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dodedo
Sep. 27, 2010, 09:56 AM
As I understand it effective on 12/31/2010 the new rule will be enforced that will allow only 1 NSAID be used at rated shows.
Will this put alot of really nice horses out of a job?
I do know that if they are not sound they should not compete but that being said there are horses that love doing what they do and they love to show but the stress of doing a show with no turn out etc makes a second NSAID helpful.
It may keep some from showing week after week after week which I think is a good thing.
Just wondering what the thoughts are on this rule change.
I wonder how many owners are aware if they are not involved in the care of their or their kids horses. You know....the kind of owner that just writes the checks and never asks the questions,,,

theinstigator
Sep. 27, 2010, 09:59 AM
Is it too early for beer and popcorn? ;)

loshad
Sep. 27, 2010, 10:15 AM
Beer probably. Would you like a mimosa or a Bloody Mary?

OP, do a search. If I'm not mistaken, there was a HUGE thread on this about a month ago.

Janet
Sep. 27, 2010, 10:34 AM
...makes a second NSAID helpful.
Every veterinary study I have heard of has clearly shown that a second NSAID is NEVER helpful.

danceronice
Sep. 27, 2010, 10:39 AM
It may be too early for beer, but it is never too early for Scotch.

DMK
Sep. 27, 2010, 10:47 AM
2nd NSAID? Add every doctor I've met along with every vet who says a 2nd NSAID is never helpful.

But damn, if you can't get it done with dex, robaxin, 1 NSAID, adequan, legend and a new centurion blanket, maybe it's time to rethink the program?

I'll have my popcorn please.

tidy rabbit
Sep. 27, 2010, 11:07 AM
X(

.

what DMK said.

dodedo
Sep. 27, 2010, 11:15 AM
I agree with the new rule myself. Def didn't want to open a "can o worms" here so sorry if that is the case.
I did try a search but what I got was that horrible Inj Mag thread.
I was just wondering about the ones that get the 1 plus maybe Surpass or they have been getting Ketophen 6 hours out. I DO NOT have one that needs anything beyond the Ban, and Legend before shows so that is not why I asked. Just curious. Mainly thinking about the ones that really work hard to get the number of shows per year done that are asked of them.

Lord Helpus
Sep. 27, 2010, 11:23 AM
2nd NSAID? Add every doctor I've met along with every vet who says a 2nd NSAID is never helpful.

But damn, if you can't get it done with dex, robaxin, 1 NSAID, adequan, legend and a new centurion blanket, maybe it's time to rethink the program?

I'll have my popcorn please.

Didn't you forget Surpass and just a tad of hormone treatment for that "attitude adjustment"?

I like my popcorn with lots of butter. :)

dodedo
Sep. 27, 2010, 11:33 AM
Uh oh....now I get it why popcorn etc would come in handy! So sorry like I said.
I hate to say this but as far as Depo goes I think it is a great thing! Heck teenagers are terrors and hormones can and do help them (BCP's)
Late middle age women benefit from hormones. Without hormone therapy there would probably be many behind bars for murder!
Maybe my ex would not be an ex if he could have had depo!
Depo vs a labotomy?? Its a toss up!
I should have kept my mouth (or my fingers shut) instead of asking this on this BB but I had no idea the direction it would go!

DMK
Sep. 27, 2010, 11:38 AM
Didn't you forget Surpass and just a tad of hormone treatment for that "attitude adjustment"?

I like my popcorn with lots of butter. :)


LOL, absolutely, depo is a mare's best friend (and a few geldings as well). But surpass will fall into the 1 NSAID rule (as well I know - I DO appreciate my diclofenic!)

KC and the Sunshine Band
Sep. 27, 2010, 12:14 PM
No no, you really should ask and talk about it.

Alot of posters on this board get very agressive and defensive about things because they don't like to be told what they do to their horses to get them to the ring may not actually have the horses best interest in mind, irregardless of what their trainers tell them.


Hush now.... Don't talk about any of that here, or you'll quickly become unpopular.

barnbum81
Sep. 27, 2010, 12:19 PM
No no, you really should ask and talk about it.

Alot of posters on this board get very agressive and defensive about things because they don't like to be told what they do to their horses to get them to the ring may not actually have the horses best interest in mind, irregardless of what their trainers tell them.


Hush now.... Don't talk about any of that here, or you'll quickly become unpopular.

<3 you

flyracing
Sep. 27, 2010, 01:33 PM
I think surpass will see a drop in sales as it is very commonly stacked with bute, equiox, or robaxin. But if you only have one and have to go with nothing for 7 days before a switch can be made, then I see people going with bute or equoix as more likely than surpass.

And don't forget, if your horse colics and needs banamine, it cannot show with any other NSAID for 7 days. You also cant show for 7 days if your horse is already on another NSAID (say they're getting surpass on the hocks) and they colic thursday at a show. Under the old rules you would be able to show again on Saturday (assuming horse is healthy), but under the new rules, the horse will be out for full week.

I think that may do a disservice to horses because owners may choose to withhold banamine to a colicing horse so it can show. We see it many times the week before an FEI event, so I see it going the same way with this. Of course the moral of the story is to have a horse that doesn't need anything the week before and week of showing, but of course we can't all own perfectly healthy 7 year olds :)

GPjumper
Sep. 27, 2010, 02:03 PM
does traumeel count as an Nsaid? I never used it but I know several people who do at night as well as a gram of bute after showing, especially when the horses are stabled with NO turnout for weeks on end (as is the case with some at WEF and other shows that last weeks)

dodedo
Sep. 27, 2010, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE=flyracing;5122759]
robaxin plus 1 NSAID= 2 NSAIDs

Just so you know :)
_________________
Not true, Robaxin (Methocarbamol) is a Muscle Relaxer
doesn't count as an NSAID and can be used in conjunction.

DMK
Sep. 27, 2010, 02:38 PM
yup, there is absolutely nothing in the current and future rule prohibiting robaxin+NSAID (not to mention that it isn't an NSAID). Dex is also a potent anti-inflammatory, but NOT an NSAID.

ETA, while I agree you might find yourself missing a show due to the rule change, and it would kind of suck if that show was Devon and it was one of those "not really a colic" colics (been there done that, gave the shot of banamine) and your horse had already had another NSID that week for whatever reason, it's just part and parcel of all the other "life ain't fair" moments we live through with horses. Set that one up on the shelf next to speshul moments like "hot nail" or "abscess" or "15 stitches and I did everything but wrap you up in bubble wrap and put you in a padded stall?!?!" and then work on honing your sense of humor (so important to horse ownership)

RAyers
Sep. 27, 2010, 03:17 PM
As I understand it effective on 12/31/2010 the new rule will be enforced that will allow only 1 NSAID be used at rated shows.
Will this put alot of really nice horses out of a job?
I do know that if they are not sound they should not compete but that being said there are horses that love doing what they do and they love to show but the stress of doing a show with no turn out etc makes a second NSAID helpful.
It may keep some from showing week after week after week which I think is a good thing.
Just wondering what the thoughts are on this rule change.
I wonder how many owners are aware if they are not involved in the care of their or their kids horses. You know....the kind of owner that just writes the checks and never asks the questions,,,


From a purely uniformed point of view, please help me understand why stacking NSAIDS is beneficial? Maybe I have missed something in the medical literature. I don't know but I would like to understand the perspective as to why this rule would be detrimental to the sport? How long are these horses on the road to need this many drugs?

From the medical literature I read, extended use and stacking of NSAIDS lead to renal lesions, potentially ulcerative colitis, while failing to alleviate the condition causing the lameness. While combinations such as bute and ketophen can be used synergistically to help short term in a CLINICAL environment, the above mentioned side effects become prevalent as time is extended beyond a few weeks. To me, the rule makes great sense and can help force horsemanship back onto the trainers and riders.

Reed

Janet
Sep. 27, 2010, 03:19 PM
Dex is also a potent anti-inflammatory, but NOT an NSAID.

Yeh, Dex is a STEROID, so it can't be a NON-STEROIDAL Anti Inflamatory Drug.

But Robaxin is a muscle relaxant, not an Anti Inflamatory (steroidal or non-steroidal)

flyracing
Sep. 27, 2010, 03:19 PM
ETA, while I agree you might find yourself missing a show due to the rule change, and it would kind of suck if that show was Devon and it was one of those "not really a colic" colics (been there done that, gave the shot of banamine) and your horse had already had another NSID that week for whatever reason, it's just part and parcel of all the other "life ain't fair" moments we live through with horses. Set that one up on the shelf next to speshul moments like "hot nail" or "abscess" or "15 stitches and I did everything but wrap you up in bubble wrap and put you in a padded stall?!?!" and then work on honing your sense of humor (so important to horse ownership)

I agree... but I think many people will choose to NOT give banamine in hopes of being able to show rather than sucking it up like you say. For that, I wish banamine could be given with a vets note and filing a med form, but maybe people will prove me wrong and pull their horses and give them banamine on top of their "show prep" or maybe they will just show them anyways...

No way to make things perfect.

DMK
Sep. 27, 2010, 03:21 PM
true dat, but there are a lot of people who make bad decisions for their horse every day (and a lot more who try to make the right decision). It's tough to craft a rule entirely around the former's actions...

dodedo
Sep. 27, 2010, 04:32 PM
From a purely uniformed point of view, please help me understand why stacking NSAIDS is beneficial? Maybe I have missed something in the medical literature. I don't know but I would like to understand the perspective as to why this rule would be detrimental to the sport? How long are these horses on the road to need this many drugs?

From the medical literature I read, extended use and stacking of NSAIDS lead to renal lesions, potentially ulcerative colitis, while failing to alleviate the condition causing the lameness. While combinations such as bute and ketophen can be used synergistically to help short term in a CLINICAL environment, the above mentioned side effects become prevalent as time is extended beyond a few weeks. To me, the rule makes great sense and can help force horsemanship back onto the trainers and riders.

Reed
_----------------------------------
Not uninformed at all.
Never said rule would be detrimental to the sport either.
Agree with the rule 100%
Think horses will be put out of jobs and some owners who are uninformed will be left with an expensive animal that they do not understand why it can't compete anymore.
I think you understood my post differently than it was intended or maybe I misread your intentions.
I am sure you and I are on the same page.

Fluffie
Sep. 27, 2010, 05:12 PM
Alot of posters on this board get very agressive and defensive about things because they don't like to be told what they do to their horses to get them to the ring may not actually have the horses best interest in mind, irregardless of what their trainers tell them.

Or, they get defensive because they don't agree with the camp who believe that no horse should be given anything for any reason, all shows are evil, and those who do show are sadists. :cool:

(FWIW, the most any horse of mine has received at a show was Banamine--not a stacker-druggie. :lol: )

horselesswonder
Sep. 27, 2010, 05:23 PM
With regard to the Banamine/colic issue, it seems the easiest way to avoid this problem would be to switch your NSAID of choice to Banamine (i.e. give Banamine instead of Bute as your regular NSAID for comfort, not just colic). Depending on timing and dosage, this would still allow a horse that may have had a minor colic incident to show.

Also, per the USEF NSAID FAQs posted on the USEF website:


When does the single NSAID rule go into effect?
The rule has an effective date of 12/1/2011.

dodedo
Sep. 27, 2010, 05:39 PM
wow i had the date way wrong! Thanks for that clarification!
The rule doesnt bother me because I dont need 2.
I agree with the banamine idea with the colic issue, especially if you have a horse prone to colic episodes like a cribber.
I did have a lg pony once that was better with Bute than Banamine.
My exp has been that bony issues benefit more from bute and soft tissue more from banamine.
You just have to know your horse and know what works the best!
Dont care what naysayers say.....we take things when we hurt from something or another and our horses have to cart our butts around so they deserve a bit of assistance! I bet if they could they would go to the trunk themselves and grab that tube and dose themselves!:) Especially after a long day of showing!

Sing Mia Song
Sep. 27, 2010, 05:56 PM
I bet if they could they would go to the trunk themselves and grab that tube and dose themselves!:) Especially after a long day of showing!

I bet they would, too, but I also bet they would rather roll over and keep on snoring in the straw the next day!

mvp
Sep. 27, 2010, 05:57 PM
Will this put alot of really nice horses out of a job?


For the foreseeable future, unfortunately the answer is yes.


I agree with the new rule myself. Def didn't want to open a "can o worms" here so sorry if that is the case.
I did try a search but what I got was that horrible Inj Mag thread.
I was just wondering about the ones that get the 1 plus maybe Surpass or they have been getting Ketophen 6 hours out. I DO NOT have one that needs anything beyond the Ban, and Legend before shows so that is not why I asked. Just curious. Mainly thinking about the ones that really work hard to get the number of shows per year done that are asked of them.

And yes for the reasons you mention. Older horses coming back down the ranks will end their show careers sooner than they would have otherwise. I also predict more money spent on joint injections (and more) in an effort to stave off the effects of Osteorthritis just as long as they can.

Since we are eating popcorn, can I add a rant?

You don't need to say "Oh and by the way and just to be sure, I have never given My Horse anything more than Blah Blah of Whatever."

Look, I don't know how you medicate your horse. I don't care.
Since I don't know....
and you know I'll never know....
and you know better than to admit the bad stuff you do do....
(even though no one on the internet knows..... or cares.....)
or rather, the internetting public doesn't care because they know they will never know.....

Can we dispense with the credentialling?

Did you get the part about "I don't care?" and why?

Janet
Sep. 27, 2010, 06:15 PM
For the foreseeable future, unfortunately the answer is yes.



And yes for the reasons you mention. Older horses coming back down the ranks will end their show careers sooner than they would have otherwise. I also predict more money spent on joint injections (and more) in an effort to stave off the effects of Osteorthritis just as long as they can.

BUT-

ALL the REAL veterinary/medical testing shows that the NSAID stacking ISN'T making the horses any sounder, or in less pain.

So when they go back down to ONE NSAID, the horese will NOT be lamer or in more pain.

AFAI can see, the only change would be that people who use an NSAIDg other than bute on a regular basis would have to scratch when a horse colics (rather than adding banamine). But the bute-banamine combination is ALREADY banned, so really not a lot of change there.

But the non-colic-prone horse isn't going to end its career any sooner.

It is the trainers who THINK that NSAID stacking works that will be in distress, not the horses themselves.

CBoylen
Sep. 27, 2010, 07:01 PM
But the bute-banamine combination is ALREADY banned, so really not a lot of change there.

I agree, not much change on the colic situation front. The greater majority of people, in my experience, use bute as their one NSAID (except for those that use Banamine for this very reason). The bute users have never (well, since the 80's anyway) been able to medicate for colic and show with a med report, since there was some language in the rules about the med report not being a viable option for getting around the Bute-Banamine rule. The colic-prone show on Banamine.

I think personally that there are enough options left in the med rules for most cases. I've used two NSAIDs in a couple of instances, mainly because I like Arquel for feet when the going is rough, but have never noticed it to do anything for anything else, and Arquel + Banamine seemed to cover all the bases. But, most likely Arquel + Robaxin or Arquel + Dex would be just as effective in the same situation.

Addison
Sep. 27, 2010, 09:39 PM
JANET...very well said.

Ghazzu
Sep. 27, 2010, 11:03 PM
I bet if they could they would go to the trunk themselves and grab that tube and dose themselves!:) Especially after a long day of showing!

Or maybe they'd just tell you to go pound sand while they spent the day resting...