Stacia Madden's Appeal to ASPCA Board of Directors

[FastandClean]

The following letter is being circulated regarding this year and last year's ASPCA Medal Finals...

Beacon Hill Show Stables, Inc.
55 Laird Road
Colts Neck, New Jersey 07722
(732)332-0800
(732) 332-0717 Fax


To Whom It May Concern:

Please take the time to read this letter. I feel very passionate about the subject of the ASPCA Maclay finals as I know many do.

My hope it writing this letter to the National Horse Show Association of America, LTD Board of Directors is to express my growing concern for the future of this class.

As you will notice I am sending copies to approximately 80 people who vary in the role they play in the horse industry.

Please comment, write, fax, or email any suggestions you might have regarding the future of the ASPCA Maclay finals.

Change happens when people get together who have a common belief and are passionate about their cause.

The industry has been able to make several changes so far regarding the ASPCA, I just feel it is time we as part of the industry have some say or are at least heard.

Thanks for your time!



Sincerely,



Stacia K.Madden



Beacon Hill Show Stables, Inc.
55 Laird Road
Colts Neck, New Jersey
07722
(732) 332-0800 Phone
(732) 332-0717 Fax

November 12, 2004
Board of Directors
National Horse Show Association of America, Limited
P.O. Box 386
Greenvale, New York 11548

Dear Board of Directors,

I have had the opportunity to be involved with Beacon Hill Show Stables as a customer, an assistant, a rider, a trainer, and an owner. This experience spans from 1986 to the present. I am writing this letter to express my growing concerns in regards to the NHSAA/ASPCA – Maclay National Championship for the ASPCA Horsemanship class which has been held for the past two years under the show title of “The Metropolitan Horse Show at Pier 94”. I am one of the few people at our stable who had the chance to experience the ASPCA Maclay Finals in its hey day while it was held at the Madison Square Garden venue. I was also fortunate enough to have won this prestigious class in 1987 and then presented the “ASPCA Horsemanship Trophy” in 1988 while the class was still held at the Garden. The junior riders today were born in 1986 or later, so if you do the math the juniors of today have no memories of the old Garden.


This leads to my next point. The riders of today are being educated by their trainers, parents, riders and professionals of our industry. Once these people lose the memories of the ASPCA Final as it used to be, or these memories diminish or are replaced by scarred memories-this class will lose its importance to the young riders of today who are the future of this horse industry. I recognize that times change, people change, and horse shows change. I try to be optimistic and believe that change is for the good. I can honestly say that I am truly disappointed and saddened by the direction the ASPCA Maclay Finals is going. Maybe I have a special place in my heart to see this class presented in a manner that makes it feel as important as junior riders are being told that it is, and professionals , at least for the time being, believe that it is.

I have been allowed to help manage the junior careers of many top riders in the country with the help of my husband, Frank Madden. I feel strongly that it is our responsibility to take any necessary action to make appropriate decisions for our customers in regards to the horse industry, and this includes the horse shows we choose and the horse shows we attend. My husband has been involved with numerous top riders during their junior careers such as Chris Kappler, Molly Ashe, and Candice King just to name a few. If young riders are not managed correctly, they will not continue with the sport and go on to represent the United States and follow their dreams.


This year was a special year for me as I attended the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, Greece to support our U.S. team and my sister in-law Beezie Madden. The experience was truly great on so many levels. One of the things that became so clear is that on any level, there are challenges to face and answer. I have never been to an event that had such a force behind the organization, which was absolutely refreshing. What I also learned is that no matter how fantastic a venue is, if some of the basic essentials are not met, it will be impossible to hold a great event for the athletes or the spectators. I know what I saw at the Olympic Games, people and horses that worked their whole lives to obtain a chance at their dream, and committees in place to help them do so. I saw a beautiful venue with great seating for the spectators, easy access, good parking, plentiful and clean bathrooms, access to reasonably priced food, and nice weather. I saw stabling areas designed for the welfare of the horse with several riding areas to properly prepare the show jumping athletes, including longing rings and a full service veterinary clinic. With all this in place, the pinnacle event of our sport, the Olympic Games was plagued with problems that were all the result of improper footing for the type of show jumping that was to take place. It is proven, even at this level, that no matter how great everything else is, if the footing is not conducive for the event you are trying to hold, you don’t have much! Anyone involved in show jumping has read about the footing problems during the Olympics, but you don’t read much about how great everything else was.


My point in bringing this up is that I don’t believe the venue selected for the Metropolitan Horse Show even begins to compare with a venue like the Olympics and with that said the only way to overcome that hurdle is to go to extraordinary measures to make the things perfect that one can control, such as footing. When it became apparent the footing at the Olympics was problematic, you saw the course designer moving the fences between rounds and the jump crew tamping between rounds. I know the show management of the Metropolitan Horse Show was aware of the footing issue during the 2003 show, so with my optimistic viewpoint I was able to give the 2004 show a try.


I will only speak about what I know, namely the ASPCA Finals, as we did not show any hunters or jumpers at the Metropolitan. I was disappointed to hear on Wednesday that the ring had to be closed and longing discontinued due to footing issues. I kept telling myself to wait until Saturday night upon the arrival of our horses and staff to pass any sort of judgment. My husband and I arrived at 2:45 am to a horse show that looked like it was coming to a close, not a show that was going to showcase top national finals for the top 100 junior riders in the county. A few examples of this include: overflowing trash containers, trash on the ground surrounding the exercise area, the show ring and the seating area and no security to gain admittance to the public building or the stabling area. There was no visible schooling supervisor or steward and no visible ring maintenance crew, so my first impressions for this New Year were off to a rough start. Once we start to use the show ring, it became clear that we would have to adjust and cut our normal preparation due to the poor footing. From 2:45 am to 4:00 am the height of the two jumps in the ring was never changed from 2’6” – 2’9”, solely because nobody felt comfortable jumping these valuable horses any bigger. The horses broke out into an immediate sweat, struggling to maneuver in the deep, wet, and slick footing. The preparation for one of our most prestigious classes consisted of our riders being instructed to canter down the long side of the ring, trot the short end of the ring, and let the horses rest in five to ten minute intervals. This was all to try and prevent the horses from slipping and losing their confidence and trying to keep the horses from tying up. I was relieved to know that our horses had shipped in from a prior event so we had a chance of this new unplanned preparation schedule working. There were no officials from the management staff present during this time to my knowledge, so these problems may not have been apparent to them.
Beacon Hill had a horse break down last year at the Metropolitan, and it is clear on the video tape that the horse slipped off the ground and landed, unable to bear weight on his hind leg. John Madden said without a doubt, if Authentic were not at the Olympic Games they would not have shown him. I can honestly say in no uncertain terms that if our seven riders were not at the ASPCA Maclay finals, the horses would have been loaded on a truck by 7:00am shipping home to New Jersey.


I take offense to being asked to make that tough of a decision and feeling as if the welfare of the horses is being discarded. It is ironic that such a decision is required in a show associated with the ASPCA.


This is not being critical, it is a fact that our riders had to adjust their rides to suit the conditions, and they were not riding to the best of their ability in a championship setting. For the second round, fifteen riders were selected after Phase I and Phase II to compete in Phase III, three of whom were our students. We walked the course together and immediately realized there was a turn that would be extremely difficult to ride if the proper striding were done. So we made the united decision to do what we believed was best for the horse which was to add a stride in the line to create better balance upon the landing side of the jump before having to make to turn. We could not chance a horse and rider falling down during the ride-off. Coincidently, it was the same end of the ring where we lost one of our top horses to last year.


This was the first indoor show (after Marshall Sterling, Capital Challenge, Pennsylvania National, Washington International, and the Syracuse Invitational) where our equitation horses had to wear caulks for traction. We chose to leave them in for the flat phase which is unusual. After watching the first three horses slip in the turn that worried us, we had to switch to a larger size caulk that is normally used on jumpers in a grass turf ring. Frank and I did the best we could to keep the morale of the riders upbeat, knowing they felt the unstable footing. I know you would agree that a coach should not need to change plans due to conditions that are controllable. To further aggravate the situation, there was never a ring crew member raking, rolling, or tamping the footing to try and make the best of a bad situation. This to me showed a complete disregard for the people and animals who have supported this event and chased their dreams all year. It appeared to the spectators that the judges lost a top rider that had won two phases and was almost hurt due to the horse making a jumping error that could have resulted from a footing problem.


I have given this show two chances. I did notice some significant changes that were somewhat beneficial. The stabling area was much safer, the ring was a better size, and the schooling area was a different configuration. In my opinion the only chance you have to rise above the fact that a difficult venue has been selected would be to completely restructure and rebuild the footing that has been used in the past years. I have several questions that need to be answered before our clients will subject their horses to showing at the Metropolitan Horse Show during the ASPCA Maclay finals again. They are: 1) Does the National Horse Show own the footing that has been used the past two years? 2) If yes, is the entire quantity of the footing be used? 3) What changes do you think were made from 2003 to 2004 to improve the footing? 4) Do you think conditions at the 2004 Metropolitan were good enough to hold a National Championship? My reasons for needing these questions answered pertain to perspective. Show managers have their perspective, exhibitors have theirs, spectators have theirs, and trainers have their own as well. If the show manager’s perspective is that “the Metropolitan Horse Show is the best place for the ASPCA Finals and the footing was fine,” I will know there is just a conflict of perspective and we as Beacon Hill Show Stables should move on and make decisions we deem appropriate.


The most difficult thing for me to overcome is the fact the National Horse Show Board of Directors had a chance to hold the ASPCA Finals at the inaugural Syracuse Invitational Sporthorse Tournament. I saw the raw Pier 94 in September 2003, and I saw the raw Oncenter and War Memorial in November 2002. It was clear just comparing venue to venue that the Syracuse Invitational venue had a distinct advantage. In 2002 there was no traditional “National Horse Show” and people were feeling a void after the Washington International Horse Show. People are conditioned the same way as animals are. The show schedule in the past for the fall circuit was Pennsylvania National (Harrisburg), Washington International (Washington), and the National Horse Show (New York). In 2002 exhibitors were feeling lost with the disappearance of the traditional National Horse Show. John Madden followed his dream of running a world- class event in Syracuse and thought it only made sense with the disappearance of the National, to apply for those dates. John thought he could fill a void, suggest a home for the ASPCA and give the open jumper riders an innovative show to attend on their way to the Royal Winter Fair. On April 14, 2003, while the Syracuse Invitational construction was well under way, there was an announcement of the Metropolitan Horse Show, the National Indoor Horse Show, and the National Outdoor Horse Show. The Syracuse Invitational was told that the ASPCA Finals had a home at the Metropolitan Horse Show. With that news, the Syracuse Invitational came up with the Bates Equitation Finals and the Bates National Computer List.


When the ASPCA Maclay Finals were held at Madison Square Garden, the class was showcased between open jumper classes. The junior riders had the opportunity to ride in front of the very riders they admired and aspired to be. Many times they got to watch international riders they had only read about or watched on television. During this new millennium, the Washington International Equitation finals are the closest class the junior riders have to the way the old ASPCA Finals were presented. The ASPCA Maclay has the advantage of currently inviting 100 top riders to compete and the Washington Equitation Finals only has room for the top 30 riders. I believe this is part of what has made the ASPCA Maclay so special in the past and is being lost in the present. The current ASPCA Finals are currently being showcased in front of the younger peers in the junior field, the pony hunters. One of my fondest memories of winning the 1987 ASPCA Maclay Finals is being greeted at the out gate by William Steinkraus and being extended a heartfelt congratulations by George Morris and Leslie Burr (Howard).


If the National Horse Show board of directors is trying to “protect the integrity of the ASPCA-Maclay Championship,” why don’t the exhibitors who have worked so hard to support the class have any say in where the class is run? Does the National Horse Show Board of Directors really believe the quote from Alan Balch “…but also will make for some of the nicest indoor conditions that our competitors will ever have enjoyed, anywhere!” and “the rings will be the largest I know of at an indoor area and the schooling area is also very large for indoors.”? The articles all say, “The Maclay Finals needs to return to its birthplace, New York.” Is Syracuse in New York? Nobody seems to care about the integrity of the class, just the geographic location. Is that what this class is about now? The ASPCA Maclay phrase is “the Maclay class has served to educate young riders and instill in them sensitivity and respect for their equine partner.” Is this still true? Is the Metropolitan Horse Show providing this for the ASPCA Maclay Finalist?


I know running horse shows is a difficult task, as I am involved with one outdoor show and one indoor show each year. The one thing I am sure about is that you have to focus on what you can do well, and do it the best you can.
The 2008 Olympic venue in Beijing has four years to fix the problems that haunted the 2004 Olympic competition, the ASPCA Maclay junior finalists do not have four years! My only hope is that the committee of the National Horse Show will make decisions in regards to the ASPCA Maclay Finals based on what truly represents the best choice for the class and its riders and their equine partners.

Sincerely,

Stacia Klein Madden


Cc:
Members of the National Horse Show Association of America, LTD:
Jennifer Oz LeRoy Mrs. Robert Aron Mrs. Betty Jane Henry
Eugene R. Mische Alan F. Balch Mrs. John B. Holmes, Jr.
John Y.G. Walker, III William J. Berman, Esq. Louis M. Jacobs
Carolyn E. Vincent Melissa Cohn Suzanne T. Marquard
Bob B. Bell Leo G. Conroy Ernest M. Oare
Mrs. Thomas N. Armstrong, III Harry R. Gill

Other Industry Members:

Steven M. Elkman ( Chairman of the Board-ASPCA) William Steinkraus (USET Member)
Linda Tiramani (Coordinator Membership Services) Bill Moroney (Salamander Farms)
Heather Wallace (Hunter – ASPCA) Sheila Johnson ( President – WIHS)

Sally Ike (Director of Show Jumping USET)
Arden Hess (Director of Special Events) Mary Chapot ( Equitation Committee)
Penelope Ayers (Director of funding – ASPCA)
Jim Toon (JT Farms)
Anthony Bowers ( Descendant of Maclay) Louise Serio (Derbydown Stables)
Andre Digneli (Heritage Farms) Geoff Teall (Montoga Farms)
Missy Clark (North Run Stables) David O’Connor (President USEF)
Bob Braswell (Quiet Hill Farm) Jack Towell (Finally Farms)
Valerie Renihan (Fidlays Ridge Farm) Patty Harnois (Holly Hill Farm)
Tim Kees (Fairfield Hunt Club) Nick Karazissis (Far West Farm)
Karen Healey (Karen Healey Show Stables) Susie Schoellkopf (SBS Farms)
Beverly Bedard (USEF Steward) Carol Thompson (Quiet Winter Farms)
Janet McCarroll (USEF Steward) Judy Richter (Coker Farms)
Linda Allen (USEF Judge) Ronnie Beard ( Wyndmont Stables)
Chrystine Tauber (USEF Judge) John Long (CEO – USEF)
Richard Feldman (Lake Placid Show)
Michael Page (USEF Judge)
Dr.John Steele (Veterinarian)
Kip Rosenthal (USEF Judge)
Arthur Hawkins (USEF Judge)
Holly Hugo-Vidal (USEF Judge)
Randy Mullins (USEF Judge)
Rita Timpanero (USEF Judge)
Jeff Wirthman (USEF Judge)
Christina Scluyesmeyer (Quiet Hill Farm)
Kenny Kraus (USEF Judge)
Thom Brede (USEF Judge)
Cynthia Hankins (USEF Judge)
Margie Hough (USEF Judge)
Kennith Wheeler (Cismont Manor Farm)
John Barker (USEF Judge)
Scott Hofstetter (USEF Judge)
Scott Williamson (USEF Judge) Archie Cox (Brookway Stables)
George Morris (Hunterdon) Linda Andrisani (USEF Judge)
Joe Fargis (Sandron) Susan Ashe (USEF Judge)
Joe Thorpe (Monarch International) Michael D’Ambrosio (USEF Judge)
Patricia Applegate (Arwen Stables) Wendy Ritter (Seabreeze Farm)
Linda Hough (Arwen Stables) Tom Brennan (USEF Steward)
Jim Hagman (Elven Star Farms) Susie Humes (USEF Judge)
Leslie Burr Howard (Fairfield Hunt Club) Linda Esau (USEF Judge)
Conrad Homfeld (USEF Coarse Designer) David Distler (UESF Steward)
Patti Scialfa Springsteen (Stone Hill Farm) Peter Doubleday (USEF Steward)
Toni Goutal (Cloverleaf Farm)
Tom Wright (All Seasons Farms)
Caroline Moran (Goshen Hill Farm)
Jane F. Clark (Former President-USEF)
Jim Doyle (Gotham North)
Alex R. Jayne (Our Day Farm)

[FastandClean]

The following letter is being circulated regarding this year and last year's ASPCA Medal Finals...

Beacon Hill Show Stables, Inc.
55 Laird Road
Colts Neck, New Jersey 07722
(732)332-0800
(732) 332-0717 Fax


To Whom It May Concern:

Please take the time to read this letter. I feel very passionate about the subject of the ASPCA Maclay finals as I know many do.

My hope it writing this letter to the National Horse Show Association of America, LTD Board of Directors is to express my growing concern for the future of this class.

As you will notice I am sending copies to approximately 80 people who vary in the role they play in the horse industry.

Please comment, write, fax, or email any suggestions you might have regarding the future of the ASPCA Maclay finals.

Change happens when people get together who have a common belief and are passionate about their cause.

The industry has been able to make several changes so far regarding the ASPCA, I just feel it is time we as part of the industry have some say or are at least heard.

Thanks for your time!



Sincerely,



Stacia K.Madden



Beacon Hill Show Stables, Inc.
55 Laird Road
Colts Neck, New Jersey
07722
(732) 332-0800 Phone
(732) 332-0717 Fax

November 12, 2004
Board of Directors
National Horse Show Association of America, Limited
P.O. Box 386
Greenvale, New York 11548

Dear Board of Directors,

I have had the opportunity to be involved with Beacon Hill Show Stables as a customer, an assistant, a rider, a trainer, and an owner. This experience spans from 1986 to the present. I am writing this letter to express my growing concerns in regards to the NHSAA/ASPCA – Maclay National Championship for the ASPCA Horsemanship class which has been held for the past two years under the show title of “The Metropolitan Horse Show at Pier 94”. I am one of the few people at our stable who had the chance to experience the ASPCA Maclay Finals in its hey day while it was held at the Madison Square Garden venue. I was also fortunate enough to have won this prestigious class in 1987 and then presented the “ASPCA Horsemanship Trophy” in 1988 while the class was still held at the Garden. The junior riders today were born in 1986 or later, so if you do the math the juniors of today have no memories of the old Garden.


This leads to my next point. The riders of today are being educated by their trainers, parents, riders and professionals of our industry. Once these people lose the memories of the ASPCA Final as it used to be, or these memories diminish or are replaced by scarred memories-this class will lose its importance to the young riders of today who are the future of this horse industry. I recognize that times change, people change, and horse shows change. I try to be optimistic and believe that change is for the good. I can honestly say that I am truly disappointed and saddened by the direction the ASPCA Maclay Finals is going. Maybe I have a special place in my heart to see this class presented in a manner that makes it feel as important as junior riders are being told that it is, and professionals , at least for the time being, believe that it is.

I have been allowed to help manage the junior careers of many top riders in the country with the help of my husband, Frank Madden. I feel strongly that it is our responsibility to take any necessary action to make appropriate decisions for our customers in regards to the horse industry, and this includes the horse shows we choose and the horse shows we attend. My husband has been involved with numerous top riders during their junior careers such as Chris Kappler, Molly Ashe, and Candice King just to name a few. If young riders are not managed correctly, they will not continue with the sport and go on to represent the United States and follow their dreams.


This year was a special year for me as I attended the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, Greece to support our U.S. team and my sister in-law Beezie Madden. The experience was truly great on so many levels. One of the things that became so clear is that on any level, there are challenges to face and answer. I have never been to an event that had such a force behind the organization, which was absolutely refreshing. What I also learned is that no matter how fantastic a venue is, if some of the basic essentials are not met, it will be impossible to hold a great event for the athletes or the spectators. I know what I saw at the Olympic Games, people and horses that worked their whole lives to obtain a chance at their dream, and committees in place to help them do so. I saw a beautiful venue with great seating for the spectators, easy access, good parking, plentiful and clean bathrooms, access to reasonably priced food, and nice weather. I saw stabling areas designed for the welfare of the horse with several riding areas to properly prepare the show jumping athletes, including longing rings and a full service veterinary clinic. With all this in place, the pinnacle event of our sport, the Olympic Games was plagued with problems that were all the result of improper footing for the type of show jumping that was to take place. It is proven, even at this level, that no matter how great everything else is, if the footing is not conducive for the event you are trying to hold, you don’t have much! Anyone involved in show jumping has read about the footing problems during the Olympics, but you don’t read much about how great everything else was.


My point in bringing this up is that I don’t believe the venue selected for the Metropolitan Horse Show even begins to compare with a venue like the Olympics and with that said the only way to overcome that hurdle is to go to extraordinary measures to make the things perfect that one can control, such as footing. When it became apparent the footing at the Olympics was problematic, you saw the course designer moving the fences between rounds and the jump crew tamping between rounds. I know the show management of the Metropolitan Horse Show was aware of the footing issue during the 2003 show, so with my optimistic viewpoint I was able to give the 2004 show a try.


I will only speak about what I know, namely the ASPCA Finals, as we did not show any hunters or jumpers at the Metropolitan. I was disappointed to hear on Wednesday that the ring had to be closed and longing discontinued due to footing issues. I kept telling myself to wait until Saturday night upon the arrival of our horses and staff to pass any sort of judgment. My husband and I arrived at 2:45 am to a horse show that looked like it was coming to a close, not a show that was going to showcase top national finals for the top 100 junior riders in the county. A few examples of this include: overflowing trash containers, trash on the ground surrounding the exercise area, the show ring and the seating area and no security to gain admittance to the public building or the stabling area. There was no visible schooling supervisor or steward and no visible ring maintenance crew, so my first impressions for this New Year were off to a rough start. Once we start to use the show ring, it became clear that we would have to adjust and cut our normal preparation due to the poor footing. From 2:45 am to 4:00 am the height of the two jumps in the ring was never changed from 2’6” – 2’9”, solely because nobody felt comfortable jumping these valuable horses any bigger. The horses broke out into an immediate sweat, struggling to maneuver in the deep, wet, and slick footing. The preparation for one of our most prestigious classes consisted of our riders being instructed to canter down the long side of the ring, trot the short end of the ring, and let the horses rest in five to ten minute intervals. This was all to try and prevent the horses from slipping and losing their confidence and trying to keep the horses from tying up. I was relieved to know that our horses had shipped in from a prior event so we had a chance of this new unplanned preparation schedule working. There were no officials from the management staff present during this time to my knowledge, so these problems may not have been apparent to them.
Beacon Hill had a horse break down last year at the Metropolitan, and it is clear on the video tape that the horse slipped off the ground and landed, unable to bear weight on his hind leg. John Madden said without a doubt, if Authentic were not at the Olympic Games they would not have shown him. I can honestly say in no uncertain terms that if our seven riders were not at the ASPCA Maclay finals, the horses would have been loaded on a truck by 7:00am shipping home to New Jersey.


I take offense to being asked to make that tough of a decision and feeling as if the welfare of the horses is being discarded. It is ironic that such a decision is required in a show associated with the ASPCA.


This is not being critical, it is a fact that our riders had to adjust their rides to suit the conditions, and they were not riding to the best of their ability in a championship setting. For the second round, fifteen riders were selected after Phase I and Phase II to compete in Phase III, three of whom were our students. We walked the course together and immediately realized there was a turn that would be extremely difficult to ride if the proper striding were done. So we made the united decision to do what we believed was best for the horse which was to add a stride in the line to create better balance upon the landing side of the jump before having to make to turn. We could not chance a horse and rider falling down during the ride-off. Coincidently, it was the same end of the ring where we lost one of our top horses to last year.


This was the first indoor show (after Marshall Sterling, Capital Challenge, Pennsylvania National, Washington International, and the Syracuse Invitational) where our equitation horses had to wear caulks for traction. We chose to leave them in for the flat phase which is unusual. After watching the first three horses slip in the turn that worried us, we had to switch to a larger size caulk that is normally used on jumpers in a grass turf ring. Frank and I did the best we could to keep the morale of the riders upbeat, knowing they felt the unstable footing. I know you would agree that a coach should not need to change plans due to conditions that are controllable. To further aggravate the situation, there was never a ring crew member raking, rolling, or tamping the footing to try and make the best of a bad situation. This to me showed a complete disregard for the people and animals who have supported this event and chased their dreams all year. It appeared to the spectators that the judges lost a top rider that had won two phases and was almost hurt due to the horse making a jumping error that could have resulted from a footing problem.


I have given this show two chances. I did notice some significant changes that were somewhat beneficial. The stabling area was much safer, the ring was a better size, and the schooling area was a different configuration. In my opinion the only chance you have to rise above the fact that a difficult venue has been selected would be to completely restructure and rebuild the footing that has been used in the past years. I have several questions that need to be answered before our clients will subject their horses to showing at the Metropolitan Horse Show during the ASPCA Maclay finals again. They are: 1) Does the National Horse Show own the footing that has been used the past two years? 2) If yes, is the entire quantity of the footing be used? 3) What changes do you think were made from 2003 to 2004 to improve the footing? 4) Do you think conditions at the 2004 Metropolitan were good enough to hold a National Championship? My reasons for needing these questions answered pertain to perspective. Show managers have their perspective, exhibitors have theirs, spectators have theirs, and trainers have their own as well. If the show manager’s perspective is that “the Metropolitan Horse Show is the best place for the ASPCA Finals and the footing was fine,” I will know there is just a conflict of perspective and we as Beacon Hill Show Stables should move on and make decisions we deem appropriate.


The most difficult thing for me to overcome is the fact the National Horse Show Board of Directors had a chance to hold the ASPCA Finals at the inaugural Syracuse Invitational Sporthorse Tournament. I saw the raw Pier 94 in September 2003, and I saw the raw Oncenter and War Memorial in November 2002. It was clear just comparing venue to venue that the Syracuse Invitational venue had a distinct advantage. In 2002 there was no traditional “National Horse Show” and people were feeling a void after the Washington International Horse Show. People are conditioned the same way as animals are. The show schedule in the past for the fall circuit was Pennsylvania National (Harrisburg), Washington International (Washington), and the National Horse Show (New York). In 2002 exhibitors were feeling lost with the disappearance of the traditional National Horse Show. John Madden followed his dream of running a world- class event in Syracuse and thought it only made sense with the disappearance of the National, to apply for those dates. John thought he could fill a void, suggest a home for the ASPCA and give the open jumper riders an innovative show to attend on their way to the Royal Winter Fair. On April 14, 2003, while the Syracuse Invitational construction was well under way, there was an announcement of the Metropolitan Horse Show, the National Indoor Horse Show, and the National Outdoor Horse Show. The Syracuse Invitational was told that the ASPCA Finals had a home at the Metropolitan Horse Show. With that news, the Syracuse Invitational came up with the Bates Equitation Finals and the Bates National Computer List.


When the ASPCA Maclay Finals were held at Madison Square Garden, the class was showcased between open jumper classes. The junior riders had the opportunity to ride in front of the very riders they admired and aspired to be. Many times they got to watch international riders they had only read about or watched on television. During this new millennium, the Washington International Equitation finals are the closest class the junior riders have to the way the old ASPCA Finals were presented. The ASPCA Maclay has the advantage of currently inviting 100 top riders to compete and the Washington Equitation Finals only has room for the top 30 riders. I believe this is part of what has made the ASPCA Maclay so special in the past and is being lost in the present. The current ASPCA Finals are currently being showcased in front of the younger peers in the junior field, the pony hunters. One of my fondest memories of winning the 1987 ASPCA Maclay Finals is being greeted at the out gate by William Steinkraus and being extended a heartfelt congratulations by George Morris and Leslie Burr (Howard).


If the National Horse Show board of directors is trying to “protect the integrity of the ASPCA-Maclay Championship,” why don’t the exhibitors who have worked so hard to support the class have any say in where the class is run? Does the National Horse Show Board of Directors really believe the quote from Alan Balch “…but also will make for some of the nicest indoor conditions that our competitors will ever have enjoyed, anywhere!” and “the rings will be the largest I know of at an indoor area and the schooling area is also very large for indoors.”? The articles all say, “The Maclay Finals needs to return to its birthplace, New York.” Is Syracuse in New York? Nobody seems to care about the integrity of the class, just the geographic location. Is that what this class is about now? The ASPCA Maclay phrase is “the Maclay class has served to educate young riders and instill in them sensitivity and respect for their equine partner.” Is this still true? Is the Metropolitan Horse Show providing this for the ASPCA Maclay Finalist?


I know running horse shows is a difficult task, as I am involved with one outdoor show and one indoor show each year. The one thing I am sure about is that you have to focus on what you can do well, and do it the best you can.
The 2008 Olympic venue in Beijing has four years to fix the problems that haunted the 2004 Olympic competition, the ASPCA Maclay junior finalists do not have four years! My only hope is that the committee of the National Horse Show will make decisions in regards to the ASPCA Maclay Finals based on what truly represents the best choice for the class and its riders and their equine partners.

Sincerely,

Stacia Klein Madden


Cc:
Members of the National Horse Show Association of America, LTD:
Jennifer Oz LeRoy Mrs. Robert Aron Mrs. Betty Jane Henry
Eugene R. Mische Alan F. Balch Mrs. John B. Holmes, Jr.
John Y.G. Walker, III William J. Berman, Esq. Louis M. Jacobs
Carolyn E. Vincent Melissa Cohn Suzanne T. Marquard
Bob B. Bell Leo G. Conroy Ernest M. Oare
Mrs. Thomas N. Armstrong, III Harry R. Gill

Other Industry Members:

Steven M. Elkman ( Chairman of the Board-ASPCA) William Steinkraus (USET Member)
Linda Tiramani (Coordinator Membership Services) Bill Moroney (Salamander Farms)
Heather Wallace (Hunter – ASPCA) Sheila Johnson ( President – WIHS)

Sally Ike (Director of Show Jumping USET)
Arden Hess (Director of Special Events) Mary Chapot ( Equitation Committee)
Penelope Ayers (Director of funding – ASPCA)
Jim Toon (JT Farms)
Anthony Bowers ( Descendant of Maclay) Louise Serio (Derbydown Stables)
Andre Digneli (Heritage Farms) Geoff Teall (Montoga Farms)
Missy Clark (North Run Stables) David O’Connor (President USEF)
Bob Braswell (Quiet Hill Farm) Jack Towell (Finally Farms)
Valerie Renihan (Fidlays Ridge Farm) Patty Harnois (Holly Hill Farm)
Tim Kees (Fairfield Hunt Club) Nick Karazissis (Far West Farm)
Karen Healey (Karen Healey Show Stables) Susie Schoellkopf (SBS Farms)
Beverly Bedard (USEF Steward) Carol Thompson (Quiet Winter Farms)
Janet McCarroll (USEF Steward) Judy Richter (Coker Farms)
Linda Allen (USEF Judge) Ronnie Beard ( Wyndmont Stables)
Chrystine Tauber (USEF Judge) John Long (CEO – USEF)
Richard Feldman (Lake Placid Show)
Michael Page (USEF Judge)
Dr.John Steele (Veterinarian)
Kip Rosenthal (USEF Judge)
Arthur Hawkins (USEF Judge)
Holly Hugo-Vidal (USEF Judge)
Randy Mullins (USEF Judge)
Rita Timpanero (USEF Judge)
Jeff Wirthman (USEF Judge)
Christina Scluyesmeyer (Quiet Hill Farm)
Kenny Kraus (USEF Judge)
Thom Brede (USEF Judge)
Cynthia Hankins (USEF Judge)
Margie Hough (USEF Judge)
Kennith Wheeler (Cismont Manor Farm)
John Barker (USEF Judge)
Scott Hofstetter (USEF Judge)
Scott Williamson (USEF Judge) Archie Cox (Brookway Stables)
George Morris (Hunterdon) Linda Andrisani (USEF Judge)
Joe Fargis (Sandron) Susan Ashe (USEF Judge)
Joe Thorpe (Monarch International) Michael D’Ambrosio (USEF Judge)
Patricia Applegate (Arwen Stables) Wendy Ritter (Seabreeze Farm)
Linda Hough (Arwen Stables) Tom Brennan (USEF Steward)
Jim Hagman (Elven Star Farms) Susie Humes (USEF Judge)
Leslie Burr Howard (Fairfield Hunt Club) Linda Esau (USEF Judge)
Conrad Homfeld (USEF Coarse Designer) David Distler (UESF Steward)
Patti Scialfa Springsteen (Stone Hill Farm) Peter Doubleday (USEF Steward)
Toni Goutal (Cloverleaf Farm)
Tom Wright (All Seasons Farms)
Caroline Moran (Goshen Hill Farm)
Jane F. Clark (Former President-USEF)
Jim Doyle (Gotham North)
Alex R. Jayne (Our Day Farm)

[khobstetter]

Stacia and FastandClean...

I am on the Show Standards Committee for the USHJA and while there has been no Chairman named at this point I will be certain to see this is addressed at the very least. The Committee will meet via Conference call the first week in December and I will try to get this on the agenda in some form.

We cannot lose the use of our Equitation horses BUT at the same time we cannot lose "the Garden"...even if it is now out on some Pier... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Please copy me on anything further about this..thanks.

[FastandClean]

Khobstetter-
Thank you for your response. I will forward it to the Maddens. Please send me your contact information so Stacia can be in touch should she need to.

[Heather Dobbs]

the footing situation definitely needs to be addressed. a junior jumper fell down in a turn, then an amateur jumper fell in the same corner a day later. i saw eq horses slipping(including mine) in the middle of tight turns on the course, and my hunter even slipped. the footing was just not safe. i'm all for keeping the national horse show in nyc, amd i'm sure that something can be done to fix the problems.

[pinkhorse]

Goodness gracious. I'm about as far out of the loop on this as it's possible to be but did read the whole thing trying to figure out what she was trying to say. An editor would have helped.

By the end I wasn't sure if she was hoping that the problems at the National could be fixed or if she was hoping only to get the class to come to her (?) horse show in Syracuse. Maybe I need to know the players to know what is actually being said here. I guess I kind of think so.

Anyone in the know care to drop this tome down into what it was she was actually trying to say?

[khobstetter]

FastandClean..

I am sending you a PM (PT)...

[Policy of Truth]

Wow....long, well-thought out letter...

Though I've never been the level of rider to ride in this most prestigious show/class, I remember my former coach telling me of her days riding in the Medals and Maclays. Honestly, after the past several years reports from both trainers and riders, it sounds like it HAS changed...

I had heard there were footing issues at the pier, but I had no idea the extent of them...not that my opinion matters much, but I really hope the powers that be will take this letter into serious consideration, as trainers and riders should NEVER have to choose between safety and their culmination of years of hard work....most ESPECIALLY if the conditions can be controled. I know things happen and sometimes that choice HAS to be made, but why should someone have to make such an awful, heart-wrenching decision...for something that could be fixed?

[BLBGP]

What horse was lost last year?

[Hopeful Hunter]

I'm nowhere near this loop, but from what I've learned of this industry for a major player to make a very public stand on an issue is a BIG DEAL. Kudos to Ms. Madden for having the courage to face a serious issue head on, and let's hope that her candor and concern mark a new respect for the horses who compete. It will be interesting to see what becomes of this.

[Fiction]

What a GREAT letter. I've heard a ton of complaints about the Met, especially about the footing, and I'm glad to see someone's taking a stand.

BLBGP- I believe Abby Carpenter's eq horse slipped badly in the second round of last year's Maclay final, and was hurt. I havn't heard anything about the horse since, which makes me worry it was seriously injured.

[Risey27]

All I can say is WHAT A GREAT LETTER!!! It's about time that we set high standards for the "TOP" shows in the country...especially on the footing issue...and yes it was Abby's horse that got hurt and I have talked to Abby about her horse and he may never beable to do the 3'6 eq again...Good for the Maddens for finally taking a stand and putting horses FIRST

[Madame Butterfly]

Nice letter. Hope someone hears and repairs the footing....

[Madame Butterfly]

And works on the trash issue as well...

[Heather Dobbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
What horse was lost last year? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cooper Union. he was Abby Carpenter's eq horse, as people have already mentioned.

[M. O'Connor]

One of the most telling points of that letter is the issue of "institutional memory loss."

We are starting to forget that "the Garden" was not just about a bunch of hype--it really was just as good as the old timers contend that it was where it really counts: in the competion arena.

It really was the scene of some of the best national and international showjumping that has ever taken place--the highest levels, with the best riders in the world. Along with the the most outstanding hunters of the day. Don't forget the saddlebreds, and the roadsters (talk about "bling!"). The Maclay finals were the icing on a very rich cake indeed.

You can't uphold a tradition without upholding its standards. You can't uphold the standards without remembering how high they were.

[JulieMontgomery]

God, I hope she used paragraph breaks in the actual letter she sent out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Drifter]

Well said Stacia!

[Andrew]

BRAVO Stacia!!!!!!!!!! Lets just hope the old and older goats think of horses & riders and not thier Bank Accounts & ego's and move forward NOW on a solution without endless and unneed buracratic meetings upon meetings!!!! FIX IT.....

[Gold Dust]

Stacia Madden has just sent a letter that has been the talk for quite some time now. Be it that you run within that circle or the circle of your own on a smaller scale it is about time someone of this stature has sent this letter on and included a list of names that shows plenty of known support by the people that can and do make changes in this sport. Be it long, be it no paragraph brakes or what have you it still went back to those well needed points-'The Garden', and horse safety/footing issues.

My question to Fastandclean who was nice enough to take the time and share it with this message board this letter, how do we, the 'little guy' keep track of the life of this letter past this thread? Many people are not on all the time and some don't come on at all that would be very interested and supportive to this request?

We all know that to this day, some letters sit in the 'cold case files' and to this day people will talk, whatever happened to that letter? Although I feel this possibly will not, and surely recieve some well needed attention.

[buryinghill1]

Sorry to hear the National has gone down the drain. It should have been buried at The Meadowlands http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Why should the Syracuse show inherit the Maclay finals? No mention of any other venues. Isn't this a little self-serving? Does the author have a financial stake in the event? Just curious...
The Maclay was held at WIHS a couple of years ago, wasn't it? Too bad that fell through.

[adhock]

I was really impressed by the tone and candor of Stacia's letter. It is particularly strong (and gutsy) given the timing with the story on Beacon Hill in this week's Chronicle (see home page). After showing at Indoors two years ago, we made the decision not to send our eq horse and junior jumper to Indoors because the risk/benefit did not justify the cost (average of $30,000/horse when coming from the West Coast). For us, this is a huge outlay of cash and represents a major family commitment. Add to that the time spent on logistics, flying back and forth on red-eyes so your junior can keep up with school, finding layover facilities, etc., and the decision to pull a horse out of a finals class because of dangerous footing becomes even more difficult. The continous problems with the Washington venue, and now the problems with the Metropolitan, will make us focus on other goals. How sad. But even if people try to fix the problem, what assurances can be made to someone flying a horse across the country for one or two classes!

[Snowbird]

BUT! It's over and the question is that we need to start a new tradition. Nothing new is ever going to measure up to the ambiance of the Garden. Then however, every kid in America knew if they won a Blue ribbon or two they could ride in that fabulous ring. Even it was at 5 AM and there were no spectators but Mom and Dad.

I also remember people complaining the ring was too small, I remember people complaining the stabling was too tight and uncomfortable to manage. I remember wondering if we could get our horse down the escalator if there was a fire.

I remember the traffic jam with trailers and vans because 33rd Street isn't very big. I remember the Maclay horses standing in the vans in the cold and dark. I remember trying to lunge our horses in front of the Felt Forum in easy boots. I remember no more than 10 at any time could be inside and there were 400/500 kids qualified. The horses went from 40 degrees and the dark, standing in the van from midnight to get parking, and after having shipped in for who knows how many hours. The Maclay kids ran around the streets all night. I remember my daughter talking a MacDonald into letting her come in to use the bathroom because they were not open all night using the excuse she was pregnant. I remember the horses going from the cold dark up the ramp to the schooling area where it was brightly lit and 90 degrees having 10 minutes to enter the ring. I remember the kids who went early not even being able to watch anyone go because they were getting their horse ready.

AND WE LOVED EVERY MINUTE.

So there's a new show in town "Metropolitan". Last year they crtics said it was very nice for a Local Show. It catered to the interests of spectators. Whinning and complaining by the exhibitors they changed the format this year.

So this year they had a receptions and parties and made the show for the exhibitors. They did what they could for elegance and ambiance. It will grow and change just as Devon started as a Country Fair with all volunteers. The Metropolitan will grow and evolve.

But, the truth is that Ms.Madden wants the Maclay for her brother-in-law in Syracuse and thinks that would be a better venue.

The truth is the the Open Equitation has shrunk to the point where no one really has to work to qualify, they just need to stay on. Well, that's where it too started. I remember talking to Frank Chapot who also won it and he told me that the winner was the one who stayed on.

The Local show was recognized just to support the Madal and Maclay classes. In the glory days days you couldn't find a Maclay class with less than 25 in the class. Every child had the dream. As a show Manager my big worry was that the class had to start by midnight and if there were 50 we had to split. I haven't had that problem in 10 years.

Now if the Maddens have some good ideas on how we can increase participation in the Maclay, if they have ideas on how the small shows can fill these classes with legitimate entries. If they can think of new motivators to increase the size of all the classes so that the qualifying is more difficult that would really impress me. It breaks my heart that where here we always filled these classes now half the time we can't. I think equitation is critical to the welfare of this sport and we need to work on making it all better.

[Madame Butterfly]

I've not been up to Syracuse...but if the footing is great up there..then why not? Just because the Madden's are related? Who cares? Why not help support a family that helps support this business...

NYers, for one, should be happy to have the Maclay remain in NY...

Frankly, I wasn't that impressed with the show on the Pier last year....the NYC scene is just very difficult now, I don't care which celebrity is involved in trying to make it great! And it's honorable if they are involved...

The most important feature of a show is its footing....Next, its accessibility....

If the footing has been bad for two years in a row, well, that's a huge, huge issue.

Why should NY lose the show altogether...and why isn't Syracuse a viable option?

[Snowbird]

Because it isn't as central or exciting as Manhattan. I thought the Piers were a beautiful setting. I'm sure the reception cruising the Hudson was amazing. I didn't hear complaints last year about the footing at all. Linda Allen did an amazing job course designing in the narrower ring. I loved being able to walk outside and see the night lights on the river. There's a park right next to the Pier and you can walk along the river for miles.

Footing is tricky look, at the Olympics, even they had a problem. Nothing in life is ever as perfect as we would like for everyone. There is no receipe book for footing. There are some experts who can be consulted. Why throw away the baby with the bath water? Last year it was warmer, maybe the footng was deeper whatever it was there are experts to deal with it.

I think the real question is whether the National Horse Show is a showcase which will improve interest in this sport from the non-horse people or is it just our show for the exhibitors?

[Madame Butterfly]

Listen, Snowbird, you are a very informed, very politically astute, and very smart woman and horsewoman.

But frankly, I disagree. Of course, Linda Allen is an amazing course designer (I have her book...)

But I'm not impressed with the Manhattan setting. I don't care how many cruises there are.

You can disagree. That's fine. But I think it's time for a change.

[Silver Bells]

Stacia's letter is right on point. No matter where the finals are held, the competition deserves the "pomp and ceremony", the attention to detail, good conditions, and recognition. We may never be able to capture "the way things used to be", but those taking over the reins can make sure they follow in the footsteps of a grand tradition. I say let the membership help decide the best solution.

[Snowbird]

Madame Butterfly I think it's fine to have honest differences of opinion. Dialog about the pro and con of every idea is an asset. Sometimes I even play the devil's advocate on an issue just to show there is more than one harmony in a concerto.

[Madame Butterfly]

I know that....you little devil you....

And it's good to play out all the pros and ocns....NYC is the greatest city in the world...But to show there, ugh!!! Even if the place had great footing, it's a pain in the arse.

And how many horses do you know that have enjoyed the cruises? Know any that had "in&out" martinis while schmoozing on the Pier?!? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[JAGold]

My mom used to take me into NY to see the National Horse Show. It was a big deal -- I'd count down the days, save my pennies to go shopping, buy a big glossy program, gawk at all of the famous riders who I only saw in magazines during the rest of the year.

We moved to the midwest shortly after the National moved out of the Garden. I hadn't been in years, but I'm back in New Jersey now. So when I saw the advertisments for this year's show, I called up a couple of friends of mine who'd never been. I told them the stories about going to the show with my mom when I was a kid, and how glamourous and exciting it all was. We bought tickets, and once again I was counting down the days until the National.

Only this time, I was disappointed, and I'm pretty sure my friends think I'm nuts. This show had very little showmanship to it at all. Showbird asks " whether the National Horse Show is a showcase which will improve interest in this sport from the non-horse people or is it just our show for the exhibitors." I think that this year's Metropolitian was neither. Exhibitors had to put up with a very small ring and terrible footing (I watched one A/O jumper fall down at the far end of the ring and several others in that and the open class slip), and spectators were packed into small bleachers at the ends of the ring. There wasn't any exciting shopping -- in fact, most of the vendors were closed during the Friday evening session! There was a small clock, but no scoreboard. The entertainment between the two classes was a not particularly well executed drill team performance.

I think that promoting this show to non-horsey people as a showcase to improve interest in the sport will only lead to disappointment. If we tell non-horsey people that this is amongst the best our sport has to offer, I sure wouldn't blame them for being disappointed. I was. --Jess

[Silver Bells]

It's time we start thinking about the horses!! Certain sites are deinitely not "horse friendly".

[Mom]

Footing: an IMPORTANT issue at many shows - a topic for show standards, definitely. Perhaps better addressed both with show standards committee and with the show manager. While using a valid point about footing, this appears to be a public appeal for the Syracuse show venue. Why not just say so?

[Madame Butterfly]

Mom, I don't think it's just a public appeal for the Syracuse show venue....but I do believe that it's a factor in Ms. Madden's letter....

I maintain that there are alot of factors, not just footing. Accessibility, parking, costs, ...the current site just isn't as glamorous as it used to be (and I wasn't there in the glamour days...)...

You know, Mom, lotsa people have difficulty with change.

I don't know Stacia or John...but I do think they have integrity. And I don't think that her appeal is purely a selfish one. If someone offers their home for a party, does that mean that they are selfish? So they'll make some money...so what? Nobody minds others making money...(the WEllington people, the Hits people...)

I don't think I've ever met a person who doesn't have the taddest bit of a personal agenda in mind...even you, perhaps.

If Syracuse is not a good place for this Maclay, then people should offer better reasons for why or why not. Because I haven't heard any good reasons yet. Maybe just a little jealousy.

[J. Turner]

We may never have the ambiance of the Garden again, but I agree with Ms. Madden in that a national final deserves excellent footing and some preening of the venue to create the pomp and circumstance that should make the Maclay a "must attend."

Granted New England Finals do not have the benefit of being sandwiched in between a distinguished international jumper field and traditional hunter stake classes or mainstay exhbitions like the Mounties and the "Good Hands" Final. However, the all-volunteer committee make the best of a small venue at a traditional Yankee Fairgrounds. I'm not saying to take the Maclay there, but that you can create something special that the kids look forward to all year without the aura of the Garden. They do such special things there - a banquet and slide show honoring "graduating" junions, a challenge of the states, and very importantly a Horsemanship Final. Can you imagine if we had the time to actually incorporate horsemanship into ASPCA Horsemanship Finals. The irony should not be lost on anyone that this class is named for the Society for Protection of Cruelty to Animals. Let's not make juniors have to make a decision between Scylla and Charybdis - participating in a hallowed final on footing poor for the welfare of their mounts and not participating in an event that is the culmination of a junior career. Let's showcase the Maclay as a true Horsemanship Finals, or at least make it a second award as at New Englands. After all, aren't so many people complaining that we aren't turning out horsemen? If we build it, they will come.

[Madame Butterfly]

I like that, JT. If we build it, they will come... from Horsefield of Dreams....Xcountry of Dreams...

[Mom]

MButterfly - I too agree with almost all of what she says - I only hope her mention of the Syracuse show doesn't dilute the basic premise that improvement(s) are necessary. Perhaps I didn't express that clearly enough. No agenda here, anyway. She's basically right in what she says.

[Just My Style]

I attended the Garden every year (starting in 1980) as a kid, because it fell on my birthday weekend and that was all I ever wanted to do to celebrate it. I used to sit and watch ALL of the Maclay with many of my barn friends. Every trip. Every flat section. EVERYTHING. It was an amazing education and remember the prestige of it all.

I saw Stacia win the Maclay and I know where she is coming from. I agree whole heartedly with her letter. I don't believe that she is suggesting that the only solution is John's show. What she is suggesting is that if the Metropolitan can not be pulled off in a successful and safe manner, then she (because of her passion for the Maclay specifically) feels that maybe the Maclay should be relocated. I haven't attended the Metropolitan, so I really can't comment on the venue. What I can say is that she is correct in saying that the equitation finals are losing their prestige. Even locally, GHJA cancelled the regular medal finals all together for lack of interest. It is sad really. Years back, the equitation classes were the foundation for the future of the sport. Now I am not so sure.

Thanks Stacia for a great letter. I wish you the best in preserving the finals.

[Madame Butterfly]

Thanks for the response, Mom...I don't know the political side of all this....but it seems that when John Madden was putting together the Syracuse thing...there was a bit of hoopla (so to speak...Again, my clipped vocabulary --and it seems to be getting shorter everyday!) So I don't think she has to even mention Syracuse...the oldtimers/oldschool will put the words in her mouth anyway.

And I definitely have no agenda. I don't work with the people. I'm not involved with the Maclay in any way. And I don't care who or who doesn't like me for saying what I do. So I see things from a very 3rd person viewpoint.

Sometimes people are so protective about their little piece of power in this business...that change never happens. It's too bad.

Gotta run...was supposed to be at the barn 3 hours ago...where does the time go...

[Snowbird]

Exactly, J.Turner and every new idea needs time to develop it's own personality. There are things that were better this year, there were things that were very different and of course some things like the weather which can't be planned for. From what I remember from last year no the NHS does not own the footing it was supplied by the City of New York. The weather was very rainy and all the soil was soaked. It isn't going to dry very quickly on the river.

Sometimes, the unexpected happens to everyone. I'm sure there have been horses that fell down even under superb conditions especially on grass. At the Olympics I understand the problem was the sod didn't get to root because of the excessive heat. You can bet that after having the problem it will be fixed. But, just as surely there will be new problems from new decisions.

Maybe the one to blame is Mayor Bloomberg if it was New York dirt, but wait a minute his daughter won big on that same footing so I guess he wouldn't think there was anything wrong at all. Her fences were higher and she had to ride faster so you'll never convince Bloomberg there was anything wrong with New York dirt.

I heard the entries were way up which why the show went so late. I think no one would have risked their horses if in the other classes and divisions there had been any major problem. They sure would scratch and go home, in New Jersey, in a hurry if the footing was unsafe.

I think the first step to making the Maclay Special again is for it to become popular again. The fact that there has been such a drop in interest in the equitation is a really serious problem.

I wonder if any of these new young trainers remember the almost 100 volunteers on all the committees at the NHS, I haven't seen that list in a long time. Volunteers covered everything from the office to the 3 AM schooling.

I think everyone who wants to see a better Metroplitan should send a letter and volunteer their services for the advance planning and the operation of the show. I would bet that Gene Mische would welcome Frank Madden on the committee in charge of the footing. Maybe Bruce Springsteen would sponsor the footing so it would be just perfect next year. No doubt in my mind that if Frank Madden, Bruce Springsteen and Mayor Bloomberg got together to help, the Metropolitan would be made really spectacular.

[M. O'Connor]

Well, as a past WINNER, and current trainer of winners, I think that Stacia Madden is qualified as well as entitled to express her opinion about the conduct of the Maclay finals, AND to offer an alternative (and perhaps better suited) venue for them to take place in.

Moreover, disemminating her letter far and wide is likely aimed at stimulating discussion among a wide variety of people in the industry who do not have a vested interest in where the finals are held. Presumeably, any decisions made as a result of such a discussion will be fairly made and in the best interests of the competitors and their horses.

[Snowbird]

Me Too! Madame Butterfly. I fell in love with a gaited horse named "Golden Comet". I remember when the seats were all filled and on Puissance night you'd be lucky to get a seat.

I will always remember Sally Wheeler in the Fine Harness section driving with long white cocktail gloves and a beautiful sequined gown. To a little girl from Jersey that was the ultimate elegance. Even then though they knew hunters were boring so it was the first class while people were being seated. A 7 piece live band played the background music. And the last class was the Galloping Granpa Harry DeLeyer in Jumpers.

It's very sad that those gracious times have passed us by now. Rap and loud metal music just wouldn't make it at a horse show. I miss the foxtrot and tango too. If I can adjust to new ideas then so can you so let's get on with it.

[JAGold]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Maybe the one to blame is Mayor Bloomberg if it was New York dirt, but wait a minute his daughter won big on that same footing so I guess he wouldn't think there was anything wrong at all. Her fences were higher and she had to ride faster so you'll never convince Bloomberg there was anything wrong with New York dirt.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This just doesn't make sense. Do you really think that 1) the Mayor's office handles the provision of dirt for a sporting event or 2) the Mayor personally is involved in planning logistical details of private sports events in NYC? Also, just because Georgina Bloomberg won her classes does not mean she thinks the footing was perfect -- it just means she handled it well. Unless you've spoken with her about the footing, I don't think you have any way of knowing whether or not she thinks there was anything wrong with the "New York dirt."

Also, I really don't think that they simply bring dirt straight up from the riverbank, which is what you seem to be implying with comments like "The weather was very rainy and all the soil was soaked. It isn't going to dry very quickly on the river." At the very least, soil would have to be sifted, and wet soil can't be sifted... --Jess

[J. Turner]

Snowbird, You mentioned before that 300 qualified for the Maclay back in the days of yore, much like the Medal now. There is a double edged sword to that, and I'm not even sure which side I'm on.

Does offering the big eq at local shows dilute the talent pool? Perhaps the standards need to be enforced better. I'm tired of people qualifying over 3' - 3'3" courses at Silvermine and Folly Farm with a person filling in last minute in chaps because so and so's didn't show up "as promised." (I'm not saying this happens at your shows, Snowbird. Don't take this personally. I have a friend who lived in PA and loved your shows for her kids and green bean.) If 200 people qualify legitimately, fine. And I've seen the standard of the courses fall even at small A shows when standards are low. I don't think it does a national championship a service to have under qualified people there. It should be the elite.

Now, that said, I don't want to exclude anyone talented for lack of money. Perhaps we need more programs in place like the one at the Capital Challenge where the local kids came in for the show. Trainers shouldn't be charities, but at the same time, the industry shouldn't exclude a person because of social reasons. As many times as I read about hard on their luck working student makes good, you know 25 more either were turned down or got the line, "We don't do outside lessons," or "If you don't have your own horse, we can't teach you."

There is the idea of a rating system being in place for the quality of horse shows, which is sketchy because of the criteria. However, ultimately, a national championship needs to have la creme de la creme. Either qualifying standards need to be governed better, or the qualifying classes need only to be held at quality shows. Perhaps, they should only be considered "qualifiers" if a certain rating judge is present - can 'r's' do rated shows? That would make sense. If a large R does a local show, and s/he is responsible for the the course being up to snuff, then it is a qualifying class. Or, some judges have mused if they could only give out NO blue ribbons. Perhaps a judge could deem that none of the trips were of finals caliber. Give out your 1 - 6 ribbons, but it's not a qualifying class. If you required numerical scoring you could set a standard, as in dressage for getting your medals, under which is not a qualiable score.

Well, I got off on a tangent, but maybe it's still a little on topic.

[Snowbird]

OH! Please cut me a break!

No I don't think that Mayor Bloomberg selected the dirt and had it delivered. I don't think I implied that but since the buck stops at the Mayor's desk you go ahead and blame him. I'm sure the Pier arranged with the Shade Tree Department who then hired the Teamsters to deliver it to the Longshoremen.

Then they had a tete-a-tete trying to decide if the Teamsters had to put it on the Pier or the Longshoreman. They couldn't decide so instead they imported the dirt from New Jersey. Now, McGreevey as one of his last acts in office decided to sabotage New York because he wants the business from New York to move to Jersey so he sent clay instead of top soil. Yep! McGreevey ordered it frm the bottom of the Raritan River Bed.

[Fiction]

I've heard nothing but positive things about Syracuse every year. Yes, it's not in the heart of NYC, but if it's a better venue for the horses, and has more of an impressive feel, then why not.

[Snowbird]

J. Turner, I don't blame you as a show Manager I hate it when I know that 3 of the six are having their entries paid by the other three and therefore feel compelled to lose. I think it's insulting to the judge. We actually had a calamity because at one show the Judge picked a filler to win.

We don't lower our fences. The more stringent you make the qualifying the more you keep eliminating groups of people. Entries go down and so does the quality. The decline started with the restricted number accepted at the Garden. We were there the first year they had a ride-off at Overpeck.

The next problem was the propaganda that there was no point in competing without a horse that cost $250,000 that wiped out most of the other kids. Even a one year lease was more than most could afford.

In the 70's and 80's every horse jumped 3'6". I have a Rule book from 1940 and nothing under 3'6" for horses was even offered. Imagine a mainden horse jumped 3'6" and literally had never won a blue ribbon.

We need to find new motivators and we need to stop telling anyone how much a horse cost or didn't cost.

You see the judge's in that time did not include the horse in their judging standards. It wouldn't have mattered if the horse was lame. Only the rider was being judged. Judges could tell the difference and were allowed to judge what was a rider error and what was a horse error. We didn't count strides. The fences were judged if they were safely executed if the arc was proper but the horse snapped it's knees, was a littled rounded jumping had it's head too high didn't matter at all. The horse might play in the corners but if it wsn't the riders fault because they weren't fussing with the bit then it worked for the judge.

Imagine, they didn't even deduct if the rider wasn't skinny or if the rider had a short leg. Just the riding was what mattered. Harry Hall breeches were the rage and I don't think Tailored Sportsman had even even hit the market yet.

[Stacia Madden]

Heather Dobbs- Many people seem to feel that it would be nice to have to a show in NYC. My feeling after reading all of the press releases last year regarding the venue selection is that the Board felt strongly the had exhausted all the NYC avenues, the Pier is what they came up with. It sounds like this is the best of what is available. Then we have to make a decision to what is important as exhibitors: a good venue or a show in NYC. Thanks for your input. Feel free to send replies to "savethemaclay@hotmail.com".

[Melzy]

Back to the original topic.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif .... I think Stacia's letter was very informative and insightful. Wherever the class is held, it needs all the pomp and circumstance it deserves.
If another venue can offer better conditions, footing, etc. why not give them a chance? The Maddens would have my vote because of their passion and dedication for improvement. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Best wishes Stacia.

[Stacia Madden]

Fiction-

I only suggested Syracuse because as I stated in my letter-I will only state what I know about. I attended Syracuse both years and Metro both years. Syracuse is a show that is already in place. Anyone passoniate about this class might offer their own suggestions to be heard, this was just mine. Feel free to respond to "savethemaclay@hotmail.com". Thanks

[Stacia Madden]

Melzy-

Thanks for your poat. Feel free to reply to "savethemaclay@hotmail.com".

[Stacia Madden]

Pinkhorse-

Sorry for the paragraph problem. I did not post this letter on this site. I mailed this letter to the people that were cc. Somebody else has posted this letter here. I would be happy to send you a copy or answer any questions you might have. My intent was only to raise awareness and suggest an alternative. Anybody who has ideas should voice them. Feel free to respond to "savethemaclay@hotmail.com"

[Stacia Madden]

Pacificsolo-

Thanks for your post. Please feel free to express you feelings on "savethemaclay@hotmail.com". This way I can keep track of suggestions.

[Stacia Madden]

Risey27-
Thanks for your post. Please write to savethemaclay@hotmail.com with any ideas or thoughts.

[Stacia Madden]

JulieMontgomery-

Sorry for the condition of the letter. That letter was mailed out by US mail to the people that I cc. I did not post that letter to this site, however, it does have paragraphs. I would be happy to send you a copy or answer any questions you have. Sorry for the problem!

[Stacia Madden]

Gold Dust-

Please keep informed by writing the email "savethemaclay@hotmail.com". This place people can write down their thoughts privately and we can see where it goes. If there is enough support, maybe we can start a website!

[Stacia Madden]

buryinghill 1-

The maclay was held at WIHS two years ago. This was a result of trainers, riders, parents, and family getting together. The maclay was possibly scheduled to be run in Florida that year. During the Devon show, all got together,signed a petition and voiced opinions. We as a unit suggested the idea of speaking to WIHS about the possibility of hosting the aspca on short notice. We were told they could only make room in the schedule for approx. 20 riders. So if you remember the riders who had already made it through regonials had to then compete at the Capital Challenge venue for the 20 slots at WIHS. A good short term answer, not the the cure to the problem. The following year was the inaugural year of Pier 94. I was only tying to suggest an option that was already present regarding Syracuse. That show is off and running, with or without the aspca. I was merely suggesting something that I knew was already in place. Please feel free to respond to "savethemaclay@hotmail.com" if you want your suggestions noted. Thanks for your interest. I would be happy to answer any questions.

[Stacia Madden]

Snowbird-

I do not think you are a qualified mindreader. My reason for suggesting Syracuse has nothing to do with my brother in-law. There is a board of directors that runs that show, not just John. I would honor any ideas for a better ASPCA class. The idea of Syracuse was presented because it is a show that is in place with seating, a beautiful area, grand prix riders, international riders, and plentiful stabling that already has recognized dates. I am sorry that venue selection has turned into a decussion about todays equitation riders. I think the reason the smaller shows have smaller turn out is that there are more shows available today, so people have choices. The well run shows with good show standards are thriving.

[SED]

I'm curious about the fact that there appears to be a consensus that juniors have less interest in equitation than they used to. I don't see that here in the "hinterlands". I do see juniors rushing into the jumper ring instead of staying in hunters, due to the difficulty of competing in hunters unless you have a very expensive horse?

Also, in earlier years was it necessary to have a special equitation horse? I know I am naive, but I wonder whether the need to have a specialist horse in equitation which I read about on this BB all the time (at the highest levels at least) cause a loss of interest?

I don't suspect that my daughter would ever be Maclay material, but she if she was, she certainly couldn't do it on her hunter, and I couldn't afford two horses....

[Stacia Madden]

Mom-

As I have stated in other posts, I only memtioned Syracuse as an alternative. What is your suggestion, please write to "savethemaclay@hotmail.com." Syracuse was a huge success without the ASPCA, which is why I thought the riders of today might enjoy it. I had a chance to watch these international riders this year while at the Olympics, I thought the young riders might have enjoyed watching them at Syracuse. Sorry if I offened you, but this letter was written to the Board of Directors. I did not post this letter on this site.

[Stacia Madden]

Snowbird-

"No doubt in my mind that if Frank Madden, Bruce Springsteen and Mayor Bloomberg got together to help, the Metropolitan would be made really spectacular."


Do you really think a Trainer, a rock star, and a mayor is enough to overcome the problem of a poor venue selection?

[khobstetter]

Stacia...

Do not apologize for trying to make a difference and improve our sport!!!! PLEASE do not do that.

Anything we can do out here, count on us...others may not agree on ANYTHING OTHER than the Maclay needs help...BUT AT LEAST THEY AGREE ON SOMETHING!!

You go girl and let us know what ever it is you need from us to return quality to that class!!!

[Stacia Madden]

To all who would like to read more about the Syracuse show, you can find all the info and pictures at "www.syracuseinvitational.com". This might clarify my reason for suggesting this as an alternative. Please write any other suggestions to "savethemaclay@hotmail.com" Thank You.

[the eleven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
It's very sad that those gracious times have passed us by now. Rap and loud metal music just wouldn't make it at a horse show. I miss the foxtrot and tango too. If I can adjust to new ideas then so can you so let's get on with it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING?

[J. Turner]

Stacia -

What is the actual email? www.savethemaclay.com (http://www.savethemaclay.com) is a url.

I'm sorry about leading the thread the wrong way about eq riders.

-- Jessica

[Stacia Madden]

J.Turner -

Sorry ,I am new the this internet stuff. "savethemaclay@hotmail.com" is an email account I set up so people have a place to express their ideas. My hope is people who support change will identify who they are.

[Hasty]

Stacia-

Best of luck to you in your efforts! Hopefully the powers that be will figure out something that will both keep the Maclay thriving and keep the horses and riders safe!

[JulieMontgomery]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stacia Madden:
JulieMontgomery-

Sorry for the condition of the letter. That letter was mailed out by US mail to the people that I cc. I did not post that letter to this site, however, it does have paragraphs. I would be happy to send you a copy or answer any questions you have. Sorry for the problem! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, now..... no apologies necessary. I should have kept my comments to myself.......and I apologize for the snarky remark. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I'm just old and nearsighted and can't read a lot of verbiage at once. And even when I can, my brain can no longer keep up with what I'm reading. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Your letter was well thought out..... and kudos to you for taking the time to jump into the situation.

Good luck.

[WWCountry]

Does anyone else remember when part of the fall indoor circuit included a show in downtown Philadelphia? I went there as a pre-teen and remember it having the same pomp and ceramony as the Garden. Whatever happened to that show?
Phila. has some great sports arenas that would be condusive to a horse show and very convienient to Capital Challenge, Harrisburg and Washington.

[Moonriver]

Syracuse says" Bring it on". We'd love it!!!. It was a wonderful show from start to finish! I hope this location will be seriously looked into...Good luck Stacia

[NoNonsense]

What is the agenda here?

Seems to me a few things are being overlooked.

I see the names of the directors of the horse show in New York, and does anyone seriously think any of them would find poor footing acceptable?

I don't know Stacia Madden, but if she really means well, wouldn't you think she would contact Mr. Mische and talk about the situation with him? Privately? Professionally? In a friendly, non-emotional manner? If you truly want to get something done, that's how you act.

On the other hand, if she has an inflated sense of her own perfection, and how things can't get done without her permission, perhaps she just thinks she can "save" things by stampeding people.

From what I've read, the Maclay and the New York National show have been "saved" a few times already, the latest by Mische -- we seem to forget so soon that an event happened in NYC on September 11, 2001, yet his people stepped up and put the show on anyway, at God-only-knows-what-cost at the Garden, when major Broadway shows were shutting down and things were in a near-panic state and hotels were empty and many, many people were even afraid to come to the city. I went myself that year, to do my little part to help. I wonder if the Maddens stepped up to help him back then?

Of course something else happened around then also, if I remember right. Mrs. Sally Wheeler died.

I read the on-line reports this year and the New York Times reports every day, and went out to Pier 94, to do my bit to help again. What I saw was a real big improvement over last year, along with real important publicity and exposure for horses. GOOD for Jennifer LeRoy, someone who obviously cares about doing things right. Granted, the place is not the Garden -- but the people in charge did a really good job, and if it improves as much next year as it already did this year, that will be so much the better. And Stacia, you collect and take the trash out in the middle of the night so you aren't doing it while the show is on during the day, and I just have a feeling that's the way it was done at the Garden, too.

New York City is a pretty important place to have our sport represented, and it looked to me like the exhibitors were pretty happy to be here. There were so many horses and ponies the show ran to all hours.

Almost all the big name Hunters were there, and Jumpers were added back again, and they did fine in the footing, including the Mayor's daughter. It was the same footing for everyone, and if what I saw was any indication, nobody was not showing!

Couldn't all this have something to do with the Maddens not winning in Manhattan like they did in Syracuse -- where they pick the judges? And why do you suppose the Hunters were so few in Syracuse? Maybe the same thing?

Nobody that I know of favors poor footing or poor conditions, and having a show in New York City is important -- nobody from Pier 94 seems to be bashing poor footing at Syracuse, or horses crossing from the stables in a parking garage to the ring outdoors in frigid weather, although the footing there was supposedly in need of improvement this year the first couple of days -- they probably improved it, and so did the people in NYC. So why not just let the people who want to go to Syracuse go there, and let the people who want to show in Manhattan go there?

Somehow it seems to me that able horsemen can make up their own minds, the people who have kept the National going will keep on doing it, and the Maclay will survive if the Maddens and their buddies don't show there -- the know-it-all types who tell us what to think, and what needs to be saved, probably should take a look in the mirror first.

And on that subject -- saving the horses from more pounding -- let's hear why the Maddens wanted to add another "final" anyway, especially on their terms and with their judges? Who do we write long letters to about them? The last thing the equitation horses need at the end of the year is one more final, but the Maddens thought so. That sounds like a motive other than "horsemanship" to me, and the horses are the losers.

And before I get started about how they (and many others) use and use and use those equitation horses, while "teaching" horsemanship, which is what they call it despite a person like Stacia Madden knowing better, let's just remember to think about where people who are "saving" things are really coming from.

[xegeba]

So NoNonsense... are you saying that the footing was NOT substandard and Mrs.Madden is merely bitching about a non-issue so her agenda gathers some steam?

[Hasty]

NoNonsense-

You certainly have a lot to say behind your Alter.

If you had a chance to read the rest of this thread you would see that many more than just Stacia felt that the footing was substandard.

[khobstetter]

WHOA THERE NONONSENCE!!!!

When one comes on with a post like yours, has no identity on their profile and choses to throw flames and personal remarks around it leads us to entertain the possibilty that you may be a troll.

A troll just plain likes to be negative and cause stress and thrown flames.

Instead of attacking someone we have a lot of respect for....identify thyself and be real...or at the very least don't get so personal with someone who has acomplished alot more than most of us!! If YOU have accomplished so much that you can toss darts and daggers...PLEASE let us know so we can respect your accomplishments too....!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> if she has an inflated sense of her own perfection, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> GEEZ...what you been smokin????????????????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[NoNonsense]

I am saying that if the footing was in fact sub-standard, the people in charge of managing the show certainly know to what extent it was, and can improve it if need be. And if the Maddens want to advise them, there's a proper way to do it.

I notice that you are from San Juan Capistrano, where John Madden's partner Robert Ridland is from. At one of the big shows there after the Olympic Trials, the jumpers on the grass field were literally falling down, right and left. This went on for a day or two -- then steps were taken to add sand to give the horses better traction on the grass. Did anyone say that Ridland had intentionally permitted the footing to become "sub-standard"? Demanded the show be moved? Of course not -- the management there fixed it, although it took a while. And this was outdoors, with permanent footing, under ideal weather conditions.

From my own observation, and from reading these boards, very rarely is footing "perfect," therefore it is almost always "sub-standard," because we all want it to be just right.

I watched the Jumpers on Pier 94 all Saturday night! There were no problems, and the courses were intricate and the jumps big. Friday night a horse had slipped and fallen -- from a very unbalanced ride -- in one corner. One horse out of a large number. Footing is a matter of perspective and relativity -- and indoor footing is the most difficult, it seems to me. Yes, most or many of the horsemen were using caulks -- that's part of horsemanship, to shoe the horses properly for the conditions.

So I am saying that the facility at Syracuse is not the Garden, either, and the town of Syracuse is definitely not New York City. So both shows can easily thrive -- if New York doesn't want what Syracuse has, why should Syracuse demand to have what has been a New York City event?

[millie]

I too watched Stacia win oh so many years ago.
As I started to read the letter I thought good for you.....until she mentioned "Syracuse"....

[Stacia Madden]

NoNonsense-

I am sorry to read that you took offense to this letter that was directed to the board of directors. I did not post this letter on this site, but after hearing it was posted here I felt an obligation to follow up. I will only speak on things I know. I never suggested that the Metropolitian Horse Show should come to an end. I believe I noted changes that were noticed in this years horse show. If the hunters and jumpers continue, that would be great. I only spoke on the macly. People could then have choices, which is what pushes people and shows to become better. I am just tired of hearing all the complaining at the in-gate from the exhibitors and trainers regarding the handling of the Maclay. Since I feel the same way, I decided to more than just complain. I signed my name to these posts, instead of hiding behind silly screen names. I absolutley know that the ASPCA Maclay Finals will continue with or without our students. I only hope that they will continue with. As far as Syracuse goes, the board picks the judges not "the Maddens". It may suprise you to know that I did not know who the judges were until I arrived at the show, the same as every other show we attend during the year. I think you are missing the point. The comment regarding not winning at New York is just ridiculous. We had a super show with 3 in the top fifteen and a 6th place finish. I can honestly say this letter would still have been mailed if we finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I am far from a know-it-all, but people have opinions. The proper channels have been followed. If you care to speak about this further, please contact me and I will answer any questions I can.

[Snowbird]

Well NoNonsense you are right footing is one of those undefinable and unmeasurable criteria that can change from one day to the next. That's why there is no formula.

I think good sportsmanship would have warranted that people who really care about the sport would help management. I am so weary watching all our goals been torn down in favor of what's new when we don;t know if what's new will be here next year.

So many times we read here about what's wrong and we are our own worst enemy. We tear down but this generation has yet to build up anything. It's easy to find fault in this disposable generation but it's not easy to build something new. It takes time and there is not just one set of values there are many. We all have our own perspective and priorities.

[xegeba]

O.K. NoNonsense,although I did not notice horses falling down left and right after the trials, the point is ... R.J. corrected the problem at that show. It was not an issue left to muse about for a year. I'm curious as to how many of those juniors competing actually care where the show is held as compared to the experience as it relates to the actual showing.

[NoNonsense]

Ms. Madden, thank you for the open reply.

From a look at the board of directors for Syracuse, it certainly seems to be Maddens and business associates and friends of the Maddens for the most part. If this is wrong, please point it out -- hard to tell who calls the shots, but John Madden seems to be the boss. And -- for better or worse -- you and your family have a professional and business interest in the equitation class there, and in equitation nationally. Some would say a conflict of interest. That all may be fine, but it has a bearing on your opinion, too -- you cannot help but be self-interested.

I still don't understand why "deciding to do something" didn't mean going to the management at New York -- professionally and privately -- rather than attempting to provoke a negative and harmful public discussion. Yes, you may not have posted the letter, but it was probably sent to more people than even look at this board! Was it sent first to the directors of the National to give them a chance to respond, or was it publicized first?

If the latter, my point is made.

May I also gently suggest that soliciting email to something called "save the Maclay" gives an impression far different from this last post of yours.

Here's hoping for better footing -- everywhere!

[Snowbird]

Well being the one with the longest memory out here and since I run a riding school I can with authority say the New York City is the capital of the world. Winning in New York City means more than winning anywhere else in the world except maybe the Olympics.(and they had a footing problem) The most magnificent arena cannot compare. Ask Tom Struzzerri and all the others over the years who have tried.

The fact is we as Americans LOVE NEW YORK CITY. The Olympics will be here in 2012 if we're lucky. Sure there will be lots of jokes as we make fun of ourselves.

[xegeba]

Who doesn't have a conflict of interest in this business. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Snowbird]

I think it all depends on whether or not it is for personal gain and benefit. There is a difference between me running shows at which my children compete and running shows at which the officials know I intend for them to win.

[Stacia Madden]

NoNonsense-

Yes, this letter was first sent to the Board of Directors. As to this post, I don't know how it got here so it is hard for me to say weather the Board has had a chance to respond or not. The letter was sent to those people who were cc. My intent was never for this to be public. Now that it is somewhat, I am trying to act responsibly and respond to my thoughts. As to "save the maclay", you call it what you want, but it is what I feel. Would "help the maclay " sound better? Several steps were taken prior to this, and I would be happy to share them with you one on one if you are REALLY interested.

[Stacia Madden]

Snowbird-

Do you really think that the $$$ spent from corporate sponsors in the area to run a international show in Syracuse really is a gain to the Madden Family. It was supposed to be a gain for the horse industry. Am I naive to think that EVERYONE involved was just trying to put on the best event they knew how? I can say for myself there is way more resposibilty than personal gain.

[NoNonsense]

Conflicts of interest.

Yes, lots of people do have them, and some a lot more than others.

But parents of kids in equitation -- unless they're professionals themselves -- do not have them.

[Snowbird]

Stacia I think sometimes we don't even realize when our personal interests conflict with our professional interests.

To use my illustration rather than make this personal. There probably has not been a show grounds built that was not built by some doting Dad for his child or children. There was a time when they tried to pass a 14 year old professional rule. These are all instances where it was considered a conflict of interest.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Am I naive to think that EVERYONE involved was just trying to put on the best event they knew how? I can say for myself there is way more resposibilty than personal gain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My goodness Stacia everyone in this business learns that the hard way. I try to protect my kids without money and rich Dads and work really hard at my job and I certainly haven't been spared accusations of personal conflict of interest. I'm afraid it goes with the turf.

I think all that NoNonsense is saying is that it would have been kinder as a good sportsman to work with Management and not against it. You spoofed me earlier but yes! a mayor and a very rich rock star and the top trainer in this industry could do a great deal to solve problems. Would Frank like to be the Show Manager? I think he could do a wonderful job.

[khobstetter]

I don't know what NoNonsense has been doing...but

I would ask that you out yourself so we can decide what exactly is YOUR conflict of interest that you would come on here and be so vocal about "knowing so much". You must have a conflict of interest that would make you so offended at Stacia's letter...written in an effort to help us all.

It is of interest to me that you have come on here for the sole purpose of only posting repeated slams at the Maddens, their family, their associates, their clients, their show performance and their effort to be heard in our industry!!!! Why in the name of Heaven knows what?????????

Are you indeed Mr Mische, his brother, one of the management team or ???????????????????
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But parents of kids in equitation -- unless they're professionals themselves -- do not have them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What ever you have been, this shows THAT comment in itself is refelective of your maybe not knowing everything. Parents of the "kids in equitation" have a HUGE conflict of interest...THEY WANT THEIR KID TO WIN!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Their "conflict of interest" is that they want to be the parent of the kid getting the BLUE ribbon....they will be on the side of whatever venue allows their horse to stay on it's feet and pack little Susie to the winner's circle show after show after show. Do not ever kid yourself that parents come to this sport without their own personal agenda and "conflict of interest"....their "conflict of iterest"...IS THEIR KID!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Sorry to be so vocal here about your effort to make Stacia the target of so much negativity....I am all for everyone having a voice!!! We do not have to agree but there is no reason to get so personal!!!

Have your say about the venue, the footing, the lights, the roof, the judges, the water and whatever else you find so wonderful about what is obviously a difficult venue....but there is no reason to get personal and negative about individuals who have made a huge contribution to our sport.

HAVE YOU??????????????????????????

[Stacia Madden]

NoNonsense-

Parents and riders are the very people trainers are trying to help. You can certainly disagree with my feelings regarding the Maclay, I am only voicing the opinions of parents that ride with us currently as well as my own. Why is being interested in the proper management of the equitation as a sport a conflict of interest? Our business is particulary interested in equitation because we believe it it a great foundation for the young riders we bring along. If you see a conflict there, what is it?

[Just My Style]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I still don't understand why "deciding to do something" didn't mean going to the management at New York -- professionally and privately -- rather than attempting to provoke a negative and harmful public discussion. Yes, you may not have posted the letter, but it was probably sent to more people than even look at this board! Was it sent first to the directors of the National to give them a chance to respond, or was it publicized first? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rest assured, I am not a member of the Madden in-crowd or anything absurd like that. I just feel the need to jump in here, since my "generation" is constantly under attack. I find it interesting that the minute anything is questioned, that many people are so quick to yell about hidden agendas, etc. So what is it? Are people supposed to sit back and say nothing and let the industry go as it may or are people allowed to question it and offer solutions for discussion? If you write a letter to an individual, you are sneaky and going behind everyone's backs. If you write a letter to a whole group, you are provoking a negative and harmful public discussion. I just don't get it.

[Weatherford]

THis is getting out of hand.

There ARE conflicts of interest.

But there is NO NEED for name calling or accusing someone of smoking.

This thread is borderline and may just get closed regardless.

[xegeba]

Parents of EQ. kids(at that level) spend thousands and thousands of dollars to get their kid to the Finals. Here is what they deserve... A safe and sane venue in which to compete.

[khobstetter]

Sorry Weatherford.....the kids will behave now.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Snowbird]

My goodness Kathy that's the pot calling the kettle black. Just read what you wrote and you don't even know her. The person who started this thread is equally unknown and equally liable to be a troll or an alter. It appears to me that Stacia is caught between in something she never planned.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You must have a conflict of interest that would make you so offended at Stacia's letter...written in an effort to help us all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Really who's jumping to conclusions here based on their own value judgments. Were you even at the Metropolitan?

Let's not have this disintegrate into a cat and dog fight. Thank you Weatherford I appreciate your admonishment.

[khobstetter]

Hey there Snowbird....I don't have a cat or a dog...sorry.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Really who's jumping to conclusions here based on their own value judgments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think it's a "value judgement" to assume that Stacia wrote the letter in an effort to help us all. We may not agree with the letter itself, but I HOPE we can agree it was her personal effort to make a difference..something we should all try to do.....

[Stacia Madden]

Snowbird-

I will not ask anyone to support something they do not feel passionate about. As far as my husband being a show manager, he helps manage the Beacon Hill Grand Prix and is involved as a committee member at The Syracuse Invitational. These are two shows he feels passionate about. I can not speak for him regarding the management of the maclay, but he is on the equitation committe and has voiced his feelings appropriately. I feel that we are doing our part the best we know how. I am sorry this has turned into such a public debate instead on the constructive critism it was meant to be. We will continue to try and help the sport by being part of clinics, judging, running shows, accecepting committee seats and running the best show stable we can.

[Snowbird]

xegeba and I think that's the issue. Many of us feel that is what they had. The Management of the NHS certainly does not do this for any personal profit or gain. As I understand it Gene Mische has dumped a fortune into making this the best show possible.

We have a disagreement as to whether the venue in Syracuse would be better or not than the one in New York City. And, whether or not the criticism could have been handled in a more sportsmanlike way. I was not there this year but certainly last year I heard no criticism except the lack of ambiance. Well they tried this year to put that back into the show.

It may take a year or so more before the pendulum stops swinging back and forth and it settles into it's own legend. Certainly it is not to the advantage of any show manager to offer bad footing. We all want the best footing we know how to create.

[lauriep]

Well, I know both Maddens very well, for 30 years, and while both are very good businessmen and successful in their respective ends of the business, they also have ALWAYS been very proactive on matters to benefit the sport. When John started the Syracuse show, it was done in part, as he has told me, to address the many complaints about how poorly exhibitors are treated in this country by all of our cookie cutter shows, and how poor the conditions, including the footing, are at so many of our "special" shows.

Footing at an indoor horse show is VERY difficult to do correctly, as you have no control over what is UNDER the footing, and the vendor who provides it only has x number of days to have it installed. If there is a problem, it usually isn't noticed until the competition actually starts, since the footing isn't available for any real activity until the show starts. Then, with the constraints of an indoor show, it is also difficult to then make corrections. But the key is to start with a vendor who has much experience in this area, something that this country just doesn't have, yet.

And to my knowledge, the Metropolitan isn't a Gene Mische show. His version is in Wellington, the true National Horse Show, which landed in Wellington "temporarily" when the Garden was lost...

So, instead of berating Stacia for having an interest in helping/saving a class that is important to her, even by offering up Syracuse as a substitute, why don't you (nononsense) suggest an alternative of your own? Stacia identified a problem and suggested a solution. Anyone else?

[xegeba]

Actually, I think that if the Maddens can build a better mouse trap ,they should do it and be rewarded monetarily for it.

[Snowbird]

Oh! Kathy you poor baby no dog or cat! and a horse person. It's a wonder you don't have stress syndrome.

Stacia I believe that you are interested in the best for the equitation and certainly I've known Frank long enough to know how dedicated he is.You have both done a wonderful job for your kids. Actually one of them is mine that when she moved I sent down there to you.

So we're all passionate in our convictions and our suggested solutions. We don't have to agree and we can debate the issues as good sportsmen. I don't think it was fair to say the footing was bad because it demeans the vistory of the winner. I think as professionals we should be able to sit down and talk and negotiate compromises. I suggested that Frank might consider making the offer since he was so passionate about his concerns. That was not meant to imply in anyway that you were shirking. I know that I could Frank tomorrow and he would work out a clinic, if only we had some Medal and Maclay riders.

If I was looking for a trainer for my granddaughter I would ask for no one better than Frank. He was wonderful training my daughter and that was a delightful year. We are not protagonists we are on the same side for a better and more enthusiastic Maclay Class. And, I know you know I have done what I can to help the equitation.

We are not a poorly run show and we don't have inadequate facilties as you well know since you are here even more than Frank. It is a fact that what needs to be debated is how do we bring back the enthusiasm for equitation.

[jn1193]

I too remember the "glory days" at the Garden: waiting outside in the cold and dark; walking up the long, horrible ramp; the cramped stabling (and the time I had a beam in the middle of my stall...) But I also remember there was nothing like the adrenalin the Garden generated.

I was saddened by Stacia's letter about the conditions at the Pier and chilled by her description of the footing. Particularly coming on the heels of the damage done to some wonderful horses by the poor footing in Athens.

Congratulations to Stacia for a good letter and the courage to take on the powers that be. She and her family fortunately have the clout to do it, but she risked going public with a potentially hot political topic and the slings & arrows that can go along with doing so. (Note to Stacia: welcome to the wonderful world of the Chron boards where outrageous stuff can come from all directions. Remember you can't please all of the people all of the time... particularly not here.)

I understand why Stacia and others might suggest Syracuse as a forum for the McClay finals. I question it because of location: it's a long drive for many people. Some posters have talked about Capital Challange as being a great venue and I agree. It's central, the indoor is nice, the show grounds easy to get to and well laid out; lots of area for schooling; and great footing. Why not hold the finals there? Is there any reason why they have to be held after the Medal finals?

Finally: I was out of the industry for 14 years and have been shocked at the way it has devolved with so much importance on showing at the lower heights. Snowbird remembers a time when the lowest fences were 3'6". I don't go back quite that far, but I am constantly astounded when there are 40-50 in the 2'6" classes and very few jumping in the regular divisions. People were flabbergasted last year when I started a large pony in the green division and didn't do a year of children's hunters. We've lost our focus in the industry and we need to make it worth it for people to compete to higher standards instead of continuing to reward mediocracy.

I am not saying that there isn't a place for local shows or the C & B rated shows. There is, I'm just saying we need to aspire to "more". If I've read Stacia's letter correctly, I think she is too.

Rock on.

[JustJump]

&lt;&lt;I don't know Stacia Madden,&gt;&gt;

WHOA!

Stop RIGHT there...

I have only glanced at the exlposions which followed this point of the thread--now I'll go and catch up, BUT--

Whatever follows, NoNonsense must presume ALOT if this is his/her starting point...

[J. Turner]

As to the people who believe this is Stacia's shameless plug, this isn't exactly the audience and market she wants. Yeah, there are a few people here who attend indoors, but the majority don't. Stacia seems like a pretty smart cookie. First, if she wanted to be enterprising this wouldn't be the place to do it. Second, I don't think that most horse shows (at least indoor ones) are the money making scheme everyone's chalking this up to. I doubt she or any of the Madden connections are making much money over this. This thread is getting nasty. Stacia, I'm sorry you had to come and experience the dark side of internet bulletin boards. They can and do do wonderful things sometimes. They can be a powerful instrument of change.

[Lord Helpus]

I, too, am from the era of the glory days of MSG -- and I am referring to the OLD Madison Square Garden. The one that was actually on Madison Square, and not over Penn Station. The one where the ponies were stabled in a parking lot down the street and we trotted down the sidewalk to get to the entrance ramp. The one with the green velvet plush seats and thick velvet twisted ropes with tassels on the ends dividing the boxes from each other. The one at which women wore long gowns and men wore tailcoats in the evenings.

That was the Garden at which GM and VHV and Frank Chapot and the icons of today won the Maclay. That is epitome of the glamour that was associated with showing at New York and winning the biggest prize awarded to junior riders.

Times change. Things do not stay the same. Long gowns turn into blue jeans. Velvet covered seats turn into seating at the end of the ring. Venerable old buildings turn into a pier on a warf.

But the one thing that remains the same is the excitement of showing in NYC. The utter improbability of bringing horses into the concrete jungle and, against all adversity, turning in a polished performance, just as you would at the finest, most accommodating of venues.

THAT very adversity is the one thing that connects the Maclay of today with the Maclay of old. The fact that you arrive in the middle of the night and school at 3 am. The far less than ideal conditions connects the riders of today with GM and Conrad Holmfeld and Katie Monahan and Leslie Burr and Stacia Madden.

Others have enumerated the utter ridiculousness of showing a horse right out of a van -- taking a horse from a 30 degree dark environment to a 80 degree brightly lit environment and asking him and his rider to perform at the very highest level. And it is ridiculous, Only in New York. Ahhh yes. Only in New York. It is truly special.

No one wants bad footing, and I have to believe that the footing issue will be improved. But if we want to talk bad footing.... The National Horse Show owned its footing. At the end of the show every year in a matter of 2 hours a convoy of trucks carted the footing out of the building to a vacant lot in Brooklyn where it was piled and left for the next 51 weeks until it was needed again.

When brought back in, there were pieces of twisted metal, broken glass, old syringes tossed by junkies and other assorted unmentionable additions to the dirt. It was combed through and much of it was removed, but there were still small pieces of glass and pieces of metal left behind.

Yeah.... Nice footing....

Long way 'round to say that Stacia may, with the best of intentions, think that she is "Saving the Maclay" by trying to move it to upstate NY. But, as someone who won the class when it was in NYC, she should realize that the Maclay is far more than another equitation class. The Maclay IS NYC. The two are inextricably entwined. NYC is what makes the Maclay so special. When it moved to Overpeck, it lost its chachet, and that was just over the bridge. Move it to upstate NY and, I don't care how good the footing is, it will no longer be the Maclay. It will be just another class. The Syracuse Invitational already has an equitation final. It doesn't need two. The Maclay needs to stay in its home city to be THE MACLAY.

[Snowbird]

We don't know if it's a presumption or if it is first hand knowledge. I think that it's unfair to presume it is negative just to suggest there might be another way to deal with the problems.

It's rather like yanking horses out of the Olympics because there were three of four problems our of how many trips? No one makes money easily on these kinds of projects. Not the staff of NHS nor that of Syracuse.

Entries were up so the people who were at Metropolitan must have liked it well enohough to want to come back. I think it is unfair to use a title like "savethemaclay" for a contact. Sure those people who worked hard and risked a lot including the City of New York which is cooperative and anxious for the show to survive are going to be defensive.

New York is recovering it's economy after 9/11 and they need support from business. We can help them and not hurt ourselves. I think having the Mayor attend was wonderful. I don't know any other time we had the Mayor of Ne York as a participating Daddy.

I agree with NoNonsense that we all should get together and help the NHS as volunteers instead of trying to pull it down. It's a unique idea to use the Pier. It's a magnificent setting. I don't agree with some of the choices for this year but it seems to have also made a lot of improvements.

It just seems to me after everyone of our "Heritage Shows we have threads bashing and complaining. We are our own worst enemy. Given the time to get there I am certain the NHS will grow as the Metropolitan and have it's own character.

I don't think the parents and the riders were deprived of anything and I heard nothing but good things until ths thread. It is my hope they will grow and we can have a second ring on the Pier next door. I think it would be wonderful if that ring was for Equitation and we gave some of the Equitation riders at 3'0" got the opportunity to compete for what used to be called the Henry Bergh. Perhaps if we were able to take more Maclay Riders it would invigorate the equitation.

It's not too encouraging to try and qualify when so few can be accepted. Time is not as big a restraint as it was aat the Garden. Perhaps a Committee of Parents and Trainers could sit down with the NHS and make suggestions about how to get overall competition better all year.

I personally am offended when people cast comments about the C/B shows as somehow being less worthy. If the entries are like it's because there is limited interest, it doesn't mean the show is badly run or inadequate. A lot of our C/B shows here in New Jersey are run by the same people who run the big shows, in the same rings and over the same fences with the same judges.

These are people who are not less talented and not less prepared but people with commitments that do not permit attending shows over multiple days. There are people who want to sleep at home, who have other children and husbands, who have businesses to run aaand for whome this is not a way to make money but a way to spend money.

[JustJump]

Although Bob Bell is listed as manager in the NHS prize list, on the BOD link, found elsewhere on the www.nhs.org (http://www.nhs.org) website, Gene Mische holds the position of president, and, he along with Jennifer LeRoy and John Y.G. Walker III, comprise the Executive Committee. Michael Morrissey is the co-manager, Susie Morrissey is the secretary, and Phelps Media Group handles the PR...

Although Mische and Stadium Jumping have little to lose if the New York version of NHS folds, I would hate to think that any conflict of interest he and SJI have would have contributed to substandard conditions which exist at the Pier. However, it's undeniable that Mishe and SJI have done much to determine the standards of competition in this country, and equally so that SJI is a 100% privately held company, owned by Gene Mische, and operated by Mishe and his immediate family (the Morrisseys). Let's not forget that the AGA circuit is entirely operated by SJI, and that a contributing factor to starting the NHS down the long slippery slope of decline was a loss of spectator appeal when the the AGA championships were moved by SJI from the NHS at Madison Square Garden to...the Stadium Jumping showgrounds in West Palm Beach, FL.

As well, the loss of the Garden as a venue occurred despite statements by Mische and Alan Balch at the conslusion of the 2001 show assuring that location as a certainty for five more years. One must assume that the committment to New York on Mr. Mische's part is somewhat weak, considering what transpired next.

[What transpired next, FYI, is that the very next year, it was announced, (in May?) that the National was being moved, along with the Maclay finals, to West Palm Beach, and would be held over Thanksgiving weekend. The reasons cited were economic: it would have been "too expensive" to hold the show at the Garden. Suddenly, the dates at the Garden were no longer available, despite the influence wielded by the family of jumper rider Debbie Dolan, major stakeholders in Cablevision, and owners of the Garden. Seems that the NBA TV schedule would not permit it. (Was the NBA schedule also determined so late in the year? Or was it known by the NBA and Garden operators in advance of the NHS announcement that there would be no NHS at the Garden?]

On "conflict of interest" Mische/SJI would score near the top of the scale, certainly far higher than the Maddens, even if they "owned" Syracuse outright.

Sorry, but disqualifying Stacia Klein Madden from a discussion she began on the state of the Maclay finals on "conflict of interest" grounds simply doesn't fly.

The fact is that everyone in the industry would hit the scale somewhere; no one is really immune from CoI (to coin a new acronym). As a matter of fact, if one DIDN'T have a vested interest in an issue, why would one become involved in a discussion about it in the first place. If one did so, isn't it likely that they'd be criticized for interfering in something that was "none of their business?"

I think that Stacia Madden's points are well made, and that the "Syracuse Sporthorse Tournament" option has merit. And although I'm sure that Syracuse is committed to it's venue and location, that the management there is headed in the right direction for the sport. Perhaps when they perfect the model they have started to build, other managements can replicate it, or perhaps the Syracuse group could be persuaded to do so themselves. But there we go with the cookie cutter again, and what fun is that?

Although the concept of a horse show in New York city is ideal, I think that without a major venue and elite levels of competition, the "Met"NHS should be put out of its misery. The Pier just doesn't cut it, AO jumpers can't carry the day, and neither does publicity about fashion and a young society maven "rescuing" the show with a shopping mart. The experiment has failed, IMO. Shoot it, and move on.

[NoNonsense]

Looks like everyone got a good night's sleep and is ready to go at it some more.

Just wondering . . .

Why does J.Turner consider it "nasty" to question the motives and conflicts of the Maddens? Isn't starting this thread out by implying that the people who showed their horses in New York had endangered them, that the management in New York didn't care, and using "horse welfare" to campaign for Syracuse just as nasy and maybe even nastier? After all, everyone loves their horses, don't they?

And as for Just Jump, why is it either Syracuse OR New York City?

The shows are hours apart and apparently much different from each other. Why shouldn't Syracuse do its own thing, and New York do its? Very simple. Why do you and the Maddens have to tell everyone else what to do?

Seems to me that variety is the spice of life -- wanting to "shoot" things seems nastiest of all.

[JustJump]

And now after reading LH's post, I'm thinking, awwwwwww, don't shoot the poor thing, spare it's pathetic life....

Good point about the difficulty being the link between then and now...however...Stacia's point that the Maclay finalists were side by side with the best is also quite valid. Today's finalists, while commendably able to deal with the adverse conditions, can't exactly be inspired by the rest of what the show has become.

I forgot to add my two bits about the trash. Trash cans should be emptied when full. Pretending that elves do it in the night is stupid, and sloppy besides.

[khobstetter]

JustJump...

Very well, and politely, said....BUT

I think all of us agree that we would LOVE to see "the Garden" be a super show at a super venue right in NYC...however it seems not possible. That makes the best interest finding another venue...probably NOT in NYC,,that will return the classes themselves to at least some top level of standards.

It will be a sad day when that happens but we better get our hankies out...I sadly think it's coming!!!!!!! Applause to tacia for taking a stance...hopefully it will either make "the Met" get on board or it willhelp pave the way for the future.

[JustJump]

No Nonsense, get a grip. I didn't say it had to be Syracuse OR NY, end of story. I said the Syracuse alternative "has merit." Other venues might also have "merit." NY could have "merit" but not in it's present state, IMO.

FYI, Stacia Madden hasn't said it should be Syracuse OR NY, end of story. It's a starting point. LH's reasons for thinking that that NY should't be abandoned are well thought out, and quite moving.

I think all can agree that the Maclay shouldn't just be "another final." But what should it be without the backdrop of the "real" National Horse Show behind it?

How can the show in NY recapture that elusive "electricity"? If it can't be done, I would have to agree with khobstetter...and go with my origninal impulse to pull the trigger.

[MsHunter]

Gosh after reading all 6 pages of this I want Stacia Madden on our Zone 2 commitee. This is more information and feedback then I have ever gotten from any Zone 2 committee member http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif!!!!

FWIW. I rode the big eq 26 years ago and yes there were MANY more exhibitors in a class and winning your blue ribbon was much more difficult as there were MANY riders in each class, but if memory serves me correctly we had LESS shows to choose from too!

Moving forward, I only see Stacia speaking from a point of view of having been part of both the Metropolitan show and the Syracuse show. I think it would be hard pressed to have a valid opinion not having attended each show. I think her preference is based on which show she felt was a better venue for her customers. Don't we all make the same decisions when planning our calendars? In the case of the MACLAY there is no choice. The finals are at the Metropolitan.
End of subject.

Stacia has presented an email addy which is allowing each and every one of us to voice an opinion of how to improve the Met, run it at Syracuse, OR leave things status quo, in addition she is IMO trying to attract a large audience all at one time to speak their mind.

Bring it to the hotmail address and let's wait for feedback on the information and data Stacia gathers. Why chase away someone who is trying their best to solve a problem?

I can only hope things get better for our future generation. My child has started her pony career that should ultimately move into the equitation and I am happy this generation is working perfecting things for the next one!

I disagree adamantly that the local shows are as well run as the larger venues. I am a local NJ trainer who sends people like the Maddens when it is time to move onto the "AA" circuit and out of "the Zone".

Even someone like me who specializes in breeding, training, and starting of young horses/ponies and the occasional newbie would like to have good footing, jumps, officials and the like I could go on and on. I only hope that it works from the top to the bottom in terms of improvements.

Maybe one day I won't go to a show that says just add 1 stride for the mediums and 2 strides for the larges and call it a day in the pony rings. What is so frigging hard about taking a tape and making the measurements? ARGHHHHH....
I could go on and on but this is Stacias thread
and I won't hijack it. My point being is someone needs to take care of us at the C/B level!

[JustJump]

&lt;&lt;I think all can agree that the Maclay shouldn't just be "another final." But what should it be without the backdrop of the "real" National Horse Show behind it?

How can the show in NY recapture that elusive "electricity"? If it can't be done, I would have to agree with khobstetter...and go with my origninal impulse to pull the trigger.&gt;&gt;

To the above, I'd also like to add:

If we don't pull the trigger, it's not too much to ask that the footing be of decent quality. And that goest for every venue, everywhere, no matter what the rating. More attention needs to be paid to this factor from bottom to top, so that bad footing anywhere is simply unacceptable.

[NoNonsense]

On the subject of applause, how about applauding the people who kept the show going in New York, too, and improved it, like Jennifer LeRoy, instead of taking snarky shots at them.

Last I checked, our sport needs every bit of exposure to the public, every place we can get. Especially in big cities. Seems to me it's a good thing to have The New York Times talking about horses and horse shows and equitation.

Isn't part of the issue here that all the best equitation riders WERE in New York, and that the Maddens' ploy to hurt the Maclay with their own class has failed, so now they want the Maclay itself?? And to try to get it, they are literally "trashing" the show there, using a "horse welfare" theme?

The standard of a class is set primarily by the caliber of the competitors -- nobody has said that the very top equitation riders of this year were not in New York. So that's where it starts.

The courses were excellent. The judges and judging were top notch. The jump equipment and ring decor were, too. The riding was superb. The schedule was improved from previous years, giving the riders several hours of rest time after their all-night schooling session, for the first time in memory.

The footing is alleged to have been "sub-standard," which is arguable. And the show is no longer in Madison Square Garden, which as far as conditions go, is a mixed bag, but is a big negative as far as ambience and the large crowd that used to see the final 15 or 25 only, because there were never too many there for the morning. And apparently the level of sportsmanship has declined.

All in all, I haven't heard anyone saying they are for low standards -- everyone is for the highest standards possible. It's just a matter of how to go about achieving them.

[Sannois]

Oh man the memories of the NAtional Horse show at the Garden in the 60's are forever burned in my memories. From the age of 8 my mom and I went every year from the Island. I loved every single solitary second of it! I still to this day feel Honored to have seen so many of the greats Bill Steinkraus, Neal Shapiro, Carol Hoffman, Kathy Kushner, And so many more! BUT the garden is gone, Nothing stays the same. Time to make a new tradition like someone said! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Pony Fan]

Okay....

I'm not one of the "usual suspects" on a discussion like this and let me state that:

A) I don't know the Maddens except to recognize them at the show ring;

B) I have no vested in the Equitation ring. My kid is off to college and even as a junior we got her 4'10" body into the Eq ring only under extreme duress;

C) I too am ancient enough to remember the "old" Garden and even the "old, old" Garden and while I never was fortunate enough to ride there myself, I groomed for a number of my friends who did qualify;

D) And finally, I did not attend the show on the pier either this year or last but heard about it from friends and trainers whose kids were in attendance.

Claerly last year and this year there was a problem with the footing. I think in light of the situation in Athens, the show management should have been especially diligent about the condition of the footing. I find it virtually impossible to believe that, given the exteremly vocal nature of the trainers I have known, that the substandard condition of the footing was not brought to their attention repeatedly over the week prior to the Maclay. Yet clearly there was not a visible effort on the part of management to correct the problem. Two years ago, at Harrisburg, for example, during one of the jumper classes, there was a corner that was clearly "slick". When it became apparent, management had a crew out between horses, tamping and raking the offending area. That, to me, is pro-active management.

In many ways, I agree with AdHock....The prestige of showing at the premiere events of the Indoor circuit must be weighed against the stress and possible damage to our horses. In my family's case, we have upper level jumpers who even under the best of circumstances can take a wrong step, risking permanent disability. At "regular" shows we normally would not risk things if the conditions are adverse. It is wrong to force the issue at a prestige show, especially in a situation like the Maclay Finals, a once a year, one time event. The possible physical, emotional, and yes, financial toll is far too great.

As an uninterested party, what I got from Ms. Madden's letter was a request for a call to action. This, IMHO, should not be muddied with the whole NY/Syracuse issue. What I'd like to see is Jenny Oz, who frequently has posted on this board, come forward, address the situation and explain what management did or didn't do to correct the footing situation. Based on that, I'd then consider whether the Maclay should move. After all, Sheila Johnson came forward to address the WIHS schooling tragedy.

By the way, I see nothing wrong with folks posting about situations negative and positive that occurred at the prestige events. If these are going to be the nation's heritage events, shouldn't they always be striving to improve? Heck, even Disneyworld, the "Happiest Place on Earth", engages in exit polls of it's patrons to see how they can be even "Happier"!

[Snowbird]

Exactly, Sannois at some point in time a group fo horse people put together the NHS and it became the crown achievement for the year to qualify. It didn't start that way either. Was it perfect no, we've enumerated all of it's problems too. BUT we all believed and we all were entertained and we all supported the effort. We just didn't take ourselves so seriously in those days, we laughed when someone literally fell off the one of the coaches in driving bcause he was drunk. We loved Harry DeLeyer making noises over each fence as if he might crash. It was the negatives that made to shows fun and memorable.

It was the almost catastrophies that gave the show it's crowd pleasing excitement. What is interesting about any class with 20 perfect and flawless trips, that's yawn time. If people have qualified all year and been selected as the few who are the best that doesn't change if you're sitting in velvet seats or on a metal bleacher.

They came, they were happy to come back so why are we not just discussing how the make the Maclay better instead of moving it from it's home in New York City. I probably was the reason they had to move it to the Meadowlands. I had made arrangements for three different rides for our horse from the Ride-Off in Overpeck. Not one person I knew qualified for the Maclay in Madison Square Garden, this mother who is definitely not a trucker mom, wound up driving into New York with a two horse trailer.

Well, as you all know with a long two horse you can't make the turn onto 33rd Street from 7th Avenue from the curb lane. So there I was parked waiting for space to make my turn. I wasn't about to go running around the block with a two horse trailer. Finally, John Walker came down and parked me between two No Parking Signs right at the front door of Penn Station. After horse was taken out we tried to get the manure from his being scared to death with a bad driver into a bucket.

Times change and with the support and desire, New York City has given us the opportunity to build a NEW dream. I would like this thread to follow Stacia's lead and make construction suggestions. I don't think it helps anyone or the sport for us to polarize into an either or situation. I don't see any merit in accusing one side or the other of nefarious plots and schemes.

I wonder if JustJump was even at the Metropolitan or is the opinion second hand hearsay. Where did this all come from? I read the threads early on with people excited they were invited to participate in the Metropolitan. I read threads where many were disappointed they didn't get accepted.

Are we so herd bound that only an indoor theatre with velvet seats will do it for you? It is true that horse people are a lot like horses. The first time I have a new idea and put it in a Prize List it gets read, the second year it gets thought about and the third some brave souls enter. By the fourth year it becomes a popular divisions which is then duplicated by all the other shows.

So please every take a deep breath and let's not have a stampede over the edge of a cliff. We can accomplish whatever we like if we want it bad enough. No reason to attack each other let's just graze peacefully and we have a whole year to collect opinions.

I am certain that just as you can write to Stacia's email you can write to the management of the Metropolitan. Let's back down on the lynch mob that wants to kill the Metropolitan for a couple of years. You may wind up in love with the Piers.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Julie Montgomery:
Now, now..... no apologies necessary. I should have kept my comments to myself.......and I apologize for the snarky remark. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You were just having a bad day because the Bulldogs lost http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Snowbird]

I don't think so, I think last year it was supplied and sifted for the show by some Commission in New York City that was working to return the show to New York City. But, I'm far from and insider on how the show was put together. If it was stored in New Jersey only the Good Lord! would be able to find it with our government. They can lose a whole farm.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As well, the loss of the Garden as a venue occurred despite statements by Mische and Alan Balch at the conslusion of the 2001 show assuring that location as a certainty for five more years.

One must assume that the committment to New York on Mr. Mische's part is somewhat weak, considering what transpired next. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I remember the circumstances there was a five year contract expected and promised by Mr.Dolan for the Garden. That was the time frame for the notice it would be there for the next five years.

But, when the terms were out in writing it was impossible because the dates depended on the basketball schedule. I think you all remember the difficulties with scheduling within the limitations provided by the Garden. The condensed version of the hunters that it required.

Gene Mishe picked up all the losses from the National the year after 9/11 and that certainly wasn't necessary if he wanted to kill the show. It would have been a very expensive demise.

Let's accept the premise that everyone involved on both sides of the issue are well intentioned and have the best interests of the sport at heart. Horse shows was a new concept for the Pier management as well. This was all a spanking new concept and not cheap for anyone. I think that the Pier took some losses the show took some losses and overall the sspectators seemed to enjoy the whole thing.

If the footing had been bad would they all have returned without checking and warning management of their concerns. They would at every other show. If the Maclay triners were concerned during the previous days of the show couldn't they go to management and ask if anything was going to be done or make suggestions on what they thought needed to be fixed.

My sole objecton is that this thread started with the premise that the Metropolitan should end. Well, the way it ends is if no one attends.
There were more entries than last year. The judges did not voice any concern, the course designer didn't think it was a big problem. It wasn't perfect and next year they will try to make it perfect.

Can we move on to discuss how we can make the Maclay itself better? I've heard about qualifying shows where the fences were at 3'0", and I've heard about shows where there were 5 fillers. That doesn't happen if there are adequate legitimate entries.

I'd like the trainers of the Equitation kids to tell me what we can do to get more juniors showing in equitation. Above 2'6" there is practically no interest. Marshall & Sterling has sparked a little interest in the Charles Owen Class and NAL has the Childrens Medal and those two classes are the whole game. The HBO Class fills with three when the Medal and Maclay can't run.

We started losing equitation when they didn't want to qualify out of Childrens Hunter, now that seems to be an Open Division in most zones. But, the equitation hasn't come back.

[Jaime]

Hi everyone,

I will preface by saying that I have not read all 6 pages. I have skim read a post here or there.

However, I remember when I started riding as a 13 year old horse crazy little girl. I was 14 years old and I went with a few riding friends to the Continental Airlines Arena to watch the "National Horse Show." I remember how crowded it was. I remember standing on this line to buy a program guide! I was in awe as I watched the small and medium pony hunters. (I also remember who won: I believe it was Paige Johnson on some Rainbow pony). Why not consider bringing the National Horse show back to the Continental Airlines Areana? It is a great venue - ample parking, the arena is a nice size, and there is plenty of space for attractions and shops. In fact, I even remember standing on line to get Greg Best's autograph!

Stacia, is this a possibility? I do not know the reasons why it was removed from the Continental Airlines Arena...but its something to consider...Just a thought.

I commend you for putting yourself out there like this and trying to do whats best for the sport and the people and horses involved in it. Best wishes in your venture!

Jaime

[Jaime]

Add: (Sorry, I dont know how to edit posts)

In addition, it is a great location...accessible to all because it is right off of the NJ turnpike.

[Hasty]

I too was thinking the same thing as Jaime....
What about the Continental Airlines Arena??? I have not been riding for enough years to remember the OLD Garden, but I remember the first BIG show I went to watch was the National Horse Show at the Continental Airlines Area. I thought the show was absolustely amazing, the ring was big, the horses were happy...and it's not that far away from NYC. And there were TONS of people there!

However, I am old enough to remember when they tried to bring the show back to the garden and hearing stories of hacking and lunging at god forsaken hours. (while i know this is the case at MOST shows) it was extreme. it just seemed that it was absolutely impossible to get the horses prepared the way they needed to be under such restricted conditions.

[Mardi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:

There is the idea of a rating system being in place for the quality of horse shows, which is sketchy because of the criteria. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already doing it - see www.exhibitorfriendly.com (http://www.exhibitorfriendly.com)

The quality rating is based on consumer feedback from exhibitors and spectators while they're at the show.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Rap and loud metal music just wouldn't make it at a horse show. I miss the foxtrot and tango too. If I can adjust to new ideas then so can you so let's get on with it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Bob Johnson had Jeffrey Osborne doing R&B at his new Grand Prix in Charlotte.... it was a little awkward watching riders standing around trying to walk their course to the tune of "It's gettin' hot in here.... take of all you clothes....". But the roping tricks rider was fun!

[Mardi]

I'll get some flack for this, but I'm a firm believer that at any time during a show, if the rider/trainer/owner feels the footing or facility is not safe, and management has not adequately addressed or fixed the problem(s), the rider/trainer/owner should withdraw and not continue to be a part of management's event.

Yes, they will forfeit their money, but customers (exhibitors) walking out the door and refusing to remain and compete speaks much LOUDER to management than continuing to stay, and then afterwards complain.

If you stay (for whatever reason), management will always have that over you (they don't care why you stayed, simply that you did); if you leave, they know you were serious about your concerns.

It's up to you.

[ADambra]

Mardi, I agree with you, but it's easier said than done when it is the national final that they have worked the whole year for. All that money down the drain that was spent trying to qualify and buy or lease a horse for it. How do you explain that to your students? Especially those kids who had only this year left to compete because they age out next year.

[Stacia Madden]

Lord Helpus -

My reason for asking the question regarding ownership of the footing was directly related to my thought that NHS does indeed own it. We will wait and see if we obtain those answers.

[Stacia Madden]

NoNonsense-

Please reread my letter before you start posting what you think I mean. I never used the word "endangered", never stated management "didn't care" or used "horse welfare to campaign for Syracuse". The horse welfare line refers the the ASPCA and its prnciples. How are you possibly interpretting that "the Maddens have to tell everyone else what to do." Your interpretation "and that the Madden's ploy to hurt the Maclay with their own class has failed, so now thet want the Maclay itself??" Are you really serious or is this just emotion talking? I really do believe my letters purpose is to try and offer some awaremenss to the ASPCA. I never once suggested that the Metropolitian should not hold a horse show. Let's drop the idea I suggested of Syracuse for a moment and focus on the facts. I wrote a private letter, mailed it to people I thought would appreciate constructive critism. It has lead to this very public discussion. My hope of this letter was to generate awareness in the community, not preach belief and stir up negative comments that don't pertain to the subject at hand. If you feel so strong that I am uncredible to write such a letter, write your own for us to respond to.

[Snowbird]

Pony Fan you say you were not there either year, I was there last year.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Claerly last year and this year there was a problem with the footing. I think in light of the situation in Athens, the show management should have been especially diligent about the condition of the footing. I find it virtually impossible to believe that, given the exteremly vocal nature of the trainers I have known, that the substandard condition of the footing was not brought to their attention repeatedly over the week prior to the Maclay. Yet clearly there was not a visible effort on the part of management to correct the problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You say clearly there was a problem last year and this year! I was there last year and I saw no problem in spite of some very tight turns and good sized fences all the horses had little problems negotiating the course. It was certainly not "clear to me" there was a problem last year. I heard nothing negative and was delighted with the courtesy of all the riders to the children I brought who are budding potential talent.

I did not go this year because I didn't think I could maneuver the bleachers so I can't say anything it is hearsay for me as it is for you. You make two assumptions one, that you are certain someone must have complained to management, we don't know that, no one from mangement has answered this thread. The second that they were notified and didn't do anything to correct the situation.

If they were told during the evening and the repair was not major they would have made any adjustments during the night when the show was over. It's not fair to any show mangement to jump to conclusions that are not necessarily valid.

Is there anyone who knows who complained during the week? or if anyone did complain? I agree if there was a serious problem horse people are never silent and usually complain loudly and long. If no one had complained what reason would there be to believe that what was good on Saturday was not still good on Sunday?

[elizabeth]

Responding to the issue of why trainers didn't pull their kids when it became clear that the footing was sketchy, ADambra noted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Mardi, I agree with you, but it's easier said than done when it is the national final that they have worked the whole year for. All that money down the drain that was spent trying to qualify and buy or lease a horse for it. How do you explain that to your students? Especially those kids who had only this year left to compete because they age out next year. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I respectfully suggest that, in my opinion, what the trainers should have done is (a) checked into the footing in advance, recognizing that the venue was both temporary and with no obvious history (trainers should have talked to the folks on the planning committees well in advance, talked among themselves as trainers, etc.) and (b) once it became clear to the trainers that the footing would endanger the horses, said to the students and parents:
"I cannot, in good conscience, send you into that ring. I realize we worked hard to get here, and I realize that this year cost you all a LOT of money and time and effort. But this past year cost BobTheHorse time and effort, too. And we owe it to him not to send him into this ring. He's a good boy, he's trusting us to act in his best interests, and he doesn't deserve this. So, while it kills me to say it, I have to beg you to pull from this class. I'm a horseman more than I am your trainer, and I OWE it to this horse, who has been so good to us, to ask you to pull. If you will not withdraw, I understand, and I will go to &lt;&lt;insert name of amoral eq trainer&gt;&gt; to ask him to school you and get you ready for the class. I am so, so, so sorry that this has happened. I checked into the footing in advance, knowing that this sometimes happens. I just did not envision anything like this. I hope you understand my decision. Please know that I'm going out here on a limb, and I know lots of trainers are going to let their kids go into this ring, but I would never forgive myself if I did not speak up and BobTheHorse got hurt. Or worse.

That, I respectfully suggest, is what the some of the trainers who felt as the Maddens did at the finals should have said, that's what some of the trainers at WIHS should have said (when realizing that schooling in a way their clients needed was not a safe option), and that is what any good trainer should say to a client when faced with jeopardizing the horse WHO HAS NO CHOICE as to whether to go into the ring.

Now, before some of you who are more "into" the scene than I currently am suggest that I am being naive, let me note that I am NOT being naive. I GET what this is about - I'm not an idiot. This is about the money. Nobody wants to lose clients by being overly conservative about the ring conditions, nobody wants to sacrifice a year spent qualifying, nobody wants to waste the money they paid for their fancy lease horse, nobody wants to pull after shipping all the way to the show and paying all the fees. I GET that. I'm not an idiot. We're talking about money (that of the trainer and that of the client) and about trainers's livelihoods.

And my response is BIG. FREAKING. DEAL. Who has the choice as to whether or not to endanger the horse? The trainer does. The rider does. The parents do. To make that decision based on sunk costs and not the best interests of the ANIMAL, who has no choice, is just. . . tough for me to stomach.

Sometimes you do what is right just because it is RIGHT. Not because it is cheap.

In closing, Stacia, I applaud you for writing the letter posted on this thread. Kudos to you. I wonder, however, how much response you will get before it becomes EXPENSIVE for show organizers NOT to respond.

[jlf]

I got to ride in the Maclay finals at the Meadowlands in 1993 and 1994 - those were some of the most impressive and memorable moments of my teenage years. I was one of those kids who didn't have a lot of money and would do the local shows to qualify and then work my butt off at home until the end of the year. Showing at the Meadowlands was a very fulfilling experience for me (and my family) and completely different from Harrisburg and other year-end shows. From a junior rider's perspective, I don't remember there being any logistical issues that detracted from the experience (though I may have forgotten about them by now).

Stacia, I commend you on your efforts to better the conditions for the Maclay finals - and for defending your letter here on the BB. From what I read, you want the best for this class. Period. And while you may not have intended the letter to be posted on this board, I think it might be a great place to find others who support your position.

[Snowbird]

Might I respectfully suggest that show management has been found guilty of sin based on no evidence I've seen. Were you there? I cannot imagine that with Sunday as the last day of the show that by then the entire pplace would not have been in an uproar.

I would like to point out that the Course Designer and Management present the course to the judge. If there was any reason to suspect the course was dangerous the judge as well has liability and no judge would jeopardize their possitions by allowing a dangerous situation to occur under their watch. The Steward is there and it would not be difficult if several trainers felt their horse or rider was in danger for them to file a protest that they would not continue until remedial action was taken.

We do not know for a fact that anyone complained to management, we do not know for a fact that anyone was concerned from the Course Designer to the Judge to the Steward and including management. What we have is an after the fact hearsay statement of personal opinion from someone who thought it was safe enough to ride.

Surely, no one would jeopardize the safety of a child or a horse worth thousands of dollars to save the price of the entry fee. Even with shipping and hotel, food etc. that risk would be too great not to have asked for a remedial correction. If that was asked for and then refused I would be on your side.

[Stacia Madden]

Lord Helpus-

Perspective is the word that keeps coming back to me. Your perspective is that of "the Maclay is far more than another equitation class. The Maclay is NYC. The two are inextricably entwined. NYC is what makes the Maclay so special."

The Maclay was not about walking to the hotel were eveybody stayed, fancy dinners, clubbing at night, shopping, and site seeing. Although most os those things did leave memories. The Maclay was about the quality of the people around the event (riders and trainers, etc), quality horses held in a historic building. Does anyone really think exhibitors would have put up with all stuff that went along with showing at the Garden if it had not been the Garden? We lost the Garden, but lets keep the integrity of the other things the class stands for, thats all I'm after. The ASPCA MAclay is supposed to stand for: "The Maclay class has served to educate young riders and instill in them sensitivity and respect for their equine partner." Lets focus on that. Please feel free to email savethemaclay@hotmail, with your suggestions (sorry for the name, too late to change).

[Stacia Madden]

Snowbird -

That is the reason that the judges were sent a copy of this private letter, along with the management. I would love their feedback on the class conditions. Horses were slipping, the question is who gets the final say on when it becomes dangerous? Does a horse/rider have to get hurt first? Just like the Air Marshalls onboard a flight needs to wait until "an action" has been carried out before they can respond. It might be to late! Who has the ultimate responsibity for safety? I feel it is ours. This brings me back to the reason for my letter and the reason it was mailed to the people who could make a change, if they feel it is neccessary.

[Waterwatch]

I'm a bit confused as to how this letter appeared on the BB in the first place and have a few questions........

Who is FastandClean and if Stacia didn't give her/him authorization to post the letter, why did she/he take it upon her/himself to do so? Stacia seems surprised that this letter is on the Chronicle BB.

Is FastandClean one of the people who officially received the letter?

Why have we not heard anything more from FastandClean since this whole "discussion" started?

Just curious (I know...........it killed the cat)!


Barbara

[xegeba]

Is it safe to assume that the MHS is operating at a loss?

[Snowbird]

Stacia, I think you raise an excellent question it was the reason for my last post. It seems to me there are checks and balances which should have that decision made long before it gets to the trainers. It seems to me first we have the Course Designer who is they feel the footing has been damaged in any way even by a previous round should require the adjustment. The Course Designer presents the course to the judge. If the judge feels the course is not correctly designed or if there are rails broken and if the footing has been damaged and not repaired they can request it before they permit a rider on course. As you know the manager at a multi ring show may or may not even be aware of a problem. The judge has the option to call the Steward and require that the class be halted until whatever repair is necessary has been made for a safe round. That's three people ahead of the trainer, if all these fail then the trainer has the right to go to the Steward and require the repair. If the repairs have bee refused to be made by all means then file an official protest. We certainly get enough forms for everything as management and the Steward usually has a duplicate set.

If the Repairs have been refused and the protest has been filed and the repairs are still refused then scratch and request a full refund. Apologize to your client but their investment in their child and their horse is much greater than any investment in the show. I cannot imagine a parent that would not agree. I also cannot imagine that any show manager would be so crass since their refusal would constitute gross negligence.

However, if the Course Designer sees no flaw, and if the Judge agrees and the Steward agrees with the judge then it has to be a personal judgment call. Really, at that point management is not in control. I can think of a show that I ran as a manager and the judge refused to permit us to drag the ring. But, that was only one time in 30+ years and the ring was fine so he determined it was an unnecessary waste of time and as a manager I could't overrule his decision. My option only would be to not hire that judge again.

But, then I'm just 'little people" and I would be most interested in an official reply as well.

Stacia do you have any evidence to believe that the Course Designer, Judges and Steward at any time felt the footing was bad? Do you know for sure if anyone complained to any of them or management before the class was started? And did anyone refuse to make whatever adjustment the footing required?

So then is the purpose of your letter to raise the question of the chain of authority? or had you complained to someone in authority and been rebuffed that the conditions were safe?

I would also like to know out of how many trips where the fences were 3'6" were there horses slipping and sliding during the course of the week? Was it on any particular day? My thought would be if it was weather related.

[Snowbird]

I don't know for sure but as a show manager with all of the additional costs involved I would doubt that any Finals makes a profit. It is usually a give back for a season of competition and a heroic amount of work. I am certain that costs in Manhattan are much higher than anywhere else. Just the hotel costs for staff would probably be double any other city.

As I understood it in the past at the Garden almost every official donated their services to the show just for that reason and for the good of the sport; yet with the costs of labor etc. the show at the Garden was an extravagantly expensive thing to produce and it was through the courtesy of Sally Wheeeler each year it was able to continue.

[xegeba]

So we have a venue, in a city, that for the most part is made up of people who would rather poke their eyes with hot needles than spend their money to watch Eq.rounds. I don't care how many articles are written, how great the shopping is... the market that was being targeted was out clubbing that weekend. Even it was held at the MSG of old, management would be faced with the same dilemma. Consequently, the show probably is barely taking in enough to get by, which means corners are being cut, which means things are going to hell in a handbasket.

[Stacia Madden]

Snowbird -

I will only comment on what happened to me and our stable. I recieved many calls from trainers that were exhibitors at the Metropolitian during the week regarding the footing. I believe the show was aware of the potential problem because the first day or so the ring was closed and longing was terminated.
My husband and I did not arrive to the Metropolitian until it was time to school at 2:45am. The footing at that time was nearly unusable to our standards. I looked around for a schooling supervisor or schooling steward and found nobody. We returned to the hotel for a nap since the pony hunters started off the day at 7:00am. Upon arriving back at the show at 9:00am, the show was well underway. The initial coarsewalk opened at roughly 10:00am. For me it is hard to make a concrete evaluation before you see a horse compete. Since I had not been there for prior performances, I would have to wait to see the first horses show in the Maclay. We made the decision (with our own questions in mind) to go forward and swing the bat and show. The best reason I can give for waiting until after the show to write to the Board is simply that I would have liked nothing more than for the footing to have held up. I gave it a chance. My next recoarse was to put my feeling down on paper, instead of just talking and having words fall on deaf ears. I did not want to talk to one person, I wanted to reach everyone who was involved in making decisions for that show to examine the seriousness of the problem, in my mind anyway. I did not want there to be any "sweeping under the carpet".The footing was not going to be able to be fixed that day, or it would have been since it was the last day of the show when it should have been its best. I think the coarse designers and the judges did the best they possibly could to adjust for the conditions. I feel strongly they should just not be in that situation to begin with if the exhibitors and especially the show management do there job. This is my reason for addressing the committee and my peers as a unit. Everybody will have a difference of opinion on what works. I tried this. I own a stable and train, I am not a politician. I will take this as a chance to learn, but I WILL NOT be sorry for trying to make this a better sport!

[Mardi]

Elizabeth - your entire post was absolutely correct. I look forward to the day when more trainers display that kind of principle and integrity, because the reputation of the horse show and show horse industry will greatly improve, for everyone's benefit.

[lauriep]

Stacia, I wouldn't even bother to respond to nononsense. He/she obviously has an agenda and a grudge against the Madden family. Commonly called a troll, and since he/she refuses to give their identity to give some validity to their point, don't waste your breath.

McLain has encountered the same problems here, being attacked by people who don't know him or what he stands for. With theses people, there is no winning.

I would also like to readdress the difficulties in actually making a correction to footing after it is already installed IN THE MIDDLE OF A MAJOR CITY. It would be virtually impossible. So, it comes back to mgt. and the course designer - did they see and evaluate the footing prior to installation? Had the footing been used in a/this venue before (was it the same stuff as last year)? What is it? What is under it? Was an outside vendor hired to provide it, or is it owned by the show, as it used to be? Would putting the footing in earlier have been possible, so it could have been ridden/jumped on and evaluated? But there again, what do you do if it doesn't pass inspection? In an indoor facility, this is a HUGE, HUGE task. Syracuse got nothing but compliments on their footing last year, under the same circumstances. If nothing else, perhaps there can be some discussion between the Metropolitan mgt. and Syracuse to find out how to get it done right.

[Stacia Madden]

Elizabeth-

You are right about trainers needing to get together. That was done at the end of last year, but nothing really came of it. The money end of it never really entered into the equation in our decision making, honestly. We wanted to give our young riders a chance to follow their dreams.

I was at WIHS when that accident happened in the schooling session. I believe in that instance the schooling was deemed unsafe after the accident happened. This is the reason I wrote this letter before next year, I don't want to wait for an accident. Then somebody falls victim. The WIHS committe in my opinion handled the situation with as much professionalism as I have seen once the problem was clear. They made visible efforts to make the best of a tragic situation. The schooling times were strictly enforced, the footing was maintained at regular intervals and a schooling supervisor was always present. I have not read anything pertaining to this issues so I do not have a read on other questions raised.

[Silver Bells]

Stacia, Keep at it, your persistence is awesome. If my horse had not been injured, I would have been at Syracuse, and can't wait till next year.
The bottom line is: have events that meet all the criteria mentioned by posters on this thread. It just so happens that Stacia was involved with a great show, so what. We all have so much invested in this sport, why should we be short changed. Let's not loose sight of the primary purpose of Stacia's letter, which is to bring about awareness to potential risks and improvements. We should be thanking her for tackling this problem, instead of attacking her motives and character.
NoNonsense, please take your toys and go home!

[Stacia Madden]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stacia Madden:
Snowbird -

I will only comment on what happened to me and our stable. I recieved many calls from trainers that were exhibitors at the Metropolitian during the week regarding the footing. I believe the show was aware of the potential problem because the first day or so the ring was closed and longing was terminated.
My husband and I did not arrive to the Metropolitian until it was time to school at 2:45am. The footing at that time was nearly unusable to our standards. I looked around for a schooling supervisor or schooling steward and found nobody. We returned to the hotel for a nap since the pony hunters started off the day at 7:00am. Upon arriving back at the show at 9:00am, the show was well underway. The initial coarsewalk opened at roughly 10:00am. For me it is hard to make a concrete evaluation before you see a horse compete. Since I had not been there for prior performances, I would have to wait to see the first horses show in the Maclay. We made the decision (with our own questions in mind) to go forward and swing the bat and show. The best reason I can give for waiting until after the show to write to the Board is simply that I would have liked nothing more than for the footing to have held up. I gave it a chance. My next recoarse was to put my feeling down on paper, instead of just talking and having words fall on deaf ears. I did not want to talk to one person, I wanted to reach everyone who was involved in making decisions for that show to examine the seriousness of the problem, in my mind anyway. I did not want there to be any "sweeping under the carpet". I know that planing for the next years show begins at the end of the current year. I wanted to go on record before that planning begun. The footing was not going to be able to be fixed that day, or it would have been since it was the last day of the show when it should have been its best. I think the coarse designers and the judges did the best they possibly could to adjust for the conditions. I feel strongly they should just not be in that situation to begin with if the exhibitors and especially the show management do there job. This is my reason for addressing the committee and my peers as a unit. Everybody will have a difference of opinion on what works. I tried this. I own a stable and train, I am not a politician. I will take this as a chance to learn, but I WILL NOT be sorry for trying to make this a better sport! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Silver Bells]

YOU GO GIRL!

[Stacia Madden]

If anyone would like to submit their suggestions, problems, or potential solutions - please use the email address savethemaclay@hotmail.com. I am sorry for the name, I wish in hindsight it was named helpthemaclay. I will keep all responses in case I get a chance to help make a difference.

[perfecta11]

Stacia -
I'm generally a reader, not a poster, but I felt compelled to tell you how extraordinarily polite and respectful you are, especially since you don't have to be responding to all of these posts. If I came on this board without ever posting and was attacked the way you've been attacked, I'd do no less then never come back again. Good for you! You are fighting for the welfare of your horses and other's, and while some people don't see that, they should really think about what their priorities are. Obviously yours are in line. I'm glad you're persistent.

Jonathan

[Just My Style]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Waterwatch
Working Hunter

posted Nov. 14, 2004 02:52 PM
I'm a bit confused as to how this letter appeared on the BB in the first place and have a few questions........

Who is FastandClean and if Stacia didn't give her/him authorization to post the letter, why did she/he take it upon her/himself to do so? Stacia seems surprised that this letter is on the Chronicle BB.

Is FastandClean one of the people who officially received the letter?

Why have we not heard anything more from FastandClean since this whole "discussion" started?

Just curious (I know...........it killed the cat)!


Barbara
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Waterwatch- I wonder too...
So who is FastandClean? Why did they think they had the right to take a private letter and make it public? Even though Stacia has come on here and discussed the issue at hand, the letter was not originally supposed to be for open discussion. So where is FastandClean? Back under the bridge?

[NoNonsense]

Is it a given that everything Stacia Madden says is absolutely true and impossible to disagree with?

I don't think so. She has her perspective and opinion on things, and others have their own. She sees things her way, and others might see it differently. Not surprising around horses, I would say.

Personally, I just got back from a very pleasant day at the barn. This thread and the phone calls and emails going around because of it caused a lot of conversation in our group.

Here's what I learned from people who were there all night before the Maclay (I wasn't), and watched every round of it on Sunday (which I admit I did not).

First off, they laughed out loud about the footing questions -- it was not a big topic where they were standing, sitting, watching, and working during the night, as it was not a big deal or maybe any deal "away from the in gate" on Sunday all day. They were NOT at the in gate, though, where Stacia Madden apparently was.

Schooling supervisors/stewards were present, according to them, all night long. If the Maddens didn't know who they were, they apparently didn't take much time to ask around. Perhaps they were people the Maddens didn't know. In any event, this seems to me something that needs to improve a lot. They should certainly be well-identified and people should know how to contact the management during the night. Especially if something goes wrong or there are complaints.

On the subject of trash, yes, there was plenty of it -- mostly, I was told, empty bags of shavings. And it was removed in due course. But I was also reminded that this meant 100 Maclay horses were IN STALLS, many with new shavings, and many of them arriving during the late day or evening Saturday. At the Garden, let's remember how many years the Maclay horses stood for an eternity on vans parked on 33rd St., and how few years there were more than 50-75 riders at the most because of space and time. Big improvements this time, at this facility, on both counts.

As for the class itself, I'm no expert on footing, but I didn't see any problems. Before now, I didn't want to put a personal opinion out there on whether it was "sub-standard" or not, except to say that it undoubtedly was not perfect. Few things are, and the Maddens say they didn't like it. I did notice myself that most of the horses were wearing caulks.

One person I talked to today practice-judged all 100 or so riders, and saw no slips or big deal problems related to the footing, for what (little) that's worth. An amateur.

But the two people who laughed out loud at the question about it said that the Maddens had a few riders who made the final cut of 15 (I don't know which riders ride there) -- but one or more of those riders were apparently told or decided to put in a critical extra stride that the top winners left out, and left out smoothly, without problems, when the top 15 went again. If this is so, I think that tells a lot about this whole situation. The Maddens and their riders made the judgments they made, and other riders and trainers made a different judgment. People who watched the class carefully know whether or not this is so, and Stacia Madden must too. I don't know because I wasn't counting strides, and didn't know who trained what rider except for the few I knew personally. Never really believed in that counting stuff, but I'm old fashioned (as this thread makes very clear).

It is really too bad that she and a few others feel Stacia Madden is being "attacked." I just re-read the post that started all this, and if that isn't an outright attack on the management and the show and the Maclay being held in New York, and a misleading one to boot, I don't know what is.

So my opinion is that people should try to just be fair all around. I don't believe in being rushed to judgment based on one opinion and suggested email campaigns to "save" things, which has now been changed to "help," especially when I saw things differently than the Maddens and so did plenty of other people. If the original post had a different content, I could be persuaded about how sincere this "help" business really is.

Nobody's campaigning against Syracuse that I can see. There are plenty of horses and plenty of room for everyone and everyone's way of doing things, it seems to me. And if the Maddens really, truly just want to see the Maclay conditions improve, they certainly know how to lend a hand without all this hoo-rah.

In fact, those who truly want to help the Maclay should probably email or write or call Mische and Stadium Jumping or the National Horse Show or Jennifer LeRoy directly. Why bother to go through someone else, I would wonder, especially such a harsh critic.

Finally, if some "troll" like me wants to get the other side out there, and ask people to remember there are always at least two sides to a story, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Welcome to the world of Internet free speech, where people can make up their own minds when there are at least two different perspectives on "the facts." If I'm not mistaken, a lot of/most of the people posting on this thread were not even at the show in New York City. I was.

[J. Turner]

NoNonsense - can't you just state who you are? Many people on this board, including Stacia, are willing to put themselves on the line. If you are going to respond directly to Stacia's letter, please state who you are. No need to be ashamed of stating your opinion. If you're willing to call out others names, you should be able to put your John Hancock on your opinions. Besides, no one's going to take you seriously otherwise.

Everyone else = I saw Stacia Madden's letter on the front page of Towerheads. Anyone who has a membership could've cut and paste.

[Just My Style]

Towerheads- Ken Kraus. Well, there you go.

[khobstetter]

NoNonsense....

Me thinks thou speaketh with forked toungue!!!

Is it....???
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Here's what I learned from people who were there all night before the Maclay (I wasn't), and watched every round of it on Sunday (which I admit I did not).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OR IS IT..........???
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If I'm not mistaken, a lot of/most of the people posting on this thread were not even at the show in New York City. I was <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Either you were at the Maclay Finals or you were not...seems unfair to slam people's opinions who were not there..BUT you can certainly have yours AND YOU WEREN'T THERE EITHER!!

This thread is SPECIFICALLY about the Maclay..you have spent sooooooooooooooo much time slaming the Madden's (who were there) and anyones opinion who was "not there"....BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION YOU WERE NOT EITHER!!!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

COME ON... BE AN UP FRONT GUY/GIRL, DON'T BE ASHAMED TO LET US SEE WHO YOU ARE AND STAND BEHIND YOUR OPINION ..........COME CLEAN WITH WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT GIANT GIANT GIANT AX YOU SPECIFICALLY HAVE WITH THE MADDEN'S...IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS YOU DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many ways can we spell TROLL ?????????

[xegeba]

So if J. LeRoy was posting under an alter, would you consider that a troll?

[Stacia Madden]

NoNonsense-

First, I never stated I felt like I was being attacked. Second, I was speaking of the second round when we made the sriding decision. Third , who is rushing anyone to make any decisions? Did you a time line somewhere? Forth, In my cover letter I specificly asked people to write, fax, email or phone anyone they felt could help, if they agreed with the content of the letter or disagreed. Fifth, I only started the hotmail address after people asked how they could stay in touch with the progress. Otherwise that would have written in my cover letter as well. I believe you are right that people should contact the show managers or the committee members on their own behalf. I want to be very clear on what the facts are that I have stated. Please take the time to reread the cover letter and letter if you would like to post regarding things I stated, it might clarify things that may have muttled along the way. Thanks.

[Ben and Me]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is it a given that everything Stacia Madden says is absolutely true and impossible to disagree with?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. But I don't see why she would come on this board and say things that weren't true. She has nothing to gain from it. She has already stated that she will continue to support the NHS for hunters and jumpers, which actually make up the bulk of the horse show, so it seems obvious to me that her comments are not self-serving. In addition, 99% of the people that participate on this board are never going to qualify for the National, so why would she feel the need to try and convince them not to? Doesn't add up, NoNonsense.

Anyone can complain about a horse show, but I tend to believe people that were actually at the horse show about the conditions, not people that heard it second or third hand.

[Snowbird]

J.Turner what is your passionate desire to suddenly identify an unknown screen name, WHY? Is it because someone disagrees intelligently without name calling without venom. Is it that you need someone to blame beccause you have been wronged? I have been on here for years and no one ever really cares who the unknown is.

Some have come pretending to be attornies, accountants and we don't ask if they are real. But we listen!

I don't know who you are J.Turner maybe you are someone I should know! Like Stacia I happen to be one of those people who am what I am like it or not. Suppose I told you that NoNonsense was an attorney specializing in corporate law. How would that change your life or the accuracy of what she says. There are a lot of people out here who we do not know as to their real identity. Maybe some are in the witness protection system for having been whistle blowers or maybe it's just a drone from an office somewhere is she entitled to an opinion. How is you life enriched to know?

There was a time a while back when I was accused of having 25 alters and the BB was just a conversation between me and my alternate personalities. It wasn't true but it didn't change your life or mine except to give me a big chuckle. Actually my split personalities only has 6 alters we have identified.

For those of you who think this is "Old School" in cognito the other infamous troll it is not; I know that "Old School" is busy at a wedding.

J.Turner why not just address the issues raised by NoNonsense. To me it feels like we have become a herd of horses and being pushed into a stampede.

Stacia, I appreciate very much the time you took to explain to me the length and breath of your experience on Sunday. I understand better although I still don't agree. Whoever this person was that posted your letter was not a friend of yours of that I am sure. I am delighted that we have gotten past a blanket condemnation of the Metropolitan and the sense that we all had to choose Syracuse as an alternative.

I believe we all love the Maclay and we all wish it to grow better all the time. I hope that while you are looking for ways you will consider what we can do to increase participation in all Equitation Classes. That to me is the real blight on this sport. You can be very proud that you and Frank are just one of the very few who even think Equitation matters any more.

I think we all need to start out understanding that we all share an interest inbetter shows we just may not agree on the way to accomplish that mission.

[NoNonsense]

Just to clear this little fact up for anyone who read my last post in the way KHobstetter did.

I was at NYC as I previously mentioned -- Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. But I was not there overnight before the Maclay, and I did not watch EVERY ROUND of the Maclay. I'm into it, but not into it 100+ rounds worth.

What I saw myself, I related as my own observation. What I repeated from others, I clearly indicated.

"Truth" and "facts" are matters of observation -- I don't dispute that Stacia Madden thought the footing "substandard," but many, many others did not. I included the observations of others as well as my own opinions about the trash and the schooling supervision, which I agree are serious matters.

What I object to and have objected to all along is her cloaking her criticism in the original post as all being about "welfare of the horse," which we are all for, and implying that the management of New York didn't care enough about that, and that the people at Syracuse -- the Maddens -- do and did. Thereby also implying and/or stating that the Maclay should be moved to Syracuse, when it has a home in New York City.

That is her interest and/or her conflict, which she has agreed and disclosed -- because her family runs Syracuse.

So everyone can read and consider all this for what they think it's worth, if anything at all.

Stacia Madden properly seems to be considering all these points carefully and thoughtfully, and we are all grateful for that, including me.

[Just My Style]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So if J. LeRoy was posting under an alter, would you consider that a troll? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Honestly, I wouldn't think that she would post under an alter when she has posted so many times as herself. I really think that if she and Stacia were to sit down and discuss all of these issues, that real progress would be made. They both seem to have good insight and a strong will for change for the better.

[Waterwatch]

Hey FastandClean

Come out, come out wherever you are!

At least give us your opinion on the letter you were so quick to post.

It's easy to launch a grenade and then run for cover.

Barbara

[xegeba]

JustMyStle... I have no thoughts one way or another about who NoNonsense is, nor do I care. Just a rhetorical question.

[Stacia Madden]

NoNonsense-

Lets do another fact check regarding my original letter. Is the line "... asked to make that tough of a decision and feeling as if the welfare of the horse is being disgarded" the feeling of mine you oppose most? That day I felt that way after making the choices we made due to conditions we felt were present. My point in mentioning Syracuse, as hard as it may be to believe for some, was to illustrate a chain of events that did indeed happen in order to give a full and complete picture, and merely to suggest the idea that people recogize there are alternatives, Syracuse or another venue for the ASPCA. DId I ever say or imply that Syracuse did anything related to "the welfare of the horse"? Regarding your statement of the Maclay having a home in New York City, I feel we have the right to know for how long, if in fact it really does? I have not read any statements regarding a guarantee on the home of the Maclay. Have you?

[xegeba]

Here we go Snowbird... You really wonder why people have lost their interest in the Big EQ? Do you even need to wonder? Maybe it is because it costs over 50,000.00 per season to campaign a horse(at that level) and then when you get to the end of the rainbow, you are presented with crappy footing, dangerous schooling rings etc,etc. This is the monster that YOUR profession has created. How refreshing it is to see someone of Mrs. Madden's stature actually voice a concern for the welfare of the rider and horse. The Maclay may have a home in NYC, but the landlords are not taking very good care of the property.

[Stacia Madden]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snowbird:
I am delighted that we have gotten past a blanket condemnation of the Metropolitan and the sense that we all had to choose Syracuse as an alternative.


I do not believe we have had to get past anthing, the letter just had a chance to circulate and I had a chance to explain some points. There was never a "we all to choose Syracuse as an alternative" context, this may have been just what some people were inferring, not reading.

[Hopeful Hunter]

Ms. Madden -- Having just waded through the pages of posts that have come up from your letter, may I first commend you on your clear, consistent professionalism, first in raising a VERY LEGITIMATE concern to the light of day (something done so rarely in our sport it's no wonder it shocks people to see you do this) and then in your consistently graceful response to some nasty attacks. It's about as likely as the proverbial snowball's chances that I'd ever have the resources as an older adult to ride with you or your stables, but from what I've seen of your conduct on this board I am envious of those who do -- they seem to me to have a coach who teaches not only good technique, but good character.

I'd like - as the horse-crazed NJ kid who did see the National at The Garden (and treasures that rare memory) and now as an older, more woldly adult who does PR and Marketing for a living - to comment on one issue that seems to be getting lost. Is it truly possible to run a SAFE, welcoming, appropriate horse show in Manhattan?

I love NY, and Manhattan in particular. I grew up with The City as MY city, a very short ride away. I loved the show at The Garden. But what made it so great WASN"T the show being in NYC, it was that elusive vibe, that sense that this was truly a gathering of outstanding quality. And (although I admit to feeling sadly traitorous for saying this) I'm not at all sure that sensibility couldn't be recreated elsewhere. Even somewhere more appropriate.

How many horse-crazy kids can actually get to NY these days to even see the show? What if the show was in an area more accessible, or even one with other entertainment options that were also more affordable -- could more people then justify going to see it? Do we even KNOW who the spectators were and where they came from and why (basic market research)?

I agree that having the class amid the "big name" classes is special; having it be presented as a big deal is special. But I'm not sure that the physical location is as important to making it special as much as the overall management of the event.

And really....how many of those kids would want to willingly risk the animals that brought them to the class in footing that IS difficult to adjust or even set just to be in NY?

It's something to think about, and something we should imo all be grateful to Ms. Madden for bringing to our attention. We can agree, disagree or have a variety of viewpoints. But I don't think we can afford not to put the horses first, then worry about making the event special and being open to new ways to do that.

[Snowbird]

Where did anyone say that crappy footing was a good idea at any horse show? Sure wasn't me I don't think it's tolerable and I would have made the biggest stink you ever saw if I had been there and what we've been told was true. I would have left with my horses but not quietly and gone home if it was so bad. Do you have any idea what I spend to keep good footing in my rings? Do you even know what the rings at the Metropolitan looked like? Do you even know me? What did I ever say that indicated anywhere that I don't care about the welfare of riders and horses?

Who said dangerous schooling rings were ever OK! Where anywhere was there a single person who approved of dangerous rings at any time?

When did Frank and Stacia Madden leave the profession? The same profession I'm in What did I have to do with anything at the NHS? No money invested, not on staff how was my profession responsible whether the show was the Metropolitan or Syracuse.

What I do care care about is a mob ready to lynch someone with no evidence to sustain that there even was a crime. Get off your high horse and don't judge me until you know me.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>then when you get to the end of the rainbow, you are presented with crappy footing, dangerous schooling rings etc,etc. This is the monster that YOUR profession has created. How refreshing it is to see someone of Mrs. Madden's stature actually voice a concern for the welfare of the rider and horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Madame Butterfly]

I had a wonderful wonderful day today. I made, no, my florescent green horse made such great strides today at a schooling show (a 5th in a 3' jumper class, and he could have done more and gone higher, but, uh, no money, and a loose shoe...)...and then I came back and read all of this...

I stated my opinions earlier, and maybe I have no right, because I am so so far from the political scene,... but all of this "fighting" and vehemence made me feel so bad...

All of you people are so smart, far more important in this business than I, and I got to thinking that the only time life is worth living to me is when I'm on my horse...and if all of you could just realize that feeling and how important it is to all of us, then maybe we would all be a little kinder and a little more gentle with each other -- even when we are disagreeing.

Anyway, I hope the right thing happens, and I hope all of you will get along again...because this business of horses needs all of you.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[springoff]

I am a new poster to this board,but I must say that I read them all the time.This topic,however has compelled me to write.Let me say I am a former NY resident,mother of two junior riders and a professional horsewoman.I have over the years attended the ASPCA Maclay finals in many capacities.First, as a wide eyed "local" crazy horse girl whose only dream was to someday compete at The Garden.Every year my friends and I would make the trek from the East End of LI to watch people we would read about all year in The Chronicle.We would make our picks and root for our favorites,while in hope that we might be able to sit next to a famous trainer and "overhear" some words of wisdom.Yes those were the old days as people say,but they were magical.
Fast forward to the end of the ninties,early 2000 and now I am back for what would be the last year the Maclay was to be held at The Garden in the capacity of trainer,the year Avery Dimmig won.How lucky was she to experience a little of the magic?All of us in retrospect were lucky to feel the glimmer of stardust falling from the past,if only we knew what we were in for......
So here we are in 2004,and I was at the Maclay finals again after trying to keep an open mind from 2003,and there was no stardust to be found!
My child had to qualify to get to the regionals,then get through that process to have the honor to show at the finals.I did not feel the honor.I saw as,Stacia mentioned the garbage everywhere when I returned back on Saturday night.Don't blast me about earlier in the week either,I was there with an adult,I too rode at 3 am early in the week and I too listened as almost everyone I encountered complained about the footing.
My first thought on Saturday pm was my god ,I am glad my child is showing Sunday and not a client because "Daddy" would not be too happy to be spending all this money to put the expensive horse in this garbage pit,and then after having paid all through the year to get here not even being able to see the class go.(from the end of the ring)The best seat in the house,if you did not have a table was in front of the tv moniter in the food area-a thankfully great idea.
I don't think this issue has anything to do with Syracuse at this time,it has to do with people waking up.I for one thought it was a bad production.End of story.I am not so sure that I want to go through the whole process again.I don't think my own child felt it was any more than another show that just happened to be the Maclay finals and for sure the client that showed earlier in the week will save her pennies for another venue.
One of the stong qualities of the Maclay of the past was that it got the aspiring child to come to the show to watch,you cannot watch well at the Pier,it just doesn't happen.
I agree,lets save the Maclay,and not just roll over to a sub-standard production of history. Finally,I would like to congratulate Megan Young and her Mom on her fabulous win,none of these discussions should in any way tarnish her fabulous victory that day.

[Magnolia]

It is ironic that the greatest of all shows, especially one hosting a medal in support of the ASPCA offers the worst conditions for the horses. Would you go to a schooling show offering those conditions?

[Madame Butterfly]

No.

[Weatherford]

I am finding this discussion - which I admit, I missed yesterday while traveling - a bit unfocused and accusing.

I would like to clarify the issue - and let's keep the discussion TO the issues:

1) Conditions at the NHS.
a) footing - was this a problem? There seems to be differing opinions on that - just as there are differing opinions (from those who were there - both Olympic week and at the big International show that followed) on the footing at Athens. Will the issue be resolved? Probably not. The question is DID those who had problems with the footing make their concerns known to managment? What, in turn, did managment do? What do they plan to do in the future?

b) Trash - was THIS a problem? Why? I think it WAS explained by nononsense that the trash WAS picked up in the middle of the night. So, my question is, to echo a long ago op-ed by Denny Emerson, did anyone do anything INDIVIDUALLY about their own trash? Perhaps that is a more global http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif issue/question than just NHS! (It is definitely is an issue that encompasses Ireland, where they tend to NOT have enough trash cans around... nor enough portapotties - but that is another discussion... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

c) General conditions at NHS? How were they? Frankly, and I will admit I was NOT there, they couldn't have been WORSE than the new or old Garden! Yes, the lights and the ring at the MSG were magical, but, behind the scenes? And all those horses that had to work off their trailers? How quick we forget.

2) Conditions for the Maclay - I refer you to the above questions/comments.
a) Is New York City the appropriate place for the Maclay finals? That is another - and I believe - totally separate question - one that should exist apart from the politics and choice of an alternative location. Again, I refer you to previous discussions, where the belief was firm that the finals should be held in NYC at the National. Now, I may be wrong, but I believe the future of the Maclay belongs to the NHS, NOT the ASPCA.

3) Welfare of the horse - everyone who has read my "immoderate" posts over the past five years will know this is one subject about which I am passionate. And it IS a TOTALLY separate issue from that of the horse show. For ANYONE to think this discussion is about horse welfare, I would advise you to remove your blinders. I think we should remove that into a separate discussion. To think one weekend of showing in NYC is more of a detriment to the horse than years of showing ON dexamethazone (to mention one drug) is just ridiculous. (I promise, I won't say more on the subject in this thread.)

My suggestion is to separate out the issues, so we can discuss them both in general and in reference to all the shows. IS there a reason to KEEP the NHS in New York City? Is there a reason to keep the Maclay in NY? If not, where WOULD be the best place for it? (Las Vegas?? Lexington?? LA??)

ANd these questions relate very much to the OTHER indoor East Coast shows - there were a lot of complaints about Washington, too? IS there an answer?

So - I am closing this discussion and starting these new threads with an eye to gaining something productive.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>b) Trash - was THIS a problem? Why? I think it WAS explained by nononsense that the trash WAS picked up in the middle of the night. So, my question is, to echo a long ago op-ed by Denny Emerson, did anyone do anything INDIVIDUALLY about their own trash? Perhaps that is a more global issue/question than just NHS! (It is definitely is an issue that encompasses Ireland, where they tend to NOT have enough trash cans around... nor enough portapotties - but that is another discussion... ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am guessing that the trash issue, and hours of [mass] pickup, is a union issue, not decided or determined by the horseshow management.

[farmgirl]

I would just simply like to compliment the Maddens on a decision based upon the welfare of their horses... I would always want my trainer to make a decision for my horse and not for the ribbon.