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MEP
Sep. 27, 2010, 01:33 PM
What's going on in Toronto? Looks like some big-time show organizers are having a million $ spat. Has this had any effect on the shows? The lawsuit seems to be about only one particular show/date, but does it have any bearing on any of the other big shows?

http://www.barnmice.com/group/horsejournals/forum/topics/show-organizers-launch-11

Ridesrealfast
Sep. 27, 2010, 04:03 PM
is the optimum word here.:yes: It really is too early to make any predictions as to the outcome of this lawsuit (I just found about it yesterday myself :eek:) but one thing is certain. There is going to be a lot more Canucks on COTH than before 'cause the EMG bulletin board is closed! :confused:

eclipse
Sep. 27, 2010, 05:32 PM
Wow, and I thought our horse show spats in Alberta were something!!! :lol: So when did the EMG boards close??:(

SolarFlare
Sep. 27, 2010, 06:27 PM
The EMG boards went down "for routine maintenance" this past weekend, and now the link to the boards from the main page is completely gone.

Ravencrest_Camp
Sep. 27, 2010, 07:15 PM
"According to The Star, “The 19-page statement of claim has also revealed a quiet, $1-a-year sweetheart rental agreement between the town of Caledon and one of Eastern Canada’s most prominent horse show promoters.”"

Is that really news? Wasn't the $1 a year lease common knowledge?

gladys
Sep. 27, 2010, 11:20 PM
"According to The Star, “The 19-page statement of claim has also revealed a quiet, $1-a-year sweetheart rental agreement between the town of Caledon and one of Eastern Canada’s most prominent horse show promoters.”"

Is that really news? Wasn't the $1 a year lease common knowledge?

Perhaps in the hunter/jumper world, but I doubt it was common knowledge among non-horsey residents of Caledon or the surrounding area.

Ravencrest_Camp
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:39 AM
Perhaps in the hunter/jumper world, but I doubt it was common knowledge among non-horsey residents of Caledon or the surrounding area.

With municipal elections going on in Ontario right now, I wonder if this will become an election issue in Caledon?

dilligaff2
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:49 AM
I knew about the deal--can't remember how I heard about it--but even then I was ???.

We were discussing on another board, before the Star article, just how little people are getting for their money at the park.

Our supposed 'Premier' show grounds are so run down that every time it rains, you have to avoid the buckets for the leaking roof in the club-house etc ....

With all of the money that the shows have been pulling in (EMG's own and the facility rentals for others), there should have been some up keep on the facilities--especially considering there is no expense for the land.

With the Pam-Am games upcoming, who do you think is going to pay for the $$$ upgrades?

Spud&Saf
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:12 AM
I knew about the deal--can't remember how I heard about it--but even then I was ???.

We were discussing on another board, before the Star article, just how little people are getting for their money at the park.

Our supposed 'Premier' show grounds are so run down that every time it rains, you have to avoid the buckets for the leaking roof in the club-house etc ....

With all of the money that the shows have been pulling in (EMG's own and the facility rentals for others), there should have been some up keep on the facilities--especially considering there is no expense for the land.

With the Pam-Am games upcoming, who do you think is going to pay for the $$$ upgrades?

Well they did just put in the East Hunter Ring within the last few years. I never have any complaints about the quality of the jumps provided by EMG either. Also, when things break - ie hoses at the washracks, stall walls, etc. I find that they are very quick in fixing and replacing them.

It is true that the Pavillion could probably use a little sprucing up, but then again I don't show in it...

I am really thankful to have the grounds show at and I think EMG has done a good job running the shows it puts on.

mkt
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:34 AM
I remember hearing bits and pieces of this last year when we all found out Tournament wasn’t being run anymore, nothing creditable at the time, but defiantly interesting to see what has come of it all.


And I agree with Spud&Saf, Caledon is quite well kept, especially compared to other facilities our shows are run at. Although I was quite frightened when the 'weather proof' pavilion tent/roof came off last year in the wind.

MyFancyHunterPony
Sep. 28, 2010, 05:48 PM
The EMG shows in Palgrave are the best run shows we have. The footing is always great (even in down pours they do their best), the rings are always running smoothly (besides your usual conflicts with coaching ect.) there is always someone working on the poop, watering the grounds, changing the garbages ect. Halton/Iron Horse are not as favourable IMHO, I would much rather spend my summer at EMG. The ring crew boys work late nights when they know its goingt o rain to prepare the rings for the weather in hopes that the footing will be decent the next day.

I also didn't think the $1 a year was news, I guess everyone in our tight knit horse show community knows about it but not others. I also think it is no secret about who is pocketing the majority of the money. It will be interesting to see where this lawsuit goes and what the outcome is.

tamarak_equestrian
Sep. 28, 2010, 06:05 PM
Apparently the pavilion is being completely redone for the PanAm games. I'm assuming they're probably getting some funding for that, even though I'm pretty sure EMG makes a small fortune off of us. It's about time though. I think the rest of the place is very well kept, but the pavilion is kind of run down.

I was just at the show on Friday and didn't hear anything about this, I'm kind of surprised I didn't. Maybe this is why the show staff was so rude to us all day though. I wondered what was with the lengthy maintenance of the EMG boards.

I never liked Tournament of Champions so I was happy to see it replaced. I think it says something a little sad about our circuit though that I don't find half of what the article claims happened to be shocking or unexpected. I don't think the whole "raw underbelly" thing is news to anyone.

Tucket
Sep. 28, 2010, 06:15 PM
The EMG shows in Palgrave are the best run shows we have. The footing is always great .

This must be a joke!! Do you work for EMG??

It's true Palgrave is one of the best run shows... in Ontario... which is a very very very sad thing... the footing is AWFUL if not down right dangerous, there is such thing as modern footing not just sand and clay mixed up and layered on more clay. IMO people in Ontario need to get out and see what 'quality" footing looks like, try Kentucky, WEF, Ocala, thermal, or more locally Bromont.

They make a fortune off of these shows, it's about time someone called them on their BS whether they are right or wrong on everything.

I personally attended the CSJT after a 2 season hiatus where I competed in the US (because of the above sited issue). I must have fantasized in my head that it "wasn't so bad". I brought 4 horses of which only showed 1 the second week, and that one moved down in divisions so that I wouldn't take him in the GP ring... where he was seriously injured last spring... because of their footing... which apparently hasn't changed.

Ridesrealfast
Sep. 28, 2010, 07:30 PM
Tucket is hands down and MFHP is thumbs up for Palgrave. So I'll shoot for the middle and a little to the right. I like Palgrave for all the reasons MFHP mentioned and more. It's always pretty fun to be at Palgrave showing and you know what to expect: a busy and well-run venue. Except for the weather! I have always said that Bolton (I still call it that) has it's own weather pattern. Therefore, when Mother Nature heeds her wrath EMG takes a header. And so does the footing to a certain degree. And I think that's why Tucket has a very valid point. Wondering why no improvements to the pavilion lately? Because of the 2015 Pam Am Games. When it is done I am sure it will be beautiful.

MyFancyHunterPony
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:15 PM
This must be a joke!! Do you work for EMG??

It's true Palgrave is one of the best run shows... in Ontario... which is a very very very sad thing... the footing is AWFUL if not down right dangerous, there is such thing as modern footing not just sand and clay mixed up and layered on more clay. IMO people in Ontario need to get out and see what 'quality" footing looks like, try Kentucky, WEF, Ocala, thermal, or more locally Bromont.

They make a fortune off of these shows, it's about time someone called them on their BS whether they are right or wrong on everything.

I personally attended the CSJT after a 2 season hiatus where I competed in the US (because of the above sited issue). I must have fantasized in my head that it "wasn't so bad". I brought 4 horses of which only showed 1 the second week, and that one moved down in divisions so that I wouldn't take him in the GP ring... where he was seriously injured last spring... because of their footing... which apparently hasn't changed.

LOL, no I don't. Out of all the shows we have here in Ontario Palgrave has the best footing, even their mud is far better than any other. No other show we have is as nice as Palgrave. The only thing I really hate about Palgrave is it rains a lot which is acceptable considering 6 (or 8?) weeks of the summer is spent there. I also hate how biotchy some of the staff can be!

tamarak_equestrian
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:42 PM
I second that last point. Don't even get me started on the crap we got this past weekend. According to the office, my pony wasn't entered, even though my coach double checked the night before that he was, so they said I had to put him in as an add... yet his number was the one immediately following my coach's other pony's number... meaning there's no way in heck he was an add. Their mistake that they tried to pawn off on my coach, and then we got crap at the in gate about fitting him in the order. Not MY fault they didn't put him in the posted order even though he was clearly in the computer as being entered. They wouldn't let one person from our barn pick up all the numbers either, even though that person always goes to pick up the numbers, the list goes on. Everyone was in a particularly foul mood this past weekend. Guess we all need a break from showing.

NEIGH-HAM
Sep. 28, 2010, 11:49 PM
This must be a joke!! Do you work for EMG??

IMO people in Ontario need to get out and see what 'quality" footing looks like, try Kentucky, WEF, Ocala, thermal, or more locally Bromont.

.

To true...heck... a jaunt over to Quebec would show just how much Palgrave really lacks...and the office atmosphere there is generally poisen...ya...a nice way to spend a day doing your "hobby",

The US offers much more with thier venues...but if you never leave an area you do not know what you have...or don't have;)

cherham
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:23 AM
Its not the little piddly million dollar law suit for breach of contract that will be the telling tale (as you all know anyone can sue anyone for anything these days). Its the issue of the $1.00 per year land lease that EMG has managed to arrange for years! Now THAT definetly is on the mind of the local taxpayers ....and....with the local election under way you just know that heads are going to roll on that one. My non horsey locals (whom pay rather exhorbitant taxes) in the area are fuming let me tell you. This is going to get nasty no matter how you look at it.

dilligaff2
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:32 AM
LOL, no I don't. Out of all the shows we have here in Ontario Palgrave has the best footing, even their mud is far better than any other.

Then I suggest you take a trip to Ironhorse (old Hendervale). We showed both venues back to back in the same weather and while we were slogging thru the footing @ Palgrave, the footing , even in the lower rings at Ironhorse, held up much better. No, there isn't a central pavilion but the footing was definitely better.


Wondering why no improvements to the pavilion lately? Because of the 2015 Pam Am Games. When it is done I am sure it will be beautiful.

Did they have a crystal ball? The Pavilion has been falling in around us for years--the games were just recently announced. And why should the Taxpayers of the province have to foot the bill for repairs? Isn't upkeep of your buildings a BASIC cost of doing business?

Sally ann
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:55 AM
Palgrave's footing is track sand dumped on top of the original footing from eons ago. My horses get sucked down into it and it is very hard on them. Halton's is brand new and even when flooded with rain, the horses stay on top of it. I much much prefer Halton, but hate the higher show bills and lower pay out. That bothers me. It is cheaper to show at Palgrave, then go to Halton or Ironhorse. Much cheaper. My bills are usually double at those shows.

Now about the EMG staff- my biggest conversation starter this year. Except for maybe 2 people, EMG staff are the rudest, most arrogant, nasty people I have ever encountered. They can not even be bothered to say Hi, open their eyes (which are always half closed with boredom) or turn their bodies towards you. They never say Thank you, only insult customers,parents and children. The only people I have seen them speak civilly to are BNTs. But lets face it, some of those are just as rude and arrogant. I can not for the life of me figure out how these people keep their jobs. It must be why they work there, no one else would hire them. And they were at their rudest this past weekend.

But go to Halton, Rob Robertsons shows or Ottawa (please get those costs down guys) and you get thank yous and smiles in the office. But unfortunately they hire the same ingate girls from EMG, so that atmosphere is just as bad.

Canadapony
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:10 AM
At Palgrave, if you are nice, polite and pleasant with the staff they return it back to you.

dauntless
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:36 AM
Anyone know what happened to the other thread on this? I think it was in Offcourse, but it seems to have disappeared.

I don't show the As but am a frequent spectator. It seems to be that HP is a really nice venue - why do ppl prefer Palgrave over HP? It seems like HP really wants the business - I remember when they changed their ship in fee in response to complaints.

Sally ann
Sep. 29, 2010, 10:11 AM
At Palgrave, if you are nice, polite and pleasant with the staff they return it back to you.

Well Canadapony, I am nice and pleasant with lots of good mornings and thank yous all the time and get nothing in return. Even when they deserve to be sounded out for extremely rude behavior, I just keep smiling and wishing them a very nice day, as I will never ever behave like that. :no: I have never had a thank you when I hand over a large cheque, I have never had a pleasant response when I have a question for an ingate girl. If they are that unhappy in their jobs, they should get a new one and hand this over to someone who can actually say thank you. I find it surprising in this competitive job market, that they would not be a little more concerned with their lack of customer service. But I guess boss man encourages rude staff. It is really too bad as it is the main negative to an otherwise great show.

Top Knot
Sep. 29, 2010, 11:51 AM
It is true Palgrave is probably the best we have in Ontario...

but their footing sadly lacks, as does their stabling. In the mud, the GP ring becomes greasy on top, and hard as a rock on the bottom. The other rings get bogged down and deep in the corners. There is very little improvement done each year.

I much prefer saving our $$ and showing out of province and in the U.S. The professionally done footing makes a big difference.

Who wants to spend tens or hundreds of thousands on a horse to jump it on run down and old footing?

Yes the Pan Ams are coming, but that is 5 years away. Last I spoke with management from EMG, they weren't redoing the rings until the Pan Ams.

I do enjoy the staff there and the horse show workers. They also offer better prize money.

Tucket
Sep. 29, 2010, 04:45 PM
I do enjoy the staff there and the horse show workers. They also offer better prize money.

... unfortunately the "good prize money" is often not enough to pay for a torn tendon, twisted ankle, or other such ailment requiring pricey veterinary care sustained in bad footing ...

snakebite123
Sep. 29, 2010, 05:48 PM
If all the other shows put on in Ontario have such wonderful footing compared to Palgrave, and their staff so much friendlier, why are those shows so much smaller?

Tucket
Sep. 29, 2010, 08:00 PM
If all the other shows put on in Ontario have such wonderful footing compared to Palgrave, and their staff so much friendlier, why are those shows so much smaller?

Because Craig (of EMG) is on the Jump Canada board which assigns point value for shows and so he is able to monopolize the entire provincial A circuit by assigning the highest point value to his shows (Palgrave) making them mandatory for those wanting to attended the royal... conveniently also managed by EMG.


... I wouldn't consider Iron Horse (Bronte Creek... hendervale...) or HP to be superior in footing by any means... Ontario as a whole needs a face lift.

snakebite123
Sep. 29, 2010, 09:47 PM
Point value is given by how much prize money is offered at each horse show, not assigned by Craig. Halton Place had the same rating as Palgrave for the majority of their shows. The exception being their July show they had poor attendance and divisions cancelled hence less prize money given out. Thats why the lower rating. Same with Hendervale.

Ravencrest_Camp
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:03 AM
Point value is given by how much prize money is offered at each horse show, not assigned by Craig. Halton Place had the same rating as Palgrave for the majority of their shows. The exception being their July show they had poor attendance and divisions cancelled hence less prize money given out. Thats why the lower rating. Same with Hendervale.

Slight correction. The multiplier (or point value) is determined by the prize money AWARDED, not offered.

This was evident at some of the smaller shows in the spring. The multiplier ended up being lower than what was listed in the prizelist. This was because not all prize money offered was awarded, due to small class sizes.

Ravencrest_Camp
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:10 AM
If all the other shows put on in Ontario have such wonderful footing compared to Palgrave, and their staff so much friendlier, why are those shows so much smaller?

There are probably a number of reasons why these other shows are smaller than the ones run by EMG.

EMG and the Caledon Equestrian Park have been around a lot longer and are more established. So people tend to show there more often.

Location. The Caledon Equestrian Park is very close to the heart of horse country in Ontario.

With the demise of many shows (Kitchener, London, Sunnybrook, Barrie) EMG has snapped up the show dates. With Equine Canada's exclusivity rule no other show can be on those same dates.

This past year there were 9 out of 20 Gold level shows at the Caledon Equestrian Park. These were either EMG shows or shows hosted by someone else, but run by EMG. If you want to show at the Gold level in Ontario, you are between a rock and a hard place. You pretty much have to show in Palgrave.

Spud&Saf
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:14 AM
At Palgrave, if you are nice, polite and pleasant with the staff they return it back to you.

I've got to say that isn't necessarily the case.

Although I have never had any problems with the staff myself per se, I will say that they are not approachable and certainly do not give excellent customer service.

I have witnessed what I thought was unnecessary snark towards other customers while standing in line. It is as though they expect everyone to "be in the know" and if someone is not, their questions are met with a certain disdain.

I will say that CLIFF at the East Ring is fantastic though, what a LOVELY man!

sansibar
Sep. 30, 2010, 10:50 AM
On the topic of footing I think the jumper Annex ring at Halton Place is by far the best footing we have out of the handful of venues in Ontario. No matter how much rain comes down that arena drains out promptly and rarely do you see puddle forming in there. I have no clue for the quality of footing in hunter land there except for when I had to hack in it in WHITE pants after it had rained, well those pants got ruined because of all the puddles. However since then they have moved the classes into the scenic new arena they recently completed.

When I was at Iron Horse for the first show the footing was so sticky and heavy after the rain came down. I could barely walk my courses. However it did dry up quick but it was still quite hard to get around in there. I didn't even go to the second show, the grand prix ring is not what it used to be by any means.

Not going to comment on Palgraves footing because I didn't show on the weeks where the torrential downpours were happening. The footing was okay at Palgrave when I showed in normal weather, I found it a bit inconsistent in parts.

And I have never shown at ottawa so I have no clue what the footing is like there.

tamarak_equestrian
Sep. 30, 2010, 01:45 PM
At Palgrave, if you are nice, polite and pleasant with the staff they return it back to you.
I have never been anything but polite and pleasant to all of the staff and probably 75% of the time I get attitude from them anyways.