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Claudius
Sep. 22, 2010, 06:34 PM
Last week I watched the tb division at Md. Horse and Pony Show. I noticed that there were a fair number of horses whose connections were doing their best to make them Look like WBs.....over flexed, and ofcourse, the HUGE incongruous fake tail. Will this be the future of this growing division?? I wish there could be some stated criteria for the TB division, so that they retain their identity. How about NO Fake Tails for our Tbs??
I think it is a wonderful division to help in the rescue efforts for OTTBs..and it provides a unique showing opportunity for the financially less advantaged......I just hope the contest does not become, "Let's see how much we can make a TB look like a WB!!"

snaffle635
Sep. 22, 2010, 06:55 PM
Last week I watched the tb division at Md. Horse and Pony Show. I noticed that there were a fair number of horses whose connections were doing their best to make them Look like WBs.....over flexed, and ofcourse, the HUGE incongruous fake tail. Will this be the future of this growing division?? I wish there could be some stated criteria for the TB division, so that they retain their identity. How about NO Fake Tails for our Tbs??
I think it is a wonderful division to help in the rescue efforts for OTTBs..and it provides a unique showing opportunity for the financially less advantaged......I just hope the contest does not become, "Let's see how much we can make a TB look like a WB!!"

Sorry, but what do you mean by 'connections'?

KBEquine
Sep. 22, 2010, 06:58 PM
I'd like to see it be a "tattoo" division, i.e., the TB was tattoo'd (as opposed to the rider) & had at least the race training, except that it wouldn't help the TBs who didn't even make it far enough in training to get tattoo'd & ON the track, much less become OTTBs.

Then again, I'm old enough to remember when EVERYONE rode TBs in hunter divisions & we all were in awe of the first warmblood hunter in the barn . . . after all, they were only for dressage back then.

I also remember when the TB classes were the tough ones in the hunter breeding division & people considered themselves lucky if their TB had washed out at the track, before getting tattoo'd. They'd lose the JC papers & enter them in the non-TB division (because back then, everyone was trying to make their QH & App & Paint & Warmblood look like a TB).

snaffle635
Sep. 22, 2010, 07:01 PM
I'd like to see it be a "tattoo" division, i.e., the TB was tattoo'd (as opposed to the rider)

LOL!

CBoylen
Sep. 22, 2010, 07:01 PM
Separating the TBs into their own division is dumbing it down enough already. It reinforces the idea that they can't compete with the WBs in the regular divisions. If you have a nice TB, it shouldn't look noticeably different from the rest of the horses at the show, and you should show it proudly in whatever division for which it's best suited. If it's a good horse, it will still win. Bad overflexed riding and bad fake tails are inappropriate, whatever the breed, but I don't think you can make rules that enforce good taste ;).

pinkme
Sep. 22, 2010, 07:05 PM
What is wrong with TBs with nice tails, and of good flesh?
My OTTB turned into a chubby guy once he compleated the let down period and was given quality grain.

I do like the idea of a tattooed TB division. It grates my nerves when people talk about their "OTTB" and how they retrained it or "rescued" it when it never set foot on a track to begin with. And no, you did not recue it, you gave it a new home and career path.. but that is a whole other topic.

keepthelegend
Sep. 22, 2010, 07:18 PM
I am so old I remember showing my warmblood in the "non thoroughbred" hunters! Funny how times change. With such a huge surplus of athletic TBs produced in America and so cheap to acquire it's such a shame they are out of fashion.

BeastieSlave
Sep. 22, 2010, 07:23 PM
I've got one of those TB's who trained, but didn't race and never got a tattoo. It's been suggested to me (by more than one person) that he should be marketed as an unpapered WB or an appendix :(

RockinHorse
Sep. 22, 2010, 07:33 PM
I have an OTTB who looks a lot like a WB without me trying to make him that way. I have actually shown people his tattoo since they did not believe he is a TB.

Of course I also have an OTTB who, based on looks, has never been mistaken for anything else ;)

Both of them are good horses and have been judged fairly when they show.

mestel
Sep. 22, 2010, 08:40 PM
My little TB won the inaugural TB Invitational Classic at MD Horse and Pony last year and you'll be happy to hear that his borrowed fake tail fell off in the schooling ring, much to his satisfaction! :D

Also - he's very very much a TB for TB's sakes. The only other thing he may look like is a fancy large pony.

fourfillies
Sep. 22, 2010, 08:43 PM
What about those TBs bred as hunters by folks (like me) who love TBs as athletes (often with skimpy tails)? There aren't many out there but those that are shouldn't be barred from the TB division for lack of a tattoo and a compelling backstory.

SquishTheBunny
Sep. 22, 2010, 09:10 PM
Pathetic.... My TB doesnt even look like a TB without his fake tail.
With it in, he could "almost" pass as a thoroughbred LOL. To me, he looks like a giant brown potato, and if you look closely you can see a few hairs growing off his dock. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2387659600081786972rEqKnj Pathetic isnt it?

As for a frame, well my TB's and WB's work on the bit. I dont know how that is breed related?

I compete in the adult amateurs with one of the TB's, among 75+ WB's and 3 other TB's. One TB is build like a WB, the others are pretty standard OTTB types, but happen to all be in the top 25 :)

Three times a year, there is a Thoroughbred Classic at the A shows. Any TB (sporthorse or racehorse) is allowed to enter. Its amazing the differences in build! There's some giant 17hh+ thick bodied horses, and some 15.2hh smaller ones. All seem to do really well in their respective divisions however!

Catherine Cullen
Sep. 22, 2010, 09:39 PM
Haha, I just bought a fake tail on ebay on a whim for my TB, and she doesn't even do anything yet. Who knew there might be bystanders inexplicably hostile to them?

If she makes it to be a show horse, please don't come around our stalls in the middle of the night and steal it from the tack room. TIA.

Go Fish
Sep. 22, 2010, 10:18 PM
Growing division? They hardly fill around here and many shows don't offer the TB division anymore.

Agree with CBoylen...it IS dumbing down. If you're a true advocate for the TB hunter, then they should be able to compete across the board against the entire cast of characters.

lys.
Sep. 22, 2010, 11:08 PM
Pathetic.... My TB doesnt even look like a TB without his fake tail.
With it in, he could "almost" pass as a thoroughbred LOL. To me, he looks like a giant brown potato, and if you look closely you can see a few hairs growing off his dock. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2387659600081786972rEqKnj Pathetic isnt it?

As for a frame, well my TB's and WB's work on the bit. I dont know how that is breed related?

I compete in the adult amateurs with one of the TB's, among 75+ WB's and 3 other TB's. One TB is build like a WB, the others are pretty standard OTTB types, but happen to all be in the top 25 :)

Three times a year, there is a Thoroughbred Classic at the A shows. Any TB (sporthorse or racehorse) is allowed to enter. Its amazing the differences in build! There's some giant 17hh+ thick bodied horses, and some 15.2hh smaller ones. All seem to do really well in their respective divisions however!

"giant brown potato." love it.

but really, he's cute!

Claudius
Sep. 22, 2010, 11:18 PM
CBoylen, I don't think of it as "dumbing down". I think of it as a way to help the tb to reenter the show ring. The criteria has changed so much from the time the tb was the norm that their division gives them a chance to reestablish their "look" . Thirty / Forty years ago when Hunters were Tbs. there were all sizes and weights and types and they went with their own tails, long , short, fluffy, skinny. Todays warmbloods are yesterdays "Heavy Weight Hunters"......a class offered in the working division, along with the "Corinthian " class, and many years before, the "Scurry" class.

As far as the tails, when one "fools " me, I appreciate the expertise . But most are so obvious, and annoying to the horse , getting tangled between their legs, not following the natural use of the tail.if the tail has not been deadened )o:...when I watch those horses I wonder , "If I can see it, and see that the horse objects to it, WHAT IS THE POINT??" Why has it become necessary for them all to look as much alike as possible? It did not use to be this way. Things change, not always for the best IMHO.

Wanderluster
Sep. 22, 2010, 11:19 PM
So funny you mention the fakes, a long past student stopped by to watch a regional medal final . She remarked that the tails ( in medal horses ) were so full and beautiful. I told her that many were fake and she posted on her fb page about going to a horse show where the horses were wearing extensions. LOL
I really like the TB division and I like seeing really great moving, great jumping horses. It doesn't bother me at all if they need a little help in the hair department to enhance the overall picture.

judybigredpony
Sep. 23, 2010, 09:39 AM
:mad:
I think it is a wonderful division to help in the rescue efforts for OTTBs..and it provides a unique showing opportunity for the financially less advantaged......!!"

This is perhaps one of the nastiest slap in the face comments anyone has ever made regarding buying OTTB...I will be sure to let my clients coming in from Chicago in 2 weeks to pick up their 5th OTTB know they are financially disadvanteged, and hope they aren't eating cat food so they can take their TB's to WEF this winter...............

mrsbradbury
Sep. 23, 2010, 09:49 AM
Yikes, that was a nasty comment Claudius. Some people don't care for a kick-along WB. We have a barn full of both, chosen to suit a particular rider.
I too remember the days of non-TB hunter, and the coin has simply flipped. A good hunter is a good hunter, and BTW I feel that the really fancy WB hunters, have quite a bit of blood in them.;)
As far as tatoo division, I think it should be limited to riders, unless we will have a branded division too.
I am not a fan of fake tails, and I try not to let other people's grooming choices get my panties in a wad. I am a fan of the light colored hunt coat.
Ride on, and have fun. That is why we show, and I think it's cool when shows offer "specialty classes" it changes the pace from the usual hunter division and the point chase.

ponymom64
Sep. 23, 2010, 09:50 AM
I actually like the idea of Throroughbred classes and wish that they would offer some in our area, if shows are still offering the Non TB classes, then why not? I don't necessarily see doing them *instead* of our regular division but as a nice little showcase class, same that you would use the Non TB classes for....

Our little Nicks goes in a little frame, not overflexed by any stretch of the imagination and needs a bit of a fake tail, so he wears one. Not sure why that is a bad thing as long as it is appropriate. Hunters have a certain style these days and like it or not, that's what the judges are looking for and as Chanda said, a nice horse is a nice horse, TB or not.

sar2008
Sep. 23, 2010, 09:54 AM
I think it is a wonderful division to help in the rescue efforts for OTTBs..and it provides a unique showing opportunity for the financially less advantaged......

Um yeah. So I have to agree with JBRP on this one....thats just ugly and a major ASSumption of all OTTB owners....

loshad
Sep. 23, 2010, 09:56 AM
Suspect now that OP just not expressing herself very well.

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 23, 2010, 10:12 AM
Last week I watched the tb division at Md. Horse and Pony Show. I noticed that there were a fair number of horses whose connections were doing their best to make them Look like WBs.....over flexed, and ofcourse, the HUGE incongruous fake tail. Will this be the future of this growing division?? I wish there could be some stated criteria for the TB division, so that they retain their identity. How about NO Fake Tails for our Tbs??
I think it is a wonderful division to help in the rescue efforts for OTTBs..and it provides a unique showing opportunity for the financially less advantaged......I just hope the contest does not become, "Let's see how much we can make a TB look like a WB!!"

This is hardly a growing division. In many areas you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handfull of TB's at a show.
About looking like a WB: Are you saying that most WB's use bad fake tails and are overbent?

Buying a TB off the track is not a rescue. You simply bought a horse.

It probably will come as a surprise to you but there are still breeders of TB's who breed for the show ring, not the track. And there are trainers who go to the TB sales to pick up yearlings that don't have a fancy pedigree for racing but do have a great pedigree for showing.

If the horse can do the job they will win regardless if they are a TB or a WB.

Just because someone is smart enough to get a good prospect at a reasonable price doesn't mean they are 'financially challenged' LOL.

Trixie
Sep. 23, 2010, 10:21 AM
Oh man, we have a FREE TB! :lol: Does that make us practically on welfare?

And he's built like a WB, too... but we didn't try to build him like that, he just came like that.

keepthelegend
Sep. 23, 2010, 10:44 AM
Um yeah. So I have to agree with JBRP on this one....thats just ugly and a major ASSumption of all OTTB owners....

I don't think it was meant to be assumption of all TB owners. But it's true that buying an TB off the track is a lot cheaper than buying a warmblood prospect. Also, the Thoroughbred hunter being a non A rated division will be cheaper to enter. So it is a nice option for people who can't afford to spend as much money purchasing or showing their horse. I think that's all the poster was trying to say!

Sonoma City
Sep. 23, 2010, 11:11 AM
Separating the TBs into their own division is dumbing it down enough already. It reinforces the idea that they can't compete with the WBs in the regular divisions. If you have a nice TB, it shouldn't look noticeably different from the rest of the horses at the show, and you should show it proudly in whatever division for which it's best suited. If it's a good horse, it will still win. Bad overflexed riding and bad fake tails are inappropriate, whatever the breed, but I don't think you can make rules that enforce good taste ;).

Based on the horses that are winning in the TB hunter division, do these horses place well in the other divisions without breed limitations?

danceronice
Sep. 23, 2010, 11:43 AM
I don't think it was meant to be assumption of all TB owners. But it's true that buying an TB off the track is a lot cheaper than buying a warmblood prospect.

Just because you HAVE the money does not mean you HAVE to spend it. I can afford a lot of things I don't buy simply because it's stupid to spend money on them.

And how about no fake tails, full stop? I hate to tell you this, but WB or TB, even the good ones look fake, and the cheap ones look like a bad weave or like one of those poor QHs whose tail was blocked. (Though in honesty the worst one ever was on a human! There's a Latin pro in the NE who, along with her parter, has dubious costume taste, and last year her hair extensions looked EXACTLY like one of the cheap fake tails! Seriously, I'd swear she was shopping Dover's last-chance clearance rack. It's not a great look on a human, either.)

And I'll take fine-built over flabby if that's how the horse is naturally built. Muscled isn't a problem, but even when he was race-fit and solid muscle from end to end (seriously, you could bounce a quarter off those hindquarters when he arrived), Lucky would never fool anyone into thinking he was a great big warmblood. OTOH there are horses on the FL listings who could pass for WB or QH right now--just how they're built. I kind of wish the US hunters were like the UK, with weight divisions for different types, rather than a huge variety of height divisions and one overall "correct" look that's basically Heavy Hunters.

hntrjmprpro45
Sep. 23, 2010, 11:55 AM
Also, some of the nicer TBs actually don't show in the TB division because they are busy cleaning up in the regular divisions. If you have a horse capable of winning/doing well in either division, you will typically go with the more notable division with the higher prize money (even if it does cost a bit more to enter).

I really like that they have a TB division, although it is sometimes (or often) not well attended. Another way they could support TBs is by offering incentive money (like $500 to the overall highest placed TB or to the TB with the highest score over fences). Then you would be encouraging the TBs to compete against the other breeds AND still offer owners incentives for owning a TB.

BravAddict
Sep. 23, 2010, 11:59 AM
Which horse shows do offer divisions for Thoroughbreds?

ponymom64
Sep. 23, 2010, 11:59 AM
Also, some of the nicer TBs actually don't show in the TB division because they are busy cleaning up in the regular divisions. If you have a horse capable of winning/doing well in either division, you will typically go with the more notable division with the higher prize money (even if it does cost a bit more to enter).

I really like that they have a TB division, although it is sometimes (or often) not well attended. Another way they could support TBs is by offering incentive money (like $500 to the overall highest placed TB or to the TB with the highest score over fences). Then you would be encouraging the TBs to compete against the other breeds AND still offer owners incentives for owning a TB.

That's a great idea! It would be nice to find a sponsor that would put up the prize money and/or sponsor a trophy or cooler.

hntrjmprpro45
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:03 PM
That's a great idea!

I wish I could take credit for coming up with it but they do this with other breeds at some shows. I know at pony finals there is usually a special Welsh pony award for the best/highest placing registered Welsh. Also, its fairly common at dressage shows to offer special prizes for the different warmbloods (KWPN, ISR/Old, etc) with the highest test score.

hntrjmprpro45
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:06 PM
Which horse shows do offer divisions for Thoroughbreds?

They are usually out on the east coast. Upperville and Capitol Challenge (they offer a TB/TB cross division in their future hunters) come to my mind but there are others as well.

IrishWillow
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:13 PM
Separating the TBs into their own division is dumbing it down enough already. It reinforces the idea that they can't compete with the WBs in the regular divisions. If you have a nice TB, it shouldn't look noticeably different from the rest of the horses at the show, and you should show it proudly in whatever division for which it's best suited. If it's a good horse, it will still win. Bad overflexed riding and bad fake tails are inappropriate, whatever the breed, but I don't think you can make rules that enforce good taste ;).

Totally agree. Very affirmative action.

bazinga
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:26 PM
I think it is a wonderful division to help in the rescue efforts for OTTBs..and it provides a unique showing opportunity for the financially less advantaged......I just hope the contest does not become, "Let's see how much we can make a TB look like a WB!!"

I am going to go tell my friend who just dropped around $40,000 on a thoroughbred that she is financially disadvantaged just because she bought a thoroughbred instead of a warmblood. Considering that is more than what I paid for my last warmblood. I think that is a highly judgmental statement to make that owning a thoroughbred over a warmblood automatically puts you at a disadvantage.

How are we making them look like warmbloods? Sorry but my thoroughbred has been blessed with amazing conformation, and decent movement. People rarely can guess he is a thoroughbred, and when I tell them they are in shock, because he looks like a tiny hanoverian stallion. Is that my fault? No. Do I hide the fact he is a thoroughbred? No. I openly share that he is a thoroughbred with others.

I like the thoroughbred classes, up here there are thoroughbred classics sponsored by racing farms, or thoroughbred retirement societies. I really like the idea of them and they are great fun, all the horses competing in them are also competing in the regular divisions and holding their own and doing very well in the respected divisions.

HRF Second Chance
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:30 PM
Thank god I am financially disadvantaged because I could never afford to A show my TB who has a gorgeous full tail that's real. And looks very warmblood-esque except for his withers!

horse n' around
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:40 PM
I think the TB division is great. I wish they offered it in more shows around me. I don't think the TB division is "dumbing down" anyone. It is just another division offered at shows with certain restrictions.They have had non-TB classes for a while and I don't believe they are considered "dumbing down" divisions. Oh, and on the note of fake tails and TB's having scraggly tails, I have been asked on multiple occasions if my TB's tail is fake when braided or that his fake tail looks real. Well, thats because it is. ;) But, I don't really don't care if people use fake tails, just make it look nice. :winkgrin:

DMK
Sep. 23, 2010, 12:46 PM
Rood and Riddle (http://www.roodandriddle.com/2010/04/new-award-to-spotlight-successful-second-career-potential-of-thoroughbred-horses/) already sponsors an award for the top placing TB in many disciplines, Courageous Comet won it in eventing (Antigua award), but I'm not sure who won the Stocking Stuffer (hunter) award.

And CANTER sponsors the highest placed OTTB at some larger events (just did one at Plantation and will be doing an award at Rolex next year), it would be nice if the h/j community/show managers worked with organizations like Rood & Riddle or TOBA to offer similar awards at large hunter jumper shows like WEF, Hampton Classic, WIHS, Devon and so on. Actually, it would be nice to sponsor awards like that at smaller shows as well or even local shows. I think if you wanted to sponsor one, all you would have to do is offer to buy the award and I'm sure most show managers/state associations would be happy to work with you. Everyone loves giving out an award!

And to not be TB elitist (uh, even though I am ;) ), there's not one reason other NA breed associations couldn't do the exact same thing. It would probably do much to focus people on the importance of their horse's breeding as it relates to performance. A lot of hunter riders are stunningly clueles in this area. I used to help a breeder show her babiesin HB and she was transitioning from the DSHB side where bloodline is king. She saw a very handsome horse standing by the rail, held by his rider and asked her what her horse's breeding was. The girl answered "He's from Europe"... Poor Barbara, I do not believe she truly believed my warnings about many hj riders' bloodline knowledge until that very moment. It was a joke between us for years though - "by "From" out of "Europe"...

Swale01
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:33 PM
My TB needs his fake tail if I'm going to braid his tail, otherwise he looks like he's cantering around with a broomstick attached to his butt. :lol: Fortunately we only do a handful of shows a year that are big enough to necessitate tail braiding.

I love the TB division. We're just moving up to 3' this year so we haven't had a chance to do it yet, but I look forward to it. I hope to compete some in the 3' Ammies as well.

I'm glad to have the TB division because I think the breed division helps support the breed in our sport, and in days where there are a few judges out there who prefer to see a lumbering horse jumping a fence with its belly barely clearing the top rail, the classic, rounded look of a talented TB Hunter can use a little promo. ;)

ponymom64
Sep. 23, 2010, 01:40 PM
in days where there are a few judges out there who prefer to see a lumbering horse jumping a fence with its belly barely clearing the top rail, the classic, rounded look of a talented TB Hunter can use a little promo. ;)

True dat!! :)

BeastieSlave
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:33 PM
Is this the right place to voice my frustration with the fact that so many TB's lose their papers and can't prove who they are?! None of the four TB's I currently have at the farm have original papers <sigh> I don't remember it being that way when I was a kid (my OTTB's still had their papers). Is it the bias against Thoroughbreds or are my experiences skewed?

I have a copy of my daughter's little jumper mare's papers. They were turned back in to the JC when ownership was transferred to us, so I understand that.
I believe Mr. Studly came from one of those TB breeders who bred for the hunter ring. It's kind of sad that his current owners don't know more about him and I'd love to know his breeding. BTW, he's one of those 'rare' winning hunter TB's. He did very well at Garden State, Sussex, Devon, etc. and won adult M&S with a former owner some years back.
The lovely guy I got off the track from Finger Lakes doesn't have a tattoo, and while I know his breeding (and plan to pass that along to any future owner), I could never get the trainer/owner to give me his papers.
Lastly, my #2 DD's jumper has done well in jumpers and he has a tattoo, but no one can read it - not even reps from the JC and he has no papers.

So, this means that if any of the shows down here were to offer a TB class, only my jumpers could even hope to participate....

Claudius
Sep. 23, 2010, 02:49 PM
Wow, I apologize for making a comment that was interpreted as "nasty". It was certainly not meant that way. I was for years among the category I described as financially disadvantaged. Maybe that is a poor way to put it. I could not afford to buy a promising Warmblood....one that I thought might become an AA show horse. Nor could I afford a TB that was well started as a show horse and showing the right temperament , movement and jump. The sellers knew when they had one of those and wanted what they were worth. So, I was at a disadvantage. But with OTTBs , I could afford the diamond in the rough and put the time in to it to make it into a good show horse.

Today, I have a lovely TB that is winning in the pre greens . He is the hack winner. But he would never command the price of a warmblood doing the same thing. If he was for sale, he would be a bargain. Someone who was willing to accommodate the tb. challenge would have a competitive hunter. SO would the term, "those with a modest budget" be more appropriate?

At our ring I see TBs that people have gotten off the track for free or almost free...I love that opportunity this represents for both the horses and the owners. These are NOT people who have an A quality Warmblood back in the barn. These are people like I was .....and the Thoroughbred division is a stimulus to these partnerships.

skip916
Sep. 23, 2010, 03:18 PM
thanks to judy big red pony for saying what i was thinking when i read the original post!

i like the TB classes and i think the idea behind it is to promote the breed- plus its always funny to listen to the people ringside saying things like "THAT horse came off the track? wow!"

having ridden an array of oldenburgs, swedish WBs, DWBs and TB's over the years, i found that what breed of horse i choose to buy and show has much more to do with what type of horse i like to ride despite the breed stereotypes that are so often discussed. it's about who i get along with and who gets along with me and which horse has nice conformation and good movement and a natural ability over fences rather than what is currently "trendy" in the show ring. if you are buying a horse based on in being trendy- i worry about you! buy shoes that are trendy- not horses!

also, my personal theory is that i would rather spend money on 10 ottb's to ride and show than one overpriced wb! even though lately, i have found the price of wb's to be comparable to those of tb's when competing at a similar level. so i don't think it's really fair or tactful to judge someone's financial situation based on the breed of horse they riding! off soap box now...

p.s.- my 17 hand off the track TB mare was mistaken for a hanoverian by a VERY knowledgeable breeder who has lovely stallions- she actually made me show her the tattoo! so i think we just can't assume anything about people's horses or the reasons why they own them!

thanks claudius for explaining your original post better above- its hard to interpret peoples tones on the internet!

see you in the show ring, at an event, a dressage show, a hunter pace, or a foxhunt with my sweet TB! :D

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 23, 2010, 03:37 PM
At our ring I see TBs that people have gotten off the track for free or almost free...I love that opportunity this represents for both the horses and the owners. These are NOT people who have an A quality Warmblood back in the barn. These are people like I was .....and the Thoroughbred division is a stimulus to these partnerships.

You are digging a deeper hole for yourself.
Put down the shovel and step away from the keyboard.

How the heck do you know that folks with a TB don't also have quality WB's.

I tend to buy what will do the intended job. You can't ride the papers. If you have a TB that is doing as well as WB's in the ring you would get the same price. After all, it's performance not a breed registry. Or maybe your trainer hands out Kool Aid.

To the poster who asked about horses in the TB division and how they do in rated sections the answer is hard to figure out.
There is no TB Hunter division. It's a made up section that show management defines and the definition can vary from show to show ( been on the track, have a tat etc).
These divisons are only run at 3-4 shows in the mid atlantic area. I'm sure there are some elsewhere but to do a real analysis we'd need a list of all the shows that offer this section.
I'll go back and look at the shows mentioned in this thread and see if I can cross reference any of the horses. If anyone knows of other shows that offer TB classes please post them.

witherbee
Sep. 23, 2010, 03:40 PM
Beaastie Slave - I think more and more OTTBs do not come with their papers because so many of us who have sold them have gotten burned. I sold a hunter trained 3 year old to a woman who was planning to do the hunters with a "Not to race" contract. She then sold him to an eventer and next thing I knew I saw his name on the Entries at Woodbine in Canada. Left messages for the trainer and tracked him while he was racing, but lost him eventually (trainer would not respond). My messages to the trainer were "I used t own XXX and see he looks great and is doing well for you (he actually was not doing very well). Just wanted to let you know that he has professional hunter jumper training and I would be happy to buy him back or help to place him if you are looking to sell him...". Was even written on the papers, but that is not a "legal" method to have a horse taken out of racing eligability - you have to return the papers to the JC as dead.

Anyway, that is why SOME do not come with papers. For others, it's that the papers get lost between the trainer, the owner or the racetrack - when the horse is done racing, they often get left at the racetrack or with the trainer....

keepthelegend
Sep. 23, 2010, 04:14 PM
You are digging a deeper hole for yourself.
Put down the shovel and step away from the keyboard.

How the heck do you know that folks with a TB don't also have quality WB's.

I


I really feel bad for the OP! Of course there are expensive Thoroughbreds and people who buy for talent and not the breed and there are also people who seek out TBs due to personal preference with finances not playing a role. For sure the good TB"s don't need a special division to win ribbons. Everyone seems so defensive about this, but all the OP was trying to say ( I think) is that for the percentage of people who do have a tight budget, the TB is a way to obtain a fancy prospect for free or close to it. This rare division offered at a handful of shows will not be as expensive as the rated divisions so for the percentage of people who DID buy for financial reasons, this division will be nice for them. Mostly I think it would be used as a warmup or practice for the TBs showing in other divisions and have very few people solely showing in it. Anyway, I don't think the OP is trying to say only poor people want or have TBs.

RugBug
Sep. 23, 2010, 04:32 PM
Heh...I took no offense to the OP's "financially disadvantaged" quote. There is truth in it...the TB dominates at lower level and less expensive shows because a TB can often be purchased for a whole lot less than a WB. It's fact...not opinion. There, of course, are exceptions to the rule. I just had a judge comment how nice it was to see so many TBs at my schooling show. The reality is, the lower level shows are swimming in TBs...some nicer than others just like any breed.

While I don't consider myself "financially disadvantaged" (because how could I when I own two horses?), I do not have NEAR the discretionary income of a lot of people regularly showing. I own a TB and a WB. The WB often gets confused for a TB. The TB will never be considered anything but. The TB cost twice (+ a bit) as much as the WB. Both have huge strides and have no problem making distances. The TB actually has a nicer jump than the WB.

As for as a TB division? It might be fun to spotlight some great horses, but I do agree it's a case of dumbing down. The quality TBs are going to be competitive against other quality horses. If a showcase is needed for the lesser quality ones, well, maybe they don't belong in the big leagues.

Go Fish
Sep. 23, 2010, 05:03 PM
If a showcase is needed for the lesser quality ones, well, maybe they don't belong in the big leagues.

And, there you have it in a nutshell.

BeastieSlave
Sep. 23, 2010, 05:11 PM
How the heck do you know that folks with a TB don't also have quality WB's.

Exactly!! ;)


If you have a TB that is doing as well as WB's in the ring you would get the same price. After all, it's performance not a breed registry. Or maybe your trainer hands out Kool Aid.

See, this is part of the problem. I think plenty of trainers appreciate a nice TB, but how many actually take clients to look at horses (at a level that's not the highest) that are advertised as TB's or OTTB's? This is why I was advised to market my guy as something else...

witherbee, I appreciate that there are owners like you who are working to ensure their horses don't race again (that's why our mare's papers were sent back to the JC), and I'm sure plenty papers just get lost along the way, but it sure does seem like more TB's are separated from their papers these days. Could some of it be that the ones who have show records are starting over with new names and their owners don't want to go through the whole name change process/expense so rather than change the name, they just register the horse with a new name and everything having to do with the old one vanishes? My old WB gelding had that happen.

skip916
Sep. 23, 2010, 05:23 PM
just for the sake of interest- our local dressage shows also offer a Thoroughbred class.... see here:

http://www.goodhorseman.org/2010%20sept%20Dressage%20and%20Breed%20Prize%20Lis t.pdf

Janet
Sep. 23, 2010, 05:33 PM
There is no TB Hunter division.
I beg to differ. it is right there in the rule book

HU106 Regular Hunter – Definition and Classifications.
1. A Regular Hunter is a horse of any age and is not restricted by previous showing.
2. The Green and Regular Sections may be divided into the following classifications:
a. Small—not exceeding 15.2 and 1/2 hands.
b. Thoroughbred—registered in any stud book recognized by the Jockey Club.
c. Non-thoroughbred—not registered as in (b).
d. Three-year-olds
e. Four-year-olds and over

janedoe726
Sep. 23, 2010, 05:35 PM
Heh...I took no offense to the OP's "financially disadvantaged" quote. There is truth in it...the TB dominates at lower level and less expensive shows because a TB can often be purchased for a whole lot less than a WB. It's fact...not opinion. There, of course, are exceptions to the rule. I just had a judge comment how nice it was to see so many TBs at my schooling show. The reality is, the lower level shows are swimming in TBs...some nicer than others just like any breed.


RugBug, yet again, you took the words right out of my mouth! Well said!

onthehill
Sep. 23, 2010, 05:47 PM
I'd like to see it be a "tattoo" division, i.e., the TB was tattoo'd (as opposed to the rider) & had at least the race training, except that it wouldn't help the TBs who didn't even make it far enough in training to get tattoo'd & ON the track, much less become OTTBs.

Then again, I'm old enough to remember when EVERYONE rode TBs in hunter divisions & we all were in awe of the first warmblood hunter in the barn . . . after all, they were only for dressage back then.

I also remember when the TB classes were the tough ones in the hunter breeding division & people considered themselves lucky if their TB had washed out at the track, before getting tattoo'd. They'd lose the JC papers & enter them in the non-TB division (because back then, everyone was trying to make their QH & App & Paint & Warmblood look like a TB).

LOL !!!!!!

Yes - the last horse show I went to (a LLLLLOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGG time ago) they had the "Non-thoroughbred" division. And if you showed in that division - you were not considered cool. Exactly the reverse of the way it is now.

If you have a good hunter? Who gives a da** what breed it is.

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 23, 2010, 05:57 PM
I beg to differ. it is right there in the rule book

A description in the rule book does not = rated division.
Please find me the national or zone results for TB hunters.

don't bother to trouble yourself, there aren't any.

What you quoted is a definition about how to subdivide the regular and green hunter divisions if desired. Same thing as the Smalls.

stuff like this is often left up to show management to define.

At one of the shows mentioned some of the classes are restricted to horses that raced, another section doesn't have that restriction.
Some shows seem to define TB as 'eligible to be registered' if they don't have TB papers.

SquishTheBunny
Sep. 23, 2010, 10:56 PM
Based on the horses that are winning in the TB hunter division, do these horses place well in the other divisions without breed limitations?


Absolutley!! Looking at the Ontario A standings:

3 TB's in the younger adult amateurs (out of 80 horses), are in the top 20. There are only 4 TB's that show in that division.

TB in the childrens hunter is in the top 15 of 72.

Amateur Medal champion of the season is an OTTB....he was the only TB in the medal finals.

2 TB's are in the top 10 of 60+ low adults...and yes, there are significantly more TB's in this division.

So yes, I would say the TB's do place well in "open" divisions. Not saying that "Any" TB can, or any WB for that matter. Just simply stating, a good horse is a good horse, regardless of breed. For the most part, these TB's doing well in the standings look similar to most other horses in their sizerange.

And as for the original question about a TB Division - I dont think its necessary. While there are a handful of VERY nice TB's showing, it makes them more valued and appreciated when they can jog with "ANY" horse. Occasional special "TB Classics" are fun, especially because they allow you to show at your division height (3' or 3'6).

Sonoma City
Sep. 24, 2010, 10:27 AM
Absolutley!! Looking at the Ontario A standings:

3 TB's in the younger adult amateurs (out of 80 horses), are in the top 20. There are only 4 TB's that show in that division.

TB in the childrens hunter is in the top 15 of 72.

Amateur Medal champion of the season is an OTTB....he was the only TB in the medal finals.

2 TB's are in the top 10 of 60+ low adults...and yes, there are significantly more TB's in this division.

So yes, I would say the TB's do place well in "open" divisions. Not saying that "Any" TB can, or any WB for that matter. Just simply stating, a good horse is a good horse, regardless of breed. For the most part, these TB's doing well in the standings look similar to most other horses in their sizerange.

And as for the original question about a TB Division - I dont think its necessary. While there are a handful of VERY nice TB's showing, it makes them more valued and appreciated when they can jog with "ANY" horse. Occasional special "TB Classics" are fun, especially because they allow you to show at your division height (3' or 3'6).


Thanks for coming up with all these standings! I don't think I worded the intent of my original question very well though. I know that there are very good TBs that compete in the adults and other open divisions and do well (a nice horse is a nice horse no matter the breeding). My point is more to find out if people with TBs that don't think they can compete (place well) in the open divisions compete in the TB division instead because they can place better there. Or vice versa...does the person with the very nice competative TB bother with the TB division, or do they just compete in the open division? Not that it's a bad thing to pick and choose your division, since people ride in the divisions that they are most suited for, but just trying to figure out the make up of who enters the TB division.

flash1
Sep. 24, 2010, 10:28 AM
I have an OTTB who looks a lot like a WB without me trying to make him that way. I have actually shown people his tattoo since they did not believe he is a TB.

Of course I also have an OTTB who, based on looks, has never been mistaken for anything else ;)

Both of them are good horses and have been judged fairly when they show.

Sounds like my two...( both tattoed BTW) D looks like a WB...( actually only raced 1x came in dead last) and Flash could never be mistaken for anything but what he is....based on looks and temperment...

SquishTheBunny
Sep. 24, 2010, 10:45 AM
Thanks for coming up with all these standings! I don't think I worded the intent of my original question very well though. I know that there are very good TBs that compete in the adults and other open divisions and do well (a nice horse is a nice horse no matter the breeding). My point is more to find out if people with TBs that don't think they can compete (place well) in the open divisions compete in the TB division instead because they can place better there. Or vice versa...does the person with the very nice competative TB bother with the TB division, or do they just compete in the open division? Not that it's a bad thing to pick and choose your division, since people ride in the divisions that they are most suited for, but just trying to figure out the make up of who enters the TB division.

Ahhhh...I see what you are getting at.

I think the answer is no. If your TB is not good enough to place at an A rated show, then a TB division wont get him there. There are plenty of well run B shows (at least in our area) as well as schooling shows.

Not to sound rude, but if someone only had the finances to buy a mediocre TB with a fair jump and fair movement, they wouldnt have the finances to show an entire A circuit season with it (lets face it, they arent cheap - one show can cost MORE than a TB!)

However,a fancy TB with a fancy jump/movement - is going to do well in any crowd.

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
I looked at the results for three shows that have a TB division.
The specs are different for each show.
Some shows ask that you show under the jc name. That may or may not be the USEF recorded name.
Very few horses turn up in the results for more than one show.
The horses that are winning are for the most part ridden by pros.( and based on the owners the 'financially disadvantaged' comment would not apply LOL)

I've only found 3 horses so far that also show in USEF rated divisions.

Some of them are young horses also doing some sort of unrated baby green or Hopeful hunter classes.

I used Upperville, Maryland Horse and Pony Show (2009 results) and a show at KHP.

If I have time later I'll continue to research who is showing in these sections.

Someone mentioned Capitol Challenge as having TB divisions. Not sure if they had them in the past but they do not now according to the prize list.

Jumper_girl221
Sep. 24, 2010, 12:06 PM
I was browsing the Deep Run website (in VA) and noticed they had a OTTB hunter class in their fall show. I'm not sure exactly what its rated, I know the Spring show is AA but the TB division is unrated.

I'm hoping to try and go next year if they offer that with my rising 4 OTTB with two starts, just enough to qualify!!!

Anyway, here are the class specs:

The OTTB Hunter Division is open to former racehorses, as evidenced by a Jockey Club lip tattoo. Cross entering of horse and rider is permitted. Six ribbons and a Championship and Reserve will be awarded, and the champion will be honored by a donation to the James River chapter of the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation. Jogging is not required. There are no year end points for this division


And the classes
26. OTTB Hunter 2’ no jog
27. OTTB Hunter 2’ no jog
28. OTTB Hunter under saddle

Equine Adhesive
Sep. 24, 2010, 12:15 PM
I haven't read each and every post, but I am not offended by the OP, nor do I think she meant to offend. I do not interpret her as saying "ALL TB owners are on a modest budget" type thing. I think she is saying that IF you are on a modest budget, but have big dreams, buying a OTTB might be a great opportunity for you. She then used herself as an example. I don't think she is saying anything about the quality of the horse or the wallet of its owner.
That said, if you are to buy a TB unraced and bred for the show ring, you might expect to pay the same as you would for a similar WB (young prospect) that is also bred for the showring- given both horses are in the same country. But, you have more opportunities to buy a sport-bred TB for less due to the young horse sales.

THAT SAID, a horse's quality and level of success will always depend on 3 things:

its soundness
who trains it
its athletic ability

IN that order! Regardless of breed.

As a sidenote, my new (untat'd) TB definitely does look like a WB and if I do hunters with him, no one will know he is a TB. (He is 17.1hh, 84" blanket, huge feet & bone, naturally full mane/tail- only clear indication is cob-sized head). But it will say TB on his entries, and I for one will always be a lifelong TB lover!

chawley
Sep. 24, 2010, 12:18 PM
Separating the TBs into their own division is dumbing it down enough already. It reinforces the idea that they can't compete with the WBs in the regular divisions. If you have a nice TB, it shouldn't look noticeably different from the rest of the horses at the show, and you should show it proudly in whatever division for which it's best suited. If it's a good horse, it will still win. Bad overflexed riding and bad fake tails are inappropriate, whatever the breed, but I don't think you can make rules that enforce good taste ;).

I couldn't agree more.

danceronice
Sep. 24, 2010, 12:20 PM
I woudl flip "who trains it" with "athletic ability", because while a bad trainer can screw up an athleticly gifted horse, the best trainer on the planet won't make a horse go 4' if he hasn't got the ability.

TooManyChickens
Sep. 24, 2010, 12:35 PM
The Deep Run fall show was not rated.. it is a local CHSA/VHSA show. (And just an FYI, the 2-day Deep Run spring show is not AA... the July Old Dominion Horse Show as well as the June Deep Run Horse Show are AA).

The DR Fall show is always a fantastic show, but I was thrilled that they also offered the OTTB division. There were around 10 riders, on some beautiful horses. I brought my 5 year old over. The division was a qualifier for the TB Celebration Show $1,000 Hunter Stake, which will take place in November (and talk about a fantastic show series for the OTTB.. it's at the VA horse center, 3 shows/yr). These are not rated, however, the competition is great, the awards are amazing, the show is incredibly well run, and its a great place to showcase these horses. I know several riders that show there who also show at the AA shows, and do very well. My goal is to one day get my youngster to the AAs.

And I don't know if I necessarily agree that having TB divisions at the rated shows are 'dumbing them down'. I think it's a chance to really show people what incredible athletes these horses are, what heart they have, and their amazing abilities as hunters and jumpers. I think it helps to bring attention to the TB/OTTB. And while some may call me 'financially disadvantaged' I have found there is no greater joy than bringing along one of these horses, and while it's not for everyone, bringing along an OTTB is a great joy. And they give it back to you 10 fold.

DMK
Sep. 24, 2010, 01:17 PM
I am torn on the TB division - on one hand there is an element of dumbing it down out there, but on the other hand in a lot of markets (and VA may be the notable exception here) a TB frequently is looked at by newer members of the sport as the other less desirable option. In a perfect world, a good horse is a good horse, but nobody lives in a perfect world and there certainly is a perception out there that a TB is not your preferred choice, not really an option you would spend a lot of time considering. But if you pay attention, you do see some nice TBs out there competing and I always wonder if some of the less informed participants in our sport knew how many nice horses out there were TBs, then maybe the perception would be rocked a bit. I think I like the idea of a grand championship TB hunter award. Not a specific class or division, but the TB with the highest points in the A/zone rated divisions, then you are just calling attention to successful examples of the breed.

foursocks
Sep. 24, 2010, 01:46 PM
I'm not involved in showing hunters anymore, but I find this an interesting discussion. I think having TB-only classes is a fun way to, as someone said, reintroduce the potential of the breed, and the type, if it's for OTTBs, to the hunter world. I had one TB and one OTTB for my junior horses at a time when most WBs were considered too dressagey to do well and the top A/O horse in the country was an OTTB (in my barn, no less!) Helping showcase TBs is simply a reminder that these are wonderful sporthorses who can fit very nicely into the hunter world.

I also have to laugh at the poster who claimed this is "affirmative action." Really? I'm now picturing some innocent, equally talented and utterly deserving WB out there who has been disadvantaged by the Back from the Track Hack classes. :lol:

Claudius
Sep. 24, 2010, 01:48 PM
RUG BUG and KEEPTHELEGEND......thank you for your correct interpretation of my original post. I am always surprized at the defensiveness on this board. Thank you for mentioning that I used myself as a prime example...I just guess my "financially disadantaged" was a poor choice of words. One of my horses off the track,bought for $1500.00...he became A/O horse of the year.....I could have afforded for him to just be average and he still would have been a bargain. I have NEVER seen a Warmblood of anywhere NEAR that horse's quality, for sale for $1500.!!!!!

BEASTIE SLAVE.......I am reffering to the area I live in , Zone II. Although we have growing TB divisions, they do not sell as well as WB. When my TB wins the pre green hack and two over fences classes, there are lots of comments about how cute he is...some say, "That's a TB isn't it?" and when I reply in the affirmative , they say "cute.", but not, "what do you want for him." When he was younger and I wanted to sell him, inspite of being able to say he was a ten mover and jumper, was second in the Young Hunter Under Saddle at Devon, I found I got a sluggish response. "Too bad he's a TB " was the reaction of two pros. So, maybe where YOU live it is differnt, but that's is how it is in the NE in my experience.

CBoylen.....I agree that a good Tb should be able to compete in any division. My Tb has done so in the pre greens and the AA. But I feel it is a great division to draw TB owners back to the shows. And if a Tb does well in his first few shows in the TB division, for sure they will switch them to compete with the WB. I did, and felt well judged always. And the TB division is a less expensive division than the recognized divisions where I have shown, and that is helpful to those of us who are....hmmmmm....how to say this right.....ummmmm....Thrifty?? Conservative ?? ....hope that works.

Sonoma City
Sep. 24, 2010, 02:03 PM
I'm not involved in showing hunters anymore, but I find this an interesting discussion. I think having TB-only classes is a fun way to, as someone said, reintroduce the potential of the breed, and the type, if it's for OTTBs, to the hunter world.

This is a good point, however, I wonder if it does just the opposite. Part of the reason I say this is that I didn't know much about the TB division at all before reading this thread, but now I kind of have the impression that it's a less competative division than other divisions. Don't interpret this as that all TBs are not competative, but that maybe the TBs that enter this division are less competative (again, this is all based on trying to figure out what people are implying in their posts). I think all divisions are separated to some extent so that the playing field can be leveled a bit. Like there are younger and older adults, younger and older childrens, different divisions for ammies and pros, etc. So separating the TBs seems like the show is trying to level the playing field for the TBs, which could be interpreted as negative for the breed as opposed to positive.

On another note, I think it would be awesome to have an overall TB aware regardless of the division (maybe even do a champion and researve TB), as one of the above posters mentioned. That would be a real way to honor the TBs without segregating them into a separate division.

Claudius
Sep. 24, 2010, 02:10 PM
"[QUOTE=PineTreeFarm;5115784]You are digging a deeper hole for yourself.
Put down the shovel and step away from the keyboard."

No thanks, I leave the hole digging to you.

"How the heck do you know that folks with a TB don't also have quality WB's."

Because I KNOW THEM, I specifically referred to horses that came to school at the same ring I school in....I know where they got their horses, I even went with some of them to get their horses.

"These divisons are only run at 3-4 shows in the mid atlantic area. I'm sure there are some elsewhere but to do a real analysis we'd need a list of all the shows that offer this section."

These classes are run at many shows in Md.,culminating in the "Tb. Hunter Classic, for which the horses must qualify during the season , at many shows in Pennsylvania, and at WEF at every show.

SquishTheBunny
Sep. 24, 2010, 02:14 PM
I looked at the results for three shows that have a TB division.
The specs are different for each show.
Some shows ask that you show under the jc name. That may or may not be the USEF recorded name.
Very few horses turn up in the results for more than one show.
The horses that are winning are for the most part ridden by pros.( and based on the owners the 'financially disadvantaged' comment would not apply LOL)

I've only found 3 horses so far that also show in USEF rated divisions.

Some of them are young horses also doing some sort of unrated baby green or Hopeful hunter classes.

I used Upperville, Maryland Horse and Pony Show (2009 results) and a show at KHP.

If I have time later I'll continue to research who is showing in these sections.

Someone mentioned Capitol Challenge as having TB divisions. Not sure if they had them in the past but they do not now according to the prize list.

I find that strage....and very different from the Ontario results. And maybe thats because Ontario has a fairly large horse population? Not sure.

For example, top 6 TB Hunter Classic winners, ALL have extensive show records in core divisions. This is the results from just one of the TB classics this year:

1st place - 8th overall in Older Adult Amateurs (50 horses)
2nd place - 20th overall in Younger Adults (80 horses)
3rd place - 15th overall in Childrens Hunters (70 horses)
4th place - 14th overall in Younger Adults (80 horses)
5th place - (this one only showed a few shows, but good ribbons in the olders)
6th place - 16th overall in Amateur Owners (50 horses)

There are on average 14-18 entries for the TB classics.

None were ridden by pros. Most have EC Core records, and good ones!

It seems TB's at least up here, are becoming more popular. 4 years ago there were only 7 entries in the TB Classic, those numbers have more than doubled now. And its nice to see several in the top 20.

I dont think this warrants an entire DIVISION, but occasional TB classes are wonderful....especially the victory gallops!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RugBug
Sep. 24, 2010, 02:46 PM
I dont think this warrants an entire DIVISION, but occasional TB classes are wonderful....especially the victory gallops!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol: My TB doesn't gallop. It's hard enough to get him into anything other than a nice lopey canter. His track record was abyssmal. Five starts, broke first in 4 but was already out of it before you could blink your eyes. I'd love to do a nice victory lope, though. :winkgrin:

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 24, 2010, 03:06 PM
"[quote=PineTreeFarm;5115784]You are digging a deeper hole for yourself.
Put down the shovel and step away from the keyboard."

No thanks, I leave the hole digging to you.

"How the heck do you know that folks with a TB don't also have quality WB's."

Because I KNOW THEM, I specifically referred to horses that came to school at the same ring I school in....I know where they got their horses, I even went with some of them to get their horses.

"These divisons are only run at 3-4 shows in the mid atlantic area. I'm sure there are some elsewhere but to do a real analysis we'd need a list of all the shows that offer this section."

These classes are run at many shows in Md.,culminating in the "Tb. Hunter Classic, for which the horses must qualify during the season , at many shows in Pennsylvania, and at WEF at every show.

Ok, so it's only your ring mates that you insulted. LOL

Most of the shows that have TB divisions are not rated shows. I think another poster made that clear earlier in the thread.

Pleaase supply the names of all those shows in MD ( rated only) and I'll be glad to add them to the data.

I don't recall WEF having TB divisions but I'll check that.

Hauwse
Sep. 24, 2010, 03:08 PM
I am not even certain I like the Thoroughbred division.

I would quote it but is back at the beginning of the thread, but Cboylen, I believe, is correct in stating that having the division is bad enough.

Regardless of the popularity of the TB, TB's need to to stand on their own four feet and compete against the Warm Bloods, and other breeds, successfully, to dispel the perception that plagues them currently.

Back in the day when WB's first started gracing the ring they stood out more, I was in Calgary at the time when the SM and Southerns started their Hanoverian program, and they had some horses that looked like they just emerged from the mud, but today modern WB's look, to me, in general, like, almost any horse bred for athleticism, and that includes the TB's. And as the owner of over 25 TB's currently, and more than a few "modern" WB's, I have a good personal sample to look at daily and they all look like horses to me.

I personally think on our end, the hunter/jumper/dressage/eventing disciplines, we need to stop worrying about protecting TB's and focus on developing them, period. Nothing elevates a horses status, as a breed, more than kicking the butts of other horses. If we cannot get them to perform on par with WB's, then they do not deserve special recognition.

The reality is that the TB's plight is almost built into their situation. They are, for the most part, failed race horses, can't compete, too big to run, show no promise in initial training, run out of conditions, etc. Racing breeders produce between 30 and 40 thousand of them each year, and a relatively small number make it to the track, so as far as their industry is concerned they have little to no value. The NA hunter jumper industry has never really focused on TB breeding, we don't keep track of successful bloodlines, even if you did we could not compete with the racing industry as far as purchasing power goes, so we have never really been the JC's golden parachute. They are sold cheap and become the breeding stock for every breed association under the sun. They are purchased by those who have not the first idea how to develop a horse for our disciplines, and so it goes on and on.

In the end the problem for the TB is that the numbers that ever achieve anything in our discipline are few and far between, and until that changes a zillion TB classes, and all the promotion in the world is not going to change their situation.

Swale01
Sep. 24, 2010, 03:31 PM
[quote=Claudius;5117576]"

Most of the shows that have TB divisions are not rated shows. I think another poster made that clear earlier in the thread.

Pleaase supply the names of all those shows in MD ( rated only) and I'll be glad to add them to the data.


I beg to differ. I realize that the TB division in and of itself is not USEF recognized, but here in MD it is a part of MANY of our USEF rated shows.

LIST BELOW:
McDonogh’s New Year’s Classic Horse Show (USEF B rated)
McDonogh Winter Classic (USEF B rated)
McDonogh Spring Classic (USEF B rated)
Showplace Spring Festival (USEF A rated)
Maryland National Horse Show (USEF A rated)
[McDonogh Spring Horse Show I (USEF B rated)
McDonogh Spring Horse Show II (USEF B rated)
Maryland Summer Classic (USEF A rated)
Boumi Temple Horse Show (USEF A rated)
June One Day Show (USEF B rated)
The Swan Lake Summer Kickoff Classic (USEF A rated) – show in PA, but points recognized for the MD Division
Swan Lake Stables Stroller I - (USEF A rated) – show in PA, but points recognized for the MD Division
Swan Lake Stables Stroller II - (USEF A rated) – show in PA, but points recognized for the MD Division
Bay State Classic (USEF A rated)
Maryland Horse and Pony Show (USEF A rated) – both the full division offered, and the end of year Classic

crazyhorses
Sep. 24, 2010, 03:43 PM
Am I the only one with a WB that sometimes acts like a TB?? LOL

All this talk about pushing the WB's along is so... odd to me. I've ridden WB's and TB's. I like both. My WB is def. get up and go when she wants to, she knows when I want to. Sometimes she gets difficult. I guess it must be her 1/16 TB... lol.

Her mom was even worse in the hot department.

A friend of mine has a TB that is not OTTB and he is as calm as can be most days. Calmer than my WB!

I don't think it's really "fair" to compare the two. You can have a psycho WB or a totally lazy TB.

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 24, 2010, 03:48 PM
About WEF?
There's sadly a difference between offering the divisions and actually running them. It seems the reason I can't recall them, is because well, they didn't fill.

There was a TB pleasure horse division, a 3' hunter division and a 3'3" division offered. So thanks for providing that info.

WEF 1 none of the three divisions ran
WEF 2 3 horses in the 3' division, no 3'3" division, no pleasure horse.
WEF 3 4 horses in the 3' division, no 3'3", no pleasure horse

I'm not going to go through all 12 weeks but I think a trend was established.

IMHO we don't need a TB division at rated shows. It's like admitting that they have the need to only compete amongst themselves to place well or place at all.
At the zone level you do see TB's doing well in Childrens Hunters and Adult Amateur Hunters. And there certainly are some in the AA and Childrens jumpers.

There are some individuals breeding TB's for the show ring. But it seems that they are destined for HB classes and then disappear.
There are a number of TB bloodlines recognized as having value in a Hunter program and far more in the eventing world. And still a few in the jumpers. The Bonne Nuit line has been around for more than 70 years and still produces winners. But those horses were bred for the ring, not for the track. You will more likely see those bloodlines crossed on a WB breeding program.
Raja Baba is another TB line that produces Hunters, Jumpers and Eventers. He was a success as a race horse but also for breeding sporthorses.

There are many more lines that consistently produce good sporthorses.

It's usually an accident that we find a TB line to breed to. The stud fees are prohibitive so the way they change jobs is when they flunk racehorse 101 and someone tries them to see if they can jump. This scattered approach makes it difficult to determine if a line has real promise or are we just seeing a lot of them because the sire bred a 100 mares every year and a bunch tried to transition to Hunter/Jumper.

One approach would be to ID the TB's and do stats on each bloodline. However USEF is not cooperative when asked to supply that data.

Anybody want to add anymore success story TB bloodlines.

PineTreeFarm
Sep. 24, 2010, 03:51 PM
[quote=PineTreeFarm;5117668]

I beg to differ. I realize that the TB division in and of itself is not USEF recognized, but here in MD it is a part of MANY of our USEF rated shows.

LIST BELOW:
McDonogh’s New Year’s Classic Horse Show (USEF B rated)
McDonogh Winter Classic (USEF B rated)
McDonogh Spring Classic (USEF B rated)
Showplace Spring Festival (USEF A rated)
Maryland National Horse Show (USEF A rated)
[McDonogh Spring Horse Show I (USEF B rated)
McDonogh Spring Horse Show II (USEF B rated)
Maryland Summer Classic (USEF A rated)
Boumi Temple Horse Show (USEF A rated)
June One Day Show (USEF B rated)
The Swan Lake Summer Kickoff Classic (USEF A rated) – show in PA, but points recognized for the MD Division
Swan Lake Stables Stroller I - (USEF A rated) – show in PA, but points recognized for the MD Division
Swan Lake Stables Stroller II - (USEF A rated) – show in PA, but points recognized for the MD Division
Bay State Classic (USEF A rated)
Maryland Horse and Pony Show (USEF A rated) – both the full division offered, and the end of year Classic

Well thanks I'll look them up.

I can tell you in the NE this division doesn't exist and it looks like non existent in the west.

Rezonator
Sep. 24, 2010, 03:57 PM
People who talk about the TB "decline" in the Hunters always dance around one of the real reasons without ever wanting to hit the nail on the head. Hauwse, you give a lot of good reasons for the "plight" of the TB in the sport (I agree with them!) but there's one big one everyone likes to avoid pointing out. Many of the judges in Hunters make their weekday livelihoods breeding or selling horses. Making commissions on student's horses. You get the picture. Even if a judge's preference for what may be - WAIT - *UPFRONT ADMISSION OF A GENERALIZATION ALERT* - a bigger-boned horse with a more hollowed-out jump is not intentionally biased, a judge probably can't help that his or her personal preference has been influenced by their daily livelihood. And when ammies can get TBs off the track and be successful with them, it threatens a big slice of income in horse world.

At least in a TB division, you remove that factor. Now, I'd rather prove my horse in an open division, judges biases be damned. Some judges still love the athletic TB and that classic look. But I can see how some people would get frustrated and want to find a competitive spot for their TB if you just can't get a fair shake in some places.

Summit Springs Farm
Sep. 24, 2010, 04:21 PM
My WB wears a fake tail, I own imported WBs and I alsoown OTTBs!

And in some areas OTTB stands for Other Than TB not off the trackTBs;)

Jumper_girl221
Sep. 24, 2010, 04:22 PM
The Deep Run fall show was not rated.. it is a local CHSA/VHSA show. (And just an FYI, the 2-day Deep Run spring show is not AA... the July Old Dominion Horse Show as well as the June Deep Run Horse Show are AA).

The DR Fall show is always a fantastic show, but I was thrilled that they also offered the OTTB division. There were around 10 riders, on some beautiful horses. I brought my 5 year old over. The division was a qualifier for the TB Celebration Show $1,000 Hunter Stake, which will take place in November (and talk about a fantastic show series for the OTTB.. it's at the VA horse center, 3 shows/yr). These are not rated, however, the competition is great, the awards are amazing, the show is incredibly well run, and its a great place to showcase these horses. I know several riders that show there who also show at the AA shows, and do very well. My goal is to one day get my youngster to the AAs.

And I don't know if I necessarily agree that having TB divisions at the rated shows are 'dumbing them down'. I think it's a chance to really show people what incredible athletes these horses are, what heart they have, and their amazing abilities as hunters and jumpers. I think it helps to bring attention to the TB/OTTB. And while some may call me 'financially disadvantaged' I have found there is no greater joy than bringing along one of these horses, and while it's not for everyone, bringing along an OTTB is a great joy. And they give it back to you 10 fold.

Thank you for the correction! I was going by their website http://www.deeprunhorseshow.com/ Which says the June show was a AA? I have always mostly done the jumpers, so have shown at Deep Run for the CVSJA but not shown there as a hunter.

I'm starting my new girl in the hunters this winter as a four year old, so hoping to take her to some bigger shows since she has the look for it. Even track fit, I had comments about how much like a warmblood she looks.

This was her track fit back in July at Keeneland
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l182/nicolemorgans/Kissey/35608_416748204848_623039848_4632544_4441494_n.jpg ?t=1285356129

CBoylen
Sep. 24, 2010, 04:23 PM
Someone mentioned Capitol Challenge as having TB divisions. Not sure if they had them in the past but they do not now according to the prize list.
I can't find my prizelist (it's possible my mother may have burned it with the way the fees have gone up at that show ;)). How are the Future Hunters split this year? There are usually 6 sections, one of which started out as a TB section but for the past few years has been TB/TB cross. It's historically the lightest section and I've known or at least suspected more than a few horses that have suddenly discovered a TB parent in order to compete in that section and thus have a better chance at qualifying for the classic.

And, for the record Claudius, I took no offense at your comment. I have a lovely TB that I am very proud of, for whom we paid exactly the same amount of money as we paid for Rox Dene. You can probably make quite a few entertaining statements off that information, but you can also bet your ass that if it were $1500 I would have told everyone I know ;). It wasn't, but I've never met a person that wasn't thrilled to brag about finding a good horse on the cheap. Trainers especially, if they aren't showing the horse TO you. Why is everyone so insulted? The less you spend on the horse the more you can MAKE on the horse. The only important ingredient is a good horse.

Jumper_girl221
Sep. 24, 2010, 04:28 PM
And I was just looking at the prize list for the upcoming "B" rated VBHSA show at East Coast Equestrian center and noticed that VBHSA is offering a TB division this year as an understudy for 2011. Looking at the accumulated points it seems fairly competitive, so maybe they will have it again next year!

My girl won't be quite ready to show over fences next week, (lol) but that would be a fun division next year!

Moesha
Sep. 27, 2010, 06:15 PM
I don't think it is dumbing it down, but do understand why the idea was brought up, we see unintended consequences all the time far from the original intentions of something. I will say knowing the winners the past two years, last year "Nick Danger" a winning pre-green and adult horse and this year "Mater Plan" a seasoned and proven winner all over the place, certainly the quality of the horses is not an issue.

I also see more and more TB's out there, in fact they are everywhere, I don't think they need to be re-introduced because they are out there already winning.The market is not the same as it was 20 years ago and that most likely will never be a TB dominated sport again, because now there are so many different types and crosses etc out there showing....so that being said....I think having these TB divisions, especially the way MHSA is doing it with the invitational is brilliant and actually showcases the TB's because it all about them....

Hauwse
Sep. 28, 2010, 12:49 PM
Many of the judges in Hunters make their weekday livelihoods breeding or selling horses. Making commissions on student's horses. You get the picture. Even if a judge's preference for what may be - WAIT - *UPFRONT ADMISSION OF A GENERALIZATION ALERT* - a bigger-boned horse with a more hollowed-out jump is not intentionally biased, a judge probably can't help that his or her personal preference has been influenced by their daily livelihood. And when ammies can get TBs off the track and be successful with them, it threatens a big slice of income in horse world.

The money involved is a very valid point.

We tend to forget that we did not simply start buying or preferring WB's because of their success internationally alone. The Western European WB breed associations were/are great at marketing, they found a niche and targeted it with incredible accuracy.

Today we import hundreds of millions of dollars worth of horse flesh, primarily from Western Europe, if not for western and racing disciplines our equine trade deficit would be ridiculous.

So I agree totally, any major movement towards North American legacy bloodlines is going to have a major financial impact on the European equine industry, and I hazard to guess that Western Europe would prefer that not happen as would many, many North Americans involved in importing and sales.

It would also have a major impact on the governing bodies of the sports, and the balance of control which would have a positive trickle down effect on the viability of such a direction change. Again it equates to big dollars lost.

However since this will never happen, in the same way we will not all start driving North American made cars, we have to go back to square one and let performance drive the direction of the industry.

GreystoneKC
Sep. 28, 2010, 02:10 PM
I also did not take any offense to OP's statement and simply understood it as she seemed to mean it. TBs do often allow people who do not have the pocketbook to afford $$$ horses to find a quality horse at a lesser price. Feel free to ask my customers. There's a reason I have a barn full of TBs - everything over 14.2h, in fact. :) I like TBs. I like WBs. I like Saddlebreds (well, not for h/j, but they're very pretty...). Truth is, I like a good horse, regardless of its breed. In my barn, we try to compete on an A level in Zone 2 with very little money to burn. So we scour for promise. Sometimes we find a nice one that someone else has already given a great restart, sometimes we luck into one when someone doesn't know how much potential the horse has, a friend of mine got hers directly from the track. It can be a lot of work and occasionally some dirt-eating, but you can get that with any horse!

As for the TB division, I think its ok as a mid-week division, but I'm not sure I want to see it become a regular rated division. I agree with many others that I'd just like to keep seeing the TBs compete against the WBs. As I said, a good trip is a good trip and a good horse is a good horse. I still come across judges that seem to be TB fans.

Oh, and I happen to like fake tails done well.

Moesha
Sep. 28, 2010, 06:15 PM
I agree the comment about the money, I think was based on the pretty common knowledge that most OTTB's are pretty inexpensive in comparision to other horses, but that does not mean that riders and trainers do not invest a lot of money and time into them once they get them home from the track. I think generalizations have a basis, but they do a lot of damge as well, if not in a breed or types unfair reputation then in the also poignant block in peoples really opening their minds to learn and be true horse people.