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Sebastian
Jun. 28, 2006, 01:00 AM
I realized I think I am too old to travel any more. Times have changed so much and not for the better in Washington. There is little effort to be interactive any more.

No trip is a waste however if you learn something. I met some very interesting people and I think I've established the route. I really always need to see people first hand to get a sense of who they really are.

Sadly, money rules the roost in that town and I didn't see much evidence of mission. I'm really bad on names but the two guys who over analyze the polls and tell Washington how we're going to vote are a couple of jerks. A lot of noise but they're really a frustrated vaudeville act.

I have to say there was no one there my age all were the baby boomers and what a pathetic lot of misinformation they've been fed. It felt like I was in Huxley's "Brave New World". And, I still felt like the savage who committed suicide.

Sidelines Magazine ran a great article in their July Issue on Date Rotation and they're going to do one on the "Grand Insurance Scam" and the USEF. I think I can get them to do one on our "Convicted Felons" proposed rule changes.

Anyway, thank you for keeping the faith and I have to unpack and pick up the pieces here at home again. My daughter did a great job running the show without me and keeping everything in order.

More later!

Just wanted to say "thanks" for all your hard work and tenacity, Snowy. Many of us appreciate it GREATLY. :yes:

Seb :)

Snowbird
Jun. 28, 2006, 04:36 PM
I do sometimes get weary feeling that no one else cares. Especially when some very important people say "What should we do now?" and it's too late. I think it is so important to stay ahead of the growd and be proactive instead of reactive.

I really do appreciate the occasional Thank you. It makes it a lot easier. :yes:

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 28, 2006, 10:01 PM
If you think I'm going to let this thread die because of you you're delusional. We've all worked too hard for the past year to let the idea fade into oblivion.:yes:


your hard work amounts to eliminating legitimate competitors. Everyone knows that. Except the uninitiated, who you co-opt here.

Snowbird
Jun. 28, 2006, 10:39 PM
Nanho! I think that is a very strange analogy for "Convicted Felons" who ordered horses killed because they didn't want to admit they made a mistake. "Convicted Felons" who killed Helen Brach because she was going to the police. "Convicted Felons" who steal ponies from little children to make themselves rich. Is this what you consider "Legitimate" competitors?:no:

Jumphigh83
Jun. 28, 2006, 10:56 PM
Relax Snowbird..I have a whole shed full of Troll Chow I can make you a great deal on! Legitimate competators.....hahahahahahahahaahahahahaetc!
More like LOSERS.

Wanderluster
Jun. 29, 2006, 12:24 AM
At least you're not talking to yourself. Unless, off course, I am a figmet of your imagination.
Please go back to being a "figmet". Obviously you have nothing of value to contribute here and are just an attention starved plebeian.
Snowbird, you are a venerable soul and my personal thanks for all your efforts. ;)

Sebastian
Jun. 29, 2006, 12:28 AM
your hard work amounts to eliminating legitimate competitors. Everyone knows that. Except the uninitiated, who you co-opt here.

Blah, blah, blah... You are a troll. And, the only reason I am acknowledging you, is let those who are working so hard on this just cause know that we recognize you for what you are... :yes:

Then again, the more you post, the more this thread stays at the forefront of the board.

Carry on.
Seb :cool:

Snowbird
Jun. 29, 2006, 06:36 PM
Trolls are the feed. Trolls help keep the threads going that other people are afraid to be seen posting on. I also added a couple of rule changes that would make the Federation accountable to the members for their errors. I would have thought those would get some serious attention even from a troll.

Wanderluster the trolls are shadows wandering through the world without any substance. They wouldn't recognize a "legitimate" competitor if they bumped into one. Now Nan-ho is an interesting name to hide behind. Could it be modern short hand for "nah! I'm a ho?"

Well now Jumphigh83 I might make a deal. I could set traps for the trolls and bait them with troll dust. Isn't it so true that those who can't get the job done are the ones who brag the most about how righteous they are?:yes:

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:03 PM
Wanderluster the trolls are shadows wandering through the world without any substance.

:lol:

Oh PLEEEEEZE!

Beleive me, I coudln't play on this bored without any substance.

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:03 PM
:lol:

Oh PLEEEEEZE!

Beleive me, I coudln't play on this bored without any substance.


And from what I hear, neither do you!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Snowbird
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:07 PM
Trust me Nan-HO, I have too much substance I would be glad to share! I'm sure my shadow is much larger than yours! When say play on this "board" it's spelled differently than to say I am "bored"! Nan-Ho how old are you? Have you been to school recently?

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:14 PM
Trust me Nan-HO, I have too much substance I would be glad to share! I'm sure my shadow is much larger than yours! When say play on this "board" it's spelled differently than to say I am "bored"! Nan-Ho how old are you? Have you been to school recently?

Last time I went to school, they warned me about substance abuse. I guess you were sick that day. So anyway, who was it that stole a kid's pony?

just_me
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:21 PM
Ho, why don't you go back under your bridge.

slainte!
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:35 PM
Well my name is Slainte! and I support the reinstatement of Paul Valliere.

(now let's watch the online ladies freak out!)

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:36 PM
Rainbow Bridge? Too crowded under there.

Limerick
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:38 PM
go start a "let's support a re-instatement of Paul Valliere" thread. Thanks for bumping up the topic though.



Well my name is Slainte! and I support the reinstatement of Paul Valliere.

(now let's watch the online ladies freak out!)

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:39 PM
go start a "let's support a re-instatement of Paul Valliere" thread. Thanks for bumping up the topic though.

Do you promise not to post on it?

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:40 PM
Who was it that stole a kid's pony?

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 10:41 PM
all these do gooders make stuff up and then backpeddle.

so boring

Jumphigh83
Jun. 30, 2006, 07:30 AM
all these do gooders make stuff up and then backpeddle.

so boring
BUT YOU ARE STILL HERE!!!! hahahahahaahahaha cant be too boring!!! Consider this a bump.
PS It is spelled pedal

just_me
Jun. 30, 2006, 08:52 AM
Rainbow Bridge? Too crowded under there.
Too crowded under the Rainbow Bridge thanks to PV and his ilk. :mad:

Ho, the Troll Bridge is calling your name.

War Admiral
Jun. 30, 2006, 08:59 AM
Well, now that someone has been kind enough to bring this thread back to the forefront, may I just remind you to support our rule change proposals barring persons convicted of felonies involving horses from USEF?

Please comment on them, please e-mail the USEF board of directors, and please ask your H/J organization for support.

I'm thinking you could all mail your state and local organizations as well.

And crosspost.

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 30, 2006, 07:54 PM
Tell you what - if slowbird comes back and tells us who it was that stole a kids pony, I'll petition every state in the union to prevent whoever that person may be from ever getting a paper route.

RNB
Jun. 30, 2006, 08:02 PM
Snowy is refering the the thread entitled Federal Fraud Case. You can find the information you're looking for there just as she did or you can request the court documents for the Clerk of Courts office. Their address and phone number is listed on page 2 of the thread.

Jumphigh83
Jun. 30, 2006, 09:24 PM
Yawn...we are all so OBVIOUSLY bored that we are back for MORE!! Consider this a bump.

Snowbird
Jul. 1, 2006, 03:18 PM
But you might have to read and learn to get the answer. No shortcuts! Try it! You might even like learning new things.:yes: It's good brain exercise.

Kestrel
Jul. 1, 2006, 11:49 PM
Has anyone heard any scoop on how the rule change proposals are being viewed by the Powers That Be? Will they try to bury them or what?

Snowbird
Jul. 2, 2006, 06:39 PM
Enough comments will let them know it matters.

There are maybe 32 people involved that would be suspended. Their question will be whether those 32 have more dollar weight in the sport versus the 7000 that signed the petition. If everyone who signed would send comments on all the Proposed Rule Changes they will consider them.

One at a time we can show them the numbers who care.

TWF
Jul. 4, 2006, 11:20 AM
Tell you what - if slowbird comes back and tells us who it was that stole a kids pony, I'll petition every state in the union to prevent whoever that person may be from ever getting a paper route.


RBN gave you the facts....STRAIGHT from the record in FEDERAL COURT...The names are not so important anymore...it is their actions against unsuspecting victims. The boys preyed on well meaning inexperienced pony moms and kids whose dreams of ribbons and fun were replaced by the heartbreak of losing their beloved pony. One young victim asked her mother..."How can they do this??? They are grownups!!! "

We all ask what kind of adult is capable of taking a pony from a kid and then string line after lie telling the chld they would be able to buy a new pony in return. The hollow ring of their lies haunts her mother to this day. There is no place in the USEF or any equestrian organization based on ethics and fairplay for these felons..NONE.


Nanho....If you stand behind your word....you have your work cut out for you. Need a place to start? We offer the wisdom of our experience.

...Join the "No Reinstatment" petition
...Make comments to the USEF on the proposed Rule change.
Next step....be the catalyst for every state adopting Kentucky's Law requiring seller - buyer- and agent to sign the contract.... if you begin in your state...you willl find support will follow you efforts.



As for PV...killing a perfectly healthy horse for personal gain is simply the worst possible abuse of stewardship. He and the other 31 can live with their shame (if they have any) outside the industry...there is no place for them in the USEF. Shame on those who still harbor sympathies for his actions.....lie with the dog and expect fleas.

RNB
Jul. 5, 2006, 10:10 AM
Well said TWF, well said!!!

Snowbird
Jul. 5, 2006, 08:18 PM
caught in her/his own trap.

Mynameisnanho
Jul. 5, 2006, 10:09 PM
What's the guy's name? And what does any of that have to do with Paul Valliere?

TWF
Jul. 5, 2006, 10:41 PM
"I'll petition every state in the union to prevent whoever that person may be from ever getting a paper route."


Hmmm?
If you want to be part of the solution..please check out the concerns you are ranting against.

Snowbird
Jul. 5, 2006, 10:55 PM
A convicted felon is a convicted felon who prepetrated a fraud using horses. Whether it was to kill a healthy horse in a way to defraud the Insurance Company or to steal a pony to defraud a little girl is really not different than Joe Plemmons admitting that he shot Helen Brach twice in the head because she wasn't dead yet and she was going to turn them in for crooked horse sales. They will take advantage of thrs in other ways if necessary because they don't believe other peoples rights are as important as their pleasures. :no: :no: :no: They can't belong to the Federation.

Lavender Menace
Jul. 5, 2006, 11:07 PM
Okay, I've read some of this thread and some of the supporting articles and other info available online. I can't wade through all 165 (?) pages right now, however. What is the status of this issue now, in July 2006? Did the petition do any good? Was Valliere reinstated or is it still being debated?

Snowbird
Jul. 6, 2006, 05:08 PM
We have proposed Rule Changes based on the evidence that "Convicted Felons" should not be members of the Federation. It means they cannot show, their horses cannot show. Most of us feel that is suitable penalty for the abuse of horses to commit fraud.

We need you all to go in and comment on all the proposed rule changes so that the Federation knows the Members support the concept. If those same 7000 people do not comment on those rule changes then the Petition will have lost creditability. :yes:

Janet
Jul. 6, 2006, 05:12 PM
Okay, I've read some of this thread and some of the supporting articles and other info available online. I can't wade through all 165 (?) pages right now, however. What is the status of this issue now, in July 2006? Did the petition do any good? Was Valliere reinstated or is it still being debated? He is still on the "suspended persons" list.

RNB
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:14 PM
Just want to remind everyone to comment on the USEF rule change proposals!

RNB
Jul. 23, 2006, 10:48 PM
Since everyone is inside trying to beat the heat perhaps it would be a good time to check out all the rule change proposals on the USEF web site. Your opinion counts!! :yes:

pony4me
Nov. 26, 2006, 08:26 PM
Bumping this up, and may I please direct your attention to the Avery's Place Auction thread over on Off Course.

~ Adult Pony Riders' Clique ~

Fairview Horse Center
Dec. 29, 2006, 06:41 PM
Any news? It is almost the 1st.

RNB
Dec. 29, 2006, 06:44 PM
I was thinking the same thing FHC. Do they vote on these proposals at the annual convention?

Janet
Dec. 29, 2006, 09:31 PM
Several of them have committee action dated TODAY.

For instance

Breeds/Disciplines 1:No Action
Legal Review 1:No Action
USHJA 1:Disapproved-12/7/2006
National Affiliates Working Group 1:Disapproved-12/28/2006

Ravencrest_Camp
Dec. 29, 2006, 09:35 PM
We have proposed Rule Changes based on the evidence that "Convicted Felons" should not be members of the Federation. It means they cannot show, their horses cannot show. Most of us feel that is suitable penalty for the abuse of horses to commit fraud.

We need you all to go in and comment on all the proposed rule changes so that the Federation knows the Members support the concept. If those same 7000 people do not comment on those rule changes then the Petition will have lost creditability. :yes:

What if I am convicted of auto theft or tax evasion, or some other such felony that doesnt involve horses or children, can I still be part of the Federation?

Janet
Dec. 29, 2006, 09:39 PM
You might want to check out THIS rule change proposal
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/588-06.pdf
Submitted by John Long, and APPROVED by the two committees that have rejected most of the other related proposals.



GR703 Penalties. [Chapter 7. Violations and Penalties] Change to read:
1. If found guilty, the accused will be subject to such penalty as the Hearing Committee may determine, including but not limited to:
f. EXPULSION or SUSPENSION from membership in the Federation. If the hearing committee finds an individual to have been convicted in a court of law of any crime related to the death of a horse, the hearing committee may, in its sole discretion, expel the member or deny membership to a nonmember for life.

Janet
Dec. 29, 2006, 09:49 PM
What if I am convicted of auto theft or tax evasion, or some other such felony that doesnt involve horses or children, can I still be part of the Federation?

Read the rule change proposals- The wording is like this
"felony crime involving horses (including but not limited to animal cruelty, fraud, abuse, etc.)."

RNB
Dec. 29, 2006, 09:53 PM
What if I am convicted of auto theft or tax evasion, or some other such felony that doesnt involve horses or children, can I still be part of the Federation?

You need to READ the proposals....it states felons of horse related crimes.

RNB
Dec. 29, 2006, 09:58 PM
You might want to check out THIS rule change proposal
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/588-06.pdf
Submitted by John Long, and APPROVED by the two committees that have rejected most of the other related proposals.

Janet....don't know about you but I was thrilled to see this when it was originally posted!!! Keeping my fingers crossed. Perhaps the little people are being heard after all!!! Tho I'm not happy with the other proposals votes regarding fraud, cruelty, etc.......

vanheimrhorses
Dec. 30, 2006, 12:02 AM
i have said it again and again we need to be licensed like Real Estate agents and we need an ethics board and a code of ethics and you need to be banned if you violate the ethics. MY God no other business allows liars theives killers and cheats to continue to have a license and do business, lawyers get sanctioned, realtors get banned, better business bereau takes care of others, why not the horse world? the racing industry even has licenses for trainers, with all the expense of the hunter jumper industry and all of the new fees they can think up each year to charge at shows they could certainly afford to set up a real organization with licensed trainers and instructors and ban the bad guys. Wow we could even have awards like realtors do for top producers and such..... imagine that!! so that people could judge trainers on their recorded ethical dealings with the public. Until "we" make a change the hunter jumper world will continue to have a shady shide for criminals to do their so called horse dealings in and take advantage of good people and new people coming into the sport who are blinded by flash and money and what looks like big time to them and allow trainers control and ability to make wrong decisions without their input and knowledge. With billions of dollars being spent in this sport why can't we accomplish something so simple. I am sure the REal trainers are not afraid of this and the bad trainers who gives a #####
what they think, they will squabble but they need to be eliminated. The bad egg always raises the biggest fuss. Lets work on forming a horseman's association that licenses hunter jumper and dressage trainers and requires them to be licensed to coach at shows and or be allowed on show grounds. That would be the first and best step to cleaning up the problem.

War Admiral
Dec. 30, 2006, 07:55 AM
So, how does everyone feel about Mr. Long's rule change proposal??

I could get behind that...

Janet
Dec. 30, 2006, 08:37 AM
I think it is a definite step in the right direction.

It adds " expel the member or deny membership to a nonmember for life." as a possible punishment by the Hearing Committee- which wasn't there before.

And it makes "convicted in a court of law of any crime related to the death of a horse," sufficient- without needing a violation of USEF rules.

I would like to see it extended to horse related "fraud and abuse", but definitely a step in the right direction.

Weatherford
Dec. 30, 2006, 02:19 PM
I would like to see it extended to horse related "fraud and abuse", but definitely a step in the right direction.

Might have to spend too much time meeting - too many instances of fraud and abuse amongst members ....and the Fed might just lose a few people... oh dear... ;)

I agree, Long's proposal IS a step in the right direction! :yes:

equusrocks
Dec. 30, 2006, 02:30 PM
If you aren't a member of the USEF, will writing still help?? :confused:

RNB
Dec. 30, 2006, 05:40 PM
Might have to spend too much time meeting - too many instances of fraud and abuse amongst members ....and the Fed might just lose a few people... oh dear... ;)

I agree, Long's proposal IS a step in the right direction! :yes:

Amen.....I'm thrilled that Long stepped up to the plate! And hope it will eventually include other horse related crimes. The USEF should be more concerned with all the GOOD horse people who have left the show circuit because of the bad ones. I know in my case, of the dozens of original victims who were members, only 5 remain that I am aware of. If the USEF wants to look at this from a $$$ stand point then they have lost big!!!!

Like the old saying.....one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch....or in the horse world...one bad horse person can run off dozens of good ones!!

17hTBmare
Dec. 30, 2006, 06:02 PM
Didn't I just see in Hildegard Frostbite that Paul has 400 letters supporting his reinstatement, and is working with a DC law firm? 400 letters for him, 7,500 signatures for us...hmmm

War Admiral
Jan. 7, 2007, 11:53 AM
Bumping this up so that people can see John Long's rule change proposal.

http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/588-06.pdf

I can live with this if y'all can.

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2007, 04:22 PM
I think War Admiral that we can safely say that the campaign was not a waste of time or energy and it did get attention. I'm not sure that it should be up to the Hearing Committee to determine the particular punishment. It seems to me a conviction in a public court of law should be the determining factor. :yes:

Membership in the Federation is not a matter of Civil Rights. I believe there are more serious civil rights lost by any convicted felon than Membership in a Competition Federation.

War Admiral
Jan. 7, 2007, 07:14 PM
I think War Admiral that we can safely say that the campaign was not a waste of time or energy and it did get attention.

Well, at least it proves they are listening. It's hard to say at this point whether this counterproposal is a token gesture or not... We'll have to wait and see what happens when it comes into play. But if NOTHING else, having life suspensions right there in the rule book may work as a deterrent for future felons (you KNOW there will be plenty!).


I'm not sure that it should be up to the Hearing Committee to determine the particular punishment. It seems to me a conviction in a public court of law should be the determining factor. :yes:

And I agree with you 100%, but realistically it is going to take a LONG time for certain of the USEF mucky-mucks to acknowledge that being the officially government sanctioned NGB nowadays makes USEF no longer a private party where they can invite whomsoever they please, irrespective of the circumstances. ;)

All we can do is keep chipping away and hope we can get the message across eventually.

Thanks to everyone for your support. If it hadn't been for all y'all, quite honestly I don't think we could have got this far!! :yes:

ss3777
Jan. 7, 2007, 08:14 PM
Woohoo for the "little folk"

Thanks WA!!!

RNB
Jan. 7, 2007, 09:39 PM
War Admiral and Snowy......I'll take this over nothing!!! And I will be more than happy to submit changes again, how 'bout you? ;)

War Admiral
Jan. 7, 2007, 09:51 PM
War Admiral and Snowy......I'll take this over nothing!!! And I will be more than happy to submit changes again, how 'bout you? ;)

OK, unless any of y'all have any objections, it's official - No Reinstatement is going to support the John Long proposal. :yes:

Speak now if you have any comments, please!!!

...And yeah, RNB, I'm sure we'll think of ways to keep them entertained. Possibly sooner than they think. ;)

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:51 PM
We'll take what we can get and come back next year with a rewrite. If we don't get it done we'll make them remember the scams that have been worked on this sport.:yes:

RNB
Jan. 7, 2007, 11:06 PM
I hope to have more ammo next time around and I will be honored to work with you both again!!!! Like the old saying...."the squeaky wheel gets oiled first"!!! I think we're pretty loud squeakers and they're starting to hear us!!! :lol:

SGray
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:26 PM
a short stride is better than a refusal

Janet
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:30 PM
So, are you officially withdrawing the other proposals?