disciplining a kicker

[magic mushroom]

very inexperienced mare in big groups ( see my post below re: jigging)...took her on her second big outing - 30 horses? lots of trot and some canter, we stayed in the second group ...you could see the horses in the first group at times....we were on a dirt road.. at the walk she jigged only about 50% of the time and actually stood still ( sometimes) at the checks. i was very proud and considered this lots of progess. she never pulled or got strong at the faster gaits, we just stayed alongside her buddy and it was fine. there were moments when i felt her get VERY tense and i made sure i warned all the folks behind me to keep a distance. well...the first group started to canter, and we were about to when we got " rear ended" and my mare let out a nasty kick, when i turned around to see if the girl was OK , my mare did a little twisty thing, and i came off, ( it was actually more like a dismount! ) anyway, it was too late to give her a whack and say NO, BAD GIRL.... but i do not trust her to not kick now....and would like to train this out of her...... someone told me mares who have foaled ( she's had 2 and was the alpha mare in her herd) are more apt to kick..... and yes i know about the red ribbon.. any suggestions?

[magic mushroom]

very inexperienced mare in big groups ( see my post below re: jigging)...took her on her second big outing - 30 horses? lots of trot and some canter, we stayed in the second group ...you could see the horses in the first group at times....we were on a dirt road.. at the walk she jigged only about 50% of the time and actually stood still ( sometimes) at the checks. i was very proud and considered this lots of progess. she never pulled or got strong at the faster gaits, we just stayed alongside her buddy and it was fine. there were moments when i felt her get VERY tense and i made sure i warned all the folks behind me to keep a distance. well...the first group started to canter, and we were about to when we got " rear ended" and my mare let out a nasty kick, when i turned around to see if the girl was OK , my mare did a little twisty thing, and i came off, ( it was actually more like a dismount! ) anyway, it was too late to give her a whack and say NO, BAD GIRL.... but i do not trust her to not kick now....and would like to train this out of her...... someone told me mares who have foaled ( she's had 2 and was the alpha mare in her herd) are more apt to kick..... and yes i know about the red ribbon.. any suggestions?

[fernie fox]

I have absolutely NO time for kickers out hunting.

Having been kicked by a horse that backed 30 feet to get me,I could'nt get away from it,we were on the bank of a canal,I had NO-Where to go.

As far as I'm concerned the rider should have beaten the crap out of the horse to send it forwards.

I have seen too many horrific accidents,kickers should be at the very back of the field.

If your horse even offers to kick,it needs wacking,imediately it pins it's ears.

I am equally hard on people who ride up my butt,stepping on my horse's heels,I will hit them,or threaten them, with my whip if I can reach them.

If your hunt has little kids out ,they are really at risk from a kicking horse.I would never forgive myself if my horse kicked,and hurt an innocent rider.

Just not worth it.

Fly buckers are equally dangerous in my book.

[magic mushroom]

well i'm with you fernie fox, i would have LOVED to have beaten the crap out of her, had i stayed on...

[fernie fox]

Well,there is'nt a lot you can do in that situation.

But the minute you see that ear flicker towards another horse I'd be on her case,verbally and if she does'nt change her attitude Imediately,give her a wallop,preferably on the side she is reacting to,if you know what I mean.

They always give a warning.Unfortunately some folks arent paying attention to their horse's body language and they miss the signs.

[Falstaff]

Can you elaborate about the "no time" for kickers/buckers? All horses will kick/buck - I've seen some very experienced hunters do it - like a mare in season, the first really crisp fall day,that sort of thing. I'm not excusing it of course - just saying I've seen it. I'd chalk it up to a bad day.

I agree to discipline as quickly as possible but am wondering for those of us who may have trouble from time to time -

is it better for a fellow hunter to help the rider through it, talk to the field secretary about it, or hit them with your whip? Which one is more conducive to amicable hunts and the long term viability of the hunt club?

Accidents happen of course, and no one wants to get hurt. I agree that spacing is paramount.

I just got this vision of you (ferniefox) as this formidable huntsman - madly whacking away at lowly mendicants who dare to get too close. I'm kidding, of course. No offense intended.

Am I over reacting to your post or reading something into it that isn't there?

[fernie fox]

Well that really did nearly happen,and I was NOT joking at the time.

Was hacking between covers along a two horse width trail.

The horse behind me was all but stepping on my mares heels,and had been all morning.

Having repeatedly asked this clown to get off my horses heels,I had finally had enough,I turned around,turned my whip so that the handle was close to his horses face.

And in no uncertain terms explained ,that I would knock his horses teeth out followed by his own,if he did not back off.

At the time I was riding beside one of hunting's leading ladies,who said that was the best way she had seen that handled in a long time.

Riding up peoples bums is the ruination of many good horses,and if they start kicking to protect them selves you can't blame them.

Even so kicking is just not acceptable behaviour.

As far as I'm concerned,"known Kickers",have no place in the field.

They are a major liability.

[fernie fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Falstaff:
I just got this vision of you (ferniefox) as this formidable huntsman - madly whacking away at lowly mendicants who dare to get too close. I'm kidding, of course. No offense intended.

Am I over reacting to your post or reading something into it that isn't there? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Actually I had enough people beating,dealing with the anti's in the 60s and 70s in UK.

Nowadays I am a harmless little old lady glad to bring up the rear and watch the antics of others. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Falstaff]

Ahh - I see and understand. And agree. Sometimes the direct approach is the only way to get through to some people!

I have come across several folks in the hunt field that wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire, and those who try to help a new subscriber feel welcome and try to educate them - and get over some of the "growing pains" newcomers and their horses experience the first few seasons. Many of us have to work with what we have - buying a made field hunter is not an option - regardless of how wise it is.

Certainly I would be as assertive as you in the same situation - since the mare mentioned is new to hunting, perhaps experienced hunters could offer constructive criticism and ideas for solving common problems in new hunters. Lord knows my horse has problems jigging and whatnot.

I'm afraid that I don't see the enthusiastic support for new hunters that I see in other horse sports. It seems that the hunts want new members, but don't dare make a mistake once you get in.

I don't mean to cast aspersions on any person or hunt - these are just my observations.

[gothedistance]

magic mushroom -

Put both a red AND a green ribbon in your mare's tail, and the next time you go out keep to the back of the field and watch carefully who is behind you. At any halt turn your mare slightly sideways to the line so that she can't kick anyone unless she spins her butt. And you keep your whip at the ready (in case she starts to pivot) to "remind" her that kicking will have dire consequences... from you. You'd be amazed at how much better horses behave when they are caddy-corner to the line with their vision capturing both front and rear, and not having to worry they are going to get rammed unexpectedly from behind. It's also easier for the rider to scope out the manners of the horses behind as well... and to see (and be able to react to) the very situation that happened to you and your mare. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you notice the rider behind you being less than reasonably in control, either move forward in the group, or drop back behind the offending horse.

The hunt trail rides around here have ramped up to a lot of cantering and hand gallops to have everyone ready for cubbing.. and we've been doing a lot of abrupt changes of gait without notice. I've learned to keep my eyes at least three horses ahead of me as advance warning for changes of pace, and been throwing up my hand when the pace throttles down abruptly. More than once I've been gratefully thanked by the riders behind me for the visual "halt" -- I'm pretty sure a fair number would have careened into me (since I have a very athletic pony who can stop on a dime) had I not warned them of a sudden halt.

My astute watch of those behind me has saved my pony from being used as a crash dummy numerous times... but not until I'd already been crashed into TWICE by the same person on our very first trail ride, and saw with horror that my sweet, loving, good natured pony's surprised look at the stupid horse behind him turned (at the second crash) into a pissed-off look accompanied by a lifted back foot as an implied warning on what would happen if there was a third crash. (Mind you, this horse behind me ended up with his d**n head in my lap, the rider apologizing profusely!) My guy had never offered to kick another horse in his life even in the tightest of group situations, and I didn't want to see it happen ... even once! I immediately moved him forward in the line more than happy to let the rider crash into someone else. I now ride defensively and have *no* problem moving out of line and finding another spot in the group if I feel I've got a yahoo behind me.

Better safe than sorry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[fernie fox]

Leg yielding is your best friend out hunting,it gets you out of all sorts of trouble.

[Falstaff]

Amen!

[xeroxchick]

Fernie Fox, I am glad to know that I am not the only one who will jump all over someone riding up on my horse like that. Especially infuriating at a flat gallop in a wide open 400 acre field http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Sometimes I put a red ribbon in tail just to keep the goofballs away. That being said, I, also have seen horrible accidents from kicks (broken legs, horses put down...) and would highly recommend a sound thrashing for it and stay at the back - very back.

[xeroxchick]

Oh, and one more thing. Has anyone else ever watched an experienced hunt member give a goofball the "Would you like to Pass?" icy stare as a response to being crowded? NOT a compliment, Newbies!!!!!!!

[armandh]

when new to hunting mine kicked out at a passing hound. a couple of jerks on the curb reins plus verbal reinforcement and he hasn't done it in the years since. much to my relief.
he is however hard to stop with all that bulk moving, so i have had much practice avoiding others. we have had a few bounce off his back end, fortunately with out any injury. to find one his size with the control of his predecessor would be perfect, but sometimes ya just gotta deal with what ya got.

[Ivy Foxhunter]

The biggest problem I've noted is an unwillingness to truly discipline a kicker. I've seen horses kick out unprovoked only to receive a light tap or a verbal reprimand. When you reprimand a horse, you must USE YOUR CROP, and use it HARD! If it doesn't produce a loud WHACK sound then you're not really giving it enough effort.

I've seen too many people take far too cavalier an attitude towards their horse's kicking. In my mind any horse can kick if provoked, but those who kick repeatedly do not belong anywhere in the hunt field. Just my opinion.

Don

[Falstaff]

But what is a "newbie" supposed to do when a long term hunt member is riding a known kicker, doesn't have a ribbon in the tail, and proceeds to scream at you if you get within 3 horse lengths of her horse?

How are the new guys to the hunt supposed to deal with this?

I keep thinking of ways to make my horse less anxious about hunting - but maybe, just maybe, part of his anxiety is because I'm so worried about incurring the wrath of long time hunt members that we're both basket cases.

I think, generally, newbies are eager to learn - and there is so much to learn.

Safety first, always. I really enjoy foxhunting and am glad to have the opportunity to do so. But I tell you this: newcomers should be made to feel welcome and part of the hunt - if that means an experienced hunt member should team up with the newbie they should do so - it's to the benefit of all - and to the future of foxhunting. Snide remarks, dirty looks, cold silences do less to educate the newcomer than to drive potentially good foxhunters away.

[nowoncourse]

Getting side tracked...

Falstaff "I'm afraid that I don't see the enthusiastic support for new hunters that I see in other horse sports. It seems that the hunts want new members, but don't dare make a mistake once you get in. "

I have to say this is my biggest worry about joining a hunt. I love to hunt, hunted in college, and have been asked to join. But now that my mare is super fit (I event her) she can be hard to handle for the first few gallops and I dread being asked to leave the field! She can be great once she settles (she doesn't kick or anything, just loves to run and run and run) but I'm too nervous about the first hour of her jigging and not standing at checks to give it another try this winter. I know once she gets out a few times she'll be great but I worry about others thinking she's too "fresh" for the hunt field. It would be nice if there was some sort of "intro" hunts for those with greenier horses who want to train them to be hunters.
Just a thought.

[Foxhunt4me]

Falstaff wrote:
"newcomers should be made to feel welcome and part of the hunt - if that means an experienced hunt member should team up with the newbie they should do so - it's to the benefit of all - and to the future of foxhunting"

That is the solution I was going to suggest - pair your new folks up with a seasoned member that will be better at correcting the bad behavior of the seasoned member out in the field than the new person.

I remember instructing a woman who had a gelding that she needed to ride at the back as her horse was kicking out ( and she had a hard time controlling the horse ) she proceeded to ignore me until her horse laid a bad kick into a long time member of the hunt. I think that in her case she was just overmatched by that horse and should not have been out there but given her time in the hunt nobody ( other than me ) wanted to correct her. In general .

Out here, I see very few people in the hunt field that really do any correction of people for improper safety / riding considerations or etiquette I think that most folks are so worried about potentially insulting / angering someone. It does distress me when even the field master or riding secretary overlook potentially dangerous situations.

I was hit in the knee by a shot from a horse that went out of his way to get at my horse two years ago so I am sensitive to this issue.

I have a little less concern about my horse kicking someone that runs into us - I have never had this happen, but I would not be too upset at my horse if he kicked someone that smashed into us ( not just a little bump or just following too closely ).

I agree 100% that a safe hunt horse should not kick at all in tight quarters.

Nowdays, I ride to the outside of the group when I can so I have no horse on one side of me which gives me room to move if I need to, I don't really like being boxed in - it limits your options.

[Ivy Foxhunter]

Our hunt hosts a series of summer trail rides that provide a great opportunity to bring out green horses and work on any "issues" they may have.

My complaint is not with greenies in the hunt field, but rather with experienced foxhunters who persist in bringing known, agressive kickers into the field, and then riding up front. And when the horse inveitably kicks, they have a million and one excuses for why he or she was "provoked"

[fernie fox]

Falstaff you make a very good point,as to HOW newbies get started.

I am a firm believer in linking up with an experienced person the first few times out.

Unfortunately what don said,I agree with too.

I will give credit to someone who gives their horse a serious walloping for kicking or any other unsocial behaviour,what really pisses me off,is those that, just do nothing to the horse when it has kicked out or threatened any other horse.No apology nada.

As far as a long term member on a known kicker.

IF I was the Master they would be asked to leave ill-mannered horse at home.

Sorry but "safety" is paramount.In the case of Kicking horses,it is normally a totally innocent horse/person that gets kicked.

I will take out any newbie that wants to come out,I am happy to ride at the back and explain to you what is going on ect.

I like introducing new folks to hunting,it is my heritage,and want to see hunting continue for many more generations to come.

[Falstaff]

I didn't mean to digress but it seems that a some of the posts on this forum are from newbies, and I don't always find the replies necessarily helpful to overcoming a problem. (although I can understand why the folks are peeved)

I was told it's best not to start the season (cubbing) with a really fit horse; which seems counterintuitive but upon examination makes sense. A really fit horse (like eventing fit) may be hard to settle. I've been told a good hunt horse will learn to keep quiet at checks to rest up.

It's a learning curve for the horse too - I suggest a foxhunting camp, hunt trail rides and of course, cubbing if your hunt allows members to attend. That's what I did - and that's how I fell in love with hunting. Not the mad gallops across hill and dale - but the tradition, the sport, the cry of the hounds, the sun rising through a mist above a fall meadow, a really cool earth...

If you can do it, ride during the week. The fields are smaller (often faster) but if your horse has trouble settling in large groups, it may be helpful. It's also easier to get to know people and have them get to know you. Weekend hunts are so big....

Unfortunately for those who wish I would take up golf, I plan on hunting this season.

Again, sorry to digress.

[Foxhunt4me]

"IF I was the Master they would be asked to leave ill-mannered horse at home."

Right on Fernie..

I am sure that there are many that do this but some are wishy washy on enforcing safe behavior in the field so you need to watch out for yourself. Many hunts have a non MFH as field Master so that probably makes them less likely to take a stand.

After a while riding with a hunt you will establish which riders and horses are good and safe to ride with and jump behind ! If you are riding in the rear you can make mental notes of horses to avoid.

Opening hunts, joint hunts , junior hunts and other days when there are a lot of new hunters, visitors and the folks that come out once or twice a year seem to be the most dangerous in my experience.

[Foxhunt4me]

Falstaff wrote: "I was told it's best not to start the season (cubbing) with a really fit horse, A really fit horse (like eventing fit) may be hard to settle "

I am not sure there is always a correlation between a horses fitness and their mental attitude.

I also would not advise letting your horse slack off because you do not want him too fit for cubbing.

You can always get to the meet early and work the horse a bit to burn off the edge.

[Ivy Foxhunter]

Falstaff wrote "I don't always find the replies necessarily helpful to overcoming a problem. "

You have a good point. And bringing newbies into the sport is critical. I am only 33 and I worry about the relatively small numbers of younger fox hunters.

One thing that may prove useful in this situation is to bring along a barn buddy when you go out. The Mare is probably less inclined to act up if she has a friend. Also, I find that a long ride the day before a hunt and cutting back or eliminating grain for 36 hours prior to hunting helps a lot.

And yes, when you're on a greenie avoid Opening Meet, Junior Day, or any other High Holy Days, as they tend to mean large crowds.

And just have fun. The more relaxed the rider, the more relaxed the horse!

Don

[Falstaff]

FOxhunt4me - I agree with you - in the context of the conversation about fitness it was more than physical fitness, it was about how to get your horse fit, when it should reach peak fitness, keep it fit and keep it sane. An event horse at peak fitness for its level being asked - to - wham - let's go foxhunting - is a big change for it. It may also be harder to maintain peak fitness over a long period.

I can second the comment about the joint meet and opening meets being dangerous. That's when I saw the most larking, thrusting and coffeehousing. It's a great time to volunteer and not hunt!

[Falstaff]

Well, Don, I'm older than you and I'm one of the younger members of my hunt. So what does that mean for the future of foxhunting?

Eventing is having similar trouble. In order to get to the upper levels you have to start at the bottom. The lower levels are the backbone of the sport and those riders need to be encouraged and mentored by more the more experienced in order to keep the sport thriving.

Same with hunting - that is my belief.

But for now, I will arrive at the meets much earlier, relax the death grip on the reins, and try not to be so uptight. Thanks.

[Jaegermonster]

My mare was insane the first season I hunted her. She had been a wonderful show horse, we went camping, on trail rides and everything else with no problems, and she is not a "mare-y mare". Even if she were, I would never use that as an excuse for bad manners, I think its insulting..but I digress....
Anyway, I could tell she was misbehaving not just to be a brat but because she was very upset and overwrought about something but I could not figure out what. In any event, she took a swing at someone on two seperate occasions, and each time she got pounded by me so that she thought all the hounds of hell had descended upon her. To this day she will do all her airs above the ground but will not take a swing at anyone. Anyway, at that time our hunt had a prohibition against standing martingales (which has since been rescinded) so I used a running martingale for hunting. It took me awhile to figure it out, but soon I realized that other than the environment, the only change was the martingale. So one day I took the running martingale off and she was like the same old horse again. Everybody was amazed at the change. She just absolutely hated that thing.
SO what I am trying to say is that sometimes it isn't just being bad, there may be an issue that you haven't thought of. There might be something bothering him. But you should still pound them when they swing at others, just give them the consideration of investigating other causes too. And I pretty much concur with what has already been said.

[imissvixen]

People used to get annoyed with me but I always keep my distance in the huntfield and I expect others to stay away from me. I don't jump a fence until the person in front of me has gone over and away, I watch three or four horses ahead and stop when they stop, and I am very intolerant of people running up on me. It's hard to blame a horse for kicking out when someone plows into it at a high speed. Of course that too is the advantage of keeping distance between you and the horse ahead because if the horse behind you isn't stopping you have room to maneuver.

The other thing is if you are worried about your horse kicking have a friend who can stop ride behind you. I have had people who were worried about their horse's behavior ask me to ride behind them and was happy to do it because I knew I wasn't going up their butt.

[Arado]

I am having very mixed feelings as I would love to hunt but my horse will on occassion kick,not to be dirty mind you but as an omgosh I feel good.He is an ottb and lovesssssssss to trail ride but even last night while out on a trail we cantered down a path along a field of soybeans we come back to a trot and wham one lil kick .I had read this thread yesterday and I did immediately discipline him which in the past I had hesitated to do as I knew it wasnt out of meaness or pure ornery.
Is this a horse better left at home??I often wondered as I did not want to create a problem for anyone on the hunt field but miss it and would love to go back to hunting on occassion .
I think we and it is our job to be aware of our surroundings.
wouldany of you make an attempt to hunt this horse?

[Jaegermonster]

I would hunt your horse no problem. You just need to remember that leg yielding is your friend http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifand have your stick at the ready to pound her silly if she even picks up a hind foot, and get her before it hits the ground. They just have to have it made clear that that type of behavior is not acceptable under any circumstances. And don't forget your red ribbon and try to stay to the back at least for awhile.

[Scaredacoops]

Kickers can be extremely annoying and dangerous to both horse and rider. I received a kick on the shin, which was intented for my horse, while trail riding once that split my shin all the way to the bone. It was one of those situations where we were standing and the horse just backed up and let it fly. My first year of hunting a horse backed up while at a check and kicked my horse in the leg. It nicked an artery and bled profusely. I had to have an emergency vet called to the hunt to suture my horse to the tune of almost $300. There were no offers from the kicker's owner to help with the bill. Discipline for kicking that I have witnessed has been immediately letting them have it with a crop and a gruff voice or even spinning the in a circle - whatever it takes to let them know you are not happy. If a horse can't be trusted not to kick I think they should ride at the back with the other kickers and not make it miserable for others.

As for following too closely... I had someone riding so close on my horse that the other horse stepped on my horse's foot, slicing the bulb of his heel and pulling off his shoe. When they get too close now I pull aside and tell them I think their horse wants to be in front of mine.

Three weeks 'till cubbing!

[TamaraC]

I have never been on a hunt...but I do have a horse who was known for kicking. He would back up, spin, pivot, do everything in his power to throw a kick out. I'm sorry but I don't agree that kicking the sh*t out of your horse will solve the problem, most of the times they have no idea what they are being stung and yelled at for. Horses generally kick because they have personal space and respect issues. They are more worried about being the alpha in their herd than respecting you as an alpha. We have to remember they do not think and reason as we do; to a horse, sitting on their back and waving a stick around and screaming is hardly horse alpha behavior. I'm a firm believer that problems must be solved on the ground before
they can be solved in the tack.
Scaredacoops mentioned circling; I found this to be a godsend to my horse when I first tried to tackle his kicking issue. My horse has 4 distinct stages of firing up for the kick, which I knew well so I could always catch him on time. The circle is a way of disengaging the hind end which to them is considered a form of work, and it immediately puts their focus on you and says that you are in control of their body and movements. Anytime that horse does something undesireable, do a circle (or one rein stop as i call them) and their attention is back on to you.
On the ground it was easier to master because i would swiftly do some dominating and threatening horse-behavior to him which quickly made him realise he had no right to threaten others, because i would threaten him back - and in a language he could understand. He has not threatened to kick a horse, even on the ground, in the past 5 months. I can even take him to shows now and actually ride him in the arena with others, somethign i was too terrified to do before.
JMO but I found this way more humane and got better results with my hrose than going crazy on him with a whip. Good luck with your problem, there is always hope.

[imissvixen]

Well, there are definitely all kinds of kickers. I think it's one thing if your horse will kick out if getting crowded or pushed by the horse behind you. It is a very different thing if your horse is more of a random kicker or if it has such a wide territorial zone that it really mucks up the order in the hunt field. Hunting is already a pretty dangerous activity so if your horse is of the random kicking ilk I think it is not meant to be a hunter.

[jepmor729]

nowoncourse, can you hack to meets?
Or get there early & hack around for half an hour?
Just getting the *tickle* out of the exuberant
ones can help.
Please send positive thoughts to England, their
fight to keep their right to Hunt is still in
jeopardy, check out the Countryside Alliance to help any way we can-----

[littlecreek]

I own a horse who had kicked maybe 3-4 times during a so far 11 year career as a hunter. Unfortunately he was started kicking when a long time member was out on a really unsuitable young horse he was badly overmounted on. It took off with him and he decided to try and use the back end of my then not quite 5 yo guy for brakes, nearly knocking us to our collective knees; no easy feat when you are just shy of 18hh and 1800 lbs. Just after that someone else stepped on his heels and cut him. After that he is fine walking,trotting, standing at checks cantering in a controlled fashion but let someone come sifting up our butt at a gallop and they better have their health insurance paid up. I do use a red ribbon and warn newbies as well as trying to stay out of the way. He gets the crap beaten out of him when he does, but as its usually at a gallop it can be exciting.
If you take this same horse to a show with the busiest jumper warm up ring he's fine. Its only hunting.
The one GOOD thing was a member who was eventually kicked out kept trying to tear up to the front (he http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifthought this was funny and incredibly wimpy masters kept doing nothing)so my big guy and I became "the enforcer". I rode about 3-4 places back from the front. Whenever the idiot decided to try his moves he's encounter our "big guns". The guy never figured it out but his horse sure did ina hurry and wouldn't come near the front if we were there.

[Jaegermonster]

Well, I must say that someone who has never hunted has no business telling those who do how to handle their horses in the hunt field. A foxhunt is a totally different animal that a hunter show, which is about as far removed from the hunt field as you can get, or from any other equestrian activity for that matter.
Due to the conditions under which a foxhunt is conducted, KICKING IS UNACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY AND ALL CIRCUMSTANCES and discipline must be quick, sure and absolute. It is bad enough to have a kicker or one that threatens in the hunt field, but it is even worse to have one that is ridden by someone who refuses to deal with the problem. Nowhere was it mentioned "kicking the crap" out of the horse. I have found one or two immediate and direct whacks with a crop to get the point across, but it must be immediate. Not, "Oh my god did he kick you" tap tap while looking sheepish/ It's hoof lifted, whack whack with your crop,then "I'm very sorry my horse swung at you" while bowing and genuflecting.
Now that we have gotten that out of the way, anyone who has never hunted and would like to try please come out and learn about the sport and why things are the way they are. We always like to have new people come out and be exposed to our wonderful sport.

[TamaraC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaegermonster:
Well, I must say that someone who has never hunted has no business telling those who do how to handle their horses in the hunt field. A foxhunt is a totally different animal that a hunter show, which is about as far removed from the hunt field as you can get, or from any other equestrian activity for that matter.
Due to the conditions under which a foxhunt is conducted, KICKING IS UNACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY AND ALL CIRCUMSTANCES and discipline must be quick, sure and absolute. It is bad enough to have a kicker or one that threatens in the hunt field, but it is even worse to have one that is ridden by someone who refuses to deal with the problem. Nowhere was it mentioned "kicking the crap" out of the horse. I have found one or two immediate and direct whacks with a crop to get the point across, but it must be immediate. Not, "Oh my god did he kick you" tap tap while looking sheepish/ It's hoof lifted, whack whack with your crop,then "I'm very sorry my horse swung at you" while bowing and genuflecting.
Now that we have gotten that out of the way, anyone who has never hunted and would like to try please come out and learn about the sport and why things are the way they are. We always like to have new people come out and be exposed to our wonderful sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough, I was only trying to offer some insight from someone who has dealt with a kicker and has conquered the problem. After all, I never claimed to have any knowledge about hunting, only kicking. So by the same token, we could all win by being more open minded and accepting our way isn't always the only way.

I am bringing along a 2yo whom I am hoping to experience some hunts with in the future (ok, far future!!) I am still a little shy as far as jumps go and though i am aware that there are hunts where you don't need to jump, she will be awhile before she is ready. Im not so sure my little 15hh quarab would be up for it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh yes, and as far as for the "kicking the crap out of the horse comment" i was thinking of fernie fox's comment when I wrote it: "As far as I'm concerned the rider should have beaten the crap out of the horse to send it forwards." But my comment was not just directed at repeatedly whipping a horse, even just one whack and I was sharing my experience of another solution to this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jaegermonster]

I definitely agree that the kinder gentler way is usually the best way to go when circumstances allow when you are dealing with horses. That is the main reason for my homebred yearling. I wanted to avoid having to fix the rough treatment her mother received at the hands of others before I found her, that I am feeling the effects of to this day. And definitely when you can work on stuff at home you should.
That was hard for me to do because the only time she got crappy was in the hunt field, never at home. So it had to be swift sure and direct, and it only took twice to get the point across.
Fernie will back me up on this, in the hunt field, horses (and hounds) have been crippled or had to be put down, hounds have been scared to the point of never being able to hunt again, and riders have been seriously injured and few even killed all due to kickers. Often due to the circumstances or the situation when hunting you are in very close quarters and the kicker and kickee are unable to get away from each other so then you have a brawl with two riders and the rest of the field involved. So that is a very serious infraction in the hunt field. If you ever get a chance to attend or ride at a hunt you will understand why in a matter of mere seconds. You really need to instantaneously take about 3 seconds to make them think they are about to die as soon as that foot comes up. That really is all it takes. You dont have to beat on them it usually doesn't take that much.

[TamaraC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaegermonster:
I definitely agree that the kinder gentler way is usually the best way to go when circumstances allow when you are dealing with horses. That is the main reason for my homebred yearling. I wanted to avoid having to fix the rough treatment her mother received at the hands of others before I found her, that I am feeling the effects of to this day. And definitely when you can work on stuff at home you should.
That was hard for me to do because the only time she got crappy was in the hunt field, never at home. So it had to be swift sure and direct, and it only took twice to get the point across.
Fernie will back me up on this, in the hunt field, horses (and hounds) have been crippled or had to be put down, hounds have been scared to the point of never being able to hunt again, and riders have been seriously injured and few even killed all due to kickers. Often due to the circumstances or the situation when hunting you are in very close quarters and the kicker and kickee are unable to get away from each other so then you have a brawl with two riders and the rest of the field involved. So that is a very serious infraction in the hunt field. If you ever get a chance to attend or ride at a hunt you will understand why in a matter of mere seconds. You really need to instantaneously take about 3 seconds to make them think they are about to die as soon as that foot comes up. That really is all it takes. You dont have to beat on them it usually doesn't take that much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said! I better realise your point of view now. From what you say of hunting I think i'll stay at home in the tame arena for a while http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif What is the average amount of years of riding experience the normal hunt person has? (before they begin to hunt?)

[imissvixen]

I have known people in the huntfield that have ridden for 50 years and those that have ridden for 1 year. I can say with impunity that the ones that have been out there for awhile are riding really well-behaved hunt horses. And often the ones with very little experience are also riding really well-behaved hunt horses. So I think it's not about the experience of the rider but the experience of the horse. That's why it's so frigging hard to find a good hunt horse. People rarely have to do much work to sell them and usually only sell them under extenuating circumstances.

[J Swan]

I agree - a good hunting horse costs a fortune. And they are worth every penny. That's why many experienced horsemen just have to try out hunting with what they have and see if the horse takes to it.

It's interesting you ask about experience because I know a couple of folks who started riding in their late 40's - not hunting - riding - just so they could foxhunt. They are doing splendidly.

Then you have people like me who have been riding since they were kids, and just took up hunting. Can't afford a made hunter so just try what they have and learn as much as possible. It helps if experienced hunters take you under their wing and help you get over the rough spots.

My horse (who is not a habitual kicker), offered a leg last year when some horses came up behind him too fast. He was justified, but I still whacked him 3 times - just like I corrected him when I evented. whack whack whack - NO.

Don't stay in the tame arena! Get your horse exposed to new things. If you can walk trot and canter under control, know enough to stay off your horse's back and off his mouth, and can hold a good 2point position, there is no reason you can't foxhunt.

[Jaegermonster]

I rode with BNT hunter jumper as a kid, because that's all there was in my area, and she would let me work off lessons, and I rode everything I could get a saddle on. Then after college I was horseless for 10 years before I got my mare. One day I got a wild hare and found a foxhunt and off I went. My learning curve has been tremendous, and it has been so rewarding.
Basically you need to be fairly confident and be able to walk, trot and canter in open country in a group comfortably and in control. Depending on your hunt and territory being able to jump a respectable obstacle safely is probably a good thing too. Obviously the more experienced or reliable your mount is the better. You guys can cancel each other out sometimes or be opposed in experience and ability (like a kid on a packer sort of thing). But it is true a made nice hunt horse is worth his weight in gold. My mare is hot and when she gets on a tear it makes for a long exhausting day in the hunt field. They say the most important gait for a field hunter is the halt http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The older I get the more I appreciate the quiet push button ones http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jaegermonster]

You really should try it. It is alot of fun, the horses love it, it will make you more secure and your horse braver. But read up on the ettiquette of it, the rules are there for safety not just to be stody and they are the way they are for a reason. As long as everybody uses common sense and courtesty and take the time to learn before coming out it is really a blast.

[Red Hunter]

Majic Mushroom -

In my experience of training horses to foxhunt I definately suggest putting the red ribbon in your horse's tail. Make sure you bring a crop with you whenver you take her out in a group again. If she even thinks about kicking, you need to really hit her hard on the rump a few times. Also, avoid getting next to other riders. You need to ride in the back while you go through this training process because she most likely will try kicking again.

I agree with the other people who state that they do not want kickers in the hunt field. A horse that kicks should not be allowed to hunt -- there are enough dangers out hunting -- a horse that kicks repeatedly should be left at home. I got kicked in the knee a few years ago by a woman's horse that came cantering past me too close. Her mare kicked out trying to get my horse, and got me instead. Her horse had kicked a number of people before, so I complained to the Master about the situation and she was told that she could not ever hunt that horse again with the hunt.

[middy]

I whole heartedly agree with Frenie Fox on the kicking matter. Last season I found myself without a hunt horse (my old mare wasn't able to do first flight anymore and my baby was too young to ride) and I found myself borrowing horses to hunt. I have friends who I hunt with that have 5 horses so I always had a horse to ride but since I am a proficent (sp?) ride and have done some training in my day they loved to "let me ride" their young TB mare who was very nasty in the field. The first time was ok because we were a smaller group that day and noone besides her buddies got near her, but later I found out why I was riding her and why her owner wasn't. She was a really bad kicker and they thought she needed time to work out of it. Now I actually had her back 60 yards to kick someone and would try to kick anyone who passed her or who she was passing (even when we reversed the field) On our second outing I spent my whole day with my crop in the air and my spurs in her trying to curb her when I noticed her body posture changing. It wasn't a fun day and after that day I told them that I wasn't going to ride her anymore out in the field. That If I couldn't ride one of their other horses then I would just ride in second flight with my mare. I will NEVER have or be around a horse that kicks on the hunt field again.

Now on the other side I know that all horses kick on occasion and everyonce and a while on kicks but not one that kicks on a regular basis.