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scout33
Dec. 14, 2005, 01:16 PM
My mistake I do apologize for not keeping better track of who said what on all the other threads.

Again, Midge I love how you patronize me.

I had thought this was a forum to discuss things whether we shared the same opinions or not without being patronized or attacked verbally at all turns. Maybe that was my mistake, amazing how people respond when there is the element of anonymity.

Kim
Dec. 14, 2005, 01:21 PM
Roseau Platiere

I'm sorry to sound naieve, but was Roseau Platiere actually killed at the Sugarbush horse show?

This whole situation continues to make me feel ill. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Midge
Dec. 14, 2005, 01:28 PM
Patronize you? I apologized and admitted I had made a mistake. Let me try again.

I am sorry anything in the tone of my posts led you to believe I am patronizing you in any way.

You'd be amazed at the things which send posters into attack mode. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Just mention your tack noseband http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

scout33
Dec. 14, 2005, 01:32 PM
I guess it's hard to tell sometimes via email what the tone of a posts is.... sorry thought you were intentionally patronizing me.... just a miscommunication I guess

SmileGee
Dec. 14, 2005, 01:38 PM
I also would like to know more about what was done to these horses to keep them performing prior to making the decision to kill them for their insurance money. You would think people willing to kill would also be willing to mask an injury and sell a lame horse...for the money they were supposed to be worth....Hmmmm....My stomach hurts just thinking about what people do to horses for money..not just this instance but across the board.

Hopeful Hunter
Dec. 14, 2005, 01:48 PM
THANK YOU Liz! I've signed, told about 900 friends on another list and also made a very small donation to the site.

Thank you for not just talking, but DOING something and for giving so many others an easy, effective way to participate!

Perfect Pony
Dec. 14, 2005, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by scout33:
I had thought this was a forum to discuss things whether we shared the same opinions or not without being patronized or attacked verbally at all turns. Maybe that was my mistake, amazing how people respond when there is the element of anonymity.

Funny that, we could say the same thing about you? It appears you joined 2 days ago only to defend PV - who exactly are YOU?

Amazing how some people don't have a problem defending someone who lied, cheated and murdered a horse when there is an element of anonymity.

anthem35
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:03 PM
OK-Now you are really all going too far...You wonder what was making these horses perform prior to the incident? Are you accusing the name in question of a crime based on your limited knowledge? I am certain that throughout the very thorough process of investigation that ensued had there been any evidence of cruel training methods they most certainly would have surfaced.
As a boarder at AWF, I can say that the training methods I witnessed at another 'local show barn' were unlike anything I have witnessed at Pauls...
Is there any way to press charges for 'tack rails'? or depriving horses of food completely, because they are a bit 'too fresh'? perhaps chasing them around an indoor with a lunge whip, to the point of a possible career ending injury? Merely because said 'trainer' is afraid of getting on a frisky horse? Or a hard punch in the face of a horse that might nip?
But yet these 'trainers' are allowed to continue their cruel and unusual practices and refer to it as 'training...'?
I think it is fair to say that Pauls ability as a trainer is not in question, moreso his judgement.
Let's try to stay focused.

scout33
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Perfect Pony:


Funny that, we could say the same thing about you? It appears you joined 2 days ago only to defend PV - who exactly are YOU?

First I don't think it's any of your business who I am. But since you choose to attack me and my reasons for joining I will respond.

I had been a member on these forums previously but forgot all my information as I had my laptop stolen when my car was broken into. The authorities told me to create all new screen names passwords etc on anything that was on my computer since identity theft is a big issus. SO, no I did not just join to defend PV and how dare you question me and my intentions on this forum. I am doing what everyone else does on this forum, which is express an opinion which I, as are you are entitled to, regardless if we agree or disagree.

I also am an active member in the H/J community and have been for over 20 years. SO sorry I haven't been able to post over 3000 times like you have.

Duffy
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:11 PM
anthem - I was referring to all of the horses killed and their trainers. And imo, it wasn't a stretch to wonder.

lauriep
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:27 PM
I don't think you want to get into discussing training methods, PV's or anyone else's, now or 30 years ago. Suffice it to say, when a trainer/rider wants to win, the horse will be "trained" by whatever method is deemed useful. What is considered actually "cruel" is a judgement call, but the methods used are most certainly not classical horsemanship. So, since PV wouldn't be unique in this. Some of the most worshiped trainers mentioned on this BB all use the same methods...

Timex
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:30 PM
i've asked before, what makes everyone think that he will even apply for reinstatement? you are all so convinced that he has been coaching/training/schooling/whatever from the parking lot (i've never seen it, so who knows if it's true) so he's proven that he doesn't need his membership, so why should he bother to aplly? anyone know? i mean, if he's gotten around it for this long, then why not keep avoiding it, and avoiding having to pay the $$$ that everyone complains about having to shell out every year?

Perfect Pony
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by scout33:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Perfect Pony:


Funny that, we could say the same thing about you? It appears you joined 2 days ago only to defend PV - who exactly are YOU?

First I don't think it's any of your business who I am. But since you choose to attack me and my reasons for joining I will respond.

I had been a member on these forums previously but forgot all my information as I had my laptop stolen when my car was broken into. The authorities told me to create all new screen names passwords etc on anything that was on my computer since identity theft is a big issus. SO, no I did not just join to defend PV and how dare you question me and my intentions on this forum. I am doing what everyone else does on this forum, which is express an opinion which I, as are you are entitled to, regardless if we agree or disagree.

I also am an active member in the H/J community and have been for over 20 years. SO sorry I haven't been able to post over 3000 times like you have.

I'm not questioning your intentions, merely pointing out that you are in fact hiding behind your anonymity. And I do believe your intentions were to join to defend PV, why else have you just joined 2 days ago and have 18 posts in 2 days only on these 2 threads?

I don't care if you defend him or not, voice your opinion or not. I was just pointing out that what you are accusing others of doing you are doing yourself.

And fwiw I may have a lot of posts...that would be because I am busy supporting myself with a job sitting in front of a computer 10+ hours a day and multi-task which includes convesing with people so I don't go brain dead.

Duffy
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:44 PM
I agree in that I'm sure there's a grey area regarding different training techniques by many famous and not-so-famous trainers. But, for those who resorted to killing unsuccessful horses, it does beg the question, imo. Did, or how much did, these horses suffer before being murdered? Actually, maybe I don't want to know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

anthem35
Dec. 14, 2005, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Perfect Pony:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scout33:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Perfect Pony:


Funny that, we could say the same thing about you? It appears you joined 2 days ago only to defend PV - who exactly are YOU?

First I don't think it's any of your business who I am. But since you choose to attack me and my reasons for joining I will respond.

I had been a member on these forums previously but forgot all my information as I had my laptop stolen when my car was broken into. The authorities told me to create all new screen names passwords etc on anything that was on my computer since identity theft is a big issus. SO, no I did not just join to defend PV and how dare you question me and my intentions on this forum. I am doing what everyone else does on this forum, which is express an opinion which I, as are you are entitled to, regardless if we agree or disagree.

I also am an active member in the H/J community and have been for over 20 years. SO sorry I haven't been able to post over 3000 times like you have.

I'm not questioning your intentions, merely pointing out that you are in fact hiding behind your anonymity. And I do believe your intentions were to join to defend PV, why else have you just joined 2 days ago and have 18 posts in 2 days only on these 2 threads?

I don't care if you defend him or not, voice your opinion or not. I was just pointing out that what you are accusing others of doing you are doing yourself.

And fwiw I may have a lot of posts...that would be because I am busy supporting myself with a job sitting in front of a computer 10+ hours a day and multi-task which includes convesing with people so I don't go brain dead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this a BB a meritocracy based on the number of posts? Is your opinion weighted more consideribly with each 1,000 posts?

What personal statisitics qualifies ones opinion?
Do we all need to file our names, DOB's and SS#'s in order for our voice to count?

I respect anyone who has joined the BB to be heard, whether they are, or not, in favor of reinstatement or tack nosebands...everyone is entitled to their own opinion, regardless of the lenght and basis of their membership.

Let people's personal security be just that-personal.

Perfect Pony
Dec. 14, 2005, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by anthem35:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Perfect Pony:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scout33:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Perfect Pony:


Funny that, we could say the same thing about you? It appears you joined 2 days ago only to defend PV - who exactly are YOU?

First I don't think it's any of your business who I am. But since you choose to attack me and my reasons for joining I will respond.

I had been a member on these forums previously but forgot all my information as I had my laptop stolen when my car was broken into. The authorities told me to create all new screen names passwords etc on anything that was on my computer since identity theft is a big issus. SO, no I did not just join to defend PV and how dare you question me and my intentions on this forum. I am doing what everyone else does on this forum, which is express an opinion which I, as are you are entitled to, regardless if we agree or disagree.

I also am an active member in the H/J community and have been for over 20 years. SO sorry I haven't been able to post over 3000 times like you have.

I'm not questioning your intentions, merely pointing out that you are in fact hiding behind your anonymity. And I do believe your intentions were to join to defend PV, why else have you just joined 2 days ago and have 18 posts in 2 days only on these 2 threads?

I don't care if you defend him or not, voice your opinion or not. I was just pointing out that what you are accusing others of doing you are doing yourself.

And fwiw I may have a lot of posts...that would be because I am busy supporting myself with a job sitting in front of a computer 10+ hours a day and multi-task which includes convesing with people so I don't go brain dead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this a BB a meritocracy based on the number of posts? Is your opinion weighted more consideribly with each 1,000 posts?

What personal statisitics qualifies ones opinion?
Do we all need to file our names, DOB's and SS#'s in order for our voice to count?

I respect anyone who has joined the BB to be heard, whether they are, or not, in favor of reinstatement or tack nosebands...everyone is entitled to their own opinion, regardless of the lenght and basis of their membership.

Let people's personal security be just that-personal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AGAIN for the last time, I was responding to the poster accusing someone else of hiding behind their anonymity while he/she is in fact doing the exact same thing, 10 posts, 100 posts or 1 million posts, I don't care. It's just hypocritical.

Midge
Dec. 14, 2005, 03:05 PM
Anthem, just to bring you up to speed, this is the post to which Pocket Pony was referring.


Originally posted by scout33:I had thought this was a forum to discuss things whether we shared the same opinions or not without being patronized or attacked verbally at all turns. Maybe that was my mistake, amazing how people respond when there is the element of anonymity.

I suppose I could have saved us all this little brou ha ha if I had just responded, 'Hello, Pot? It's me, kettle!'

But, I was wearing my civility cape and just let it go.

Perfect Pony
Dec. 14, 2005, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Midge:
Anthem, just to bring you up to speed, this is the post to which Pocket Pony was referring.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scout33:I had thought this was a forum to discuss things whether we shared the same opinions or not without being patronized or attacked verbally at all turns. Maybe that was my mistake, amazing how people respond when there is the element of anonymity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Midge, It's Perfect Pony, Pocket Pony wouldn't want to be confused for me, she's a much better communicator than I http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I actually thought of changing my username at one point since we often get confused, but then I would be one of those people... can't win!

scout33
Dec. 14, 2005, 03:21 PM
and who are those people?...

scout33
Dec. 14, 2005, 03:25 PM
I apologize that my comments made those feel I am hiding beneath a cloak of anonymity. Midge, I was merely responding to PP questioning my motives and although I did not have to give my reasons for having less than 3000 posts I did respond.

Although after reading how some respond on these posts to a difference of opinion I am not sure I would want my identity broadcast across the message boards.

Midge
Dec. 14, 2005, 03:39 PM
Absolutely, scout! I once had someone tell me something to the effect of, for my sake they hoped we'd never meet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Snowbird
Dec. 14, 2005, 04:04 PM
Oh! Come on Cowboy it up! It doesn't matter who you are if you're not one of them then you're nobody; whoever you might be!

I wish the number of posts mattered as to whether or not you're believable or even immune to abuse. It doesn't!

I have only dropped in once or twice because you all were doing very well with a high tone dialog. Those who want to believe that a trainer who kills for money is still a horseman aren't going to change their mind. Ignore them because for whatever benefit they imagine they will earn they have their own purposes.

I signed your petition and my identity has never been a secret. The problem seems to be that this is a whole new generation that has been isolated from the crimes we know have happened. I strongly doubt that anyone has any doubt that snowbird is Vikki Siegel. The chronic whiner and complainer asking questions and raising issues of democracy and fair play for the "little people".

You did raise an interesting question and I doubt we would eb notified that an applicant has requested reinstatement. Communication is not the strong characteristic of the current administration. We would only be notified when they had been forgiven their sins. As to those who may have been reinstated without our notice well as they all say one flaw does not make a culprit.

I suggest that for next year you propose a rule change that requires public notification before the fact and just after the decisions.

BarbB
Dec. 14, 2005, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
You did raise an interesting question and I doubt we would eb notified that an applicant has requested reinstatement. Communication is not the strong characteristic of the current administration. We would only be notified when they had been forgiven their sins. As to those who may have been reinstated without our notice well as they all say one flaw does not make a culprit.

I suggest that for next year you propose a rule change that requires public notification before the fact and just after the decisions.

I am amazed by this. In the dog world when you are suspended or stripped of your privileges it is published for all to see in the AKC Gazette. If you are eligible for re-instatement and you apply...that is also published for all to see. Along with a notice asking all members in good standing with information to contact the AKC.
Suspension also includes much more than showing.....ALL of your dog activities in the purebred dog world are over....done.
I have always felt that the horse world doesn't take violations seriously....the sanctions within the horse world are not serious.
(the legal penalties are a different set of standards)

horserider133
Dec. 14, 2005, 07:01 PM
In poor taste; I apologize

[Deleted by moderator - sorry, that sort of allegation is not allowed]

Boberry
Dec. 14, 2005, 07:15 PM
Oxer, the practice of overcharging is not uncommon in the circles PV deals in. How else did he get contacts for the Sandman? Does he ever talk about it? Did he tell you 15 years ago, "Hey I'm under federal investigation for insurance fraud". Because it was the same time you met him?

slainte!
Dec. 14, 2005, 07:43 PM
horserider133

if you were that concerned about oxer being ripped off, maybe you could have called her 2 years ago when the deal was actually going through.

also, there's a small thing called COMISSION on the A Circuit. To sign up on COTH to PUBLICLY annouce these things is absolutely classless.

Oxer walks, talks, and breathes nothing but pure class. This thread is really making me sick.

Also, on this petition I would love for each person to mention if they personally know each "horse killer" or not. Would be interesting!

horserider133
Dec. 14, 2005, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by slainte!:
horserider133

if you were that concerned about oxer being ripped off, maybe you could have called her 2 years ago when the deal was actually going through.

also, there's a small thing called COMISSION on the A Circuit. To sign up on COTH to PUBLICLY annouce these things is absolutely classless.

Oxer walks, talks, and breathes nothing but pure class. This thread is really making me sick.

Also, on this petition I would love for each person to mention if they personally know each "horse killer" or not. Would be interesting!

I did not know about the prices during the transaction. I also feel as though it is pertinent due to the nature of this thread, as well as in response to particular remarks by Oxer.

[deleted by moderator]

I have not stated anything regarding the character of Oxer. It is a pleasure to watch her compete her horses. I have nothing against her, and I respect her right, and yours, to post here. I am merely pointing out a discrepancy. I did not comment on her class. I imagine that she is a lovely individual.

BTW, I know the trainer in question. I have also lessoned with him.

War Admiral
Dec. 15, 2005, 07:19 AM
93 signatures in 24 hours, nice job y'all!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If we keep it up at that level until April 06, that will be.... a LOT of signatures. Keep circulating this thing.

We are having an ice storm here and I expect to lose power very shortly (it's already flickering, and my puter has rebooted twice!) so I may not be around today as much as I would like. But you can still PM me w/ any questions/comments & I'll pick 'em back up when I can...

Zanny
Dec. 15, 2005, 07:48 AM
I forgot about this happening. I didn't know they got to keep showing. Thanks for coming up with the petition.

Sebastian
Dec. 15, 2005, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by slainte!:

Also, on this petition I would love for each person to mention if they personally know each "horse killer" or not. Would be interesting!


AAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! !!

Why would that be interesting???? Why does it matter!??? Like it or not, PV COMMITTED AND CONFESSED TO TERRIBLE CRIMES!!! And, NOTHING any of us says or does here will change that.

Sadly, we seem to live in a culture where no one seems to believe that there should be consequences for one's actions any more... Especially if that someone is rich and/or famous. Well, I for one, refuse to cave to that trend.

And, trust me, I'm not saying anything here that I would not GLADLY say to their faces.

Seb

BAC
Dec. 15, 2005, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by jetsmom:
This is kind of off topic a little, but one of the things that I found so horrific, is that when the authorities were "on" to what was going on, they heard about a horse that was "scheduled" to be killed. They sent people to stake out the barn and videotape what went on. The video showed a horse having his legs being broken with a crowbar and turned loose so it would look like an accident. THe authorities did not intervene, because they needed to actually catch them filing an insurance claim in order to get them for more than a misdemeanor. After the "perps" left, a vet came out and put the horse down which was truly suffering and going into shock. This video was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, and I think of it everytime the name of one of those involved is mentioned. I find it somehow equally troubling that what they did to that horse was allowed to happen because in the eyes of the law, torturing an animal is somehow a lesser crime than ripping off an insurance company. That seems so wrong to me.
Did anyone else see the video to which I am referring?

I didn't see the tape but I believe this was Streetwise (f/k/a Innisfree).

I'll sign the petition too, I don't believe in forgiveness when it comes to cruelty to animals. Everyone involved in these murders should have received lifetime bans in addition to their jail sentences. Its very disappointing to hear that many of the "big names" in our sport continue to befriend PV and do business with him. Whether a petition will do any good or not we owe it to these horses to try.

I admire you buryinghill2, especially since PV was such a good friend, too bad there are not more people in this business with the courage to turn their backs on these murderers.

shade
Dec. 15, 2005, 01:41 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Oh come on BAC don't you know it's only us little guys that can't move on from this..I mean after all the BNT's & BNR's have moved on...I can't believe how disgusted I still am by all of this. How can someone just move on and forget about what they all did. Not just to the horses but to our sport..oh that's right I"m one of the little people so I don't count.

Kim
Dec. 15, 2005, 02:00 PM
Our society is amazing. Just look at the women who married killers like Ted Bundy and the Menendes brothers after they were convicted and imprisoned for multiple and grisly murders (didn't Ted Bundy kill nearly 70 women?)...And, if I recall correctly, Bundy received thousands of letters from folks who "supported" him. In fact, I believe this convicted killer was described as "intelligent" and "charming." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif In any case, it is sad that many murderers are given "celebrity" status.

I can forgive when someone has taken a life, but cannot forget. Anyone who has maliciously killed, or arranged to kill, a horse should never be allowed to earn a living in the horse world. NEVER. It would be one thing if the death was accidental...but I think it has been well documented that it was not.

lizathenag
Dec. 16, 2005, 11:59 AM
keeping this on the front page. . .
two of my friends have had been unable to add their signatures.
I resent them the link.

War Admiral
Dec. 16, 2005, 12:01 PM
If people can't sign, they need to check and make sure their web browser is accepting cookies.

kb2
Dec. 16, 2005, 02:33 PM
why am I unable to read the signatures on the petition?

poltroon
Dec. 16, 2005, 04:49 PM
Snowbird wins for having a USEF number with only 4 digits. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I was pretty surprised to see that there are 7 digit numbers now!

Esprit
Dec. 16, 2005, 04:50 PM
While I haven't read every page, I am horrified with the events and the thought of these people returning to the equestrian community which they have betrayed.

Are we able to sign this petition being from Canada? Our horses show in the US - but even if they didn't, this is one equine community looking out for the welfare of all animals regardless of what association we belong to right?

I've signed it in any case, but I would like to pass on the link to other Canadian equestrians should our votes count in this particular case.

War Admiral
Dec. 16, 2005, 05:02 PM
Yes, ABSOLUTELY. This is going to the FEI and the USOC, as well as USEF. I want to be able to demonstrate to the FEI that members from ALL of its affiliate countries object.

So please, DO sign, and please pass the link on to anyone you may know both in Canada and overseas.

Thank you!

summerly
Dec. 16, 2005, 05:09 PM
Signing with PLEASURE !!!!!

TB or not TB?
Dec. 16, 2005, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by slainte!:
Also, on this petition I would love for each person to mention if they personally know each "horse killer" or not. Would be interesting!

Well, I for one think they are absolute princes - the epitome of human civilization, the pinnacles of integrity and honor, that which us mere "average" horsepeople shall endeavor to become... Someone mentioned Ted Bundy, and I think that's an appropriate fit. All the charm and "class" in the world do not, under any circumstances imaginable or un-, make up for such atrocities.

Hitler, too, was CHARISMAtic and beloved by millions for his passion and eloquence. He even had an oustanding military record and was a decorated war hero and a respected politician. Then he ordered the deaths of over 6 million people. Really, though, it was just a mistake!! He totally feels bad, and were he still alive he'd be setting up charities all over the world for the families of those whose lives he destroyed. Now THAT is class.

(Wait, did she just compare the horse killers to HITLER?!) You better damn well believe I did. The one quality Hitler has in his favor over these "people" is that at least he believed what he was doing was right.

I don't honestly know what's worse - the people that actually did the crimes, or the people who support them and publicly associate with them. (There, I said it.) Shame. On. You. There's no amount of money you could PAY me to sink to that despicable level. What's the phrase that keeps popping up over the BB? Let your money do the talking. Oddly, if a brand or a tack shop or a trailer company acts unprofessionally and screws someone over, how many people here refuse to buy their product? Yet if a 'professional' commmits heinous crimes against the industry, the animals, the competitors, the insurance companies, the sport itself... then it's a forgiveable mistake.

Wasn't there just a thread about a BB member who may or may not have tried to sell a giveaway horse? Remember how many people publicly ostricised her and spread the word about how they'd never do any sort of business with her? She admitted her error and rectified the situation, and was forgiven. THAT is a mistake. She didn't try to harm anyone, and she genuinely felt remorse at her carelessness. THAT is forgiveable. The acts that the horse muderers did is so infinitely worse that there IS no forgiveness. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive, an idiot, or a potential accomplice.

Hmm... this all sounds quite harsh. I almost am sorry, because I don't generally like to make assumptions about others. However, I'm practicing a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY. The thing I really can't figure out is that $25k or even $250k is NOT that much money. I'm lower middle class and my house is worth far more. (For what it's worth, I'd never kill or hire anyone to kill any animal (even a fish) to 'save' my house, because of the basic principle and morality of the act) Hell, to some of the wealthy elite I know, that is just pocket change. So here's the question - if the horse murderers were willing to order the deaths of innocent animals to recoup a few pennies, what do you think they'd do for more $$? For those of you that train with these 'people,' what if someone offered them a commission to take you and/or your horse out of the game? Hey, hopefully nothing, because these are classy people who've proved their devotion to their clients and their horses many times over. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ss3777
Dec. 16, 2005, 05:15 PM
Wow, the numbers have really grown in 24 hours. Perhaps the patron saint of animals is
blessing this petition http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have forwarded it to all my horsey friends and have been amazed at their quick response to sign.

Long live grass roots.

Esprit
Dec. 16, 2005, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by War Admiral:
Yes, ABSOLUTELY...So please, DO sign, and please pass the link on to anyone you may know both in Canada and overseas.

Thank you!

Linked to EMG - the Canadian counterpart for COTH. Let's hope we can make a difference.

Snowbird
Dec. 16, 2005, 05:28 PM
Now you all know I really am aged. The reason it's rare is most of those with four digits have ceased to participate for one reason or another. Well, it's easy to remember anyway.

What exactly do I win? I never win anything.

Carol Ames
Dec. 16, 2005, 05:32 PM
It's great to "sign " the petition, and, see the number goup!

poltroon
Dec. 16, 2005, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
Now you all know I really am aged. The reason it's rare is most of those with four digits have ceased to participate for one reason or another. Well, it's easy to remember anyway.

What exactly do I win? I never win anything.

I just think it's cool is all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm a whippersnapper with a number from the early 80's.

One of my affiliate assn numbers is 123457. The show secretaries used to always think I was really stupid and trying to fool them. Now I just have a xerox of all my cards and attach it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Snowbird
Dec. 16, 2005, 08:38 PM
Well poltroon I wish some benefits came with it. All I can think of is what a jerk I am. If I had signed up for a Life Membership what a ton of money I would have saved. If I remember correctly it was $500.00 Who knew then I'd still be here? I thought a year or two and I'd be back into Fine Arts. Sure not the brightest bulb in the string. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

hoopoe
Dec. 16, 2005, 09:00 PM
Off topic but I believe Victors number was either one digit or two digit

Limerick
Dec. 17, 2005, 07:08 AM
War Admiral, I notice a lot of people are just signing names. I remember from signing the petition, that one could put name, state, number etc and choose all but name to stay anonymous. Are most people putting their USEF numbers anonymously?

Bumpkin
Dec. 17, 2005, 10:57 AM
Can you put your USEF number down anon?

War Admiral
Dec. 17, 2005, 11:03 AM
Sorry Bumpkin, no, you can't. But you can put down USEF as an organization you're a member of, and just leave your number blank if you don't want to provide it.

I would encourage people, though, to PLEASE put down your state/country of residence. We're getting way too many sigs with just a name...

crackerjack
Dec. 17, 2005, 11:19 AM
Signed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Except I put the wrong association in error http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Perfect Pony
Dec. 17, 2005, 11:25 AM
I for one actually joined the USEF yesterday so I could sign the petition with a number! I had been putting it off for ages, but figured I might as well since it's Dec-Dec now...

It has grown a lot.

Has anyone actually gotten in touch with the USEF? I had thought maybe sending a link to all the addresses on the USEF contact page?

cinnabar
Dec. 17, 2005, 12:23 PM
I'm number 421!

Bumpkin
Dec. 17, 2005, 01:19 PM
I did put the info down, I don't think the Bumpkinette did though.

ss3777
Dec. 17, 2005, 03:04 PM
WA-

when will this go to the "powers to be"?

Thanks,

big dawg
Dec. 17, 2005, 03:45 PM
I can't believe there are this many people with too much time on their hands...I guess all of you are for lifetime banishment of anyone who breaks "any" rule? Or just the rule against animal abuse? Makes me wonder how many of you out of the other side of your mouth are for women being able to abort their babies--makes you wonder. I could never understand someone who thinks an animal life is more valuable than a human life...oh that's right, it is about a woman's right to choose...Anyway, I can see that none of you want to hear whether any of these people are remorseful, or have made any kind of reparations to make up for their mistakes...None of them had a lifetime suspension, all were for a term certain--with a right to petition for reinstatement. And one has already been reinstated...so maybe you guys are just for selective reinstatement on the grounds that if you don't like PV you won't reinstatement him, but someone else, well it's o.k.

Boston Chicken
Dec. 17, 2005, 03:48 PM
No, you didn't just compare murdering an animal in cold blood to abortion did ya? That's just http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif They aren't even comparable.

big dawg
Dec. 17, 2005, 03:51 PM
I bet you think they are different...proves my point exactly!

Boston Chicken
Dec. 17, 2005, 03:55 PM
I hadn't responded on any of these crazy threads - but this was surely one of the most ridiculous things I have read all along. Are they different? Hell yes! In case you need a reminder, abortion is legal in this country. Murdering a horse for insurance fraud is not. And that is only the beginning of the differences. Don't even go there, "big dawg" - think about what you are actually saying. I sincerely think that few anywhere would value a horse's life above a human's - but that is not even what we're talking about.

My response is not about the PV issue at all - your comment just struck me as absolutely insane.

fotie
Dec. 17, 2005, 03:55 PM
ahm, big dawg, I find time for worthwile causes, and this is one of those cases. What makes you think that anyone here will try to even bother make sense of your twisted logic. Didn't see THAT one comming. Killing horses to collect on their insurance policies is aaahhh, well,
i-l-l-e-g-a-l.

MareOne
Dec. 17, 2005, 04:00 PM
Feeding the trolls............

Boston Chicken
Dec. 17, 2005, 04:02 PM
Call me crazy but I am thinking that this greenie may be very close to the situation currently being discussed....

Ghazzu
Dec. 17, 2005, 04:05 PM
If I were a conspiracy maven, I might just think big dawg, having seen how getting down and dirty got the other PV thread yanked, might just be trying to see if that could be accomplished here.

If so, it needs better bait... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Carol Ames
Dec. 17, 2005, 04:08 PM
PLEASE, coulde agree NOt to talk about abortion, politics or religion?

Carol Ames
Dec. 17, 2005, 04:09 PM
PLEASE, could we agree NOt to talk about abortion, politics or religion? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

ss3777
Dec. 17, 2005, 04:27 PM
And one has already been reinstated

Who was reinstated???

Oh and Carol I agree, no abortion, politics or religion.

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Dec. 17, 2005, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Boston Chicken:
Call me crazy but I am thinking that this greenie may be very close to the situation currently being discussed....
I agree, trying to throw fuel on the fire. Its not going to work. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

slainte!
Dec. 17, 2005, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by ss3777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And one has already been reinstated

Who was reinstated???

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nancy Banfield was reinstated last year I believe. She has a working farm in VA. Also note that the Hulick's still own horses and Marion's husband is on the grounds of horse shows all the time. I believe he runs a night check business? (correct me if i am mistaken)

if you were all seriously hardcore about this, you'd do proper research and not aim in on one of the MANY successful people involved with the insurance fraud.

if we're going to compare child molestor's to PV - it's like only keeping Michael Jackson away from young boys and not the rest.

jumpsalot
Dec. 17, 2005, 06:55 PM
who let the DAWGs out? Geez, I have a number under 100!

philosoraptor
Dec. 17, 2005, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
...oh that's right, it is about a woman's right to choose...Anyway, I can see that none of you want to hear....

How does one get from banning competitors who have been caught killing horses to (human) abortion rights/protesters? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I can't believe there is even a debate about a "horseman" who has been caught killing one of his horses for profit/greed/stupidity? Is it so hard to find equestrians who want to ride at higher levels that we're scared to ban the ones who need to be out?

If you're caught doing serious enough animal abuse and are convicted, in many places you may be banned from keeping that kind of animal again. So why would these riders be even allowed to be around horses much less compete on them?

A Horse of Course
Dec. 17, 2005, 08:32 PM
My morality, and what is seen as basic right and wrong, is not at all based on what is legal and illegal.
The killing of these horses for *money, greed whatever* is not what makes me drop my jaw in horror. I read about people committing fraud and steeling a lot. It is that horses were brutally and inhumanely killed. I am sick of thinking about the way they were killed, and hate to write it down again. But I know, (and hope), that most of you know.
Yes, I hate the reason they were killed for very much too, but the way they were killed it was gives me nightmares.

On abortion:
For whatever side you are on, you should know the difference between a humane killing, which to me means the least painful route possible, and an INhumane killing, no regard for the pain, or in this case brutal and torturous.

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 17, 2005, 09:03 PM
Going back the bracelet idea (I know, several pages back), I have (or rather, will have at the end of the month) some bracelets in red that read NO REINSTATEMENT. If you would like one, please PM me. I'll send out the ones I have.

big dawg
Dec. 17, 2005, 09:19 PM
I knew the crazies were on board this petition...let's see, abortion is good because it is "humane killing", while killing an animal is bad because it is an "inhumane killing"...am I in Nazi Germany?
You folks just don't get it...you are not the judge and jury on this matter. These people were suspended for a certain time period--not for life regardless of your personal point of view.
They have a right under the rules that govern us to petition to be readmitted as members...heaven forbid any of you have ever done anything wrong and have to ask for someone's forgiveness...I would hope you receive better than you are willing to dish out.

big dawg
Dec. 17, 2005, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Boston Chicken:
I hadn't responded on any of these crazy threads - but this was surely one of the most ridiculous things I have read all along. Are they different? Hell yes! In case you need a reminder, abortion is legal in this country. Murdering a horse for insurance fraud is not. And that is only the beginning of the differences. Don't even go there, "big dawg" - think about what you are actually saying. I sincerely think that few anywhere would value a horse's life above a human's - but that is not even what we're talking about.

My response is not about the PV issue at all - your comment just struck me as absolutely insane.

You seem to think that if it is legal then it is o.k. to do it...no personal sense of right and wrong...if the speed limit says 55 then by God pedal to the metal we will do 55 regardless of the conditions or what otherwise [to someone who is using the thinking part of their brain] appears correct. Sounds like the Nazis are in charge...just pass the law saying it is legal to kill the jews...and it is o.k. to you. You don't get it.
I knew you liberals were running this petition drive...a bunch of crazed animal rights terrorists. Petitioning is fine if you want to push your point of view. But recognize it is just that...we must follow the Rules, remember. That is what is "legal" here. These folks were suspended for a time, not forever. They, just an any athlete in any sport controlled by the Intl Olympic Committee has appeal and reinstatement rights...you want those rights to kill your baby, but won'e give a lesser right to someone else? Proving my point once again.

HARROLDhasmyheart
Dec. 17, 2005, 09:32 PM
bigdawg--From abortion to reinstatement to Nazi Germany...PLEASE JUST STOP. I realize that this is a sensitive issue, as are all of the others that you have brought up. Please do not try and force your beliefs upon others, or call them "crazies" just because they do not agree with what you have to say.

So please, stop?

Chanel05
Dec. 17, 2005, 09:39 PM
Clearly, the horse killers have received much better than they "dished out". Look at PV, Dana Waters and others: they're thriving in the horse world, and to them horses are and always will be a means to an end...money.

As a paid membership organization, the USEF should hear and take into account ALL members' opinions regarding issues--we DO have a say and we SHOULD have a say in matters that directly pertain to us.

The future of our sport is in jeopardy if the USEF or others show in any way that such inhumane behavior can be so easily forgotten.

Boston Chicken
Dec. 17, 2005, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by big dawg:
You seem to think that if it is legal then it is o.k. to do it...no personal sense of right and wrong...if the speed limit says 55 then by God pedal to the metal we will do 55 regardless of the conditions or what otherwise [to someone who is using the thinking part of their brain] appears correct. Sounds like the Nazis are in charge...just pass the law saying it is legal to kill the jews...and it is o.k. to you. You don't get it.
I knew you liberals were running this petition drive...a bunch of crazed animal rights terrorists. Petitioning is fine if you want to push your point of view. But recognize it is just that...we must follow the Rules, remember. That is what is "legal" here. These folks were suspended for a time, not forever. They, just an any athlete in any sport controlled by the Intl Olympic Committee has appeal and reinstatement rights...you want those rights to kill your baby, but won'e give a lesser right to someone else? Proving my point once again.

What a bunch of malarkey. My point was devoid of anything except to point out that comparing one crime to a legal act (right choice or wrong is up to each individual) is nonsense. How you go from horse killing, to abortion, to speeding, to Nazis, to liberals, and "animal rights terrorists" is a mystery to me. To each their own I guess...

HARROLDhasmyheart
Dec. 17, 2005, 10:01 PM
BostonChicken--That's what I was trying to say, but it didn't exactly come across at all like that!

It makes no sense...and I don't think that anyone will EVER understand what's going through big dawg's mind.

hiddenlake
Dec. 18, 2005, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Boston Chicken:
In case you need a reminder, abortion is legal in this country. Murdering a horse for insurance fraud is not...


You seem to think that if it is legal then it is o.k. to do it...no personal sense of right and wrong...I knew you liberals were running this petition drive...a bunch of crazed animal rights terrorists....But recognize it is just that...we must follow the Rules, remember. That is what is "legal" here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you realize how you're contradicting yourself? A person could get dizzy trying to unspin all the doublespeak that's in your post. One minute you chastise posters for standing behind the law, the next paragraph you tell them to follow USEF rules. Then you have the cajones to tell us we have no personal sense of right or wrong. Do you have any clue how completely ridiculous that sounds when you're trying to support someone who inflicted unspeakable pain on a horse for the sake of greed?

And for heaven's sake, you have no freaking clue how most of us feel about abortion, it has nothing, zippo, nada to do with this discussion. Stop using it as a point, because it isn't a point. That said, if anyone ever knocks you up without your consent, I wager we'll support your right to make a choice about whatever it is you spawn. Mostly because we'd feel so deeply sorry for the little guy.

JustJump
Dec. 18, 2005, 06:13 AM
dawg, using your logic (and I do see it) anyone who does agree that abortion=legally santioned murder (which occurs for the sake of social convenience, whether societal or individual), will, in all likelihood, be taking a hard line on the reinstatement issue...You are only taking a wild guess at how anyone feels on the "choice" issue. In using that "card," I think you have just given yourself a big bite in the foot. You might try taking it out of your mouth...

Those suspended committed the most utterly, gravely, wrong crimes--these were premeditated, deliberate acts aimed at defrauding for the purpose of financial gain. Along the way, they inflicted immense pain and suffering upon the innocent creatures they were charged with protecting and caring for.

All that being said, I'm not on the fence about whether they should be allowed to make their case for reinsatement--that's the process we need to respect. What the outcome should be is another story; IMO, it rightly should be an uphill battle for them, but isn't up to me or an internet lynching mob.

CANTEREOIN
Dec. 18, 2005, 06:31 AM
Ghazzu is right, Big Dawg is more about closing this thread than the issue at hand. And I like the message:

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS, DROP RELIGION AND POLITICS FROM THE THREAD!

Midge
Dec. 18, 2005, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by big dawg:They have a right under the rules that govern us to petition to be readmitted as members...heaven forbid any of you have ever done anything wrong and have to ask for someone's forgiveness...I would hope you receive better than you are willing to dish out.

I absolutely agree they have a right to petition to be readmitted as members, just as we have the right to oppose that readmittance. I am continually surprised that for some, forgiveness seems equal to thinking it never happened.

Silk
Dec. 18, 2005, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Boston Chicken:
Call me crazy but I am thinking that this greenie may be very close to the situation currently being discussed....

yeah...PV himself got himself an account the day Oxer showed him the thread. He does have the right to respond, of course, but I take offense at the abortion issue.

Now, my opinioin of PV is quite ambivelant. I have had contact with him,; he was quite charming and lovely (kind, complementary, etc). He cared about my horse, yada...yada...

I would take lessons with him,perhaps (i did once). I do not think he should be reinstated (the two are very different issues)

I do not forgive him for what he did, nor will I ever forget. I have always had the same issue with trainers - horses are definitely a commodity. They have to be in order for business to succeed. I dont like the horse world and I dont like trainers as a breed. I am not even that hot on the whole horse show thing becasue of this. But I digress....my point was that I do think Big Dawg is PV (or maybe Goldy)

ohnowwhat
Dec. 18, 2005, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by Silk:
yeah...PV himself got himself an account the day Oxer showed him the thread....
....my point was that I do think Big Dawg is PV (or maybe Goldy)

I agree. Timing is just too coincidental for me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Limerick
Dec. 18, 2005, 07:34 AM
Nah, it's not goldy, goldy would have mentioned Joe Plemmons.

Anyone know USEF's history of action in regard to members applying for reinstatement?

DMK
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:30 AM
big dawg, if you actually have a point to make, Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) is no way to go about it.

JustJump
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:35 AM
DMK, just how and where DO you come across this stuff?!

lyrical
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by DMK:
big dawg, if you actually have a point to make, Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) is no way to go about it.

What a great link, DMK! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I'm sure there is a corollary in there about abortion, politics and/or religion!

Big Dawg...What you are experiencing, is simply an example of actions leading to consequences. The killing of a horse for insurance money, may be no more heinous to some people than using arson as a means of insurance fraud. However, in the horse community, it is one of the most egregious crimes anyone could commit. A significant number of the community's members will never welcome the offenders back to the fold.

That is something the the guilty will simply have to live with, whether they or anyone else thinks it's fair, or not.

slainte!
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:46 AM
i highly DOUBT Big Dawg is PV. he's not a fan of the internet or computers at all.

also, he's a busy man. much too busy to be monitoring what everyone thinks about him!

and big dawg, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stay annonymous on this issue.

Jumphigh83
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by slainte!:

also, he's a busy man. much too busy to be monitoring what everyone thinks about him!


I doubt it..but there is no such thing as bad publicity I guess.
PS He probably has "little people" for that!

KSF
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:05 AM
Slante! I was just going to post the same thing. Paul is out mucking his barn and teaching lessons while we are all playing on our computers.
I hope that Paul has never read this stuff and if he has it is only becase someone showed it to him....he is lucky if he can get his voicemail on his cell phone to work...not a gizmo kind of guy!

Jumphigh83
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:07 AM
Mucking his barn??????????hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahaha gasp.....sigh.

Himbo
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:12 AM
Noooooooooo Jumphigh he wasnt out mucking his stalls he was busy with his electrician making sure all the electrical outlets were all in good working order

hiddenlake
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by KSF:
...he is lucky if he can get his voicemail on his cell phone to work...not a gizmo kind of guy!

If only that were true, he wouldn't be suspended now, would he? Seems his use of gizmos is what got him in trouble. Perhaps you're right, it's best if he stays away from them...

slainte!
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Mucking his barn??????????hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahaha gasp.....sigh.

Obviously, you know nothing about the man in question. He mucks daily and arrives with or before all his staff. His day starts and ends with stalls.

Jumphigh83
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:34 AM
Obviously, you know nothing about the man in question. He mucks daily and arrives with or before all his staff. His day starts and ends with stalls.
Lucky me.....
I have been SLAIN...somehow an approriate name...

Himbo
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:36 AM
Jumphigh did you hear that thunderous thud??? I think it was your barnfull of horses dropping to their knees and kissing the ground because of the fact you don't associate with PV>

Jumphigh83
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:38 AM
At least it wasnt the thud of them hitting the ground and convusing from AC current...maybe we should start and aligator clip clique.......

slainte!
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:40 AM
Slainte is gaelic for "cheers", FYI!

Jumphigh83
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:44 AM
Well that would be a good thing if we were in Ireland but in my country SLAIN means DEAD.

Himbo
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:45 AM
With both my parents coming frm Ireland I'm ashamed to think that you might be Irish but Im guessing you are a honorary member of the Welly World Yenta contingent in which case that would negate you being Irish http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

slainte!
Dec. 18, 2005, 10:07 AM
oh for pete's sake it's a SCREEN NAME!

buryinghill2
Dec. 18, 2005, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by slainte!:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Mucking his barn??????????hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahaha gasp.....sigh.

Obviously, you know nothing about the man in question. He mucks daily and arrives with or before all his staff. His day starts and ends with stalls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When did he start doing that? He certainly never used to do any barn work, there was plenty of staff for that. He always was one of the first and last trainers on the show grounds, but he wasn't mucking stalls.

slainte!
Dec. 18, 2005, 10:37 AM
I'm not sure when he "started" doing barn work, perhaps now because he doesn't have as many horses as before. Sure, he has a good size staff still - but I can assure you that he mucks out, especially on Mondays.

Snowbird
Dec. 18, 2005, 10:44 AM
OH! OK! fess up who let the dawgs out? Someplace is searching for their escapee.

Dawg did you open the pen and let out all those trolls? Don't you know you can't trust the trolls that's why they all were fenced in or out as the case maybe.

There is no comparison between abortion and killing horses! one has two legs and the other has four legs and they two different species with different levels of respectabiliy.

Four legged creatures are mmore useful. Look Dawg no one got upset when when Joe Plemmons said he killed Helen Brach for money because she was two legged but everyone got uptight when the horses were killed for money because they were fourlegged.

See! it just what you kill and not who you kill. Now, Hitler wasn't all that bad because he just killed defective two legged creatures who weren't worth anything and he just took what left because they died without a will.

Horses on the other hand are the valuable thing so of course it's much worse to kill something with real value.

In case you don't understand that is toungue in cheek and not foot in mouth! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Please define
Welly World Yenta contingent

Is that a disease or a mental condition?

ohnowwhat
Dec. 18, 2005, 12:37 PM
Both.

KSF
Dec. 18, 2005, 12:59 PM
You guys are all amazing with your funny little statements you can come up with to portray your poit of view. I was simply stating what is fact....I know. Paul is at the barn long before we all were. He would have several stalls mucked by the time I got to work. At the end of the day we would all be getting in our cars and Paul would be mucking again. I don't think that this is that big of a deal, but the fact that you think of things to say that are bad about it.....this whole board is just a joke now.

Zorro
Dec. 18, 2005, 01:06 PM
I'm very surprised that after having 3 or 4 days access to the petition on-line, there are slightly less than 500 signatures.

There seems to be alot of posters on this discussion. Can we all try (again) to get this thread into wider circulation?

IMO, it would be better to spend effort trying to get the issue in front of more people than to respond to off-topic postings. Also, maybe if we absolutely ignore postings by trolls, they will not get the satisfaction of bugging us.

buryinghill2
Dec. 18, 2005, 01:17 PM
Who said anything bad about Paul helping around the barn? I didn't, I just said I had never seen it. Anyway, whether he helps around the barn or not is totally irrelevant. Everyone has his or her job in the barn. Mucking stalls was not Paul's job, teaching was. I wasn't passing judgement on Paul based on whether or not he mucks stalls! I don't know any BNT's that muck, they have their own job to do. I worked for Geoff, Timmy and Leslie for years, they worked harder than any three people I know. None of the work they did had anything to do with taking care of the horses.
Actually, a MILLION years ago, I can remember Paul and Jamie (I said it was a long time ago!), cleaning tack at the end of very long days. Most nights in those days they did not leave until the grooms left.

Aptor Hours
Dec. 18, 2005, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by buryinghill2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slainte!:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
Mucking his barn??????????hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahaha gasp.....sigh.

Obviously, you know nothing about the man in question. He mucks daily and arrives with or before all his staff. His day starts and ends with stalls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When did he start doing that? He certainly never used to do any barn work, there was plenty of staff for that. He always was one of the first and last trainers on the show grounds, but he wasn't mucking stalls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't care if he mucks stalls, cleans horses sheaths, or arrives at 4am he is not an honorable person. I can't imagine telling people "oh yea I train with PV you remember the one that killed the horses" sure sure!

Boberry
Dec. 18, 2005, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by slainte!:
i highly DOUBT Big Dawg is PV. he's not a fan of the internet or computers at all.

also, he's a busy man. much too busy to be monitoring what everyone thinks about him!

and big dawg, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stay annonymous on this issue.

too busy busy with the hundred's or I forgot the THOUSAND's of clents (talk to Oxer about that one-((she's in the next stall)), by the way email C. Boylen-she crashed the party). She hates hidden posters on this subject but I guess that is only when they do not befriend PV.

Duffy
Dec. 18, 2005, 07:15 PM
Huh?

Duffy
Dec. 18, 2005, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by KSF:
You guys are all amazing with your funny little statements you can come up with to portray your poit of view. I was simply stating what is fact....I know. Paul is at the barn long before we all were. He would have several stalls mucked by the time I got to work. At the end of the day we would all be getting in our cars and Paul would be mucking again. I don't think that this is that big of a deal, but the fact that you think of things to say that are bad about it.....this whole board is just a joke now.

I'm so sorry a poster inferred that Paul didn't muck stalls. It's terrible when people stereotype, isn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Heck, my trainers may not be BNT's, but they "do the barn" on Mondays and enjoy the time when the barn is "closed" - to spend time with each horse without clients running around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 07:31 PM
too busy busy with the hundred's or I forgot the THOUSAND's of clents (talk to Oxer about that one-((she's in the next stall)), by the way email C. Boylen-she crashed the party). She hates hidden posters on this subject but I guess that is only when they do not befriend PV.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Boberry
Dec. 18, 2005, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by xegeba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">too busy busy with the hundred's or I forgot the THOUSAND's of clents (talk to Oxer about that one-((she's in the next stall)), by the way email C. Boylen-she crashed the party). She hates hidden posters on this subject but I guess that is only when they do not befriend PV.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sleeping is the best thing for you to do xegeba, let PV do all the "dirty work" at night.

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 07:53 PM
Sleeping is the best thing for you to do xegeba, let PV do all the "dirty work" at night
Boberry... you have become the Howard Dean of the NO REINSTATEMENT cause... and you are boring ... hence the http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Boberry
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Zorro:
I'm very surprised that after having 3 or 4 days access to the petition on-line, there are slightly less than 500 signatures.

There seems to be alot of posters on this discussion. Can we all try (again) to get this thread into wider circulation?

IMO, it would be better to spend effort trying to get the issue in front of more people than to respond to off-topic postings. Also, maybe if we absolutely ignore postings by trolls, they will not get the satisfaction of bugging us.
Trolls find trolls and since we are troll lying people we troll the lowest...or highest (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America)
of trolldom speak. Who rides with Paul Valliere or Paul Revere?

War Admiral
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
I don't have time to read 18 pages, and find out if there is such a thing as an online petition??? Put the link in the first post, and change the heading to say that there is one there, and I bet you will get a lot more..

The link *is* in the first post. It's in my sig. So here it is again.

BTW, might I encourage some of the rest of y'all to put it in your sigs as well? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm not fixin' to play with these trolls at all, I've got no time for 'em. And anyway I've been called worse things than "liberal" in my day! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

To whoever it was that wanted to know when this will be presented to the Powers That Be: I envision around March 06 or thereabouts, to maximize our chances of collecting as many sigs as we can, and also to make sure it's *officially* in their hands before Mr. Valliere becomes eligible to apply for reinstatement.

Unofficially, you can bet they're all watching these threads too.

We're up to 526 signatures BTW. Or thereabouts. There are some "bad" ones that I'll have to toss out. Please DO NOT just put your first name; that does no good at all!

Thanks so much to all who have signed. Please keep crossposting the link both in the USA overseas!!

clint
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:25 PM
I am unable to either access viewing signatures or sign the petition. I would love to sign it, but can't. And yes, my computer does accept cookies.

War Admiral
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:27 PM
clint, do you use AOL? If so, minimize your AOL browser and try with Internet Explorer. Apparently petitiononline and AOL don't work and play well together.

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:35 PM
Just because its fallen back a few pages and I dont know if anybody will read it, I'll post again. I do have NO REINSTATEMENT bracelets being made. Not many, but some. If you would like one, please PM me.

War Admiral
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:38 PM
That's AWESOME, SNL!!!

Thank you!!!!

Limerick
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:54 PM
Does anyone have a pic of Roseau Platiere? I'd like to see a picture of him/her. I would like to think this petition makes Roseau Platiere's death not completely meaningless. I've tried searching but it only finds articles related to PV. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

War Admiral
Dec. 18, 2005, 08:58 PM
I've not been able to find any, either.

Anyone want to take it upon themselves to call the Chronicle & ask them if there are any in back issues?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Boberry
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:03 PM
what they don't read this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Throw us a bone...actually that was bad to say, but it's in their archives, or is it? Help.

War Admiral
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:08 PM
Well, you can always download Mozilla Firefox, Darlyn. It works fine with that.

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:09 PM
Posted Dec. 18, 2005 11:03 PM
what they don't read this Throw us a bone...actually that
yes, Boberry... The Chron is all over this one. i'm shocked that you have not received a PT from them. or IT.

Boberry
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by xegeba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Dec. 18, 2005 11:03 PM
what they don't read this Throw us a bone...actually that
yes, Boberry... The Chron is all over this one. i'm shocked that you have not received a PT from them. or IT. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>yet xegeba you keep posting, keep the politics up, use some religon, when will you realize your kicking a dead horse...

Snowbird
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:26 PM
I was having problems with Internet Explorer and was recommended to Mozilla Firefox by a technician. It's free and it works great. Don't be afraid to try it. Just go to Mozilla.com.

We want every signature!

They are watching 12,640 views and only 340 posts. Considering that's maybe 100 posters with 3 posts each; they are watching to see what we do! So let's do it right! They need to know that the "little" people "will not take it any more".

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:32 PM
yet xegeba you keep posting, keep the politics up, use some religon, when will you realize your kicking a dead horse...
Brobaby...I like you... Why? 'cause you make me look like the NSBC... you get your posters mixed up(Religion? Me?) and you are fun to eff with.

Snowbird
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:37 PM
I got to the sign in page on AOL and actually could have signed again but AOL won't let you see the other signature pages. That's when the error pops up.

Boberry
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:39 PM
oh stop http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif you loff me I know I know

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:43 PM
if you can tell me what NSBC is... then I 'll be thinkin you are smarter than your posting implies.

Boberry
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:46 PM
you just can't stand it...

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:51 PM
you lose. You did not correctly answer the "what does NSBC" question. Perhaps you would have better luck on http://www.scaredmonkeys.com... They love your type of posting.

War Admiral
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:55 PM
Hey xegeba, just wanted to say a big huge thank you for keeping this bumped to the very top of H/J all evening. We really appreciate it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 09:57 PM
My pleasure,WA!!! perhaps a small chat is in order with berry...

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 10:42 PM
Bumping up for all those that were sittin on the fence... but needed a Broberry to make you sign on the dotted line.

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 10:48 PM
broberry? harry? Can we take this moment to do something about Stallion Fighting? You do know that some mares that get shipped off to the Slaughter House( I know ...the owners have the best intentions) are pawns in this grotesque... money making scheme...

xegeba
Dec. 18, 2005, 11:02 PM
Buelllllllllerrrrrrrrr?

FuzzyLogic
Dec. 18, 2005, 11:35 PM
Are posters boberry and broberry related? broberry seems to be pretty sweet and is into tack, while boberry seems a bit obsessed with PV...and lately, oxer and C.Boylen...definitely exhibiting stalker tendencies. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

xegeba
Dec. 19, 2005, 12:07 AM
i'm thinkin the logic is not so Fuzzy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif andandand...I'm so impressed that a former("ambivalent" ...who...gosh...gee.. just askin "I thought I saw paul in the parking lot') ...poster has gone from the camper lot...over the fence... to hang the bastard kinda old guy. And he even has the main gal...Erin... clarifying his posts for him.

Hucklebug
Dec. 19, 2005, 06:13 AM
I signed and my mother signed. Will try to get others to sign.

pcwertb
Dec. 19, 2005, 07:35 AM
I just signed. We are up to 568.

Silver Bells
Dec. 19, 2005, 08:02 AM
After thinking about this over the weekend, I too have signed. It was a tough decision for me.

Lori B
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:05 AM
Silver Bells -- Exactly why was it a hard decision? Specifically how would the reinstatement of convicted animal killers to the USEF be of benefit or value to the equestrian community (not to mention horses themselves)? I am glad you signed, but I continue to not understand what is remotely confusing or equivocal about this decision. ????

Silver Bells
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:23 AM
I believe PV was/is a knowledgeable horseman. I used to watch him work with Jamie Mann and Touch the Sun some years ago and thinking this guy has what it takes.
Whatever motivates people to make choices in their lives can be specualted upon till the end of time. I can forgive people for many things, but not a blatant disregard for the lives of human beings and animals.
I truly believe PV is sorry for his past actions, and with this being said, I can almost
forgive his poor judgement... but not quite.

Silk
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by FuzzyLogic:
Are posters boberry and broberry related? broberry seems to be pretty sweet and is into tack, while boberry seems a bit obsessed with PV...and lately, oxer and C.Boylen...definitely exhibiting stalker tendencies. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I had always admired C. Boylen and was frankly a little surprised at her reaction to this. Perhaps a little disillusioned too.

Duffy
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:36 AM
I haven't seen any posts by Chanda on this subject...

War Admiral
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:40 AM
Please, let's not get into criticizing individual people for what is, after all, a PERSONAL decision whether or not to sign the petition.

I have a lot more sympathy for (and gratitude to) people like Silver Bells and Harryjohnson than you might suspect. I, too, used to be a "keep your head down and your mouth shut b/c you may have to do business with these people some day" person...

What really swung the balance for me was buying Avery. After I started to realize what INSANE stuff had been done to this grand old horse I just decided - you know, the horses can't speak for themselves. So we have to do it for them.

But being brutally honest about it with myself and all y'all - it took me to the age of 45 to work that one out.

So for those who are slowly thinking it through, I'm grateful and I thank you.

Seven
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Duffy:
I haven't seen any posts by Chanda on this subject...

I think they were on the other thread.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:40 AM
That is a tough one Silk, one has to remember C.Boylen is a part of that group, and respect her feelings as such. I disagree wholeheartedly with the train of thought that goes with it, but she, of course, is entitled to her view.

Silver Bells
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:40 AM
Either did I... what did Chanda say?

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:41 AM
.....Alright..here goes fatmouth. It IS a hard decision for those of us who grew up with Paul and many others involved in this. Why would you jump on the very people you need to sign..because they gave it some thought and aren't running around with a lighted torch?! Ages ago, LaurieP posted the most level headed observations I've yet to hear on this thread. Those of us that dealt with big hunter jumper farm all our lives, have seen the underbelly of this industry from day one. [..and we've seen just the opposite too, from kind, true horsemen and women]. Training methods that would make a poor animal WISH for electrocution. None of these people got "caught"..and like Laurie said; Over the years "you draw your own line", have the courage of your [hopefully humane] convictions, and do what you can. Jumping down someone's throat who's come over to your side, because it was a hard descision, hardly seems fair. One can sign without foaming at the mouth. PV has every right to attempt reinstatement. You have every right to challenge this. I guess I just feel ambivalent, as I know the man is no threat. He's in the limelight. The public is watching. His horses are treated beautifully NOW..and my time would be better served helping the hundreds of poor animals going through hell in all the "undiscovered" sales barns from Hell.

War Admiral
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:45 AM
Very well said, RaceTB. With the minor exception that I still don't want him anywhere near MY horse. But that's a personal decision.

khobstetter
Dec. 19, 2005, 09:58 AM
I am aghast by one thing...IMHO he is NOT a good horseman!!!

A man who has children, pays the bills, clothes them, has them in his lap to watch TV and "LOVES" them.....AND BEATS THEM AND THEIR MOTHER SENSELESS ON OCCASION...IS NOT A "GOOD FATHER".!!! IMHO

Likewise...a man who feeds his horses, brushes them till they shine, shows them to the winners ring....and every so often KILLS one for the pure money of it...IN JUST SIMPLY NOT A "GOOD HORSEMEN". !!!! IMHO

No matter the pressure...a "GOOD HORSEMAN" is a good horseman every day of his life and would NEVER EVER stoop to that!!!! "GOOD HORSEMANSHIP" is more than mucking the stall, "even when he was at the top"....IMHO!!!

CBoylen
Dec. 19, 2005, 10:46 AM
Either did I... what did Chanda say?
Well, since you're all so interested, Chanda said roughly the following, after being totally incensed at the treatment of another poster by a group of people on the "other" thread, and called out by name by Boberry to give an opinion:

There is no power on this earth that could force me to put my name to a piece of paper touted and signed by people who recently made light of the death of a good friend of mine, for the purpose of embarrassing and hurting his widow.

I like Paul, and I respect his right to apply for reinstatement. I respect the rights of his friends, customers, employees and riders to make their own decisions, and I call many of them friends. For that very reason, I feel my personal opinion should have no influence on the subject of his reinstatement. It falls, and should fall, under the impersonal decision making process of our national governing body.

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 19, 2005, 10:56 AM
AMEN.

Timex
Dec. 19, 2005, 10:56 AM
and i have to agree with Chanda. no, i don't know PV, and have no dog in this fight (hell, membership? what membership?). i do not, in any way, shape or form, condone what he did. however, this thread, and all of the related threads, have left me feeling so uncomfortable and unsettled that there is no way in hell i'm signing that petition. who called it a mob mentality? ordinarily, i'd be the first to tout the GOOD that COTHers can do. but in this case, i would really rather not have my name associated with it. i respect everyone's efforts to try to prevent PV's reinstatement (although, no one has been able to answer my questions, from several pages back, why are you all so sure that he is going to apply at all?), but the tone taken by many of the posters, attacking PV's clients, stating some inaccurate information, and seemingly turning this into a personal attack on PV (even though it shouldn't be, and i beleive the petition was intended to be a way to keep any of those involved from being reinstated, not just PV) makes my stomach turn.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Either did I... what did Chanda say?
Well, since you're all so interested, Chanda said roughly the following, after being totally incensed at the treatment of another poster by a group of people on the "other" thread, and called out by name by Boberry to give an opinion:

There is no power on this earth that could force me to put my name to a piece of paper touted and signed by people who recently made light of the death of a good friend of mine, for the purpose of embarrassing and hurting his widow.

I like Paul, and I respect his right to apply for reinstatement. I respect the rights of his friends, customers, employees and riders to make their own decisions, and I call many of them friends. For that very reason, I feel my personal opinion should have no influence on the subject of his reinstatement. It falls, and should fall, under the impersonal decision making process of our national governing body. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Chanda and the rest of you who follow the same train of thought. While I do respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion, the recent mudslinging on this topic has made me a little annoyed..

It is MY understanding, from someone who does groom for him, that he has no intention on reinstating. That's what "I" hear. Did I hear it straight from his mouth? NOPE, just via the horseshow grapevine.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BLBGP
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:07 AM
There is no power on this earth that could force me to put my name to a piece of paper touted and signed by people who recently made light of the death of a good friend of mine, for the purpose of embarrassing and hurting his widow.

Was it more than just the one wayward soul who first made the downright mean statement? If so, that's just plain yucky.

Duffy
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:10 AM
Unfortunately, this issue has become what any other emotionally charged issue has turned into here. The extreme sides are, well, too extreme. Passion is a good thing - when it's not hateful. I don't hate PV. I hate what he did.

I have a very dear friend who has a somewhat different opinion on this issue. We talk about it passionately. But, we listen and respect each other's opinions.

I signed the petition because I do not wish any horse killers to be allowed back into our USEF, a body which is supposed to be about the horses' welfare.

If PV does apply for reinstatement and it is granted, I won't stop showing. That is my choice as well.

I would never dream of putting my horse in his care, even though I truly don't think he would ever do such a thing again. There are a few BNT's who haven't been convicted of this crime that I wouldn't dream of putting my horse with either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seven
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:11 AM
Every thread on this issue causes a lot of emotion on both sides -- that's not new and no one should be surprised by it.

Even so, I'm not sure I see how that turns a member driven/grass roots petition into a 'bad thing'. Just because you don't like one thread, a group of BBer's, or even one individual doesn't make the petition bad.

I'm sure when I'm presented with petitions on other topics (e.g., someone running for office) that there would be names on the petition I don't like and people I don't generally agree with. But I don't scrutinize who signed the petition, I just read the begining and see if I agree with the statement and add my name to the bottom if it's true for me.

A lot of people have signed the petition in question who don't read these boards -- it's not about threads...or the people involved. For me, it's about the principle.

Duffy
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:13 AM
Same with me, Seven.

Seven
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:14 AM
LOL! I was just about to add "Well said, Duffy"

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Silver Bells
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:21 AM
HERE HERE SEVEN !!!

Silk
Dec. 19, 2005, 11:35 AM
Not to rehash it, but that past thread had a lot of innapropriateness on both sides. The entire thread itself was innapropriate to start, but that is not the point.

Although I dont think he should be reinstated, I wont sign a petition either. It reminds me too much of the Salem witch trials or Nazi Germany. The decision is best left to the organization who is involved.

Chanda - I just was a little surprised by your loyalty to him, that's all. I still think you are a remarkably bright and well spoken young woman with a wealh of knowledge that you graciously share.

I do think the threads get hot and nasty becasue of the subject matter. I can only speak for myself, but my horse is so much more than a show horse (actually he is not really a show horse unless a talented pony jock is on him) He is my family member, my buddy, my childwrapped up in one. He has dissapointed me as well as a nuimber of well known NE trainers but I fought them all and kept him. I am pretty sure a lot of members here feel the same (I know BC does). To us, the idea of killing our buddies becasue they wont jump or wont win is just mind boggling. But then again, I chose not to move up and stay with him instead.

That's where most of those nasty posts were coming from.

nycjumper
Dec. 19, 2005, 12:32 PM
I am sorry the other thread degenerated into a nasty mud-slinging mess.

I signed the petion. I don't know Paul V but from all I hear, he is an incredibly gifted horse trainer. However,the crimes he was convicted of & his culpability in Roseau Platiere's death supercedes his training abilities (IMO). I believe that allowing him back into the USEF as a member in good standing would make the USEF mission statement a farce. And I think this holds true for everyone convicted in this case.

Also FWIW, I have lots of problems with people screaming at those who choose to train with PV or defend him. I don't & wouldn't but that's my CHOICE. And other people have the right to make their own decisions on the subject. Calling them nasty names isn't going to change their minds & it completely discredits the petition.

JustJump
Dec. 19, 2005, 12:32 PM
<<Not to rehash it>

Oh brother...to think I came in for lunch and this was the first post I've read today...

Got any paper towels?

Silk
Dec. 19, 2005, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by JustJump:
<<Not to rehash it

Oh brother...to think I came in for lunch and this was the first post I've read today



Perhaps you should read some of the posts leading to mine before you trash it like that. I felt Chanda deserved a response, since I did make the mistake of using her name in a post without any direct communication with her. I was trying to right a wrong, so to speak becasue I respect her. Hence, the "not to rehash..." statement. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif


Got any paper towels?

You dont need them if you just swallow http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Lori B
Dec. 19, 2005, 01:28 PM
When I asked why the decision whether to sign the petition or not was perceived as difficult, I wasn't trying to be nasty, I was just trying to make sure that there aren't any relevant facts of which I am unaware. Haven't heard anything yet that makes me feel ambivalent. And I don't understand how the opposition to reinstatement by many of us can be characterized as personal, since I certainly am not personally acquainted with any of the people in question. But I am able to read the crimes they have been convicted of, which in this case is enough.

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 19, 2005, 01:40 PM
I think that's what I'm trying to say...Lots of us ARE personally aquainted with most of set-down folks, and have PLEASANT histories with them in every way. Years of GOOD association make it all the more difficult to get my mind around, in most cases, this one dastardly deed. Like some others, I'll be slow to judge and leave it to the USEF.

poltroon
Dec. 19, 2005, 02:21 PM
BTW, I don't have any problem with anyone who chooses not to sign the petition. It's a public document and there are many reasons someone might not wish to sign regardless of one's feelings on the issue.

PV is up for reinstatement earlier than most because he assisted in the conviction of the other players by wearing a wire. I consider that to be in his favor.

On the other hand, he's IMHO violated the spirit if not the letter of the rules of suspension by actively schooling competitors for classes at USEF competitions. Notice I didn't say "training horses" or "giving lessons" both of which are outside the USEF jurisdiction. IMHO, renting a farm adjacent to showgrounds, warming people up and generally participating in a recognized show even though he didn't technically set foot on the grounds is a failure to accept the terms of the disciplinary action.

It seems to me that he is likely to reapply, given the new rule changes that make it more obvious that having an assistant employed by a suspended person who is representing that person is not OK. But what do I know.

I signed the petition not because I hate PV - I don't know him and I don't hate him. I signed it because I think it's important that the Federation know that there is a lot of consternation about reinstating him. I don't think someone who has been actively undermining the spirit of the rules of the Federation for the past 10 years is an asset as a member.

Lori B
Dec. 19, 2005, 02:22 PM
And that's where we part company, racetb. Years of friendly association with those parties is not something I regard as relevant. Tragic and conflicting, but not relevant. If there were facts that called into question their participation in the crimes, those I would regard as relevant. So far, no such facts have been offered.

People sometimes have a frightening ability to compartmentalize their actions and attitudes. With one group of interactions, they are lovely, kind, well-behaved. With another: quite different. The ability to do this sudden and complete change of face does not make the person less blameworthy for their misdeeds. Sorry.

Also don't understand why folks are suddenly so deferential to the organization, saying we should let them make decisions for us poor dopes. If this were some fine point of rules about points or classes or fences or whatever, fine, yes, leave it to the professionals. But this is not such a case.

Vandy
Dec. 19, 2005, 02:46 PM
Racetb, I can really relate to your position. I rode with PV years ago, and while his actions certainly changed the respect and admiration I once had for him, I am uncomfortable with actively participating in his persecution. I actually got in an argument last night with my SO because he feels this issue is totally cut and dry, right vs. wrong (he has never met PV or any of the other folks involved). Looking back, I realize that a big part of the reason I left the horse business for years was that I felt let down by many in the business who were involved in this or other dishonest dealings. I think that many, many other people share these feelings, and while it may anger others, there are many reasons one would choose not to sign the petition. It doesn't mean that we think that PV is god, St. Francis, or anything else.

Did that make any sense at all?

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:10 PM
Yes Vandy!!! Thank you!!...it's not a frightening ability to compartmentalize, Lori B. It's just weird to jump on the bandwagon over a a wrong that has been exposed [and punished]...when you met some of the accused over breakfast every day for a zillion years..were HELPED by some of these folks and never saw an inhumane tendency whatsoever in your own personal dealings with them. Notice that almost everyone personally exposed to PV [and others] has misgivings about the turn this thing has taken. ...and yes, I've disliked our "powers that be" since the AHSA in the 1960's. Perhaps you're right about shrugging my shoulders and letting our FINE organizations take care of things...but I just can't get the picture of a torch bearing lynch mob out of my head when I read through these posts. Again, I'll draw my line in the sand and live with it..and turn my efforts to the still suffering horses in the forgotten, under the radar, Hell barns that are still out there flourishing.

lyrical
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:12 PM
Very few things in life are black and white judgement calls. Few of us are privy to all the information associated with the actions of another person. From where I stand, what ever circumstances led to PV being in a position where the only way out he could see, was to kill a horse, were brought about as a result of previous bad decisions he made. And for those decisions which ultimately led to killing a horse for insurance money, there are, and should be, consequences.

I don't know PV, so the decision to sign was a lot easier for me than for some others. If I knew him personally, and felt what he did was way out of character, or there were extenuating circumstances, who knows how I'd feel about the re-instatement issue. So I do not agree with those who can forgive and forget, but I don't think they are "bad" to feel the way they do. Hell, if I can "forgive" those who voted for GW, I can "forgive" those who don't want to sign the petition. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The mob mentality that sometimes overtakes otherwise intelligent people on the BB, is frightening to see, however. I'm glad we can take a collective breath, and start thinking before we speak once again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

JulieMontgomery
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Lori B:
Also don't understand why folks are suddenly so deferential to the organization, saying we should let them make decisions for us poor dopes. If this were some fine point of rules about points or classes or fences or whatever, fine, yes, leave it to the professionals. But this is not such a case.

Most are suddenly so deferential because they want some excuse, and that is as good as any ....

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:21 PM
I can "forgive" those who voted for GW

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifYou're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

JulieMontgomery
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:22 PM
Also, before I get drawn and quartered ..... my name is not on the petition because I can't get my ancient computer to work right to get to the %$#&^% petition ...... can't see the signatures, can't sign in, can't do 'nuttin! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

As soon as I get to my husband's computer with all the new bells and whistles, it will be on it.

MBS
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:33 PM
Hell, if I can "forgive" those who voted for GW,. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Well you are more forgiving than me for I have not forgiven those that voted for GW http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lyrical
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Racetb:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can "forgive" those who voted for GW

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifYou're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Well, for my sanity, I had to. I'm married to one of them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Of course, it is my constitutional responsibility to cancel his vote every election...and I take that responsibility seriously! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lori B
Dec. 19, 2005, 03:55 PM
racetb, the parties in question should not accurately be referred to as 'the accused'; they have in fact been convicted.

It is quite an extraordinary piece of hyperbole to refer to a petition drive that advocates keeping a group of people out of an organization as a lynch mob, and to speak generally of mobs and vigilantism. No one wishes these people any physical harm. The petition seeks to prevent them from enjoying the perquisites and privileges of a membership organization, on the basis of past offenses proved (or admitted to) in a court of law. Such an activity seems quite unlike vigilantism to me.

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 19, 2005, 04:11 PM
I'm married to one of those too, lyrical!! I AM negating his vote each election, aren't I? That's a nice way to look at it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ss3777
Dec. 19, 2005, 04:53 PM
t is quite an extraordinary piece of hyperbole to refer to a petition drive that advocates keeping a group of people out of an organization as a lynch mob, and to speak generally of mobs and vigilantism. No one wishes these people any physical harm. The petition seeks to prevent them from enjoying the perquisites and privileges of a membership organization, on the basis of past offenses proved (or admitted to) in a court of law. Such an activity seems quite unlike vigilantism to me.

Well put Lori B. I must admit when I first read the accusation it gave me pause. Than I just remembered my most favorite mentor's advise...."when in doubt do the right thing" Suddenly I realized that people can be unhappy that I signed the petition, etc but the right thing in my book is "no reinstatement"

I can only go by "my book"

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 19, 2005, 05:22 PM
Well, I can't help it if the tone of this thing conjures up those images in my head. I can't put my finger on it, but something doesn't feel "right" about the whole thing.

Hopeful Hunter
Dec. 19, 2005, 05:41 PM
It's been very interesting to hear the thoughts of people at various "levels" of showing on this topic. Disregarding the flaming, there has been a lot of thoughtful comment, I think.

It must be very hard to know a person in one context and have to look at them in another. I've been through this with personal friends who have done things I just cannot condone, and have had to make painful choices about where to draw the line. It's never easy, but for me I find that if I'm gonna whine and be loud, I'd better be able to justify my loudness, and the best way to do that is to be considered and consistent in what I say matters to me. Yes, that can change with time and growth, but when it does it's MY obligation to acknowledge that change and accept that others may find it hypocritical.

The issue of what I consider unethical/unacceptable behavior is one that makes me pause about doing the As. I DO NOT want to give my money to trainers that have been set down, but the longer I'm riding the more I learn this seems to be far more than I had hoped. Ultimately, it may mean I choose not to "move up" but instead to improve and enjoy myself down at the locals. And yes, it will be partly so that I don't contribute to what I consider unacceptable practices.

Everyone is entitled to feel as they wish on this topic. Certainly we have the right to let USEF know that the idea of reinstating PV isn't acceptable; others have the right to say it is. But unless you do speak out and are willing to acknowledge that, I'm not sure you can comfortably say that you've truly considered the issue. I, chanda, Racetb and others have....have you?

Sebastian
Dec. 19, 2005, 05:47 PM
In addition to Lori B and Susan's eloquent words... Something else to consider... Some you think the NGB will be "unbiased" and "do the right thing"...

If Nancy Manfield has been reinstated -- as has been implied here -- I should trust the USEF why?

And, Racetb, I can totally relate to your feelings of disappointment and frustration on this since you know PV and he actually had a postive impact on your life...(and I commend you for being so thoughtful and rational thoughout this debate.)

BUT, the facts are what they are, and I just feel that there is a very big principle at stake here. We're at an important crossroads now, and it's time to take a stand.

Seb

p.s. I haven't forgiven anyone who voted for GW either. My "golden years" are going to be "rust" at best because of him... With any luck I'll just be a burden to my family. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

TB or not TB?
Dec. 20, 2005, 12:32 AM
This topic has brought up a lot of moral questions for me, because in general I am a very forgiving person (to a fault) and try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I do this because I would wish the same chance to be given to me by others.

The basic facts make the situation seem so black and white. I, like others, mentioned it to a friend and she was outraged that the convicts didn't get life bans, their horses taken away, etc. This is basically how I feel, to be honest, so I had a hard time understanding the other side.

Then I imagined what it would be like if I found out that one of my riding 'heroes' had done the crime. Instant revulsion; same reaction as before. So I made it more personal and wondered what I'd do if someone like my BO was convicted of a similar crime. Note that I basically ADORE my BO and I kind of see her like a superhero/deity/mentor/lotsastuff person. (Note for future reference: "I adore my BO" if taken out of context could sound... interesting) First reaction was like "But she'd NEVER do that!" I had to kinda push the limits of my imagination to pretend that she had, and see what I would then do. If I considered how she acts around horses now, the care provided to hers, all the old pasture pals on the property who are living their retirement, etc, it's very hard to hold to the "no forgive/forget" conviction on this issue. So where does that leave me?

The answer is still the same. There are some things that truly go beyond redemption, at least from a fellow mortal. If I were to discover today that my BO had been involved with this scandal, that would be the end, and I would not look back.

At various points in our lives we are given the opportunity to show our true character. These times are often stressful, tumultuous, push-you-to-the-edge-and-see-how-you-handle-the-pressure. These are the times that integrity is made or destroyed. I cannot -and will not- under any circumstances support a person who would murder an innocent, silent and completely at-your-mercy victim when the chips are down. That horses are his livelihood and he literally depends on them to survive makes this a doubly heinous crime. That he considered his pocketbook or his reputation or who-knows-what more important than the life of an animal that served him and that he had knowingly agreed to take care and responsibility of makes this a triply heinous crime.

You see, when the chips go down again as is the pattern in life, the question becomes not "would he do it again" but "how much farther would he go?" I don't want to know if the life of someone's child who's taking lessons with him is more or less valuable than the ego at the moment or the money in the bank; I don't want to know exactly how much money it would take before he'd accept a bribe to end someone's career or take their horse out of commission or even give them advice that would put them out of the ribbons. Don't you see, it's not a question of "would he" do something, it's a question of how much would it cost. He's already crossed the line. Now, I'm sure that he feels bad on some level for his actions; whether it's true heartfelt remorse or just "crap I wish I wasn't caught" sentiments I cannot say. But, I'm sure that for a measly $50k or what ever it was he wouldn't kill another horse. What, though, if it was $5 million, or $500 million? He wouldn't need to work for the rest of his life with the latter sum. Why, it might almost be worth the risk if the prize were great enough - certainly that sum would tempt many upright people. But the exacts aren't important, because there is a price for everything. He's already proven this; he's already been bought. It's not a question of "if," it's a question of "how much." I don't want to know what the pricetag on me or mine is.

And, FWIW, let me address specifically the "should be be reinstated" question, by posting an excerpt from the Sportsman's Charter (http://www.usef.org/content/aboutUs/sportmanCharter/) below the USEF mission statement:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>That sport is something done for the fun of doing it and that it ceases to be sport when it becomes a business only, something done for what there is in it;
<LI>That the whole structure of sport is not only preserved from the absurdity of undue importance, but is justified by a kind of romance which animates it, and by the positive virtues of courage, patience, good temper, and unselfishness which are demanded by the code;
<LI>That the exploitation of sport for profit alone kills the spirit and retains only the husk and semblance of the thing;
<LI>That the qualities of frankness, courage, and sincerity which mark the good sportsman in private life shall mark the discussions of his interests at a competition. [/list]

And, from the Mission Statement (http://www.usef.org/content/aboutUs/missionStatement/):
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>As the National Governing Body (NGB) of Equestrian Sport in the United States we will inspire, encourage interest in, and regulate equestrian competition by ensuring the safety and well-being of horses, regardless of value or competitive level....
<LI>Work together with the FEI in its mission to protect competition horses from any form of abuse....
<LI>Protect and support the welfare of horses by inspecting, monitoring and testing to deter use of forbidden substances and other cruel, unsafe and/or unsportsmanlike practices and by adopting and enforcing rules to prohibit such practices. [/list]

PV has violated these basic, founding principles in the worst way possible - by betraying the very animal which makes our sport possible.

Finally, the FEI Code of Conduct (http://www.horsesport.org/FEI/fei_01_01.html), which addresses the issue of protecting horses that the USEF wishes to "work with."
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>...at all times the welfare of the horse must be paramount and must never be subordinated to competitive or commercial influences.
<LI> At all stages during the preparation and training of competition horses, welfare must take precedence over all other demands. This includes good horse management, training methods, farriery and tack, and transportation.
<LI>.... Every effort must be made to ensure that horses receive proper attention after they have competed and that they are treated humanely when their competition careers are over. This covers proper veterinary care, competition injuries, euthanasia and retirement. [/list]

Murder by electrocution for failing performance to collect insurance money isn't on that list.

ss3777
Dec. 20, 2005, 05:23 AM
Does anyone know how many members there are in USEF? I cruised around the website and could not find that info. I am wondering what percentage we have of the membership on the petition. ( I know all sigs are not members)

Thanks!

findeight
Dec. 20, 2005, 05:24 AM
Maybe the facts are getting a little obscured by some of the personal feelings here.

I would sign a petition to oust a fire chief who torched a building for insurance.

As a member of the USEF and USHJA I signed to not reinstate a trainer who killed a horse to collect insurance.

Nothing to do with politics, right to life issues or Nazism.
Nothing personal.

Trakehner
Dec. 20, 2005, 05:39 AM
It's difficult to discern the Clinton "cool-aid drinkers" from the Valliere supporters on this thread...

His little group of Barney, Lindemann and he killed horses for profit. They went to jail, he made a deal and got probation. What a guy.

The "self-important" people know what's best for all of us and the horse world...those damn little people keep getting in the way as the moral pinhead who organzied the Palm Beach event quipped, "I think for the knowledgeable professional, it's over...For the little guys out there, they're not forgiving." Hear that little guys? Get over it, your masters have spoken.

The other riding philosopher, Bronze medal winner Dello Joio (isn't that a desert?) noted, "It takes a little bit of character on everybody's part to forgive." Such wisdom...such faith....So, if you don't forgive, you've got no character. Listen to your betters.

GP rider Schuler Riley, who trained under Valliere also showed her moral backbone and ability to spin values, "I don't respect what he did years ago." Wow, she didn't respect what a horse killer did for profit! Phew, I'd sure trust her wisdom.

Like a child molester who's "paid his time in jail", society gets to decide if they wish to have them in their midst. If you're a Professional, you have the character to ignore evil if it's done by one of your friends...

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Dec. 20, 2005, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Trakehner:
It's difficult to discern the Clinton "cool-aid drinkers" from the Valliere supporters on this thread...


I don't agree with putting politics into this thread but I must speak out. Are you suggesting that Clinton supporters also support PV too? I take offense to that. This is NOT ABOUT POLITICS. This about the ingrevious action that someone has taken against an innocent horse. NOT HOW WE VOTE! Just my two cents.

Trakehner
Dec. 20, 2005, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Showponymom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
It's difficult to discern the Clinton "cool-aid drinkers" from the Valliere supporters on this thread...


I don't agree with putting politics into this thread but I must speak out. Are you suggesting that Clinton supporters also support PV too? I take offense to that. This is NOT ABOUT POLITICS. This about the ingrevious action that someone has taken against an innocent horse. NOT HOW WE VOTE! Just my two cents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, a lot of this thread was politicized by Bush haters...did you complain when it was people with your feelings being expressed? Probably not, I didn't see a whole lot of commnetary except for "I cancel out my husband's vote".

The inference of the "Clinton Kool-Aid drinkers" was in reference to people being very understanding, making excuses and being forgiving when it's someone who they like or are perceived as sharing their same values.

Bumpkin
Dec. 20, 2005, 08:06 AM
Doesn't it make you feel as though some of the fence sitting posters, think the posters who have signed are "the little people".
I mean if they signed, they may be cold shouldered at the WEF cocktail parties.



Originally posted by Trakehner:

His little group of Barney, Lindemann and he killed horses for profit. They went to jail, he made a deal and got probation. What a guy.

The "self-important" people know what's best for all of us and the horse world...those damn little people keep getting in the way as the moral pinhead who organzied the Palm Beach event quipped, "I think for the knowledgeable professional, it's over...For the little guys out there, they're not forgiving." Hear that little guys? Get over it, your masters have spoken.

The other riding philosopher, Bronze medal winner Dello Joio (isn't that a desert?) noted, "It takes a little bit of character on everybody's part to forgive." Such wisdom...such faith....So, if you don't forgive, you've got no character. Listen to your betters.

GP rider Schuler Riley, who trained under Valliere also showed her moral backbone and ability to spin values, "I don't respect what he did years ago." Wow, she didn't respect what a horse killer did for profit! Phew, I'd sure trust her wisdom.

Like a child molester who's "paid his time in jail", society gets to decide if they wish to have them in their midst. If you're a Professional, you have the character to ignore evil if it's done by one of your friends...

lyrical
Dec. 20, 2005, 08:08 AM
showponymom, I personally just don't read posts when they are written by certain posters. That way, I don't waste time and don't need to figure out the pretzel logic.

After reading these boards for so many years, it has saved me a lot of time, not to mention my sanity. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I highly recommend the technique, and you will soon figure out who to skip. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Silver Bells
Dec. 20, 2005, 08:13 AM
TRAKEHNER.... Politics or not... you have stated the obvious! I believe many top professionals do not condone what PV did, and they will avoid taking a stand in public at any cost. That's their choice... unfortunately.

Lucassb
Dec. 20, 2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by ss3777:
Does anyone know how many members there are in USEF? I cruised around the website and could not find that info. I am wondering what percentage we have of the membership on the petition. ( I know all sigs are not members)

Thanks!

Some years ago, when I worked with the then-AHSA, I believe the total was in the neighborhood of 80k for the entire organization. What percentage of the group is represented in the H/J discipline I don't recall.

Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division
Dec. 20, 2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by lyrical:
showponymom, I personally just don't read posts when they are written by certain posters. That way, I don't waste time and don't need to figure out the pretzel logic.

After reading these boards for so many years, it has saved me a lot of time, not to mention my sanity. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I highly recommend the technique, and you will soon figure out who to skip. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks for the advice, I am learning who to read and who to take with a grain of salt. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I lost my sanity when I bought my first pony and got into this years ago. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

lyrical
Dec. 20, 2005, 08:23 AM
I lost my sanity when I bought my first pony and got into this years ago.


good point. If we were sane, we wouldn't have horses (or ponies!) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Duffy
Dec. 20, 2005, 08:29 AM
Thank you, TB or not TB.

lyrical
Dec. 20, 2005, 09:23 AM
Agreed. Tb or not TB, that was probably the most well thought out, in depth analysis of a highly emotional topic I have read yet.
Thanks for posting it.

Boberry
Dec. 20, 2005, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Bumpkin:
Doesn't it make you feel as though some of the fence sitting posters, think the posters who have signed are "the little people".
I mean if they signed, they may be cold shouldered at the WEF cocktail parties.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trakehner:

His little group of Barney, Lindemann and he killed horses for profit. They went to jail, he made a deal and got probation. What a guy.

The "self-important" people know what's best for all of us and the horse world...those damn little people keep getting in the way as the moral pinhead who organzied the Palm Beach event quipped, "I think for the knowledgeable professional, it's over...For the little guys out there, they're not forgiving." Hear that little guys? Get over it, your masters have spoken.

The US horse industry has 4.6 million people involved with horses. I doubt being shunned at a cocktail party in WPB is a major concern for horse people. I think the fact that someone who was convicted of the crimes is still involved with horses is a concern. If people are really worried about the cocktail parties then maybe they are trying to impress some people who are not worth impressing.

Boberry
Dec. 20, 2005, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Lucassb:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ss3777:
Does anyone know how many members there are in USEF? I cruised around the website and could not find that info. I am wondering what percentage we have of the membership on the petition. ( I know all sigs are not members)

Thanks!




Some years ago, when I worked with the then-AHSA, I believe the total was in the neighborhood of 80k for the entire organization. What percentage of the group is represented in the H/J discipline I don't recall.

Last I heard the H/J part of USEF is 16K, but the USEF is our NGB so the entire horse industry has a stake.

BaliBandido
Dec. 20, 2005, 12:04 PM
As said by TB or not TB -
'Don't you see, it's not a question of "would he" do something, it's a question of how much would it cost. He's already crossed the line. Now, I'm sure that he feels bad on some level for his actions; whether it's true heartfelt remorse or just "crap I wish I wasn't caught" sentiments I cannot say. But, I'm sure that for a measly $50k or what ever it was he wouldn't kill another horse. What, though, if it was $5 million, or $500 million? He wouldn't need to work for the rest of his life with the latter sum. Why, it might almost be worth the risk if the prize were great enough - certainly that sum would tempt many upright people. But the exacts aren't important, because there is a price for everything. He's already proven this; he's already been bought. It's not a question of "if," it's a question of "how much." I don't want to know what the pricetag on me or mine is.'

In a nutshell!

Boberry
Dec. 20, 2005, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Either did I... what did Chanda say?
Well, since you're all so interested, Chanda said roughly the following, after being totally incensed at the treatment of another poster by a group of people on the "other" thread, and called out by name by Boberry to give an opinion:

There is no power on this earth that could force me to put my name to a piece of paper touted and signed by people who recently made light of the death of a good friend of mine, for the purpose of embarrassing and hurting his widow.

I like Paul, and I respect his right to apply for reinstatement. I respect the rights of his friends, customers, employees and riders to make their own decisions, and I call many of them friends. For that very reason, I feel my personal opinion should have no influence on the subject of his reinstatement. It falls, and should fall, under the impersonal decision making process of our national governing body. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One or two people said some things that were in poor taste so the entire matter is not worth the time. Cocktails at 5.

Nadonyalife
Dec. 20, 2005, 12:15 PM
Cross-referencing to the "PV and NOT Gensis" thread, as well as the "Trainer Stole Money" thread--

Great series of threads on moral/ethical issues facing the USEF!!!

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender
Dec. 20, 2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Nadonyalife:
Cross-referencing to the "PV and NOT Gensis" thread, as well as the "Trainer Stole Money" thread--

Great series of threads on moral/ethical issues facing the USEF!!!

The Hunter/Jumper world is great isn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

TB or not TB?
Dec. 20, 2005, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by jodes:
The Hunter/Jumper world is great isn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I've been wanting to do jumpers for YEARS but have always kept my hooves planted on eventing territory because I didn't want to get caught up in all the drama. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Oops. Oh well, guess I'll just have to convert completely. Unless, of course, USEF allows PV back in http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

hiddenlake
Dec. 20, 2005, 04:43 PM
It's said that the true measure of a man's character is what he does when nobody is looking.

Integrity is not a value that someone can develop because of external pressure; it's intrinsic. If it wasn't there in PV before, I highly doubt it's there at the deepest, most natural level now. Strong moral character is not something you wear like a coat of armor just to protect you from further criticism and scrutiny, though I suspect it's being used that way.

PV has been under the microscope for the last ten years. During that time his behavior has suggested (according to his supporters anyway) that he is on the up and up. However, he knows the sport is watching. None of us, no matter how well we know him, can answer with absolute certainty what he would do if he knew there would be no circumstances.

You can engage in respectable behavior because you know it's expected of you, but it's a rare bird who truly changes at the core of his being. Tookie Williams, the Crips founder who was just put to death in CA, published anti-gang books and actively shared his 'changed ways' with the public. Yet he never admitted guilt. Perhaps it's because he truly didn't do it, perhaps it's because he wasn't really remorseful; I don't know and I don't want to get into a debate about him here. But I don't think PV has publicly and freely spoken about how wrong it is to electrocute horses, now has he? I've never seen any evidence of public behavior on his part that says "wow, I really did some horrible things to those horses." If he's not showing that on the surface, I can't gain confidence that he's changed deep down where it counts.

The people who train with PV have made their choices and it's their business. I have no right, and frankly would not want the right, to restrict their ability to train with PV. To have that power would be truly scary if each of us only thinks about it. Via our legal system, he's paid his official dues and our country thankfully ensures we don't have the right to overstep that other than by choosing to do business elsewhere. That said, I think that the USEF has a larger responsibility to draw a line that says it puts the welfare of the horse above all else. It's not so much a statement against PV personally as it is an affirmation that the organization considers some behaviors unforgiveable. How much more unforgiveable can you get than a horrific, deliberate and deadly crime against the creature which built the sport in the first place?

Furthermore, I think the hurtful things that were said to the poster whose husband passed away (sorry I can't recall her name) were unbelievably rude. I'm sorry that happened and it derailed much of the credibility of this whole petition effort. I for one am embarrassed that someone would stoop so low in what really should have remained an intellectual, thought provoking discussion.

khobstetter
Dec. 20, 2005, 04:58 PM
GOOD LORD HIDDENLAKE...

We are going to run YOU for President...that was so well put and beautifully said !!! YOU GO !!!

JulieMontgomery
Dec. 20, 2005, 05:07 PM
Excellent. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

War Admiral
Dec. 20, 2005, 05:12 PM
Thank you Hiddenlake. Very well said indeed.

ss3777
Dec. 21, 2005, 05:13 AM
Kudos Hiddenlake!

Silver Bells
Dec. 21, 2005, 06:37 AM
YOU GO HIDDENLAKE!!!

Duffy
Dec. 21, 2005, 07:11 AM
Exactly.

Quinn
Dec. 21, 2005, 07:16 AM
Beautifully said Hiddenlake. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Silver Bells
Dec. 21, 2005, 07:41 AM
HIDDENLAKE... you should sign your name to this and send/or e-mail the Chronicle to publish your thoughts in the "letters to the editor" or "commentary" sections.
Very well stated, and thought provoking.

findeight
Dec. 21, 2005, 08:20 AM
Gee, HL, you said that better then I could.

Indeed that should be published as an editorial in COTH. With your byline of course.

Hucklebug
Dec. 21, 2005, 08:58 AM
I sent a link to the petition to several horse people I know who i don't think follow the board and got a response back from one grappling with whether PV had "served his time or not" and definitely not someone I suspect will sign the petition. THis is someone i respect and know as an animal lover and I was rather taken aback to get the message. However, she had personal first hand knowledge of working with him....i was wondering of the people who have actually worked with him, are there any who strongly feel he shouldn't be reinstated?

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:17 AM
Not one Huckleburg. It's gotta say something for the guy that no one associated with PV can bring themselves to sign.

SGray
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:19 AM
If you were a groom for a BNT, at a big show, and you come in one morning to find one of your charges dead in its stall, said stall is in perfect shape, as you left it the night before except for the fact that the horse is flat-out in the middle of it - what would you think?

Hucklebug
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Racetb:
Not one Huckleburg. It's gotta say something for the guy that no one associated with PV can bring themselves to sign.


Yes, I'm just not sure what it says yet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regardless, competing in USEF sanctioned events is a privilege, not a right, and I'm not willing to give him back a privilege. I think allowing him to come to the shows and be a mentor to juniors does not sit as well with me as perhaps letting Barney Ward watch his offspring ride...It's one thing to let someone watch his kid, it's another to let someone actively participate. I'm just not htere and I'm not willing to let known horse murderers be training juniors.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:32 AM
That was one of my points early on Hucklebug, that Barney was banned for life for sneaking in to watch his son, and yet PV taunts the ruling, and will most likely get reinstated.

hiddenlake
Dec. 21, 2005, 04:51 PM
Awwww...shucks...thanks to all who gave me feedback, and I appreciate the suggestion that I send it to the Chronicle. I may do so, but before I do I would like to edit what I said because I'd rather address the status of anyone convicted of horse killings rather than just PV. I think of this as a larger issue rather than one involving just one individual and I'd rather make sure that point is clear.
---hiddenlake

ss3777
Dec. 21, 2005, 05:09 PM
Not one Huckleburg. It's gotta say something for the guy that no one associated with PV can bring themselves to sign.

Wow, I have to say that this statement really boggles my mind. Do you mean currently associated or ever? I believe I have seen at least one pro that has signed that has been associated. But, hey maybe I am wrong.

Snowbird
Dec. 21, 2005, 05:16 PM
Hiddenlake I totally agree with your premise. There is another thread having to do with Federal Fraud Cases which I think is equally important and this topic shouldn't be limited to just PV but should include anyone who has been convicted of a felony.

I think on the big stage the issue includes those who have defrauded people of their horses. I think it should also be something for those who are repetitive drug abusers on their horses, as well as those convicted of defrauding insurance companies by having horses killed.

It has always bothered me that when someone has been found drugging their horse it should be reported to the DA in the state of the occurance because under the Ricco "gangsterism" laws anything that affect the outcome of a sporting event is subject to criminal action.

I think those who habitually are found guilty of selling horses they don't own and not giving the owners the money and all that sort of thing is equally against the welfare of the sport albeit not as heinous as killing a horse for the money.

If we are going to take a stand on integrity then it should be across the board. But we need to take it a step at a time. We need to propose Rule Changes which have terms and conditions that are properly defined and measurable so that the rule cannot be used to discriminate arbitrarily.

Perhaps War Admiral while you have the ball in play the Petition for not reinstating PV should be the first shot over the bow.

Jumphigh83
Dec. 21, 2005, 05:42 PM
Politics makes for strange bedfellows...(forgot who said this one but it is appropriate here)

lovetheduns
Dec. 21, 2005, 06:00 PM
I dont know PV personally-- and I am glad I don't.

In my book and with my values-- he should never be allowed to profit from horses. period.

Just like I would never hire a CPA who helped cook the books.

Ethics is just like physical fitness. One must practice it every single day of the week in order to make proper decisions when faced with much larger consequences.

To go past using some less than attractive method of training to killing horses and defrauding insurance companies (and the people that pay insurance premiums) means to me that PV lacked basic ethics and concious early on.

I used to love the hunters-- but now I think of it has being nothing more than big business.

I realize that people on here who support PV, appreciate his training, etc-- have something to gain from the business. I am not saying that these people would do something equally has heinous and unethical--- but the fact that they can lend support to reinstating someone who used the grey area to continue to profit from the horse industry-- speaks volumes about where their priorities lie.

Maybe that is a harsh judgement-- but to me how anyone can justify his actions (and lets say this-- there is no honor in wiring a wire and selling the rest of your accomplices down the river just to save your own proverbial a** jail time or more) lacks a barometer of basic ethics.

JulieMontgomery
Dec. 21, 2005, 06:04 PM
Finally.

Was able to get on my husband's office computer and sign.

Number 698. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

War Admiral
Dec. 21, 2005, 08:23 PM
Great! Thanks, Julie. We're up over 700 now!

And Snowbird, you said...


Perhaps War Admiral while you have the ball in play the Petition for not reinstating PV should be the first shot over the bow.

That's been the plan all along. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 21, 2005, 08:41 PM
Ok, I'm gonna mention one more time that I have bracelets that read No Reinstatement. If you want one, please PM me and I'll send one on to you.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 21, 2005, 08:45 PM
SNL, you should probably state how much they cost (with shipping), and if the proceeds are going to go towards the anti-reinstatement effort.

Snowbird
Dec. 21, 2005, 08:47 PM
You're right harry, exactly!

War Admital if we get this done I will personally invite you to be on the Leadership Council of usAHSA and write the rule change proposal for you.

MistyBlue
Dec. 21, 2005, 08:57 PM
If someone has the cojones...wouldn't it be a bit more noticeable if someone spelled out No Reinstatement in crystal on their helmet?

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:01 PM
Alright, harry makes a good point. The bracelets are COMPLETELY FREE. They were only a dollar each to have made, so I feel no need to charge people for them and they will only cost me a couple of stamps to send. Consider it my gift to the No Reinstatement cause. And I'd love to spell out No Reinstatement in crystals on my helmet if I didn't think that it would give my trainer a heart attack. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snowbird
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:09 PM
No Please that would be in bad form!

We are not billboards. You can bring a petition to every horse show you attend and ask to leave it in the Secretary's office if they say no! then you can put a poster on your van and say one is available. Leave it out on a clipboard for when you are not there.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:15 PM
SNL, I would strongly suggest you take donations for them, and that someone take the responsibility for handling the funds in whatever way best suits the purpose.

Snowbird
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:15 PM
Well now SNL you send me one and I will wear it to the USEF Convention and if you want to give me a few spares I will offer them to everyone there. And if they say no or if they say yes, you will all know where we stand.

Snowbird Acres Farm, 204 Schooleys Mountain Road, Long Valley, NJ 07853. I am putting it here because I am proud to be against re-instatement in these circumstances. And I don't pretend to be anonymous.

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:27 PM
harry, you expect entirely too much of me. I had few bracelets made for my own amusement (I do love those cause bracelets http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and for the amusement of others. If someone wants to have more made and take donations for them, thats fine, but its not something I'm interested in coordinating.

Snowbird, I'll gladly send a few your way when they arrive from the manufacturer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snowbird
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:27 PM
Another good idea harry. We're on a roll. If you would SNL you can send usAHSA a record of your costs as a donation and have the funds forwarded to it as a non-profiit sport club the donations are tax deductible. I will set up a separate "Non-Reinstatement Account" and keep track of the funds that come in and you will be able to deduct it for charity. I'll start the legal fund with $10.00. I promise a full financial accounting.

Our EIN: is 11-3718544

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:32 PM
Snowbird, here is the URL of the manufacturer: http://www.reminderbands.com (http://www.reminderband.com) By all means, make more, sell them, fund the cause. I, on the other hand, am more inclined to step back and watch. The ones I have had made are in cardinal red, so that the ones that you (or whomever) sells can match.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:35 PM
Forgive me, but what is usAHSA?

Snowbird
Dec. 21, 2005, 09:45 PM
The U.S.A Horse Shows Association, Inc. in New Jersey for non-profit sport clubs for equestrian. It is one year old and I'm not surprised you haven't heard because we do not have big budget for marketing.

We have delegates to a Leadership Council from about 14 states, there are no Officers and our website is http://www.usAHSA.org. I have donated this for the benefit of the grassroots to try and find ways to enjoy our sport if you can't spend millions.

In any case what's important is this is the kind of thing we want to help get done and as a non-profit I think we can do it to help. It fits within our charter to make sport honest and fair for everyone regardless of their financial position.

My dream is that some day I will live long enough to see this as a place than can sponsor the good riders without money so they don't have to be politically correct to get a sponsor. And, I dream that we will have the breeding program grow to the point where we like the french can demand that both members of our Olympic Team be American bred.

I know I'm just a foolish old lady and it can't happen but I can dream, and I believe dreams can come true. I hope that I can convince young people to believe in the same thing. And it's just an offer. If there's a better way Harry let's do it.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Dec. 21, 2005, 10:17 PM
Thank you for the info, Snowbird. Does your organization have anything working in Connecticut?

SaturdayNightLive
Dec. 22, 2005, 12:15 AM
I'm pretty sure purple has been used...something about illiteracy I think? I think every color has been used, so we can just pick whichever we like best. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Limerick
Dec. 22, 2005, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
The U.S.A Horse Shows Association, Inc. in New Jersey for non-profit sport clubs for equestrian. It is one year old and I'm not surprised you haven't heard because we do not have big budget for marketing.

We have delegates to a Leadership Council from about 14 states, there are no Officers and our website is http://www.usAHSA.org. I have donated this for the benefit of the grassroots to try and find ways to enjoy our sport if you can't spend millions.

In any case what's important is this is the kind of thing we want to help get done and as a non-profit I think we can do it to help. It fits within our charter to make sport honest and fair for everyone regardless of their financial position.

My dream is that some day I will live long enough to see this as a place than can sponsor the good riders without money so they don't have to be politically correct to get a sponsor. And, I dream that we will have the breeding program grow to the point where we like the french can demand that both members of our Olympic Team be American bred.

I know I'm just a foolish old lady and it can't happen but I can dream, and I believe dreams can come true. I hope that I can convince young people to believe in the same thing. And it's just an offer. If there's a better way Harry let's do it.

I think that is one of the most positive things I've read on here lately. Any reps in NC Snowbird?

Lucassb
Dec. 22, 2005, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by harryjohnson:
Thank you for the info, Snowbird. Does your organization have anything working in Connecticut?

Harry,

I am proud to be a usAHSA rep in CT. I would be happy to "share the job," or to provide additional information. My email is in my profile, or you are welcome to PT me.

Lucassb
Dec. 22, 2005, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Snowbird:
Well now SNL you send me one and I will wear it to the USEF Convention and if you want to give me a few spares I will offer them to everyone there. And if they say no or if they say yes, you will all know where we stand.

Snowbird Acres Farm, 204 Schooleys Mountain Road, Long Valley, NJ 07853. I am putting it here because I am proud to be against re-instatement in these circumstances. And I don't pretend to be anonymous.

Snowbird,

Let's take SNL up on her offer and have usAHSA make up some more bracelets. I am willing to fund an initial supply. Maybe we should offer one on our membership apps? You know, "check this box if you would like to support the effort to prevent the reinstatement of the horse killers..."