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Seal Harbor
Mar. 30, 2006, 06:36 PM
You're right - you didn't say it, you implied it.

I didn't imply or infer it. You, however, did.

spina
Mar. 30, 2006, 06:49 PM
... it is everyone's right to vote with their feet, wallets, when they find out someone has been supporting and advertising (promoting) one of the 23 who are still suspended and to let whoever is in charge know why. Kim's association with BW is quite a bit closer (and she has knowlege of what his status is) then that the last Holiday Inn he stayed at.

I guess i inferred that you were implying something by that statement.

Equit8tor
Mar. 30, 2006, 06:51 PM
spina-"it has to do with moving forward and doing what's right". Amen. Supporting the perpetrators of these heinous crimes, ultimately refutes this statement. Speaking for myself, your statement defines my course of action. It is driven by the ultimatum that this will NEVER happen again.

Hopeful Hunter
Mar. 30, 2006, 07:03 PM
I disagree that by "supporting" a criminal we are "supporting" or "agree with" their crime - any more than a social worker or employer helping a released convict find a job after their release is "supporting" the fact that he may have raped 3 women or murdered a child. It has nothing to do with the crime, which, in a perfect world, this convict has confessed to, paid for and atoned for to the best of their ability - it has to do with moving forward and doing what's right.
Say the convict gets a job with a cobbler - to boycott this convict's employer because you feel that employer supports rape or murder is kind of narrow minded. To refuse to buy his shoes is up to you - but to refuse to associate with anyone who wears is shoes is pretty extreme.

I guess this is where we must agree to disagree.

Ms. Prince is NOT helping Barney Ward to prosper IN A DIFFERENT LINE OF WORK. She is helping him to do so in the same field in which he committed his crimes. THAT is the crux of the issue -- believe me, if Barney Ward or PV wanted to go and sell cars and apply to an automobile dealers association I would have no problems with it at all! It's the continued activities in THIS world which bother me and others, especially when those activities dance so finely around their suspensions from the sport.

If Mr. Ward was an accountant, would you feel comfortable with him going back to the profession after being convicted of major criminal fraud? Would you let him handle your money? If you would, you are a very forgiving person...my own checkbook and credit cards would be kept far, far away, and I'd think anyone who DID work with him was not very careful or concerned with their money. Substitue "reputation" for money and you have my issue here.....

romanschief
Mar. 30, 2006, 07:05 PM
What seems to be missing is the fact that yes, people who wear said cobblers shoes should be boycotted. Its a statement. It means that we do not like what has happened. We do not condone it. And by them buying said shoes, they are saying its okay. It's not, and never will be.

Seal Harbor
Mar. 30, 2006, 08:18 PM
I guess i inferred that you were implying something by that statement.

No where does it say she is guilty of anything. She knows what he did and still supports him, that is just a fact. A fact that makes people uncomfortable. No more, no less. Period.

Regal Grace
Mar. 30, 2006, 08:43 PM
Spina, since I believe I'm the one who brought up the PH article - and who has written to both PH and Dover - I'll bite.

I don't know that I would use the word "guilty" in connection with Ms. Prince. She herself has, to my knowledge (which I'm learning every day is quite minimal) done nothing illegal.

What she HAS done is made a choice which causes me, personally (and it seems a lot of other people) to question her ethics and integrity. She has chosen to train with and to acknowledge a debt to a man who has committed a crime that many people find unacceptable. So unacceptable that we choose not to support that person in ANY way, a stance which has an inevitable trickle-down effect onto people who DO continue to support them (eg: Ms. Prince).

As I stated in my letter, I feel strongly that choosing to economically support the horse killers is choosing to accept, if not "agree" with, their actions. I cannot do that, therefore I also can't support those tangential people. In the case of Ms. Prince, she herself allowed publication of that credit to Barney Ward, so clearly she has no problem with training with him. I do.

Because I do have a problem with it, I don't consider Ms. Prince to be the role model she could be. I'm not denying her skills - nor those of Barney Ward, PV, or anyone else - but I am rejecting her casual ethics. I may be hopelessly naive (literally, I fear) but I want a role model to be someone who not only excels technically, but who also represents the best sportsmanship. And I just don't feel that supporting Barney Ward does so.

So that's why I have a problem with Ms. Prince's photo on the cover of Dover. You may feel my reaction is excessive - that's your right. But tell me - if we don't start demanding that "the best" in our sport means not just who wins, but who is the kind of person we would like our children to be, who will? Does character really matter that little anymore? It doesn't where I live, or among the people I call my friends. I can only hope you can say the same.

Thank you for your continued eloquence on this particular issue. The above statement wraps it up in a nutshell though I am sure the debate will rage on.

I certainly don't want this to be witch hunt on Kim Prince either....I am sure there are other Elite riders who still train with BW, PV, etc. The heart of matter to me is if you profess to "love teaching" as KP does in title in of adjunct article in PH article (on Pg 68) why would you want to include that you are "under the tutelege of Barney Ward" a convicted felon involved in the abuse and death of the horses from which he and others made there livelihood from? Good teaching and being a good trainer is leading by example and noting BW as one your teachers is NOT a good example.

Kim and other Elite riders are professional horsepeople who are in theory supposed to put the saftey of the horse first. The protection and saftey of horses is throughout the USEF rule book and bylaws...not that the USEF do a great job enforcing it but in principal it's something we should adhere to if we want to attract newcomers to the sport and have it flourish instead of having it viewed by many as an elitist sport with people who just use and dispose of horses like pieces of worn out sporting equipment when they are no longer useful as well as turning a blind eye to the dark under belly of this sport.

I know the horse profession is a tough, competitive business to make a living in but is not the intial reason most people get involved in equestrian sports is enjoyment of a unique sporting partnership and love of the horse. Where along they way did some of these people lose sight of that?

Snowbird
Mar. 30, 2006, 11:57 PM
I am convinced that the vast majority of people in this sport do it for the joy and the pleasure and not the money. The vast majority work to support their horses and do not expect their horses to support them. I know that most people do not view a horse as a disposable object intended to stroke their ego in a people competition.

shade
Mar. 31, 2006, 01:06 PM
Why can people not get it. These convicted felons are STILL working in the business in which they committed the crime. And being given accolades for it. It is just wrong. Why is this business so different than any other business or industry that this is allowed. Disbarred lawyers don't get to practice law ever again. The lawyer can be forgiven but he still can't practice law again.

Snowbird
Mar. 31, 2006, 04:05 PM
Sarah Cavanaught gave us space on two pages and although as usual she editorialized the major points did get made for case. The part that seems to elude everyone is WHY. It is to make sure that new young trainers do not suffer from the delusion that insurance fraud is a good thing to do. That horses can be sold down with lower prices and might make excellent affordable mounts for us "grassroots" people who think a horse should not cost more than your house.

romanschief
Mar. 31, 2006, 05:15 PM
Don't let them fool you Shade. They get it, they do. People want to win no matter what. And if using people who are convicted of these heinous crimes puts them on top, then so be it.:( All the excuses, platitudes does not excuse what happened. Many figure since it was so many years ago, who cares. Well guess what, we do. We did then, and we do now.

shade
Mar. 31, 2006, 05:44 PM
You know what I don't get is that there are many many fabulous trainers out there. Why ride with someone that is a convicted felon that had horses killed for money. They say because they are the best, Sorry don't agree. There are better trainers out there than some of these felons. They are not the best there is. Many other trainers are much better trainers than they are AND they didn't have horses killed.

Snowbird
Mar. 31, 2006, 06:49 PM
Here is the Sarah Cavanaugh interpretation of our position.:yes:



http://www.horse-shows.com/HDV-NOREINSTATEMENT.htm

Aunt Esther
Mar. 31, 2006, 08:00 PM
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, applauds the story and thanks Snowbird for posting it.

Yours truly,

Aunt Esther
PURSE CHAMPION
Hermes Tri-Color
My Purses Are Better Than Yours

Boston Chicken
Mar. 31, 2006, 08:58 PM
Chiming back in...

That story was far from supportive of the No Reinstatement campaign. The headline alone is negative, not to mention certain aspects of the body of the piece. I don't think I would even call it balanced given the headline.

Snowbird
Apr. 1, 2006, 09:20 AM
Sarah Cavanaugh has always been supportive only of the the rich and powerful. She enjoys her affiliation with them. I note the headline and photo was of poor beliegured Paul Valliere.

Pat
Apr. 1, 2006, 10:38 PM
Oh, no, that wasn't slanted one little bit.

Any my father was a leprachan. Sheesh.

They should all be hung by the toes and pummeled with an organic carrot until unconscious.

Snowbird, a suggestion: Get thee to a Staples and buy "Mavis Beacon Teaches Touch Typing." It's a CD-ROM, and while it will not likely have you typing 60 wpm in any quick fashion, it WILL improve your typing overall. I'd send you mine, but my other half still swears he will use it. (yeah, right) He is a hunt and peck of the nth degree; I can't even watch him type e-mail it's sooo painfull to me. I type fairly well and this program helped alot.

Snowbird
Apr. 1, 2006, 11:16 PM
I have done two at home learning for touch typing back when I had my old IBM electronic and earlier on the old manual. It helped make me better and faster and more accurate but I still have to look at the keys. Now however in old age I have the beginning of macular degeneration which means the wobbles. I look at the keys but I frequently type the letter next to the the key from where I think I see it.

It's actually an interesting study. The left eye makes all vertical lines bend to the right like the bow when you load an arrow. And, all horizantal lines are waves where the letters condense in the bottom of the wave and expand at the top of the wave. The right tries to correct and tries to send it back to the left.

I suspect when I start my next career change and go back to fine arts I will create some interesting abstract art.

mst
Apr. 1, 2006, 11:25 PM
ok, I know of the point of the thread but have been backed off in replying and have not read the 1000's of pages that go with it. Nobody here is right or wrong. Just expressing opinions. here are mine.

a good amount of these people have had thriving businesses all this time. Up and running, whether it be sales or lessons or whatever they do. For some, their businesses and profits have grown at the same time. Reinstatement may help some a bit but as a whole being allowed back at the show will help their profits maybe 5%.

If you feel these people don't belong in the horse world, the easiest solution is not to ride, train, buy, or sell horses with them. We do though. Maybe not the people on this thread but someone does or else they wouldn't have good businesses now.

If some will be reinstated, a formula must be created. Let the punishment fit the crime. The way the usef system works, it may be impossible to do so.

I did see the coth ad in the mag and have mixed thoughts. Is this really good for our sport right now? I commend you all for fighting in your beliefs but now some new parents that has a kid into showing and owning horses read this ad, followed the link, read the info and are now worrying about the intergity of horsemen as a whole, regardless of reinstatement.

Random thoughts, I know. i guess big question is, by reinstating these people, what is your fear

Snowbird
Apr. 2, 2006, 09:59 AM
mst that is the question I believe it is not only good but urgently needed. It is important to draw a line at some point and set an example for new young trainers that will be the future.

Here we have a clear cut and tangible way to illustrate that killing a horse for greed is simply not acceptable. For too long we have all made excuses and said, "Well that's just the way it or everyone does it".

The fact that they have successful businesses and are making tons of money while violating if not the literal meaning the intention of their suspensions I find it offensive. I'd like to believe that those horses which could have been sold down for less money sacrificed their lives for a good cause.

We simply cannot condone fraud or reward it. It's a lot easier to be tolerant if you are not the one making the sacrifice. The horses didn't get a vote. The owners bilked of their horses under fraud made sacrifices for the benefit of the whole sport and not just a few.

I refuse to believe that these are examples of the best in our industry to the extent we cannot manage without them.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Apr. 2, 2006, 10:10 AM
I did see the coth ad in the mag and have mixed thoughts. Is this really good for our sport right now? I commend you all for fighting in your beliefs but now some new parents that has a kid into showing and owning horses read this ad, followed the link, read the info and are now worrying about the intergity of horsemen as a whole, regardless of reinstatement.

Random thoughts, I know. i guess big question is, by reinstating these people, what is your fear

I think the point of the ad was indeed to make people aware. If a child who trains with one of these people follows the link and reads it and understands the severity of what these people have done, perhaps they will think twice about who they train with and who they admire.

I also think that there is no fear in reinstatement, the efforts extended reach more towards trying to make a right out of a wrong - yes, this DID happen, let us do what we can to keep it from happening again.

RNB
Apr. 2, 2006, 11:44 AM
Amen Harry!

Lord Helpus
Apr. 2, 2006, 11:53 AM
I did see the coth ad in the mag and have mixed thoughts. Is this really good for our sport right now? I commend you all for fighting in your beliefs but now some new parents that has a kid into showing and owning horses read this ad, followed the link, read the info and are now worrying about the intergity of horsemen as a whole, regardless of reinstatement.

MST,

I also have not read this whole thread, but, to me, the very thing that worries you about the ad is the whole reason for the ad.

One full page ad in COTH is not going to change the mindset of anyone with entrenched opinions on the subject or friendships with the horse killers. Those people are not the target audience (in the lingo of the advertising world).

The ad was aimed at exactly the people you are worried about: the newbies and uninitiated people in the horse world who are unaware that these atrocities were ever committed, or who committed them.

We WANT these people to worry about the ethics and integrity of horsemen as a whole. Only by being made aware of the possible lack of integrity, will they become educated enough to ask the right questions and have enough information to make informed decisions.

I have to believe that out there, one or 10 or 50 parents of pony/junior riders have seen the ad and/or read articles on this issue and asked their trainer who this Valliere guy is (or insert name of another suspended person).

The trainer may say that PV (or insert name) was their trainer when they were a junior and he is a wonderful trainer who took them to the finals of the big eq and taught them everything they know. Trainer may credit this wonderful trainer as being responsible for making them what they are today (a la Kim Prince).

Said parent may wonder, just as many of us do, how their child's trainer can ignore the issues presented here and pull their kid out of training with someone whose ethics they disapprove of.

If that happens once or ten times or (dare we hope, fifty times), then the ad has raised awareness and caused change. That is alot of value for $1000.

Edited to say that I clicked on reply, went to the barn, came back and replied without seeing my fellow Aefvue'ers replies. I DID NOT copy them. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't....:p :p

Lori B
Apr. 2, 2006, 08:07 PM
MST -- What outcome are you afraid will come about as a result of the No Reinstatement effort? There was a supreme court justice, can't remember which one, who said that daylight was the best disinfectant. That is to say, public knowledge and scrutiny of bad official behavior is the best preventative of that bad behavior. Think of the ad as a ray of disinfectant daylight on ethics in equestrian sports.

My own efforts in this movement -- I did the layout for the ad -- are made in the hopes that the bad actors in question don't ever think that they can shimmy away from the consequences of their actions. I don't want there to ever be a day when they can think that it's all just blown over and been forgotten. When lawyers or doctors, for example, commit certain kinds of crimes against the professional obligations of their profession, they are DISBARRED FOR LIFE, non-negotiably, do not pass go or collect $200 ever again. I think that training horses should work the same way. Some crimes against the professional responsibilities of a trainer should disqualify them from the profession for life. Murdering a horse easily falls into that category. Since we can't keep them from training, we can certainly deprive them of whatever benefits accrue to professional association with USEF.

equusrocks
Apr. 2, 2006, 10:23 PM
Is this really good for our sport right now? I

For me, I don't think Reinstatement would be good for the sport.


I think if the sport allowed people who behaved in that manner back with open arms, it doesn't make those involved look like they are exactly oozing with integrity either.:no: At least in my eyes. On a much lesser scale, look at what steriods did to baseball. Not that its nearly as serious as what happened here, but if I'm not mistaken, that whole ordeal changed many opinions regarding baseball players. I know it's not a very good comparison, but I really think ignoring or just accepting what these people did and allowing them to continue as usual wouldn't be the best thing, not only for the sport, but for the horses as well. JMO of course. But every one counts.

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 2, 2006, 11:02 PM
I did see the coth ad in the mag and have mixed thoughts. Is this really good for our sport right now? I commend you all for fighting in your beliefs but now some new parents that has a kid into showing and owning horses read this ad, followed the link, read the info and are now worrying about the intergity of horsemen as a whole, regardless of reinstatement.

Random thoughts, I know. i guess big question is, by reinstating these people, what is your fear


Actually, I'm FINE with new people "wondering about the integrity of horseman as a whole" if the ad (which was WONDERFUL, btw) sparks such speculation!

THAT I think is part of the problem, and part of what I fear -- new people coming into the sport and not knowing the reputation or history of people they do business with. If this gets new people to ASK about a trainer's ethical standards -- HOORAY! Doing so will force trainers to ADDRESS ethics, and I do think that is an issue.

What I fear is the slippery slope of acceptance for actions that I don't think anyone feels were acceptable (supporters or detractors of PV and others have all agreed the killing of horses with the intent to defraud was wrong). One only needs to be "into" the h/j world for a while to hear about a whole host of actions that many people find wrong, from drugging to abuse to fiscal malfeasance and on and on. Is this everyone? Of course not, or at least I hope not. But it IS many more people than one might "know" about.

So, I worry. I worry that people will enter our sport - which is fairly closed and fairly difficult to start - and then learn about these things and choose to withdraw. I fear that young people might begin to view their equine partners as disposable. And I fear that the idea that winning - not learning or sharing or developing a partnership - will become the driving force in our sport.

That is why this matters to me.

theoldgreymare
Apr. 3, 2006, 12:31 PM
I commend you all for fighting in your beliefs but now some new parents that has a kid into showing and owning horses read this ad, followed the link, read the info and are now worrying about the intergity of horsemen as a whole, regardless of reinstatement.

I don't think that "new parents", in general, are foolish enough to judge all horsemen based on the actions of a few. That would be as ignorant as saying "all Germans are bad" based on the actions of the Nazi party. Perhaps, as with the Holocaust, if enough light is shed on this we can be assured that it will never happen again.

Personally, I loved the ad and thought it was tastefully done! I would like to add that a donations link on the No Reinstatement site would be a nice addition for those of us who have already bought our merchandise (stickers for every truck & trailer in our barn!) and would like to contribute $. If someone knows the link or snail-mail address to send funds to please PM me with it.

Snowbird
Apr. 3, 2006, 12:52 PM
This is the link:

http://www.usAHSA.org/Bracelets_for_Sale.htm

There are buttons to purchase bracelets but there also is a Donation Button. Donations are kept in a separate account for complete record keeping. So far there have $358.00 in donations. We'd like to place more ads.

War Admiral
Apr. 3, 2006, 01:02 PM
When I get home from work & barn tonight (late) I'll see if I can figure a way to link directly from www.noreinstatement.org to Snowy's donations button. I'm not the greatest HTML genius in the world though. :uhoh:

baleofhay
Apr. 3, 2006, 01:13 PM
I am dismayed there are only approximately 3,000 signatures on the petition. I checked for my trainer's name and will be asking him tonight if he has heard of the petition and if so why hasn't he signed it. I encourage all of you to ask the same of their trainer/trainers.

Snowbird
Apr. 3, 2006, 04:33 PM
You can link to the page and then they can go down to the button. There is a code that I have to put on the page. Try clicking this button which is a copy and see what happens. If it will work then you can just copy the button and paste it. But, I'm not sure how this works from another site. When you click on it it should open the PayPal site I'm just not sure if it will still know what account to use deposit the money. The button didn't stay in the message so I don't think that will work.

theoldgreymare
Apr. 3, 2006, 05:09 PM
This is the link:

http://www.usAHSA.org/Bracelets_for_Sale.htm

There are buttons to purchase bracelets but there also is a Donation Button. Donations are kept in a separate account for complete record keeping. So far there have $358.00 in donations. We'd like to place more ads.

Thanks, Snowbird. I went to the Cafe Press site to shop, that's why I did't see it. I'm heading to the above link now!

War Admiral
Apr. 3, 2006, 11:04 PM
You can link to the page and then they can go down to the button. There is a code that I have to put on the page. Try clicking this button which is a copy and see what happens. If it will work then you can just copy the button and paste it. But, I'm not sure how this works from another site. When you click on it it should open the PayPal site I'm just not sure if it will still know what account to use deposit the money. The button didn't stay in the message so I don't think that will work.

I tried; it didn't. But then I was never going to master CGI scripting in half an hour, was I! :winkgrin:

So there's now a Donations button at the bottom of the main No Reinstatement page - if you click on that, it takes you to the Bracelets page. Scroll down from there & you'll see the button that links to Paypal.

Sorry for the inconvenience everybody - best I can do, for now! (Of course, if there happen to be any CGI scripters handy that would like to help....???)

Snowbird
Apr. 3, 2006, 11:14 PM
It took me a week to figure out how to get PayPal to work and when I did It was so easy I wanted to kick myself in the butt all the way to Canada.

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 6, 2006, 11:46 PM
OK........remember when I wrote to PH about the Kim Prince article?

I don't know if they'll run my letter, and suspect not, but I'm OK with that. Why? Because today I got a letter from the editor that actually impressed me.

I have asked permission to post it, but if anyone wants to see it just send me your email addy. PH did NOT in any way defend the article but did indicate that they do not want to be seen in any way as endorsing Barney Ward. The one line I will quote: "We apologize for our serious lapse in judgment."

As a PR pro, I have to say this was a textbook perfect way to handle a brewing crisis of sorts. I am impressed with both Sandy Oliynyk's response and with the level of concern PH has shown on this topic, along with the steps they plan to take to vet their contributors more appropriately. Based on what she wrote to me, I'd say not only don't cancel, but buy a gift subscription or two!

equusrocks
Apr. 7, 2006, 12:45 AM
I recieved a very well written letter also. They effectively convinced me that they do take into serious consideration the opinions of their subscribers, and it sounds like they really want to keep us happy. By the sounds of it, more than one person wrote to let them know of their displeasure. I'm happy with the response I recieved. I'm glad they took the time to acknowledge (sp?) our concerns. :yes: So I will be keeping my subscription.:)

hoopoe
Apr. 7, 2006, 01:06 AM
I saw the ad in the COTH that came this week. It was eye catching and very effective.

I think it is important to remember that COTH is read by more than just H/J riders on the east coast. There are members of disciplines who do not follow the ins and outs of the h/j scene who really don't know about these issues....

But should.

If the ad serves to educate one of them , or dozens of them or serves to enlighten "unsuspecting parents" and compel them to become aware, thinking, knowledgeable parents then I say Bravo, Well Done!

This is a history I don't wish to see repeated.

xegeba
Apr. 7, 2006, 03:03 AM
or serves to enlighten "unsuspecting parents" Do many of those types even know about COTH?

Jumphigh83
Apr. 7, 2006, 09:14 AM
Hopeful Hunter you have a PT.

heads up
Apr. 7, 2006, 11:25 AM
I also saw the ad in COTH and agree it was well done. However, on page 37 there is a half page ad "...special thanks to Paul Valliere and..."

vienna
Apr. 7, 2006, 11:49 AM
Having signed the no reinstatement petition I noticed that Laura Stern is back at the horse shows. Her time has expired, so what is the point now of the petition with her name on it?

I also noticed the ad referencing Paul Vallerie, so again I ask, what is the point? I didn't want to see either of these people back in the horse business, but it appears that for these people and for the other's whose time is coming due this petition has little impact (unfortunately).

As long as these riders/trainers get support (in any form) from horse related publications, organizations and horse show organizers, has our petition has served its purpose?

The real mistake was made in the beginning when the AHSA (now USEF) lacked backbone and made it easy for these people back into the fold instead of just banning them for life.

Snowbird
Apr. 7, 2006, 02:03 PM
It is too easy for everyone to say well nothing can be done and accept evil as normal. That's what behind most horse abuse "Everyone does it". Somewhere sometime enough people have to care and can make a difference. If we submit rule change proposals that are properly written then those who have been convicted can have their memberships if already granted cancelled. Remember that membership is a privilege and not an entitlement.
:mad:

2hsmommy
Apr. 9, 2006, 04:09 PM
Giving this a bump back to the proper page...

Snowbird
Apr. 9, 2006, 04:52 PM
If we had sold half of that; there would be 4500 bracelets out there. It does match between the number of posts and the number of signatures.

Hopeful Hunter
Apr. 10, 2006, 02:07 PM
I got permission to repost this, so here it is. Unfortunately, it seems her brother may now be working with PV, but I guess one can't control one's relatives. At least, from what this seems to say, the MAGAZINE will be taking a more active look at things.
------------
Dear Gina,

Thank you for your letter. I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

One of our commitments at Practical Horseman is to work with respected
trainers. We research their methods, how they are viewed by their peers, and
with whom they have trained.

For the reasons you stated, a trainer who is working with Barney Ward would
not fit this category. Therefore, I feel I owe you an explanation for our
April cover story-and an apology.

We have featured Kim Prince in the magazine previously, because she came
highly recommended by Katie Monahan Prudent. When I approached Kim last year
about working on another story with us, I did not think to ask her to update
us on the trainers she works with.

The first draft of Kim's April story did not mention Barney Ward. We sent
her the draft to review for accuracy, our standard procedure. It was during
this review that she added Barney Ward's name.

The story was difficult to finalize for various reasons. We didn't have the
complete version to proofread until the last day of our production deadline.
We were troubled and dismayed to see Barney Ward's name, but under the
pressure of deadline, we just didn't consider the ramifications of running
the story and cover-that by doing so, we would be highlighting a trainer who
no longer fit the stringent criteria we have set for our experts and
stories.

This incident has been a wake-up call to us. Our readers' trust in our
experts is the backbone of the magazine. We are already developing policies
to reduce the chance of this happening again.

We apologize for our serious lapse in judgment.

Thank you again for your letter.

Sincerely,

Sandy Oliynyk
Editor
Practical Horseman

656 Quince Rd., Suite 600
Gaithersburg, MD 20878

Phone: (301) 977-3900, ext. 139
Fax: (301) 990-9015
E-mail: Sandy.Oliynyk@primedia.com

SGray
Apr. 10, 2006, 02:31 PM
nice letter

SGray
Apr. 12, 2006, 02:23 PM
Long was interviewed regarding Kentucky 230

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/14189381.htm

SGray
Apr. 12, 2006, 02:31 PM
http://www.grayharris.com/news.php?ACTION=print&ID=618

excerpt

Fraudulent sales practices, though frowned upon by most, have long been the dirty laundry that the racing and show worlds have tried to hide. When prominent Thoroughbred owner/breeder Satish Sanan, owner of Padua Stables in Summerfield, Florida, started demanding the racing industry take a hard look at some of its so-called "traditions," the vast majority of people were relieved the issue was finally out on the table. While some disagreed with Sanan's approach in getting the word out, all had to respect the man who had spent roughly $150 million in the previous eight years buying racehorses and farm land.

The Alliance for Industry Reform (AIR), the initiative founded by Sanan, was created in early 2004 to get the racing industry to resolve the problems associated with its sales. The AIR motto "Open Book/Fair Sales" was coined to encourage the industry to require transparency in auctions, and to educate owners about some of the unscrupulous practices that occur in horse sales, whether public or private. As a result of this initiative, the industry has rallied around the cause, determined to implement some changes to protect both new and old investors.

The goal of AIR from the beginning was to encourage the national ownership body in horse racing, the Thoroughbred Owners' and Breeders' Association (TOBA), to create a task force that would examine the major issues that affect each and every person in the business. Within the general public, there are negative perceptions about the whole industry that result from the dastardly actions of some.

"The objective was to make the Thoroughbred auction scene as buyer-friendly as possible," said Cot Campbell, Chairman of TOBA's Sales Integrity Task Force, the task force that arose from AIR. "We focused attention [on the existence of larceny], created awareness on the part of newcomers as to the need for due diligence, and we came up with some measures that would sure as hell retard evil practices in the buying and selling of horses."
As a result of AIR's determination and the unselfish commitment of many of the industry's leaders, the Task Force's first goal was to evaluate and recommend solutions in three primary areas: (1) the problem of dual agency, (2) veterinarian and medical disclosures, and (3) ownership disclosures. After just a couple months of intensive discussions and research on the part of Task Force members, the Task Force issued its Code of Ethics on December 16, 2004. While Campbell admitted that it was not a final victory (over fraud), all agreed that the issuance and implementation of a Code of Ethics was a huge step toward improving sales conditions.

Bill Casner, chairman of the subcommittee on dual agency and co-owner of WinStar Farm in Lexington, Kentucky which stands such stallions as Distorted Humor, sire of 2003 Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, said recently that his "experience and involvement with the Sales Integrity Task Force and the Sales Integrity Program has been one of the most rewarding assignments that I have been involved with in the horse industry. It was very frustrating and disconcerting to me to know that these despicable practices existed and were virtually tolerated by the industry."
Arguably, the most substantial benefit that already has resulted from AIR and the Task Force's work is the public debate and education of the buying population. While AIR and the Task Force have focused primarily on the problems associated with auctions, fraud, whether it is dual agency or a failure to disclose material medical procedures, is a concern in both public and private sales. Private sales are by far the most common means of buying horses for those disciplines recognized by the United States Equestrian Foundation.

One of the biggest problems in all sales is the abhorrent practice of dual agency. Agents, those persons who represent and are entrusted with the business of another individual (that person being the "principal"), have duties of loyalty, accounting, and disclosure just like attorneys, accountants, and real estate agents. Dual agency occurs when an agent or trainer serves as the middleman and takes commissions from both the buyer and seller in a transaction without disclosing to both parties that he or she is working for both sides. Without full disclosure of this conflict of interest, this is fraud. Though some in both the racing and show worlds surprisingly still consider this practice acceptable and industry standard, it is a standard that violates the basic principals of business and is against the law. Depending on the laws of the state in which one lives and the facts of a case, an unethical agent who is proven to have defrauded his principal might be required to disgorge the secret profits, pay punitive damages, or spend time in jail.

For example, it is fraud when a seller is told by his trainer that his horse is worth only $100,000, but the trainer convinces a third person to buy it for $150,000, and the trainer pockets the extra $50,000 without telling his client that he sold the horse for the higher price. It is fraud when a buyer is told by his agent that a horse can be bought for $150,000, but the seller actually sells the horse for only $100,000, and the agent takes the $50,000 under the table without telling his principal (i.e. the buyer could have bought the horse for $50,000 less but for the misrepresentation of the horse's true selling price). These secret profits are in addition to the commissions these agents are already earning from their clients. It is also a misrepresentation if an agent does not disclose that she is selling a horse to her principal in which she has an ownership interest.

........As an owner and if you do not use an attorney, you need to create a checklist to which you will adhere whether buying or selling a horse. Regardless of what else is on that checklist, the number one rule should be this: HAVE THE TERMS OF THE SALE PUT INTO WRITING. If you are using an agent or a trainer to assist in the transaction, this is even more important since as the principal you likely will not even communicate with the opposite party in the deal. Horses cost more than most cars, and the really good ones usually cost more than most houses. A savvy business person would never consider buying or selling a house or car without putting the terms of the deal in writing and making sure each party to the agreement signed that same document.......

Snowbird
Apr. 12, 2006, 02:41 PM
"There is no legislation on the books anywhere in the United States as it relates to (the sale) of show horses and sport horses," said John Long, CEO of Kentucky-based United States Equestrian Federation, the governing body for more than two dozen breeds and competitions, including dressage, eventing and hunter/jumper.

We have been covered under the Federal Law in every state but the states individually have not followed up. It's just like the convictions just detailed in the Federal Fraud thread. The Federal government has tried to help us but we have no one in charge smart enough to get us to help ourselves by keeping convicted felons out of the Federation.

Well, it's nice anyway that Kentucky was first in line this time. It was Colorado who started the Equine Activity Immunity laws. :yes:

mst
Apr. 12, 2006, 11:34 PM
Lord Helpus- my biggest fear of the ad is that it will hurt people like me. Young pro trainer who can barely remember when this all happenned. lets say I have a client new to horses wanting to sponsor me as a grand prix rider and reads all this and thinks that all horse people are like this. Very stereotypical I know but possible.

mst
Apr. 12, 2006, 11:40 PM
Lori B- people non reinstated is not a fear of mine. I'm a young pro and from the time I finished being a junior till now, none of these people were allowed to be active members. My point is during the time of suspension for most, they have all run a successful business regardless of being allowed at a horseshow. Do you think reinstatement will really affect them financially? the best way to boycott them is to not train, buy, or sell horses with them. No clients=no $. no $=no business

romanschief
Apr. 13, 2006, 10:51 AM
That is the point mst. You said it, you barely remembered it happening. You need to understand that it did happen, and can never happen again. It wasn't meant to hurt people like you, and it won't. It is education, least it repeat itself. Now it is up to you to educate your new client.

Snowbird
Apr. 13, 2006, 04:01 PM
mst we are not expecting to put anyone out of business or ban them from horse sports. We do think the Membership in the Federation is a status they don't deserve and the their clients might ask why their trainer cannot attend a show. The horses that died deserve to be remembered and not treated as if they were garbage to be tossed out just to please the ego of some trainier or owner.

Our intention is preventative and not punitive. It will be helpful and in the best interests of the sport if those horses in the future are sold down so that people who cannot buy extravagantly priced horses may have an opportunity to purpose such. A horse that doesn't jump 5" fences fast enough or consistently enough could find a wonderful home if the owners were willing to take a loss. We hope this will encourage new trainers not to consider Insurance Fraud as a perfect solution to a bad choice. :yes:

mst
Apr. 14, 2006, 12:21 AM
snowbird- i couldn't agree with you more! That would be my wish. Your way of thinking actually is influential to young pros like myself. I back you 100% on your thought but i am fearful not everyone is thinking the same way.

mst
Apr. 14, 2006, 12:31 AM
romanchief- I need to rephrase myself. When those horses were actually killed, I was too young to see it or hear the horseshow rumor. However, I remember clearly when it all came out. I was at a horseshow close by to one of the trainers we speak about. The local media picked me out of a crowd of juniors and asked me what my feeling were about such and such doing what they were accused of. I knew the details of what happened from the media released at the time and based my answer on that. At that time, I didn't even know the person we were speaking of and I was scared.

On a seperate note, all parties in question, should they be treated equal for the crimes commited? should the actual owner whose horse was killed be treated the same way as the person who gave them the connection?

Snowbird
Apr. 14, 2006, 01:58 PM
If you sleep with dogs you should expect to share the fleas. The Owners need to be treated eqaully since they gave their permission and they voluntarily associated with some one who was abusing horses.

If they didn't give their permission then they should sue said trainer for fraud, deleliction of responsibility and abuse to their horse that involved it's unnecessary death.

For example we all know that horse on 5 grams of bute every day gradually has thinned surfaces on their veins and arteries. When that horse dies on the top of the fence the tradegy is that it didn't need to happen. The bute is masked by a vitamin shot so they get way with it for years and years.

I think like the FEI requires; I would like to see a zero tolerance for any chemical that alters performance or soundness which are the two criteria by which we judge Hunters. I fthat means horses are nerved then we should require every veterinary who performs that surgery to report it to the Federation.

I also think that anyone who is "caught" should be reported to the District Attorney of where that show was held. This is a violation of the Rico Laws against racketeering where the results of any sporting competiton are altered due to the adminstration of medication.

I think the Federation should create a search engine where we can get a complete listing of how many times anyone one person or corporation has been "caught" so innocent owners know who should be avoided.

I would also favor a three times and you "OUT" regulation. These people should not be permitted a membership in the Federation which is an privilege and not an entitlement.

I suspect those who fight so hard to prevent these changes are guilty or they would agree.:yes:

War Admiral
Apr. 15, 2006, 10:42 AM
On a seperate note, all parties in question, should they be treated equal for the crimes commited? should the actual owner whose horse was killed be treated the same way as the person who gave them the connection?

It's almost impossible, IMO, to try and treat everyone equally in a situation such as this, b/c the circumstances of each crime were so varied. Some owners knew and looked the other way; some owners did NOT know; some owners proactively ASKED the professional in question to make horsie disappear; and so on. Likewise the trainers: some (such as Mr. Valliere) cooperated w/ the government; others stuck their middle finger in the air; some did what they did under extreme duress; others just saw it as a moneymaking proposition and didn't give a hoot about the horse. IMO the way the AHSA handled it originally was the way to go - individual penalties, individual suspensions of varying lengths, taking the individual circumstances into account.

MST, honestly, my feeling is that every professional in this industry should be, and is, judged on the way he or she conducts business. You will live and die by your OWN reputation, not someone else's. Care for your horses impeccably, be straightforward and honest with your clients, and you'll EARN a reputation to be proud of!! :yes:

RatherBRiding
Apr. 16, 2006, 12:31 PM
I have not had a chance to read all 150+ pages of this thread, but I did read the 1st page & last 2 pages... War Admiral, I would sign a petition opposing reinstatement of the list. Has one been drafted, or is everyone sending individual letters?

I do not believe that any of them, especially PV, should be forgiven for murdering those poor horses. :mad:

IMO, PV assisting the gov't should not be taken into consideration in determining reinstatement - it was either help the gov't or suffer harsher penalties.

Snowbird
Apr. 16, 2006, 04:16 PM
http://new.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

Yes! We all need to send individual letters to the Board of Directors as well. :yes:

jn1193
Apr. 16, 2006, 05:39 PM
Am I missing something?

"Laura Stern's time is up and she is back."???? Does this mean that she, like Nancy Banfield, has been reinstated? When was her hearing?

(Maybe I'm being paranoid. Wait! We're talking about the USEF - there's no such thing!!! ) No, seriously. Many pages ago, I raised the question of whether the USEF was even going to require "reinstatement" hearings since they were merely "honoring AHSA's" suspensions. And, as we all know, USEF continues to strongly insist that they are in no way related to AHSA.

So, that is the question that USEF needs to be asked. Once the suspensions are up, can these people simply join USEF and be members in good standing?

If that is the case, as I suspect it may be, a different petition may be called for and called for quickly. It might an idea to run a rule change through USHJA if USEF itself won't take any action. The USEF July board meeting is coming up and we probably need an answer before then so someone(s) can raise this issue before the board.

Snowbird
Apr. 16, 2006, 07:24 PM
They have to be submitted by June 1, 2006 to be heard at the Convention in January. :yes:

jn1193
Apr. 16, 2006, 10:06 PM
Snowy -

You know the USEF rules better than I. Is there any provision for the board to pass an what is called in association terms an "extraordinary" rule change?

And, does the USEF have to approve any rule change by the USHJA? In other words, two people have now slipped through. There's got to be a way to stop this.

Snowbird
Apr. 16, 2006, 10:49 PM
Yes but "extraordinary" is supposed to be just for an emergency. It is clearrly defined in the Rule Book. It is used very loosely if they are so inclined. Like when Moroney wanted the rule to charge memberships it went from start to done in 12 days.

I would suspect this will need to go the long way unless it was approved or proposed from the National Working Group. I do think the only chance to get it passed is if everyone who cares writes to their Breed Association and their Discipline and they know that we really don't want people who have been convicted for horse frauds as Members in good standing. As it is right now Ken Berlin and Josh ? are both members in good standing and have been while in jail.

There is also the issue of Joe Plemmons and I never even got a reply or acknowledement from John Long when I pointed out there is a rule he could enforce to suspend him until a hearing. :no:

RNB
Apr. 16, 2006, 11:28 PM
Keg Berlin and Josh Cardine, Snowbird. It still amazes me that "members" can commit such horrible crimes in the horse industry and still remain in "good standing". Shame on the USEF for not taking a stand on these issues!!

PineTreeFarm
Apr. 17, 2006, 09:55 AM
Am I missing something?

"Laura Stern's time is up and she is back."???? Does this mean that she, like Nancy Banfield, has been reinstated? When was her hearing?

(Maybe I'm being paranoid. Wait! We're talking about the USEF - there's no such thing!!! ) No, seriously. Many pages ago, I raised the question of whether the USEF was even going to require "reinstatement" hearings since they were merely "honoring AHSA's" suspensions. And, as we all know, USEF continues to strongly insist that they are in no way related to AHSA.

So, that is the question that USEF needs to be asked. Once the suspensions are up, can these people simply join USEF and be members in good standing? .

Somehow I recall that Laura Stern received a fixed term suspension so no reinstatement would have been needed. And the suspension would have been 10 years ago so she has probably been a member in good standing for a long time. If I'm wrong on this please correct me.

SGray
Apr. 17, 2006, 12:58 PM
Am I missing something?

"Laura Stern's time is up and she is back."???? Does this mean that she, like Nancy Banfield, has been reinstated? When was her hearing?.....

LS-G's was a twelve month suspension -- not an indefinate one like most of those that have been under discussion

see http://www.horsenews.com/break/mayjune97/indict.htm

Serah
Apr. 20, 2006, 05:32 PM
anyone remember the episode name of the Law and Order that mimicked the Helen Brach story???

jn1193
Apr. 20, 2006, 05:42 PM
Okay. So, if someone convicted as having committed insurance fraud was suspended by AHSA for a "fixed term", then they have, can and will be allowed to become members in good standing in USEF without a hearing. This is just plain wrong. First, it has allowed NB & LS back in without so much as a whisper from the membership. Second, it gives precedent to allowing the others back in as well. This does answer my original question: it looks like those suspended can just join USEF without a hearing as soon as their time is up.

There does need to be a rule change here. This is not good for the sport in any way. Horrific.

CBoylen
Apr. 20, 2006, 08:59 PM
Okay. So, if someone convicted as having committed insurance fraud was suspended by AHSA for a "fixed term", then they have, can and will be allowed to become members in good standing in USEF without a hearing. This is just plain wrong. First, it has allowed NB & LS back in without so much as a whisper from the membership.
With a fixed term suspension the membership is notified of the terms and dates of suspensions at the time they occur, via Horseshow Magazine. The membership obviously didn't have an issue with the terms at the time of the hearing and suspension.

DMK
Apr. 20, 2006, 09:58 PM
Agreed, CBoylen. One might not like the term handed down, but there WAS a hearing, and there was a sentence handed down. It's like being upset that a criminal was released after serving the full jail term. That ain't the jail's fault. If you have an issue with the sentence, take it up with the people who decide how long such sentences should be...

On the other hand, people on indefinite suspensions are equivalent to life with parole. I agree that in any parole hearing, the public has the right to weigh in...

romanschief
Apr. 21, 2006, 11:40 AM
The problem here, with all of that is, the governing body changed hands once again. Its not like the government, no one voted on the new body, it just was. Reinstatement of people who put zero worth on a horse's life is not what the current regime is about. So, by stating its like a jail term sorta is like saying well, so and so murdered xyz, but he will never do it again. And oh yes, they are sorry. Ask the families of murder victims how much that means. And yes, before we go there, people do forgive.

jn1193
Apr. 21, 2006, 01:44 PM
Chandra - you are correct. The terms were/are stated at the times of the hearings. For these guys, that was years ago, so perhaps it is up to those of us horrified by their actions to keep track of when they are up and find out if there is a way to protest their reinstatment, or, rather their membership.

Romanschief is also right that with the governing body having changed hands essentially twice, there is little of no control or say over what happens in the future.

The question remains as to whether USEF wants to include in its membership people convicted of felonies within the sport, whether it be insurance fraud, extortion, theft, etc. At this juncture, the apparent answer is "yes, it does." I know of no other professional, sports or membership association which knowingly allows this.

I'm not sure what rule changes are being proposed, but perhaps one of them should be a stipulation in membership that the as a condition of membership, the applicant cannot have been convicted of certain crimes related to the horse industry.

Snowbird
Apr. 21, 2006, 02:56 PM
Depends on all of you. There is no big brother or momma to fix it without you. It is everyone's responsibility to be willing to be a proponent of a Rule Change and a contact person. It takes a little effort and some intelligence but it costs nothing.

At the least you will have the opportunity to compel the BOD to consider the issues. At the best you will convince them to pass such a Rule. There can be a flood of proposed rule changes from as many as those who care about the issue. No reason to wait for someone else to do it for you. The deadline is June 1, 2006. The forms are available on the USEF website.:D :yes: :lol:

wunderbar
Apr. 21, 2006, 04:09 PM
I've been following this thread and have a question for you all. One of the suspended members is a trainer at our barn (not my trainer). This trainer has denied any involvement in the crime committed for which they are still suspended according list on USET as of today, stated denial of any quilt of this to the barn owner. This trainer has convinced the elderly barn owner to make changes that have lost many borders, I think others have found out who this trainer is and might have also left for that reason. In fact we are one of only 2 remaining borders in her barn that can stable at least 50 horses, besides the horses from this trainer. I confronted the owner about this person's past reputation and the owner is under the impression that the trainer was not at fault that the book "Hot Blood" printed false information and that this trainer was only working for bad people that had influenced them. The trainer out and out lied to the owner and said that they had nothing to do with what they were convicted of? I'm now in a position to make a decision whether to leave, confront this trainer or? Should I take any action, or let this trainer take over the barn and influence the owner, not to mention the people that take lessons (at least one was lied to about the age of their horse, I could say more) Any suggestions? I have a moral dilemma going on here...( or message me privately) Thanks for your help!

Snowbird
Apr. 21, 2006, 04:26 PM
Nor can you protect a barn owner who is obviously destined for a disaster in some way based on bad judgement. Perhaps she will be lucky and he will not scam her; perhaps he will. Freedom is the right to make our own mistakes and our own choices for own environment. People are judged by the company they keep, if you sleep with dogs you can expect to get fleas. :yes:

Limerick
Apr. 21, 2006, 09:37 PM
wunderbar, I doubt you can change the barn owner's mind. If there's another quality barn to go to, I would. The barn should be your happy place, not a place where you stress about trainer's lack of integrity. Good luck!

TWF
Apr. 24, 2006, 11:18 PM
http://www.grayharris.com/news.php?ACTION=print&ID=618

excerpt

Fraudulent sales practices, though frowned upon by most, have long been the dirty laundry that the racing and show worlds have tried to hide. When prominent Thoroughbred owner/breeder Satish Sanan, owner of Padua Stables in Summerfield, Florida, started demanding the racing industry take a hard look at some of its so-called "traditions," the vast majority of people were relieved the issue was finally out on the table. While some disagreed with Sanan's approach in getting the word out, all had to respect the man who had spent roughly $150 million in the previous eight years buying racehorses and farm land.

The Alliance for Industry Reform (AIR), the initiative founded by Sanan, was created in early 2004 to get the racing industry to resolve the problems associated with its sales. The AIR motto "Open Book/Fair Sales" was coined to encourage the industry to require transparency in auctions, and to educate owners about some of the unscrupulous practices that occur in horse sales, whether public or private. As a result of this initiative, the industry has rallied around the cause, determined to implement some changes to protect both new and old investors.

The goal of AIR from the beginning was to encourage the national ownership body in horse racing, the Thoroughbred Owners' and Breeders' Association (TOBA), to create a task force that would examine the major issues that affect each and every person in the business. Within the general public, there are negative perceptions about the whole industry that result from the dastardly actions of some.

"The objective was to make the Thoroughbred auction scene as buyer-friendly as possible," said Cot Campbell, Chairman of TOBA's Sales Integrity Task Force, the task force that arose from AIR. "We focused attention [on the existence of larceny], created awareness on the part of newcomers as to the need for due diligence, and we came up with some measures that would sure as hell retard evil practices in the buying and selling of horses."
As a result of AIR's determination and the unselfish commitment of many of the industry's leaders, the Task Force's first goal was to evaluate and recommend solutions in three primary areas: (1) the problem of dual agency, (2) veterinarian and medical disclosures, and (3) ownership disclosures. After just a couple months of intensive discussions and research on the part of Task Force members, the Task Force issued its Code of Ethics on December 16, 2004. While Campbell admitted that it was not a final victory (over fraud), all agreed that the issuance and implementation of a Code of Ethics was a huge step toward improving sales conditions.

Bill Casner, chairman of the subcommittee on dual agency and co-owner of WinStar Farm in Lexington, Kentucky which stands such stallions as Distorted Humor, sire of 2003 Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, said recently that his "experience and involvement with the Sales Integrity Task Force and the Sales Integrity Program has been one of the most rewarding assignments that I have been involved with in the horse industry. It was very frustrating and disconcerting to me to know that these despicable practices existed and were virtually tolerated by the industry."
Arguably, the most substantial benefit that already has resulted from AIR and the Task Force's work is the public debate and education of the buying population. While AIR and the Task Force have focused primarily on the problems associated with auctions, fraud, whether it is dual agency or a failure to disclose material medical procedures, is a concern in both public and private sales. Private sales are by far the most common means of buying horses for those disciplines recognized by the United States Equestrian Foundation.

One of the biggest problems in all sales is the abhorrent practice of dual agency. Agents, those persons who represent and are entrusted with the business of another individual (that person being the "principal"), have duties of loyalty, accounting, and disclosure just like attorneys, accountants, and real estate agents. Dual agency occurs when an agent or trainer serves as the middleman and takes commissions from both the buyer and seller in a transaction without disclosing to both parties that he or she is working for both sides. Without full disclosure of this conflict of interest, this is fraud. Though some in both the racing and show worlds surprisingly still consider this practice acceptable and industry standard, it is a standard that violates the basic principals of business and is against the law. Depending on the laws of the state in which one lives and the facts of a case, an unethical agent who is proven to have defrauded his principal might be required to disgorge the secret profits, pay punitive damages, or spend time in jail.

For example, it is fraud when a seller is told by his trainer that his horse is worth only $100,000, but the trainer convinces a third person to buy it for $150,000, and the trainer pockets the extra $50,000 without telling his client that he sold the horse for the higher price. It is fraud when a buyer is told by his agent that a horse can be bought for $150,000, but the seller actually sells the horse for only $100,000, and the agent takes the $50,000 under the table without telling his principal (i.e. the buyer could have bought the horse for $50,000 less but for the misrepresentation of the horse's true selling price). These secret profits are in addition to the commissions these agents are already earning from their clients. It is also a misrepresentation if an agent does not disclose that she is selling a horse to her principal in which she has an ownership interest.

........As an owner and if you do not use an attorney, you need to create a checklist to which you will adhere whether buying or selling a horse. Regardless of what else is on that checklist, the number one rule should be this: HAVE THE TERMS OF THE SALE PUT INTO WRITING. If you are using an agent or a trainer to assist in the transaction, this is even more important since as the principal you likely will not even communicate with the opposite party in the deal. Horses cost more than most cars, and the really good ones usually cost more than most houses. A savvy business person would never consider buying or selling a house or car without putting the terms of the deal in writing and making sure each party to the agreement signed that same document.......


AMEN!!!

Just think of the tax free dollars these unscrupulous dealers are making!!!
Their olde days of swindling and fraud are coming to an end...Look for the industry to change even when the powers (NGB) that be...won't. See the new law just signed in Kentucky...look for more states to follow!

War Admiral
Apr. 25, 2006, 10:47 AM
The thing that's interesting ME about the KY law is the number of pros I've already heard from on another forum who (a) don't think it applies to them ("Doesn't it only apply to bloodstock agents?") and (b) plan to ignore it. :rolleyes: They believe a legal precedent for dual agency can be set, where it has been industry-standard in their discipline (not H/J) for decades. :rolleyes: Apparently they've never read the Uniform Commercial Code, which has made dual agency illegal for many many years in any transaction that crosses state lines.

RNB
Apr. 25, 2006, 02:29 PM
It is amazing isn't it War Admiral. I've gotten the same response as well and I have told them they had better wake up and pay attention.

When the bill for this law was before the Senate I received a call from Jess Jackson's lawyer, Kevin McGee. They wanted to know if there seem to be some resistance to the bill would I fly to Kentucky and testify before the Senate regarding horse fraud. I of course said yes....would be MORE than happy to. Luckily the bill went through the Senate with hardly any resistance.

I am in contact with the KY group on a weekly basis and they hope to have amendments to current law in CA soon. Just to show you how this has started to take off, I have also received calls from FL, MD, NY, GA.....

I know for a fact the Dept of Justice was in contact with the USEF in regards to the horse fraud case I was involved in, asking to ban the individuals involved. I'm interested in seeing how the USEF is going to handle a direct request for the Dept of Justice!?!?!

SGray
Apr. 25, 2006, 03:45 PM
WOW RNB - that is fabulous news

RNB
Apr. 26, 2006, 11:02 AM
It is great news and the old saying "It's always been done that way" just won't cut it anymore!!

War Admiral
Apr. 26, 2006, 03:30 PM
It is going to be interesting, RNB. Keep us posted!!!

In other interesting news - has anyone noticed that Hot Blood is being reissued? It went out of print for a while, but Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312957262/ref=sr_11_1/002-6741197-2819234?%5Fencoding=UTF8) seems to be saying it's being republished in November.

Thank goodness for that.

Snowbird
Apr. 26, 2006, 06:48 PM
Holy Cow!!!! Those are some really high odds you were chosen from!!

And for them to link the horse fraud slime bags with domestic violence and murdered children.... WOW! I'm happy to see this case has set this high of a precedent!!

Now to keep those swindlers out of horses for good, not just 3 years!!

I copied this from the other thread because it's exactly the way I feel.:yes:

romanschief
Apr. 26, 2006, 07:19 PM
This is great news RNB. Thanks for all you are doing too!!

War Admiral
Apr. 27, 2006, 11:06 AM
Just as an FYI, we're really close to 5,000 signatures on the petition. Thanks for all your help! Keep crossposting!

RNB
Apr. 27, 2006, 10:35 PM
That is WONDERFUL War Admiral!!!! I don't suppose my two felons have signed it have they??? :lol:

War Admiral
Apr. 27, 2006, 10:37 PM
No, but a while back, someone tried to forge one of the convicted parties' signatures on it... :lol:

(signature rejected of course, although it was actually kinda tempting...)

BTW we're now over 5k.

RNB
Apr. 27, 2006, 10:51 PM
War Admiral, I do plan on bringing your thread to their attention while I'm there tomorrow. Since the US Attorneys, FBI and other DOJ folks will be in attendance I thought it would be a good chance to bend everyones ear. Perhaps we should get the Dept of Justice group to make a trip out to KY and see if the USEF can give them a good answer as to why these types of criminals are allowed in the association!!! If the Federal Govt is taking crimes in the horse industry seriously you would think the USEF would as well!!!

SGray
Apr. 28, 2006, 01:12 PM
great idea RNB -- that would light a fire under some toes

War Admiral
Apr. 28, 2006, 01:44 PM
Absolutely fine by me!! :yes:

Snowbird
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:32 PM
Along with proposing the necessary rule changes to implement it. That could save a great deal of effort.

I've sold out the 200 bracelets and have an order in but I won;t have a new supply until May 12/15 so if anyone is anxious please tell therm I'll get all the orders out as soon as they get here and will have 150 more to move to those interested. :yes:

RNB
Apr. 29, 2006, 10:27 AM
War Admiral ~ Just wanted to let you know I did speak with many of the Dept of Justice folk yesterday about the petition and number of signatures collected so far. They were very interested and quite impressed!! For some strange reason they are captivated by this horse industry stuff.....and I'm thankful everyday that they are. Nice to know the DOJ is supportive and willing to do what is right even if the USEF is not!

I'm attaching a list of the speakers from yestersday ceremony! Pretty impressive!

War Admiral
Apr. 29, 2006, 11:22 AM
War Admiral ~ Just wanted to let you know I did speak with many of the Dept of Justice folk yesterday about the petition and number of signatures collected so far. They were very interested and quite impressed!! For some strange reason they are captivated by this horse industry stuff.....and I'm thankful everyday that they are. Nice to know the DOJ is supportive and willing to do what is right even if the USEF is not!

I'm attaching a list of the speakers from yestersday ceremony! Pretty impressive!

Cool. Now the question becomes, how do we KEEP them interested? VERY interested?? :D

Just playing devil's advocate here for a sec - in defense of USEF - we don't know for a fact, yet, that they are NOT trying to find a way to do the right thing. One may have one's opinions but until they do take action one way or another, we don't really know for sure. I do know I was told a while back by someone high up that in a lot of instances, USEF's "hands" are tied on account of legal issues - whether that's an excuse or a reason remains to be seen...

Snowbird
Apr. 29, 2006, 12:52 PM
Pacifying the unimportant little money banks. There is abosolutely no such thing and that was already proved in the court with a precident ruling in the Barney Ward law suit against the AHSA. Jane Clark did a wonderful job producing that for the record.

It is the reason for the catch all "in the best interest of the sport and the Federation" in every Rule book for this new Federation. Just a bunch of wimps playing a managing a real Federation. :no:

TWF
May. 1, 2006, 12:48 PM
Cool. Now the question becomes, how do we KEEP them interested? VERY interested?? :D

Just playing devil's advocate here for a sec - in defense of USEF - we don't know for a fact, yet, that they are NOT trying to find a way to do the right thing. One may have one's opinions but until they do take action one way or another, we don't really know for sure. I do know I was told a while back by someone high up that in a lot of instances, USEF's "hands" are tied on account of legal issues - whether that's an excuse or a reason remains to be seen...
Perhaps the advocates at the Department of Justice will give the USEF some help here...SERIOUSLY! The DOJ has proven they time and again that this is their high impact cause! They are fully committed to clean up the horse industry and have placed the underdealings of the FEW under the microscope of the DOJ and State Legislative bodies. Being "hog tied over legal issues " is NO excuse with this kind of clout!

The DOJ has suggested programs that they are willing to help establish. We are still talking to them about a grass roots movement directed at the exposure of fraud and the PROMOTION of Ethical dealings in the industry. It's not just about the criminals in their eyes. The DOJ is looking to positively support the many people in this industry that conduct their business with integrity.

Imagine this....maybe we can get back to riding and enjoying our horses.....full time!

Snowbird
May. 1, 2006, 03:01 PM
I want to remind you that the Congress has oversight over the USOC which has oversight over the USEF. I am going to Washington in June for the NFIB Summit Meeting and their Annual Meet the Congress day.

I am hoping in addition to our project to find support for returning horse farms to the Agricultural Electric Rate. That's about 50% cheaper than a normal business rate which is what we are all charged now. I go as the Co-Chairman of the New Jersey Delegation and NFIB is the lobbyist in Washington that represents Small Business and Farms. OK! so I'm the token farm right now but maybe this will motivate the rest of you to join in your state.

I have also been selected to be an Honorary Chairman for the President's Dinner. I will be at the Luncheon where Senator John McCain is the Guest Speaker. I get to go to the Annual Board Meeting with the Republican Members of Congress and President Bush and Laura Bush. There will be photo ops and a Press Conference. Lot's of opportunities to make our point about Convicted Felons being accepted as Members in good Standing of the USEF.

I might even get a chance to mention the Conflict of Interest of our President as an employee and Coach of the Canadian Team. There might even be a chance to get a bug in the ear of the Congress about the governance of this Federation and it's anti-trust issues.

Anyone who wants can send me a letter about their specific issues and I will put it in the notebook I will prepare for Senator McCain documenting the issues we've all discussed.

Some of you out there have Washington expertise and I would certainly be grateful for your suggestions and advice on how to make the most of this rather expensive trip. :yes:

Snowbird
May. 1, 2006, 11:41 PM
Almost 5500 signatures on the petition to take with me to Washington. good go! Let's see how many more we can add in the next 6 weeks.

I have been really thrilled to have orders for over 150 bracelets out of the new order I'm waiting to have delivered. I have 150 more bracelets than that coming any buyers?

OK! It's May 1, and we have 30 days left to submit them. Is anyone writing Rule Change Proposals but me? :no:

Just My Style
May. 2, 2006, 09:09 AM
I just signed on too. I did a few random clicks on the signitures and was amazed at how many people I knew from showing 20 years ago. It's amazing how the whole community can really pull together like this. Good luck, Snowbird! :D

Snowbird
May. 2, 2006, 06:43 PM
We had a bunch going to work on Rule Changes is there any report? I really think it's important to back up the Petition with proposed rules changes so that the USEF since it is not a successer doesn't have any excuses.

Do anyone have an accurate count of how many of the originals have already been reinstated?:confused:

horse_poor
May. 7, 2006, 11:40 AM
Just wanted to let you know I went to the MN Horse Expo last weekend decked out in my NO REINSTATEMENT gear and had several conversations with people in regards to it, including the Triple Crown feed rep . It appears people are aware of it and I directed many to the noreinstatement.org website.

twotrudoc
May. 9, 2006, 04:45 PM
Any news?

Snowbird
May. 10, 2006, 08:28 PM
For all of those who have ordered them please be patient I am waiting for the order to be delivered. I will send as soon they are delivered.:yes:

Sebastian
May. 11, 2006, 07:58 PM
WOW! USEF TAKES A STAND AGAINST --

bling. (See thread about "no shiney objects...")

Now, if only they would put that kind of conviction behind banning horse killers. :sigh:

Seb ;)

RNB
May. 11, 2006, 10:20 PM
Perhaps if the criminals wore some "bling".............the issue would be addressed!!! :yes:

War Admiral
May. 19, 2006, 04:20 PM
Quick update - almost 7,000 signatures on the e-petition plus the hard copy ones I have got in hand, which I haven't counted yet.

We'll have to close the petition to further signatures prior to Snowy's trip to D.C., so if anyone wants to give it one last crosspost anywhere, now's the time to do it.

Also, I believe Snowy has more No Reinstatement bracelets in stock now for anyone interested.

Could use some help on rule change proposals. If anyone has time and inclination please PM me.

LovesHorses
May. 23, 2006, 01:51 PM
Kinda random, but I just read a newspaper article online about my old trainer, a complete and utter dirtbag. Anyways, the article says that he was working for (well the article says "helping", whatever that means) Paul Valliere in 2005. Now I understand how he managed to get suspended from the USEF twice in one year. Gross.

RNB
May. 23, 2006, 02:02 PM
Just like the old saying......."Birds of a feather......."

horse_poor
May. 28, 2006, 09:28 PM
I just peeked at the Cafe Press site and wowsa, a lot of people are wearing No Rein gear :D yay!

I wore my No Rein hat to Otter Creek last weekend and chatted with several people about it.

Where are we with this? I also just peeked at the petition and see there are quite a few that are pending. I am also thrilled to see members of the MN Sheriff's Mounted Posse Association signing!

Lemme know if you need help!

Snowbird
May. 28, 2006, 11:36 PM
YEZ! I am going to print out the whole Petition and all the signatures as well as the three that I received here at home to give John McCain. Please forgive me if I'm slow getting your bracelets out but I have to close my show; send all the stuff to Washington and then I can do your mail. Besides it's my birthday and I'm really weary feeling all the years this week.

Rule Change Proposals due by June 1 in Kentucky.

PS: Thank you all that came to my show in May it was greatly appreciated. This is an expensive trip and you all helped.

War Admiral
May. 29, 2006, 04:09 PM
Rule change proposals are being finalized. (Snowy, you've got mail. ;)) Once we get 'em in final form we'll probably PDF them and toss 'em up on www.noreinstatement.org for your infotainment...

Please note, the petition closes May 31.

Thanks so much everyone for your support.

RNB
May. 29, 2006, 04:53 PM
Rule change proposals are being finalized. (Snowy, you've got mail. ;)) Once we get 'em in final form we'll probably PDF them and toss 'em up on www.noreinstatement.org (http://www.noreinstatement.org) for your infotainment....


Sounds like a great idea War Admiral!!! :)

War Admiral
May. 29, 2006, 04:55 PM
Well, USEF will have them on their site as well, once they're submitted. ;)

Wanderluster
May. 29, 2006, 08:39 PM
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that there is a notable absence of BN Hunter/Jumper trainer's signatures on the petition? :confused: Where do you find backbone these days?

Midge
May. 29, 2006, 09:00 PM
Wanderluster, if this petition was the only way for people to express their opinion, I might be worried, but since it is not...

horse_poor
May. 29, 2006, 09:14 PM
I'm off to cross post one last time!

Wanderluster
May. 29, 2006, 09:36 PM
Thanks Midge- that is food for thought. Personally I waited and really thought long and hard about signing. My signature was certainly not among the first one hundred or even one thousand. Eventually I felt that "silence is complicity" and added my name. After reading your post I am reminded that this is an individual choice, I might prefer to see some well respected professionals add their voice but I can only do what my conscience guides me to do.

TWF
May. 31, 2006, 09:40 AM
USEF MEMBERS!!!! Please take time to email the USEF supporting proposed rule changes. For a greater impact....COPY your email and FAX it to the USEF. This action by members on an individual basis will enhanced the impact of the petition. If the USEF hears from the members individually; the rule change discussion may be conducted in a new light.

Plus the faxes tend to create a "jam" which will increase the "chatter" from the staff to the directors...Make your presence known!

War Admiral
May. 31, 2006, 10:45 AM
USEF MEMBERS!!!! Please take time to email the USEF supporting proposed rule changes. For a greater impact....COPY your email and FAX it to the USEF. This action by members on an individual basis will enhanced the impact of the petition. If the USEF hears from the members individually; the rule change discussion may be conducted in a new light.

LOL, I appreciate your enthusiasm and support, TWF, but WAIT-A-HOLD-IT. :D :lol:

NOBODY should write to USEF in support of the rule change proposals untiil the proposals are up online and everybody has had a chance to READ AND REVIEW them. Obviously we hope you'll support some or all of them, but please READ them before you decide.

We've all worked hard on them, they've been cleared by our lawyers, BUT there may well be some very good and very valid reasons why some people may not wish to support them. Please be patient - you can read them in due course, and that way you are making an informed decision one way or the other. ;)

Thanks once again to all y'all for your support!!

TWF
Jun. 3, 2006, 03:21 PM
Sorry War Admiral I was heading out of town and knew the deadline for submissions was up.....the propsals were due to be posted on the USEF site. It was an inspired moment! :winkgrin: (Most likely from my use of muscle relaxants after my whiplash!)


I do encourage the careful study of the rules...and then make an effort to see your opinion on any of the proposals reached the USEF.:yes:

Thanks to Your efforts in this pivotal issue....we may get a change for the good of the industry. ( 14,000 + visits.....Is this a record?)

Janet
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:36 PM
They are up on the web site now.

You can use the on-line comment form.

RNB
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:46 PM
They are up on the web site now.

You can use the on-line comment form.


This is wonderful......but Janet, where do I find the on-line comment form? (Having a senior moment)

Janet
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:51 AM
If you go to the page with the rule change proposals for the general rules
http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleChanges/prc2006.php?chapter=GR
Just below the "boiler plate text", and just above the listing of the individual rule change proposals, is a button that says "comment form".

The direct link (the URL that comes up after you click on "comment form" is
http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleChanges/commentForm.php

War Admiral
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:25 AM
Thanks y'all for bumping this up - been away dealing w/ funerals, sorry.

As Janet and RNB have stated, the rule change proposals are up and you may use the comment form here to submit your comments. (http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleChanges/prc2006.php?chapter=GR)

Obviously your input is crucial to the outcome of this attempt to ban individuals convicted of felony crimes involving horses from membership in USEF. Please do comment, and please encourage everyone you know to do the same.

Thanks as always for your support, especially everyone who worked on the rule change proposals, including/especially our two attorneys.

If you would like to get involved, this might be a really good time. We could use some help on web maintenance and publicity while we get our political folks ready for their respective trips to D.C. If you can help PM me and we'll set you up with a link to our private forum.

RNB
Jun. 6, 2006, 12:04 PM
War Admiral ~ Can't thank you enough for all your hard work regarding this very important issue. The horse community should be forever grateful. I have already left my comments :D and plan on sending a few more. :winkgrin: I will help you in any way I can and will keep you updated on anything I am able to accomplish! GREAT JOB!!!

Snowbird
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:20 PM
You did a great job on the Proposed Rule Changes needed to implement the idea that there is no place for these people in this Federation if this Federation want's to be more than a private country club. :yes:

My matching proposals will be up tomorrow and that ought to attract everyone's attention. You put the topic on the table now it's up to the Members to take advantage of the opportunity to be heard.

Congratulations and Thank you!:D

Sebastian
Jun. 8, 2006, 09:18 PM
My hat is off to you, War Admiral. Deepest thanks for taking the time to "put your money where your mouth is..." :yes:

I have voiced my support of your proposals via the comments form at the USEF website.

Seb :)

RockinHorse
Jun. 8, 2006, 09:32 PM
My hat is off to you, War Admiral. Deepest thanks for taking the time to "put your money where your mouth is..." :yes:



I would like to add my admiration to War Admiral, Snowbird et al as well. I posted on one of these threads early on and then had major computer problems (combined with no internet access at work :no: ). I am amazed at how much you have been able to accomplish while I have been gone.

TL
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:02 PM
I would like to add my admiration to War Admiral, Snowbird et al as well.

And a "likewise!"

It's not just amazing but heartening to see what can be accomplished by a group of really determined folks.

Snowbird
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:54 PM
Now is when you all need to be heard. This issue is so important for the new youngsters who know nothing and are prime candidates for these felons of one kind or another.

War Admiral
Jun. 9, 2006, 10:31 AM
Thanks all y'all. REALLY could not have done it without the help of so very many folks, RNB, Snowy, Horse_Poor, Coreene, Anyplace Farm, and loads more who don't want to be named but you know who you are!!

Please add your comments on the rule change proposals. Please crosspost the link to them to every horsey person in your address book. Please write to your affiliate organization and ask them to vote in favor of these changes. (Not that I think you'll be able to expect a vast amount of support there, but I'd loff to be proven wrong. At least you could send them a very strong signal about what you expect from your newly formed group of "representatives"!)

...And just as a side note, those who have links to the petition in their sigs may want to change the link to www.noreinstatement.org since the petition is now closed. ;)

If it p*sses you off as much as it does me that some of the convicted felons are happily training away at shows on off-days (according to recent sightings in the Northeast), then PLEASE express your views to USEF.

Snowbird
Jun. 9, 2006, 12:51 PM
Please add your comments on the rule change proposals. Please crosspost the link to them to every horsey person in your address book. Please write to your affiliate organization and ask them to vote in favor of these changes.
(Not that I think you'll be able to expect a vast amount of support there, but I'd loff to be proven wrong. At least you could send them a very strong signal about what you expect from your newly formed group of "representatives"!)
For the Next six months

The Petition may be closed but you have the next six months to make comments on the multitude of Rule Change Proposals we have made so the USEF can and must implement our feeling of respect for the lives of the horses. Comment on each and every one and let the Federation understand how important this issue is not for just the current members but for all the children who haven't even yet been born and the young trainers who may believe it's just the way it is, AND EVERYONE DOES IT.


There are also two new proposals that allow Members to file a Grievance if they feel they have been missused by the Federation. We have no other voice where we can express our discontent.

As suggested cross post to all the threads and all the places where there are any horse people. This is not a "Private Club" this is a Federation for us all.:yes:

Snowbird
Jun. 10, 2006, 12:46 PM
Just a bump up back to page 1.

Duffy
Jun. 10, 2006, 01:15 PM
Comment done on USEF Site. Thank you for your incredible work!

MareOne2
Jun. 10, 2006, 01:23 PM
Did everyone get their USEF directory? PV is still listed in there as a lifetime member! See p. 528 and p.695!!:mad: And so is George Lindemann! p.304

RNB
Jun. 10, 2006, 01:37 PM
So is Keg Berlin! :no:

Limerick
Jun. 11, 2006, 09:38 AM
Did everyone get their USEF directory? PV is still listed in there as a lifetime member! See p. 528 and p.695!!:mad: And so is George Lindemann! p.304

:no:

Snowbird
Jun. 11, 2006, 03:14 PM
The idea that these creeps could still be members in Good Standing from jail with a despicable conviction is horrific. This is why we need all of you to help with sending in Comments on each and very Propose change submitted.

Snowbird
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:28 PM
I am a cranky old lady who won't give up. Anybody care?

MareOne2
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:21 AM
I am #10 on the petition. I care about what's happening here and don't like to see these crooks continue with their business as usual. Thank you for being cranky and a nag!! :yes:

MareOne2
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:27 AM
I was going to fill out the comment form on the USEF website re: proposed rule changes, but then noticed that it says all comments must be received by Jan. 2, 2006. Is this a typo????????:confused:

RNB
Jun. 12, 2006, 11:01 AM
It is my understanding you can post comments up until Jan 2007.

Snowbird
Jun. 12, 2006, 02:09 PM
Why be surprised? They pass rules so fast and furious the IT people can't keep track.

MareOne2
Jun. 12, 2006, 02:09 PM
I thought that seemed NQR. :) I will leave my comments today.

Snowbird
Jun. 12, 2006, 06:51 PM
We need everyone to post comments on each and every related rule change to let governance know we've had enough and want want to clean up this sport.

"Bad Boys" go somewhere else please! This environment should be setting an example for good sportsmanship honor and integrity. We wonder why government doesn't do better for us; well it's time we required accountability.

Snowbird
Jun. 13, 2006, 03:41 PM
bump up and out I guess.

MeredithTX
Jun. 13, 2006, 06:59 PM
I showed hunters as a child, but took a lengthy break as a teenager and just had some fun on the ranch, so I am ashamed to know that I did not know much about all this. I only was aware that there were some people who got in trouble for killing horses for insurance money. I never even read this thread because I didn't know what it was about!

*hangs head*

I have spent my afternoon reading quite a bit and feeling rather sick about it. Has anyone read that story recently about the two grannies who took out insurance policies on homeless men and then ran over them? No one will ever let those women spend a few years "rehabbing" and then consider them normal and sane again. I guess I'm just not really sure how this is much different. I couldn't agree more that these people should NEVER be reinstated! Anyway, I just bought a shirt, and I will wear it with pride!

Snowbird
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:54 PM
It would a great pity if horse shows went the way of race tracks and were a place where kids shouldn't be. There's no way it too big a price to pay to stay away from Recognized Horse Shows. They care because that's how they find pigeons to pluck.

Hucklebug
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:38 PM
I think we should continue to support the g-rate atmosphere of shows for kids....so long as they are out of strollers.

Snowbird
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:39 PM
As a group we have been passive and accepting but on some issues it really matters if you are heard. I wish I had time to post each of these pules separately here for understanding and dialog. Maybe next week.

RNB
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:03 AM
Just want to remind everyone to read the proposed rule changes and post comments if you so desire!

http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleChanges/prc2006.php?chapter=GR

Limerick
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:04 AM
as i know there are still people who don't know about the case. My children ride-I want to be encouraging them in a sport that I take pride in.

Snowie and War Admiral, thank-you, thank-you, thank-you. Let's keep at it.

And to the poster who mentioned the grannies-you're absolutely right-they will never have access to vulnerable people again. And that is how it should be.

lizathenag
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:10 AM
OK! I'm a nag!
but I will share!

Snowbird
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:12 AM
I am tired and I know the others are too. I repeat what I posted on the other thread. An 82 year old lady was attacked by a purse snaycher in midtown New York. She refused to submit and began bashing him with her umbrella. BUT no one stopped to help her. No one gave evidence and wirnessthe the description of this creep.

As long as we refuse to take our lumps for what we know is wrong we can never win anything worth while. My hratitude to each and everyone who responds to each proposed rules change. If we are entitled to have the vote then we have to earn respect.

Snowbird
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:14 AM
I'll share nag if you'll share shrew. The taming of the shrew is quite a task.

Dow Jones
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:41 AM
FYI: there are at least four broken links on the no reinstatement website. I just thought y'all might want to correct that.

Snowbird
Jun. 15, 2006, 01:30 PM
I thought I had saved the Kentucky Agent Law on my Computer and I can't find it. Can anyone head me there to print it out?

Snowbird
Jun. 15, 2006, 02:45 PM
Life is good; it's me that's crazy.

Snowbird
Jun. 15, 2006, 11:20 PM
It will be fun to see what makes Washington run.

Snowbird
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:38 PM
Do you approve of these people and therefore are apathetic about our work?

RNB
Jun. 17, 2006, 03:31 PM
I thought I had saved the Kentucky Agent Law on my Computer and I can't find it. Can anyone head me there to print it out?

Glad I was able to get the information to you! Hope it helps in your efforts!!! Good luck!

Just a reminder, don't forget to read and comment on the rule change proposals!!!! :yes:

http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleChanges/prc2006.php?chapter=GR

Limerick
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:20 AM
to Snowy's return.

mnolen9698
Jun. 19, 2006, 04:03 PM
Bump

TWF
Jun. 19, 2006, 04:59 PM
The KY dual agent law is the first its kind in the country. The law calls for the EVERY horse transaction to state for all parties involved the sale price of the horse, the commission of the agent and the amount paid for the horse...seller buyer and agent ALL sign the same sale document. Is doesn't matter if you sell a $10K horse or a six figure investment horse.

Limerick
Jun. 21, 2006, 09:31 AM
drop back to page three.

RNB
Jun. 22, 2006, 11:12 AM
I agree Limerick!!!

Snowbird
Jun. 22, 2006, 08:14 PM
I realized I think I am too old to travel any more. Times have changed so much and not for the better in Washington. There is little effort to be interactive any more.

No trip is a waste however if you learn something. I met some very interesting people and I think I've established the route. I really always need to see people first hand to get a sense of who they really are.

Sadly, money rules the roost in that town and I didn't see much evidence of mission. I'm really bad on names but the two guys who over analyze the polls and tell Washington how we're going to vote are a couple of jerks. A lot of noise but they're really a frustrated vaudeville act.

I have to say there was no one there my age all were the baby boomers and what a pathetic lot of misinformation they've been fed. It felt like I was in Huxley's "Brave New World". And, I still felt like the savage who committed suicide.

Sidelines Magazine ran a great article in their July Issue on Date Rotation and they're going to do one on the "Grand Insurance Scam" and the USEF. I think I can get them to do one on our "Convicted Felons" proposed rule changes.

Anyway, thank you for keeping the faith and I have to unpack and pick up the pieces here at home again. My daughter did a great job running the show without me and keeping everything in order.

More later!

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 22, 2006, 11:52 PM
Talking to yourself as usual, I see....

Snowbird
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:11 AM
Does that make you NOBODY?

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:29 AM
Does that make you NOBODY?

Or maybe just one of the little people :yes:

Snowbird
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:39 AM
and very proud of not being part of the others. I live in a real world of right and wrong and moral integrity. Somehow I just can't justify killing a healthy horse unless you are starving poor and need food. I can't understand stealing a child's pony and celebrating with the ill gotten gain. I can't understand any tolerance for such deeds.

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:42 AM
and very proud of not being part of the others. I live in a real world of right and wrong and moral integrity. Somehow I just can't justify killing a healthy horse unless you are starving poor and need food. I can't understand stealing a child's pony and celebrating with the ill gotten gain. I can't understand any tolerance for such deeds.

At least you're not talking to yourself. Unless, off course, I am a figmet of your imagination.

Snowbird
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:47 AM
And, I know you are not an shadow of myself so therefore I am responding to another real person with a computer of their own who thinks they are nobody. But, we are all valuable as individuals. So, thank you for participting.

Snowbird
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:20 PM
I hope after all the work it took you all have at least read them. I'd love to see if you have suggestions or ammendments.

pvcjumper
Jun. 23, 2006, 05:01 PM
COuld someone please enlighten me to what this is ALL about. I have NO CLUE at all, just joined the board, dont know the case, or reinstatement or anything. You can PM me if you like that way i am sure to find the response to this! Thanks!

Limerick
Jun. 23, 2006, 05:16 PM
just go back to the first page of the thread-it's explained well there. Or google Paul Valliere horse insurance scam and lots of info. will come up. If you're a USEF member and don't want felons to participate in USEF competitions, you can also go back a few pages and send in your support for such rules with USEF. I'm sure Snowie will answer any other questions you may have. The thread is a long but very important one to most horse people.

Snowbird
Jun. 23, 2006, 06:07 PM
Go to the web site in my signature and you will find all the dea=tails of a horrible event where horses were killed by professional horse killers in a way to defraud the insurance comapny by making it look natural. These were not people in need of money to support thir children or keep a roof over their head they just didn't want to admit they had made a mistake and horses died.

Go the the Federal Fraud thread back to the beginning and find out how cruel thieves take horses from owners; sell them and never give the owners the money they are owed and children lose their ponies with no money to buy a horse.

There are a bunch of threads about the Helen Brach murder. She was a horse owner who wanted to turn the crooked horse traders in and she was murdered to keep her quiet. Joe Plemmons was on national tv advertising how he shot her twice in the head and took her body to the furnace.

These people are members in good standing even though they are sitting in jail for Federal Fraud regarding horses. A lot of us (7000) signed the petition because we don't think it is unreasonable punishment for them to not be in the Federation. They can use their position to lure more unsuspecting victims into their web.

Snowbird
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:56 PM
For all you late comers a bump up.

Snowbird
Jun. 24, 2006, 08:02 PM
Why not used this rainy week-end to make your comments so the USEF knows we really do care. :yes:

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 25, 2006, 01:18 PM
?????

Why do you insist on talking to yourself?

MareOne2
Jun. 25, 2006, 02:33 PM
There are plenty of people who are following this thread. She's definitely not talking to herself!:yes:

Limerick
Jun. 25, 2006, 03:04 PM
that if someone checked Mynameisno's IP number, it would show he/she was banned a few months ago? The posting style is very familiar.....anyone else think so?

Snowy, good idea-I've sent in comments on one of the rules but will comment on some more today.

RNB
Jun. 25, 2006, 06:54 PM
I was thinking the same thing Limerick. :yes:

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 25, 2006, 07:35 PM
I doubt you would find anything in the IP dept. My name is nanho.

Snowbird
Jun. 27, 2006, 12:28 AM
If you think I'm going to let this thread die because of you you're delusional. We've all worked too hard for the past year to let the idea fade into oblivion.:yes:

Snowbird
Jun. 28, 2006, 12:10 AM
Bump up once for each hour we all spent on the rule changes.

Sebastian
Jun. 28, 2006, 02:00 AM
I realized I think I am too old to travel any more. Times have changed so much and not for the better in Washington. There is little effort to be interactive any more.

No trip is a waste however if you learn something. I met some very interesting people and I think I've established the route. I really always need to see people first hand to get a sense of who they really are.

Sadly, money rules the roost in that town and I didn't see much evidence of mission. I'm really bad on names but the two guys who over analyze the polls and tell Washington how we're going to vote are a couple of jerks. A lot of noise but they're really a frustrated vaudeville act.

I have to say there was no one there my age all were the baby boomers and what a pathetic lot of misinformation they've been fed. It felt like I was in Huxley's "Brave New World". And, I still felt like the savage who committed suicide.

Sidelines Magazine ran a great article in their July Issue on Date Rotation and they're going to do one on the "Grand Insurance Scam" and the USEF. I think I can get them to do one on our "Convicted Felons" proposed rule changes.

Anyway, thank you for keeping the faith and I have to unpack and pick up the pieces here at home again. My daughter did a great job running the show without me and keeping everything in order.

More later!

Just wanted to say "thanks" for all your hard work and tenacity, Snowy. Many of us appreciate it GREATLY. :yes:

Seb :)

Snowbird
Jun. 28, 2006, 05:36 PM
I do sometimes get weary feeling that no one else cares. Especially when some very important people say "What should we do now?" and it's too late. I think it is so important to stay ahead of the growd and be proactive instead of reactive.

I really do appreciate the occasional Thank you. It makes it a lot easier. :yes:

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 28, 2006, 11:01 PM
If you think I'm going to let this thread die because of you you're delusional. We've all worked too hard for the past year to let the idea fade into oblivion.:yes:


your hard work amounts to eliminating legitimate competitors. Everyone knows that. Except the uninitiated, who you co-opt here.

Snowbird
Jun. 28, 2006, 11:39 PM
Nanho! I think that is a very strange analogy for "Convicted Felons" who ordered horses killed because they didn't want to admit they made a mistake. "Convicted Felons" who killed Helen Brach because she was going to the police. "Convicted Felons" who steal ponies from little children to make themselves rich. Is this what you consider "Legitimate" competitors?:no:

Jumphigh83
Jun. 28, 2006, 11:56 PM
Relax Snowbird..I have a whole shed full of Troll Chow I can make you a great deal on! Legitimate competators.....hahahahahahahahaahahahahaetc!
More like LOSERS.

Wanderluster
Jun. 29, 2006, 01:24 AM
At least you're not talking to yourself. Unless, off course, I am a figmet of your imagination.
Please go back to being a "figmet". Obviously you have nothing of value to contribute here and are just an attention starved plebeian.
Snowbird, you are a venerable soul and my personal thanks for all your efforts. ;)

Sebastian
Jun. 29, 2006, 01:28 AM
your hard work amounts to eliminating legitimate competitors. Everyone knows that. Except the uninitiated, who you co-opt here.

Blah, blah, blah... You are a troll. And, the only reason I am acknowledging you, is let those who are working so hard on this just cause know that we recognize you for what you are... :yes:

Then again, the more you post, the more this thread stays at the forefront of the board.

Carry on.
Seb :cool:

Snowbird
Jun. 29, 2006, 07:36 PM
Trolls are the feed. Trolls help keep the threads going that other people are afraid to be seen posting on. I also added a couple of rule changes that would make the Federation accountable to the members for their errors. I would have thought those would get some serious attention even from a troll.

Wanderluster the trolls are shadows wandering through the world without any substance. They wouldn't recognize a "legitimate" competitor if they bumped into one. Now Nan-ho is an interesting name to hide behind. Could it be modern short hand for "nah! I'm a ho?"

Well now Jumphigh83 I might make a deal. I could set traps for the trolls and bait them with troll dust. Isn't it so true that those who can't get the job done are the ones who brag the most about how righteous they are?:yes:

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:03 PM
Wanderluster the trolls are shadows wandering through the world without any substance.

:lol:

Oh PLEEEEEZE!

Beleive me, I coudln't play on this bored without any substance.

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:03 PM
:lol:

Oh PLEEEEEZE!

Beleive me, I coudln't play on this bored without any substance.


And from what I hear, neither do you!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Snowbird
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:07 PM
Trust me Nan-HO, I have too much substance I would be glad to share! I'm sure my shadow is much larger than yours! When say play on this "board" it's spelled differently than to say I am "bored"! Nan-Ho how old are you? Have you been to school recently?

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:14 PM
Trust me Nan-HO, I have too much substance I would be glad to share! I'm sure my shadow is much larger than yours! When say play on this "board" it's spelled differently than to say I am "bored"! Nan-Ho how old are you? Have you been to school recently?

Last time I went to school, they warned me about substance abuse. I guess you were sick that day. So anyway, who was it that stole a kid's pony?

just_me
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:21 PM
Ho, why don't you go back under your bridge.

slainte!
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:35 PM
Well my name is Slainte! and I support the reinstatement of Paul Valliere.

(now let's watch the online ladies freak out!)

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:36 PM
Rainbow Bridge? Too crowded under there.

Limerick
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:38 PM
go start a "let's support a re-instatement of Paul Valliere" thread. Thanks for bumping up the topic though.



Well my name is Slainte! and I support the reinstatement of Paul Valliere.

(now let's watch the online ladies freak out!)

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:39 PM
go start a "let's support a re-instatement of Paul Valliere" thread. Thanks for bumping up the topic though.

Do you promise not to post on it?

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:40 PM
Who was it that stole a kid's pony?

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:41 PM
all these do gooders make stuff up and then backpeddle.

so boring

Jumphigh83
Jun. 30, 2006, 08:30 AM
all these do gooders make stuff up and then backpeddle.

so boring
BUT YOU ARE STILL HERE!!!! hahahahahaahahaha cant be too boring!!! Consider this a bump.
PS It is spelled pedal

just_me
Jun. 30, 2006, 09:52 AM
Rainbow Bridge? Too crowded under there.
Too crowded under the Rainbow Bridge thanks to PV and his ilk. :mad:

Ho, the Troll Bridge is calling your name.

War Admiral
Jun. 30, 2006, 09:59 AM
Well, now that someone has been kind enough to bring this thread back to the forefront, may I just remind you to support our rule change proposals barring persons convicted of felonies involving horses from USEF?

Please comment on them, please e-mail the USEF board of directors, and please ask your H/J organization for support.

I'm thinking you could all mail your state and local organizations as well.

And crosspost.

Mynameisnanho
Jun. 30, 2006, 08:54 PM
Tell you what - if slowbird comes back and tells us who it was that stole a kids pony, I'll petition every state in the union to prevent whoever that person may be from ever getting a paper route.

RNB
Jun. 30, 2006, 09:02 PM
Snowy is refering the the thread entitled Federal Fraud Case. You can find the information you're looking for there just as she did or you can request the court documents for the Clerk of Courts office. Their address and phone number is listed on page 2 of the thread.

Jumphigh83
Jun. 30, 2006, 10:24 PM
Yawn...we are all so OBVIOUSLY bored that we are back for MORE!! Consider this a bump.

Snowbird
Jul. 1, 2006, 04:18 PM
But you might have to read and learn to get the answer. No shortcuts! Try it! You might even like learning new things.:yes: It's good brain exercise.

Kestrel
Jul. 2, 2006, 12:49 AM
Has anyone heard any scoop on how the rule change proposals are being viewed by the Powers That Be? Will they try to bury them or what?

Snowbird
Jul. 2, 2006, 07:39 PM
Enough comments will let them know it matters.

There are maybe 32 people involved that would be suspended. Their question will be whether those 32 have more dollar weight in the sport versus the 7000 that signed the petition. If everyone who signed would send comments on all the Proposed Rule Changes they will consider them.

One at a time we can show them the numbers who care.

TWF
Jul. 4, 2006, 12:20 PM
Tell you what - if slowbird comes back and tells us who it was that stole a kids pony, I'll petition every state in the union to prevent whoever that person may be from ever getting a paper route.


RBN gave you the facts....STRAIGHT from the record in FEDERAL COURT...The names are not so important anymore...it is their actions against unsuspecting victims. The boys preyed on well meaning inexperienced pony moms and kids whose dreams of ribbons and fun were replaced by the heartbreak of losing their beloved pony. One young victim asked her mother..."How can they do this??? They are grownups!!! "

We all ask what kind of adult is capable of taking a pony from a kid and then string line after lie telling the chld they would be able to buy a new pony in return. The hollow ring of their lies haunts her mother to this day. There is no place in the USEF or any equestrian organization based on ethics and fairplay for these felons..NONE.


Nanho....If you stand behind your word....you have your work cut out for you. Need a place to start? We offer the wisdom of our experience.

...Join the "No Reinstatment" petition
...Make comments to the USEF on the proposed Rule change.
Next step....be the catalyst for every state adopting Kentucky's Law requiring seller - buyer- and agent to sign the contract.... if you begin in your state...you willl find support will follow you efforts.



As for PV...killing a perfectly healthy horse for personal gain is simply the worst possible abuse of stewardship. He and the other 31 can live with their shame (if they have any) outside the industry...there is no place for them in the USEF. Shame on those who still harbor sympathies for his actions.....lie with the dog and expect fleas.

RNB
Jul. 5, 2006, 11:10 AM
Well said TWF, well said!!!

Snowbird
Jul. 5, 2006, 09:18 PM
caught in her/his own trap.

Mynameisnanho
Jul. 5, 2006, 11:09 PM
What's the guy's name? And what does any of that have to do with Paul Valliere?

TWF
Jul. 5, 2006, 11:41 PM
"I'll petition every state in the union to prevent whoever that person may be from ever getting a paper route."


Hmmm?
If you want to be part of the solution..please check out the concerns you are ranting against.

Snowbird
Jul. 5, 2006, 11:55 PM
A convicted felon is a convicted felon who prepetrated a fraud using horses. Whether it was to kill a healthy horse in a way to defraud the Insurance Company or to steal a pony to defraud a little girl is really not different than Joe Plemmons admitting that he shot Helen Brach twice in the head because she wasn't dead yet and she was going to turn them in for crooked horse sales. They will take advantage of thrs in other ways if necessary because they don't believe other peoples rights are as important as their pleasures. :no: :no: :no: They can't belong to the Federation.

Lavender Menace
Jul. 6, 2006, 12:07 AM
Okay, I've read some of this thread and some of the supporting articles and other info available online. I can't wade through all 165 (?) pages right now, however. What is the status of this issue now, in July 2006? Did the petition do any good? Was Valliere reinstated or is it still being debated?

Snowbird
Jul. 6, 2006, 06:08 PM
We have proposed Rule Changes based on the evidence that "Convicted Felons" should not be members of the Federation. It means they cannot show, their horses cannot show. Most of us feel that is suitable penalty for the abuse of horses to commit fraud.

We need you all to go in and comment on all the proposed rule changes so that the Federation knows the Members support the concept. If those same 7000 people do not comment on those rule changes then the Petition will have lost creditability. :yes:

Janet
Jul. 6, 2006, 06:12 PM
Okay, I've read some of this thread and some of the supporting articles and other info available online. I can't wade through all 165 (?) pages right now, however. What is the status of this issue now, in July 2006? Did the petition do any good? Was Valliere reinstated or is it still being debated? He is still on the "suspended persons" list.

RNB
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:14 PM
Just want to remind everyone to comment on the USEF rule change proposals!

RNB
Jul. 23, 2006, 11:48 PM
Since everyone is inside trying to beat the heat perhaps it would be a good time to check out all the rule change proposals on the USEF web site. Your opinion counts!! :yes:

pony4me
Nov. 26, 2006, 09:26 PM
Bumping this up, and may I please direct your attention to the Avery's Place Auction thread over on Off Course.

~ Adult Pony Riders' Clique ~

RNB
Dec. 29, 2006, 07:44 PM
I was thinking the same thing FHC. Do they vote on these proposals at the annual convention?

Janet
Dec. 29, 2006, 10:31 PM
Several of them have committee action dated TODAY.

For instance

Breeds/Disciplines 1:No Action
Legal Review 1:No Action
USHJA 1:Disapproved-12/7/2006
National Affiliates Working Group 1:Disapproved-12/28/2006

Ravencrest_Camp
Dec. 29, 2006, 10:35 PM
We have proposed Rule Changes based on the evidence that "Convicted Felons" should not be members of the Federation. It means they cannot show, their horses cannot show. Most of us feel that is suitable penalty for the abuse of horses to commit fraud.

We need you all to go in and comment on all the proposed rule changes so that the Federation knows the Members support the concept. If those same 7000 people do not comment on those rule changes then the Petition will have lost creditability. :yes:

What if I am convicted of auto theft or tax evasion, or some other such felony that doesnt involve horses or children, can I still be part of the Federation?

Janet
Dec. 29, 2006, 10:39 PM
You might want to check out THIS rule change proposal
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/588-06.pdf
Submitted by John Long, and APPROVED by the two committees that have rejected most of the other related proposals.



GR703 Penalties. [Chapter 7. Violations and Penalties] Change to read:
1. If found guilty, the accused will be subject to such penalty as the Hearing Committee may determine, including but not limited to:
f. EXPULSION or SUSPENSION from membership in the Federation. If the hearing committee finds an individual to have been convicted in a court of law of any crime related to the death of a horse, the hearing committee may, in its sole discretion, expel the member or deny membership to a nonmember for life.

Janet
Dec. 29, 2006, 10:49 PM
What if I am convicted of auto theft or tax evasion, or some other such felony that doesnt involve horses or children, can I still be part of the Federation?

Read the rule change proposals- The wording is like this
"felony crime involving horses (including but not limited to animal cruelty, fraud, abuse, etc.)."

RNB
Dec. 29, 2006, 10:53 PM
What if I am convicted of auto theft or tax evasion, or some other such felony that doesnt involve horses or children, can I still be part of the Federation?

You need to READ the proposals....it states felons of horse related crimes.

RNB
Dec. 29, 2006, 10:58 PM
You might want to check out THIS rule change proposal
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/588-06.pdf
Submitted by John Long, and APPROVED by the two committees that have rejected most of the other related proposals.

Janet....don't know about you but I was thrilled to see this when it was originally posted!!! Keeping my fingers crossed. Perhaps the little people are being heard after all!!! Tho I'm not happy with the other proposals votes regarding fraud, cruelty, etc.......

vanheimrhorses
Dec. 30, 2006, 01:02 AM
i have said it again and again we need to be licensed like Real Estate agents and we need an ethics board and a code of ethics and you need to be banned if you violate the ethics. MY God no other business allows liars theives killers and cheats to continue to have a license and do business, lawyers get sanctioned, realtors get banned, better business bereau takes care of others, why not the horse world? the racing industry even has licenses for trainers, with all the expense of the hunter jumper industry and all of the new fees they can think up each year to charge at shows they could certainly afford to set up a real organization with licensed trainers and instructors and ban the bad guys. Wow we could even have awards like realtors do for top producers and such..... imagine that!! so that people could judge trainers on their recorded ethical dealings with the public. Until "we" make a change the hunter jumper world will continue to have a shady shide for criminals to do their so called horse dealings in and take advantage of good people and new people coming into the sport who are blinded by flash and money and what looks like big time to them and allow trainers control and ability to make wrong decisions without their input and knowledge. With billions of dollars being spent in this sport why can't we accomplish something so simple. I am sure the REal trainers are not afraid of this and the bad trainers who gives a #####
what they think, they will squabble but they need to be eliminated. The bad egg always raises the biggest fuss. Lets work on forming a horseman's association that licenses hunter jumper and dressage trainers and requires them to be licensed to coach at shows and or be allowed on show grounds. That would be the first and best step to cleaning up the problem.

War Admiral
Dec. 30, 2006, 08:55 AM
So, how does everyone feel about Mr. Long's rule change proposal??

I could get behind that...

Janet
Dec. 30, 2006, 09:37 AM
I think it is a definite step in the right direction.

It adds " expel the member or deny membership to a nonmember for life." as a possible punishment by the Hearing Committee- which wasn't there before.

And it makes "convicted in a court of law of any crime related to the death of a horse," sufficient- without needing a violation of USEF rules.

I would like to see it extended to horse related "fraud and abuse", but definitely a step in the right direction.

Weatherford
Dec. 30, 2006, 03:19 PM
I would like to see it extended to horse related "fraud and abuse", but definitely a step in the right direction.

Might have to spend too much time meeting - too many instances of fraud and abuse amongst members ....and the Fed might just lose a few people... oh dear... ;)

I agree, Long's proposal IS a step in the right direction! :yes:

equusrocks
Dec. 30, 2006, 03:30 PM
If you aren't a member of the USEF, will writing still help?? :confused:

RNB
Dec. 30, 2006, 06:40 PM
Might have to spend too much time meeting - too many instances of fraud and abuse amongst members ....and the Fed might just lose a few people... oh dear... ;)

I agree, Long's proposal IS a step in the right direction! :yes:

Amen.....I'm thrilled that Long stepped up to the plate! And hope it will eventually include other horse related crimes. The USEF should be more concerned with all the GOOD horse people who have left the show circuit because of the bad ones. I know in my case, of the dozens of original victims who were members, only 5 remain that I am aware of. If the USEF wants to look at this from a $$$ stand point then they have lost big!!!!

Like the old saying.....one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch....or in the horse world...one bad horse person can run off dozens of good ones!!

17hTBmare
Dec. 30, 2006, 07:02 PM
Didn't I just see in Hildegard Frostbite that Paul has 400 letters supporting his reinstatement, and is working with a DC law firm? 400 letters for him, 7,500 signatures for us...hmmm

War Admiral
Jan. 7, 2007, 12:53 PM
Bumping this up so that people can see John Long's rule change proposal.

http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/588-06.pdf

I can live with this if y'all can.

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2007, 05:22 PM
I think War Admiral that we can safely say that the campaign was not a waste of time or energy and it did get attention. I'm not sure that it should be up to the Hearing Committee to determine the particular punishment. It seems to me a conviction in a public court of law should be the determining factor. :yes:

Membership in the Federation is not a matter of Civil Rights. I believe there are more serious civil rights lost by any convicted felon than Membership in a Competition Federation.

War Admiral
Jan. 7, 2007, 08:14 PM
I think War Admiral that we can safely say that the campaign was not a waste of time or energy and it did get attention.

Well, at least it proves they are listening. It's hard to say at this point whether this counterproposal is a token gesture or not... We'll have to wait and see what happens when it comes into play. But if NOTHING else, having life suspensions right there in the rule book may work as a deterrent for future felons (you KNOW there will be plenty!).


I'm not sure that it should be up to the Hearing Committee to determine the particular punishment. It seems to me a conviction in a public court of law should be the determining factor. :yes:

And I agree with you 100%, but realistically it is going to take a LONG time for certain of the USEF mucky-mucks to acknowledge that being the officially government sanctioned NGB nowadays makes USEF no longer a private party where they can invite whomsoever they please, irrespective of the circumstances. ;)

All we can do is keep chipping away and hope we can get the message across eventually.

Thanks to everyone for your support. If it hadn't been for all y'all, quite honestly I don't think we could have got this far!! :yes:

ss3777
Jan. 7, 2007, 09:14 PM
Woohoo for the "little folk"

Thanks WA!!!

RNB
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:39 PM
War Admiral and Snowy......I'll take this over nothing!!! And I will be more than happy to submit changes again, how 'bout you? ;)

War Admiral
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:51 PM
War Admiral and Snowy......I'll take this over nothing!!! And I will be more than happy to submit changes again, how 'bout you? ;)

OK, unless any of y'all have any objections, it's official - No Reinstatement is going to support the John Long proposal. :yes:

Speak now if you have any comments, please!!!

...And yeah, RNB, I'm sure we'll think of ways to keep them entertained. Possibly sooner than they think. ;)

Snowbird
Jan. 7, 2007, 11:51 PM
We'll take what we can get and come back next year with a rewrite. If we don't get it done we'll make them remember the scams that have been worked on this sport.:yes:

RNB
Jan. 8, 2007, 12:06 AM
I hope to have more ammo next time around and I will be honored to work with you both again!!!! Like the old saying...."the squeaky wheel gets oiled first"!!! I think we're pretty loud squeakers and they're starting to hear us!!! :lol:

SGray
Jan. 11, 2007, 03:26 PM
a short stride is better than a refusal

Janet
Jan. 11, 2007, 03:30 PM
So, are you officially withdrawing the other proposals?