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shamateur
Sep. 23, 2010, 11:54 AM
Some of you may remember my recent thread about Juniors and Amateurs teaching.

Semi-resolved:

Junior and I have talked about it, don't worry there were no harsh words between us. She does fully understand the rules now and is contemplating if she will go pro or stop teaching and go amateur. Glad we talked about it.

Amateur is still teaching lessons, Trainer will be back from vacation next week. I haven't done or said anything about this really. But there's plenty of evidence that she has advertised as a trainer and I could probably prove she was paid. Whatever, it's hopefully short term.

But...

There's a total of 5 official "Assistant Trainers" at the barn. I have recently discovered that TWO of these Ast. Trainers own and compete horses in Amateur divisions at USEF A shows. They advertise their training services through the barn emails, even has the barn listed as employer on facebook. Also see facebook updates about them showing in Amateur and equitation divisions. Their horses are boarded at a separate barn, so I guess they think no one will notice?

I'm not sure that I could really go through with turning them in, but what exactly is the process? I tried looking on the usef site and couldn't find it. There's an upcoming show at the facility where these girls teach, will be interesting to watch these "trainers" go show in the amateur divisions if they attend.

Thanatos
Sep. 23, 2010, 11:59 AM
Email USEF. There is a process; you have to pay a fee and if you win the protest, the fee is refunded. If you lose, it's forfeit. I had a similar situation with an ammy but after watching her show at one show in the 2'6" novice adults and barely get around, I decided her pony training and teaching really wasn't threatening and decided not to go forward.

However, this was 3 years ago; things may have changed since then.

shamateur
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:04 PM
The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.

Any idea how much the fee is?

HRF Second Chance
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:07 PM
The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.

Any idea how much the fee is?

If he's "green" and showing the pre or baby greens as I recall that's allowed.

shamateur
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:10 PM
If he's "green" and showing the pre or baby greens as I recall that's allowed.

Yes, I realize that. More power to her if she wants to show in those divisions. However, she has been showing in specifically Amateur restricted divisions.

Janet
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:12 PM
The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.

Any idea how much the fee is?
See chapter 6 of the USEF rules.

Especially GR603

GR603.1.d. accompanied by a deposit of $200 if made by a Federation member or the parent of
a junior exhibitor member or $300 if made by a non-member (if check, payable to the
competition or to the Federation); said deposit will be refunded in the event the protest
is upheld,

meupatdoes
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:39 PM
You could try taking a screen shot of the facebook page and a screen shot of her amateur status on the USEF search result, attaching them to an "oh, btw did you see...?" email, and seeing what USEF does.

I'm sure they would rather get $200 to have someone do this work for them, but maybe if you present them with screen shots and easy links they can actually put the math together themselves.

I can't imagine if somebody sent in the link with the advertising plus a screen shot of their listed ammy class results that USEF would just be like, "Oh we can't do anything unless somebody somewhere sends us $200." But it is USEF after all...

FineAlready
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:53 PM
You could try taking a screen shot of the facebook page and a screen shot of her amateur status on the USEF search result, attaching them to an "oh, btw did you see...?" email, and seeing what USEF does.

I'm sure they would rather get $200 to have someone do this work for them, but maybe if you present them with screen shots and easy links they can actually put the math together themselves.

I can't imagine if somebody sent in the link with the advertising plus a screen shot of their listed ammy class results that USEF would just be like, "Oh we can't do anything unless somebody somewhere sends us $200." But it is USEF after all...

I agree. I probably would not pay the fee unless I was really fired up about this (especially since it is likely $200 per reported person, so it could add up pretty quickly given how many "amateurs" seem to be flaunting the rules here...). I would, however, send the proof to USEF and let them know about it. If they don't do anything about it just because you didn't send the fee, well, that will be disappointing. And it would make me wonder why we even bother to have a governing body at all...to whom we pay fees...to govern just this sort of thing...

Thanatos
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:57 PM
The reason for the fee is, let's face it, our sport is not always known for sportsmanship and a lot of riders are catty, resentful and jealous. The fee is to keep Sally from reporting Suzie because Suzie beat her in the AO classic and Sally is mad about it. People will theoretically only report true rule breakers because they know they will get the money back if the protest is upheld. Can you imagine if we could all just report each other just because? Ugh, the drama!!!

Linny
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:57 PM
Save any emails you may have gotten promoting their instruction at Barn X. I don't know how to do it but if you can do a screen capture of the FB site advertising lessons etc, do it. (Saving the name of the page doesn't matter as soon as she changes it.) This update confirms my suspiscion that your barn is riddled with abuse of rules. Sorry to say it but it's true. It doesn't mean poor horsemanship but it does mean poor sportsmanship and questionable character.

FineAlready
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:21 PM
The reason for the fee is, let's face it, our sport is not always known for sportsmanship and a lot of riders are catty, resentful and jealous. The fee is to keep Sally from reporting Suzie because Suzie beat her in the AO classic and Sally is mad about it. People will theoretically only report true rule breakers because they know they will get the money back if the protest is upheld. Can you imagine if we could all just report each other just because? Ugh, the drama!!!

Yeah, I agree to some extent, and I'm sure it also costs them some money to pursue claims...but I'd still give it a shot first without paying the fee.

shamateur
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:28 PM
Alright, good idea. Can't hurt to send an email I suppose. I will forward them an email from head Trainer with all the assistant trainers' names, phone numbers, and email addresses. The email says contact them directly to schedule lessons. I'd say that qualifies as advertising. Will let you all know if I get a response.

STA
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:35 PM
The RULES are the RULES no matter if they threaten someone's business or not. Good rider - bad rider, good teacher - bad teacher, if you are receiving something in exchange you are not an amatuer. Interpret the words anyway you want - you know if you have to work that hard to fit into the catagory Play by the rules, think the rules are incorrect - work to change them, but don't ignore the RULES.

gottagrey
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:11 PM
Who is the barn manager/owner? I would maybe take a copy of the USEF Amateur Rule and a copy of the "amateur trainers" facebook page(s) where is says they train, emails where it says they train and have a heart to heart w/ Barn Manager and/or owner - or head trainer. I would also suggest that you check the USEF website (searches) for the Shamateur's membership info as that will show their membership status.

As far as schooling/inhouse shows go, really USEF has no authority over those shows so there's not much you can do.

It's also my understanding that in order to file a complaint against the amateur trainers you have might have also have had to compete against them..

You could also send collect all the information - their USEF membership status (showing they compete as amateurs), facebook/emails, and if you could look up any show records which shows they competed in Ammy classes at USEF competitions and send to the USEF membership department (look to see who the best contact would be on the website) w/o sending any money - and just enclose a note.

Janet
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:17 PM
It's also my understanding that in order to file a complaint against the amateur trainers you have might have also have had to compete against them.
Not true.


Any rider, driver, handler, vaulter, longeur, exhibitor, owner, agent, trainer or the parent
of a junior exhibitor, or any Life, Senior, or Junior member present at the competition may
file a protest...

ANY USEF member present at the show where the violation occured can file a protest.

shamateur
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:18 PM
The barn manager is Head Trainer. I feel quite confident that she's aware there are rules being broken here, she just doesn't care.

When I said there was a show at the facility where they teach soon- it is a USEF "A" show. So USEF does have authority there. Although, I'm not sure if they will be showing there.

Linny
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:44 PM
Gottagrey's post brings to mind a question.

Is there a sanction from the Federation applied to the EMPLOYER of a shamateur?

Janet
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:53 PM
Gottagrey's post brings to mind a question.

Is there a sanction from the Federation applied to the EMPLOYER of a shamateur?
No, but there is a sanction against the person that signs as "Trainer" on the entry blank.

hoopoe
Sep. 23, 2010, 07:02 PM
If you review the violations reporst from thelast year, particularly the first 4 months, you should see pelenty of examples of judgements handed out against shams and their employers/traners of record on the form.

Some do involve shams that had postings on the interwebs and flyers up at the show itself. talk about either

DUMB

or

EGOTISTICAL

danceronice
Sep. 23, 2010, 09:11 PM
The girls in question here are not barely making it around beginner courses. They are quite good riders and at least one has a horse that while green is going to turn out very fancy.


Doesn't matter if they're good or if they suck, if they have six-figure warmbloods or a broken-down Amish plowhorse, even under the super-relaxed rules I would personally like to see enacted, they are advertising themselves as trainers, working as trainers, and presumably being paid as trainers. They've de facto declared themselves to be Professionals and shouldn't be competing as Amateurs. It's about as clear-cut a case of 'shamateurs' as one could ask for.

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 24, 2010, 08:29 AM
You don't need proof that she has been paid. USEF has accepted advertisng as a trainer as sufficient proof of status. Business cards, email ad, ad on a website, farm lists person as trainer etc.

At the next show where the 'trainer' shows as an amateur ask to speak to the steward. Show him/her your documentation. It may not be necessary for you to put up the $200 as a protest. The show can file the charge as can the steward.

If you don't want to go that route then call USEF and explain the problem. Tell them the type of documentation you have in your possession. They will provide guidance.

theinstigator
Sep. 24, 2010, 09:05 AM
Gottagrey's post brings to mind a question.

Is there a sanction from the Federation applied to the EMPLOYER of a shamateur?

GR1307.7
The trainer may be subject to disciplinary action if an exhibitor who shows as an
amateur is protested, and that protest is sustained by the Hearing Committee, and it is
determined that the trainer had knowledge of their professional activities. (See GR1306 and GR1308.)

and

GR1308.4
An exhibitor who engages a person to ride, drive or show in halter in any amateur class and then remunerates such person above and beyond the extent to which such amateur is entitled as provided above in GR1306.2d. will be subject to disciplinary action under Chapter 7.

So, yes, the "trainer" could be subject to fines/suspensions as well.

ETA: Goodness, reading through USEF rulings is frightening!

ExJumper
Sep. 24, 2010, 09:19 AM
I'm confused about "proof." If someone protests, do they have to get the proof themselves? Or does USEF actually investigate it. And what constitutes as proof. Is word of mouth -- or simply hearing a trainer and a shamature talking about it -- enough? Because if you need canceled checks or financial records, that's not really something an every day citizen can get, right? Does USEF have the power to request these sorts of things?

Because quite frankly, if you need to have your own proof in order to protest, I'm amazed that ANYONE actually wins a protest.

KC and the Sunshine Band
Sep. 24, 2010, 09:32 AM
You guys all live in a fantasy world. Do you think anyone at USEF cares? No one cares.

Once upon a time when I was young and naive, I rode with a trainer who sat on some boards of some associations... I was paid to ride / hack horses. I was told that it wouldn't effect my ammy status, I'd be "covered." Right or wrong, I did it and was encouraged to do so by someone who helped make up and enforce these rules.

So many of the problems you guys endlessly complain about come directly from the very people in charge of it all.

Janet
Sep. 24, 2010, 10:14 AM
I'm confused about "proof." If someone protests, do they have to get the proof themselves? Yes, if you protest, you have to provide proof.

Or does USEF actually investigate it.

If the USEF (or a USEF official) files charges, based on information you provide, then the USEF will investigate.


And what constitutes as proof. Is word of mouth -- or simply hearing a trainer and a shamature talking about it -- enough?
No, that is not proof.


Because if you need canceled checks or financial records, that's not really something an every day citizen can get, right? Does USEF have the power to request these sorts of things?

Well, if YOU ever wrote a check to him/her that was clearly for non-amateur activities,then you would have proof.

But advertising is now considered clear evidence of non-amateur activities. So if you have an ad, a web site, and email, etc., that can be your proof.

No, the USEF does not have the power to demand financial records. There is a current rule change proposal to give tehm that power, but I don't think it will pass.


Because quite frankly, if you need to have your own proof in order to protest, I'm amazed that ANYONE actually wins a protest.
Well, plenty of people DO get set down for violating amateur rules. Just look at the results of the hearing committee
https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/rulebook/HearingCommittee.aspx

Jumphigh83
Sep. 24, 2010, 10:15 AM
The RULES are the RULES no matter if they threaten someone's business or not. Good rider - bad rider, good teacher - bad teacher, if you are receiving something in exchange you are not an amatuer. Interpret the words anyway you want - you know if you have to work that hard to fit into the catagory Play by the rules, think the rules are incorrect - work to change them, but don't ignore the RULES.

THIS!

HRF Second Chance
Sep. 24, 2010, 11:09 AM
I only read through July but they got down on it for this exact thing that month! Wow!!!

It seems the big thing is you lose your ammy status for the year. Obviously forcing them to either put up or shut up about being a professional.

Janet
Sep. 24, 2010, 11:16 AM
April 09 is worth looking at too.

HRF Second Chance
Sep. 24, 2010, 11:44 AM
April 09 is worth looking at too.

Classic!!! Anyone can figure out who the trainer was! I think the trainer should be punished accorindgly, which it seems was almost a slap on the wrist. Way to make a bunch of $ off the kiddos in your barn. In my experience, they always tell them how "good it looks" for them to ride other people's horses and how they can "make a few bucks".

Since I'm unclear on the process on how to regain your ammy status, is it challenging?

I'm not a USEF member, nor do I show at a level where anyone would care if I was ammy or not, but I did work as an instructor for 2 years and now have been gone for right at a year. I have only recently started showing but stayed away from the equitations since I know I'm not allowed. But now my year is up!

Seal Harbor
Sep. 24, 2010, 11:49 AM
To get Amateur status back, send a letter to the USEF along with $50 and two USEF members need to send notarized letters that the applicant has not engaged in activities that would make them a professional for one year.

I think the letter the member sends to request Amateur status must also be notarized.

Tex Mex
Sep. 24, 2010, 07:09 PM
I recently went through this so here are a couple things I wish I had known-

Anything you send to USEF, including this initial email, will be copied and sent to the accused party. It is NOT anonymous. You will be required to copy them on ALL evidence you submit.

You will be responsible for seeing this through- from the first contact, to a hearing at the end of the year if it goes that far. It's stressful. If it does go to hearing, you are expected to attend. In Kentucky. You will have to swear in, and argue your case to a panel, and the accused will be there as well. It is run similarly to a court case.

As for the way to handle it now- The protest must be filed in connection with a horse show where the amateur violation was committed. I believe there's a 10 business day window. So the best thing to do is to start collecting all the info you have- facebook stuff (print it out), emails, etc. Then wait until they horse show, and go talk to the steward (they probably won't be of much help, but the hearing committee asked me if I had talked to the steward and I was glad that I had). After the horse show, submit the protest form, your check, and all your printed out information to the appropriate USEF person. They will contact you with how to proceed. Just know that all of that evidence will be sent on the accused party and then the war begins.

If you want to remain friends with this person, or anyone else in your barn, just keep all of this in mind. Hope all this helps. PM me if you want any more info about my experience.

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 24, 2010, 09:22 PM
I recently went through this so here are a couple things I wish I had known-

Anything you send to USEF, including this initial email, will be copied and sent to the accused party. It is NOT anonymous. You will be required to copy them on ALL evidence you submit.

You will be responsible for seeing this through- from the first contact, to a hearing at the end of the year if it goes that far. It's stressful. If it does go to hearing, you are expected to attend. In Kentucky. You will have to swear in, and argue your case to a panel, and the accused will be there as well. It is run similarly to a court case.

As for the way to handle it now- The protest must be filed in connection with a horse show where the amateur violation was committed. I believe there's a 10 business day window. So the best thing to do is to start collecting all the info you have- facebook stuff (print it out), emails, etc. Then wait until they horse show, and go talk to the steward (they probably won't be of much help, but the hearing committee asked me if I had talked to the steward and I was glad that I had). After the horse show, submit the protest form, your check, and all your printed out information to the appropriate USEF person. They will contact you with how to proceed. Just know that all of that evidence will be sent on the accused party and then the war begins.

If you want to remain friends with this person, or anyone else in your barn, just keep all of this in mind. Hope all this helps. PM me if you want any more info about my experience.

As I pointed out earlier if you have documentation the steward or the show may file the charges for you.

In fact the last two situations I know of were handled this way. In one case the shamateur didn't want to go through the hearing so she simply declared Pro status. End of story.

The second case went a little further and resulted in a fine and a short suspension plus a change of status to pro. The person who supplied the info to the steward did not have to appear at the hearing although all documentation was of course provided to the person accused.

But did you not expect that the person you accused is entitled to know what the accusations are?

jse
Sep. 25, 2010, 10:19 PM
I recently went through this so here are a couple things I wish I had known-

Anything you send to USEF, including this initial email, will be copied and sent to the accused party. It is NOT anonymous. You will be required to copy them on ALL evidence you submit.

You will be responsible for seeing this through- from the first contact, to a hearing at the end of the year if it goes that far. It's stressful. If it does go to hearing, you are expected to attend. In Kentucky. You will have to swear in, and argue your case to a panel, and the accused will be there as well. It is run similarly to a court case.

As for the way to handle it now- The protest must be filed in connection with a horse show where the amateur violation was committed. I believe there's a 10 business day window. So the best thing to do is to start collecting all the info you have- facebook stuff (print it out), emails, etc. Then wait until they horse show, and go talk to the steward (they probably won't be of much help, but the hearing committee asked me if I had talked to the steward and I was glad that I had). After the horse show, submit the protest form, your check, and all your printed out information to the appropriate USEF person. They will contact you with how to proceed. Just know that all of that evidence will be sent on the accused party and then the war begins.

If you want to remain friends with this person, or anyone else in your barn, just keep all of this in mind. Hope all this helps. PM me if you want any more info about my experience.

Maybe this happens different for others but I have had friends who were accused of not being ammy's and no one ever knew who reported them....so maybe sometimes it's anon and sometimes not?

Tex Mex
Sep. 25, 2010, 11:22 PM
I was just sharing my experience, thought it might be helpful. PineTree, no need to make assumptions about it. I definitely thought that information would be shared with the accused, but I was surprised that every single item from my first contact, every email to USEF, etc was required to be cc'd to them. It wasn't an issue for me, just something I hadn't known prior to going through this. I thought the OP might find it helpful, that's all. It may make her more conscious of how she words her initial email.

As for filing a protest anonymously, it IS possible, but I was told by USEF that if I didn't put my name down, they may or may not pursue it, and they wouldn't be able to share any info with me about the case after the initial contact was made. In my case, I didnt want to do it half-way, I wanted to see it through to the end, otherwise it felt like a waste of money and
time.

Also, the steward in my situation was not very helpful. This may not be the case for others. I showed her my printed out "evidence" and she just suggested I call the USEF on the Monday after the show. I do think that in some cases, if the steward does talk to the accused then they may just switch to pro immediately to avoid the hassle.

rivenoak
Sep. 26, 2010, 10:13 AM
April 09 is worth looking at too.

I read all 3 years worth of rulings. Some really knocked me out at what people will do and some, why was I not surprised to see the particular names and infractions? :eek:

shamateur
Sep. 26, 2010, 12:13 PM
Sounds like quite a headached Tex Mex. Would be so much easier if everyone just followed the rules...

barnbum81
Sep. 26, 2010, 08:48 PM
Sounds like quite a headached Tex Mex. Would be so much easier if everyone just followed the rules...

Sounds like USEF doesn't really want to deal with it so they make the process quite difficult, to deter people from filing complaints. $.02

HRF Second Chance
Sep. 26, 2010, 08:50 PM
Sounds like USEF doesn't really want to deal with it so they make the process quite difficult, to deter people from filing complaints. $.02

I'd say its so that people aren't just crying to the USEF every time they feel there's an infraction and keeping it to strictly the facts. People are less likely to follow a complaint through if they have to put forth not only an effort but money as well.

Janet
Sep. 26, 2010, 10:02 PM
Sounds like USEF doesn't really want to deal with it so they make the process quite difficult, to deter people from filing complaints. $.02
On the contrary. They want to avoid complaints based on hearsay, which are a waste of everybody's time.

They want to deter people from filing frivolous compalints.

Gry2Yng
Sep. 26, 2010, 10:33 PM
IMHO, their attempt to avoid frivolity results in most shams knowing they will never be protested. Quite frankly, if it involved horse abuse, I'd take it to the limit, but I am not spending more than 10 minutes of my time or pocket change to out a pro riding as an ammy thru the process the USEF requires. I should be able to hand the steward the advertisements and let the federation take it from there.

Jumphigh83
Sep. 27, 2010, 08:41 AM
We should just list the many many spouses of trainers and other scam artists who cheat the system on a regular basis. Sad. It would take the Federation months to adjudicate the whole mess. :no::(

shamateur
Sep. 27, 2010, 10:09 AM
Response from USEF:


Dear Member:

Your below email was sent to our address for clarifications regarding amateur/professional status, amateurinquiry@usef.org. Thank you for your email.

If you feel that someone is in violation of Federation rules, then the best option is to file a protest against the individual. The rules for filing a protest can be found in the USEF Rulebook in Chapter 6, GR603 (for your convenience I have copied and pasted the rule at the bottom of my email). I have also attached an Official Protest Form to this email for your review. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding this form or the above rules. If you believe that this violation has been going on for a while and you know that it is still happening, you may be able to file the Protest outside of a competition; however, it would need to be done as soon as possible as the rule states you should file it within 10 business days of the competition or from when the violation occurred. Please note that with a Protest you do have full interaction with the matter and will be the submitting evidence to the Federation and copying the other party (the respondent/accused).

If you are unable to file a protest regarding one’s amateur status or wish to file a complaint anonymously, you may submit all evidence to the Federation and we will look into the matter. We will take only the evidence submitted and not attach names or contact information to the file. However, without an eye witness willing to come forward and assist the Federation it can be difficult to find someone in violation; therefore, it is crucial that the evidence you submit is sufficient for the Federation to follow up on. Please be advised if you file an anonymous complaint, you will not be kept informed of the status or outcome of the file. The information can be sent to amateurinquiry@usef.org or mailed to the Regulation Department at 4047 Iron Works Parkway, Lexington, KY 40511. If the email you included below is the only evidence you have then we will take this information and see if this is sufficient proof of a violation for us to proceed forward.

For your reference, the rules pertaining to amateur and professional status are prescribed in Chapter 13, GR1306-GR1308 and are available online at http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2010/GeneralRules/Chapter13.pdf.

The rules regarding Protests and the Hearing Process are available in Chapter 6 at http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2010/GeneralRules/Chapter6.pdf.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.


GR603 Protests.
1. Any rider, driver, handler, vaulter, longeur, exhibitor, owner, agent, trainer or the parent of a junior exhibitor, or any Life, Senior, or Junior member present at the competition may file a protest with the Show Committee of a Licensed Competition or The Federation Hearing Committee alleging violation of any Federation rule(s). The protest must contain all information as specified in GR602.1 and must be:
a. in writing,
b. signed by the protester,
c. addressed to the Show Committee of the competition at which the alleged violation occurred, or to the Hearing Committee,
d. accompanied by a deposit of $200 if made by a Federation member or the parent of a junior exhibitor member or $300 if made by a non-member (if check, payable to the competition or to the Federation); said deposit will be refunded in the event the protest is upheld, and
e. received by the steward, technical delegate, a member of the Show Committee, the competition manager or the competition secretary within 48 hours of the alleged violation. If made directly to the Hearing Committee, the protest must be received at the Federation office by the tenth business day following the last recognized day of the competition, or by the tenth business day following the date on which the alleged violation occurred if it occurred other than at a Licensed Competition.



So yes, you can remain anonymous but that complicates matters.

And it seems best to make the protest at a competition where the shamateurs in question are competing in Amateur restricted divisions.

Letting the show steward know as some of you suggested on here sounds like a good idea.

Time will tell.

dauntless
Sep. 28, 2010, 09:44 AM
I know that this is an unpopular position, but I know of someone who teaches two up-down lessons on the weekends. She is not the greatest rider. She shows as an ammy. She definitely rides like an ammy. I certainly would not consider her a pro because she's teaching two little ones to post. I think a lot of this stuff needs to be taken in context.

Trixie
Sep. 28, 2010, 09:52 AM
I know that this is an unpopular position, but I know of someone who teaches two up-down lessons on the weekends. She is not the greatest rider. She shows as an ammy. She definitely rides like an ammy. I certainly would not consider her a pro because she's teaching two little ones to post. I think a lot of this stuff needs to be taken in context.

YOU may not, but the rules DO consider her a pro. The very first line of the amateur rules is "regardless of one's skills or accomplishments."

hoopoe
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:02 AM
"ride like an ammy"

wow what an insult

There are many ammys who can ride rings around pros. Ammy does not = poor rider

As a dressage rider I would say it is sometimes easier to beat a pro than an ammy. Particularly when they have a lot of $$$ to spend on quality animals and many pros don't.

dauntless
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:07 AM
I do understand that the counter argument to the one I presented is that - the rules are clear. And I meant no insult to amateurs everywhere. That being said, I can't imagine someone going to all the trouble of going to a hearing, publicly outing etc etc in a situation like this. What would be the upside? In a case like the one I presented, I really think it's a victimless crime. I understand that that is a slippery slope argument, though.

Pennywell Bay
Sep. 28, 2010, 10:53 AM
[QUOTE=hoopoe;5124662]"ride like an ammy"

wow what an insult QUOTE]

Yeah, but I think she meant the population of Ammy's who kick, close eyes, grab manes and go ( I hold my breath in addition- ha ha). :lol: Not implying ammys as an entity stink....

Trixie
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:15 PM
I do understand that the counter argument to the one I presented is that - the rules are clear. And I meant no insult to amateurs everywhere. That being said, I can't imagine someone going to all the trouble of going to a hearing, publicly outing etc etc in a situation like this. What would be the upside? In a case like the one I presented, I really think it's a victimless crime. I understand that that is a slippery slope argument, though.

Probably not. But the policy wasn't set up to screw people like your friend. It was set up to prevent people who make money giving lessons from competing as amateurs. The rules are convoluted because people kept finding loopholes, so it winds up as "you accept money = professional."

dauntless
Sep. 28, 2010, 03:43 PM
Probably not. But the policy wasn't set up to screw people like your friend. It was set up to prevent people who make money giving lessons from competing as amateurs. The rules are convoluted because people kept finding loopholes, so it winds up as "you accept money = professional."

That does make sense. The rules were taken advantage of, and thats why they are so draconian.

There's a girl in my area who publicly coaches at schooling shows, its common knowledge that she coaches at the farm, and cleans up in the A/As at the rated shows. She comes from a big barn, pretty well connected, farm owner (her employer) is well connected w/ horse show organizers - so I think that's why she gets away with it. I can see why people would definitely be p/o'd in this situation!

MyGiantPony
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:17 PM
On the contrary. They want to avoid complaints based on hearsay, which are a waste of everybody's time.

They want to deter people from filing frivolous compalints.

Honestly? I wouldn't file a complaint knowing I'd have to take time off work to travel to KY for a hearing, on my own dime.

Not even if I had the person dead to rights.

Trixie
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:20 PM
That does make sense. The rules were taken advantage of, and thats why they are so draconian.

There's a girl in my area who publicly coaches at schooling shows, its common knowledge that she coaches at the farm, and cleans up in the A/As at the rated shows. She comes from a big barn, pretty well connected, farm owner (her employer) is well connected w/ horse show organizers - so I think that's why she gets away with it. I can see why people would definitely be p/o'd in this situation!

Exactly.

It's the people like your friend that get screwed by the rule, but each piece of the rule was basically created because someone cheated. It's unfortunate.

bornfreenowexpensive
Sep. 28, 2010, 04:26 PM
That does make sense. The rules were taken advantage of, and thats why they are so draconian.

There's a girl in my area who publicly coaches at schooling shows, its common knowledge that she coaches at the farm, and cleans up in the A/As at the rated shows. She comes from a big barn, pretty well connected, farm owner (her employer) is well connected w/ horse show organizers - so I think that's why she gets away with it. I can see why people would definitely be p/o'd in this situation!


Although people are not always as they seem. I've coached a few young riders at events and taught a few lessons...walked a few courses with people. Friends--kids of friends. Hell...I've even walked courses for students of Pros who couldn't attend. I bet to someone on the outside I looked like a Pro. But I wasn't paid...and wouldn't let them pay me. I did it because they were friends....and I had the time and I like helping.

So not everyone is a pro just because the may be coaching or teaching.

shamateur
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:00 PM
True, not everyone is a pro just because they look it.

But these girls ARE pro's by USEF's definition. One of them is entering the Adult Amateur division at a show next weekend. Considering the show is AT the facility where she is a TRAINER I'm not really sure how she thinks she's going to get away with that. :confused:

Gry2Yng
Sep. 28, 2010, 08:30 PM
"ride like an ammy"

wow what an insult

There are many ammys who can ride rings around pros. Ammy does not = poor rider

As a dressage rider I would say it is sometimes easier to beat a pro than an ammy. Particularly when they have a lot of $$$ to spend on quality animals and many pros don't.

Oh hoopoe, lighten up. We all know what she meant. It is a lot easier to have a discussion on these BB if we don't take offense to an innocent comment. I get what you are saying and why you are offended, but I also understood what dauntless meant.

hunterjumpers
Oct. 12, 2010, 10:49 AM
Shamateur -

Just wondering how things went at the show? I think my friend was at this show and heard of at least one adult who teaches and was also showing as an ammy.

shamateur
Oct. 12, 2010, 11:13 AM
The girl who is a regular trainer scratched from the show on Friday because word spread that she wasn't eligible to compete. As far as I know the steward was not involved and no action through USEF taken against her but she was informed by someone that she should NOT show or else action would be taken. She also appears to have scratched the next show on her schedule. Feel free to PM me who the adult was that showed as an ammy.