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View Full Version : Rollkur? What is this about?



coco21
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:03 PM
I've recently switched back to dressage from the hunters after many years so forgive my "cluelessness"... but what is Rollkur? Something about overbending the neck? Please explain this training practice to me? HOnestly it sounds like bad horsemanship to me but like I mentioned I've been gone a while.

meupatdoes
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:05 PM
Oh good Lord.

coco21
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:08 PM
oh no... have I just started a train wreck?

BaroquePony
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:11 PM
Anky on Bonfire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

I am sure that are others that know much more than I do about it :yes:

merrygoround
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:14 PM
Do a Search. There are so many wrecks, there is twisted steel all over the place.

Kami74
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:15 PM
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-&p=rolkur&type=

ThreeFigs
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:16 PM
Yes. Please do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

suzy
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:23 PM
Dittoing everyone else. There are PLENTY of threads about Rollkur, so go read through the old ones. I think it's safe to say that the rest of us have rollkur-fatigue. :/

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:23 PM
It is a polarized argument over a training method that seemingly has drawn more attention in the dressage world than the other fifty disciplines that use it :)

The worst possible footage of this method have been posted to show in slow motion, fast motion, and I hate Anky motion, to show how abusive the method is.

The argument spans from how long is it okay to use the method, to how deep, to what posture, and what time of day it is acceptable.

But boils down to extremes such as: All of competative dressage is abusive. All use of bits should be prohibited. All of Anky's horses are lame because of its use.

coco21
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:29 PM
Okay, so I'm diving in...
after being in the hunter/jumper world (and some of that time spent in Wellington) I can say with great certainty that just because someone has gained success in their field does not mean they have done so by being morally correct at all times. Sometimes the people we look up to are not always worthy of our respect. (and let the defense of these people begin...)
The little I have seen of this particular training method I can say it's not for me. The horse is horribly overbent. Is this the object? This is not the kind of dressage I remember from my younger days. I'm disappointed and sadden to see that this is even considered acceptable.
I do not prescribe to the theory that you can not make a horse do something it doesn't want to do or it won't do if it's in pain. Not true... horses have great hearts and souls and put up with a lot of crap from us stupid humans. The end does not justify the means.

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:39 PM
This shouldnt be new to you.

When I did hunter/jumpers I saw plenty of overbent animals, even in draw reins over fences, and horses bitted to their ass at 5 am for a 7 am class.

Yes. Even at the largest shows in America, although by then the horses have usually been bumped down long enough to know better :)

coco21
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:47 PM
This shouldnt be new to you.

When I did hunter/jumpers I saw plenty of overbent animals, even in draw reins over fences, and horses bitted to their ass at 5 am for a 7 am class.

Yes. Even at the largest shows in America, although by then the horses have usually been bumped down long enough to know better :)

Yes, I agree. i've seen this too. i just always held dressage riders at a higher level, I remember DQ's looking down their noses at anyone who considered using gadgets like martingales and draw reins to cut corners.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:49 PM
Most of us still look down our noses at "gadgets".

coco21
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:54 PM
Most of us still look down our noses at "gadgets".

I'm glad to hear it!

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:58 PM
Yes, I agree. i've seen this too. i just always held dressage riders at a higher level, I remember DQ's looking down their noses at anyone who considered using gadgets like martingales and draw reins to cut corners.

I would say that there is a puristic approach to riding in dressage that is very strong, but maybe that tends to bend too far the one way.

Rolkur videos show one extreme, and if you go to some of the schooling shows you can see the wealth of other extremes by people who claim to be the ideal.

I was never fully shocked by the deep methods because I've been in many disciplines that have far darker corners of their closets, even though its not admitted.

stoicfish
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:01 PM
Rollkur?
Isn't that a Scandinavian type fish that is cured and rolled up with a pickle in it?

Now why would a horse want to eat that! That is cruel!

Call PETA (Proliferation of Ethical Treats for Animals)

Bluey
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:13 PM
Ok, I don't know much about RK, but it seems to be one more technique to help the horse be flexible, overstretching it, so it can then be soft and pliable during a performance.

Similar to gymnasts, that do stretches, some of them hyperstretching, so they stay very loose and then perform better.

Does it work for the intended purpose?
Well, some have won at the top following that technique, although that was not but a small part of all they did to train their horses.

I guess it depends on how you want to train and what kind of horse you are training, if using some RK would be suitable for it.

Of course, some will overuse, even abuse any technique and maybe some do RK also, if they feel that is what may give them a better performing horse, people being people.

The little I know, it tells me that sure, it works, but the pitfalls for most that would try to use that are also large if they don't know what they are doing, like horses then learning one more evasion, not coming in front of your leg and breaking at the neck behind the third vertebrae and so losing a true connection from the back to your hand.
In a way, RK is like using drawreins improperly, without them, just by the action of your aids.

Fixerupper
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:22 PM
Rollkur?
Isn't that a Scandinavian type fish that is cured and rolled up with a pickle in it?


That's silly....
rolkur are sort of like corn dogs except they are bavarian and are made with bratwurst, potato pancakes and really really hot mustard...which is cruel.

Go Fish
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:40 PM
It is a polarized argument over a training method that seemingly has drawn more attention in the dressage world than the other fifty disciplines that use it :)

The worst possible footage of this method have been posted to show in slow motion, fast motion, and I hate Anky motion, to show how abusive the method is.

The argument spans from how long is it okay to use the method, to how deep, to what posture, and what time of day it is acceptable.

But boils down to extremes such as: All of competative dressage is abusive. All use of bits should be prohibited. All of Anky's horses are lame because of its use.

Thanks! :lol: I think that sums it up nicely!

stoicfish
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:05 PM
It is a polarized argument over a training method that seemingly has drawn more attention in the dressage world than the other fifty disciplines that use it :)

The worst possible footage of this method have been posted to show in slow motion, fast motion, and I hate Anky motion, to show how abusive the method is.

The argument spans from how long is it okay to use the method, to how deep, to what posture, and what time of day it is acceptable.

But boils down to extremes such as: All of competative dressage is abusive. All use of bits should be prohibited. All of Anky's horses are lame because of its use.

Not bad but it misses the part about the pickled fish.

Fixerupper, what you described sounds more like Schwung.
Or possible Losgelassenheit, which comes several hours after eating the hot, hot mustard.

suzy
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:27 PM
Close stoic, but your German needs a bit of beefing up. It's actually "losegassenahurry." But I applaud your efforts to explain nonetheless.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:46 PM
Sauerkraut does that to me, too.

Coreene
Sep. 23, 2010, 03:15 PM
Erwtensoep.

Bertus, proef de snert 'es
Is de kluif naar je zin, moet er peper in

coco21
Sep. 23, 2010, 03:52 PM
Well, I'm relieved to hear it is actually an exotic foreign dish of some sort... that's a relief!

stoicfish
Sep. 23, 2010, 04:01 PM
Coreene, why are you peeing in my soup? Thank goodness for the online translator or I might have been confused.

I think we should replace rollkur with fahrvergnügen. Then add some Jägermeister or Goldschlager depending on your horses breeding.

Coreene
Sep. 23, 2010, 07:03 PM
It's actually "Bertus, taste the pea soup, is the knuckle to your liking, is there any pepper in it?"

AKA no PP. :lol:

Fixerupper
Sep. 23, 2010, 08:17 PM
I think we should replace rollkur with fahrvergnügen.

umm ....I'm pretty sure that you have to withdraw on that at least 14 days before showing FEI!!! perhaps a little less for national shows..?


Then add some Jägermeister or Goldschlager depending on your horses breeding.

this on the other hand is stellar advice...

(though Goldschlager is a bit stiff.....
at almost $1300/oz.... )