discussion to be had. We should continue to wonder whether we are doing the best for our horses as long as we aren't 100% sure.

And it really shouldn't be a case of "if you're not for everything that we do, you're against us" - because that's not how I'm seeing this either.

I don't like the condescension of many of the posters - quite frankly I'm sickened by it.

And yes ginger - I'm typing on a keyboard instead of out riding my horses because it's pouring rain, I'm suffering from PTSD, and I don't have a lesson today. I've watched many videos, but my connection is really crappy today because of the weather, so instead, I'm doing what I do best, which is read, ask questions and learn.

After all...this is a discussion board - where people are supposed to...discuss things.

What is the point of discussion if the point of views have already been made. Please tell me at what time so far in the WEG has a rule not been enforced. The horse bit it's lip or tongue the official saw blood and the horse was excused. A horse for m Mexico did not look correct in his jog and was excused from eventing. Another horse in Dressage kicked himself there was an irregularity in his extended trot and the horse was excused. Are you trying to say that if any of these thing happened to a big crowd draw horse like Totilas the officials would look the other way to make money, or the rider would just ride to get another medal?

Just because to your eye it looks incorrect dose not mean it does not follow the rules. There is another thread where a poster said that Totilas was not working from behind. I am not sure how that is possible but he does get his lower marks on his trot. There are times when the back does not always seem to be moving in exact rhythm with the front. This would explain why a horse as great as Totilas does not get 100% in all of his tests. The rules are being followed according to the training scale and the horse is getting marked down for something he is not doing correctly or as correctly as a judge thinks he should be doing it.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:06 PM
You are absolutely right about how polarizing this topic is. I am in the camp of being neither pro nor anti-rollkur. I don't have enough information available to me to come to a concrete conclusion. What I have learned through these threads boils down to this. The pro-rollkur people have been quite polite to me. The anti-rollkur people skewer me at every possible turn. They don't seem to appreciate those of us who want to keep an open mind. Sort of reminds me of religious fanatics. It's their way or no way, which is why I don't subscribe to any type of organized religion. I'm happy to have the discussion, but the anti- crowd won't even go so far as to *politely* agree to disagree

That's funny - because I've had exactly the opposite reaction to me - but maybe it's because of the way I phrase things. It could well be. Oh! I'm not an organized religion person myself - dogma holds no appeal for me and those conversations can be painful as well. I always want to say - look, you would stand a chance of converting me (fanatic's goal) if you'd calm down and discuss it like a rational person!

:)


Just have to add...I'm married to an engineer. Scary how much like him I'm becoming.

LOL - it's the engineering connection - seriously!!

I guess my overarching question is - where do you stop? Or rather, where do we stop (on either line)?

ridgeback has in her (I'm assuming) signature the food inc movie - great movie by the way - I'm a fan. But in food inc, a huge message is that breeding chickens to be "better" for the food industry has become worse for us and for the chickens - and indeed, inhumane. I won't raise meat chickens for that reason unless they are traditional breeds (I do have non-meat chickens, and they are free-ranging).

Newer doesn't always mean better. Progress isn't always good.

OneGrayPony
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:10 PM
What is the point of discussion if the point of views have already been made. Please tell me at what time so far in the WEG has a rule not been enforced. The horse bit it's lip or tongue the official saw blood and the horse was excused. A horse for m Mexico did not look correct in his jog and was excused from eventing. Another horse in Dressage kicked himself there was an irregularity in his extended trot and the horse was excused. Are you trying to say that if any of these thing happened to a big crowd draw horse like Totilas the officials would look the other way to make money, or the rider would just ride to get another medal?

Huh?

What the heck are you talking about?

My point of view hasn't already been made. In fact, throughout this thread I have asked what the point is of this, what the purpose is of that.

I wasn't even talking about WEG other than the fact that the rider's position (AC) was well behind what I was taught - which someone informed me was because of the horse's temperament, and then we discussed the purpose of LDR.

I don't like the way Totilas goes, but I wasn't complaining about the "rules" at WEG?

You seem to be attributing a lot to my comments that aren't there, or are in direct response to someone *else's* comment, but you have taken them out of context.

ridgeback
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:12 PM
How did he explain the difference in attitudes?


Why? Isn't that also an example of black and white perception?

Nope that isn't black and white, black and white would be screaming you are going to go to h*ll for eating horses, your country should be banned from any and all horse sport. See that is black and white. Me being appalled but realizing it's your choice to eat horse meat is GREY:) as long as it's not against the law. ;) you ask why?? The horse holds a very special place in this country..our country was built on the back of the horse not to mention the wild mustangs that still roam out west..

If I remember correctly he said the opinions changed a bit more then a decade ago and he explained how it is illegal in some countries because they are used for food and I think he might have said something about animal rights groups but I might be wrong about that:) also about level playing field so they are doing some testing about time frames for bute to leave their systems. He did say it often got very heated:D

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 30, 2010, 04:17 PM
I don't like the way Totilas goes, but I wasn't complaining about the "rules" at WEG?



Why am I not surprised? It's like there is a profile out there for all of you :)