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SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 21, 2005, 11:15 PM
I'm pretty sure purple has been used...something about illiteracy I think? I think every color has been used, so we can just pick whichever we like best. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Limerick
Dec. 22, 2005, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
The U.S.A Horse Shows Association, Inc. in New Jersey for non-profit sport clubs for equestrian. It is one year old and I'm not surprised you haven't heard because we do not have big budget for marketing.

We have delegates to a Leadership Council from about 14 states, there are no Officers and our website is http://www.usAHSA.org. I have donated this for the benefit of the grassroots to try and find ways to enjoy our sport if you can't spend millions.

In any case what's important is this is the kind of thing we want to help get done and as a non-profit I think we can do it to help. It fits within our charter to make sport honest and fair for everyone regardless of their financial position.

My dream is that some day I will live long enough to see this as a place than can sponsor the good riders without money so they don't have to be politically correct to get a sponsor. And, I dream that we will have the breeding program grow to the point where we like the french can demand that both members of our Olympic Team be American bred.

I know I'm just a foolish old lady and it can't happen but I can dream, and I believe dreams can come true. I hope that I can convince young people to believe in the same thing. And it's just an offer. If there's a better way Harry let's do it.

I think that is one of the most positive things I've read on here lately. Any reps in NC Snowbird?

Lucassb
Dec. 22, 2005, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by harryjohnson:
Thank you for the info, Snowbird. Does your organization have anything working in Connecticut?

Harry,

I am proud to be a usAHSA rep in CT. I would be happy to "share the job," or to provide additional information. My email is in my profile, or you are welcome to PT me.

Lucassb
Dec. 22, 2005, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
Well now SNL you send me one and I will wear it to the USEF Convention and if you want to give me a few spares I will offer them to everyone there. And if they say no or if they say yes, you will all know where we stand.

Snowbird Acres Farm, 204 Schooleys Mountain Road, Long Valley, NJ 07853. I am putting it here because I am proud to be against re-instatement in these circumstances. And I don't pretend to be anonymous.

Snowbird,

Let's take SNL up on her offer and have usAHSA make up some more bracelets. I am willing to fund an initial supply. Maybe we should offer one on our membership apps? You know, "check this box if you would like to support the effort to prevent the reinstatement of the horse killers..."

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 22, 2005, 07:07 AM
Excellent suggestion Lucassb, I would be pleased to send a contribution.

Snowbird
Dec. 22, 2005, 08:52 AM
No not yet!

We have in the northeast so far, New Jersey, New York, Long Island, Maine and Pennsylvania. The Montana Horse Shows Assn. has just joined. We have a lot of activity in Florida and may have our own sanctioned circuit there. Check out our contacts list for all the states covered so far.

It's a very simple association with a National Leadership Council and delegates to each state where we hope and that person will create their own Leadership Council.

Interestingly we have a Delegate in Ireland the Virgin Islands and recently had a request to sanction shows in Bermuda. We're only a year old so I think we're doing well. We are an affiliate of USEF and I am on the Competition Management Committee of USEF. I will be at the Convention in Cincinnati.

It is our intention to be supplemental to the Federation and to be the voice for the disenfranchised grassroots. As the "token" Grass roots person on a Committee I am well aware of the limitations in the thinking of USEF.

We just Affiliated with the Equine Journal and will have a monthly news column as well as all our show results published there. Every member gets a complimentary subscription to the Equine Journal.

If you are interested email me privately and I will be glad to discuss it with you. If you are interested we could use a delegate from Connecticut.

Snowbird
Dec. 22, 2005, 08:57 AM
Excellent, I was just going to email the Leadership group. I will also help fund if you will place the order. You know how far behind I am.

That's a great idea and I'm just working on the new Membership forms.I think we can leave it with voluntary funding and anyone else can make a donation to the fund.

Snowbird
Dec. 22, 2005, 09:01 AM
I like blood red for the blood that was shed by innocent horses. I think that's a great idea so everyone knows how much support there is. We can tie red ribbons at every horse show and put them on every trailer too.

Snowbird
Dec. 22, 2005, 09:04 AM
Thank you Lucassb I am so sorry I forgot which state you covered, I don't know why I was thinking New York. Forgive a well intentioned but old lady.

Will you write up the email for the Leadership group so we can keep them all up to date? You see harry this is how our Leadership Council works there are no officers we all pitch in where we can. And no back room deals. It's all out in front.

Snowbird
Dec. 22, 2005, 09:08 AM
Yes, I think in North Carolina we have two Meredith Taylor and P.Wynn Norman.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 22, 2005, 10:02 AM
Snowbird, please provide (in public) a mailing address for any donations for these wristbands.

Snowbird
Dec. 22, 2005, 11:18 AM
Gladly Harry,

U.S.A. Horse Shows Association, Inc.
204 Schooleys Mountain Road
Long Valley, NJ 07853

Please mark the envelope
"Non-Reinstatement Fund"

If possible a return addressed manila envelope would be very convenient if it's for a bracelet.

I will be glad to post financial accounting as we go along.

If you want to call 908-876-4200

and I can take credit cards but we lose about 3% to the credit card company.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 22, 2005, 11:52 AM
Maybe you can set up a Paypal Account also!!!!

Snowbird
Dec. 22, 2005, 12:07 PM
I'll look into that Harry I hadn't ever thought about it except for purchases from ebay. Heck! I use it so that might be another way to give anyone assurance.

By the way for the record the EIN: for usAHSA is 11-3718544 for tax purposes and it is a non-profit for the benefit of equestrian sport clubs.

War Admiral
Dec. 23, 2005, 05:43 AM
Oh y'all, this is great!! Snowbird, thank you so very much for coordinating the financial end. I agree about red for the wristbands.

Avery and I will have the petition available to sign at his art opening and we'll take donations as well, and send them along.

I'll try to get the web site up and running over the holiday weekend, and Snowbird, I'll link it back to your site if that's OK.

Thanks so very much everybody for all your support!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Fairview Horse Center
Dec. 23, 2005, 06:05 AM
Someone really needs to edit the petition to say that it will not function with the AOL browser.

War Admiral
Dec. 23, 2005, 06:11 AM
I'll put that on the web site when I get it up and running.

To their credit, most people seem to be e-mailing me when they have probs. We get it sorted out eventually.

llt
Dec. 23, 2005, 08:45 AM
I am the "wayward soul" who made the comment that closed the "OTHER" thread. I extend my apologies to those who were hurt by what I said, and assure you it was not intended to be hurtful or to make light of a terrible moment, but an observation as to how I would feel in that situation. I would hope that the bad timing and taste that I had shown would not keep someone from signing a petition with as much importance as the No Reinstatement petition based on a reactionary comment from me, and I would also hope that people who had no intention of signing not use my comment as their reason for not signing. If you honestly feel that his contribution either as a friend, or a horseman, or a peer are so great that the truths of the past should be ignored, fine, support him with your own thoughts and actions. Again, I am sorry and remorseful for any pain caused by my comment, even though such pain was unintentional. If it is convenient to use my words as partial justification for his reinstatement, there is obviously nothing I can do about it.

MBS
Dec. 23, 2005, 09:51 AM
Wow what did you say to make the thread Disappear? I have never seen one disappear before. PM me

Farside54
Dec. 23, 2005, 11:28 AM
TB or Not TB?

An amazing post...you articulated quite well my thoughts on the matter. Throughout our lives, we are often asked to make moral decisions based on specific events. I have a hard time reconciling customers who think that PV should be forgiven his crimes with his actual actions. Sometimes one has to "dig deep" to take the moral path. It can make you uncomfortable, unpopular, and change your life relationships. I agree with you, however. Thanks for such a great post!

Zorro
Dec. 24, 2005, 07:26 PM
We're at 756 tonight, please keep passing on the link to the petition. With 13,000 HJ members, I hope we can get alot more signatures after the holidays. Speaking of: Happy Holidays!

Snowbird
Dec. 24, 2005, 08:28 PM
That's super Zorro and I expect by Monday to have the Pay Pal Link up for anyone who wants a red "No-Reinstatement bracelet" or to make a donation to the fund. I can be emailed or phoned for credit cards and the address is on the usAHSA.org web site.

Thanks to Harry I've looked up the procedures and we should be able to take the credit cards or direct withdrawal through PayPal. I've made a donation button so it should be tax deductable. If you make a deduction which is tax deductible you cannot get anything back like the bracelet which has a value.

I hope you all haven't forgotten the idea of tying red ribbons at every show you attend to let people know the project has great public "grassroots" support.

TWF
Dec. 25, 2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by BAC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jetsmom:
This is kind of off topic a little, but one of the things that I found so horrific, is that when the authorities were "on" to what was going on, they heard about a horse that was "scheduled" to be killed. They sent people to stake out the barn and videotape what went on. The video showed a horse having his legs being broken with a crowbar and turned loose so it would look like an accident. THe authorities did not intervene, because they needed to actually catch them filing an insurance claim in order to get them for more than a misdemeanor. After the "perps" left, a vet came out and put the horse down which was truly suffering and going into shock. This video was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, and I think of it everytime the name of one of those involved is mentioned. I find it somehow equally troubling that what they did to that horse was allowed to happen because in the eyes of the law, torturing an animal is somehow a lesser crime than ripping off an insurance company. That seems so wrong to me.
Did anyone else see the video to which I am referring?

I didn't see the tape but I believe this was Streetwise (f/k/a Innisfree).

I'll sign the petition too, I don't believe in forgiveness when it comes to cruelty to animals. Everyone involved in these murders should have received lifetime bans in addition to their jail sentences. Its very disappointing to hear that many of the "big names" in our sport continue to befriend PV and do business with him. Whether a petition will do any good or not we owe it to these horses to try.

I admire you buryinghill2, especially since PV was such a good friend, too bad there are not more people in this business with the courage to turn their backs on these murderers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I remember Innisfree (circa 1985) as a yearling since I showed my first warmblood crosses in that era. He was correct and a legend as a young horse. I was horrified to find he was the same horse Streetwise that was murdered! If you ever saw him....you'd never forget him...he was a brilliant chestnut with four knee high white stockings....which make the quote from jetsmom so horrifying. NO reinstatement!!!! Stand up for the defenseless horses that are the heart and soul of our sport for the majority of us.

This runs concurrent to another thread about felons who are petitioning the Federal Court to "allow" them to go back to the horses industry after pleading GUILTY to crimes which landed them a jail sentence of 15-18 months and which they plead guilty to pay restitution of over $52,000 instead of facing the court and only three of their victims....there appear to be many more...and as I say...you are not just a little guilty when you plead guilty to Federal charges!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/7076024331/m/270206967/p/1

Premeditated actions are not simple mistakes! Negligence is NOT a mistake!! This industry needs to be vigilant to protect the membership and especially the horses!! We do not owe them a living...and certainly NOT on the blood of our horses!

War Admiral..thanks for the link

Please sign the "NO REINSTATEMENT" petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html


Joan Watt

http://tellwynd.com/ (http://Tellwynd)

Snowbird
Dec. 26, 2005, 01:23 PM
I think it would a great news story that the majority of the people in the horse business had had enough and they want the Federation to ban all convicted horse killers from being a particpant in our shows.

I think the story would better if we also took a firm stand against child molesters and con-man who steal horses buy keeping the money. Wouldn't it be a great story if the people in a sport demanded reformation against the criminal element?

I thinkl the sport would look like a safe place for families if they knew we wanted to protect them from the criminals who would steal their money and kill horses to defraud the Insurance Companies.

Boberry
Dec. 27, 2005, 07:42 AM
You can also wite your congressperson at: http://www.house.gov/writerep/ to help the effort.

SGray
Dec. 27, 2005, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
That's super Zorro and I expect by Monday to have the Pay Pal Link up for anyone who wants a red "No-Reinstatement bracelet" or to make a donation to the fund. I can be emailed or phoned for credit cards and the address is on the usAHSA.org web site.....

that's great - I didn't want to take one of SNL's bracelets as I am not out on any of those circuits where they really need to be seen but I would like to a)show my support and b)wear it to shows so that I can explain to others the significance

ss3777
Dec. 27, 2005, 02:38 PM
that's great - I didn't want to take one of SNL's bracelets as I am not out on any of those circuits where they really need to be seen but I would like to a)show my support and b)wear it to shows so that I can explain to others the significance


Sounds like a good plan to me!

SGray
Dec. 29, 2005, 10:26 AM
WA - I just sent the link to the petition to dressage friends with request that they forward to any that would have interest

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 29, 2005, 12:30 PM
So far, this petition has less than one percent of USEF's total membership signing it, and many of the signatures do not inlcude membership numbers. It is looking like a well intended but futile effort.

Snowbird
Dec. 29, 2005, 03:06 PM
Now Harry it's not that bad! There are less than 20,000 total members of all the Forums for all disciplines. There are only about 25,000 in the Hunter and Jumper disciplines combined. Generally, I think the statistical average is 10 times the numbers of replies for all those that agree and ony 1% for all that buy which would mean here to put your name out front.

So we're on the glory road already because we can subtract te 4/5000 riders that are at Wellington.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 29, 2005, 03:41 PM
Yes, I doubt you could get a Wellington or an Ocala participant to sign.

Midge
Dec. 29, 2005, 04:26 PM
Well, Harry, you'd be wrong about that.

I also think that since the petition is not widely known outside of this BB, it's not drawing from the entire membership. It's not like it was sent out with the latest edition of Equestrian.

I also think one's decision to sign or not sign an on line petition would not necessarily refect their opinion on the matter.

Fairview Horse Center
Dec. 29, 2005, 04:56 PM
Well, I would be happy to sign, but no space to down load another browser on my hard drive at the moment. So if any of you would be willing to add my name Darlyn E Sandgren USEF #305696 for me I would be happy. Also a member of USDF, AHS, ISR/OLD, AWS, and BWP/NAD is in the mail.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 29, 2005, 05:06 PM
Midge, I have signed the petition, I am not a USEF member so I have no idea if it will have any bearing. I have also brought it to the attention of all of the people where my wife rides, lesson children included, along with a description of what happened at the time.

Snowbird
Dec. 29, 2005, 05:25 PM
Harry I haven't figured out if we all were just fools or whatever. I remember those grass rolling outside hunt courses and at JET the horse had to walk shoulder deep in water to get to it. The horses today are like hot house orchids. In our time it was run and jump and ride off your eye.

How about the course around the pond in Johnson Park for the Middlesex show? I don't know Harry but if you matched our days against these days I bet we'd win the class. When we were prime against what's prime today I'd love to see that.

I'm waiting to hear from Paypal regarding using their account system. I already have a business account with them. I need to see how we'll know if someone uses it who they are and their address for the return.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 29, 2005, 05:48 PM
Snowbird, however fondly we might remember those days, I don't think we would stand a chance!!!!! The horses of today are much nicer than what we had, many of us would just take something from the pasture to show, with no conditioning or training. None of our horses would have brought ten cents in insurance money.

Duffy
Dec. 29, 2005, 06:25 PM
While I don't go to FL in the winters, I will get this petitioned noticed by us "little people" who stay in VA for the winters.

I'm counting on those who venture to the sunny south to do the same at Ocala and Wellington.

Duffy
Dec. 29, 2005, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Well, I would be happy to sign, but no space to down load another browser on my hard drive at the moment. So if any of you would be willing to add my name Darlyn E Sandgren USEF #305696 for me I would be happy. Also a member of USDF, AHS, ISR/OLD, AWS, and BWP/NAD is in the mail.

Darlyn- it requires an email address to be added...

Snowbird
Dec. 29, 2005, 07:06 PM
Oh! Harry that is so true. We had $5.00 longshots but they were brave. They had heart not just a pretty face. I remember when Vic Goines was coaching Pat Byrne on Eastside Drive and she's gallop into the ring at a dea run to psych out the other riders. Old Sully had my daughter jump the ingate on the way in to the ring with our Sir.James. He's stand around looking like a refuge from the slaughter house but boy could he ever jump.

Fairview Horse Center
Dec. 29, 2005, 07:46 PM
Duffy, if you are willing to do it for me, I would be grateful fairviewhorsectr@aol.com

thanks

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 29, 2005, 08:21 PM
And some lovely horses you have on that website Fairview! Would love to see more pictures of Denali.

Fairview Horse Center
Dec. 29, 2005, 09:07 PM
Why thank you harryjohnson. We think he is pretty special. Don't have any current photos, but at the moment he is in a good growth stage/balance, and he still looks pretty much the same.

Duffy
Dec. 30, 2005, 06:02 AM
Darlyn - done! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 30, 2005, 08:44 AM
OMG!!! Hey gang....Your next platinum CD is posted on the PV thread. This guy is GOOD.

Snowbird
Dec. 30, 2005, 01:48 PM
I think it's a great idea if they don't want a bracelet they might want the CD. Who knows some genius could spin off a whole TV Saga tied to the New Jersy Sopranos.

Fairview Horse Center
Dec. 30, 2005, 01:59 PM
Thanks Duffy! My email confirmation says I am #800 woo hoo!

Duffy
Dec. 30, 2005, 02:01 PM
You're welcome - I was happy to do it! Sorry I didn't hit the "confirmation" button til just a bit ago. But, that made you the even #800, so I guess it worked out fine! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Dec. 30, 2005, 10:30 PM
Just bumping up, we need to keep this going

Duffy
Dec. 31, 2005, 07:16 PM
Can people sign a printed out copy? I have some friends who would like to sign, but do not have email addresses. Also, I was thinking about bringing a printed out copy to shows for signatures...Or, should I copy/paste out the "online" part?

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 31, 2005, 07:45 PM
That is a question for War Admiral and Snowbird, but I don't see why not, as long as you send it to the proper place.

Snowbird
Jan. 1, 2006, 10:05 AM
Well I will be at the Convention in Cincinnati. Really sad we didn't make it to New Orleans love that City of free spirits and non-conformists.

If you would like to send me a copy of your letters and War admiral a copy of the Petition I will personally hand deliver them all to the Board of Directors who traditionally ignore Petitions because the people who sign cannot be cross examined.

I will be ther and invite anyone else who like to join me to come so we can explain our sincere deep feelings to them personally.

You can send to my email as posted an the profile but I will need full names and addresses and hopefully USEF Member Numbers.

Yes Harry, and since the office might lose papers they want to have circulated I would ask for a hard copy or email I can print out. I find it most efficient to assume the direct approach to the Board of Directors. Especially those who want to include people killers, teachers of how to properly break a leg and any other tutors for how to damage or abuse a horse. Including but not limited to those who defraud the members of the industry by overcharging for horses and not respecting the rights of the owners.

Sannois
Jan. 1, 2006, 10:10 AM
Forgive me I am really late to this thread, but I was under the impression that the people convicted were permanantly suspended from ant and all AHSA or what ever its called now, shows! Where do I sign ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Snowbird
Jan. 1, 2006, 10:12 AM
http://new.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

Never miss any opportunity to do a good thing.

big dawg
Jan. 1, 2006, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Sannois:
Forgive me I am really late to this thread, but I was under the impression that the people convicted were permanantly suspended from ant and all AHSA or what ever its called now, shows! Where do I sign ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

You need to be a USEF member and be able to read the rules...

big dawg
Jan. 1, 2006, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
That's super Zorro and I expect by Monday to have the Pay Pal Link up for anyone who wants a red "No-Reinstatement bracelet" or to make a donation to the fund. I can be emailed or phoned for credit cards and the address is on the usAHSA.org web site.

Thanks to Harry I've looked up the procedures and we should be able to take the credit cards or direct withdrawal through PayPal. I've made a donation button so it should be tax deductable. If you make a deduction which is tax deductible you cannot get anything back like the bracelet which has a value.

I hope you all haven't forgotten the idea of tying red ribbons at every show you attend to let people know the project has great public "grassroots" support.

who gets the money you are collecting? or is this just a profit venture for you?

Snowbird
Jan. 1, 2006, 01:22 PM
Dear Big Dawg, fortunately the vast majority of people are unllike you.

We are honest, sincere and well intentioned. I think everyone who knows me realizes there is 100% accountability for every penny and I never even deduct my personal costs when I make an effort to support a good grassroots program to accomplish a general good thing.I know there is no situation where anyone has ever believed I cheated them in any way.

Aside from my personal feelings about your statement it will be handled by our non-profit corporation which is a 501(c)(3) and which is bound under Federal Law through the IRS not to cheat with donations.

Although some may think they can use a non-profit as a personal bank, I don't! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 1, 2006, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
Forgive me I am really late to this thread, but I was under the impression that the people convicted were permanantly suspended from ant and all AHSA or what ever its called now, shows! Where do I sign ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

You need to be a USEF member and be able to read the rules... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do not need to be a member of the USEF to sign the petition if that is what you meant.

ss3777
Jan. 1, 2006, 04:54 PM
Did anyone else wonder about the ad on page 9 of the COTH 12/23/05 issue? Full page color ad; North Run and the Ethel Walker School congratulate Julie Welles. They note a special thanks to several folks including PV. Why would a school thank a horse killer???? YIKES!

Boberry
Jan. 1, 2006, 05:20 PM
What I have found is that most people simply do not know about PV's history and assume people of his nature are not active in the horse industry. Please forward the petition. Education and awareness is needed to defend the ethical integrity of competitive riding. Don't let the Big "Fawg's" fool you!

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 1, 2006, 06:00 PM
I think in the case of Ethel Walker School, they are well aware of who Paul Valliere is, their riding director is a former student of his.

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 1, 2006, 06:11 PM
Don't let the Big "Fawg's" fool you!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Boberry
Jan. 1, 2006, 06:39 PM
For the school they may be taking the director's "word" for everything equine. I'll write them and ask.

Boberry
Jan. 1, 2006, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Showponymom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Don't let the Big "Fawg's" fool you!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the Air
Jan. 1, 2006, 06:48 PM
I spoke to an Ethel Walker alum today and asked her about it. She was appalled to say the least, but did say that the head person teaching there came from PV's barn.

big dawg
Jan. 1, 2006, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Showponymom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
Forgive me I am really late to this thread, but I was under the impression that the people convicted were permanantly suspended from ant and all AHSA or what ever its called now, shows! Where do I sign ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

You need to be a USEF member and be able to read the rules... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do not need to be a member of the USEF to sign the petition if that is what you meant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but if you are not a Member, you have no standing to be heard...just another animal rights terrorist for all the Hearing Committee will know. Personally, if you aren't a member you have no say.

big dawg
Jan. 1, 2006, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
Dear Big Dawg, fortunately the vast majority of people are unllike you.

We are honest, sincere and well intentioned. I think everyone who knows me realizes there is 100% accountability for every penny and I never even deduct my personal costs when I make an effort to support a good grassroots program to accomplish a general good thing.I know there is no situation where anyone has ever believed I cheated them in any way.

Aside from my personal feelings about your statement it will be handled by our non-profit corporation which is a 501(c)(3) and which is bound under Federal Law through the IRS not to cheat with donations.

Although some may think they can use a non-profit as a personal bank, I don't! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I didn't make a "statement". I just asked two legitimate questions. I have not seen any info as to the name of the 501 [c] [3] organization nor its tax ID #...so I asked if you were making a profit selling these...Why are you so hostile...are you afraid I assumed you had something to hide? I think that anyone paying you money should know the details of the "charity" you represent...and if you have nothing to hide you would gladly give it.

big dawg
Jan. 1, 2006, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by TWF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BAC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jetsmom:
This is kind of off topic a little, but one of the things that I found so horrific, is that when the authorities were "on" to what was going on, they heard about a horse that was "scheduled" to be killed. They sent people to stake out the barn and videotape what went on. The video showed a horse having his legs being broken with a crowbar and turned loose so it would look like an accident. THe authorities did not intervene, because they needed to actually catch them filing an insurance claim in order to get them for more than a misdemeanor. After the "perps" left, a vet came out and put the horse down which was truly suffering and going into shock. This video was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, and I think of it everytime the name of one of those involved is mentioned. I find it somehow equally troubling that what they did to that horse was allowed to happen because in the eyes of the law, torturing an animal is somehow a lesser crime than ripping off an insurance company. That seems so wrong to me.
Did anyone else see the video to which I am referring?

I didn't see the tape but I believe this was Streetwise (f/k/a Innisfree).

I'll sign the petition too, I don't believe in forgiveness when it comes to cruelty to animals. Everyone involved in these murders should have received lifetime bans in addition to their jail sentences. Its very disappointing to hear that many of the "big names" in our sport continue to befriend PV and do business with him. Whether a petition will do any good or not we owe it to these horses to try.

I admire you buryinghill2, especially since PV was such a good friend, too bad there are not more people in this business with the courage to turn their backs on these murderers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I remember Innisfree (circa 1985) as a yearling since I showed my first warmblood crosses in that era. He was correct and a legend as a young horse. I was horrified to find he was the same horse Streetwise that was murdered! If you ever saw him....you'd never forget him...he was a brilliant chestnut with four knee high white stockings....which make the quote from jetsmom so horrifying. NO reinstatement!!!! Stand up for the defenseless horses that are the heart and soul of our sport for the majority of us.

This runs concurrent to another thread about felons who are petitioning the Federal Court to "allow" them to go back to the horses industry after pleading GUILTY to crimes which landed them a jail sentence of 15-18 months and which they plead guilty to pay restitution of over $52,000 instead of facing the court and only three of their victims....there appear to be many more...and as I say...you are not just a little guilty when you plead guilty to Federal charges!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/7076024331/m/270206967/p/1

Premeditated actions are not simple mistakes! Negligence is NOT a mistake!! This industry needs to be vigilant to protect the membership and especially the horses!! We do not owe them a living...and certainly NOT on the blood of our horses!

War Admiral..thanks for the link

Please sign the "NO REINSTATEMENT" petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html


Joan Watt

http://tellwynd.com/ (http://Tellwynd) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So why aren't you working on reforming the Rules instead of trying to go against the rules?

Boberry
Jan. 1, 2006, 07:01 PM
Snowbird has clearly stated the tax id# and the 501(c)(3) info. BD, you portray yourself as a troll.

hiddenlake
Jan. 1, 2006, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:

By the way for the record the EIN: for usAHSA is 11-3718544 for tax purposes and it is a non-profit for the benefit of equestrian sport clubs.

Oh yeah, Snowbird's hiding all right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Snowbird
Jan. 1, 2006, 07:14 PM
I didn't make a "statement". I just asked two legitimate questions. I have not seen any info as to the name of the 501 [c] [3] organization nor its tax ID #...so I asked if you were making a profit selling these...Why are you so hostile...are you afraid I assumed you had something to hide? I think that anyone paying you money should know the details of the "charity" you represent...and if you have nothing to hide you would gladly give it.

Dear child don't even try to play that game with me. Do you seriously believe that anyone couldn't see through your question as a implication of common guilt. If so, you are very unsophisticated and should be cautious of your friends.

The Non-Profit Corporation is usAHSA otherwise registered as U.S.A. Horse Shows Association, Inc. It is incorporated in New Jersey and it's Ein is: 11-3718544. It'd IRS category is as an equestrian sport club which makes it legal for us to run horse shows and sanction horse shows more legally than the USEF which is only an Educational Corporation and cannot itself run Equine Competitions as a Regulatory body. We are a National Affiliate of the Federation.

Thank you for the opportunity for free publicity here on the BB and please write the tax number down so you can deduct your donation when you make one to any of our purposes. Would you like me to email you an application for a sponsorship; is there some business you would like to advertise with an affiliation?

We do accept Affiliations or membership from any legitimate business but not if operated by a convicted felon however. I guess that my limit is within our mission to improve the quality of equine sport activity. You would have found out this information yourself with just a little effort.

Snowbird
Jan. 1, 2006, 07:30 PM
So why aren't you working on reforming the Rules instead of trying to go against the rules?

Big Dawg, I think you're really a little "chiwawa", a lot of noise and no substance doing your master's bidding. If you want to see a big mean dawg, I have one.

We're not going against the rules we're insisting they be enforced. The rules are there Article 706 Sections A and M. They define anything that is not in the best intrests of the sport and the Federation. Harboring felons that killed horses for money is hardly a benefit, don't you think? Further the CEO can suspend any suspects until there is a hearing. The problem is you think your friends have the hearing rigged and PV is going to skip right through. Well, we'll see I suppose whose right you or the "little people".

If he does; do you suppose the USOC and the Commerce Committee of the US Congress could be far behind following the trail of blood?

Better play nice.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 1, 2006, 08:43 PM
Snowbird, where did all of the songs go?

Seal Harbor
Jan. 1, 2006, 11:30 PM
They are on the other PV thread.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/7076024331/m/333202818/p/38

ss3777
Jan. 2, 2006, 04:44 AM
Please forward the petition


I sent it to Ethel Walker this morning. What a crazy thing for a school to do...placing an ad in a worldwide publication that thanks a horse killer!!! YIKES!! Definitely a value system I would want young ladies to emulate. Ok class, today we are going to learn how to go to jail, or even better how to reduce your sentence.

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 2, 2006, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by ss3777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please forward the petition


I sent it to Ethel Walker this morning. What a crazy thing for a school to do...placing an ad in a worldwide publication that thanks a horse killer!!! YIKES!! Definitely a value system I would want young ladies to emulate. Ok class, today we are going to learn how to go to jail, or even better how to reduce your sentence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget that you can work around sanctions that were set down and still make a boat load of money while doing it!

War Admiral
Jan. 2, 2006, 08:30 AM
Sorry I've been away for a while guys. Believe it or not I'm slammed with work!!

To answer a few questions:

1 - YOU DO NOT have to be a USEF member to sign. However - putting only your first name means we will have to delete your signature, so please provide your FULL name and an e-mail address.

2 - If USEF reinstates these people anyway, this thing is going to the USOC. So I'd love to see signatures from ALL areas of the equestrian community, even if you're just a pleasure rider. Please keep crossposting.

3 - Yes, PEOPLE CAN SIGN PRINTED COPIES . Send them to Snowbird or me - we can work out the details of getting them together later.

4 - Finally, your thought for the day. Has YOUR trainer signed it?? My current one has; but interestingly, two of my former ones have not. As a client, this would frankly make me a little bit nervous. It strikes me that trainers who do not sign are basically saying "I reserve to myself the right to kill horses for insurance money at some future time..."

Showpony - Don't just send it to the equestrian staff at Ethel Walker. Go all the way to the top. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Many, MANY thanks to all y'all for your support!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Seahorsefarmtobe
Jan. 2, 2006, 08:54 AM
Good on you, WA! I just discovered this thread and signed the petition.

War Admiral
Jan. 2, 2006, 08:57 AM
GREAT!!! Thank you so much Seahorse! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 2, 2006, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by War Admiral:
Showpony - Don't just send it to the equestrian staff at Ethel Walker. Go all the way to the top. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Sorry that wasn't me, I was responding to their post, I believe it was ss3777

War Admiral
Jan. 2, 2006, 09:13 AM
Ooops sorry, I'm rushing thru a bunch of stuff & should read for comprehension more often!

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 2, 2006, 09:21 AM
Anyone writing to Ethel Walker School should include not only the fact that the person in question contracted to kill horses but that he was also guilty of fraud.

Snowbird
Jan. 2, 2006, 09:26 AM
Anyone who is late with any papers I leave for Cincinnati on Tuesday, will be there to the bitter end. You can fax or overnight mail to me to the Hotel or meet me at the hotel if and I hope there will be some moral support for this cantankerous old lady I hate sitting alone like the bullseye on a target.

The name for the Registration at the hotel is: Vikki Karcher Siegel....Snowbird Acres Farm.
My Cell: is 908-887-4800 I usually have it on.

I will take notes from the meetings and post when I get back. But, I'll need a day to sleep off the traveling.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 2, 2006, 09:31 AM
Thank you Snowbird and good luck there.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 2, 2006, 09:37 AM
War Admiral - if you go in and edit your first post on this thread, you can change the title to include something like

Please sign this petition to stop USEF from reinstating membership to convicted horse killers

And make sure there is a link in the first post.

I bet a lot more people will find this thread.

ss3777
Jan. 2, 2006, 10:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by War Admiral:
Showpony - Don't just send it to the equestrian staff at Ethel Walker. Go all the way to the top.


Does anyone know anyone "at the top"? It would be a better received if there was some sort of a connection with someone from the school. I would imagine anyone one on the board would be horrified to learn that a place of higher learning spends money (I love COTH but their ads are not free!!) thanking a convicted horse killer. I am more than willing to be the messenger but I am hoping to find the best way to get the message heard.

Thanks,

Snowbird
Jan. 2, 2006, 10:38 AM
Harry I saved them in another file and sent them off to Ireland where I expect a composer friend of mine will put them to music and send us back the music files.

When I get them I'll post links to them so you can all hear the finished product. Harry any leads for a producer and director for our off broadway musical. Could be a winner!

I've got a few candidates to play Mr.Ed. We could use some names for the horse chorus and the dancing horses. What a shame we don't still have Walt Disney to manage this project.

War Admiral
Jan. 2, 2006, 10:39 AM
Looks like their faculty-staff directory is online, and most of them have e-mail addresses. Hint. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.ethelwalker.org/Page656.aspx

ss3777
Jan. 2, 2006, 04:32 PM
Here is what I e-mailed the majority of the Ethel Walker School faculty:


Dear faculty members,

I am writing to you to let you know that there was an ad published in an international equestrian magazine that included a thank you to a convicted horse killer (Paul Valliere) and this ad had the Ethel Walker School name written on the top. The magazine is The Chronicle of the Horse and it was in the 12/23/05 addition. This ad was a full page color ad. It was an ad to congratulate Julie Welles (perhaps an Ethel Walker student?) on her equestrian accomplishments. Here are the facts that concern Mr. Valliere’s arrest and conviction:

http://www.ienn.com/break/mayjune97/indict.htm

Here is the petition that concerned equestrians are signing:

http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html


It was with great surprise that I read this ad and could only conclude that Ethel Walker approved of Mr. Valliere and his actions. I hope that perhaps the payment and approval of this ad was made only be a few people associated with Ethel Walker and not a vote of support by the whole school. But I may never know. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Sincerely,

Susan Smith

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 2, 2006, 04:47 PM
Susan,
Please let us know when you hear back from any of them. I sure you will hear from them. It was very well written and well documented. Thanks

ss3777
Jan. 2, 2006, 05:44 PM
Thanks Showponymom,

I will keep everyone updated. Julie Welles is a senior at Ethel Walker and a story about her is on the Ethel Walker website:

https://www.ethelwalker.org/Page598.aspx?showcontent=4393&display=24

I also found this information on the faculty web page:

Deborah D. Welles
Assistant Director of Riding
Admissions Officer
B.A., St. Lawrence University
At Walker's since 1996

Richard A. Caldwell
Director of Riding
B.S., Baptist College
M.Ed. in progress, University of Virginia
At Walker’s since 1996

Linda Kossick Langmeier
Head Riding Instructor
At Walker's since 2001

I have not been able to find the board or trustees' contact information. I will keep trying. Any help would be appreciated.

SGray
Jan. 3, 2006, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by ss3777:
.... Ok class, today we are going to learn how to go to jail, or even better how to reduce your sentence.

an elective course

big dawg
Jan. 3, 2006, 10:01 AM
The USEF won't honor petitions from people who are not members...you are wasting your time getting signatures from "illegal immigrants", so to speak...they have no voice in USEF rules.
No way to prove they are not bogus signatures. You folks must be from Chicago, where dead folks vote!

SGray
Jan. 3, 2006, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
The USEF won't honor petitions from people who are not members...you are wasting your time getting signatures from "illegal immigrants", so to speak...they have no voice in USEF rules.
No way to prove they are not bogus signatures. You folks must be from Chicago, where dead folks vote!

ahhh, but as the petition is also to be sent to the USOC then all signatures from US citizens would be relevant -- -- and if sent to FEI then international........

Snowbird
Jan. 3, 2006, 10:13 AM
Guess you'd know about that Big Dawg isn't that your home town?

Maybe! But the USOC and the Commerce Committee of the Senate won't care if the USEF ignores them. Government just want everyone's opinion. Lot's of honorable people don't belong to USEF for this very reason and maybe if we get rid of the double standards for felons and honest folks they will join.

LE
Jan. 3, 2006, 10:13 AM
Ok, I'm going to ask this INNOCENTLY, but put my flame suit on regardless.

What will saying No to reinstatment prevent these people from? Showing?

It is under my understanding that people accused of hiring people to kill their horses for fraud are still allowed to own horses. They still have clients and these clients still show. My understanding is that these people who have been caught and prosecuted have only been prosecuted for insurance fraud, and as of the mid-ninties when this exploded in the media, it was quoted by someone on the news saying at that time, it was 'not illegal to kill your pet. Only illegal to fraud an insurance company'.

Have these rules changed? Have these people continued to fraud insurance companies/kill horses for money?

I think saying no to reinstatment is not going to stop these people from owning a horse. I think what your energies should/could be focused on is the bill that is going to congress about making killing animals a CRIME. THen, you would be able to stop these people(well, at least have more leverage) in owning/being around horses, thus they could not do that to an animal again.

I just have to ask, and sorry, I don't have time to wade through the thirty pages here, so if this has been answered already, could you just provide the links?

I guess it bothers me when people are so intent on telling others to sign something that says 'don't let them back in', when they never really left.

Also, there are probably many other people who are STILL competing, who have done this, and just didn't get caught.

Just the journalist in my showing there are two sides to every situation, and that while your intentions are AWESOME, i think focusing them towards something that will prevent people who have killed animals in the past/hired killers, from OWNING horses will be more crippling to them, then saying no to allowing them to be on horse show grounds.

Just some thoughts

Seven
Jan. 3, 2006, 10:53 AM
LE, I haven't followed the whole thread either, but changing focus on new laws would not serve the same purpose as the petition. No law now enacted would be retroactive to cover the actions the petitioners are against. Rather, the petition to continue the ban against individuals who may seek reinstatement is just about the only thing that concerned horse/animal people can do.

The criminal justice system has already been exhausted in this case, so excluding those involved from our "members only" club is (probably) the best way to have our personal convictions reflected in our public actions - i.e., it's not okay to intentionally kill horses for profit. No, we can't stop them from doing many of the things other free and private citizens can do (like owning horses and operating stables), but we can, as members of an exclusive "club" say that what was done is reprehensible and because of it, those convicted have given up their privilege of membership with us.

Yes, new laws are probably over due. And after this petition is successful that would be another good way to focus energy. But for now, excluding people who can't conform to the standards set by the membership is more important since it is an immediate threat to the integrity of the organization.

Also true is that others have done the same crimes and were not caught. But we can't exclude them on rumor and supposition.

The USEF is a private club that can (and should) regulate its members and the petition is just a group of horse people standing together to say that those who participated in the crimes outlined don't need to be members of our organization.

hiddenlake
Jan. 3, 2006, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by LE:

I just have to ask, and sorry, I don't have time to wade through the thirty pages here, so if this has been answered already, could you just provide the links?
<snip>
Just the journalist in my showing there are two sides to every situation...

Okay, no flames for your comments, except for the fact that you don't have time to read the thread and you expect others to do your information gathering for you. I get really irritated when I see "I don't have time" posts. Are you saying your time is too important but it's okay if we take the time to post links to make it easier? And what do you want us to post links to? Hope that's not how you engage in your journalistic endeavors. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Okay, rant over. Go back and read. Then post.

Of course many of us think it would be wonderful to be able to stop horse killers from ever owning again. Personally, I would squeal like a pig with delight.

Yes, we can engage in an organized effort to change the animal protection laws outside of the USEF arena. However, the posters here are trying to address the one issue they can influence NOW---and that's PV's membership in USEF. Speaking up now is how many members are saying that PV should not be openly supported by an organization that purports to represent the welfare of horses above all else.

You're darn right that hitting them in the wallet is the way to go, but the first step is to address his potential reinstatement because of 1)timing and 2)control, such as it is. Better to light a single candle, right?

SGray
Jan. 3, 2006, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by LE:
....Have these rules changed? Have these people continued to fraud insurance companies/kill horses for money?.....

in short - yes, the rules have been changed (see rules that took effect 12/05) and address many of the 'work-arounds' that PV used to dance around the edges of the suspension

Snowbird
Jan. 3, 2006, 11:37 AM
Obviously the rules exist because PV was suspended. The issue of reinstatement comes under Article 706 Sections A and M particularly. It is there already.

The issue is not rules it is selective enforcement of rules that exist.

Midge
Jan. 3, 2006, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by ss3777:

I also found this information on the faculty web page:

Linda Kossick Langmeier
Head Riding Instructor
At Walker's since 2001


I beleieve Linda Kossick is a former student of PV.

Vandy
Jan. 3, 2006, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by War Admiral:
4 - Finally, your thought for the day. Has YOUR trainer signed it?? My current one has; but interestingly, two of my former ones have not. As a client, this would frankly make me a little bit nervous. It strikes me that trainers who do not sign are basically saying "I reserve to myself the right to kill horses for insurance money at some future time..."

WA, I appreciate what you are doing, but with all due respect, I find the above statement offensive. My decision not to sign the petition does not in ANY way suggest I approve of PV's actions, nor that I would ever under any circumstances consider harming a horse for any reason. I know there are others who feel the same way as I do.

A word of unsolicited advice: Please do not generalize like this. In doing so, you may well alienate people who in many ways agree with you.

LE
Jan. 3, 2006, 04:37 PM
Well written Seven! Thank you for expressing your side with an eloquence that helped me hear you.

Hiddenlake--you bring up a valid point. While I'm not a journalist, I did study journalism and I WILL read these pages, but I've had the brutal headache of weather shifting and possibally my sinus infection has not totally left the building http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My thoughts were brought to a case here in Canada, and why I am hoping the bill for injury animals will become a crime. About five years ago, two men were found and charged(the case is old now, so I don't remember the charge) for not only skinning a cat/tourturing it alive, but capturing this on video. The story just infuriated me. People who do this will move on to humans. It's a scientific fact.

I believe it is known as Bill 112 or 121, but the problem with passing this bill is one the horse community has stalled, and with good reason. Defining abuse is tricky. We use spurs and crops to get horses to listen. 99.9 % of us use them correctly. But, that .1% of us who don't can make this bill murder for us if it IS passed, someone sees us using a stick and whammo, we're charged with criminal charges.

So, until the kinks in this bill are ironed out, I can definetly see your reasons for keeping these people out of your shows/off your show properties.

Thank you for the clarification, and I guess there is just the optimistic side of me that thinks 'maybe these people have learnt their lesson? Maybe they are truely sorry?"

I see another thread here about the rules of fraud, so I'm off to read that too.

Snowbird
Jan. 3, 2006, 04:48 PM
Vandy what would be your reason for not signing? No offense intended but I am curious so we know what the reasoning is that doesn't support the non-reinstatement and yet doesn't support the crimes themselves.

hiddenlake
Jan. 3, 2006, 04:59 PM
LE---two things:

1)thanks for taking my rant so professionally. As you can tell, it's a pet peeve of mine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
2)Z-pack. I get sinus infections all the time since my second child was born. They've gotten so bad sometimes that they've moved into my teeth and forced me to have root canals.The Z-pack was the only thing that worked. And use the saline solution mentioned on the other thread, sudafed, and lots of water.

Vandy
Jan. 3, 2006, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
Vandy what would be your reason for not signing? No offense intended but I am curious so we know what the reasoning is that doesn't support the non-reinstatement and yet doesn't support the crimes themselves.
Snowbird, back on page 22 I posted as did a few others about not signing the petition. In a nutshell, having ridden with PV years ago, I don't wish to actively support him, yet feel uncomfortable with actively participating in his persectution.

I can certainly respect the sentiments of those who sign the petition, but IMO saying that trainers who don't sign it are implying they plan to kill horses themselves for insurance money is way off base.

Snowbird
Jan. 3, 2006, 07:04 PM
Snowbird, back on page 22 I posted as did a few others about not signing the petition. In a nutshell, having ridden with PV years ago, I don't wish to actively support him, yet feel uncomfortable with actively participating in his persectution.

I can certainly respect the sentiments of those who sign the petition, but IMO saying that trainers who don't sign it are implying they plan to kill horses themselves for insurance money is way off base.

Ok! Vandy I can understand that but I don't see calling it a persecution. I see a talented man, be he a politicial, a brilliant innovative thinker; a great musician or a physicist. No matter how great the ingenuity or the talent it does not warrant breaking our covenant with God to be the caretaker of the critters.

If we tolerate such from someone then we bring down the whole of civilization. It's no different than tolerating children who kill their parents or parents who kill their children. There is a point in time when our gentleness is the cause our own defeat.

I could love someone, I could admire what they do well but I would find it hard to excuse them for such a petty mundane evil as killing an animal for money.I don't think we should kill except to survive. Did PV need to kill for his survival?

Once we accept euthaniasia for money how far behind would a human be for the same reason? The Menendez boys killed their parents for their money. If you kill to save face, to build ego that is so shallow a reason I can't accept it. I really believe we need to draw the line and just not approving is weak if that person is rewarded as he says for his crime with more business, better business. The why does he need to be a judge? Why does he need to be accepted?
Money was his master and he needs to suffer something because money is not our GOD!

Vandy
Jan. 3, 2006, 07:21 PM
Snowbird, like I said, I can see your point of view, and basically agree with it. What I was saying was, just because one does not sign the petition, it does not mean they are planning to kill horses as WA's post implied!

Snowbird
Jan. 4, 2006, 09:19 AM
I think Vandy that many of us who are mission driven find it hard to understand those who may agree with their position but just can't take a public stand. I respect your feelings and we are all different that way.

I've never been a fence sitter, politically correct or afraid to take a solid stand based on principles. That to me is what's important. While I'm a people person I have never taken a stand against a person but either what they have done or not done or caused to be done.

For me it is the crime and not who did the crime that matters.

Lori B
Jan. 4, 2006, 10:24 AM
Amen, Snowbird.

Vandy, the point that Snowbird is making is that we don't really see much of a middle ground here. PV and the other horse killers were convicted in a court of law of the deeds we are discussing. There's nothing vigilante-like about the no reinstatement effort, nor has anyone suggested that there's any question that PV and the others did what they were convicted of. We are saying that the crimes of which they were convicted are non-negotiably unforgivable, and that no abilities, connections, personal qualities, or whatever should diminish the fact that we don't want the USEF to grant him the privilege of associating with the equestrian world on a professional basis.

There are crimes that lawyers and doctors commit, for example, which by virtue of being crimes against their profession, get them disbarred from their profession for life. I would suggest that a horse trainer killing a horse should earn the equivalent of disbarment for life, at the very least.

RNB
Jan. 4, 2006, 10:50 AM
I've never been a fence sitter either Snowbird. In the case I've been involved with for the past 7 years I can not begin to tell you how many people said things like "Well I won't do any business with them but I don't want to send a letter" to help the DOJ stop their criminal activities. It just amazes me when people continue to complain about things going on in the horse industry but will not step up to the plate to help make a difference. I'm sure they would be singing a different tune if they or their horse were victims.

Pirateer
Jan. 4, 2006, 10:52 AM
I would just like to say that I am proudly sporting my red "No Reinstatement" bracelet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 4, 2006, 11:02 AM
To me, their "friends" and clients should be the ones maddest at them, and least forgiving.

To the rest of us, it is a general assault on the horse world's credibility, and the knowledge that these people deep down are the kind of people that truly don't care about the animals that make them their living. You don't LEARN to care. You either have it in you, or not.

To their clients and business associates, it was a personal deceit - kind of like if you found out your husband had raped your best friend. I bet you wouldn't let him around your friends again, and surely divorce would be high on the menu... ya think? After he got out for the rape, I'm not thinkin you would let him give any of your friends rides from the airport - ever again, in your lifetime - no matter if they "paid the price", or seemed a nice guy.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 4, 2006, 11:04 AM
The problem as I see it is celebrity status. People still want to be friendly with OJ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 4, 2006, 11:06 AM
Fairview that is very true, and parents would let their children have pajama parties at Neverland.

Limerick
Jan. 4, 2006, 11:48 AM
My husband commented to me this morning as I sent off the cheque for my horse's insurance policy that I probably have PV et al to thank for high insurance prices. That may be true. I know it's an absolute truth, however, that insurance companies now go to extremes to ensure that proper procedures are taken when a horse needs to be euthanized in case of insurance fraud. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 4, 2006, 12:35 PM
A few pages back I believe I commented on thanking all of the members of the group for what they have done to our insurance rates. The people who embrace the thought of forgiveness certainly in addition to forgiving the horror of what happened to those poor horses have forgiven the fact that Valliere, Ward, Lindemann et al have their hands deep in our pockets.

Snowbird
Jan. 4, 2006, 01:23 PM
This is a very valid point which I had not even considered. In reality all horse people are paying back to the insurance companies the money that these people received from claims.

So technically we are all their victims as well.

War Admiral
Jan. 4, 2006, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
This is a very valid point which I had not even considered. In reality all horse people are paying back to the insurance companies the money that these people received from claims.

So technically we are all their victims as well.

That, and as I stated earlier, it will be REALLY interesting to see if USEF is still able to provide blanket secondary insurance to all members if this group of people is reinstated. I like having that secondary policy to sit behind my primary insurance!

Zorro
Jan. 4, 2006, 07:04 PM
Bump!

ss3777
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:34 AM
No word/reply from Ethel Walker. Maybe they are still on Christmas break?

LE
Jan. 5, 2006, 08:30 AM
Hiddenlake--no problems! I TOTALLY get where you are all coming from. When the insurance fraud hit the media, and I watched an exposee about it, I was so angry, I just couldn't do anything for an hour after the show.

I could not believe what people would do for money, and the horrific stories of what those people did to the horses just....I cringed.

I was just wondering if saying no to reinstatment would hit them in their pocketbook, or if there was another way all these intetions could really stop them, but Seven really explained it very well, and I TOTALLY respect that.

As I said, I am the eternal optimist. I like to BELIEVE that people can change, and would change. That they have seen a new light and become advocates against animal abuse/insurance fraud. Of course, I can still believe that people can change, right?

hiddenlake, thanks about the info for sinus infections. This was my very first, and so far, I'm ok. I can't imagine having sinus infections SO bad you need root canal!! Yikes!

In the Air
Jan. 5, 2006, 01:41 PM
I sent several of the posts on this thread to a close friend who is an riding alumni of Ethel Walker. Needless to say she spent many hours today on the phone with them. Their director of communications told her that they did not approve the ad placed and are very upset by the linking of their name and PV's. Is seems that they did not know of the ad until it was placed because it originated from Northrun. They plan on doing some rapid PR work to distance themselves from any association with PV. They are looking into whether any of their staff had anything to do with this ad.

big dawg
Jan. 5, 2006, 02:53 PM
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

Windsor
Jan. 5, 2006, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

This tickles me.

If you think these people have big trust funds, how big must yours be, since it allows you time not only to follow what they're doing, but to comment on it?

Seal Harbor
Jan. 5, 2006, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

What a sexist thing to say... how do you know it's not our Mother's trust funds thank you very much. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I'm sure there are many folks here who work as well.

On a more on topic note, what do you care what these people do with their time? Maybe they make time for important causes.

big dawg
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Seal Harbor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

What a sexist thing to say... how do you know it's not our Mother's trust funds thank you very much. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I'm sure there are many folks here who work as well.

On a more on topic note, what do you care what these people do with their time? Maybe they make time for important causes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

O.K., you are living off mommy's dad's $

big dawg
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seal Harbor:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

What a sexist thing to say... how do you know it's not our Mother's trust funds thank you very much. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I'm sure there are many folks here who work as well.

On a more on topic note, what do you care what these people do with their time? Maybe they make time for important causes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

when not working at Planned Parenthood selling abortions to young girls?

big dawg
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Windsor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

This tickles me.

If you think these people have big trust funds, how big must yours be, since it allows you time not only to follow what they're doing, but to comment on it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just do this for scientific study--I am amazed by the number of crazies there are in this world.

big dawg
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by LE:
Hiddenlake--no problems! I TOTALLY get where you are all coming from. When the insurance fraud hit the media, and I watched an exposee about it, I was so angry, I just couldn't do anything for an hour after the show.

I could not believe what people would do for money, and the horrific stories of what those people did to the horses just....I cringed.

I was just wondering if saying no to reinstatment would hit them in their pocketbook, or if there was another way all these intetions could really stop them, but Seven really explained it very well, and I TOTALLY respect that.

As I said, I am the eternal optimist. I like to BELIEVE that people can change, and would change. That they have seen a new light and become advocates against animal abuse/insurance fraud. Of course, I can still believe that people can change, right?

hiddenlake, thanks about the info for sinus infections. This was my very first, and so far, I'm ok. I can't imagine having sinus infections SO bad you need root canal!! Yikes!

All you can do is keep these people off Licensed competitions, you have no more power than that.

big dawg
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Limerick:
My husband commented to me this morning as I sent off the cheque for my horse's insurance policy that I probably have PV et al to thank for high insurance prices. That may be true. I know it's an absolute truth, however, that insurance companies now go to extremes to ensure that proper procedures are taken when a horse needs to be euthanized in case of insurance fraud. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

ditto workers comp fraud, and car accident fraud, etc. Same problem---why do you think that insuring an animal is different than insuring a boat or plane for instance?

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:44 PM
I just do this for scientific study--I am amazed by the number of crazies there are in this world.

ummmm, nope You do this to get a reaction.

Snowbird
Jan. 5, 2006, 05:30 PM
ditto workers comp fraud, and car accident fraud, etc. Same problem---why do you think that insuring an animal is different than insuring a boat or plane for instance?
Oh! Big Dawg I too am shocked that there is anyone that is an example of classic psychosis and still not committed.

What ever makes you think that conservatives who efficiently manage their time don't usually find the BB very recreational. AND since we conservatives can be self employed our time is our own we don't have bosses to report to because we pay our own way.

Not necessarily on the dole just because we get paid enough to have free time.

Above reference your quote and even you will clearly see the reason you find us all so strange.

1. You lump the horse in as property...and we donlt consider them property but a member of our family that brings us good sport so we are willing to care for them.

2. The obvious difference is that the horse is a live being born free and who puts up with us by reward and not punishment. You cannot park a horse in your driveway or at an airport. It is not a mechanical and unfeeling object which can be simply disposed of if your are bored by tossing it in the dump.

As a live animal it's value is calculated differently as to perishability. And therefore yes insurance companies could come to the conclusion that the risk of total destruction is too big a risk to be insured. Just as a fireman is a bigger risk than a secretary.

ss3777
Jan. 5, 2006, 05:37 PM
sent several of the posts on this thread to a close friend who is an riding alumni of Ethel Walker. Needless to say she spent many hours today on the phone with them. Their director of communications told her that they did not approve the ad placed and are very upset by the linking of their name and PV's. Is seems that they did not know of the ad until it was placed because it originated from Northrun. They plan on doing some rapid PR work to distance themselves from any association with PV. They are looking into whether any of their staff had anything to do with this ad.


Hey, that is good news. I was getting a bit frustrated that I had not heard back from EW. I will be very interested in seeing what their "rapid PR work" evolves into.

Serah
Jan. 5, 2006, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Limerick:
My husband commented to me this morning as I sent off the cheque for my horse's insurance policy that I probably have PV et al to thank for high insurance prices. That may be true. I know it's an absolute truth, however, that insurance companies now go to extremes to ensure that proper procedures are taken when a horse needs to be euthanized in case of insurance fraud. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif


Unfortunatly this isnt true either. I was involved in a specific example in which I knew of a horse that was put to sleep for insurance money. The owner was offered many free homes for this horse who was lame, as a result of OCD. She only had mortality insurance. The argument was that this horse would eventually die or have to be put down because of the OCD...Funny that the horse was sound to walk and light hack, however he couldnt jump big jumper courses like he had previously. The horse got put down, and she claimed the money... My friends and I went ballistic and went directly to the Insurance company with evidence of her saying that she had to put the horse down, because she couldnt afford to buy another horse if she didnt. The insurance company was surprisingly rude to us, considering we were trying to save them money. Eventually they gave us the number of the investigator and we gave her the info, but nothing was ever done... She got her money. I'm sure there are people on this BB that know exactly the story im referring to and seeing as how my name isnt exactly ambiguous, im sure i will catch some opposition to this post, but my main point is this. IT DOES HAPPEN. We sit here and still argue about the 90's indictments...but it is still happening, we need to be looking more into that, instead of still chasing after people who have been punished. (I'm not saying they deserve to have all their rights back, simply saying we need to move our focus to preventing this from happening)

This is the most controversal post i have written...but i feel strongly about this topic and this example especially, seeing as I knew the horse and he was a great great horse with the kindest disposition.... Here goes.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 5, 2006, 06:28 PM
I was involved in a specific example in which I knew of a horse that was put to sleep for insurance money. The owner was offered many free homes for this horse who was lame, as a result of OCD. She only had mortality insurance. The argument was that this horse would eventually die or have to be put down because of the OCD...

I just wanted to let you know the opposite can also be true. I had a colt that was under contract with a purchase agreement to buy the horse at weaning - after a successful pre-purchase agreement. I had arranged for major medical & mortality on the colt during the period. A few months later, and before the sale was final, he came in very lame. X-rays showed that he had a fracture at the fetlock - just up to the joint.

My vet recommended putting him down - not even knowing he was insured - just because of his poor prognosis. I wanted to give him a chance, even if he could only be a companion. I would not have kept him alive if he was not totally comfortable. I cancelled his purchase agreeement, and put him on stall rest for 2-3 months. At then end of the period, the fracture was beginning to fill in, so we turned him out. I knew that my insurance would no longer pay, but I just had to try. A year later, he had not taken a bad step, and did flex 100% sound. I cut his price in half, and sold him to a wonderful home. His x-rays are totally clean, and at his pre-purchase, the vet couldn't even see where it had been. Oh, btw, I never turned in the major medical claim either. It is not about the money. It is about saving a wonderful colt.

Serah
Jan. 5, 2006, 06:36 PM
exactly...my point is that this horse had a future, he could have been a beginners flat horse, or a companion, and NUMEROUS people offered to take him for free and keep him and care for him for the rest of his life....however if the owner chose that route she wouldnt be able to buy a new horse...

Seal Harbor
Jan. 5, 2006, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Windsor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

This tickles me.

If you think these people have big trust funds, how big must yours be, since it allows you time not only to follow what they're doing, but to comment on it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just do this for scientific study--I am amazed by the number of crazies there are in this world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently you are one of them. You have managed to find the time to not only read the posts but add your posts not once but six times. Perhaps you are living off daddy's trust fund.

BTW you are just a little dawg.

Snowbird
Jan. 5, 2006, 07:34 PM
I bet Big Dawg is very little everywhere that's why he chose that monika. Big Dawgs don't have to brag. Little pee wee dawgs have to brag and pretend to be Big Dawgs.!

Limerick
Jan. 5, 2006, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Limerick:
My husband commented to me this morning as I sent off the cheque for my horse's insurance policy that I probably have PV et al to thank for high insurance prices. That may be true. I know it's an absolute truth, however, that insurance companies now go to extremes to ensure that proper procedures are taken when a horse needs to be euthanized in case of insurance fraud. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

ditto workers comp fraud, and car accident fraud, etc. Same problem---why do you think that insuring an animal is different than insuring a boat or plane for instance? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you going on about now?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just an aside...."Dawg" got kicked out of the dictionary of slang! (http://www.nola.com/living/t-p/index.ssf?/base/living-5/1136101081176420.xml)

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Seal Harbor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Windsor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone's else's job....must be a lot of lefties living off your dad's trust funds...

This tickles me.

If you think these people have big trust funds, how big must yours be, since it allows you time not only to follow what they're doing, but to comment on it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just do this for scientific study--I am amazed by the number of crazies there are in this world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently you are one of them. You have managed to find the time to not only read the posts but add your posts not once but six times. Perhaps you are living off daddy's trust fund.

BTW you are just a little dawg. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you count everyone's posts? WOW

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
I bet Big Dawg is very little everywhere that's why he chose that monika. Big Dawgs don't have to brag. Little pee wee dawgs have to brag and pretend to be Big Dawgs.!

Sounds like this is coming from a woman who wishes she were a MAN!

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Limerick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Limerick:
My husband commented to me this morning as I sent off the cheque for my horse's insurance policy that I probably have PV et al to thank for high insurance prices. That may be true. I know it's an absolute truth, however, that insurance companies now go to extremes to ensure that proper procedures are taken when a horse needs to be euthanized in case of insurance fraud. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

ditto workers comp fraud, and car accident fraud, etc. Same problem---why do you think that insuring an animal is different than insuring a boat or plane for instance? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you going on about now??

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Are you stupid and can't read, or just a public school education? Insurance fraud happens in all kinds of insured situations--I guess if you have nothing serious to add to the topic, then resort to personal snide remarks about the person contributing to the discussion.

Just an aside...."Dawg" got kicked out of the dictionary of slang! (http://www.nola.com/living/t-p/index.ssf?/base/living-5/1136101081176420.xml) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Serah
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:32 AM
Dawg...Do YOU have anything serious to contribute???? If not why dont you get on your merry little way???

Seal Harbor
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
you count everyone's posts? WOW

Six in a row were rather obvious, considering you were commenting on the way other people were spending their time. Perhaps you should be more concerned about the way you are spending your time. You haven't added much, if any thing, to the thread.

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Seal Harbor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:
you count everyone's posts? WOW

Six in a row were rather obvious, considering you were commenting on the way other people were spending their time. Perhaps you should be more concerned about the way you are spending your time. You haven't added much, if any thing, to the thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you haven't read my comments. I keep telling you folks that each of those suspended has the right under the rules to petition for reinstatement as each received a specific letter telling him/her what they needed to do to be reconsidered. Further, you shouldn't be signing a petition if you are not even a USEF member, otherwise you look like you are just an animal rights terrorist. If your only response is to tell folks how many posts I have made on these 56 pages [6], then maybe you should try an add something or else just turn your computer off.

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Serah:
Dawg...Do YOU have anything serious to contribute???? If not why dont you get on your merry little way???

Is that teen-speak? Or just a public school education talking...read what is being said, babe...If it is over your head, then tune to the Disney Channel.

ss3777
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:14 AM
Good news.... The "No Reinstatement" thread has spread to Foxhunters On Line. More discussion and more signatures!!

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:36 AM
In the subculture society of penis worship it would be an advantage.

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:41 AM
Then you haven't read my comments. I keep telling you folks that each of those suspended has the right under the rules to petition for reinstatement as each received a specific letter telling him/her what they needed to do to be reconsidered. Further, you shouldn't be signing a petition if you are not even a USEF member, otherwise you look like you are just an animal rights terrorist. If your only response is to tell folks how many posts I have made on these 56 pages [6], then maybe you should try an add something or else just turn your computer off.

And you know this how? We should believe you why? your authority comes from where? You should decide when my computer is on or off why?
And, if we're wrong then why do you bother to read the thread. Are you our caretaker?

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:41 AM
Ouch Snowbird!!!!! Now I admit to being a chauvinistic sort, and am wondering if that is directed to all of us xy chromosone types.

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:46 AM
Only when a male of the species thinks that particular feature is solely a reason for authority. I don't think most real males feel that way and I have rarely known one who felt his only contribution to this world was the penis.

i.e. the reference to subculture. The reference to size fits in the same culture where big boobs are a critria of femininity. It is true I have neither but I do not think that makes me less a person than I would be with plastic boobs.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:48 AM
Snowbird, I knew that, and was just joking with you, your choice of words and paraphrasing are like gems to me, I appreciate your conviction and devotion to your beliefs.

Edited to correct spelling.

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:52 AM
BIg Dawg is that where you normally play? If so perhaps I can help you my son is a Vice President at Disney and you wish you intellectually as clever as the people who produce that channel.

I haven't seen you say anything that wasn't redundant "because I said" so I doubt you have the capacity to estimate some else's IQ. Usually to feel good most people who are imbeciles want to believe everyone else is dumber than them.

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:57 AM
Well Harry in truth it is then a mutual respect. I particularly admire the way you make your points with so few words. I get annoyed with myself for being too wordy.

If by the time you are my age you don't have convictions and you still don't know what you believe it could be tragic. I doubt St. Peter at the gate is interested in a debate.

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:08 AM
I have always been interested in this whole sexist issue. Technically the X chromosone is an error and they have already proved in many species that they can reproduce females without the contribution of the male except you only get more females and that would so boring I don't want to go there.

That's always been the big issue of the virgin birth, it is possible but then Jesus would have had to be female.And was it only his current male chauvinist world that decided he was male? Any evidence? Did you see see the TV documentary about Pope Joan?

And no I am not a female chauvinist nor a Lesbian, just a student of the mind who enjoys keeping both sides in perspective.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:16 AM
Snowbird, I indeed did see the special about Pope Joan. It was fascinating, and has prompted me to order one of the books about it. The Catholic church has, for centuries kept many things hidden (in the name of Divine Mystery).

SGray
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
Then you haven't read my comments. I keep telling you folks that each of those suspended has the right under the rules to petition for reinstatement as each received a specific letter telling him/her what they needed to do to be reconsidered. Further, you shouldn't be signing a petition if you are not even a USEF member, otherwise you look like you are just an animal rights terrorist. If your only response is to tell folks how many posts I have made on these 56 pages [6], then maybe you should try an add something or else just turn your computer off.

{bold in above quote added by sgray}

the Petition is addressed "To: The United States Equestrian Federation ("USEF"), the United States Olympic Committee ("USOC"), and the Fédération Equestre Internationale ("FEI"): " -- so anyone who is a member of the USEF or any of its affiliated organizations, anyone who is a citizen of the U.S. and anyone who is a member of another nation's NGB that is affiliated with the FEI would be an appropriate signatory

Limerick
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:03 AM
Harry, you may also be interested in "The Gnostic Gospels." I read it a few years ago and found it fascinating and thought provoking.

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:05 AM
I am starting to think Big Dawg and Sheila H are one and the same.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:05 AM
Internet Trolls (http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT)

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:18 AM
While you're at it read the Gospel of Mary Magdalene which was written at the time and left out as well.

Seal Harbor
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:46 AM
Then you haven't read my comments. I keep telling you folks that each of those suspended has the right under the rules to petition for reinstatement as each received a specific letter telling him/her what they needed to do to be reconsidered. Further, you shouldn't be signing a petition if you are not even a USEF member, otherwise you look like you are just an animal rights terrorist. If your only response is to tell folks how many posts I have made on these 56 pages [6], then maybe you should try an add something or else just turn your computer off.

It's your recent posts where you are harassing other people about how they spend their time which is none of your business are even less worthy.

The more you protest and get concerned about what other people are doing the more it leads people to believe that this is hitting pretty close to home for you.

Turning my computer off is not an option, since it's part of what I do for a living.

Limerick
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:14 AM
big dawg, you stated that suspended members have received letters from the USEF about what steps they need to take to reapply. May I ask what the steps are? Did you see one of these letters?

And as for my lament about insurance rates going up due to the horse killer circle's actions, I am aware that other lowlife scam-artists in the world have negatively affected how various types of insurance is handled.

I, however, as a horse lover, am free to bemoan the fact that PV et al had such a negative effect on the horse insurance industry. I have never applied for worker's comp. or unemployment insurance and so I don't feel a need to complain about the dishonesty in those circles.

I believe that the suspended people do have a right to reapply for reinstatement. I believe even more strongly in the little peoples' right to express to the USEF that those who kill horses for insurance money don't deserve a USEF membership.

Zorro
Jan. 6, 2006, 09:16 AM
Great post from Fairview Horse Center. It's a link to clear description of internet trolls, their behavior and motivations and how best to respond to their posts. If you haven't read it, you might find it very interesting and it might influence how certain posters on this link could be dealt with effectively.

Here's the link Fairview provided.
Internet Trolls (http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT)

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Seal Harbor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then you haven't read my comments. I keep telling you folks that each of those suspended has the right under the rules to petition for reinstatement as each received a specific letter telling him/her what they needed to do to be reconsidered. Further, you shouldn't be signing a petition if you are not even a USEF member, otherwise you look like you are just an animal rights terrorist. If your only response is to tell folks how many posts I have made on these 56 pages [6], then maybe you should try an add something or else just turn your computer off.

It's your recent posts where you are harassing other people about how they spend their time which is none of your business are even less worthy.

The more you protest and get concerned about what other people are doing the more it leads people to believe that this is hitting pretty close to home for you.

Turning my computer off is not an option, since it's part of what I do for a living. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then add something to the conversation by staying on the issues...quit getting personal or go back to trying to make a living.

Serah
Jan. 6, 2006, 11:26 AM
I promised myself i wouldn't reply to your crap anymore, but this just made me laugh out loud...Big Dawg who are you to criticize someone for getting personal....Wasn't it you making the "daddy's money" and "public school" comments????

Janet
Jan. 6, 2006, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
I have always been interested in this whole sexist issue. Technically the X chromosone is an error and they have already proved in many species that they can reproduce females without the contribution of the male except you only get more females and that would so boring I don't want to go there.

That's always been the big issue of the virgin birth, it is possible but then Jesus would have had to be female.And was it only his current male chauvinist world that decided he was male? Any evidence? Did you see see the TV documentary about Pope Joan?

And no I am not a female chauvinist nor a Lesbian, just a student of the mind who enjoys keeping both sides in perspective. Not a biologist either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Without the X chromasome there would be no females at all.

Female = XX
Male = XY

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:20 PM
Janet! Are you alluding to the fact that my lovely Xmass gift, BASEBALL JESUS, could be a NANCY BOY???!!! I'll have you know he also performs body checks in Hockey, has a mean left hook in Boxing..and performs all these feats in a robe and sandals!!!
Attached..He man baseball Jesus http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:48 PM
Never was good at biology.OK! it's the y that's the weak one. I remember when I was getting pregnant the old wives tale was you had to douche with barcarb because that little booger got kocked from acids. It must have worked because my first born was the designated male child.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 6, 2006, 01:54 PM
Somehow, Snowbird, I shall never see your name without knowing that little piece of information.

Seal Harbor
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Serah:
I promised myself i wouldn't reply to your crap anymore, but this just made me laugh out loud...Big Dawg who are you to criticize someone for getting personal....Wasn't it you making the "daddy's money" and "public school" comments????

Serah - big dawg is one of those "do as I say not as I do people". The same social mores do not appear to apply to the dawg as they do to the rest of the people. The dawg thinks it's special.

The dawg doth protest too much, methinks. ...

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:09 PM
OH! you're just feeling sad for that weak little y thing, but one little guy made it.

I like to share with my friends.

Seal Harbor a special what?

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:12 PM
Snowbird, I do swear that when we should meet, I will have to tell the wife that I know just a bit more about you than I ever possibly should.

Seal Harbor
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
OH! you're just feeling sad for that weak little y thing, but one little guy made it.

I like to share with my friends.

Seal Harbor a special what?

Snowbird you can fill in that blank anyway you want. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:28 PM
Hey! Don't change the subject. I know you're all plotting to divert my attention and steal my Baseball Jesus. Shame on you all!

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:37 PM
Seal Harbor that's a dangerous concept. Do you have any idea the thing my overactive imagination can conceive?

Seal Harbor
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:52 PM
Snowbird - probably no worse than I have already at least once or twice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Racetb - while I can't speak for the others I know I don't want to steal your Baseball Jesus. What I would love to know though is what made you collect the sport Jesuses (is that the plural of Jesus?) in the first place.

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:02 PM
LMAO!! He is a thing of beauty. I will be the envy of all when I finish my collection by attaining the elusive CURLING JESUS. Who could resist these precious statues???
Oh hell Seal, it's been a long crappy winter...I'm obviously losing what little mind I have left. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

ss3777
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:28 PM
RaceTB--Hey I may need to steal the baseball Jesus. My 5 year old son is going to a local Catholic school. He came home the other day (Christmas pageant time) to tell us how much he DOES NOT like the baby Jesus. He is petrified that I "might grow another baby" and thus does not like any "disgusting, smelly baby". YIKES!! Wish me luck, may the gods of the baseball Jesus shine down upon my heathen son. I think that the benign, sporty baseball Jesus may help my son reconsider his first impression

Bumpkin
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:35 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5566064631/m/306207948

Thank you "Saturday Night Live", the red NO REINSTATEMENT bands came today.
I am going to try and get some worn to the WSHJA Year End Awards Banquet tomorrow night.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:57 PM
Racetb it's called cabin fever or the grey blah! I completely understand. But, to add to the dilemma I got thrown out of Catholic School. I had a bru-ha with the Priest in confession because he said there were no animals in heaven; and I said then I don;t want to go...Momma Mia he wouldn't have been that mad if I had told I wanted grow to be prostitute.

He insisted animals did not have souls and therefore were not welcome in heaven and I said that the animals I knew were better than some people.

And a few weeks later I was in public school.

Bumpkin
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:25 PM
Thank You!!!!
Got mine today.




Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive:
Ok, I'm gonna mention one more time that I have bracelets that read No Reinstatement. If you want one, please PM me and I'll send one on to you.

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Bumpkin:
Thank You!!!!
Got mine today.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive:
Ok, I'm gonna mention one more time that I have bracelets that read No Reinstatement. If you want one, please PM me and I'll send one on to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And one more time I ask who gets the profits from your sales of these bracelets...why not be honest and go on EBay to sell your trinkets?

big dawg
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Serah:
I promised myself i wouldn't reply to your crap anymore, but this just made me laugh out loud...Big Dawg who are you to criticize someone for getting personal....Wasn't it you making the "daddy's money" and "public school" comments????

Another woman who can't keep promises? On these chat rooms you should fit right in.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:16 PM
Please remember to not respond to a troll.

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:20 PM
Big Dawg it's simple there are good people and good people just don't think the way you do! You have a very warped mentality. You might consider some serious treatment for you psychosis.

Can't you see your problem? You defend those who fraudulently kill horses for money. And then you accuse honest folks of stealing money.
This is the second time you've made that accusation don't you see it's a pattern.

Fairview I don't think this is a troll at all. I think this is a sick human needing help or a would be horse killer because he defends the action.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:29 PM
I don't think this is a troll at all. I think this is a sick human needing help or a would be horse killer because he defends the action.

But he fits the troll profile on many threads - just throwing out lines to get a rise out of someone.

Snowbird
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:15 PM
I think Fairview that we could both be right. A troll is a psychotic personality looking to gain attention that would be part of someone who identifies with the people who do bad things and attacks those who try to do good things. It is a negativism usually the result of someone who is always bossed around and feels as if they no other freedom.

It can also be an intrinsic arrogance like that of a spoiled child who doesn't believe the rules apply to them.

Bumpkin
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:03 PM
THEY ARE FREE BIG DAWG!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif




Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bumpkin:
Thank You!!!!
Got mine today.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive:
Ok, I'm gonna mention one more time that I have bracelets that read No Reinstatement. If you want one, please PM me and I'll send one on to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And one more time I ask who gets the profits from your sales of these bracelets...why not be honest and go on EBay to sell your trinkets? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:42 PM
I think Fairview that we could both be right

Yes. They crave attention though, and ANY attention is what they are looking for.

Bumpkin
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
I think Fairview that we could both be right. A troll is a psychotic personality looking to gain attention that would be part of someone who identifies with the people who do bad things and attacks those who try to do good things. It is a negativism usually the result of someone who is always bossed around and feels as if they no other freedom.

It can also be an intrinsic arrogance like that of a spoiled child who doesn't believe the rules apply to them.


We have a lot of regular posters who could fit that bill, don't we? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:46 PM
Stop talking about me ladies, and Fairview, the wife is in love with the colt on your website called Tahoe. Please let her know that a woman of her age with limited experience could not handle a young colt!!!!!

hiddenlake
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by harryjohnson:
Please let her know that a woman of her age with limited experience could not handle a young colt!!!!!

Now Harry, are you talking metaphors here? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:57 PM
Sadly no, the wife listens not to me nor to her trainer, she sees a horse that looks nice, and immediately thinks anyone can ride it.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:58 PM
Actually harryjohnson, Tahoe is now a 5 year old http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

hiddenlake
Jan. 6, 2006, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by harryjohnson:
Sadly no, the wife listens not to me nor to her trainer, she sees a horse that looks nice, and immediately thinks anyone can ride it.

Well, all of us ladies like to look at the young ones and think "if only...."

Serah
Jan. 6, 2006, 09:04 PM
My personal fave is Wesley

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 6, 2006, 09:06 PM
Wesley is my boarders favorite. He is very laid back and easy going.

Tahoe is the super athlete. He is very willing, but more sensitive, and VERY bouncy at the trot!!

Seal Harbor
Jan. 7, 2006, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Racetb:
LMAO!! He is a thing of beauty. I will be the envy of all when I finish my collection by attaining the elusive CURLING JESUS. Who could resist these precious statues???
Oh hell Seal, it's been a long crappy winter...I'm obviously losing what little mind I have left. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

You might be losing it but you gave me the best laugh of the day when I saw your reply.I think many of us are coming along with you for the ride.

I will be on the look out for a Curling Jesus for your collection. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

big dawg
Jan. 7, 2006, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
Big Dawg it's simple there are good people and good people just don't think the way you do! You have a very warped mentality. You might consider some serious treatment for you psychosis.

Can't you see your problem? You defend those who fraudulently kill horses for money. And then you accuse honest folks of stealing money.
This is the second time you've made that accusation don't you see it's a pattern.

Fairview I don't think this is a troll at all. I think this is a sick human needing help or a would be horse killer because he defends the action.

I must be lost in a blue state--and it is not Kansas. These people can only do name calling. They can't read the USEF rules properly. They want to hang everyone who disagrees with them...forget discussing the issues. Just call names. Yikes, it is 1st grade again but full of yuppies!

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2006, 04:45 AM
Dear Dawg I am as far from a Yuppie as a human can be. That is your interpretation of the rules and not mine.

I do not think that using a proxy and a radio was compliance or demonstrated remorse for the damage to our industry and those horses who died. He didn't even need the money it is not as if that was his only way to survive or the owners couldn't afford the loss. Those horses could have found good homes at a lower level and made other people gratefully happy.

It could have been just as beneficial to write them off as a business loss.

Bumpkin
Jan. 7, 2006, 08:05 AM
Amen

ss3777
Jan. 7, 2006, 10:57 AM
Personally, I would like to thank Dawg for consistently keeping this thread on page one. Reading his replies is like slowing down for a look at a car wreck. You feel uncomfortable looking but you just can not help yourselfhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2006, 11:16 AM
That's a superior analogy.

big dawg
Jan. 7, 2006, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by ss3777:
Personally, I would like to thank Dawg for consistently keeping this thread on page one. Reading his replies is like slowing down for a look at a car wreck. You feel uncomfortable looking but you just can not help yourselfhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MADE YOU LOOK/KEEPING YOU OFF THE STREETS AND OUT OF TROUBLE.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 7, 2006, 03:22 PM
Secretly I think big dawg is in agreement with you all, and just trying to keep things in discussion.

Bumpkin
Jan. 7, 2006, 04:40 PM
Attention: SNOWBIRD

I am getting PT's for the bracelets.
SNL is out of them, as am I.
Do you know when you will have more?

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2006, 04:52 PM
I should have them next week when I get back from Cincinnati. I haven't heard from Susan so there could be two orders. I have 250 coming. and 100 here waiting. The ones SNL mailed to me haven't gotten here yet. I wanted to keep them all looking the same.

big dawg
Jan. 7, 2006, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by harryjohnson:
Secretly I think big dawg is in agreement with you all, and just trying to keep things in discussion.

Just snooping around for the animal rights terrorists...

Nationalvelvet
Jan. 8, 2006, 05:09 AM
I REALLY would like to see who in our industry has signed this petition......but when I try to access this area, it states I should contact the owner of the page.

Any suggestions, anyone?

ss3777
Jan. 8, 2006, 05:12 AM
Just snooping around


I thought a big Dawg like you would be sniffing not snooping http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PS try the hunting forum, they are an animal rights terrorists magnet. Although, I do not find the discussions to be as "spirited" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snowbird
Jan. 8, 2006, 05:35 AM
Big Dawg you're really really off course!

War Admiral
Jan. 8, 2006, 05:59 AM
Nahhh, let's not hang the Big Dawg, Snowbird. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As others have observed, s/he is doing a far better job keeping this thread on page 1 than any of us could possibly hope for (I foresee a dazzling future for you with Phelps Media, BD).

Besides, I'm always one for spirited debate, this country being a democracy and all.

Jumphigh83
Jan. 8, 2006, 06:29 AM
Just to keep the contention at high pitch..it actually is a representative republic not a democracy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 8, 2006, 06:31 AM
Very good Jumphigh, have rarely seen someone aware of that.

Snowbird
Jan. 8, 2006, 07:26 AM
OK! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I'll be kind to him. You spoil all my fun.It's sort of like the "kick the dawg" syndrome.

Are you sending the Petition down to the Convention? The 1st Board meeting I think is Tuesday. You should also send a copy to Bill Moroney.

War Admiral
Jan. 8, 2006, 07:34 AM
I don't think so - there's not really much point their getting it until roundabout the time the first person is eligible to apply for reinstatement. Otherwise it'll be all too easily forgotten.... It's not like they're not aware this is happening, and I'd rather use the time to get more sigs... If that's agreeable w/ y'all??

Snowbird
Jan. 8, 2006, 08:00 AM
Sounds like good logic to me.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Jan. 8, 2006, 08:38 AM
I think the petition presented now, with a statement "this many signatures ALREADY" gives them something to weigh on their minds until spring. Let them know that they are being watched.

N&B&T
Jan. 8, 2006, 09:26 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Taking the plunge to point out that it is possible to be a former friend, colleague, student, client etc. of PV and/or to believe he is genuinely and deeply remorseful--*and also* believe that he should not be re-instated, even though he was given the option to apply to be.

PV would not be deprived of a livelihood, only denied membership.

I personally believe re-instatement is inappropriate for *all* involved. If this situation doesn't warrant lifetime banning, it is difficult to imagine what would. Sanctions need teeth or they aren't sanctions.

Duffy
Jan. 8, 2006, 09:33 AM
Exactly, N&B&T.

ss3777
Jan. 8, 2006, 10:44 AM
Taking the plunge to point out that it is possible to be a former friend, colleague, student, client etc. of PV and/or to believe he is genuinely and deeply remorseful--*and also* believe that he should not be re-instated, even though he was given the option to apply to be.

PV would not be deprived of a livelihood, only denied membership.

I personally believe re-instatement is inappropriate for *all* involved. If this situation doesn't warrant lifetime banning, it is difficult to imagine what would. Sanctions need teeth or they aren't sanctions.

I hope that some of the previous posters that are PV supporters/fans/neutral reflect on this sentiment. Perhaps N&B&T would be so bold as to start a new thread. It could be titled “please read if you support PV or are PV neutral”. The meat of the post would be the above statement. Maybe that would lead to further discussion?? I know “pounding the pulpit” won’t change anyone but perhaps if we could just get a few people to re-evaluate their positions. I have read with amazement some posts from people that support (or will not take a stand on) PV that otherwise seem like very reasonable folks.

MareOne
Jan. 8, 2006, 11:30 AM
I just read in a free issue of Equine Journal that David Oliynik (sp?) is going to work at Acres Wild and take clients to shows so that PV can stay at home. Thought that was interesting... Maybe someone else can post the actual quote from PV. I was going to, but my copy seems to have already gone out with the recycling.

Silver Bells
Jan. 8, 2006, 01:50 PM
Wow... over 1400 signatures!

big dawg
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Nationalvelvet:
I REALLY would like to see who in our industry has signed this petition......but when I try to access this area, it states I should contact the owner of the page.

Any suggestions, anyone?

Be very suspicious of those who must operate in secrecy!

big dawg
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by ss3777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just snooping around


I thought a big Dawg like you would be sniffing not snooping http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You're good...

PS try the hunting forum, they are an animal rights terrorists magnet. Although, I do not find the discussions to be as "spirited" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the hunter crowd is so booorrringggg

Jumphigh83
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:12 PM
Actually it would be the "hunting" crowd..the "hunter" crowd would be right here....H/J...and we are not boring! Hunters and hunting are dipolar nowadays...

big dawg
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:13 PM
I personally believe re-instatement is inappropriate for *all* involved. If this situation doesn't warrant lifetime banning, it is difficult to imagine what would. Sanctions need teeth or they aren't sanctions.[/QUOTE]

But that is your Opinion, not the current USEF [or former AHSA] Rule...do you believe in following the Rules, or are you for a dictatorship run by you?




I hope that some of the previous posters that are PV supporters/fans/neutral reflect on this sentiment. Perhaps N&B&T would be so bold as to start a new thread. It could be titled “please read if you support PV or are PV neutral”. The meat of the post would be the above statement. Maybe that would lead to further discussion?? I know “pounding the pulpit” won’t change anyone but perhaps if we could just get a few people to re-evaluate their positions. I have read with amazement some posts from people that support (or will not take a stand on) PV that otherwise seem like very reasonable folks.

And I have read also with amazement some posts from you and others who just want their own way--forget that the Rules allow each suspended person to apply for reinstatement--, and who I am sure are otherwise possibly reasonable folk.

Jumphigh83
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:14 PM
Possible teemartoonie dinner...huh?

big dawg
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Actually it would be the "hunting" crowd..the "hunter" crowd would be right here....H/J...and we are not boring! Hunters and hunting are dipolar IS THIS A WORD?

nowadays...

An aside--I for one lament the lumping of the show jumpers in with the hunters under the new USEF. I had hoped that an international equestrian sport [showjumping] could have at least had its own organization--but alas, follow the money $$$$.

Jumphigh83
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:20 PM
: exhibiting polarity; especially : having a dipole or characterized by molecules having dipoles

Duffy
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:

And I have read also with amazement some posts from you and others who just want their own way--forget that the Rules allow each suspended person to apply for reinstatement--, and who I am sure are otherwise possibly reasonable folk.

No one here is denying these murderers their right to apply for reinstatement under the current rules. What we hope to accomplish is their membership reinstatement application is denied, as well as to make sure other members who commit heineous acts against these horses are given lifetime suspensions.

La Gringa
Jan. 8, 2006, 05:30 PM
I sent this petition to everyone I have on my list..

People like this should not be allowed to have horses at all..

The SPCA prevents people from having dogs and cats when they abuse them, by law. I think the same should be done for horse abusers, and in a case like this, Valliere should get a lifetime ban.. from any horse related activity.
JMO

big dawg
Jan. 8, 2006, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Duffy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big dawg:

And I have read also with amazement some posts from you and others who just want their own way--forget that the Rules allow each suspended person to apply for reinstatement--, and who I am sure are otherwise possibly reasonable folk.

No one here is denying these murderers

I DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS LEGALLY A CORRECT TERM--YOU ARE BEING LED BY YOUR PASSIONATE VIEW OF ANIMAL TREATMENT

their right to apply for reinstatement under the current rules. What we hope to accomplish is their membership reinstatement application is denied, as well as to make sure other members who commit heineous acts against these horses are given lifetime suspensions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ARE YOU NOW SUBMITTING A RULE CHANGE? AND ARE YOU THE DEFINITIVE PERSON FOR "HEINEOUS ACTS"/YOU HAD BETTER START WITH ALL YOUR HUNTER HORSES THAT ARE UNDER CONSTANT MEDICATION AT EVERY SHOW--I DON'T SEE A BIG CLAMOUR FOR STOPPING TURNING THESE COMPETITION HORSES INTO DRUG ADDICTS? OH, I FORGOT, THAT A CERTAIN LEVEL OF MEDICATION IS "LEGAL"...

big dawg
Jan. 8, 2006, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
: exhibiting polarity; especially : having a dipole or characterized by molecules having dipoles

READ YOUR SENTENCE--USE OF THIS WORD IS ONLY SHOWING OFF--IT IS NOT CORRECTLY USED IN THE CONTEXT YOU ARE DESCRIBING.

Limerick
Jan. 8, 2006, 07:42 PM
big dawg, please turn off your "caps locks". It is interpreted as yelling on the internet. Using all capital letters and spouting gross generalizations make you sound crazy.

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 8, 2006, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Limerick:
big dawg, please turn off your "caps locks". It is interpreted as yelling on the internet. Using all capital letters and spouting gross generalizations make you sound crazy.

I agree and to say all hunters are on drugs is wrong. I for one do not drug my horses or ponies when showing. I have not replied to any of your retoric (sp) on this or any of the other treads. We can disagree with people but there is no need to attack.

big dawg
Jan. 9, 2006, 12:46 AM
sorry, am not used to these chat room rules and etiquette, etc. this is new for me and i am doing some research for an article i am writing. i was warned about these chat rooms and am finding maybe the warnings were correct. seems there is not much room for differing points of view.

and please you don't need to attack when you reply.

big dawg
Jan. 9, 2006, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Showponymom:

I agree and to say all hunters are on drugs is wrong. I for one do not drug my horses or ponies when showing. I have not replied to any of your retoric (sp) on this or any of the other treads. We can disagree with people but there is no need to attack.

so you do admit giving them drugs when not showing, or do i misunderstand your statement? i know quite a few big time hunter trainers and those horses are like crack addicts...personally i think the drug rules are too loose and need to be drastically tightened--this is pure animal abuse in its strictest sense. this is not meant as an attack against you or any other responsible show person, but it is pervasive in the industry and you should at least be able to admit that without feeling any personal threat.

Sansena
Jan. 9, 2006, 01:18 AM
"so you do admit giving them drugs when not showing, or do i misunderstand your statement? "

There's nothing innocent about YOUR comments about show hunters being like 'crack addicts'. You're being antagonistic, pure & simple. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck it's a duck.

Having an aspiring hunter, I found that comment, very much the "an attack". Further, this statement above made by you, was made to be nasty, pure & simple.

Research or not, you should be aware that just because horses are given methocarb, albuteral, prednisolone, cyproheptadine, flunuxine, bute or other maintenance medicines, it does NOT mean they're 'addicts'. There are plenty of barns that use these types of drugs therapeutically, and abide by the rules... Many horses have to live on periodic low dosages of robaxin, for example. So long as it's pulled from their diet according to the guidelines, I see no harm.

Now, if you're a zealot for 'animal abuse' you'll say that any animal who requires ANY maintenance medication is being abused. To which I reply: How is it different from when an athlete starts up, or increases or changes a workout regimen? Or when my arthritis kicks in~ Or when my cramps make me want to puke & go to bed? Or asthma? Do you think we just simply deal with it? Or do you think I'll allow myself an advil twice a day, for a few days until my body adjusts?

Or am I just a drug "addict" according to your logic?

big dawg
Jan. 9, 2006, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Sansena:
"so you do admit giving them drugs when not showing, or do i misunderstand your statement? "

There's nothing innocent about YOUR comments about show hunters being like 'crack addicts'. You're being antagonistic, pure & simple. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck it's a duck.

Having an aspiring hunter, I found that comment, very much the "an attack". Further, this statement above made by you, was made to be nasty, pure & simple.

Research or not, you should be aware that just because horses are given methocarb, albuteral, prednisolone, cyproheptadine, flunuxine, bute or other maintenance medicines, it does NOT mean they're 'addicts'. There are plenty of barns that use these types of drugs therapeutically, and abide by the rules... Many horses have to live on periodic low dosages of robaxin, for example. So long as it's pulled from their diet according to the guidelines, I see no harm.

Now, if you're a zealot for 'animal abuse' you'll say that any animal who requires ANY maintenance medication is being abused. To which I reply: How is it different from when an athlete starts up, or increases or changes a workout regimen? Or when my arthritis kicks in~ Or when my cramps make me want to puke & go to bed? Or asthma? Do you think we just simply deal with it? Or do you think I'll allow myself an advil twice a day, for a few days until my body adjusts?

Or am I just a drug "addict" according to your logic?

sounds like you doth protest too much...based on everything you have said, you prove my point exactly. go take a pill and relax.

Sansena
Jan. 9, 2006, 02:29 AM
Lemme guess... you're against bits, shoes, saddles & martingales and all horses should be set free to roam the plains of Wyoming.

Why don't YOU take some St. John's wart and join reality? Seems you're lacking balance.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Asswack Fruitbatting trolls http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Or is this really Tom Cruise????

N&B&T
Jan. 9, 2006, 03:54 AM
How true, big dawg...but, please, apply this to yourself as well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


you don't need to attack when you reply

N&B&T
Jan. 9, 2006, 04:04 AM
I personally believe re-instatement is inappropriate for *all* involved. If this situation doesn't warrant lifetime banning, it is difficult to imagine what would. Sanctions need teeth or they aren't sanctions.

But that is your Opinion, not the current USEF [or former AHSA] Rule...do you believe in following the Rules, or are you for a dictatorship run by you?[/quote]

Yes, big dawg, that is my opinion--that is why it is prefaced by the statement "I personally believe..." You *did* post earlier that you support the expression of differing opinions, did you not? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And, yes, I am a great supporter of following the rules. Nothing I have posted here suggests otherwise. PV is allowed to re-apply. Some apparently feel his application should be denied, and they are organizing their opinions in a formal manner for consideration by decision makers at various levels in the sport.

Finally, am I for a dictatorship run by me? Hmm. I suspect we all have that longing sometime during our lives. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Of *course* a world run by me would be a better--albeit probably a messier--place. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

N&B&T
Jan. 9, 2006, 04:20 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ss3777:


I hope that some of the previous posters that are PV supporters/fans/neutral reflect on this sentiment. Perhaps N&B&T would be so bold as to start a new thread....

_____

I hesitate to do so for obvious reasons. I would like to mention that I have never met PV, and so can have no idea what he feels about his actions.

One of the things I was trying to get at with my post is that perhaps it might be helpful, for a number of reasons, to discuss the re-instatement issue a bit more dispassionately. I recognize this is difficult for many on either side of the fence.

I guess I see it as a policy issue, ultimately. In other words, denying re-admission to people involved in the episode does not have to be a choice between vilification and personal loyalty.

Limerick
Jan. 9, 2006, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
sorry, am not used to these chat room rules and etiquette, etc. this is new for me and i am doing some research for an article i am writing. i was warned about these chat rooms and am finding maybe the warnings were correct. seems there is not much room for differing points of view.

and please you don't need to attack when you reply.

What's your article on? Perhaps you could start your own thread for it? This is the "No Reinstatement" thread, therefore many of us do have the opinion that people who killed horses in cruel ways for insurance money should not get reinstated. They can apply BUT most of us participating on this thread don't believe they should get it.

I'm really not sure why you're introducing your opinion about hunters being drugged? It interrupts the flow of the thread as you have no evidence to support such a wild claim and it has nothing to do with reinstatement.

So, go ahead, start your own thread and I'm sure many of us will help, if we can, with your article. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TWF
Jan. 9, 2006, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
sorry, am not used to these chat room rules and etiquette, etc. this is new for me and i am doing some research for an article i am writing. i was warned about these chat rooms and am finding maybe the warnings were correct. seems there is not much room for differing points of view.

and please you don't need to attack when you reply.


OHHHHH PLEEEZZZZEEEE!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Big Dawg has been on the attack in a few Forums. He even calling me a liar regarding public FN records for a German stallion...he didn't bother to check records pertaining to this horse before quoting the FN for a 30 yr old stallion!! True Grunstein still ranks among the horses in the FN....but he was #1 'in the Day"....no lie!!!

New to this, "not used to the rules"...there is not excuse for your attacks and being RUDE!! .. Writing , researching, no-contributory (except keeping the post on page 1) ,postings numbering over 123 in little over 3 weeks ..Smells like a troll. If you are fishing for an article... ..try to behave like a journalist..

Good idea Limerick

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 9, 2006, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Showponymom:

I agree and to say all hunters are on drugs is wrong. I for one do not drug my horses or ponies when showing. I have not replied to any of your retoric (sp) on this or any of the other treads. We can disagree with people but there is no need to attack.

so you do admit giving them drugs when not showing, or do i misunderstand your statement? i know quite a few big time hunter trainers and those horses are like crack addicts...personally i think the drug rules are too loose and need to be drastically tightened--this is pure animal abuse in its strictest sense. this is not meant as an attack against you or any other responsible show person, but it is pervasive in the industry and you should at least be able to admit that without feeling any personal threat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You most certainly misunderstood, I don't drug my horses period. I take offense to anyone being lumped into your rhetoric about drugging. Unless you see someone personally give the drugs, then don't lump everyone that shows into that catagory. Sure some people do it, but it is a small percentage. There are some really good horses out there that aren't as you put it "crack addits".

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Jan. 9, 2006, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
sorry, am not used to these chat room rules and etiquette, etc. this is new for me and i am doing some research for an article i am writing. i was warned about these chat rooms and am finding maybe the warnings were correct. seems there is not much room for differing points of view.

and please you don't need to attack when you reply.

Anyone knows basic computer ettiqeutte is that caps represent shouting. You make yourself sound like a journalist, if this is true then you need to go back to school. When using an i please capitalize it (I).

Jumphigh83
Jan. 9, 2006, 06:01 AM
Little dog..if you knew me *(which you clearly do not) you would know I dont need to "show off" for you or anyone. I am confident in my vocabulary and dont have to appologize for having a command of the english language...but to you, "That dont make no difference do it?" I will no longer feed the troll.